Books and Bites Podcast, Ep. 117: Heroes and Villains Carrie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Books and Bites podcast. Each month, we bring you book recommendations and discuss the bites and beverages to pair with them I'm Carrie Green, and I'm here with my co-hosts Michael Cunningham and Jacqueline Cooper. Michael: Hello. Jacqueline: Hello, everyone. Carrie: So we're starting the fall bingo card this month, which runs from October 1st through December 30th, and we've got lots of great new prompts to share with you. Do you all have a prompt that you're looking forward to? Jacqueline: I'm looking forward to the folklore and legends. I think that would be fun to find. [Laughter] Carrie: Yeah, I kind of figured that you would be into that one. Jacqueline: Yeah. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Jacqueline: And I think I could do the celebration festival harvest one. I think I can find something I really like for that. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Jacqueline: How about you, Michael? Michael: Well, yes. Features folklore or legends would definitely be up my alley. There's a lot of horror books that go along with that one. And also, harvest festival [00:01:00] celebration. There's a lot of folk horror for that one. And also today is the heroes and villains. Carrie: Yeah, so- Michael: I was looking forward to ... Carrie: almost sounds like you had something to do with creating these prompts. Michael: No, not me. [Laughter] Carrie: Yeah, I noticed that when I was creating the book lists, when I started them, that there were a lot of horror that fit on the legends one. But I thought you were kinda getting out of the horror a little bit. Michael: I was. Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. Michael: But you know you can't ever just leave it. [Laughter] Carrie: Oh, okay. All right. Jacqueline: I think the book with orange or red or gold would definitely lend itself to horror. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Jacqueline: Especially the red. Carrie: Oh, yeah. Definitely. And some fall themes. Jacqueline: Sure. Carrie: So if you wanna lean into the cozy pumpkins or whatever, you can do that too. Michael: Yeah, it's like festival, harvest, celebration. I was like, I could either go the cozy route or the horror route. [Laughter] Jacqueline: Yeah, that's like- Michael: I'm gonna pick horror every time. Carrie: Naturally. Jacqueline: Great.[00:02:00] Carrie: Well, when I start making the list, I start looking for what I'm gonna read. And I actually wrote down three, no, four books for the features folklore and legends, so I think I'll have a hard time choosing on that one too. Michael: Yeah, I mean, there's so many books that feature or are about some sort of legend. Carrie: Yeah, and folklore, like, really encompasses, mythology and just, you know, fairytales, and so it's a pretty broad topic. So we've also got a few events coming up on this bingo sheet as well. We have two (Not So) Silent book club times on this bingo card. Michael, you wanna talk about that? Michael: Yes. Coming up on the next bingo sheet, we have the (Not So) Silent book club meeting, and that will be on October 12th and November 9th at [00:03:00] 6:30 PM in front of the fireplace in the main library. And then we are also going to be doing our next book club, which is gonna be Hope House by Joe Bond, and that's gonna be on November 16th at 6:30 in our conference room. Carrie: Yes. Just a little, maybe a little preview about what that book is about. So it is about a group home for boys in Eastern Kentucky in the 1980s, so kinda like a foster care/home for troubled teens. Like teens who've gotten into trouble, that kind of home. Yeah, do you wanna add anything about it? Michael: Yeah, the subject matter is a little heavier. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Jacqueline: Is this written for teens, or is this written for adults? Carrie: It's written for adults. Michael: Yeah, yeah. Carrie: Yeah. It's a book for adults, but it's about [00:04:00] teens. And the author, he is from Eastern Kentucky, although he lives in New Orleans now, and he grew up, not as a teen in one of the homes, but his father ran some of these homes, and so he grew up in that setting and around these kids. So you can really ... I've only just started it, but you can really tell, that he had first-hand knowledge. I feel like my heart gets broken on every page almost. It's really- Jacqueline: Oh. Michael: Yeah, it gets pretty, kinda heavy when you start learning some of these kids' stories. Registration is now open, and you can pick your book up. We will have 10 copies available, and you can pick those up at the Customer Service Desk when you register. Carrie: And Joe Bond, the author, is going to be our guest for Prompt to Page, and we'll also include some conversation with him on the next Books and Bites podcast as well. And Michael and I will [00:05:00] be discussing the book- Michael: Yes ... Carrie: for the next podcast. Jacqueline: I think it's interesting that, you know, the superhero and the villains, they always have a kind of a backstory when they were young, and usually teenagers or maybe even younger, that something's happened in their life that's made a lot of