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CW: Miscarriage, Pregnancy Loss, Stillbirth, Alcoholism
In this heartfelt episode, you'll hear singer-songwriter Christina Perri open up in a profound way. Christina talks to us about her journey from being a sensitive, deeply feeling child to an unexpected superstar. She shares how her deep emotions and sensory processing difficulties made her feel misunderstood and how she found solace in songwriting from a young age.
Christina takes us behind the scenes of her sudden rise to fame with the hit song "Jar of Hearts" and how she navigated the challenges that came with fame at an early age. She also discusses the incredible impact of her song "A Thousand Years," and Jess shares a surprising story about this song with Christina.
In this vulnerable and honest conversation, Christina shares her experience with pregnancy loss, including the stillbirth of her daughter Rosie. She discusses her advocacy work to expand prenatal testing to prevent pregnancy loss and the importance of talking openly about grief and keeping Rosie's memory alive.
Christina also shares how motherhood has shaped her current focus on healing, authenticity, and vulnerability in her music and public persona. She emphasizes the power of connection and shared experiences, especially among mothers, in overcoming difficult times.
Throughout the episode, we explore themes of sensitivity, creativity, grief, advocacy, and the importance of being vulnerable and true to yourself. This moving conversation offers a rare glimpse into the heart and mind of a talented artist and the experiences that have shaped her life and music.
Hear more from Christina Perri on Instagram! [https://www.instagram.com/christinaperri/]
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/] using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
Learn more about the Solving Bedtime Battles course here [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/solving-bedtime-battles/].
Credits:
Editing by The Pod Cabin [https://thepodcabin.com/]
Artwork by Wallflower Studio [https://www.wallflowerstudio.co/]
Production by Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/]
Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We are so glad that you are here.
As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.
We're gonna get into the big stuff right away.
Do you think
that sensory processing problems in parents makes it more challenging to be a parent?
That's a really good question.
I know.
You just sitting here thinking of questions that you want to ask your wife?
Yeah.
Okay.
I love it.
Yes, I definitely think it's more challenging to be a parent when you have sensory processing difficulties.
Especially I think about parents who are really
sensitive to sounds.
I mean, you know, when we have the three girls in the house, like this morning even.
Before I came here, it was just so loud in there.
And I know for me I have pretty high threshold to be able to handle that
but someone who is really sensitive to noise, that would be very overwhelming.
Yep.
And I think we can often dismiss people with sensory processing difficulties and say, oh just get over it.
You know, it's kids.
Kids are loud
But what we don't realize is that it's actually physically painful for them to feel that noise or to hear that noise.
And I feel like you can relate to some of that.
Yeah.
I don't know about noises in general.
I feel like
That's not really an issue for me.
Now, I guess this is a perfect segue into what are some things that someone who is highly sensitive or who has some sensory processing difficulties or ADHD or whatever it is
what can they do that will help make their life a little bit easier as a parent?
As a parent.
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
There's so many things that we can do.
One, just understanding this about yourself.
So for example, if you're someone who's really triggered by loud noises, knowing that about yourself is huge.
And then what you're gonna do is you might not have toys with batteries in your house
So I know for me loud noises are something that I am sensitive to, maybe not as sensitive as other people, but that definitely bothers me.
So you know that we don't have really any battery operated toys in the house.
I think we have one.
We have one.
And when we did have more battery operated toys, I would even put like a piece of tape over top of them.
And it's okay to say a way that I take care of myself as a parent is I actually don't allow those types of
toys in the house, it's too loud, it's too overstimulating.
A parent who's sensitive to loud noises might also find it helpful to try and take a full sensory break.
I used to advise to my clients just once an hour at least, go to the bathroom, turn off all the lights, have no sounds going on, and just sit there.
for a couple minutes just to allow your body to have that break.
But how realistic is that actually though?
Like as a parent, we have three kids.
Yeah.
They're a little bit older now.
We can feel relatively fine with the fact that hey I'm leaving after an hour, I'm going to the bathroom
Spending a minute in there, whatever it is, for sensory break.
But is that even realistic for a parent who has a newborn or a toddler that's destroying their house, ripping all the books off every shelf, trying to climb the shelves?
Yeah, you can't you can't always go to the bathroom alone, unfortunately.
Sometimes what I would suggest to parents is if you can put your child in a safe place if you really need that break.
Because sometimes it is safer for us as a parent to say, I'm gonna put my child in the crib, even though they might be a little bit upset about that, for a couple minutes while I go to the bathroom and just have a quick break so that I can recenter myself and be present and not yelling at my kids when I
Enter back in.
Sometimes that's safer than staying with your kid but losing your cool and not being able to handle it.
Um so sometimes it is just
finding a safe spot for your kids and I'm not talking about being in there for 15-20 minutes.
It's a couple minutes just resetting yourself and then coming back out
Or we're trying to do that during a nap time.
I know during nap times we can just be busy and and trying to get everything done, but that could be a good time to take a sensory break too.
Right.
Like we when in our discussion with Christina Perry, you talked about
Uh a bit about like losing yourself when you become a parent the first time and some of the things that you experienced or did beforehand, you're kind of losing that part of you a little bit.
And you talked about writing as an outlet for that.
Her writing songs for music, you writing posts for Nurtured First.
Is there things like that that can help?
For a parent who experiences some of these sensory difficulties, is that something that you would recommend for them or is that a different thing?
Yeah, I think Christina and I were talking about two kind of separate things, but I think they are often mixed together
So we were talking about how she has this really deep internal world.
And so a lot of emotions and feelings and things going on inside of herself and how it was really helpful for her as a way to get those thoughts and feelings out to journal them out
and those might be connected to the sensory issues that she was having.
That's more like an emotional outlet for her, for yourself.
Yeah, but I do think that our kids who have sensory struggles also are often deeply feeling and feel misunderstood.
So for example, if I think about a toddler who, let's say, is very overstimulated by lights and sounds, is very triggered by textures, but nobody understands them and they're just getting punished all of the time for not wanting to wear socks or something like that.
I think then they can start to have this deep internal world and all of these feelings of nobody understands me, nobody gets me.
So I think that there is a connection between this sensory processing struggles
And having this deep sense of like nobody gets me, I'm alone in this.
And I think for Christina, maybe that's where her writing came out because she was a sensitive kid and nobody was understanding her.
And so I think they're very connected.
Well, I think this is a good time to get into the episode.
with Christina because I think the conversation with her was very interesting.
Let's get into it.
The first thing I wanted to ask you about is I saw your puzzle last night.
How long did that take you to finish?
Oh my
God, I'm getting so good at them and I do them so fast now that that's why I was like sort of joking, like, is there some competition I can sign up for?
Because
Everyone makes fun of me, like my husband and and my friends when they come over, I'm like it's how I wind down at the end of the day, like even if I only have ten minutes
to do the puzzle, like if it took me forever to get Carmela to sleep or something, like I'll still give myself that time.
Because I mean truthfully, I think I might have a little undiagnosed sensory stuff
Because I'm from the generation of like one only boys had ADHD and two it was just like nobody really noticed
But like, you know, I need to calm my central nervous system, I feel like, all the time.
So like I have a weighted blanket, I like doing Legos, I like doing puzzles.
To me, those are little signs.
And so like even if it's only five minutes, it'll still calm me down at the end of the day
So I actually paced myself because I could finish a puzzle in one sitting.
So like that took me maybe three days, but I purposefully stopped so that I can enjoy it longer.
So it makes sense.
Yeah, totally.
So it's actually something you enjoy, not just something you're powering through and doing at night.
Yes.
I just love it.
Honestly.
I went through a period maybe like
Three months where I didn't do any and I really missed it.
And I was like, I'm bringing it back.
And now so I always have one like on on our kitchen counter and I'm just like
when I need to focus or when I need to chill out.
Like I just start putting this puzzle together.
Yeah, I loved seeing the puzzle and I I'm really interested in what you're saying about the ADHD and the sensory processing.
Honestly, my husband, Scott, who's sitting right here
Him and I were literally talking about that last night.
We were saying how so many of us maybe we have ADHD or we had it as kids but wasn't diagnosed.
And now that we're parents
those things are so much more difficult to cope with because parenting is so busy and the kids are so loud and there's so many things going on.
Do you think that you had ADHD and had these tendencies even as a kid and maybe it wasn't recognized then
Hundred percent.
