Learn how to build a better sign and prt shop from a few crusty
sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit.
Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing,
workflow, growth, and more.
Your listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts, Peter Kunis,
Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.
Before we jump into the episode, I'd like to give a shout out to
our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing Grand Format Printer to the trade
GCI is not your average print shop.
They pride themselves on providing you a fast stress-free
experience when outsourcing.
There are no excuses.
Mindset means no matter the job.
They'll have it done every time.
No other vendor will go to the links that GCI does to ensure you are
a satisfied customer to hear more about their approach to business.
Hop back into the archives to episode nine where the guys and I interview owner tj
be act about top tier customer experience.
If you're looking for a high quality trade printer for banners, mesh, core
plast and more, TJ and his crew will have your back For jobs, big or small.
GCI does them all.
Check them out@printgci.com.
Hi guys.
Welcome back to another edition of the Better Science Shop podcast.
I'm your host, Brian Gillespie.
I'll be joined by my colleague Peter Unis, the Science Shop,
Yoda, in the actual episode.
But we had a bit of technical difficulties when we were originally
recording this episode, but I just wanted to come back with a quick intro
and say thank you for being a listener, and I really think you're gonna
enjoy this episode with our special guest, Dan Yoder of Sign Art Studio.
Back to the episode.
Alright guys, welcome back to the podcast.
I've got a very special guest, Mr.
Dan Yoder from uh, sign Art Studio.
Dan, huge fan of your work, man.
It is.
I, I don't often curse on the podcast, but it's fucking awesome, man.
I love the work that you guys do.
Was super excited when you reached out and, you know, um, I, I asked to
join us on the podcast for an episode.
Uh, we've already had a short chat previously.
Um, uh, you know, I think we've, we've got a great conversation
lined up, but hey, super curious to see where it takes us, but yeah,
me too.
Welcome on.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for having me.
It's, uh, it's an honor.
Uh, your guys', I stumbled across your podcast.
Somebody at the shop pointed it out and it was, it like every episode I listened to.
It was like kismet at the time.
Like, we're going through the same shit right now, you know?
So that's great.
I, uh, well, I felt the calling to, uh, to reach out to you guys and, and have a
conversation, so thanks for having me out.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, man.
That's what, that's what we're all about.
Like it to me, hey, like back in the old days, you know, there was like industry
forum and, and whatever, and, and like, people weren't super nice on there, but
it is just, it is, sometimes it's just nice knowing that you're not alone and
struggling with some of this stuff.
E even if you don't have a solution for some of the, the stuff that we face on a
daily basis, it's, it's nice to hear that other owners are struggling with the same
thing.
Exactly.
Yeah.
We, uh, I was just talking about that this morning.
You know, it's, uh, we're the hardest on ourselves, that's for sure.
And then you, you start talking to other people in the industry or, you know,
whether it's on a, a Facebook page or to a forum or listening to on a podcast.
Um.
You know, you're like, Hey, you're not alone in this.
So, so yeah, it's cool.
And it's, it's interesting, you know, and I'm sure we'll get into
it a little bit, but, you know, like Letterheads is such an, an inclusive
group of people wanting to share tips and tricks and, um, and all that.
But when you get into the, you know, the bigger shops, it seems like that
type of culture almost doesn't exist.
Nobody wants
to peel back the Yeah.
Nobody wants to show behind the curtain.
Uh, yep.
Yep.
So just because there's, there's a fear of losing the secret sauce
or whatever it is, but, right.
Yeah.
Uh, before we get too far into the weeds, why don't you, Hey, for
anybody who doesn't know, you know, like, give us an intro, uh, to sign
our studio and yourself, and, you know, tell us about your background.
What's, what's the story of, of your journey?
Well, thanks.
Yeah.
So, uh, my name's Dan Yoder.
Um, we sign art Studio here.
Uh, I've been.
Been in business since 2005.
But yeah, I, you know, always interested in art, you know, and, you know,
drawing like, uh, Metallica album covers and stuff like that as a kid.
And, um, so yeah, I, I just had a passion for art.
Um, I didn't know what way that would materialize as I,
you know, came into adulthood.
But yeah, I got a job at a sign shop when I was 19 years old.
And, uh, vital Signs and Verona, really great dudes.
Um, and they were still doing hand lettering, pin striping,
airbrushing, um, you know, a bunch of dimensional signs to gold leaf.
Everything was cut out on a bandsaw, you know, we didn't have
a CNC router, no digital printer.
Um, so I was fortunate to come up in a shop like that, and I remember walking in.
Like child wondering at like, Holyoke, is this a, is this a thing?
Like we can do this for a career.
So yeah, I fell in love with it right away at 19.
Um, and then I got fired very quickly after for being, you know, 19.
And, and it was, it was well deserved.
I remember, um, I was sitting, or I was asked to coat out some boards and there
was, there's a little bit of an art to that, you know, we used MDO all the time,
and so we coat out these boards and, you know, you'd oil base and do it with a foam
roller and, you know, you could roll the bubbles out and get it like glass glass.
And I remember Mark Kramer, um, who worked there, he, he's like, go
ahead and, and coat out these boards.
And for some reason I took him off the saw horse.
I sat down on the ground with the panel next to me and was rolling paint.
I'd roll it off the board onto the floor, from the floor, back onto the board,
putting all the crap from the floor on.
Can't do it.
So, long story short, my tenure didn't last long there, uh, in
the beginning, but, uh, I did come back, uh, I don't know, three
or four months later, um, my Oh,
okay.
You said they, they were willing to have you back then.
That's
good.
So, yeah, then I stuck, I think, uh, all in, I was there for six years.
Um, went to letterhead, meets all over the country, went to London for
a letterhead meet, so, uh Oh, wow.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Big exposure to letterheads.
And after my first meet, I mean, the hooks were in big time, a hundred percent.
So, yay.
That's it in a nutshell.
My, my background and how I arrived in this industry, not by, uh.
Wasn't intentional.
I just happened.
I happened to fall into it like many others, I I,
I'm not sure that there's anybody that I've talked to that was intentional.
Um, we just had a guest on James, um, that grew up in his parents' sign shop,
and that's all he ever wanted to do.
But like outside of that, I, I've not met too many people that were like, Hey, I, I
was, unless they grew up in the business, like they, you know, signage it is, it's,
they don't teach you that at school.
Like, pick a career day and it's like, oh, hey, you can make
a, a good living creating cool stuff that people pay you for.
Right.
Um, and, and you help businesses grow at the same time.
It's, you know, you know, I, and it wasn't, wasn't an option.
It's funny you say that 'cause it's been the same experience
with anyone I've ever talked to, um, other than we just hired, um.
A technical designer for a pre-production department.
John Nere, he's, um, lives in Cape Cod in Massachusetts, and turns out
he actually went to trade school in Boston to learn hand lettering, and he
was one of the last classes Oh, wow.
At this trade school.
So he's the only exception to that, and it seems like he eventually got into it.
Um, so yeah.
But yeah, most everybody I, I met, they just randomly fell into it and, and the
hooks got in just like the rest of us, so.
Yeah.
Hey, and once they're in, there's no getting out.
Exactly.
I know.
Walk me through how you started sign Art Studio.
Like what, you know, were you, was that right on the hills of, of when
you stopped working at Vital Signs or?
Yes.
Was there something in between there?
Like, yeah, walk me through that.
So.
I got fired, got so, and it was like it was the second time and the last time.
Um, and we won't get, we won't get into the circumstances of that, but you know,
Mike, uh, Chamberlain, the former owner of Vital Science, he's since retired,
um, and then sold it to Mark Kramer.
Both of those guys are my mentors, really amazing people.
Uh, but we're on great terms.
We have been for a long time, so we moved past, uh, that, that point in time.
But, but yeah, I, I, you know, we got actually my, my dad and I were gonna
build custom hardwood furniture and so we had kind of started, um, a side
gig doing that, and then it turned out we wanted to do it full time.
So, um, but then that, you know, while that was happening, so this
was back in 2005 when I was 25 at the time, you know, there wasn't
any income from that in that moment.
So that's when I started Syn Art Studio.
At the time, actually, I got a job offer from a local, um, semi dealer, a
Peterbilt dealership, um, to basically start the graphics department.
So, you know, when they sell, when they sell a truck, you know, you
could get a whole custom, a whole custom gi up on your vehicle.
Um, and they offered me like a $60,000 salary and I was like,
holy at that time for me, that was, you know, that was all Oh yeah.
And, um, especially
being young, it's, yeah, like somebody, somebody throws more than a couple hundred
dollars a week at you, you're like, holy.
Yep, yep.
Exactly.
So I, uh, you know, it was, you know, at the time, the, the girlfriend
I was with at the time, she said, you know, 'cause I'm like, I don't
know what I, what do I wanna do?
And she said, well, if you take that job, will you always wonder what
could have been or will you start.
A sign shop and always wonder what could have been if you
would've take, taken that job.
So that was an easy, it was like, you know, you so let's do it.
But yeah, then I, so I started that in, in, in 2005.
Um, just a, a one man operation.
I think the first couple months I just worked out of a
corner in my parents' garage.
Um, but yeah, I just hit the, hit the streets and looked for signs that
either needed an update or businesses that didn't have a sign to begin with.
And yeah, so a couple months after, um, I moved into 150 square foot
shop, uh, just right here in town, no bathroom or anything like that.
And I had a buddy of mine who helped, helped help part-time.
Um, but yeah, I was gonna sit on a stool and hand carve and hand paint signs.
And then somewhere it was probably 2000.
Six into 2007, um, moved into a, a bigger shop.
I think the workspace we had was about 1500 square feet.
And, um, got a, a job to design and build a monument side for a
local, uh, office park development.
And, and I had a blast designing it.
It wasn't anything that we'd really done when I worked at Vital Science, you know,
it was more of an architectural approach.
Sure.
And that changed the whole direction of, of Sign Art Studio.
And we started moving into, you know, slowly but surely moving into
bigger commercial developments.
Um, and eventually in 2007 we got our Ewell, um, listing.
