I wanna welcome Dr. Molly Ness.
I met Dr. Ness about a few years ago.
She did a webinar for the International Literacy Association on the importance of read alouds, and she started with showing a picture of her and her students.
That reminded me a lot of a picture of.
Myself and my students when I was just starting out teaching, and so I was immediately drawn into Molly and her work around read alouds.
I reached out to her and she has been a great fan of reading is fundamental and a great support to us ever since then.
So welcome Dr. Ness.
Oh, thanks for having me.
It's so great to talk about read alouds, which are the thing that kids love doing, that teachers love doing, that parents mostly enjoy doing.
So, I'm glad to have some time to, to really talk about why do them.
Awesome.
Thank you.
I'd love for you to start with our listeners, just a little bit of your background and how did you get into read alouds and discover their importance, you know, beyond just the joy that they bring.
Sure.
So I really started, well, so of course I was a classroom teacher that did read alouds.
I did them as a after lunch and recess kind of come back into the classroom like.
Cool down, focus your body and energy on like afternoon learning.
And I sort of saw that having this kind of calming effect, I didn't know all of the language comprehension benefits of read alouds.
So when I was a professor.
I started really digging into what does language comprehension even mean?
In all of these conversations we're having today about the science of reading, there's been a lot of focus on word identification and phonics and decoding, but we know that reading is this multifaceted process and we have to do intentional work to have kids understand how to use language.
And understand how to make meaning out of language.
And really one of the best ways to do that is a read aloud.
And so once I started getting into the research about the linguistic and academic benefits, like I then just found this whole other slew of benefits that kind of just amazed me.
Physiological benefits, socio-emotional benefits, psychological benefits.
And I really wanted to to remind people of that.
Read alouds are not one of those things that like we wish we could do, or we give kids as a reward for when their behavior's great.
Like it's one of those must to get to do or want to do, have to do, should do all of those things.
And it's really the cornerstone of effective literacy instruction.
That resonates with me a lot thinking about even my own kids because, and I spoke with somebody else about this recently too, that read alouds shouldn't be something that you take away or hold to a time and like what you're describing, it's after recess.
But what if on this one day we have to do, you know, X, Y, and Z?
But what you're saying is don't cut out the read aloud.
And I know I, I've been tempted to even do it with.
My own child.
You know, it's night, it's getting late, and okay, we can finish watching this movie, but that means we're not reading two books tonight.
And I've had to reframe my thinking of it.
It has to be a given.
It's not something that you're gonna cut out.
Yeah and I'll say as a parent, I am guilty of.
Like all of the, you know, quote unquote punishments.
And the context that I always think of is many people are familiar with the beloved children's book, Ms. Nelson is missing, which I hear that they're making actually into a Netflix series with Melissa McCarthy playing Ms.
Nelson slash Ms. Villa Swamp.
Great book.
I love that book.
But and let me refresh people's memory of it.
There's these kids in school, they're misbehaving.
So their teacher, who is this lovely docile sweet woman, she decides something has to be done about their behavior, and so in their, in her place, the next day shows up this mean wicked, cruel substitute teacher.
And she puts them right to work and the first punishment she gives them is says, there will be no story hour today.
And I love that book for so many reasons.
Character study and inferencing and just all of it.
But the one thing I hate about that book is that the punishment is no story hour.
Because again, it's not one of those, oh, it's a reward.
Or it's the first thing to go when I'm busy or you know, kids are just having one of those days.
It's a must do, should do, have to do, get to do.
I love that.
And the other thing I love when you talk about is the importance of.
Of reading aloud from birth, and I'm even one of those moms who read aloud when, you know, when I was pregnant in the womb.
And I did it knowing in my heart that it was Right.
But you've shared some great research around that.
So I'd love if you can elaborate more.
What does research say about reading aloud to infants and toddlers, and what advice do you have for any parents that just are worried they're not gonna get it right.
Sure.
Well, your mom instinct was spot on in terms of reading to babies in utero.
Because what we're doing is first of all, familiarizing themselves with the.
