WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.448 --> 00:00:08.458 Dallas Campbell: Hello and welcome to In-Orbit, the podcast exploring how 00:00:08.458 --> 00:00:12.668 technology from space is empowering a better world, brought to you by 00:00:12.668 --> 00:00:14.768 the Satellite Applications Catapult. 00:00:14.868 --> 00:00:19.688 I'm your host, Dallas Campbell, and today in our series finale, I'm sitting 00:00:19.688 --> 00:00:24.748 down one to one with the CEO of the Satellite Applications Catapult. 00:00:24.768 --> 00:00:28.328 It's John Abbott, and we're going to be reflecting on John's career 00:00:28.328 --> 00:00:31.578 journey, what brought him into the space industry to lead the Catapult, 00:00:31.998 --> 00:00:34.098 and the vision he has for the future. 00:00:34.298 --> 00:00:37.878 Plus, we'll discuss the importance of building a learning culture in business, 00:00:37.878 --> 00:00:41.340 the power of collaboration, whether with governments, non space companies, or 00:00:41.340 --> 00:00:46.330 academia, and explore the technologies shaping the next generation of the sector. 00:00:48.046 --> 00:00:48.646 Hello, John. 00:00:48.809 --> 00:00:49.909 John Abbott: Hi Dallas, nice to meet you. 00:00:50.289 --> 00:00:51.389 Dallas Campbell: Very nice to meet you. 00:00:51.419 --> 00:00:53.989 Well, listen, thank you very much for coming on the podcast for 00:00:53.989 --> 00:00:56.399 our grand finale actually, this is our last one of the series. 00:00:56.694 --> 00:00:59.101 I was thinking about this, I was talking to my mum, and she was saying, 00:00:59.101 --> 00:01:01.511 oh, I was, I'm doing a thing for the Satellite Applications Catapult and 00:01:01.511 --> 00:01:02.459 she was like, what on earth is that? 00:01:02.784 --> 00:01:05.264 And it's actually quite a strange name, I suppose. 00:01:05.664 --> 00:01:08.104 I mean, we're kind of used to it, so we don't even think about it, but Satellite 00:01:08.144 --> 00:01:12.004 Applications Catapult and I was wondering, perhaps you could, for my mum's benefit, 00:01:12.157 --> 00:01:13.367 How would you sort of sum it up? 00:01:13.527 --> 00:01:16.067 Like if you're talking to somebody who's never heard that term before? 00:01:16.194 --> 00:01:18.215 John Abbott: For me, I would go to our purpose. 00:01:18.490 --> 00:01:22.310 So our purpose is to grow the UK economy. 00:01:22.547 --> 00:01:23.547 So that's why we're here. 00:01:24.102 --> 00:01:24.762 Dallas Campbell: Love that. 00:01:25.532 --> 00:01:26.562 John Abbott: Yeah, good idea! 00:01:26.622 --> 00:01:30.677 Aligns with the new government's missions, which is always It's an 00:01:30.677 --> 00:01:34.011 independent company, but we are funded by Innovate UK, so we're one 00:01:34.011 --> 00:01:35.691 of nine catapults across the country. 00:01:36.091 --> 00:01:39.901 Ours focused on satellite applications in space, others focused in other 00:01:39.901 --> 00:01:43.328 areas, typically high growth opportunities for the UK, so high 00:01:43.348 --> 00:01:47.948 value manufacturing, medicines, discovery, cell and gene therapy, 00:01:48.151 --> 00:01:49.921 offshore renewable energy, and so on. 00:01:49.921 --> 00:01:54.314 So we as a group are all set up to help grow the UK economy. 00:01:54.314 --> 00:01:59.439 For us, it's grow the UK economy, purpose through working with the best 00:01:59.869 --> 00:02:02.329 companies to accelerate the invention. 00:02:02.399 --> 00:02:09.239 So help people invent new space technology and adoption of space data and technology. 00:02:09.259 --> 00:02:13.733 So we have this dual role to, in service of growing the economy, help people 00:02:14.083 --> 00:02:18.263 invent more quickly, help them take risks that they might not otherwise be able 00:02:18.263 --> 00:02:22.853 to take, provide them with facilities to do that, support to do that and then 00:02:22.853 --> 00:02:26.427 help drive the adoption of space data and technology for the benefit of the economy. 00:02:26.517 --> 00:02:30.072 So we're really here in the service of the space sector and in the service 00:02:30.072 --> 00:02:34.338 of the UK economy in terms of growing adoption of space data and tech. 00:02:34.537 --> 00:02:37.251 Dallas Campbell: And maybe you could just give us a couple of sentences, I suppose 00:02:37.251 --> 00:02:40.727 on, I mean, it's something we talk about a lot, But just how important is the 00:02:40.727 --> 00:02:44.133 space sector in terms of the UK economy? 00:02:44.193 --> 00:02:45.653 Or in terms of the global economy? 00:02:45.877 --> 00:02:49.547 John Abbott: So almost every industry is reliant in some way on the space sector. 00:02:49.587 --> 00:02:55.090 So whether that's for navigation, so delivery and so on, whether That's timing 00:02:55.109 --> 00:03:00.579 that supports our, energy systems, our banking, finance, insurance sectors. 00:03:01.036 --> 00:03:04.916 Overall, the space sector underpins about 360 billion pounds worth 00:03:04.916 --> 00:03:06.376 of economic activity in the UK. 00:03:06.376 --> 00:03:10.786 So if you lose space, you're talking about damage to the UK economy, 00:03:10.786 --> 00:03:11.946 about a billion pounds a day. 00:03:12.369 --> 00:03:12.969 Dallas Campbell: A billion pounds. 00:03:13.133 --> 00:03:16.149 I always say this, I mean I'm not overstating it when I say 00:03:16.149 --> 00:03:19.416 that modern civilisation is built on the space industry. 00:03:19.416 --> 00:03:23.181 Without the space industry, modern civilisation, as we know, it 00:03:23.226 --> 00:03:24.486 would not be able to function. 00:03:24.656 --> 00:03:24.956 John Abbott: Yeah. 00:03:25.001 --> 00:03:30.253 So, you can absolutely reasonably describe space as critical national infrastructure. 00:03:30.253 --> 00:03:33.283 So, I've worked in other organisations where we are critical national 00:03:33.283 --> 00:03:35.639 infrastructure and space is, no different. 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:36.834 We underpin the economy basically. 00:03:37.849 --> 00:03:39.233 Dallas Campbell: Well, let's, let's talk about your background then 00:03:39.263 --> 00:03:41.041 because you weren't a space person. 00:03:41.410 --> 00:03:44.810 what were you doing before you joined, the Satellite Applications Catapult? 00:03:45.245 --> 00:03:48.845 John Abbott: So, my background's more on digital transformation. 00:03:48.845 --> 00:03:53.080 So I began my early part of my career, strangely enough, modeling infectious 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:55.000 diseases with the Department of Health. 00:03:55.130 --> 00:03:58.375 So working with, folks to figure out what would happen if there was a 00:03:58.375 --> 00:03:58.885 pandemic. 00:03:58.900 --> 00:03:59.930 Dallas Campbell: kind of pandemic something. 00:03:59.930 --> 00:04:00.590 John Abbott: Yeah, exactly. 