Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
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It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
Okay, I've got Gitty Berkhoff here on Equine Assisted World today,
and Gitty is one of my heroes.
She is a mother of a special needs young man who's now doing incredibly well.
But the story of how she and her husband Henrik got there, you need to hear.
And she now runs one of the best equine assisted practices I've
ever seen in the center of Germany.
And also has a livery yard that runs as what they call an active
style, where the horses all live out in a very interesting system.
So she sort of wears all these different hats.
And in, when it comes to the cutting edge of equine assisted
stuff, gitty really is a mentor.
And is someone who, if I was in your shoes, listeners and viewers,
I would be reaching out to her for mentorship and training, and you'll
see why as we proceed with this.
So thank you for coming on, gitty.
Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and how you evolved to
the practice that you currently have?
Gitti Berkhoff: Yes, of course.
Thank you for having me here and to give me the opportunity to, to tell the story
of my husband and me and our son Julian.
And it's, it's interesting because something is near to the story you
had with Rowan and maybe that touched us and Yes, it, it, it showed us
that other people have nearly same stories or different stories, but the.
The important things are the same and, and bring stones to, stones
rolling and, and it goes on.
And we had an, an interesting way with our son.
It started from, I was working as a nurse later than teacher for nurses.
And Henry, my husband and me met each other and married were
very, yeah, fresh, married.
Can, can we say that?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Newlywed we would say.
Gitti Berkhoff: Okay.
Yeah.
And then we notice, okay, I'm pregnant, I am there's a child on
his way and they said in the middle of the pregnancy that Julian is.
Not really healthy, that he's disabled him, that they
don't know if he can survive.
And all the med medicine specialists said, you don't have to to, to get
this child, you have to do an abortion.
Is that the right term?
Mm-hmm.
And we knew no, when I, I cannot survive that.
I, I cannot.
This child belongs to us and we have to go the way with him.
As long as it needs, he needs us.
Maybe he will not survive, but we don't want to take part
of his life away from him.
Julian was born in 2002 and he had really a lot of complications and
were, he was fighting for his life.
We did the same, we were parents fighting 24 hours for his life.
And some years later when he was more stable and not so much in danger all the
time, and life went normal ways, it felt a bit more normal than in the beginning.
I thought when he, I think when he was four years old, what about riding therapy?
And we live on a farm here and we had ponies from my father-in-law, but they
were not so such educated that I could put my disabled sensitive child on, on them.
And yes, I searched riding therapy, but that was, yeah, not bad.
But I felt there's more, there's more possible than sitting on a horse going
round by round, doing some games.
Yes.
That's nice.
All the time when horses meet children, it's nice, of course, but I thought
there's more possible than that.
And I started to, to figure out is, is there a way for much more education or
more magic between horse and children?
And I found some horsemanship concepts and started to work with Julian and
sometimes families with other disabled p children came and asked for the same and.
That was, yeah, the beginning of working with children and horses and I never
said I'm doing therapy or something, but it happened that families came
here and started paying for that.
Okay.
Yes, horses are expensive animals.
Sometimes you need money.
And there, there was a bit pressure when parents come and think, the
children have to go on the horse.
We pay you for riding lessons.
And I, I said all the time, no, I'm not doing riding lessons.
I want to figure out what the children need and what is the right magic.
Education and development for the, for the children in nature.
And there was always a, a, a bit conflict.
And then something happened really interesting in I look at the date it was
2017, Henry had the idea to send me to a program in a town in, in Germany, Lingen.
And there was a presentation from Horse Boy Method and I didn't know what Horse
Boy method, what the hell is that?
Okay, you, you paid for this?
I go, but I'm tired.
I had a really hard week and now this week going to Zolin and listening to
some people, I don't know, talking about whatever, okay, I'm going there.
And then it, it took I think not, not an hour.
And I was really inspired from everything I heard there.
Horse boy method.
I called my husband and said, I have to learn that.
That's so incredible.
I have to learn that there's so much science behind.
I have to learn.
But there's no, no place in Germany at this time.
We can learn that maybe I have to go to Texas, but that's, that's not possible.
And when I came home, he said, why not?
Of course you can go to Texas.
I, I thought he's really totally crazy now because our farm, the disabled child,
my mother was really ill at that time.
I had to take care of her and there was so much work I couldn't imagine to go from
this farm and my family and my child's.
And then we planned that and went together to Texas.
In 2018, in January, we were in Texas not really knowing what we are doing.
We were there and did Horse Boy from one to four.
Rupert Isaacson: I remember it well, and I, you know, I remember thinking, wow,
these people, they're really serious.
But of course I had met you do you remember back in the winter of 2017 in
Germany And I had been out to your farm and I'd met Julian and your son and I'd
seen the operation that you were running.
And I remember thinking, I don't think this lady needs to learn anything from me.
She's clearly doing an amazing job, but.
Of course what you've developed since 2018 is even more amazing.
But before we go there, could you take us back to when Julian was born?
You've told us he was disabled and you've told us that his life was in danger.
Let's have some more detail.
What was the disability?
Why was his life in danger?
What did you need to do to bring him outta danger?
Can you tell us this story please?
'cause it will, I will really help people to understand.
Gitti Berkhoff: Mm.
When I was pregnant, they found out was ultrasound.
What is the name in English?
Ultrasound.
Yeah, ultrasound That there is, open space in his back.
We call it spina bifida.
Rupert Isaacson: Spina bifida.
Right.
Gitti Berkhoff: And Cephas Hydrocephalus.
Rupert Isaacson: Hydrocephalus.
Yes.
We have water in the, in the water.
On the brain.
Yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
And it was, hmm, terrible because they said maybe he will die before he's
born, or he will die when he's born.
Why did they
Rupert Isaacson: think he would die?
From the cephalitis or from the spine is not.
'cause there's
Gitti Berkhoff: some, you know, the cline here the small brain, the
small part of the brain was too deep.
And in this area of the, the cerebellum was too deep.
Yeah.
Cerebellum was too deep.
Much too deep.
And there was pressure on we call it h stem, the first part.
Yeah.
The brainstem.
Yeah.
Brainstem was breathing.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: Swallowing.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah,
Gitti Berkhoff: and when there's too much pressure, you can't breathe.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: And it got, it got during the pregnancy deeper and deeper, and the
pressure was too high and that you could see there was so much water in the head.
Then yeah, at that point they, they started with surgeries
during, while pregnancy unborn children to, to give a surgery.
Now they do it, all of the children get the surgery
Rupert Isaacson: inside the mother.
In,
Gitti Berkhoff: inside the mother.
Yeah.
At that point was the beginning of that.
And the specialists said if you do that, yes, that can help, but about 50%.
Get into abortion to, to, or much too early born.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Gitti Berkhoff: And that then you have more problems because of the
Too early born, the premature birth.
Yeah.
