WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.400 Music. 00:00:08.399 --> 00:00:19.089 I'm Pastor Luke. I am Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast where we have uncut and honest conversations about faith, 00:00:19.426 --> 00:00:22.298 life and ministry. 00:00:23.144 --> 00:00:28.096 So Cameron, how, I don't know, how are you doing? How's your week? 00:00:28.929 --> 00:00:42.989 It's been a very hectic week. It's been one of those weeks where you feel like you run super fast, but then you look 00:00:42.989 --> 00:00:50.709 behind you and you're not really sure what you got accomplished. 00:00:50.709 --> 00:00:57.309 Although I know that I did. We're having a family meeting here at Conduit this week. 00:00:58.172 --> 00:01:03.309 I prepared... Like an all hands on deck kind of meeting. All, yep, mm-hmm, just like, you know, good old-fashioned 00:01:03.465 --> 00:01:08.309 dad yells down, or yells from the living room, all right everyone, family meeting. 00:01:08.309 --> 00:01:14.309 And so did a lot of preparing for that, preparing like actual content, 00:01:14.309 --> 00:01:17.734 but then like also preparing my heart for it. 00:01:19.517 --> 00:01:22.309 And of course preparing to preach, starting a new series this week in Romans. 00:01:22.309 --> 00:01:26.700 Yep, Romans. And kind of prepared two sermons. 00:01:27.309 --> 00:01:34.509 One for this week and like feeling like I didn't want to prepare the first one without 00:01:34.667 --> 00:01:39.916 preparing the second one too to make sure they're connect, you know, they kind of connect in some way. 00:01:40.149 --> 00:01:48.569 So did that and got lots of people stuff going on all the time too, trying to shepherd people 00:01:48.569 --> 00:02:01.289 and love people and yeah, you get to a day like Thursday at almost 3 o'clock and, well, 00:02:01.289 --> 00:02:04.289 Thursday's our Friday because we take Fridays off. 00:02:04.289 --> 00:02:05.289 So. 00:02:06.904 --> 00:02:11.314 It's like, I don't, I, we'll see how much Friday is an off day, right? 00:02:11.874 --> 00:02:16.375 It won't be for me this week. Friday is a, will be a full work day this week. So, 00:02:17.518 --> 00:02:18.688 what about you? How are you? 00:02:18.913 --> 00:02:24.274 Uh, I think I've had a little bit of an easier week, but just generally resonate with you. Cause 00:02:24.274 --> 00:02:30.434 it's been like that month. I think this month has just been like, uh, you know, I don't know 00:02:30.434 --> 00:02:36.114 if it's just like everything kind of coming due at the same time, or just like a lot of like. 00:02:38.354 --> 00:02:46.434 You know, I was, you know, we both released, I listened to the Craig Grishall leadership podcast, 00:02:46.434 --> 00:02:52.834 I know you do too. So like his, his talking about last couple of episodes on that podcast 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:58.514 been about like momentum. And he talks about like, it's going to take way more work than you 00:02:58.514 --> 00:03:03.295 think it's going to, to start and maintain momentum. 00:03:03.634 --> 00:03:09.394 And I'm just like, yeah, I feel that. Just like, you just like, you're like, 00:03:09.394 --> 00:03:11.234 all right, I want this thing to happen. 00:03:11.234 --> 00:03:16.194 I want like small groups to do well. I wanna like, you know, finish this big project. 00:03:16.194 --> 00:03:25.152 Like, it's gonna take like sticking at it, like being really, really doggedly determined and just... 00:03:26.304 --> 00:03:31.036 Going yeah, you know and that takes a lot of energy, and it just feels like there's just a lot of that right now 00:03:31.036 --> 00:03:38.676 Yeah, I I do oftentimes wonder about the balance in ministry leadership. I guess specifically pastoral leadership is, 00:03:39.412 --> 00:03:43.976 where We've been obviously, but yes is the difference between. 00:03:45.596 --> 00:03:51.376 Like two types of energies mm-hmm the we'll just call them like the sprinting energy and, 00:03:52.776 --> 00:03:54.698 marathon energy mm-hmm, 00:03:55.427 --> 00:04:04.776 So, the energy where you sprint super fast for a short period of time and kind of run 00:04:05.176 --> 00:04:08.615 at a chaotic, frenetic pace. 00:04:08.876 --> 00:04:12.711 And what types of situations is that necessary? 00:04:13.458 --> 00:04:17.136 And what type of effectiveness or efficiency do you get out of that? 00:04:17.136 --> 00:04:21.713 And then the marathon pace, which I would describe. 00:04:28.276 --> 00:04:35.376 By the way that Eugene Peterson describes, which is more of like just a long obedience, 00:04:36.156 --> 00:04:37.143 in the same direction. 00:04:38.611 --> 00:04:47.910 So like looking behind you and seeing years of consistency years of consistency that has produced, 00:04:48.276 --> 00:04:52.483 or that has produced fruit, or how has that been effective? 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:53.410 It's not efficient. 00:04:56.356 --> 00:05:01.053 One of my seminary professors once said that ministry, do not try to make ministry efficient. 00:05:01.197 --> 00:05:02.602 It will never be efficient. 00:05:03.996 --> 00:05:06.796 Ministry will never be efficient. It's never gonna be an assembly line. 00:05:06.796 --> 00:05:11.784 Yeah. It can be effective, but it will almost never be efficient. 00:05:12.648 --> 00:05:16.348 And so, yeah, I don't like the chaotic paces. 00:05:23.037 --> 00:05:30.967 I really don't. I feel like in weeks where my pace is really fast and chaotic, 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:42.487 I feel emotionally vulnerable and spiritually vulnerable. I feel a little bit more, 00:05:42.487 --> 00:05:55.733 Or maybe a little bit more on edge, I'm a little bit shorter with people. 00:05:55.913 --> 00:06:11.907 I tend to react more than I tend to respond. But there also is, going back to your point about Craig Grishel and his Getmo, Getmo Momentum 00:06:12.135 --> 00:06:23.387 podcast, I do seem to cover a lot of ground in those chaotic weeks and the momentum of 00:06:23.387 --> 00:06:25.918 of going kind of keeps me going. 00:06:26.067 --> 00:06:26.440 Else. 00:06:27.493 --> 00:06:34.983 So it's hard. No, it is like I had a this makes me think of a college professor. I had dr. Kessler 00:06:34.983 --> 00:06:40.903 He was an old kind of I think he liked to pretend he was more curmudgeon II than he actually was 00:06:40.903 --> 00:06:46.583 But he definitely, you know an older pastor who retired to become a professor and teach pastors. 00:06:47.892 --> 00:06:52.924 Like one time he kind of paused in the middle of his lecture and he just felt like he kind of had to like say 00:06:53.223 --> 00:07:00.023 something to the younger generation. And he was just like, you guys are so concerned with finding 00:07:00.023 --> 00:07:06.743 the right balance in life. He's like, I'm going to give you a secret. There isn't any. He was just 00:07:06.743 --> 00:07:13.543 like, stop trying to fight for like some sort of perfect balance where things aren't going to feel 00:07:13.543 --> 00:07:19.463 ever crazy, where everything's going to feel perfectly balanced. He's like, it can't happen. 00:07:19.553 --> 00:07:23.383 It won't happen. You're going to have weeks where some things are going to take more of 00:07:23.383 --> 00:07:28.263 your energy than the others. Just on the weeks it doesn't have to, give it back attention to 00:07:28.263 --> 00:07:33.813 the other things that you can give attention to. And when he said that, I really disliked it. 00:07:34.497 --> 00:07:40.343 I was like, I don't like that. Cause like we're, I think our generation, I think the culture is 00:07:40.343 --> 00:07:45.894 very much like, if you can find the right technique, the right time hack, time management has 00:07:46.103 --> 00:07:51.623 become such a big, massive thing, then you can find a way to make all of your 00:07:51.623 --> 00:07:55.283 tasks and get all these things done seemingly effortlessly, right? 