Everyone Is Included

In the latest episode of Juicy Bits, Jen sits down with Humaira Falkenberg, an alpinist, ski mountaineer, kite surfer, and Principal of JEDI Outdoors. Humaira, who identifies as an immigrant and woman of color, has dedicated the last 30 years to making the outdoors in the United States a more inclusive space. You won't want to miss this conversation that explores everything to how Humaira culled her skills in the outdoor and JEDI (justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion) worlds, what she learned in the first-ever on-snow JEDI training with Olympic Gold medalist Deb Armstrong, and her most memorable outdoor experience. As always, we'd love to hear from you! Share your thoughts with us at [e-mail].

Show Notes

You can get to know Humaira better here, and learn about her on-snow DEI training with Olympic Gold medalist Deb Armstrong here. 

What is Juicy Bits?

We created Juicy Bits because we wanted to continue the conversations that we start out on the trail and on the chair lift. Hosted by our CEO Jen Gurecki and Ambassador Jillian Raymond, they talk candidly about everything from dude soup, to sex, to politics, to equity in the outdoors. We occasionally (read: frequently) drop F-bombs, interview some of the most interesting people in the outdoors and beyond, and say things that many of us think but don’t feel comfortable saying out loud. If you are easily offended or looking for something that is G Rated, this is not the podcast for you. But if you love truth-telling and irreverence, get ready to laugh, cry, and maybe pee your pants a little bit. 

Hello and welcome. I'm Jillian Raymond, the co creator of Juicy Bits and a Coalition Snow ambassador. And I'm Jen Gurecki, your co host and the CEO of Coalition Snow. For those of you who are new, get rid you to laugh, cry, and maybe peer pants. A Little Juicy Bits is about taking the conversations that we start on the chairlift and at the trailhead and bringing them to you to explore alternative narratives that challenge the status quo about what it means to be a modern woman in the outdoors. Grab your helmet, because sometimes it's a bumpy ride. Fyi friends, this podcast is for mature audiences, so you've been warned. Let's get to work and juice the patriarchy.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of Juicy Bits. This is Jen Gurecki. I am so excited to welcome our very special guests today, primarily because we've been chatting for the past 20 minutes before we even started recording. So I have this feeling that the conversation is going to be really rich and really real. The person who I'm talking about is Humira Falkenberg. And this bio that I'm about to read, you're just going to have to really listen to this bio. So Humira is the principal of Jedi Outdoors. She provides anti racism and inclusion coaching to nonprofit, outdoor organizations and private enterprises. She's been doing this for more than 20 years and approaches all of this with an intersectional approach, working with companies who want to weave justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion into the core of their business model. Not only is she the principal of Jedi Outdoors, she's also on the board of the Pacific Northwest Professional Ski Instructors of America. She's a level one PSIA and level one PSIA instructor. An alpinist, a ski mountaineer, a kite surfer, an all around outdoor enthusiast. I'll add an all around awesome human. And also, she just led the first ever inaugural on Snow Jedi training in North America, hosted by Taos Valley with Deb Armstrong. And her motto is, when you invest in me, I invest in others. Welcome to Juicy Bits.

Jen, thank you for such a warm introduction and lengthy, too. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. What a pleasure is all mine. Whenever people send me BIOS, I always think about like, well, how can I kind of shorten it so that I don't have to read the whole thing? And I was looking at your bio this morning, I was like, oh, no, there's nothing to cut. There's not a single thing that I'm going I I'll mean, add my own little bit, but there's nothing to take out.

It's really impressive what you do and what you've been able to accomplish. What I know about you, it seems like you've really been able to blend your love of the outdoors and Jedi work together, which is such, I would say, like a unique and innovative approach in snow sports. And I'm curious, why did you decide to go down this life path and who or what has inspired you along the way?

You know, Jen, for me, the connection to outdoors and outdoor spaces really started very early in my life as a child, and I really saw what it did for my spirit. The more time I spent outside the healthier I was mentally, physically, and I was very present. When I'm outside, I'm really very present. I'm consciously in the moment. And so this love of the outdoors was really put into the soil very early in my life. And as I progressed in my outdoor career, whether it was climbing or hiking or backpacking, I had this experience in my mid 20s where I was looking to go to a National Park in the United States. And I had read some comments about exclusion of minorities in national parks, and I was really shocked at that. And it penetrates deep into my skin, into my bones. And then that really started my journey about how to cultivate inclusion in outdoor spaces so that everyone feels included. Yeah. And so that's how the merging of my outdoor activities with inclusion work really began. I really see that as a major milestone in my life where the gear started sinking and I began seeing the bigger picture.