impact. Michael: Remember that point for my book. Jacqueline: Oh. [Laughter] Michael: That's an interesting point. My story's about a villain, or my story has a very- Jacqueline: Oh ... Michael: has a villain, you know? People joke about having, you know, this is their villain origin story. But what if there isn't one? Carrie: Oh, there isn't one? Jacqueline: Oh, there isn't one? Michael: So. Carrie: Okay. Michael: Ooh, okay. Little, little sneak peek. Carrie: So a little twist- Michael: Little teaser ... Carrie: ... on the trope. But yeah, you're right, Jacqueline. Usually it is the origin story or the... Superman is the one that comes to mind. Michael: Yeah. Jacqueline: Spider-Man. Michael: Spider-Man. How many times have we seen that in the movies? [Laughter] Same origin story. Jacqueline: And then [00:06:00] the villains usually had something happen. I don't know. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Something that turned them evil. Jacqueline: Yeah. "They got upset about something!" [Laughter] Carrie: The turning point ... Jacqueline: Mm, maybe, was the Joker always evil? That I don't know. Do y'all know the Joker's origin story? Carrie: I don't know. Michael: I feel like there's... Oh man, I haven't read... I feel like there's one graphic novel of Batman that maybe explains it, but I know just in the films there's really nothing to explain. Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. Michael: There's some allusions to what maybe happened, but like, there's nothing really there. Jacqueline: Such interesting, fun concepts that they come up with within these comics or comic novels. Carrie: Well, and I don't know that we said that, but if you haven't guessed already, our topic for this episode is heroes and villains. [Laughter] Which is one of the prompts on the fall bingo sheet, and that's also the theme of Comic Surge this year, which you [00:07:00] may have already come to Comic Surge by the time you listen to this, but it's October 10th, right? Jacqueline: Yes, it's October 10th. Carrie: Yeah. Okay. So without further ado! Michael: If you wanna check out a modern classic literary villain, I highly recommend No Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthy. If you're reading a Cormac McCarthy novel for the first time, you'll notice immediately that he has a certain aversion to normal punctuation, especially quotation marks. That can make the book a little tedious to read at first, but once you get used to it, the story takes hold and never lets go. Personally, I listened to the audiobook, which made it much easier to follow the dialogue. The story begins along the borderlands of Mexico and Texas in 1980. Llewelyn Moss, out hunting antelope in the desert, stumbles upon a scene of bullet-riddled trucks, dead bodies, and blood. As he [00:08:00] investigates the chaotic scene, he finds a load of heroin in the back of one of the trucks and follows a trail of blood into the desert, where he discovers a dead man holding a case containing $2.4 million. Like any sensible person in this situation, he takes the money and runs. That fateful decision sets off a violent and bloody chain of events that stretches across Texas. The drug cartel wants its money back, and they send Anton Chigurh, a ruthless and terrifying killer, after Moss. And through all this, we also follow Sheriff Bell, who's trying to track down Moss before Chigurh gets to him. As he follows in the wake of Chigurh's path of violence, we get Bell's doom-ridden ruminations as he tries to make sense of everything that's happening around him, feeling increasingly disconnected from the changing country and struggles with the feeling that he simply doesn't understand the world anymore. What makes Chigurh such a fascinating villain is that he has no origin story. We know almost nothing about him. There's no traumatic event or [00:09:00] motivation that explains why he is the way he is. He simply exists as this existential force of nature that will stop at nothing to accomplish his goal, kind of like a personification of death. He reminds me of characters like Michael Myers, Jason Voorhees, or even the great white shark from Jaws. He's less of a traditional villain and more of a force of pure violence and evil. He even plays a game of heads or tails with some of his victims, leaving their fate to the flip of a coin. And while his preferred weapons are a silenced pistol and a silenced shotgun, he's most famous for using a captive bolt pistol, a tool normally used to kill livestock. Javier Bardem's portrayal of Chigurh in the 2007 film adaptation elevated the character into one of the most terrifying and iconic villains in cinematic history. After reading this, this shot up my list of all-time favorites, and if you haven't already, you should absolutely check out the Coen brothers' exceptional film adaptation, which won four Oscars in '07, [00:10:00] including Best Picture. I paired this book with a Texas dish called Texas Twinkies, using a recipe from tasteofhome.com. Texas Twinkies are essentially jalapeno poppers filled with brisket and wrapped in bacon. This fairly easy recipe calls for brisket, pepper jack cheese, bacon, and cream cheese. If you don't have brisket, you can substitute pulled pork, and if you have