Rob: Hello.
And welcome back to Subspace Radio.
There is a new episode of Star Trek out there in the ether, and we here at
Subspace Radio are back here to indeed reflect on that ether Star Trekkiness.
I am Rob and I am joined as always by the wonderful Kevin.
How are you?
Kevin: Hello!
I'm excellent because there's new Star Trek in my life.
Rob: What more do you need?
Kevin: Happy Star Trek Day Eve, Rob.
As we record this, it is the eve of Star Trek Day.
And so we're all gonna go to sleep and wake up in the morning to some
YouTube viewing of Star Trek news.
Rob: On all Star Trek Eves, do you open one of your Star Trek
presents before the night before?
Kevin: Well, it's funny you should say that.
I didn't plan to talk about this, but I did get a parcel in the mail today
and it is my Captain Janeway Star Trek: Voyager coffee mug replica,
which I got for backing the Star Trek Voyager documentary, To The Journey.
It's not full of anything at the moment, but uh, there you go.
Rob: Oh look, listeners, if this was a visual medium, you'd
be just as excited as I am.
It looks absolutely beautiful.
I don't know about this documentary.
I'm a huge fan of the Deep Space, Nine documentary that
they did, What We Leave Behind.
Kevin: Yes.
It is the same production team that is now doing a Star Trek: Voyager documentary.
Rob: Excellent.
Well, I wish I could have funded that, cuz that one on
Deep Space Nine was just magic.
Kevin: Yeah.
I'll lend you my mug sometime.
Rob: Um, but yes.
We're here to talk about episode two of season three of Lower
Decks, "The Least Dangerous Game".
Kevin: A pretty typical A plot, B plot structure.
And, the A plot is basically paying off the end of the previous episode where
Ransom is put in charge of the fate of Beckett Mariner's future on the ship.
Rob: Very much so.
Kevin: Her ability to follow orders is tested to the absolute limits, to
the point where she's diving off of a space elevator— I'm sorry, orbital lift.
The movie references just keep coming.
I'll be surprised when we get an episode without a movie tie-in at this point.
Rob: Yeah.
Is it a case of going, do we want one where they don't
have to rely on that or, yeah.
Kevin: The species on the planet surface was another of these pleasure-obsessed
races, which we visited one last week with Prime Factors in Voyager.
Rob: That's something we could bring up as a topic later on: sex within Star Trek.
Because sex within Star Trek is a very interesting topic
that I would love to explore.
Whether they do it right, whether they do it wrong.
Some episodes you go, this is a very weird perception of what sex is.
Kevin: Yes.
I am gonna call that a tease for a future episode if you'll pardon the expression
Rob: I think that is the only word we could use to describe an
episode about sex in Star Trek.
but yeah, they were quite muted compared to, well, Billups got some very sexy
forwards from people from his planet.
He had the two very sexy, you know, the man and the woman on his bed.
And he there trying to get himself ready to become the king, so this
one where they're just talking about navels, and light pecking on the cheek,
I'm there going, ah, that's nowhere near as raunchy as they've got before.
Kevin: Indeed.
But I think the main part of the episode that peaked our interest this week was
watching Boimler and team on the ship, inspired by a Klingon Dungeons & Dragons
game, choosing to embrace answering yes to every opportunity that life throws
at you, which ends up with Boimler being hunted in the hallways of Cerritos.
Rob: Look, the wonderful writing of Brad Boimler as a character and the incredible
vocal performance of Jack Quaid.
What he has done with Boimler is amazing.
There are two screams that will always echo in my mind.
There is the Wilhelm scream, which everyone uses in most movies.
And Jack Quaid has an incredible scream.
His Boimler scream is amazing.
Every time I hear it, it brings me so much joy.
His scream is the stuff of legend.
It is so funny.
And he has so many different variations of it.
He has the short, sharp scream.
He has the long continuing one when he is running away.
And it was an episode where the hero of this episode was the
screaming work of Jack Quaid.
Kevin: Yeah, you could imagine this episode, the kernel of the idea is
what excuse would maximize the amount of screaming Boimler in an episode.
