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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Okay, I've got Gitty Berkhoff here
on Equine Assisted World today,

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and Gitty is one of my heroes.

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She is a mother of a special needs young
man who's now doing incredibly well.

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But the story of how she and her husband
Henrik got there, you need to hear.

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And she now runs one of the best
equine assisted practices I've

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ever seen in the center of Germany.

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And also has a livery yard that
runs as what they call an active

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style, where the horses all live
out in a very interesting system.

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So she sort of wears all
these different hats.

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And in, when it comes to the
cutting edge of equine assisted

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stuff, gitty really is a mentor.

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And is someone who, if I was in
your shoes, listeners and viewers,

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I would be reaching out to her for
mentorship and training, and you'll

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see why as we proceed with this.

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So thank you for coming on, gitty.

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Can you tell us a little bit about
who you are and how you evolved to

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the practice that you currently have?

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Gitti Berkhoff: Yes, of course.

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Thank you for having me here and to give
me the opportunity to, to tell the story

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of my husband and me and our son Julian.

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And it's, it's interesting because
something is near to the story you

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had with Rowan and maybe that touched
us and Yes, it, it, it showed us

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that other people have nearly same
stories or different stories, but the.

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The important things are the same
and, and bring stones to, stones

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rolling and, and it goes on.

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And we had an, an
interesting way with our son.

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It started from, I was working as a
nurse later than teacher for nurses.

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And Henry, my husband and me
met each other and married were

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very, yeah, fresh, married.

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Can, can we say that?

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

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Newlywed we would say.

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Gitti Berkhoff: Okay.

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Yeah.

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And then we notice, okay, I'm
pregnant, I am there's a child on

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his way and they said in the middle
of the pregnancy that Julian is.

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Not really healthy, that
he's disabled him, that they

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don't know if he can survive.

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And all the med medicine specialists
said, you don't have to to, to get

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this child, you have to do an abortion.

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Is that the right term?

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Mm-hmm.

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And we knew no, when I,
I cannot survive that.

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I, I cannot.

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This child belongs to us and
we have to go the way with him.

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As long as it needs, he needs us.

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Maybe he will not survive,
but we don't want to take part

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of his life away from him.

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Julian was born in 2002 and he had
really a lot of complications and

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were, he was fighting for his life.

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We did the same, we were parents
fighting 24 hours for his life.

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And some years later when he was more
stable and not so much in danger all the

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time, and life went normal ways, it felt
a bit more normal than in the beginning.

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I thought when he, I think when he was
four years old, what about riding therapy?

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And we live on a farm here and we had
ponies from my father-in-law, but they

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were not so such educated that I could put
my disabled sensitive child on, on them.

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And yes, I searched riding therapy,
but that was, yeah, not bad.

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But I felt there's more, there's more
possible than sitting on a horse going

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round by round, doing some games.

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Yes.

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That's nice.

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All the time when horses meet children,
it's nice, of course, but I thought

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there's more possible than that.

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And I started to, to figure out is, is
there a way for much more education or

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more magic between horse and children?

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And I found some horsemanship concepts
and started to work with Julian and

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sometimes families with other disabled p
children came and asked for the same and.

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That was, yeah, the beginning of working
with children and horses and I never

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said I'm doing therapy or something,
but it happened that families came

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here and started paying for that.

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Okay.

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Yes, horses are expensive animals.

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Sometimes you need money.

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And there, there was a bit pressure
when parents come and think, the

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children have to go on the horse.

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We pay you for riding lessons.

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And I, I said all the time, no,
I'm not doing riding lessons.

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I want to figure out what the children
need and what is the right magic.

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Education and development for
the, for the children in nature.

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And there was always a, a, a bit conflict.

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And then something happened really
interesting in I look at the date it was

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2017, Henry had the idea to send me to a
program in a town in, in Germany, Lingen.

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And there was a presentation from Horse
Boy Method and I didn't know what Horse

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Boy method, what the hell is that?

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Okay, you, you paid for this?

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I go, but I'm tired.

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I had a really hard week and now this
week going to Zolin and listening to

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some people, I don't know, talking
about whatever, okay, I'm going there.

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And then it, it took I
think not, not an hour.

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And I was really inspired
from everything I heard there.

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Horse boy method.

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I called my husband and
said, I have to learn that.

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That's so incredible.

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I have to learn that there's
so much science behind.

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I have to learn.

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But there's no, no place
in Germany at this time.

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We can learn that maybe I have to go to
Texas, but that's, that's not possible.

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And when I came home, he said, why not?

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Of course you can go to Texas.

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I, I thought he's really totally crazy
now because our farm, the disabled child,

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my mother was really ill at that time.

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I had to take care of her and there was
so much work I couldn't imagine to go from

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this farm and my family and my child's.

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And then we planned that
and went together to Texas.

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In 2018, in January, we were in Texas
not really knowing what we are doing.

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We were there and did
Horse Boy from one to four.

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Rupert Isaacson: I remember it well, and
I, you know, I remember thinking, wow,

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these people, they're really serious.

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But of course I had met you do you
remember back in the winter of 2017 in

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Germany And I had been out to your farm
and I'd met Julian and your son and I'd

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seen the operation that you were running.

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And I remember thinking, I don't think
this lady needs to learn anything from me.

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She's clearly doing an amazing job, but.

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Of course what you've developed
since 2018 is even more amazing.

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But before we go there, could you
take us back to when Julian was born?

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You've told us he was disabled and you've
told us that his life was in danger.

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Let's have some more detail.

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What was the disability?

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Why was his life in danger?

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What did you need to do
to bring him outta danger?

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Can you tell us this story please?

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'cause it will, I will really
help people to understand.

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Gitti Berkhoff: Mm.

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When I was pregnant, they
found out was ultrasound.

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What is the name in English?

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Ultrasound.

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Yeah, ultrasound That there
is, open space in his back.

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We call it spina bifida.

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Rupert Isaacson: Spina bifida.

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Right.

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Gitti Berkhoff: And Cephas Hydrocephalus.

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Rupert Isaacson: Hydrocephalus.

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Yes.

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We have water in the, in the water.

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On the brain.

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Yeah.

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Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

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And it was, hmm, terrible because they
said maybe he will die before he's

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born, or he will die when he's born.

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Why did they

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Rupert Isaacson: think he would die?

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From the cephalitis or
from the spine is not.

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'cause there's

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Gitti Berkhoff: some, you know,
the cline here the small brain, the

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small part of the brain was too deep.

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And in this area of the,
the cerebellum was too deep.

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Yeah.

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Cerebellum was too deep.

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Much too deep.

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And there was pressure on we
call it h stem, the first part.

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Yeah.

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The brainstem.

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Yeah.

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Brainstem was breathing.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Gitti Berkhoff: Swallowing.

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Rupert Isaacson: Ah,

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Gitti Berkhoff: and when there's too
much pressure, you can't breathe.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Gitti Berkhoff: And it got, it got during
the pregnancy deeper and deeper, and the

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pressure was too high and that you could
see there was so much water in the head.

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Then yeah, at that point they,
they started with surgeries

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during, while pregnancy unborn
children to, to give a surgery.

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Now they do it, all of the
children get the surgery

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Rupert Isaacson: inside the mother.

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In,

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Gitti Berkhoff: inside the mother.

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Yeah.

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At that point was the beginning of that.

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And the specialists said if you do
that, yes, that can help, but about 50%.

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Get into abortion to, to,
or much too early born.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Gitti Berkhoff: And that then you
have more problems because of the

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Too early born, the premature birth.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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And we, we didn't want to do that.

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And our profess neuro, your

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Rupert Isaacson: neurosurgeon,

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Gitti Berkhoff: neurosurgeon said,
no, let it go like it is, and then

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we will do that when he's spawn.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Gitti Berkhoff: That this water
drain system after he was born.

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But the problem with breathing
was from the beginning.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Gitti Berkhoff: And he
had a lot of p pneumonia.

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Pneumonia because the swallowing,
he, he bruised his fruit and milk

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and something, and then he had

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Infection of, of the brain.

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Okay.

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From the problems.

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And the breathing went more
worth and worth and worth.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Gitti Berkhoff: And then, yeah.

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So

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Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

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What did you do to retrieve the situation?

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So if this situation is getting
worse and worse, now you

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have infection in the brain.

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Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: What do
you do in this situation?

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Gitti Berkhoff: I started
praying and beaten.

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Yeah.

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You know, praying.

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Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: Praying.

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Absolutely.

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And

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Gitti Berkhoff: then when he was, it
was so bad that we thought the next

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surgery, maybe he cannot survive that I.

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I was at on a point that I thought I,
I break with everything because yeah,

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I, I accepted when I was pregnant.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

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Gitti Berkhoff: And I
couldn't understand why.

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I accept and we go this way
and then he dies after that.

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I couldn't understand.

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But he didn't.

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

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He did not die.

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He

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Gitti Berkhoff: didn't.

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He is, he survived.

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And then was a moment when a young
doctor and me, we, we had a lot

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of nights sitting there with him,
and the crisis was really hard.

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It was really a, a, a big crisis.

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And then Yuan got a bit better and this
young man came in and Yuan was on, on

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the, on the table to to, to be he wanted
to see him and to check everything.

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And he saw him and the face
got wha and started crying

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because he didn't know this man.

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And we noticed, oh, his brain is okay.

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He can he can make a difference
between mommy's face and this man.

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I don't want to have this man on my body.

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And he said, no.

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And this doctor and me, we, we were
so happy to see that Julian can make

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the difference between these two faces
that we'd call it in German stren.

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This was a not he was not used to this
person, and he said, no, no, no, no, no.

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And that was really a, a wonderful
moment to see that he's, he's

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maybe he, he has not so much

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Rupert Isaacson: brain damage.

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Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

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Brain damage from that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And then, so it went be better and better.

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And then we started

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Rupert Isaacson: life.

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How many surgeries did
Julian have to have?

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Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, there were time.

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I knew that exactly, but in the
first two years of his life, I

00:15:34.070 --> 00:15:42.350
think he had nine or 10 surgeries
and different stuff from the brain.

00:15:42.350 --> 00:15:46.670
Then he had problems with the
drain system in his belly,

00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.190
and that made other problems.

00:15:49.190 --> 00:15:53.000
Then it was broken more than one time.

00:15:53.750 --> 00:15:59.070
Nobody knew from, from, growing and
then he got, his body got longer

00:15:59.070 --> 00:16:01.530
and then it was disconnected.

00:16:02.730 --> 00:16:03.840
Well, yeah.

00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:07.860
And the was sometimes a big problem.

00:16:07.860 --> 00:16:16.000
Then he had five, about 41 degrees
cel you and the next surgery.

00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:16.795
Yeah, 41.

00:16:16.855 --> 00:16:17.075
Wow.

00:16:17.105 --> 00:16:17.395
Yeah.

00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:18.040
41.

00:16:18.160 --> 00:16:19.750
And then you get into the surgery.

00:16:21.340 --> 00:16:21.700
Rupert Isaacson: Crazy.

00:16:21.970 --> 00:16:22.480
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:23.470
That was really crazy.

00:16:23.470 --> 00:16:27.160
And you have to give that
child away on the door.

00:16:27.190 --> 00:16:29.500
You cannot wait until he is sleeping.

00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:35.645
And that was really like
to give it to, to, to some

00:16:36.905 --> 00:16:37.125
Rupert Isaacson: hmm.

00:16:38.305 --> 00:16:38.925
Gitti Berkhoff: To somebody.

00:16:39.730 --> 00:16:40.180
Well, yeah.

00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:40.930
Killing him.

00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:46.930
Rupert Isaacson: So for the
listeners and viewers, who, if

00:16:46.930 --> 00:16:49.240
you just take a moment to think.

00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:54.570
What this means as a parent
because of course giddy, you

00:16:54.750 --> 00:16:56.610
did not just have one child.

00:16:57.450 --> 00:16:57.510
Gitti Berkhoff: No,

00:16:57.840 --> 00:16:58.860
Rupert Isaacson: you have three boys.

00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:03.000
And so you also had to be a mother.

00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:03.930
Yeah.

00:17:03.930 --> 00:17:07.890
To the young ones coming while
dealing with all of this.

00:17:08.430 --> 00:17:11.490
And I know that Henrik, obviously
you, your husband Henrik, is

00:17:11.550 --> 00:17:13.020
also one of my great heroes.

00:17:13.650 --> 00:17:20.370
But nonetheless, this was extremely
difficult and you are working

00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:22.650
and you are doing all this stuff.

00:17:23.190 --> 00:17:27.300
I think for many people, the idea of

00:17:29.340 --> 00:17:38.370
on top of this to then start
a therapy practice for other

00:17:38.910 --> 00:17:40.650
people in your position.

00:17:41.535 --> 00:17:43.845
For many of us, this would be too much.

00:17:45.465 --> 00:17:51.285
Even after some years I know
that the surgeries continued.

00:17:52.155 --> 00:17:57.315
I know, okay, maybe they were
more spaced out, but nonetheless,

00:17:57.315 --> 00:17:58.755
this was, this is heavy.

00:18:00.165 --> 00:18:09.375
How did you find the energy and the
will, the willpower, the desire to

00:18:09.405 --> 00:18:15.825
then offer what was working for you
with the horses to other people?

00:18:15.855 --> 00:18:22.185
Because I think a lot of us would
say, if you had only served your

00:18:22.185 --> 00:18:24.645
son, this would have been enough.

00:18:24.645 --> 00:18:25.035
Enough.

00:18:25.125 --> 00:18:26.115
Enough, right?

00:18:26.145 --> 00:18:26.325
Yeah.

00:18:26.415 --> 00:18:29.415
But you didn't, you went this extra.

00:18:29.625 --> 00:18:29.955
Why?

00:18:30.045 --> 00:18:30.705
Why?

00:18:31.215 --> 00:18:34.485
Gitti Berkhoff: It's very easy, you know,

00:18:36.525 --> 00:18:38.590
horses give energy, give you energy.

00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:39.060
Mm.

00:18:39.870 --> 00:18:45.240
And when I was really tired from not
knowing when it's night, when it's day Mm.

00:18:45.750 --> 00:18:51.390
All always in a, in a circle
of doing stuff for yu.

00:18:51.870 --> 00:18:57.540
And when I had one hour sometimes,
then I hopped on a horse on

00:18:57.540 --> 00:18:59.340
a pony from my father-in-law.

00:19:00.210 --> 00:19:03.240
And that gave me the energy.

00:19:03.840 --> 00:19:07.560
And that was, maybe I, I
never thought about that.

00:19:07.560 --> 00:19:12.930
But there was a point that you said,
we, we all have a, a little trauma.

00:19:13.470 --> 00:19:13.560
Mm-hmm.

00:19:13.620 --> 00:19:14.070
Yeah.