What started first you're quite accomplished as an outdoors person. Did that kind of progression happen tangentially to your career in doing the Jedi work, or were they separate and then came together? I'm just curious over the last 30 years how you were able to develop both of those skill sets.

Jen, that's a really excellent question. It's a question I actually haven't been asked before. So I'm giving it some pause and thought to seeing how those two work streams came together. Right. And I think the Jedi work really came out of a need because I was participating in outdoor organizations, whether it was volunteering or as a participant or helping to lead trainings like such as crevasse rescue or backcountry skiing or what have you or climbing or mountaineering. And what I continue to see in those spaces. And I'm speaking specific to the United States. I'm not talking about my experience in other parts of the world. I'm talking specifically to the United States within North America. And I experienced what would be barriers to entry in outdoor spaces. And I knew that I wasn't the only one, particularly in conversations with other women, because it's an identity that I have. I identify as a woman. I'm also a person of color. Another identity I have is I'm an immigrant. English isn't my first language. And so I really saw why am I the only immigrant woman of color, someone who speaks English as a second or third language in these spaces? And yet I'm deeply committed to the environment and stewardship and conservation. Why do people like me not get reflected in the broader landscape? I was like, oh, well, I'm going to have to do something about that.

And you have. And you certainly have. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of it is also conversation with bringing my peers along with me. Right. And for me, I really see it as a path of growth, as a path of evolution. How do I, as an individual, continue to improve myself in my relation with community? Right. Yeah. Well, it appears that you just reached a huge milestone with this first on snow Jedi training that happened this year. And I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about that, because I'm quite familiar with Jedi trainings. Obviously, we know what it's like to be on snow, but you've done something really unique in bringing them together. And I would love if you could share with our audience what you were able to facilitate this winter. Sure. So the training was hosted by Tau Ski Valley under the leadership of David Norton and Bert Skull. And it was facilitated with Deb Armstrong, who's an Olympic gold medalist in GS. And, of course, true support of me to be there. I have been in the snow sports industry for quite some time. And separately, there are these educational trainings that happen in a boardroom or on Zoom or in offices, but very rarely, like, it hasn't been done to take the training and put it on snow, because on snow, we love being on snow. We love gliding, whether it's skiing or snowboarding or with a bike, ski or however you want to move on snow, we love to do that. We love to be outside. And when you are in your element of moving in a fashion, you love that's a great environment to learn it and grow it. Right. And so a lot of exercises that I have generally done with organizations in a boardroom or a conference, I was like how to adapt those for on the snow. And it was a conversation that really started with Deb Armstrong. And she and I, we sat down and we talked about, like how to put a curriculum together for snow sports industry, and that would be meaningful. Right. So came up with a number of exercises to do on snow, working on precision and language, differentiating equality from equity. So. Yeah, that's how it started, Jen.

Yeah. Well, there is a YouTube video, and we will put this in the show notes so people can access that. And one of the things that's in the video was one of the exercises where people were told to get out of their skis and then they had to move around and try to get into other people's skis. Was there anything remarkable that came from that or anything that you were able to glean from that like an AHA moment watching people have to be able to link that these people inherently understand the problems of not being able to get your ski boot into someone else's ski bindings. Like they know that. But did you see anything where there was these AHA moments of like, oh, and that's how that relates to Jedi.

Exactly. It was wonderful to watch these AHA moments where some people were really struggling with a really large boot, putting into a binding that's set for a 22 Mondo. Right. And they're like, the exercise was really related to how often people will conflate equality with equity. Right. So equality would be giving everyone a ski and equity would be giving everyone a ski that fits to their boot. Right. Right. And it really became very obvious to them, like, oh, we all have inherent differences and that we need to have precision in our language about equality and equity.

When you say precision in our language, is there sort of something that strikes you frequently that you wish that people understood differently or wish that people could use different language? I'm just curious, when you use that term, precision in language, what it is that you're referring to. There's so much. Right. But for our audience, I'm wondering if there's an example that would really be able to elucidate that for them.

