WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.240 --> 00:00:03.920 Mike Bifulco: Hello and welcome back to APIs you won't hate. 00:00:03.920 --> 00:00:05.280 My name is Mike Bi Folco. 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.840 Your APIs you won't hate co-hosts talking about APIs you won't hate with some of 00:00:09.840 --> 00:00:12.900 our friends from around the world who are building great APIs and tools for it. 00:00:12.931 --> 00:00:16.701 I'm joined today by my new friend Anton from Stig Anton, how are you this morning? 00:00:17.621 --> 00:00:18.611 Anton: I'm great, Mike. 00:00:18.611 --> 00:00:19.181 How are you? 00:00:19.531 --> 00:00:20.471 mike_bifulco: I'm doing really well. 00:00:20.471 --> 00:00:20.751 Thanks. 00:00:20.751 --> 00:00:22.650 It's super nice to get a chance to talk to you. 00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:25.841 I definitely want to dig into kind of what you're working on at Stig . First 00:00:25.841 --> 00:00:27.121 I'd like to know a little bit about you. 00:00:27.121 --> 00:00:27.361 Okay. 00:00:27.361 --> 00:00:30.401 So can you tell me a bit about yourself, maybe some of your background and the 00:00:30.401 --> 00:00:31.801 things you did before coming to Stig? 00:00:32.436 --> 00:00:33.696 Anton: Yeah, sure, of course. 00:00:33.756 --> 00:00:36.126 I'm Anton cio, co-founder of Stig. 00:00:36.846 --> 00:00:40.577 A little bit of background on from my end is that I'm in software engineering for. 00:00:40.647 --> 00:00:41.947 I think more than a decade now. 00:00:42.017 --> 00:00:45.317 Actually, like that's, that's the official number, but I think I started 00:00:45.317 --> 00:00:47.117 programming like from a younger age. 00:00:47.417 --> 00:00:50.306 I think my first programming book was visual Basic. 00:00:50.336 --> 00:00:51.906 I think I got it in the fourth grade. 00:00:51.976 --> 00:00:53.256 Mike Bifulco: That's, that's how I started too. 00:00:53.921 --> 00:00:54.011 Anton: Yeah. 00:00:54.521 --> 00:00:55.061 Good times. 00:00:55.211 --> 00:00:55.851 Good times. 00:00:55.921 --> 00:01:00.181 So since then I was hooked and I, you know, really enjoyed programming 00:01:00.181 --> 00:01:01.301 and spending a lot of time on. 00:01:01.330 --> 00:01:05.570 . Yeah, so I've been serving also in the idf, being in tele processing corpse. 00:01:05.600 --> 00:01:09.900 So that's how like my official career started, I think you can say that. 00:01:09.929 --> 00:01:13.469 And since then I've been rolling into a few FinTech companies, 00:01:13.499 --> 00:01:16.897 local companies here in Israel as a software engineer for a few years. 00:01:16.897 --> 00:01:21.967 I even thought, Like my specific domain expertise was work building trading 00:01:22.417 --> 00:01:26.506 platforms, like for stock brokers and, and everything around, you know, the 00:01:26.506 --> 00:01:32.265 tooling that requires to manage do trading platforms for also institutional investors 00:01:32.265 --> 00:01:34.095 and also for retail, retail investors. 00:01:34.455 --> 00:01:38.775 So I kinda categorize myself as an expert in trading platforms. 00:01:38.835 --> 00:01:41.665 And then like, there's was a. 00:01:42.255 --> 00:01:46.005 Change like from my end when I decided I wanna start having 00:01:46.335 --> 00:01:48.065 like being my own my own boss. 00:01:48.065 --> 00:01:51.424 And then I started open the software company and then hired a bunch of 00:01:51.424 --> 00:01:56.764 people and we made like kind of a lot of different projects and product, 00:01:56.769 --> 00:02:02.094 built a lot of products for like a variety of customers with was small 00:02:02.094 --> 00:02:04.134 startups, both big enterprises. 00:02:04.434 --> 00:02:08.074 And then I was like exposed to many different industries and. 00:02:08.143 --> 00:02:10.433 You know, many different kind of type of products. 00:02:10.503 --> 00:02:13.263 And afterwards I had the opportunity to join New Relic 00:02:13.292 --> 00:02:14.562 as a senior software engineer. 00:02:14.592 --> 00:02:17.533 And this is actually where I met my co-founder do and 00:02:17.538 --> 00:02:18.883 together we co-founded Stig. 00:02:18.883 --> 00:02:22.492 So, yeah, it was a a very interesting experience for me also 00:02:22.492 --> 00:02:24.092 working at like a big enterprise. 00:02:24.121 --> 00:02:27.431 Working on a new product that new Relic has acquired a 00:02:27.431 --> 00:02:29.261 startup company here in Israel. 00:02:29.351 --> 00:02:34.601 And then we help them together to build this new type of 00:02:34.606 --> 00:02:36.371 product, which called Lops. 00:02:36.431 --> 00:02:40.861 This is like a product line that involves everything that is related 00:02:40.861 --> 00:02:44.771 to machine learning, monitoring and observability around these areas. 00:02:44.802 --> 00:02:45.922 So it was very interesting to. 00:02:45.973 --> 00:02:49.283 . Yeah, so that's, that's, that's a brief history. 00:02:50.013 --> 00:02:50.903 Mike Bifulco: Yeah, sure. 00:02:50.903 --> 00:02:51.983 Really, really fascinating. 00:02:51.983 --> 00:02:55.002 So cool to hear that this isn't necessarily the first company you've 00:02:55.002 --> 00:02:57.102 started, although maybe the first product company you're building. 00:02:57.173 --> 00:03:01.336 And I, I guess all of that history of, of you know, working with startups and doing 00:03:01.336 --> 00:03:04.016 consulting and then working at New Relic kind of brings you to where you are today. 00:03:04.066 --> 00:03:05.996 So obviously that's building tig. 00:03:06.027 --> 00:03:07.787 Can you tell us a little bit about Stig? 00:03:07.787 --> 00:03:08.477 What's the audience? 00:03:08.477 --> 00:03:09.717 What's your value proposition? 00:03:09.717 --> 00:03:10.757 Who's, who's your user? 00:03:10.757 --> 00:03:11.537 What does that look like? 00:03:11.606 --> 00:03:12.086 Anton: Yeah, sure. 00:03:12.086 --> 00:03:17.936 So basically, I'm just gonna start with what Stig is and how we see 00:03:17.936 --> 00:03:19.265 it and what you're trying to do. 00:03:19.265 --> 00:03:22.813 So STIG is basically an, an infrastructure product. 00:03:23.173 --> 00:03:23.533 Okay. 00:03:23.533 --> 00:03:27.985 That's, that means that we developing APIs and tools that allow develop. 00:03:28.054 --> 00:03:32.834 To manage their and rollout new pricing packaging let's call constructions. 00:03:32.904 --> 00:03:36.204 So basically what we do is we sit as a product. 00:03:36.209 --> 00:03:39.714 We sit somewhere in the middle between like bunch of different areas. 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:44.154 It includes also the product itself, also different types of billing systems, 00:03:44.364 --> 00:03:48.414 also different types of CRMs, and we like basically tie all those together. 00:03:48.774 --> 00:03:53.379 But if I need to say like, You know, what, what do you do, do best? 00:03:53.379 --> 00:03:55.749 Because that sounds like a little bit of vague. 