And yeah, we kind of took a, a departure from what I thought I
would do, which is again, do all sorts of hand painting all the time.
So, yeah, that and, and at that time.
So it was 2007, there was three of us.
And then in, so it's 20 21, 20 24.
We've been in this space for six years and we moved into this space.
There was five of us, and now we have 28.
Wow.
A lot of growth.
So it's just in the last few years, like growth has exploded then.
Yep, yep.
And I was, you know, I was gonna keep it small.
We didn't really look for work.
People kind of came to us and just decided at a point in time, you know, we
had carved out a little bit of a niche.
You know, we weren't doing anything that, that other shops couldn't do.
We just started doing stuff that other shops weren't doing anymore.
Uh, and I think that, that, ah, I got you.
Yeah.
You know, it, it, it carved out a little bit of a niche.
Some, you know, design is hugely important.
You know, I think that's the basis of everything, um, as far as I'm concerned.
And, you know, my training was, was from a, a letterhead and
assigned painting standpoint.
So I think that gave a leg up in some ways.
You know, I honestly, I think if there's a, a crux in our industry, um, at times
I think it's designed, I think it's, it's undervalued and sometimes I see
signage work that I'm just saying, really.
Like, that's really, and I get it, you know, customer could have been
involved or they're, you know, my, my niece designed this logo for me.
So it's gotta be that, you know, I know the story.
That's, that's
what we're rolling with.
Yeah.
So, well, it's, it's, it's such a, yeah.
Like everything that we do is design driven and, you know, I, I had a call
with, uh, some newer sign shop owners a couple weeks ago, and like, they
were stressed out about the business side of it, but the, the husband
was a, a former graphic designer.
What he did, and I was like, dude, you're gonna be okay.
Like, just lean on that because that'll get you, like the guy who
buys a, a plotter and a printer who has no design background.
Like, you'll beat that guy every time if you just lean on that aspect of it.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
And so that, that helped a lot for us at least, you know, establishing a corner
of a, of a market and I wasn't stepping on my former employer's toes, and so
it worked out, worked out pretty good.
Gotcha.
So you stayed in the, the same area then?
Yeah.
We're, we're, we're about 25 minutes west of Madison, uh, Wisconsin, so.
Okay, got it.
Um, yeah, and, and vital signs is 10 minutes from my shop, so.
Oh, okay.
Yep.
Oh good.
And hey, like, looking at your work, man, it's, it is clear, clear to me like.
How that is, is like influenced.
But, um, before we dive into like the, the art and like, versus business side
of it, like, you've got 28 people, what does the, what does the team look like?
What, you know, how do projects flow?
Like those sorts of things.
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
So we, we have, uh, what's going, Peter?
Oh, there's Pete.
What's up, Pete?
Hello?
Yeah, we got you, dude.
All right.
We good?
Yeah, we hear you.
You're good.
Alright, cool.
Sorry I'm late.
Oh, all good man, Dan.
Amen.
I'm, I'm great.
Thank you.
So yeah, we have our, our client experience department, that we have
our, our two account executives.
Um, our design team, well design team consists of, I'm the director of design.
I don't do.
I kind of pick and choose on the design projects I work on,
but we have a lead designer.
Um, and then we have another designer that works part-time.
Um, so in our client experience, we have design, uh, our account executives,
and then our project management team is then client experience.
Then we have our pre-production department, and there's three
people, uh, on that team.
Um, Kurt Crawford, our technical director, he's been with me for the long haul
since there was, it was just him and I.
So he's been here about 13, going on 14 years.
So he runs the pre-production department, which is all the technical
design, how we're gonna build it.
Uh, then we have our production team, um, does all the fab work, of course.
And then our field operations team who handles all of the, uh,
all the installs, our surveys.
All the survey work is, is part of the pre-production team, which is
something that we kind of re-looked at versus it being typically
part of the install crew side.
Um, we figured that the pre-production department needed
to source the proper information.
Um, so we kept our, we have our surveyors technically part of
the, our pre-production team.
So that's it in a, in a, in a
nutshell.
Do you guys, I, maybe I missed it.
Did you guys have any sales reps, like any account executives or, yeah,
so that's in our client experience.
Yeah.
We got two account executives.
Okay, gotcha.
Yeah.
And, and two project managers.
So, um, yeah, we just, so we had run without a project manager at all for
quite a while until it just got too much for, you know, our account executives
to manage everything from start to end.
So they don't even have, or our executives don't even have a full year
of having project management assistance.
It's only about six, seven months old.
So, uh, we're, we're like a startup again, as we keep telling ourselves,
which makes it a little easier, you know, uh, when things aren't
going, as soon as we know they can,
a little more palatable.
Yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
What are you guys doing?
Roughly like annual revenue?
Just, just so like the listeners have got like a, a sense of Yeah.
Size.
Yeah.
So we're gonna, we're, we're gonna close up the year.
We're gonna be just under 5 million this year, so, um, yeah, last year, 4.7.
So, so, yeah, it's, uh, you know, we wanted, we wanted this year to
be modest growth over last year and really, you know, last year was.
Very chaotic.
It just was, you know, we had a, a, I think it was a 37% growth and on
top of that growth from a revenue standpoint, just growing a team.
You know, a lot of people who've never been in this industry joined our team.
And, you know, a lot of, uh, tripping at times, you know,
which was, was challenging.
But starting, that's starting to hit our stride or we have a long way to go, but,
um, really starting to hit our stride and really excited for 2024, I think.
Um, we're not planning for growth in 24.
We'll wanna stay, you know, right in that 5 million range, um, and really work on.
Refining our processes and, um, working on the profit side of things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Definitely Something I wanna touch on.
Yeah.
Uh, what was your experience like?
You, you're growing, you're bringing in people from outside the industry, right?
Like, do you feel that's worked out well for you, or do you feel
like it would be better if you had people who were actually experienced?
Uh, it's a topic I hear come up quite a bit in our, in our own group of
like, Hey, I need to hire somebody.
Do I hire somebody who's knows nothing about signage or do I hire somebody,
try to find somebody who has experience?
Yeah, that's a, that's a a good question.
And I would say the jury's out on that.
Um, you know, there's big advantages obviously of, of
finding someone of good experience.
And we've got, you know, our, like our lead designer, Matt, he's been.
You know, in the, in the industry forever, in some form.
You know, he took a couple diversions into like working for an ad ad agency.
Um, Kirk, he's been, he's got a very similar background that I do.
Um, one of our project managers, she worked for Jones and so she's got,
um, experience, uh, one of our account executives, Allie, she worked for
another sign company, um, here in the Madison area as a project coordinator.
Um, so there's, there's definitely benefit to that.
Uh, there's, you know, it's been nice with our project manager Lindsay.
Um, you know, when we hired our project managers, we were very clear.
We don't really even know what this role means for us to
be a hundred percent honest.
And we're looking for you guys to not only assist in developing.
The process around project management, you know, where did the handoffs happen,
but also, you know, actually, you know, executing on the, on the will itself.
So now there's also on the other side, it's nice to bring people in
and develop 'em, um, from scratch.
And, and it's not like any one we brought in would have, you know, they've usually
got construction background or, you know, welding or fabrication background.
And so you, you do have a little bit of a learning curve just to kind of
help 'em understand, especially like on the fabrication side, you know,
like the fit and finish expectations we've got out there right now.
You know Adam Federman, who's our shop supervisor, um, he's a literally
a, a, a world class car builder.
He worked for a, a.
A company I about 15 minutes, west Europe, a car building company, and they want cma.
So I mean, he's got a very high level of expectation.
And so it's kind of like, Hey, we understand that, but we're
building signs, you know?
Um,
yeah.
Yeah.
So there's some, so it is not like you're bringing in people that are
not, like they, they have experience just not necessarily in signage.
Right, exactly.
Yeah.
And that same with the on the field crew, you know, and they're, they're really hit
their stride now, and that's just in a, within a year, you know, a year or two.
So, I don't know, man, I don't know which ones, which one's better.
Um, I think they both have value, uh, in certain ways.
Yeah.
I, and there's, I don't think there's, there's necessarily
a right or wrong answer.
It's Sure, right.
Just a, a, a question I thought was interesting.
Yeah, that's come up.
Hey, like, Hey, hey, the, the fit and finish really comes through.
Uh, and if you're listening to this right now and you're on your computer
or you're on your phone, hopefully you're not driving, but if you go to
their website, make signs, not war.com and, and just take a look at their
projects, just to kind of give you context of what we're talking about.
But I, I wanted to like transition into like this, this
concept of art versus business.
I, I didn't know how to frame it when I was putting together the
notes, but, uh, about the time.
I, I would say it was probably about the same time that you were coming up, right?
Like, uh, mid two thousands, like all the equipment was getting super cheap.
Like, it, it, to me, I was in the business around the, the same time of,
uh, a little bit after you, but like.
It felt like the whole industry kinda shifted to, like, how, how much square
footage of signage can we print?
Or just like, how much stuff can we push out the door versus, you know,
hey, like you look at hand lettering and foil and, and like carving and,
and all these things that kind of like took a seat during that time.
Yeah.
Um,
yeah, I mean that, that, yeah, go ahead.
Uh, no, I was gonna say is that, you know, growing up, well, I won't say growing up,
but getting your feet under you in the industry under vital signs, obviously like
helped push you in that direction, but it, like, it is clear looking at your work.
Like you guys focus heavily on, like, this is really well designed.
It's like there's an art focus to it.
Like, what's your take on just like.
Like that era, like have you seen a shift back to like the
craftsmanship in the industry?
Like Yeah.
You know, just what's your take over the last 10, 20 years of the industry?
Yeah, definitely.
It's, that's a great question.
Um, and, and it's one that has come up often and, and you know, just
around here in terms of, you know, talking with the team and helping 'em
understand a little bit of the history of the company and, you know, some of
the culture and the, the core values.
One of our core values is that we honor our trades, tradition traditions.
Um, because I do think that's so important.
I know that, you know, like you said in that two thousands, 2005 on when I
started Sign Art Studio, I think there was a, the Dark Ages honestly of, of
signages, like digital printers, you know, that became a, a big thing.
