Christian Napier 00:12 - 00:25 Well, hello everyone and welcome to a very special Friday edition of Teamwork A Better Way. I'm Christian Napier and I am joined by the ever grateful Spencer Horn. Spencer, how you Spencer Horn 00:25 - 00:36 doing? Grateful, grateful to be with you. I was literally thinking while you were announcing that I'm so grateful that you have this great voice and you're always so good at doing this introduction. Great to be with you. Christian Napier 00:38 - 00:54 Great to be with you. It's been a minute since we had our last episode. Uh, I'm really curious to see where in the world you've been going there. You know, you, it seems like, uh, you're, you're in Brazil, then you're in Bulgaria and you're in Greece and now you're back here in the States. Christian Napier 00:54 - 00:57 So this week I had a whirlwind Spencer Horn 00:57 - 01:09 taking you to lately whirlwind trip to Buffalo and, uh, they all made sure that I got some, some great wings. They're not called Buffalo wings. They're called, they said they're called wigs. In Buffalo. Spencer Horn 01:10 - 01:37 And, uh, so I had some, uh, our guest is kind of, you know, a little closer, maybe, you know what I'm talking about, but, um, you know, it was really funny, Christian, you know, we're big sports fans. I have, there's not a town that, that except for, you know, small college towns, everybody, well, that's hyperbole. So many people in Buffalo, they're greeting each other, go bills, go bills. And, uh, they're really excited about their, their, their team right now. Spencer Horn 01:38 - 01:57 And, uh, And then last night, speaking of sports, we went and saw, for the first time live, because we're a huge Golden Knights fan, that's why I'm wearing my golden shirt this morning, beat the local Utah Mammoth 4-1, and it was exciting. Lots of fisticuffs, the Utah team lost their minds. Christian Napier 01:58 - 02:12 Well, I haven't been paying attention to them. Speaking of psychological safety. I need to be paying attention to them. I was kind of in the neck of the woods with you and our guest, Francie. Christian Napier 02:12 - 02:24 Where were you? I was in Boston. for an AI conference there and so but very happy to be back here and He's always at an Spencer Horn 02:24 - 02:29 AI conference folks who are listening. So yeah, I was just it was in Delaware But Christian Napier 02:31 - 02:51 anyway Looking forward to this conversation we're going to have today, Spencer. Super excited for our next guest. I'm wondering if you could just give her a little bit of an introduction, let our audience know who we're going to be speaking with today and what we're going to be talking about. Spencer Horn 02:51 - 03:12 Yeah, let me put you on the screen there. There's Francie. She's right here with us, coming to us from Connecticut and all the way on the other side of the country. Francie Jane is the co-founder and CEO of Terawatt, which is a business-to-business marketplace that helps healthcare organizations, which They need a lot of help, and we'll talk about that. Spencer Horn 03:12 - 03:26 But reduce turnover through expert-led coaching, and she's committed to transforming how employers understand the relationship between professional development and employee retention. I'm excited because I have two daughters that are nurses and Francie Jain 03:26 - 03:27 have Spencer Horn 03:27 - 03:49 had very, very interesting experience working in the healthcare industry, so it's very close to home. and the challenges and I have worked with them. So there's so many challenges and I'm so excited for your perspective. But before launching Terawatt Christian, she founded West River Partners, which was a consulting agency that raised capital for emerging markets based equity hedge funds. Spencer Horn 03:49 - 03:56 And she holds an A-B from, is that right, an A-B? That might be a typo, maybe a B-S. Francie Jain 03:57 - 04:02 It's technically a B-A, but Princeton likes to say A-B, so you have to say A-B because that's their weird thing. Spencer Horn 04:03 - 04:28 Is that right? Well, that's great, but that's from Princeton. They like to do things their own way, Christian, I guess, but from Princeton University and an MBA from the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, very impressive, where she refined her expertise in data analytics to drive strategic decision. This is actually a very truncated bio because she is very, very talented. Spencer Horn 04:28 - 04:50 And when we were talking about it, it's been several months, right, Francie, that you and I met, and I was so excited. We just couldn't schedule her any sooner than like two and a half, three months later. Really wants to focus on the psychological safety advantage and how that drives performance within organizations. hopefully talk about a case model. Spencer Horn 04:51 - 05:10 So I'm going to start us off. Welcome, Francie. So glad to have you. From raising capital for hedge funds to building coaching marketplace, what inspired you to pivot into workforce transformation and working on psychological safety? Francie Jain 05:11 - 05:25 Yeah. Um, well, first I will say, well, first of all, thank you for that lovely introduction. It's a pleasure to be here with you guys and chat and, um, you know, hopefully welcome back to the States from all your travels. Um, well, let's see. Francie Jain 05:25 - 05:48 Good question. Um, you know, let's see. I think when I was a younger person, I thought when people talked about the culture of a workplace, that they were kind of joking that that was like a made up thing. And so I've been really fascinated with learning about culture and learning about people and communication. Francie Jain 05:49 - 06:33 And what I always say is like, it's stuff that you know in your heart, it will make a difference if people are good communicators and collaborators and good at diffusing conflict. But oftentimes, the research isn't there or it's not well known. It's not in the ether and so I did a lot of research about it and I was just like fascinated that so much research existed about how to help people with communication and get help and get better and how it can translate into an ROI or cost savings or whatever the thing is and I just thought that was just fascinating from like with my Chicago background and even my finance background because so much in finance is about proving the ROI or proving the numbers and the story that goes with the numbers. Francie Jain 06:33 - 06:39 And it just felt to me like there was a huge opportunity to bring this to people and that they didn't realize this existed. Spencer Horn 06:40 - 07:09 Yeah, so Christian, sorry, I have one follow-up, but ROI is super important, and I know we're going to talk about that because oftentimes, you know, the soft skills are maligned as, you know, not valuable, but I love that you're going to focus on the fact that there is ROI and bring that experience. So I know our listeners out there have heard of this idea of psychological safety. I'm in the leadership development world. Spencer Horn 07:10 - 07:28 I speak, I have so many people in my industry that speak about this. It's talked about a lot. Why is it so necessary that we continue to talk about it? Why is psychological safety still an issue today in the workforce? Spencer Horn 07:29 - 07:41 If it's something that is so prevalent out there with pundits like you, me, Christian, everybody else in the world talking about it, what's the issue? Why can't we take this off the list of things that are important to talk about? Francie Jain 07:42 - 07:49 Or like, why don't we all just do it? Why do we have to? Exactly, what is the problem? Here's the problem. Francie Jain 07:50 - 08:15 I think humans, there's this classic thing where we