The AI Arena - Skate to The Puck: A Lewis Brisbois Podcast | Fair Use in AI Training: What is Considered "Transformative?"

A fascinating legal case which captured the attention of the AI world in 2025, Bartz v. Anthropic sought to clarify the question of whether usage of copyrighted books to train AI models is protected by the “fair use” doctrine. In Episode 12 of The AI Arena, our host Sean interviews Robert Brauneis, Professor of Law and Co-Director of the Intellectual Property Program at George Washington University Law School. Professor Bruneis highlights key facets of Bartz v. Anthropic and Kadrey v. Meta Platforms, Inc., where both judges ruled in favor of AI developers, but with caveats that have since resulted in a potential settlement* and  further questions regarding what is exactly considered “transformative” when it pertains to AI training. Sean skates to the puck alongside Professor Bruneis, who breaks down the four factors of fair use in the US, and offers his opinion on the rulings from both cases. This is a can’t-miss discussion for copyright and patent attorneys working with AI developers, law students interested in this rapidly evolving sector of the profession, and organizations seeking clarity on the usage of the technology in their day-to-day operations.  

*Note: This episode was recorded before public disclosure of a potential $1.5 billion settlement by Anthropic to book authors.

What is The AI Arena - Skate to The Puck: A Lewis Brisbois Podcast ?

As hockey legend Wayne Gretzky once said, "I skate to where the puck is going to be, not to where it has been." Join our host Sean Shecter on “The AI Arena —Skate to the Puck”, an exciting podcast series that unpacks how all interested in AI – including businesses, individuals and community service organizations -- can “skate” to where AI is heading and stay ahead of this rapidly evolving technology and the corresponding legal and regulatory environment. Sean looks forward to welcoming experts from industry and community organizations as well as policymakers to discuss the most pressing issues impacting the AI space.

Lewis Brisbois’ Artificial Intelligence Task Force includes a multi-disciplinary team of attorneys that leverage their unparalleled understanding of the key legal and regulatory issues impacting this unprecedented, cutting-edge and ever-evolving technology. Our attorneys have a sophisticated understanding of the tools and models that underpin AI and the development of related policy that will impact how society uses and manages this technology through our extensive network including AI leaders, entrepreneurs, developers and policymakers. Learn more about this team here: https://lewisbrisbois.com/practices/artificial-intelligence-task-force