WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.170 --> 00:00:05.370 Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where Chemical means business. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:09.720 I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:13.590 from leaders driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry. 00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:18.840 Each week we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the 00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:20.700 strategies that make an impact. 00:00:20.910 --> 00:00:21.750 Let's get started. 00:00:23.444 --> 00:00:24.914 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Welcome back to the Chemical Show. 00:00:25.964 --> 00:00:31.994 This month I am continuing on our theme around sustainability and innovation 00:00:31.994 --> 00:00:34.844 and with a number of great guests, including today's guest, who you're 00:00:34.844 --> 00:00:35.894 gonna hear a little bit more about. 00:00:36.209 --> 00:00:36.899 Very soon. 00:00:37.289 --> 00:00:41.879 If you are new to the Chemical Show, make sure that you hit the subscribe 00:00:41.879 --> 00:00:46.289 and follow button on whatever podcast player that you're, using and 00:00:46.289 --> 00:00:48.209 head over to the Chemical show.com 00:00:48.239 --> 00:00:53.069 where you can get a lot more information, including a whole writeup on our blog, 00:00:53.069 --> 00:00:54.584 more information about what we've done. 00:00:54.654 --> 00:00:58.559 It's a great place to search for past episodes 'cause again, we have 00:00:58.619 --> 00:01:00.839 over 200 episodes published in. 00:01:01.444 --> 00:01:04.324 Lots of great interviews with lots of great executives. 00:01:05.224 --> 00:01:09.454 Today I have the opportunity to speak with my friend Kendall Justin 00:01:09.454 --> 00:01:14.644 Yano, who is the founder and managing director of Growth Arc Advisors. 00:01:16.084 --> 00:01:20.734 Growth Arc and Kendall helped chemical clients and material clients find 00:01:20.794 --> 00:01:26.854 untapped growth opportunities through expertise in sales and marketing, value 00:01:26.854 --> 00:01:29.104 and growth and strategic transformation. 00:01:29.434 --> 00:01:29.824 Kendall. 00:01:30.434 --> 00:01:36.344 Comes to this with an a career of over 30 years at leading companies, including 00:01:36.935 --> 00:01:37.055 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Hmm. 00:01:37.904 --> 00:01:39.764 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: and most recently WR Grace. 00:01:39.794 --> 00:01:43.394 So we're gonna be talking about sustainability and innovation, some 00:01:43.394 --> 00:01:48.404 of the challenges, opportunities, and the new directions that we're going. 00:01:48.404 --> 00:01:51.284 So Kendall, welcome to the Chemical Show. 00:01:51.520 --> 00:01:52.510 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Victoria, thanks so much. 00:01:52.510 --> 00:01:54.130 It's great to be here with you today. 00:01:54.324 --> 00:01:55.614 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: I am so glad to have you here. 00:01:56.004 --> 00:01:57.864 Let's talk about your origin story. 00:01:57.894 --> 00:01:59.274 'cause you know, I love to start there. 00:01:59.320 --> 00:01:59.800 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:02:00.114 --> 00:02:00.384 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: what 00:02:00.670 --> 00:02:01.150 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:02:01.240 --> 00:02:01.720 Yeah. 00:02:02.334 --> 00:02:04.164 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: in chemicals and how did you 00:02:04.164 --> 00:02:05.964 get to where you are today? 00:02:06.644 --> 00:02:07.899 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: I, I think for me, I don't think there 00:02:07.899 --> 00:02:12.429 was any other place that I was gonna end up, but chemicals, and that might 00:02:12.429 --> 00:02:16.029 sound strange, but I've got chemical engineers and chemists in my family. 00:02:16.239 --> 00:02:18.249 Chemistry was a love since high school. 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:22.799 It was always gonna be a chemical play for, for me in my life, but 00:02:22.799 --> 00:02:26.639 I've spent 25 years on the commercial side of the chemical business. 00:02:27.299 --> 00:02:29.639 Uh, and I think, I think the one thing that's unique about my 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:31.949 career is I'm a generalist, right? 00:02:31.949 --> 00:02:34.649 So I've done sales and marketing, product management. 