Rhythm and prosody of language, and also just increasing any parent caregiver bonding.
But there's some pretty astounding studies that show that when babies are in the nicu, the neonatal intensive care unit when their parents and caregivers read to them, we see a decrease in their heart rate and an increase in their blood oxygen.
So in other words, these babies are literally like.
Living in this stressed environment, these incubators and all these wa wires and monitors and such.
And by reading aloud to them, we see medical homeostasis.
So, a calming effect on their blood rates, their respiratory rates, not just during the read aloud, but for up to an hour after the read aloud.
And that science has been got taken into account by lots of NICUs all over the country.
By places like the American Academy of Pediatrics, understanding how important it is to read aloud to babies literally from, you know, utero all the way up to, and I'll actually say we don't actually grow out of read alouds or age out of read alouds.
There's a reason the audio book industry is doing as well as it is because people enjoy read alouds and whatever format they're in.
And so it's not one of those like.
Oh, I'll do it until they're eight years old and then I'll, you know, take the read all out away.
Yeah, I love that.
I think what you're saying about adults loving read aloud too, resonates with me a lot.
And I've found, and I am sure there's some documentation about this too, that a lot of times adults love.
Of read alouds when it's a familiar voice reading it.
So maybe an actor that they know, or even the author themselves, and kids find that too.
Right?
Kids respond really well to when authors and illustrators read aloud their books to them.
Can you share a little bit about that?
Sure.
Yeah.
And there are like when we think about awards, seasons for TV shows and for films and such, there are audiobook awards for delivery.
If you've ever listened to like the Harry Potter series, the author.
Jim Dale always used to win all of the awards for his delivery of audio books and those read alouds.
So yeah, there's a absolutely a power in any experience readers of any age have when they interact with the author or illustrator.
So, there's a reason when you go to book fairs and authors do school visits that there is a connection.
See an increase in kids' identities as readers.
Like you go and you see, you know, the author of the I Survived series.
She was at a local book fair.
Your school brought her in or what have you, or even you watch a video of her doing the read aloud on YouTube.
You naturally gravitate towards those books again because you've had this personal connection and that personal connection may not necessarily, you know, they're not sitting next to you at the dining room table, but you're hearing their voice, you're hearing their background on why they chose it.
You're, you know, recounting the time that they signed the book and they gave it to you.
I noticed this myself when I am at conferences or bookstores and there's an author that is coming, I'm more eager to dive into those books.
And so, we absolutely have to create those interpersonal connections between readers of any age and the author and illustrator.
And I will say children's book authors and illustrators are so generous with their time and resources and really have facilitated that really just so well in places like retail rally and reading is fundamental.
So the more that we can do that, the better.
And the, what are we showing kids we're giving them?
A verification that they are a reader.
You are more likely to identify yourself as a reader when you have these interpersonal connections between yourself and the person, the creator of these books.
Absolutely, and I. As a child, I never had an author come speak to my school.
It's not an experience I had, but I know how impactful it is for kids.
And I think about myself as a child.
I was very artistic and I would've loved if an illustrator came and demonstrated how they illustrated the books.
And it's very tangible then to see yourself in that profession, to see yourself as a reader, a writer, an artist if you meet somebody and get to connect with them that way.
That you're talking about.
So, thank you for that.
So I wanna talk about the interactions that happen during read alouds.
So, as I mentioned, you know, I've been reading to my children since before they were even born.
What about families who haven't had those opportunities yet?
Are there ways that families and educators can help kids catch up if they haven't come from rich reading aloud experiences in their homes?
Well, I will say that it's never too late to start.
You can grab your 14-year-old and start the read aloud, and we have to push past this notion that there's a right or wrong.
Way to read aloud.
We're often, as parents told, like, oh, the bedtime story and read aloud before bedtime.
That may not work for every family and every home and every, you know, lifestyle.
So we have to make sure that parents and caregivers are getting the verification and the messaging that.
Make your read alouds work for you and for your schedule.
That also means that read aloud can be in a language other than English.
So I'm often asked by parents, I, you know, I can only read in Spanish.