Rob: It's always good to get Boimler stepping out of his comfort where,
you know, he is so set in his ways.
It's very much that traditional Star Trekky, Starfleet type of a character.
So to have him, on the Titan at the start of season two, and he's just
not coping at all with all this adventure and to have him being hunted
down by a warrior species that looks very much like a rejected character
from the Clone Wars animated series.
Kevin: K'Ranch, who loves Captain Freeman's mimosas, was the biggest
laugh that I had in the episode.
Rob: "Thank you so much for the mimosas."
Kevin: It has been revealed that the name K'Ranch comes from ketchup and ranch.
Rob: Of course it does.
Kevin: Any other highlights for this episode before we…
dive into our theme
Rob: Oh, please.
You mentioned it such in passing and it would be devoid of me as a Star Trek:
Deep Space Nine fan to not mention the incredible return cameo of Martok himself.
Kevin: How could I leave that out?
Rob: Oh, I think you were doing that on purpose!
Good god, it was great to have Martok back, and just how much relish in
delivering those incredible lines.
Kevin: He's still got it.
Rob: Boimler just rolls and goes I'm gonna be risky and then right at the end going,
ah, you immediately get killed with your own arm and you don't go to Sto'Vo'Kor
because you are killed by your own hand.
And I love Boimler at the start, he's got his cosplay Klingon head piece on.
Kevin: They all do They all have different Klingon blades and yeah, you get the sense
they bought the set and all the merch…
Rob: Yeah, so that was an incredible highlight for me.
Oh, and also I did like the weird justification at the end that we're
not sure what type of presence is ruling this pleasure planet.
It could be a volcano.
It could be a baby.
It could be a sentient computer.
And it was all three.
And of course, yeah, just ripping off your shirt and they all go,
oh, you are very wise, Starfleet.
I still can't pick that that's Jerry O'Connell.
Kevin: Oh, really?
No, he is unrecognizable.
Rob: It's been a while since I've watched Sliders.
But I'm there going, I can't pick…
Kevin: No.
I see him in behind the scenes stuff all the time and go, yes, of course.
You're Jerry O'Connell.
But there's something about, I don't know if his voice is a type that isn't
recognizable or if he is doing something with his voice in this role, that makes
him not sound like Jerry O'Connell, but he's, he's, awesome as the character.
Rob: I love that justification that there are some points where being that
vacuous, and being that obsessed with your body, can actually save the day.
I found that quite funny.
As a nerd who doesn't take care of his body or anything like
that, I went, okay you know what?
I'll give it credit.
Kevin: All silly, and delightful for it.
Rob: It's always good to have an animated, impalement.
We haven't had that for a long time.
Kevin: Not since uh, Wesley Crusher in an early Q episode, I think.
Rob: Also, I did like, um, the various little scenes with Boimler
trying all the different things.
So we got the, the futuristic squash game that I haven't seen since Deep Space Nine.
Kevin: Springball.
Rob: Springball!
Kevin: Then the Bajoran dirge choir with Shaxs, offscreen the figure
painting class for creepy Lars, uh who, Boimler says afterwards,
I'm not afraid of Lars anymore.
Rob: So that's a win?
Kevin: Yeah
Rob: So yeah.
So yeah, very cute episode.
Kevin: I think, at the risk of taking an episode of Lower Decks too
seriously, we have seized on the hunting culture of K'Ranch in this episode.
And it occurred to me, we've seen several versions of that trope,
of the hunter race in the past.
And so let's compare notes on what we remember of hunter races past and what
that has brought us in the various incarnations of Trek over the years.
Rob: Do you have Deep Space Nine?
Kevin: I do have Deep
Rob: Huh Oh, you've gone for my show.
Go.
You can go first.
I didn't use any Deep Space Nine.
Kevin: You didn't use any Deep Space Nine?
Rob: No, I'm trying to, I'm trying to push myself, Kevin.
Kevin: Well done.
Well done.
Effort acknowledged.
Rob: You, inspire me.
Kevin: Deep Space Nine season one, episode six, Captive Pursuit, in
which Tosk comes through the wormhole and is befriended by O'Brien.