00:04:00.590 --> 00:04:04.498 so through that, got into geospatial information systems, spent some time 00:04:04.498 --> 00:04:08.078 at Ordnance Survey, working in their research labs, and then eventually 00:04:08.078 --> 00:04:09.624 becoming a product manager for them. 00:04:09.736 --> 00:04:14.887 Then moved to a company named Mimecaster, a UK tech company, that works on 00:04:14.927 --> 00:04:19.997 email security and archiving, and then, moved into the land registry 00:04:19.997 --> 00:04:23.017 in the UK to run a big digital transformation programme for them. 00:04:23.287 --> 00:04:27.431 So, got involved in blockchain and innovation and working with startups 00:04:27.431 --> 00:04:30.687 and so on and then from there, what I've been doing for the last few years 00:04:30.687 --> 00:04:34.447 before joining the catapult was working in Saudi Arabia for the Sovereign 00:04:34.447 --> 00:04:37.207 Wealth Fund, building a land registry. 00:04:37.437 --> 00:04:42.757 So, land rights in Saudi Arabia are reasonably complicated, and 00:04:42.807 --> 00:04:46.147 there are 200 different deeds registry offices across the country. 00:04:46.744 --> 00:04:49.834 The majority of those deeds are in paper form, and there are lots of 00:04:49.864 --> 00:04:53.694 complications around kind of really understanding who owns this piece of land. 00:04:54.294 --> 00:04:58.327 So we created a company and then started a programme of what's called First 00:04:58.327 --> 00:05:01.177 Registration, where we're establishing land rights for the whole of the kingdom. 00:05:01.947 --> 00:05:07.187 Doing that involved doing all sorts of interesting work with satellite data. 00:05:07.187 --> 00:05:11.137 So, Earth Observation Data and using AI to automatically identify features, 00:05:11.137 --> 00:05:14.252 things like that, as well as, you know, drone and aerial imagery. 00:05:14.742 --> 00:05:17.102 But I did that for three years and then came back to the UK and then 00:05:17.182 --> 00:05:18.642 took this job in the Catapult. 00:05:18.662 --> 00:05:23.215 So although I'm not from the space sector, I've done a lot of work on 00:05:23.475 --> 00:05:26.065 innovation, a lot of work working with venture capitalists, a lot of work 00:05:26.065 --> 00:05:31.151 working with startups, a lot of work to try and help, technologies, particularly 00:05:31.151 --> 00:05:33.111 geospatial technologies, get adopted. 00:05:33.423 --> 00:05:36.723 So I think that's one of the things that I bring to the Catapult, 00:05:36.723 --> 00:05:38.193 this sort of fresh pair of eyes... 00:05:38.539 --> 00:05:41.489 Dallas Campbell: And good humour and general bonhomme. 00:05:41.689 --> 00:05:42.389 John Abbott: Absolutely. 00:05:42.429 --> 00:05:43.469 Yeah, I like to think so. 00:05:43.936 --> 00:05:46.706 Dallas Campbell: Every time I interview anyone on this programme, my mind is 00:05:46.716 --> 00:05:50.286 well and truly boggled by just the extent to which the space industry is, 00:05:50.336 --> 00:05:52.053 kind of responsible now for everything. 00:05:52.383 --> 00:05:55.574 What do you, I mean, we've done a few examples of, that from Earth 00:05:55.574 --> 00:05:57.474 observation and, Navigation and things. 00:05:57.524 --> 00:06:01.324 what's your kind of opinion of the current space industry globally at the moment? 00:06:01.354 --> 00:06:02.184 Like where are we? 00:06:02.184 --> 00:06:03.224 Where are we heading? 00:06:03.234 --> 00:06:04.184 Where have we come from? 00:06:04.404 --> 00:06:06.534 You know, are we at some kind of peak now? 00:06:06.534 --> 00:06:11.478 Or we at the beginning of an entire new world of amazing things? 00:06:11.723 --> 00:06:15.139 John Abbott: Yeah, so maybe it's worth just starting in the UK, and then talking 00:06:15.139 --> 00:06:16.519 about the opportunity that we have. 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.323 So for me, again, as somebody new to the sector, we have some 00:06:19.323 --> 00:06:21.003 amazing companies in the UK. 00:06:21.003 --> 00:06:26.783 So, folks like Orbex up in Scotland, building a net zero launch platform, 00:06:27.223 --> 00:06:31.513 and folks like BioOrbit, thinking about how we can develop drugs in space, folks 00:06:31.513 --> 00:06:35.224 like OpenCosmos, launching satellites but also with a new business model 00:06:35.224 --> 00:06:40.509 around how we capture data from space and then also more established companies 00:06:40.549 --> 00:06:45.989 like, Talispatio and Airbus working, with us and many other partners to make 00:06:45.989 --> 00:06:49.619 things like Earth Observation Data more accessible to people through projects 00:06:49.619 --> 00:06:51.429 like our Earth Observation Data Hub. 00:06:51.449 --> 00:06:55.029 So there's a lot to like, there's a lot of really exciting companies doing 00:06:55.029 --> 00:06:56.848 really exciting things in the UK. 00:06:57.086 --> 00:07:00.726 But at the same time, we've got some challenges in the UK and we 00:07:00.726 --> 00:07:02.555 probably don't talk about this enough. 00:07:02.555 --> 00:07:05.905 We've been thinking about this as we develop our thinking on what we 00:07:05.905 --> 00:07:07.735 might be doing over the next 10 years. 00:07:08.241 --> 00:07:13.311 The sector in the UK is sort of about 1, 500 people, 1,500-1,800 companies, 00:07:13.311 --> 00:07:17.923 depending you sort of calculate them and the vast majority of them are small 00:07:17.933 --> 00:07:20.883 companies that are failing to grow what we used to call when I was at business 00:07:20.883 --> 00:07:25.973 school, at least lifestyle businesses with an average revenue of, something like less 00:07:25.973 --> 00:07:30.413 than, I think 600 of those got an average revenue of less than, 80, 000 pounds 00:07:30.413 --> 00:07:34.293 and the thousand of them got average revenue of less than 250, 000 pounds. 00:07:34.713 --> 00:07:40.223 So there's a buoyant sector or space sector in the UK is this sort of headline, 00:07:40.223 --> 00:07:44.263 but really when you dig into the numbers, you realise that, there's an awful lot of 00:07:44.263 --> 00:07:47.953 the space sector in the UK that are not high growth, high potential businesses. 00:07:48.043 --> 00:07:48.853 Dallas Campbell: That's interesting. 00:07:49.138 --> 00:07:50.198 So let me just understand that. 00:07:50.198 --> 00:07:54.718 So lots and lots of small companies with lots of grand ideas and visions and 00:07:54.798 --> 00:07:55.948 all kinds of things, but they're not... 00:07:56.063 --> 00:07:58.053 John Abbott: They're not breaking out, yeah, exactly. 00:07:58.103 --> 00:08:01.558 Dallas Campbell: And why, so why I'm interested in why that is, is it because 00:08:01.558 --> 00:08:03.088 of Britain what are those reasons? 00:08:04.095 --> 00:08:07.105 John Abbott: So something like 70 percent of the income is going to 1 percent 00:08:07.195 --> 00:08:12.015 of those 1500 to 1800 companies and 80 percent of the investment is going to 2 00:08:12.275 --> 00:08:15.795 percent of those 1500 to 1800 companies. 00:08:16.235 --> 00:08:20.145 So we are concentrating our income and our investment around a relatively 00:08:20.145 --> 00:08:22.645 small space sector in the UK. 00:08:23.195 --> 00:08:26.305 But we are distributing our grant funding across 40 percent 00:08:26.305 --> 00:08:28.335 of those 1, 800 companies. 00:08:28.925 --> 00:08:35.032 So for me, what we as a country ought to be doing is really thinking about which 00:08:35.032 --> 00:08:39.842 of those 1, 800 companies aspire to be a high growth, high potential business 00:08:40.352 --> 00:08:43.692 and crowding our funding, whether that's grant funding or investment around them. 00:08:44.332 --> 00:08:45.682 So I think that's the challenge. 