know what it means and we know that it's important and that's awesome. But there's a difference between what we know intellectually and what we do. And I think that it's kind of like you can take a test and you can be the world's second greatest expert in psychological safety. and still be really crappy at communication and conflict resolution and leadership. Francie Jain 08:16 - 08:34 And I think what's coming out of that is it's not enough to know that it's important and it's a group dynamic. It's what's coming out of it is that people need to practice. I think to learn on the job, I think to learn in like the context of work and what it looks like in work and what the lack of psychological safety looks like in work. Spencer Horn 08:35 - 08:47 So there's this statistic that I've heard psychologists say that worldwide self-awareness is from 10 to 15%. Do you think that's a correlation that we have a lack Francie Jain 08:47 - 08:47 of Spencer Horn 08:48 - 08:51 psychological safety because we're just unaware? Francie Jain 08:52 - 09:06 Yeah, I think, listen, like, even me, like, I spend all my time doing this. I'm like, you know, I'm probably a really crappy communicator also, you know what I mean? I'm not saying that I'm good at it. I'm just saying that, like, it's super cool that, like, people who are good at it, like, end up leading these incredible teams. Francie Jain 09:07 - 09:36 And so, like, I always, like, joke that, like, my origin story is when I read about, there was a New York Times article that was kind of, like, an exclusive on Google talking about their project Aristotle. And basically, it was this long-term attempt to understand what the best teams at Google, and my translation of that means that teams that were like, had created, you know, high margin products, what the best teams at Google had shared. Was it, you know, race? Was it gender? Francie Jain 09:36 - 09:47 Was it location? Was it education? You know, you can think of all the millions of attributes you're trying to re-engineer. And what I, it gives me goosebumps every time I think about it, is that none of that, it didn't matter. Francie Jain 09:47 - 09:58 The key thing was whether the group felt there was a high degree of psychological safety. And so then what I always say to people is, this is what that means. Yes, I'm so glad you're going to do that. I was Spencer Horn 09:58 - 10:00 going to ask you, describe it, define it. Francie Jain 10:01 - 10:11 Of course, I'm psychologically safe. I would never, I would never. But really, it's like the opposites are groupthink is the one one end. So that's like a lack of psychological safety, probably. Francie Jain 10:11 - 10:27 That's what it looks like, right? Impact is groupthink, where psychological safety is like, you might say, Oh, my gosh, I see an error in the spreadsheet. And the boss says, Oh, thank you so much for pointing that out. That really helped me out because we want to be really accurate here. Francie Jain 10:28 - 10:53 The opposite would be You see the error, but you're like, I'm not going to mention it to the boss because there's no upside for me in telling him. I'll either just be blamed for it. It was my fault somehow, or he'll yell at me in the meeting, or I'll be like persona non grata for two weeks, and maybe it's bonus time, and so I don't want to rock the boat. So let's just say you work at Google, and you notice an error in a spreadsheet. Francie Jain 10:53 - 11:13 That's fine. Probably life will go on at Google. However, if you notice an error in a hospital and you don't say anything because of a blame dynamic, people die. And so the other thing that gives me goosebumps is like the original research by Dr. Amy Edmonston, who's now a Harvard Business School professor. Francie Jain 11:14 - 11:33 And her original research basically, and she's accredited. I secretly think that she was working on the Project Aristotle with Google. But that's not, I've never read that she was, but I wouldn't be surprised. And so her original research, what she found was that when psychological safety is high, there are actually more errors reported. Francie Jain 11:33 - 11:45 And it feels like counterintuitive, but it makes perfect sense when you think about it. Because yeah, if like, you know, like that's a positive to like eliminate errors, you have to bring them up in order to like fix the processes. Spencer Horn 11:45 - 11:46 I've Francie Jain 11:46 - 11:47 seen that study and Spencer Horn 11:47 - 11:48 it's so fascinating. Francie Jain 11:49 - 12:08 It is really, truly fascinating because you think it should go down and it's not that, and probably errors probably do go down. It's probably like, there's like probably a peak, right? Like errors probably go up and then processes improve so that errors go down. And, but you have to kind of like bring it up and have a culture of can do or fix the process or it's not you, it's the process. Francie Jain 12:08 - 12:26 Think broader, think, you know, longer term. And I think, There's just, I mean, I think in a lot of interactions, everyone has it. I mean, I'm not saying I'm perfect, but like, you know, if you lead more with ego and fear instead of kind of like long-term and results and like excellence, that's kind of what drives it too. Christian Napier 12:28 - 13:07 So I'm really loving this conversation, Francie. One of the questions that kind of popped in my mind is as you're explaining this, it comes back to what you said earlier, which is we may understand this intellectually, but it may not be put into practice. And I'm curious from your perspective and the experience that you've had working with organizations in your career, what are some of the big reasons why it's not put into practice? You can read books, you can watch TED Talks, you can have consultants come and tell you a bunch of great things. Christian Napier 13:07 - 13:30 You can have a speaker come and keynote. and it might sound great, and then it just doesn't get implemented. So I'm curious, when you're working with organizations, what are some of the barriers that are preventing organizations from actually implementing the practices that would lead to, and policies that would lead to greater psychological safety? Francie Jain 13:30 - 14:02 Yeah, and I'm going to say bring up another business term that I'm sure is not foreign to you guys, but I think it probably has to do with silos. Ultimately, if you want to do a really good job with this and make sure that your organization's culture is really living a culture of trying to develop psychological safety, you have to measure it and get the data and get different people involved. So in some ways, it really has to start from the C-suite. And it can't be like a learning and development person. Francie Jain 14:02 - 14:21 This month is psychological safety month. It's like you have to live it, live and breathe this way of being and way of developing yourself and looking for the feedback. And so I do know examples where it's worked. And so I have this incredible case study to share with you guys. Francie Jain 14:21 - 14:57 But I think you really have to be hyper focused on the measurement of it and the KPIs and tying change to psychological safety and comparing it across teams and groups and looking at the organization as a whole. So it's like individual sort of KPIs, but then also organizational and like operational KPIs. And, and it's all related. It's just somehow I think there's just generally, in my sense, like a sort of skepticism that human behavior can impact dollars and numbers. Francie Jain 14:57 - 15:22 But I think that that can be dispelled with data. But I just don't think enough people either have the power at their organizations to push it through who know this information, Or