00:19:14.580 --> 00:19:21.550
I, I forgot that that was I think
it was a trauma all this, but the

00:19:21.550 --> 00:19:27.370
energy from, to go out in nature and
to be with the horses was so big.

00:19:27.375 --> 00:19:27.775
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:28.360
Gitti Berkhoff: And.

00:19:29.305 --> 00:19:30.565
Always in my life.

00:19:30.595 --> 00:19:37.075
I think if you have something, what makes
you happy and you share it, then it gets

00:19:37.075 --> 00:19:44.865
more, that gives you more, you you become
something back more than you gave away.

00:19:45.645 --> 00:19:54.015
And to share this, this luck with
be able to be with horses, that was

00:19:54.015 --> 00:20:00.705
always something like a motor or
something, the energy to, to share.

00:20:00.705 --> 00:20:02.715
Then I can feel what I have.

00:20:03.255 --> 00:20:03.345
Mm-hmm.

00:20:03.675 --> 00:20:09.695
And I always was thankful for the,
this option to be with horses.

00:20:09.695 --> 00:20:17.855
And I told my children, my three boys,
sometimes they say, why are so many

00:20:18.065 --> 00:20:21.365
different people at our farm all the time?

00:20:21.365 --> 00:20:22.985
And I said to them.

00:20:24.365 --> 00:20:28.265
Yes, it's nice to be here
in this paradise place.

00:20:28.985 --> 00:20:36.185
And it gets more nice when you share
it, when you let other people be a

00:20:36.185 --> 00:20:43.165
part of of this and get the healing
energy on that, that gives you the,

00:20:43.435 --> 00:20:49.945
the, the option to, to grow and to,
to stay with energy and healthy.

00:20:51.325 --> 00:20:54.085
I think that was the most reason.

00:20:54.085 --> 00:20:58.615
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's, it's an
interesting viewpoint because you are

00:20:58.765 --> 00:21:05.605
right, but I don't think everybody comes
to this conclusion, and particularly when

00:21:05.605 --> 00:21:10.715
you have the level of exhaustion that
you had, there's something before we go

00:21:10.715 --> 00:21:16.235
into where Julian is now, and also your
practice now, because you, you really

00:21:16.235 --> 00:21:18.755
have a unique practice that I want you to.

00:21:19.610 --> 00:21:24.200
Tell us about the, I just want
you to talk a little bit about

00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:28.010
your background as a nurse mm-hmm.

00:21:28.250 --> 00:21:32.990
Before Julian came into the world,
because I think this has also really

00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:35.510
helped your practice and I think, yeah.

00:21:35.660 --> 00:21:39.110
There's something I've learned a lot from
you because of this previous background.

00:21:39.710 --> 00:21:47.060
So tell us what kind of nurse
were you and how has this

00:21:47.360 --> 00:21:50.120
informed your current practice?

00:21:51.980 --> 00:21:52.130
Gitti Berkhoff: Yes.

00:21:52.220 --> 00:21:56.540
I was a young nurse when
I worked as a nurse.

00:21:56.570 --> 00:21:56.780
I.

00:21:57.605 --> 00:22:00.845
Was normal on the, in
the hospital working.

00:22:00.875 --> 00:22:06.115
And then I started to work
with a special patient.

00:22:07.435 --> 00:22:08.100
Patients, yeah, yeah.

00:22:08.100 --> 00:22:12.240
Patients with stroke, with dementia.

00:22:12.810 --> 00:22:12.840
Okay.

00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:19.310
And disabled mentally or with
brain injuries, brain injuries

00:22:19.310 --> 00:22:21.850
and, and sensitive problems.

00:22:22.180 --> 00:22:22.300
Okay.

00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:28.760
And from that later, I, I was, years
later, I was a teacher for nurses.

00:22:28.760 --> 00:22:28.850
Mm-hmm.

00:22:29.300 --> 00:22:36.630
And had this team, and this
teams was my, my biggest oh man.

00:22:37.530 --> 00:22:38.580
What minor?

00:22:39.975 --> 00:22:44.685
And my biggest interest to
teach about strokes and people

00:22:44.685 --> 00:22:46.755
with stroke and dementia.

00:22:47.715 --> 00:22:49.545
Rupert Isaacson: Why were
you so interested in strokes

00:22:49.545 --> 00:22:50.685
in dementia and the brain?

00:22:52.185 --> 00:22:53.265
Gitti Berkhoff: Good question.

00:22:54.825 --> 00:22:56.745
Because yeah, there, yeah.

00:22:56.985 --> 00:22:57.795
Good question.

00:22:58.515 --> 00:23:02.025
I always told my students

00:23:02.265 --> 00:23:02.385
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

00:23:02.985 --> 00:23:09.535
Gitti Berkhoff: That when people are
with, in province with self sensory,

00:23:10.645 --> 00:23:13.255
it's important what your hands do.

00:23:13.795 --> 00:23:13.975
Mm-hmm.

00:23:14.035 --> 00:23:20.375
And there's a lot of stress in
this area, in this job of nursing.

00:23:20.735 --> 00:23:24.575
And you have to run and you are
always in trouble with the time and

00:23:24.665 --> 00:23:28.415
less people and too much work, but.

00:23:28.850 --> 00:23:35.000
How you speak, how you talk to people, how
you touch them the sensory of your hands.

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.280
That's what I am.

00:23:37.520 --> 00:23:42.470
And you are, and nobody
can, can take that from you.

00:23:42.470 --> 00:23:48.280
What, what you can give with the hands
and this people that demand or with

00:23:48.280 --> 00:23:54.580
stroke and sensory issues, they need the
sensory of your hands and of your heart

00:23:54.580 --> 00:23:56.980
and your soul and and that's they need

00:23:56.980 --> 00:23:57.520
Rupert Isaacson: touch.

00:23:57.640 --> 00:23:58.150
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:23:58.900 --> 00:24:01.000
Touch from and love from here and love.

00:24:01.030 --> 00:24:01.390
Yeah.

00:24:02.320 --> 00:24:07.630
And that was, I, I think that was
touched me and my mother later

00:24:07.630 --> 00:24:10.150
had a Parkinson and a stroke too.

00:24:10.150 --> 00:24:10.725
And Okay.

00:24:10.990 --> 00:24:14.200
I could help her a lot
with all this knowledge.

00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:19.850
And I had a lot of touch to a
lot of time with dying people.

00:24:19.895 --> 00:24:19.985
And

00:24:20.660 --> 00:24:20.950
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:24:21.455 --> 00:24:25.725
Gitti Berkhoff: And keeping them
helping the way when they have the

00:24:25.725 --> 00:24:28.995
last part of their life and all.

00:24:28.995 --> 00:24:33.715
This was my, my favorite yeah.

00:24:33.715 --> 00:24:34.555
Profession.

00:24:35.125 --> 00:24:41.545
And I was teaching a lot of this stuff
and to have the children with disabled

00:24:42.115 --> 00:24:47.655
in at my place on the farm and with
horses, that was often that families

00:24:47.655 --> 00:24:52.645
came and said they don't want to put
this child on a horse because it could

00:24:52.645 --> 00:24:55.795
have precise epilep, unfi, epilepsy.

00:24:55.795 --> 00:24:55.915
Yes.

00:24:55.915 --> 00:24:56.275
Could have an

00:24:56.275 --> 00:24:57.145
Rupert Isaacson: epileptic fit.

00:24:57.235 --> 00:24:57.415
Yeah,

00:24:57.475 --> 00:24:57.895
Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.

00:24:57.895 --> 00:25:00.085
Or spastic or something.

00:25:00.595 --> 00:25:04.715
And I did something that, you know,
it's kinesthetic, it's the kind of

00:25:04.985 --> 00:25:11.695
move bodies without carrying like
this this is carrying and let's the

00:25:11.695 --> 00:25:14.065
body fly, or I can take this bottle.

00:25:14.545 --> 00:25:15.145
It's better.

00:25:15.715 --> 00:25:20.935
You can make this or you can
say, okay, let's, let's roll,

00:25:21.205 --> 00:25:24.465
let's have other movements.

00:25:24.675 --> 00:25:30.945
And that's good for the brain and for
everything and all this can go hand in

00:25:30.945 --> 00:25:33.495
hand with the, the idea of horse boy.

00:25:33.915 --> 00:25:34.275
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:25:34.530 --> 00:25:37.795
Gitti Berkhoff: And with
it's not riding therapy.

00:25:37.825 --> 00:25:40.075
I'm not a therapist.

00:25:40.675 --> 00:25:45.625
I try to bring horses with
good education and trust into

00:25:45.625 --> 00:25:48.415
human, to people and children.

00:25:48.595 --> 00:25:51.505
They need this magic from their bodies.

00:25:51.835 --> 00:25:57.595
And I can combinate all this with
movement, with sensory work, with

00:25:57.645 --> 00:26:05.565
good, educated horses and a lot of
fun and and crazy stuff together with

00:26:05.565 --> 00:26:08.925
a lot of families and children and.

00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:09.060
Yeah,

00:26:10.020 --> 00:26:12.720
Rupert Isaacson: well, I've seen the
fun and the crazy stuff and one of my,

00:26:12.780 --> 00:26:21.450
one of my most cherished experiences
in my professional life has been taking

00:26:21.450 --> 00:26:25.620
Julian, your son out Fox hunting.

00:26:25.950 --> 00:26:26.100
Yeah.

00:26:26.760 --> 00:26:29.970
And this is something I
never thought we would do.

00:26:29.970 --> 00:26:33.330
And before the listeners all
scream and say, oh, you can't

00:26:33.330 --> 00:26:35.490
go killing foxes, don't worry.

00:26:35.790 --> 00:26:37.650
We don't do that.

00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:40.890
We are following a pre
laid scent with hounds.

00:26:41.380 --> 00:26:42.850
No fox is involved.

00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.800
However, the trappings, the
outward pageantry is the same.

00:26:48.130 --> 00:26:52.480
And of course, I grew up with this
and loving the sense of freedom.

00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:58.060
And it had always struck me as a
little bit sad in the therapeutic

00:26:58.270 --> 00:27:04.810
riding world that the experiences
always had to be so controlled because.

00:27:05.815 --> 00:27:08.605
That's not what feeds the human soul.

00:27:08.875 --> 00:27:12.175
What feeds the human soul
is adventure and nature.

00:27:12.655 --> 00:27:20.305
And when you agreed to help us set up
these special needs hunting days mm-hmm.

00:27:20.755 --> 00:27:24.685
With a, with a real pack of hounds
and laying the sensor that the

00:27:25.895 --> 00:27:29.615
riders, including Julian, who
listeners is still in a wheelchair,

00:27:29.615 --> 00:27:30.875
but doing incredibly well.

00:27:30.875 --> 00:27:32.285
He, he has a job.

00:27:32.285 --> 00:27:38.675
He drives, he's all of that work
and all of that angst from 20

00:27:38.675 --> 00:27:40.925
years ago has, of course paid off.

00:27:41.415 --> 00:27:46.240
He's a wonderful young man and
he, he presents at conferences and

00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:48.130
flies around the world doing this.

00:27:48.130 --> 00:27:49.960
It's been a great success.

00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:57.160
But to see him in a big western
saddle in a, in hunting clothes,

00:27:57.190 --> 00:27:59.380
going out and riding across country.

00:28:00.805 --> 00:28:01.495
Like this,

00:28:01.570 --> 00:28:05.275
Gitti Berkhoff: but, but let's say
it's, it's, it has to be a safe

00:28:05.875 --> 00:28:06.295
Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

00:28:06.345 --> 00:28:06.735
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:28:06.735 --> 00:28:09.825
We did it in walk, but it is hunting.

00:28:09.945 --> 00:28:11.025
Rupert Isaacson: We did it in walk.

00:28:11.025 --> 00:28:11.035
Yeah.

00:28:11.035 --> 00:28:13.125
But nonetheless, we were crossing country.

00:28:13.275 --> 00:28:13.605
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:28:13.725 --> 00:28:15.435
Rupert Isaacson: The hounds
were working around us.

00:28:15.465 --> 00:28:16.155
Mm-hmm.

00:28:16.395 --> 00:28:22.185
And we still had to get up things
and down things and, you know,

00:28:23.085 --> 00:28:24.945
it was real, it was real riding.

00:28:25.395 --> 00:28:25.545
Yeah.

00:28:25.545 --> 00:28:33.825
The fact that you could do this and that
you could see the value of this and that,

00:28:34.155 --> 00:28:39.675
even though I think both you and I had
our hearts a little bit in our mouth, as

00:28:39.675 --> 00:28:44.955
we say in English while this was going
on, of course this could only happen

00:28:46.215 --> 00:28:52.965
because you pay such enormous attention
to the preparation of your horse.

00:28:53.025 --> 00:28:55.425
Now you've talked a little bit about.

00:28:55.905 --> 00:28:58.215
The need for a well-educated horse.

00:28:58.335 --> 00:28:58.425
Mm-hmm.

00:28:58.665 --> 00:29:01.755
But I know your horses and I know
that their level of education

00:29:01.755 --> 00:29:07.335
is something far higher than
normal in the therapeutic world.

00:29:07.635 --> 00:29:13.875
Can you talk to us a little bit about
how you prepare your horses and why

00:29:13.905 --> 00:29:15.555
you prepare your horses in this way?

00:29:17.475 --> 00:29:18.555
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, of course.

00:29:18.655 --> 00:29:25.045
We started our place here to be
a stable for people who want to

00:29:25.045 --> 00:29:27.025
rent a place for their own horse.

00:29:27.175 --> 00:29:32.505
We have 25 horses from other
people here, and we build it.

00:29:32.555 --> 00:29:38.055
And I have at the moment nine horses with
and with them I can work with children

00:29:38.355 --> 00:29:43.755
and adults and we build a stable, an
active stable that the horses can live in.

00:29:43.755 --> 00:29:45.945
Hers outside all the time.

00:29:46.335 --> 00:29:49.745
Move, have fun talk to each other.

00:29:50.450 --> 00:29:56.720
They notice a lot of things, machines
going around them, and noises and

00:29:57.350 --> 00:30:01.460
traffic, whatever people, children fire.

00:30:02.330 --> 00:30:03.350
We, what we do.

00:30:03.770 --> 00:30:09.650
And that is one part that the horses
have all their their needs and

00:30:10.250 --> 00:30:12.530
we educate them from the system.

00:30:12.530 --> 00:30:17.830
You you teach me the horse boy
training system for the horses.

00:30:17.830 --> 00:30:24.230
It, it's, it's a kind of talking, it's
a kind of horse boy and the movement

00:30:24.230 --> 00:30:28.370
for the horses movement, methods for
the horses, and we train them with.

00:30:30.155 --> 00:30:35.765
One part is crazy time that they can
play and run around with other horses.

00:30:35.765 --> 00:30:41.465
Not only one on a, a launch, but
also that we are doing longing.