00:02:34.979 --> 00:02:38.339 I've seen a lot of different industry sectors and segments. 00:02:38.679 --> 00:02:41.829 And I've operated in a bunch of different scenarios, specialty, 00:02:41.829 --> 00:02:46.599 commodity, high growth, and even around investments, right? 00:02:46.625 --> 00:02:51.065 The one thing that I, I honed over that time, and I think that 00:02:51.065 --> 00:02:52.655 I've come to be known for, is. 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:58.250 First off, when I, when I get into a, a, an, an industry a a particular problem, 00:02:58.490 --> 00:03:03.500 it's really fundamentals analysis, going back to the fundamentals of what's 00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:07.820 going on in that particular context, and an ability to take that and read 00:03:07.820 --> 00:03:09.590 the tea leaves and do something with it. 00:03:09.920 --> 00:03:12.770 For instance, when I was at Poly One Aviant, uh, I was one of the 00:03:12.770 --> 00:03:16.130 early champions of composites of us getting into composites. 00:03:16.580 --> 00:03:17.930 That business is now. 00:03:18.350 --> 00:03:21.500 25%, almost a third of Ian's revenue. 00:03:21.569 --> 00:03:21.789 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Wow. 00:03:22.190 --> 00:03:23.690 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: And so that's the kind of, that's the 00:03:23.690 --> 00:03:25.520 kind of thing I've, I've been known for. 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:26.810 They haven't always been successes. 00:03:26.810 --> 00:03:29.540 Sometimes they've, they've been like, no, we gotta shut it down guys. 00:03:30.110 --> 00:03:31.490 Uh, but that's the thing I've done. 00:03:31.847 --> 00:03:35.327 I think part of that was because of this generalist thing, right? 00:03:35.327 --> 00:03:38.117 I've seen a lot of different places and I'm not tied, I didn't develop my 00:03:38.117 --> 00:03:40.907 intuition around, a single context. 00:03:41.277 --> 00:03:43.797 But it's also, 'cause I didn't start in commercial my first six 00:03:43.797 --> 00:03:45.627 or seven years in the industry. 00:03:45.627 --> 00:03:46.677 I was in operations. 00:03:46.677 --> 00:03:51.272 I was doing capital deployment and I did, one assignment as, as a finance analyst. 00:03:51.661 --> 00:03:51.781 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Hmm. 00:03:51.857 --> 00:03:53.537 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: So I have, I have a close 00:03:53.537 --> 00:03:55.007 tie to the technology. 00:03:55.037 --> 00:03:56.597 Again, chemistry's in my blood. 00:03:56.597 --> 00:03:59.117 I'm not gonna ever get rid of a close tie to the technology and, 00:03:59.132 --> 00:04:01.547 and, and a real understanding of what it takes operationally 00:04:01.547 --> 00:04:03.527 and from a financing standpoint. 00:04:03.601 --> 00:04:09.661 Um, And you put it all together and sort of our superpower, where we come from is. 00:04:10.336 --> 00:04:12.346 The fundamentals of business growth, right? 00:04:12.346 --> 00:04:13.966 How do you do business growth? 00:04:14.116 --> 00:04:17.806 And that's one of the reasons I decided to form, uh, form growth advisors. 00:04:17.806 --> 00:04:21.136 I, I took around when I was looking for my next, my next opportunity, 00:04:21.136 --> 00:04:24.226 and I looked at the crystal ball and, you know, you were there. 00:04:24.586 --> 00:04:28.526 Um, and I said, look, growth is gonna be tough to come by in the future. 00:04:29.036 --> 00:04:32.486 That's, that's my, my bet and leaders are gonna need help. 00:04:32.636 --> 00:04:36.416 And so we decided to go off on our own and, and specifically specialize in 00:04:36.416 --> 00:04:37.916 helping chemical leaders, with growth. 00:04:38.020 --> 00:04:38.590 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: I love that. 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:41.560 Um, and I think, I think you're right, and I think Kendall, you and I have. 00:04:41.715 --> 00:04:45.415 Some parallel experiences in our career, starting in manufacturing 00:04:45.415 --> 00:04:50.065 and projects and, and moving through a, a wide variety of just different 00:04:50.065 --> 00:04:53.455 commercial roles and manufacturing roles and, and project roles. 00:04:53.455 --> 00:04:54.535 And it gives you that 00:04:54.571 --> 00:04:54.861 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:04:55.135 --> 00:04:58.855 lens for how businesses really done. 00:04:59.240 --> 00:04:59.570 Right. 