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Learn how to build a better sign
and prt shop from a few crusty

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sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

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Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

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workflow, growth, and more.

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Your listening to The Better Sign Shop
podcast with your hosts, Peter Kunis,

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Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.

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Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

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our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing
Grand Format Printer to the trade

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GCI is not your average print shop.

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They pride themselves on
providing you a fast stress-free

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experience when outsourcing.

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There are no excuses.

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Mindset means no matter the job.

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They'll have it done every time.

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No other vendor will go to the links
that GCI does to ensure you are

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a satisfied customer to hear more
about their approach to business.

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Hop back into the archives to episode nine
where the guys and I interview owner tj

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be act about top tier customer experience.

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If you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, mesh, core

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plast and more, TJ and his crew will
have your back For jobs, big or small.

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GCI does them all.

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Check them out@printgci.com.

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Hi guys.

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Welcome back to another edition of
the Better Science Shop podcast.

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I'm your host, Brian Gillespie.

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I'll be joined by my colleague
Peter Unis, the Science Shop,

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Yoda, in the actual episode.

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But we had a bit of technical
difficulties when we were originally

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recording this episode, but I just
wanted to come back with a quick intro

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and say thank you for being a listener,
and I really think you're gonna

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enjoy this episode with our special
guest, Dan Yoder of Sign Art Studio.

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Back to the episode.

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Alright guys, welcome back to the podcast.

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I've got a very special guest, Mr.

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Dan Yoder from uh, sign Art Studio.

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Dan, huge fan of your work, man.

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It is.

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I, I don't often curse on the podcast,
but it's fucking awesome, man.

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I love the work that you guys do.

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Was super excited when you reached
out and, you know, um, I, I asked to

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join us on the podcast for an episode.

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Uh, we've already had a
short chat previously.

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Um, uh, you know, I think we've,
we've got a great conversation

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lined up, but hey, super curious
to see where it takes us, but yeah,

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me too.

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Welcome on.

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Thank you.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you for having me.

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It's, uh, it's an honor.

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Uh, your guys', I stumbled
across your podcast.

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Somebody at the shop pointed it out and it
was, it like every episode I listened to.

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It was like kismet at the time.

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Like, we're going through the
same shit right now, you know?

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So that's great.

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I, uh, well, I felt the calling to, uh,
to reach out to you guys and, and have a

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conversation, so thanks for having me out.

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I appreciate it.

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Yeah, man.

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That's what, that's what we're all about.

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Like it to me, hey, like back in the old
days, you know, there was like industry

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forum and, and whatever, and, and like,
people weren't super nice on there, but

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it is just, it is, sometimes it's just
nice knowing that you're not alone and

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struggling with some of this stuff.

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E even if you don't have a solution for
some of the, the stuff that we face on a

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daily basis, it's, it's nice to hear that
other owners are struggling with the same

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thing.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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We, uh, I was just talking
about that this morning.

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You know, it's, uh, we're the hardest
on ourselves, that's for sure.

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And then you, you start talking to other
people in the industry or, you know,

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whether it's on a, a Facebook page or
to a forum or listening to on a podcast.

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Um.

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You know, you're like, Hey,
you're not alone in this.

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So, so yeah, it's cool.

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And it's, it's interesting, you
know, and I'm sure we'll get into

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it a little bit, but, you know, like
Letterheads is such an, an inclusive

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group of people wanting to share tips
and tricks and, um, and all that.

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But when you get into the, you know,
the bigger shops, it seems like that

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type of culture almost doesn't exist.

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Nobody wants

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to peel back the Yeah.

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Nobody wants to show behind the curtain.

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Uh, yep.

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Yep.

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So just because there's, there's
a fear of losing the secret sauce

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or whatever it is, but, right.

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Yeah.

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Uh, before we get too far into
the weeds, why don't you, Hey, for

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anybody who doesn't know, you know,
like, give us an intro, uh, to sign

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our studio and yourself, and, you
know, tell us about your background.

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What's, what's the story
of, of your journey?

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Well, thanks.

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Yeah.

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So, uh, my name's Dan Yoder.

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Um, we sign art Studio here.

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Uh, I've been.

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Been in business since 2005.

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But yeah, I, you know, always interested
in art, you know, and, you know,

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drawing like, uh, Metallica album
covers and stuff like that as a kid.

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And, um, so yeah, I, I
just had a passion for art.

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Um, I didn't know what way
that would materialize as I,

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you know, came into adulthood.

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But yeah, I got a job at a sign
shop when I was 19 years old.

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And, uh, vital Signs and
Verona, really great dudes.

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Um, and they were still doing
hand lettering, pin striping,

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airbrushing, um, you know, a bunch
of dimensional signs to gold leaf.

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Everything was cut out on a
bandsaw, you know, we didn't have

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a CNC router, no digital printer.

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Um, so I was fortunate to come up in a
shop like that, and I remember walking in.

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Like child wondering at like,
Holyoke, is this a, is this a thing?

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Like we can do this for a career.

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So yeah, I fell in love
with it right away at 19.

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Um, and then I got fired very quickly
after for being, you know, 19.

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And, and it was, it was well deserved.

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I remember, um, I was sitting, or I was
asked to coat out some boards and there

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was, there's a little bit of an art to
that, you know, we used MDO all the time,

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and so we coat out these boards and, you
know, you'd oil base and do it with a foam

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roller and, you know, you could roll the
bubbles out and get it like glass glass.

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And I remember Mark Kramer, um,
who worked there, he, he's like, go

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ahead and, and coat out these boards.

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And for some reason I took
him off the saw horse.

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I sat down on the ground with the
panel next to me and was rolling paint.

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I'd roll it off the board onto the floor,
from the floor, back onto the board,

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putting all the crap from the floor on.

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Can't do it.

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So, long story short, my tenure
didn't last long there, uh, in

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the beginning, but, uh, I did
come back, uh, I don't know, three

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or four months later, um, my Oh,

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okay.

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You said they, they were
willing to have you back then.

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That's

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good.

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So, yeah, then I stuck, I think, uh,
all in, I was there for six years.

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Um, went to letterhead, meets all
over the country, went to London for

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a letterhead meet, so, uh Oh, wow.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Big exposure to letterheads.

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And after my first meet, I mean, the
hooks were in big time, a hundred percent.

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So, yay.

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That's it in a nutshell.

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My, my background and how I arrived
in this industry, not by, uh.

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Wasn't intentional.

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I just happened.

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I happened to fall into
it like many others, I I,

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I'm not sure that there's anybody that
I've talked to that was intentional.

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Um, we just had a guest on James, um,
that grew up in his parents' sign shop,

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and that's all he ever wanted to do.

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But like outside of that, I, I've not met
too many people that were like, Hey, I, I

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was, unless they grew up in the business,
like they, you know, signage it is, it's,

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they don't teach you that at school.

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Like, pick a career day and
it's like, oh, hey, you can make

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a, a good living creating cool
stuff that people pay you for.

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Right.

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Um, and, and you help businesses
grow at the same time.

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It's, you know, you know, I,
and it wasn't, wasn't an option.

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It's funny you say that 'cause
it's been the same experience

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with anyone I've ever talked to,
um, other than we just hired, um.

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A technical designer for a
pre-production department.

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John Nere, he's, um, lives in Cape
Cod in Massachusetts, and turns out

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he actually went to trade school in
Boston to learn hand lettering, and he

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was one of the last classes Oh, wow.

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At this trade school.

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So he's the only exception to that, and
it seems like he eventually got into it.

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Um, so yeah.

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But yeah, most everybody I, I met, they
just randomly fell into it and, and the

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hooks got in just like the rest of us, so.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Hey, and once they're in,
there's no getting out.

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Exactly.

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I know.

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Walk me through how you
started sign Art Studio.

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Like what, you know, were you, was
that right on the hills of, of when

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you stopped working at Vital Signs or?

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Yes.

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Was there something in between there?

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Like, yeah, walk me through that.

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So.

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I got fired, got so, and it was like it
was the second time and the last time.

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Um, and we won't get, we won't get into
the circumstances of that, but you know,

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Mike, uh, Chamberlain, the former owner
of Vital Science, he's since retired,

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um, and then sold it to Mark Kramer.

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Both of those guys are my
mentors, really amazing people.

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Uh, but we're on great terms.

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We have been for a long time, so we
moved past, uh, that, that point in time.

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But, but yeah, I, I, you know, we got
actually my, my dad and I were gonna

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build custom hardwood furniture and
so we had kind of started, um, a side

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gig doing that, and then it turned
out we wanted to do it full time.

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So, um, but then that, you know,
while that was happening, so this

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was back in 2005 when I was 25 at
the time, you know, there wasn't

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any income from that in that moment.

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So that's when I started Syn Art Studio.

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At the time, actually, I got a job
offer from a local, um, semi dealer, a

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Peterbilt dealership, um, to basically
start the graphics department.

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So, you know, when they sell, when
they sell a truck, you know, you

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could get a whole custom, a whole
custom gi up on your vehicle.

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Um, and they offered me like a
$60,000 salary and I was like,

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holy at that time for me, that was,
you know, that was all Oh yeah.

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And, um, especially

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being young, it's, yeah, like somebody,
somebody throws more than a couple hundred

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dollars a week at you, you're like, holy.

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00:10:42,650 --> 00:10:43,245
Yep, yep.

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Exactly.

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00:10:44,235 --> 00:10:51,435
So I, uh, you know, it was, you know,
at the time, the, the girlfriend

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I was with at the time, she said,
you know, 'cause I'm like, I don't

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know what I, what do I wanna do?

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And she said, well, if you take that
job, will you always wonder what

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could have been or will you start.

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00:11:05,370 --> 00:11:08,010
A sign shop and always wonder
what could have been if you

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00:11:08,010 --> 00:11:09,510
would've take, taken that job.

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00:11:09,839 --> 00:11:13,500
So that was an easy, it was like,
you know, you so let's do it.

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00:11:13,530 --> 00:11:17,579
But yeah, then I, so I
started that in, in, in 2005.

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00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:19,860
Um, just a, a one man operation.

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00:11:19,860 --> 00:11:23,040
I think the first couple
months I just worked out of a

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00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:24,569
corner in my parents' garage.

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00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:29,939
Um, but yeah, I just hit the, hit
the streets and looked for signs that

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00:11:29,939 --> 00:11:35,280
either needed an update or businesses
that didn't have a sign to begin with.

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00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:43,020
And yeah, so a couple months after,
um, I moved into 150 square foot

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shop, uh, just right here in town,
no bathroom or anything like that.

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And I had a buddy of mine who
helped, helped help part-time.

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Um, but yeah, I was gonna sit on a stool
and hand carve and hand paint signs.

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And then somewhere it was probably 2000.

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Six into 2007, um, moved
into a, a bigger shop.

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00:12:08,070 --> 00:12:11,010
I think the workspace we had
was about 1500 square feet.

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And, um, got a, a job to design
and build a monument side for a

229
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,270
local, uh, office park development.

230
00:12:22,140 --> 00:12:24,825
And, and I had a blast designing it.

231
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:28,380
It wasn't anything that we'd really done
when I worked at Vital Science, you know,

232
00:12:28,380 --> 00:12:30,120
it was more of an architectural approach.

233
00:12:30,930 --> 00:12:31,170
Sure.

234
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,490
And that changed the whole
direction of, of Sign Art Studio.

235
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:41,160
And we started moving into, you
know, slowly but surely moving into

236
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:42,780
bigger commercial developments.

237
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:49,590
Um, and eventually in 2007 we
got our Ewell, um, listing.

238
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,910
And yeah, we kind of took a, a
departure from what I thought I

239
00:12:53,915 --> 00:12:58,410
would do, which is again, do all
sorts of hand painting all the time.

240
00:12:59,070 --> 00:13:01,350
So, yeah, that and, and at that time.

241
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,980
So it was 2007, there was three of us.

242
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:10,169
And then in, so it's 20 21, 20 24.

243
00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:14,370
We've been in this space for six
years and we moved into this space.

244
00:13:14,430 --> 00:13:17,670
There was five of us, and now we have 28.

245
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:18,840
Wow.

246
00:13:18,845 --> 00:13:19,735
A lot of growth.

247
00:13:19,735 --> 00:13:22,500
So it's just in the last few years,
like growth has exploded then.

248
00:13:22,715 --> 00:13:23,490
Yep, yep.

249
00:13:23,490 --> 00:13:26,220
And I was, you know, I
was gonna keep it small.

250
00:13:26,220 --> 00:13:28,200
We didn't really look for work.

251
00:13:28,290 --> 00:13:33,600
People kind of came to us and just
decided at a point in time, you know, we

252
00:13:33,605 --> 00:13:36,090
had carved out a little bit of a niche.

253
00:13:36,095 --> 00:13:39,870
You know, we weren't doing anything
that, that other shops couldn't do.

254
00:13:40,350 --> 00:13:45,090
We just started doing stuff that
other shops weren't doing anymore.

255
00:13:45,660 --> 00:13:47,819
Uh, and I think that, that, ah, I got you.

256
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:48,720
Yeah.

257
00:13:48,810 --> 00:13:51,750
You know, it, it, it carved
out a little bit of a niche.

258
00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:55,770
Some, you know, design
is hugely important.

259
00:13:55,830 --> 00:13:59,670
You know, I think that's the basis of
everything, um, as far as I'm concerned.

260
00:14:00,375 --> 00:14:05,745
And, you know, my training was,
was from a, a letterhead and

261
00:14:05,745 --> 00:14:07,365
assigned painting standpoint.

262
00:14:07,365 --> 00:14:11,385
So I think that gave
a leg up in some ways.

263
00:14:12,285 --> 00:14:17,415
You know, I honestly, I think if there's
a, a crux in our industry, um, at times

264
00:14:17,420 --> 00:14:21,165
I think it's designed, I think it's,
it's undervalued and sometimes I see

265
00:14:22,275 --> 00:14:24,615
signage work that I'm just saying, really.

266
00:14:24,915 --> 00:14:28,454
Like, that's really, and I get it,
you know, customer could have been

267
00:14:28,459 --> 00:14:32,444
involved or they're, you know, my,
my niece designed this logo for me.

268
00:14:32,444 --> 00:14:34,814
So it's gotta be that, you
know, I know the story.

269
00:14:34,819 --> 00:14:35,805
That's, that's

270
00:14:35,805 --> 00:14:36,704
what we're rolling with.

271
00:14:37,245 --> 00:14:37,875
Yeah.

272
00:14:37,964 --> 00:14:41,204
So, well, it's, it's, it's such a, yeah.

273
00:14:41,204 --> 00:14:46,425
Like everything that we do is design
driven and, you know, I, I had a call

274
00:14:46,425 --> 00:14:52,005
with, uh, some newer sign shop owners
a couple weeks ago, and like, they

275
00:14:52,005 --> 00:14:55,305
were stressed out about the business
side of it, but the, the husband

276
00:14:55,305 --> 00:14:57,165
was a, a former graphic designer.

277
00:14:57,630 --> 00:15:00,150
What he did, and I was like,
dude, you're gonna be okay.

278
00:15:00,209 --> 00:15:04,709
Like, just lean on that because
that'll get you, like the guy who

279
00:15:04,709 --> 00:15:09,030
buys a, a plotter and a printer
who has no design background.

280
00:15:09,035 --> 00:15:12,479
Like, you'll beat that guy every time
if you just lean on that aspect of it.

281
00:15:13,275 --> 00:15:13,925
Yeah, definitely.

282
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:15,300
Yeah.

283
00:15:15,359 --> 00:15:20,189
And so that, that helped a lot for us at
least, you know, establishing a corner

284
00:15:20,194 --> 00:15:25,739
of a, of a market and I wasn't stepping
on my former employer's toes, and so

285
00:15:25,739 --> 00:15:27,005
it worked out, worked out pretty good.

286
00:15:28,944 --> 00:15:29,365
Gotcha.

287
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,920
So you stayed in the, the same area then?

288
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:32,520
Yeah.

289
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,859
We're, we're, we're about 25 minutes
west of Madison, uh, Wisconsin, so.

290
00:15:37,979 --> 00:15:38,400
Okay, got it.

291
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:43,890
Um, yeah, and, and vital signs
is 10 minutes from my shop, so.

292
00:15:44,670 --> 00:15:45,089
Oh, okay.

293
00:15:45,630 --> 00:15:46,020
Yep.

294
00:15:46,290 --> 00:15:46,709
Oh good.

295
00:15:47,250 --> 00:15:51,599
And hey, like, looking at your work,
man, it's, it is clear, clear to me like.

296
00:15:52,155 --> 00:15:54,555
How that is, is like influenced.

297
00:15:54,555 --> 00:15:59,775
But, um, before we dive into like the,
the art and like, versus business side

298
00:15:59,775 --> 00:16:03,854
of it, like, you've got 28 people, what
does the, what does the team look like?

299
00:16:03,860 --> 00:16:06,854
What, you know, how do projects flow?

300
00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:08,115
Like those sorts of things.

301
00:16:08,505 --> 00:16:09,464
Yeah, yeah.

302
00:16:09,464 --> 00:16:10,035
Absolutely.

303
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,935
So we, we have, uh, what's going, Peter?

304
00:16:15,464 --> 00:16:16,155
Oh, there's Pete.

305
00:16:17,025 --> 00:16:17,685
What's up, Pete?

306
00:16:18,104 --> 00:16:18,525
Hello?

307
00:16:19,665 --> 00:16:21,135
Yeah, we got you, dude.

308
00:16:21,165 --> 00:16:21,405
All right.

309
00:16:21,620 --> 00:16:21,959
We good?

310
00:16:21,959 --> 00:16:22,454
Yeah, we hear you.

311
00:16:22,724 --> 00:16:23,204
You're good.

312
00:16:24,224 --> 00:16:24,974
Alright, cool.

313
00:16:25,484 --> 00:16:26,055
Sorry I'm late.

314
00:16:27,435 --> 00:16:28,334
Oh, all good man, Dan.

315
00:16:28,635 --> 00:16:28,875
Amen.

316
00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:30,795
I'm, I'm great.

317
00:16:31,275 --> 00:16:31,814
Thank you.

318
00:16:31,995 --> 00:16:32,535
Thank you.

319
00:16:33,255 --> 00:16:37,064
So yeah, we have our, our client
experience department, that we have

320
00:16:37,069 --> 00:16:39,314
our, our two account executives.

321
00:16:39,375 --> 00:16:45,464
Um, our design team, well design team
consists of, I'm the director of design.

322
00:16:45,765 --> 00:16:46,755
I don't do.

323
00:16:47,415 --> 00:16:50,235
I kind of pick and choose on
the design projects I work on,

324
00:16:50,235 --> 00:16:52,095
but we have a lead designer.

325
00:16:52,425 --> 00:16:55,425
Um, and then we have another
designer that works part-time.

326
00:16:56,115 --> 00:17:00,915
Um, so in our client experience, we
have design, uh, our account executives,

327
00:17:00,945 --> 00:17:04,815
and then our project management
team is then client experience.

328
00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:08,805
Then we have our pre-production
department, and there's three

329
00:17:08,805 --> 00:17:10,995
people, uh, on that team.

330
00:17:11,085 --> 00:17:15,734
Um, Kurt Crawford, our technical director,
he's been with me for the long haul

331
00:17:15,944 --> 00:17:18,765
since there was, it was just him and I.

332
00:17:18,825 --> 00:17:22,095
So he's been here about
13, going on 14 years.

333
00:17:22,694 --> 00:17:26,085
So he runs the pre-production
department, which is all the technical

334
00:17:26,085 --> 00:17:27,495
design, how we're gonna build it.

335
00:17:28,454 --> 00:17:32,655
Uh, then we have our production team,
um, does all the fab work, of course.

336
00:17:32,655 --> 00:17:36,555
And then our field operations
team who handles all of the, uh,

337
00:17:36,645 --> 00:17:39,195
all the installs, our surveys.

338
00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:43,830
All the survey work is, is part of
the pre-production team, which is

339
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:47,970
something that we kind of re-looked
at versus it being typically

340
00:17:47,970 --> 00:17:49,680
part of the install crew side.

341
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,560
Um, we figured that the
pre-production department needed

342
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,810
to source the proper information.

343
00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:01,590
Um, so we kept our, we have our
surveyors technically part of

344
00:18:01,590 --> 00:18:02,940
the, our pre-production team.

345
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,516
So that's it in a, in a, in a

346
00:18:05,521 --> 00:18:06,360
nutshell.

347
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:10,230
Do you guys, I, maybe I missed it.

348
00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:13,200
Did you guys have any sales reps,
like any account executives or, yeah,

349
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,150
so that's in our client experience.

350
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:15,420
Yeah.

351
00:18:15,425 --> 00:18:17,010
We got two account executives.

352
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:17,520
Okay, gotcha.

353
00:18:17,610 --> 00:18:17,910
Yeah.

354
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:19,890
And, and two project managers.