00:07:55.943 --> 00:08:02.583 That's the belief. Yeah. And I think he's right in that that doesn't exactly exist. 00:08:02.983 --> 00:08:03.823 So I don't know. 00:08:03.823 --> 00:08:10.343 I've been of the persuasion that there will be times where things feel a little 00:08:10.343 --> 00:08:14.223 bit off kilter, where you're going to have to sprint a little bit in the middle 00:08:14.223 --> 00:08:21.103 of the race, you're going uphill. Maybe if we want to keep the marathon language. You shouldn't do 00:08:21.103 --> 00:08:29.583 that all the time. That would be bad. But you might need to work a little bit harder to get up 00:08:29.583 --> 00:08:30.860 a certain hill. Sure. Sure. 00:08:31.503 --> 00:08:36.463 So I don't know. Yeah. It's definitely, but it's not a place I don't think either of us want to 00:08:36.463 --> 00:08:43.337 live, because I find that if I stay there too long, I eventually start, like, I start coming apart. 00:08:44.607 --> 00:08:52.799 I just, you know. Yeah. I just, I particularly don't like it because I just don't like what it does to me emotionally. 00:08:53.042 --> 00:08:55.076 Yeah. I just don't feel... 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:03.439 Like I think if I really feel like it jeopardizes my ability to love particularly in my family. Well, hmm. Yeah, 00:09:04.763 --> 00:09:11.367 because I come home and I'm like just Vanquished I'm done. Yeah, cuz you're expending your prime energy, 00:09:12.298 --> 00:09:18.687 Yeah here right in the ministry. So it takes extra work to cut then come home. Mm-hmm and be. 00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:32.667 Like have the right Be able to serve my family, love my wife well, be patient with my kids, not just fall on 00:09:32.667 --> 00:09:38.197 the couch and mindlessly scroll on my phone for the rest of the night. 00:09:39.277 --> 00:09:44.076 But play chess with Noah, who checkmated me for the first time the other night. 00:09:44.267 --> 00:09:47.244 Shout out to Noah. Yeah. It's getting really good. 00:09:48.424 --> 00:09:56.107 I don't like it. I do like it, but... Right. I do like it, but I hate losing. 00:09:56.107 --> 00:10:03.107 And so, yeah, those are maybe long answers to how we're doing questions. 00:10:03.107 --> 00:10:06.747 Yeah, but I think that's pertinent to kind of what we've been talking about. 00:10:06.747 --> 00:10:12.107 We're talking about how to grow as a Christian, right? 00:10:12.107 --> 00:10:19.347 I think some of the conversation we were having last week lends to point out that if you're 00:10:19.347 --> 00:10:24.547 not considering things like that, if you're just saying, well, I need to grow as a Christian 00:10:24.547 --> 00:10:31.725 by reading more books, having more theological understanding. But if you're not considering, 00:10:32.094 --> 00:10:37.747 okay, what is your schedule and what is your ability to show up and love your family, 00:10:38.413 --> 00:10:45.107 show up and love those at your church, is that true Christian discipleship? We're not considering 00:10:45.107 --> 00:10:50.080 Yeah, yeah, no, I I agree we. 00:10:51.737 --> 00:10:57.107 I think we talked in part one, it was technically part two of the podcast, we did on how to 00:10:57.107 --> 00:11:03.332 grow spiritually, but in part one, we talked about what we would talk about in part two. 00:11:03.413 --> 00:11:09.667 We did. What are some of those unconsidered or things that we don't often consider as key parts of, 00:11:10.650 --> 00:11:14.627 the, if you want to call it recipe, to grow spiritually. 00:11:17.852 --> 00:11:21.201 And I had mentioned that I thought community. Yep. 00:11:21.471 --> 00:11:27.827 You know, that community was a really key and important part. And you had talked about, 00:11:29.141 --> 00:11:33.696 spiritual disciplines, right? Yeah, formation over information is how I kind of put it. 00:11:33.876 --> 00:11:37.827 Right. So I don't know which one of those you want to take first, 00:11:37.827 --> 00:11:39.267 which one you want to take second, but... 00:11:40.691 --> 00:11:46.387 Well, maybe let's take the like formation idea, like spiritual disciplines and stuff, 00:11:46.533 --> 00:11:50.067 because I think that'll lead us into a bit of a conversation around community and set the. 00:11:50.765 --> 00:11:54.827 The ground for it, because we talked about... 00:11:54.827 --> 00:11:57.993 What did you say were the essentials that everybody always thinks of? 00:11:58.387 --> 00:12:02.017 Reading the Bible and praying. Reading the Bible, praying. Maybe go to church. Show up to church. 00:12:02.395 --> 00:12:10.027 Yeah. Right. And those are certainly... Those are kind of, in their own way, spiritual disciplines or things like that. 00:12:10.027 --> 00:12:18.307 They're things that we can do to grow spiritually, but there is... 00:12:18.307 --> 00:12:23.507 Because you are reading your Bible does not mean you're growing spiritually. 00:12:24.037 --> 00:12:32.958 Correct. Right? There's like... there are people who make a living writing academic papers about the Bible 00:12:33.084 --> 00:12:41.987 who do not know Jesus. You know? Like, they're... not every person who writes academic study on 00:12:41.987 --> 00:12:49.747 on biblical texts and contributes to papers and studies is a Christian. 00:12:49.747 --> 00:12:56.647 Very true. That's, you know, and so simply reading the text does not make you a Christian. 00:12:56.647 --> 00:12:57.647 What are you thinking about? 00:12:57.647 --> 00:13:00.647 Who are you thinking about? I was gonna name names. Who are you gonna name? 00:13:00.647 --> 00:13:05.527 I thought that that was probably inappropriate. Oh. I was gonna name people, like, from, like, Jesus Seminar. 00:13:05.798 --> 00:13:07.680 Oh yeah, the Jesus Seminar. Mm-hmm. 00:13:08.047 --> 00:13:13.487 It's a great example. Yeah. Some some of you might remember when when was that was that the 90s? 00:13:14.234 --> 00:13:19.068 Well, I think from the 70s to the 90s. Yeah, really? I mean the Jesus seminar was. 00:13:20.823 --> 00:13:23.425 Is a essentially a group of. 00:13:24.532 --> 00:13:30.321 I mean, they're scholars, they're… Yeah, academics. Yeah, academics, historians. 00:13:31.182 --> 00:13:44.342 Some of them would call themselves theologians, I suppose. But they took basically a… they used what you would call, or what we would call a hermeneutic 00:13:44.342 --> 00:13:45.877 of suspicion. 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:54.222 Yes. So coming out of post-enlightenment time period that we're in now, we're in post-enlightenment 00:13:54.222 --> 00:14:06.542 now, where the Enlightenment era, the 1700s up into the 1900s, the 21st century or so, 00:14:06.951 --> 00:14:17.742 was all about scientific method and formulaic understanding of pretty much the entire world. 00:14:17.742 --> 00:14:25.202 And what you couldn't explain with the scientific method was automatically treated with a suspicion 00:14:25.202 --> 00:14:29.262 of its validity or its truthfulness. Paul Right. Can it be tested? 