00:08:45.682 --> 00:08:49.275 We're spreading our grant money too thinly across too broad a section of the market. 00:08:49.680 --> 00:08:52.390 But the private money, if you like, the income and the investment is 00:08:52.400 --> 00:08:55.790 going towards the best, if you like, companies in the sector, and we 00:08:55.790 --> 00:08:59.191 ought to be a bit more focused around where spending our grant money. 00:08:59.601 --> 00:09:01.001 So, that's sort of the UK. 00:09:01.041 --> 00:09:02.401 There's also some other challenges. 00:09:03.107 --> 00:09:05.357 There's talk around consolidation, some of the larger companies. 00:09:05.357 --> 00:09:10.147 So, on the one hand, we have some fantastic British companies doing 00:09:10.147 --> 00:09:11.347 some really interesting things. 00:09:11.787 --> 00:09:16.281 But we also have these challenges around our sector as a whole and, and making 00:09:16.281 --> 00:09:19.461 sure the companies with the highest potential get the support they need 00:09:19.521 --> 00:09:21.251 to grow as effectively as possible. 00:09:21.411 --> 00:09:21.471 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:09:22.101 --> 00:09:25.372 Can I just ask while we're on that, you mentioned grants, how does the sort of 00:09:25.372 --> 00:09:27.434 funding structure work at the Catapult? 00:09:27.484 --> 00:09:30.215 John Abbott: Yeah, so we are one of nine under Innovate UK. 00:09:30.235 --> 00:09:34.525 We're lucky enough to receive a grant from Innovate UK that we're able to use 00:09:35.023 --> 00:09:39.698 to invest in sort of high risk projects as well as to build facilities and to take 00:09:39.708 --> 00:09:41.718 care of some of the back office expenses. 00:09:42.078 --> 00:09:47.478 In addition to that grant, we will also go out and win government grants 00:09:47.608 --> 00:09:51.768 from people like the Department for Science, Innovation, Technology, UK Space 00:09:51.768 --> 00:09:54.288 Agency, and also commercial contracts. 00:09:54.298 --> 00:09:58.308 So, people will pay us for advice or to develop some, technology 00:09:58.308 --> 00:09:59.228 with them, things like that. 00:09:59.541 --> 00:10:01.201 so we're funded in three ways. 00:10:01.511 --> 00:10:08.321 Every time a core grant is designed to be used to support us in supporting 00:10:08.331 --> 00:10:13.653 the sector as a whole, the grants that we go off and win, we win 00:10:13.653 --> 00:10:13.819 those as parts of consortiums. 00:10:15.419 --> 00:10:20.616 So, we are winning that money sort of on behalf of the team to pull a consortium 00:10:20.616 --> 00:10:23.826 together of different companies, some of whom we've probably already 00:10:23.826 --> 00:10:28.386 mentioned, then we'll distribute those funds around that consortium, so that 00:10:28.386 --> 00:10:31.646 we all kind of get a benefit from doing this collaborative project and moving 00:10:31.646 --> 00:10:36.206 it forward and then the commercial money, again, oftentimes we will be 00:10:36.206 --> 00:10:40.306 working with other partners to deliver those contracts, or indeed helping 00:10:40.540 --> 00:10:44.960 non space sector companies get access to some of the companies that we're 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:46.510 mentioning in the UK space sector. 00:10:47.540 --> 00:10:49.040 So that's us in the UK. 00:10:49.750 --> 00:10:52.996 I do, however, think that, as you well know, as we've covered in the 00:10:53.506 --> 00:10:57.326 podcast, I think previously with things like, Starship dropping the 00:10:57.356 --> 00:11:01.130 cost of launch or about to drop the cost of launch really significantly. 00:11:01.130 --> 00:11:05.320 We are on the cusp of a, an explosion of growth, in the space sector. 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:10.175 So, there's an opportunity for the UK to really maximise our share 00:11:10.175 --> 00:11:11.885 of that, that ever growing pie. 00:11:12.085 --> 00:11:16.258 so the thing that excites me most of all about the opportunity for us as a 00:11:16.258 --> 00:11:20.348 sector in the UK is, In Orbit Servicing and Manufacturing, some fantastic 00:11:20.358 --> 00:11:24.125 companies do work in that area and a real opportunity for us to play a 00:11:24.125 --> 00:11:26.405 leading role in the In Orbit Economy. 00:11:26.870 --> 00:11:28.460 Dallas Campbell: yeah, I'll come on to that in a minute. 00:11:28.460 --> 00:11:31.977 I just want to mention Starship because as we're recording this, The booster 00:11:32.127 --> 00:11:37.057 came back down to Earth and didn't just land on legs like the Falcon 9, I mean, 00:11:37.057 --> 00:11:38.207 crikey, that was only a few years ago. 00:11:38.207 --> 00:11:40.219 I remember when I saw the Falcon come back. 00:11:41.079 --> 00:11:42.257 I thought, this is magic. 00:11:42.447 --> 00:11:43.767 They played the video backwards. 00:11:44.140 --> 00:11:44.890 was so revolutionary. 00:11:45.060 --> 00:11:47.985 Anyway, the Starship, came back and was caught by the chopstick 00:11:47.985 --> 00:11:49.245 arms of the launch tower. 00:11:49.855 --> 00:11:53.125 I was watching with my mom talking about all this kind of stuff, and actually 00:11:53.125 --> 00:11:54.265 her reaction was really interesting. 00:11:54.265 --> 00:11:55.372 Was like, well, why? 00:11:55.402 --> 00:11:56.482 Like, what is the point? 00:11:57.422 --> 00:12:00.212 And actually, well, the point is that you don't need landing legs, which 00:12:00.212 --> 00:12:03.542 makes the rocket lighter, which means you can put more mass into orbit, which 00:12:03.542 --> 00:12:06.466 means things become cheaper, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah and actually that that. 00:12:06.516 --> 00:12:11.846 innovation, crazy as it seems, is completely necessary if we, certainly 00:12:12.056 --> 00:12:15.536 from an economic point of view, if we want space to be economic and we 00:12:15.536 --> 00:12:20.376 want it to help the economy, that kind of innovation is really, radical 00:12:20.376 --> 00:12:23.536 innovation is really, really important and it kind of gets forgotten. 00:12:23.566 --> 00:12:24.966 It gets a bit lost in the story. 00:12:25.256 --> 00:12:29.392 Like no one's talked about why the arms of the launch tower have to catch the rocket. 00:12:29.392 --> 00:12:30.702 But I think it's pretty fundamental. 00:12:30.982 --> 00:12:32.752 John Abbott: Yeah, agree, agree entirely. 00:12:33.252 --> 00:12:35.044 I think I wasn't quite as smart as your mum because I was 00:12:35.044 --> 00:12:35.322 just watching the video agog. 00:12:35.438 --> 00:12:36.212 watching the video agog. 00:12:36.662 --> 00:12:41.595 it changes the game for all sorts of parts of the sort of emerging In Orbit, sector. 00:12:41.852 --> 00:12:43.852 Dallas Campbell: I wanted to talk to you a little bit about innovation because we 00:12:43.852 --> 00:12:46.780 talked about funding and the importance of funding, good companies, interesting 00:12:46.780 --> 00:12:51.096 companies, but I I suppose SpaceX, they're a bit kind of Marmite SpaceX. 