a smoker, I would highly recommend throwing them on there instead of the oven for some added smokiness. Carrie: Mmm. That sounds good. Have you tried it? Michael: Yes. They are very good. Carrie: Okay. Michael: Yeah, a little spicy, a little sweet from the barbecue sauce. Get that real smoky flavor from the bacon. Jacqueline: I thought you, when you said a flip of a coin, I thought you were gonna say flip of the head. They were, he was flipping people's heads for a minute there. I was like, "Oh, my goodness." Michael: No. That, that, no. Jacqueline: That's why I was like, "Oh, no, that does sound-" Michael: That'd be a little, little much. [Laughter] Jacqueline: I thought, that's where my mind went, and I'm like, "Oh, good. He's not... They're not... He's not flipping their heads." Carrie: You're a [00:11:00] McCarthy fan, right? Has this... How many books of his have you read? Michael: I have read, let's see. I've read No Country for Old Men, Child of God, and I have started Blood Meridian. So like two and a half. He's like, but he's got quite the bibliography to go. I enjoy him. I know he's kind of problematic nowadays, but yeah, a lot of that. He's got this East Tennessee with his Child of God, and Outer Dark, and Suttree, I believe, all take place in East Tennessee. Then he's got his whole Texas- No Country for Old Men, and what is that one? Pretty Horses. Oh, man. Carrie: All the Pretty Horses. Michael: Yeah, All the Pretty Horses and Blood Meridian. I think The Crossing. So I haven't read those yet, but, I do enjoy him. Definitely very violent. Carrie: Yeah, I tried reading All the Pretty Horses, I guess, around when the time it was popular- Michael: Yeah Carrie: and I just couldn't get into it. I've heard [00:12:00] people say that, well, you know, I didn't even realize he was from East Tennessee until he died. But I've heard people say that they really liked those novels best, the ones that took place in Tennessee. Michael: The Child of God does. It's, like, more of a novella, but it's almost, some of it, he even borders on, like, horror. Some of, I think, like, is it The Outer Dark? It has some horror elements to it as well. Very interesting. There's some, definitely some comedy in, I know in The Child of God. So yeah. Carrie: Cool. Michael: Classic, classic author. And, this villain, he has no origin story, no, nothing that we know that set him off why he is the way he is. And so, you know, some people find that more terrifying. Jacqueline: Yeah. I think a lot of real villains, we don't really know why. Which makes it even, like you said, even more scary. Michael: They're a little, yeah, a little scary. Jacqueline: They just look like, they look normal, they act normal, but they're not. Michael: Yeah. Carrie: Yeah, and I [00:13:00] think maybe that's part of why that theme is such a popular theme in movies, literature, comic books, 'cause you want to understand why. Jacqueline: Yeah. Michael: And you sometimes, you just can't. Carrie: Yeah. Jacqueline: Yeah. You're like, "Well, why'd they do that?" Like, especially things that you would never, like, I could never do that. I don't think I could. But then, for me, it's like, well, what made them do that? Michael: Yeah. I mean, watching horror films, you're like, "Okay, this person did this. That's how he wound up in this person's crosshairs." But if you don't know, like, you, you could get got any time. Carrie: Right. Jacqueline: That's true. Carrie: And that kinda shows up, like, in mysteries too, because you know, often the person who commits the murder, you would never suspect them as the murderer. It's like something flips and they, you know. Jacqueline: And they do. Carrie: Yeah. Interesting.[00:14:00] Jacqueline: So I read Renegades by Marissa Meyer, a young adult dystopian novel with villains and heroes. Set in a world recovering from years of chaos, the Renegades are powerful people with extraordinary abilities who have banded together to rebuild society, establish order, and bring peace to the world that was nearly destroyed twenty years earlier. The Renegades present themselves as symbols of justice and hope. They call themselves superheroes. They promised safety, encouraging people to stay indoors while they restored order. However, they failed six-year-old Nova when a criminal murdered her mother, brother, and eleven-year-old sister. Not everyone has an ability, but Nora does, and she survived being murdered with her family by using her ability to put the [00:15:00] killer to sleep. Because the Renegades superheroes failed to save her family, Nova sees them as people who decided who deserves saving and who does not. She goes to live with her uncle and the Anarchists. The Anarchists oppose the Renegades because they believe the new system is no better than the old one. Those with abilities who do not agree with the new order, including Nova's uncle, are treated as criminals and driven underground. Nova's personal loss makes it impossible for her to see the Renegades as heroes. She believes they have become too powerful, failed to keep their promises, and only protect people who support their vision of society. Eventually, the Anarchists decide to start fighting for control of the world. The conflict between the two groups continues