00:14:29.262 --> 00:14:30.262 Like in a science lab. 00:14:30.699 --> 00:14:36.722 John Right. You know, and so the Jesus Seminar was a bunch of, was a seminar, actually, it was a conference 00:14:36.722 --> 00:14:45.066 or a series of conferences where historians, theologians, academics essentially said, we, 00:14:45.162 --> 00:14:49.442 the lens through which we will view scripture is a lens of suspicion. 00:14:49.442 --> 00:14:52.187 It is guilty of being untrue. 00:14:53.844 --> 00:14:55.320 It must prove itself. 00:14:56.580 --> 00:15:05.150 To be innocent or to be found true, right? And so they essentially jettisoned every aspect of, 00:15:06.270 --> 00:15:15.150 both Jewish and Christian theology that could not stand up underneath the rigor of literary, 00:15:16.270 --> 00:15:22.350 criticism, historical criticism, academic criticism, scientific criticism, and said, 00:15:23.101 --> 00:15:28.710 that, you know, it's, you know, a lot of them, for instance, you know, one of the, you know, 00:15:28.772 --> 00:15:36.415 the primary things that they really just kind of rejected outright is the notion that Jesus is God. 00:15:37.046 --> 00:15:40.629 Well, a lot of them rejected the notion that Jesus claimed to be God. 00:15:40.872 --> 00:15:47.830 Correct. Right? Their assumption was, they're like, well, like, you know, almost no one, in case you're 00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:50.333 listening and you're wondering, almost no one. 00:15:50.590 --> 00:15:58.190 Ever find someone who's just like Jesus didn't exist, they are in such a small minority. 00:15:58.750 --> 00:16:05.790 Right. Like... Even people who are atheists. Yes, atheists shouldn't be denying the fact that Jesus Christ existed. 00:16:05.790 --> 00:16:13.070 As a historical person. As a historical person, right. Who he think he is is where debate comes in. 00:16:13.070 --> 00:16:13.310 Right. 00:16:14.216 --> 00:16:19.023 But like, they were under the assumption that Jesus must have been a really good 00:16:19.419 --> 00:16:26.110 teacher, a really good rabbi, who did die on a cross, but he didn't rise and he never proclaimed 00:16:26.110 --> 00:16:30.350 himself to be Christ or to be God. That's their assertion. 00:16:30.350 --> 00:16:33.710 That's their assertion. And so when they read the Bible, they say, well, 00:16:34.430 --> 00:16:41.070 since the Bible seems to say these things, our assumption or presupposition is that that couldn't 00:16:41.070 --> 00:16:47.710 have been... That's a myth that came up later as time went on and was added to the Scripture. 00:16:47.710 --> 00:16:48.030 Yeah. 00:16:48.082 --> 00:16:56.430 So, it's that kind of thing. But there's no peace or historical evidence to say that Christ didn't, 00:16:57.202 --> 00:17:01.550 claim to be God. They're assuming... 00:17:00.677 --> 00:17:03.167 But he couldn't be. He couldn't be. Yeah. 00:17:03.305 --> 00:17:06.951 And so he never did. You're right. They're making those assumptions and things like that. 00:17:09.727 --> 00:17:14.351 So anyway... So anyways... You don't have to be a Christian to write theology books. 00:17:14.687 --> 00:17:20.767 Right. And there's plenty... Yeah. And people who read the Bible are not transformed by it. And so 00:17:20.767 --> 00:17:27.567 that brings in a really cool way of talking about this is saying it's not just. 00:17:28.593 --> 00:17:38.407 Just orthodoxy, it's orthopraxy, which is like orthodoxy, I'm talking about right belief. 00:17:38.407 --> 00:17:41.979 Orthopraxy is talking about right practice. 00:17:42.327 --> 00:17:53.367 And so, which is a really... I think is something that our, particularly evangelical, non-denominational churches don't 00:17:53.367 --> 00:18:02.967 consider very much. Because we've so much been like... Because a lot of the stuff, at least when 00:18:02.967 --> 00:18:07.545 I was growing up in the church, it was a lot of like, we don't wanna be a dead religion. We don't 00:18:07.927 --> 00:18:12.807 wanna just do things because they've always been done that way. So there's a whole lot of freedom 00:18:12.807 --> 00:18:19.767 and expression of how we do worship and the expression of it, the inclusion of guitars and 00:18:19.767 --> 00:18:27.873 drums and lights and all of that stuff is kind of just like a freedom for how we practice worship, 00:18:28.296 --> 00:18:34.807 which I think is good. But at the same time, that mass amount of freedom sometimes has led us. 00:18:35.407 --> 00:18:41.527 Led the sector of the church to do things without perhaps the consideration that there are 00:18:41.527 --> 00:18:46.615 wrong things, or perhaps less good things. Right. 00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:52.007 Right. Did we talk about Mario Kart or the Mario Church? Yes, we did. 00:18:52.007 --> 00:19:00.087 Church doing the Mario game and stuff. Is that right practice? You could argue over, 00:19:00.087 --> 00:19:08.167 like, is it a big... But I do think that there is something to consider in not just. 00:19:08.887 --> 00:19:12.447 Not just approaching the word, but in how we approach the word. 00:19:12.447 --> 00:19:18.407 And that's where I think a lot of times our knowledge and our skill in spiritual growth 00:19:18.407 --> 00:19:25.647 kind of wears down, where we kind of lack a little bit. Do you agree, or do you think... 00:19:25.647 --> 00:19:27.135 No, I definitely agree. 00:19:27.333 --> 00:19:33.447 I definitely agree. I mean, I think it is a little bit one in the same of the conversation that we had last 00:19:33.447 --> 00:19:39.567 week about, um, you know, the, Hey, 00:19:41.691 --> 00:19:46.181 the prevalence of, well, I mean, going back to just the definition of formation, 00:19:46.181 --> 00:19:49.941 the prevalence of the desire to gain theological information 00:19:49.941 --> 00:19:53.461 rather than letting the theological information 00:19:53.461 --> 00:19:56.176 that you have form you and change you. 00:19:58.441 --> 00:20:05.817 The purpose of the information is the formation. So not just the information in and of itself. 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:06.817 Yeah, right. 00:20:07.701 --> 00:20:16.611 What's that? boy, am I gonna be able to quote it well? The passage that talks about pride that puffs up... 00:20:16.809 --> 00:20:20.141 Knowledge puffs up. Knowledge puffs up. But love builds up. Love builds up. 00:20:20.761 --> 00:20:26.781 Yeah. Right? So I don't know, I'm a big proponent when I'm talking with people, particularly people who've 00:20:26.781 --> 00:20:35.341 been following Jesus for a while, and if they're feeling kind of stuck in their like, where do I go 00:20:35.341 --> 00:20:47.741 next in my spiritual growth. I'm really a fan of advocating for people to lean into more... 00:20:49.649 --> 00:20:56.941 Oh, what's the word? Kind of less structured contemplative, that's what I'm just looking for, 00:20:56.941 --> 00:21:01.021 more contemplative ways of engaging with spiritual disciplines. 00:21:01.379 --> 00:21:11.849 Talk about what that... what you mean by that, because contemplative ways and meditation... Right. Like... Yeah. 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:16.665 ...seems a little new agey. Right. A little like... Seems a little Eastern, doesn't it? 00:21:17.259 --> 00:21:21.454 Yes. Oh, oh no. Seems like, why would we want to do... like, we're Western, Luke. 00:21:21.581 --> 00:21:22.940 We have the scientific method. 