00:12:51.106 --> 00:12:54.526 You know, I'll talk to aeronautical engineers who get crossed about SpaceX and 00:12:54.976 --> 00:12:58.996 they don't like Elon Musk and all those sorts of political things, but ultimately, 00:12:59.416 --> 00:13:00.836 innovation's kind of at the heart. 00:13:00.916 --> 00:13:06.436 they genuinely have revolutionised the getting stuff into orbit sector by 00:13:06.436 --> 00:13:09.956 making it cheaper and I'm interested from our point of view, like how important 00:13:10.026 --> 00:13:14.186 fostering innovation, that kind of radical thinking, new thinking is. 00:13:15.011 --> 00:13:16.991 John Abbott: Yeah, so for us as an organisation, I think 00:13:16.991 --> 00:13:19.711 we think about two things. 00:13:20.291 --> 00:13:24.208 So innovation can be the development of a new technology. 00:13:24.260 --> 00:13:30.401 But likewise, innovation can be applying an existing technology to a new problem. 00:13:30.601 --> 00:13:35.628 So, we've done some really interesting work in Northern Ireland, around Loch Ney. 00:13:35.748 --> 00:13:40.288 So, Loch Ney provides something like, 60 percent of the drinking water for 00:13:40.288 --> 00:13:43.798 Belfast and 40 percent of the drinking water for the rest of Northern Ireland. 00:13:44.288 --> 00:13:47.618 There's an algae bloom that comes every summer into Loch Ney because of 00:13:47.618 --> 00:13:51.839 the phosphates that have run into the loch and that causes real problems 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:56.439 for the water, for the aquaculture, for folks going on to the loch. 00:13:56.989 --> 00:14:01.576 Bits of the bloom snap off and then go and sort of interfere with the beaches, 00:14:01.586 --> 00:14:06.561 so they have to shut beaches and we've been working with them to think about 00:14:06.561 --> 00:14:10.801 how you can use earth observation, data to track this algae bloom. 00:14:10.801 --> 00:14:14.671 So you're able to kind of advise people not to fish over there or not to swim 00:14:14.671 --> 00:14:19.654 over there, sort of in good time and they built a solution around that and 00:14:19.654 --> 00:14:23.894 the next step is then to model where the algae bloom's going to go next, 00:14:23.894 --> 00:14:27.524 so using weather data and so on to say well it's off towards this beach 00:14:27.524 --> 00:14:29.324 and we'll therefore close this beach. 00:14:29.944 --> 00:14:34.084 So for us when we think about innovation we think about, okay, for sure there's 00:14:34.084 --> 00:14:37.678 a role of a Catapult to get some new technology to market, to get it 00:14:37.678 --> 00:14:40.364 developed, to take it from the workbench and turn it into the first version of 00:14:40.364 --> 00:14:45.384 a product, but there's also a role to drive adoption of existing technology 00:14:45.384 --> 00:14:49.861 into these new areas and both are equally valid bits of innovation if you like. 00:14:50.453 --> 00:14:52.983 Dallas Campbell: One thing you mentioned I'd like to talk about is, an area we 00:14:52.983 --> 00:14:56.823 covered on the podcast, which is In Orbit Servicing, Assembly and Manufacture. 00:14:56.916 --> 00:15:00.026 You mentioned that and it seems to be something that we are certainly in the 00:15:00.026 --> 00:15:02.479 UK really sort of pushing as a thing. 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:05.379 Maybe you could talk a little bit about that and where we are with it 00:15:05.379 --> 00:15:07.349 and why it's exciting and interesting. 00:15:07.889 --> 00:15:10.428 John Abbott: Yeah so for me personally, it's exciting because 00:15:10.428 --> 00:15:14.595 of, well, it's, not dissimilar to the Starship and the Chopsticks. 00:15:14.595 --> 00:15:16.385 It's almost like we are living in the future. 00:15:16.415 --> 00:15:22.307 So there is an opportunity for us to start to build, large structures in space and 00:15:22.317 --> 00:15:26.924 to develop, things in space that either aren't possible to develop on Earth. 00:15:26.954 --> 00:15:33.166 So new medicines, perhaps or to move parts of industry from Earth into space. 00:15:33.176 --> 00:15:37.198 So we spun a company out of the Catapult that's looking to build 00:15:37.458 --> 00:15:39.748 a solar power station, in orbit. 00:15:39.978 --> 00:15:45.821 So, it will be able to capture 365 days of the year, 24 hours a day, solar energy, 00:15:45.831 --> 00:15:48.021 and then direct it back down to Earth to 00:15:48.461 --> 00:15:50.477 Dallas Campbell: You collect the solar panels, and then you beam 00:15:50.477 --> 00:15:53.837 it down via microwave, which I know worries lots of people. 00:15:53.867 --> 00:15:55.294 John Abbott: Yeah, that's how the tech works. 00:15:55.317 --> 00:15:58.957 the microwaves might sound worrying, but actually they're, if you were 00:15:58.957 --> 00:16:01.637 hit by them, there's something like, there's no different from having a warm 00:16:01.637 --> 00:16:03.177 day in the sun without the sunburn. 00:16:03.197 --> 00:16:06.327 So, sounds perhaps more worrying than it actually is. 00:16:06.817 --> 00:16:10.061 for me, the idea that have this kind of endless source of power that can 00:16:10.061 --> 00:16:14.792 be directed to whatever on earth is required, is a fantastic idea. 00:16:14.822 --> 00:16:19.972 So space offers some hope to us, to solve some of our grandest challenges 00:16:19.972 --> 00:16:22.992 I think, and space solar would be a really good example of that. 00:16:23.572 --> 00:16:29.405 But more broadly, this In Orbit Servicing Manufacturing, sector is, it's just 00:16:29.405 --> 00:16:34.455 hugely exciting, the opportunity to move, engineering, factories, data 00:16:34.455 --> 00:16:40.165 centers, industry from Earth up into space, is becoming a reality thanks 00:16:40.165 --> 00:16:45.185 to advances in, the Starship stuff we talked about, but advances in robotics, 00:16:45.375 --> 00:16:48.155 close proximity operations, AI, etc. 00:16:48.165 --> 00:16:53.472 We can get satellites to go up and refuel, other satellites to work together to 00:16:53.472 --> 00:16:58.782 construct new structures and so on and we at Catapult, we have a fantastic team 00:16:58.832 --> 00:17:02.972 in Westcott and a facility in Westcott, really leading the charge for the UK, 00:17:02.982 --> 00:17:07.968 working with some of our best companies in this sector to help them, test and 00:17:08.348 --> 00:17:12.808 figure out, verify their technology on earth in a facility that we operate and 00:17:12.818 --> 00:17:16.112 before they then start to launch some of these technologies to do do new things. 00:17:16.397 --> 00:17:18.183 Dallas Campbell: Again, it's one of those things that people generally 00:17:18.183 --> 00:17:22.162 don't really think about the fact that we are very limited by what we can 00:17:22.162 --> 00:17:26.892 put up into space by the fairing size of a rocket, you know and I think of 00:17:26.892 --> 00:17:29.738 something like the James Web telescope which is a huge, great thing and they 00:17:29.738 --> 00:17:34.578 had to sort of fold it up, origami style to fit it in, in order to send it out 00:17:34.578 --> 00:17:35.818 and then it sort of unfolded itself. 00:17:35.828 --> 00:17:40.772 But to be able to build huge structures in space, is going to be so revolutionary, 00:17:41.882 --> 00:17:43.122 you know, it will change everything. 