355
00:18:19,890 --> 00:18:26,910
So, um, yeah, we just, so we had run
without a project manager at all for

356
00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:32,280
quite a while until it just got too much
for, you know, our account executives

357
00:18:32,610 --> 00:18:34,355
to manage everything from start to end.

358
00:18:35,625 --> 00:18:39,254
So they don't even have, or our
executives don't even have a full year

359
00:18:39,254 --> 00:18:41,475
of having project management assistance.

360
00:18:41,475 --> 00:18:44,175
It's only about six, seven months old.

361
00:18:44,745 --> 00:18:49,844
So, uh, we're, we're like a startup
again, as we keep telling ourselves,

362
00:18:50,054 --> 00:18:53,685
which makes it a little easier,
you know, uh, when things aren't

363
00:18:53,685 --> 00:18:56,054
going, as soon as we know they can,

364
00:18:56,564 --> 00:18:57,855
a little more palatable.

365
00:18:57,915 --> 00:18:58,304
Yeah.

366
00:18:58,304 --> 00:18:58,814
Mm-Hmm.

367
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,254
What are you guys doing?

368
00:19:00,254 --> 00:19:02,175
Roughly like annual revenue?

369
00:19:02,264 --> 00:19:06,495
Just, just so like the listeners
have got like a, a sense of Yeah.

370
00:19:06,495 --> 00:19:06,975
Size.

371
00:19:07,425 --> 00:19:07,754
Yeah.

372
00:19:07,754 --> 00:19:10,004
So we're gonna, we're, we're
gonna close up the year.

373
00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:17,625
We're gonna be just under 5 million
this year, so, um, yeah, last year, 4.7.

374
00:19:18,014 --> 00:19:24,375
So, so, yeah, it's, uh, you know,
we wanted, we wanted this year to

375
00:19:24,375 --> 00:19:29,594
be modest growth over last year and
really, you know, last year was.

376
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:30,870
Very chaotic.

377
00:19:31,290 --> 00:19:37,320
It just was, you know, we had a, a,
I think it was a 37% growth and on

378
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,890
top of that growth from a revenue
standpoint, just growing a team.

379
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:45,960
You know, a lot of people who've never
been in this industry joined our team.

380
00:19:45,965 --> 00:19:50,220
And, you know, a lot of, uh,
tripping at times, you know,

381
00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:51,870
which was, was challenging.

382
00:19:51,870 --> 00:19:57,630
But starting, that's starting to hit our
stride or we have a long way to go, but,

383
00:19:57,750 --> 00:20:03,570
um, really starting to hit our stride
and really excited for 2024, I think.

384
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:06,930
Um, we're not planning for growth in 24.

385
00:20:07,465 --> 00:20:14,250
We'll wanna stay, you know, right in that
5 million range, um, and really work on.

386
00:20:14,655 --> 00:20:19,515
Refining our processes and, um,
working on the profit side of things.

387
00:20:21,140 --> 00:20:22,635
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

388
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:23,895
Definitely Something I wanna touch on.

389
00:20:24,195 --> 00:20:24,465
Yeah.

390
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:26,325
Uh, what was your experience like?

391
00:20:26,775 --> 00:20:30,915
You, you're growing, you're bringing in
people from outside the industry, right?

392
00:20:31,305 --> 00:20:35,295
Like, do you feel that's worked
out well for you, or do you feel

393
00:20:35,295 --> 00:20:39,315
like it would be better if you had
people who were actually experienced?

394
00:20:39,795 --> 00:20:44,235
Uh, it's a topic I hear come up quite
a bit in our, in our own group of

395
00:20:44,235 --> 00:20:46,305
like, Hey, I need to hire somebody.

396
00:20:46,335 --> 00:20:50,625
Do I hire somebody who's knows nothing
about signage or do I hire somebody,

397
00:20:51,075 --> 00:20:52,935
try to find somebody who has experience?

398
00:20:53,385 --> 00:20:55,935
Yeah, that's a, that's a a good question.

399
00:20:55,935 --> 00:20:58,425
And I would say the jury's out on that.

400
00:20:58,515 --> 00:21:03,375
Um, you know, there's big
advantages obviously of, of

401
00:21:03,375 --> 00:21:05,175
finding someone of good experience.

402
00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:08,955
And we've got, you know, our, like
our lead designer, Matt, he's been.

403
00:21:09,735 --> 00:21:13,665
You know, in the, in the
industry forever, in some form.

404
00:21:13,725 --> 00:21:18,255
You know, he took a couple diversions
into like working for an ad ad agency.

405
00:21:18,765 --> 00:21:23,205
Um, Kirk, he's been, he's got a
very similar background that I do.

406
00:21:23,715 --> 00:21:30,525
Um, one of our project managers, she
worked for Jones and so she's got,

407
00:21:30,615 --> 00:21:36,525
um, experience, uh, one of our account
executives, Allie, she worked for

408
00:21:36,525 --> 00:21:41,625
another sign company, um, here in the
Madison area as a project coordinator.

409
00:21:42,555 --> 00:21:45,106
Um, so there's, there's
definitely benefit to that.

410
00:21:45,705 --> 00:21:50,865
Uh, there's, you know, it's been nice
with our project manager Lindsay.

411
00:21:51,225 --> 00:21:55,665
Um, you know, when we hired our
project managers, we were very clear.

412
00:21:55,695 --> 00:21:59,355
We don't really even know
what this role means for us to

413
00:21:59,355 --> 00:22:00,975
be a hundred percent honest.

414
00:22:00,975 --> 00:22:05,775
And we're looking for you guys
to not only assist in developing.

415
00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:10,260
The process around project management,
you know, where did the handoffs happen,

416
00:22:10,590 --> 00:22:15,480
but also, you know, actually, you know,
executing on the, on the will itself.

417
00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:21,870
So now there's also on the other
side, it's nice to bring people in

418
00:22:21,875 --> 00:22:25,230
and develop 'em, um, from scratch.

419
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:31,050
And, and it's not like any one we brought
in would have, you know, they've usually

420
00:22:31,050 --> 00:22:35,610
got construction background or, you
know, welding or fabrication background.

421
00:22:36,090 --> 00:22:39,120
And so you, you do have a little bit
of a learning curve just to kind of

422
00:22:39,125 --> 00:22:43,890
help 'em understand, especially like
on the fabrication side, you know,

423
00:22:43,896 --> 00:22:49,230
like the fit and finish expectations
we've got out there right now.

424
00:22:49,290 --> 00:22:55,950
You know Adam Federman, who's our
shop supervisor, um, he's a literally

425
00:22:56,024 --> 00:22:58,710
a, a, a world class car builder.

426
00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:59,760
He worked for a, a.

427
00:23:00,675 --> 00:23:05,715
A company I about 15 minutes, west Europe,
a car building company, and they want cma.

428
00:23:05,715 --> 00:23:10,815
So I mean, he's got a very
high level of expectation.

429
00:23:10,995 --> 00:23:13,695
And so it's kind of like, Hey,
we understand that, but we're

430
00:23:13,695 --> 00:23:15,225
building signs, you know?

431
00:23:15,645 --> 00:23:16,095
Um,

432
00:23:16,155 --> 00:23:16,785
yeah.

433
00:23:16,790 --> 00:23:16,880
Yeah.

434
00:23:16,995 --> 00:23:20,355
So there's some, so it is not like
you're bringing in people that are

435
00:23:20,355 --> 00:23:25,065
not, like they, they have experience
just not necessarily in signage.

436
00:23:25,245 --> 00:23:26,385
Right, exactly.

437
00:23:26,925 --> 00:23:27,135
Yeah.

438
00:23:27,135 --> 00:23:31,425
And that same with the on the field crew,
you know, and they're, they're really hit

439
00:23:31,425 --> 00:23:35,295
their stride now, and that's just in a,
within a year, you know, a year or two.

440
00:23:35,295 --> 00:23:39,825
So, I don't know, man, I don't know
which ones, which one's better.

441
00:23:39,915 --> 00:23:44,295
Um, I think they both have
value, uh, in certain ways.

442
00:23:44,385 --> 00:23:44,655
Yeah.

443
00:23:44,805 --> 00:23:47,805
I, and there's, I don't think
there's, there's necessarily

444
00:23:47,805 --> 00:23:48,885
a right or wrong answer.

445
00:23:48,975 --> 00:23:49,875
It's Sure, right.

446
00:23:49,875 --> 00:23:52,995
Just a, a, a question I
thought was interesting.

447
00:23:53,175 --> 00:23:54,045
Yeah, that's come up.

448
00:23:54,885 --> 00:23:58,665
Hey, like, Hey, hey, the, the fit
and finish really comes through.

449
00:23:58,875 --> 00:24:01,935
Uh, and if you're listening to this
right now and you're on your computer

450
00:24:01,995 --> 00:24:05,955
or you're on your phone, hopefully
you're not driving, but if you go to

451
00:24:05,955 --> 00:24:10,995
their website, make signs, not war.com
and, and just take a look at their

452
00:24:10,995 --> 00:24:14,385
projects, just to kind of give you
context of what we're talking about.

453
00:24:14,745 --> 00:24:17,715
But I, I wanted to like
transition into like this, this

454
00:24:17,715 --> 00:24:19,395
concept of art versus business.

455
00:24:19,395 --> 00:24:21,435
I, I didn't know how to frame it
when I was putting together the

456
00:24:21,435 --> 00:24:24,195
notes, but, uh, about the time.

457
00:24:24,195 --> 00:24:27,135
I, I would say it was probably about the
same time that you were coming up, right?

458
00:24:27,195 --> 00:24:31,905
Like, uh, mid two thousands, like all
the equipment was getting super cheap.

459
00:24:32,505 --> 00:24:36,765
Like, it, it, to me, I was in the
business around the, the same time of,

460
00:24:37,485 --> 00:24:39,315
uh, a little bit after you, but like.

461
00:24:40,515 --> 00:24:45,345
It felt like the whole industry kinda
shifted to, like, how, how much square

462
00:24:45,345 --> 00:24:47,235
footage of signage can we print?

463
00:24:47,235 --> 00:24:52,390
Or just like, how much stuff can we
push out the door versus, you know,

464
00:24:52,450 --> 00:24:57,555
hey, like you look at hand lettering
and foil and, and like carving and,

465
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,405
and all these things that kind of
like took a seat during that time.

466
00:25:01,065 --> 00:25:01,455
Yeah.

467
00:25:01,455 --> 00:25:01,605
Um,

468
00:25:02,025 --> 00:25:04,935
yeah, I mean that, that, yeah, go ahead.

469
00:25:05,175 --> 00:25:09,255
Uh, no, I was gonna say is that, you know,
growing up, well, I won't say growing up,

470
00:25:09,255 --> 00:25:13,155
but getting your feet under you in the
industry under vital signs, obviously like

471
00:25:13,155 --> 00:25:17,985
helped push you in that direction, but it,
like, it is clear looking at your work.

472
00:25:17,985 --> 00:25:23,505
Like you guys focus heavily on,
like, this is really well designed.

473
00:25:23,505 --> 00:25:25,785
It's like there's an art focus to it.

474
00:25:26,055 --> 00:25:28,965
Like, what's your take on just like.

475
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,080
Like that era, like have you
seen a shift back to like the

476
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,580
craftsmanship in the industry?

477
00:25:35,580 --> 00:25:36,810
Like Yeah.

478
00:25:36,810 --> 00:25:40,980
You know, just what's your take over
the last 10, 20 years of the industry?

479
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:42,270
Yeah, definitely.

480
00:25:42,275 --> 00:25:43,680
It's, that's a great question.

481
00:25:43,710 --> 00:25:49,170
Um, and, and it's one that has come
up often and, and you know, just

482
00:25:49,170 --> 00:25:52,680
around here in terms of, you know,
talking with the team and helping 'em

483
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,750
understand a little bit of the history
of the company and, you know, some of

484
00:25:57,750 --> 00:26:00,480
the culture and the, the core values.

485
00:26:00,485 --> 00:26:05,520
One of our core values is that we
honor our trades, tradition traditions.

486
00:26:05,610 --> 00:26:07,485
Um, because I do think
that's so important.

487
00:26:08,285 --> 00:26:14,370
I know that, you know, like you said
in that two thousands, 2005 on when I

488
00:26:14,370 --> 00:26:20,640
started Sign Art Studio, I think there
was a, the Dark Ages honestly of, of

489
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,710
signages, like digital printers, you
know, that became a, a big thing.

490
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:31,620
And also like red channel letters
everywhere, because I think,

491
00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:35,940
yeah, red, LED was the cheapest, I
think when LED started coming out.

492
00:26:36,150 --> 00:26:37,110
I remember that.

493
00:26:37,530 --> 00:26:43,800
And so everything was like red channel
letters and you know, I don't, I

494
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,910
can't pinpoint a hundred percent when
the, the shift started to happen.

495
00:26:47,910 --> 00:26:51,750
And, and I don't know if it was more,
'cause we never really got into that.

496
00:26:51,780 --> 00:26:58,320
That just wasn't, I wasn't interested
in it, but it did seem like probably,

497
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:05,310
you know, out after the, you know,
2008, 2009, 2010, I'd say, right?

498
00:27:05,310 --> 00:27:09,300
In 2010, 11 and on, um,
things started to shift.

499
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:12,360
People wanted something that was not that.

500
00:27:12,570 --> 00:27:17,070
And I think the pendulum sw, you know, I
don't know if it's the hipster, whatever

501
00:27:17,070 --> 00:27:21,810
generation, you know, like, we're like,
Hey, we don't want this crap, you know?

502
00:27:22,895 --> 00:27:26,160
Can, can we correlate that
back to like the price of PBR?

503
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,760
Maybe, like, we'll have, we'll have
to go back in there, look at numbers.

504
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:29,820
Yeah.

505
00:27:31,020 --> 00:27:37,680
Um, but yeah, definitely there were, there
was a shift in, uh, I think also then a

506
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,480
shift in our mentality here as we, you
know, were starting to, uh, get more of a

507
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:50,760
footprint and some credibility, but always
wanting to come from that traditional

508
00:27:50,850 --> 00:27:55,350
foundation that I had, you know, with,
with letterheads and sign painting, we

509
00:27:55,350 --> 00:28:01,560
weren't painting signs all the time, but
from a design standpoint, good design, um,

510
00:28:02,130 --> 00:28:04,650
let's look at different materials to use.

511
00:28:04,650 --> 00:28:10,740
And once I kind of broke out of that,
you know, sign painter type mentality

512
00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:14,370
and graphics, because we did a ton of
trunk lettering, you know, which was,

513
00:28:14,970 --> 00:28:19,530
they were a blast, you know, it would be
a combination of hand lettering, vinyl,

514
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:21,390
and striping airbrushing, you name it.

515
00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:26,400
But once I kind of explored more and we
got more into this architectural stuff,

516
00:28:27,330 --> 00:28:32,730
the whole whole world opened out, you
know, fabrication, welding, uh, you know,

517
00:28:32,850 --> 00:28:36,360
stainless aluminum natural wood finishes.

518
00:28:36,690 --> 00:28:40,501
And so I think it just was the
right, it was a good timing for it.

519
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:46,230
And certainly in, in Madison, you
know, it's a, a, a creative town

520
00:28:46,290 --> 00:28:51,000
with creative individuals and I
think our product fit well with

521
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,170
the market here, and we're offering
something that nobody else really was.

522
00:28:55,260 --> 00:29:02,910
You know, at the time, two big
sign shops went down in 2008 to

523
00:29:02,910 --> 00:29:07,410
2010, you know, and they were,
they've been around for a long time.

524
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:14,340
And so once that happened, there
was no other UL listed electrical

525
00:29:14,340 --> 00:29:15,990
sign manufacturers in our area.

526
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,190
Uh, there is one, there is one,
um, Wisconsin signing graphics.

527
00:29:20,220 --> 00:29:21,030
Good dudes.

528
00:29:21,675 --> 00:29:24,764
They're, I think they're a two
person shop, but for what we were

529
00:29:24,764 --> 00:29:28,335
doing and, and where we're going,
we didn't have any competition for

530
00:29:28,335 --> 00:29:30,855
actually fabricating, um, in our shop.

531
00:29:31,365 --> 00:29:33,855
We have some competition that,
you know, they're brokers,

532
00:29:34,125 --> 00:29:35,835
um, and that has their place.

533
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,544
But, so yeah, I don't know.

534
00:29:37,575 --> 00:29:40,455
It it, we started offering
something a little different.

535
00:29:40,754 --> 00:29:44,925
Um, just a little bit of a, a
tweak on, on what else is going on.

536
00:29:44,925 --> 00:29:51,524
And it's working needs, needs, like
I said, we're working on the profit

537
00:29:51,524 --> 00:29:52,965
part, but the rest is working well.

538
00:29:54,830 --> 00:29:55,875
Well, I, yeah, man.

539
00:29:55,965 --> 00:29:59,804
Uh, you know, I think a lot of us got into
this industry for like, the craft of it.

540
00:29:59,804 --> 00:30:01,274
Like, Hey, I could build cool stuff.

541
00:30:01,695 --> 00:30:06,254
And I, and I hate to see like, when shops
lose that and it's just like a, a focus

542
00:30:06,260 --> 00:30:10,754
on like the business side of it, because
it is, to me, this is a personal industry.

543
00:30:11,024 --> 00:30:15,375
Like, you know, I'm always, you
know, and it, it came through when

544
00:30:15,375 --> 00:30:18,014
we were talking with Dan Ky Yeah.

545
00:30:18,014 --> 00:30:18,645
Of like.

546
00:30:19,755 --> 00:30:21,105
How can I one up myself?

547
00:30:21,105 --> 00:30:22,725
Like, I'm not competing with anybody else.

548
00:30:22,725 --> 00:30:25,515
It's like, how can, how are
we gonna one up ourselves or,

549
00:30:25,770 --> 00:30:28,335
or our peers, uh, for that's

550
00:30:28,335 --> 00:30:32,775
a, that is another, and it's important
that, you know, I'll, I'll speak on

551
00:30:32,775 --> 00:30:39,435
this because I, I, I've spoke about
this at the shop here, is I want if a,

552
00:30:39,435 --> 00:30:45,615
if a, if a sign nerd walks up to our
signs, I want them to be like, oh, okay.

553
00:30:45,615 --> 00:30:46,875
That's, that one's legit.

554
00:30:46,875 --> 00:30:48,345
They did a nice job on this.

555
00:30:48,555 --> 00:30:51,225
You know, so I'm, we're building
for ourselves and then also

556
00:30:51,225 --> 00:30:53,595
probably for our peers, you know?

557
00:30:54,045 --> 00:30:55,180
Um, right on, right on.

558
00:30:55,725 --> 00:30:59,145
Keep it, keep, it keeps everybody
aligned on a common goal, right?

559
00:30:59,145 --> 00:31:05,115
Like if you're, if you are getting
business from other clients because of

560
00:31:05,115 --> 00:31:06,525
your craftsmanship, that's one thing.

561
00:31:06,525 --> 00:31:12,795
But if you're getting it from technicians,
sign makers, your peers, you know, from

562
00:31:13,065 --> 00:31:17,685
shops or even your own shop, I mean, it's
really good to get that level of, uh.

563
00:31:18,074 --> 00:31:18,945
Satisfaction.

564
00:31:19,304 --> 00:31:22,814
I have a quick question,
um, for, for you here, Dan.

565
00:31:22,814 --> 00:31:28,425
And, and this is kind of going back to uh,
just something that you briefly mentioned

566
00:31:28,425 --> 00:31:33,014
maybe like five or six minutes ago, and
that's bring you bringing people in.

567
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,710
That are green in the industry and kind
of bringing them into your team here.

568
00:31:38,129 --> 00:31:40,740
Uh, and yes, I mean obviously
everybody really wants to try and

569
00:31:40,740 --> 00:31:46,379
find a level of experience when they
are hired, but what is it that you do

570
00:31:46,379 --> 00:31:52,350
in your, in your business, um, with
your team to onboard a new employee?

571
00:31:52,350 --> 00:31:53,520
How do you train them?

572
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:54,570
What are your methods?

573
00:31:54,575 --> 00:31:58,860
What do you, what do you like to
do, uh, when, in any role, for that

574
00:31:58,860 --> 00:32:02,820
matter, whether it's a designer, a,
a production specialist, um, I was

575
00:32:02,825 --> 00:32:03,870
just taking a look at your website.

576
00:32:03,875 --> 00:32:06,300
You got a lot of people on your team
in a lot of different departments.

577
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:10,830
So whether it's a project manager or
an installer, what do, what type of

578
00:32:10,830 --> 00:32:15,570
modules do you have for each particular
role to train somebody in their lane?

579
00:32:15,780 --> 00:32:16,200
That's

580
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,510
a, a great question, Pete.