people are just have other, you know, bigger fish to fry. And I think of it like kind of like any kind of investment, you know, people say, oh, you know, we invested $10 million in our IT infrastructure. Okay, well, it's the same thing. Francie Jain 15:23 - 15:43 You want to invest, you're gonna invest that much money in like your cloud, you probably want to invest that much money in your people as well. And so, and it's never going to be easy because investment by definition, right, is almost like a stoppage of work and like a redirection. But that's what it's going to take for these organizations to do it. And I think there's also a little bit, again, of leading with fear and leading with ego. Francie Jain 15:43 - 15:51 Like, what if you're wrong? And what if you look like an idiot? And what if it doesn't work? Whereas you can just keep doing what you're doing, and no one's going to call you an idiot. Spencer Horn 16:03 - 16:23 There are some personalities that being called an idiot matters more to than others. I love what you're talking about. It's so true that we want to minimize risk, right? And there's positions in our organization. Spencer Horn 16:23 - 16:48 Their whole job is to minimize risk for the organization. And it would seem like reducing challenges or errors is a way of reducing risk. But I think this idea of not getting yelled at or called names, that's part of the mentality of a risk that we want to personally avoid getting uncomfortable. And I'm glad you brought up the fact that there is ROI. Spencer Horn 16:48 - 17:24 And I want you to talk about it since you brought it up. We were talking a little bit before the show started about studies done by the late Harvard researcher, psychologist, David McClellan is his name. And he specifically found, yes, look him up, that one third of corporate revenues can be tied to, through his experiments, to the climate of the business, of which psychological safety adds to the climate. I believe there's a correlation there, right? Spencer Horn 17:24 - 18:03 So that's a big number. And like you said, we're so often focused on investing in IT or bricks and mortar, hard skill training, which is really, really important. But that's how much of revenues and success are a big part of just how people are living within the space, how the system behaves. So why don't you, could you walk us through, there's this 4,000 employee hospital case study. Spencer Horn 18:04 - 18:05 Let's, for those Francie Jain 18:05 - 18:06 who are, you know, we've Spencer Horn 18:06 - 18:13 been teasing them a little bit. I know it's early in the show, but I think we have a lot to talk about. Let's get to some hard data. Francie Jain 18:14 - 18:54 Yeah, so one of the coaches on my platform, his name is Dr. Tommy Thomas, he actually his dad, his father, Mr. Tom, Dr. Thomas, I think he's a Dr. Thomas, too, created a system called opposite strengths, and doesn't explicitly talk about psychological safety, but it's basically you know, talking to people about their inclinations, and how they behave, and what kind of the opposite is meaning like, if my, if I'm really inclined to be process oriented, maybe if I work with somebody who's inclined to shoot from the hip, when we combine our strengths, we get a really good product. And so that's kind of a lot of what he does with organizations. Francie Jain 18:55 - 19:15 And so his framework, and content was brought to, I think it was I think it was a 4,000 person hospital, 4,000 employee hospital in Colorado. It's called Poudre Valley Health Center. And they've since merged with University of Colorado Health. But they had a 24% employee turnover rate. Francie Jain 19:16 - 19:40 And that's above the sort of national hospital average of 20%. And so they were in, I believe, Colorado Springs, and which is, if you're an American or not an American, it's like, you know, it's smaller than Denver. It's relatively, you know, it's a medium-sized, probably American city. But that can become tricky if you're having to recruit constantly and losing a quarter of your employees every year. Francie Jain 19:40 - 20:15 And by the way, there's a shortage in America of nurses, which also, by the way, my assumption is that the nurse turnover rate's higher than 24% in this scenario. And so the CEO said to himself and to his colleagues, this is just unsustainable, and we ought to find a way out of it, because 24% is this huge drag on our operations. And so what they did is they brought in this content from Dr. Thomas, and they taught in small groups of cohorts of like 25 people each. And they started with the CEO and the C-suite, and then kind of worked down from there. Francie Jain 20:15 - 20:31 And And what happened is they did this training, it was all completely opt in. And it was over nine or 10 years. And what's crazy about it is so they started at 24% turnover, what we talked about. And every year, they brought in this training. Francie Jain 20:31 - 20:43 And every year since the training that started, their employee turnover rate would drop one to 2% each year. So you can like think about a chart. So here's 24% turnover. And then like every year, it's just dropping a little bit, dropping a little bit, dropping a little bit. Francie Jain 20:44 - 20:57 Then after nine years, they got to 4% employee turnover, which is very low. As I said, 20% is the industry average. And so when I first heard that, I thought, wow, yay, good for them. That's so awesome. Francie Jain 20:57 - 21:12 24% turnover, that must be wonderful. But actually, it gets better because the CEO had quantified what that meant. And what it meant was a difference of $32 million a year, a year. So it wasn't like that whole nine years they saved $32 million. Francie Jain 21:13 - 21:37 It was like each year, you know, after year nine, they woke up with $32 million a year extra in their bank account. And the other point of this is to say, there is a cost to employee turnover. Right, even if you are average with your industry, whatever industry that is, there's a cost. And I don't understand why people run around and they want to be above average and everything except for turnover. Francie Jain 21:38 - 21:49 Like, wouldn't you want to be above average in turnover as well? And so one of the things that this study brings up is the fact that they're not paying people more for them to stick around. They're not paying anything extra, in fact. right? Francie Jain 21:49 - 22:05 So it's not the strategy is not overpay your employees or pay or whatever bonuses or whatever you want to call it. The strategy is help people work better with each other and have there be a culture of learning and support and collaboration and have it be more balanced than it had been. And that's why people stay. Christian Napier 22:15 - 22:48 So I love the case study and I have a lot of questions, but the first one I'll start out with is hearing your recounting of this story. The impetus for this was, I can't remember if it was the CEO or someone in the C-suite saying, hey, we have a hair on fire problem here with turnover and it's not sustainable. Is that what it takes to introduce psychological safety? I mean, does Francie Jain 22:49 - 22:49 a business Christian Napier 22:49 - 23:23 have to get to a point where they feel like they're having an existential crisis before they look at it? Or is it possible for an organization to look, be a little bit more proactive about it? I mean, do you have to, is it, okay, we got to call in the, city fire department to come take care of this thing? Or can we address it beforehand and not wait until we have the existential crisis? Christian Napier 23:23 - 23:29 And then the second part of that question is, for this to work, does it really need to be driven by a C-suite? You