Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends
Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: Straightjacket is over. Why don't you have some milk? It'll calm you down.
Trailer: When I put those clothes on, something happens to me. Something frightening. No. No. No.
Pete Wright: Was that a product placement, do you think, by the American Dairy Council? That dude loved milk.
Andy Nelson: That and yeah. Big glasses of milk. Like, because he was using it like, you know, I'll make you a drink. Oh, okay. Well, I'm gonna make myself some milk.
And his glass of milk was like a dinner sized glass of milk. Like, it was huge. It's not like a little whiskey shot glass of milk. It's like a full on thing. Yeah.
Pete Wright: He just hangs out during a conversation with a big glass of
Andy Nelson: milk. Yeah.
Pete Wright: Just hangs out with it. I don't understand that. I didn't care for it. It was too much.
Andy Nelson: Oh, that's that's me. I love milk. I would do I would be here.
Pete Wright: I can't handle dairy. Even being in the
Andy Nelson: room with it gives me the squirts. Wow.
Pete Wright: Okay. So straight jacket. You had never seen this movie. Right? Because that's the premise.
Andy Nelson: I had never seen this movie. That's that was the whole thing. I all the pics that I did. So, yeah, I picked three films for this particular spoiled, rotten twist ending series that it makes it tricky because it's like the whole premise of that series is that you haven't or that you've seen the film, is it once you once it's been spoiled for you, is it rotten? Does it not hold up anymore?
And, yeah, I guess this is an interesting one because we are jumping back to 1964. So the question is, with a film that is older like this that is incorporating twist endings, like, how well are they doing with twist endings?
Pete Wright: That's a big question. Right. That's a that's a big question. There's a lot more going on in this movie, though, than just the the twist ending. And I think that's that's interesting what the movie aspires to do and to, to display in terms of, like, psychological trauma and identity transformation kind of top themes.
It's a huge gaslighting movie. Right? Like, it it's this should have been in a gaslighting series. And we didn't we do a series?
Andy Nelson: We've already done that series, Pete.
Pete Wright: I I know what you're doing.
Andy Nelson: Were we both just trying to gaslight each other?
Pete Wright: And and, you know, Naughty Children. We did a Naughty Children series once. We did do
Andy Nelson: a yeah. But you can't do that. That is giving things away here. And we just if you haven't seen this movie, you need to see it. Like, that's the the whole idea of this series.
You probably should watch the movie before you listen to our conversation, because we are going to really ruin every little, plot detail Yeah. Including the twist. So Yeah. Maybe we already did. Maybe we already did.
Pete Wright: So it it's got a lot going on. And, oh, lest we forget, you know, it's it's also a it's got a big vein of societal, like, criticism, judgment. Like, she can't she comes out of the asylum, and she can't make her way alone. Right? Nobody trusts her.
Nobody likes her once they find out who she is. And and I think there's there so the movie's trying to jam an awful lot into it conceptually. To what degree do you feel like the movie succeeds?
Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's interesting, especially as you kind of look at, other people's thoughts on the film. For me, I thought it actually did a great job of giving us I I I saw somebody comparing this to, like, it's a slasher movie. I mean, the movie poster says right on the thing, warning, straight jacket vividly depicts axe murders. Like, it's on the poster, which is obviously a tantalizing tease that William Castle would use to draw the audience in.
But, one of the reviews that I was looking at said, it's more Mildred Pierce than Psycho. And I thought that was actually interesting because you definitely have this sense of the story about mother and daughter and the relationship, the familial relationship between the two as they are sorting out their relationships as the daughter is coming into her own, trying to figure out who she is and everything. And, I mean, Mildred Pierce is a great film, very much more kind of a noir ish drama that, works incredibly well. And, yeah, there's a lot going on with the daughter in that film. And here, you know, this story is about a mother who is so bereft when she discovers that her husband is, having an affair that she finds an axe and beheads both her husband and his lover.
And then it's sent to an asylum for twenty years, and the daughter was a witness of the crime and grows up, we think relatively normally, you know, has her uncle and aunt taking care of her, and she seems pretty normal. But as we discover over the course of the film, there definitely has been some psychological damage, done to her. And so I think it makes for a very interesting exploration, especially in the period. Like, we're also seeing how women are treated, how women are thought of, especially when they commit crimes like murder, and just the societal judgments. And, there's a lot of stuff going on with this about just kind of the the the struggles that a mother like this has of figuring out how to reconnect with somebody that she's never really ended up having a chance to develop a relationship with.
Pete Wright: That's that's an interesting thing. And I I think like so much about the movie and the daughter the the daughter and her relationship I I think this could have been such an interesting straight played straight drama. And it's the fact that they try to build the twist into the movie and the final resolution that becomes problematic for me because I actually thought that what the mother and daughter were working through together was quite authentic. And I thought it was really nice to watch the daughter sort of come to terms with who her mother is, and she came she was so authentic and sweet and nurturing and clearly, you know, on her mother's team, like, trying to to bring her in that for most of the movie, that when we finally get the turn at the end, it feels shoehorned in. I was actually I found myself really interested in the recovery of mother, and I thought it would have been it it could have been a a fascinating story without without the the finale.
Andy Nelson: Yes. And it would have been a different sort of movie, and I I I I I agree with you. I I enjoy exactly what we're getting throughout the bulk of the film. It's a very interesting study of a woman trying to work through her own mental stability and the idea of, like, being told for twenty years, you're crazy. You're crazy.
You're a psycho. You're a murderer. You're criminally insane. Having the doctor say, okay. We think you've worked through this.