Right.
And we, we didn't want to do that.
And our profess neuro, your
Rupert Isaacson: neurosurgeon,
Gitti Berkhoff: neurosurgeon said, no, let it go like it is, and then
we will do that when he's spawn.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: That this water drain system after he was born.
But the problem with breathing was from the beginning.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: And he had a lot of p pneumonia.
Pneumonia because the swallowing, he, he bruised his fruit and milk
and something, and then he had
Infection of, of the brain.
Okay.
From the problems.
And the breathing went more worth and worth and worth.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: And then, yeah.
So
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
What did you do to retrieve the situation?
So if this situation is getting worse and worse, now you
have infection in the brain.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you do in this situation?
Gitti Berkhoff: I started praying and beaten.
Yeah.
You know, praying.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Praying.
Absolutely.
And
Gitti Berkhoff: then when he was, it was so bad that we thought the next
surgery, maybe he cannot survive that I.
I was at on a point that I thought I, I break with everything because yeah,
I, I accepted when I was pregnant.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Gitti Berkhoff: And I couldn't understand why.
I accept and we go this way and then he dies after that.
I couldn't understand.
But he didn't.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
He did not die.
He
Gitti Berkhoff: didn't.
He is, he survived.
And then was a moment when a young doctor and me, we, we had a lot
of nights sitting there with him, and the crisis was really hard.
It was really a, a, a big crisis.
And then Yuan got a bit better and this young man came in and Yuan was on, on
the, on the table to to, to be he wanted to see him and to check everything.
And he saw him and the face got wha and started crying
because he didn't know this man.
And we noticed, oh, his brain is okay.
He can he can make a difference between mommy's face and this man.
I don't want to have this man on my body.
And he said, no.
And this doctor and me, we, we were so happy to see that Julian can make
the difference between these two faces that we'd call it in German stren.
This was a not he was not used to this person, and he said, no, no, no, no, no.
And that was really a, a wonderful moment to see that he's, he's
maybe he, he has not so much
Rupert Isaacson: brain damage.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Brain damage from that.
Yeah.
And then, so it went be better and better.
And then we started
Rupert Isaacson: life.
How many surgeries did Julian have to have?
Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, there were time.
I knew that exactly, but in the first two years of his life, I
think he had nine or 10 surgeries and different stuff from the brain.
Then he had problems with the drain system in his belly,
and that made other problems.
Then it was broken more than one time.
Nobody knew from, from, growing and then he got, his body got longer
and then it was disconnected.
Well, yeah.
And the was sometimes a big problem.
Then he had five, about 41 degrees cel you and the next surgery.
Yeah, 41.
Wow.
Yeah.
41.
And then you get into the surgery.
Rupert Isaacson: Crazy.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
That was really crazy.
And you have to give that child away on the door.
You cannot wait until he is sleeping.
And that was really like to give it to, to, to some
Rupert Isaacson: hmm.
Gitti Berkhoff: To somebody.
Well, yeah.
Killing him.
Rupert Isaacson: So for the listeners and viewers, who, if
you just take a moment to think.
What this means as a parent because of course giddy, you
did not just have one child.
Gitti Berkhoff: No,
Rupert Isaacson: you have three boys.
And so you also had to be a mother.
Yeah.
To the young ones coming while dealing with all of this.
And I know that Henrik, obviously you, your husband Henrik, is
also one of my great heroes.
But nonetheless, this was extremely difficult and you are working
and you are doing all this stuff.
I think for many people, the idea of
on top of this to then start a therapy practice for other
people in your position.
For many of us, this would be too much.
Even after some years I know that the surgeries continued.
I know, okay, maybe they were more spaced out, but nonetheless,
this was, this is heavy.
How did you find the energy and the will, the willpower, the desire to
then offer what was working for you with the horses to other people?
Because I think a lot of us would say, if you had only served your
son, this would have been enough.
Enough.
Enough, right?
Yeah.
But you didn't, you went this extra.
Why?
Gitti Berkhoff: It's very easy, you know,
horses give energy, give you energy.
Mm.
And when I was really tired from not knowing when it's night, when it's day Mm.
All always in a, in a circle of doing stuff for yu.
And when I had one hour sometimes, then I hopped on a horse on
a pony from my father-in-law.
And that gave me the energy.
And that was, maybe I, I never thought about that.
But there was a point that you said, we, we all have a, a little trauma.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I, I forgot that that was I think it was a trauma all this, but the
energy from, to go out in nature and to be with the horses was so big.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Gitti Berkhoff: And.
Always in my life.
I think if you have something, what makes you happy and you share it, then it gets
more, that gives you more, you you become something back more than you gave away.
And to share this, this luck with be able to be with horses, that was
always something like a motor or something, the energy to, to share.
Then I can feel what I have.
Mm-hmm.
And I always was thankful for the, this option to be with horses.
And I told my children, my three boys, sometimes they say, why are so many
different people at our farm all the time?
And I said to them.
Yes, it's nice to be here in this paradise place.
And it gets more nice when you share it, when you let other people be a
part of of this and get the healing energy on that, that gives you the,
the, the option to, to grow and to, to stay with energy and healthy.
I think that was the most reason.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's, it's an interesting viewpoint because you are
right, but I don't think everybody comes to this conclusion, and particularly when
you have the level of exhaustion that you had, there's something before we go
into where Julian is now, and also your practice now, because you, you really
have a unique practice that I want you to.
Tell us about the, I just want you to talk a little bit about
your background as a nurse mm-hmm.
Before Julian came into the world, because I think this has also really
helped your practice and I think, yeah.
There's something I've learned a lot from you because of this previous background.
So tell us what kind of nurse were you and how has this
informed your current practice?
Gitti Berkhoff: Yes.
I was a young nurse when I worked as a nurse.
I.
Was normal on the, in the hospital working.
And then I started to work with a special patient.
Patients, yeah, yeah.
Patients with stroke, with dementia.
Okay.
And disabled mentally or with brain injuries, brain injuries
and, and sensitive problems.
Okay.
And from that later, I, I was, years later, I was a teacher for nurses.
Mm-hmm.
And had this team, and this teams was my, my biggest oh man.
What minor?
And my biggest interest to teach about strokes and people
with stroke and dementia.
Rupert Isaacson: Why were you so interested in strokes
in dementia and the brain?
Gitti Berkhoff: Good question.
Because yeah, there, yeah.
Good question.
I always told my students
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Gitti Berkhoff: That when people are with, in province with self sensory,
it's important what your hands do.
Mm-hmm.
And there's a lot of stress in this area, in this job of nursing.
And you have to run and you are always in trouble with the time and
less people and too much work, but.
How you speak, how you talk to people, how you touch them the sensory of your hands.
That's what I am.
And you are, and nobody can, can take that from you.