00:03:56.079 --> 00:04:01.539 So basically, STIG is a, at it core, at at its core is an entitlement 00:04:01.544 --> 00:04:06.287 management system, which I think this is the foundation for any 00:04:06.757 --> 00:04:09.848 flexible or agile pricing, packaging tooling or . And to bring our 00:04:09.853 --> 00:04:11.647 software this is our centerpiece. 00:04:11.647 --> 00:04:12.977 And from there we evolved. 00:04:13.028 --> 00:04:16.708 Different areas such as usage based pricing and pricing, 00:04:16.708 --> 00:04:18.838 experimentation, and a testing. 00:04:19.108 --> 00:04:22.198 And on top of that is basically what allows us to do that is 00:04:22.203 --> 00:04:23.678 basically this entitlement piece. 00:04:23.747 --> 00:04:28.056 For, let's say from the the companies that we work with are basically the ones. 00:04:28.701 --> 00:04:31.581 or they want to try like the small segments, or they 00:04:31.581 --> 00:04:32.961 want to try out new price. 00:04:32.961 --> 00:04:35.511 Like they wanna roll the first pricing okay. 00:04:35.511 --> 00:04:36.501 For a software product. 00:04:36.891 --> 00:04:38.901 So they, they don't know where to start. 00:04:38.906 --> 00:04:42.081 So they usually reach out to us and try to figure out like what's 00:04:42.081 --> 00:04:43.881 the base based way to do that? 00:04:43.881 --> 00:04:47.751 What, what's the best pricing strategy for their specific product or industry. 00:04:47.871 --> 00:04:51.791 Then we try to help out give them some little advice or connect 00:04:51.791 --> 00:04:54.261 them to other pricing experts that might help a little bit. 00:04:54.291 --> 00:04:58.662 Information can help them do something more intelligent rather than try to guess 00:04:58.662 --> 00:05:00.581 that what's the best pricing for them. 00:05:01.001 --> 00:05:05.761 And the second, second type I think of of customers that work with us are 00:05:05.761 --> 00:05:11.082 the ones who already has some, like a, already has some pricing strategy in 00:05:11.087 --> 00:05:16.801 place, and then after like few years of running with that, they figure out 00:05:16.801 --> 00:05:19.051 that they wanna change that because. 00:05:19.501 --> 00:05:22.944 You know there's usually, there's a saying that if you don't iterate or 00:05:22.949 --> 00:05:27.033 change your pricing strategy over time, you basically living money on the floor. 00:05:27.101 --> 00:05:30.731 That's, and that's natural because usually the companies when they 00:05:30.731 --> 00:05:34.181 start, you know, where their initial pricing is, something that they 00:05:34.331 --> 00:05:36.701 decide on very on, very early on. 00:05:36.701 --> 00:05:39.881 And then, And they just wanna build a user base. 00:05:39.881 --> 00:05:41.171 They just wanna get traction. 00:05:41.231 --> 00:05:44.861 But after a year or two and they start to evolve and they start to grow 00:05:44.861 --> 00:05:48.371 and they want to increase revenue, I think the first thing they thinking 00:05:48.371 --> 00:05:49.931 of, okay, let's change our pricing. 00:05:49.961 --> 00:05:52.211 Cause that pricing is obsolete, it's legacy. 00:05:52.216 --> 00:05:54.281 We need to update it accordingly. 00:05:54.286 --> 00:06:00.521 We build so much for those two or three, four years and it's, it's insane if we 00:06:00.851 --> 00:06:05.001 price it the same, you know, the same in the same way we did when we just started. 00:06:05.032 --> 00:06:08.301 . So this is, I think that's that's the tipping point where they start looking 00:06:08.301 --> 00:06:13.071 for like, how we do that, how we plan that, how, which tools are out there that 00:06:13.071 --> 00:06:15.331 can help us to do this type of change. 00:06:15.400 --> 00:06:19.290 So I guess that's, that's also the point where we where we can help them 00:06:19.350 --> 00:06:23.841 and enable enable them to do these changes without, you know, rebuilding 00:06:23.846 --> 00:06:25.411 their own infrastructure all over. 00:06:25.479 --> 00:06:28.329 And also prevent them from doing that again in the future. 00:06:28.823 --> 00:06:29.313 Mike Bifulco: Sure. 00:06:29.313 --> 00:06:29.593 Yeah. 00:06:29.593 --> 00:06:32.713 It feels like there's a whole lot that goes into even just the, the couple 00:06:32.713 --> 00:06:34.054 of customer types you've described. 00:06:34.124 --> 00:06:37.454 I should definitely preface this entire discussion by giving the caveat 00:06:37.554 --> 00:06:40.814 and the I don't know, asterisk that in a past life I worked for Stripe. 00:06:40.882 --> 00:06:41.882 I no longer work for Stripe. 00:06:41.882 --> 00:06:43.062 I don't have ties to Stripe anymore. 00:06:43.094 --> 00:06:46.585 But probably worth saying, just for the sake of of clarity here I've spent a 00:06:46.585 --> 00:06:49.945 lot of my time working with and thinking about companies and, and customers and. 00:06:50.140 --> 00:06:51.740 And how pricing strategies work. 00:06:51.740 --> 00:06:53.960 So this is something that's definitely very interesting to me. 00:06:54.030 --> 00:06:55.490 Man, I have a lot of questions from here. 00:06:55.490 --> 00:06:55.810 So, 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:57.010 l 00:06:57.010 --> 00:06:59.290 let's talk a little bit about companies trying to figure out 00:06:59.290 --> 00:07:00.610 their initial pricing strategy. 00:07:01.490 --> 00:07:05.062 I, I feel like, and a part of that is just for many companies who 00:07:05.062 --> 00:07:07.582 I'd imagined, well actually let's even start a step further back. 00:07:07.582 --> 00:07:10.782 So does Stig primarily work with subscription-based pricing, or 00:07:10.782 --> 00:07:13.453 do you do like one-off purchases and things like that as well? 00:07:13.483 --> 00:07:18.433 Anton: So I think that like at stake, because we are, we are the source of truth 00:07:18.643 --> 00:07:22.823 of how your pricing packaging looks like, like this is where we position ourself. 00:07:22.893 --> 00:07:27.594 We basically support mo different types of pricing strategies, 00:07:27.594 --> 00:07:28.914 like subscription is one of them. 00:07:28.914 --> 00:07:33.525 We also support usage based pricing, and we also have this concept of you 00:07:33.525 --> 00:07:35.325 know, enterprise pricing, which just. 00:07:36.075 --> 00:07:39.775 There are some enterprise customers that have some custom 00:07:39.845 --> 00:07:41.675 pricing tailored for them. 00:07:41.675 --> 00:07:45.045 And we also, some, this is also something that we support. 00:07:45.115 --> 00:07:49.796 But we, like from technical standpoint we don't see ourself as a billing system. 00:07:49.801 --> 00:07:54.506 Basically, we sit like between your product and the billing system. 00:07:54.506 --> 00:07:56.096 It means that the configuration. 00:07:57.116 --> 00:08:01.316 Of how your pricing should look like and how you wanna, how you wanna like 00:08:01.556 --> 00:08:07.256 charge your customers something that you define and stick, but the actual, the 00:08:07.256 --> 00:08:11.276 actual billing, like the actual invoicing is happens in the bearing system. 