Let's test you out and see how you do now in the real world and being thrust back into it, and then just trying to figure out, like, am I normal? Like, you know, the you're putting on the new clothes and the wig and everything and and getting a sense of normalcy in return to her youth. Like, how does that play? Like, there were a lot of really interesting elements throughout the story for Lucy, Joan Crawford's character, as we're watching her go through all this, but also then for Carol as she's trying to help her mother figure out the relationship with her mother, figure out the relationship with her fiance and how that's gonna play out. And I definitely can see your point that the ending ends up feeling shoehorred in because they're definitely it definitely does once you once you see what, you know, what's really been going on.
At the same time, knowing that it's a William Castle film and that this is the sort of story that we're gonna get, I still think it ended up playing okay. And while it does it it does feel shoehorned in, it allowed the film to still kind of continue like, there was this level of fun with the film. It wasn't just like a melodrama about returning to life after this trauma. It was I mean, it's an axe murder, mystery story.
Pete Wright: Well, it is. But for for most of the movie, it is a melodrama about returning to civilization. For most of the movie, it's making good on that promise. And I think that's the problem I murders thrown in. Oh, yeah.
Andy Nelson: I mean, we're not we are getting murders in there.
Pete Wright: We you're right. We are getting some murders, but I do I I think the way that Diane Baker plays this of of the daughter, Carol and I don't know why we're dancing around the the ending right now. It feels like we're trying not to spoil it, but we we really we've told people we're gonna spoil it. So it turns out it's a mission impossible that Carol, the now adult daughter, puts on a mask to look exactly like her mother, to look exactly like the mother that she dressed up in a fashion sequence earlier with the wig and the dress, and then goes around killing people. That is resolved very quickly at the end of the movie.
And I just found it unearned. Right? The movie the the movie was playing their relationship so straight that I never felt like there was enough strain between them that would've that would've led or enough weirdness in in Carol's identity that that earned her final break at the end. I didn't I just didn't believe it.
Andy Nelson: No. And I I definitely agree with you. I think that's one of the issues with the film. I guess I just because of the the genre we're in and because of everything, I end up buying into it a little more. I like, I end up not really having a problem because it does come across as as such a goofy finale, And I like that you went with Mission Impossible.
For me, I think the more fitting description is Scooby Doo because that's exactly what where it went for me. It's like the total Scooby Doo mask ending and the reveal. It's like,
Andy Nelson: that's not Lucy. Rip. It's been Carol all along.
Andy Nelson: But just the fact that it's not just Carol committing these these murders that we have over the course of the film. And as we find out, she has method to her madness. Right? Like, knew that Bill's parents would never let the two of them marry because of who her mother was. And, you know, we I mean, her parent his parents aren't exactly tight lipped about it when they're having that conversation with Lucy.
Like like, Bill's mom, like, pretty much says, you know, there is no way in hell that we would ever let our son marry your daughter. Carol knew that all along. And so all of this, the machinations that she's been putting together have all been so that she can marry Bill, they can live happily ever after, and not have to worry about any of this stuff. The and setting up the fact that her mother would get put away for it. So she ends up killing their family's yard man who's kind of helping with everything, George Kennedy, and the doctor.
Anyone who could potentially spoil the plans for her. So it's not like she's completely crazy crazy. You know? She has a plan that she's put in place. But the fact that she's also made this beautiful bust of her mother and then uses it to make make the mask.
So it's not even that she's just going around killing these people. She legit is wearing a mask of her mother to do so. It just was so over the top. Like, I was laughing out loud because it's just like, when it's revealed that that's what's happening, it was pretty funny. Now to your point though, I get it.
Like, we never see Carol other than the distress that we see, like the the light level of distress that she has as she's trying to figure out how to navigate around her mother, how to figure out, like, how do I have these conversations with someone I haven't seen for twenty years? Are we still friends? Are we still family? And then same thing, like, do I tell Bill's parents, or should I you know, I'm I'm a little nervous about that. We're never seeing anything that hints at any sort of psychological damage that has been done to her other than, like, the very opening when she we see the little girl as as mom's, you know, cutting heads off.
And so I think if if there is an issue with the film, it's that Carol never exhibits through the film any sense of a sign of of being a broken person who actually is the killer. Now the the problem there well, the trick, I should say, in in crafting of the script is like, if you do that, is it gonna give it away too much? And so, you know, I guess my question then is, is this an issue with watching this now versus 1964? Were you ever in doubt that it was the daughter who was actually doing this stuff? Or was there ever did you ever think that Lucy was actually still broken and was actually committing these murders?
Pete Wright: Well, that's a I think that's a a good question. And I think that I think the movie is trying to get us to believe that Lucy is still broken. And the reason I think that is because they never set up any ulterior, like, potential villain. Like, that's one of the things you look for in this movie is who else could it be? Right?
Who else is acting shifty enough that they could be doing it? And there's really no one else. I mean, yeah, George Kennedy, it was like he but he was he was just weird and kinda mean because he it felt like he was on to something and not that he was a potential killer. And so because there were no other potential I mean, no other potential candidates, the the movie wants us to know that it that it should still be Lucy. It's broken, and she's in a fugue state, and she's going around killing people, she doesn't even know it.
Andy Nelson: But do you do you end up feeling that it's that that works? Because or, I mean, based is it I guess the question is, and it's hard to put ourselves into the headspace of the audience from 1964. For us, is it too hard to watch a movie like this going, well, that's too obvious. It's gotta be Carol or somebody else. Because, like like, do you ever start thinking that it really is Lucy?