00:21:23.341 --> 00:21:26.661 We can just study the book. You want me to throw this mic at you, don't you? 00:21:26.661 --> 00:21:33.221 Study the book and get the... We're just eggheads, egghead spirituality. Why would we wanna feel 00:21:33.221 --> 00:21:40.566 anything? I have a... Maybe a... Cuz I grew up hearing a lot of that. 00:21:42.124 --> 00:21:50.501 Everyone in the Western world did. Right. It's particularly in Christian... Beware of the New Age, beware of Eastern 00:21:50.501 --> 00:21:57.381 spirituality sneaking its way into the Western Church. I have really hard news for some of us. 00:21:59.390 --> 00:22:02.181 Christianity is an Eastern religion. Eastern religion. 00:22:03.927 --> 00:22:16.981 Jesus was tanner than us, spoke Arabic, and his culture was an Eastern religion. 00:22:17.106 --> 00:22:19.901 Yeah, it wasn't a year. It wasn't European. It wasn't primarily white, 00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:27.550 You know, it was African before it was white. It was definitely African first. 00:22:28.350 --> 00:22:34.270 Was it Athanasius that said that the seed of the church was in the bosom of Africa or 00:22:34.270 --> 00:22:42.190 something like that? Yeah, something like that. It was not originally the white man's religion. 00:22:43.470 --> 00:22:48.350 And it's still not. And it's still not. And it's still not. That's a misconception. It's a misrepresentation. 00:22:48.614 --> 00:22:55.470 And that's not to say that Western civilization hasn't contributed massively to Christianity, 00:22:55.470 --> 00:23:04.030 I'm not disregarding any of that, but it's to say that when Psalm 1 talks about, 00:23:04.233 --> 00:23:13.950 blessed is the one who meditates on the word of the Lord's commands and how he's rooted down 00:23:13.950 --> 00:23:18.190 Like a tree by streams of water and bears fruit and good season. 00:23:19.132 --> 00:23:29.390 That's Eastern right meditative reflective Contemplative it's it's not a did I understand the concept that the sentence said? 00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:34.910 It's and can I apply it and can I apply it to my life? It's is it? 00:23:35.590 --> 00:23:38.470 Going to stay with me. Is it going to like? 00:23:38.802 --> 00:23:46.270 Like, circle around with it, sink back down into the way that I think, so that I begin 00:23:46.270 --> 00:23:55.070 to think, act, behave, and see the world automatically through those lenses without even thinking about it. 00:23:55.070 --> 00:24:01.370 That's a more contemplative sense. I think about conferences. 00:24:01.370 --> 00:24:06.079 We go to conferences and we listen to talks and we're like, did you get the idea? 00:24:06.376 --> 00:24:06.880 Great. 00:24:07.438 --> 00:24:13.270 And all right, next talk. More contemplative way would say, what if we sat with one idea, 00:24:13.910 --> 00:24:18.550 for a couple of days and we really let that one idea sink down in deep? 00:24:18.550 --> 00:24:22.481 Sink in, yeah, just sink down into all the cracks and crevices of who we are. 00:24:22.571 --> 00:24:28.550 Yeah. A great way of reading scripture that benefited me when I was making a shift was. 00:24:30.790 --> 00:24:35.030 One psalm a week. A week. 00:24:35.120 --> 00:24:38.390 A week. I was gonna say... For a second, I thought you... I was thinking day. 00:24:38.390 --> 00:24:46.710 No, a week. Like I would read that Psalm, reflect on it, pray through it, next day do the same 00:24:46.710 --> 00:24:52.630 thing. And what I found is, is that the more that I did that, I'd get to day four and I would still 00:24:52.630 --> 00:25:00.470 notice something. I was like, oh, I didn't hear that the first time. I didn't see that. I didn't 00:25:00.470 --> 00:25:07.670 see how that was supposed to apply to me the first day I read it. If I had just read it once 00:25:07.670 --> 00:25:09.914 and prayed through it and moved on. 00:25:11.093 --> 00:25:16.463 Would I have ever gotten to the fruit that I did when I was four days in, and I was beginning to, 00:25:17.263 --> 00:25:22.223 see it differently. My mood, my circumstances were different from the first day I read the 00:25:22.223 --> 00:25:30.063 psalm to the second, to the third, to the fourth day. And that began to allow the spirit to move 00:25:30.063 --> 00:25:35.423 in a different way, because I was willing to sit and wait on the Lord in a way that's different. 00:25:35.687 --> 00:25:43.423 I think like things like that can be a, I think a significant shift in the way that we began to kind of grow. 00:25:44.068 --> 00:25:44.423 Yeah. 00:25:45.131 --> 00:25:51.351 I really do wonder what it is about us as a Western Christian culture. 00:25:52.639 --> 00:26:03.423 Like where, where essentially was the, I know where the historical breaking point between Western, between the Western and Eastern churches. 00:26:03.423 --> 00:26:07.623 Eastern churches, but like, where would be like the, 00:26:10.863 --> 00:26:22.343 formative breaking point or splitting off point where the Eastern church retained much of the contemplative and the 00:26:22.343 --> 00:26:34.625 Western church did not. And vice versa to where the Eastern Yeah, vice versa to where the Eastern church retained the contemplative to the, 00:26:35.283 --> 00:26:37.533 detriment maybe of the. 00:26:41.683 --> 00:26:44.834 I don't know. I don't know enough about the Eastern Church to be that, like... 00:26:47.300 --> 00:26:54.154 But let's just say, let's let's maybe make a vast generalization and say that the Eastern Church, 00:26:54.826 --> 00:27:06.154 chose the contemplative over like a more academically rigorous approach to theology. 00:27:06.154 --> 00:27:06.430 Right. Yeah. 00:27:07.674 --> 00:27:13.754 Okay. Yeah. Which is a really vast generalization because there are still Eastern. Academics. 00:27:13.754 --> 00:27:18.634 Yeah. There are Orthodox scholars. Yep, they exist. 00:27:18.634 --> 00:27:25.314 And I'm just wondering, like, how are even people who are listening right now are processing 00:27:25.314 --> 00:27:32.194 this conversation because… Because not everybody knows about Ethernal Orthodox or like the Coptic Church. 00:27:32.249 --> 00:27:35.274 Well, yeah, because like there's Orthodox churches around here. 00:27:35.274 --> 00:27:40.274 There's not many in Chalk County, but there are Orthodox churches. 00:27:40.274 --> 00:27:43.925 And so when you would look at them and be like, wow, they need Jesus. 00:27:44.591 --> 00:27:48.154 They got incense. Yeah, those, those Orthodox people, they need Jesus. Like, well, they had 00:27:48.154 --> 00:27:58.247 Jesus before we did. They had Jesus before we did. And so it's just a really interesting, 00:27:58.517 --> 00:28:01.155 it's just a really interesting dynamic. They're not Protestants. 00:28:01.227 --> 00:28:07.514 No, they're not even Catholic. They're not Catholics. They're Orthodox. We talk, we talk in terms of just Protestantism 00:28:07.514 --> 00:28:12.954 and Catholicism. We forget, or we just choose not to talk about the fact that there's Orthodox, 00:28:12.954 --> 00:28:17.354 there's Protestants, and there's Catholics. Yeah. And that they're different. And that 00:28:17.354 --> 00:28:21.034 they're different. Yeah, because the Catholics and the Orthodox do not get along. Right. And 00:28:21.034 --> 00:28:24.111 and that their differences span. 00:28:25.524 --> 00:28:35.166 Their differences spanned far before the Protestant versus Catholic. Yes Differences all the way back into the third and fourth century iconoclasm, right? 00:28:35.474 --> 00:28:41.414 So destroying of the icons and imagery and churches or the you know, the the the questions about the nature of, 00:28:42.614 --> 00:28:47.574 The Holy Spirit in relationship to the Trinity in the creeds. Yep, you know and. 00:28:49.965 --> 00:29:01.094 So like we're talking about like like, brick and mortar type of stuff to church history that doesn't... that really is completely 00:29:01.094 --> 00:29:11.994 foreign to, I would say, 95% of... probably 98, 99% of Protestant Christians who attend churches today. 