know? Francie Jain 23:29 - 23:33 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those are great questions. I mean, I don't, I wish I knew that for sure. Francie Jain 23:34 - 23:57 For sure. The answer is, I think, you know, my assumption is that the reason it takes a crisis is because they tried everything else and nothing was working. And so they're like, you know what, let's actually try this thing called culture and collaboration and see if that makes a difference. And so again, if you're a little bit fearful of trying something new, maybe you can say to the board, hey, listen, we've tried these 10 interventions. Francie Jain 23:57 - 24:06 They didn't work. Let's try this thing. I'm not super confident about it, but other people like it a lot. And again, I suspect that's what's happening. Francie Jain 24:07 - 24:29 But I also think that when people are pushed up, pushed into a corner, I think they're more creative. One of the things that as you're speaking made me think of is a lot of I think what people do is they don't say let's work on the culture. They say, you know what, let's just bring in travel nurses. And that is this whole area that I'm fascinated with. Francie Jain 24:29 - 24:59 Travel nurses, if you don't know, get paid 1.5 or two times the rate of nurses, and they have like three or four month or six month contracts. It's wildly expensive to hire travel nurses. And hospitals do it. And, um, and I think again, like I haven't seen all the details of that case study, like that kind of granularity was not shared, but I suspect that some of the savings in that 32 million per year is travel nurse costs. Spencer Horn 25:02 - 25:14 Wow. And that's, um, I'm surprised that so many hospitals actually employ travel nurses. And that's a frustration because. They don't have the same level of training. Spencer Horn 25:14 - 25:27 That adds more to the errors and the issues. And they're trying to save costs by not having full-time employees. And it just puts more burden on the employees that are actually there staying. And then they're resentful. Spencer Horn 25:28 - 25:31 And that adds to the turnover of the people who are actually staying. Francie Jain 25:31 - 25:48 100%. And that's the whole thing. It's like, there's so many downstream problems with it, which is not to say that that's not a really valuable tool in like the toolkit. I think it really is because like someone was explaining to me what one of the use cases for travel nurses, let's say, there's an employee that you really need to get rid of. Francie Jain 25:48 - 25:59 And they're just, you know, they're whatever, for whatever reason, they're causing unsafe conditions, let's say. And they're going to be short a body. So what are you going to do? You know what I mean? Francie Jain 26:00 - 26:23 And so that's a good use case where you're like, this person needs to not be here. And we need to replace a body with that person. That's a really good use case. But I do think that there's a little bit of an addiction of not having to think through cultural the cultural component of having short term people and like the burden of training them on others, because by the time they get up to speed, then they leave, and you're Francie Jain 26:23 - 26:27 paying them double the cost of the people who are training them. Spencer Horn 26:28 - 26:57 Yes, and I can speak to that because I have two daughters who are nurses who have actually experienced that. I have actually a cost of turnover worksheet. And I'm just going to, just for our listeners, highlight a few things. So for example, a manager's, let's say, average annual compensation, $100,000, benefits 25%, so that's about $125,000 cost. Spencer Horn 26:57 - 27:16 You've got expenses that, I mean, if you look at what it costs, you've got separation costs, you've got recruitment costs, you have replacement training costs, you have lost productivity costs, you have new hire costs. I'm just looking, I don't Francie Jain 27:16 - 27:49 want to- Lost knowledge, you know, I mean, it goes on and on and on because it becomes like, I mean, it's hard to measure this stuff, but you can see how this just steamrolls into like a huge snowball because you have people coming and going, you know, there's this really inefficiency of like understanding how the systems work. And I just, it just seems so obvious that like turnover, especially in like a life savings, like environment is just disastrous. Spencer Horn 27:49 - 28:04 Just picture you've got a bucket of revenue that you're trying to fill, and as people are turning over, you've got holes in that bucket that just keeps draining out to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per person. Francie Jain 28:04 - 28:21 I think the really fun conversation to have is always, what is the cost of turnover? Because it's impossible to quantify. But what's cool is if you ask accountants, it's anywhere from one year's salary to three years' salary. And you just multiply that by all the people that are leaving. Francie Jain 28:22 - 28:23 That's a lot of money. Speaker 4 28:23 - 28:24 And Francie Jain 28:25 - 28:36 I think one of the things that we learned in COVID is that people really want to be connected to a mission. They want to feel like what they do matters. And that is probably 99% of the reasons people work in hospitals. Right. Francie Jain 28:36 - 28:58 So all you not all you need to do. But I mean, I think the key driver for hospital people who work in hospitals is that they're like growing professionally, they're getting better, they're helping patients, you know, do a good job. And there's not a lot of like, noise on the sides of trying to do those things. And I think that was eliminating the noise. Spencer Horn 28:58 - 29:28 Let me share a real life example. So one of my daughters worked in an orthopedic ward at a local hospital during COVID. They were seeing at each nurse an average of seven patients when the safety, there's a regulation number of how many they're supposed to see based on, you know, the type of treatment or area that they're working in, and that's four. So they were, you know, what percentage of patients that they were seeing per nurse over that. Spencer Horn 29:28 - 30:02 And during COVID, they had to don and doff safety protection gear that took 25 minutes before and after each patient interaction. So they were seeing all these extra patients, they had to put on this protective gear, and they were just not able to keep up. And so what did hospital management do? Instead of listening to the concerns, they hire, like you said, traveling nurses, and they tell the nurses to manage their time better. Spencer Horn 30:02 - 30:27 Well, you just need to manage your time better. So that's an example of, you know, just, and so she quit and she went to work up at the university, Hospital University of Utah, labor and delivery, absolutely loves it. Such a difference and has just had such a great experience, but they lost a hardworking, dedicated employee because they don't care. Francie Jain 30:29 - 30:57 Yeah. And I think like, And I think that's ultimately kind of what happens with these places is that like, you have to, if you're in the admin of hospitals, I think you really need to tie the like empathy side. And also to the employee experience. I think that one of the things that again, I'm not a huge expert of this, but having talked to a bunch of nurses, one of the things I always am fascinated by in hospitals is how there's almost like outside of an operating theater, just like by being in Francie Jain 30:57 - 31:13 the hospital, like nurses are just like less than doctors. But one of the things that's crazy is to be a nurse in leadership, you have to have a PhD. So to me, that's. mean, at least the same as being