581
00:32:18,570 --> 00:32:25,800
Uh, majority of it is three words,
uh, trial by fire, um, which,

582
00:32:26,010 --> 00:32:27,540
you know, we're working on that.

583
00:32:27,540 --> 00:32:28,440
It, it's, it's.

584
00:32:29,085 --> 00:32:30,285
I'm glad you brought that up.

585
00:32:30,315 --> 00:32:34,485
And, and I say that half joking, but up
until probably four or five years ago,

586
00:32:34,485 --> 00:32:35,955
that was a hundred percent the case.

587
00:32:35,955 --> 00:32:41,085
We didn't really, we really started
developing process and procedure

588
00:32:41,115 --> 00:32:43,365
probably only six or seven years ago.

589
00:32:43,875 --> 00:32:49,875
And so those of of us who were on
the team that only came on, you know,

590
00:32:49,995 --> 00:32:57,435
within the last two years or, or even
the last year, um, there wasn't much in

591
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,615
the realm of, of modules or training.

592
00:33:00,615 --> 00:33:07,485
It's just dig in and, um, learn as you
go, which is a lot of how I learned.

593
00:33:07,995 --> 00:33:13,575
Um, but I would say, you know, like our,
our project managers, we do have, I mean,

594
00:33:13,575 --> 00:33:19,605
we have spent, I don't know, thousands of
hours, I'm sure on developing a process

595
00:33:19,610 --> 00:33:23,175
and then, you know, something works
and then it doesn't, uh, we tweak it.

596
00:33:23,655 --> 00:33:27,705
But yeah, I would it
more, just more recently.

597
00:33:28,274 --> 00:33:35,115
Um, I would say like on the project
management side, our account executives,

598
00:33:35,205 --> 00:33:41,355
you know, they have, we've got some good
process in place at this point, but, you

599
00:33:41,355 --> 00:33:47,805
know, moving forward, uh, you know, real
training program as something that, you

600
00:33:47,805 --> 00:33:49,965
know, we wanna work harder on for sure.

601
00:33:50,534 --> 00:33:54,645
And I think that right now,
basically shadowing shadow.

602
00:33:54,825 --> 00:33:55,274
Yeah.

603
00:33:55,274 --> 00:33:55,276
Yeah.

604
00:33:55,695 --> 00:33:56,625
It seems pretty common.

605
00:33:56,655 --> 00:33:57,495
Yeah, that's common.

606
00:33:57,495 --> 00:34:01,125
We had a guest here, uh, earlier on
in the year and they had a full-time

607
00:34:01,455 --> 00:34:04,605
trainer on staff for all divisions.

608
00:34:04,605 --> 00:34:05,774
I'm not sure if you've heard that.

609
00:34:05,925 --> 00:34:06,225
Uh,

610
00:34:06,705 --> 00:34:07,004
I did.

611
00:34:07,455 --> 00:34:08,445
I listened to that one.

612
00:34:11,654 --> 00:34:12,225
Been.

613
00:34:12,975 --> 00:34:16,154
In the back of my mind a a topic of
conversation, especially when you're

614
00:34:16,154 --> 00:34:20,054
working with an organization with as
many employees as you have that does

615
00:34:20,054 --> 00:34:25,304
the gross numbers that you have that
specializes in the work that you produce.

616
00:34:25,304 --> 00:34:27,554
I mean, it's nothing short of spectacular.

617
00:34:27,554 --> 00:34:28,784
You guys do great work.

618
00:34:28,784 --> 00:34:31,004
Um, you portfolio is amazing.

619
00:34:31,274 --> 00:34:35,234
As a sign maker, as a sign fabricator,
I look at this sort of thing and I'm

620
00:34:35,234 --> 00:34:36,614
like, man, this guy just gets it.

621
00:34:36,824 --> 00:34:40,815
There's some of this work here,
like, uh, this tattoo shop sign

622
00:34:40,815 --> 00:34:43,694
and all the dimension and the level
of design that goes into that,

623
00:34:44,145 --> 00:34:46,004
uh, the materials that were used.

624
00:34:46,004 --> 00:34:50,264
I mean, you just know living outside
the box, like you're not a light

625
00:34:50,270 --> 00:34:52,185
box in sign face type of shop.

626
00:34:52,245 --> 00:34:56,355
You're, you're the type of shop that's
gonna take that, that level of design

627
00:34:56,359 --> 00:35:00,345
and, and really make your stamp, make
your mark in your own community there.

628
00:35:01,004 --> 00:35:05,115
But with, with that, and I'm gonna
push back on Bryant here a little bit.

629
00:35:05,115 --> 00:35:11,265
We don't often disagree on something,
but this is a point where I do disagree.

630
00:35:11,805 --> 00:35:12,315
Okay.

631
00:35:12,825 --> 00:35:17,505
This business, this business is
founded upon the graphic design.

632
00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:18,730
Mm-Hmm.

633
00:35:18,855 --> 00:35:20,835
Quality craftsmanship, right?

634
00:35:21,285 --> 00:35:21,435
Yeah.

635
00:35:21,465 --> 00:35:26,835
This industry back, you can go
all the way back to the wild West.

636
00:35:26,865 --> 00:35:28,125
There were sign shops.

637
00:35:28,545 --> 00:35:28,935
Okay.

638
00:35:28,995 --> 00:35:29,505
Absolutely.

639
00:35:29,535 --> 00:35:32,355
There were shops that
were hand painting signs.

640
00:35:32,355 --> 00:35:36,015
This industry has been around for
generations, so it's founded upon

641
00:35:36,015 --> 00:35:38,775
a craft, an art, the artisan skill.

642
00:35:39,675 --> 00:35:44,085
But here in today's day and age,
especially with all the technology

643
00:35:44,085 --> 00:35:48,075
that we have in front of us, uh,
now with things like what you could

644
00:35:48,105 --> 00:35:53,625
do with AI and Photoshop, I mean,
it's, it's revolutionizing, it's

645
00:35:53,625 --> 00:35:56,865
revolutionizing our industry, but it is.

646
00:35:57,270 --> 00:36:00,480
Taking the artistry out
of it to some extent.

647
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,060
I think there will be a lot of people
that would disagree with that statement.

648
00:36:03,060 --> 00:36:06,540
But there it's, it is impacting that.

649
00:36:06,540 --> 00:36:08,910
But what it's not impacting
is the business side.

650
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:15,390
And the business side is the ugly
hat of, well, one of the many

651
00:36:15,390 --> 00:36:18,240
hats we all wear as owners, right?

652
00:36:18,270 --> 00:36:21,690
It's the right, we have to take
a margins, we have to take a

653
00:36:21,690 --> 00:36:23,129
look at those percentage points.

654
00:36:23,129 --> 00:36:28,170
Where can we improve upon, uh,
where are the inefficiencies?

655
00:36:28,259 --> 00:36:35,040
Where are the easy, low hanging fruit
mark margins that we can improve upon?

656
00:36:35,565 --> 00:36:37,275
To put more profit in our business.

657
00:36:37,335 --> 00:36:41,745
And, and one of those areas that
I often talk about is training

658
00:36:42,345 --> 00:36:46,275
because it's not something, in my
opinion that you should do one time.

659
00:36:46,785 --> 00:36:49,485
It's not something that you
should be doing once a year.

660
00:36:49,485 --> 00:36:52,335
It's something that you should be,
it's more of like a mindset, like

661
00:36:52,545 --> 00:36:58,634
what are you, what is your team doing
each and every day to become better?

662
00:36:59,295 --> 00:37:03,615
Whether that's taking a class, going for,
you know, going for a training class.

663
00:37:03,615 --> 00:37:07,965
Now, what are those areas of
improvement that you can learn

664
00:37:07,965 --> 00:37:08,655
from throughout the year?

665
00:37:08,660 --> 00:37:12,945
There has to be some sort of, uh, in
order to get to a shop like you, at your

666
00:37:12,945 --> 00:37:15,525
level, you have to have some sort of.

667
00:37:16,485 --> 00:37:20,535
Continuing, uh, continuing
training for your employees,

668
00:37:20,955 --> 00:37:22,605
but not necessarily just there.

669
00:37:22,875 --> 00:37:24,465
It's how they get started too.

670
00:37:24,465 --> 00:37:27,735
If you're spending money on an employee
and we all know what that feels

671
00:37:27,735 --> 00:37:31,335
like, that is not performing because
they're just taking a little bit of

672
00:37:31,335 --> 00:37:36,375
time to ramp up, to get familiar with
your processes, to get familiar with

673
00:37:36,375 --> 00:37:42,495
your software, the, the, the, the,
your system workflow, if you will.

674
00:37:42,495 --> 00:37:43,065
It takes time.

675
00:37:43,125 --> 00:37:47,205
Even me, if I, if I was hired to
come work with you, it would take

676
00:37:47,205 --> 00:37:49,935
me a certain period of time to
get acclimated to your systems.

677
00:37:49,935 --> 00:37:53,145
And I, I like to think it wouldn't
take very long, but it could

678
00:37:53,505 --> 00:37:55,725
take longer than I might think.

679
00:37:55,730 --> 00:37:57,315
Yeah, right.

680
00:37:57,375 --> 00:38:01,575
But the, so, so again, we're,
we'll come back to your ownership

681
00:38:01,575 --> 00:38:03,015
hat here, Dan, for a moment.

682
00:38:04,170 --> 00:38:04,860
Yeah, absolutely.

683
00:38:04,860 --> 00:38:06,450
Do you think that, is
this where we disagree?

684
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,930
Yeah, because I think that
this is about business.

685
00:38:09,930 --> 00:38:12,660
I think that there is some
pieces that you have to put your

686
00:38:12,660 --> 00:38:14,970
business hat on and forget about.

687
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:15,240
Yeah.

688
00:38:15,245 --> 00:38:18,870
We, we make great, amazing products
and services and, you know,

689
00:38:19,230 --> 00:38:20,520
we love our community, right?

690
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:25,140
We love our clients and, you know,
wherever, wherever the profit lands, the

691
00:38:25,140 --> 00:38:29,520
profit lands, like no, let's, let's be a
little bit more strategic about it, right?

692
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,840
Training, onboarding, uh,
profit and loss management.

693
00:38:33,845 --> 00:38:38,580
These are all pieces of making a more
profitable company so that you can grow

694
00:38:38,585 --> 00:38:43,560
the company so that you can maybe bring
on additional labor, additional equipment,

695
00:38:43,620 --> 00:38:47,400
additional areas to bring in revenue.

696
00:38:47,730 --> 00:38:51,510
You cannot bring on another
salesperson, another five salespeople.

697
00:38:51,780 --> 00:38:55,440
Bring on a sales fleet of vehicles
that are wrapped for your brand

698
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:56,700
and go drive around, right?

699
00:38:56,700 --> 00:38:59,010
You can't do that if there's
no money in the till.

700
00:38:59,925 --> 00:39:04,335
So I don't know if I a hundred percent
agree with Brian saying like, ah, is,

701
00:39:04,575 --> 00:39:06,405
this is where people get confused.

702
00:39:06,405 --> 00:39:10,845
It's mostly about being, you know,
awesome artists and not business owners.

703
00:39:10,845 --> 00:39:13,215
Like let, don't No, no, no, no, no.

704
00:39:13,220 --> 00:39:15,345
That's not what I'm, that's
not what I'm saying, man.

705
00:39:15,525 --> 00:39:19,260
And I'm saying that's why most
people get into the industry, right?

706
00:39:19,545 --> 00:39:21,015
Like, yeah.

707
00:39:21,765 --> 00:39:26,145
Not like, Hey, I, I'm make a business
amazing business out of this.

708
00:39:26,145 --> 00:39:29,655
It's like, Hey, I can build cool
stuff and get paid to do that.

709
00:39:29,655 --> 00:39:32,805
And Yeah, well that's, we're
talking about Origins like,

710
00:39:32,895 --> 00:39:34,125
well that's funny.

711
00:39:34,395 --> 00:39:35,775
That's how it starts though.

712
00:39:35,835 --> 00:39:36,735
That's how it starts.

713
00:39:36,945 --> 00:39:39,945
Because you got into this business
as a designer, thinking you're gonna

714
00:39:39,945 --> 00:39:43,665
be a great design designer, but
you, that, that doesn't necessarily

715
00:39:43,665 --> 00:39:44,745
mean you're gonna be a great owner.

716
00:39:45,525 --> 00:39:46,065
So,

717
00:39:46,095 --> 00:39:46,125
I

718
00:39:46,130 --> 00:39:52,785
mean, this is, yeah, this is exactly
the, I don't wanna say crux, but

719
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:57,945
almost every damn trade related
business that's started is because.

720
00:39:58,530 --> 00:40:01,620
That individual thought that
they could do a better job than

721
00:40:01,620 --> 00:40:02,460
the place that they weren't.

722
00:40:02,850 --> 00:40:03,270
Right.

723
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:04,380
And oh, yeah.

724
00:40:04,410 --> 00:40:07,770
The barber that thought they could be,
he could cut hair better than his boss.

725
00:40:07,775 --> 00:40:09,330
Like Yeah, absolutely.

726
00:40:09,330 --> 00:40:09,900
Absolutely.

727
00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:13,920
It's, it's, it's a, it's a line right
out of the E-Myth method, right?

728
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:14,505
So, yep.

729
00:40:14,505 --> 00:40:14,865
Exactly.

730
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,440
You're a technician, you're a
technician, and you're jumping into a

731
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,620
business because you think you could
do your job better than your boss.

732
00:40:22,620 --> 00:40:26,100
But really, I'm not saying, I'm
not criticizing you, Dan, at all.

733
00:40:26,105 --> 00:40:29,910
I'm not, and I don't wanna go on
a, on a tangent here too far away

734
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:34,830
from the question, but the, you're,
you have a successful business.

735
00:40:34,860 --> 00:40:37,020
You employ a lot of people.

736
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,990
You do, you do amazing work.

737
00:40:40,980 --> 00:40:47,370
But what are the areas that your shop can
improve upon to add to the bottom line?

738
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,920
That's a very simple way
of asking the question.

739
00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:54,780
And so, and I want you to focus
on the business side, not the, not

740
00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:56,190
the artisan side of the business.

741
00:40:57,315 --> 00:41:03,524
Well, let, let me also let, let's, what
I will also add to this conversation

742
00:41:03,524 --> 00:41:14,714
and, and clarify is we have a very robust
cost tracking, um, systems in place that

743
00:41:14,714 --> 00:41:21,464
really finally started kind of getting
on plane in the last quarter of 23 here.

744
00:41:21,524 --> 00:41:24,105
Um, but we've been, been
working on it for quite a while.

745
00:41:24,105 --> 00:41:27,585
So we do have systems in place.

746
00:41:27,585 --> 00:41:29,745
We have monthly managers meetings.

747
00:41:29,774 --> 00:41:36,225
Um, we do wip, we do work in a full work
in process schedule, um, every month.

748
00:41:37,214 --> 00:41:38,924
And so we have Hey,

749
00:41:38,924 --> 00:41:42,105
Pete, like you, you would
shit at their schedule, dude.

750
00:41:42,705 --> 00:41:43,694
Pete would geek out on it.

751
00:41:43,725 --> 00:41:44,055
Yeah.

752
00:41:44,085 --> 00:41:45,734
Like, like if you show
'em the spreadsheet.

753
00:41:45,794 --> 00:41:46,274
Yeah.

754
00:41:46,279 --> 00:41:49,605
And I, I have it pulled up and I
can here in a second, but yeah, so

755
00:41:49,605 --> 00:41:53,714
we have, we have that, we have this
labor capacity planning tool that.

756
00:41:54,270 --> 00:41:56,730
Um, that Bryant was just mentioning.

757
00:41:57,690 --> 00:42:01,290
Our team works with most of our
team works with a business coach.

758
00:42:01,350 --> 00:42:07,109
Um, we're actually in 24 'cause
I couldn't, everywhere I looked

759
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:10,500
and everywhere I turned it's
EOS traction, EOS traction.

760
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,790
So we actually are, are
onboarding that and 24.

761
00:42:15,299 --> 00:42:20,460
So in, in terms of the foundational
business aspect of the company,

762
00:42:21,330 --> 00:42:25,680
that is an area obviously when
I started this, I didn't, didn't

763
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:26,970
pay any attention to it all.

764
00:42:27,359 --> 00:42:32,040
But that started probably seven years
ago, I would say seven, eight years ago.

765
00:42:32,339 --> 00:42:36,240
Um, where we got serious about that
and it's taken all of that time to

766
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:41,069
get to where we are in a lot of trial
by fire, what's working, what's not.

767
00:42:41,759 --> 00:42:46,649
So there we do have those
foundations, um, in place now.

768
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,830
And also one of our core
values is we are profitable.

769
00:42:50,384 --> 00:42:56,415
So that is something that is extremely
important and also is that, you know,

770
00:42:56,444 --> 00:43:01,305
where do you draw the line between
what you're passionate about and

771
00:43:01,305 --> 00:43:04,274
your craft and, and that bottom line.

772
00:43:04,365 --> 00:43:08,174
And that is something that we have
been up against for the, certainly

773
00:43:08,180 --> 00:43:11,955
the last probably, well, I'd say
it started, you know, when Covid

774
00:43:11,955 --> 00:43:16,785
started, um, because right around then
we started growing the company is,

775
00:43:17,024 --> 00:43:18,314
you know, to where we're at today.

776
00:43:19,035 --> 00:43:24,285
So we have those in place now in
terms of, uh, uh, formatted training.

777
00:43:24,705 --> 00:43:28,995
Um, that is something that we
want to get better at for sure.

778
00:43:29,714 --> 00:43:32,805
You know, like on the sales team,
you know, my wife joined on two

779
00:43:32,805 --> 00:43:35,024
years ago, sales is her background.

780
00:43:35,029 --> 00:43:37,904
So she runs the client experience
department and they have their

781
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:40,875
weekly huddles and, you know,
go through their forecasts.

782
00:43:40,964 --> 00:43:43,365
Um, so it's not like it.

783
00:43:43,370 --> 00:43:49,035
And this is a bunch of people
running around without structure and.

784
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,470
Or anything like that.

785
00:43:52,740 --> 00:43:59,310
It is very much a company, it is very
much, uh, needs to be profitable.

786
00:43:59,370 --> 00:44:05,819
Uh, we are keep a close eye on our direct
build time versus our overhead time and,

787
00:44:06,540 --> 00:44:12,150
you know, so there's a a ton of huge, big
positive shifts that, that have happened

788
00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:13,620
in the last couple years in that regard.

789
00:44:13,799 --> 00:44:18,600
Uh, but I think the area, certainly
where we, we feel or fell short or,

790
00:44:18,810 --> 00:44:25,255
or falling short is what is that, um,
regimented training or improvement.

791
00:44:25,799 --> 00:44:27,750
Um, what does that look like?

792
00:44:28,410 --> 00:44:32,130
And I think we're gonna be delving
into that with more consistency

793
00:44:32,130 --> 00:44:34,590
as we onboard this EOS system.

794
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:40,440
You know, over the next, you
know, well 24 and beyond, digging

795
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:41,819
into what, what the issues are.

796
00:44:41,825 --> 00:44:47,910
And we do, we do this, it's, you know,
with our managers meetings, um, we got QC.

797
00:44:48,450 --> 00:44:52,799
Stuff in place, um, you know,
for every, every department.

798
00:44:53,459 --> 00:44:57,870
So it's there, it's just, it's, it's in
what I would consider a startup phase

799
00:44:57,930 --> 00:45:05,669
where we're, we're understanding now
what it's like to be a company versus a

800
00:45:05,674 --> 00:45:11,009
shop that quite frankly feels like was
leisurely making signs back in the day.

801
00:45:11,430 --> 00:45:15,390
It wasn't that, but where we're at
now goes, is where we were then.

802
00:45:15,390 --> 00:45:16,319
It feels like that.

803
00:45:17,220 --> 00:45:23,730
So yeah, it's not just, it's not just
a, um, couple people, you know, in a

804
00:45:23,730 --> 00:45:25,589
club hanging out, making signs anymore.

805
00:45:25,589 --> 00:45:29,730
It's, it's, this is, this is the
real deal and it's high stakes,

806
00:45:29,819 --> 00:45:33,240
um, you know, with all the people
we have and the families that rely

807
00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:35,009
on, on the decisions that are made.

808
00:45:35,009 --> 00:45:39,330
So, I don't know if I answered
your question, Pete, a hundred

809
00:45:39,330 --> 00:45:42,720
percent, but at least wanted to.

810
00:45:43,455 --> 00:45:48,135
Let you know that there's quite
a bit of, of foundation to

811
00:45:48,135 --> 00:45:50,445
what we're doing right now, so

812
00:45:51,380 --> 00:45:51,670
Yeah.

813
00:45:51,675 --> 00:45:52,035
Yeah.

814
00:45:52,035 --> 00:45:55,545
I I don't think, and you don't get to
5 million if you, if you don't have

815
00:45:55,550 --> 00:45:56,265
some of those things.