I can absolutely
Pete Wright: I can get behind that. I think they could have actually done that. I I don't now that I know the answer, I don't actually remember what I was feeling as I was going through. I think I was probably on board with Lucy, but also knowing that this was a a spoiled part of our spoiled rotten series. Like, there's a reason you picked this movie.
So I'm already watching it circumspect. Right?
Andy Nelson: I don't know. For me, and as I watch this, I'm just like, it is it's so obviously gonna be Carol in the end. Like, she I mean, for me, it does set up at the very beginning as a little kid, she sees mom beheading these people. So that for me was the trigger that said it has to be Carol who's doing all this. And whether she's intending to set mom up or not, she is the one who's now taken it on.
So I just bought the whole time that Carol is doing all of this. Like, especially, like, George Kennedy is set up to be Lucy except for the fact that Bill drives Carol back home and drops her off right before George Kennedy's character gets killed. It's like they had it perfectly set up for it to feel like Lucy, but then they bring Carol home. And it's like, okay. We'll see.
They couldn't do it until Carol made it back to the farm, and she's home or she's back here now. And, of course, now that's exactly when George Kennedy gets killed. I'm gonna tell you I'm gonna tell you a truth about my experience watching the movie, which I think will explain a lot.
Pete Wright: In the opening sequence, we see Lucy behead her husband and the adulteress, And we see Carol, the child, witness it. And because this was in the spoiled rotten series, my thought was, okay. The delusion is that we we think we're seeing something that actually happened, But what really happened is that Carol, as a 10 year old, got up and actually was the one who cut the heads off with an axe. And I was in that mindset and thought, this is gonna be really dumb if that's the way that plays out. And then the movie started giving me something different, and I got excited.
I thought this is gonna be a much more interesting movie. So I was on board with the twist being that Carol's a child killer bad seed.
Andy Nelson: Gotcha. Right out of the gate.
Andy Nelson: She's always been bad.
Pete Wright: Out of the gate. Yeah. She's always been bad.
Andy Nelson: And then mother was, like, covering up her crimes or something by admitting to
Pete Wright: the fact that she
Andy Nelson: did it. Yeah.
Pete Wright: Mother went to an asylum and was driven crazy by being in an asylum because she was covering for her child's murders, that would be an amazing movie.
Andy Nelson: Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Well and I guess I mean, yeah. It it is hard to to watch a film like this and not have expectations for where's the twist gonna happen when it is in this particular series.
Like, would I have been expecting a twist had I just put this on? Because I'm like, know, I'm gonna watch some William Castle movies, and I put this on. Would I have been more surprised by the twist? You know? Yeah.
Right. I don't know. The other thing that I was wondering is, like, in the production style, the first person who gets killed is the doctor. And when I mean, not counting the two at the beginning that when we actually see Lucy behead her husband and and his girlfriend. Later, twenty years later, when the doctor gets killed, he's lured into a dark, barn or or a barn, and then the door shuts.
And it is, like, practically pitch black. Like, you really don't see anybody doing it. And likewise, when George Kennedy gets killed, you see the shadow on the wall, and then you see the fantastic George Kennedy puppet that's head gets completely lopped off with one Full stop. One beautiful blow. It was so perfect.
Oh my god. That was fantastic. I really it doesn't they don't say this, but I really wanted to like, a bigger hint that she had been feeding the bodies to the pigs. Like, I really wanted that in here. Because, like, when he when George Kennedy is looking in that trunk or whatever, all we really see is clothing.
So I'm like, is the body gone? Did she feed the bodies to the pig? Like, I was getting excited about, like, that's we're going into some really dark territory with this movie. Anyway, my point is when these two people get killed, it is dark and it is shadowy shadowy, and there's really not even a hint that it's Lucy. And I thought that was interesting because of where we go later in the film with the whole costume and and mask and everything to look exactly like Lucy, that they don't just show us Lucy committing the murders.
Like, that actually would have maybe made it even a bigger twist had we seen from behind as Lucy in her dress and the wig and everything comes in and and commits these crimes. The only hint we get is when Bill's dad is in his closet, and and Lucy comes out from behind the clothes and attacks him with with the axe there. And we just it's a very, very quick cut, but that's the only time we get a hint that it might actually be Lucy who is doing all of this. And I thought that was an interesting choice that Castle made. I mean, how do you think that that plays, the fact that it's kind of hidden from us during the murders?
Pete Wright: Yeah. Again, I think that probably goes to just letting people believe it could be anyone. Right? Like, we don't we don't want you to think it's anyone. I do agree with you.
I think making a stronger commitment to the fact that it really could be Lucy, you know, would have made it for a better twist and make good on the callback to the fact that that Carol made such an effort to give her a complete makeover to look just a certain way. You know, that's that was an important thing in hindsight that I think they could have made use of during the movie. Like, they don't at all until the very end.
Andy Nelson: And who knows? There could have been production reasons for that. Maybe the mask was very fragile, and it didn't work for more than one scene, like, you know, the shark in Jaws or something. And they used it as much as they had it for. I mean, who knows?
Pete Wright: Well, but even the silhouettes though. Right? I mean, you didn't you didn't have to use the mask. They could just use Joan Crawford in shadow. Right?
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because I don't think when we see George Kennedy get killed, I think it's more just a shadow of the axe Axe. Than the woman.
And Yeah.
Pete Wright: The head falls off.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I
Pete Wright: just wanna say that again.
Andy Nelson: It just, like, rolls off the body.
Andy Nelson: Skip, you Oh, so perfect.
Pete Wright: We we keep talking about William Castle, and I think we need to talk a little bit more specifically about William Castle because you, I imagine, have seen more William Castle than I.