What, what you can give with the hands and this people that demand or with
stroke and sensory issues, they need the sensory of your hands and of your heart
and your soul and and that's they need
Rupert Isaacson: touch.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Touch from and love from here and love.
Yeah.
And that was, I, I think that was touched me and my mother later
had a Parkinson and a stroke too.
And Okay.
I could help her a lot with all this knowledge.
And I had a lot of touch to a lot of time with dying people.
And
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: And keeping them helping the way when they have the
last part of their life and all.
This was my, my favorite yeah.
Profession.
And I was teaching a lot of this stuff and to have the children with disabled
in at my place on the farm and with horses, that was often that families
came and said they don't want to put this child on a horse because it could
have precise epilep, unfi, epilepsy.
Yes.
Could have an
Rupert Isaacson: epileptic fit.
Yeah,
Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.
Or spastic or something.
And I did something that, you know, it's kinesthetic, it's the kind of
move bodies without carrying like this this is carrying and let's the
body fly, or I can take this bottle.
It's better.
You can make this or you can say, okay, let's, let's roll,
let's have other movements.
And that's good for the brain and for everything and all this can go hand in
hand with the, the idea of horse boy.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Gitti Berkhoff: And with it's not riding therapy.
I'm not a therapist.
I try to bring horses with good education and trust into
human, to people and children.
They need this magic from their bodies.
And I can combinate all this with movement, with sensory work, with
good, educated horses and a lot of fun and and crazy stuff together with
a lot of families and children and.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: well, I've seen the fun and the crazy stuff and one of my,
one of my most cherished experiences in my professional life has been taking
Julian, your son out Fox hunting.
Yeah.
And this is something I never thought we would do.
And before the listeners all scream and say, oh, you can't
go killing foxes, don't worry.
We don't do that.
We are following a pre laid scent with hounds.
No fox is involved.
However, the trappings, the outward pageantry is the same.
And of course, I grew up with this and loving the sense of freedom.
And it had always struck me as a little bit sad in the therapeutic
riding world that the experiences always had to be so controlled because.
That's not what feeds the human soul.
What feeds the human soul is adventure and nature.
And when you agreed to help us set up these special needs hunting days mm-hmm.
With a, with a real pack of hounds and laying the sensor that the
riders, including Julian, who listeners is still in a wheelchair,
but doing incredibly well.
He, he has a job.
He drives, he's all of that work and all of that angst from 20
years ago has, of course paid off.
He's a wonderful young man and he, he presents at conferences and
flies around the world doing this.
It's been a great success.
But to see him in a big western saddle in a, in hunting clothes,
going out and riding across country.
Like this,
Gitti Berkhoff: but, but let's say it's, it's, it has to be a safe
Rupert Isaacson: indeed.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
We did it in walk, but it is hunting.
Rupert Isaacson: We did it in walk.
Yeah.
But nonetheless, we were crossing country.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: The hounds were working around us.
Mm-hmm.
And we still had to get up things and down things and, you know,
it was real, it was real riding.
Yeah.
The fact that you could do this and that you could see the value of this and that,
even though I think both you and I had our hearts a little bit in our mouth, as
we say in English while this was going on, of course this could only happen
because you pay such enormous attention to the preparation of your horse.
Now you've talked a little bit about.
The need for a well-educated horse.
Mm-hmm.
But I know your horses and I know that their level of education
is something far higher than normal in the therapeutic world.
Can you talk to us a little bit about how you prepare your horses and why
you prepare your horses in this way?
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, of course.
We started our place here to be a stable for people who want to
rent a place for their own horse.
We have 25 horses from other people here, and we build it.
And I have at the moment nine horses with and with them I can work with children
and adults and we build a stable, an active stable that the horses can live in.
Hers outside all the time.
Move, have fun talk to each other.
They notice a lot of things, machines going around them, and noises and
traffic, whatever people, children fire.
We, what we do.
And that is one part that the horses have all their their needs and
we educate them from the system.
You you teach me the horse boy training system for the horses.
It, it's, it's a kind of talking, it's a kind of horse boy and the movement
for the horses movement, methods for the horses, and we train them with.
One part is crazy time that they can play and run around with other horses.
Not only one on a, a launch, but also that we are doing longing.
We do the side steps pattern lateral
Rupert Isaacson: work.
Yeah, lateral
Gitti Berkhoff: work, because that changes the in hand work.
Changes the brain.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
And
Gitti Berkhoff: then we make them bomb proof with every crazy ideas we
can have together with the children.
Mostly they have to help me to develop the, the horses with crazy stuff.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's, it's something to watch because I, I've
watched you, you know, lunging the horses for their top line muscle.
Mm-hmm.
But having the children helping you do this, and I've watched you.
Working the horses in hand to keep them supple, like a yoga.
And again, as you say, for the brain of the horse as well, and
the children helping you with this.
And, and then also, as you say, the crazy time where the horses can
have a lot of fun playing in herds.
But again, the children and the young adults that you work with all
participating in the care of the horse.
I think this is really unusual.
You don't see this in most therapeutic bonds.
There's usually a separation between the client time, which is often very
controlled and frankly a bit boring.
And the work with the horse.
And one of the things I love about your place is that the people who are
working the horse are often the clients.
This I think is quite revolutionary.
Also very practical.
When you are, when you have a horse that's educated like this the
brain is good, the body is good.
They can collect, they can make good decisions.
You can then of course explore.
I think it would be fun if you told us a little bit about how some
of your play dates, and I'm, I'm glad you call them play dates, not
therapy sessions, because I never yet met a child that wanted therapy.
But every child I've ever met wanted to play.
I have seen really, really creative things happening in your
arenas and in your forest trails.
Can you just give us some examples?
Because I think people can take inspiration for things to try at home.
Can Oh, yeah, yeah,
Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.
And the, the most and lovely and easiest thing everybody
has to try is pillow fighting.
Rupert Isaacson: Pillow fighting.
Yeah.
How does pillow fighting work?
Gitti Berkhoff: We have old pillows.
Some are strong, some are wobbly, and the wobbly are the best because if you have a
child on a horse and you will do a boring game, like, catching a ball and you throw
the ball and the ball comes to the fingers and is pew going away, and that tells
children you are not able to catch a ball.
And I'm afraid of balls.
In my childhood, I always had fear about balls getting into my face
and I'm too stupid to catch them.
And that's what children can feel.
And we started that with pillows because you can get a pillow
on your head and your face.
Yeah.
What about when it's a soft pillow?
Why not?
And when the horse gets a pillow in the face, ah, okay.
We can say sorry, but it's not really the end of the world because it's
soft and you can catch it with two fingers if you have a soft pillow.
I don't have one here.
It's easy to catch.
You can do a lot of funny stuff because chi the parents sometimes
stay on the, on the line.
On the side and waiting.
And then we take all the pillows and say to the children, oh,
let's, let's go near to the parent.