00:29:12.975 --> 00:29:15.712 Yeah. Like... No idea what the Orthodox Church is. No idea. 00:29:16.189 --> 00:29:27.874 And also, we deal with a significant population of people who are ex-Catholic in one way, 00:29:28.036 --> 00:29:37.686 and that experience can even color a way of seeing Catholicism and seeing Orthodoxy, and 00:29:38.034 --> 00:29:39.354 like, well, I left that. 00:29:39.354 --> 00:29:44.465 Why would I ever go to see what's valuable there, you know what I mean? 00:29:44.954 --> 00:29:51.854 So I don't know, back to the original question, I guess, was like you said, when did that split happen? 00:29:52.441 --> 00:29:58.014 Like I don't think either of us are historical scholars enough to have a good answer to that 00:29:58.014 --> 00:30:08.258 question other than I would say that like there's definitely something in the shift 00:30:08.303 --> 00:30:14.974 from the shift in scholasticism from classical to, like, 00:30:15.094 --> 00:30:18.412 scientifical or to like enlightenment. 00:30:19.547 --> 00:30:26.837 Like that shift is pretty big. When we think about how... If you've ever learned about how 00:30:26.837 --> 00:30:33.077 the Greeks taught, right? They taught what's called the Socratic method, right? Student comes 00:30:33.077 --> 00:30:37.877 to the teacher with a question, the teacher is not supposed to give the answer, the teacher is 00:30:37.877 --> 00:30:41.377 supposed to give another question. And you're supposed to like, you know, like, teacher, 00:30:41.717 --> 00:30:46.877 what's the meaning of life? And they're like, what do you think? I'm not very good at the What is life? 00:30:46.877 --> 00:30:51.478 What is life? You know, what is meaning, you know? 00:30:51.717 --> 00:30:58.677 And so teaching through this kind of contemplative thinking where it's more about learning to 00:30:58.677 --> 00:31:03.797 ask good questions, sitting with questions and trying to wrestle them through, dealing 00:31:03.991 --> 00:31:08.762 with virtues and values and applying them, like that's all very classical Greek. 00:31:09.437 --> 00:31:14.237 And then at some point there is this massive shift to like, all right, here's the study 00:31:14.237 --> 00:31:20.744 Guide for the test be here in time like it'll be multiple choice with short answer, you know, like that's so different than. 00:31:22.581 --> 00:31:28.585 Like Give me like your reflections the discovery process a discovery process. All right, right, 00:31:29.837 --> 00:31:32.906 Like here's the textbook. The test will be to the textbook like, 00:31:33.933 --> 00:31:45.597 That's so how like we're educated in our like even in liberal arts colleges. That's the way for some reason liberal arts classes are taught. Like, 00:31:45.780 --> 00:31:51.557 oh give me a like, you know, here's the textbook, you know, multiple choice 00:31:51.557 --> 00:31:55.877 answers out of the textbook. Like that's not, that's a totally different way of 00:31:55.877 --> 00:32:00.557 thinking. That's very much like there is a right answer versus like let's reflect 00:32:00.557 --> 00:32:06.077 upon it and make an argumentation and maybe, you know, and bounce things off. I 00:32:06.077 --> 00:32:11.625 I think that like plays a significant role in how we see the world, 00:32:12.037 --> 00:32:13.317 and even how we approach the Bible. 00:32:13.317 --> 00:32:19.853 Cause we talked about in our like very first episodes, people treating the Bible like a textbook. 00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:22.597 Right. This has got the answers. 00:32:24.435 --> 00:32:29.517 Yeah. Yeah. Which it does. Which it does. But not in the same way that your, you know, 00:32:29.517 --> 00:32:34.086 earth science and ninth grade book has the answers. Right. You know? Right. Yeah. 00:32:35.499 --> 00:32:39.615 Okay, I don't have any idea what we just talked about but it felt good. 00:32:41.755 --> 00:32:55.355 Well, I mean There there is like a Things form us. Maybe that's like a underlying principle that we can talk about. I think leads to your place of like things, 00:32:56.951 --> 00:33:04.195 Have an impact on us Right what I spend my what I spend my time doing and how I spend my time doing it, 00:33:04.828 --> 00:33:05.783 Like has an impact on it, 00:33:06.467 --> 00:33:12.075 you you've done a lot with like physical training and stuff like this and so like I would wager to say like, 00:33:13.291 --> 00:33:20.075 Like what would you say about practice like how you practice? Oh, yeah, how you like how you practice is how you perform? 00:33:21.167 --> 00:33:22.761 How you do it in? 00:33:23.877 --> 00:33:34.595 What we say is there's the phrase, practice makes perfect. And I will say that I don't believe that. 00:33:34.595 --> 00:33:36.147 I think practice makes permanent. 00:33:38.355 --> 00:33:43.835 So if you practice something wrong, it's not perfect. You're gonna do it wrong every time 00:33:43.835 --> 00:33:45.789 because practice makes permanent. 00:33:45.915 --> 00:33:47.112 Perfect practice makes perfect. 00:33:47.275 --> 00:33:53.075 So the things that we do on a regular basis are the things that are permanent within us. 00:33:53.075 --> 00:33:57.852 You know, so on both a negative and a positive scale, right? 00:34:00.295 --> 00:34:07.043 So if we're continually soaking our mind with the word of God, you know, 00:34:07.135 --> 00:34:12.135 it is that continual, that continual meditative, 00:34:13.155 --> 00:34:18.335 over and over and over again, not letting go of it, feasting on it, letting it, you know, 00:34:18.335 --> 00:34:23.661 drinking of the river of life that will form within us, you know? 00:34:23.735 --> 00:34:33.455 Um, so yeah, I think that, uh, and I think too, like there are also very. 00:34:35.337 --> 00:34:38.147 Active forms of formation. Mm-hmm. 00:34:40.324 --> 00:34:50.207 Like it's not It's not just completely like It's not just a mind exercise. No. Yeah, so I'm like thinking of fasting even 00:34:50.371 --> 00:34:56.147 I would I would classify fasting as a formative or a formation a point of formation where, 00:34:57.123 --> 00:35:07.047 you know, we're we're Involving our whole cells our whole bodies our minds our emotions, you know our spirits, 00:35:07.567 --> 00:35:09.707 Definitely our emotions right fasting is not, 00:35:11.184 --> 00:35:18.707 Like if you're gonna fast for a day like There again is a perfect example your body, 00:35:19.952 --> 00:35:30.087 has practiced Eating eating every four to six hours. Yep And so when it doesn't eat every four to six hours, it gets angry with you 00:35:30.087 --> 00:35:34.788 But in reality, what does fasting tell us? 00:35:34.947 --> 00:35:41.947 Fasting teaches us that you do not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. 00:35:47.076 --> 00:35:56.227 We submit our physical bodies to surrender of the Lord in the act of fasting, that our flesh would not, 00:35:57.240 --> 00:36:01.227 would not, our flesh would not demand things over our spirit. 00:36:01.227 --> 00:36:09.807 And demand things over our spirit, and that we can begin to master. 00:36:11.355 --> 00:36:19.664 We can begin to master the desire of the flesh so that we can awaken the perception of the spirit 00:36:19.926 --> 00:36:20.808 to the spirit of God. 00:36:22.326 --> 00:36:25.516 So that we can begin to hear God more clearly. 00:36:27.606 --> 00:36:33.686 And so fasting is an aspect of formation. It's not information. 