00:17:43.122 --> 00:17:45.132 Like you say, giant solar panels. 00:17:45.132 --> 00:17:49.802 I mean, crikey, before we went on air, you know, you and I were talking about AI 00:17:49.932 --> 00:17:56.482 and the amount of energy that AI is going to require will require, I think, you 00:17:56.482 --> 00:18:00.814 know small modular nuclear reactors, but giant Solar farms in space seems to be a 00:18:00.814 --> 00:18:01.484 a pretty idea! 00:18:01.674 --> 00:18:01.734 John Abbott: Yeah. 00:18:01.734 --> 00:18:07.489 I mean, Sam Altman from OpenAI, he's raising a trillion 00:18:07.489 --> 00:18:09.119 dollar fund for data centers. 00:18:09.169 --> 00:18:12.529 So that's a thousand billion anyone who's not come across a trillion before. 00:18:12.574 --> 00:18:15.244 That's a fairly big number and if you were to think about the power cost of 00:18:15.244 --> 00:18:16.654 that's going to be really significant. 00:18:16.744 --> 00:18:21.414 You could perhaps, either draw your power from space or you could, perhaps even 00:18:21.494 --> 00:18:23.324 build some of those data centers in space. 00:18:23.434 --> 00:18:26.284 So yeah, really, really interesting opportunity for us and we've got 00:18:26.284 --> 00:18:27.994 some fantastic companies in the mix. 00:18:28.044 --> 00:18:31.344 and some fantastic facilities and engineering skills in the UK that 00:18:31.414 --> 00:18:33.829 allow us to aspire to capture a large part of that market. 00:18:34.323 --> 00:18:35.984 Dallas Campbell: Do we have a bit of a timeline for this sort of stuff? 00:18:36.034 --> 00:18:39.734 I mean, things like In Orbit Manufacturing and Servicing, you 00:18:39.734 --> 00:18:42.864 know, you mentioned refueling satellites, all that kind of thing. 00:18:42.997 --> 00:18:44.377 When's it going to happen, do you think? 00:18:44.387 --> 00:18:47.664 I mean, are we talking sort of next week or next decade. 00:18:47.929 --> 00:18:51.132 John Abbott: Yeah, so, when we talk about this internally, we sort of varying views. 00:18:51.152 --> 00:18:55.268 So, we're absolutely at the point where folks are beginning 00:18:55.268 --> 00:18:58.328 to test in orbit things like the development of semiconductors, 00:18:58.778 --> 00:19:00.855 the development drugs in space. 00:19:01.045 --> 00:19:03.495 I mean, there's been trials on the ISS for a while, but people 00:19:03.495 --> 00:19:04.815 are starting to do that already. 00:19:05.355 --> 00:19:11.395 Certainly we'll move significantly forward over the next 10 years and you'll start to 00:19:11.405 --> 00:19:16.975 see people doing early prototypes and so on, literally in the next 12 months or so. 00:19:16.975 --> 00:19:20.484 So, company like Spaceforge, they'll be doing some interesting stuff 00:19:20.484 --> 00:19:21.626 over the next 12 months or so. 00:19:22.171 --> 00:19:22.915 Dallas Campbell: Do we need to speed up? 00:19:22.915 --> 00:19:24.898 John Abbott: I think we perhaps need to be more focused. 00:19:24.898 --> 00:19:28.608 So we, again, to the earlier point around, you know, where are we 00:19:28.608 --> 00:19:30.098 as a country placing our bets? 00:19:30.178 --> 00:19:33.228 When we look at something called the Space Industrial Plan to document out 00:19:33.288 --> 00:19:36.707 earlier in the year from government, they're really clear that we're in 00:19:36.707 --> 00:19:39.887 the mix when it comes to In Orbit Servicing, Assembly and Manufacturing. 00:19:39.887 --> 00:19:42.500 So, we need to go as quickly as we possibly can and we need 00:19:42.500 --> 00:19:45.500 everybody kind of lined up behind that, and so that space industrial 00:19:45.500 --> 00:19:48.340 plan points us in that direction, which I think is really helpful. 00:19:48.823 --> 00:19:50.753 Dallas Campbell: I want to talk about collaboration and partnership and 00:19:50.753 --> 00:19:55.523 one of the big mantras that I hear in government space, UK Space Agency and 00:19:55.533 --> 00:20:00.613 government talks is all about this idea of academia, industry and government 00:20:00.613 --> 00:20:04.397 working together and I just want to get your sort of thoughts on how those 00:20:04.407 --> 00:20:07.587 sort of areas can come together from where you're sitting from and how 00:20:07.842 --> 00:20:09.192 John Abbott: Um, Essential. 00:20:09.292 --> 00:20:11.152 The short version is, yeah, it's essential. 00:20:11.632 --> 00:20:14.202 I thought you were going to say space is a team sport, because it absolutely 00:20:14.352 --> 00:20:19.297 is, so for me, so a good example would be some work that we've been doing with 00:20:19.417 --> 00:20:24.667 local government, academia, and the space sector itself in the northeast of England, 00:20:24.667 --> 00:20:29.415 so a de-industrialised area where we've helped create something called Space 00:20:29.415 --> 00:20:33.862 Northeast England, so a cluster in the northeast, Northumbria University have 00:20:33.862 --> 00:20:39.652 A, Faculty in Newcastle and they've been successful in attracting Lockheed Martin 00:20:39.682 --> 00:20:43.782 to the area and Lockheed Martin can put 50 million quid into a new R& D facility. 00:20:44.352 --> 00:20:48.539 So there's a real opportunity to bring together academia, industry like Lockheed 00:20:49.149 --> 00:20:53.269 and government, you know, local government in and around the northeast to start 00:20:53.269 --> 00:20:56.499 to regenerate parts of the country that are sort of de industrialised. 00:20:56.949 --> 00:21:00.879 You'll also find, if you were to hop in the car, drive about half 00:21:00.879 --> 00:21:03.719 an hour down the road, you would find a company called Filtronic. 00:21:03.869 --> 00:21:06.589 Who are, again, one of my, favorite companies. 00:21:06.619 --> 00:21:09.759 I've spent a lot of time going around the country, bumping into and spending 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:10.989 time with folks in the space sector. 00:21:10.989 --> 00:21:15.521 So Filtronica currently supplying components to Starlink, growing really 00:21:15.531 --> 00:21:20.118 significantly as a result and are able to provide really good jobs in an area of the 00:21:20.118 --> 00:21:21.694 country that really needs those good jobs. 00:21:21.704 --> 00:21:29.369 So, there are some real opportunities to create use space, not only to, you 00:21:29.369 --> 00:21:34.243 know, find free power through free solar energy from in orbit or develop 00:21:34.243 --> 00:21:39.303 new drugs and so on, but also on earth to create some really high value jobs 00:21:39.343 --> 00:21:41.023 in and across the whole of the UK. 00:21:41.413 --> 00:21:44.269 So yeah, and we will do that by pulling together academia, 00:21:44.329 --> 00:21:45.806 industry and government. 00:21:46.247 --> 00:21:48.244 Dallas Campbell: How is this sort of catapult fostering that, are you 00:21:48.244 --> 00:21:51.841 kind of involved in, fostering that and trying to make it as nimble as 00:21:52.066 --> 00:21:55.046 John Abbott: Yeah, so with the Space Agency, we help support 00:21:55.046 --> 00:21:58.826 15 space clusters across the UK. 00:21:59.186 --> 00:22:03.339 So literally from Newquay to Inverness, from Belfast to Ipswich, across the whole 00:22:03.339 --> 00:22:08.079 of the UK and in those space clusters are those three groups of folks, so academia, 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:13.590 industry and, local government and those are, the local support groups that help 00:22:13.710 --> 00:22:16.519 the sector grow in that part of the world. 