816
00:45:56,265 --> 00:45:58,725
That's exactly, that's exactly
the point I was trying to say.

817
00:45:58,725 --> 00:45:59,025
Yeah.

818
00:45:59,030 --> 00:46:03,105
It, it wasn't implying that you
were not, it was saying, you,

819
00:46:03,165 --> 00:46:04,635
you need to be doing something.

820
00:46:04,635 --> 00:46:06,345
And I would love to know what that was.

821
00:46:06,345 --> 00:46:09,735
And I got a lot of nuggets there,
and I think our listeners are too.

822
00:46:09,735 --> 00:46:13,965
I mean, not every shop, not every shop
that we, that listens to us is, is

823
00:46:13,965 --> 00:46:15,765
at 4 million as quickly as you did.

824
00:46:16,125 --> 00:46:17,205
As quickly as you got there.

825
00:46:17,205 --> 00:46:17,206
Yeah.

826
00:46:17,385 --> 00:46:20,685
And, and not everybody has the same story.

827
00:46:20,835 --> 00:46:24,225
And I'm, and I'm on your website
and reading what your story is.

828
00:46:24,225 --> 00:46:26,445
I'm trying to get a little bit
of more of a backstory here.

829
00:46:26,475 --> 00:46:31,365
But you have to have processes,
you have to be focused on profit.

830
00:46:32,115 --> 00:46:37,215
It seems like you have, um,
an EOS focus, which is, I.

831
00:46:38,924 --> 00:46:41,535
Right up my alley and
really happy to hear about.

832
00:46:41,535 --> 00:46:41,595
Yeah.

833
00:46:42,225 --> 00:46:44,924
Uh, what, what is, let's, let's
talk about that for a minute.

834
00:46:44,924 --> 00:46:46,215
Is that a focus for next year?

835
00:46:46,215 --> 00:46:49,305
Is that something that you've
kind of brought on late this year?

836
00:46:49,310 --> 00:46:50,445
Talk to me a little bit about that.

837
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:50,920
Yeah,

838
00:46:51,404 --> 00:46:51,735
yeah.

839
00:46:51,735 --> 00:46:58,065
So it's funny, you know, I have my
business books and podcasts and, well,

840
00:46:58,065 --> 00:47:03,165
audio books I'll say, I, I reading, uh, an
actual book puts me to sleep immediately.

841
00:47:03,165 --> 00:47:09,015
But I have been interested in, in
that listening one that was hugely

842
00:47:09,015 --> 00:47:10,845
impactful, was good to great.

843
00:47:11,295 --> 00:47:14,805
Um, that was, I read that on
don't know, probably six or seven

844
00:47:14,810 --> 00:47:16,575
years ago that had a big impact.

845
00:47:17,055 --> 00:47:22,515
Uh, the one thing, um, podcast and then
also the book by, I think Gary Keller,

846
00:47:22,695 --> 00:47:23,955
I think is the guy that Keller say.

847
00:47:24,915 --> 00:47:28,815
So that's always, you know, as we've
really started to decide to grow this

848
00:47:28,815 --> 00:47:32,654
company, um, you know, something that.

849
00:47:33,150 --> 00:47:37,920
Has been important for me to learn the
business side because I, I've been a,

850
00:47:38,485 --> 00:47:43,590
a, a craftsman, you know, most of this
journey up until the last few years.

851
00:47:43,590 --> 00:47:49,710
So, and then a associated of mine,
a friend of mine, he recommended

852
00:47:49,710 --> 00:47:54,300
this book Traction probably a
year and a half, two years ago.

853
00:47:54,660 --> 00:47:58,650
And I'll be honest, I, I was listening
to it and I got about 30 minutes in.

854
00:47:58,650 --> 00:48:00,600
I'm like, this is rookie shit.

855
00:48:00,605 --> 00:48:01,290
I don't need this.

856
00:48:01,770 --> 00:48:02,910
We're way past this.

857
00:48:02,910 --> 00:48:04,350
We have these things in place.

858
00:48:05,009 --> 00:48:06,210
So I didn't listen to it.

859
00:48:06,750 --> 00:48:07,590
I didn't finish it.

860
00:48:07,710 --> 00:48:13,680
And then, um, and we had a, a cash flow
issue towards the end of last year.

861
00:48:14,310 --> 00:48:20,850
That was a scary moment for, for me
and, and my wife and all of us here.

862
00:48:20,910 --> 00:48:25,140
Um, and I circled back to traction.

863
00:48:25,470 --> 00:48:26,460
I'm like, oh my God.

864
00:48:26,670 --> 00:48:28,230
Like, whoa, whoa.

865
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:29,130
Back up Dan.

866
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:31,740
We have so far to go.

867
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:38,759
And so yeah, just probably in the last
couple months, um, getting serious,

868
00:48:38,759 --> 00:48:43,980
working with our coach in terms of him,
um, putting kind of the structure together

869
00:48:43,980 --> 00:48:46,650
to kind of lead our, our team with this.

870
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:51,990
Um, and we have a dashboard built out
and so yeah, we work, we work with

871
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:54,180
him and we just started digging in.

872
00:48:54,840 --> 00:49:00,600
Um, so yeah, that's, I'd say,
yeah, end of the, by the end of

873
00:49:00,605 --> 00:49:02,730
the first quarter, I think the 24.

874
00:49:02,730 --> 00:49:07,860
We wanna have found a, some rhythm to it,
you know, the, the meeting, um, meeting

875
00:49:07,860 --> 00:49:11,490
rhythm and just getting digging in.

876
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,779
We've always done, like I said,
we've always had some form of this

877
00:49:15,779 --> 00:49:17,580
through our coach that we work with.

878
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:23,310
Um, but I think, you know, really
excited with this exact structure because

879
00:49:23,315 --> 00:49:25,950
it really, I traction in that red.

880
00:49:25,950 --> 00:49:29,460
What the heck is EOS, you know, you
have where you guide to traction.

881
00:49:30,210 --> 00:49:36,300
And it's really just a,
an easy format to follow.

882
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:38,370
And so that's what I
really liked about it.

883
00:49:38,610 --> 00:49:42,390
Some of these business books and,
and, and theories and all that stuff,

884
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:48,390
can, it can just get, it can get
too deep almost in this, something

885
00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:51,600
about the way EO put together Yes.

886
00:49:51,605 --> 00:49:53,165
Just makes it really chewable.

887
00:49:53,465 --> 00:49:56,670
Um, so yeah, that, that's
where we're at with it.

888
00:49:56,670 --> 00:49:56,970
Pete,

889
00:49:57,780 --> 00:50:03,600
what do you, uh, as an owner and having
read the book myself and apply it to

890
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,980
many different businesses, but in your,
how do you apply it to your business?

891
00:50:07,980 --> 00:50:12,810
Do you have an idea of what people
are gonna be in those seats and

892
00:50:13,650 --> 00:50:15,450
who's gonna be leading those teams?

893
00:50:15,455 --> 00:50:15,545
Yeah.

894
00:50:16,410 --> 00:50:19,770
Well, we already have, you know, we
have a, we have an organizational chart.

895
00:50:19,770 --> 00:50:23,640
We've had one for a number of years, and
it gets updated as more people come on.

896
00:50:23,820 --> 00:50:27,265
Um, you know, everybody's, most
everybody's got a job description.

897
00:50:28,140 --> 00:50:33,060
Um, so it's, it's taking what we already
have in place, um, and kind of filtering

898
00:50:33,060 --> 00:50:39,630
it through, you know, the EOS, you know,
that, that system, um, and tweaking what

899
00:50:39,630 --> 00:50:42,780
we already have in place, basically.

900
00:50:43,170 --> 00:50:49,740
But I think the, what I'm really
looking forward to is finding a rhythm

901
00:50:49,740 --> 00:50:54,720
to actually solving, you know, some
of these challenges that we face.

902
00:50:55,110 --> 00:50:58,740
There's so much that happens in
our, you know, our managers being,

903
00:50:58,740 --> 00:51:00,210
we talk about these things, right?

904
00:51:00,215 --> 00:51:04,350
And there's a lot of talk and,
but getting it implemented,

905
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,620
um, has always been a struggle.

906
00:51:07,890 --> 00:51:12,030
Um, and we've had a lot of successes, but,
you know, a lot of times we have a lot

907
00:51:12,030 --> 00:51:13,740
of failures in, in some of this as well.

908
00:51:13,740 --> 00:51:18,930
So I think for me it's the format of
it, um, taking what we already have

909
00:51:18,930 --> 00:51:21,720
in place, uh, like our company values.

910
00:51:21,780 --> 00:51:24,240
I'm just going through
again and reevaluating.

911
00:51:24,630 --> 00:51:27,120
We don't have a defined mission.

912
00:51:27,525 --> 00:51:33,345
You know, um, so that's another
one that I'm, I'm excited to, you

913
00:51:33,345 --> 00:51:35,985
know, put down, put down on paper.

914
00:51:36,315 --> 00:51:39,375
You know, I have, it's in my
head and how we get that out.

915
00:51:40,425 --> 00:51:40,965
So,

916
00:51:41,505 --> 00:51:44,925
um, that's a, that's a fun one to
always try to articulate after so many

917
00:51:44,925 --> 00:51:46,485
years in the, the business, right?

918
00:51:46,695 --> 00:51:46,930
Like, yeah.

919
00:51:47,355 --> 00:51:50,835
When you're first starting out, you
don't really realize like, hey, like

920
00:51:50,835 --> 00:51:52,275
you're driven by something, right?

921
00:51:52,275 --> 00:51:52,485
Yeah.

922
00:51:52,545 --> 00:51:57,615
But like, when you have 28 people on
staff, or you have 50 people, like,

923
00:51:57,615 --> 00:52:01,634
that mission becomes like the, the
underlying driver of, of just about

924
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:02,985
everything that you guys do, right?

925
00:52:02,985 --> 00:52:04,125
It's gotta come back to that.

926
00:52:04,575 --> 00:52:04,815
Yeah.

927
00:52:04,815 --> 00:52:09,255
And it, it's, you know, the other thing
too is just, is ultimately getting a

928
00:52:09,255 --> 00:52:14,085
hundred percent clarity on, on what we
do want, what the future does look like.

929
00:52:14,355 --> 00:52:21,495
Uh, you know, I, you know, there's a, a
very common conversation with the company

930
00:52:21,495 --> 00:52:27,134
is as a goal of $10 million a year, but
then also I'm like, well, what, what is.

931
00:52:27,525 --> 00:52:28,904
Why is that the goal?

932
00:52:29,205 --> 00:52:30,165
You know, why is it 10?

933
00:52:30,195 --> 00:52:35,895
What's magic about 10 million versus
doing the type of work we wanna do, having

934
00:52:35,895 --> 00:52:37,665
the profit margins that we wanna have.

935
00:52:38,265 --> 00:52:42,404
Um, you know, because when, when
you have that, that trifecta of,

936
00:52:43,140 --> 00:52:45,765
um, are you the best around at it?

937
00:52:45,884 --> 00:52:50,295
Um, are you passionate about it and are
you making money doing it, then what

938
00:52:50,415 --> 00:52:53,080
more really do you need in the end?

939
00:52:53,475 --> 00:52:58,185
Um, and so that's a, that's a thing
that I have to get clear on, you know,

940
00:52:58,185 --> 00:53:03,075
my wife and I is, what do we want
out of this, you know, five years,

941
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:04,755
10 years, 15 years down the road?

942
00:53:05,325 --> 00:53:09,495
Um, so we can really get, get clear
and get everybody in line with that.

943
00:53:09,945 --> 00:53:16,995
We already do have client classifications,
um, C through A plus through C.

944
00:53:17,025 --> 00:53:21,735
We have S type classifications
that we, we put together as well,

945
00:53:21,735 --> 00:53:24,555
so we can start to understand.

946
00:53:25,305 --> 00:53:25,665
Okay.

947
00:53:25,665 --> 00:53:29,774
So, you know, we know the type
of clients we wanna work with.

948
00:53:29,865 --> 00:53:33,044
How many of those clients
do we actually work with?

949
00:53:33,584 --> 00:53:36,015
Uh, we know the type of
signs we want to build.

950
00:53:36,584 --> 00:53:41,625
Um, how many of those signs are we
building and, and are we profitable,

951
00:53:41,834 --> 00:53:43,424
you know, with those types of signs?

952
00:53:44,265 --> 00:53:47,685
And the interesting thing is the
ones that we enjoy the most doing

953
00:53:47,685 --> 00:53:50,790
for the most part, are the ones
that we're the most profitable and

954
00:53:50,810 --> 00:53:55,484
yet we continue to take work that
we're not terribly interested in.

955
00:53:55,935 --> 00:54:01,995
Um, you know, so there, it's all part of
what I'm excited about onboarding, EO Ss,

956
00:54:01,995 --> 00:54:05,354
we have all this great data collected.

957
00:54:05,415 --> 00:54:09,584
We haven't done much to arrange it.

958
00:54:10,125 --> 00:54:13,305
So the other one I'm
excited about is scorecard.

959
00:54:14,625 --> 00:54:18,975
Uh, what type of information we're
gonna be, um, putting together for that.

960
00:54:18,975 --> 00:54:21,770
So, so, yeah, I think, uh, man,

961
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:22,290
yeah.

962
00:54:22,725 --> 00:54:24,375
Lots of stuff to unpack there.

963
00:54:24,464 --> 00:54:24,850
Uh, yes.

964
00:54:25,875 --> 00:54:28,875
Hey, I, I love the mindset
of like, like, hey, why, why

965
00:54:28,875 --> 00:54:30,075
do we need to hit 10 million?

966
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,825
Because it is, it is almost that
same treadmill that we have on

967
00:54:33,825 --> 00:54:35,174
like the consumer side of it.

968
00:54:35,174 --> 00:54:37,365
Like, Hey, we want a bigger
house, we want a better car.

969
00:54:37,365 --> 00:54:38,174
We want all this stuff.

970
00:54:38,174 --> 00:54:41,234
But like, you apply that so many
owners that we talk to apply

971
00:54:41,234 --> 00:54:45,134
it to business as well of like,
Hey, I gotta get to a million.

972
00:54:45,194 --> 00:54:48,015
What do you, are you just gonna
stop when you get to a million?

973
00:54:48,015 --> 00:54:51,075
Like, are, are, what happens the
day you hit a million dollars

974
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,009
in sales in your sign shop?

975
00:54:52,245 --> 00:54:55,904
Do you just automatically go in
confetti falls from the sky and

976
00:54:55,904 --> 00:54:57,254
everything is gravy at that point?

977
00:54:57,765 --> 00:54:59,535
No, it's, it's more of the same, right?

978
00:54:59,540 --> 00:54:59,690
Yeah.

979
00:55:00,375 --> 00:55:01,754
It's the, it's the next step.

980
00:55:01,815 --> 00:55:03,404
So like, when, when is enough?

981
00:55:03,410 --> 00:55:03,855
Enough?

982
00:55:04,455 --> 00:55:06,375
Um, and I'm glad to hear that you're.

983
00:55:07,110 --> 00:55:08,550
Like that's top of mind for you right now?

984
00:55:08,550 --> 00:55:08,760
Yeah.

985
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,120
What's, what, what really
is, is top of mind, you know?

986
00:55:12,180 --> 00:55:17,460
And, and as I have gone through and,
and re-looking at our, our company

987
00:55:17,465 --> 00:55:23,580
values, um, and rearranging, first
and foremost is, is we have fun.

988
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,350
And number two is we are profitable.

989
00:55:25,500 --> 00:55:29,190
And that is the mo I we need to have fun.

990
00:55:29,310 --> 00:55:34,590
And I think a lot of times, well,
for us it's just the last couple

991
00:55:34,590 --> 00:55:42,330
years anyway, um, you know, letting
that, uh, that business because

992
00:55:42,330 --> 00:55:43,410
you need the numbers, right?

993
00:55:43,415 --> 00:55:46,920
Like Peter's saying, you need,
need to understand your company.

994
00:55:47,070 --> 00:55:54,510
And, um, that in all, in all honesty,
was something that I never imagined that

995
00:55:54,510 --> 00:55:56,460
I would have to be paying attention to.

996
00:55:56,460 --> 00:55:59,340
I was gonna have a couple persons
sign up and that was that.

997
00:55:59,695 --> 00:56:06,270
And so there's been, you know, a lot of
stress, you know, over the last few years.

998
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:12,570
One thing that's been been interesting
that I've been learning about myself

999
00:56:12,570 --> 00:56:16,561
is, and this is just in the last couple
months, and, you know, I don't, I

1000
00:56:16,566 --> 00:56:20,250
don't want to be a, a Debbie Downer,
but my father-in-Law passed away,

1001
00:56:20,430 --> 00:56:22,830
um, fairly recently and unexpectedly.

1002
00:56:22,835 --> 00:56:28,470
And he was this, oddly enough assigned
painter, um, had his own shop, and

1003
00:56:28,470 --> 00:56:34,350
it, there was a, it was a, pardon my
French, but like, chill the fuck out.

1004
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:35,310
Like what?

1005
00:56:35,610 --> 00:56:37,410
Like, have fun.

1006
00:56:37,415 --> 00:56:38,790
Look at the industry you're in.

1007
00:56:38,795 --> 00:56:41,190
Look what you get to do on a daily basis.

1008
00:56:41,790 --> 00:56:44,790
And so how are we getting our
team aligned with that too?

1009
00:56:44,790 --> 00:56:46,950
Because everybody cares so much, right?

1010
00:56:46,980 --> 00:56:49,440
But when a shit hits the
fan, it's just, it's ugh.

1011
00:56:50,610 --> 00:56:55,290
But we've always figured out a, a solution
to every problem that we've run into.

1012
00:56:56,010 --> 00:57:00,030
We have managed to make our
customers happy most every time.

1013
00:57:00,540 --> 00:57:02,670
Um, like, we'll figure it out.

1014
00:57:03,134 --> 00:57:06,225
So what's been interesting is, is
I have been working more on the

1015
00:57:06,285 --> 00:57:07,904
business in the last couple years.

1016
00:57:08,535 --> 00:57:13,125
Just in the last couple months I've been
like, had to go out and I did some reverse

1017
00:57:13,815 --> 00:57:18,465
hand painted lettering on glass for a
customer on their storefront windows.

1018
00:57:18,585 --> 00:57:23,865
Um, I was in the shop building sign
over the weekend last fabricated

1019
00:57:24,255 --> 00:57:26,715
aluminum neon hand lettering.

1020
00:57:27,555 --> 00:57:32,654
When I get to do the thing that I got
into this for and get to have that

1021
00:57:32,660 --> 00:57:36,705
outlet, my mind, it's cathartic for me.

1022
00:57:37,095 --> 00:57:44,205
And so I now 24, I need that
because when my mind can, it

1023
00:57:44,205 --> 00:57:45,884
becomes a zen moment for me.

1024
00:57:45,884 --> 00:57:50,445
Not to sound corny, but if I'm
lettering a sign, I'm not thinking

1025
00:57:50,565 --> 00:57:52,275
about anything in that moment.

1026
00:57:52,305 --> 00:57:53,924
You know, I'm listening to a podcast room,

1027
00:57:54,465 --> 00:57:55,904
everything else shuts off.

1028
00:57:55,904 --> 00:57:56,295
Yeah.

1029
00:57:56,595 --> 00:58:00,525
And the, the quality of my
decision making increases.

1030
00:58:01,050 --> 00:58:03,180
I'm able to show up better for my team.

1031
00:58:03,930 --> 00:58:09,090
Um, so that's, uh, I know I kind
of diverted a little bit, but that

1032
00:58:09,090 --> 00:58:14,010
working back in the business, which
I think in some ways is a little

1033
00:58:14,010 --> 00:58:16,440
bit of like, what do you mean you
gotta, you're going backwards.

1034
00:58:16,470 --> 00:58:17,430
No, I'm not.

1035
00:58:17,430 --> 00:58:18,150
I need that.

1036
00:58:18,180 --> 00:58:19,080
I need that outlet.

1037
00:58:19,710 --> 00:58:26,340
So if I can get 10 hours a week in
the shop or out in the field, um, that

1038
00:58:26,340 --> 00:58:30,120
has, and also it's, you know, quite
frankly to let the people know in

1039
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:31,650
the shop that I can build signs too.

1040
00:58:32,010 --> 00:58:36,120
I'm not just the guy
sitting in the office still,

1041
00:58:36,125 --> 00:58:36,990
still got it.

1042
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,640
So I, I think it like this, that
self-awareness man is crucial.

1043
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,670
And, and like, how many guys
have we talked to in, in the

1044
00:58:44,675 --> 00:58:46,020
group, Pete, that are like.

1045
00:58:46,755 --> 00:58:49,185
Hey, I need all these processes.

1046
00:58:49,185 --> 00:58:52,125
I, I need to learn how
to be a better manager.