Is that okay?
Yes.
It's amazing that you're reading to your child in that language.
When I work with parents and caregivers.
That don't consider themselves readers or maybe not literate themselves.
Wordless picture books are amazing.
You can grab a wordless picture book and create the story with your child and what are you doing there?
Bathing them in language structures and that shared interaction around a text.
That is a visual text, but we are still getting all of those benefits, so there's no right or wrong way.
It's never too late to start.
And there's just so many ways to do it in text that is engaging or relevant to the child.
I I'm super excited about like all of these different innovative programs around read alouds in my community.
There's a retirement center.
That the re folks from the retirement center will come and sit at the public library and they're paired with a struggling reader who's K through two, and they do some read aloud works.
There's all these now studies where kids are going to animal shelters or the pound and literally reading aloud to animals in the pound.
And why are they doing that?
Well.
Kids are getting fluency practice.
They are in a place that's safe and nonjudgmental.
They're getting all the benefits and you know, and as another side benefit, a lot of those dogs end up adopted.
So there's all these just creative ways to embrace the readout in different formats and ways.
So there isn't just this one way, it should look for every classroom or every home.
I appreciate that it can start anytime to that parent out there who's never read aloud with.
With the 14-year-old and the idea of a wordless picture book, I'm thinking even family photo albums are a great way it's similar to a wordless picture book, and you can read aloud by recreating the stories that went with the photos and the language piece too.
I think what people don't realize is a lot of things transfer from.
Different languages.
So some things like the directionality of print, the, you know, being able to point to a word, knowing the difference between a word and a picture.
These are things that, regardless of the language you know, kids can learn through reading aloud with their parent and they transfer very well to English reading development.
So, thank you.
Sure.
And when we talk.
When we talk about literacy is more than just reading and writing.
It's listening and speaking.
And so when you're talking about having them quote unquote read photo albums or tell the stories of their childhood, what are you getting?
Language, you're getting the listening and speaking, which is the springboard from which all other literacy experiences start.
Absolutely.
I'm gonna shift a little bit and throw out another word that our listeners might not be familiar with, and that is orthographic mapping.
So you've written extensively about read alouds, and then you had a new book come out about orthographic mapping.
And I'm a super nerd who was a big fan of orthographic mapping myself.
So when that book came out, I was like I love it.
Thank you, Dr. Molly Ness.
Can you.
Unpack it a little bit for our listeners.
What is orthographic mapping and what is the connection to read alouds if there is any?
Sure.
So, I mean, orthographic mapping, does that not sound like the coolest most, you know.
Approachable term ever.
Like I always get frustrated with in academia how we write these things that like live in these peer reviewed journals that don't actually really influence what goes on in a classroom in Nebraska on a Tuesday afternoon.
So I read the research around orthographic mapping back in grad school and it never really made its way into the hands of those who need it, which are classroom teachers and school leaders and orthographic mapping.
Is this invisible behind the scenes cognitive process by which we instantly recognize words.
So if you think about yourself as an adult reader, you spend almost no time during your everyday life.
Decoding words, almost every word that you encounter.
You recognize instantly, maybe, you know, if you're driving in a new state or a new town, you have to like decode multi-syllabic words.
Or if you're given a class roster, proper nouns, but for the most part, you've spent almost no time.
Decoding anything.
And why does that matter?
Because if you don't decode, you free up cognitive energy to focus on comprehension, which is really the point of reading.
So orthographic mapping explains how those words got into our long-term memory so that we instantly recognize them.
We know that adult readers have about 50,000 words that they instantly recognize they were not.
Acquired by memorizing words, so like what I did as a classroom teacher, which was flashcards.
Wrote memorization and write the spelling word three times.
It didn't help to make the word stick with orthographic mapping.
And it's kind of this trifecta of seeing a word, so looking at how it's spelled, hearing the word, so the phonology or the sound structure of the word, and then using the word, so knowing its application and its definition.
And when we have those three things that sort of glue onto each other.
The word becomes an instantly recognized word.
That's great.
Thank you.