I can even remember thinking about how clothes felt on me when I was little and I thought that everybody felt that way.
Almost like one of my earliest memories is like not liking the way something I had on felt.
And well, this is like a great segue into like your whole thing.
I feel like we are so aware now of our children and want so much to support them and how they came.
We're not like trying to make them all the same.
We're not trying to like make them look good or be good or like this model of what kids should be, which I
I feel like I grew up in the 90s and so that's just like what it was.
If like I wasn't acting like a good kid, my mom would tell me that.
You know, like it's so so different.
I mean I I absolutely love my parents.
My dad's actually staying with me right now.
He flew in last night.
He's 80.
I'm like the youngest of six.
So he's like on the older side.
And I adore my parents because now I kind of parent them too
And like I just did a lot of work to love them just as they are.
And like having children was such a healing thing for me to sort of just see how hard it is, but also to see exactly what I wanted to do different.
And
I really do notice all my things and then I notice them in Carmela and Pixie.
And then I always try to say what I wish I heard.
Which is so funny because that's like, you know, one of our talking points today, but it's like that's me every day.
Like every single day, I have a miniature me.
Carmella is five.
going on I say fifteen and she goes thirty-five.
I'm like, sure.
But whatever you want.
She's so emotionally present and so good at communicating her feelings and emotions, but she's
Such an empath and such a sensitive spicy one.
There's a mom on on Instagram I follow that talks about her spicy teenagers and I feel like that's
Potentially gonna be me.
Yeah.
So Carmela, gosh, I have to be so intentional with the way I say things to her and
I try very much to say exactly what I wish I heard when I was little because she says things that I said.
Like I clearly remember saying to my mom,
Like, mom, do you think about thinking and then think about the thought that you're thinking?
Like, I went on this like whole thing, am I
Yeah.
My mom was like, no.
And like shut it down.
So Carmela like almost the exact same thing to me, like two months ago.
She's like, Mom, do you think about like
you know, why we're here, like and like our brains, like we just like think things and like I'm thinking, but you can't hear what I'm thinking, but it's my you know she went on this whole thing and I was like, yes I do.
I was like absolutely
Tell me more.
You know, like and it's so wild.
It's so wild to like wonder who she's gonna be if she's like you I I feel like we're raising the kids now that are that are getting hopefully emotionally what they need or
mentally and eating what they need.
Like all these things to thrive, right?
And like so I don't even know who I'm gonna make.
Like is it gonna be a
a healthy me, you know, like who I I don't know, could've been, would have been.
I mean, you know, I try not to like wish anything of the past, but it will be fascinating for me to see Carmel continue to grow when I like
really support her.
Yeah, and I I can see that in everything that you post and I can see how much you love your girls and and that's something I love about following your page is that
I I feel like we're very similar in that way where we're both like we're just like these fierce mama bears who do everything for our kids and we wanna support them and I love that.
And
I was looking through, I think it was maybe your TikTok or Instagram something, and you had this video of Carmelo watching you perform.
And oh I literally just cried.
Like I think
My like I'm such a softie to anything like that, but just seeing the way she's like lighting up and watching you perform and like how incredible is that yeah.
Well, it was so special also because
I mean I've been in my family building years for the past six years.
Carmel will be six in January and I like stepped back from performing so that I could
build my family and I've done just random things here and there, but with the pandemic it like was even harder to just like casually perform.
So she like really didn't
see me put on a show until last summer, like a full show.
And so at that point she already knows all the words to my songs.
She's like
the cutest little cheerleader for me.
She'll actually like play a game where she'll say, Okay, tell me someone to imitate 'cause she loves like acting.
I don't I don't know if I'm making a little actor, a singer, a doctor.
I've no idea what she's gonna be, but maybe all of it.
She said
She wants to be a Dr.
Ballerina singer.
I was like, cool.
But she'll go, Tell me to imitate someone.
So, you know, I'll say like my husband or whatever.
And then I say, okay, me.
And she goes, I have died every day.
Like she thinks she's so funny.
Yeah, yeah.
So she's like just becoming aware of like what I do, but definitely was so cute that day.
It was a show in New York City, I'll never forget, because she was sitting up in the balcony and like I kept talking to her during the show.
And after the show when it was over, I was so curious to see what she would be like because, you know, she only knows me as a mom.
She definitely doesn't think I'm cool.
You know what I mean?
She doesn't think like my job is cool.
You know, just like yeah
And so she like comes in my dressing room and immediately has to pee, of course.
She's like, where's the bathroom?
You know?
And I'm just like, what'd you think?
Like I'm like waiting for her, like
review and she's like sitting on the potty, right?
If you picture just like in a mom moment of like sitting right in front of her, like holding her dress up.
And it's like hitting her and she goes, are you real?
Are you really my mom?
And I was like, oh my God.
I just like melted
So she thought it was super cool.
She really did.
I love like every story you you've told.
I wanted to get into, like I know we've been talking a lot about our kids, but one of the things I really want to talk to you about too was
your own childhood.
And I know you mentioned the sensory feelings.
And I know in a lot of the other interviews you've done you've you've kind of touched on your childhood and how uh you're a I I've heard you say like a sad kid or a child who kind of felt misunderstood
And I mean, you said you have six six kids in your family.
Yeah, I wonder if you can touch a little bit more on on that.
And I know you were raised in Pennsylvania, which is
actually pretty close to where we are right now.
I've been to Pennsylvania lots of times.
Yeah, what was it like to be one of six and to be a child who kind of felt misunderstood?
Sure.
Oh my gosh.
I could talk about this all day, so you have to stop me.
I'm ready to listen.
Thank you.
I you know, it's funny, I've actually been in therapy for like
twenty seven years, which to me doesn't I can't even wrap my head around it.
I started going when I was eight.
So like that should give you like an idea of like
Well one, how emo I am, but two, I've been working through this stuff, like really intentionally, like my whole life.
So
Let's see, I was born in Philadelphia and yes, I'm the youngest of six, but my dad had a previous marriage before my mom, so
four of the children are older than mi my brother and I.
So it's like ten years older and more.
And then it's just me and my brother that grew up in the house with my mom.
He married my mom nineteen seventy eight.
They've been married forty five years, I think.
So anyway, I did have siblings, but like they didn't you know, they didn't grow up in our house.
So it did sort of feel like it was just me and my brother, even though I knew my other siblings, we would see them just like but not every single day
We grew up in like a really cultural Italian house and my brother was like and he didn't embrace that part of him and then I think as a small child I was like, oh maybe I'm like I don't
fit in here or something, you know, like so I also don't want to say that that anything happened to make me feel this way.
I also think I arrived on the planet with this personality.
I I'm a big fan of the Enneagram.
So I'm a four and I
feel like the forest four of all time and and that gave me a a lot of comfort as I got older that like I just showed up I arrived like this with feeling like I was had a mi missing piece or w felt misunderstood
And my brother is the exact opposite.
Like he's just like felt like a whole person, always had a passion, always knew what he wanted, always was articulated like all this stuff.
And I was just
Since it was just me and him in the house, I would just compare myself to him, I think, and I, you know, would feel like I just had to work harder to fit in.
I later on figured out that that had so much more to do with, like I said, how I showed up on Earth and also being an alcoholic.
I feel like
I've been sober now 11 years and everybody I go to meetings and everybody shares how they felt so misunderstood, uncomfortable in their skin.
Like all these things are are like common characteristics.
So
kind of giving you the broad story.
But this is also like real clunky 'cause it's this is truth.
Like I don't know what, right?
We believe nature, we believe nurture, we believe
All these things we're trying to like make sense of it all as we grow up.
And like I've spent, I don't know, my whole my whole life trying to figure it out and
that's also a part of my personality that I just want to figure it out or I wanna, you know, find the missing piece.
That when I heard that about, you know, my personality type that like I will go searching for a missing piece that I was never actually missing.
Like it's so tragic.
And so correct.
And like also I'm a songwriter.
Like all these things, like everything makes sense for little me when I get older.
Do you know what I mean?
But for little me to be walking around on the planet
Feeling uncomfortable in clothes or like fabrics or sounds or you know, all those things.
And then also like feeling a little bit funny in my own family because I wasn't as like shiny and loud and I just wasn't my big brother.
I just wanted to be him
And then to also feel misunderstood, to to feel so emo and like I listened to Selena or Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston just sit into my bathroom and like cry over love that I never had.