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:42.526 It's formation. It's an active thing that we do that forms us into the person that, you know, 00:36:42.526 --> 00:36:43.926 the Lord desires us to be. 00:36:47.726 --> 00:36:55.386 So. So, like, it's, when you start thinking through a formation lens, you start seeing, 00:36:56.546 --> 00:37:01.206 like, you can start to apply it to all of life in some degree. 00:37:01.206 --> 00:37:06.726 Like, thinking through, like, what's, what's, what am I doing that's forming me 00:37:06.726 --> 00:37:08.241 in an opposite direction. 00:37:08.626 --> 00:37:12.877 Of the way I want to become. 100%, yep. And then a significant, 00:37:13.106 --> 00:37:17.621 like I think a significant portion of what forms us is the people who are around us. 00:37:18.826 --> 00:37:24.985 Yes. You know, like what was that quote that you, I don't know where you got it from. 00:37:25.306 --> 00:37:31.493 Were there like some, or the average of like some of those? You were the average of your five closest acquaintances. 00:37:32.700 --> 00:37:36.742 Yeah. So statistically speaking, you are right, you're the average of them. 00:37:38.606 --> 00:37:43.097 Which means you might be the strongest, or like, there's gonna be, 00:37:43.326 --> 00:37:45.926 if you talk about like physical strength, there's gonna be people that are stronger than you, 00:37:45.926 --> 00:37:48.686 there are gonna be two people in a group of five that are stronger than you, 00:37:48.686 --> 00:37:50.380 two people in a group of five that are weaker than you. 00:37:50.526 --> 00:37:51.806 You're the average, right? 00:37:52.766 --> 00:37:57.806 Same goes for your character. Same goes for if you wanna make your, 00:37:57.806 --> 00:38:00.256 the closeness of your walk with Jesus on a scale. 00:38:01.813 --> 00:38:05.023 Right? Or your whole, the whole, put your holiness on a scale, or you're going to be 00:38:05.023 --> 00:38:10.623 the average of the five closest people that you spend your time with. Right. So, um. 00:38:12.328 --> 00:38:16.303 So yeah, I think that that phrase, you're the average of the five closest people. 00:38:17.882 --> 00:38:26.463 Like, okay, well then I want to be around the most significantly holy people that I could possibly 00:38:26.463 --> 00:38:32.783 find. I want to be around people who are gonna shift me up the bell curve. Well, that's exactly 00:38:32.783 --> 00:38:46.143 it, right? If I pursue proximity to four other people whose lives are producing fruit and keeping 00:38:46.143 --> 00:38:54.703 with repentance and holiness, and I say, okay, I'm here now. Like, teach me, disciple me, 00:38:54.944 --> 00:39:01.343 me, pray for me, encourage me, exhort me, admonish me, all those things, then just by 00:39:01.343 --> 00:39:09.213 virtue of my proximity with them, they will, like I will be pulled up to that level eventually, right? 00:39:09.903 --> 00:39:14.632 There's like the recovery saying of like, if you want what we have, do what we did. 00:39:15.943 --> 00:39:19.943 Not what we're doing. Not what we're doing. Is that the other? No, it's not. 00:39:20.160 --> 00:39:23.943 I just added it to it. I don't know. Is it the end of it? Is it the other end of it? 00:39:23.943 --> 00:39:26.101 I don't know what that is, but do what we did. 00:39:26.750 --> 00:39:30.476 Yeah. Right, because we see people and we want like, okay, I want that. 00:39:31.443 --> 00:39:35.995 I want the product of all that they did. Yes, right. 00:39:37.563 --> 00:39:42.763 It's like trying to show up and like, be like win a martial arts tournament 00:39:42.763 --> 00:39:44.363 without having shown up to practice. 00:39:44.363 --> 00:39:48.203 100%, well, and if you keep it in the language of the attic, right? 00:39:48.203 --> 00:39:55.863 I want the new found freedom of a person's life at the one year sober mark. 00:39:58.623 --> 00:40:01.804 Well, then you have to do what they did. Yeah, you have to go a year. 00:40:01.923 --> 00:40:07.103 If you're one day sober and you want the fruit of what their life is now producing 00:40:07.103 --> 00:40:10.158 because of the 365 days sober, then you gotta do 364. 00:40:11.863 --> 00:40:18.495 You gotta do the days. Right. And there's no other way around it, right? 00:40:22.645 --> 00:40:30.975 I guess all of that is to say that my belief, my contention is that one of the most overlooked 00:40:30.975 --> 00:40:41.935 aspects of spiritual growth is community, is the people that we are around. And I think the refusal 00:40:41.935 --> 00:40:49.084 to recognize that we need other people is the height of pride. 00:40:49.455 --> 00:40:49.912 Yes. Yeah. 00:40:51.455 --> 00:40:54.639 It's the absolute height, well, it's not the height of pride. 00:40:54.684 --> 00:40:56.655 Well, I mean, the height of pride. To say that we don't need God. 00:40:56.655 --> 00:40:58.366 Yeah, that's... Right. 00:40:58.655 --> 00:41:01.335 But... There's no such thing as the lone ranger Christian. 00:41:01.787 --> 00:41:08.775 No. Anytime, people have heard this all the time, but anytime the Christians are mentioned in 00:41:08.775 --> 00:41:14.295 Scripture in the New Testament, it's a plural word, both in the English and in the Greek, right? 00:41:14.471 --> 00:41:20.535 We're talking about saints, not a single saint. We're talking about the church as a body, which 00:41:20.619 --> 00:41:25.575 Paul says has many parts, and they all come together to form and function one body whose 00:41:25.575 --> 00:41:33.095 head is Christ. One part cannot say to the other, I don't need you, right? There are no ignoble 00:41:33.095 --> 00:41:38.295 parts, you know, all parts function in the same, with the 00:41:38.295 --> 00:41:48.375 same level of importance as they relate to the body. And, and in particular, I mentioned this last week, in particular, not 00:41:48.375 --> 00:41:53.235 just not just, I don't think that it's just being around 00:41:53.370 --> 00:42:10.095 people that helps you to grow spiritually. Right. But being around people who share the same value for community as you do, you know, and we call 00:42:10.095 --> 00:42:11.932 that community gospel community. 00:42:12.589 --> 00:42:21.817 Yep. Right. Um, and so, so there are like, I think some, I think that there are some, um, that. 00:42:23.195 --> 00:42:26.570 There are some presuppositions or there are some, 00:42:26.741 --> 00:42:34.255 let's just say givens that should exist within community that is gospel-centric. 00:42:37.115 --> 00:42:43.695 The first is that, and most significant, is that the most central component to gospel community 00:42:43.695 --> 00:42:44.952 is the component of love. 00:42:46.564 --> 00:42:54.765 So if we look at that from a practical standpoint, would be like where I tell you that, Luke, 00:42:55.017 --> 00:42:59.835 that Luke, you don't ever have to wonder 00:43:00.121 --> 00:43:01.706 if I love you or not. 00:43:05.019 --> 00:43:13.869 You can not just assume, but you can know that my permanent posture towards you is one of love. 00:43:14.849 --> 00:43:15.389 It's love. 00:43:18.309 --> 00:43:22.549 And so you never have to wonder like, oh, does he like me or not? 00:43:22.549 --> 00:43:24.383 Or am I accepted here, right? 00:43:24.437 --> 00:43:30.792 What we're doing here is we're saying, okay, let's strip away the natural insecurities 00:43:31.089 --> 00:43:34.330 that filter their way into relationships between people. 00:43:35.113 --> 00:43:44.949 And let's say, no, the basis of our relationship is not one of you being the type of person 00:43:44.949 --> 00:43:48.500 I like to be around, the basis of our relationship 00:43:48.589 --> 00:43:53.064 is the love of God in me and the love of God in you 00:43:53.361 --> 00:43:55.629 and our mutual love for one another. 