Tosk introduces himself as just Tosk and O'Brien asks him, is
that your name or your species?
And he says Tosk.
And O'Brien sets about giving Tosk a tour of Deep Space Nine and this side of
the wormhole, but it's very mysterious.
Whenever Tosk gets a moment to himself, he starts asking the computer questions
about where the weapons lockers are.
And then eventually another ship comes through the wormhole and it is full
of hunters, on the hunt for Tosk.
This is their occupation as a species.
They have bred Tosks and sent them out for hunts and then they
chase them across the galaxy.
That's what they do.
Of course, by this point, O'Brien has developed a fondness for his new
friend Tosk and manages a prison break to uh, free Tosk, return
him to his ship, and enable him to lead the hunters on a fresh chase.
Tosk asks O'Brien, you would make a good Tosk have you ever
considered becoming a Tosk?
And O'Brien says well, I have a wife and daughter who would probably have something
to say about that, and so he stays behind.
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: The high point of the episode is when Odo says I'll go
and track down O'Brien, and Sisko says, there's no rush, Constable.
Odo does a double take and then a slow walk to the turbo lift.
Rob: That's right.
Kevin: It is the moment I fell in love with Odo as a character, right
here in episode six of the season.
Rob: As I've said before, you know, René Auberjonois was one of my favorite actors,
before coming into Deep Space Nine.
So that's why I was drawn to it.
I went, oh my god; it's the guy from Benson?
His comedy and his drama chops are just second to none.
I do remember this one, vaguely.
It is very much a early episode of Star Trek Deep Nine, where it's
still trying to find its feet.
But the character design and the prosthetic work for the Tosk is great.
Kevin: Tosk is great.
Michael Westmore says the design was based on a photo of an alligator
that he saw in the Smithsonian.
And it's a full covered head.
Yeah, a work of art for sure.
Rob: Very much so.
And when we see prosthetic work like that on any Star Trek, it's always a welcome
change cuz there is that cliché gimmick of people just going, ah, they just put
a weird change to the nose or some, some old uh, rice bubbles on their foreheads.
Kevin: The story of this episode was inspired by the short story,
the most dangerous game, which is referenced in this week's title in
lower decks, The Least Dangerous Game.
The Most Dangerous Game, I have learned in researching this, is reputed to
be the most popular short story ever written in the English language.
And it's about a big game hunter who falls overboard, is washed
ashore on an island, and is then hunted by a Russian aristocrat.
So the hunter becomes the hunted, that trope, is from this short story
that has been retrod and revisited and reimagined in many forms over the
years, including Captive Pursuit, here in Deep Space Nine's first season.
Rob: Yeah.
That's a great example of a race bred for servitude or to be chased.
Kevin: And it is a recurring motif of our heroes, or the Starfleet crew take pity,
or sympathize with the hunted creature.
Though created or bred for this purpose, it's a sentient being,
should not be— We are going to rescue it from this situation, despite
our rules of non interference.
Rob: Colm Meaney is such an incredible actor, and has such an incredible body
of work outside of his Star Trek time.
He's like a legitimate actor, who's done some incredible, real serious drama stuff.
And quite a lot of the cast of Deep Space Nine have got that…
Kevin: That Pedigree, yeah.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: I think for me, this is the establishing episode for
O'Brien on Deep Space Nine.
And it's the first time an entire story is crafted around him as the hero.
He's given more to do in this one episode than in all of his appearances
in The Next generation put together.
The other thing that makes this episode really work is the actor playing Tosk.
He has got that, like deer in headlights, frightened creature thing
going, but he's also, he's charming.
He has a personality, he has a sense of humor.
And you fall in love with this hunted creature along with O'Brien.
Rob: Definitely.
And it always takes a special type of actor to exude so much charisma
and so much through layers of that, especially that amount of prosthetic.
You know, one of the greatest actors behind prosthetic performances is
the late, great Roddy McDowall.
His work with the full body cast of Planet of the Apes is legendary.
And how you exaggerate your performance to go through the prosthetics, but still
come across as subtle underneath all that.
And so it takes a quality actor to be able to achieve that.
Kevin: Yeah.