Sure. Oftentimes when we talk about equality. Right. It's a parsing of resources equally. Right. And then in equity, it's parsing the resources based on need. Yeah. Right. And as you dig deeper into inequitable systems that we have in society, whether it's housing, legal or educational or health care, there are systemic and institutionalized inequities created over time. Right. For various individuals, that exercise related to skis is a point of entry into that broader discussion. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Oh, it absolutely does. And it is. I feel like in the course of my career and even long before coalition snow, because prior to Coalition, I worked in outdoor Ed and I was in academia, people didn't like it when you use the word equity because they didn't quite understand it and they were more comfortable with the word equality. And so when you even being a woman, using the word equity was something that could really challenge people in a way that you're not even meaning to challenge them at all. But it really does require us to examine, I think, these taken for granted assumptions around what it is that women or anybody who doesn't hold all the power and privilege, what it is that we are striving for and we're not actually striving for anything that's necessarily equal.

Agreed. Now, you could even look at it in the context of if we're speaking about gender. Right. If we're talking about gender with respect to men and women, I'm just using it as an example separating just men and women. And that also is not all inclusive with respect to gender. Right. Being certainly my words with respect to that, you look at office spaces that at some point in US history did not have separate areas for women to breastfeed. Right? Yeah.

Well, you've said that our relationship with the outdoors is another advancement in civil rights. And I would love to hear you talk more about that, because I don't think that there's a lot of people who put those two together, civil rights and the outdoors. But you clearly have decades of experience with those two particular things. Can you speak a little bit more to that? Yeah. And I would say not just a civil right. I view it as a human right. Human right. I view it as a human right where we have this connection with nature. And it doesn't have to be like in big national parks or big remote, glamorous places. It can be in a city park, it can be in your home garden. It can be nourishing plants at home. It can be taking a daily walk outside your neighborhood or in your area. And when I see it in the form of a civil right, a human right. Speaking again, with respect to in the United States, we've had a history of segregation in outdoor spaces. Right. We can't deny that. And then in addition to that, when you look at a lens of housing segregation and housing development, particularly post 60s. Right. You look at where the green spaces are and where the green spaces are not. Right. Air quality, water quality. Right. Those are all civil rights. Those are all human rights access. Yeah. There's a reason why public infrastructure is called civil infrastructure. Right? Yeah. It's in our fabric of our society. And that includes green spaces. It includes our Rivers and our oceans and our mountains and our city parks and our community gardens. And to be able to have that deep connection with nature. And my mom had it and has it love of outdoors.

I only have ten years under my belt with Coalition and then about ten years on the educational side of things. But I feel like the outdoor industry is evolving a little bit now in the sense of recognizing a broader scope of what being in the outdoors looks like and what it means. And for so long, what was represented was quite myopic and actually exclusionary when you think about it, like what the archetype of a true outdoors person is something that has required significant access to vehicles, access to resources, access to gear, access to education that not everybody has or necessarily even wants.

Right. That's one way to approach existing in the outdoors. But there is this broader understanding that somebody who spends time in their city park is as a legitimate outdoors person, as somebody who does a through hike. And I feel like when we get to that point where that becomes the dominant narrative in the outdoors, then the outdoors will be more inclusive. But if we continue down this road of only the people with the greatest technical skill, ability to travel around the world and into some of the most remote locations, we're just going to continue to exclude people through those narratives, you are Jen. You are absolutely spot on. And so to the extent that the outdoor industry can widen the aperture of lens of what it means to be outside. Right. And visually show it in its magazines and so on and so forth, and people can hear it, use other senses. Right. Of what it means and looks like and have it be celebrated. Now, that's not to say that you don't celebrate the wonderful accomplishments of people doing amazing physical feats and traveling. Absolutely. To promote places. Not at all. What I'm suggesting is not that you take away from that, but that, in fact, you add to it. And you also celebrate those who may not have the financial wherewithal to dress up in thousand dollar gear, $2,000 gear and be able to go walk outside their neighborhood or go for a walk in their local park. It doesn't have to look like that. Yeah. There truly is enough sand for everyone. Like we can all play in the same sandbox. Right. It's big enough. It's this glorious, huge world for everyone.

But since we're talking about outdoor experiences, do you have a favorite out of the course of your entire lifetime, do you have a moment or a trip or a particular time in the outdoors that really rises to the top for you?