00:30:41.465 --> 00:30:44.625
We do the side steps pattern lateral

00:30:44.625 --> 00:30:44.985
Rupert Isaacson: work.

00:30:44.985 --> 00:30:45.615
Yeah, lateral

00:30:45.615 --> 00:30:48.615
Gitti Berkhoff: work, because
that changes the in hand work.

00:30:48.615 --> 00:30:49.755
Changes the brain.

00:30:50.085 --> 00:30:50.325
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:30:50.355 --> 00:30:50.505
And

00:30:50.505 --> 00:30:55.305
Gitti Berkhoff: then we make them
bomb proof with every crazy ideas we

00:30:55.305 --> 00:30:57.105
can have together with the children.

00:30:57.135 --> 00:31:03.020
Mostly they have to help me to develop
the, the horses with crazy stuff.

00:31:04.965 --> 00:31:07.335
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's, it's
something to watch because I, I've

00:31:07.335 --> 00:31:12.015
watched you, you know, lunging the
horses for their top line muscle.

00:31:12.015 --> 00:31:12.105
Mm-hmm.

00:31:12.345 --> 00:31:16.155
But having the children helping
you do this, and I've watched you.

00:31:16.995 --> 00:31:20.985
Working the horses in hand to
keep them supple, like a yoga.

00:31:21.615 --> 00:31:25.125
And again, as you say, for the
brain of the horse as well, and

00:31:25.125 --> 00:31:26.625
the children helping you with this.

00:31:26.625 --> 00:31:30.525
And, and then also, as you say,
the crazy time where the horses can

00:31:30.945 --> 00:31:33.045
have a lot of fun playing in herds.

00:31:33.195 --> 00:31:37.605
But again, the children and the
young adults that you work with all

00:31:37.635 --> 00:31:40.725
participating in the care of the horse.

00:31:40.775 --> 00:31:42.125
I think this is really unusual.

00:31:42.125 --> 00:31:45.365
You don't see this in
most therapeutic bonds.

00:31:45.365 --> 00:31:51.245
There's usually a separation between
the client time, which is often very

00:31:51.245 --> 00:31:53.435
controlled and frankly a bit boring.

00:31:54.005 --> 00:31:56.645
And the work with the horse.

00:31:56.705 --> 00:32:01.205
And one of the things I love about
your place is that the people who are

00:32:01.205 --> 00:32:04.235
working the horse are often the clients.

00:32:04.355 --> 00:32:08.585
This I think is quite revolutionary.

00:32:09.665 --> 00:32:10.685
Also very practical.

00:32:11.435 --> 00:32:18.165
When you are, when you have a
horse that's educated like this the

00:32:18.165 --> 00:32:20.055
brain is good, the body is good.

00:32:20.055 --> 00:32:23.295
They can collect, they
can make good decisions.

00:32:24.435 --> 00:32:26.835
You can then of course explore.

00:32:27.525 --> 00:32:31.245
I think it would be fun if you
told us a little bit about how some

00:32:31.245 --> 00:32:34.725
of your play dates, and I'm, I'm
glad you call them play dates, not

00:32:34.725 --> 00:32:38.955
therapy sessions, because I never
yet met a child that wanted therapy.

00:32:39.285 --> 00:32:41.835
But every child I've
ever met wanted to play.

00:32:42.285 --> 00:32:47.475
I have seen really, really
creative things happening in your

00:32:48.025 --> 00:32:50.665
arenas and in your forest trails.

00:32:50.905 --> 00:32:52.855
Can you just give us some examples?

00:32:52.855 --> 00:32:57.055
Because I think people can take
inspiration for things to try at home.

00:32:57.475 --> 00:32:58.955
Can Oh, yeah, yeah,

00:32:59.215 --> 00:32:59.545
Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.

00:32:59.545 --> 00:33:04.255
And the, the most and lovely
and easiest thing everybody

00:33:04.255 --> 00:33:06.895
has to try is pillow fighting.

00:33:07.885 --> 00:33:08.665
Rupert Isaacson: Pillow fighting.

00:33:08.995 --> 00:33:09.415
Yeah.

00:33:09.415 --> 00:33:10.675
How does pillow fighting work?

00:33:11.935 --> 00:33:13.285
Gitti Berkhoff: We have old pillows.

00:33:14.095 --> 00:33:20.275
Some are strong, some are wobbly, and the
wobbly are the best because if you have a

00:33:20.275 --> 00:33:27.215
child on a horse and you will do a boring
game, like, catching a ball and you throw

00:33:27.215 --> 00:33:33.125
the ball and the ball comes to the fingers
and is pew going away, and that tells

00:33:33.455 --> 00:33:36.695
children you are not able to catch a ball.

00:33:37.925 --> 00:33:39.785
And I'm afraid of balls.

00:33:39.905 --> 00:33:44.645
In my childhood, I always had fear
about balls getting into my face

00:33:45.095 --> 00:33:47.885
and I'm too stupid to catch them.

00:33:48.395 --> 00:33:51.725
And that's what children can feel.

00:33:51.755 --> 00:33:56.075
And we started that with pillows
because you can get a pillow

00:33:56.165 --> 00:33:57.575
on your head and your face.

00:33:57.635 --> 00:33:57.935
Yeah.

00:33:57.935 --> 00:34:00.005
What about when it's a soft pillow?

00:34:00.125 --> 00:34:00.665
Why not?

00:34:00.995 --> 00:34:04.595
And when the horse gets a
pillow in the face, ah, okay.

00:34:04.595 --> 00:34:07.685
We can say sorry, but it's not really
the end of the world because it's

00:34:07.685 --> 00:34:13.085
soft and you can catch it with two
fingers if you have a soft pillow.

00:34:13.085 --> 00:34:14.255
I don't have one here.

00:34:14.775 --> 00:34:16.035
It's easy to catch.

00:34:16.035 --> 00:34:21.125
You can do a lot of funny stuff
because chi the parents sometimes

00:34:21.125 --> 00:34:22.385
stay on the, on the line.

00:34:22.385 --> 00:34:23.885
On the side and waiting.

00:34:24.230 --> 00:34:27.890
And then we take all the pillows
and say to the children, oh,

00:34:27.890 --> 00:34:30.410
let's, let's go near to the parent.

00:34:30.410 --> 00:34:33.470
And then we throw all the
pillows on Daddy or mommy.

00:34:33.860 --> 00:34:38.990
And from that moment, parents are
in, we take them in, then we run away

00:34:38.990 --> 00:34:44.750
on the horse that they can throw it
after us and they can try to throw

00:34:44.750 --> 00:34:48.440
the pillow that it's staying on the
butt of the horse or on the head.

00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.810
Or you can put it on your head.

00:34:50.810 --> 00:34:56.900
You can try to to, to ha to get
it on the butt of the parents.

00:34:57.830 --> 00:34:59.420
And that gets the most points.

00:34:59.450 --> 00:35:04.490
Or you can count how often can we throw
it and it's not falling on the ground.

00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:07.250
And we can do it like a Frisbee.

00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:09.230
It's so easy.

00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:10.280
And we have a big.

00:35:11.585 --> 00:35:15.195
There are all the pillows with
different colors different

00:35:15.195 --> 00:35:17.505
kind of soft or more strong.

00:35:17.505 --> 00:35:17.595
Mm-hmm.

00:35:18.225 --> 00:35:19.185
And that's so easy.

00:35:19.665 --> 00:35:21.725
Then we do what, what,

00:35:21.845 --> 00:35:22.595
Rupert Isaacson: Sword fighting.

00:35:22.595 --> 00:35:25.595
Gitti Berkhoff: Sword fighting and Yeah.

00:35:25.655 --> 00:35:29.645
Then the children have to be careful that
they don't hit the head of the horse.

00:35:29.645 --> 00:35:30.905
Sometimes they do.

00:35:30.905 --> 00:35:35.225
Then we say something and
then we play and we do play.

00:35:35.255 --> 00:35:38.695
We play with toilet brushes,
you know, toilet brushes.

00:35:38.695 --> 00:35:38.875
Tell me

00:35:38.875 --> 00:35:40.285
Rupert Isaacson: how you
play with the toilet brush.

00:35:41.635 --> 00:35:44.005
Gitti Berkhoff: We have pee pee pots and,

00:35:44.575 --> 00:35:45.445
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, the potties.

00:35:45.925 --> 00:35:46.645
Gitti Berkhoff: Potties,

00:35:46.855 --> 00:35:47.095
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:35:47.185 --> 00:35:48.655
Gitti Berkhoff: And we put water in.

00:35:49.105 --> 00:35:49.195
Yeah.

00:35:49.195 --> 00:35:51.235
We don't, we don't tell That's water.

00:35:51.385 --> 00:35:53.395
Like the people have to think it's peep.

00:35:53.755 --> 00:35:53.935
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:35:54.355 --> 00:35:54.595
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:35:54.895 --> 00:35:58.705
And then we have the brushes and
we can put all the water on the

00:35:58.705 --> 00:36:02.395
parents, and then they scream
and run away, and then we hunt.

00:36:02.455 --> 00:36:03.265
We hunt them.

00:36:03.715 --> 00:36:04.975
Hunting parents with toilet.

00:36:04.975 --> 00:36:06.595
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's an amazing site.

00:36:06.595 --> 00:36:11.155
I've seen, I've seen your autistic
kids on horseback hunting their

00:36:11.155 --> 00:36:16.045
parents with toilet brushes, and it
looks like they're, they're, you know,

00:36:16.045 --> 00:36:20.375
like in a Catholic ceremony with the,
with the, with the frankincense Yeah.

00:36:20.405 --> 00:36:21.125
Sensor.

00:36:21.425 --> 00:36:23.195
But instead you're doing
it with toilet brush.

00:36:23.195 --> 00:36:24.275
It's not holy water.

00:36:24.945 --> 00:36:28.245
It's pretend be water and Yeah.

00:36:28.245 --> 00:36:28.305
Yeah.

00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:31.875
The, the, the sense of anarchy and joy.

00:36:32.475 --> 00:36:32.775
Yeah.

00:36:32.825 --> 00:36:33.395
And rebel.

00:36:33.395 --> 00:36:33.695
And when it's

00:36:33.695 --> 00:36:36.815
Gitti Berkhoff: hot, when it's hot,
it's a nice rain for everybody.

00:36:37.565 --> 00:36:42.605
And you can for children in a wheelchair,
the toilet brush has a long stick and

00:36:42.605 --> 00:36:47.075
then they sit and they're small and
they can brush the main of the horse

00:36:47.075 --> 00:36:51.290
because the toilet brush is longer,
you can clean the horse with that.

00:36:52.410 --> 00:36:53.640
And it's all the time.

00:36:53.640 --> 00:36:56.580
Very funny because
people come along and say

00:36:59.430 --> 00:37:05.340
the toilet brushes and this is
really nice and gets people to

00:37:05.340 --> 00:37:08.190
communicate and ask questions.

00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:08.910
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:37:08.910 --> 00:37:14.670
I think, I think what is so often
missing is joy and, and humor.

00:37:14.670 --> 00:37:15.510
Real humor.

00:37:15.570 --> 00:37:18.600
And this sense of rebellion of
breaking rules, which of course

00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:21.210
for children, this is like oxygen.

00:37:21.690 --> 00:37:21.810
Mm-hmm.

00:37:22.050 --> 00:37:27.120
And I think particularly children
that spend a lot of their time

00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:31.920
being controlled, and unfortunately
if you are special needs, a lot

00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:33.690
of your life is quite controlled.

00:37:34.200 --> 00:37:37.770
This idea that you could
express yourself in this way.

00:37:37.830 --> 00:37:39.900
And then of course humor like this.

00:37:39.900 --> 00:37:41.010
This is perspective.

00:37:41.010 --> 00:37:47.430
When you break the rules
and you take this kind of.

00:37:48.750 --> 00:37:53.790
When you make any kind of joke, you are
seeing the situation from the outside.

00:37:54.570 --> 00:38:05.190
And I think this expands cognition because
it allows the brain to, and empathy the

00:38:05.190 --> 00:38:11.160
brain to say, okay, I need to step outside
the situation, look at the situation in

00:38:11.160 --> 00:38:14.550
perspective in order to create this humor.

00:38:15.435 --> 00:38:18.275
If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

00:38:18.275 --> 00:38:22.195
a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

00:38:22.265 --> 00:38:26.535
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:38:26.595 --> 00:38:32.175
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:38:32.770 --> 00:38:39.080
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:38:39.080 --> 00:38:41.750
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:38:41.750 --> 00:38:44.630
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:38:44.970 --> 00:38:48.240
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:38:48.735 --> 00:38:53.685
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:38:54.345 --> 00:38:55.785
It works incredibly well.

00:38:55.785 --> 00:38:57.505
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:38:58.215 --> 00:38:58.965
Check it out.

00:38:59.645 --> 00:39:03.795
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:39:03.805 --> 00:39:07.175
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:39:07.175 --> 00:39:08.925
applied in schools, in homes.

00:39:09.125 --> 00:39:14.115
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:39:14.115 --> 00:39:15.655
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:39:17.010 --> 00:39:18.290
when they're not with you.

00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:22.240
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:39:22.600 --> 00:39:25.220
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:39:25.220 --> 00:39:29.220
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:39:29.250 --> 00:39:33.540
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:39:33.980 --> 00:39:37.320
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:39:37.340 --> 00:39:41.580
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:39:41.780 --> 00:39:46.070
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:39:46.070 --> 00:39:49.370
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:39:49.370 --> 00:39:52.465
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:39:52.705 --> 00:39:57.205
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:39:57.535 --> 00:39:59.185
absolutely gives you this.

00:39:59.245 --> 00:40:02.245
Gitti Berkhoff: There's another
example for changing the perspective.

00:40:03.235 --> 00:40:07.105
Also you can do interview with toilet
brushes like a micro microphone.

00:40:07.105 --> 00:40:08.275
Yeah, that's very nice.

00:40:08.305 --> 00:40:09.115
You did some microphone.

00:40:09.115 --> 00:40:09.775
Sorry, you did one.

00:40:10.075 --> 00:40:10.495
Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

00:40:10.885 --> 00:40:13.195
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, but
there's another example.

00:40:13.645 --> 00:40:15.605
When you have your stick for.

00:40:18.080 --> 00:40:19.820
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, for
the, the the lunging, whip,

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:22.460
Gitti Berkhoff: lunging,
whip with a maybe a

00:40:22.640 --> 00:40:23.360
Rupert Isaacson: long handle.

00:40:23.600 --> 00:40:23.930
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:40:23.930 --> 00:40:27.740
There is a, a string on
the, on the end like this.

00:40:27.860 --> 00:40:28.280
Okay.

00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:30.890
The lash or this, yeah, this, this rope.

00:40:30.890 --> 00:40:31.730
This little rope.