00:08:13.251 --> 00:08:13.741 Mike Bifulco: sure 00:08:14.636 --> 00:08:19.436 Anton: so we, we kind of, we, we are a little bit limited to what 00:08:19.436 --> 00:08:21.206 your billing system support, but. 00:08:22.646 --> 00:08:27.086 Our vision is to support and multiple different billing systems. 00:08:27.086 --> 00:08:30.386 So basically, once you use Stick, you're no longer vendor locked 00:08:30.686 --> 00:08:32.156 into a single billing system. 00:08:32.156 --> 00:08:37.646 Like if you use Stripe and you decided to switch over to God knows what, and 00:08:37.646 --> 00:08:43.496 we support this kind of integration, you can do that by having, by, by doing a, a 00:08:43.496 --> 00:08:49.346 few clicks, like in our, in our No Code user interface, and then you migrate all 00:08:49.346 --> 00:08:50.636 your customers to a different billing. 00:08:51.846 --> 00:08:52.406 Mike Bifulco: Right. 00:08:52.436 --> 00:08:52.926 Okay. 00:08:52.926 --> 00:08:56.886 Yeah, so I, I guess for further clarification, more of the distinction 00:08:56.886 --> 00:08:59.817 I'm, I'm looking for is you're, you're generally working with SaaS companies 00:08:59.817 --> 00:09:04.177 and enterprise flavored companies, and not so much like e-commerce stores 00:09:04.177 --> 00:09:06.697 that sell, I don't know, mechanical keyboards and things like that. 00:09:06.697 --> 00:09:06.977 Right? 00:09:08.892 --> 00:09:10.992 Anton: So basically our focus is on SaaS companies. 00:09:11.087 --> 00:09:11.577 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:09:11.887 --> 00:09:12.357 Okay 00:09:12.383 --> 00:09:15.988 Anton: Like the, the pain that we felt is that SaaS companies 00:09:16.057 --> 00:09:19.537 like the existing tools are not sufficient enough for SaaS companies. 00:09:19.537 --> 00:09:24.307 I think that because every SaaS company is considered itself as a snowflake usually, 00:09:24.367 --> 00:09:29.167 and they have, like, I have my own vision of how I want to price my product, but 00:09:29.167 --> 00:09:32.767 still I want to check out the competitors do that and then align to that. 00:09:32.767 --> 00:09:36.738 But, you know, they always want to like invent something special of their own. 00:09:36.807 --> 00:09:40.907 . So basically I think that's because our focus is on the SaaS companies, we try, 00:09:41.417 --> 00:09:46.568 we try to bring the best like the best capabilities that suits their needs. 00:09:46.658 --> 00:09:50.438 I think we go like for the best practices that are in the SaaS industry 00:09:50.768 --> 00:09:55.618 and trying to like, consolidate all those different types of, of, you know, 00:09:55.623 --> 00:09:59.078 companies are trying to figure out what they need to do into like what are 00:09:59.078 --> 00:10:02.588 the best practices and how you should price your product based on certain. 00:10:03.683 --> 00:10:09.533 And factors, so, so we like our pure focus is basically on 00:10:09.533 --> 00:10:10.613 SaaS companies in that area. 00:10:11.188 --> 00:10:11.678 Mike Bifulco: Sure. 00:10:11.678 --> 00:10:12.118 Okay. 00:10:12.118 --> 00:10:16.820 Yeah, I think if you haven't built a, if you haven't plugged payments, 00:10:16.820 --> 00:10:20.540 pricing, subscriptions into a product before, I think it can be easy to think 00:10:20.540 --> 00:10:24.900 that, like it's simple, oh, you, you just charge $39 a month or whatever, a 00:10:24.900 --> 00:10:27.272 static price per month, and you know, that's how you work with your users. 00:10:27.452 --> 00:10:29.912 But then if you think about it a little longer, I think probably 00:10:30.192 --> 00:10:34.712 everyone has seen some pricing page on the internet that has a three, you 00:10:34.712 --> 00:10:37.411 know, a table with three prices on it, with a list of features below it. 00:10:37.443 --> 00:10:37.843 And even. 00:10:38.003 --> 00:10:41.083 Seems simple at first blush, but the process of building that out 00:10:41.083 --> 00:10:44.214 and even designing that interface in a way that people understand 00:10:44.214 --> 00:10:46.974 what's there and that it's clear and that you set up pricing correctly, 00:10:46.974 --> 00:10:48.074 there's a lot that goes into that. 00:10:48.105 --> 00:10:51.065 And then it gets even like more wildly complex when you talk about things where 00:10:51.065 --> 00:10:55.025 enterprises might have a graduated pricing that gets cheaper per seat after certain 00:10:55.025 --> 00:10:56.705 tiers, or they might have usage based. 00:10:56.865 --> 00:11:00.145 That's like for all of these AI products where you're charging per 00:11:00.405 --> 00:11:02.477 API call based on tokens, right? 00:11:02.477 --> 00:11:05.717 Like the, the can be more expensive and things like that. 00:11:05.717 --> 00:11:07.848 And it gets wildly complicated from there. 00:11:07.848 --> 00:11:10.819 And I think a lot of people don't realize that that is such an intense problem 00:11:10.819 --> 00:11:14.179 space and that, like you said, all of these companies are in their own way. 00:11:14.179 --> 00:11:17.259 You know, they consider themselves unicorns because they're trying 00:11:17.259 --> 00:11:19.951 to figure out the best way to, to provide value to people to make money. 00:11:21.516 --> 00:11:25.716 it strikes me that there's a lot to explain there from a, hey, like, STIG 00:11:25.716 --> 00:11:27.576 can help you do this perspective. 00:11:27.607 --> 00:11:29.967 And then there's sort of the implementation step of, it sounds 00:11:29.967 --> 00:11:32.747 like you plug into lots of payment services, so maybe something like 00:11:32.817 --> 00:11:36.207 Stripe and Adian and PayPal and all these places that can take payments. 00:11:36.238 --> 00:11:40.089 And from, from jumping into your webpage and looking at you know, STIGs homepage, 00:11:40.089 --> 00:11:43.729 there's some pretty intense diagrams of plugging in and out to SDKs and 00:11:43.729 --> 00:11:45.289 widgets and all kinds of things there. 00:11:45.629 --> 00:11:51.746 How, how do you explain, The placement of STIGs sort of integration service 00:11:51.876 --> 00:11:54.786 to, to companies looking to build, like where, what do you start with? 00:11:54.786 --> 00:11:57.546 How do you say, you know, what's your hello world for Stig look like? 00:11:58.716 --> 00:11:58.926 Anton: Cool. 00:11:59.076 --> 00:12:01.686 That's a, that's a great question, Mike. 00:12:01.691 --> 00:12:04.625 I think like the first thing that I just wanna address the the thing that 00:12:04.625 --> 00:12:08.765 you started with is like, there are a lot of variety of, you know, different. 00:12:09.170 --> 00:12:13.031 pricing strategies and you need to figure out how you build an, like a platform to 00:12:13.036 --> 00:12:14.750 support all those different use cases. 00:12:14.750 --> 00:12:19.640 But if you try to break it down like into what are the building blocks and that 00:12:19.730 --> 00:12:23.210 that you, that a com, a software company can use in order to build their pricing. 