Like
You know, I'm like eleven and I'm just like heartbroken, but like, you know.
And I also was was obsessed with being in love.
And what I also think is interesting, or maybe just to note
My household was like really loving, I should say.
Like my parents were really loving.
You know, my dad's from Italy, but real sweet.
My mom is an angel, honestly.
Like just so kind.
She's a hairdresser and
very nurturing and giving and they were married, you know, and we uh we just like had this cute little life in the suburbs of Philadelphia.
Like it was not, you know, on the outside looking in.
It really didn't
For how much I struggled, I wanna say.
Didn't there were no real factors that were obvious to anyone.
So that's also
was hard for me because I knew it was in in here.
Like I knew it was within me.
And like that awareness was was like too much, I think, for for a kid to totally grasp.
So I remember my mom said to me recently, she was like, You know, I put you in therapy because I wanted to support you and I didn't know how.
And it was so interesting we had this talk recently, 'cause now that I'm a mom
Like I feel like I was emotionally detached from my parents around eight or nine.
I felt kinda on my own, even though I was not.
I mean, I was
fully taken care of.
But emotionally, and I've always talked about that in therapy.
And my mom's like, Well you know I did that 'cause like I just didn't know what to say.
And I now know as a parent that's a incredibly loving thing to do.
Like I you know, but at the time I was like, why aren't you talking
to me.
Like, why am I talking to this guy named Brian?
You know what I mean?
Like I didn't I didn't get it.
You didn't want it from Brian.
You wanted it from your mom.
But your mom maybe felt like she didn't have the tools or she didn't have the ability.
So she's like, I'm putting you with
Brian.
And now like I don't have any ill feelings towards that because I also know how hard parenting is.
But even so, like, when I first had Carmilla six years ago or you know, or when I was pregnant even, I remember thinking about my mom and like
my parents and I actually can't believe how little they knew back then for how much we know now, right?
It it feels like it was not slow.
Like it wasn't like an even growth.
It feels like they didn't have any of these tools and then now we have all these tools.
You know?
So like my mom whose mom didn't even hug her one time, like that was like the generation of people who like don't talk about anything.
You know, they're like the boomers or whatever.
Yeah, my mom didn't have one tool.
You know, my gr my mom uh my grandmother's still alive.
She's ninety-two and my mom takes care of her.
You know, she's like never once
probably said to my mom, Well, how does that make you feel?
I mean still you know mom sixty eight.
Yeah.
Right.
So I'm I'm obviously going into like the the deeper stuff with you because, you know, it's this is sort of like
you know, your specialty.
Yeah, I really picture you as you're describing yourself as a child, as this child who, yeah, you have this loving home, these loving parents who don't
just maybe don't understand how to help someone who is highly sensitive or who is deeply feeling like like you're describing yourself.
And so your brother, I feel like, had this like
big external world.
I have a brother like that too, and I love him so really.
But I have a brother that's very similar to him who's like he was always like super popular.
Everybody loved him.
He's hilarious.
He's so fun.
And he still is like that and I still love hanging out with him like he's the best.
And I feel like you're describing yourself and you have like this deep emotional internal world and you're like
Do you think about thinking?
Does anyone else think about thinking and think about these deep things?
And I can relate to that because I was the kid journaling, like just journaling, journaling, journaling.
Oh my God.
Me too.
And I thought I well, I thought I liked writing songs, but I'm a terrible singer, so that never worked out for me.
So now now I just write Instagram posts that make people uh cry and that's why channel that energy.
But I can picture that like in myself too, is this like you're just
a deep processor, just processing things deep.
But then if your parents, thankfully for for me, my dad is similar and I feel like he was able to kind of have those conversations.
But
Like you said, if your parents didn't have the tools to be like, well, what's it like to think about thinking and and how does that work for you?
Their parents didn't even ask them, like, how are you feeling?
Like just a basic question.
It makes sense that then you're just going more and more internal.
Yeah.
So you're Hey friends.
So at pickup last week, our daughter asked Scott a truly
kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from
our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
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I'm just picturing you, you're eight, you're having like these deep thoughts, maybe you're journaling them out.
When did you start thinking to yourself, Oh, maybe I could turn this into a song and start singing it and maybe someone would want to listen?
Oh my gosh.
Well all those things happened at different points.
So
I wanna say I probably started journaling around eight because the my therapist probably told me to do that.
And I filled
Endless books.
I remember when my parents were moving, like they were like, what do we do with these like 45 journals?
You know, and I was like, save them.
You know, um, don't throw them out.
But anyway, I truthfully didn't well, I didn't write a song till I was fifteen.
So I wanna say like there's like some
pretty standout years for me and like one was eight for sure and then one was fifteen and maybe not the ones in between so much that stand out as far as just like
day-to-day stuff, but at fifteen I remember falling in love with my first real, real boyfriend.
And I mean he was my boyfriend for like six years.
I mean I wrote Jar of Hearts about him, you know, so he's like the he's the guy
Yeah, yeah.
I actually call him Jar.
Like me and my band, every we all just call him Jar.
But uh I have a I have a story.
I have a quick story about Jar of Hearts.
Uh I want to hear your story too.
But I was telling so Shannon uh is a psychotherapist who works for Nurtured First.
And so I was telling her, I'm like, I'm interviewing Christina Perry, and she's like
Oh my goodness, you have to show her.
So when she was in grade nine, Jar of Hearts came out.
So she had this boy that she loved but didn't notice her and and didn't know who she was.
Apparently
all the girls.
She was just telling me this literally an hour ago.
She's like, all the girls in my class loved this guy.
Like we all wanted to date him, but he he didn't know that we all loved him and and anything.
Anyway, so they had to do an art project and they were supposed to like
write a meaningful quote.
Anyway, sh she brought it.
She still has it.
So you can see it here.
And in calligraphy, she wrote out all the lyrics to your song.
And
Oh my god, she's my spirit animal.
That was me in the ninth grade.
Yeah, though that's what I'm thinking as you're saying it.
And she says, she's like, I saved nothing from high school.
Of course she has no idea that eventually I'm gonna have this conversation with you
I saved nothing from high school but this poster because I was so proud of it.
And uh anyway.
Well I love that.
I love that.
So
Well that was like around fifteen, right?
I was fourteen maybe, uh freshman year and fifteen, sophomore year.
Yeah.
So exactly.
That's how that was me too.
And so I think I started writing maybe poetry.
Like I was a girl in high school.
I was
Listening to the Beatles.
I w had braids in my hair.
I went to Catholic school and I would wear like a tie-dye t-shirt under my school uniform.
So like just the collar was, you know, like tie-dye.
I would wear Birkin socks, even though they weren't like the approved
shoo and then I would have uh like a courtroy school bat like I was I was very much a little hippie.
That's sort of like that was my vibe.
Yeah and it was the Beatles and you know I do often say
At 13, I remember I I discovered the Beatles.
My aunt, who was super cool, everyone has a cool aunt, and um she gave me a Beatles album.
And I remember going
Well first of all I fell in love with it.
It was Revolver and it was a C D and I remember going to the local music store called Pat's Music, like in my town.
And I was like, do you have any more of these Beatles?
And he was like, oh my God.
And like he he actually, it's a funny story, he took
the revolver from me and he said, You can't start with this.
I said, Well, I already did.
And he was like, Okay, well forget that.
And he took it and he gave me with the Beatles and he said, You're gonna start here and every week come back, I'll give you the next Beatles album
And I was like, okay.
And so at thirteen, I like I do credit a lot of this to my songwriting because it was almost like studying.
So like I was studying the Beatles without knowing.
And I was studying the greatest love songwriters of all time, in my opinion, but in a lot of people's opinions.
So I think from 13 to 15 I was just studying
music I'd had yet to write my first song.
But I would sit like under a tree at school and write poetry at recess
by myself.
You know, I was like so drunk.
I used to cheer on.
Yeah.
I was so dramatic.
I still am, but I was like back then even worse.
And I would like smoke cigarettes in the bathroom and and not get caught anyway.
It's so bad.
But anyway, so I fell in love for the first time and then got heartbroken for the first time.
So that was like such a paramount moment in my life, like in the timeline of my life, like that was a catalyst for so many things.
because it really formed who I am, I feel like, because I was faced with these feelings that were, you know, absolutely too much.
Like absolute like I had I had been super emotional and
felt like everything was too much my whole life already.