And also like red channel letters everywhere, because I think,
yeah, red, LED was the cheapest, I think when LED started coming out.
I remember that.
And so everything was like red channel letters and you know, I don't, I
can't pinpoint a hundred percent when the, the shift started to happen.
And, and I don't know if it was more, 'cause we never really got into that.
That just wasn't, I wasn't interested in it, but it did seem like probably,
you know, out after the, you know, 2008, 2009, 2010, I'd say, right?
In 2010, 11 and on, um, things started to shift.
People wanted something that was not that.
And I think the pendulum sw, you know, I don't know if it's the hipster, whatever
generation, you know, like, we're like, Hey, we don't want this crap, you know?
Can, can we correlate that back to like the price of PBR?
Maybe, like, we'll have, we'll have to go back in there, look at numbers.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, definitely there were, there was a shift in, uh, I think also then a
shift in our mentality here as we, you know, were starting to, uh, get more of a
footprint and some credibility, but always wanting to come from that traditional
foundation that I had, you know, with, with letterheads and sign painting, we
weren't painting signs all the time, but from a design standpoint, good design, um,
let's look at different materials to use.
And once I kind of broke out of that, you know, sign painter type mentality
and graphics, because we did a ton of trunk lettering, you know, which was,
they were a blast, you know, it would be a combination of hand lettering, vinyl,
and striping airbrushing, you name it.
But once I kind of explored more and we got more into this architectural stuff,
the whole whole world opened out, you know, fabrication, welding, uh, you know,
stainless aluminum natural wood finishes.
And so I think it just was the right, it was a good timing for it.
And certainly in, in Madison, you know, it's a, a, a creative town
with creative individuals and I think our product fit well with
the market here, and we're offering something that nobody else really was.
You know, at the time, two big sign shops went down in 2008 to
2010, you know, and they were, they've been around for a long time.
And so once that happened, there was no other UL listed electrical
sign manufacturers in our area.
Uh, there is one, there is one, um, Wisconsin signing graphics.
Good dudes.
They're, I think they're a two person shop, but for what we were
doing and, and where we're going, we didn't have any competition for
actually fabricating, um, in our shop.
We have some competition that, you know, they're brokers,
um, and that has their place.
But, so yeah, I don't know.
It it, we started offering something a little different.
Um, just a little bit of a, a tweak on, on what else is going on.
And it's working needs, needs, like I said, we're working on the profit
part, but the rest is working well.
Well, I, yeah, man.
Uh, you know, I think a lot of us got into this industry for like, the craft of it.
Like, Hey, I could build cool stuff.
And I, and I hate to see like, when shops lose that and it's just like a, a focus
on like the business side of it, because it is, to me, this is a personal industry.
Like, you know, I'm always, you know, and it, it came through when
we were talking with Dan Ky Yeah.
Of like.
How can I one up myself?
Like, I'm not competing with anybody else.
It's like, how can, how are we gonna one up ourselves or,
or our peers, uh, for that's
a, that is another, and it's important that, you know, I'll, I'll speak on
this because I, I, I've spoke about this at the shop here, is I want if a,
if a, if a sign nerd walks up to our signs, I want them to be like, oh, okay.
That's, that one's legit.
They did a nice job on this.
You know, so I'm, we're building for ourselves and then also
probably for our peers, you know?
Um, right on, right on.
Keep it, keep, it keeps everybody aligned on a common goal, right?
Like if you're, if you are getting business from other clients because of
your craftsmanship, that's one thing.
But if you're getting it from technicians, sign makers, your peers, you know, from
shops or even your own shop, I mean, it's really good to get that level of, uh.
Satisfaction.
I have a quick question, um, for, for you here, Dan.
And, and this is kind of going back to uh, just something that you briefly mentioned
maybe like five or six minutes ago, and that's bring you bringing people in.
That are green in the industry and kind of bringing them into your team here.
Uh, and yes, I mean obviously everybody really wants to try and
find a level of experience when they are hired, but what is it that you do
in your, in your business, um, with your team to onboard a new employee?
How do you train them?
What are your methods?
What do you, what do you like to do, uh, when, in any role, for that
matter, whether it's a designer, a, a production specialist, um, I was
just taking a look at your website.
You got a lot of people on your team in a lot of different departments.
So whether it's a project manager or an installer, what do, what type of
modules do you have for each particular role to train somebody in their lane?
That's
a, a great question, Pete.
Uh, majority of it is three words, uh, trial by fire, um, which,
you know, we're working on that.
It, it's, it's.
I'm glad you brought that up.
And, and I say that half joking, but up until probably four or five years ago,
that was a hundred percent the case.
We didn't really, we really started developing process and procedure
probably only six or seven years ago.
And so those of of us who were on the team that only came on, you know,
within the last two years or, or even the last year, um, there wasn't much in
the realm of, of modules or training.
It's just dig in and, um, learn as you go, which is a lot of how I learned.
Um, but I would say, you know, like our, our project managers, we do have, I mean,
we have spent, I don't know, thousands of hours, I'm sure on developing a process
and then, you know, something works and then it doesn't, uh, we tweak it.
But yeah, I would it more, just more recently.
Um, I would say like on the project management side, our account executives,
you know, they have, we've got some good process in place at this point, but, you
know, moving forward, uh, you know, real training program as something that, you
know, we wanna work harder on for sure.
And I think that right now, basically shadowing shadow.
Yeah.
It seems pretty common.
Yeah, that's common.
We had a guest here, uh, earlier on in the year and they had a full-time
trainer on staff for all divisions.
I'm not sure if you've heard that.
Uh,
I did.
I listened to that one.
Been.
In the back of my mind a a topic of conversation, especially when you're
working with an organization with as many employees as you have that does
the gross numbers that you have that specializes in the work that you produce.
I mean, it's nothing short of spectacular.
You guys do great work.
Um, you portfolio is amazing.
As a sign maker, as a sign fabricator, I look at this sort of thing and I'm
like, man, this guy just gets it.
There's some of this work here, like, uh, this tattoo shop sign
and all the dimension and the level of design that goes into that,
uh, the materials that were used.
I mean, you just know living outside the box, like you're not a light
box in sign face type of shop.
You're, you're the type of shop that's gonna take that, that level of design
and, and really make your stamp, make your mark in your own community there.
But with, with that, and I'm gonna push back on Bryant here a little bit.
We don't often disagree on something, but this is a point where I do disagree.
Okay.
This business, this business is founded upon the graphic design.
Mm-Hmm.
Quality craftsmanship, right?
Yeah.
This industry back, you can go all the way back to the wild West.
There were sign shops.
Okay.
Absolutely.
There were shops that were hand painting signs.
This industry has been around for generations, so it's founded upon
a craft, an art, the artisan skill.
But here in today's day and age, especially with all the technology
that we have in front of us, uh, now with things like what you could
do with AI and Photoshop, I mean, it's, it's revolutionizing, it's
revolutionizing our industry, but it is.
Taking the artistry out of it to some extent.
I think there will be a lot of people that would disagree with that statement.
But there it's, it is impacting that.
But what it's not impacting is the business side.
And the business side is the ugly hat of, well, one of the many
hats we all wear as owners, right?
It's the right, we have to take a margins, we have to take a
look at those percentage points.
Where can we improve upon, uh, where are the inefficiencies?
Where are the easy, low hanging fruit mark margins that we can improve upon?
To put more profit in our business.
And, and one of those areas that I often talk about is training
because it's not something, in my opinion that you should do one time.
It's not something that you should be doing once a year.
It's something that you should be, it's more of like a mindset, like
what are you, what is your team doing each and every day to become better?
Whether that's taking a class, going for, you know, going for a training class.
Now, what are those areas of improvement that you can learn
from throughout the year?
There has to be some sort of, uh, in order to get to a shop like you, at your
level, you have to have some sort of.
Continuing, uh, continuing training for your employees,
but not necessarily just there.
It's how they get started too.
If you're spending money on an employee and we all know what that feels
like, that is not performing because they're just taking a little bit of
time to ramp up, to get familiar with your processes, to get familiar with
your software, the, the, the, the, your system workflow, if you will.
It takes time.
Even me, if I, if I was hired to come work with you, it would take
me a certain period of time to get acclimated to your systems.
And I, I like to think it wouldn't take very long, but it could
take longer than I might think.
Yeah, right.
But the, so, so again, we're, we'll come back to your ownership
hat here, Dan, for a moment.
Yeah, absolutely.
Do you think that, is this where we disagree?
Yeah, because I think that this is about business.
I think that there is some pieces that you have to put your
business hat on and forget about.
Yeah.
We, we make great, amazing products and services and, you know,
we love our community, right?
We love our clients and, you know, wherever, wherever the profit lands, the
profit lands, like no, let's, let's be a little bit more strategic about it, right?
Training, onboarding, uh, profit and loss management.
These are all pieces of making a more profitable company so that you can grow
the company so that you can maybe bring on additional labor, additional equipment,
additional areas to bring in revenue.
You cannot bring on another salesperson, another five salespeople.
Bring on a sales fleet of vehicles that are wrapped for your brand
and go drive around, right?
You can't do that if there's no money in the till.
So I don't know if I a hundred percent agree with Brian saying like, ah, is,
this is where people get confused.
It's mostly about being, you know, awesome artists and not business owners.
Like let, don't No, no, no, no, no.
That's not what I'm, that's not what I'm saying, man.
And I'm saying that's why most people get into the industry, right?
Like, yeah.
Not like, Hey, I, I'm make a business amazing business out of this.
It's like, Hey, I can build cool stuff and get paid to do that.
And Yeah, well that's, we're talking about Origins like,
well that's funny.
That's how it starts though.
That's how it starts.
Because you got into this business as a designer, thinking you're gonna
be a great design designer, but you, that, that doesn't necessarily
mean you're gonna be a great owner.
So,
I
mean, this is, yeah, this is exactly the, I don't wanna say crux, but
almost every damn trade related business that's started is because.