00:12:23.390 --> 00:12:25.940 All those types of different pricing model, pricing models. 00:12:26.300 --> 00:12:30.050 I think that the building blocks are quite the same, like across all those companies. 00:12:30.050 --> 00:12:32.570 As you said, there's like this token based pricing. 00:12:32.570 --> 00:12:36.000 There is this subscription based with a flat fee and there's this. 00:12:36.051 --> 00:12:40.551 Types of plans with different limits maybe, or there's a, like a one, one 00:12:40.556 --> 00:12:42.651 value metric or two value metrics. 00:12:43.161 --> 00:12:46.371 But at the baseline, if you take all that and try to find a common 00:12:46.371 --> 00:12:50.271 denominator between those two, you can actually build some, like an intelligent 00:12:50.271 --> 00:12:54.860 pro platform that is still flexible enough and build using those building 00:12:55.010 --> 00:12:56.510 and using those building blocks. 00:12:56.510 --> 00:12:57.630 You can model all those. 00:12:58.160 --> 00:13:00.411 Pricing models and supported end to end. 00:13:00.481 --> 00:13:04.291 So regarding your question of like how this Hello World application looks like. 00:13:04.291 --> 00:13:10.441 So basically Stig is, as I said before, is, is basically allows you to, you 00:13:10.441 --> 00:13:14.690 know roll out pricing changes faster if, if it was a very complex and. 00:13:15.830 --> 00:13:21.050 Complicated product with many integration points and, and you have to invest a lot 00:13:21.050 --> 00:13:23.000 of time in order to get value at stake. 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:26.090 Wouldn't work, that wouldn't like be our core value that 00:13:26.095 --> 00:13:27.140 we provide to our customers. 00:13:27.140 --> 00:13:32.420 So basically from day zero focus was how you reduce the integration time, 00:13:32.425 --> 00:13:34.250 how you make things more simple. 00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:37.520 What, what is the immediate value that you can get the 00:13:37.520 --> 00:13:39.170 developer can get by using Stick. 00:13:39.170 --> 00:13:43.019 Like what we, what we're trying to, what pain do we, you know we sooth. 00:13:43.259 --> 00:13:47.474 So basically, I think that the whole low world example would be like the first 00:13:47.474 --> 00:13:51.862 thing that a developer usually starts work on when he gets this pricing test. 00:13:51.862 --> 00:13:55.222 Like usually there's a ticket in your trailer or Jira. 00:13:55.227 --> 00:13:57.622 That's, we need to roll out our pricing. 00:13:57.622 --> 00:14:00.052 Let's start with the pricing page. 00:14:00.487 --> 00:14:04.027 So basically , you know, let's not wire they that behind the scenes. 00:14:04.057 --> 00:14:07.057 Let's just put our pricing out there and see how the, how our 00:14:07.447 --> 00:14:08.777 customers will react to that. 00:14:09.107 --> 00:14:13.686 And, and this is basically what our like things that we gave give out out 00:14:13.686 --> 00:14:18.936 of the box are there's pricing plan widgets that you can an embedable widgets 00:14:18.936 --> 00:14:23.046 that can just simply drag and drop into your website, into your applic. 00:14:24.141 --> 00:14:29.541 and based on the pricing configuration and Stig, you get this magically pricing 00:14:29.541 --> 00:14:33.061 plans, everything dynamic according to your to the configuration that you set 00:14:33.066 --> 00:14:35.011 according to pricing strategy and Stig. 00:14:35.401 --> 00:14:36.631 And it's already functional. 00:14:36.636 --> 00:14:37.561 You already got the value. 00:14:37.591 --> 00:14:39.781 You didn't have to build it, you didn't have to break your head. 00:14:39.781 --> 00:14:43.291 How I model this, you know, different plans, how I style 00:14:43.291 --> 00:14:44.851 them, configure them, everything. 00:14:44.851 --> 00:14:47.470 There's no code solution in stick that allows you even to 00:14:47.470 --> 00:14:49.100 style and theme this type of. 00:14:49.660 --> 00:14:53.489 So that's the, the hello world that that I think that's the, that's the 00:14:53.489 --> 00:14:57.029 most simple thing that can get from stag, like the most straightforward one. 00:14:57.479 --> 00:15:01.779 And once you are ready and you wanna, you know, switch gears, then 00:15:01.805 --> 00:15:03.010 get, take it to the next level. 00:15:03.015 --> 00:15:05.710 And you wanna have pays inside your application. 00:15:05.710 --> 00:15:09.730 You wanna have a customer portal in the new application so customers can upgrade 00:15:09.730 --> 00:15:11.320 and downgrade their plans in self. 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.200 So, This is where it gets interesting. 00:15:14.200 --> 00:15:18.270 We have widgets also for those pieces, but we also need to make it effective, we need 00:15:18.270 --> 00:15:22.170 to do this kind of backend integration with Stig, where you need to, first 00:15:22.170 --> 00:15:24.540 of all start reporting usage to Stig. 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:26.940 Whenever a customer adds a seeds, remove the seed. 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.550 If you want to have that enforced by Stig, that is something 00:15:29.550 --> 00:15:30.720 that is also required to do. 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:31.950 And then later on you can. 00:15:32.865 --> 00:15:36.215 You know, start feature gating, start limiting those based on 00:15:36.215 --> 00:15:40.365 the usage and start billing on certain metrics if you choose to. 00:15:40.393 --> 00:15:42.883 And everything will be no code since that point. 00:15:42.943 --> 00:15:46.333 So basically, once you integrate the stick one, you won't 00:15:46.333 --> 00:15:47.953 have to do this integrations. 00:15:47.953 --> 00:15:51.883 So over again, whenever you choose to or decide to change your pricing model. 00:15:52.433 --> 00:15:52.923 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:15:52.983 --> 00:15:53.403 Wow. 00:15:53.833 --> 00:15:56.643 Yeah, again, I feel like that's one of those things that sounds like 00:15:56.643 --> 00:15:58.503 you saying it sounds very simple. 00:15:58.535 --> 00:16:01.455 Having lived through building a few different pricing strategies 00:16:01.455 --> 00:16:03.506 for a few different products it can take quite a bit of work. 00:16:03.506 --> 00:16:05.666 And a, a good concrete example of that for. 00:16:05.756 --> 00:16:06.816 For APIs you won't hate. 00:16:06.847 --> 00:16:10.327 Phil, my, my co-host and co-founder here has authored a few books that we sell 00:16:10.327 --> 00:16:13.419 on the site and right now, if you went to buy books on the site, we sell them 00:16:13.419 --> 00:16:16.379 through Amazon and through Lean Pub and through a couple of different places. 00:16:16.509 --> 00:16:20.578 Shopify is, is one of our providers and we have few times thought about 00:16:20.578 --> 00:16:23.710 trying to make it so that it's easier for us to manage all of those 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:25.630 things centrally and playing around. 