And then when I when I fell in love and then he cheated on me and I was heartbroken for the first time.
I didn't know what to do.
And I had my first experience where my feelings were so big like a volcano, all I could do was write them down and that felt better.
And then I sang them and that felt better.
Do you know what I mean?
It was like my first time having that release
and that healing and then wanting that again and again and again.
So it like really did change my life.
And I'm also really grateful for it.
So I joke around about
you know, being grateful for this guy, but like it really did set me on the path of of like my destiny in so many ways.
And I'm grateful for it.
So I wrote
Because I was just so overwhelmed and I started to write and sing and and I taught myself how to play guitar so that I could write this song and all these songs.
I mean I started writing songs every day instead of poems
So I learned like three chords on the guitar so that I could do that.
And then my brother was assigned musician at this point.
He was 17.
He got a record deal.
He was touring the world in the rock and roll band.
And everyone thought like he taught me how to play guitar because he's like the best guitar player I know.
And the truth is he didn't.
I like learned on a video of watching like all these performers
And when he came home, I remember he would stop home, you know, every so often and I'd say, Oh look what I can do And then he'd be like, Cool, here's a n a new chord and he'd show me like a B minor and then I'd like blow my mind and I'd write a song with the B minor like
It was so innocent and like pure.
You know, it wasn't like I didn't take lessons.
I was not very good.
I just was good enough.
to write and it was a tool for me.
It was a healing tool.
It was probably the most healing thing I did.
at that point in my whole life, like I shouldn't even say I mean healing is a good word, but comforting.
Do you know what I mean?
Like I didn't like overeat as a child, you know, and I didn't drink or do drugs at fifteen.
You know what I mean?
I I like wrote songs
And it really, really helped me.
I found my thing.
And I I have said this cause I've spoken so many times, whether it's on stage or at
schools or whatever or even i in my sober community I speak often about being addicted to sadness and so many people relate to that even though I'm
being a s a little bit dramatic, but not really because I think I was comforted by that because people always say when you that if that's all you know, then that's
then that's the thing that comforts you and and finding joy then is hard.
You can have it, but you don't hold on to it because it's easier to feel sad or it's or because it's
more familiar.
Whatever our like baseline feeling was, you right, is like my my familiar.
So sad to me was like
you know, crying in the bathroom listening to Marianne Carey.
That was probably a version of comforting, right?
And so this was my first tool for that sadness.
And so I tell people all the time, like young people or, you know, if I'm talking to someone about and not uh probably my girls, I'm gonna encourage them to find their things.
Like find your thing, whether it's
basketball or crocheting or painting or music or writing or you know I mean does it whatever it is, you know?
I picture it like you, like we were talking about you as like this deep feeling child who had all these emotions and then you figure out, okay, well I can write poems, that kinda helps.
Oh, okay, I can actually turn that into a song.
And then actually singing, it's like this release.
You're like, okay, these are all the thoughts
thinking that you're trying to explain to your mom.
These are all the thoughts that are in my head that like no one is understanding.
And then you're singing and people are like resonating with it.
And it that must be
Right, I'm reading too.
Totally.
But I will say what's maybe a little bit unique for my story is like I didn't perform.
I would write these songs and show absolutely no one.
And then I would like
Till my mom.
And then I had a best friend named Meghan McCannless in high school and showed met her because we loved like Michelle Branch and Jason Mraz.
and Ashley Simpson and you know like those albums I remember and you know so I was like writing these really emo ballads and what's funny is like a lot of people
Especially in high school, like play guitar at a party, you know, and they're like, you know, playing all these songs everyone knows or whatever.
I was the opposite, right?
I was seeing you these like
songs called Tragedy.
You know, I was like, so again, it's my gut.
Character.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like no one's enjoying this at the party.
I'm not gonna pull it out and be like, listen to my heartbreak, you know
And so I didn't I didn't share it as a performance piece.
It was more so almost like a diary.
You know what I mean?
It was the same thing like a like a diary.
So then I remember slowly I would, you know, some friends would ask me to play something or whatever.
And then I remember in high school I played a show at the all boys school because I went to an art all girls' school and then there was like a talent night at the all boys school and all my best friends
that went there were from my grade school or whatever and they made me play and I played like four songs and I ran in the bathroom after I'd cried my eyes out.
I cried my eyes out.
I still remember my mom and my aunt and everyone coming after me.
Like and if I tell you that I still do that, like I don't know if you believe me, but like there's something that happens
From exposing your vulnerability for me that was exactly the same that day when I was 16 and still at like 26.
I don't know what it is, if it's the fact that I'm
being so honest.
I don't know if it's the fact that I have that missing piece and I don't think I'm good enough.
I don't know if it's ADHD or like some sensory issue and I don't like the feeling of
people clapping, right?
Like I think now sometimes like that could be really overstimulating.
And I don't know.
That this is something I have yet to
totally figure out.
I'll tell you I've been working on it for like 10 years.
But I just find it interesting that I reacted the same way that first time as I
still do when I perform where I don't like the way I feel when I get off stage and I have to come back in my body and then I can enjoy whoever came to the show or like maybe a great performance or whatever people are saying about it.
But like
The second it's over, I feel like most people would feel like fulfilled or like, you know, an an an extrovert would feel energized, whereas I'm such an introvert that I'm depleted of everything I have
You just give it everything you have.
You have to like I guess.
Yeah.
So when when that happened to me when I was 16, I hated it
So I was like, oh well, I'm not gonna be a performer.
Like that's that's obvious.
That was awful.
Like I'll never do that again.
And what's so wild is from
From 16 to 23, when I became a professional musician, I probably played five shows in that time.
I hated it.
I was like, no, no, no.
I think I'm a songwriter and I'm gonna give my songs to another person because once I realized that that was a job because
I mean I'm moving kind of forward here.
I from fifteen to twenty-three.
I all I did was write songs, right?
So that was like the thing.
But you asked your question was like when did you play a song and then no people wanted to hear it or whatever?
And the truth is I didn't
And I didn't show people and I didn't enjoy that part of it.
And so I thought that I would give my songs away and I was like, That's a job.
I found out you could be a songwriter for someone else
And so I moved to Los Angeles on my 21st birthday.
Okay.
My brother was here.
And so what's interesting is I did take the steps forward.
to chasing this dream almost in spite of me, like anyway, as if like the universe was doing it for me and I was just like, okay.
You know what I mean?
Like it was still doing it.
Yeah, and I don't mean that in like an ungrateful way.
Certainly I'm grateful for the this gift the and all the gifts that I've, you know, received from from showing up and doing this.
But the truth is I uh it was not my first choice because I was so
shy.
I was so, you know, I love what you said about like my inner world.
Like I was so deep in there that I couldn't barely get out of it.
and get out of my own way.
You know, a lot of people say that about doing scary things, you know, to get out of your way.
And you're the only one that's telling you you can't do it.
You know, I had a family that told me I could do it.
I had friends that told me they loved
my song.
I had a best friend who was like my fairy godmother who begged me to play shows and told everyone about me and was my only viewer on YouTube.
You know what I mean?
Like I had this support and I was just like no no no no no
And so the story, the short version of it, is I just kept saying yes to things that started presenting themselves to me like
my friend who was like, can you please play in my living room my favorite song of yours while I danced because this guy I broke up with on Match Doc
Like broke my heart and I lit all my candles and I was like sure fine until I'm like playing in her living room and then she put post that video on YouTube
And then some guy solid who happened to manage Jason Moraz who was my favorite artist, and then he wrote me a message on Facebook and was like
Do you have a manager?
And I was like, no.
And he was like, great, I'll be your manager.
And I was like, okay.
And then he was like, let's record a song.
And I was like, okay, well, I have this song called Jar Full of Hearts.
It's pretty cool.
And he's like, Great, let's record it.
And so I've changed it from guitar to piano.
We called it Jar of Hearts.
I recorded the version that everybody hears now that was just
The demo and never redid it.
And I never recorded my voice like that before.
I never harmonized five times with myself.
Like it was the coolest thing.
And I thought I was gonna give it to someone else.
Like I thought this demo was what
that manager was gonna then go and give to like Kelly Clarkson, not me, you know.
And then so I emailed my best friend, the demo of Jar of Hearts, the one who was my only follower and listener and friend and uh or fan, I should say.
And
Yeah, and she emailed it.