00:40:31.790 --> 00:40:36.170
And when we go to the forest, there
are, hmm, I don't know the name.

00:40:36.170 --> 00:40:37.640
Distant, you know Clayton?

00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:38.540
Yeah.

00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:41.390
Thistles, the small distals and
the small balls all the time.

00:40:41.390 --> 00:40:46.430
Staying in the, in the tie of the, ah,
no, those, and in the hair and everything.

00:40:46.610 --> 00:40:47.060
Yes.

00:40:47.110 --> 00:40:48.105
Rupert Isaacson: Burdock, burdock

00:40:48.135 --> 00:40:48.625
Gitti Berkhoff: burdock.

00:40:50.410 --> 00:40:51.310
Rupert Isaacson: Speaking of humor,

00:40:51.580 --> 00:40:54.490
Gitti Berkhoff: oh, this is, can you
bring me a toilet brush later please?

00:40:55.690 --> 00:40:55.910
Would be possible.

00:40:55.910 --> 00:40:56.110
That would be, yes.

00:40:56.110 --> 00:40:56.260
We

00:40:56.260 --> 00:40:58.090
Rupert Isaacson: could, if we could
see a little toilet brush interview,

00:40:58.090 --> 00:40:59.345
that would be, I think, quite helpful.

00:40:59.745 --> 00:41:01.630
Gitti Berkhoff: I, I need
a toilet brush enthusiast.

00:41:01.630 --> 00:41:02.320
One in the

00:41:02.370 --> 00:41:02.475
the horse.

00:41:05.130 --> 00:41:05.910
And yes.

00:41:05.910 --> 00:41:12.450
And I went to the forest and all the time
in this string of my lung lounging whip.

00:41:12.900 --> 00:41:13.200
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.

00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:13.560
Gitti Berkhoff: The whip.

00:41:14.340 --> 00:41:16.620
There were this distills in.

00:41:16.890 --> 00:41:22.600
Ah, and I was like, nah this diss and put
them away and, oh, there's another one.

00:41:23.140 --> 00:41:26.650
And then I thought, change perspective.

00:41:27.310 --> 00:41:33.160
Let's see how many distals
can hold on the string.

00:41:33.910 --> 00:41:36.070
They will fall off.

00:41:36.340 --> 00:41:37.870
No, they don't.

00:41:37.930 --> 00:41:43.660
And then you can start angling from the
horse, the whip sitting on the horse

00:41:43.930 --> 00:41:51.010
holding the whip, holding this string into
the distals and see how many can we get?

00:41:51.640 --> 00:41:52.390
Rupert Isaacson: Can you catch?

00:41:52.720 --> 00:41:52.930
Yeah.

00:41:52.930 --> 00:41:54.070
Can we catch like, like fishing

00:41:54.160 --> 00:41:56.560
Gitti Berkhoff: big fishes from Distals?

00:41:57.715 --> 00:42:02.395
Sometimes they fall on your head
and you have a really problem

00:42:02.935 --> 00:42:04.885
or into the main of the horse.

00:42:05.515 --> 00:42:11.275
It's so funny that children sit on the
horse and are fishing distance from

00:42:11.275 --> 00:42:16.315
the horse with this whip and that this
changing perspective from something

00:42:16.405 --> 00:42:21.695
that makes you angry to something that
makes you in a record you have Olympic

00:42:21.695 --> 00:42:24.095
discipline from that fishing diesels.

00:42:24.905 --> 00:42:25.295
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:42:25.300 --> 00:42:27.845
It, it, it's genius.

00:42:27.945 --> 00:42:28.725
Because very easy.

00:42:28.875 --> 00:42:30.555
It's taking frustration

00:42:30.735 --> 00:42:31.005
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:42:31.365 --> 00:42:32.955
Rupert Isaacson: And turning it into joy.

00:42:34.035 --> 00:42:34.435
Yeah, yeah,

00:42:34.900 --> 00:42:35.190
Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.

00:42:36.085 --> 00:42:37.855
Rupert Isaacson: And I, this
just isn't taught enough.

00:42:37.885 --> 00:42:42.355
I feel in the therapy world,
the importance of joy.

00:42:42.415 --> 00:42:47.365
If you are not creating joy, you're
probably creating, its opposite.

00:42:47.365 --> 00:42:47.755
Right.

00:42:48.100 --> 00:42:52.150
You're probably creating some
sort of suffering, even if

00:42:52.150 --> 00:42:53.530
that is not your intention.

00:42:54.130 --> 00:43:00.070
Because if you're not consciously
creating joy, then what are you creating?

00:43:00.430 --> 00:43:06.370
And this is something which this
conversation I is not there in the

00:43:06.370 --> 00:43:09.890
normal therapeutic trainings breaking

00:43:09.890 --> 00:43:10.550
Gitti Berkhoff: rules,

00:43:10.910 --> 00:43:12.920
Rupert Isaacson: but it's really
the most important thing, right?

00:43:12.980 --> 00:43:13.310
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah,

00:43:13.580 --> 00:43:14.060
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:43:14.750 --> 00:43:19.500
Gitti Berkhoff: We have an old toilet from
building the house and changing something

00:43:20.250 --> 00:43:22.520
and it's laying into the lost things.

00:43:22.520 --> 00:43:23.570
Place is sent.

00:43:23.750 --> 00:43:26.540
It's a, it's a hill from
sand and children can play.

00:43:27.585 --> 00:43:28.915
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
big, a big sand pit.

00:43:28.935 --> 00:43:29.795
Big sand parcel.

00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:30.170
Yeah.

00:43:30.530 --> 00:43:33.980
Gitti Berkhoff: And we
put this old toilet there.

00:43:34.430 --> 00:43:35.150
It's laying there.

00:43:35.150 --> 00:43:38.360
Sometimes we, we build
something with that.

00:43:39.080 --> 00:43:44.030
And really when we go with the children
there and there the first time here.

00:43:44.750 --> 00:43:46.970
Seeing the toilet in the sand.

00:43:48.410 --> 00:43:49.340
Parents like,

00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:59.270
and at one point all the, the kids
ask, why is there a toilet in sand?

00:44:00.050 --> 00:44:01.430
And that's communication.

00:44:01.520 --> 00:44:01.610
Mm-hmm.

00:44:02.060 --> 00:44:05.930
And then we can do silly
things with this toilet.

00:44:06.440 --> 00:44:10.350
A lot of autism children
have problems with toilet

00:44:10.350 --> 00:44:10.740
Rupert Isaacson: training,

00:44:10.740 --> 00:44:11.760
Gitti Berkhoff: toilet training.

00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.710
And then we can make a, a game with that.

00:44:13.710 --> 00:44:20.040
We can, we've thought about building
poo and putting it in and building

00:44:20.040 --> 00:44:21.090
Rupert Isaacson: poo out of wet sand.

00:44:21.095 --> 00:44:21.205
Mm-hmm.

00:44:21.810 --> 00:44:24.030
Gitti Berkhoff: Wet sand or dark get horse

00:44:24.030 --> 00:44:24.150
Rupert Isaacson: poop.

00:44:24.570 --> 00:44:25.020
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:44:25.020 --> 00:44:32.190
Horse or create dog poo or
create goat poo, human poo.

00:44:32.700 --> 00:44:38.370
And make a treasure hunt with
poo all over the farm sometimes.

00:44:40.680 --> 00:44:41.250
Okay.

00:44:41.310 --> 00:44:41.970
Thank you.

00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:48.270
Ah, here is a, a toilet brush and you
can make an interview with this horse.

00:44:48.570 --> 00:44:49.590
Hello my friend.

00:44:50.250 --> 00:44:54.180
What have you to tell us today, I think.

00:44:54.180 --> 00:44:57.210
Where is your rider?

00:44:58.080 --> 00:44:59.160
I want to see the rider.

00:45:01.965 --> 00:45:02.185
Ah,

00:45:04.950 --> 00:45:05.490
Rupert Isaacson: the crazy.

00:45:05.550 --> 00:45:06.450
A master rider.

00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:08.770
Could, could, could.

00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:12.060
This is Henrik Berkoff
who is the other half?

00:45:12.060 --> 00:45:16.220
And we're gonna be doing a,
a, a podcast with him over

00:45:16.220 --> 00:45:17.990
on live free, ride free soon.

00:45:18.420 --> 00:45:22.620
But her Ko, could you say a few words
into the toilet brush for us please?

00:45:24.120 --> 00:45:26.340
Gitti Berkhoff: Would
you say something for us?

00:45:26.910 --> 00:45:27.090
Hey,

00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:31.890
no, you can, you can tell us something.

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:35.910
Rupert Isaacson: Hi, how are you?

00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:37.380
We're, we're good.

00:45:37.380 --> 00:45:39.510
The, the toilet brush is
actually inspiring me.

00:45:39.510 --> 00:45:41.550
It makes me feel like I
need the toilet right now.

00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:45.240
Do, how has your toilet
experience been today?

00:45:45.720 --> 00:45:46.050
Berko

00:45:47.610 --> 00:45:49.410
Gitti Berkhoff: Nice time at the toilet.

00:45:50.220 --> 00:45:50.700
Henrich Berkhoff: Yes.

00:45:50.730 --> 00:45:52.440
It, it's a good time every day.

00:45:52.445 --> 00:45:52.585
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:54.840
Everybody needs that.

00:45:55.140 --> 00:45:55.440
Yeah.

00:45:55.770 --> 00:45:56.190
Henrich Berkhoff: I have to

00:45:56.190 --> 00:45:56.580
Rupert Isaacson: go.

00:45:56.640 --> 00:45:58.770
Gitti Berkhoff: Human
being is, you have to go

00:45:58.770 --> 00:46:00.360
Rupert Isaacson: to the
house where everybody goes.

00:46:00.600 --> 00:46:02.310
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, yeah.

00:46:03.690 --> 00:46:04.050
Yeah.

00:46:04.050 --> 00:46:09.420
And it's so easy to have a lot of fun
with children and break rules all day.

00:46:09.425 --> 00:46:09.705
Yeah.

00:46:09.885 --> 00:46:10.825
And yeah.

00:46:11.940 --> 00:46:13.820
And the rule is to have no rules.

00:46:15.710 --> 00:46:20.780
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what's, what
I find wonderful about that is again,

00:46:20.780 --> 00:46:28.250
I think kids that are controlled for
so much of their lives, they lose a

00:46:28.250 --> 00:46:31.340
little bit their self-respect because.

00:46:32.510 --> 00:46:35.180
They don't get a chance to push, yeah.

00:46:35.180 --> 00:46:38.540
To sell the boundaries in the
same way that normal quote

00:46:38.540 --> 00:46:40.400
unquote normal kids might.

00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:48.560
So to give them the chance to consciously
break rules continuously, like I've,

00:46:48.590 --> 00:46:53.960
I've watched your play dates going
from, as you say, massive pillow fights

00:46:53.960 --> 00:47:00.860
on horseback, including using the
little pony as a, as a hiding fort.

00:47:01.650 --> 00:47:05.940
And also with the pillow stacked up
on its butt so that you can use them

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:11.190
as ammunition and the pony stands
stock still nose his job and all your

00:47:11.190 --> 00:47:15.960
other horses going round as if they
were in battle, knowing their job and

00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:21.360
participating joyfully and safely and
these kids going after their parents and

00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:27.420
each other with the pillows to chucking
the toilet brush water to interacting

00:47:27.420 --> 00:47:29.100
with the toilet in the sand pit.

00:47:30.930 --> 00:47:36.060
You, you can see the world of, and then
going to the forest and fishing for

00:47:36.630 --> 00:47:38.160
thistles or, or, or the other things.

00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:41.850
You can see the world of these,
the minds of these children just

00:47:41.850 --> 00:47:44.100
expanding and this feeling of relief.

00:47:44.100 --> 00:47:51.150
Like at last, I can be a proper
kid at last, I can be the person.

00:47:51.660 --> 00:47:57.900
I should be not this poor person in
the wheelchair or this poor person

00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:02.040
who's a bit depressed because, you
know, I find the world confusing.

00:48:02.370 --> 00:48:03.480
It's liberating.

00:48:04.290 --> 00:48:08.370
But of course this can only happen
if you have horses that are prepared.

00:48:08.370 --> 00:48:08.430
Yeah.

00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:13.320
In the way that you prepare
them and the team that you have.

00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:14.370
One last thing.

00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:18.600
I'd like you to you to talk a little
bit about your team because this is

00:48:18.600 --> 00:48:20.880
something I think often overlooked.

00:48:23.190 --> 00:48:25.980
For anybody's mind to develop.

00:48:26.370 --> 00:48:28.110
There has to be a tribe.

00:48:28.200 --> 00:48:33.780
We are a social animal and
one person, one-to-one.

00:48:33.780 --> 00:48:38.280
It's okay sometimes, but really
we need multiple personalities.

00:48:38.550 --> 00:48:44.790
But just quickly, the toilet thing, one
of the reasons I find that so innovative

00:48:45.870 --> 00:48:53.610
is I remember when I was trying to toilet
train my son Rowan, and this took so

00:48:53.610 --> 00:49:01.020
long later when I spoke to him about
it, when he was more cognitive, he said,

00:49:01.020 --> 00:49:04.110
well, dad, I was terrified of the toilet.

00:49:04.500 --> 00:49:05.850
I was really afraid of it.

00:49:06.150 --> 00:49:13.560
And I hear this time and time and
time again from older autistic

00:49:13.560 --> 00:49:17.370
people, when they become adults,
they say, yeah, the toilet was

00:49:17.370 --> 00:49:19.950
terrifying because it had this space.

00:49:20.325 --> 00:49:23.895
You felt you were going to fall into
the space and there was this sense

00:49:23.895 --> 00:49:29.895
of shame and this sense of fear and
getting it wrong, and then you just

00:49:29.925 --> 00:49:31.725
wanted to push it away and push it away.

00:49:31.965 --> 00:49:36.795
So the idea that you could have a toilet
that you can go and make friends with

00:49:37.365 --> 00:49:37.695
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:49:37.785 --> 00:49:40.605
Rupert Isaacson: And have fun
with and play with in this silly

00:49:40.605 --> 00:49:42.795
way standing right out there.

00:49:43.185 --> 00:49:46.335
It's, it's just genius because
it takes away the fear.

00:49:46.995 --> 00:49:47.325
Mm-hmm.

00:49:49.220 --> 00:49:49.510
Yeah.

00:49:49.515 --> 00:49:54.485
So all of these good ideas that
you have do they all come from you?

00:49:55.025 --> 00:49:56.675
I, again, you do have this team.

00:49:56.675 --> 00:50:00.125
Can you talk to us about your
team and how you created the team?

00:50:00.575 --> 00:50:05.495
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, the team, the
team are different girls and some

00:50:05.495 --> 00:50:12.095
of them were, have been clients
and then came back and stood here.