That individual thought that they could do a better job than
the place that they weren't.
Right.
And oh, yeah.
The barber that thought they could be, he could cut hair better than his boss.
Like Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's, it's, it's a, it's a line right out of the E-Myth method, right?
So, yep.
Exactly.
You're a technician, you're a technician, and you're jumping into a
business because you think you could do your job better than your boss.
But really, I'm not saying, I'm not criticizing you, Dan, at all.
I'm not, and I don't wanna go on a, on a tangent here too far away
from the question, but the, you're, you have a successful business.
You employ a lot of people.
You do, you do amazing work.
But what are the areas that your shop can improve upon to add to the bottom line?
That's a very simple way of asking the question.
And so, and I want you to focus on the business side, not the, not
the artisan side of the business.
Well, let, let me also let, let's, what I will also add to this conversation
and, and clarify is we have a very robust cost tracking, um, systems in place that
really finally started kind of getting on plane in the last quarter of 23 here.
Um, but we've been, been working on it for quite a while.
So we do have systems in place.
We have monthly managers meetings.
Um, we do wip, we do work in a full work in process schedule, um, every month.
And so we have Hey,
Pete, like you, you would shit at their schedule, dude.
Pete would geek out on it.
Yeah.
Like, like if you show 'em the spreadsheet.
Yeah.
And I, I have it pulled up and I can here in a second, but yeah, so
we have, we have that, we have this labor capacity planning tool that.
Um, that Bryant was just mentioning.
Our team works with most of our team works with a business coach.
Um, we're actually in 24 'cause I couldn't, everywhere I looked
and everywhere I turned it's EOS traction, EOS traction.
So we actually are, are onboarding that and 24.
So in, in terms of the foundational business aspect of the company,
that is an area obviously when I started this, I didn't, didn't
pay any attention to it all.
But that started probably seven years ago, I would say seven, eight years ago.
Um, where we got serious about that and it's taken all of that time to
get to where we are in a lot of trial by fire, what's working, what's not.
So there we do have those foundations, um, in place now.
And also one of our core values is we are profitable.
So that is something that is extremely important and also is that, you know,
where do you draw the line between what you're passionate about and
your craft and, and that bottom line.
And that is something that we have been up against for the, certainly
the last probably, well, I'd say it started, you know, when Covid
started, um, because right around then we started growing the company is,
you know, to where we're at today.
So we have those in place now in terms of, uh, uh, formatted training.
Um, that is something that we want to get better at for sure.
You know, like on the sales team, you know, my wife joined on two
years ago, sales is her background.
So she runs the client experience department and they have their
weekly huddles and, you know, go through their forecasts.
Um, so it's not like it.
And this is a bunch of people running around without structure and.
Or anything like that.
It is very much a company, it is very much, uh, needs to be profitable.
Uh, we are keep a close eye on our direct build time versus our overhead time and,
you know, so there's a a ton of huge, big positive shifts that, that have happened
in the last couple years in that regard.
Uh, but I think the area, certainly where we, we feel or fell short or,
or falling short is what is that, um, regimented training or improvement.
Um, what does that look like?
And I think we're gonna be delving into that with more consistency
as we onboard this EOS system.
You know, over the next, you know, well 24 and beyond, digging
into what, what the issues are.
And we do, we do this, it's, you know, with our managers meetings, um, we got QC.
Stuff in place, um, you know, for every, every department.
So it's there, it's just, it's, it's in what I would consider a startup phase
where we're, we're understanding now what it's like to be a company versus a
shop that quite frankly feels like was leisurely making signs back in the day.
It wasn't that, but where we're at now goes, is where we were then.
It feels like that.
So yeah, it's not just, it's not just a, um, couple people, you know, in a
club hanging out, making signs anymore.
It's, it's, this is, this is the real deal and it's high stakes,
um, you know, with all the people we have and the families that rely
on, on the decisions that are made.
So, I don't know if I answered your question, Pete, a hundred
percent, but at least wanted to.
Let you know that there's quite a bit of, of foundation to
what we're doing right now, so
Yeah.
I I don't think, and you don't get to 5 million if you, if you don't have
some of those things.
That's exactly, that's exactly the point I was trying to say.
Yeah.
It, it wasn't implying that you were not, it was saying, you,
you need to be doing something.
And I would love to know what that was.
And I got a lot of nuggets there, and I think our listeners are too.
I mean, not every shop, not every shop that we, that listens to us is, is
at 4 million as quickly as you did.
As quickly as you got there.
Yeah.
And, and not everybody has the same story.
And I'm, and I'm on your website and reading what your story is.
I'm trying to get a little bit of more of a backstory here.
But you have to have processes, you have to be focused on profit.
It seems like you have, um, an EOS focus, which is, I.
Right up my alley and really happy to hear about.
Yeah.
Uh, what, what is, let's, let's talk about that for a minute.
Is that a focus for next year?
Is that something that you've kind of brought on late this year?
Talk to me a little bit about that.
Yeah,
yeah.
So it's funny, you know, I have my business books and podcasts and, well,
audio books I'll say, I, I reading, uh, an actual book puts me to sleep immediately.
But I have been interested in, in that listening one that was hugely
impactful, was good to great.
Um, that was, I read that on don't know, probably six or seven
years ago that had a big impact.
Uh, the one thing, um, podcast and then also the book by, I think Gary Keller,
I think is the guy that Keller say.
So that's always, you know, as we've really started to decide to grow this
company, um, you know, something that.
Has been important for me to learn the business side because I, I've been a,
a, a craftsman, you know, most of this journey up until the last few years.
So, and then a associated of mine, a friend of mine, he recommended
this book Traction probably a year and a half, two years ago.
And I'll be honest, I, I was listening to it and I got about 30 minutes in.
I'm like, this is rookie shit.
I don't need this.
We're way past this.
We have these things in place.
So I didn't listen to it.
I didn't finish it.
And then, um, and we had a, a cash flow issue towards the end of last year.
That was a scary moment for, for me and, and my wife and all of us here.
Um, and I circled back to traction.
I'm like, oh my God.
Like, whoa, whoa.
Back up Dan.
We have so far to go.
And so yeah, just probably in the last couple months, um, getting serious,
working with our coach in terms of him, um, putting kind of the structure together
to kind of lead our, our team with this.
Um, and we have a dashboard built out and so yeah, we work, we work with
him and we just started digging in.
Um, so yeah, that's, I'd say, yeah, end of the, by the end of
the first quarter, I think the 24.
We wanna have found a, some rhythm to it, you know, the, the meeting, um, meeting
rhythm and just getting digging in.
We've always done, like I said, we've always had some form of this
through our coach that we work with.
Um, but I think, you know, really excited with this exact structure because
it really, I traction in that red.
What the heck is EOS, you know, you have where you guide to traction.
And it's really just a, an easy format to follow.
And so that's what I really liked about it.
Some of these business books and, and, and theories and all that stuff,
can, it can just get, it can get too deep almost in this, something
about the way EO put together Yes.
Just makes it really chewable.
Um, so yeah, that, that's where we're at with it.
Pete,
what do you, uh, as an owner and having read the book myself and apply it to
many different businesses, but in your, how do you apply it to your business?
Do you have an idea of what people are gonna be in those seats and
who's gonna be leading those teams?
Yeah.
Well, we already have, you know, we have a, we have an organizational chart.
We've had one for a number of years, and it gets updated as more people come on.
Um, you know, everybody's, most everybody's got a job description.
Um, so it's, it's taking what we already have in place, um, and kind of filtering
it through, you know, the EOS, you know, that, that system, um, and tweaking what
we already have in place, basically.
But I think the, what I'm really looking forward to is finding a rhythm
to actually solving, you know, some of these challenges that we face.
There's so much that happens in our, you know, our managers being,
we talk about these things, right?
And there's a lot of talk and, but getting it implemented,
um, has always been a struggle.
Um, and we've had a lot of successes, but, you know, a lot of times we have a lot
of failures in, in some of this as well.
So I think for me it's the format of it, um, taking what we already have
in place, uh, like our company values.
I'm just going through again and reevaluating.
We don't have a defined mission.
You know, um, so that's another one that I'm, I'm excited to, you
know, put down, put down on paper.
You know, I have, it's in my head and how we get that out.
So,
um, that's a, that's a fun one to always try to articulate after so many
years in the, the business, right?
Like, yeah.
When you're first starting out, you don't really realize like, hey, like
you're driven by something, right?
Yeah.
But like, when you have 28 people on staff, or you have 50 people, like,
that mission becomes like the, the underlying driver of, of just about
everything that you guys do, right?
It's gotta come back to that.
Yeah.
And it, it's, you know, the other thing too is just, is ultimately getting a
hundred percent clarity on, on what we do want, what the future does look like.
Uh, you know, I, you know, there's a, a very common conversation with the company
is as a goal of $10 million a year, but then also I'm like, well, what, what is.
Why is that the goal?
You know, why is it 10?
What's magic about 10 million versus doing the type of work we wanna do, having
the profit margins that we wanna have.
Um, you know, because when, when you have that, that trifecta of,
um, are you the best around at it?
Um, are you passionate about it and are you making money doing it, then what
more really do you need in the end?
Um, and so that's a, that's a thing that I have to get clear on, you know,
my wife and I is, what do we want out of this, you know, five years,
10 years, 15 years down the road?
Um, so we can really get, get clear and get everybody in line with that.
We already do have client classifications, um, C through A plus through C.
We have S type classifications that we, we put together as well,
so we can start to understand.
Okay.
So, you know, we know the type of clients we wanna work with.
How many of those clients do we actually work with?
Uh, we know the type of signs we want to build.
Um, how many of those signs are we building and, and are we profitable,
you know, with those types of signs?
And the interesting thing is the ones that we enjoy the most doing
for the most part, are the ones that we're the most profitable and
yet we continue to take work that we're not terribly interested in.
Um, you know, so there, it's all part of what I'm excited about onboarding, EO Ss,
we have all this great data collected.
We haven't done much to arrange it.
So the other one I'm excited about is scorecard.