And can that be taught to, I mean, I'm, as that gets taught a alongside.
Read alouds, so you can build that language comprehension through the read alouds.
That piece is always there because it's through your oral language, through your listening skills.
And then as readers start to grow in their orthographic mapping, those comprehension skills that they already had, their mind is being freed up to be able to comprehend the tech steeper.
Sure.
And as I do things like.
When readers are developing and as I read aloud to them and then point out the word to them so that they're seeing the representation of the word, they're hearing me say and pronounce the word, and then they're getting the understanding of how the word is defined or used from the context I'm building their ability to to orthographically map those words.
I hope that more teachers will start using it 'cause it's been around for a while, right?
Since the eighties or so.
Yeah.
Lya Airy wrote about it in the 1990s.
And Lya Airy is probably like, I mean, she's just this living literacy legend.
I gave a talk this past summer with my co-author Katie Pace, miles about orthographic mapping and Area was in the audience, and so the whole.
Talk is basically citing her research.
There's no anxiety like citing the research to the researcher in the in the second row.
And she's like the loveliest woman ever.
At one point somebody asked, in the audience, asked a question and my co-author and I sort of looked at each other and we said, Dr. A, would you like to answer this one for us?
And she gave this brilliant answer.
And when, you know, orthographic mapping.
You start to understand why some of the things we do in classrooms don't really help, like, you know, flashcards and writing, spelling words in alphabetical order and all of those things.
And you also start to understand why.
What looks like struggling readers their struggles are with comprehension.
So in other words I'm doing a lot of work now in middle schools and middle school teachers will say to me, my kids can't comprehend the science book or the social studies book.
Like, teach me a comprehension strategy to address that.
And I'll have to say, it's not actually a comprehension thing, it's that those kids don't have enough words.
Orthographically mapped.
They don't have a big enough body of instant words that they recognize.
So what they're doing is they're taking that precious cognitive energy, focusing in on decoding a word like filibuster or photosynthesis or some of those things that kids encounter.
And then what we see is this, they can't understand.
Really, they're just using up all of their energy and decoding so that they can't get to comprehension.
So once you start to understand orthographic mapping, you're like, okay, now I get why If I just teach comprehension strategies, I'm putting a bandaid on a gaping wound.
Yeah, absolutely.
And what you're describing is what's often referred to as the research to practice gap, and so we're looking at research that has been around for decades, but really isn't taking place.
Into classrooms until now.
Is there, I mean, what can we do about that?
Yeah, so it's something I think about all the time.
And this research shows, particularly in social sciences like education, it's usually about to 10 to 20 years between when something appears in a peer reviewed journal and then actually makes its way into curriculum or publisher creative materials or just the general classroom practice.
And then at that point.
Research has moved into a different direction.
So what can we do about it?
Well, first of all, I think we are at an exciting time in the literacy landscape.
And by that, I mean, never in my career of 30 years have people been clamoring for the research in the way that they are now.
And I love that, that now when I can't get away, like when I give a talk.
10 years ago, I used to be able to say like, research shows and not really cite it and just have this blanket statement.
Now people are like looking under the hood and kicking the tires and they're like, show me the research.
And good for them.
Like I, I love that people are.
Are being critical consumers because that's where change and transformation happens.
And so, I think there's so many different ways that we're bridging the research to practice gap in terms of webinars and podcasts.
And I know I always joke that the way that I do it at the individual level is I violate copyright law and send these articles out to people who ask.
I hope my sister is not listening to this podcast because the great irony is that she's actually a copyright lawyer.
And so when she finds out that like if somebody emails me and is like, Hey, can you send me the 2015 PDF of whatever, I'm like, here you go.
Which you're not technically supposed to do.
So now I've totally confessed and like the copyright police are like knocking on my front door.
So I think there are things that we can individually do as well as collectively do to really narrow the research to practice pipeline.
I couldn't agree more.
And I mean, there's something to be said too about who does research belong to.
And I think research belongs to everyone.
And I love that too.
Be I, because I used to teach a course on reading and literacy research and what I would say the very first day of.