And then we throw all the pillows on Daddy or mommy.
And from that moment, parents are in, we take them in, then we run away
on the horse that they can throw it after us and they can try to throw
the pillow that it's staying on the butt of the horse or on the head.
Or you can put it on your head.
You can try to to, to ha to get it on the butt of the parents.
And that gets the most points.
Or you can count how often can we throw it and it's not falling on the ground.
And we can do it like a Frisbee.
It's so easy.
And we have a big.
There are all the pillows with different colors different
kind of soft or more strong.
Mm-hmm.
And that's so easy.
Then we do what, what,
Rupert Isaacson: Sword fighting.
Gitti Berkhoff: Sword fighting and Yeah.
Then the children have to be careful that they don't hit the head of the horse.
Sometimes they do.
Then we say something and then we play and we do play.
We play with toilet brushes, you know, toilet brushes.
Tell me
Rupert Isaacson: how you play with the toilet brush.
Gitti Berkhoff: We have pee pee pots and,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, the potties.
Gitti Berkhoff: Potties,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: And we put water in.
Yeah.
We don't, we don't tell That's water.
Like the people have to think it's peep.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
And then we have the brushes and we can put all the water on the
parents, and then they scream and run away, and then we hunt.
We hunt them.
Hunting parents with toilet.
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's an amazing site.
I've seen, I've seen your autistic kids on horseback hunting their
parents with toilet brushes, and it looks like they're, they're, you know,
like in a Catholic ceremony with the, with the, with the frankincense Yeah.
Sensor.
But instead you're doing it with toilet brush.
It's not holy water.
It's pretend be water and Yeah.
Yeah.
The, the, the sense of anarchy and joy.
Yeah.
And rebel.
And when it's
Gitti Berkhoff: hot, when it's hot, it's a nice rain for everybody.
And you can for children in a wheelchair, the toilet brush has a long stick and
then they sit and they're small and they can brush the main of the horse
because the toilet brush is longer, you can clean the horse with that.
And it's all the time.
Very funny because people come along and say
the toilet brushes and this is really nice and gets people to
communicate and ask questions.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I think, I think what is so often missing is joy and, and humor.
Real humor.
And this sense of rebellion of breaking rules, which of course
for children, this is like oxygen.
Mm-hmm.
And I think particularly children that spend a lot of their time
being controlled, and unfortunately if you are special needs, a lot
of your life is quite controlled.
This idea that you could express yourself in this way.
And then of course humor like this.
This is perspective.
When you break the rules and you take this kind of.
When you make any kind of joke, you are seeing the situation from the outside.
And I think this expands cognition because it allows the brain to, and empathy the
brain to say, okay, I need to step outside the situation, look at the situation in
perspective in order to create this humor.
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Gitti Berkhoff: There's another example for changing the perspective.
Also you can do interview with toilet brushes like a micro microphone.
Yeah, that's very nice.
You did some microphone.
Sorry, you did one.
Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, but there's another example.
When you have your stick for.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, for the, the the lunging, whip,
Gitti Berkhoff: lunging, whip with a maybe a
Rupert Isaacson: long handle.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
There is a, a string on the, on the end like this.
Okay.
The lash or this, yeah, this, this rope.
This little rope.
And when we go to the forest, there are, hmm, I don't know the name.
Distant, you know Clayton?
Yeah.
Thistles, the small distals and the small balls all the time.
Staying in the, in the tie of the, ah, no, those, and in the hair and everything.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Burdock, burdock
Gitti Berkhoff: burdock.
Rupert Isaacson: Speaking of humor,
Gitti Berkhoff: oh, this is, can you bring me a toilet brush later please?
Would be possible.
That would be, yes.
We
Rupert Isaacson: could, if we could see a little toilet brush interview,
that would be, I think, quite helpful.
Gitti Berkhoff: I, I need a toilet brush enthusiast.
One in the
the horse.
And yes.
And I went to the forest and all the time in this string of my lung lounging whip.
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
Gitti Berkhoff: The whip.
There were this distills in.
Ah, and I was like, nah this diss and put them away and, oh, there's another one.
And then I thought, change perspective.
Let's see how many distals can hold on the string.
They will fall off.
No, they don't.
And then you can start angling from the horse, the whip sitting on the horse
holding the whip, holding this string into the distals and see how many can we get?
Rupert Isaacson: Can you catch?
Yeah.
Can we catch like, like fishing
Gitti Berkhoff: big fishes from Distals?
Sometimes they fall on your head and you have a really problem
or into the main of the horse.
It's so funny that children sit on the horse and are fishing distance from
the horse with this whip and that this changing perspective from something
that makes you angry to something that makes you in a record you have Olympic
discipline from that fishing diesels.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It, it, it's genius.
Because very easy.
It's taking frustration
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And turning it into joy.
Yeah, yeah,
Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I, this just isn't taught enough.
I feel in the therapy world, the importance of joy.
If you are not creating joy, you're probably creating, its opposite.
Right.
You're probably creating some sort of suffering, even if
that is not your intention.
Because if you're not consciously creating joy, then what are you creating?
And this is something which this conversation I is not there in the
normal therapeutic trainings breaking
Gitti Berkhoff: rules,
Rupert Isaacson: but it's really the most important thing, right?
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: We have an old toilet from building the house and changing something
and it's laying into the lost things.
Place is sent.
It's a, it's a hill from sand and children can play.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, big, a big sand pit.
Big sand parcel.
Yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: And we put this old toilet there.
It's laying there.
Sometimes we, we build something with that.
And really when we go with the children there and there the first time here.
Seeing the toilet in the sand.
Parents like,
and at one point all the, the kids ask, why is there a toilet in sand?
And that's communication.
Mm-hmm.
And then we can do silly things with this toilet.
A lot of autism children have problems with toilet
Rupert Isaacson: training,
Gitti Berkhoff: toilet training.
And then we can make a, a game with that.
We can, we've thought about building poo and putting it in and building
Rupert Isaacson: poo out of wet sand.
Mm-hmm.
Gitti Berkhoff: Wet sand or dark get horse
Rupert Isaacson: poop.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Horse or create dog poo or create goat poo, human poo.
And make a treasure hunt with poo all over the farm sometimes.
Okay.
Thank you.
Ah, here is a, a toilet brush and you can make an interview with this horse.
Hello my friend.
What have you to tell us today, I think.
Where is your rider?
I want to see the rider.
Ah,
Rupert Isaacson: the crazy.
A master rider.
Could, could, could.
This is Henrik Berkoff who is the other half?
And we're gonna be doing a, a, a podcast with him over
on live free, ride free soon.
But her Ko, could you say a few words into the toilet brush for us please?
Gitti Berkhoff: Would you say something for us?
Hey,
no, you can, you can tell us something.
Rupert Isaacson: Hi, how are you?
We're, we're good.
The, the toilet brush is actually inspiring me.