00:43:55.629 --> 00:44:00.257 Therefore, right, you are safe, you are secure, right? 00:44:00.833 --> 00:44:12.229 You are secure. And so because love is the foundation, love opens the door for all of 00:44:12.229 --> 00:44:19.829 the other beautiful things that the gospel allows us to practice in relationships. Things like 00:44:19.829 --> 00:44:30.349 like, um, forgiveness, like forgiveness is given and forgiveness is received. 00:44:30.738 --> 00:44:36.869 And there's the, you know, you never, you never, you always hope that you never hurt 00:44:36.869 --> 00:44:44.069 someone or that you sin against them. We don't want to do that, but, but we do. 00:44:44.962 --> 00:44:52.789 And in the world, if you hurt someone, if you sin against them, and you say, I'm sorry, 00:44:52.789 --> 00:44:55.044 will you forgive me, right? 00:44:56.509 --> 00:44:59.212 You don't always know the response you're going to get back. 00:45:00.709 --> 00:45:08.989 Like no, screw you, right? Or yeah, I forgive you, but then like, I'm bringing up in two weeks, I'm going to bring 00:45:08.989 --> 00:45:12.269 it up in three weeks, and I'm going to remind you of it, I'm going to hold it over your 00:45:12.269 --> 00:45:16.029 head and you're gonna owe me and all that, right? Not forgiveness. 00:45:16.029 --> 00:45:17.549 No. That's not forgiveness. 00:45:19.949 --> 00:45:27.869 But in gospel community, forgiveness is extended, received, done and over with. 00:45:29.163 --> 00:45:35.469 Right? Because if the model of our forgiveness of one another is the model of God's forgiveness 00:45:35.469 --> 00:45:41.929 of us in Jesus Christ, we know that He has taken our sins and placed them as far as the 00:45:41.929 --> 00:45:45.754 The East is from the West, which is to say, they're gone. 00:45:46.798 --> 00:45:52.968 Keep no record. Keep no record of wrongs, right? So we have love as the foundation and then it 00:45:52.968 --> 00:45:59.848 opens it up to all kinds of beautiful things that the gospel allows us to do, which is forgive, 00:45:59.848 --> 00:46:09.288 right? Which is another beautiful thing is it gives us the permission, gospel community 00:46:09.288 --> 00:46:13.994 gives us the permission to speak the truth of God's word, 00:46:14.568 --> 00:46:21.016 into someone's life when we see a discontinuity between the life that they're living 00:46:21.088 --> 00:46:22.438 and the truth of God's word, 00:46:22.888 --> 00:46:29.613 without it being from the place of judgment, but it being from the place of I love you, 00:46:30.208 --> 00:46:35.546 and I want the truth of God to reign in your life and produce fruit that's keeping with repentance. 00:46:35.648 --> 00:46:38.363 It's not a, I got you, it's a, hey, I love you. 00:46:38.568 --> 00:46:39.777 Exactly. 00:46:40.686 --> 00:46:44.848 Right. And I know that you want this for yourself. Exactly, right. 00:46:44.848 --> 00:46:46.772 You're not gonna look at me and be like, how dare you? 00:46:47.375 --> 00:46:53.037 How dare you do that? You're like, you have no right because gospel community assumes the right 00:46:53.168 --> 00:46:54.559 of others to speak into you. 00:46:55.747 --> 00:47:01.211 Because, and the reason it assumes that is because of the foundation of love, 00:47:01.571 --> 00:47:04.569 which assumes their best interest for us. 00:47:05.408 --> 00:47:14.488 So, there's forgiveness, there's whatever you want to call that, accountability or exhortation or admonition or whatever. 00:47:14.787 --> 00:47:24.176 Then, I think that like... 00:47:27.354 --> 00:47:33.408 I think that there's like a, maybe it's not talked about so much so in like community, 00:47:33.408 --> 00:47:39.408 but like there's this other like beautiful thing about gospel community where it's like, 00:47:40.288 --> 00:47:50.448 rejoicing with those who rejoice, mourning with those who mourn, right? Bearing one another's 00:47:50.448 --> 00:48:11.150 burdens, where you share, you now share in a real way, the real experiences of life. 00:48:12.328 --> 00:48:18.688 So when someone is rejoicing, they've had a baby, they're getting married, they got 00:48:18.688 --> 00:48:21.674 in your job, something great is happening in their life. 00:48:25.088 --> 00:48:32.008 You are legitimately able to rejoice with them. And when they mourn, when there's a significant loss, 00:48:32.008 --> 00:48:33.568 when they've got a diagnosis, 00:48:36.104 --> 00:48:47.996 you're there to mourn with them. When they have a burden, you are there to shoulder the burden 00:48:48.293 --> 00:48:56.476 alongside of them, you know, they don't carry the thing alone, you are yoked together by, 00:48:57.728 --> 00:48:59.186 faith in Christ. 00:48:59.768 --> 00:49:05.288 And so what was maybe a single yoke that they were carrying now becomes a double yoke and 00:49:05.288 --> 00:49:08.530 you carry it together. 00:49:08.848 --> 00:49:23.448 And so you no longer have to go through the experiences of life alone. 00:49:24.995 --> 00:49:25.563 And then, 00:49:27.669 --> 00:49:35.679 If you step back from all of that and you take like the 20,000-foot view on it, you'll look at, 00:49:36.410 --> 00:49:42.159 that gospel community and you'll say, wow, all of those people look so different. 00:49:44.278 --> 00:49:51.696 They're white, they're black, they're Asian, they're Indian, they're European, they're 00:49:51.966 --> 00:49:57.359 Brazilian, they're Democrat, Democrat, Republican, they're, you know, they're male, 00:49:57.359 --> 00:50:02.239 they're female, they're, you know, they're a thousand different categories that the world. 00:50:03.759 --> 00:50:12.399 They root for the Steelers, not the Bill. Oh, Mike. Well, let's not go too far here. A thousand different categories that the world 00:50:12.399 --> 00:50:19.039 breaks us up into. And you'll say, okay, well, what is the thing? And what is then the common 00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:24.319 thing. Right. Well, the common thing is our faith in Jesus Christ. It's Christ. It's Christ. It's 00:50:24.319 --> 00:50:30.479 Jesus, right? It's the fact that we're now a new family in Christ. Yes, we are a community that is 00:50:30.479 --> 00:50:38.760 linked together, that is bonded, welded together by the gospel. Yep. The good news of Jesus Christ. 00:50:38.913 --> 00:50:47.219 Right. And so, um, you know, I think that if you go through life. 00:50:49.292 --> 00:51:05.379 Really hoping to grow spiritually, but never, I think it's a submission to gospel community, submitting yourself to gospel community. 00:51:05.379 --> 00:51:05.722 Yeah. 00:51:06.460 --> 00:51:11.179 Because you can show up the gospel community, but you can not be there, not submit yourself 00:51:11.179 --> 00:51:12.761 to gospel, not be there. 00:51:12.959 --> 00:51:20.071 Yeah. Yeah. Gospel community, I think, you know, not always, you know, it's, there are reasons that people 00:51:20.139 --> 00:51:21.419 good reasons to leave churches. 00:51:21.419 --> 00:51:28.038 We talked about that a few weeks ago, but like, if you find yourself like jumping around, 00:51:28.731 --> 00:51:34.565 church to church to church to church to church, you know, five churches in 10 years. 00:51:35.501 --> 00:51:41.759 The problem ain't the church. It's not, you know. 00:51:43.558 --> 00:51:48.284 And so when you refuse to submit yourself to gospel community. 00:51:51.019 --> 00:51:58.214 I don't think you should be super shocked or surprised when you feel a little stuck in spiritual mud. 00:51:59.492 --> 00:52:08.144 Yeah. Because you're missing one of the key components ingredients to growing. 