a doctor, if not more, I mean, that's an incredible commitment to get a PhD. Francie Jain 31:13 - 31:41 And so I'm always surprised that there's this really, like severe hierarchy in hospitals about like, whose voices matter, because we're all human. And so that's also, I think, part of what's going on to like, in the 21st century, I think, like, hospitals are like the last, like hierarchies in America, And I think that that also impacts this whole situation because for some reason nurses are considered expendable, but yet there's a shortage of nurses. So how is that doesn't actually that make them more valuable? Francie Jain 31:42 - 31:45 So I'm confused about like how this can all work. Spencer Horn 31:45 - 32:11 One of the most high-performing children's cancer foundations, Cure for the Kids Foundation in Las Vegas, Nevada, was started by a friend of mine, nurse. And it is a phenomenal organization. And it was started by a nurse. And she is brilliant and has created this great organization, hired all the doctors. Spencer Horn 32:12 - 32:17 Yeah, you're right. I mean, they are pretty smart. Francie Jain 32:17 - 32:28 Yeah, no. And I think it's actually a really different skill set. And I think we just need to acknowledge that everyone has a role to play. It's like everyone's like a different role. Francie Jain 32:28 - 32:46 It doesn't mean that anyone's more important than anyone else. It just means it's like a different you know, opt in thing. And I don't know, I just find it fascinating. And like, the one thing is certainly like, I think the counter argument to what I'm saying is one might say, yeah, but if you're, you know, in an operating room, you have to have one, you know, person who's in charge 100%. Francie Jain 32:46 - 32:52 Right? It's crazy that you can't have a democracy in an operating room. You just need to have like a top down. It's a Spencer Horn 32:52 - 32:54 coercive leadership style. Francie Jain 32:54 - 33:05 And everyone wants that. I think everyone agrees with that because like how many times when you try to do something and too much input is just like making you crazy and you can't focus. And I 100% get it. And again, lies are at stake. Francie Jain 33:06 - 33:27 But I think that beyond that, it's just really important that like we all remember that everyone has so much to contribute, even if they've had fewer years of education, but everyone has seen different areas of life and has different experiences. And so it's like, it's just valuable for all the input you can get on anything to have more input. I Christian Napier 33:27 - 34:00 mean. So I've got a question and it kind of, it came to me when you were talking about the COVID experience. So A lot of the examples that have been given about psychological safety or the lack of it are primarily related to internal policies and processes and so on and so forth. But COVID was an external Spencer Horn 34:00 - 34:01 thing. Christian Napier 34:01 - 34:37 So COVID was an external thing that ended up influencing how everybody operated And since then, we've had a series of aftershocks, for lack of a better term. I work in the public sector. There's been significant disruption in federal, state, and local government due to changes in funding, the advent of AI. There's been a huge amount of layoffs, especially in the tech sector, which is also where I operate. Christian Napier 34:37 - 34:49 People are already on edge. They're wondering, am I still going to have a job? Or is the person next to me going to have a job? And if they're not, am I going to have to assume all their responsibilities? Christian Napier 34:50 - 35:45 So there's a lot of uncertainty that is caused by external factors. And I'm curious in the work that you do or the people that you work with do, how they can address that as well because psychological safety, maybe starting to use a sports term, already down 20 points in the fourth quarter in a basketball game because of everything that's going on outside of the workplace. And then you have whatever's going on inside the workplace, like how do you coach organizations to address the realities of what's going on outside and still make sure that people feel like they have a safe environment within the organization? Francie Jain 35:46 - 36:13 Okay, this is a great question, because I just actually did a LinkedIn Live with, a friend on LinkedIn and we were talking about this exact thing. Her business is automation of like law firms or any kind of repeat processes. And she was saying that when she starts to speak to employees about the automation, they are terrified of speaking to her. And so a lot of times they have this like binary work where it's either right or it's wrong. Francie Jain 36:14 - 36:35 they're gonna get the numbers right, and it's great, and everyone moves forward, or they get the numbers wrong, and it's a huge error and problem. And so they like to automate that stuff. And what she's noticed is that what the conversation should be is when you start to bring in automation is to say to people, this is actually like giving you more ability to find what you want to do and like to elevate your job and to use more creativity in your job. Francie Jain 36:36 - 36:53 not have everyone be relying on you to make sure the ticking and tying is 100% accurate every time. Let a machine do that. What we can't replicate is the creativity. And I think that's really the way to see the AI stuff. Francie Jain 36:53 - 37:08 And I think the other way to see it is just to remember, I mean, the only constant is change. And maybe your job won't be the same in a year. Maybe you won't be there in a year. Maybe it's because something really, you'll have developed other skills that are really valuable and that will get you a different job. Francie Jain 37:08 - 37:29 Or maybe you'll find that you can do those really valuable, interesting, creative skills at your current place. And I think that like, that's the whole, that's what's happening with AI is like people are starting to realize when you can use it and when you can't use it. And Like I, for instance, like just with my own use of AI, I don't, I was never not hiring people. Actually, that's not true. Francie Jain 37:30 - 37:48 I use my lawyers less with AI. Um, but that was not a full-time position. I saved my time, time writing emails and other writing by having chat GPT, correct my writing. Um, there's a lot of stuff that I do that just makes me more productive, but it has no effect on like other people. Francie Jain 37:49 - 38:05 And I think. That's where I am right now and maybe other organizations are. So that's one thing. The last thing I'll say is we also have to remember that there's a benefit for publicly traded companies to tell the market that they're laying off people due to AI. Francie Jain 38:09 - 38:24 That may not be the case, but they were in the past few months rewarded from the market by this assumption of efficiency by using AI instead of employees. And I think that's something like we also just have a little bit of skepticism towards. Spencer Horn 38:39 - 38:47 Are you hearing examples of companies that have done those AI layoffs and are now regretting it and saying, we need to backtrack because... No, Francie Jain 38:47 - 39:05 no, I haven't. But I was fascinated when Amazon got all that press about the layoffs due to AI, and I started doing the numbers. And like, they lay off 5% every year anyway. So like, it, it wasn't really that much different than what they always do. Francie Jain 39:05 - 39:13 So that's when I started to get really weird, weirded out. Cause I was like, well, you always do this, you guys, but like, so now it's AI, but it wasn't, you know, is that like a Spencer Horn 39:13 - 39:15 Jack Welch kind of thing that they