I think that's all there is to say about Captive Pursuit.
The interesting thing for me for this episode is it is
very much focused on the prey.
The hunters are very surface level.
Like they have an interesting costume and interesting look, but you don't learn
much about them, other than we hunt.
We are here to hunt.
Don't get in the way of our hunt.
Rob: So, well I'll skip to a species that is all about the hunt, and very
much a species that has a code and rules of engagement that they follow.
And and this comes from the Voyager era.
They were trying to find their way for what was going to be
their big, reoccurring bad.
They try to set up the Kazon as their big threat at the start,
and that doesn't really work.
Then they introduce the ones who have the disease.
They are the…
Kevin: The Vidiians.
Rob: Quite gruesome.
And then they bring in later on, quite late into the run of things, the Hirogin.
Kevin: The Hirogin.
Season four's big bad.
Rob: Season four's big bad that they tried to do, and then they just
went, ah, let's just do the Borg.
C'mon.
We tried, we tried our best Um, but the Hirogin, what I really
liked about them, as opposed to the previous ones, these guys had a really
solid, structured culture, with the alphas and the betas, and if the
alpha's killed the beta takes over.
And their rules and their standards was something that they were brought
up in their… not as many episodes as I think they wanted to do.
They kind of went, yeah, let's try this.
And then they gave up and went, The Borg's just there.
Kevin: We've already seen them.
Seven of Nine is on the ship.
Rob: Seven of Nine's on the ship.
Let's just go back to the Borg.
Kevin: The uh, Hirogin were on my list as well.
So we can talk a lot about the Hirogin, because I, I made some notes.
Rob: And what were your notes on the Hiro-gin?
Kevin: They, what's interesting to me is they appeared in a trilogy of
episodes in the middle of season four.
Introduced very mysteriously in Message in a Bottle where they are,
the users or owners of a communications network that Voyager discovers.
And they come over on the screen and say, stop using our phone.
And that's pretty much all you see of them.
So they're very mysterious.
And in the very next episode, we get to meet them, and meet their culture, and
learn that they are hunters and they are excited to capture Tuvok and Seven and
make them their trophies of their hunt.
And in that episode, the communications network is damaged and Voyager can
no longer trade messages with the Federation in the alpha quadrant.
So that second episode was called Hunters.
The very next episode, entitled Prey, involves Species 8472, and
a Hirogin hunting a lone member of Species 8472 across the Delta quadrant
and we get to learn even more.
I think I agree with you that they lost interest in the Hirogin, and I
as an audience member kind of lost interest in the Hirogin as well.
So I wasn't that devastated to see them go.
Rob: Plus we had The Borg.
Right there.
The Borg…
Kevin: …we had The Borg.
But I appreciate that, in the format of Voyager, Voyager is making
its way home and is cutting the most efficient path towards the
alpha quadrant that it can find.
So it would make sense that a species would come into, like
they would enter their influence, have a few stories related to them
and then pass beyond their space.
Like the Hirogin is the only time they mostly committed to that format
of, we're gonna learn a lot about an interesting species over the course of
several episodes in short succession, and then we'll leave them behind, mostly.
Rob: They did set themselves up as the, Hirogin were the species that would
travel great distances so they were spreading themselves out throughout
the quadrant so that they could
Kevin: This is where my problems with the Hirogin start, because I think
they said we want a hunter species.
And maybe they had already developed that communications network story
to, connect with the alpha quadrant.
But it felt like, okay, this is a space-faring race,
and all they do is hunt.
That is their entire culture.
And so who builds the ships?
Where do they mine materials from, or make food?
Or like just how is a race or a culture like this sustained?
And so they have to scaffold it with so many seemingly impossible ideas.
The a hundred thousand year old communications network that they have
that they have commandeered, that lets them speak across great distances is one.
They talk about the fact that the culture used to be a more traditional
culture, and then they suddenly became obsessed with hunting and
it took over their entire culture.
And it is in a later episode that they are ironically described as
hunting themselves into extinction by being the hunters too much.
So all of that, it all feels a little tenuous to me.
Like, if you look beyond the surface, it just does not make sense that these
people would have well maintained ships that are a match for Voyager.