Uh, what type of information we're gonna be, um, putting together for that.
So, so, yeah, I think, uh, man,
yeah.
Lots of stuff to unpack there.
Uh, yes.
Hey, I, I love the mindset of like, like, hey, why, why
do we need to hit 10 million?
Because it is, it is almost that same treadmill that we have on
like the consumer side of it.
Like, Hey, we want a bigger house, we want a better car.
We want all this stuff.
But like, you apply that so many owners that we talk to apply
it to business as well of like, Hey, I gotta get to a million.
What do you, are you just gonna stop when you get to a million?
Like, are, are, what happens the day you hit a million dollars
in sales in your sign shop?
Do you just automatically go in confetti falls from the sky and
everything is gravy at that point?
No, it's, it's more of the same, right?
Yeah.
It's the, it's the next step.
So like, when, when is enough?
Enough?
Um, and I'm glad to hear that you're.
Like that's top of mind for you right now?
Yeah.
What's, what, what really is, is top of mind, you know?
And, and as I have gone through and, and re-looking at our, our company
values, um, and rearranging, first and foremost is, is we have fun.
And number two is we are profitable.
And that is the mo I we need to have fun.
And I think a lot of times, well, for us it's just the last couple
years anyway, um, you know, letting that, uh, that business because
you need the numbers, right?
Like Peter's saying, you need, need to understand your company.
And, um, that in all, in all honesty, was something that I never imagined that
I would have to be paying attention to.
I was gonna have a couple persons sign up and that was that.
And so there's been, you know, a lot of stress, you know, over the last few years.
One thing that's been been interesting that I've been learning about myself
is, and this is just in the last couple months, and, you know, I don't, I
don't want to be a, a Debbie Downer, but my father-in-Law passed away,
um, fairly recently and unexpectedly.
And he was this, oddly enough assigned painter, um, had his own shop, and
it, there was a, it was a, pardon my French, but like, chill the fuck out.
Like what?
Like, have fun.
Look at the industry you're in.
Look what you get to do on a daily basis.
And so how are we getting our team aligned with that too?
Because everybody cares so much, right?
But when a shit hits the fan, it's just, it's ugh.
But we've always figured out a, a solution to every problem that we've run into.
We have managed to make our customers happy most every time.
Um, like, we'll figure it out.
So what's been interesting is, is I have been working more on the
business in the last couple years.
Just in the last couple months I've been like, had to go out and I did some reverse
hand painted lettering on glass for a customer on their storefront windows.
Um, I was in the shop building sign over the weekend last fabricated
aluminum neon hand lettering.
When I get to do the thing that I got into this for and get to have that
outlet, my mind, it's cathartic for me.
And so I now 24, I need that because when my mind can, it
becomes a zen moment for me.
Not to sound corny, but if I'm lettering a sign, I'm not thinking
about anything in that moment.
You know, I'm listening to a podcast room,
everything else shuts off.
Yeah.
And the, the quality of my decision making increases.
I'm able to show up better for my team.
Um, so that's, uh, I know I kind of diverted a little bit, but that
working back in the business, which I think in some ways is a little
bit of like, what do you mean you gotta, you're going backwards.
No, I'm not.
I need that.
I need that outlet.
So if I can get 10 hours a week in the shop or out in the field, um, that
has, and also it's, you know, quite frankly to let the people know in
the shop that I can build signs too.
I'm not just the guy sitting in the office still,
still got it.
So I, I think it like this, that self-awareness man is crucial.
And, and like, how many guys have we talked to in, in the
group, Pete, that are like.
Hey, I need all these processes.
I, I need to learn how to be a better manager.
Yeah.
And, and it's just like, you know, I, I've talked to several guys that
are like, Hey, I need to, to figure this side of the business out.
Like, I, I need to, Hey, there's been several people that we're gonna buy
a franchise just for the processes side of it that I've talked to.
Yeah.
Like they've already got a successful business, but they're getting ran over
by it and at, and at some level, right.
You're, it's okay to not be like, Hey, I'm not a middle manager or
I'm not an operations manager.
Like, you can admit that to yourself, but it's, and you could be okay with, like,
you've taken the steps, like you've gone full circle and now you'd know for, for
my stress levels, for, for me personally and for me to be a better owner, like
I, I need, I need to get my hands dirty once in a while, and that's okay.
Right?
Yeah.
But you, you've also got the other pieces in place to be able to do that.
And the, the message here that I would say to everybody is like, if you have
the self-awareness to know, like, yes, I'm the owner of this business.
Yes, I still love to make signs, but I, I don't necessarily
want to be a the manager.
Like, I don't wanna manage the whole team.
Like, it's okay.
Like, yeah, hire somebody to manage operations, like take
steps towards that person.
Don't just spin your wheels and say, Hey, I need to get better about processes.
Like, if you know yourself well, you know, hey, and you know you're
not gonna make progress on it.
Hire a coach, you know.
When did, when did you guys start working with a coach Dan?
Um,
I think this probably five years ago now.
Four or five years ago.
Um, it was a, well no god time.
There's, I don't know about you guys, but it's about a two year
vacuum and time from about.
Late 20 19, 20 20 to 2022 ish.
Um, so yeah, probably five years ago now we started working with a coach and that
was through, um, the One thing podcast.
So I reached out through their format or through, you know, whatever, one
of the links I've been podcast and got connected with, with Dave, Dave Goodall.
And so, yeah, that's, you know, that's kind of when it all really got momentum.
You know, I wrote like a manifesto on the customer experience.
I remember digging in on, in, in, on that.
And really kind of, that was kind of the start of, of, of it.
And then, uh, also my dad worked here for about six years.
Um, and he's got a business background and, and leading up to that, you know,
he, we'd meet once a month, he'd come up to the shop and we'd talk about things.
So all that, you know, developing the business side of it.
I said I was probably seven, eight years old, 6, 7, 8 years old.
And that was really my core focus and every day further and further away
from building science, from designing science, from being out in the field.
And, and that's the natural progression, right?
Of, of, you know, becoming more of a leader, um, and showing up for
your people in that regard versus, you know, being a, a technician.
But like I said, I'm finding that I need that outlet that's really, I'd
like to make things with my hands.
That's what, you know, what, what brings me the greatest amount of, greatest
amount of satisfaction and allows me to be better for my people and show up
because I, you know, I'm a, I've got high expectations and, um, you know,
so having that outlet has been, or, or realizing that I need that outlet,
I guess as of late, um, has been.
Been good.
Definitely.
Yeah.
That's great, man.
Well, I was just gonna say the other thing too about process, right?
Um, the other day I've just kind of like, there, there is a time when the
process should be and can be diverted.
And when we built such rigid walls everywhere, um, process can, at
times I feel, anyway I've learned is it can stifle, it can make it more
inefficient, um, in certain ways.
And so that's another big push in 24 is how do we define, you know, when, when
are we gonna script the process, right?
Because our, this company is so built and tuned around, you know, and more
complex fabrication type projects, you know, so when like a door vinyl
job comes in, it's like, you know, like we're a, we're a battleship.
Going down a little creek, it just doesn't, you know, that offset
doesn't, it's a good analogy.
Doesn't work, uh, all that well.
You know, and then at times, you know, I think process can be used
to like, you're doing it wrong, you know, follow the process.
And so where's the balance in all that?
And I think that's something that I'm eager, 'cause we've gotten so almost
robotic in, in certain ways, um, that that can bite you the ass too.
You know, if you're not, if you're so rigid all the time and you, you can't be
a little bit flexible when you need to be.
You know, that can make things not as, as far as they could be.
A former
colleague of mine, uh, Don, I don't know if you're listening to this, but she
used to say there was the processes.
Then there was the process for managing the processes and knowing like when
shit needs to go or when to, you know, create new processes, adapt those things.
And I, I definitely agree with you because like, I love systems and
processes like, but like, if it doesn't make sense to me, like I just, I,
like I don't adhere to it at all.
I know
that that's, yeah.
And then I'll get, you know, and we'll develop this thing.
Everybody will have their input and then we'll, we'll make the bible,
whatever the thing is, is it a tweak on a change order process or warranty
or, or service jobs or whatever.
And then something will land in my lap with some, say it's a, something that
might require, uh, a warranty card.
We'll call it warranty card, because we use Trello.
So there's the card, the card thing.
Um, and I'm like, no, we don't need to set up the card.
It's five minutes.
Someone's in the area.
I noticed that a screw backed out on a panel sign on the outside
of the building, just put a note together so they know what to do.
But we do not need to filter this through three different people.
Our accountant doesn't need to like do a journal entry to
build a warranty to field ops.
It's just, we'll take five minutes, you know?
So it's like that kind of stuff.
How do we, how do we, we find, how do you, how do you map it out too, so that
there's some consistency, you know?
But Pete, what are you, what are your, you know, I, I know that from
listening to podcasts, you, 'cause you also do consulting work for
other sign companies as well, right?
And, and some of this world we're talking about right now, you know,
that that delineation between the process and the follow the process.
But when does it make sense and when doesn't, and you know,
it's something that we've run up against, certainly challenges.
'cause then people are like, this is a process she must follow.
You know,
uh, let me give, let me give you my two, two answers to that, okay?
Okay.
Um, if you were one of my clients and you came to me with, we have some processes.
We have Trello.
God, I hate Trello, but it is what
it is, but best we got, right?
So it's, it's so freaking
easy to use.
It's super easy to use.
It is super easy to use.
And you know what?
I, I, I just, I, it is what it is.
It's not a big deal, but you're
using, it's better than our paper tickets that we had on the wall.
You
know what?
I will agree with that.
It's better than your plastic jackets and, and pen and paper.
So I will agree with that.
If you have a process that identifies what happens when this happens, okay?
Yep.
So, so I, uh, gosh, you, you kind of, you kind of took me by
surprise with this question, so I'm gonna kind of go backwards.
What I would say to you is that in my.
Process by which I would help you create in your shop.
There would be at some point a divide, a front of the house conversation
and a back of the house conversation.
Sure.
And then your process, your process is built.