00:50:12.095 --> 00:50:16.905
And I have one girl, she was
here from school practicum.

00:50:18.495 --> 00:50:20.280
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, a
practicum is an internship.

00:50:20.340 --> 00:50:22.260
Gitti Berkhoff: Internship,
a school internship.

00:50:23.010 --> 00:50:24.900
And she was really depressed.

00:50:24.900 --> 00:50:27.360
She didn't talk, you know Johan?

00:50:27.930 --> 00:50:28.770
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, I do know her.

00:50:28.770 --> 00:50:28.985
You know her?

00:50:29.045 --> 00:50:29.465
Gitti Berkhoff: Mm-hmm.

00:50:30.090 --> 00:50:31.800
And I didn't know anything.

00:50:31.830 --> 00:50:35.340
And it's a really important point
when we have a lot of children

00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:37.800
from the plaque here, tree here.

00:50:37.845 --> 00:50:44.100
And always I say, I don't want to
know everything about their diagnosis.

00:50:44.670 --> 00:50:48.000
I want them to feel
like a child on a farm.

00:50:48.390 --> 00:50:56.360
We always have ideas to develop them,
but they, I, I want them not to have

00:50:56.360 --> 00:51:01.380
the feeling they are from glass and
out of glass and I can see everything.

00:51:01.830 --> 00:51:03.120
There are children on a farm.

00:51:03.330 --> 00:51:09.810
What I have to know, I want to
know, but if not, totally important.

00:51:09.810 --> 00:51:10.590
I don't want to know.

00:51:10.590 --> 00:51:13.045
And sometimes this young people come back.

00:51:13.770 --> 00:51:19.730
And sometimes they cannot find at the
point after school, some go, don't go

00:51:19.730 --> 00:51:25.190
to school and they sit at home in their
rooms and are depressed and have no

00:51:25.680 --> 00:51:28.800
kind of no job, nothing to do, and no

00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:29.430
Rupert Isaacson: purpose.

00:51:29.430 --> 00:51:29.760
Yeah.

00:51:29.765 --> 00:51:29.905
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:51:30.330 --> 00:51:33.360
And there's no sense in all that.

00:51:33.510 --> 00:51:37.440
And sometimes they come back
and start working here, and

00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:39.030
then they are part of the team.

00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:45.620
And it's really important that that,
that the children other, no, sorry, that

00:51:45.620 --> 00:51:52.540
the, the young people who, the staff
here, everybody has his own super craft.

00:51:52.570 --> 00:51:53.350
Superpower.

00:51:53.380 --> 00:51:54.280
Superpower.

00:51:55.360 --> 00:52:01.750
And you have to see what is your
superpower and what is the child you

00:52:01.750 --> 00:52:04.120
can be, are the best to work with.

00:52:04.660 --> 00:52:05.800
And we see.

00:52:06.235 --> 00:52:11.665
Some of them are really good with the
smaller children or the older one, and

00:52:12.265 --> 00:52:19.315
we don't look what we, we cannot, we,
we always look after what, where are we?

00:52:19.595 --> 00:52:20.705
Especially good.

00:52:21.515 --> 00:52:28.805
And that makes, makes everybody
feel okay, it doesn't matter what

00:52:28.805 --> 00:52:32.195
is your superpower, but there is
one and the same with the horses.

00:52:32.675 --> 00:52:34.925
This horse is best for this job.

00:52:34.925 --> 00:52:38.525
Sometimes the horses say, oh,
I'm the right one for this job.

00:52:39.185 --> 00:52:43.715
And that's what this team has to
be the same and the children have

00:52:43.715 --> 00:52:49.645
to feel that we are good with
each other and accept what we can.

00:52:49.945 --> 00:52:51.625
Where is our superpower?

00:52:52.045 --> 00:52:52.315
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:52:53.845 --> 00:52:57.325
The big pillow fights I've witnessed.

00:52:57.385 --> 00:53:00.655
Your girls, your team, really
getting into them with the kids.

00:53:00.745 --> 00:53:01.045
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:53:01.365 --> 00:53:02.625
Rupert Isaacson: Would you say that.

00:53:03.630 --> 00:53:10.770
The majority of your team did
arrive at your place with their

00:53:10.770 --> 00:53:13.440
own mental health challenges.

00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:14.190
Yeah.

00:53:14.250 --> 00:53:20.070
And by being, I So becoming
professionals as part of your

00:53:20.070 --> 00:53:22.140
team have found their own healing.

00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:23.400
Gitti Berkhoff: Yes.

00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:29.740
Especially one girl, she
was really in a bad yeah.

00:53:31.090 --> 00:53:31.360
Yeah.

00:53:31.450 --> 00:53:32.140
Situation.

00:53:32.140 --> 00:53:33.040
Situation.

00:53:33.730 --> 00:53:41.860
And she started working and later she told
us that this was way out of her darkness.

00:53:42.080 --> 00:53:43.040
In our darkness.

00:53:43.040 --> 00:53:48.300
And yeah, she's here I
think since four years now.

00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:48.450
Mm-hmm.

00:53:50.190 --> 00:53:56.010
And yes, everybody has
his own trauma at a point.

00:53:56.130 --> 00:53:59.070
And the horses heal.

00:53:59.520 --> 00:54:08.910
The children, they come and us too,
and the staff and yeah, I think most

00:54:08.910 --> 00:54:12.550
of them got better through the work.

00:54:13.600 --> 00:54:16.930
And next week somebody
will start here working.

00:54:16.930 --> 00:54:16.960
Okay.

00:54:17.080 --> 00:54:18.520
It's really incredible.

00:54:18.610 --> 00:54:22.120
You know this man, it's
Marcos, Marvin Marcos, really?

00:54:23.290 --> 00:54:29.440
He starts, he's sitting at
home since years now, no work.

00:54:30.070 --> 00:54:32.160
And he thought about
how old does he start?

00:54:32.260 --> 00:54:35.305
I think like Yu 2022.

00:54:35.695 --> 00:54:35.985
Okay.

00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:37.600
23, 22.

00:54:39.010 --> 00:54:43.780
And Marvel specialist you have,
if you ever have a question about

00:54:43.780 --> 00:54:50.260
this Marvel and all the heroes
he knows and he's very goodish.

00:54:51.535 --> 00:54:55.795
Patient with us that yes, that when
you ask the same question again and

00:54:55.795 --> 00:54:57.835
again, no problem, he will answer.

00:54:58.855 --> 00:55:00.145
And he starts now.

00:55:00.295 --> 00:55:03.115
I think we start a bit
like collecting poo.

00:55:03.505 --> 00:55:08.545
And I, I told him, oh, when we,
when you are here, that's super,

00:55:08.605 --> 00:55:10.255
and you can drive the wheel loader.

00:55:10.255 --> 00:55:11.245
It's a machine.

00:55:13.345 --> 00:55:17.365
And he said, no, I never
did stuff like that.

00:55:17.395 --> 00:55:18.925
Do you think I can do that?

00:55:18.955 --> 00:55:21.355
I said, yes, I know.

00:55:21.595 --> 00:55:25.585
And you know that I never bring you
in trouble with questions I have.

00:55:26.395 --> 00:55:27.115
Yes, I know.

00:55:27.115 --> 00:55:28.735
He said, and he's trusting me.

00:55:28.765 --> 00:55:34.415
And at the point when he was really
little, and he came here about 10

00:55:34.415 --> 00:55:40.495
years ago, I think it was really like
a people, a, a person was view to

00:55:40.495 --> 00:55:43.015
the ground and cap puta, you know,

00:55:43.065 --> 00:55:43.515
Rupert Isaacson: a, a hood.

00:55:43.590 --> 00:55:43.830
A hood.

00:55:43.965 --> 00:55:44.805
Always covering him.

00:55:44.835 --> 00:55:46.965
Gitti Berkhoff: Always
in, in this position.

00:55:47.595 --> 00:55:54.735
And now he's really much grown up
and a person like this and started

00:55:54.735 --> 00:55:58.185
riding with a lot of safetyness.

00:55:58.185 --> 00:56:03.455
He's, he's not he don't want
to have too much action and

00:56:03.455 --> 00:56:05.075
he will start working here.

00:56:05.075 --> 00:56:05.735
Let's see.

00:56:05.735 --> 00:56:10.535
I'm really interested what will happen
now when he's starting working here.

00:56:11.165 --> 00:56:12.455
Maybe two hours a day.

00:56:13.325 --> 00:56:14.615
Better than sitting at home.

00:56:15.455 --> 00:56:16.205
Rupert Isaacson: No kidding.

00:56:16.415 --> 00:56:20.615
Now your own children are
also part of the team.

00:56:20.615 --> 00:56:21.515
I think this is Oh, yeah.

00:56:21.905 --> 00:56:23.525
Talking about and tell us.

00:56:23.525 --> 00:56:27.875
So how does Julian now
participate and Oh, yeah.

00:56:27.965 --> 00:56:29.375
'cause I know he's also working.

00:56:29.615 --> 00:56:30.815
And then your other two sons.

00:56:30.815 --> 00:56:34.985
We haven't talked about Tristan and
Yan at all, but I think we should

00:56:34.985 --> 00:56:38.645
now tell us a little bit about
how your family is integrated.

00:56:39.065 --> 00:56:43.325
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, I think
they understood that the farm is

00:56:43.325 --> 00:56:48.395
a place to give power to other
people, and it's a green care farm.

00:56:48.485 --> 00:56:50.415
And they understood that.

00:56:50.685 --> 00:56:54.375
It makes it, it gets more when we share

00:56:54.855 --> 00:56:56.925
Rupert Isaacson: what is the
concept of a green care farm?

00:56:56.925 --> 00:56:57.795
Can you explain?

00:56:58.155 --> 00:56:58.365
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

00:56:58.365 --> 00:57:07.170
That makes, it's the way to, to let
nature be a place for healing, for,

00:57:08.245 --> 00:57:14.955
for families, for children, for people,
whoever, and to, to not to only to build

00:57:15.105 --> 00:57:21.325
stakes from maybe steaks or meat or
wheat or something to eat for people.

00:57:21.325 --> 00:57:27.925
And farming, normal farming can
be, but we started to open the

00:57:27.925 --> 00:57:30.805
farm for people to, to get healing.

00:57:31.525 --> 00:57:36.415
To, to feel nature, to
experience, nature to explore.

00:57:37.735 --> 00:57:40.225
And there's a green care idea.

00:57:40.225 --> 00:57:44.875
We have tiny houses for families
that can come with their children and

00:57:44.875 --> 00:57:47.365
spend time in nature with animals.

00:57:48.475 --> 00:57:51.055
And our children started helping us.

00:57:51.905 --> 00:57:58.195
Yeah, the, the Julian is working, you
know, he's, but when he has time on

00:57:58.195 --> 00:58:02.845
weekends, and we have groups here,
people want to see the farm, he starts

00:58:02.845 --> 00:58:10.015
to explore all this from the farm
and showing the groups what we do.

00:58:10.015 --> 00:58:12.175
And he knows everything about the farm.

00:58:13.105 --> 00:58:18.235
If he could walk, walk without wheelchair,
lift, without, he would be a farmer.

00:58:18.985 --> 00:58:19.015
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?

00:58:19.105 --> 00:58:24.655
Gitti Berkhoff: But this is in
this kind, not the easiest way,

00:58:25.165 --> 00:58:27.055
but he can be a, a part of.

00:58:27.760 --> 00:58:33.760
The screen care idea makes maybe
a job for him in, in the future.

00:58:33.820 --> 00:58:34.420
Let's see.

00:58:35.020 --> 00:58:45.190
And the middle son Tristan, he is now
21 and he started studying agriculture

00:58:45.820 --> 00:58:51.940
in born in Germany and don't want
to be a farmer, but he's interested

00:58:51.940 --> 00:58:56.080
in the system, green care farm and
letting and, and you can create it.

00:58:56.200 --> 00:59:01.030
Maybe we do it with horses, maybe
they do it in a different way later.

00:59:01.930 --> 00:59:02.530
Let's see.

00:59:03.490 --> 00:59:05.950
And the youngest is, he is a young boy.

00:59:06.230 --> 00:59:11.360
He's 16 years old now and sometimes
helping with the play dates.

00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:17.220
And he's really good with young
boys with a DHD because it's

00:59:17.220 --> 00:59:22.920
a bit of his personality and
he needs a lot of movement.

00:59:22.920 --> 00:59:23.940
And we started.

00:59:24.645 --> 00:59:26.955
Let him move whenever he wanted.

00:59:28.485 --> 00:59:32.325
And this is a good place for
children like him to live on a farm.

00:59:33.465 --> 00:59:33.705
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:59:33.705 --> 00:59:37.425
It's, it's something which I think
listeners also should know where Giddy

00:59:37.425 --> 00:59:39.645
and her husband Henrik live their farm.

00:59:39.645 --> 00:59:40.785
It really is a farm.

00:59:40.785 --> 00:59:45.345
It's not just, we often say a farm with
horses when it's not actually a farm.

00:59:45.345 --> 00:59:46.905
It's just a place where we keep horses.

00:59:47.395 --> 00:59:50.575
But no, it is not only a
farm, but an organic farm.

00:59:50.905 --> 00:59:51.025
Yeah.

00:59:51.025 --> 00:59:55.765
And in fact, I believe you guys were
the first in your area to switch

00:59:56.035 --> 00:59:58.325
to completely organic farming.

00:59:58.845 --> 01:00:00.855
And it's, it's, it's a
fairly serious operation.

01:00:00.855 --> 01:00:06.225
It's several hundred acres of, of
intensive agriculture as well as forest.

01:00:06.815 --> 01:00:12.405
And you do this alongside the
the equine assisted programs.

01:00:13.095 --> 01:00:16.605
How does the farming help.

01:00:17.430 --> 01:00:22.275
Your clients understand the
world and develop in the world.

01:00:23.100 --> 01:00:30.330
Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, I notice that children
more and more are so far away from nature.

01:00:30.900 --> 01:00:34.020
They don't know that everything
you can buy in a supermarket

01:00:34.020 --> 01:00:35.995
to eat is from nature.

01:00:36.745 --> 01:00:38.280
It's coming from the land.

01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:39.900
They don't know that.

01:00:39.935 --> 01:00:40.155
Mm.

01:00:40.385 --> 01:00:43.050
They don't know that apple grow on a tree.

01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:47.190
They don't know that
chicken give us the eggs.

01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:51.750
Sometimes children really, it's
not a joke that don't know the

01:00:51.750 --> 01:00:54.240
difference between horses and cows.

01:00:54.540 --> 01:00:54.570
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:00:55.170 --> 01:00:58.110
Gitti Berkhoff: They are
here in our little town.