1047
00:58:52,215 --> 00:58:52,875
Yeah.

1048
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,085
And, and it's just like, you know,
I, I've talked to several guys that

1049
00:58:56,085 --> 00:58:59,384
are like, Hey, I need to, to figure
this side of the business out.

1050
00:58:59,384 --> 00:59:03,705
Like, I, I need to, Hey, there's been
several people that we're gonna buy

1051
00:59:04,035 --> 00:59:07,005
a franchise just for the processes
side of it that I've talked to.

1052
00:59:07,095 --> 00:59:07,335
Yeah.

1053
00:59:07,455 --> 00:59:10,545
Like they've already got a successful
business, but they're getting ran over

1054
00:59:10,545 --> 00:59:13,245
by it and at, and at some level, right.

1055
00:59:13,995 --> 00:59:18,134
You're, it's okay to not be like,
Hey, I'm not a middle manager or

1056
00:59:18,134 --> 00:59:19,905
I'm not an operations manager.

1057
00:59:19,935 --> 00:59:24,945
Like, you can admit that to yourself, but
it's, and you could be okay with, like,

1058
00:59:25,515 --> 00:59:31,065
you've taken the steps, like you've gone
full circle and now you'd know for, for

1059
00:59:31,065 --> 00:59:35,535
my stress levels, for, for me personally
and for me to be a better owner, like

1060
00:59:35,540 --> 00:59:39,285
I, I need, I need to get my hands
dirty once in a while, and that's okay.

1061
00:59:39,285 --> 00:59:39,495
Right?

1062
00:59:39,585 --> 00:59:39,705
Yeah.

1063
00:59:39,975 --> 00:59:44,145
But you, you've also got the other
pieces in place to be able to do that.

1064
00:59:44,460 --> 00:59:48,960
And the, the message here that I would
say to everybody is like, if you have

1065
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,500
the self-awareness to know, like,
yes, I'm the owner of this business.

1066
00:59:52,500 --> 00:59:56,220
Yes, I still love to make signs,
but I, I don't necessarily

1067
00:59:56,220 --> 00:59:58,320
want to be a the manager.

1068
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:00,180
Like, I don't wanna manage the whole team.

1069
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:01,860
Like, it's okay.

1070
01:00:01,890 --> 01:00:05,970
Like, yeah, hire somebody to
manage operations, like take

1071
01:00:05,970 --> 01:00:07,380
steps towards that person.

1072
01:00:07,380 --> 01:00:11,010
Don't just spin your wheels and say, Hey,
I need to get better about processes.

1073
01:00:11,340 --> 01:00:15,630
Like, if you know yourself well,
you know, hey, and you know you're

1074
01:00:15,630 --> 01:00:16,830
not gonna make progress on it.

1075
01:00:16,830 --> 01:00:17,940
Hire a coach, you know.

1076
01:00:17,945 --> 01:00:20,700
When did, when did you guys
start working with a coach Dan?

1077
01:00:20,850 --> 01:00:21,540
Um,

1078
01:00:22,110 --> 01:00:24,120
I think this probably five years ago now.

1079
01:00:24,180 --> 01:00:25,170
Four or five years ago.

1080
01:00:25,350 --> 01:00:28,590
Um, it was a, well no god time.

1081
01:00:29,130 --> 01:00:31,560
There's, I don't know about you
guys, but it's about a two year

1082
01:00:31,620 --> 01:00:34,470
vacuum and time from about.

1083
01:00:35,175 --> 01:00:39,285
Late 20 19, 20 20 to 2022 ish.

1084
01:00:40,095 --> 01:00:44,385
Um, so yeah, probably five years ago now
we started working with a coach and that

1085
01:00:44,385 --> 01:00:47,505
was through, um, the One thing podcast.

1086
01:00:47,505 --> 01:00:51,495
So I reached out through their format
or through, you know, whatever, one

1087
01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:55,995
of the links I've been podcast and got
connected with, with Dave, Dave Goodall.

1088
01:00:56,805 --> 01:01:01,755
And so, yeah, that's, you know, that's
kind of when it all really got momentum.

1089
01:01:01,905 --> 01:01:06,585
You know, I wrote like a manifesto
on the customer experience.

1090
01:01:06,585 --> 01:01:08,925
I remember digging in on, in, in, on that.

1091
01:01:09,045 --> 01:01:12,870
And really kind of, that was
kind of the start of, of, of it.

1092
01:01:13,035 --> 01:01:18,345
And then, uh, also my dad
worked here for about six years.

1093
01:01:18,495 --> 01:01:24,525
Um, and he's got a business background
and, and leading up to that, you know,

1094
01:01:24,525 --> 01:01:28,485
he, we'd meet once a month, he'd come up
to the shop and we'd talk about things.

1095
01:01:28,485 --> 01:01:33,045
So all that, you know, developing
the business side of it.

1096
01:01:33,674 --> 01:01:36,915
I said I was probably seven, eight
years old, 6, 7, 8 years old.

1097
01:01:37,575 --> 01:01:42,075
And that was really my core focus and
every day further and further away

1098
01:01:42,075 --> 01:01:45,975
from building science, from designing
science, from being out in the field.

1099
01:01:45,975 --> 01:01:49,634
And, and that's the
natural progression, right?

1100
01:01:49,904 --> 01:01:55,515
Of, of, you know, becoming more of
a leader, um, and showing up for

1101
01:01:55,515 --> 01:01:59,444
your people in that regard versus,
you know, being a, a technician.

1102
01:02:00,585 --> 01:02:05,865
But like I said, I'm finding that I
need that outlet that's really, I'd

1103
01:02:05,865 --> 01:02:07,424
like to make things with my hands.

1104
01:02:07,424 --> 01:02:11,805
That's what, you know, what, what brings
me the greatest amount of, greatest

1105
01:02:11,805 --> 01:02:19,064
amount of satisfaction and allows me
to be better for my people and show up

1106
01:02:19,064 --> 01:02:24,674
because I, you know, I'm a, I've got
high expectations and, um, you know,

1107
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:29,250
so having that outlet has been, or,
or realizing that I need that outlet,

1108
01:02:29,475 --> 01:02:32,055
I guess as of late, um, has been.

1109
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:33,840
Been good.

1110
01:02:34,380 --> 01:02:34,799
Definitely.

1111
01:02:35,205 --> 01:02:35,495
Yeah.

1112
01:02:36,150 --> 01:02:36,810
That's great, man.

1113
01:02:37,230 --> 01:02:40,410
Well, I was just gonna say the other
thing too about process, right?

1114
01:02:40,470 --> 01:02:46,049
Um, the other day I've just kind of
like, there, there is a time when the

1115
01:02:46,049 --> 01:02:49,980
process should be and can be diverted.

1116
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:56,580
And when we built such rigid walls
everywhere, um, process can, at

1117
01:02:56,580 --> 01:03:00,810
times I feel, anyway I've learned is
it can stifle, it can make it more

1118
01:03:00,810 --> 01:03:03,840
inefficient, um, in certain ways.

1119
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:11,730
And so that's another big push in 24 is
how do we define, you know, when, when

1120
01:03:11,730 --> 01:03:13,590
are we gonna script the process, right?

1121
01:03:13,590 --> 01:03:20,610
Because our, this company is so built
and tuned around, you know, and more

1122
01:03:20,610 --> 01:03:25,890
complex fabrication type projects,
you know, so when like a door vinyl

1123
01:03:26,100 --> 01:03:31,259
job comes in, it's like, you know,
like we're a, we're a battleship.

1124
01:03:32,175 --> 01:03:35,925
Going down a little creek, it just
doesn't, you know, that offset

1125
01:03:35,925 --> 01:03:37,215
doesn't, it's a good analogy.

1126
01:03:37,215 --> 01:03:39,855
Doesn't work, uh, all that well.

1127
01:03:40,365 --> 01:03:44,565
You know, and then at times, you
know, I think process can be used

1128
01:03:44,565 --> 01:03:48,975
to like, you're doing it wrong,
you know, follow the process.

1129
01:03:49,455 --> 01:03:51,945
And so where's the balance in all that?

1130
01:03:51,945 --> 01:03:56,085
And I think that's something that I'm
eager, 'cause we've gotten so almost

1131
01:03:56,085 --> 01:04:01,455
robotic in, in certain ways, um,
that that can bite you the ass too.

1132
01:04:01,695 --> 01:04:05,445
You know, if you're not, if you're so
rigid all the time and you, you can't be

1133
01:04:05,445 --> 01:04:07,575
a little bit flexible when you need to be.

1134
01:04:08,445 --> 01:04:11,985
You know, that can make things
not as, as far as they could be.

1135
01:04:12,615 --> 01:04:12,885
A former

1136
01:04:12,885 --> 01:04:16,665
colleague of mine, uh, Don, I don't know
if you're listening to this, but she

1137
01:04:16,670 --> 01:04:19,095
used to say there was the processes.

1138
01:04:19,740 --> 01:04:24,060
Then there was the process for managing
the processes and knowing like when

1139
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:30,330
shit needs to go or when to, you know,
create new processes, adapt those things.

1140
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:35,549
And I, I definitely agree with you
because like, I love systems and

1141
01:04:35,549 --> 01:04:40,020
processes like, but like, if it doesn't
make sense to me, like I just, I,

1142
01:04:40,109 --> 01:04:41,670
like I don't adhere to it at all.

1143
01:04:41,790 --> 01:04:42,330
I know

1144
01:04:42,390 --> 01:04:43,650
that that's, yeah.

1145
01:04:43,650 --> 01:04:46,920
And then I'll get, you know,
and we'll develop this thing.

1146
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:50,220
Everybody will have their input and
then we'll, we'll make the bible,

1147
01:04:50,220 --> 01:04:54,870
whatever the thing is, is it a tweak
on a change order process or warranty

1148
01:04:54,870 --> 01:04:56,970
or, or service jobs or whatever.

1149
01:04:57,299 --> 01:05:03,569
And then something will land in my lap
with some, say it's a, something that

1150
01:05:03,575 --> 01:05:07,170
might require, uh, a warranty card.

1151
01:05:07,170 --> 01:05:08,819
We'll call it warranty
card, because we use Trello.

1152
01:05:08,850 --> 01:05:10,740
So there's the card, the card thing.

1153
01:05:11,279 --> 01:05:15,420
Um, and I'm like, no, we
don't need to set up the card.

1154
01:05:15,450 --> 01:05:16,740
It's five minutes.

1155
01:05:16,799 --> 01:05:18,210
Someone's in the area.

1156
01:05:18,825 --> 01:05:22,245
I noticed that a screw backed out
on a panel sign on the outside

1157
01:05:22,250 --> 01:05:26,055
of the building, just put a note
together so they know what to do.

1158
01:05:26,210 --> 01:05:29,235
But we do not need to filter this
through three different people.

1159
01:05:29,235 --> 01:05:32,685
Our accountant doesn't need
to like do a journal entry to

1160
01:05:32,690 --> 01:05:34,455
build a warranty to field ops.

1161
01:05:34,485 --> 01:05:37,455
It's just, we'll take
five minutes, you know?

1162
01:05:37,485 --> 01:05:38,654
So it's like that kind of stuff.

1163
01:05:38,654 --> 01:05:45,525
How do we, how do we, we find, how do
you, how do you map it out too, so that

1164
01:05:45,525 --> 01:05:47,444
there's some consistency, you know?

1165
01:05:47,865 --> 01:05:51,134
But Pete, what are you, what are
your, you know, I, I know that from

1166
01:05:51,134 --> 01:05:55,455
listening to podcasts, you, 'cause
you also do consulting work for

1167
01:05:55,515 --> 01:05:57,015
other sign companies as well, right?

1168
01:05:57,015 --> 01:06:00,765
And, and some of this world we're
talking about right now, you know,

1169
01:06:00,975 --> 01:06:06,375
that that delineation between the
process and the follow the process.

1170
01:06:06,525 --> 01:06:09,165
But when does it make sense
and when doesn't, and you know,

1171
01:06:09,674 --> 01:06:12,015
it's something that we've run up
against, certainly challenges.

1172
01:06:12,020 --> 01:06:14,865
'cause then people are like, this
is a process she must follow.

1173
01:06:16,390 --> 01:06:16,690
You know,

1174
01:06:17,175 --> 01:06:23,810
uh, let me give, let me give you
my two, two answers to that, okay?

1175
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:24,490
Okay.

1176
01:06:24,495 --> 01:06:29,175
Um, if you were one of my clients and you
came to me with, we have some processes.

1177
01:06:29,180 --> 01:06:30,195
We have Trello.

1178
01:06:30,615 --> 01:06:32,595
God, I hate Trello, but it is what

1179
01:06:32,595 --> 01:06:35,565
it is, but best we got, right?

1180
01:06:36,150 --> 01:06:38,685
So it's, it's so freaking

1181
01:06:38,685 --> 01:06:38,970
easy to use.

1182
01:06:39,405 --> 01:06:40,635
It's super easy to use.

1183
01:06:40,635 --> 01:06:41,775
It is super easy to use.

1184
01:06:41,775 --> 01:06:42,495
And you know what?

1185
01:06:42,610 --> 01:06:45,435
I, I, I just, I, it is what it is.

1186
01:06:45,465 --> 01:06:46,995
It's not a big deal, but you're

1187
01:06:46,995 --> 01:06:50,205
using, it's better than our paper
tickets that we had on the wall.

1188
01:06:50,310 --> 01:06:50,530
You

1189
01:06:50,530 --> 01:06:50,770
know what?

1190
01:06:51,435 --> 01:06:52,335
I will agree with that.

1191
01:06:52,365 --> 01:06:55,695
It's better than your plastic
jackets and, and pen and paper.

1192
01:06:55,695 --> 01:06:56,805
So I will agree with that.

1193
01:06:57,465 --> 01:07:03,315
If you have a process that identifies
what happens when this happens, okay?

1194
01:07:03,675 --> 01:07:03,885
Yep.

1195
01:07:03,970 --> 01:07:09,075
So, so I, uh, gosh, you, you
kind of, you kind of took me by

1196
01:07:09,075 --> 01:07:11,685
surprise with this question, so
I'm gonna kind of go backwards.

1197
01:07:12,015 --> 01:07:13,905
What I would say to you is that in my.

1198
01:07:14,384 --> 01:07:18,674
Process by which I would
help you create in your shop.

1199
01:07:19,245 --> 01:07:25,365
There would be at some point a divide,
a front of the house conversation

1200
01:07:25,365 --> 01:07:27,134
and a back of the house conversation.

1201
01:07:27,549 --> 01:07:27,839
Sure.

1202
01:07:27,884 --> 01:07:30,645
And then your process,
your process is built.

1203
01:07:30,649 --> 01:07:33,734
Like when a lead comes in, you
know, this person is handling

1204
01:07:33,734 --> 01:07:35,924
it, what is the call to action?

1205
01:07:35,924 --> 01:07:38,865
What is the appropriate
action for who is taking it?

1206
01:07:38,865 --> 01:07:42,285
And that's going to lead
into like an EOS question.

1207
01:07:42,345 --> 01:07:44,685
You know, like, who's gonna
handle that responsibility?

1208
01:07:45,165 --> 01:07:47,774
What are the unit of
measures for that individual?

1209
01:07:47,774 --> 01:07:53,745
What is their, what is their, uh,
record of performance going to be?

1210
01:07:53,805 --> 01:07:55,395
How many appointments
do they need to make?

1211
01:07:55,395 --> 01:07:57,615
How many phone calls do they need to make?

1212
01:07:57,615 --> 01:07:59,174
How many dials do they need to have?

1213
01:07:59,654 --> 01:08:00,104
What have you?

1214
01:08:00,104 --> 01:08:00,194
Sure.

1215
01:08:00,765 --> 01:08:05,415
But when you're architecting the,
the workflow of this, which is how

1216
01:08:05,415 --> 01:08:09,165
I would recommend doing it, I would
actually, uh, Brian and I do this a lot.

1217
01:08:09,165 --> 01:08:13,484
We, we, we, we get like a Figma
account and we start mapping out like.

1218
01:08:14,145 --> 01:08:19,484
The architecture of a, of a workflow
in shapes and colors and arrows and

1219
01:08:19,484 --> 01:08:22,484
all sorts of yes, no logic, right?

1220
01:08:22,904 --> 01:08:25,844
When this happens, this is what's
going to happen When it doesn't,

1221
01:08:25,904 --> 01:08:27,314
this is what happens next.

1222
01:08:27,434 --> 01:08:29,865
This is the campaign that
they get thrown into.

1223
01:08:30,165 --> 01:08:33,585
This is this, this is the
drip campaign that we do.

1224
01:08:33,585 --> 01:08:39,045
This is how we text the customer, like we
infuse marketing over operations so that

1225
01:08:39,045 --> 01:08:41,925
it works in unison with your operation.

1226
01:08:42,764 --> 01:08:47,144
So that's the backstory of, of, of
what I would tell you to do in terms

1227
01:08:47,149 --> 01:08:51,554
of building out your processes, but a
little bit more just quick overview.

1228
01:08:52,154 --> 01:08:56,835
But in the instance where a customer calls
and says, Hey, I need something done.

1229
01:08:56,835 --> 01:09:00,285
Doesn't really matter what it
is, that takes five minutes.

1230
01:09:00,855 --> 01:09:06,525
That is a, to me, that gets handled
in the first step of your process that

1231
01:09:06,525 --> 01:09:10,935
doesn't make its way to three people, that
makes its way to the first person that

1232
01:09:10,935 --> 01:09:15,825
qualifies the customer, that qualifies
the want or need of that individual

1233
01:09:15,855 --> 01:09:19,245
and communicates it to the right
department head to handle the project.

1234
01:09:19,635 --> 01:09:23,805
It doesn't need to have its own jacket,
it doesn't need to have its own workflow.

1235
01:09:23,805 --> 01:09:28,815
It may mean you stopping there on
the way home, on the way, uh, to your

1236
01:09:28,820 --> 01:09:31,455
home at the end of the day, and I.

1237
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,819
With a screw gun and taking care of that
one little screw that's loose, right?

1238
01:09:36,029 --> 01:09:38,370
It, that, that might be what it is.

1239
01:09:38,370 --> 01:09:42,300
And it never needs to make its
way into the ecosystem, but it

1240
01:09:42,390 --> 01:09:44,069
does need to be communicated.

1241
01:09:44,069 --> 01:09:49,500
So the challenge would be, is it getting
communicated to the right individual?

1242
01:09:49,890 --> 01:09:51,600
That's, that's the winning ticket.

1243
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:55,320
That's the process by which your,
the person, when your phone rings

1244
01:09:55,440 --> 01:09:58,230
ring, ring, hi, this is Peter.

1245
01:09:58,590 --> 01:09:59,430
Yes, yes.

1246
01:09:59,435 --> 01:10:00,540
We make that sign.

1247
01:10:00,540 --> 01:10:02,370
No, we don't make that sign.

1248
01:10:02,550 --> 01:10:03,960
Yes, you are a customer.

1249
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:05,310
I wanna make happy.

1250
01:10:05,315 --> 01:10:06,960
No, you're not a customer.

1251
01:10:06,965 --> 01:10:07,860
I wanna make happy.

1252
01:10:08,100 --> 01:10:14,220
That is the, that person doesn't hand it
to the next individual without qualifying.

1253
01:10:14,220 --> 01:10:18,630
That lead, that qualifying that,
that, that, that opportunity.

1254
01:10:19,530 --> 01:10:19,830
Okay.

1255
01:10:19,830 --> 01:10:22,170
So to me that's in your process.

1256
01:10:22,170 --> 01:10:22,230
I.

1257
01:10:22,470 --> 01:10:26,970
Which I don't know much about, but that
is where that problem would be handled.

1258
01:10:27,059 --> 01:10:29,160
It handled at that very first point.

1259
01:10:29,639 --> 01:10:32,880
Oh my God, I got, I got my
sign just blew out of the face.

1260
01:10:32,940 --> 01:10:35,730
Uh, we, okay, that's
something I need to address.

1261
01:10:36,179 --> 01:10:37,530
That's, Hey, I've been there.

1262
01:10:37,620 --> 01:10:38,970
I've been, that's a
little more than a screw.

1263
01:10:38,970 --> 01:10:40,200
I've been, that's more than a screw.

1264
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:40,710
That's than a screw.

1265
01:10:40,845 --> 01:10:41,280
I've been there.

1266
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:45,090
But that, but I'm using that
as an example for a reason.

1267
01:10:45,150 --> 01:10:50,040
That would definitely require
another card, another jacket,

1268
01:10:50,099 --> 01:10:53,400
another team meeting, what have you.

1269
01:10:53,790 --> 01:10:58,170
Hi, my sign appears to have a screw loose.

1270
01:10:58,380 --> 01:11:00,030
Can you come and fix it?