00:16:26.580 --> 00:16:29.940 selling digital products for a set price or doing something like our 00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:32.620 own Patreon ish thing for won't hate. 00:16:32.620 --> 00:16:35.780 And the thought of trying that out and having it not work and having to rip it 00:16:35.780 --> 00:16:39.460 out or having to change it or something like that, is essentially as the, the, you 00:16:39.460 --> 00:16:43.475 know, Two to three person, developer team for the site is an intense amount of work. 00:16:43.475 --> 00:16:45.675 And essentially one of those things that just becomes a 00:16:45.675 --> 00:16:46.815 non-starter from the beginning. 00:16:46.826 --> 00:16:50.217 And if you think about, you know, maybe, I don't know let's say Anton, you and 00:16:50.217 --> 00:16:51.817 I were building a dating app, right? 00:16:51.817 --> 00:16:52.537 And we wanted 00:16:52.537 --> 00:16:53.137 to charge 10 00:16:53.137 --> 00:16:55.328 bucks a month and we decided next month that we needed to 00:16:55.328 --> 00:16:56.408 split it out to three plans. 00:16:56.408 --> 00:16:59.248 That's 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, and 50 bucks a month. 00:16:59.518 --> 00:17:00.528 It's so much work. 00:17:00.528 --> 00:17:02.888 You have to plum that in through every part of your application. 00:17:03.313 --> 00:17:06.913 , there's a lot of thought to, into gating off features and functionalities and 00:17:07.133 --> 00:17:10.713 all of that requires code changes, or at least as it sounds like all of that 00:17:10.713 --> 00:17:12.393 did require code changes on some level. 00:17:13.273 --> 00:17:16.904 so it's, it's an a very interesting i, I guess value proposition for people 00:17:17.104 --> 00:17:17.184 building 00:17:17.444 --> 00:17:21.762 Anton: I think also like the, like the, the example he gave, like, it starts very 00:17:21.762 --> 00:17:24.792 simple, but once you, you know, trying to. 00:17:25.362 --> 00:17:30.522 To run changes on that pricing or like, as you said, adding plans? 00:17:30.527 --> 00:17:35.472 It started like becoming a very not straightforward engineering problem 00:17:35.477 --> 00:17:38.742 because usually when people see like you know, you, you, you wanna 00:17:38.742 --> 00:17:42.372 start pricing, you think of, okay, I'll just go to Stripe, I'll drop in 00:17:42.372 --> 00:17:47.160 their their APIs, I'm gonna use their embedded checkout hosted page, and 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:48.810 then everything is simple and I'm done. 00:17:49.050 --> 00:17:54.945 But it's not that accurately true, but, while Tribe does the, handles 00:17:54.945 --> 00:17:58.905 the payments, and handle the handles, the checkout experience, there's 00:17:58.905 --> 00:18:02.535 a, a lot of uncovered area there, which is around provisioning. 00:18:02.865 --> 00:18:05.745 Like provisioning is what happens after the checkout. 00:18:06.075 --> 00:18:11.235 How like, okay, so our customer has purchased this problem for $10 00:18:11.235 --> 00:18:14.415 a month, and right now we need to provisioning access to the feature. 00:18:15.330 --> 00:18:16.380 He's paying for it. 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:19.200 And this is where things started to get complicated. 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.830 He started looking for, okay, how I need to listen to this WebBook from Stripe. 00:18:23.130 --> 00:18:25.830 I need to understand the subscription lifecycle, the 00:18:25.830 --> 00:18:29.970 subscription started renewed, canceled, all this type of events. 00:18:29.970 --> 00:18:31.770 You need to handle that on your backend. 00:18:32.070 --> 00:18:35.310 And how do you reflect that in, in the app itself? 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:39.090 You know, like the subscription ended, we downgrade the user to the flip plan. 00:18:39.180 --> 00:18:42.600 We block evoke all access to the, to all the features in the 00:18:42.600 --> 00:18:44.550 application, this type of decision. 00:18:45.180 --> 00:18:47.520 Are very, are very fluid. 00:18:47.580 --> 00:18:48.810 They change over time. 00:18:48.810 --> 00:18:50.280 Like it's a, it's a business decision. 00:18:50.310 --> 00:18:55.080 Business decisions change and it's when developers and engineers start 00:18:55.770 --> 00:18:59.610 building this type of solutions, they, they have this like tunnel 00:18:59.610 --> 00:19:01.200 vision on what you need right now. 00:19:01.205 --> 00:19:04.140 Like the, the management told me this is our pricing. 00:19:04.145 --> 00:19:09.000 And they know, like in their standpoint of point of view, it's like this never 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:10.260 gonna change and it's just gonna. 00:19:11.100 --> 00:19:13.950 I just wanna get over with it and I want to continue on my life and 00:19:13.950 --> 00:19:17.220 building more interesting features and, you know, wiring up all this 00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:19.680 building side into my application. 00:19:20.310 --> 00:19:23.203 And this is actually the first the first event when you start 00:19:23.443 --> 00:19:25.183 gathering and aggregating this. 00:19:25.738 --> 00:19:30.088 Technical depth regarding those, you know, pricing and packaging 00:19:30.448 --> 00:19:32.548 stuff inside your application. 00:19:32.848 --> 00:19:38.248 And then this depth hinders you from, or at least cost you a lot once you 00:19:38.248 --> 00:19:41.018 try to, you know, to ang it later on. 00:19:41.050 --> 00:19:44.530 So this is something that engineers don't see at the first, like when 00:19:44.530 --> 00:19:45.920 they first approach this problem. 00:19:45.936 --> 00:19:49.866 So this, that's why we at stake, we're trying to educate and to trying to, 00:19:49.871 --> 00:19:54.291 you know talk about this, like how our approach, the entitlement approach 00:19:54.781 --> 00:19:58.791 simplifies things in that, in those areas that once you integrate with 00:19:58.796 --> 00:20:02.241 start con the concept of entitlement, similar to feature flex, like 00:20:02.241 --> 00:20:04.041 there's you, you start working in it. 00:20:04.046 --> 00:20:07.941 It's very natural to you once you see the value of using that. 00:20:08.431 --> 00:20:08.921 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:20:09.031 --> 00:20:09.521 Yeah. 00:20:09.751 --> 00:20:12.161 I think it's an interesting problem space too, because. 00:20:13.036 --> 00:20:14.576 All of our listeners are engineers. 00:20:14.576 --> 00:20:15.776 Most of our listeners are engineers. 00:20:15.776 --> 00:20:18.496 I guess I shouldn't make such a broad assumption, but you know, we, we have 00:20:18.496 --> 00:20:21.078 a lot of software developers that listen to the show and every single 00:20:21.078 --> 00:20:23.878 one of them, I'm sure can identify with the feeling of having to go and 00:20:23.878 --> 00:20:26.497 rebuild something that they finished and thought they were done with forever. 