lay Francie Jain 39:15 - 39:16 off? So Spencer Horn 39:16 - 39:19 I, you Francie Jain 39:20 - 39:38 know, I mean, maybe it's due to AI, but you know, maybe not, I don't know, but it just seems like that's the, that's the normal thing that they do. And I think that that's. After I did that math and I realized that I was just like, this whole thing is such a game. So, you know, I think that people read the headlines, it makes them nervous. Francie Jain 39:38 - 39:44 And you just have to remember, like, life is always changing. We never have certainty about the future. And Spencer Horn 39:44 - 39:45 we're making AI the scapegoat now. Francie Jain 39:46 - 39:57 Yeah, and like, see, see this as an opportunity to like, like, develop yourself. Like, what do you want to do with AI? Like, do you want to be good at using it? Or do you want to say, yeah, it can't really help me? Francie Jain 39:58 - 40:09 Or do you want to say, I want to actually be more creative. I want to paint, or I want to, you know, or I want to be more creative about how we can do something in the office. I think, like, it's an opportunity for employees, like, pitch things, I think, to businesses. Spencer Horn 40:10 - 40:16 That's what you do, right, Christian? You make the state more productive. Christian Napier 40:17 - 40:26 Uh, that's our, that's our aspiration. Yeah, for sure. Um, but the psychological effects are real. They are Spencer Horn 40:26 - 40:26 real, Christian Napier 40:27 - 40:44 you know, so you're right. Amazon baby telling a story to increase its, uh, share price, right? Like, um, so that's, that's fine. But the, the downstream impacts of that narrative are significant. Christian Napier 40:44 - 40:52 People are getting really, really worked up about this kind of stuff. They're getting very nervous about it. So the point Francie Jain 40:52 - 40:53 that I was trying to Christian Napier 40:53 - 40:57 make is that people are already coming into the workforce or into the workplace Francie Jain 40:58 - 40:59 on edge. Christian Napier 41:00 - 41:57 And so All the more reason, I think, to create a place of psychological safety while people are there because quite honestly, they need some relief from this fear and uncertainty that is really amplified, like you said, Francie, by organizations themselves and then the media. And I'm not talking necessarily just about legacy media, but all of the social media platforms really are, you know, the algorithms are tuned to amplify those things as well. And so I was just curious to get your take on how even more important it is for organizations to establish psychological safety in this chaotic environment we're all living in. Francie Jain 41:58 - 42:36 Yeah, I think, and I think that, like, it would be so cool if leaders of all organizations are able to say, listen, like, we're all exploring how this can help, how AI can help us, and we're just not exactly sure how we're going to use it yet. And I think you know, that sort of starts the conversation. And I think there's also this thing in like, the workplace, which I hate, right, which is a sense of like, these, like managers have to keep their cards so close to the vest, because if you're going to fire someone, like, God forbid they leave before you fire them, or you know, or, you know, God forbid, everyone's like really honest at what's going on in the place. Francie Jain 42:36 - 43:03 And so that always just bums me out because I just feel like it's just so like lacking in humanity to really be like clear with people about what's happening. But I really do understand like the business forces and the legal forces about that, but it always sucks from like the employee perspective when you're really not being leveled with what's happening. And they sort of are thinking about their organization as like, like the leadership versus like everyone Spencer Horn 43:05 - 43:22 else. Francie, you know, you gave the example of the hotel. I want to maybe put you on the spot a little bit. What were some of the small actions that the training helped management, the employees do that made the biggest difference? Spencer Horn 43:22 - 43:28 You know, you talked about the opposite strengths, but what were some of the things that they were able to actually do that maybe our listeners could, Francie Jain 43:28 - 43:33 could. Yeah. It's a great question. Um, so here's an example. Francie Jain 43:33 - 43:58 Like I don't have the actual examples from that organization, but having spoken to the coach, Tommy Thomas, he's talked to me about what that looks like. And so it's stuff like, okay, here's one example. You are really process driven and you really want to make sure that everything a, b, c, and d that is, is checked off before you complete a project. Um, but it takes you a long time to do that. Francie Jain 43:58 - 44:32 And if you collaborate with somebody, well, actually, first of all, by the way, seeing that, like having that view in life, and then having to deal with someone on some other part of the hospital where you have to coordinate, who is much more of like a trial by error person can lead to huge conflict, right? Because each person thinks the other one's completely crazy. And then maybe one or maybe both of those people will do the, like almost try to avoid that person because it's really hard to, complete their role, their jobs. Francie Jain 44:33 - 44:55 And so that's like the status quo. But then if you're able to see like, oh, wow, actually, when that person sort of does trial and error, that really helps me because it helps me get unstuck. And I'm not ruminating about how to get from A to D. I'm actually solving it like live and with other people. Francie Jain 44:56 - 45:10 So that's an example I often think about, which is finding this intermediate balance where it's a collaboration as opposed to working in silos. And I think it really cuts across all these different areas. Spencer Horn 45:20 - 45:39 Well, that topic really fascinates me because I actually speak about it a lot. I actually have a keynote called Stronger Than Your Strengths. The whole idea is strength-based leadership causes a problem when we ignore our blind spots, our opposite strengths, if you will. I call it flexible authenticity, right? Spencer Horn 45:39 - 46:11 We have this idea of what it means to be authentic and we get stuck in a style of leadership that we're not able to adapt to different circumstances because we feel like it's uncomfortable, therefore inauthentic. And developing opposite strengths and growing, there's really nothing more authentic than growing and developing. I think there's a lot of barriers for people learning how to develop those opposite strengths. So I'm just really, I'm excited when I hear that because I don't hear many people talking about that the way I do. Spencer Horn 46:12 - 46:25 It's a little bit contrarian to the world that tells us just focus on your strengths and it'll pull up all your weaknesses. And I'm like, really? That's like if I practice my golf swing with my driver, magically I'll be better at my putter. Francie Jain 46:26 - 46:36 Right, right. Well, that's the whole thing with this coach too, is he's like, it's not about strengths and weaknesses. And he's like, that's the whole, that's the problem. It's not like a dichotomy of what you're good at, what you're bad at. Francie Jain 46:36 - 46:50 It's a, they're just different ways of being. And some people, you know, it's like one of his, you might've seen this before, right? When they say like, put your hands together, clasp your hands, just as you would naturally do it. And then, okay, now what's on the top? Francie Jain 46:50 - 47:03 Okay, my left thumb is on the top. Now clasp your hands so your right thumb is on the top. And he said, okay, that's