Class is, you know, regardless of what kind of individual theory or philosophy you as an educator is going to develop about reading instruction, I want you to become critical consumers of research.
And I do see that happening more, and I think it's is because of the different channels that we're using now.
We can break down research on webinars, on podcasts, on ways that it's easily accessible for people.
And it's great that they do come to you and wanna read the original.
Article as well, but I think those kinds of things should be more open access.
I think, you know, I go to a lot of conferences that are research focused conferences.
There's hardly ever educators there.
I think we should do more more together.
Yeah and it, for the people who are on the flip side of being the consumers of research, I always tell people, reach out.
If you find so and so wrote this article that like you're dying to read, but when you go and Google it, you come to this paywall.
Email that person, I promise Dr. Soandso will gladly send it because they're like, oh my gosh, somebody actually cares that I wrote something about orthographic mapping or whatever.
You wanna read it?
Here you go.
So I've never had the experience where res of researchers themselves haven't gotten back to me to share out their work and contribu.
Absolutely.
So you mentioned, you know, now is a really great time and literacy and research.
What should educators and families be.
Paying attention to over the next three to five years.
What excites you in the literacy research space?
So I am super excited how interdisciplinary the conversations about literacy have become.
I mean, I've lived in this little reading bubble for, again, three decades and never in my career have there been.
Podcasts and documentary films and conferences in the New York Times and all of these people looking at conversations about literacy and I mean people from lots of different.
Seats at the table, pediatricians, sociologists, psychologists, all of these people are coming to the table and saying reading matters so much, not only to individual children and their life trajectory, but so much to our global output, our economic health, our society, that we gotta get it right and we have to be interdisciplinary in the way that we share our knowledge and transform this.
So I'm super excited about that interdisciplinary focus.
And I think we're starting to see what began as conversations really at the K through two level are starting to gain traction and move up into grade levels.
I'm doing some work, as I said, at middle schools and people are really saying like, okay, this whole science of reading thing, like what's it mean for me as a seventh grade biology teacher or a 10th grade history teacher?
And that's when we really start to have.
Great conversations about effective literacy instruction across content areas and across grade levels.
Yeah, we used to say at my school, every teacher is a reading teacher and every teacher needs to be prepared to support reading because every domain, every discipline uses reading to some.
Degree.
So I agree.
This is our last question.
Since this podcast is called Reading Inspires.
I always end by asking our guest, what does Reading inspire for you?
Oh wow.
How long do you have reading inspires?
Well, I'll kind of answer it as my personal reading.
Obviously I do a lot of professional reading.
If you look at.
What I'm reading on a daily basis, it's meta-analyses and it's the latest research, so obviously that inspires my intellectual curiosity, but my personal reading.
Is not particularly.
Let's see, lofty.
And by that I mean I'm reading a lot of like beach lit and, you know, chick lit. And you know, right now I'm reading the latest Dan Brown mystery book.
And I used to feel kind of bad about it because like, it's not necessarily, you know, withering heights or it's not this like high value high.
You know, conversation, like you don't go to a cocktail party.
Not that I go to cocktail parties anymore, but you know, you don't sort of say like, oh yeah, I'm just, you know, plowing through the newest, you know, mystery book.
It's, you're not ex, there's a little bit of a judgment.
And I will say for now, my personal reading brings about rejuvenation and just a.
A respite from the reality of the world as well as my intellectual intellectually overstimulated brain.
So.
I'm trying to give myself some grace and say like, okay, we gravitate towards whatever kind of book that we need at certain points of our lives.
And right now my personal reading, I'm gravitating towards the brain candy sort of stuff and that's okay.
And maybe someday I'll wanna read, you know, war and Peace, but it's not that time now.
And I think we, the grace that I often ask us as parents and as teachers to have and not passing judgment on our kids as readers.
We also have to give to ourselves as readers and be okay with whatever we're reading in whatever time.
I'm sure all of our listeners appreciate that permission, the same way we give permission to our children to read what brings you joy and what inspires you in that moment and your living proof of that.
Thank you so much, Molly.
My pleasure.