Andy Nelson: Believe it or not, I have seen very few William Castle films. I think
Pete Wright: I choose not, sir.
Andy Nelson: You choose not to. I mean, I've seen like, he produced Rosemary's Baby. So I actually had just rewatched that. And other than this, I think the only other film of his that I've seen is 13 ghosts. So I've I've not seen much of his work, sadly.
Pete Wright: You just I I think are clearly better acclimated to his reputation for the kinds of movies that he makes, because I've I've seen House on Haunted Hill and Rosemary's Baby. That's really it. And I think I was watching House on Haunted Hill as a a part of the series that involves that movie and reboots
Andy Nelson: and City of the Dark. And such.
Pete Wright: Yeah. And so I was not watching it with any intention of or with any expectation of what, you know, what William Castle did. And and I don't I'm I'm not a William Castle scholar, so I went into this movie not really expecting the sort of castle thumbprint. Yeah. Did is that I mean, you you had you kinda knew what to expect?
Andy Nelson: Well, only in the sense that, you know, William Castle is kind of known for directing the thrillers and low budget sorts of things. And as a director who, and producer who is really all about gimmicks and everything, like the Tingler. The Tingler. Yeah. Famous ones.
But even this one, as as we talked about it in the pre show, when they were doing the marketing for this film at theaters, they were passing out little cardboard axes with, like, blood on it to the audience when they bought their tickets and came in. And so I think that speaks to the level of just kind of that sort of tie in that he really wanted to to make it fun for audiences to come see these, you know, b movie thrillers that he was cranking out.
Pete Wright: Mhmm. The a cardboard axe in the scope of, like, from the tingler to this on that scale, cardboard axe is pretty weak sauce. Like, wiring Steets in the theater with a buzzer is amazing. That's that's alpha.
Andy Nelson: Oh, that's absolutely the best. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's not exactly that same level, but, you know, he convinced Joan Crawford. Well, I it wasn't much convincing.
She was getting a percentage on this film. So she was making good money for getting more butts in seats, but, like, she would go to screenings and come out on the stage dressed in her, you know, fabulous outfits carrying an axe. And so that was, you know, also part of the the, I think, joy that people had and just, you know, Joan Crawford really just digging into this, this role of these types of films
Andy Nelson: that she had been making at this point.
Pete Wright: Well, it's it's a it's a in that respect, it's a fun movie to to watch with that in mind, and it makes me look forward to watching more William Castle. Like, I would love to get a real sense of this guy's fingerprints and and and and especially what did he do on theatrical release in this era, right, in the fifties and sixties? What else did he what was the 13 ghost gimmick? Right? Like, who comes out as a ghost?
I don't know.
Andy Nelson: It was filmed in Illusiono. Each patron received a handheld ghost viewer or or slash remover. During certain segments of the film, a person could see the ghost by looking through the red cellophane or hide them by looking behind the blue. Without the viewer, the ghosts were somewhat visible. The DVD release included red slash blue glasses.
They're not three d. That's just something that you can use to see the ghosts so that you could replicate the effect. So that is what 13 ghosts used to.
Pete Wright: See, that's damn clever.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. That's
Pete Wright: fun. So he did 13 ghosts, and then three years later, he did 13 frightened girls. Is that just a change of the POV? No. It's the girl's perspective.
Andy Nelson: Oh, let's see. What did he do? Awesome. Yeah. He he he launched a publicized worldwide casting hunt for the prettiest girls from different countries.
Not 13 as in the title, but 15. He and then he filmed slightly different versions highlighting each girl for the release in her country. See? That's damn clever. Okay.
I'm getting it. I'm getting I'm piecing together this William Castle bloke. Yeah. Interesting stuff. So, yeah, he's clearly having fun, and and I think that's where, like, knowing that William Castle is behind to this, that's why it was easier for me to just buy into that ending.
I wasn't bothered by the fact that it was giving me it wasn't giving me the melodramatic ending that it certainly seemed like it would have been setting up. You know? Yeah. I mean, she wakes up from a dream, and there are heads laying on her pillow.
Pete Wright: I thought they were statues. I thought they were puppets. I know. I in hindsight, it seems so crazy that this is not the movie I expected. Was I watching the same movie?
Is it possible? It yeah. No. It's it's it's in there. It's in there.
I just had a problem with the with that particular performance of of Diane Baker. It felt a little bit too it felt just too straight for what they were trying to twist it around to be.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well, and that's in the scope of this particular series, the spoiled rotten twist ending series. That is something that, like I mean, obviously, it's something that bothers you on first watch. And, like, I don't think on rewatch, there's really any hint of any sort of subterfuge or manic nature coming from, coming from Carol that we would ever see. So I think even on a rewatch, it's not gonna be like, you're either just gonna go along with it because it's a William Castle film, or it still is gonna be something that bothers you because you're just not getting that out of Carol ever in as as as in her character.
I think you're right. I think you're right.
Pete Wright: It makes the rewatch sort of less fun because you're not piecing anything new together.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. There really isn't anything. Yeah. Do you like Diane Baker?
What do you think of her? I just think it's funny that we're talking about her knowing that, in a couple series from now, we're gonna be talking about the silence of the lambs. And every time I see her face, the very first thing I think of is the senator in that film because that's where I'm I I don't know why that is such a memorable role because it's so small in that film. But when I see Diane Baker, my head instantly goes to silence of the lambs. Same thing when I recently watched diary of Anne Frank for the first time.
Like, I saw her on screen. I'm like, oh, it's it's the silence of the lambs, senator. That's really funny. It's like she's done a
Pete Wright: lot of stuff. She's done a lot stuff.