It makes me feel like I need the toilet right now.
Do, how has your toilet experience been today?
Berko
Gitti Berkhoff: Nice time at the toilet.
Henrich Berkhoff: Yes.
It, it's a good time every day.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Everybody needs that.
Yeah.
Henrich Berkhoff: I have to
Rupert Isaacson: go.
Gitti Berkhoff: Human being is, you have to go
Rupert Isaacson: to the house where everybody goes.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And it's so easy to have a lot of fun with children and break rules all day.
Yeah.
And yeah.
And the rule is to have no rules.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what's, what I find wonderful about that is again,
I think kids that are controlled for so much of their lives, they lose a
little bit their self-respect because.
They don't get a chance to push, yeah.
To sell the boundaries in the same way that normal quote
unquote normal kids might.
So to give them the chance to consciously break rules continuously, like I've,
I've watched your play dates going from, as you say, massive pillow fights
on horseback, including using the little pony as a, as a hiding fort.
And also with the pillow stacked up on its butt so that you can use them
as ammunition and the pony stands stock still nose his job and all your
other horses going round as if they were in battle, knowing their job and
participating joyfully and safely and these kids going after their parents and
each other with the pillows to chucking the toilet brush water to interacting
with the toilet in the sand pit.
You, you can see the world of, and then going to the forest and fishing for
thistles or, or, or the other things.
You can see the world of these, the minds of these children just
expanding and this feeling of relief.
Like at last, I can be a proper kid at last, I can be the person.
I should be not this poor person in the wheelchair or this poor person
who's a bit depressed because, you know, I find the world confusing.
It's liberating.
But of course this can only happen if you have horses that are prepared.
Yeah.
In the way that you prepare them and the team that you have.
One last thing.
I'd like you to you to talk a little bit about your team because this is
something I think often overlooked.
For anybody's mind to develop.
There has to be a tribe.
We are a social animal and one person, one-to-one.
It's okay sometimes, but really we need multiple personalities.
But just quickly, the toilet thing, one of the reasons I find that so innovative
is I remember when I was trying to toilet train my son Rowan, and this took so
long later when I spoke to him about it, when he was more cognitive, he said,
well, dad, I was terrified of the toilet.
I was really afraid of it.
And I hear this time and time and time again from older autistic
people, when they become adults, they say, yeah, the toilet was
terrifying because it had this space.
You felt you were going to fall into the space and there was this sense
of shame and this sense of fear and getting it wrong, and then you just
wanted to push it away and push it away.
So the idea that you could have a toilet that you can go and make friends with
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And have fun with and play with in this silly
way standing right out there.
It's, it's just genius because it takes away the fear.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So all of these good ideas that you have do they all come from you?
I, again, you do have this team.
Can you talk to us about your team and how you created the team?
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, the team, the team are different girls and some
of them were, have been clients and then came back and stood here.
And I have one girl, she was here from school practicum.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, a practicum is an internship.
Gitti Berkhoff: Internship, a school internship.
And she was really depressed.
She didn't talk, you know Johan?
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, I do know her.
You know her?
Gitti Berkhoff: Mm-hmm.
And I didn't know anything.
And it's a really important point when we have a lot of children
from the plaque here, tree here.
And always I say, I don't want to know everything about their diagnosis.
I want them to feel like a child on a farm.
We always have ideas to develop them, but they, I, I want them not to have
the feeling they are from glass and out of glass and I can see everything.
There are children on a farm.
What I have to know, I want to know, but if not, totally important.
I don't want to know.
And sometimes this young people come back.
And sometimes they cannot find at the point after school, some go, don't go
to school and they sit at home in their rooms and are depressed and have no
kind of no job, nothing to do, and no
Rupert Isaacson: purpose.
Yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
And there's no sense in all that.
And sometimes they come back and start working here, and
then they are part of the team.
And it's really important that that, that the children other, no, sorry, that
the, the young people who, the staff here, everybody has his own super craft.
Superpower.
And you have to see what is your superpower and what is the child you
can be, are the best to work with.
And we see.
Some of them are really good with the smaller children or the older one, and
we don't look what we, we cannot, we, we always look after what, where are we?
Especially good.
And that makes, makes everybody feel okay, it doesn't matter what
is your superpower, but there is one and the same with the horses.
This horse is best for this job.
Sometimes the horses say, oh, I'm the right one for this job.
And that's what this team has to be the same and the children have
to feel that we are good with each other and accept what we can.
Where is our superpower?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
The big pillow fights I've witnessed.
Your girls, your team, really getting into them with the kids.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Would you say that.
The majority of your team did arrive at your place with their
own mental health challenges.
Yeah.
And by being, I So becoming professionals as part of your
team have found their own healing.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yes.
Especially one girl, she was really in a bad yeah.
Yeah.
Situation.
And she started working and later she told us that this was way out of her darkness.
In our darkness.
And yeah, she's here I think since four years now.
Mm-hmm.
And yes, everybody has his own trauma at a point.
And the horses heal.
The children, they come and us too, and the staff and yeah, I think most
of them got better through the work.
And next week somebody will start here working.
Okay.
It's really incredible.
You know this man, it's Marcos, Marvin Marcos, really?
He starts, he's sitting at home since years now, no work.
And he thought about how old does he start?
I think like Yu 2022.
Okay.
23, 22.
And Marvel specialist you have, if you ever have a question about
this Marvel and all the heroes he knows and he's very goodish.
Patient with us that yes, that when you ask the same question again and
again, no problem, he will answer.
And he starts now.
I think we start a bit like collecting poo.
And I, I told him, oh, when we, when you are here, that's super,
and you can drive the wheel loader.
It's a machine.
And he said, no, I never did stuff like that.
Do you think I can do that?
I said, yes, I know.
And you know that I never bring you in trouble with questions I have.
Yes, I know.
He said, and he's trusting me.
And at the point when he was really little, and he came here about 10
years ago, I think it was really like a people, a, a person was view to
the ground and cap puta, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: a, a hood.
A hood.
Always covering him.
Gitti Berkhoff: Always in, in this position.
And now he's really much grown up and a person like this and started
riding with a lot of safetyness.
He's, he's not he don't want to have too much action and
he will start working here.
Let's see.
I'm really interested what will happen now when he's starting working here.
Maybe two hours a day.
Better than sitting at home.
Rupert Isaacson: No kidding.
Now your own children are also part of the team.
I think this is Oh, yeah.
Talking about and tell us.
So how does Julian now participate and Oh, yeah.
'cause I know he's also working.
And then your other two sons.
We haven't talked about Tristan and Yan at all, but I think we should
now tell us a little bit about how your family is integrated.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, I think they understood that the farm is
a place to give power to other people, and it's a green care farm.
And they understood that.
It makes it, it gets more when we share
Rupert Isaacson: what is the concept of a green care farm?