And apparently they hunt in twos or small groups that run these big
ships, but they're in communication across thousands of light years.
It all, yeah, it does not bear up to close scrutiny, which is why I think
they couldn't go very far with it.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: And the Hirogin are almost always the B plot of
every episode that they're in.
There's always something else supporting them in the episode.
There's the communications array.
There is the species 8472.
Later on, there's a two-part episode called The Killing Game, where the
Hirogin have taken over Voyager's holodeck system to try to stop hunting
real creatures, and instead we're gonna hunt the crew of the Voyager again and
again, and bring them back to life.
And they're dressed up as Nazis.
So like, Nazi Hirogin.
Like a hunter species was not interesting enough; we had to dress them up as Nazis
to tell an interesting story about them.
I just get that sense that there was just not enough there.
Rob: Yeah, it is the last vestige of argument to pull the Nazi quote.
And it is the last vestige of a writing experience to go let's make 'em all Nazis.
But yeah, it does seem to me that the Hirogin especially, there's so
much focus put on the small details.
There's so much to go on with how they hunt and the rituals they go through,
like all this minute detail about hunting in twos, and the alpha and
the beta, and paint on their face, and all these type of tropes they have.
But when look, like you said, the broader picture, how the whole species operates,
there's not as much connection there.
So that's why it runs outta steam.
Where those species that do stick around and are always brought back.
And when in doubt, pull out The Borg or pull out the Klingons
or pull out the Romulans.
They've got all that minute detail there, but also the broader spectrum
and how you understand that.
The Cardassians as well.
The Bajorans.
They brought both spectrums.
So it's, there's that longevity there.
Where they spent so much time with Hirogin on the small details
of their hunt and their ritual.
Kevin: I appreciate those details.
Like those first couple of episodes, rewatching them today, I'm still
leaning in because the level of production value brought to a strange
new civilization is really, I'm gonna say admirable, but interesting as well.
It's fascinating.
Yeah, it's all there.
They cast giant actors, so that our cast are looking up at them.
It's all super interesting.
Rob: And especially because if you look at sci-fi, and when it comes to hunter/prey
type setup, your go-to for most people in pop culture is the Predator series.
And a lot of those films get caught up in their own ethos, but a lot
of the films get more focused in on the slasher element of movies.
But when you look at it, they haven't really developed the actual culture of it.
So that was exciting to watch the Hirogin, going well this isn't
just a standard hunter race.
They have all this really new, unique approach to their culture
that was really exciting in those first couple of episodes.
They just needed to work on the broader spectrum of it to really
make them have a bit of longevity.
Kevin: It's interesting to me that unlike many of the other hunters that
we see in Star Trek over the years, the Hirogin, they aren't they aren't playing
into that trope of like sport hunters.
You don't get the sense that they're rich people who on their weekends
are hunting some subservient race.
It has fully enveloped their entire culture.
And it is more of a evolved pack animal or to, play into that alpha beta trope,
the wolf pack hunting thing, even though the science around that has been
debunked, like in nature wolves do not organize themselves with alphas and
betas; nevertheless, interesting idea to explore in science fiction as a pattern.
It does separate them very much.
You get the sense that they hunt not because it's fun, they
hunt because it's who they are.
Rob: Yeah exactly.
And that's all they know.
I didn't expect us to have as dynamic a conversation, but
of course we were come on.
Who were we kidding?
So what did you have next on the hunter/prey roulette table?
Kevin: I have a dark mirror to my earlier Deep Space Nine episode,
which was Captive Pursuit.
And this is Enterprise season one, episode 18, Rogue Planet.
Rob: Oh I have seen very little of Enterprise.
Um I know, know the song…
Kevin: Well don't start here is my advice.
This is a bad version of Captive Pursuit, in which Archer and the
crew of the Enterprise happen upon a rogue planet, according to the title.
So it's a planet that is escaped its sun.
So it is always nighttime, but is still habitable because there's volcanic
activity that keeps the place warm.
Rob: Does T'Pol have a problem with her emotions during this episode?
Kevin: She does not.
She has a problem with the hunting.