00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:20.872 So each part of the world will have their own specialties or kind of clusters 00:22:20.872 --> 00:22:24.132 of companies that are particularly good at a particular part of space 00:22:24.132 --> 00:22:26.652 and whether that's manufacturing or earth observation or whatever. 00:22:27.202 --> 00:22:31.502 But we as a Catapult have used that core grant I was mentioning earlier on, plus 00:22:31.502 --> 00:22:35.695 some funding from the space agency to help support that network of space clusters 00:22:35.695 --> 00:22:39.005 across the whole of the country, connect them all up, make sure they're all working 00:22:39.005 --> 00:22:42.805 as effectively together and when you go out and meet them, so I've been to all 00:22:42.805 --> 00:22:47.335 15 of them over the last year or so, they are really appreciative of that support, 00:22:47.445 --> 00:22:51.512 but the kind of help that we in the space agency have been able to give, they are 00:22:51.582 --> 00:22:54.664 up and running and standing on their own two feet, but any kind of additional 00:22:54.664 --> 00:22:58.388 help is really, really welcomed and can see the impact that those clusters have 00:22:58.388 --> 00:23:01.426 in examples like the one I was just talking about with Lockheed in northeast. 00:23:01.506 --> 00:23:04.133 Really, really helpful opportunity on earth. 00:23:04.621 --> 00:23:05.461 Dallas Campbell: Yeah, no, definitely. 00:23:05.461 --> 00:23:08.851 I know some of the top Leicester space bods immigrated to the 00:23:08.851 --> 00:23:12.161 University of North Ombre, so um. 00:23:12.437 --> 00:23:15.127 There's some fine folk up here at the moment, I know, doing amazing work. 00:23:15.744 --> 00:23:17.834 I'm interested, let's talk a little bit about the future. 00:23:18.214 --> 00:23:20.897 Let's talk about you particularly, are planning to stay here 00:23:20.897 --> 00:23:22.237 for a while, do you think? 00:23:22.287 --> 00:23:24.590 I suppose I'm interested in your leadership style a little 00:23:24.590 --> 00:23:25.970 bit, about what you can bring. 00:23:26.235 --> 00:23:29.635 And what want to bring to the future of the catapult and what you think you can, 00:23:30.715 --> 00:23:32.475 the sort of directions you can it in. 00:23:32.475 --> 00:23:33.035 John Abbott: Good question. 00:23:33.060 --> 00:23:38.730 So, when I worked at Ordnance Survey, I was there pre and post Google Maps. 00:23:38.989 --> 00:23:44.139 And pre Google Maps, we used to go to geospatial conferences and sort of be a 00:23:44.139 --> 00:23:48.579 little bit frustrated that nobody really got why geospatial data was important. 00:23:48.579 --> 00:23:54.175 It varies similarly to space, yeah, so geospatial data underpins huge parts of 00:23:54.475 --> 00:23:58.868 the economy, not least land registry and it feels like, so I'm guessing that was 00:23:58.868 --> 00:24:04.538 probably around 2005, 2007 ish and the space sector feels like it's there for me. 00:24:04.658 --> 00:24:09.485 So we, we go to lots of space conferences and we hear, folks, with the same slight 00:24:09.485 --> 00:24:11.225 frustration, why does nobody realise that? 00:24:11.285 --> 00:24:15.131 You know, how important we are, how we underpin such a significant part of 00:24:15.131 --> 00:24:19.831 the economy and then Google Maps came along and Google Maps made, geospatial 00:24:19.861 --> 00:24:23.311 data available to everybody on every device everywhere in the world and 00:24:23.321 --> 00:24:27.278 spawned a whole bundle of new products as a result, you know, not least 00:24:27.278 --> 00:24:31.738 Uber or Tinder or whichever one we're talking about and I think the space 00:24:31.748 --> 00:24:33.298 sector has the opportunity to do that. 00:24:33.338 --> 00:24:38.455 So that pattern, that, push towards mainstream adoption of things like 00:24:38.725 --> 00:24:42.638 Earth observation data, um, I think it's a really interesting challenge. 00:24:42.638 --> 00:24:46.245 So for me, as someone who's lived through that in the, you know, sort of 00:24:46.285 --> 00:24:51.625 adjacent sector, it's really interesting to start to think about how we might, 00:24:51.735 --> 00:24:55.015 apply some of the lessons from that geospatial sector to the space sector. 00:24:55.045 --> 00:24:59.611 So terms of me and my leadership style, what I think I bring is this sort of 00:24:59.611 --> 00:25:03.561 fresh pair of eyes, so I haven't been sort of brought up in the space sector. 00:25:03.611 --> 00:25:08.491 So when, when somebody names a project, in a slightly complicated way, I'm 00:25:08.491 --> 00:25:11.581 perhaps the first person to say, why are we naming the project in that way? 00:25:11.981 --> 00:25:14.091 Dallas Campbell: Honestly, that's, that should be everyone's benchmark. 00:25:14.111 --> 00:25:16.491 The problem is if you've been in an industry too long, you start to get 00:25:16.491 --> 00:25:19.661 a bit lazy and you start to think in a particular way and actually 00:25:19.681 --> 00:25:20.551 that's that's not what you want. 00:25:20.601 --> 00:25:23.011 you do want to kind of an outside pair of eyes go hang on, what 00:25:23.061 --> 00:25:24.611 does that Why do we do it? 00:25:24.736 --> 00:25:25.006 John Abbott: find 00:25:25.091 --> 00:25:25.651 Dallas Campbell: do that way? 00:25:25.843 --> 00:25:27.703 John Abbott: Because if we can make it relevant to everybody in the country, 00:25:27.703 --> 00:25:32.143 then there's, no problem in us, making sure, government funding's directed in it. 00:25:32.473 --> 00:25:35.993 No problem in us directing private capital towards the space sector 00:25:36.193 --> 00:25:39.773 because we've made it really clear to people how important the sector is. 00:25:40.586 --> 00:25:41.866 Dallas Campbell: Do we need to to be more radical? 00:25:41.866 --> 00:25:42.966 Do we need to be more... 00:25:43.307 --> 00:25:48.007 John Abbott: I think we can probably be more radical in terms of how a pace of 00:25:48.177 --> 00:25:50.167 delivery and how we think about delivery. 00:25:50.167 --> 00:25:55.417 I think, like I say, at the risk going back to the earlier point, having, real 00:25:55.417 --> 00:26:01.023 focus throughout the sector, aligned perhaps to the Space Industrial Plan, 00:26:01.023 --> 00:26:05.116 that would be our vote, I think, and then really thinking about how can we execute 00:26:05.146 --> 00:26:10.066 at pace on these five priorities, feels like a really sensible thing for us to do. 00:26:10.428 --> 00:26:11.288 Dallas Campbell: Yeah, it does. 00:26:11.355 --> 00:26:15.285 We talk a lot about stuff, we need to kind of actually do stuff and do stuff with 00:26:15.285 --> 00:26:19.155 less fear as well, less kind of worrying about all this, you know, what will people 00:26:19.165 --> 00:26:20.645 think, or this is the way things are done. 00:26:21.005 --> 00:26:22.525 I suppose that's what I mean by radical. 