00:52:09.953 --> 00:52:13.243 Growing in your faith, growing in spirituality. 00:52:15.643 --> 00:52:22.003 So it's always like a little cheeky to hear people like, well, I need my Bible, a journal, 00:52:22.003 --> 00:52:26.163 I'll just go into the woods and it'll just be me and Jesus and we'll just live our lives out like that. 00:52:27.283 --> 00:52:33.017 I mean, like, I understand the sentiment and I get it. Sometimes I feel that way. 00:52:34.363 --> 00:52:38.883 I feel that way too, but like. Yeah, but the heart is deceitfully wicked. 00:52:38.883 --> 00:52:44.323 You're gonna... You're missing it, man. You're gonna miss gospel community, you're gonna miss 00:52:44.323 --> 00:52:50.083 being on a mission. Who are you gonna be on a mission to? The trees? You know what I'm saying? 00:52:50.083 --> 00:52:53.043 Like, you gotta be... As important, trees are. Right. 00:52:53.043 --> 00:53:00.403 Yeah. You know, yeah. But I think that thing that you talked about, like, not going through life alone, 00:53:01.536 --> 00:53:05.380 the gift of presence is so huge. 00:53:05.763 --> 00:53:07.405 Yeah, yeah, 00:53:09.584 --> 00:53:19.123 Don't don't deprive yourself of of that. Yep. Yep Yeah, you can't do it or you should can but you shouldn't, 00:53:20.251 --> 00:53:22.529 It's horror. It's horribly painful. Yeah, 00:53:24.123 --> 00:53:25.248 and I would also say, 00:53:26.963 --> 00:53:33.203 Don't allow the world to deceive you into thinking that you can find the same thing outside of 00:53:33.203 --> 00:53:38.203 of the community of those who are following Jesus. 00:53:43.496 --> 00:53:48.462 You might find bits and pieces of it. Yeah, but it will not last. Yeah, it will not, 00:53:49.950 --> 00:53:56.002 I think I did but maybe I did talk about this last week about how there's just like this prevalence of, 00:53:56.747 --> 00:54:01.662 People calling every every place that they spend their time. Well, this is my work family 00:54:01.662 --> 00:54:11.502 my work family my football family my soccer family my online family, like my gaming family, my this family, my my neighborhood family, like, 00:54:13.262 --> 00:54:16.210 Those are affinity groups, not families, right? 00:54:18.397 --> 00:54:25.743 Like they're there. It's amazing how Quickly, like I don't want to like I don't want to say that like, you know, 00:54:27.222 --> 00:54:32.342 Friends that you make at work are like that. You can't make good friends at work, 00:54:32.828 --> 00:54:57.342 But I would say that it is so easy, and I would say the majority of friends, you probably make it work if you were to stop working there. How would that relationship change? Right? Would you maintain friendship with that person the way that you are now? Or is it a like, hey, we're both people that seem to be at least be able to tolerate being in the same room while we're doing this job. 00:54:57.342 --> 00:55:03.662 This job, let's at least give ourselves some company while we're doing this job, but outside of that, 00:55:04.885 --> 00:55:07.222 Is it actually family? Mm-hmm? 00:55:08.387 --> 00:55:10.331 That's rare. Yes. Yep. 00:55:12.591 --> 00:55:19.142 It's not like those things are inherently bad. No, it's not football family soccer family work family gaming family 00:55:19.142 --> 00:55:23.542 Whatever you should have friends at work. You should make nice with your co-workers 00:55:23.542 --> 00:55:30.262 Yeah, if you're not doing that create community in other places just understand that like it it is limited by, 00:55:31.424 --> 00:55:32.576 the pervasiveness of sin, 00:55:34.250 --> 00:55:41.602 Not that gospel community is not limited by the pervasiveness of sin But what I'm saying is that when you find it and when you can build it, this is another thing 00:55:41.602 --> 00:55:43.415 You don't just find gospel community, 00:55:45.530 --> 00:55:49.689 It can't just be assumed It must be built. Yeah, 00:55:50.949 --> 00:55:56.902 You must be an active participate, participate in building the dynamics of gospel community. 00:55:56.902 --> 00:56:02.182 So you can jump right in a group of people and have and call it gospel community. 00:56:02.182 --> 00:56:07.822 But if you're not willing to forgive the person across the table, which is hard, spiritually 00:56:07.822 --> 00:56:13.222 mature work to do, then then you're not exhibiting gospel community. 00:56:13.222 --> 00:56:16.302 So you're not a part of it. And then you're going to say, well, gospel community is B.S. 00:56:16.302 --> 00:56:20.542 It doesn't exist. Of course it doesn't exist, because you're not pursuing it and building it. 00:56:20.542 --> 00:56:21.998 It exists within you. Right. 00:56:23.022 --> 00:56:29.398 It takes Christ in you. The hope of glory, the righteousness of God, you know? 00:56:31.462 --> 00:56:36.627 So, community people, that's where it's at. Where's that, man? 00:56:37.572 --> 00:56:44.382 Alright, well, hopefully that gave answers more than it gave questions. Yes, maybe we'll get a slew of questions people asking us 00:56:44.382 --> 00:56:49.329 We're gonna become Orthodox or something. You know, I think we should do I think we should go to an Orthodox Church. 00:56:50.508 --> 00:56:56.582 Service, you know, let's do it. We can have an Orthodox on the podcast. Do we know an Orthodox? 00:56:57.222 --> 00:57:02.058 Well, I mean, yeah Right, yes, 00:57:02.622 --> 00:57:09.622 Um, and not to say that, like, is the expert in the field or anything like that, but like, 00:57:09.622 --> 00:57:14.142 that's what I'm saying is like, you know, he's not, he's not a priest. He just decided 00:57:14.142 --> 00:57:18.822 to leave Moody and start going to work in an Orthodox church, right? It's not like he's 00:57:18.822 --> 00:57:24.582 really deep into it. Um, but I think it would be a really interesting experience. I would, 00:57:24.582 --> 00:57:29.461 I would, I would really love that. That would be a fantastic conversation. So there are 00:57:29.742 --> 00:57:34.232 Are there other people that I really want to be able to interview on the podcast? 00:57:35.082 --> 00:57:39.229 Maybe we should like, maybe we should aim for that, think about how we can like work 00:57:39.283 --> 00:57:42.902 in episodes where we're kind of inviting people onto the podcast and stuff. 00:57:43.181 --> 00:57:46.062 Yeah, I'm going to shoot my shot and invite John Tyson. All right. 00:57:46.062 --> 00:57:47.382 I want to interview John Tyson so bad. 00:57:47.430 --> 00:57:51.262 Let's do it. If you're in New York City, you know John Tyson, pastor of Church of the City in New 00:57:51.262 --> 00:57:56.324 York, or if John Tyson, you listen, if you're a subscriber and a fan of the Uncut podcast, 00:57:57.022 --> 00:58:01.653 We will drive to New York, I'll drive to New York City. 00:58:02.022 --> 00:58:04.003 We'll set up our podcast studio there. 00:58:04.422 --> 00:58:09.182 I know you have your own podcast, I get it, it's fantastic, I love it, but there are so many things, 00:58:09.182 --> 00:58:10.822 so many questions I wanna ask you. 00:58:11.822 --> 00:58:17.302 So, yeah, if you know John Tyson, tell him. Pastor Cameron wants to interview him for his podcast. 00:58:17.302 --> 00:58:19.451 So it would be a lot of fun. 00:58:20.261 --> 00:58:24.622 Okay, thank you, as always, for listening to the Uncut Podcast. 00:58:24.622 --> 00:58:28.966 Send your text or questions, 716-201-0507. 00:58:29.650 --> 00:58:32.582 Comment, like, subscribe, share. Appreciate you. 00:58:33.040 --> 00:58:48.456 Music.