She finds it very distasteful.
Rob: Right.
Well, there you go.
Well done, T'Pol.
Kevin: They discover that there is a group of hunters that visit this
planet frequently in order to hunt the native species, which they claim is
non sentient, but which the crew of the Enterprise discover is anything but.
The crew of the Enterprise, decide to join a hunt in order
to learn about this species.
Reed promises he will not kill anything, but tongue-in-cheek in the line reading,
where you get the sense he would very much like to have an excuse to kill something.
But on the way, Archer spots a scantily clad, blonde woman in the jungle,
Rob: Awesome.
As you do.
Kevin: who speaks to him in a deadpan voice to say, Archer, we need your help.
And he cannot quite place her, but he is sure he has seen her before.
Long story short, this is a telepathic species that is able to tap into your
deepest, most repressed childhood memories and bring about a sympathetic image in
order to distract you from hunting them.
The hunters refuse to be dissuaded from their hunt, so the crew of the
Enterprise figures out how to arm this race with a compound that will mask
their signatures from their sensors.
The hunters are foiled, and the end of the episode.
is extremely anti-climatic undramatic, and the main reason in my mind is what works
so strongly for Tosk, a strong performance of a charismatic character that you fall
in love with, is completely absent here.
I don't know if it's the director or if it was in the script, but this
woman who plays this vision that Archer has in the muck of the swamp, she
plays it so deadpan, so disconnected.
I think it's meant to be ethereal, but it comes off as off putting so that
you cannot understand what has him so fascinated by this woman, other than we
are told again and again, that he is.
So it's all tell, no show.
Rob: So if we're told, then it, must be true.
Kevin: Absolutely.
The other thing that is different from Captive Pursuit, is most of
the time is spent with the hunters who are clearly unsympathetic.
They are gross dudes who can't wait to kill something because
they love killing things.
And they sit around the campfire drinking, and going, oh, can't
wait to kill that thing tomorrow.
And it is just super on the nose.
I think it's the weakest episode in the first season of Enterprise.
Rob: Right.
Well, there you go.
Sort of like more of a generic brush strokes, as opposed to
actual development of any real, contrasting characters or cultures.
Yeah.
Kevin: You got something fun to end us with?
Rob: I do, it's one of my, one of the few things I do like about the
show that doesn't really know what it is, but it tries every season.
Let's go to Discovery and—
Kevin: Oooh, Discovery!
How exciting!
Rob: And I think this is, in many ways, one of the most defined and beautifully
represented versions of a prey species.
Brought to life in a, regular lead character, every week.
We look at Saru's wonderful species.
Kevin: Of course, why didn't I think of Saru!
Rob: The great Doug Jones.
How could you not think of him?
He's been in Pan's Labyrinth.
He's been in Hocus Pocus.
And now he is of course in Star Trek Discovery.
So yes, coming from a culture where there are two species.
The hunters, the Ba'ul, and of course his race are, Kevin, the…?
Kevin: The Kelpiens.
Rob: The Kelpiens And this was a fascinating creation that,
and it was a slow burn as well.
They took their time developing it.
Obviously the big thing that they sold in the first episode
is that, his species are prey.
And so he has those instincts when there's danger.
He flares up at the back of his neck.
And, of course, in season two, we actually go to his home planet
Kevin: The planet Kaminar.
Rob: Kaminar, and we find out how oppressed and how stunted in evolution
their race are and how much they have not evolved to what their true purpose is.
Kevin: They grow to a certain age and then they're expected to walk down to the
beach and be transported away to be eaten.
Rob: Yes.
And so at that certain age, they're meant to be hitting their
version in many ways of puberty.
And we find out Saru was getting to that point and he goes past and he goes beyond
and finds out the potential he has.
The strength.
The defense systems he has in his body.
This is more of a case of as opposed to a race who are prey, this is a race whose
natural evolution, like I talked about, has been oppressed point where they are.
They have become to believe that they are nothing, but, subservient.
Kevin: Yes, well talk about the hunter become the hunted.
What we learn is that the Kelpiens used to hunt the Ba'ul and nearly hunted them to
extinction but somehow the Ba'ul developed technology to oppress the Kelpiens.