00:26:22.525 --> 00:26:27.095 Do we need to really start, being bolder and being more visionary and 00:26:27.375 --> 00:26:30.145 caring less about, this, that, and the other that all those things that 00:26:30.145 --> 00:26:31.365 we care about too much sometimes. 00:26:31.365 --> 00:26:32.440 John Abbott: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. 00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:36.950 I mean, I saw Peter Kyle, the Secretary of State at DCIT speaking 00:26:37.010 --> 00:26:42.660 and he made a point about talking to officials around innovation and risk 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:47.290 and explaining, look, I'm expecting some failures and that's okay. 00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:49.850 that's on me as the Secretary of State. 00:26:50.390 --> 00:26:53.520 But I don't want you to not take a step forward for fear of failure 00:26:53.550 --> 00:26:57.829 and if that works, you know, kind of in, I've spent time as a civil 00:26:57.829 --> 00:26:58.979 servant, I know what it's like. 00:26:58.989 --> 00:27:03.139 So, you know, if you can get civil servants, being really, really keen to 00:27:03.139 --> 00:27:06.479 innovate, really keen to move quickly, then we can do some great things, 00:27:06.569 --> 00:27:10.965 and the sector I think will rise up behind them and really move at a pace. 00:27:11.285 --> 00:27:15.650 I also think, at the risk of slightly labouring the earlier point, I 00:27:15.650 --> 00:27:19.133 also think we can be radical in how we make space more accessible. 00:27:19.133 --> 00:27:23.208 So how we tell the story of space, how we make the technology of space easier 00:27:23.208 --> 00:27:25.607 to use for people across the country. 00:27:25.997 --> 00:27:29.377 Dallas Campbell: Yeah, we need to get people to buy into the story a bit. 00:27:29.377 --> 00:27:31.947 I mean, things like Apollo going to the moon, that's an 00:27:31.947 --> 00:27:33.577 easy story, everyone gets it. 00:27:33.607 --> 00:27:36.940 We sail across an ocean and we land on an island and stick a flag in it. 00:27:37.280 --> 00:27:39.970 That's kind of an easy thing to understand, that spirit of adventure, 00:27:39.970 --> 00:27:41.090 that spirit of exploration. 00:27:41.849 --> 00:27:43.829 You know, we all get misty eyed about Apollo back. 00:27:43.899 --> 00:27:47.461 But that, how do we get the public to sort of buy into this, which is 00:27:47.511 --> 00:27:51.088 equally as exciting, more exciting really, more impressive in lots of ways. 00:27:51.088 --> 00:27:56.161 I'm not quite sure how, I can get my mum to, appreciate what it is that doing. 00:27:56.161 --> 00:28:00.666 John Abbott: Explaining to your mum, how much of her life is reliant upon space 00:28:00.966 --> 00:28:05.828 and then giving your mum the opportunity to use space more than she does today. 00:28:05.858 --> 00:28:10.384 So for me, one of my, I'd love to do this, being a slight risk of a CEO pet 00:28:10.384 --> 00:28:12.548 project here, but if you remember Mr. 00:28:12.548 --> 00:28:16.638 Spock's tricorder, actually the tricorder could do two things. 00:28:17.328 --> 00:28:21.031 Firstly, Bones would use it to scan somebody and figure out what disease had, 00:28:21.514 --> 00:28:24.904 but also when they landed on a new planet, they would open this tricorder and it 00:28:24.904 --> 00:28:27.084 would tell them everything they needed to know about a planet, whether the air 00:28:27.104 --> 00:28:28.534 was breathable and so on and so forth. 00:28:29.154 --> 00:28:32.284 There is an opportunity for us to build that product, to build 00:28:32.284 --> 00:28:36.384 a product that everyone can use to understand their environment. 00:28:36.854 --> 00:28:40.584 in the set that's as easy to use as ChatGPT is easy to use and I don't 00:28:40.634 --> 00:28:46.231 think we think we don't put ourselves enough in the end users shoes. 00:28:46.321 --> 00:28:49.641 So again, one of the things that we think about as a Catapult is, 00:28:50.281 --> 00:28:53.971 and I find surprising, certainly in comparison with tech sector, is 00:28:54.352 --> 00:28:56.362 often we are quite engineering led. 00:28:56.472 --> 00:29:02.077 So we have engineering led companies, we use engineering language, we will talk 00:29:02.077 --> 00:29:06.744 in terms that perhaps don't make sense to man or woman on the street and there's 00:29:06.744 --> 00:29:12.154 an opportunity for us to take a leaf out of ChatGPT or Google Maps, or Google 00:29:12.154 --> 00:29:17.677 Photos, or pick your favorite technology that's got mainstream adoption, and to 00:29:17.777 --> 00:29:22.417 ourselves in the shoes of the user, understand the pain points, the problems 00:29:22.427 --> 00:29:26.167 that they have and then bring space to them, probably without them really 00:29:26.167 --> 00:29:27.897 realising they're using space, actually. 00:29:28.257 --> 00:29:29.757 Dallas Campbell: I think story is really important as well. 00:29:29.757 --> 00:29:33.387 You mentioned that Apollo is obviously a great story and actually again, without 00:29:33.407 --> 00:29:37.237 having to labour the SpaceX point, but you know, they have a good story. 00:29:37.287 --> 00:29:39.980 You know, Musk sells that innovation by saying, we're going 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.090 to make life multi planetary. 00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:44.810 It's a simple line, but people, you kind of get it. 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.680 John Abbott: When I got the job, I was chatting to my brother, my 00:29:46.700 --> 00:29:51.080 brother's a vascular nurse in King's Hospital, London and he asked, I was 00:29:51.080 --> 00:29:54.300 really surprised, so kind of, I've got a job as a CEO of the Satellite 00:29:54.320 --> 00:29:57.555 Applications Catapult, I thought he said, wow, you know, what an awesome job. 00:29:57.795 --> 00:29:59.885 He said, congratulations, but why do you want to go and do that? 00:29:59.885 --> 00:30:01.155 Why do you want to go and work in the space sector? 00:30:01.175 --> 00:30:06.172 It's sort of Elon Musk and Bezos and, rockets and pollution 00:30:06.172 --> 00:30:06.932 and so on and so forth. 00:30:06.932 --> 00:30:08.422 And I told him about space solar. 00:30:08.532 --> 00:30:11.452 So I said, well, one of the companies that we've spun out is going to build a solar 00:30:11.452 --> 00:30:15.799 power station in space, that's their aim and he said, Oh, I completely understand 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:16.699 why you want to go and work for them. 00:30:17.499 --> 00:30:19.755 So you want to go and work in the space sector because you care about 00:30:19.755 --> 00:30:23.985 climate change, because you can develop new medicines in space, because you 00:30:23.985 --> 00:30:26.005 can move data centers into space. 