I said, Don't show this to anyone.
She emailed it to her friend that she grew up with, who happened to be the choreographer on the show So I think we can dance.
And then Stacy Tuki played my version of Jar of Hearts on the TV show, So You Think You Can Dance at 8 p.
m.
on June 30th, 2010.
I was a waitress.
This was not what was supposed to happen.
And it went number one.
And I was like, what?
And then I'm like, wait.
Wait, it's not supposed to be me.
It's not supposed to be me.
And then it was just me and it kept being me.
And then I was performing on the CBS Morning Show.
And then I was performing on Jay Leno.
And then I was
Performing on so you think you can dance, and then all of a sudden I, you know, I'm on tour, and then I was I have an album, and I'm like, well, I have all these other songs, and they're like, they're all really good.
And I'm like, oh, okay.
And like so that
I'm obviously like summarizing, but it was it was wild.
It was absolutely wild.
But I also think it's so cool that like first of all that I was really afraid and I did it anyway.
Like I was so sick
to my stomach, throwing up before every show, didn't think it was supposed to be me, did it anyway.
And like I will say, something would happen where like I would
move out of the way and just like enjoy it.
And then I felt I was supposed to do it.
Like I felt like it was supposed to be me at some point.
I think when I wrote a thousand
years, I was like, okay.
Like I can't deny it anymore.
Like if jar parts was my only thing, maybe I would have been like, you know, oh that was just luck.
Or s you know, whatever.
But the fact that like a thousand years was ten times bigger than Jar of Hearts and then allowed me to travel the whole world like five times and that every single person got married to it between 2012 and, you know, now
And including Scott and I, we walked down the aisle to Um Are You Serious?
Yeah, his sister is
an amazing singer and uh she actually sung it for us at our wedding and it was I love that.
Oh see
I'm such a romantic that like I do love that and I love how many people tell me that and I feel like I've been included in so many people's wedding days.
Like it's just such it's like beyond an honor.
I can't even like
Can you wrap my head around it?
I will say that my two most favorite things are people obviously who got married to this song, but also now that are having babies and then play my lullabies for their kids, like
Now that means the world to me because I'm a mom.
But before I was a mom, like obviously finding out that, you know, how many people included this song on their day and in their experience is like
It's mind blowing.
I actually can't wrap my head around it fully.
It's just crazy.
It's it's crazy to be from in my my point of view, like someone, you know, singing these words I wrote and
It's just the best.
So thank you.
Thank you for doing that.
Thanks.
Oh of course having me there that day.
Oh, it was so good.
And I know that like that song is so special uh to us because of that day and because Scott's sister sang it and and that was like
Really beautiful.
I know like mine is such a smaller scale because my I mean I have my Insta page, but there's lots of families there.
Do you ever just sit there sometimes and you're like, man, like
there's just a piece of me in so many different homes and it feels like you're almost like kind of just spread out all over the world.
Like I think of that people say like, Oh, I watched your stories or I
I'm taking your parenting course and I live in New Zealand or something like that.
And I'm just like, man, it's so cool.
Feel similar to you.
Like and I just wonder how you must feel this way on such like a bigger scale.
Like there's just
Everybody knows Christina Perry and they know these songs and like how did that feel for you as you're going from this very deeply sensitive child who's like
You know, all thinking in your own world.
And now you've like quickly rose to fame, but you were never expecting to be famous.
You thought you'd kind of be like the sidelines and now yeah, everybody knows your songs and you're playing in front of tens of thousands of people.
Like, how are you feeling at that point?
Well the first thing I wanna say is it's not necessarily on a smaller scale.
So your experience is probably similar to mine because we're having the same feelings.
You know what I mean?
It doesn't matter like the numbers.
I've never even like thought too much about that, but but you are right.
It does
first of all it feels amazing to like have this authenticity out in the world.
And maybe you can relate to this too.
Like I have to be so grateful at the end of the day for this job because I'm I'm able to just be me.
Right.
I was like
So many people would say to me that like my songs made them feel better or you know, first it was Jar of Hearts so that everyone was telling me a really heartfelt negative or sad story relating to a Jar of Hearts.
It got
much better when people started loving a thousand years because it was more of a happy positive I got married to your son.
But Jar of Arts was like, oh man, I've heard the worst stories on earth, but people are like
Thank you, you know, for making me feel better.
And I used to just say, thanks, but like that song made me feel better.
You know what I mean?
Like I wrote it so that I could heal from my heartbreak.
And so I love that I'm able to
just be myself.
And I think that's helped me.
So to answer your question, like I didn't love it.
I did not love the attention because it was so jarring and it was overnight and it was like just all of a sudden I went, you know, from not being known to being known.
But I found my way through it by almost like navigating it into in the way that works best for me, which is
Two things.
One is I love that my music is more famous than necessarily me.
So like yes, a lot of people know my name or
think they might know my name, but they definitely know my songs.
And so like a lot of times it makes me feel better to say like, yeah, my songs are really famous.
You know what I mean?
But like I can
go to the beach in New Jersey every summer and like have a great time with my family and like only like one or two girls will come up to me on the beach.
You know what I mean?
Like so I somehow I've like created this like
I don't know.
This is what works for me.
Like I and I I don't judge anybody's experience with any kind of fame, but I feel like it's
bizarre.
It's oh overall it's kind of bizarre.
And so i in order to not think too much about it or change too much, because you could definitely get
If well, if you're me, I'm always in my head, you know?
So I could definitely overthink it and and just kind of spiral, you know, out of all different things.
The way I look, the way people feel about me, like
Something that's really interesting now as a mom and what I've been like sharing and putting out into the world the past five years has been
received so lovingly because moms are so amazing and our community is so loving.
Whereas when I was
only putting out music, people were like, I don't like your hair.
I don't like your outfit.
I don't like your teeth.
You know what I mean?
Like I got I used to get like hate as much as I not as much, but as with the love, you know?
Yeah, totally
But what's so fascinating now is like I've been putting out lullabies and just sharing my experience with motherhood and grief and all these things.
And it's like only positive.
I don't hate social media.
So many people are like, I hate social media.
I'm like, are you kidding?
Like this has like been so healing and and loving and such an amazing
tool, you know, for my recovery in so many ways.
And then now I feel so lucky to share this side of my life.
You know, like so I felt great about giving songs to the world and that felt cool to like help people and but I feel like
the past five years has been like much more fulfilling to me, if I'm being really honest.
You know what I mean?
Because I'm a mom, so it means more to me when a mom tells me she plays my songs so her child can sleep.
Because I've been a sleep deprived mom.
You know what I mean?
Like I've had a child who won't sleep.
Or, you know, when someone is in the hospital and they, you know, only want to watch my videos, like the the animations that I did for all the lullabies, you know, someone's getting their tonsils out and my son o will only watch your videos and
He was so comforted by them.
Like what whatever.
Whatever the story is.
And I treat this like I feel safer, you know, if I think about it.
So I felt
vulnerable when I was touring the world, playing shows and sharing about my heartbreak and relationships and all that stuff, like which again I
kind of couldn't have done it any other way.
That's just sort of who I am.
Like I said, like nothing's off the table.
Like I'm very open.
I've always been an overcharer.
I'm super interested in conversations of the heart.
You know, just going like straight to it.
But that left me very vulnerable and probably pretty scared, like overwhelmed and overstimulated and like on my tour bus every night, like uh, you know, reeling from the oh from the
vulnerability of it all.
You know?
That's very vulnerable.
Yeah.
But again, I have to say, like
Everybody was sing along.
And I feel like that really helped me.
You know, we perceive like artists because I I'm a fan first.
I'm a you know, I was not an artist first.
I feel like, you know, I have
all these artists that I love and admire and and still just study basically.
I I love s continuing to be teachable
And, you know, I feel like we look at our artists and sometimes like celebrities as if they're like not real people where that's just not true, you know.
And my experience is like I wonder if
the people that love my music and the people that have come to my shows and the people that have sang along could ever possibly know how much they were helping me, you know, because it probably looked like
I was performing and I've got it together and I like come out and I'm dancing and singing and I'm just crushing it.
I don't think people would realize that how broken sometimes I was inside
and how I didn't think I could do it and then I would just do it anyway, which is what I constantly teach Carmela, who's very sensitive and thinks, you know, she gets in her head and she doesn't want to go out and do the dance class or karate or, you know, whatever
And I'm teaching her it's okay, it's okay that you're scared, those feelings that, you know, nervi I'm nervous all the time and I do it.