Like when a lead comes in, you know, this person is handling
it, what is the call to action?
What is the appropriate action for who is taking it?
And that's going to lead into like an EOS question.
You know, like, who's gonna handle that responsibility?
What are the unit of measures for that individual?
What is their, what is their, uh, record of performance going to be?
How many appointments do they need to make?
How many phone calls do they need to make?
How many dials do they need to have?
What have you?
Sure.
But when you're architecting the, the workflow of this, which is how
I would recommend doing it, I would actually, uh, Brian and I do this a lot.
We, we, we, we get like a Figma account and we start mapping out like.
The architecture of a, of a workflow in shapes and colors and arrows and
all sorts of yes, no logic, right?
When this happens, this is what's going to happen When it doesn't,
this is what happens next.
This is the campaign that they get thrown into.
This is this, this is the drip campaign that we do.
This is how we text the customer, like we infuse marketing over operations so that
it works in unison with your operation.
So that's the backstory of, of, of what I would tell you to do in terms
of building out your processes, but a little bit more just quick overview.
But in the instance where a customer calls and says, Hey, I need something done.
Doesn't really matter what it is, that takes five minutes.
That is a, to me, that gets handled in the first step of your process that
doesn't make its way to three people, that makes its way to the first person that
qualifies the customer, that qualifies the want or need of that individual
and communicates it to the right department head to handle the project.
It doesn't need to have its own jacket, it doesn't need to have its own workflow.
It may mean you stopping there on the way home, on the way, uh, to your
home at the end of the day, and I.
With a screw gun and taking care of that one little screw that's loose, right?
It, that, that might be what it is.
And it never needs to make its way into the ecosystem, but it
does need to be communicated.
So the challenge would be, is it getting communicated to the right individual?
That's, that's the winning ticket.
That's the process by which your, the person, when your phone rings
ring, ring, hi, this is Peter.
Yes, yes.
We make that sign.
No, we don't make that sign.
Yes, you are a customer.
I wanna make happy.
No, you're not a customer.
I wanna make happy.
That is the, that person doesn't hand it to the next individual without qualifying.
That lead, that qualifying that, that, that, that opportunity.
Okay.
So to me that's in your process.
I.
Which I don't know much about, but that is where that problem would be handled.
It handled at that very first point.
Oh my God, I got, I got my sign just blew out of the face.
Uh, we, okay, that's something I need to address.
That's, Hey, I've been there.
I've been, that's a little more than a screw.
I've been, that's more than a screw.
That's than a screw.
I've been there.
But that, but I'm using that as an example for a reason.
That would definitely require another card, another jacket,
another team meeting, what have you.
Hi, my sign appears to have a screw loose.
Can you come and fix it?
Is something that does not need to go through the workflow
of your, of your standardized
process.
Yeah.
And that's where I think the, the challenge obviously is the
process that we have in place.
And we do, um, you know, every new inquiry does get qualified.
So we have that, that type of stuff in place.
So it's more along the way, uh, how do we define this in a way that makes
sense so that in the end you have, we have clarity and we're not gonna,
we're not gonna lose money on it.
Like what Those are the two, like you need the information and information.
Can we get it done with the budget that the client has or the, you
know, whatever the scenario may be.
And how do you define that?
You know, the if and when, um, you know, if it, is it something like,
hey, if it, if, if, if it's a, if it's not a net zero, what do they
call that in, like, emissions, right?
The, if it's not a, I don't know if I'm, if this is gonna articulate net
zero carbon, zero, net zero at the end of the, at the end of this particular
scenario, if you go through all the process of creating a warranty card.
It's gotta get, we do, like, we bill it, the warranty to a particular
department so we can track that and understand what's going on.
If it needs to touch that many hands for a five minute thing, how do you to find that
in a way so it's clear for, you know, the people that are making these decisions.
And I think that's the tough part.
All the rigid process that we have in place is there for a reason.
And when the process is followed, for the most part it works.
But
these, I don't actually think it's that, I don't think that
this part is that complicated.
This part is just taking it, it, it really is you.
Right?
If you are the, the, the, the chef of the kitchen, the captain of the ship
really does require you to sit down and create a yes no chart, right?
Yeah.
Uh, we can call it whatever you want.
You call it a playbook.
You call it a manual, you call it, you can, you put it into like a
tra type of setting if you want, but it's really just a document.
This is the type of customer we want.
This is one that we, if we, is it an existing client?
Yes or no?
If it's an existing client, we want it, we want it to be qualified.
Right.
That's a simple answer.
So if it's somebody that bought a sign from you that has an issue with your sign,
it needs to, this is a yes, this is a yes.
Pass through.
Right?
And where do all those challenges go to?
Does it go to a project manager?
Does it go to the directly to the owner?
Does it go up the chain, however you define that, or does it, or does
it go through your normal process?
I think that's just a simple yes no chart.
You don't need something complex.
You don't need, you don't need a 30 page, you know, drawing of what this defined.
These are the, these are the projects that we do.
This is the clients that we, that we sell to.
If it's a, if it's any of these, it's a yes.
If it's 10 lawn signs, probably not.
If it's 10,000 lawn signs.
Oh.
I'll consider it, I'll consider it.
Sure.
But if it's, you know, is it a school?
Is it a, is it for a birthday?
I'm not interested in birthdays.
I'm not interested in baby announcement signs.
I'm interested in signs that I'm going to make a staple with, and that that
can honestly be left for interpretation.
But you do need to then maybe say, we'll do illuminated signs,
dimensional signage post in panels.
You might give, you could spell it out if you want.
Yeah.
But that's that how detailed you wanna be.
That's up
to you.
Yeah.
And we've got, we've, so we've, I've put together this client
classification and sign classification.
We got examples and, and defined, you know, for each
of these types of scenarios.
Um, we know what we, what the signs we want to build, that's for sure.
And so, yeah, it's, it's just, again, it's in that, um, how do
we keep the process efficient?
You can gain some efficiencies here versus that every gate all the time.
And I'm like, you know, I, I, and we run into the suit, we've kind of
shot ourselves in the foot honestly, in some ways with how our production
packets for our projects are thick.
That's for sure.
What's in, everything's broken up, what's in them
generally?
Generally, what's in them?
Yeah, so we've got what we call tasking, which is the beginning is it's kind of
the, the, the roadmap in terms of labor for each, you know, for fab finishing,
CNC graphics, all that kind of stuff.
So it's a breakdown of that along with the materials, um, that the pre-production
department is defined for the project.
And then we get into, uh, we have an overview packet that's just
the pretty picture that the client signed off on survey information,
any sublet parts, components that are being ordered for the project.
And then part of the production packet, um, gets more granular.
Obviously your fab fab details, um, you know, more granular on
the graphics side of things.
Is it vinyl?
Is it hand Leonard?
Is it a digital print?
Layered?
Vinyl.
Um, and then the paint paint sheet.
Each component, what, you know, what Pantone, what maths paint code.
Then we have all the actual paint formulas that get displayed in there.
Assembly and electrical.
So, you know, what's the neon layout, what's the LED layout, how many
transformers, where the service switches power coming in and out.
Um, and then the install instructions page, which is, we try to keep that
specific to what does the install crew need, what information on those pages.
And so that's all fine and dandy, but I used to build signs off of
what the client signed off on.
And, and that's not scalable obviously, but how do we find that balance?
Because there's some creativity that that can happen in that, right?
Here's what in the end, here's your, your, um, dimensions, here's
the colors, here's the side view, here's side A, here's side B.
Um, you need critical information in there.
Like, is there existing steel pipe?
Where is that location existing electrical.
But beyond that, and then within the constraints of this budget
and this list of materials that we have in inventory, do your thing.
You know, because that's, I think where we let the individual one have
a little more creativity in their day.
Um, but two, I think gives them a better understanding of the project
or the product as a whole versus being almost like part builders.
It's like build part A, build part B, put part A and part B together, you know?
So sometimes then it's like, if not all of every single piece of information
is not there, it's like, what do we do?
So, you know, finding some of the balance in that too.
You know, I, I think is something that we're interested in.
I I, you know, we're a manufacturer on paper and we, technically, I
would meet all definitions of it.
We're actually a registered manufacturer in Wisconsin, but we're also
craftspeople, you know, in, in the end.
And I don't wanna lose that aspect of, of what we do.
And how do you not lose that aspect of, of that, of the culture you want, but,
you know, looking at your TPS reports and your, you know, all your, that,
um, where's the balance in all that?
And can it be.
You know, can you have your cake and eat it too?
And I think that's what we're, we're trying to find out as a company is
can we have that, that atmosphere?
Can we have that, you know, motivation to build the product that we wanna
build and also, you know, have the numbers that we're looking to have.
Um, so that's, and I think, but there's also an art to, to that business side.
And that's certainly something that I've been more motivated to learn and,
and understanding and seeing, getting, um, fulfillment out of like, you know,
there are days when everything is, it's like, holy shit, this really, this
really works, you know, the machine.
Um, and you see everybody's happy and their smiles on everybody's faces.
And so it's, it's there, but how do you keep that art craft, you know,
and that business in the bottom line?
How do we keep those things, um, together working in alignment?
I think that's, that's just where we're at in this current
juncture.
I don't think there's like a, there's not an easy answer for that.
Right?
I, I think it's something that, that every shop struggles with at
some point of like, where, where's the balance between the two?
Right?
Uh, like listening to you talk about it and, and like hearing Peter's answer,
like, to me it sounds, uh, a lot of like, you know, I, I'll give you like
a totally different analogy, right?
Um, if you are, like, think of all the, the trucks that you lettered, right?
You, you had some constraints around that.
Sure.
Of like, Hey, it's a truck.
We, we gotta put something on the truck.
It has to look nice.
We're limited and what we can do, uh, you know, and, and those constraints.
Like really get the, the creativity flowing as well of like, yo,
here's the medium mm-Hmm.
Like, how can we embrace that and, and kind of still be able to deliver
the type of work and like the feeling that we, we want to get out of it.
Yeah.
Right.