Rob: It's one of the few fascinating things that I really loved
about Discovery, and it showed you can focus on other things
other than just Michael Burnham.
Kevin: I got so excited when we first got to see the Ba'ul in the oily, black flesh.
Rob: Yes that's right.
Yeah.
They…
Kevin: …is I believe an called The Sound of Thunder, and we go
on their ship and there's a black pool in the middle of the room.
And then the Ba'ul kind of materializes outta that black pool.
And I got so excited because I was sure this was the same race as
Armus, the oily, black slick creature that killed Tasha Yar, and poisoned
the next generation for Rob Lloyd.
Rob: Yes, it did.
And he's the butt of all jokes in Lower Decks.
Kevin: I was so disappointed when the connection was not there.
I, in my heart of hearts, like my head cannon is that yes, they are the same
race and I'm waiting to be proven wrong.
So far, so good.
But uh, yeah, to me it was, exactly as all modern Trek has done, they've
taken things from the past and refreshed them with modern production values.
This to me was exactly what Armus would've looked like.
If they'd had the budget and the technology at the time, it was an
actual, scary thing rather than an awkward wobbling man in a rubber suit.
Rob: Yeah.
For me, I couldn't help, but draw comparisons to my other love, Doctor Who.
There's a famous species in there called the Sontarans and they're short, potato
head like creatures who are all clones.
And they have a perpetual war throughout eons with a race called the Rutans.
And so we'd seen the Sontarans for about 10 years, and how they appeared,
but we'd never seen the Rutans.
They've only appeared in one episode of Doctor Who, and it was a really exciting
thing when you watch it and go, what could possibly be the one race against this
other race that they would fight for.
And so the Sontarans are very blocky, very warrior based, short, stocky, potato
head clones, and the Rutans are these almost jellyfish type green creatures.
And that makes you go, of course, hate something that is completely
the opposite of what you are.
That's why hate is horrible.
But with this as well, you see that big difference between both species that
they are, there's no similarities at all.
And they are both so unique in how their physicality is their structure.
Their design is a beautiful contradiction and juxtaposition
to see this is why they clash.
It's a nice balance.
They have nothing in common, but that's what makes them in
sync, which I really loved.
Kevin: Thinking of the hunting, this again, is a different form of hunting.
This is almost the hunting for food, not hunting for sport.
Rob: Yeah.
And like I said, it's more like oppression as opposed to the hunt, but there is
that element of the Kelpiens developing those prey defense mechanisms, like
how they know when dangers approaching.
Although they're not hunted, they resign themselves to the fact that they sacrifice
themselves to their higher powers.
Kevin: Apart from Lower Decks, which is great at taking a trope like this and
playing it for comedy, I'll be interested to see if and when the next hunter race
is brought to the screens of Star Trek.
Cuz I feel with the Hirogin in particular, that version of it, the hunter race
that that pursues its prey across the galaxy, they did that so fully and maybe
even found it a little bit hollow not as much potential as we thought was there.
So I suspect like they've done that.
We probably won't go back to that.
Anytime soon, but I'd be excited to be proven wrong.
Rob: Yeah look, that's what we always do, as Star Trek fans.
Come in going, they're never gonna do anything different,
cuz we've just seen it all.
Kevin: Yes.
They still manage to surprise us.
Rob: They do it.
That's why it's lasted nearly 60 years.
Kevin: Thanks, Rob, looking forward to next week.
More Star Trek!
Rob: Is great to be back on this weekly adventure of talking about it.
And we'd love you to get involved as well.
Don't we want the listeners to reach out, tell us what we should talk about.
Kevin: Absolutely we do.
If you wanna reach out and let us know what you think about these episodes,
or our choices, or something we missed in Star Trek history on one of these
themes, ping us @subspacedotfm on Twitter.
That's subspace D-O-T-F-M, and uh, we'll be very happy to hear
from you and maybe even read out your tweets on the next episode.
Rob: And look it's great to get back into this, Kevin.
I'm looking forward to episode three of lower decks and and see
where we'll be going off next.
Kevin: See you out there!