I you know, I try to do it anyway, whatever.
And um I think now about
If everyone hadn't sang along every single word of Jar of Hearts while I'm singing it, I probably would have thrown up on stage, you know?
Because I was like throwing up before the show.
And then after.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
But like
Yeah, it really was a collaborative thing.
And I think that, you know, not a lot of people share that part because we're supposed to just
be so put together and cool.
It's just like never been my MO.
I'm just like, no, not cool at all.
I'm a Twilight fan.
I'm, you know, I love puzzles and Legos.
So like I don't try to be cool, but I like
also think that that the most fulfillment I've ever had from this job has been connecting like full connection with someone who says like me too like me too with the with my mom group me too with
grieving moms or with, you know, just postpartum depression or, you know, heartbreak or all the things that I'm not afraid to
talk about or sing about now.
It's like the heavy stuff.
And it's so fascinating because that was me at eight.
Like I just didn't know how to handle it or carry it or process it or didn't have any of the tools to like navigate it
You know, but now that I'm like older and I've spent so much time trying to like understand myself and the world around me, I'm like, all right, let's go.
Like if I can write about things people are trying to figure out how they're feeling and you know, like
I love it now.
I think my very long answer is like I didn't love it.
I found a way to love it and found my little place
in this world and in this industry that's pretty scary and can be really awful.
I have found such a little nook that is so loving and so sweet and I love it now.
Yeah
I feel like you found such a nice place and you have these amazing moms, like every mom I know, like plays your lullaby to their kids, right?
Like I love that.
Yeah.
And we're just so connected together because we're all moms and we we can share these collective experiences.
So whether you're
Christina Perry and people, you know, look at you and as this famous singer, but like you're a mom and you've experienced sleep deprivation, you've experienced postpartum depression, like you've gone through grief.
I was literally sitting here, like in this chair last night.
We were kind of prepping for the podcast and my daughter was sitting on my lap and she was saying to me, she was like, Mummy, what's the podcast about?
Like, what's the point of the podcast?
I was telling her, 'cause again, they don't really know what we do.
She sees a microphone, right?
She's like, what do you what do you do?
What's a podcast?
So I was telling her how every night before bed, she'll ask me to tell her a story of when I was a kid
And I was telling her, I was like, you know how you always ask me to tell you stories of when I was a kid and how sometimes those stories that I tell you are similar to things that you're going through
I said, like, remember how I told you when I was when I was a kid and that there was a kid in my class who wasn't very nice to me and how that made me feel and how you were actually you had a kid in your class who wasn't being nice to you and that made you feel sad
And remember how when I told you that story, it just made you feel a little bit safer because you felt like mommy had gone through the same thing.
And I said to her, I'm like, that's exactly what I want with the podcast.
I said, Mommy's gonna talk to lots of different people.
And the point is that we're gonna all share our stories and when we hear other people's stories, then sometimes it makes us feel a little bit better in the same way.
No, that's such a good answer.
And I feel like that's so much of what your music is and like your most recent album too, like Evergone.
balled my eyes out.
Like I lost two of my grandmothers in the last couple of years and when I listened to that song, like it's a different story.
It's a different experience, but it's both lost.
And
And like we can understand those things.
And I think it brings us together.
And that's probably why you found this community now, because moms we can relate to each other all on like on this this totally.
Yeah, and I also feel like nothing kind of levels you out or like challenges you more than being a mom.
And if that's what we have in common, then like my love for every mother, like it's so overwhelming sometimes to think like
Even if it's a stranger on the street, but they're holding a child, like I'm gonna go out of my way to help them.
Like we are part of this club that is like, I don't know, ancient, but it connects us so deeply and like
I don't know what else is like that other than motherhood.
It's just like such an incredible like it's the tribe we all never had.
We all actually have it.
You know what I mean?
Like I just feel lucky, first of all, to be a mom.
Like I definitely especially just the past couple of years, like I know how hard it is sometimes even to get there.
And so I wish, you know, the people that want to be moms that they all get to be.
But like
I have changed so much on the inside.
Like what you said about your daughter being your biggest critic.
Like, it's so funny now.
Like, I only care what Carmel thinks.
too.
It helps me in every area of my life now to see it a different way.
And it's changed my perspective of myself mostly, right?
So like I don't care if I'm wearing the coolest self and I care if I'm doing a good job talking to Clarm
You know what I mean?
I care if I'm saying the right thing to her.
I care if I'm supporting Pixie and you know, with her she had like a little OT thing and I was taking her like
I care so much about them that like it just feels so much bigger than like anything I ever did.
You know?
And yes, I've got a cool job and like I'm so grateful for that too.
But I also feel like if no one was listening, I'd still do it
Like I feel like I'd still write those songs and I'd still like put them in my journal or, you know, I still do journal, by the way.
But I feel that it's just such a cool part of me, but like the bigger part is mom
It just feels like that's the one that I like wear with the most pride.
Like I'm so proud to be a mom.
But you know, it's how we feel like when we make it through the newborn phase, you know, and we're like, oh my God
You know, on the first birthday.
Like we did it.
You know, like taking almost one.
And uh but I remember Carmel's first birthday, like, oh my god.
Like it's like traumatic but wonderful, but you know, it's every it's every emotion on earth
Yeah.
And like, you know, and it's so nice to like A, you don't even have to say it to other moms, right?
We just get it.
But I just love that like also that podcasts like what you are doing in your page.
I was trying to think today how I even found you.
It had to have been
Someone posted something of yours or maybe even my explore page, but like, you know, I followed mostly moms now, so I'm sure someone reposted something you did, and then I just like randomly
You know what I mean?
Like I I don't remember exactly.
I remember that there was one day and this was like years ago.
I think we've been following each other for quite a while
I just like happened to show up that Christine and Parry's viewing my stories and I remember being like Parody looking at my story
Yeah, I am a little bit with Scott.
Yeah, just like randomly one day.
But and I was like, she sang her wedding.
Cool thing.
So yeah.
It's the cool thing about social media.
This is why I'm grateful for it.
You know, and a lot of people have asked me, like, I don't know, tools for grief and tools for
getting through just like really hard things and you know and still being sober and walking through my life in the past couple years and and keeping my sobriety and all these things.
Like it's always connection.
I feel like connection
is like constantly the thread in my life of how I get through anything, right?
And that's sort of something that we learn as we get older.
And so
the last thing to do when you are going through something difficult is to be alone.
I feel like that should be the last thing on your list because whether it's one person or if you're sharing for so many people, I it's healing for both of us.
Do you know what I mean?
So I I've like learned that a zillion times over and over again.
But like I feel like that's why social media is just so and again, why I'm grateful I found this little no
in it because it is really loving and and wonderful and I wouldn't stop.
I mean I did take my girls off of social media like posting every day.
I just had an experience where like
There's you know, this a there's a million people following me and and you know, the world can be a a tricky place.
And so I felt when Carmelo turned five, I was like, you know,
I feel like her body autonomy means a lot to me.
We talk a lot about it.
And like if she decides she wants to be public one day, that's gonna be like her choice.
But I also like
still make lullaby records.
And so I actually did a photo shoot two days ago with the girls for songs for Pixie because I made songs for Carmela, songs for my daughter Rosie, songs for Pixie.
But I feel comfortable putting out pictures
of them that like I choose that are like controlled.
So I've decided, you know, I'll make sure to share them when it feels appropriate.
But even so, like, that's also something I'm learning to navigate for how big the world is.
That my mom group is is phenomenal and I all the moms that follow me, like, you know, I can still
share what I'm going through and will continue to always share what I'm going through as I'm going through it because I'm just like learning in real time.
I never know what's next.
I used to think like, oh, you know, surely that's the craziest thing that will happen to us this year.
And like it isn't.
Like life just keeps being wild and wonderful and and hard.
And so I feel like that is so back to my childhood, that is exactly how I've always been.
Like I'm gonna write it down, I'm gonna get it out for me, and then I'm gonna share it probably very quietly, you know, in my own way.
And then it might help some people.
Then this is like this beautiful circle, you know, that's just keeps me going.
I wanted to talk a little bit.
I I know that there's this story of Carmela and I would love for you to share it.
after you you lost Rosie and you can talk about that too if you'd like to and and I know that you're like becoming this advocate for getting this blood test done and and I wanted to give you a chance to talk about that too.