01:00:59.070 --> 01:01:05.610
And to get the children here, we have
sh classes, school classes here, do a

01:01:05.610 --> 01:01:11.150
bit of farming and gardening with them
and putting their hands in the earth.

01:01:11.870 --> 01:01:12.200
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:01:12.845 --> 01:01:18.485
Gitti Berkhoff: Planting something,
trees or vegetables, whatever, and

01:01:18.575 --> 01:01:26.255
that is farming to, to, to show the
children this is our planet and our food

01:01:26.255 --> 01:01:29.105
is growing here outside on the earth.

01:01:29.225 --> 01:01:35.485
And one example all the time, if you hear
what is what about the weather today?

01:01:35.485 --> 01:01:40.495
You may on the radio in the morning and
yeah, today we have some clouds, but

01:01:40.555 --> 01:01:45.865
later there's coming the sun and then
we have nice weather and 27 degrees

01:01:45.865 --> 01:01:52.705
today on the weekend, nobody and is
happy when rain is coming after long

01:01:53.005 --> 01:01:57.035
part of dry dry weeks or something.

01:01:57.575 --> 01:01:58.565
Nobody knows.

01:01:58.565 --> 01:02:00.905
It's only sunshine weather.

01:02:01.385 --> 01:02:06.510
And they, they use the water to have
the, the pool in, in the garden.

01:02:07.325 --> 01:02:10.745
Nobody knows that we have
to take care of our water.

01:02:11.525 --> 01:02:19.115
And it's so important that to the children
notice and learn outside this water, we

01:02:19.115 --> 01:02:21.875
drink it and we have to take care of it.

01:02:21.875 --> 01:02:25.365
And it's important to
that something can grow.

01:02:27.075 --> 01:02:29.355
It's not important for the farmer.

01:02:29.895 --> 01:02:33.165
It's important for everybody to have food.

01:02:33.795 --> 01:02:36.585
They don't know that that's farming.

01:02:36.645 --> 01:02:41.655
Farming is I think a lot of farmer
could start to open it for schools

01:02:41.655 --> 01:02:46.395
and for children that people get
in touch with nature and farming.

01:02:47.205 --> 01:02:49.425
Rupert Isaacson: I'm always surprised
that more farmers don't do that.

01:02:49.525 --> 01:02:50.035
Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, really?

01:02:50.485 --> 01:02:50.755
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:02:50.755 --> 01:02:55.345
You know, because also those of us
that really care about the countryside,

01:02:56.005 --> 01:03:00.325
the culture, the human culture also
of the countryside, which I think

01:03:00.325 --> 01:03:06.025
is always a happier culture than a
city culture because it's in nature.

01:03:06.625 --> 01:03:12.685
We cannot expect the population
of people who live in cities.

01:03:13.165 --> 01:03:18.475
We can't expect them to care about
the countryside or the environment

01:03:19.075 --> 01:03:20.545
if they have no contact with it.

01:03:21.385 --> 01:03:32.425
And if we are custodians of the land
and we have to open it or people will

01:03:32.425 --> 01:03:34.525
not value it and they will destroy it.

01:03:35.155 --> 01:03:38.335
This, I think, is something
really overlooked.

01:03:38.445 --> 01:03:45.565
You have dealt with this stress
from the urban kids in quite

01:03:45.565 --> 01:03:48.085
a few ways, not just the.

01:03:48.565 --> 01:03:55.255
School groups coming to your farm, but you
taking your farm to the school, can you

01:03:55.255 --> 01:03:57.265
tell us a little bit about that situation?

01:03:57.535 --> 01:04:03.095
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

01:04:03.105 --> 01:04:08.095
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

01:04:08.560 --> 01:04:09.870
of dressage training.

01:04:09.910 --> 01:04:18.480
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:04:18.550 --> 01:04:24.830
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:31.360
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:04:31.410 --> 01:04:34.180
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:04:34.240 --> 01:04:34.980
Intrigued?

01:04:35.180 --> 01:04:36.040
Like to know more?

01:04:36.910 --> 01:04:39.740
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:43.130
Check out the free introduction course.

01:04:43.690 --> 01:04:44.210
Take it from there.

01:04:44.714 --> 01:04:45.044
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:04:45.044 --> 01:04:50.654
There was a school and the principal
of the school told us, oh, we

01:04:50.654 --> 01:04:53.774
had a really hard last half year.

01:04:53.804 --> 01:04:56.794
There were one child died from cancer.

01:04:57.154 --> 01:05:03.874
And there was a, like a amok situation
with a father who was amok love.

01:05:03.934 --> 01:05:04.504
In, in, well,

01:05:04.504 --> 01:05:04.564
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:05:05.134 --> 01:05:07.299
It, it threatening basically.

01:05:07.299 --> 01:05:07.959
Yeah.

01:05:07.964 --> 01:05:08.994
And a threatening violence.

01:05:09.354 --> 01:05:10.354
A lot of fear threaten

01:05:10.749 --> 01:05:11.859
Gitti Berkhoff: a lot of trouble.

01:05:11.909 --> 01:05:16.019
The, the conflict between
Russia and Ukraine.

01:05:16.019 --> 01:05:17.039
Mm-hmm.

01:05:17.040 --> 01:05:21.639
Ukraine children and a lot of stress,
lots of violence and fighting.

01:05:21.639 --> 01:05:21.729
Yeah.

01:05:21.969 --> 01:05:22.149
Violent.

01:05:22.149 --> 01:05:22.159
Yeah.

01:05:22.159 --> 01:05:26.529
And she said, oh, could we, maybe
you can come, was one of your dogs?

01:05:26.529 --> 01:05:27.549
And we go through.

01:05:28.389 --> 01:05:34.749
Classrooms with the dog and Henry
and I, we, we thought, no, we come

01:05:34.749 --> 01:05:37.389
with the whole farm to the school.

01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:38.919
And we did.

01:05:38.919 --> 01:05:39.364
We, we.

01:05:39.369 --> 01:05:40.149
So what did you do?

01:05:40.149 --> 01:05:40.599
What did you

01:05:40.599 --> 01:05:40.809
Rupert Isaacson: bring?

01:05:41.259 --> 01:05:43.179
Gitti Berkhoff: We brought two ponies.

01:05:43.509 --> 01:05:43.959
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:05:44.109 --> 01:05:44.829
Gitti Berkhoff: Into the school.

01:05:45.309 --> 01:05:50.919
Little ponies, two goats,
three chickens, and two dogs.

01:05:51.849 --> 01:05:52.599
Hunting dogs.

01:05:52.599 --> 01:05:53.259
Big dogs.

01:05:53.259 --> 01:05:54.189
Crazy dogs.

01:05:54.849 --> 01:05:58.539
And that was 300 children.

01:05:59.049 --> 01:06:04.449
Came in groups, but not really,
not everything was organized.

01:06:05.199 --> 01:06:10.149
The children were able to
decide to make the choice.

01:06:10.209 --> 01:06:14.199
I go to the police, I go to the dogs, I
go to the chicken and to the goats, and

01:06:14.199 --> 01:06:21.214
it was in separate areas of the school
and they could they, they could teach

01:06:21.244 --> 01:06:23.704
other children how to take care of that.

01:06:23.704 --> 01:06:25.534
The chicken get not in trouble.

01:06:25.864 --> 01:06:31.384
We had our children, Tristan Jota and
Catarina, the girlfriend of Tristan

01:06:32.044 --> 01:06:38.744
Johanna, the worker of Farm Henry
and me, and we had all this areas

01:06:38.744 --> 01:06:44.234
with this different parts of animals
or the animals and the children

01:06:44.234 --> 01:06:47.174
went through all that and took.

01:06:48.104 --> 01:06:48.644
Yeah.

01:06:48.884 --> 01:06:53.024
Get, got in touch with the
animals on the, in the school.

01:06:53.024 --> 01:06:57.784
And one child in at least came
and said to me, this was the

01:06:57.784 --> 01:07:00.844
nicest day in my whole life.

01:07:02.389 --> 01:07:05.524
And really hard touching moments.

01:07:05.974 --> 01:07:08.929
And to have the, the animals, they did it.

01:07:08.929 --> 01:07:12.229
It was so, they were really great.

01:07:12.229 --> 01:07:18.609
And for example, I, I did two
ropes on every side of the dock.

01:07:19.329 --> 01:07:19.629
Yeah.

01:07:19.659 --> 01:07:23.799
One, two in the middle of the
dock, and then children, 1, 2,

01:07:23.799 --> 01:07:26.649
3, 4 children on both sides.

01:07:26.649 --> 01:07:29.289
And then was a challenge not to

01:07:31.299 --> 01:07:34.749
pull it, push, pull it, pull it,
pull to pull, not to pull the dog.

01:07:34.959 --> 01:07:35.469
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:07:35.479 --> 01:07:39.739
Gitti Berkhoff: To see what the dog will
will do and what he wants to explore.

01:07:40.099 --> 01:07:40.129
Okay.

01:07:40.129 --> 01:07:43.219
And the dog was going around the field.

01:07:43.264 --> 01:07:43.324
Ah,

01:07:44.359 --> 01:07:44.614
Rupert Isaacson: and the

01:07:44.614 --> 01:07:46.299
Gitti Berkhoff: children had to follows,

01:07:46.299 --> 01:07:49.744
Rupert Isaacson: had to stay connected
to the dog, but not interfere with him.

01:07:50.074 --> 01:07:50.284
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:07:50.284 --> 01:07:55.459
And, and I did the ropes like this, and
the dog was under, then they, right.

01:07:55.864 --> 01:08:02.164
They were the, the, ah, the tension
of the, the ropes were like here

01:08:02.224 --> 01:08:05.704
and the dog was not in trouble.

01:08:06.064 --> 01:08:06.424
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:08:06.424 --> 01:08:07.144
Not affected.

01:08:07.144 --> 01:08:08.689
If they did pull in, no, not

01:08:09.179 --> 01:08:12.634
Gitti Berkhoff: throw the dog into parts.

01:08:13.054 --> 01:08:17.734
No, the ropes were like this and the
dog was under this here, and then they

01:08:17.734 --> 01:08:25.384
couldn't, and they was so soft, they had
to take care that all the children were

01:08:25.384 --> 01:08:30.294
in, in, in this right position to, to go
where the dog wants to go in the middle.

01:08:31.644 --> 01:08:32.574
And that worked.

01:08:32.814 --> 01:08:37.174
And I had experts to say, oh,
I think the dog needs a break.

01:08:37.489 --> 01:08:41.089
Everybody stopped the dog lay
on the ground and get cuddled.

01:08:41.449 --> 01:08:44.239
And the same with the
ponies and with the goats.

01:08:44.659 --> 01:08:45.709
Not to lead them.

01:08:45.709 --> 01:08:47.479
Let's see what they want to do.

01:08:47.479 --> 01:08:52.639
Follow the pony, follow the goat,
follow the chicken, get on the ground.

01:08:52.639 --> 01:08:54.319
Be not too high for the chicken.

01:08:54.319 --> 01:08:55.399
Then they come to you.

01:08:55.399 --> 01:08:56.479
You cannot catch them.

01:08:56.479 --> 01:09:00.019
They have to come to you
and like stuff like that,

01:09:00.319 --> 01:09:00.889
Rupert Isaacson: yes, was

01:09:00.889 --> 01:09:02.329
Gitti Berkhoff: so nice and easy.

01:09:02.779 --> 01:09:07.099
The most easiest things are
often the most effective things.

01:09:08.149 --> 01:09:11.269
Rupert Isaacson: Well, anytime that
you do those types of exercise too.

01:09:11.269 --> 01:09:15.979
I think once again about this thing
about empathy and perspective taking.

01:09:16.189 --> 01:09:20.719
Yeah, and looking through the eyes
of somebody or something else or

01:09:21.139 --> 01:09:27.409
looking after the needs of something
or someone else in a way that is

01:09:28.279 --> 01:09:32.279
playful and interesting and fun.

01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:35.444
Rather than you have to do this,
you have to take care of the knees.

01:09:36.899 --> 01:09:39.599
They sound simple to do, but they're not.

01:09:39.869 --> 01:09:43.109
How do you come up with these good ideas?

01:09:43.109 --> 01:09:49.199
Because I think you don't see
this type of work very often.

01:09:49.949 --> 01:09:53.339
What makes you, where,
where does it come from?

01:09:53.339 --> 01:09:54.179
This creativity?

01:09:54.569 --> 01:09:54.809
Gitti Berkhoff: Hmm.

01:09:56.504 --> 01:09:57.029
I don't know.

01:09:57.029 --> 01:09:58.259
It's, it's in the moment.

01:09:59.369 --> 01:10:02.729
It's in the moment When I think
something is a problem, then I

01:10:02.729 --> 01:10:04.769
think, can I make a game from that?

01:10:05.429 --> 01:10:05.519
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:10:06.719 --> 01:10:09.149
Gitti Berkhoff: Can I
do this like a concept?

01:10:09.659 --> 01:10:09.779
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

01:10:10.349 --> 01:10:14.939
Gitti Berkhoff: When I get angry,
can I make a joy from that?

01:10:15.989 --> 01:10:18.989
Rupert Isaacson: So it is basically
the idea that what you are doing

01:10:18.989 --> 01:10:23.399
is you're taking every situation
that is potentially negative and

01:10:23.399 --> 01:10:25.229
you're just turning it upside down.

01:10:25.254 --> 01:10:25.474
Gitti Berkhoff: Try.

01:10:25.544 --> 01:10:25.834
Yeah.

01:10:27.299 --> 01:10:27.339
I try.

01:10:27.674 --> 01:10:27.734
Yeah.

01:10:28.634 --> 01:10:29.204
That's brilliant.

01:10:29.519 --> 01:10:30.794
It, it helps a lot.

01:10:31.939 --> 01:10:35.144
Rupert Isaacson: Did, did you always
have this personality or is this

01:10:35.144 --> 01:10:37.604
something that you learned over time?

01:10:38.894 --> 01:10:45.584
Gitti Berkhoff: Ooh, I think, Hmm,
yeah, when I was a child, yeah, maybe

01:10:46.004 --> 01:10:53.764
there was a Siri called MacGyver
Uhhuh, and this man can change every

01:10:53.764 --> 01:11:00.194
problem in he can, he can build
something, a machine from maybe on this

01:11:01.484 --> 01:11:01.904
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:11:02.149 --> 01:11:06.044
Gitti Berkhoff: And, and this,
and, and doing something with that.

01:11:06.254 --> 01:11:06.794
I dunno.

01:11:07.244 --> 01:11:07.484
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:11:07.594 --> 01:11:15.214
Gitti Berkhoff: And that's so funny to,
to, to figure out how can I find the

01:11:15.574 --> 01:11:19.534
MacGyver situation from that and Yeah.

01:11:19.534 --> 01:11:20.914
That it's, it's a game.