00:20:27.457 --> 00:20:31.036 but I think the other interesting side of this too is that product creators, 00:20:31.036 --> 00:20:32.156 the, the sort of product side of. 00:20:32.331 --> 00:20:36.091 Doesn't often have a full understanding of the amount of work engineers need to do to 00:20:36.091 --> 00:20:37.931 rework something fundamentally like that. 00:20:37.991 --> 00:20:41.371 And at the same time, engineers often don't understand that product. 00:20:41.371 --> 00:20:44.845 People need to be able to make sweeping, iterative changes to, 00:20:44.845 --> 00:20:46.225 to keep the product alive as well. 00:20:46.257 --> 00:20:47.817 So it's an interesting challenge for sure. 00:20:48.887 --> 00:20:51.431 I wanna shift gears a little bit understanding that the, what 00:20:51.431 --> 00:20:53.571 the product does and what it is and who you're talking to. 00:20:53.571 --> 00:20:55.076 Let's talk a little bit about how it's built, right? 00:20:55.076 --> 00:20:56.036 So your, your CTO. 00:20:56.186 --> 00:20:56.591 Dig. 00:20:56.624 --> 00:20:57.764 How is the platform built? 00:20:57.764 --> 00:20:58.564 What tools do you use? 00:20:58.564 --> 00:21:00.604 What li languages and libraries do you support? 00:21:00.671 --> 00:21:01.144 Anton: Yeah, sure. 00:21:01.144 --> 00:21:04.720 So so basically our current offering isn't like stickers an 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:06.550 API product, like from the get-go. 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.128 So basically we have craft, QL based api and we also have. 00:21:11.128 --> 00:21:12.132 Four is the case. 00:21:12.222 --> 00:21:17.112 I think for now we support no gs, Ruby, Python go and working more 00:21:17.112 --> 00:21:19.352 in SD case in the near future. 00:21:19.431 --> 00:21:23.241 But I think, like besides the APIs themselves, the API itself, 00:21:23.241 --> 00:21:27.373 I think that the more the main the main value is actually using in SD 00:21:27.378 --> 00:21:31.603 case because R SDKs are not just a wrapper around the api Rsdk. 00:21:32.268 --> 00:21:37.088 Are built specifically to handle the entitlement's problem, which, which means, 00:21:37.093 --> 00:21:40.008 which me directs me to this conversation. 00:21:40.008 --> 00:21:41.448 What is the entitlement's problem? 00:21:41.536 --> 00:21:44.476 And generally speaking of what entitlements are. 00:21:44.686 --> 00:21:47.605 So basically if you think of entitlements, it's something 00:21:47.605 --> 00:21:49.735 related to permissions in some way. 00:21:50.155 --> 00:21:50.485 Okay. 00:21:50.485 --> 00:21:51.775 So basically permissions are. 00:21:52.630 --> 00:21:57.520 Like definitions of what a user can do according to its role or its certain set 00:21:57.520 --> 00:22:02.620 of attributes and entitlements, on the other hand, are set of permissions that 00:22:02.860 --> 00:22:08.356 a customer is assigned to that can decide what, which features in the application. 00:22:08.996 --> 00:22:12.476 The customer subscribe to, like part of this license model, if you 00:22:12.476 --> 00:22:16.376 want to compare that and use those terms, which is a little bit outdated 00:22:16.376 --> 00:22:19.173 terms, but I think it's like a trend that's coming, coming back again. 00:22:19.563 --> 00:22:22.842 But So, yeah, so these are type of permissions. 00:22:22.842 --> 00:22:27.132 There need to be evaluated quickly and very often because every time the user 00:22:27.522 --> 00:22:31.032 interacts with your application, they probably, you need to do this type of 00:22:31.032 --> 00:22:34.152 check if the user subscribe according to its plan to use this feature. 00:22:34.422 --> 00:22:40.602 So the variation itself, it has to be like super fast, low latency, like and every. 00:22:41.532 --> 00:22:45.612 every bump in doing this decision in like in the process of making this 00:22:45.617 --> 00:22:49.482 decision can affect the, the overall like experience, user experience, 00:22:49.487 --> 00:22:52.402 and the latency of the, your API product or whatever you're building. 00:22:52.431 --> 00:22:57.255 So like our focus is basically allowing building the best as the case we can 00:22:57.255 --> 00:23:02.127 that evaluates with almost zero latency, those entitle checks, and you can safely 00:23:02.127 --> 00:23:03.786 use them within your product without. 00:23:04.386 --> 00:23:07.236 Even breaking or thinking of how you gonna, you know, what's the 00:23:07.236 --> 00:23:10.266 best way of implementing, then just do it, be a drop in and that's it. 00:23:10.266 --> 00:23:11.196 The problem is solved. 00:23:11.616 --> 00:23:15.258 So there's a lot of logic being going on in there, which, like, there's 00:23:15.258 --> 00:23:20.632 several factors like, you know caching and prefetching data or real time 00:23:20.632 --> 00:23:24.450 updates of this environment whenever they change this type of, you know, 00:23:24.450 --> 00:23:26.300 problems is something that is the case. 00:23:26.367 --> 00:23:29.741 And regarding our api, so basically there's a, that's as I mentioned, our 00:23:29.741 --> 00:23:33.960 main API is a Graph Q based api, which serves we, we call it a management 00:23:33.965 --> 00:23:37.722 api basically because it's usually the the API that our, like user 00:23:37.722 --> 00:23:39.625 interface is using our application. 00:23:39.627 --> 00:23:43.267 And we have another set of APIs, which we call them the Edge APIs. 00:23:43.310 --> 00:23:45.680 And those APIs are basically a build. 00:23:45.689 --> 00:23:48.867 On, we're using as a lot of AWS services as we can. 00:23:48.911 --> 00:23:53.486 So the Edge API leverages the cloud front, lambda edge type of 00:23:53.526 --> 00:23:57.432 distribution, which means our code executed at the closest region. 00:23:57.432 --> 00:23:59.339 To the user that invokes that api. 00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:04.986 And we also using dynamo DB's Global tables feature, which means that all data 00:24:04.991 --> 00:24:09.466 is replicated across multiple regions so that those lamb, that functions 00:24:09.586 --> 00:24:12.766 run on the edge can access their data closest to them, basically from the 00:24:12.766 --> 00:24:14.116 same region that they're rely on. 00:24:14.536 --> 00:24:15.916 And that's how we. 00:24:15.968 --> 00:24:20.346 The minimum latency we can globally regarding to all this mission critical 00:24:20.346 --> 00:24:24.600 data, which involves the usage, the entitlements and we also gained the 00:24:24.644 --> 00:24:27.685 uptime guarantee of AWS for the services. 00:24:27.781 --> 00:24:31.534 So we, so cus our customers can feel much more safer depending, you 00:24:31.534 --> 00:24:33.732 know, on the, on the giants like aw. 00:24:33.732 --> 00:24:37.465 To handle this type of failures if there, if there were any failures in it, 00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:38.430 Mike Bifulco: Sure, yeah. 00:24:38.710 --> 00:24:42.004 are using a lot of hardened infrastructure and a lot of, a 00:24:42.004 --> 00:24:44.590 lot of devs will be interested in hearing about edge APIs as well. 00:24:44.590 --> 00:24:47.030 That's something that seems to be a, a hot ticket lately too. 00:24:47.128 --> 00:24:48.128 Didn't think to ask this before. 