So you can apply that same kind of constraint to a process or the
business side of it or, or whatever it is, so that like, hey, here, here's
the things that are non-negotiable.
If, if we take like the production side of it, right?
These things are non-negotiable, have to be done inside production.
Um, and then it's just communication, right?
If, if you're fabricating the sun and something, you know, you've got a better
way to, to do the interior struts or something than what we've got specked.
Mm-Hmm.
And like, you, you've got a better idea as long as it fits
within those constraints like.
Good thing.
Go for it.
Yeah.
Or, or if you take on the intake side of it, right.
If, if it's gonna cost us, let's say there's an issue with the sign, right?
Uh, and, and like Peter mentioned, like having it not go through the full
process, but part of the process is identifying where it, where it should go.
Like what's the severity of this or, you know, I, I've even talked to,
to folks that are like, Hey, if it's gonna cost us less than 50 bucks to
fix this, or a hundred bucks to fix this for an existing client, sure.
Like, just send, send it to, you've got full authority.
Do what you need to do to handle it or get it to the person who can handle it.
Right.
Um, and get it done.
Yeah.
You know, so you just kinda have to build some of those
constraints into the process.
Yeah.
Will that answer the, the, the full thing about balance?
You know, probably not, but will it get you a little further than where you're at
now?
Maybe?
Yeah.
I think that that's what we're looking for is, is like I said, just in a.
Wrap it all up in a nutshell, we have really have some great process and
procedure in place that does set us up for success and, and what it's
completely adhered to from front to back.
For the most part, things work great and, you know, but how do we have a
little more fun and, and loosen up a little bit, you know, and, and retain
that clarity of, of information that is so necessary when you're building
custom things from raw materials from scratch, you know, in the telephone game.
That can happen.
But yeah, that's also, there's, you know, there, there's an aspect of fun that
we've had just even, you know, coming up with the things that normally you
would look at as boring and corporate, which is process and procedure, you know?
So there has been a, a, a great amount of.
Fulfill that joy that's come from that, especially when you see it working.
'cause it doesn't always happen right away.
It's gonna take a while, see the fruit of that labor.
But yeah,
that's, uh,
that's where we're at.
I think we're, we're in a really good position.
Um, you know, if we approach it from a, a, we're a startup again, you know, and we're
only two, three years into it, you know, this whole team, especially being kind of
built, bootstrapped together, everybody's really hitting their stride and, and
it's exciting to see and especially considering the type of work that we're so
fortunate to get to work on it, you know?
So.
Yeah.
I mean, you guys are an amazing spot, man, and I love that you're pro approaching
it as like, Hey, we're treating this as a startup, maybe in the editing piece.
Like, we have somebody, like our editor put the, uh, what was the,
the shop stages model, right?
Like I, about a year ago or so, damn.
Like we put together this model of like.
You're starting out, you're, you're systemizing, you know, like at the
end of it is like the ideal shock.
Yeah.
Like that, that's, that's different for everybody, right?
Based on your own, like, here's how we want to operate.
But like, the theory is, as you grow, you know, you may be in the middle stage of
like, Hey, we've got our processes down.
You suddenly, you add four people to the business and a hundred thou, or,
you know, $500,000 in sales, you get bounced back to like this, this growth
stage of like, Hey, we've got shit to figure out again, because, 'cause now,
hey, like what worked well at five people does not work well at 10 or 28 people.
Yeah.
So I, I love that you guys are approaching it from that.
Aspect.
Yeah.
Do what we can.
Um, if this has been a great conversation, I, I, I would love to do this all day.
Uh, I've got the kids at home and my wife will probably beat
me if I carry on too much longer.
But, but if we, uh, transition to like the future, uh, you know, you've
talked about traction, but, uh, beyond that, like, you know, the, the things
that you've already discussed, like what's the, the future for you guys?
What's the future for you and your wife?
You know, personally?
Yeah.
I, what does that look like?
I think, uh, in terms of the company is really continuing to effort
towards working on the types of projects that we wanna work on, that
that's the most important thing.
Well, and, and on top of, just, like I said, let's, let's
have fun while we're doing it.
And I, I do have a goal of 50%, so 43 now, um, 50% of my time involved
in Sign Art Studio by the time I, I'm 50, so that's a goal I have.
Now what is 50% of my time may not be 50% of other people's time.
You know how it goes if you're, you know, you're a business owner.
Um, but I'd like to see myself in that 20 to 30 hours a week input
by the time I'm 50 years old.
And what that means is, um, you know, making sure that, um, the structure's
in place, uh, for that to happen and that there's alignment across the board.
So, like I said, we're, we're still clarifying what, you know,
our five, well, three and five and 10 year goals are as a company.
But, um, it is certainly not growth for growth's sake in terms of revenue.
Um, again, I think it's a, a poor focus on working with the, the
clients we wanna work with and the type of projects we wanna work with.
I think it is, you know, so much effort or, or the customer's always.
Right, right.
Uh, or people talk about.
The effect of a bad employee can have on a company.
There's very little talk, it seems like, about the effect of,
of a crappy client on a company.
And so I think really making sure that, that, uh, we've been a part
of it and it is, it, it runs deep.
It really does.
So find, 'cause when you find a client that you're aligned with,
man, it is just such a different world how these projects go.
So I think it's a, it's again, more, um, continuing to work with the, the
clients that we're aligned with, um, and trying to find more that we're
aligned with and, uh, doing the type of projects that, that we're aligned with
and not taking the, the work that we're not, you know, those are the things
that I am clear on.
Yeah.
Lemme stop you there.
I, Ellie, I, you know, we always ask for other advice, but hey,
this is very pertinent, like.
You've got a platform here, and obviously like, I wanna talk about
your own podcast in just a moment.
But, um, for the shop owners out there, like what advice would you give them on
working with the right type of clients or finding the right type of clients?
Because, you know, it seems like you guys really hit your stride with the,
the type of work and, and, and granted it is not been easy to get here.
Yeah.
I I don't want to like, do like the DIY like, hey, here's Dan's business and 30
minutes later, oh, it's freaking amazing.
Right, right.
But like, what, what advice would you, I feel like that's something that everybody
struggles with of like, Hey, this is the type of work that we wanna do, right?
This is the work that we're currently doing.
Mm-Hmm.
These are the type of clients we wanna work with.
These are the clients that we currently work with.
Yeah.
Like, is there any like nuggets or, or like wisdom you could share with
the, the shop owners out there of like, how you got from point A to
point B or, or, you know, what that.
Yeah, like anything you can expect out of that?
I, I, well,
one, we're, we're not, uh, we're, we're not where we want to be yet.
And so I think obviously if you'd ask any shop owner out there, no matter
what the business is, obviously they're gonna want to do the type of work they
want to do and work with great clients.
I, I don't think, we're not, we obviously didn't discover that.
Um, but I, for us, where it started, um, and so we can start to understand it
better, is, is that we are classifying, we have a set of standards in place
for, you know, what is an a plus client, uh, what's an, a client,
what's a B client, what's a C client?
We've done the same with the type of projects they are as well.
And I think that has has started.
And then we also have a couple other layers in terms of, uh.
Project complexity as well, um, which we rate one through three.
Our account executives are in charge of classifying these projects after,
you know, um, so my wife does the qualifications of, of any new inquiry.
If it's, if it's a, a new, potential new client.
So once they're qualified and, and they move on to an account executive,
the account executive meets with them and then, you know, follows
the guidelines we have in place and classifies the client the project.
So I think that's one thing that's been helpful, um, now for us to
really, we've just started doing that about a year ago, so we still
now are learning and understanding and collecting the data on that.
But that's one thing.
I think the only thing for us so far that we could, that we put
into place, it's a tangible process around starting to understand that.
Um, but historically it's the, you know, if we didn't want to move it through our
shop for wholesaler, you know, that's one easy way, you know, in terms of working
out projects that you wanna work on.
Now, the client side, that is so much easier said than done because
at the end of the day, uh, we need to put food on the table.
And so you can say, I only wanna work.
Yeah.
You still gotta put numbers on the board.
Yeah.
Um, so
that the, that one's more challenging.
But I think we have certainly gotten better at turning projects
away just in the last couple years.
And the unfortunate thing is sometimes you don't know what that client's gonna be
like until it's, you know, you're in deep.
And so you know that, that, that part's a learning process.
But I just, the experience of working with a customer that you're
aligned with versus one that you're not is such a different experience.
It's collaborative, it's.
You know, they're so much more engaged.
They, you know, they like nice things like we do.
Um, you know, so there's, that's such a different experience.
You know, what is on like the a plus list, like, like for the criteria,
so you got like the specific, like, Hey, here's our a plus client.
Like, what are the things because hey, like I have this conversation with, with
new side shop owners all the time of like, Hey, who are your top five clients?
And they're like, who, who do we do the most in sales with?
I'm like, no, no, no, no.
Like, not, not who gives you the most money right now?
Like, who are the, who are your best clients?
Like, who you, it, it's a massive, right?
Yeah.
So our A plus clients one, are they, they were histor, they were an a.
If we get a new inquiry, we do a reach out, we're doing some
hunting on, on an A client.
They're not, they're not a customer yet, but from what we can tell,
by looking at like what are their, you know, if it's a developer, what
are their developments look like?
What kind of architecture or, you know, what's their vibe?
Um, we'll do a little homework on that.
So that would be an, a customer, a plus customer is that repeat customer.
There's a level of trust.
Um, they seek a long term partnership.
They're very partnership oriented, right?
Because that's important, you know, we're human beings, like
shit happens from time to time.
And does that type of client understand that?
And you understand that of them and so it becomes more of
a, of an actual partnership.
Do they have the same taste in the product as we do?
Quite frankly, do they, do they take our advice?
We're not doing it for, for any other reason than have their
best interest in mind, right?
So when we wanna bring our professional thoughts to the table, um, are they
receptive to it or is it just like, Nope, you know, this is what we need to do.
No, you guys are gonna do what we want you to do.
Yep.
Just, just make it from do
they pay their bills on time?
That's another one that is part of that equation.
Uh, are they good communicators?
'cause it's fine if they like, like nice things.