Andy Nelson: That's the only thing I could think of. So funny.
Pete Wright: She was in one of my favorites. It's one of the Christopher Guest movies. I think it was the was it not the it's 2,003, A Mighty Wind. She she's in it, and I love her. She's the supreme folk defense lawyer.
That's her credit. So good. I actually quite like Diane Baker. I think she's I think she's really great. And I I don't go to silence of the lambs.
I probably go to a mighty wind or Marnie. But I at a 24 credits, that surprises me because she's one of those who exists in just the few movies I've seen her in. I had no idea that she had quite this level this size catalog.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Like, very, very busy career. Journey to the center of the earth. Like you said, Marnie, Mirage, that's another one that that is a great one that she did. Lots of TV also.
Pete Wright: And I don't think we've done any other, movies with her in the
Andy Nelson: I don't think so. I think I think Silence of the Lambs will be the second film of hers that we will have talked about. So Interesting. But you're right. Wow.
So much TV. We haven't talked about the net, but she's in that. Okay.
Pete Wright: Okay. Keep that on them on your mind.
Andy Nelson: You know, another I mean, we've talked a lot about Joan Crawford, and I think the only other time we've talked about Joan Crawford was in whatever happened to baby Jane in our Betty Davis series from a while ago. And we did talk about how that film kind of falls under this. They they call it a psychobitty subgenre. They sometimes call it the grand dom guignol, subgenre or or the, hagsploitation. It was this period, and it really all started with whatever happened to baby Jane, where these older women who had kind of, as far as Hollywood is concerned, were past their prime, just as always ridiculous with Hollywood.
But they would be in these films where they still carried kind of the air and graces of a grand dame, but there was definitely more of kind of this sense of effects work, horror stuff, psychological games being played, all of that. And that became a big part of this subgenre. A lot of people don't like that they call them these things, but and they criticize that they were using these these actresses this way. But a lot of people acknowledge at the same time that if they hadn't been doing this, like, lot of these women would not have ended up having these amazing parts of their career that kind of rejuvenated it for an entire other, set of decades and other generations. And so there's definitely a a joy to be had in these.
And Joan Crawford, I think I mean, I had I have so much fun with whatever happened to baby Jane. Like, those two actresses going head to head is just a blast. And I I think Joan Crawford just is great in it. And I again, your what you're saying about kind of the melodramatic nature of this story and her and the gaslighting and trying to figure out who she is and everything, it works really well. Like, Joan Crawford is really playing, you know, all cylinders in this film, and I just I had so much fun watching her throughout this.
Pete Wright: I I can't agree more. I I mean, I think when she the moment she walks in, she plays so small. Right? So, like, defeated and not that giant sort of caricature of Joan Crawford that we see in in, you know, some of these other movies. She is so subtle.
She's most of this movie, she's playing so subtle until she, you know, she's confronted with heads in a bed, like, and then she she goes off. But she is she this weirdly, this little movie demonstrates an awful lot of Joan Crawford's range, and hag exploitation be damned. I think this is a this this would be a part to fight for for, you know, for an adult woman to play. Not not a past their prime woman, but an adult woman. What a great part.
Andy Nelson: Well, and you get some great moments because when she comes back twenty years later, her hair is grayed. She definitely looks a little more worn and worn for worn for the wear. And her outfits are are kind of just simple and, you know, old hospital sorts of things. And when Carol gives her that makeover, beautiful dress, great wig, and then you see how Joan Crawford plays that when she meets Bill for the first time. And suddenly, it's like she's recreating her youth and turns on her sex kitten act.
And it's like, what is she doing with his lips? Like, she's like like fondling his lips. I'm like, is this a thing? What on earth? Like, if my daughter didn't have you, you'd be mine.
Like, she goes full kind of crazy sex kid into the point where Carol's like, what the hell have I just unleashed on my poor fiance?
Pete Wright: That should be, like, maybe that should be a parenting test. Like, when
Andy Nelson: I'll try that on my son's girlfriend and see how it plays. Tell you tell
Pete Wright: your wife she needs to do that to your daughter's boyfriend and see what happens. This ought to be that ought to be really good for their relationship, for their bonding.
Andy Nelson: Oh my god.
Pete Wright: Can't even imagine. It's crazy. Like, that whole sequence is crazy. And the way she just she pushes her whole body, like, up against him and and looks so longingly at him, it's it's really awful. It's just awful and and perfect.
Like, she's she is she's really good. That Joan Crawford, she's really, really good. And and playing the victim like she does, the, like, the the victim of gaslighting and and what it does to her mind and what it does to the set. Like, when it when the the the walls go up, we have that fantastic top down shot where she's at the makeup mirror, and it's just all the lined walls. It it's fantastic.
Like, it's really well designed.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. It really puts you into her headspace. Yeah. Leif Erikson plays Bill. He's one of those faces that is kind of a that guy.
He's just, you know, he's not a Viking as some may may think. Yeah. But he's definitely one of those faces who's popped into all sorts of things like Sorry Wrong Number, On the Waterfront, Mirage again with, with Diane Baker, The Snake Pit, and just an incredibly long list of projects that he was a part of, for many, many, many years. He's kind of that guy, and I think he's fine as Bill here. Did you have any thoughts on him?
Pete Wright: You know, I think both of the men in this movie are didn't have a lot of thoughts. I I think just giving giving what's his name? The the big line to go drink milk. I I think that says it all. They they're just sort of present.
I like him. He's perfectly charismatic, but, really, he's someone for the women to act against.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. He's pretty cardboard. To that point, Lucy's husband at the beginning, or who gets decapitated pretty quickly, is actually Lee Majors in his very first role, which I think is is fun to note that he pops in, only to get beheaded.