what psychological safety is. It just means that you're trying a new, a different way than you normally would do it. Francie Jain 47:03 - 47:12 And it may be a little bit harder for you to do it, but doesn't, there's no like right or wrong. There's no value judgment. It's just something that's different. And I think about that all the time. Francie Jain 47:12 - 47:27 And I think exactly like, I think this is all really about flexibility. Cause you can see how, if you're really process driven, you would be so short and annoyed by somebody who's experience driven. who wants to just try it out and see what happens. And you could see that could lead to a lot of clashes and then also avoidance. Spencer Horn 47:28 - 47:31 Because they're not afraid of failure, but other people are. Francie Jain 47:32 - 47:43 Right, or just like, you're like so locked into like, I know this is the right way to do it. I'm minimizing risk because I have a process. And someone else is like, I'm minimizing risk because I'm testing my assumptions. I mean, Spencer Horn 47:44 - 47:46 there's no... I'm going to out my partner, Francie Jain 47:47 - 47:47 Christian, Spencer Horn 47:47 - 48:07 here a little bit. When we started this podcast almost six years ago, You know, Christian is, he's, he's so brilliant as you've already discovered. He's so smart. He has the most thoughtful questions, but I'm, I'm a little less prepared and just ready to kind of go with whatever comes and Christian's like, okay, well, what's our format? Spencer Horn 48:07 - 48:17 How are we going to do this? And now he just shows up and whatever someone says, he just asked the most brilliant question, but it didn't start out that way. Did it Christian? Christian Napier 48:18 - 48:37 No, because I like to feel prepared. I feel psychological safety in preparation. And I've made him very. But actually, this conversation, and I'm going to keep this to my last question because we're going to get to lightning round and the fun stuff here at the end. Christian Napier 48:37 - 49:17 But listening to this conversation, sometimes people think of psychological safety as, Freedom from confrontation like hey, I don't have to do that. It's gonna be no triggers No triggers, but that's not the impression that I'm getting here I've heard you talk about things like productive conflict Spencer you talk about this quite a bit the analogy that came to my mind actually is is music right if if Everybody is in harmony all the time then it gets boring. So in music, what do you need? Christian Napier 49:17 - 49:35 You need dissonance. So you need dissonance through diminished chords, or a minor chord here, or a key change, or something like that. But ultimately, the satisfaction comes through resolution. Ultimately, the dissonance resolves. Christian Napier 49:36 - 50:19 And so I'm curious to hear your take here, Francie, notion of dissonance in an organization, why it's necessary, and how to incorporate it into something that ultimately results in harmony for the organization. So it sounds to me like it's counterproductive on the surface, like, hey, for us to actually be harmonious, we need dissonance. We have to have it. But its placement needs to be strategic and it can't just be dissonance all the time, right? Christian Napier 50:20 - 50:22 And ultimately it needs to lead to a resolution. Francie Jain 50:23 - 50:43 Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think that what it is, is that dissonance and conflict lead to personal growth. they lead to greater understanding. And I love what you said about some people think psychological safety means that they feel psychologically safe. Francie Jain 50:43 - 51:05 But actually, psychological safety is only a group term and only applies to like how people feel within a group. And so that's like a misunderstanding. But I think that what people want is they don't want to be yelled at, they want to work in concert with others. and they wanna do meaningful work and be connected to the reason why they chose something in the first place. Francie Jain 51:05 - 51:28 So I just think whenever I hear people who don't want to have conflict or don't wanna be bothered, that's actually like, it's like, what's the word? It's not allowing personal growth. Because when something's uncomfortable, it doesn't mean it's wrong. It just means it's not what you normally do. Francie Jain 51:28 - 51:42 lot of times, and even in my life, just yesterday that I read, I'm always trying to figure out like, okay, this feels really terrible. Like, is this because I'm growing or just because I'm doing something wrong? Or is this because it's wrong. And these are many reasons to feel uncomfortable. Francie Jain 51:42 - 51:53 And I think that's like kind of some of the stuff we need to wrestle with with our gut, like just because you're having a gut reaction, it could mean a bunch of different things, especially if it's uncommon for you to feel that way. Spencer Horn 52:03 - 52:36 Stanford psychiatrist Anna Lembke talks in her book, Dopamine Nation, about this idea of when we don't have, when life is too easy, when we avoid conflict, when you think about how hard sometimes we have to work for our comfort. I mean, we have microwaves, we have, little Roombas that can clean our floor. We have, you know, I go through this place where I just, I drive up to the car wash and it reads my license plate. I go in, my car is clean. Spencer Horn 52:37 - 52:48 We don't have to struggle for a lot of things. We've got so much entertainment available to us. So much is easy. We can eat any food type we want and don't even have to cook it ourselves. Spencer Horn 52:48 - 53:08 And yet we're more anxious and frustrated than ever. And what she says is when we don't have a lot of challenges in our life, the brain stops producing dopamine and oxytocin, those feel-good drugs. But when we have to do difficult things, think about climbing a mountain, what it feels like when you get to the top. There's this euphoria. Spencer Horn 53:08 - 53:41 When we do challenging things, like do something that's uncomfortable, have a difficult conversation, and we've completed it, we actually feel this sense of relief and pride and accomplishment. And our brains reward us when we do those things. So there's great benefit of obviously sticking with our strengths and doing things that motivate us, but there's also huge benefit that comes from doing the difficult thing. And our brains, our bodies are actually designed to get us to do those difficult things because of the exact reason you just said. Spencer Horn 53:42 - 54:00 That's where personal growth comes from. That's where physical growth comes from, the championship mentality is I've got to put more weight on and create more resistance. And when we do that, our body responds and makes us stronger, more resilient, more powerful, more thoughtful, more able. Francie Jain 54:02 - 54:24 Yeah. So there's this one coach, another coach I work with who I love. His name is Dr. Steven Long, and he basically, he's an organizational psychologist, and he came up with this whole theory, which is like, how to understand people that outperform. So he basically did his whole dissertation on kids who played football, whose talents and suggest how successful they would become. Francie Jain 54:24 - 54:41 And the classic case is Tom Brady. Or, you know, like Steph Curry or, you know, Michael Jordan, right. There's always these examples of these people who like, we're not crazy talented as like young people that something happened, right? Like how did they go a heads and shoulders above everyone at their peers? Francie Jain 54:42 - 55:01 And so that's basically what his research is. And so I think about it all the time because that, that if you'd like