If you have the same taste, if all these other things.
But if you're trying to get that vector logo from 'em for two weeks and
that's holding up the project, then that can be a potential problem, you
know, for a long term partnership.
So those are the key ones, at least in our a and a plus clients, you know, as
you, as you go down and rate, obviously you guys can put two and two together
where, um, you know, that, that, so yeah.
No, that's helpful to go into, uh, tell, tell us about your podcast, man.
Uh, because I, you know, I, I, I knew you were already a pro at this and a,
like, I really slacked on the notes and, and just all the other like
process that we have in place for our
podcasts.
I person am not a pro.
I have two podcasts episodes under my belt.
Uh, maybe pro from the standpoint of I listen to podcasts all the time.
Um, but no, I, we've been talking about it for.
A very long time.
And, and it was started, we're gonna start it before Covid.
And in fact, my first guess was gonna be the, I forget what his title
was then, but I think director of Building Inspection in Madison to talk
about the sign code and why it's so restrictive and you know, all that stuff.
But anyway, then Covid happened and that got put on the back burner.
Uh, but then we had a, a project for a local broadcast company, so radio,
uh, podcast and that sort of thing.
Um, and they proposed doing a trade and one of 'em was one of, one of what they
were proposing is, um, that we'd do six to seven podcasts out of their studio.
And my wife was kind of shepherding this, this project, and so she brought it.
Brought it to my attention, and I was like, all right, well,
yeah, let's do it because I, maybe it's the kick in the butt.
I need to get this, you know, podcast off the ground.
Um, and so we met with them and they're like, well, maybe you can
talk about the process of a sign sale or, you know, interview this or that.
All this felt forced, and I'm not good in those scenarios at all.
Like, I don't do like networking events real well because I don't,
I'm not, I'm very extroverted with my people, my circle.
But outside of that, I'm like, eh, I can't fake water cooler talk.
And so, honestly, I, I didn't know what we were gonna, I didn't know.
I didn't know what, I'm like, all right, well we signed up for this.
Well, what, what's it gonna be?
And yeah, I, and then it came to me, well, why don't I start with
interviewing, um, letterheads, so like sign painters that I, that I know,
and I thought if I did, if I can get on a rhythm of one a month, I've got.
A couple years worth of podcasts that I could do.
I don't need a real heavy outline.
There's no script that's needed.
It's just talk and shop.
And so it's not for, it's like you guys, it, it, it's not.
Yeah.
There's obviously, you, you guys probably do have some of this that
turns, you know, into revenue out maybe, possibly in some way or another.
But I'm not speaking to the customer, so to speak.
You know, I'm speaking to our industry and if in some way if it gains
some level of traction, it has some exposure and it shines a light on
the traditional aspects of, of this trade that we're in, then it's a win.
So really that's the ultimate goal is I think all the, you know,
individuals and, and mentors and peers I've met over the years who
have taught me, you know what I know.
Um, it was a, it's in some way to honor them and, and give.
So that's, that's kind of where it'll start.
I'm sure it'll evolve.
You know, like my best friend Tom Zucker Neon Lab, he does, he does all our neon.
So we'll have him on for episode.
But yeah, just it, some of the more traditional areas is where
it's focused now, and then I'm sure it'll expand beyond that.
You know, it'd be cool to get, like, it'd be cool to like interview the
owner of Jones Signs, which is a big monster, you know, national company.
Pick their brain a little bit on, on, you know, how, how they
built it and that sort of thing.
But, so yeah, that's where it's at now.
And then I think bringing some
where can, where can people listen to, uh, so everywhere
it's called Make War with Dan Yoder.
So anywhere, yeah, podcasts are listened to Spotify.
Okay.
You name it.
That's all.
We will make sure we put the link in the show notes as well.
Yeah, and then also I, I listened to the first episode with Mike and I thought
it was, yeah, that was my boss Mike.
Uh, I, I love, I I I, I, I love just having a, like, just a live
conversation of, of just like two folks who know the industry really well.
And that's, to me, that's, that's the joy of what we do here is just,
yes, we try to have an outline and we try to provide value.
And if you're listening, I hope this conversation has been valuable.
If it wasn't, I had fun.
Pete had fun.
Hopefully Dan had fun as well.
But yeah, hopefully there's some value in it.
But for me it's, I, I, this part of it is, like you mentioned, cathartic when you are
actually building something for me, this is kind of cathartic as well, where it's
just like, Hey, you just get to turn off.
Everything else and, and just, you know, talk shop with somebody
who, who knows and just gets it.
Yep.
Or a YouTube channel.
Make signs, not war tv.
We post the podcast there and it's fun to watch.
'cause we do try to pull up examples of the work too.
Um, which is, which is, you know, fun to see.
But yeah, that's it.
Wherever podcast can be listened to and then our YouTube channel
made sign's, not more tv,
so.
Yeah.
Right on.
Uh, Dan, this has been awesome, man.
I really enjoyed it.
Absolutely.
I hope you'll come back on sometimes soon.
Yeah, man, I'm, I'm in, you know, that I, I feel like there's,
there's more conversations to have.
Yeah,
for sure.
Well, I appreciate you guys having me on, um, and happy
holidays, uh, to you and yours.
Yeah.
Merry Christmas from my wife and I, I'm not
sure if you could see me on Yeah, I, I noticed that, man, I'm like,
wonder, I'm wondering exactly what's going on in that households.
Yeah, she, she got me a.
Mine's called me four.
Mine's called me four times in the last five minutes because we're
supposed to get down the road.
Head to Illinois, so, yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
Call, get after it.
Stay out.
The dog house all.
Yeah.
Cole.
We'll see you, Dan.
All.
So that's the episode with Dan.
Pete, stop typing on the keyboard and give us your rapid fire takeaways.
Um,
okay.
So first and foremost, he's got a lot of raw talent.
I, I, I see, hi.
I, looking at his site and looking and listening to him here today.
I think he's, um, for such a, in such a short period of time, I think
he's got something here put together that it, it needs to be recognized,
it needs to be celebrated, but he needs to continue to push forward.
And I think sometimes, and you heard some of it here today, that you know.
He has elements of it and he has pieces of it and pieces of it being
like a process, but there, it's not 100% tiled in, but it is okay.
It is okay.
You need to continue to dial that in and yearn to be better.
Like we, like we discussed.
And I think he, you know, whether that's technology, whether that's, uh, cre,
spending time, creating playbooks, creating those necessary pieces so that
things don't fall through the cracks.
I think a shop that does $5 million a year, that employees, that many people
can still have a lot to learn from and they can still implement a lot
to make them a $10 million business.
Um, or
a, a super profitable business,
or super profitable business.
I loved his, I I loved that last thing that he said, which was, you know,
goal by, I think he, by the time he's 50 to spend, you know, less time in
the business and I thought, well.
That is one hell of a goal.
I, but my thought was I have absolutely no idea how you measure that.
Uh, just calculate your time, I guess.
But to me, I thought that was a very interesting goal, not one
that we've heard here before.
Uh, but also made me think, you know, like that what does
value look like to other people?
It's not just profit, it's not just quality of sign, it's also their time.
And I think, uh, Dan is, Dan is definitely somebody that is valuing
his time far better than, than the average sign shop owner does.
So there you have it.
That's my takeaway.
Yeah,
I love that, man.
It goes back to that ideal shop stage model that we sort have like.
It doesn't always mean that $10 million or a hundred million dollars
company is the, the goal, right?
It's like what works well for you and, you know, if you're a, a small
three man operation and like your aspirations are not much bigger than
that, like you just want to live a happy lifestyle, be comfortable,
provide for your family, it's okay.
Yeah.
Don't, uh, don't grow for growth's sake.
I heard Dan say that, right?
Like, don't target growth just to put numbers on the board Right.
And make it mean something.
So, lots of takeaways for me in this one.
Um, I, I wish we could have dived into or dove into the, uh, the
scheduling tool, but we'll have to bring him back on for that one man.
You would, uh, yeah.
I think I would've
geeked out a little bit on that.
Yeah.
You know, you certainly would've.
So, Bryant, um, have a Merry Christmas, my man.
Thank you again for.
For, for leading the charge here on a wonderful year, uh, of guests.
And we're gonna close out this year with, with an amazing record
of, of downloads on our podcast.
This has been a wonderful year for, for the Better Sign Shop and, and
this particular podcast, uh, just wanted to say thank you and I'll see
you on the other side of the year.
Oh, you're gonna make me blush, man.
No, thank you, dude.
Uh, thank, thank Mike.
He couldn't make it today.
Um, Uhhuh, you know, hey, like, it is been amazing.
Like from where we started with this freaking thing, dude, like,
uh, hey guys, let's just catch up.
Like we, we haven't talked to each other in a while.
Let's just catch up and talk shop to, to now where we get to interview guests
like Dan and other industry legends like Dan Antonelli and Dan Soki.
I don't know if it is just like a Dan thing in the industry.
Uh, you know, I don't know.
Whatever it is.
Lots of dance, but lots dance.
Lots of dance.
It is been amazing.
Um, you know, I, this will go out after Christmas, so again, we hope
that you've had a Merry Christmas.
Yeah, it's been a good ride so far.
More to go in 2024.
Sweet man.
So that's the episode.
I hope you enjoyed it.
I'd like to give one final shout out to our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing
Grand Format Printer to the trade GCI is not your average print shop.
They pride themselves on providing you a fast stress-free experience when
outsourcing, there are no excuses.
Mindset means no matter the job, they'll have it done every time.
No other vendor will go to the links that GCI does to ensure
you are a satisfied customer.
To hear more about their approach to business, hop back into the archives
to episode nine where the guys and I interview owner TJ Beat Act
about top tier customer experience.
If you're looking for a high quality trade printer for banners, mesh,
core blasts and more, TJ and his crew were small, GCI does them all.
Check them out@printgci.com.
If you liked this episode, make sure you hit subscribe to get all
the latest episodes and check out our website, better sign shop.com.
Get free resources and helpful tools on growing your shop.
Thanks for listening.