1271
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:04,470
Is something that does not
need to go through the workflow

1272
01:11:04,530 --> 01:11:06,870
of your, of your standardized

1273
01:11:06,870 --> 01:11:07,530
process.

1274
01:11:07,980 --> 01:11:08,639
Yeah.

1275
01:11:08,639 --> 01:11:15,030
And that's where I think the,
the challenge obviously is the

1276
01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:16,290
process that we have in place.

1277
01:11:16,290 --> 01:11:21,809
And we do, um, you know, every
new inquiry does get qualified.

1278
01:11:22,170 --> 01:11:24,630
So we have that, that
type of stuff in place.

1279
01:11:24,630 --> 01:11:31,559
So it's more along the way, uh, how
do we define this in a way that makes

1280
01:11:31,559 --> 01:11:36,300
sense so that in the end you have,
we have clarity and we're not gonna,

1281
01:11:36,510 --> 01:11:37,620
we're not gonna lose money on it.

1282
01:11:37,860 --> 01:11:43,245
Like what Those are the two, like you
need the information and information.

1283
01:11:43,250 --> 01:11:46,590
Can we get it done with the budget
that the client has or the, you

1284
01:11:46,590 --> 01:11:48,420
know, whatever the scenario may be.

1285
01:11:48,930 --> 01:11:50,670
And how do you define that?

1286
01:11:51,480 --> 01:11:56,700
You know, the if and when, um, you
know, if it, is it something like,

1287
01:11:56,730 --> 01:12:02,340
hey, if it, if, if, if it's a, if
it's not a net zero, what do they

1288
01:12:02,340 --> 01:12:04,110
call that in, like, emissions, right?

1289
01:12:04,110 --> 01:12:09,480
The, if it's not a, I don't know if
I'm, if this is gonna articulate net

1290
01:12:09,570 --> 01:12:15,750
zero carbon, zero, net zero at the end
of the, at the end of this particular

1291
01:12:15,750 --> 01:12:21,750
scenario, if you go through all the
process of creating a warranty card.

1292
01:12:22,215 --> 01:12:25,965
It's gotta get, we do, like, we bill
it, the warranty to a particular

1293
01:12:25,965 --> 01:12:28,725
department so we can track that
and understand what's going on.

1294
01:12:29,715 --> 01:12:34,815
If it needs to touch that many hands for a
five minute thing, how do you to find that

1295
01:12:34,815 --> 01:12:38,625
in a way so it's clear for, you know, the
people that are making these decisions.

1296
01:12:38,630 --> 01:12:40,035
And I think that's the tough part.

1297
01:12:40,035 --> 01:12:43,545
All the rigid process that we have
in place is there for a reason.

1298
01:12:43,545 --> 01:12:47,025
And when the process is followed,
for the most part it works.

1299
01:12:47,565 --> 01:12:47,775
But

1300
01:12:47,775 --> 01:12:50,145
these, I don't actually think
it's that, I don't think that

1301
01:12:50,150 --> 01:12:51,735
this part is that complicated.

1302
01:12:51,735 --> 01:12:55,365
This part is just taking
it, it, it really is you.

1303
01:12:55,485 --> 01:12:55,815
Right?

1304
01:12:55,815 --> 01:13:00,435
If you are the, the, the, the chef of
the kitchen, the captain of the ship

1305
01:13:01,215 --> 01:13:05,895
really does require you to sit down
and create a yes no chart, right?

1306
01:13:06,255 --> 01:13:06,495
Yeah.

1307
01:13:06,495 --> 01:13:07,695
Uh, we can call it whatever you want.

1308
01:13:07,695 --> 01:13:08,655
You call it a playbook.

1309
01:13:08,655 --> 01:13:11,685
You call it a manual, you call it,
you can, you put it into like a

1310
01:13:11,690 --> 01:13:16,305
tra type of setting if you want,
but it's really just a document.

1311
01:13:16,335 --> 01:13:18,075
This is the type of customer we want.

1312
01:13:18,945 --> 01:13:22,065
This is one that we, if we,
is it an existing client?

1313
01:13:22,065 --> 01:13:22,635
Yes or no?

1314
01:13:22,635 --> 01:13:26,385
If it's an existing client, we want
it, we want it to be qualified.

1315
01:13:26,565 --> 01:13:26,925
Right.

1316
01:13:26,925 --> 01:13:27,975
That's a simple answer.

1317
01:13:28,425 --> 01:13:31,995
So if it's somebody that bought a sign
from you that has an issue with your sign,

1318
01:13:32,115 --> 01:13:34,515
it needs to, this is a yes, this is a yes.

1319
01:13:34,515 --> 01:13:35,145
Pass through.

1320
01:13:36,045 --> 01:13:36,435
Right?

1321
01:13:36,435 --> 01:13:39,165
And where do all those challenges go to?

1322
01:13:39,165 --> 01:13:40,845
Does it go to a project manager?

1323
01:13:40,845 --> 01:13:42,735
Does it go to the directly to the owner?

1324
01:13:43,185 --> 01:13:48,105
Does it go up the chain, however
you define that, or does it, or does

1325
01:13:48,110 --> 01:13:49,575
it go through your normal process?

1326
01:13:49,575 --> 01:13:52,305
I think that's just a simple yes no chart.

1327
01:13:52,305 --> 01:13:54,045
You don't need something complex.

1328
01:13:54,375 --> 01:13:59,235
You don't need, you don't need a 30 page,
you know, drawing of what this defined.

1329
01:13:59,235 --> 01:14:01,095
These are the, these are
the projects that we do.

1330
01:14:01,905 --> 01:14:04,245
This is the clients that
we, that we sell to.

1331
01:14:05,475 --> 01:14:07,695
If it's a, if it's any
of these, it's a yes.

1332
01:14:07,700 --> 01:14:11,175
If it's 10 lawn signs, probably not.

1333
01:14:11,865 --> 01:14:14,835
If it's 10,000 lawn signs.

1334
01:14:15,465 --> 01:14:15,675
Oh.

1335
01:14:16,304 --> 01:14:19,125
I'll consider it, I'll consider it.

1336
01:14:19,125 --> 01:14:19,214
Sure.

1337
01:14:19,214 --> 01:14:21,735
But if it's, you know, is it a school?

1338
01:14:21,915 --> 01:14:23,565
Is it a, is it for a birthday?

1339
01:14:23,985 --> 01:14:25,485
I'm not interested in birthdays.

1340
01:14:25,964 --> 01:14:28,275
I'm not interested in
baby announcement signs.

1341
01:14:28,394 --> 01:14:33,974
I'm interested in signs that I'm going
to make a staple with, and that that

1342
01:14:33,974 --> 01:14:36,525
can honestly be left for interpretation.

1343
01:14:36,945 --> 01:14:42,165
But you do need to then maybe
say, we'll do illuminated signs,

1344
01:14:42,169 --> 01:14:44,775
dimensional signage post in panels.

1345
01:14:44,775 --> 01:14:46,815
You might give, you could
spell it out if you want.

1346
01:14:47,115 --> 01:14:47,445
Yeah.

1347
01:14:47,445 --> 01:14:50,415
But that's that how detailed you wanna be.

1348
01:14:50,419 --> 01:14:50,775
That's up

1349
01:14:50,775 --> 01:14:51,075
to you.

1350
01:14:51,375 --> 01:14:51,764
Yeah.

1351
01:14:51,764 --> 01:14:55,035
And we've got, we've, so we've,
I've put together this client

1352
01:14:55,394 --> 01:14:58,035
classification and sign classification.

1353
01:14:58,035 --> 01:15:02,264
We got examples and, and
defined, you know, for each

1354
01:15:02,269 --> 01:15:04,245
of these types of scenarios.

1355
01:15:04,304 --> 01:15:08,865
Um, we know what we, what the signs
we want to build, that's for sure.

1356
01:15:09,044 --> 01:15:12,735
And so, yeah, it's, it's just,
again, it's in that, um, how do

1357
01:15:12,735 --> 01:15:14,299
we keep the process efficient?

1358
01:15:15,105 --> 01:15:21,375
You can gain some efficiencies here
versus that every gate all the time.

1359
01:15:21,674 --> 01:15:26,535
And I'm like, you know, I, I, and
we run into the suit, we've kind of

1360
01:15:26,594 --> 01:15:31,065
shot ourselves in the foot honestly,
in some ways with how our production

1361
01:15:31,065 --> 01:15:35,174
packets for our projects are thick.

1362
01:15:35,415 --> 01:15:36,165
That's for sure.

1363
01:15:36,195 --> 01:15:37,665
What's in, everything's
broken up, what's in them

1364
01:15:37,665 --> 01:15:38,085
generally?

1365
01:15:38,415 --> 01:15:39,375
Generally, what's in them?

1366
01:15:40,365 --> 01:15:44,445
Yeah, so we've got what we call tasking,
which is the beginning is it's kind of

1367
01:15:44,445 --> 01:15:49,755
the, the, the roadmap in terms of labor
for each, you know, for fab finishing,

1368
01:15:49,759 --> 01:15:52,184
CNC graphics, all that kind of stuff.

1369
01:15:52,184 --> 01:15:57,465
So it's a breakdown of that along with
the materials, um, that the pre-production

1370
01:15:57,469 --> 01:15:59,325
department is defined for the project.

1371
01:15:59,955 --> 01:16:04,755
And then we get into, uh, we have
an overview packet that's just

1372
01:16:05,144 --> 01:16:08,985
the pretty picture that the client
signed off on survey information,

1373
01:16:09,644 --> 01:16:13,785
any sublet parts, components that
are being ordered for the project.

1374
01:16:14,430 --> 01:16:18,780
And then part of the production
packet, um, gets more granular.

1375
01:16:18,780 --> 01:16:24,060
Obviously your fab fab details,
um, you know, more granular on

1376
01:16:24,060 --> 01:16:25,950
the graphics side of things.

1377
01:16:25,950 --> 01:16:26,670
Is it vinyl?

1378
01:16:26,670 --> 01:16:27,750
Is it hand Leonard?

1379
01:16:27,750 --> 01:16:28,950
Is it a digital print?

1380
01:16:29,010 --> 01:16:29,400
Layered?

1381
01:16:29,405 --> 01:16:29,970
Vinyl.

1382
01:16:30,295 --> 01:16:33,450
Um, and then the paint paint sheet.

1383
01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:39,000
Each component, what, you know,
what Pantone, what maths paint code.

1384
01:16:39,270 --> 01:16:43,140
Then we have all the actual paint
formulas that get displayed in there.

1385
01:16:43,890 --> 01:16:45,240
Assembly and electrical.

1386
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:50,220
So, you know, what's the neon layout,
what's the LED layout, how many

1387
01:16:50,220 --> 01:16:54,420
transformers, where the service
switches power coming in and out.

1388
01:16:54,900 --> 01:17:00,930
Um, and then the install instructions
page, which is, we try to keep that

1389
01:17:01,500 --> 01:17:05,880
specific to what does the install crew
need, what information on those pages.

1390
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:10,860
And so that's all fine and dandy,
but I used to build signs off of

1391
01:17:10,860 --> 01:17:12,240
what the client signed off on.

1392
01:17:12,845 --> 01:17:17,250
And, and that's not scalable obviously,
but how do we find that balance?

1393
01:17:17,250 --> 01:17:20,850
Because there's some creativity
that that can happen in that, right?

1394
01:17:20,855 --> 01:17:26,310
Here's what in the end, here's
your, your, um, dimensions, here's

1395
01:17:26,315 --> 01:17:29,250
the colors, here's the side view,
here's side A, here's side B.

1396
01:17:29,910 --> 01:17:31,800
Um, you need critical
information in there.

1397
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:33,990
Like, is there existing steel pipe?

1398
01:17:34,050 --> 01:17:36,420
Where is that location
existing electrical.

1399
01:17:37,050 --> 01:17:40,620
But beyond that, and then within
the constraints of this budget

1400
01:17:41,100 --> 01:17:45,420
and this list of materials that we
have in inventory, do your thing.

1401
01:17:45,690 --> 01:17:50,880
You know, because that's, I think
where we let the individual one have

1402
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:52,680
a little more creativity in their day.

1403
01:17:53,190 --> 01:17:57,180
Um, but two, I think gives them a
better understanding of the project

1404
01:17:57,810 --> 01:18:01,680
or the product as a whole versus
being almost like part builders.

1405
01:18:01,740 --> 01:18:06,810
It's like build part A, build part B,
put part A and part B together, you know?

1406
01:18:07,665 --> 01:18:12,555
So sometimes then it's like, if not all
of every single piece of information

1407
01:18:12,555 --> 01:18:14,325
is not there, it's like, what do we do?

1408
01:18:14,805 --> 01:18:18,315
So, you know, finding some
of the balance in that too.

1409
01:18:18,585 --> 01:18:21,975
You know, I, I think is something
that we're interested in.

1410
01:18:21,975 --> 01:18:28,185
I I, you know, we're a manufacturer
on paper and we, technically, I

1411
01:18:28,185 --> 01:18:29,655
would meet all definitions of it.

1412
01:18:30,015 --> 01:18:33,825
We're actually a registered manufacturer
in Wisconsin, but we're also

1413
01:18:33,825 --> 01:18:36,585
craftspeople, you know, in, in the end.

1414
01:18:36,585 --> 01:18:41,835
And I don't wanna lose that
aspect of, of what we do.

1415
01:18:42,855 --> 01:18:49,845
And how do you not lose that aspect of,
of that, of the culture you want, but,

1416
01:18:49,935 --> 01:18:56,700
you know, looking at your TPS reports
and your, you know, all your, that,

1417
01:18:57,435 --> 01:19:00,015
um, where's the balance in all that?

1418
01:19:00,020 --> 01:19:01,275
And can it be.

1419
01:19:01,335 --> 01:19:03,615
You know, can you have
your cake and eat it too?

1420
01:19:03,615 --> 01:19:06,825
And I think that's what we're, we're
trying to find out as a company is

1421
01:19:06,825 --> 01:19:09,705
can we have that, that atmosphere?

1422
01:19:09,735 --> 01:19:14,865
Can we have that, you know, motivation
to build the product that we wanna

1423
01:19:14,865 --> 01:19:19,635
build and also, you know, have the
numbers that we're looking to have.

1424
01:19:19,815 --> 01:19:25,305
Um, so that's, and I think, but there's
also an art to, to that business side.

1425
01:19:25,485 --> 01:19:30,495
And that's certainly something that
I've been more motivated to learn and,

1426
01:19:30,585 --> 01:19:36,165
and understanding and seeing, getting,
um, fulfillment out of like, you know,

1427
01:19:36,255 --> 01:19:40,665
there are days when everything is,
it's like, holy shit, this really, this

1428
01:19:40,665 --> 01:19:45,135
really works, you know, the machine.

1429
01:19:45,915 --> 01:19:49,305
Um, and you see everybody's happy and
their smiles on everybody's faces.

1430
01:19:49,889 --> 01:19:55,320
And so it's, it's there, but how do
you keep that art craft, you know,

1431
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:57,090
and that business in the bottom line?

1432
01:19:57,210 --> 01:20:01,380
How do we keep those things, um,
together working in alignment?

1433
01:20:01,650 --> 01:20:04,410
I think that's, that's just
where we're at in this current

1434
01:20:04,500 --> 01:20:05,160
juncture.

1435
01:20:05,639 --> 01:20:08,490
I don't think there's like a,
there's not an easy answer for that.

1436
01:20:08,490 --> 01:20:08,700
Right?

1437
01:20:08,700 --> 01:20:12,780
I, I think it's something that,
that every shop struggles with at

1438
01:20:12,780 --> 01:20:15,360
some point of like, where, where's
the balance between the two?

1439
01:20:15,509 --> 01:20:15,840
Right?

1440
01:20:16,469 --> 01:20:20,040
Uh, like listening to you talk about it
and, and like hearing Peter's answer,

1441
01:20:20,045 --> 01:20:26,580
like, to me it sounds, uh, a lot of
like, you know, I, I'll give you like

1442
01:20:26,580 --> 01:20:28,019
a totally different analogy, right?

1443
01:20:28,290 --> 01:20:33,870
Um, if you are, like, think of all the,
the trucks that you lettered, right?

1444
01:20:34,469 --> 01:20:36,450
You, you had some constraints around that.

1445
01:20:36,509 --> 01:20:36,660
Sure.

1446
01:20:36,660 --> 01:20:38,730
Of like, Hey, it's a truck.

1447
01:20:38,735 --> 01:20:40,740
We, we gotta put something on the truck.

1448
01:20:40,830 --> 01:20:42,000
It has to look nice.

1449
01:20:42,330 --> 01:20:47,190
We're limited and what we can do, uh,
you know, and, and those constraints.

1450
01:20:47,910 --> 01:20:51,990
Like really get the, the creativity
flowing as well of like, yo,

1451
01:20:52,230 --> 01:20:53,460
here's the medium mm-Hmm.

1452
01:20:53,700 --> 01:20:58,349
Like, how can we embrace that and,
and kind of still be able to deliver

1453
01:20:58,349 --> 01:21:02,759
the type of work and like the feeling
that we, we want to get out of it.

1454
01:21:02,775 --> 01:21:03,065
Yeah.

1455
01:21:03,330 --> 01:21:03,509
Right.

1456
01:21:03,509 --> 01:21:09,780
So you can apply that same kind
of constraint to a process or the

1457
01:21:09,780 --> 01:21:14,790
business side of it or, or whatever
it is, so that like, hey, here, here's

1458
01:21:14,794 --> 01:21:16,500
the things that are non-negotiable.

1459
01:21:16,504 --> 01:21:18,750
If, if we take like the
production side of it, right?

1460
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:24,269
These things are non-negotiable,
have to be done inside production.

1461
01:21:24,719 --> 01:21:26,519
Um, and then it's just
communication, right?

1462
01:21:26,519 --> 01:21:32,969
If, if you're fabricating the sun and
something, you know, you've got a better

1463
01:21:32,969 --> 01:21:36,540
way to, to do the interior struts or
something than what we've got specked.

1464
01:21:36,544 --> 01:21:36,714
Mm-Hmm.

1465
01:21:37,254 --> 01:21:41,639
And like, you, you've got a
better idea as long as it fits

1466
01:21:41,669 --> 01:21:42,990
within those constraints like.

1467
01:21:43,065 --> 01:21:43,934
Good thing.

1468
01:21:43,934 --> 01:21:44,355
Go for it.

1469
01:21:44,360 --> 01:21:44,599
Yeah.

1470
01:21:44,865 --> 01:21:47,535
Or, or if you take on the
intake side of it, right.

1471
01:21:47,535 --> 01:21:53,535
If, if it's gonna cost us, let's say
there's an issue with the sign, right?

1472
01:21:54,014 --> 01:21:57,195
Uh, and, and like Peter mentioned,
like having it not go through the full

1473
01:21:57,195 --> 01:22:01,844
process, but part of the process is
identifying where it, where it should go.

1474
01:22:01,875 --> 01:22:05,985
Like what's the severity of this or,
you know, I, I've even talked to,

1475
01:22:06,044 --> 01:22:09,165
to folks that are like, Hey, if it's
gonna cost us less than 50 bucks to

1476
01:22:09,169 --> 01:22:12,495
fix this, or a hundred bucks to fix
this for an existing client, sure.

1477
01:22:13,184 --> 01:22:16,485
Like, just send, send it to,
you've got full authority.

1478
01:22:16,485 --> 01:22:19,815
Do what you need to do to handle it or
get it to the person who can handle it.

1479
01:22:19,820 --> 01:22:19,879
Right.

1480
01:22:20,384 --> 01:22:21,105
Um, and get it done.

1481
01:22:21,644 --> 01:22:22,035
Yeah.

1482
01:22:22,035 --> 01:22:24,495
You know, so you just kinda
have to build some of those

1483
01:22:24,495 --> 01:22:25,844
constraints into the process.

1484
01:22:26,110 --> 01:22:26,400
Yeah.

1485
01:22:26,894 --> 01:22:30,615
Will that answer the, the,
the full thing about balance?

1486
01:22:31,065 --> 01:22:35,144
You know, probably not, but will it get
you a little further than where you're at

1487
01:22:35,144 --> 01:22:35,384
now?

1488
01:22:35,384 --> 01:22:35,565
Maybe?

1489
01:22:35,565 --> 01:22:35,655
Yeah.

1490
01:22:35,985 --> 01:22:40,754
I think that that's what we're looking
for is, is like I said, just in a.

1491
01:22:41,655 --> 01:22:48,015
Wrap it all up in a nutshell, we have
really have some great process and

1492
01:22:48,015 --> 01:22:52,755
procedure in place that does set us
up for success and, and what it's

1493
01:22:52,785 --> 01:22:54,945
completely adhered to from front to back.