to escalate. During one of these conflicts, Nova's uncle is killed. In response, she and the remaining Anarchists [00:16:00] devise a plan for her to join the Renegades as a spy with the ultimate goal of avenging her family and killing their leader. However, as Nova spends more time with both heroes and villains, she begins to question whether either side is as good as or as evil as she once believed. Like most superheroes and villains, the main character in this story has two identities, their everyday persona and their superhero or villain persona. Many of their powers are unique and interesting. One character can travel through mirrors, while another coughs up rubies. The imaginative abilities, complex characters, and shifting perspectives make this a fun, engaging read, especially during our Comic Surge month when many are attending the event, dress up, and become their favorite characters from books and movies. To go along with the themes of the book, I chose a recipe from Susan Brings Dessert, black cocoa [00:17:00] cookies. These cookies are made with the same black cocoa powder used in Oreo cookies and are sprinkled with powdered sugar for a striking black-and-white appearance. Their dark color reminds me of Nova, also known as Nightmare, who often operates in the shadows and keeps her identity hidden. A sprinkle of sanding sugar adds a touch of sparkle, making the cookies both mysterious and beautiful, much like the character herself. Michael: I looked at this book and I thought about reading it and also looked at another YA book called Steelheart by Brandon Sanderson. Jacqueline: Oh, the teens love that. Michael: Yeah. Jacqueline: That's on my list. Michael: About that one, I think where something makes them superheroes, all these folks get to be superheroes, but guess what? Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. Michael: They're all bad. Jacqueline: They're all bad? Michael: Pretty much, right? I started reading it and, it was good. I enjoyed it. I thought it was a super interesting story. Jacqueline: In this book, yeah, I mean, they're [00:18:00] all kind of like trying to kill each other in some ways, it seems like. [Laughter] So who is the villain and who is the hero? Michael: The superheroes aren't great and villains might not be all villain. A lot of gray in it. Jacqueline: Yeah. And some of them have like kind of creepy stories too, like, or backstories of how they became who they became. Like we were talking about like one guy, he died in a fire and then now he's able to like- Michael: Oh, so he died and came back? Jacqueline: Yeah, he died and came back. Michael: Oh, wow. Jacqueline: So now he can do things. I can't remember now. Michael: What was it in Steelheart? There was what, an invisible guy, and what, Steelheart can turn things into steel and is invincible, kinda like a Superman-type character. Jacqueline: Yeah, it seems like in this book their abilities aren't as super as you would think. Like one of them, like she attracts bees and they kind of crawl all over her and hornets and- Michael: Oh ... Jacqueline: I guess she can use them to sting people and things like that. Michael: Do they have, do they have cool like superhero, supervillain names? Jacqueline: They [00:19:00] do. The woman that coughs up rubies, she can turn them into weapons and her name is Red Assassin, so it's kind of a- Michael: Oh, ooh, okay ... Jacqueline: a cool name for her. One guy, his name is Sketch and he can sketch anything and it comes to life. So they're very different, very unique kind of qualities, I think. Like one guy can do stuff with his mind, so move things with his mind. That's kind of cool. And then one guy's a gargoyle, and he can just stomp on everything 'cause he's like made out of concrete. Michael: Oh wow. Kinda like the- Jacqueline: He can kill you just by stomping on you ... Michael: like The Thing or The Hulk type of- Jacqueline: Yeah, kinda like that. Michael: All right. Jacqueline: Yeah. And I don't know, he's supposed to be a superhero, but he seems kinda like a villain to me. But there's two more books after this, so we're gonna, we'll find out more as the stories go. Michael: Okay. Carrie: Cool. Thanks.[00:20:00] So I read The Making of Another Major Motion Picture Masterpiece by Tom Hanks. Yes, that Tom Hanks, who seems to have taken the adage "Write what you know" quite literally. As the title suggests, this book tells the story of how one fictional movie, a big budget superhero epic, gets made, from the first idea to the final credits. The book begins in 1947, when five-year-old Robby Anderson's Uncle Bob, a World War II veteran with PTSD, visits his family in Lone Butte, California, for the first time since the war. Uncle Bob takes Robby to the drugstore with him on the back of his motorcycle, where he buys the boy soda and comics--and promptly abandons him. In 1970, the adult [00:21:00] Robby, now a professional comic book illustrator and writer, creates an underground comic about a flamethrowing soldier inspired by his uncle. Years later, that comic inspires the famous screenwriter and movie director, Bill Johnson, who bases his movie, Knightshade: The Lathe of Firefall, on it. The movie is filmed on location in Lone Butte during the COVID-19 pandemic. The