Wow. That's a really tough question. I know. And it wasn't on the list of what I sent you. I'm sorry. It just came to me. It's okay. I think probably one of my most remarkable and different experience is I walked the coastline of South Africa. Oh, you did? I don't know. I think it was probably some 15 or so years ago, maybe no more than that. Yeah. Almost 20 years ago walked the coastline, and we had hired a Xhosa guide, a native and walked. Yeah. That was really, truly a remarkable experience. And it was at a time. How long did that take you? How long did that take? It took us close to a month and a half, maybe. Okay. We lost the coastline and we stayed in local villages every night. And it was just really very a different experience than my travels, for instance, in Asia or Europe or in Central America or even in North America, for that matter. It was just really different. And it was a period after apartheid South Africa. And I remember the last day, our Xhosa guide, who is black, who is African. Right. And we were were hitchhiking back into town and we were picked up in a big van. I struggle with this Xhosa man. He was subjected to sitting in the back of this van where the luggage would be. All three of us looked at each other and we were pressing on time where we had to be. And we also saw this immediate injustice. Yeah. That's really painful because I bet looking back on it, I bet you might have some regret about how the whole thing went down. I knew it in the moment, Jen. I knew it in the moment. I knew it in the moment. And we all knew it in the moment. Our Xhosa guide, I reviewed him looking back on it, and I've spent so much time in Africa. So this really speaks to me a lot.

Looking back on it, do you think that there's something you could have done differently, or was that just the way that it was at that moment, particularly in that moment in time in South Africa right after apartheid?

I think we could have pushed the envelope with the people and said, thank you. But our guide sits with us. Yeah, this is our guide. Our guide sits with us. So I have regret for that, Jen. Yeah, definitely. I can empathize with that a lot. Well, one of the things that we were talking about before we started recording was the ability that different people have to actually speak up and say things. Right. And for me, I know that as a cisgendered white woman, I have an opportunity to speak out about things that someone like you, who identifies as a woman of color, as an immigrant, that you may not be able to do so comfortably.

And I'm curious if you would be open to talking a little bit about what you wish you would see in those spaces of privilege in terms of certain people speaking and other people not knowing that there are legitimate consequences for any human who says anything. But those consequences vary. If you were the boss of the whole world and you could I like to think about that sometimes. I'm like, oh, that'd be good. But if there was sort of a place where we could get to that would really create a more equitable, just world. Do you know what that might look like in terms of people using their voices?

Yeah, great question, Jen. Really thoughtful question. And I think about that actually, often. And that is actually one of the reasons why I do the Jedi trainings. Right. So that elevates the consciousness of my community as a whole so that we're living in a more just world. Yeah. And so there are degrees of things that individuals and systems can do. So if I who identify as a woman and a person of color, woman of color, an immigrant, English is not my first language. And I happen to be amongst people who have more privilege than me. Right. One thing that those individuals can do is they can elevate my voice when I'm speaking and say, you know, I see what you're saying. There's a lot of value to that. So if there's agreement there another thing is that don't leave the burden of education on these subjects on me. In other words, if you belong to a series of identities that holds power, you should leverage that as a conscious being to educate others. Right. So that I'm not the individual who's taking the arrows of vile verbs being directed at me. Right. Please help share the burden. That's huge. And then to work on dismantling systems that create inequities. Right. And that doesn't mean that you grow around and destroy society's institutions. Not at all. It's like, how do you work to recognize that some systems are set up so not everyone gets to participate. And what are you individually doing to break that apart? Those are all really I mean, thank you for that. All those things that we can do every day. Every day. And it can be the smallest little thing. It doesn't have to be this massive moving mountains. Like you can actually take tiny action every day. It's sort of that metaphor of the drops that create the ocean. Exactly. And I call it microhabits. These are my little daily microhabits of justice. I like that. Yeah, they're my little microhabits. I don't have to go take on big projects. And these are really small daily things I can do. And that could be elevating someone who's been historically excluded in snow sports to elevate their voice, giving them opportunities to come along on snow clinics where they otherwise would not even have access to you. Because, hey, you've got privilege. Use it.

So one of the things that we haven't really talked about yet is your age. And I feel comfortable saying that because I'm not that far behind you. I'm just a few years behind you. So this is actually a topic of conversation that I have a lot. And it's something that I think about a lot, too, because I'm sure you like I do feel fantastic. We feel like physically and mentally feel probably at the top of our game. And yet there is this reality that you have to face that society looks at you and you're older, you're old or older. You're not young. And I'm curious if you've had any of that reflection around being a woman in the outdoors of at the age of 50, if this is something that you think about, or is it something that really hasn't been something that has given you pause? One thing's for certain, we all age and we all age.