01:11:22.504 --> 01:11:23.134
It's joy.

01:11:24.619 --> 01:11:25.519
Rupert Isaacson: I don't know.

01:11:25.789 --> 01:11:28.039
Did, did your work with dementia?

01:11:28.309 --> 01:11:28.849
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:11:28.849 --> 01:11:30.019
Rupert Isaacson: Help
you with this somehow?

01:11:30.589 --> 01:11:31.189
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:11:31.279 --> 01:11:32.509
Interesting point.

01:11:32.959 --> 01:11:39.619
Because the dementia people, you cannot
change what they had in their life.

01:11:39.679 --> 01:11:44.209
It's long time ago, and now
they are in a situation and feel

01:11:44.209 --> 01:11:45.829
that the same happens again.

01:11:46.039 --> 01:11:46.339
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:11:46.339 --> 01:11:46.489
Then

01:11:46.489 --> 01:11:47.869
Gitti Berkhoff: you have to follow.

01:11:47.899 --> 01:11:53.329
You cannot discuss and say, no, there
is nobody who wants to kill you.

01:11:53.329 --> 01:11:54.859
You cannot discuss that.

01:11:55.189 --> 01:11:55.459
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:11:55.609 --> 01:12:01.189
Gitti Berkhoff: Because what they feel
is the truth, and that's for everybody.

01:12:01.519 --> 01:12:04.339
If I feel something, it is real.

01:12:05.059 --> 01:12:09.079
If I feel fear because
of a toilet, it's real.

01:12:09.409 --> 01:12:11.299
We cannot discuss about that.

01:12:11.344 --> 01:12:11.634
Yeah.

01:12:12.169 --> 01:12:14.419
Then we have to follow, follow.

01:12:14.419 --> 01:12:20.209
And we have to believe that the
children have to have the feeling that

01:12:20.209 --> 01:12:26.329
I believe them when they have fear
or a, an they are angry or whatever.

01:12:27.019 --> 01:12:32.989
And from that, if you accept the first
point is accept, accept it, and then

01:12:33.019 --> 01:12:36.889
let's see what we can do with, with this.

01:12:36.889 --> 01:12:40.879
And to be creative and to
break every rule you can break.

01:12:41.719 --> 01:12:46.609
Maybe that's can be the, the,
the way out or the way in.

01:12:46.639 --> 01:12:48.619
More the way in than the way out.

01:12:49.699 --> 01:12:50.179
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:12:50.179 --> 01:12:50.629
I agree.

01:12:50.629 --> 01:12:54.799
You, you've talked to me before
also about the, and I think this

01:12:54.799 --> 01:12:58.459
is what you are getting at when
you say you have to believe them.

01:12:59.199 --> 01:13:03.729
You've talked to me about validation
and the, the importance of validation.

01:13:04.029 --> 01:13:05.679
And you've talked about it both.

01:13:06.939 --> 01:13:11.919
With people with dementia and
with people with autism or a DHD.

01:13:12.309 --> 01:13:17.079
Can you tell us what you mean
by validation and how do you

01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:22.509
use it in a way that isn't just
bullshitting someone and telling

01:13:22.509 --> 01:13:24.279
them, oh, yeah, yeah, you're right.

01:13:24.279 --> 01:13:32.469
You know, how do you make this validation
something that can lead to change?

01:13:35.559 --> 01:13:36.099
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:13:37.089 --> 01:13:38.259
An example

01:13:40.899 --> 01:13:42.249
oh, let's, let's see.

01:13:42.249 --> 01:13:46.059
Which example would be the best.

01:13:47.469 --> 01:13:59.254
I had an old lady and she, she was really
in fear and very ex exhausted or, mm-hmm.

01:13:59.749 --> 01:14:00.169
Yeah.

01:14:01.354 --> 01:14:07.654
And nobody knew how to get
her more cut, feel safe.

01:14:07.684 --> 01:14:14.764
And she was running all around and asking
everybody, where is my, my handbag?

01:14:14.824 --> 01:14:16.084
I lost my handbag.

01:14:16.084 --> 01:14:19.414
And they try to give her handbags.

01:14:19.414 --> 01:14:21.214
Here is one, take this.

01:14:21.214 --> 01:14:24.064
No, it, it was, it was
never the right one.

01:14:24.844 --> 01:14:32.704
And validation meant that you don't try to
talk about, stop searching your handbag.

01:14:32.704 --> 01:14:33.454
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:14:33.544 --> 01:14:35.194
Gitti Berkhoff: And it's long time ago.

01:14:35.194 --> 01:14:35.734
What, what?

01:14:35.734 --> 01:14:37.024
There was a problem.

01:14:37.024 --> 01:14:39.754
And, and you don't, you don't
lost your hand back here.

01:14:39.754 --> 01:14:40.294
Is it?

01:14:41.464 --> 01:14:42.454
It's about

01:14:44.734 --> 01:14:51.784
imagine the, the fear of losing it
because I worked with her and then

01:14:51.784 --> 01:14:55.274
we, we came into at a point I asked.

01:14:55.924 --> 01:14:59.614
I asked her what she told
you, lost your handbag.

01:15:00.514 --> 01:15:07.834
And to ask what they, what they
say gives the opportunity to speak.

01:15:08.614 --> 01:15:15.364
And then we found out this really demand
person when she was in, in the second

01:15:15.364 --> 01:15:22.624
World War, she lost her handbag with
everything, the money and the papers.

01:15:22.864 --> 01:15:29.344
And she had three little children and
an old woman with her and no food.

01:15:30.064 --> 01:15:34.804
And she lost or somebody steal
it, and the money was away.

01:15:34.804 --> 01:15:36.094
The papers were away.

01:15:36.154 --> 01:15:39.354
And the, the of awe papers.

01:15:39.384 --> 01:15:41.124
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, the,
the identification Doc.

01:15:41.124 --> 01:15:42.084
Gitti Berkhoff: Identification,

01:15:42.114 --> 01:15:42.294
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:15:42.954 --> 01:15:47.544
Gitti Berkhoff: And then she, they
were all in danger and maybe killed.

01:15:48.114 --> 01:15:53.844
And then she, she was, she
had the only option to.

01:15:54.729 --> 01:15:58.509
Sell her body to the soldiers,
to the soldiers, that they

01:15:58.509 --> 01:16:02.559
don't kill them and the kids.

01:16:02.949 --> 01:16:11.214
And from that, she was, when she went in
trouble searching her, her handbag and

01:16:13.449 --> 01:16:17.889
then sitting there and crying and not
be alone and following in her world,

01:16:18.009 --> 01:16:26.079
that means that validation is not to
discuss and telling people, no, it's

01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:29.919
not right how you feel that, and it's
long time ago, and now we are here.

01:16:30.369 --> 01:16:36.209
It's to follow into this feelings and
then give them the the feel feeling to,

01:16:36.209 --> 01:16:41.039
to talk about like a good friend and
to be not alone and let the tears come

01:16:41.879 --> 01:16:45.809
and then she could come down and, yeah.

01:16:46.199 --> 01:16:47.249
And I, I don't know.

01:16:47.249 --> 01:16:47.939
How did you find

01:16:47.939 --> 01:16:49.709
Rupert Isaacson: out the backstory about.

01:16:50.549 --> 01:16:52.349
What had happened to her in the war?

01:16:53.129 --> 01:16:55.619
Did she tell you or did
someone who knew her tell you?

01:16:55.649 --> 01:16:56.489
Gitti Berkhoff: Nobody knew.

01:16:57.029 --> 01:16:58.469
She told Okay.

01:16:58.469 --> 01:16:59.339
Nobody knew that.

01:16:59.579 --> 01:17:01.139
She never talked about that.

01:17:01.169 --> 01:17:06.479
She was traumatized and she was, she, she
had her speak, but sometimes you don't

01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:09.269
have people with the opportunity to speak.

01:17:09.659 --> 01:17:10.439
She had it.

01:17:10.799 --> 01:17:18.239
And when they get into this feeling, they
get really, sometimes really not demand

01:17:19.319 --> 01:17:19.739
Rupert Isaacson: Totally.

01:17:19.739 --> 01:17:20.879
How they come back to clarity.

01:17:20.939 --> 01:17:21.269
Yeah.

01:17:21.269 --> 01:17:21.989
To lucidity in,

01:17:21.994 --> 01:17:23.189
Gitti Berkhoff: in this feelings.

01:17:23.459 --> 01:17:24.029
Sometimes.

01:17:24.029 --> 01:17:25.259
Not always.

01:17:25.289 --> 01:17:28.619
Sometimes, and sometimes this is too much.

01:17:29.219 --> 01:17:37.499
But if you follow and not try to get
them to a point, really follow soft.

01:17:38.009 --> 01:17:38.039
Mm.

01:17:38.069 --> 01:17:45.739
Sometimes you can go back to trauma
and, but it's, it's a bit dangerous.

01:17:46.309 --> 01:17:46.489
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:17:46.489 --> 01:17:46.699
In,

01:17:46.699 --> 01:17:48.859
Gitti Berkhoff: in this
case, it was helpful.

01:17:49.579 --> 01:17:53.679
Not all the time you have to have
a bit experience with that and

01:17:54.459 --> 01:17:58.839
to stop when it's necessary and
important, more important to stop.

01:18:00.079 --> 01:18:06.919
But it's what the, the autism children
also have all the parents that somebody

01:18:06.919 --> 01:18:12.109
comes and tries to understand and really
to understand what is the feeling behind,

01:18:12.109 --> 01:18:18.499
because the, the emotion behind behavior,
behavior is always, there's always an

01:18:18.529 --> 01:18:25.219
emotion behind when you are at the dentist
and he says, you don't have to have fear.

01:18:25.609 --> 01:18:26.749
Sorry, I have it.

01:18:26.749 --> 01:18:28.039
It's, it's just here.

01:18:28.939 --> 01:18:30.679
And that that doesn't help.

01:18:31.429 --> 01:18:33.919
I need somebody who
understands that I have.

01:18:35.149 --> 01:18:35.629
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:18:36.109 --> 01:18:39.649
Again, is, is the
validation really empathy?

01:18:39.739 --> 01:18:41.809
Again, it seems that this
word keeps coming up.

01:18:41.839 --> 01:18:42.829
Empathy, empathy,

01:18:42.829 --> 01:18:45.289
Gitti Berkhoff: empathy,
empathy, empathy, and really.

01:18:46.849 --> 01:18:49.249
Following the feelings.

01:18:49.609 --> 01:18:49.969
And

01:18:52.159 --> 01:18:53.444
I believe to believe.

01:18:53.444 --> 01:18:53.564
Yeah.

01:18:53.704 --> 01:18:54.649
To believe Really.

01:18:54.649 --> 01:18:55.399
To believe.

01:18:55.819 --> 01:18:56.629
I believe you.

01:18:57.979 --> 01:18:58.369
Yes.

01:18:58.369 --> 01:18:58.999
Because even

01:18:58.999 --> 01:19:02.989
Rupert Isaacson: if this is a construct
of your imagination and you're seeing

01:19:03.049 --> 01:19:04.879
snakes coming out of the wall Yeah.

01:19:05.809 --> 01:19:07.544
To you, this is reals.

01:19:07.604 --> 01:19:09.769
You can't, you can't
say there are no snakes.

01:19:10.219 --> 01:19:10.489
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:19:10.729 --> 01:19:11.749
Rupert Isaacson: If you say, oh my God,

01:19:11.749 --> 01:19:15.739
Gitti Berkhoff: sometimes it, it, it's
only, it's enough to ask what could help.

01:19:16.579 --> 01:19:17.029
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:19:18.259 --> 01:19:18.679
Wendy?

01:19:18.679 --> 01:19:20.359
Do ask what could help you?

01:19:21.154 --> 01:19:21.694
Gitti Berkhoff: Do they tell

01:19:21.694 --> 01:19:24.859
Rupert Isaacson: you sometimes
if you do this, this will help?

01:19:25.459 --> 01:19:28.469
Gitti Berkhoff: Sometimes
it's, it's it's a point to ask

01:19:28.829 --> 01:19:30.989
because they lived a long life.

01:19:31.439 --> 01:19:32.489
What did help?

01:19:32.939 --> 01:19:34.169
What did you help?

01:19:34.169 --> 01:19:38.699
Sometimes, and then
sometimes they say praying.

01:19:39.329 --> 01:19:39.899
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:19:40.949 --> 01:19:41.759
Gitti Berkhoff: And then let's pray.

01:19:42.734 --> 01:19:43.154
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:19:43.694 --> 01:19:44.699
Together, we pray together

01:19:45.944 --> 01:19:47.564
Gitti Berkhoff: and not find the solution.

01:19:47.864 --> 01:19:50.144
If you really a problem,
you don't want all the si.

01:19:50.684 --> 01:19:56.734
So sometimes singing a lot of
helping us in music to sing old songs

01:19:56.734 --> 01:20:01.414
they have mostly from the church,
something that they want to sing.

01:20:01.414 --> 01:20:06.604
Then when we are old, we want Rolling
Stones or something, but they, yeah,

01:20:06.634 --> 01:20:11.344
this really old people now, 90 or
a hundred years old, they have,

01:20:12.214 --> 01:20:15.394
you have to know that homework.

01:20:16.144 --> 01:20:17.194
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:17.294 --> 01:20:23.354
Again, I think that very sometimes
when I'm doing trainings and in our

01:20:23.354 --> 01:20:28.154
methods, I will say they're often young
people that are doing the trainings.

01:20:28.154 --> 01:20:30.824
They're often maybe 21, 22.

01:20:30.824 --> 01:20:30.834
Yeah.

01:20:31.829 --> 01:20:35.339
We'll be walking in the environment
and I'll say, tell me what is that

01:20:35.339 --> 01:20:40.979
tree, or, tell me the history of this
piece of land that we're walking in.

01:20:40.979 --> 01:20:43.169
What happened here 500 years ago?

01:20:43.169 --> 01:20:43.409
What?

01:20:43.889 --> 01:20:47.729
And often they say, well, I don't
know, or, I'm not interested in that.

01:20:47.729 --> 01:20:51.839
I'm not interested in history,
or I'm not interested in trees.

01:20:51.839 --> 01:20:57.389
And then I'll say, well, yeah, but what if
the person you are working with asks this

01:20:57.389 --> 01:20:59.909
question then work if they're interested.

01:20:59.909 --> 01:20:59.999
Work.

01:21:00.209 --> 01:21:05.579
And frequently, like, I'm
often not interested in, for

01:21:05.579 --> 01:21:07.439
example, Marvel characters.

01:21:07.529 --> 01:21:08.819
I'm, I'm, I'm not interested.

01:21:08.819 --> 01:21:16.409
I, I'm, I'm not interested in Minecraft,
but I am interested in this child and I am

01:21:16.409 --> 01:21:19.529
interested in helping this child to talk.