It's just really important.
So yeah, I wanted to give you a chance to talk about that as well.
Okay.
So well here's what I'll say and thank you for this platform too, because I'm sure
the listeners here hopefully either are already moms or if they want to continue being moms or are first time trying moms or even just mothers, grandmothers or friends that know women that want to be moms
Everyone is sort of included in people that should know this information.
So I had a stillborn daughter named Rosie at 34 and a half weeks.
I had a miscarriage before her and 11 weeks.
That felt a little bit more common
Whereas a first trimester miscarriage, you know, is one in four women and I feel like when that happened I didn't think anything was wrong necessarily.
I there were no red flags for me.
But when I lost Rosie in the third trimester, I knew for sure something was going on and so I began an investigation, you know, on my
self and my health and and went down this road trying to figure out what happened and also because I still very much wanted to give Carmela
a sibling and wanted to have another child, so I needed to figure out what was wrong and try to solve it.
In doing all that, I realized that I had a blood clotting disease called antiphospholipid syndrome.
But the advocacy part of this is
I was not tested for this when I could have been because they don't test women unless they've had two or more sometimes
Three or more losses.
And so what I'm fighting for right now is to just test all women for this, just to get it out of the way in the prenatal screening.
It's one blood test.
And what it does is it counts your antibodies and it figures out if you have potential for a blood clot.
Turns out both my miscarriages were due to a blood clot, which had no signs whatsoever, no warning signs.
I had no symptoms.
So it was easy to miss and non intentional.
Nobody missed it on purpose.
I cared very much about my health and I somehow didn't know when I'm very healthy.
So I found out that the way to
overcome this problem is just to take blood thinner, which is very cheap, very easy, has no side effects, and potentially could save your child's life.
So when I found all this information out, one, it was very healing to me to understand what was wrong.
Two, it was very upsetting
to know I could have prevented it had I been tested.
Three, I decided to spend the rest of my life in honor of Rosie helping other people and saving babies, which is a win-win for everybody.
So
Uh, I've been speaking about it.
I've been meeting with all different people all over the country.
The American College of Obstetricians and gynecologists are like the people that change protocols for people.
I'm trying to do it behind the scenes so women don't even have to worry about it
But the truth is it's taking forever.
So I started sharing about it.
So I I like was on Good Morning America.
I've spoken to People Magazine.
Like I'm trying to spread the word because moms are the best people to do that.
Like there is no better community in the whole world.
So I think that before it changes, moms just have to advocate for themselves or for the people they know.
So all you have to do is ask your doctor to test you for it.
I personally think you need to refuse to let them say no.
I think like, you know, if they're like, no, you probably don't have it, like I would do it anyway, just to make sure, because again I had no signs of it
But I will say if you've had multiple miscarriages or w you know, even just one, I would take the test for sure to see if you can prevent having another loss.
So overall, it's
Very sad story to have lost my daughter Rosie, but I do believe this was her purpose.
I do believe that by changing this we can save
so many people and families and and they don't have to go through the pain that my family went through because it it really did affect me forever.
My husband and Carmela.
Carmela did therapy
for a whole year.
Paul and I did therapy for a year solo, together, as a family.
I mean this affects so many whereas
Someone could just say, Oh yeah, if you have a couple losses, but those each of those losses can be so traumatic that I just wish people didn't have to have any
Yeah.
I feel like that's so easily dismissed.
Oh, if you've had a few losses, then get it checked out.
It's like, well, it's not just a few losses.
It's Yeah, no.
I'm trying to put a a story to it.
Yeah.
And like
the emotional part I bring when I walk in the room and talk to these people about it.
So I'm I'm doing the best I can to get this going.
So it becomes a you know, just a non issue
And the truth is like over time women's health progresses and you have to have stories like this 'cause I think the best analogy is the test
for diabetes, right?
At twenty-six weeks, we all get this test.
No matter where we come from, where we live, who we are, and our background and our medical history, we all get the gestational diabetes test at twenty-six weeks.
And so I've been using that as a model.
Like why did that happen?
You know, why did they add that protocol in for everyone and make it universal?
So that's what I'm trying to do for everybody because
more and more and more people are losing babies to blood clots and nobody's really talking about it.
So I'm just like starting the conversation, getting really loud, hoping women will fight for themselves and, you know, push against
doctors that say they don't need it.
Like just do it.
It's just one blood test and it could save your baby's life and then save your whole family from going through this tragedy.
And so, you know, Carmella
She knows about death.
She knows a lot of things I kinda wish she didn't.
It might also go with how sensitive she is and it's you know, it's part of her story and it's
affecting her and her upbringing, but hopefully it's making her even more sensitive and beautiful and we have conversations that are just so incredible about life.
And Rosie, we talked about Rosie every day
She knows that she is a big sister to Rosie and Pixie.
She tells everyone about Rosie.
You know, we have uh Rosie's life is very present in our lives.
Yeah.
And will always be.
And I think that there's also a community of of people who for many, many, many years have been quiet about their stillborn children or
you know, I've just been told to keep it to themselves and I'm also trying to change that narrative and, you know, just include her in in our family, you know, like we would anybody else.
And so
Carmela is a piece of that and I share often about Carmela's experience with it because you know so many people have that experience as well.
So anyway, thank you for letting me share that and I hope
Everybody who listens will investigate.
It's really up to them to look into it.
But, you know, hopefully it gets to the right person and it can it can save a lot of people.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I wanted to make sure that we had a chance to talk about that because I agree.
If you don't know that this is a test that you can take, then you're not going to advocate for it.
But I know that moms are the best advocates for themselves.
So
Thank you for using your platform.
And I'm sure that brings healing to your journey too, to be like, I can have a meaning behind Rosie's story as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I wanted to share with you too, you probably don't know this about me, but uh obviously I'm a therapist, but before I ran Nurtured First and my I have a private practice, before I ran those full-time, I did work with perineedle moms
And so around that time I did around the time when you lost Rosie, I was working with a lot of moms who had experienced loss as well.
And just hearing you share your story really makes me think of my experience working with those moms because I remember them seeing your story in real time.
And I remember how powerful it was for them that you were sharing your story and that you share Rosie's name so openly and that you talk about it because that was such a
big thing for the paraneedle moms I was working with is like I want to share my child's name and I want to share their experience and I want to have them as a part of my life.
Like I want to list off my kids and and they're a part of them.
And
And I think that's a big change that you're really helping make, like with your song, Songs for Rosie and your your like just the way that you talk so openly about her.
I think that's really, really powerful.
And so I just wanted to say like
from my clients and the people that I've worked with and people I know who I was like, thank you.
Like I think it it's making such a big difference.
Thank you.
I mean, like I said earlier, that's
truthfully now the most fulfilling thing to me is like just helping any mom in any way and like obviously singing
to them is is an honor, you know, but I also think that this feels important and I feel a sense of purpose.
I feel a sense of
like a new purpose, you know, and Rosie did give that to me.
And so I feel like I remember one day I was like walking on the treadmill and I'm like crying and I'm just like
you know, why why all this, you know, and and then I just remember f having this little voice in my head that was like, because you can you can do this.
Like you're strong enough for this.
Like
And so I do feel like I'm supposed to be this voice.
And, you know, maybe the openness, the sensitivity and the introspectiveness and all this stuff was a gift.
so that I can speak about it, you know, and like what you're doing is a gift, you know, to people all over who are struggling with their kids and what to do and say and and like if it's coming so naturally out of you, you know, it is a gift.
And I think that
I'm trying to do the same thing in my in my own little way and and so thank you for saying that 'cause that really does mean the most to me for sure.
Yeah, I wanted you to know that.
Like 'cause I I see it on my side with with the parents that I work with who really
That just means so much to them and especially, yeah, the way that you name her and just have her as part of your family and and you show that, that means a lot.
So
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
There's so many good things that we talked about today.
I feel like we could probably sit down for like twelve hours and just talk and talk.
So we we need to do this again.
But
Yeah, I wanted to wrap up because I'm mindful of your time and I know you have a little Pixie napping.
Um Thank you.
Yeah, I'm sure she's up now actually.
Yeah.
I saw that you have a new album coming out and I'm assuming it's coming for Pixie's first birthday, but I don't actually know
Sure, sure.