00:24:48.128 --> 00:24:51.846 Do you do your APIs or your libraries support mobile use cases at the moment? 00:24:53.141 --> 00:24:55.599 Anton: So our focus is not mobile right now. 00:24:55.599 --> 00:25:00.789 Our focus is basically on like non-mobile SaaS companies, but that's something 00:25:00.789 --> 00:25:02.170 that we are also starting looking at. 00:25:02.329 --> 00:25:02.819 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:25:02.819 --> 00:25:03.299 Got it. 00:25:03.369 --> 00:25:03.859 Yeah. 00:25:03.859 --> 00:25:07.059 Thi this is another one of those like scars I have from, from a past life. 00:25:07.059 --> 00:25:09.259 But mobile stuff is really complicated because a lot of it 00:25:09.259 --> 00:25:12.585 is governed pricing and all that is governed by apple or Google. 00:25:13.465 --> 00:25:15.625 and then even that changes depending on the country and 00:25:15.625 --> 00:25:17.905 what features you can enable and disable are really complicated too. 00:25:17.905 --> 00:25:21.119 But I think the The idea of entitlements is something that, you 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:22.679 know, is, is fairly universal there. 00:25:23.889 --> 00:25:27.659 so support Node, ruby, Python and go at the moment. 00:25:27.659 --> 00:25:29.099 How many engineers do you have working on that? 00:25:30.694 --> 00:25:33.331 Anton: So currently we're a team of AI engineers. 00:25:33.331 --> 00:25:39.061 , so yeah, everyone, like basically working like from day zero, I think at stake, my 00:25:39.061 --> 00:25:43.741 most, my, like, my vision was to hire the best people and all, do the best engineers 00:25:43.741 --> 00:25:48.151 I know in order to, you know, build a solid foundation that we can grow up. 00:25:48.189 --> 00:25:52.042 So like from, even from the day one, I think all the engineers that we 00:25:52.042 --> 00:25:53.809 are, were always full stack versatile. 00:25:53.809 --> 00:25:58.413 They can go through, you know, build one day they build our web application. 00:25:58.413 --> 00:26:00.213 Then the next day they build this dk. 00:26:00.303 --> 00:26:02.073 Next day they work on the Edge API. 00:26:02.078 --> 00:26:07.477 And like this this like multi, you know, multifunctional team can Work much 00:26:07.477 --> 00:26:11.767 more efficient than having this type of, you know, usually like separation 00:26:11.767 --> 00:26:14.437 between that there's a front end engineer, a back engineer, and then 00:26:14.437 --> 00:26:17.833 they, it's hard to, you know coordinate the work together with along them. 00:26:17.838 --> 00:26:21.403 So basically having a team of full stacks for a startup at the early 00:26:21.403 --> 00:26:22.933 stage is a very big advantage. 00:26:23.443 --> 00:26:23.933 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:26:23.933 --> 00:26:24.253 Yeah. 00:26:24.253 --> 00:26:24.493 Wow. 00:26:24.493 --> 00:26:26.761 Sounds like a lot of very talented and very busy folks 00:26:26.785 --> 00:26:27.732 working hard on your product. 00:26:27.794 --> 00:26:29.619 Well, what are the things that you're thinking about next? 00:26:29.619 --> 00:26:32.379 Like what are sort of the, the next features or problems that 00:26:32.379 --> 00:26:33.605 you're interested in addressing? 00:26:33.945 --> 00:26:38.115 Anton: So I think that our current focus right now is building as I 00:26:38.115 --> 00:26:43.095 said, the best, like out for world class entitlements, infrastructure 00:26:43.095 --> 00:26:44.605 and pricing, packaging infrastructure. 00:26:44.675 --> 00:26:49.127 And going forward, I think that our focus will be simply improving the 00:26:49.517 --> 00:26:52.127 dev tool set around this problem. 00:26:52.187 --> 00:26:53.867 I think that's the most critical part. 00:26:53.867 --> 00:26:54.077 Okay. 00:26:54.082 --> 00:26:55.934 If you need to ask me what is your edge? 00:26:55.934 --> 00:26:57.524 Like what, what, what, what's your focus? 00:26:57.524 --> 00:27:00.734 I can, you know, there's a lot, there are probably some companies 00:27:00.734 --> 00:27:04.046 that are near your you know, in those areas or outside this area. 00:27:04.046 --> 00:27:04.256 Never. 00:27:05.216 --> 00:27:06.506 , like, how do you stand out? 00:27:06.506 --> 00:27:11.036 I think that the way things stand out is basically focusing on the developer 00:27:11.036 --> 00:27:17.636 experience in a deaf persona and trying to reduce the work that those 00:27:17.636 --> 00:27:22.224 engineers that are tasked to do to work on the pricing for a company. 00:27:22.291 --> 00:27:27.686 Trying to retake the, the, as much work as we can from them to us 00:27:28.046 --> 00:27:30.206 and to enable them to move faster. 00:27:31.466 --> 00:27:35.667 If it's improving our tools, improving APIs supporting more different 00:27:35.667 --> 00:27:39.627 problems and different use cases that they face, I think that's, 00:27:39.627 --> 00:27:43.057 that, that that's the thing that we truly believe will make a difference. 00:27:43.077 --> 00:27:44.867 And in general, make our customers more happy. 00:27:44.918 --> 00:27:45.248 So yeah. 00:27:45.423 --> 00:27:46.425 Mike Bifulco: Yeah, no doubt. 00:27:46.425 --> 00:27:47.385 Are you hiring at the moment? 00:27:47.435 --> 00:27:51.191 Anton: Yeah, actually we do we are in a position of growing and we are 00:27:51.196 --> 00:27:54.851 looking for the first thing that we are looking, the most thing that is 00:27:55.031 --> 00:28:00.821 in demand right now is a dev position, like looking for a dev to join us. 00:28:00.821 --> 00:28:02.921 So basically every developer that loves. 00:28:03.581 --> 00:28:07.091 Working with different, with APIs, with this is the case and love to 00:28:07.091 --> 00:28:10.483 help other developers and getting feedback, feedback from other 00:28:10.483 --> 00:28:12.217 developers on those type of tools. 00:28:12.217 --> 00:28:16.132 This is something I think will be a, a great addition to our team. 00:28:16.152 --> 00:28:21.372 And there's a full description in our careers page in our website and state I. 00:28:21.897 --> 00:28:25.911 So so anyone who's interested can jump in and read more about it. 00:28:25.936 --> 00:28:26.426 Mike Bifulco: Cool. 00:28:26.426 --> 00:28:26.946 Yeah, that's great. 00:28:26.946 --> 00:28:29.170 I'll make sure I put a link in the show notes here too. 00:28:29.239 --> 00:28:29.938 So okay. 00:28:29.938 --> 00:28:33.139 My final question is maybe a bit of a curve ball, but so you've explained 00:28:33.139 --> 00:28:35.822 fairly well the problem of pricing and the approach you're taking to 00:28:35.902 --> 00:28:39.689 building out these APIs to help people work on their pricing and iterate on 00:28:39.689 --> 00:28:41.209 pricing plans and make changes quickly. 