1494
01:22:55,515 --> 01:23:01,035
For the most part, things work great
and, you know, but how do we have a

1495
01:23:01,035 --> 01:23:05,055
little more fun and, and loosen up a
little bit, you know, and, and retain

1496
01:23:05,085 --> 01:23:10,005
that clarity of, of information that
is so necessary when you're building

1497
01:23:10,785 --> 01:23:15,825
custom things from raw materials from
scratch, you know, in the telephone game.

1498
01:23:15,830 --> 01:23:16,545
That can happen.

1499
01:23:17,115 --> 01:23:20,535
But yeah, that's also, there's, you know,
there, there's an aspect of fun that

1500
01:23:20,535 --> 01:23:25,725
we've had just even, you know, coming
up with the things that normally you

1501
01:23:25,730 --> 01:23:29,865
would look at as boring and corporate,
which is process and procedure, you know?

1502
01:23:29,865 --> 01:23:33,315
So there has been a, a, a great amount of.

1503
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:37,620
Fulfill that joy that's come from that,
especially when you see it working.

1504
01:23:37,679 --> 01:23:39,750
'cause it doesn't always
happen right away.

1505
01:23:40,019 --> 01:23:44,190
It's gonna take a while,
see the fruit of that labor.

1506
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:45,450
But yeah,

1507
01:23:45,540 --> 01:23:46,410
that's, uh,

1508
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:47,849
that's where we're at.

1509
01:23:47,849 --> 01:23:51,090
I think we're, we're in
a really good position.

1510
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:56,370
Um, you know, if we approach it from a, a,
we're a startup again, you know, and we're

1511
01:23:56,370 --> 01:24:01,920
only two, three years into it, you know,
this whole team, especially being kind of

1512
01:24:02,009 --> 01:24:07,200
built, bootstrapped together, everybody's
really hitting their stride and, and

1513
01:24:07,200 --> 01:24:12,120
it's exciting to see and especially
considering the type of work that we're so

1514
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:13,650
fortunate to get to work on it, you know?

1515
01:24:14,370 --> 01:24:14,820
So.

1516
01:24:15,389 --> 01:24:15,719
Yeah.

1517
01:24:15,825 --> 01:24:19,290
I mean, you guys are an amazing spot, man,
and I love that you're pro approaching

1518
01:24:19,295 --> 01:24:22,830
it as like, Hey, we're treating this as
a startup, maybe in the editing piece.

1519
01:24:22,860 --> 01:24:26,610
Like, we have somebody, like our
editor put the, uh, what was the,

1520
01:24:26,615 --> 01:24:28,710
the shop stages model, right?

1521
01:24:28,799 --> 01:24:31,170
Like I, about a year ago or so, damn.

1522
01:24:31,170 --> 01:24:33,030
Like we put together this model of like.

1523
01:24:33,300 --> 01:24:37,740
You're starting out, you're, you're
systemizing, you know, like at the

1524
01:24:37,740 --> 01:24:39,269
end of it is like the ideal shock.

1525
01:24:39,269 --> 01:24:39,330
Yeah.

1526
01:24:39,330 --> 01:24:42,300
Like that, that's, that's
different for everybody, right?

1527
01:24:42,300 --> 01:24:45,480
Based on your own, like,
here's how we want to operate.

1528
01:24:45,929 --> 01:24:51,090
But like, the theory is, as you grow, you
know, you may be in the middle stage of

1529
01:24:51,090 --> 01:24:52,710
like, Hey, we've got our processes down.

1530
01:24:53,130 --> 01:24:57,330
You suddenly, you add four people to
the business and a hundred thou, or,

1531
01:24:57,330 --> 01:25:03,090
you know, $500,000 in sales, you get
bounced back to like this, this growth

1532
01:25:03,094 --> 01:25:07,559
stage of like, Hey, we've got shit to
figure out again, because, 'cause now,

1533
01:25:07,620 --> 01:25:12,000
hey, like what worked well at five people
does not work well at 10 or 28 people.

1534
01:25:12,030 --> 01:25:12,360
Yeah.

1535
01:25:13,019 --> 01:25:15,630
So I, I love that you guys
are approaching it from that.

1536
01:25:15,990 --> 01:25:16,710
Aspect.

1537
01:25:16,740 --> 01:25:17,040
Yeah.

1538
01:25:17,070 --> 01:25:17,795
Do what we can.

1539
01:25:17,815 --> 01:25:21,600
Um, if this has been a great conversation,
I, I, I would love to do this all day.

1540
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:24,450
Uh, I've got the kids at home
and my wife will probably beat

1541
01:25:24,450 --> 01:25:26,880
me if I carry on too much longer.

1542
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:31,890
But, but if we, uh, transition to
like the future, uh, you know, you've

1543
01:25:31,890 --> 01:25:36,330
talked about traction, but, uh, beyond
that, like, you know, the, the things

1544
01:25:36,330 --> 01:25:39,720
that you've already discussed, like
what's the, the future for you guys?

1545
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:41,460
What's the future for you and your wife?

1546
01:25:41,490 --> 01:25:42,000
You know, personally?

1547
01:25:42,030 --> 01:25:42,090
Yeah.

1548
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:43,315
I, what does that look like?

1549
01:25:43,515 --> 01:25:47,790
I think, uh, in terms of the company
is really continuing to effort

1550
01:25:47,790 --> 01:25:52,440
towards working on the types of
projects that we wanna work on, that

1551
01:25:53,190 --> 01:25:54,750
that's the most important thing.

1552
01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:58,170
Well, and, and on top of,
just, like I said, let's, let's

1553
01:25:58,170 --> 01:25:59,430
have fun while we're doing it.

1554
01:26:00,150 --> 01:26:07,350
And I, I do have a goal of 50%, so
43 now, um, 50% of my time involved

1555
01:26:07,620 --> 01:26:12,240
in Sign Art Studio by the time I,
I'm 50, so that's a goal I have.

1556
01:26:12,870 --> 01:26:18,570
Now what is 50% of my time may
not be 50% of other people's time.

1557
01:26:18,630 --> 01:26:21,299
You know how it goes if you're,
you know, you're a business owner.

1558
01:26:21,990 --> 01:26:26,759
Um, but I'd like to see myself in
that 20 to 30 hours a week input

1559
01:26:26,759 --> 01:26:28,259
by the time I'm 50 years old.

1560
01:26:28,259 --> 01:26:34,620
And what that means is, um, you know,
making sure that, um, the structure's

1561
01:26:34,625 --> 01:26:38,820
in place, uh, for that to happen and
that there's alignment across the board.

1562
01:26:39,330 --> 01:26:42,660
So, like I said, we're, we're
still clarifying what, you know,

1563
01:26:42,780 --> 01:26:47,160
our five, well, three and five and
10 year goals are as a company.

1564
01:26:47,165 --> 01:26:53,549
But, um, it is certainly not growth
for growth's sake in terms of revenue.

1565
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:58,230
Um, again, I think it's a, a poor
focus on working with the, the

1566
01:26:58,230 --> 01:27:02,070
clients we wanna work with and the
type of projects we wanna work with.

1567
01:27:02,820 --> 01:27:07,980
I think it is, you know, so much
effort or, or the customer's always.

1568
01:27:07,980 --> 01:27:08,820
Right, right.

1569
01:27:08,910 --> 01:27:10,920
Uh, or people talk about.

1570
01:27:11,805 --> 01:27:14,805
The effect of a bad employee
can have on a company.

1571
01:27:15,315 --> 01:27:18,345
There's very little talk, it
seems like, about the effect of,

1572
01:27:18,465 --> 01:27:20,805
of a crappy client on a company.

1573
01:27:21,285 --> 01:27:27,915
And so I think really making sure
that, that, uh, we've been a part

1574
01:27:27,915 --> 01:27:30,225
of it and it is, it, it runs deep.

1575
01:27:30,225 --> 01:27:30,975
It really does.

1576
01:27:30,975 --> 01:27:34,485
So find, 'cause when you find a
client that you're aligned with,

1577
01:27:34,845 --> 01:27:38,625
man, it is just such a different
world how these projects go.

1578
01:27:38,835 --> 01:27:43,635
So I think it's a, it's again, more,
um, continuing to work with the, the

1579
01:27:43,635 --> 01:27:47,595
clients that we're aligned with, um,
and trying to find more that we're

1580
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:52,305
aligned with and, uh, doing the type of
projects that, that we're aligned with

1581
01:27:52,305 --> 01:27:56,205
and not taking the, the work that we're
not, you know, those are the things

1582
01:27:56,210 --> 01:27:57,195
that I am clear on.

1583
01:27:57,310 --> 01:27:57,600
Yeah.

1584
01:27:58,185 --> 01:27:58,365
Yeah.

1585
01:27:58,370 --> 01:27:59,295
Lemme stop you there.

1586
01:27:59,295 --> 01:28:03,195
I, Ellie, I, you know, we always
ask for other advice, but hey,

1587
01:28:03,195 --> 01:28:04,575
this is very pertinent, like.

1588
01:28:05,894 --> 01:28:09,195
You've got a platform here, and
obviously like, I wanna talk about

1589
01:28:09,195 --> 01:28:10,455
your own podcast in just a moment.

1590
01:28:10,455 --> 01:28:15,885
But, um, for the shop owners out there,
like what advice would you give them on

1591
01:28:16,485 --> 01:28:19,455
working with the right type of clients
or finding the right type of clients?

1592
01:28:19,455 --> 01:28:25,190
Because, you know, it seems like you
guys really hit your stride with the,

1593
01:28:25,275 --> 01:28:29,235
the type of work and, and, and granted
it is not been easy to get here.

1594
01:28:29,835 --> 01:28:29,894
Yeah.

1595
01:28:30,375 --> 01:28:37,095
I I don't want to like, do like the DIY
like, hey, here's Dan's business and 30

1596
01:28:37,099 --> 01:28:39,165
minutes later, oh, it's freaking amazing.

1597
01:28:39,170 --> 01:28:39,376
Right, right.

1598
01:28:39,705 --> 01:28:43,605
But like, what, what advice would you, I
feel like that's something that everybody

1599
01:28:43,605 --> 01:28:47,684
struggles with of like, Hey, this is the
type of work that we wanna do, right?

1600
01:28:48,075 --> 01:28:49,875
This is the work that
we're currently doing.

1601
01:28:49,875 --> 01:28:49,876
Mm-Hmm.

1602
01:28:50,355 --> 01:28:51,945
These are the type of
clients we wanna work with.

1603
01:28:51,950 --> 01:28:53,474
These are the clients that
we currently work with.

1604
01:28:53,474 --> 01:28:53,535
Yeah.

1605
01:28:54,075 --> 01:28:57,915
Like, is there any like nuggets or,
or like wisdom you could share with

1606
01:28:58,125 --> 01:29:02,235
the, the shop owners out there of
like, how you got from point A to

1607
01:29:02,235 --> 01:29:04,184
point B or, or, you know, what that.

1608
01:29:04,680 --> 01:29:07,050
Yeah, like anything you
can expect out of that?

1609
01:29:07,050 --> 01:29:07,770
I, I, well,

1610
01:29:07,770 --> 01:29:12,630
one, we're, we're not, uh, we're,
we're not where we want to be yet.

1611
01:29:12,690 --> 01:29:17,370
And so I think obviously if you'd ask
any shop owner out there, no matter

1612
01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:21,060
what the business is, obviously they're
gonna want to do the type of work they

1613
01:29:21,065 --> 01:29:23,550
want to do and work with great clients.

1614
01:29:23,610 --> 01:29:27,180
I, I don't think, we're not, we
obviously didn't discover that.

1615
01:29:27,210 --> 01:29:35,850
Um, but I, for us, where it started,
um, and so we can start to understand it

1616
01:29:35,850 --> 01:29:41,640
better, is, is that we are classifying,
we have a set of standards in place

1617
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:45,750
for, you know, what is an a plus
client, uh, what's an, a client,

1618
01:29:45,750 --> 01:29:47,400
what's a B client, what's a C client?

1619
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:51,420
We've done the same with the type
of projects they are as well.

1620
01:29:51,990 --> 01:29:54,030
And I think that has has started.

1621
01:29:54,035 --> 01:29:58,200
And then we also have a couple
other layers in terms of, uh.

1622
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:03,420
Project complexity as well, um,
which we rate one through three.

1623
01:30:03,780 --> 01:30:08,550
Our account executives are in charge
of classifying these projects after,

1624
01:30:09,030 --> 01:30:14,910
you know, um, so my wife does the
qualifications of, of any new inquiry.

1625
01:30:14,910 --> 01:30:17,610
If it's, if it's a, a
new, potential new client.

1626
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:22,950
So once they're qualified and, and
they move on to an account executive,

1627
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:27,090
the account executive meets with
them and then, you know, follows

1628
01:30:27,090 --> 01:30:30,450
the guidelines we have in place and
classifies the client the project.

1629
01:30:30,540 --> 01:30:35,580
So I think that's one thing that's
been helpful, um, now for us to

1630
01:30:35,580 --> 01:30:41,040
really, we've just started doing
that about a year ago, so we still

1631
01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:45,480
now are learning and understanding
and collecting the data on that.

1632
01:30:45,990 --> 01:30:46,740
But that's one thing.

1633
01:30:46,740 --> 01:30:49,950
I think the only thing for us so
far that we could, that we put

1634
01:30:49,950 --> 01:30:53,700
into place, it's a tangible process
around starting to understand that.

1635
01:30:54,840 --> 01:31:01,380
Um, but historically it's the, you know,
if we didn't want to move it through our

1636
01:31:01,380 --> 01:31:05,700
shop for wholesaler, you know, that's one
easy way, you know, in terms of working

1637
01:31:05,804 --> 01:31:07,950
out projects that you wanna work on.

1638
01:31:08,670 --> 01:31:12,210
Now, the client side, that is so
much easier said than done because

1639
01:31:12,215 --> 01:31:15,719
at the end of the day, uh, we
need to put food on the table.

1640
01:31:16,139 --> 01:31:17,910
And so you can say, I only wanna work.

1641
01:31:18,630 --> 01:31:18,870
Yeah.

1642
01:31:18,960 --> 01:31:20,639
You still gotta put numbers on the board.

1643
01:31:20,639 --> 01:31:20,969
Yeah.

1644
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:21,780
Um, so

1645
01:31:21,780 --> 01:31:23,429
that the, that one's more challenging.

1646
01:31:23,429 --> 01:31:28,290
But I think we have certainly
gotten better at turning projects

1647
01:31:28,290 --> 01:31:30,240
away just in the last couple years.

1648
01:31:30,599 --> 01:31:34,200
And the unfortunate thing is sometimes
you don't know what that client's gonna be

1649
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,389
like until it's, you know, you're in deep.

1650
01:31:36,389 --> 01:31:39,780
And so you know that, that,
that part's a learning process.

1651
01:31:39,780 --> 01:31:45,300
But I just, the experience of
working with a customer that you're

1652
01:31:45,300 --> 01:31:50,370
aligned with versus one that you're
not is such a different experience.

1653
01:31:50,370 --> 01:31:52,019
It's collaborative, it's.

1654
01:31:52,710 --> 01:31:55,184
You know, they're so much more engaged.

1655
01:31:55,184 --> 01:31:59,264
They, you know, they like
nice things like we do.

1656
01:31:59,474 --> 01:32:04,125
Um, you know, so there's, that's
such a different experience.

1657
01:32:04,514 --> 01:32:09,615
You know, what is on like the a plus
list, like, like for the criteria,

1658
01:32:09,615 --> 01:32:13,005
so you got like the specific, like,
Hey, here's our a plus client.

1659
01:32:13,035 --> 01:32:16,934
Like, what are the things because hey,
like I have this conversation with, with

1660
01:32:16,934 --> 01:32:21,135
new side shop owners all the time of
like, Hey, who are your top five clients?

1661
01:32:21,135 --> 01:32:23,925
And they're like, who, who do
we do the most in sales with?

1662
01:32:23,930 --> 01:32:24,915
I'm like, no, no, no, no.

1663
01:32:25,365 --> 01:32:28,335
Like, not, not who gives you
the most money right now?

1664
01:32:28,340 --> 01:32:30,555
Like, who are the, who
are your best clients?

1665
01:32:30,555 --> 01:32:32,595
Like, who you, it, it's a massive, right?

1666
01:32:32,655 --> 01:32:32,865
Yeah.

1667
01:32:32,865 --> 01:32:37,934
So our A plus clients one, are they,
they were histor, they were an a.

1668
01:32:40,575 --> 01:32:43,905
If we get a new inquiry, we do
a reach out, we're doing some

1669
01:32:43,905 --> 01:32:46,665
hunting on, on an A client.

1670
01:32:46,725 --> 01:32:51,525
They're not, they're not a customer
yet, but from what we can tell,

1671
01:32:51,530 --> 01:32:54,525
by looking at like what are their,
you know, if it's a developer, what

1672
01:32:54,530 --> 01:32:56,025
are their developments look like?

1673
01:32:56,505 --> 01:32:59,565
What kind of architecture or,
you know, what's their vibe?

1674
01:33:00,195 --> 01:33:02,325
Um, we'll do a little homework on that.

1675
01:33:02,325 --> 01:33:08,775
So that would be an, a customer, a
plus customer is that repeat customer.

1676
01:33:09,135 --> 01:33:10,845
There's a level of trust.

1677
01:33:11,025 --> 01:33:13,935
Um, they seek a long term partnership.

1678
01:33:13,935 --> 01:33:16,515
They're very partnership oriented, right?

1679
01:33:16,875 --> 01:33:19,485
Because that's important, you
know, we're human beings, like

1680
01:33:19,575 --> 01:33:21,075
shit happens from time to time.

1681
01:33:21,675 --> 01:33:25,185
And does that type of
client understand that?

1682
01:33:25,185 --> 01:33:28,330
And you understand that of
them and so it becomes more of

1683
01:33:28,370 --> 01:33:29,985
a, of an actual partnership.

1684
01:33:30,765 --> 01:33:35,535
Do they have the same taste
in the product as we do?

1685
01:33:36,030 --> 01:33:38,760
Quite frankly, do they,
do they take our advice?

1686
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:42,150
We're not doing it for, for any
other reason than have their

1687
01:33:42,150 --> 01:33:43,740
best interest in mind, right?

1688
01:33:43,740 --> 01:33:49,920
So when we wanna bring our professional
thoughts to the table, um, are they

1689
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:55,320
receptive to it or is it just like, Nope,
you know, this is what we need to do.

1690
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:58,080
No, you guys are gonna do
what we want you to do.

1691
01:33:58,080 --> 01:33:58,200
Yep.

1692
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:00,360
Just, just make it from do

1693
01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:01,590
they pay their bills on time?

1694
01:34:01,590 --> 01:34:04,200
That's another one that
is part of that equation.

1695
01:34:05,815 --> 01:34:08,010
Uh, are they good communicators?

1696
01:34:08,070 --> 01:34:10,800
'cause it's fine if they
like, like nice things.

1697
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:12,990
If you have the same taste,
if all these other things.

1698
01:34:12,990 --> 01:34:16,710
But if you're trying to get that
vector logo from 'em for two weeks and

1699
01:34:16,710 --> 01:34:21,270
that's holding up the project, then
that can be a potential problem, you

1700
01:34:21,275 --> 01:34:23,100
know, for a long term partnership.

1701
01:34:23,835 --> 01:34:28,125
So those are the key ones, at least in
our a and a plus clients, you know, as

1702
01:34:28,125 --> 01:34:32,445
you, as you go down and rate, obviously
you guys can put two and two together

1703
01:34:32,445 --> 01:34:38,055
where, um, you know, that, that, so yeah.

1704
01:34:39,315 --> 01:34:43,335
No, that's helpful to go into, uh,
tell, tell us about your podcast, man.

1705
01:34:43,390 --> 01:34:47,085
Uh, because I, you know, I, I, I knew
you were already a pro at this and a,

1706
01:34:47,085 --> 01:34:51,345
like, I really slacked on the notes
and, and just all the other like

1707
01:34:51,345 --> 01:34:52,935
process that we have in place for our

1708
01:34:52,935 --> 01:34:53,595
podcasts.

1709
01:34:54,090 --> 01:34:55,290
I person am not a pro.

1710
01:34:55,610 --> 01:34:58,605
I have two podcasts
episodes under my belt.

1711
01:34:58,695 --> 01:35:02,565
Uh, maybe pro from the standpoint of
I listen to podcasts all the time.

1712
01:35:03,015 --> 01:35:06,705
Um, but no, I, we've been
talking about it for.

1713
01:35:07,559 --> 01:35:08,880
A very long time.

1714
01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:13,590
And, and it was started, we're
gonna start it before Covid.

1715
01:35:13,740 --> 01:35:18,420
And in fact, my first guess was
gonna be the, I forget what his title

1716
01:35:18,420 --> 01:35:23,070
was then, but I think director of
Building Inspection in Madison to talk

1717
01:35:23,070 --> 01:35:28,920
about the sign code and why it's so
restrictive and you know, all that stuff.