Pete Wright: I had to go watch it again. I didn't pick him out until I was looking at the cast after I watched
Andy Nelson: the movie. Right. Because he's not credited. Yeah.
Pete Wright: Yeah. That's a little bit sad. I wanted to I I would have enjoyed noticing that on my own. But apart from that, I think the the the male characters are, you know, they just they play a real Costner for me. A real real two by four.
Andy Nelson: What what's funny about the doctor that comes to see her is that he actually wasn't an actor. He was he actually worked with Pepsi. He was the vice president of public public relations for the Pepsi Cola company. And Joan Crawford, who at the time, she had been, I think she was widowed at the time to Alfred Steele, who is Pepsi's CEO. She was still on the board of directors and one that's why we see Pepsi in the film.
Like, she she had Pepsi product placement in all of her films because of all of this, and that's why she demanded that Mitchell Cox come in and play the doctor. She didn't consult William Castle at all on this. She just had him come in to do it, and I think that's a funny little funny little thing. And you know what? I never would have guessed that he was not an actor.
I thought he was I mean, it's not a hard role, but, you know, he was fine.
Pete Wright: Yeah. I it's I guess those were I I wanna say those were the days,
Andy Nelson: but really these are still the days. It it
Pete Wright: is interesting because I I didn't I wouldn't have expected that level of product placement for Pepsi in this era.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. But Right.
Pete Wright: But, you know
Andy Nelson: Well, it does make you wonder, like, where does where does product placement really get started? You know? Like, is it because of stuff like this? Like, she was married to the CEO of PepsiCo, and so she's putting Pepsi in everything, and then it kind of continues. Like, where was that line that that we start getting more Pepsi popping up or or just products purchased, like, you know, paid for so that they could be in these movies?
I'm curious. Because nowadays, it's like constant. You know, that would be I'm just
Pete Wright: gonna put this out there for the next Real Idea Factory. That would be a really funny series, is to do movies, a series of movies, like the top five movies in terms of product placement dollars. Yeah. I think that would be really funny to just watch hour and a half commercials.
Andy Nelson: It'd be hard to find the that takes some research to figure that out. But, yeah, that would be interesting. Yeah. I'm looking right now. It's been around since at least the eighteen nineties.
Washing day in Switzerland, the Lumiere brothers features sunlight soap. That one. There you go. So Lumiere brothers around. A long time.
Yeah. You know, we mentioned good old George Kennedy. What did you think of him as the, the yard man,
Pete Wright: the handyman working around the farm here? Smarter than everybody else. Old George Kennedy, surly angry at the world. Felt like he comes out of a different movie to be in this one and then lost his head.
Andy Nelson: Does he, though? Does he? Like, he is kind of the sleazy guy who works on the farm. And,
Andy Nelson: like Yeah.
Andy Nelson: If he wasn't suspicious in, like, stealing the car that she had hidden away and making it his own, like, he's the sort of person who who his next step would be to blackmail. You know? Like, he like, I I thought he played that really well. I liked
Pete Wright: Oh, I did too. And and to be clear, I think he walked out of another movie to be in this one where he was the same guy. Like, he is that hand to glove in this character. Like, I I really I don't want any of this to sound like I'm dismissing his performance. I thought he was great.
I I like George Kennedy.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I mean, he's great in everything. I just love him.
Pete Wright: Yeah. He really is.
Andy Nelson: Last person I wanted to talk about was Robert Bloch, the writer for this. A very prominent writer known for a lot of fiction, crime, horror, fantasy, tons of radio movies, TV. Probably Psycho is what he's most known for as far as something that he wrote, but, like, tons of other stuff. And I mean, you did an HP Lovecraft series over on, sitting in the dark. You know, he was a protege of Lovecraft, and, some of his story ideas for things like weird tales came from, like, his time working with, with Lovecraft.
But
Pete Wright: Was he also was he also a young Nazi?
Andy Nelson: I don't know about that, that part of his whole thing. But yeah. But they've adapted tons of his, like, his comics and, his novels and everything for for films. And then he also like, this is one of the original screenplays that he wrote. This and the very next film that William Castle directed, The Night Walker, both starring Joan Crawford, I believe.
Or did The Nightwalker I can't remember. But anyway, he but he did his first two screenplays were for William Castle. It's this and The Nightwalker. Interesting. I yeah.
Pete Wright: I mean, he's credits are are fairly legendary. I yeah. I he's one of those I don't I don't see a lot of tentacles in the stuff that I've seen of his. That would be the extent of the Lovecraft tie in that I I get. Do you I mean, how much have you seen of Block stuff?
Andy Nelson: I don't think I've seen much of it. I'm just looking through the stuff. I I mean, Psycho, obviously. And Torture Garden is one that I, have on my list of things to to watch. And but the rest of it, like, I just haven't seen.
I've heard of a lot of them though. And so I guess that's Yeah. One of those things where I'm like, maybe I need to watch more of these things. It looked like he worked with director Freddie Francis quite a bit.
Pete Wright: And this was still pretty early. After straightjacket in '64, he got busy. Right. Yeah. Interesting.
Andy Nelson: Yep. What a character. Interesting stuff. Indeed. Indeed.
Pete Wright: Anybody else hot on your list?
Andy Nelson: No. I I think that pretty much covers it. I mean, I just it was I I had a lot of fun with it. It's, one of those movies that I think, you know, I can definitely see the problems with it. And I think per our conversation about films that have twist endings that can be spoiled, I I do feel like, for me, at least, it was pretty obvious that it was the daughter from the beginning.