I feel very comfortable in my body, in my physical body, feel comfortable with having my hair be completely Gray and wear it long and be able to talk about that. I'm also Balding, and that in terms of my physical capabilities of what I was doing in my 20s and 30s and 40s is considerably different, perhaps at my 50s, although I really haven't since I turned 50, I haven't had a chance to really test that yet. But it's coming. It's going to come when I head to Kilimanjaro this year. But that being said, I had a very unique experience, Jen, when I was backpacking the Sierra some twelve years ago, and I had this maybe half hour connection on trail with this woman named Magdalena. And she was at that time probably in her 60s. She was a more mature woman, and she was backpacking with another more mature woman, K. And I was probably in my late 30s on a backpacking trip with a bunch of guys in the High Sierras for like a ten day backpacking trip. And instead of hiking out with the guys, I opted to linger back in trail so that I can walk back with these women. We just had an initial connection there. And looking into Magdalena's eyes and spending time with Kay, just walking those couple of miles together, I was able to see my future self in them. I saw that, oh, these physical activities don't just live in youth. They continue on for a maturing lifetime. And that gave me a glimpse into my future self that, oh, this is how one ages so beautifully and gracefully or can, depending on what one's will and desires and outcomes end up being. But meeting Magdalena and Kay just gave me that glimpse into my future self. Yeah. And that really speaks to how important it is to have a wide range of mentors and also just people represented in the outdoors and in society in general, because life doesn't stop until it stops for me. I want to have so many more years doing all of these things. I'm curious today, what advice would your mature self give a 25 year old? You?

Yeah, the advice I would give is take more risks. Take more risks for sure. And the one third rule. Right. Which is one third of the stuff that's like super easy, one third that's a bit of a stretch in your life. And then one third that's really risky and has high consequence of possible failure. But work hard and push yourself for that risk. And I think I came to that late in life in terms of thinking about taking more risks. And part of it is also my immigrant experience. Right. Where it's like you stay on the straight and narrow and you go into academics and you do this and don't take a lot of risk unless it's highly calculated risk and you're guaranteed success. So I'm mindful of that immigrant view into taking risks, speaking for myself. Right. Yeah. But I think I would give my 20 year old self take more risks. Take more risks. Yeah, take more risks. The comfort level people have with risk. And is it I'm comfortable with highly calculated risk that I think will put me in a position of being very successful. Are you comfortable with physical risk, of pushing yourself in the mountains? Is at risk of it doesn't actually matter how this turns out. I'm going to take it. There's so many ways to look at risk. It's different for everyone, right? It is. And it also depends on with respect to risk, like how your individual needs are being met. So if you are struggling with safety and security and food and your basic primal needs are not being met. Taking risks there has very severe consequences versus someone who's in Maslow's hierarchy of self actualization. And taking risk is considerably different. And I'm mindful of that. Yeah, absolutely. We've definitely over the last 30 minutes or so talked about your life's work and how diverse that work is. I'm curious if there's something or multiple things that you wish people knew about your life's work that may not be apparent on first glance about my life's work that may not be visible on first glance. I think I have a lot of stories built in my life that led to my life's work, particularly in the justice, equity, diversity and inclusion realm. Like, for instance, I went to an all boys school very early on in my life. When I took the Harvard implicit bias test many years ago, I had implicit bias towards Engender. Interesting. And I talk about it very openly and very freely because even though I do this work, I'm not sitting on some high and mighty platform like, oh, I am an evolved being. I do have to scrub my teeth on a daily basis, and I, too have to scrub my practices and my micro habits on a daily basis. And I'm also on a path of evolution and growth. Right. And so when that gender bias was revealed to me, it was like, I wonder where this comes from. And I did a lot of unpacking and looking back into how I arrived at a perspective, why do you see not enough women in math and Sciences? My background is in math and Sciences, and I was like, there's no barriers to women in math and science.

Yeah, exactly. I was here, I was with my Blinders on. Right. And so I had to do a lot of unpacking related to that side of my being. Yeah. But that's good. I appreciate those moments. Right. Where you have that self reflection and you have to say to yourself, you got to work on this. This is something that you need to understand why you think this way and you need to work on it. And that is like you said, that path of working evolving. It's not like there's not necessarily this end goal, like you're going to get one place and then you're done. It's just this constant growth.

That is so I mean, I find it's so critically important in the world that we live in. Like, we live in this hyper connected world where information is passed so quickly now that being able to be on that pathway of evolution is critical to our success and to our happiness. I think.