Well we we haven't announced it yet, but I know everyone well not technically, but but I've given hints all year.
So
Yes, I'm definitely keeping up with my tradition for Songs for Carmela, Songs for Rosie, Songs for Pixie, but then I have a surprise project that's coming out right after that that I've been working on too.
So I can't say because I haven't announced it anywhere.
But I'm looking forward to it and it's yeah, I'm really, really excited about it.
And then I also just put out a anniversary
Love Strong.
So Love Strong came out on vinyl for the first time.
Atlantic Records is doing like this anniversary seventy fifth year celebration and they picked all these
albums to put out as vinyls and they picked Love Strong, so that's just come out too.
And then I have a couple of really fun things for next year too.
So I've I I kind of like
feel like I'm I'm wrapping up a little bit on my mom only day-to-day stuff and like slowly peppering in some work
stuff.
So I feel like I'm gonna maybe next year do a bunch of shows and you know, whatever feels comfortable, right, and authentic.
But I think it'll be really fun to bring the girls and have that
new chapter of my life with them and see what that's like, but to continue to do what I do, you know, with the girls watching and learning.
From me and how to be, you know, I think it's important to show them how to be working, awesome, chase your dreams, brave
Right.
If I want them to be all those things and hope that for them, I just have to show them this is what I've learned, you know.
And so it means a lot to me to to teach them that.
Yeah, I think I can totally understand that too.
Like my baby is
17 months now too.
So I feel like I'm also like that's the podcast, right?
I'm exiting this season of just like full blown motherhood diapers every single day.
And now I'm I'm also entering this stage of like
Okay, I feel like I can maybe do the podcast I've been dreaming of for six years.
Like maybe it's time to and having the girls watch you is so powerful.
So I'm excited to see all the amazing things that you have coming up.
I'm excited to hear that you're touring again.
I hope that I can come see you.
I just absolutely love this conversation.
Thank you so much for coming on today.
This has been great.
Well, thank you.
Thank you so much for asking me.
And I hope if I play a show, you'll come and I can give you a big hug.
Oh I know.
I actually I I wish you were in person.
I feel like we need a hug after this conversation.
Let's head over to coffee time where Scott and I share some of
of our reflections from this amazing conversation.
I actually don't know this about you, but Christina was talking about how it was really hard for her to be a deeply feeling person
in a world that didn't really understand feeling things really deeply and how that made her kind of go internal.
And I was wondering for you, did you feel
Feel like you kind of also had this deep internal world?
Were you aware of your emotions and what you were feeling as a kid, or was it more it just came out in your behavior?
I think it was both, honestly.
I think
So when I was younger, like in grade school, the primary grades, I acted out a lot.
So it came out in my behavior.
I was sent to the principal's office often.
I was kicked out of class.
like multiple times a week.
I was put into tension at least every week, sometimes for weeks at a time.
I got into fights with other other boys at school.
I wouldn't say I acted
very great to my peers or the teachers.
I had a very clear sense of judgment or uh justice.
So if I felt
another kid in class was getting unjustly punished for something, I would stand up for that kid and then I would usually get punished as well.
So I that's often why I ended up in detention was because I was standing up for other kids.
Because you had this strong sense of justice, which is a really common thing for kids who are very sensitive.
I think because you're so in tune with others' emotions, you're like, wait, this person's being wronged.
That's not okay.
And then you feel like you have to stand up for them.
Yeah.
I remember one kid who like jumped in a puddle and got a detention because they jumped in a puddle right before we had to go in from recess.
Okay.
And I told the teacher that was stupid.
And then I jumped in the puddle right in front of her and splashed her.
Yeah.
So then I got, of course, a detention as well.
I can picture that.
I feel like our daughter would do the exact same thing.
Something that you were saying I think should just be made note of.
So you
You're coming from this home where you're not having the love that you need as a child.
You're having a really difficult time at home.
You go to school and now you're having challenging behavior at school.
you're getting into fights, you're maybe not being kind to your peers, and the response to you as a child who's struggling at home, doesn't have a loving relationship, has actually never learned how to communicate in effective ways
is let's take away things like recess.
Let's keep them in at school.
Let's send 'em to the principal's office.
Let's send them home back home to
your family.
And I think that that's still a really common response to the kids that we see who are struggling at school.
Yep.
And let me be clear, none of that worked.
It did not stop
that behavior.
If anything, I had an even more strong sense of justice.
So it's actually these people in authority trying to use their power
to keep you in, it actually made you not respect them and not want to trust them.
Yeah, and I would say the only teacher that I had a different experience with in grade school, like primary school specifically, was my grade seven teacher, Mr.
Laverty.
He
seem to truly care about all the students, including me, and would if I ever had issues in his class, like he would take me out and sit next to me and be like, okay, what's going on, Scott?
Like you can't act like that in class.
So like what's going on?
How can we resolve this together?
And I would say he like very rarely was I punished for things.
In his class, it was more, come on, let's go have a discussion.
I'm gonna sit, I'm gonna talk to you eye to eye and have a discussion with you.
And
I honestly think that he had an a major impact on my life going forward from then.
So I was like, oh, maybe some people actually do care, do have some interest in one of the children's lives.
They're they do things logically.
They
I don't know.
There's like they have your best interest at heart.
And there's actually research to back that up too, that children who are going through trauma or who are going through really difficult circumstances
If they have even one relationship where they feel cared for and they feel safe and they feel seen, they are more likely to have better outcomes later on in life.
And so that relationship ideally can come from our parents and our trusted caregivers.
But for you, if it even came from one teacher, like that could really change the way that you see things for the rest of your life.
I think it's really important for teachers or aunts and uncles or other people in our lives to know that you can make a difference in a child's life even if you just have a small role.
Tell me now then, because now you're a full grown adult, obviously, and you don't act in that way.
You're a very loving father and you're calm.
What do you think made the biggest change for you to go from that kid who was always in fights and and struggling to who you are today?
Because I think people would really want to know that.
Well, I think the kind of inflection point was in high school, like early high school, and I wanted to fit in a little more than I did in grade school.
So like it was more of like it was preserving
myself self-preservation for myself.
Like I remember in I think it was grade nine.
I realized that I would have like angry outbursts, whatever, pretty quickly.
So
One day I decided, and this was like every day, I decided to write on my palm SU, which stood for shut up, so that I wouldn't say anything.
Even if I was annoyed or angry, I would just be quiet and say nothing.
And that honestly made a pretty major impact on how I was able to then make more friends in high school and relate to people better and that didn't solve the anger issues that I had in high school, but it made me fit in more.
And then I started realizing
Huh, this is interesting.
I am talking less.
I'm having fewer of these angry outbursts, and people are starting to actually want to hang out with me now.
And that got kind of got the wheels turning, and I started to think
Okay.
What other traits of mind do I need to work on?
And that is when I would say I really started to like be more inwardly thinking and
try and understand myself, how I can improve, be able to relate to people better.
And then we started dating later in high school.
And I would say that seeing you and your family made a huge impact on me too.
Even this last week I had a mom reach out to me and she said, Jess, my
daughter is in I think fourth grade and there's a couple kids in the class who are causing trouble and the teacher's response is making the entire class stay in for every recess.
I had that a few times too.
Yeah.
So four four or five kids in the class
Now, not only are you responsible for your hurting other people with your behavior, which feels like a lot as a kid, you also are now responsible for your entire class being mad at you.
Yep.
And instead of getting curious, oh I wonder why they're having such a hard time, they're just handing out harsher and harsher punishments and it's impacting the entire class.
So I think your story
Yeah, that was a long time ago, but this is still happening in schools, and I think it's just really helpful that we can talk about it.
Yeah, that's interesting.
That's an interesting way to uh deal with that.
It's pretty common, so we need to hear these stories from people who were those kids to help us understand that that's that's not always helpful.
Yeah.
Great.
Well, I loved this episode with Christina.
I felt like we were old friends and her and I could have talked for a few years.
Yeah, she seemed very sweet
And I feel like you and I have talked about this episode so much ever since we recorded it.
And I hope that everybody else loved this episode as much as
We did and we hope to have Christrina back again someday.
She is so genuine.
I think I shared this in the episode, but we've been kind of chatting back and forth on Instagram for so long.
It was nice to actually have that long form to be able to really catch up with her.
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
We are glad that you are here.
If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review.
Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all.
A five-star rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out there.
Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.