And as you have and we've discussed, as you pointed out that we really discussed, it never really sets that up. And then you get that big twist at the ending, and you're like, Okay. It's hard to really buy into that. And I think this would be a hard one to watch, to really buy into it even on a rewatch. That being said, I'd still rewatch this.
I had a lot of fun with it.
Pete Wright: I think I would have more fun with the way it was shot on another watch, especially knowing what the what the twist is. I think Arthur, Arling, you know, we've we've talked about how so many of the sequences, the actual murder sequences are shot so dark, but so much of that darkness is in service of incredible shadows. And I I think that's that's a lot of fun. I think I would enjoy watching for those moments a second time. But you're right.
I don't get I don't get enough out of the story. Like, the this movie succeeds not because of the twist, unlike other twist ending movies that succeed because of their twists. This is this succeeds for for many other reasons, and performances are are really solid, and
Andy Nelson: there are central two characters here. So Yeah. I will say one of the things that I didn't necessarily enjoy was the almost, like, pre prerequisite expository bit at the end that felt so of its time. That's like, well, now we have to spell it out for everybody because it has to, like, you know, per the people who are higher up that wanna make sure that we're explaining away the criminal elements of the story. Like, that ending was very expository as she kind of, like, sits there talking with her brother about, like, what happened?
Why did Carol go through all of
Pete Wright: this? Right. I guess she put those heads in the bed because yeah.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. That was too much. Much.
Pete Wright: Much. Little much.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Alright. Alright. Well, we'll be right back, but first, our credits.
Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by the original orchestra featuring Rain Rayton, Elom Peretz, Kadir Demir, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at the -numbers.com, box office mojo Com, IMDB Com, and Wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
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Pete Wright: Awards, Andy. How to do an awards season?
Andy Nelson: This wasn't exactly the sort of film is banging at the awards doors in 1964. In fact, it has one nomination, but it didn't get until 02/2010. And it is, of course, the Saturn Awards, the Academy of Science Fiction Fantasy and Horror Awards. We love them. And, it was for best DVD collection.
This was part of the William Castle collection that came out that year, but it lost to the Star Trek original motion picture collection instead.
Pete Wright: That's sad. Yeah. Just one I mean, you know, just the one. I think these these ladies deserved more.
Andy Nelson: They they should have. Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Andy,
Pete Wright: you would think we would learn our lesson, but I fear that we're back in the same place that we were several movies ago where you are hobbled by a lack of data. How to do at the box office?
Andy Nelson: Yeah. This was a frustrating one. I really wish I knew how much, Castle had to make this movie. Unfortunately, there is just no information about it out there. The movie did open 01/08/1964, and apparently, it did really well.
It ended up earning 7,300,000.0 at the box office or 75,000,000 in today's dollars. I have no idea, unfortunately, what its profit was, but based on how happy people seemed to be with its success, I'm guessing that it was handsome.
Pete Wright: Handsome. Yeah. I I think this movie was handsome.
Andy Nelson: Well, you know
Pete Wright: I overall, I enjoyed it in spite of the fact that I think you're right. It is it is spoiled, and therefore, on some on some scale, rotten. Yeah. I I still would watch it again, and I'm glad we watched it.
Andy Nelson: It's a fun one. I absolutely would watch it again. I had a great time. And, yeah, it is one that I struggle with when, one, I see the ending for me, it was pretty obvious where it was gonna go. So it wasn't I mean, yeah, you could say it was spoiled, but it really was just kind of obvious.
But at the same time, I do think that it you'll still have a struggle re rewatching this as you watch Carol work through the movie and never get a sense that there is anything wrong with her until suddenly that break at the end. And that that does make it in the scope of this particular series. This is one that you could could label rotten, I suppose. Still, I had a great old time with it. Absolutely would watch it again.
So
Pete Wright: Hey. I can I ask you a question? The movie 1964, they wrote straight jacket as s t r a I t dash jacket.
Andy Nelson: Correct.
Pete Wright: But today, if you're gonna write straight jacket, you're writing straight, s t r a I g h t, jacket, one word, concatenated. Correct. When did that change, do you think? It's the same jacket.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. When did straight jacket become straight jacket, spelling wise? The standard spelling is actually s t r a I t j a c k e t. The spelling with it no hyphen. The the g h t is considered a less common variation.
Interesting. Word straight jacket, no hyphen, has been used since around 1795. It's a combination of the adjective straight, s t r a I t. I didn't know that was an adjective. I just thought it was something that Magellan had had one of.
Meat. Right. The word straight comes from the Latin verb, which means to draw or bind tight. Okay. The word straight jacket was originally used to describe a garment worn to restrain people who are considered violent or insane, and it can be used as a verb, meaning to severely limit someone's development or creativity.
The most common spelling is this title minus the hyphen. Fascinating. But you can you can spell it with a hyphen or with the g h t. They're also called camisoles or straight waistcoats.
Pete Wright: How how would you have spelled it? You're writing an email to me. You're writing the email to me, and you say, Pete, you need to be put in a straight jacket. How would you have spelled it before this conversation?
Andy Nelson: I would before I even knew this film existed, I always spelled it with a g h t. Me too. That's because I don't think I even as we said, I don't think I even knew s t r a I t was an adjective.
Pete Wright: This is a teaching podcast is what I'm saying.
Andy Nelson: We are here to yeah. We should you know, Way With Words should play this podcast as a bonus episode. Yeah. We're helping the audience This was good. Learn these things.
Absolutely.
Pete Wright: I'm glad we had this little sidebar.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's very important. Very important.
Pete Wright: Mhmm.