Can you explain?
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
That makes, it's the way to, to let nature be a place for healing, for,
for families, for children, for people, whoever, and to, to not to only to build
stakes from maybe steaks or meat or wheat or something to eat for people.
And farming, normal farming can be, but we started to open the
farm for people to, to get healing.
To, to feel nature, to experience, nature to explore.
And there's a green care idea.
We have tiny houses for families that can come with their children and
spend time in nature with animals.
And our children started helping us.
Yeah, the, the Julian is working, you know, he's, but when he has time on
weekends, and we have groups here, people want to see the farm, he starts
to explore all this from the farm and showing the groups what we do.
And he knows everything about the farm.
If he could walk, walk without wheelchair, lift, without, he would be a farmer.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
Gitti Berkhoff: But this is in this kind, not the easiest way,
but he can be a, a part of.
The screen care idea makes maybe a job for him in, in the future.
Let's see.
And the middle son Tristan, he is now 21 and he started studying agriculture
in born in Germany and don't want to be a farmer, but he's interested
in the system, green care farm and letting and, and you can create it.
Maybe we do it with horses, maybe they do it in a different way later.
Let's see.
And the youngest is, he is a young boy.
He's 16 years old now and sometimes helping with the play dates.
And he's really good with young boys with a DHD because it's
a bit of his personality and he needs a lot of movement.
And we started.
Let him move whenever he wanted.
And this is a good place for children like him to live on a farm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's, it's something which I think listeners also should know where Giddy
and her husband Henrik live their farm.
It really is a farm.
It's not just, we often say a farm with horses when it's not actually a farm.
It's just a place where we keep horses.
But no, it is not only a farm, but an organic farm.
Yeah.
And in fact, I believe you guys were the first in your area to switch
to completely organic farming.
And it's, it's, it's a fairly serious operation.
It's several hundred acres of, of intensive agriculture as well as forest.
And you do this alongside the the equine assisted programs.
How does the farming help.
Your clients understand the world and develop in the world.
Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, I notice that children more and more are so far away from nature.
They don't know that everything you can buy in a supermarket
to eat is from nature.
It's coming from the land.
They don't know that.
Mm.
They don't know that apple grow on a tree.
They don't know that chicken give us the eggs.
Sometimes children really, it's not a joke that don't know the
difference between horses and cows.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Gitti Berkhoff: They are here in our little town.
And to get the children here, we have sh classes, school classes here, do a
bit of farming and gardening with them and putting their hands in the earth.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Gitti Berkhoff: Planting something, trees or vegetables, whatever, and
that is farming to, to, to show the children this is our planet and our food
is growing here outside on the earth.
And one example all the time, if you hear what is what about the weather today?
You may on the radio in the morning and yeah, today we have some clouds, but
later there's coming the sun and then we have nice weather and 27 degrees
today on the weekend, nobody and is happy when rain is coming after long
part of dry dry weeks or something.
Nobody knows.
It's only sunshine weather.
And they, they use the water to have the, the pool in, in the garden.
Nobody knows that we have to take care of our water.
And it's so important that to the children notice and learn outside this water, we
drink it and we have to take care of it.
And it's important to that something can grow.
It's not important for the farmer.
It's important for everybody to have food.
They don't know that that's farming.
Farming is I think a lot of farmer could start to open it for schools
and for children that people get in touch with nature and farming.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm always surprised that more farmers don't do that.
Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, really?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You know, because also those of us that really care about the countryside,
the culture, the human culture also of the countryside, which I think
is always a happier culture than a city culture because it's in nature.
We cannot expect the population of people who live in cities.
We can't expect them to care about the countryside or the environment
if they have no contact with it.
And if we are custodians of the land and we have to open it or people will
not value it and they will destroy it.
This, I think, is something really overlooked.
You have dealt with this stress from the urban kids in quite
a few ways, not just the.
School groups coming to your farm, but you taking your farm to the school, can you
tell us a little bit about that situation?
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
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Take it from there.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
There was a school and the principal of the school told us, oh, we
had a really hard last half year.
There were one child died from cancer.
And there was a, like a amok situation with a father who was amok love.
In, in, well,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
It, it threatening basically.
Yeah.
And a threatening violence.
A lot of fear threaten
Gitti Berkhoff: a lot of trouble.
The, the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.
Mm-hmm.
Ukraine children and a lot of stress, lots of violence and fighting.
Yeah.
Violent.
Yeah.
And she said, oh, could we, maybe you can come, was one of your dogs?
And we go through.
Classrooms with the dog and Henry and I, we, we thought, no, we come
with the whole farm to the school.
And we did.
We, we.
So what did you do?
What did you
Rupert Isaacson: bring?
Gitti Berkhoff: We brought two ponies.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: Into the school.
Little ponies, two goats, three chickens, and two dogs.
Hunting dogs.
Big dogs.
Crazy dogs.
And that was 300 children.
Came in groups, but not really, not everything was organized.
The children were able to decide to make the choice.
I go to the police, I go to the dogs, I go to the chicken and to the goats, and
it was in separate areas of the school and they could they, they could teach
other children how to take care of that.
The chicken get not in trouble.
We had our children, Tristan Jota and Catarina, the girlfriend of Tristan
Johanna, the worker of Farm Henry and me, and we had all this areas
with this different parts of animals or the animals and the children
went through all that and took.
Yeah.
Get, got in touch with the animals on the, in the school.
And one child in at least came and said to me, this was the
nicest day in my whole life.
And really hard touching moments.
And to have the, the animals, they did it.
It was so, they were really great.
And for example, I, I did two ropes on every side of the dock.
Yeah.
One, two in the middle of the dock, and then children, 1, 2,
3, 4 children on both sides.
And then was a challenge not to
pull it, push, pull it, pull it, pull to pull, not to pull the dog.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: To see what the dog will will do and what he wants to explore.
Okay.
And the dog was going around the field.
Ah,
Rupert Isaacson: and the
Gitti Berkhoff: children had to follows,
Rupert Isaacson: had to stay connected to the dog, but not interfere with him.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
And, and I did the ropes like this, and the dog was under, then they, right.
They were the, the, ah, the tension of the, the ropes were like here
and the dog was not in trouble.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Not affected.
If they did pull in, no, not
Gitti Berkhoff: throw the dog into parts.
No, the ropes were like this and the dog was under this here, and then they
couldn't, and they was so soft, they had to take care that all the children were
in, in, in this right position to, to go where the dog wants to go in the middle.
And that worked.
And I had experts to say, oh, I think the dog needs a break.
Everybody stopped the dog lay on the ground and get cuddled.
And the same with the ponies and with the goats.
Not to lead them.
Let's see what they want to do.
Follow the pony, follow the goat, follow the chicken, get on the ground.
Be not too high for the chicken.
Then they come to you.
You cannot catch them.