00:28:42.629 --> 00:28:46.607 how is Stig using Stig to to work on your own pricing and to, to tests 00:28:46.607 --> 00:28:48.047 and evaluate what you're doing? 00:28:49.307 --> 00:28:53.874 Anton: Yeah, so basically our, our own pricing is Bill using our own components, 00:28:53.874 --> 00:28:57.714 our own widget, like our, if you go to a pricing page, you'll see those pricing 00:28:57.714 --> 00:29:01.453 plans and it's there's a badge of power by stick that's basically one of our 00:29:01.453 --> 00:29:03.679 widget that we that we are using our own. 00:29:03.679 --> 00:29:08.291 And I think that like a stake the core concept of pricing 00:29:08.329 --> 00:29:09.572 is basically the ability to. 00:29:10.607 --> 00:29:14.297 . So we are modeling our own pricing using Stig, and we also 00:29:14.297 --> 00:29:18.407 leveraging our capabilities of experimenting with this pricing. 00:29:18.437 --> 00:29:20.927 So this is something, a topic that we didn't talk before, 00:29:20.927 --> 00:29:22.781 but it's also very interesting. 00:29:22.781 --> 00:29:26.126 So when we tried and, you know, started playing with our own 00:29:26.126 --> 00:29:31.196 pricing, I think that what we felt comfortable most is that because we 00:29:31.196 --> 00:29:33.246 are using stick, we don't have to. 00:29:33.248 --> 00:29:34.383 Commit to the pricing. 00:29:34.503 --> 00:29:39.123 know, we can always make the op made the decision to change it, and 00:29:39.123 --> 00:29:42.453 it'll not cost us any engineering effort in this, in this process. 00:29:42.843 --> 00:29:46.406 So so like if you ask a company like why you don't change your 00:29:46.406 --> 00:29:50.216 pricing often, they usually tell you that it's because it's hard. 00:29:50.216 --> 00:29:52.776 We don't change it because it's hard and over how like we. 00:29:53.246 --> 00:29:56.156 Talk with a bunch of different teams and get one on board, and 00:29:56.156 --> 00:29:58.766 then talk with the engineering and run those, all these changes. 00:29:58.766 --> 00:30:01.586 And then that's why they do it like once a year with the best. 00:30:02.366 --> 00:30:06.926 but if you, if you break that paradigm and start using the flexible 00:30:07.286 --> 00:30:10.466 infrastructure that allows you to do these changes more often. 00:30:11.021 --> 00:30:13.031 , then you won't have this problem. 00:30:13.031 --> 00:30:19.331 You can change pricing twice, three times a week, So yeah, so 00:30:19.336 --> 00:30:23.372 that's, that's basically how we also leverage in Stig inside Stig. 00:30:23.457 --> 00:30:23.947 Mike Bifulco: Sure. 00:30:23.947 --> 00:30:24.227 Yeah. 00:30:24.227 --> 00:30:26.507 It's, it's surprising the amount of difference that can make for an early 00:30:26.507 --> 00:30:30.147 stage business too, being able to hone in on exactly the right price 00:30:30.547 --> 00:30:33.387 strategy and, and price levels that your customers are willing to pay for. 00:30:33.387 --> 00:30:35.467 A lot of it can be based on feedback and things like that, 00:30:35.467 --> 00:30:36.747 but experimentation helps too. 00:30:38.252 --> 00:30:42.606 Anton: Yeah, I think experimentation will, will be like a, a core feature 00:30:42.606 --> 00:30:44.548 in price and packaging solutions. 00:30:44.548 --> 00:30:50.068 I think that experimentation allows you to make mistakes and mistake those 00:30:50.068 --> 00:30:53.938 mistakes won't be as costly as, as a mistake that you can often undo. 00:30:54.178 --> 00:30:56.038 Like every time, like even, you know 00:30:56.198 --> 00:30:58.808 When we build software, there's like, usually there's bugs. 00:30:58.898 --> 00:31:03.398 Like it's, it's an in available, so basically even if you deploy something 00:31:03.403 --> 00:31:06.758 and it doesn't work, what you do, you, you roll, you, you have the ability 00:31:06.758 --> 00:31:10.928 to roll back, or at least you, you add disability like in your c i CD, 00:31:10.928 --> 00:31:12.518 orchestrations or what whatsoever. 00:31:13.088 --> 00:31:15.623 Without it, you're, You're helpless. 00:31:15.623 --> 00:31:18.803 You need to, to, you know, to fix it and re-deploy it. 00:31:18.808 --> 00:31:23.093 And, and this process takes much more time than the, if you had the 00:31:23.098 --> 00:31:25.193 ability to just roll back your change. 00:31:25.583 --> 00:31:29.213 So stake in some way is, is, is that rollback? 00:31:29.303 --> 00:31:33.113 Like this is, we grant give you the ability to, to regret 00:31:34.828 --> 00:31:36.838 Mike Bifulco: Yeah, I can see that for sure. 00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:38.772 Anton it's been really great chatting with you today. 00:31:38.772 --> 00:31:41.012 One of the things I wanna make sure I ask is, where can people find you? 00:31:41.012 --> 00:31:42.892 Where's the best place to chase you down if people have 00:31:42.892 --> 00:31:43.972 thoughts or questions for you? 00:31:44.432 --> 00:31:44.852 Anton: Yeah, sure. 00:31:44.852 --> 00:31:46.542 So you can find me on LinkedIn. 00:31:46.542 --> 00:31:50.638 I think like also pretty trying to be active on GI as well. 00:31:50.638 --> 00:31:53.830 I'm not a big Twitter user unfortunately. 00:31:53.830 --> 00:31:56.448 I know that's missing something, but I don't have an Instagram, 00:31:56.448 --> 00:31:57.318 so yeah, I'm not a good 00:31:57.367 --> 00:31:57.987 Mike Bifulco: Got it. 00:31:58.952 --> 00:32:02.948 Anton: Another, a good example of being to into social platforms, but 00:32:02.948 --> 00:32:04.598 I think that LinkedIn and GI are, 00:32:04.788 --> 00:32:05.508 Mike Bifulco: Yeah, well, 00:32:05.618 --> 00:32:05.708 Anton: the 00:32:05.898 --> 00:32:07.068 Mike Bifulco: you're a focused man. 00:32:07.068 --> 00:32:08.668 There's no, no need to apologize there. 00:32:08.668 --> 00:32:08.981 That's 00:32:09.011 --> 00:32:12.080 that's good stuff I've also Twitter recently, so you know, 00:32:12.080 --> 00:32:14.632 people have heard me endlessly complaining about I dislike Twitter. 00:32:14.632 --> 00:32:14.868 Yeah. 00:32:14.868 --> 00:32:15.348 That's wonderful. 00:32:15.348 --> 00:32:17.628 I'll, I'll make sure I link to your LinkedIn and, and GitHub 00:32:17.628 --> 00:32:18.811 profiles in the show notes as well. 00:32:18.817 --> 00:32:19.217 Yeah. 00:32:19.217 --> 00:32:20.457 Thanks so much for joining today, Anton. 00:32:20.457 --> 00:32:21.617 I really appreciated chatting with you. 00:32:21.620 --> 00:32:25.561 This was Anton from Stig there'll be a link in the show notes to both the, 00:32:25.561 --> 00:32:29.212 the product page as well as jobs for Stig and contact information for Anton. 00:32:29.212 --> 00:32:30.492 Anton, thanks so much for hanging out. 00:32:30.492 --> 00:32:31.212 I really appreciate it. 00:32:31.527 --> 00:32:32.407 Anton: Yeah, me too. 00:32:32.407 --> 00:32:33.397 Thanks for having me. 00:32:33.457 --> 00:32:34.267 I had a good time. 00:32:34.322 --> 00:32:34.482 Mike Bifulco: course. 00:32:34.682 --> 00:32:35.242 Yeah, thanks.