00:30:26.095 --> 00:30:29.225 Before we'd even mentioned the word astronaut or rocket or telescope, 00:30:29.675 --> 00:30:34.185 there's a whole bundle of problems we can solve only through space and 00:30:34.185 --> 00:30:38.755 that for me is the story we ought to be telling folks, how space can help 00:30:38.845 --> 00:30:40.645 solve some of our biggest challenges on 00:30:41.256 --> 00:30:43.336 Dallas Campbell: that's the thing because you know, people see, they watch the 00:30:43.356 --> 00:30:46.336 news and they'll see Elon Musk who they won't like, or they'll see Jeff Bezos who 00:30:46.336 --> 00:30:50.546 they won't like, and they'll see sort of billionaires mucking about, it just seems 00:30:50.546 --> 00:30:54.983 to be mucking about, or you know, space tourism mucking about, and it's polluting. 00:30:55.573 --> 00:30:59.824 Well, you know, the kinder argument is the only way, the only reason we know about 00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.619 climate change is because we send things up into space that monitors the earth. 00:31:04.089 --> 00:31:07.979 You know, know, that's the thing that kind of very often doesn't seem to get through. 00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:09.429 So better story. 00:31:09.449 --> 00:31:10.299 John Abbott: Better story. 00:31:10.819 --> 00:31:16.879 Products that genuinely solve a problem for a customer and really 00:31:16.899 --> 00:31:20.756 thinking about, the engineering is super important, but you hide it in 00:31:20.756 --> 00:31:23.820 the back, don't you really a little bit and we probably lead with engineering 00:31:23.820 --> 00:31:25.650 when we ought to lead with marketing. 00:31:26.246 --> 00:31:26.646 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:31:27.026 --> 00:31:30.686 I just want to just finally sort of end with, okay, Usborne 00:31:30.706 --> 00:31:32.586 Book of the Future, 1979. 00:31:32.966 --> 00:31:37.580 Let's imagine the Usborne Book of the Future, let's go 2050, shall What's 00:31:37.580 --> 00:31:39.340 the world going to look like then? 00:31:39.666 --> 00:31:41.566 and how will the catapult help us get there? 00:31:41.836 --> 00:31:43.066 That's a bit of a big question, isn't it? 00:31:43.606 --> 00:31:46.973 Well, imagine you're doing the, will we have space panels by then? 00:31:46.973 --> 00:31:47.523 Space solar farms. 00:31:47.543 --> 00:31:52.893 John Abbott: Space solar farms on Mars, mining astronauts, developing medicines, 00:31:52.893 --> 00:31:56.233 et cetera, et cetera, moving heavy industry off earth so on, yeah, the 00:31:56.233 --> 00:31:58.842 UK playing a leading role in that. 00:31:58.862 --> 00:32:02.095 Bundled jobs in the UK, good jobs in the UK, across the whole of 00:32:02.095 --> 00:32:06.095 the UK with folks kind of working for and in that, space sector. 00:32:06.485 --> 00:32:07.515 How will we do that? 00:32:07.820 --> 00:32:12.897 We'll do that by being a supporter of the sector, a connector. 00:32:13.467 --> 00:32:16.924 So connecting up academia, governments, this industry, like we were talking 00:32:16.924 --> 00:32:20.914 about earlier on, an influencer, so influence government around that, 00:32:21.074 --> 00:32:22.604 around kind of priorities and so on. 00:32:23.374 --> 00:32:26.894 We as an organisation will only be able to do that if we're credible. 00:32:27.194 --> 00:32:30.854 So being credible is about continuing to invest in our engineering talent, 00:32:31.209 --> 00:32:35.039 bringing people on board to help us really grow those high potential 00:32:35.049 --> 00:32:39.269 businesses, forming the right sorts of alliances and partnerships, and then 00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:41.309 having a really transparent approach. 00:32:41.309 --> 00:32:43.239 So being really clear on what we're here to do. 00:32:43.269 --> 00:32:47.422 We're here to serve the sector, not to grow ourselves or not to kind of, grow 00:32:47.422 --> 00:32:51.062 our market share or provide dividends to shareholders, et cetera, et cetera 00:32:51.572 --> 00:32:54.752 and it's fair to say at the moment, not everyone's a fan of the Catapult. 00:32:54.879 --> 00:32:59.349 I think sometimes because they feel that when we go out and win a piece of work, 00:32:59.669 --> 00:33:03.491 albeit with a consortium, that's work that they would prefer to win or that's 00:33:04.171 --> 00:33:08.036 would be better directed in another area and I think our answer to that is, number 00:33:08.036 --> 00:33:11.486 one, I think we get it right more than we get it wrong, and that when we're winning 00:33:11.486 --> 00:33:14.896 some of those grants, we're doing it as part of a team, so that an awful lot of 00:33:14.896 --> 00:33:17.046 that money is flowing in the direction of the sector we're here to serve. 00:33:17.906 --> 00:33:20.320 But I think we can probably do a better job and we are planning on 00:33:20.320 --> 00:33:24.145 doing a better job in terms of how we form those consortiums, being really 00:33:24.145 --> 00:33:26.878 clear with the sector around where we want to help, making sure that the 00:33:26.878 --> 00:33:28.778 sector values are helping those areas. 00:33:29.138 --> 00:33:31.448 So yeah, it goes back to what's our core purpose. 00:33:31.448 --> 00:33:36.325 Our core purpose is to support the sector to grow, being clear on how we're going 00:33:36.325 --> 00:33:39.235 to do that, being transparent about who we're working with and how we're 00:33:39.395 --> 00:33:40.525 pulling those consortiums together. 00:33:40.525 --> 00:33:44.593 I think hopefully we'll start to bring those, those folks that perhaps 00:33:44.593 --> 00:33:46.053 are not our biggest fans on board. 00:33:46.654 --> 00:33:47.834 Dallas Campbell: And bold and... 00:33:48.134 --> 00:33:51.024 John Abbott: bold and charismatic leadership, lots of cake, a 00:33:51.064 --> 00:33:54.284 lot of tea, a lot of stuff gets done with cake and tea, I think. 00:33:54.774 --> 00:33:57.361 Dallas Campbell: These are all topics that we're going to 00:33:57.371 --> 00:33:59.121 be doing in our next series. 00:33:59.691 --> 00:34:02.421 I've said that now we can't not have a series now I've said that. 00:34:02.461 --> 00:34:03.041 So John, 00:34:04.951 --> 00:34:09.361 Thank you very much for coming on and talking to us about your role as the CEO 00:34:09.361 --> 00:34:13.091 of the Satellite Applications Catapult and teeing our next so beautifully! 00:34:13.291 --> 00:34:14.841 John Abbott: nice to meet you and thanks for having me. 00:34:15.158 --> 00:34:15.478 Dallas Campbell: Pleasure. 00:34:16.025 --> 00:34:18.475 Thank you very much for joining us for this series of In-Orbit. 00:34:18.495 --> 00:34:22.615 We've had some really fantastic guests share their expertise and insights with 00:34:22.615 --> 00:34:26.922 us on everything from greenhouse gases and space debris to robotics and the 00:34:26.932 --> 00:34:31.061 laws of outer space, exploring every facet of the projects, the innovations 00:34:31.061 --> 00:34:33.091 that propel our industry forward. 00:34:33.345 --> 00:34:37.255 We're going to be taking a short break, but to hear future episodes of 00:34:37.255 --> 00:34:42.255 In-Orbit, don't forget to subscribe on your favourite podcast app, and 00:34:42.255 --> 00:34:46.195 for deeper insights, latest news and more real world space applications, 00:34:46.195 --> 00:34:50.383 you can visit the Catapult website or join them as ever on social media.