They have to come to you and like stuff like that,
Rupert Isaacson: yes, was
Gitti Berkhoff: so nice and easy.
The most easiest things are often the most effective things.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, anytime that you do those types of exercise too.
I think once again about this thing about empathy and perspective taking.
Yeah, and looking through the eyes of somebody or something else or
looking after the needs of something or someone else in a way that is
playful and interesting and fun.
Rather than you have to do this, you have to take care of the knees.
They sound simple to do, but they're not.
How do you come up with these good ideas?
Because I think you don't see this type of work very often.
What makes you, where, where does it come from?
This creativity?
Gitti Berkhoff: Hmm.
I don't know.
It's, it's in the moment.
It's in the moment When I think something is a problem, then I
think, can I make a game from that?
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Gitti Berkhoff: Can I do this like a concept?
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Gitti Berkhoff: When I get angry, can I make a joy from that?
Rupert Isaacson: So it is basically the idea that what you are doing
is you're taking every situation that is potentially negative and
you're just turning it upside down.
Gitti Berkhoff: Try.
Yeah.
I try.
Yeah.
That's brilliant.
It, it helps a lot.
Rupert Isaacson: Did, did you always have this personality or is this
something that you learned over time?
Gitti Berkhoff: Ooh, I think, Hmm, yeah, when I was a child, yeah, maybe
there was a Siri called MacGyver Uhhuh, and this man can change every
problem in he can, he can build something, a machine from maybe on this
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: And, and this, and, and doing something with that.
I dunno.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: And that's so funny to, to, to figure out how can I find the
MacGyver situation from that and Yeah.
That it's, it's a game.
It's joy.
Rupert Isaacson: I don't know.
Did, did your work with dementia?
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Help you with this somehow?
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Interesting point.
Because the dementia people, you cannot change what they had in their life.
It's long time ago, and now they are in a situation and feel
that the same happens again.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Then
Gitti Berkhoff: you have to follow.
You cannot discuss and say, no, there is nobody who wants to kill you.
You cannot discuss that.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Gitti Berkhoff: Because what they feel is the truth, and that's for everybody.
If I feel something, it is real.
If I feel fear because of a toilet, it's real.
We cannot discuss about that.
Yeah.
Then we have to follow, follow.
And we have to believe that the children have to have the feeling that
I believe them when they have fear or a, an they are angry or whatever.
And from that, if you accept the first point is accept, accept it, and then
let's see what we can do with, with this.
And to be creative and to break every rule you can break.
Maybe that's can be the, the, the way out or the way in.
More the way in than the way out.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I agree.
You, you've talked to me before also about the, and I think this
is what you are getting at when you say you have to believe them.
You've talked to me about validation and the, the importance of validation.
And you've talked about it both.
With people with dementia and with people with autism or a DHD.
Can you tell us what you mean by validation and how do you
use it in a way that isn't just bullshitting someone and telling
them, oh, yeah, yeah, you're right.
You know, how do you make this validation something that can lead to change?
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
An example
oh, let's, let's see.
Which example would be the best.
I had an old lady and she, she was really in fear and very ex exhausted or, mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And nobody knew how to get her more cut, feel safe.
And she was running all around and asking everybody, where is my, my handbag?
I lost my handbag.
And they try to give her handbags.
Here is one, take this.
No, it, it was, it was never the right one.
And validation meant that you don't try to talk about, stop searching your handbag.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Gitti Berkhoff: And it's long time ago.
What, what?
There was a problem.
And, and you don't, you don't lost your hand back here.
Is it?
It's about
imagine the, the fear of losing it because I worked with her and then
we, we came into at a point I asked.
I asked her what she told you, lost your handbag.
And to ask what they, what they say gives the opportunity to speak.
And then we found out this really demand person when she was in, in the second
World War, she lost her handbag with everything, the money and the papers.
And she had three little children and an old woman with her and no food.
And she lost or somebody steal it, and the money was away.
The papers were away.
And the, the of awe papers.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, the, the identification Doc.
Gitti Berkhoff: Identification,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: And then she, they were all in danger and maybe killed.
And then she, she was, she had the only option to.
Sell her body to the soldiers, to the soldiers, that they
don't kill them and the kids.
And from that, she was, when she went in trouble searching her, her handbag and
then sitting there and crying and not be alone and following in her world,
that means that validation is not to discuss and telling people, no, it's
not right how you feel that, and it's long time ago, and now we are here.
It's to follow into this feelings and then give them the the feel feeling to,
to talk about like a good friend and to be not alone and let the tears come
and then she could come down and, yeah.
And I, I don't know.
How did you find
Rupert Isaacson: out the backstory about.
What had happened to her in the war?
Did she tell you or did someone who knew her tell you?
Gitti Berkhoff: Nobody knew.
She told Okay.
Nobody knew that.
She never talked about that.
She was traumatized and she was, she, she had her speak, but sometimes you don't
have people with the opportunity to speak.
She had it.
And when they get into this feeling, they get really, sometimes really not demand
Rupert Isaacson: Totally.
How they come back to clarity.
Yeah.
To lucidity in,
Gitti Berkhoff: in this feelings.
Sometimes.
Not always.
Sometimes, and sometimes this is too much.
But if you follow and not try to get them to a point, really follow soft.
Mm.
Sometimes you can go back to trauma and, but it's, it's a bit dangerous.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
In,
Gitti Berkhoff: in this case, it was helpful.
Not all the time you have to have a bit experience with that and
to stop when it's necessary and important, more important to stop.
But it's what the, the autism children also have all the parents that somebody
comes and tries to understand and really to understand what is the feeling behind,
because the, the emotion behind behavior, behavior is always, there's always an
emotion behind when you are at the dentist and he says, you don't have to have fear.
Sorry, I have it.
It's, it's just here.
And that that doesn't help.
I need somebody who understands that I have.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Again, is, is the validation really empathy?
Again, it seems that this word keeps coming up.
Empathy, empathy,
Gitti Berkhoff: empathy, empathy, empathy, and really.
Following the feelings.
And
I believe to believe.
Yeah.
To believe Really.
To believe.
I believe you.
Yes.
Because even
Rupert Isaacson: if this is a construct of your imagination and you're seeing
snakes coming out of the wall Yeah.
To you, this is reals.
You can't, you can't say there are no snakes.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: If you say, oh my God,
Gitti Berkhoff: sometimes it, it, it's only, it's enough to ask what could help.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Wendy?
Do ask what could help you?
Gitti Berkhoff: Do they tell
Rupert Isaacson: you sometimes if you do this, this will help?
Gitti Berkhoff: Sometimes it's, it's it's a point to ask
because they lived a long life.
What did help?
What did you help?
Sometimes, and then sometimes they say praying.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: And then let's pray.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Together, we pray together
Gitti Berkhoff: and not find the solution.
If you really a problem, you don't want all the si.