1718
01:35:28,920 --> 01:35:33,960
But anyway, then Covid happened and
that got put on the back burner.

1719
01:35:34,080 --> 01:35:40,200
Uh, but then we had a, a project for
a local broadcast company, so radio,

1720
01:35:40,230 --> 01:35:42,570
uh, podcast and that sort of thing.

1721
01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:49,980
Um, and they proposed doing a trade and
one of 'em was one of, one of what they

1722
01:35:49,980 --> 01:35:54,900
were proposing is, um, that we'd do six
to seven podcasts out of their studio.

1723
01:35:56,040 --> 01:36:00,240
And my wife was kind of shepherding this,
this project, and so she brought it.

1724
01:36:00,764 --> 01:36:03,375
Brought it to my attention, and
I was like, all right, well,

1725
01:36:03,434 --> 01:36:06,885
yeah, let's do it because I,
maybe it's the kick in the butt.

1726
01:36:06,885 --> 01:36:09,615
I need to get this, you
know, podcast off the ground.

1727
01:36:09,915 --> 01:36:12,764
Um, and so we met with them and
they're like, well, maybe you can

1728
01:36:12,764 --> 01:36:17,474
talk about the process of a sign sale
or, you know, interview this or that.

1729
01:36:17,925 --> 01:36:22,155
All this felt forced, and I'm not
good in those scenarios at all.

1730
01:36:22,635 --> 01:36:25,425
Like, I don't do like networking
events real well because I don't,

1731
01:36:25,785 --> 01:36:30,644
I'm not, I'm very extroverted
with my people, my circle.

1732
01:36:30,644 --> 01:36:34,815
But outside of that, I'm like, eh,
I can't fake water cooler talk.

1733
01:36:35,415 --> 01:36:38,745
And so, honestly, I, I didn't know
what we were gonna, I didn't know.

1734
01:36:38,745 --> 01:36:40,845
I didn't know what, I'm like, all
right, well we signed up for this.

1735
01:36:40,845 --> 01:36:42,165
Well, what, what's it gonna be?

1736
01:36:42,405 --> 01:36:47,775
And yeah, I, and then it came to
me, well, why don't I start with

1737
01:36:47,775 --> 01:36:52,905
interviewing, um, letterheads, so like
sign painters that I, that I know,

1738
01:36:52,910 --> 01:36:57,045
and I thought if I did, if I can get
on a rhythm of one a month, I've got.

1739
01:36:57,795 --> 01:37:00,405
A couple years worth of
podcasts that I could do.

1740
01:37:00,705 --> 01:37:03,135
I don't need a real heavy outline.

1741
01:37:03,135 --> 01:37:04,575
There's no script that's needed.

1742
01:37:04,575 --> 01:37:06,285
It's just talk and shop.

1743
01:37:07,065 --> 01:37:10,635
And so it's not for, it's like
you guys, it, it, it's not.

1744
01:37:10,665 --> 01:37:10,845
Yeah.

1745
01:37:10,845 --> 01:37:13,965
There's obviously, you, you guys
probably do have some of this that

1746
01:37:13,965 --> 01:37:18,555
turns, you know, into revenue out
maybe, possibly in some way or another.

1747
01:37:18,555 --> 01:37:23,385
But I'm not speaking to
the customer, so to speak.

1748
01:37:23,385 --> 01:37:28,995
You know, I'm speaking to our industry
and if in some way if it gains

1749
01:37:28,995 --> 01:37:32,835
some level of traction, it has some
exposure and it shines a light on

1750
01:37:33,345 --> 01:37:38,715
the traditional aspects of, of this
trade that we're in, then it's a win.

1751
01:37:38,715 --> 01:37:42,495
So really that's the ultimate
goal is I think all the, you know,

1752
01:37:42,735 --> 01:37:47,115
individuals and, and mentors and
peers I've met over the years who

1753
01:37:47,115 --> 01:37:50,235
have taught me, you know what I know.

1754
01:37:50,445 --> 01:37:54,585
Um, it was a, it's in some way
to honor them and, and give.

1755
01:37:56,655 --> 01:37:59,355
So that's, that's kind
of where it'll start.

1756
01:37:59,535 --> 01:38:01,035
I'm sure it'll evolve.

1757
01:38:01,184 --> 01:38:07,095
You know, like my best friend Tom Zucker
Neon Lab, he does, he does all our neon.

1758
01:38:07,095 --> 01:38:09,885
So we'll have him on for episode.

1759
01:38:10,125 --> 01:38:13,425
But yeah, just it, some of the
more traditional areas is where

1760
01:38:13,430 --> 01:38:17,445
it's focused now, and then I'm
sure it'll expand beyond that.

1761
01:38:17,505 --> 01:38:23,415
You know, it'd be cool to get, like,
it'd be cool to like interview the

1762
01:38:23,415 --> 01:38:28,365
owner of Jones Signs, which is a big
monster, you know, national company.

1763
01:38:28,605 --> 01:38:32,055
Pick their brain a little bit
on, on, you know, how, how they

1764
01:38:32,925 --> 01:38:34,125
built it and that sort of thing.

1765
01:38:34,125 --> 01:38:35,865
But, so yeah, that's where it's at now.

1766
01:38:35,865 --> 01:38:37,995
And then I think bringing some

1767
01:38:38,985 --> 01:38:42,465
where can, where can people
listen to, uh, so everywhere

1768
01:38:42,615 --> 01:38:45,495
it's called Make War with Dan Yoder.

1769
01:38:45,615 --> 01:38:49,275
So anywhere, yeah, podcasts
are listened to Spotify.

1770
01:38:50,265 --> 01:38:50,535
Okay.

1771
01:38:50,805 --> 01:38:51,225
You name it.

1772
01:38:51,644 --> 01:38:51,796
That's all.

1773
01:38:52,715 --> 01:38:54,900
We will make sure we put the
link in the show notes as well.

1774
01:38:54,905 --> 01:38:58,410
Yeah, and then also I, I listened to the
first episode with Mike and I thought

1775
01:38:58,410 --> 01:38:59,040
it was, yeah, that was my boss Mike.

1776
01:38:59,940 --> 01:39:05,790
Uh, I, I love, I I I, I, I love
just having a, like, just a live

1777
01:39:05,790 --> 01:39:10,710
conversation of, of just like two folks
who know the industry really well.

1778
01:39:10,710 --> 01:39:14,250
And that's, to me, that's, that's
the joy of what we do here is just,

1779
01:39:15,060 --> 01:39:19,020
yes, we try to have an outline
and we try to provide value.

1780
01:39:19,110 --> 01:39:22,590
And if you're listening, I hope
this conversation has been valuable.

1781
01:39:22,920 --> 01:39:25,020
If it wasn't, I had fun.

1782
01:39:25,020 --> 01:39:25,830
Pete had fun.

1783
01:39:25,890 --> 01:39:27,210
Hopefully Dan had fun as well.

1784
01:39:27,210 --> 01:39:29,760
But yeah, hopefully
there's some value in it.

1785
01:39:29,760 --> 01:39:34,680
But for me it's, I, I, this part of it is,
like you mentioned, cathartic when you are

1786
01:39:34,685 --> 01:39:38,280
actually building something for me, this
is kind of cathartic as well, where it's

1787
01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:40,920
just like, Hey, you just get to turn off.

1788
01:39:41,429 --> 01:39:44,790
Everything else and, and just,
you know, talk shop with somebody

1789
01:39:44,790 --> 01:39:46,710
who, who knows and just gets it.

1790
01:39:46,980 --> 01:39:47,070
Yep.

1791
01:39:47,580 --> 01:39:48,660
Or a YouTube channel.

1792
01:39:48,665 --> 01:39:50,040
Make signs, not war tv.

1793
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:53,490
We post the podcast there
and it's fun to watch.

1794
01:39:53,490 --> 01:39:56,400
'cause we do try to pull up
examples of the work too.

1795
01:39:56,730 --> 01:39:59,370
Um, which is, which is,
you know, fun to see.

1796
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:00,929
But yeah, that's it.

1797
01:40:00,990 --> 01:40:04,980
Wherever podcast can be listened
to and then our YouTube channel

1798
01:40:04,980 --> 01:40:06,269
made sign's, not more tv,

1799
01:40:06,420 --> 01:40:06,719
so.

1800
01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:07,139
Yeah.

1801
01:40:07,440 --> 01:40:07,830
Right on.

1802
01:40:08,460 --> 01:40:10,200
Uh, Dan, this has been awesome, man.

1803
01:40:10,200 --> 01:40:11,099
I really enjoyed it.

1804
01:40:11,099 --> 01:40:11,370
Absolutely.

1805
01:40:11,639 --> 01:40:13,035
I hope you'll come back on sometimes soon.

1806
01:40:13,035 --> 01:40:15,870
Yeah, man, I'm, I'm in, you know,
that I, I feel like there's,

1807
01:40:15,875 --> 01:40:17,309
there's more conversations to have.

1808
01:40:17,315 --> 01:40:17,400
Yeah,

1809
01:40:17,490 --> 01:40:18,120
for sure.

1810
01:40:18,480 --> 01:40:22,380
Well, I appreciate you guys
having me on, um, and happy

1811
01:40:22,380 --> 01:40:24,570
holidays, uh, to you and yours.

1812
01:40:24,780 --> 01:40:25,049
Yeah.

1813
01:40:25,170 --> 01:40:27,960
Merry Christmas from
my wife and I, I'm not

1814
01:40:27,965 --> 01:40:30,540
sure if you could see me on Yeah,
I, I noticed that, man, I'm like,

1815
01:40:30,545 --> 01:40:33,355
wonder, I'm wondering exactly
what's going on in that households.

1816
01:40:33,355 --> 01:40:34,380
Yeah, she, she got me a.

1817
01:40:35,730 --> 01:40:36,780
Mine's called me four.

1818
01:40:37,380 --> 01:40:40,139
Mine's called me four times in the
last five minutes because we're

1819
01:40:40,139 --> 01:40:41,040
supposed to get down the road.

1820
01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:42,990
Head to Illinois, so, yeah.

1821
01:40:43,769 --> 01:40:44,160
Yep.

1822
01:40:44,700 --> 01:40:44,849
Yeah.

1823
01:40:44,849 --> 01:40:46,530
Call, get after it.

1824
01:40:46,889 --> 01:40:47,370
Stay out.

1825
01:40:47,370 --> 01:40:48,059
The dog house all.

1826
01:40:48,269 --> 01:40:48,510
Yeah.

1827
01:40:48,780 --> 01:40:49,019
Cole.

1828
01:40:50,790 --> 01:40:51,300
We'll see you, Dan.

1829
01:40:52,019 --> 01:40:52,139
All.

1830
01:40:52,349 --> 01:40:54,090
So that's the episode with Dan.

1831
01:40:54,750 --> 01:40:58,290
Pete, stop typing on the keyboard and
give us your rapid fire takeaways.

1832
01:40:58,469 --> 01:40:59,400
Um,

1833
01:40:59,820 --> 01:41:00,300
okay.

1834
01:41:00,599 --> 01:41:08,639
So first and foremost, he's
got a lot of raw talent.

1835
01:41:09,235 --> 01:41:10,530
I, I, I see, hi.

1836
01:41:10,769 --> 01:41:15,120
I, looking at his site and looking
and listening to him here today.

1837
01:41:15,120 --> 01:41:20,429
I think he's, um, for such a, in
such a short period of time, I think

1838
01:41:20,429 --> 01:41:25,980
he's got something here put together
that it, it needs to be recognized,

1839
01:41:25,980 --> 01:41:30,059
it needs to be celebrated, but he
needs to continue to push forward.

1840
01:41:30,059 --> 01:41:33,900
And I think sometimes, and you heard
some of it here today, that you know.

1841
01:41:34,695 --> 01:41:40,275
He has elements of it and he has
pieces of it and pieces of it being

1842
01:41:40,275 --> 01:41:44,804
like a process, but there, it's
not 100% tiled in, but it is okay.

1843
01:41:45,764 --> 01:41:46,424
It is okay.

1844
01:41:46,424 --> 01:41:50,325
You need to continue to dial
that in and yearn to be better.

1845
01:41:50,330 --> 01:41:51,705
Like we, like we discussed.

1846
01:41:51,705 --> 01:41:57,134
And I think he, you know, whether that's
technology, whether that's, uh, cre,

1847
01:41:57,165 --> 01:42:02,235
spending time, creating playbooks,
creating those necessary pieces so that

1848
01:42:02,235 --> 01:42:03,705
things don't fall through the cracks.

1849
01:42:04,365 --> 01:42:09,344
I think a shop that does $5 million a
year, that employees, that many people

1850
01:42:09,344 --> 01:42:13,394
can still have a lot to learn from
and they can still implement a lot

1851
01:42:13,485 --> 01:42:15,615
to make them a $10 million business.

1852
01:42:15,915 --> 01:42:16,755
Um, or

1853
01:42:16,849 --> 01:42:18,554
a, a super profitable business,

1854
01:42:19,485 --> 01:42:20,865
or super profitable business.

1855
01:42:20,865 --> 01:42:24,134
I loved his, I I loved that last thing
that he said, which was, you know,

1856
01:42:24,134 --> 01:42:28,934
goal by, I think he, by the time he's
50 to spend, you know, less time in

1857
01:42:28,934 --> 01:42:31,634
the business and I thought, well.

1858
01:42:31,950 --> 01:42:33,480
That is one hell of a goal.

1859
01:42:33,480 --> 01:42:36,660
I, but my thought was I have absolutely
no idea how you measure that.

1860
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:40,379
Uh, just calculate your time, I guess.

1861
01:42:41,670 --> 01:42:44,219
But to me, I thought that was a
very interesting goal, not one

1862
01:42:44,219 --> 01:42:45,389
that we've heard here before.

1863
01:42:45,839 --> 01:42:48,839
Uh, but also made me think,
you know, like that what does

1864
01:42:48,839 --> 01:42:51,360
value look like to other people?

1865
01:42:51,389 --> 01:42:55,679
It's not just profit, it's not just
quality of sign, it's also their time.

1866
01:42:56,370 --> 01:43:00,929
And I think, uh, Dan is, Dan is
definitely somebody that is valuing

1867
01:43:00,929 --> 01:43:05,820
his time far better than, than
the average sign shop owner does.

1868
01:43:06,360 --> 01:43:06,990
So there you have it.

1869
01:43:06,990 --> 01:43:07,740
That's my takeaway.

1870
01:43:08,099 --> 01:43:08,309
Yeah,

1871
01:43:08,309 --> 01:43:09,000
I love that, man.

1872
01:43:09,089 --> 01:43:13,559
It goes back to that ideal shop
stage model that we sort have like.

1873
01:43:14,910 --> 01:43:19,559
It doesn't always mean that $10
million or a hundred million dollars

1874
01:43:19,589 --> 01:43:21,599
company is the, the goal, right?

1875
01:43:21,599 --> 01:43:26,549
It's like what works well for you
and, you know, if you're a, a small

1876
01:43:26,549 --> 01:43:31,709
three man operation and like your
aspirations are not much bigger than

1877
01:43:31,709 --> 01:43:35,910
that, like you just want to live
a happy lifestyle, be comfortable,

1878
01:43:35,910 --> 01:43:37,769
provide for your family, it's okay.

1879
01:43:37,980 --> 01:43:38,250
Yeah.

1880
01:43:38,849 --> 01:43:40,889
Don't, uh, don't grow for growth's sake.

1881
01:43:40,889 --> 01:43:42,089
I heard Dan say that, right?

1882
01:43:42,599 --> 01:43:47,160
Like, don't target growth just to
put numbers on the board Right.

1883
01:43:47,165 --> 01:43:48,209
And make it mean something.

1884
01:43:48,540 --> 01:43:50,969
So, lots of takeaways for me in this one.

1885
01:43:51,209 --> 01:43:55,589
Um, I, I wish we could have dived
into or dove into the, uh, the

1886
01:43:55,589 --> 01:43:57,959
scheduling tool, but we'll have to
bring him back on for that one man.

1887
01:43:58,589 --> 01:44:00,209
You would, uh, yeah.

1888
01:44:00,209 --> 01:44:00,809
I think I would've

1889
01:44:00,809 --> 01:44:02,309
geeked out a little bit on that.

1890
01:44:02,459 --> 01:44:02,940
Yeah.

1891
01:44:03,254 --> 01:44:04,500
You know, you certainly would've.

1892
01:44:04,950 --> 01:44:08,820
So, Bryant, um, have a
Merry Christmas, my man.

1893
01:44:08,820 --> 01:44:09,929
Thank you again for.

1894
01:44:10,410 --> 01:44:15,960
For, for leading the charge here
on a wonderful year, uh, of guests.

1895
01:44:15,960 --> 01:44:19,980
And we're gonna close out this
year with, with an amazing record

1896
01:44:19,980 --> 01:44:22,469
of, of downloads on our podcast.

1897
01:44:22,469 --> 01:44:25,769
This has been a wonderful year for,
for the Better Sign Shop and, and

1898
01:44:25,769 --> 01:44:31,230
this particular podcast, uh, just
wanted to say thank you and I'll see

1899
01:44:31,230 --> 01:44:32,400
you on the other side of the year.

1900
01:44:32,790 --> 01:44:34,410
Oh, you're gonna make me blush, man.

1901
01:44:34,710 --> 01:44:35,969
No, thank you, dude.

1902
01:44:36,480 --> 01:44:37,769
Uh, thank, thank Mike.

1903
01:44:37,769 --> 01:44:38,790
He couldn't make it today.

1904
01:44:39,269 --> 01:44:43,889
Um, Uhhuh, you know, hey,
like, it is been amazing.

1905
01:44:44,309 --> 01:44:48,030
Like from where we started with
this freaking thing, dude, like,

1906
01:44:48,420 --> 01:44:50,070
uh, hey guys, let's just catch up.

1907
01:44:50,070 --> 01:44:52,320
Like we, we haven't talked
to each other in a while.

1908
01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:57,150
Let's just catch up and talk shop to,
to now where we get to interview guests

1909
01:44:57,150 --> 01:45:03,509
like Dan and other industry legends
like Dan Antonelli and Dan Soki.

1910
01:45:03,509 --> 01:45:06,389
I don't know if it is just like
a Dan thing in the industry.

1911
01:45:06,450 --> 01:45:08,219
Uh, you know, I don't know.

1912
01:45:08,865 --> 01:45:09,615
Whatever it is.

1913
01:45:09,705 --> 01:45:11,475
Lots of dance, but lots dance.

1914
01:45:12,015 --> 01:45:12,465
Lots of dance.

1915
01:45:13,065 --> 01:45:14,295
It is been amazing.

1916
01:45:14,325 --> 01:45:18,285
Um, you know, I, this will go out
after Christmas, so again, we hope

1917
01:45:18,285 --> 01:45:19,755
that you've had a Merry Christmas.

1918
01:45:20,685 --> 01:45:22,155
Yeah, it's been a good ride so far.

1919
01:45:22,755 --> 01:45:24,135
More to go in 2024.

1920
01:45:25,425 --> 01:45:26,025
Sweet man.

1921
01:45:26,745 --> 01:45:27,795
So that's the episode.

1922
01:45:27,795 --> 01:45:28,785
I hope you enjoyed it.

1923
01:45:28,995 --> 01:45:33,465
I'd like to give one final shout out
to our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing

1924
01:45:33,735 --> 01:45:38,685
Grand Format Printer to the trade
GCI is not your average print shop.

1925
01:45:39,075 --> 01:45:44,055
They pride themselves on providing
you a fast stress-free experience when

1926
01:45:44,060 --> 01:45:46,305
outsourcing, there are no excuses.

1927
01:45:46,305 --> 01:45:50,475
Mindset means no matter the job,
they'll have it done every time.

1928
01:45:50,955 --> 01:45:54,885
No other vendor will go to the
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1929
01:45:54,885 --> 01:45:56,655
you are a satisfied customer.

1930
01:45:57,285 --> 01:46:01,485
To hear more about their approach to
business, hop back into the archives

1931
01:46:01,485 --> 01:46:05,384
to episode nine where the guys
and I interview owner TJ Beat Act

1932
01:46:05,655 --> 01:46:07,875
about top tier customer experience.

1933
01:46:08,325 --> 01:46:12,615
If you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, mesh,

1934
01:46:12,675 --> 01:46:17,835
core blasts and more, TJ and his
crew were small, GCI does them all.

1935
01:46:18,255 --> 01:46:21,525
Check them out@printgci.com.

1936
01:46:22,844 --> 01:46:26,235
If you liked this episode, make
sure you hit subscribe to get all

1937
01:46:26,235 --> 01:46:31,005
the latest episodes and check out
our website, better sign shop.com.

1938
01:46:31,665 --> 01:46:35,085
Get free resources and helpful
tools on growing your shop.

1939
01:46:35,355 --> 01:46:36,344
Thanks for listening.