01:21:19.679 --> 01:21:23.999
So I must develop some interest.

01:21:25.154 --> 01:21:26.504
Their interest.

01:21:26.714 --> 01:21:30.974
So I will get on Wikipedia and I will
look up some things about Minecraft

01:21:30.974 --> 01:21:35.564
and I will, so that I can have at least
the beginnings of a cocktail party

01:21:35.564 --> 01:21:38.414
conversation while we're walking along.

01:21:38.714 --> 01:21:43.994
And then I can say to that person, I
meet you in your world, can you meet?

01:21:43.999 --> 01:21:45.279
That's it a little bit in my world.

01:21:45.859 --> 01:21:46.279
Gitti Berkhoff: Mm-hmm.

01:21:46.489 --> 01:21:47.444
Rupert Isaacson: Again, that's

01:21:47.639 --> 01:21:47.919
Gitti Berkhoff: the bridge.

01:21:48.699 --> 01:21:49.039
Rupert Isaacson: The bridge.

01:21:49.039 --> 01:21:49.454
That's always

01:21:49.454 --> 01:21:51.644
Gitti Berkhoff: the bridge
to go into the world.

01:21:52.214 --> 01:21:56.024
And then let's see if you c
can follow me into my world.

01:21:56.029 --> 01:21:56.159
Right.

01:21:56.164 --> 01:21:57.674
And it's yours too, but.

01:21:57.749 --> 01:21:58.439
At that point.

01:21:58.439 --> 01:21:58.949
But you have

01:21:58.949 --> 01:21:59.579
Rupert Isaacson: to go first.

01:21:59.579 --> 01:22:00.749
I, I think this is, yeah.

01:22:00.749 --> 01:22:04.169
This is often missed by people
in the therapeutic world.

01:22:04.169 --> 01:22:05.339
It's our job.

01:22:05.489 --> 01:22:06.119
Your job.

01:22:06.119 --> 01:22:09.239
My job to go first into their world.

01:22:09.599 --> 01:22:11.519
Someone's coming into
your world right now.

01:22:11.609 --> 01:22:12.089
That was it.

01:22:13.169 --> 01:22:15.329
Gitti Berkhoff: Some, somebody's
coming into my world now.

01:22:15.539 --> 01:22:16.979
Rupert Isaacson: Is he
coming to take you away?

01:22:16.979 --> 01:22:17.439
Because I know.

01:22:17.744 --> 01:22:18.209
I think so.

01:22:18.209 --> 01:22:18.299
We

01:22:18.299 --> 01:22:23.889
Gitti Berkhoff: have to go to Berlin now
and to talk about horse and to meet this.

01:22:24.159 --> 01:22:26.564
Can I tell you to, to meet Dole?

01:22:26.564 --> 01:22:26.604
Yeah.

01:22:26.604 --> 01:22:26.799
So tell us

01:22:26.799 --> 01:22:28.149
Rupert Isaacson: what you're
about to go do in Berlin.

01:22:28.239 --> 01:22:31.479
Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, we, we want to
go to Berlin and we have meeting

01:22:31.479 --> 01:22:33.709
with politicians and with Mr.

01:22:33.709 --> 01:22:34.509
David Doyle.

01:22:34.899 --> 01:22:36.969
And In Bundestag?

01:22:37.059 --> 01:22:37.869
In Bundestag?

01:22:37.869 --> 01:22:38.139
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:22:38.139 --> 01:22:38.769
In the parliament.

01:22:39.039 --> 01:22:39.789
In the Parliament.

01:22:39.879 --> 01:22:40.629
What are you doing?

01:22:41.289 --> 01:22:41.949
Tell us.

01:22:42.069 --> 01:22:42.369
Gitti Berkhoff: Henry,

01:22:44.684 --> 01:22:45.999
it's, it's in Berlin.

01:22:45.999 --> 01:22:47.769
It's a parliament ca

01:22:50.229 --> 01:22:54.129
horses about horses, and they meet.

01:22:54.564 --> 01:23:01.674
David Doyle and he can tell about
his concept in Ireland, in Li Kin and

01:23:01.884 --> 01:23:05.394
that the government in i in Ireland is

01:23:07.824 --> 01:23:08.484
Rupert Isaacson: they support

01:23:08.484 --> 01:23:10.404
Gitti Berkhoff: supporting
that with money.

01:23:10.764 --> 01:23:11.214
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:23:12.594 --> 01:23:12.924
Gitti Berkhoff: And

01:23:15.144 --> 01:23:15.984
is coming there.

01:23:15.984 --> 01:23:19.874
And a lot of people, they
want to talk about the.

01:23:22.649 --> 01:23:25.049
The, the value of horses.

01:23:25.049 --> 01:23:25.199
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:23:25.199 --> 01:23:28.169
The, the, the value, the
social value of the horse.

01:23:28.169 --> 01:23:28.619
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:23:28.769 --> 01:23:36.029
And, and what is, they are more than
sport horses or therapy horses or, okay.

01:23:36.059 --> 01:23:36.389
Okay.

01:23:36.489 --> 01:23:37.089
Rupert Isaacson: This is fascinating.

01:23:37.089 --> 01:23:37.179
Tish

01:23:37.839 --> 01:23:38.529
Gitti Berkhoff: is breeding.

01:23:38.859 --> 01:23:39.309
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:23:39.359 --> 01:23:39.629
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:23:39.869 --> 01:23:46.439
And what is, what about nature
and what about living people and

01:23:46.439 --> 01:23:52.169
working and clients are working
like at David's place, you know?

01:23:52.169 --> 01:23:52.229
Wow.

01:23:53.309 --> 01:23:57.274
And we want to bring this idea
to Berlin, to the parliament.

01:23:57.414 --> 01:23:57.634
Wow.

01:23:58.464 --> 01:23:58.754
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:23:58.984 --> 01:24:00.149
This is extraordinary

01:24:00.299 --> 01:24:00.719
Gitti Berkhoff: today.

01:24:01.469 --> 01:24:01.739
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:24:01.739 --> 01:24:05.789
So we need to give a little bit of
background here for some listeners, if you

01:24:05.819 --> 01:24:08.609
haven't heard of David Doyle in Ireland.

01:24:08.789 --> 01:24:09.209
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:24:09.269 --> 01:24:11.909
Rupert Isaacson: You need
to go on Google right now.

01:24:12.179 --> 01:24:12.689
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:24:12.809 --> 01:24:14.669
Rupert Isaacson: And type in David Doyle.

01:24:15.749 --> 01:24:23.519
Lisett, L-I-S-K-E-N-N-E-T-T.

01:24:23.879 --> 01:24:31.769
That farm has pioneered our equine
assisted work to the point that he

01:24:31.769 --> 01:24:37.229
proved to the Irish government that
over five years he could work with the

01:24:37.229 --> 01:24:44.699
most violent, difficult young adults
who needed up to four minders with them.

01:24:45.029 --> 01:24:53.069
And through our methods, he could bring
that number of minders down to one, which

01:24:53.069 --> 01:25:01.109
saved the government about one and a
half million euros per client per year.

01:25:01.619 --> 01:25:07.169
And of course, not only does
this happen through joy and.

01:25:09.134 --> 01:25:09.674
Healing.

01:25:10.004 --> 01:25:12.974
But of course, from a government
point of view, they're interested in

01:25:12.974 --> 01:25:14.564
money, they're interested in numbers.

01:25:15.134 --> 01:25:20.294
David Doyle is too shy to come on
this podcast, although I'm hoping

01:25:20.564 --> 01:25:24.074
that one day we will be able to get
him on to talk about his work there.

01:25:24.344 --> 01:25:24.434
Mm-hmm.

01:25:24.674 --> 01:25:30.944
But yeah, and as he, he was the one
who's pioneered the work in Ireland

01:25:31.784 --> 01:25:34.634
to be now underwritten by government.

01:25:35.264 --> 01:25:37.184
So they now pay for horse
boy movement method.

01:25:37.274 --> 01:25:37.484
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:25:37.484 --> 01:25:39.044
And now we are allowed waiting

01:25:39.194 --> 01:25:41.894
Rupert Isaacson: for a
knock on effect in the eu.

01:25:42.164 --> 01:25:48.494
So how did you manage to get David
Doyle to the German parliament now?

01:25:48.764 --> 01:25:51.314
Gitti Berkhoff: Ooh, analyst,
do you want to tell this?

01:25:51.314 --> 01:25:55.504
Because we have the problem
that our train is going in.

01:25:56.404 --> 01:25:56.854
Rupert Isaacson: You know what?

01:25:56.854 --> 01:25:56.884
You know what?

01:25:56.884 --> 01:25:57.544
Don't worry about it.

01:25:57.544 --> 01:25:59.434
We are going to have a follow up episode.

01:26:00.244 --> 01:26:00.634
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:26:00.664 --> 01:26:01.324
When you come

01:26:01.324 --> 01:26:03.574
Rupert Isaacson: back from Berlin,
we're going to do this again.

01:26:03.979 --> 01:26:04.489
Gitti Berkhoff: Okay.

01:26:04.609 --> 01:26:07.934
And then tell about he was, I
wanna know the story was, was

01:26:07.939 --> 01:26:10.339
David Doyle in, in, in Berlin?

01:26:11.069 --> 01:26:13.559
Then we can talk what happened.

01:26:13.889 --> 01:26:14.339
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:26:14.399 --> 01:26:18.529
Gitti Berkhoff: And yeah, it's, I'm,
I'm excited to, to be, to go there.

01:26:19.619 --> 01:26:22.019
Rupert Isaacson: So this is
extraordinary, viewers and listeners.

01:26:22.099 --> 01:26:25.369
So what GIS saying is we have to end the

01:26:25.669 --> 01:26:26.029
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:26:26.119 --> 01:26:28.344
Rupert Isaacson: Interview
now gi 'cause we've got bored.

01:26:28.579 --> 01:26:31.249
GI and husband can get on a train.

01:26:31.279 --> 01:26:31.489
Yeah.

01:26:31.494 --> 01:26:35.269
He's the Irish, he's rejected
now to the German parliament to

01:26:35.269 --> 01:26:42.049
basically get the German government
to support equine assisted work.

01:26:42.529 --> 01:26:43.939
This is incredible, guys.

01:26:44.839 --> 01:26:45.979
Absolutely incredible.

01:26:46.129 --> 01:26:47.119
Will you come on?

01:26:47.569 --> 01:26:50.209
How long, when do you
come back from Berlin?

01:26:50.959 --> 01:26:53.319
Henrich Berkhoff: On Tuesday afternoon.

01:26:53.649 --> 01:26:54.219
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:26:54.879 --> 01:26:58.839
So we need to do round two
of this interview then.

01:26:59.169 --> 01:26:59.649
Yeah.

01:26:59.799 --> 01:27:03.249
We'll do a second installment and
we need to know what happened.

01:27:03.909 --> 01:27:04.809
Henrich Berkhoff: Yes, of course.

01:27:04.809 --> 01:27:07.339
It is a good, nice thing.

01:27:07.549 --> 01:27:09.649
Today we have a meeting with Clarissa.

01:27:09.679 --> 01:27:10.609
She's also there.

01:27:10.669 --> 01:27:10.909
Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:27:10.969 --> 01:27:12.139
She's coming with us.

01:27:13.189 --> 01:27:13.819
Henrich Berkhoff: This is another

01:27:13.819 --> 01:27:15.679
Rupert Isaacson: person that
we need to get on the show.

01:27:15.679 --> 01:27:16.369
Absolutely.

01:27:16.369 --> 01:27:16.999
Henrich Berkhoff: Absolutely.

01:27:16.999 --> 01:27:21.009
And the, what is so
successful is a method.

01:27:21.039 --> 01:27:21.519
Okay.

01:27:21.519 --> 01:27:25.569
But the people and the all the
tribe, we are together, all this

01:27:25.599 --> 01:27:28.839
people have the same thinking
and they have the same ideas.

01:27:29.649 --> 01:27:35.539
Hey, they see what can happen if we
stay in nature of this in movement

01:27:36.079 --> 01:27:39.269
Gitti Berkhoff: and everybody can have a
toilet brush at home to the toilet brush.

01:27:39.269 --> 01:27:39.844
Use it in a different way.

01:27:39.864 --> 01:27:40.459
Are you gonna take a

01:27:40.459 --> 01:27:43.804
Rupert Isaacson: toilet brush to the,
to the German parliament and interview

01:27:43.804 --> 01:27:45.979
them and throw toilet water on them?

01:27:47.299 --> 01:27:48.799
Henrich Berkhoff: Not
in the first round, but

01:27:50.839 --> 01:27:52.549
Rupert Isaacson: maybe when
you get to know them better.

01:27:52.609 --> 01:27:52.849
Yeah.

01:27:52.854 --> 01:27:53.404
Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah, yeah.

01:27:55.669 --> 01:27:55.879
Okay.

01:27:55.879 --> 01:27:55.969
Well

01:27:55.969 --> 01:27:57.889
Rupert Isaacson: listen guys, in
that case, I don't want to keep

01:27:57.889 --> 01:28:00.589
you go and do this important

01:28:00.799 --> 01:28:01.969
Gitti Berkhoff: catch the train now

01:28:02.659 --> 01:28:06.649
Rupert Isaacson: and we will do round
two of this interview when you get back.

01:28:07.009 --> 01:28:07.609
Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

01:28:07.669 --> 01:28:08.899
Gitti Berkhoff: Thank you for having us.

01:28:09.109 --> 01:28:10.099
Rupert Isaacson: Best of luck lads.

01:28:10.459 --> 01:28:13.219
Henrich Berkhoff: We, we sent
a picture tomorrow evening from

01:28:13.219 --> 01:28:15.109
the Irish pub in Berlin Okay.

01:28:15.109 --> 01:28:15.439
For you.

01:28:15.469 --> 01:28:15.949
Okay.

01:28:16.519 --> 01:28:17.419
Rupert Isaacson: Don't have any fun.

01:28:17.629 --> 01:28:17.809
Yeah,

01:28:17.839 --> 01:28:20.739
Henrich Berkhoff: no, it's
never, it's always work.

01:28:20.889 --> 01:28:21.309
Gitti Berkhoff: Main rule.

01:28:21.969 --> 01:28:22.509
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:28:23.109 --> 01:28:26.709
Alright, well in that case, I'm going
to stop the record button and say

01:28:26.709 --> 01:28:32.199
goodbye and thank you so much for coming
on and good luck in the Parliament

01:28:32.769 --> 01:28:34.599
and we will find out what happened.

01:28:35.079 --> 01:28:35.919
Henrich Berkhoff: Bye bye.

01:28:35.919 --> 01:28:36.879
Bye bye.

01:28:37.095 --> 01:28:40.215
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01:28:40.755 --> 01:28:45.655
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