to still that mindset, it really is just obsession with getting better. And it all costs. And so it's like, you know, you hear criticism, you're like, Oh, that's a that's a, you know, like a breadcrumb. Francie Jain 55:02 - 55:30 Okay, well, if I get better at that, what that guy said, I did wrong, like, maybe I'll be better tomorrow. And seeing like, I'm seeing all these negatives as a positive, it's like glass half full, right? It's like, Oh, right, I didn't remember to, you know, go for that two mile run this today, I'll put that on my calendar to make sure I have a two mile run every week, instead of just once a month, or, you know, I mean, you start to like, get organized and really see criticism or conflict as an opportunity to learn about what other people are doing. Francie Jain 55:30 - 55:40 And it's kind of like an experiment. And I think that it's not the way I normally think either. I had to learn all that stuff. And it's not easy. Spencer Horn 55:40 - 55:41 Definitely not how I think, yeah. Francie Jain 55:41 - 55:49 Everyone wants to just be a genius where things come easily. And they're like, yeah, it's great. But most people aren't like that. And that's somewhere along the track. Francie Jain 55:50 - 55:56 Different person. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, even if that weren't to be the case, you might be really depressed, right? Francie Jain 55:56 - 56:11 Because everything is always, you've always gotten everything you wanted. You never actually had to like work for something or set a goal or try and fail and try tomorrow the next day. Like you were saying, like climb a mountain. I was thinking, I'm sure there are many times where people have a goal to climb a mountain and like, they just can't do it the first time. Francie Jain 56:12 - 56:25 That happens. You know, and so maybe it's the second time, maybe it's the third time, like, what can you do in your training to make it more successful the next time you try? And like, instead of just saying, well, I don't think I can do it. Like, that's just a pipe dream. Francie Jain 56:25 - 56:26 Why even have that goal? Christian Napier 56:32 - 56:36 All right, Spencer, we got to get to the lightning round. I can't believe it. We've gone almost an hour. Spencer Horn 56:37 - 56:44 Yes, here we go. Are you ready, Francie? I'm ready. What's one word that describes great workplace culture? Francie Jain 56:56 - 56:56 Questions. Spencer Horn 56:57 - 57:01 Excellent. Tech upgrade or trust upgrade? What moves the needle more? Francie Jain 57:02 - 57:14 Hmm. Well, I think we would know what we ought to say. I think I'll go with trust. I mean, it's, I find those two kind of hand in hand, but yeah, I think ultimately it's like the people are driving this whole thing. Francie Jain 57:14 - 57:15 I think you have to start with people. Spencer Horn 57:15 - 57:20 Amy Cuddy will say trust, right? Most underrated leadership skill. Francie Jain 57:23 - 57:23 Empathy. Spencer Horn 57:25 - 57:29 One metric every HR leader should track, but probably doesn't. Francie Jain 57:30 - 57:33 Ooh. Don't turn it over. Spencer Horn 57:36 - 57:40 A leadership mistake you've learned the most from. Oh, Francie Jain 57:41 - 57:48 God. Oh, this is evergreen. If you have a problem on email, call the person. Spencer Horn 57:51 - 57:54 That's right. Best advice you've ever received about managing Francie Jain 57:54 - 58:08 people. I think it's, you know, bring people along in the vision. Spencer Horn 58:09 - 58:14 When you hear psychological safety, what's the first image that comes to mind? Francie Jain 58:15 - 58:17 Dr. Amy Edmondson, her face. Spencer Horn 58:19 - 58:21 What energizes you most about your work at Francie Jain 58:21 - 58:34 TerraWatt? This is all, like, available to everyone. It's like, I just, I'm fascinated by that. Like, this is all out there. Francie Jain 58:34 - 58:42 And like I am, you know, creating a business to sort of like help get it out there. I just find it so fascinating that it's like sitting out here in plain sight and no one's really doing it. Spencer Horn 58:44 - 58:47 Most surprising result you've seen from a coaching intervention. Francie Jain 58:49 - 59:05 Hmm. Well, we did, um, there was, we did one, like a one day session with the hospital. Um, and. think the thing that like I almost started crying like it wasn't even meant to be kind of people sharing emotional stories. Francie Jain 59:05 - 59:26 It was just kind of talking about like, you know, it was effectively psychological safety. I mean, it's talking about like your resort, like your, you know, your inclinations, and how to kind of be flexible. And someone in the middle of the whole thing was like, Well, I don't mean to snap at people. How do I get better? Francie Jain 59:26 - 59:37 at like talking to somebody under a stressful situation. And I just thought that was so beautiful. I mean, we weren't even remotely talking about that. It was, you know, talking about like really more about just like mindset or something. Francie Jain 59:37 - 59:45 I thought it was just so beautiful because the person was really sitting there thinking like, wow, this could help me. Like this could be impactful at people around me. Spencer Horn 59:46 - 59:51 Excellent. Last one, complete the sentence. Teams thrive when leaders... Francie Jain 59:55 - 59:59 Um... Engage. Christian Napier 1:00:01 - 1:00:01 All Spencer Horn 1:00:01 - 1:00:04 right, Christian. Christian Napier 1:00:04 - 1:00:19 I love it. I mean, that's one of the favorite words from one of my heroes, Captain Jean-Luc Picard, right? Engage. So that's a great note to end on, Francie. Christian Napier 1:00:19 - 1:00:39 Thank you so much for taking time to join us today. We really appreciate you sharing your expertise, your insights, If people want to learn more about Terawatt, if they want to connect with you to see how you might be able to help them or folks in your network might be able to help their organizations, what's the best way for them to do so? Francie Jain 1:00:40 - 1:01:01 Yeah, so the website is terawatt.co, no M, it's T-E-R-A-W-A-T-T, and I'm also pretty active on LinkedIn, so that's a great way to connect with me or connect with Terawatt. those are probably the main ones. And I love chatting. So I like to do podcasts. Francie Jain 1:01:01 - 1:01:17 So, you know, that's a great way of connecting. But ultimately, like I'm around, you know what I mean? Just send me an email or, you know, contact via the website. So I think that like, so much of what I like to do is just really like educate people about what's happening. Francie Jain 1:01:17 - 1:01:31 And, and I think that you can't really do that unless you engage, right? It's, I'm not trying to like serve spray this all out like droplets of water. It's really just like talking to people one by one and like letting them see that like there's a huge opportunity for everyone. Christian Napier 1:01:33 - 1:01:48 Excellent. Thank you, Francie. And Spencer, you've been helping teams become high-performing teams, help organizations develop high-performing teams for decades. If people wanna learn more about how you can help them, how should they contact Spencer Horn 1:01:48 - 1:02:01 you? Say hi on LinkedIn and I get it every day. Christian, I mean, you're helping major organizations tell their stories and create legacies for future generations. How do they find you? Christian Napier 1:02:02 - 1:02:13 Let's just throw LinkedIn in the ring once again. So yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. So again, Francie, thank you so much. Spencer, welcome back. Christian Napier 1:02:13 - 1:02:20 After so many travels, listeners and viewers, thank you for joining us. Please like and subscribe to our podcast and we'll catch you again soon.