This episode is about getting to the heart of what capitalism and socialism mean and how no true example of either actually exists.
In this episode of Get Me to the Gray, Paula Lehman-Ewing sits down with economist Doug Cardell for a candid, unscripted conversation that cuts through ideology and into reality. Together, they explore how capitalism and socialism are often treated as fixed, opposing systems—despite the fact that no true version of either exists in practice. What emerges is a conversation about power, implementation, and the gap between economic theory and lived experience.
Rather than debating labels, this episode examines how systems actually function, who benefits from the way they’re structured, and why so many political arguments get stuck before they ever reach substance. It’s a conversation about tension, assumptions, and what happens when ideas meet the real world.
Doug's book
Why Socialism Struggles is now available for purchase, and you can learn more about him at
DougCardell.com.
What is Get Me to the Gray?
Get Me to the Gray, presented by COJA Services Inc., is a podcast about the conversations we’re told we shouldn’t have. Hosted by journalist and author Paula Lehman-Ewing, the show brings people with fundamentally different ways of seeing the world into honest dialogue—where we name what divides us and keep talking anyway.COJA Services Inc. works with mission-driven organizations and brands that are clear on their values but struggle to translate that clarity into public-facing language. We help teams align internal narratives, reduce confusion before it becomes mistrust, and translate complexity into public understanding without relying on scripts, rhetoric, or generic AI language that strips voice and judgment.