So sometimes singing a lot of helping us in music to sing old songs
they have mostly from the church, something that they want to sing.
Then when we are old, we want Rolling Stones or something, but they, yeah,
this really old people now, 90 or a hundred years old, they have,
you have to know that homework.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Again, I think that very sometimes when I'm doing trainings and in our
methods, I will say they're often young people that are doing the trainings.
They're often maybe 21, 22.
Yeah.
We'll be walking in the environment and I'll say, tell me what is that
tree, or, tell me the history of this piece of land that we're walking in.
What happened here 500 years ago?
What?
And often they say, well, I don't know, or, I'm not interested in that.
I'm not interested in history, or I'm not interested in trees.
And then I'll say, well, yeah, but what if the person you are working with asks this
question then work if they're interested.
Work.
And frequently, like, I'm often not interested in, for
example, Marvel characters.
I'm, I'm, I'm not interested.
I, I'm, I'm not interested in Minecraft, but I am interested in this child and I am
interested in helping this child to talk.
So I must develop some interest.
Their interest.
So I will get on Wikipedia and I will look up some things about Minecraft
and I will, so that I can have at least the beginnings of a cocktail party
conversation while we're walking along.
And then I can say to that person, I meet you in your world, can you meet?
That's it a little bit in my world.
Gitti Berkhoff: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Again, that's
Gitti Berkhoff: the bridge.
Rupert Isaacson: The bridge.
That's always
Gitti Berkhoff: the bridge to go into the world.
And then let's see if you c can follow me into my world.
Right.
And it's yours too, but.
At that point.
But you have
Rupert Isaacson: to go first.
I, I think this is, yeah.
This is often missed by people in the therapeutic world.
It's our job.
Your job.
My job to go first into their world.
Someone's coming into your world right now.
That was it.
Gitti Berkhoff: Some, somebody's coming into my world now.
Rupert Isaacson: Is he coming to take you away?
Because I know.
I think so.
We
Gitti Berkhoff: have to go to Berlin now and to talk about horse and to meet this.
Can I tell you to, to meet Dole?
Yeah.
So tell us
Rupert Isaacson: what you're about to go do in Berlin.
Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, we, we want to go to Berlin and we have meeting
with politicians and with Mr.
David Doyle.
And In Bundestag?
In Bundestag?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
In the parliament.
In the Parliament.
What are you doing?
Tell us.
Gitti Berkhoff: Henry,
it's, it's in Berlin.
It's a parliament ca
horses about horses, and they meet.
David Doyle and he can tell about his concept in Ireland, in Li Kin and
that the government in i in Ireland is
Rupert Isaacson: they support
Gitti Berkhoff: supporting that with money.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Gitti Berkhoff: And
is coming there.
And a lot of people, they want to talk about the.
The, the value of horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
The, the, the value, the social value of the horse.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
And, and what is, they are more than sport horses or therapy horses or, okay.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: This is fascinating.
Tish
Gitti Berkhoff: is breeding.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
And what is, what about nature and what about living people and
working and clients are working like at David's place, you know?
Wow.
And we want to bring this idea to Berlin, to the parliament.
Wow.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
This is extraordinary
Gitti Berkhoff: today.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So we need to give a little bit of background here for some listeners, if you
haven't heard of David Doyle in Ireland.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You need to go on Google right now.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And type in David Doyle.
Lisett, L-I-S-K-E-N-N-E-T-T.
That farm has pioneered our equine assisted work to the point that he
proved to the Irish government that over five years he could work with the
most violent, difficult young adults who needed up to four minders with them.
And through our methods, he could bring that number of minders down to one, which
saved the government about one and a half million euros per client per year.
And of course, not only does this happen through joy and.
Healing.
But of course, from a government point of view, they're interested in
money, they're interested in numbers.
David Doyle is too shy to come on this podcast, although I'm hoping
that one day we will be able to get him on to talk about his work there.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, and as he, he was the one who's pioneered the work in Ireland
to be now underwritten by government.
So they now pay for horse boy movement method.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
And now we are allowed waiting
Rupert Isaacson: for a knock on effect in the eu.
So how did you manage to get David Doyle to the German parliament now?
Gitti Berkhoff: Ooh, analyst, do you want to tell this?
Because we have the problem that our train is going in.
Rupert Isaacson: You know what?
You know what?
Don't worry about it.
We are going to have a follow up episode.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
When you come
Rupert Isaacson: back from Berlin, we're going to do this again.
Gitti Berkhoff: Okay.
And then tell about he was, I wanna know the story was, was
David Doyle in, in, in Berlin?
Then we can talk what happened.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Gitti Berkhoff: And yeah, it's, I'm, I'm excited to, to be, to go there.
Rupert Isaacson: So this is extraordinary, viewers and listeners.
So what GIS saying is we have to end the
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Interview now gi 'cause we've got bored.
GI and husband can get on a train.
Yeah.
He's the Irish, he's rejected now to the German parliament to
basically get the German government to support equine assisted work.
This is incredible, guys.
Absolutely incredible.
Will you come on?
How long, when do you come back from Berlin?
Henrich Berkhoff: On Tuesday afternoon.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So we need to do round two of this interview then.
Yeah.
We'll do a second installment and we need to know what happened.
Henrich Berkhoff: Yes, of course.
It is a good, nice thing.
Today we have a meeting with Clarissa.
She's also there.
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
She's coming with us.
Henrich Berkhoff: This is another
Rupert Isaacson: person that we need to get on the show.
Absolutely.
Henrich Berkhoff: Absolutely.
And the, what is so successful is a method.
Okay.
But the people and the all the tribe, we are together, all this
people have the same thinking and they have the same ideas.
Hey, they see what can happen if we stay in nature of this in movement
Gitti Berkhoff: and everybody can have a toilet brush at home to the toilet brush.
Use it in a different way.
Are you gonna take a
Rupert Isaacson: toilet brush to the, to the German parliament and interview
them and throw toilet water on them?
Henrich Berkhoff: Not in the first round, but
Rupert Isaacson: maybe when you get to know them better.
Yeah.
Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Well
Rupert Isaacson: listen guys, in that case, I don't want to keep
you go and do this important
Gitti Berkhoff: catch the train now
Rupert Isaacson: and we will do round two of this interview when you get back.
Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.
Gitti Berkhoff: Thank you for having us.
Rupert Isaacson: Best of luck lads.
Henrich Berkhoff: We, we sent a picture tomorrow evening from
the Irish pub in Berlin Okay.
For you.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Don't have any fun.
Yeah,
Henrich Berkhoff: no, it's never, it's always work.
Gitti Berkhoff: Main rule.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Alright, well in that case, I'm going to stop the record button and say
goodbye and thank you so much for coming on and good luck in the Parliament
and we will find out what happened.
Henrich Berkhoff: Bye bye.
Bye bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
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