Spot on, Jen.But that's also part of being a leader. Right. And having leadership. Right. Yeah. I think self examination, self examination and looking at how do I continue to grow, and as long as I continue to grow and evolve, I have also an opportunity to commit to the growth of other people as well, to me, is leadership. Yeah.

Well, it's certainly a component of servant leadership, because if you look at that in particular, of how do you really provide for the people who are in your community? If you're not doing that self reflection and if you're not constantly evaluating how you're showing up as a servant leader, then you're doing a disservice to the very people who you're working with. You're absolutely spot on. A servant leader shares power, put the needs of the people around them first, and helps them develop and perform as highly as possible. And servant leaders. Right. They commit to being part of something transformational. Right. Yeah, I love that. I love that.

Yeah. This is freaking back. So I'm like going into this rabbit hole of all these things that I worked on in my graduate degree and just thinking about all these things and also just like the type of person I want to be, the type of leader that I want to be helpful conversation. All right. I have one more question for you, because we're kind of running out of time. I mean, I kind of feel like definitely this is not going to be the last time that we talked. I feel like the next time is going to have to be in real life, and it's going to have to be like a full on hang, because there's a lot we have a lot to go over. And I feel like we have a lot of time to make up for, like, the fact that this is our first conversation is a shame. So I feel like we have decades to make up for. But I will leave us with this last question that I really enjoy asking people. So I hope that you enjoy being asked it. What do you never get asked that you wish you could answer?

Because if you're anything like me, you're interviewed quite a bit and you oftentimes find that you're asked very similar questions. But I always find that there are things that I want to talk about that maybe other people may not find as interesting or doesn't come to them, or maybe it doesn't fit the script. But is there anything that you wish people would ask you?

This might sound. So I'm going to provide you two answers. Okay. I'm going to give a little personal detail about myself. I begin my day early in the morning looking at dog and cat videos of information. And the reason why especially it's dog videos in particular. I start my day is because it brings me so much joy. It's just this abundant, unconditional joy, and it hits the reset button for me every day.

I love it. Yeah. And then the other thing I think people don't know about me, and I wish I often would get asked, but doesn't really materialize, is that I have a deep interest in the construction, like constructing homes and designing homes. Oh, really? Yeah. And looking at my physical space through the lens of how I occupy it, and it's not a part I get to talk about in my outdoor industry world or in my electric energy industry world.

Yes. But I have a deep passion there. Is that something that you do professionally, or is it more on the passion, leisure side of things for you? It's a passion and leisure side. It's not on a professional side, although I've been asked about designing homes or providing feedback professionally. Yeah. No, it's a passion. I really think about my space and how I occupy physical space and the spaces I'm in the discerning eye how to make homes and buildings feel welcome, feel like you're really comfortable in them.

Well, I have to tell you, this does not surprise me at all, given that your life's work is making the outdoors feel welcome to everyone and that I'm serious and that the outdoors, the outdoors, we call the outdoors home and think about Indigenous people. And that like, the outdoors is not separate from us. It has never been separate from humans. Wilderness is a construct. It's never there's always been this connection between human and the land, humans and the land. So for you to be both impassioned by and conscientious around the walls that we put up around us, that create that physical barrier from the outdoors, that you would approach that with as much consciousness as you do with justice, equity, diversity and inclusion in the outdoors does not surprise me. That just makes sense to me.

That's so beautifully languaged, Jen. Thank you. That's really beautifully languaged. And I loved how you talked about the walls around us. Yeah, I really appreciate that. Thank you for languaging that so well. It's my pleasure. I'm thrilled I was able to do that today. And I want to thank you for taking the time to be on Juicy Bits podcast and chat with me. And I'm serious. I'm really looking forward to continuing these conversations and continuing building a relationship with you because since I've come to know that you are a human on this planet, I've been incredibly impressed with everything that you do. And in my quest to have less humans in my life, I'm always just looking for the cream of the crop that you want to keep around you. So I feel a little bit inspired to add another person into my life, if that's possible with you, to keep these conversations going. And I want to thank you for all the work that you do in the industry and being a role model to someone like me. So thank you, Jen. Thank you. Feeling is very mutual. And like I said earlier, it was just a matter of time that our paths would cross. And it's a great pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. And a shout out to you and the work you're doing. Yeah much gratitude for that. Thank you.

All right, everyone. I hope you've enjoyed this very special episode of juicy bits and if you want to hear more of things like this definitely shoot us an email and maybe we'll do a part two another time. So thank you everyone. See you next time.