novel has a large cast of characters, as you might expect from a big budget movie. There's Robby and his family, Bill Johnson, his partners and producers, the actors, plus various supporting crew members such as makeup artists, teamsters, and production assistants. Standout characters include Wren Lane, who plays the female superhero lead and wants to become the Bette Davis of her day, and Al [00:22:00] Mac-Teer, Bill Johnson's partner and producer. Al wasn't even looking to get into Hollywood when she was hired by Dace, Bill's producer at the time. Al was working the desk at a hotel chain in Richmond, Virginia, where they were filming on location. But Al was able to solve their problems, including the very important one of where to find vanilla froyo with sprinkles after a long day of shooting, and a production star was born. Hanks gives you a behind-the-scenes look at all the things that are wonderful about making a movie--the creativity and camaraderie, for example--as well as all the things that can go wrong, such as a very toxic male lead. He seems to see the movie-making business through rose-colored glasses. Mostly, the characters are heroic. There's a creative, kind director, an understanding producer, and an assistant director who ends each day by telling the cast and [00:23:00] crew, "You are loved." But the biggest hero of them all might be Ynez, the driver Al hires as a PA after she solves all of HER production problems. The book also leans toward the sentimental, as the title hints. Does anyone in Hollywood actually say motion picture anymore? This novel would have you believe it's the current terminology rather than a holdover from film's early days. It would all be a bit grating if it also wasn't so much fun. There's plenty of humor and gossip--names redacted!--to counteract all the sweetness. The dialogue is snappy, and the superhero story is more interesting than the usual fare, while still featuring plenty of familiar tropes. I started out listening to this on audio, and while I found the large cast a little tricky to keep up with, I appreciated hearing Hanks [00:24:00] read most of it. Some characters are voiced by other performers, at least when their viewpoints are initially introduced. But then Hanks goes back to narrating them, which I found a little confusing. I switched to the print format because I wanted to see the included comics written by Hanks and illustrated by Robert Sikoryak. They were fun, but ultimately unnecessary if you just want to stick with audio. You could pair The Making of Another Major Motion Picture masterpiece with the obvious popcorn, but I think vanilla frozen yogurt with sprinkles suits it best. It's an all-American treat that seems perfectly suited to its creator--aside from a box of chocolates, of course. Jacqueline: Mmm. [Laughter] That's a good one. Yeah, I think that would be confusing if they're... He has someone else read and then he switches and starts reading. That would be confusing. Michael: It's weird. Carrie: [00:25:00] Yeah. I couldn't figure out why they were doing that, and, you know, I thought maybe if I started reading it in print, it would be more obvious to me. But yeah, I don't know exactly why they made that choice. I found it a little... 'Cause you're expecting it to continue in that person's point of view. But then it switches. I mean, you're expecting it to continue in that person's voice, and then it switches, and you-- Anyway. Jacqueline: Yeah. I had a hard time keeping up with some of my characters in my book too, because some of them had three personas, and I'm like, "What? What, who's this?" Carrie: Oh, yeah. Jacqueline: "Where'd they come from?" Carrie: That would be tricky. [Laughter] Jacqueline: So that was a little confusing for me as well. Michael: Do they go into a lot of the drama behind the scenes of making the movie and stuff? Carrie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like that one male lead, who I don't wanna give, I don't wanna give away what happens with [00:26:00] him, but I mean, he is, he's like everything that you imagine a Hollywood action star you know, all the ways that they could be a jerk. He is them. He is all of that in one person. [Laughter] Jacqueline: He's the villain, huh? Carrie: He is. Michael: Oh, man. Carrie: He's definitely the villain on set. Michael: I wonder how much Tom Hanks has pulled from his experiences on set. Carrie: I know. It was kind of funny in some of the, like, where they're kind of gossiping among each other, telling horror stories about past sets, and you know, it says, "Insert name of huge movie star here." You know, so you just kinda know that that's probably based on a real person. [Laughter] Jacqueline: Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of drama with some of these stars. And then they get, like, blacklisted almost, where they, no one wants to work with them. Because they get such a bad reputation. But I guess there's some that are so big that they're never gonna go away. [Laughter][00:27:00] Carrie: Right. Thanks for listening to the Books and Bites podcast. Our theme music is The Breakers from the album In Close Quarters with the Enemy by Scott Whiddon. You can learn more about Scott and his music at his website, adoorforadesk.com.