Andy Nelson: Alright. Well, we'll be right back for our ratings, but first, here's the trailer for next week's movie closing out our spoiled rotten twist ending series. It's Bigas Luna's nineteen eighty seven film Anguish starring none other than Zelda Rubenstein.
Trailer: Missus Pressman had high hopes for her son, John.
Trailer: John is your best boy, isn't he, mother?
Yes, John. You're my best boy and the best surgeon in town.
Trailer: But the world conspired against him.
Trailer: I told you to take these things out of my eyes.
Don't get upset. I I
Take them out. Do you hear me? Do you hear me? Do you hear me? Do you hear me?
Don't be sorry.
Trailer: Until John found a way to please his mother.
Trailer: Well, you did a good job, John.
Trailer: Add to his collection.
Trailer: All eyes of the city will be ours.
Trailer: And even get into the movies. One place. You
Trailer: have no idea what it's like to really See what happens when you disobey mother?
Trailer: Anguish.
Andy Nelson: I I've I've been struggling lately. Ever since they let me out of that asylum after twenty long years, I've been wondering if I'm really, truly sane. The world seems so different now, so strange and unfamiliar. I feel like I'm walking on the edge of a razor, constantly questioning my own perception of reality. But then in the midst of my darkest moments, I discovered something that gave me a glimmer of hope, the next real film podcast.
As I listened to their analysis of films, diving deep into the themes, the characters, and the hidden meanings, I slowly started to feel like I was regaining my grip on sanity. Their insights were like a beacon of light guiding me through the fog of my own mind. Each episode was a step forward, a reminder that there was still some sense of order and logic in this chaotic world. And then I found out about their membership program. At first, I was hesitant.
I mean, after all these years of being locked away, the idea of committing to something felt overwhelming. But as I looked closer, I realized that this could be the key to unlocking a whole new level of understanding. By joining the Next Reels membership program, I'd gain access to even more of the content that had been keeping me tethered to reality, Early ad free episodes that would allow me to fully immerse myself in the analysis without any distractions. And not just for the Next Real Film Podcast, but for all the podcasts in the Next Real's family of film podcasts. Plus, as a member, I'd get monthly bonus episodes, a fun way to explore other movies and dive into more questions about them.
And perhaps most importantly, I'd be part of a community, a group of people who, like me, find solace and meaning in the world of cinema, people who understand the power of a good story and the way it can help you make sense of even the most challenging times. So with a trembling hand, I made my way to truestory.fm/join. For just $5 a month or $55 for a whole year, I can take the next step in my journey towards sanity. It's a small price to pay for the hope of finally feeling like I belonged somewhere, like I had a purpose. As I completed my membership, I felt a weight lifting off my shoulders.
I knew that with the next reel by my side, I could face whatever challenges lay ahead. Their analysis, their insights, and their community would be my anchor, my lifeline in a world that still feels so uncertain. If you're out there feeling lost and alone, wondering if you'll ever make sense of it all, Give the next reel a chance. Join their membership program at TrueStory.fm/join, and let their love of cinema guide you back towards the light. It may just be the cure you've been searching for all along.
Pete Wright: Letterboxd, Andy. Letterboxd dot com slash the next reel. That's where you can find our HQ page where we take our stars and we apportion them out to our movies. What are you gonna do this week?
Andy Nelson: I had a lot of fun with this. It's like the melodrama side of the story I really got into. I had fun with William Castle twists and and the gruesomeness of it. This was a very easy watch. Three and a half in a heart for me.
Pete Wright: Yeah. See, I knew you were gonna do that. I knew you were gonna do three and a half. Sorry. I felt like that was there.
And so I think it should be no surprise that I just sort of draft in your in the wake of your review with three stars and a heart. I agree with you on all points. I had a really good time with the principal characters even as I didn't have a good time with the with the spoiler itself. And yet, I still think I could sit down and watch this movie again, and we round up to three and a half.
Andy Nelson: So. That's right. Yes. This averages, to 3.25 in a heart, and as Pete said, it'll round up to three and a half. And a heart over at our Letterboxd page, which is, Letterboxd.com/thenextreel.
You can find me over there at soda creek film. You can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about straight jacket? We would love to hear your thoughts. Hop into the show talk channel over in our Discord community, where we will be talking about the movie this week.
When the movie ends, our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: Letterbox giveth, Andrew. As Letterbox always doeth. You seem giddy about yours. Does that mean, like, we should wait and do it at the end, or you wanna start?
Andy Nelson: I I'm just excited, so I'll just do it. Yeah. And it's because it has a moment that I thought was one of the best moments in the film as well. This is a three and a half by Ben Empey, who had this to say, there are, like, four decapitations in this movie, and the most shocking moment is when Joan lights a match on a record while it's playing.
Pete Wright: Okay. I did see that one.
Andy Nelson: That's so good.
Pete Wright: I've got a I've got a five star from Marna Larson, the account the horror of Marna Larson. Marna says, I kind of wanna say that about myself in the third person. Marna Larson was declared legally insane today, all solemnly, and then cue the big band jukebox number. That would be cool. I was gonna do a whole review, but I think that's all I've got.
Schlocktastic. Okay. Now I'm done. I can never not love a William Castle movie, and honestly, okay. Now let's bring the dumb audience up to speed epilogue in Psycho is every bit as contrived as these are often accused of being.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Thank you. Very true about that last bit of psycho. Yeah.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Totally. Thank you, Yeah. It's the
Andy Nelson: same thing.
Pete Wright: Good stuff. Same thing. Same same. Hey. Thanks, Letterboxd.
You've been great.