00:04:59.570 --> 00:05:00.320 Because 00:05:00.411 --> 00:05:00.701 Yeah. 00:05:00.706 --> 00:05:01.056 Yeah. 00:05:01.250 --> 00:05:02.720 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: of times it's easy to have you. 00:05:02.775 --> 00:05:06.230 If, if you stick in one space, you kind of have blinders, right? 00:05:06.230 --> 00:05:07.700 You, you only know what you 00:05:07.986 --> 00:05:08.186 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:10.840 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: The good news, bad news thing of being 00:05:10.840 --> 00:05:14.590 a generalist is, you know, a little bit about everything, which, uh, 00:05:14.650 --> 00:05:18.280 it's a great opportunity and it can also be a pain in the butt. 00:05:18.347 --> 00:05:18.527 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: yeah. 00:05:18.527 --> 00:05:20.237 I mean, that's the, that's the potential downside. 00:05:20.287 --> 00:05:24.187 The thing that I learned is as long as you stay to the fundamentals, 00:05:24.457 --> 00:05:26.257 you're always gonna figure it out, 00:05:26.316 --> 00:05:26.676 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: yeah, 00:05:26.917 --> 00:05:28.447 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: You're always gonna figure out what, 00:05:28.537 --> 00:05:30.967 how it works in this particular context. 00:05:31.147 --> 00:05:31.357 So. 00:05:31.476 --> 00:05:31.866 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Love that. 00:05:32.226 --> 00:05:36.366 So, you know, we're sitting here in the first part of 2025. 00:05:36.396 --> 00:05:39.606 our focus here today is really around sustainability and innovation 00:05:39.827 --> 00:05:40.157 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:05:40.926 --> 00:05:44.226 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: The views and discussions on sustainability 00:05:44.226 --> 00:05:46.626 have dramatically changed. 00:05:46.626 --> 00:05:46.866 Right? 00:05:46.866 --> 00:05:47.796 If we go back to the 00:05:48.082 --> 00:05:48.652 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Oh yeah. 00:05:48.876 --> 00:05:49.776 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: it was rah rah. 00:05:49.776 --> 00:05:49.956 Yeah. 00:05:49.956 --> 00:05:52.446 We're, you know, we're shooting for the moon. 00:05:52.446 --> 00:05:56.496 There was big promises, big goals, net zero, by my gosh, 00:05:56.782 --> 00:05:57.202 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yep. 00:05:57.532 --> 00:05:57.952 Yep. 00:05:58.716 --> 00:06:01.536 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Um, or 2030 or 2040, depending on where you sat. 00:06:01.986 --> 00:06:07.836 Um, and along the way we figured out it's really stinking hard. 00:06:07.976 --> 00:06:08.426 not, 00:06:08.567 --> 00:06:08.767 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: did. 00:06:08.936 --> 00:06:12.626 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: sure how we make it profitable. 00:06:12.776 --> 00:06:13.886 How do our 00:06:14.097 --> 00:06:14.387 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:06:14.606 --> 00:06:16.826 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: and it's easy to say, oh, I 00:06:16.826 --> 00:06:18.146 want a sustainable product. 00:06:18.176 --> 00:06:20.246 Oh, well, your sustainable product's gonna cost 10 times more. 00:06:20.246 --> 00:06:20.426 Well. 00:06:21.206 --> 00:06:22.106 Maybe not. 00:06:22.526 --> 00:06:23.456 Um, so, 00:06:23.597 --> 00:06:23.887 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:06:24.391 --> 00:06:28.646 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: a, a big shift and yet there is still a 00:06:28.646 --> 00:06:31.826 sustainability imperative, right? 00:06:31.826 --> 00:06:36.566 So I think there's no doubt about the fact that people wanna continue to improve 00:06:36.566 --> 00:06:38.876 the world, leave it a better place, be 00:06:38.922 --> 00:06:39.252 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:06:39.566 --> 00:06:41.006 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: of carbon and greenhouse gas 00:06:41.006 --> 00:06:43.106 emissions and all the other things. 00:06:43.536 --> 00:06:47.796 You're talking to a lot of industry executives, what are they 00:06:47.872 --> 00:06:48.232 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:06:48.246 --> 00:06:49.776 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: What do you see happening and why? 00:06:50.125 --> 00:06:51.625 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Well, I, I, you know, I echo 00:06:51.625 --> 00:06:55.885 your sentiment and this are, these are some really wild times. 00:06:55.885 --> 00:06:59.335 I'm not sure I've seen times like this in my career. 00:06:59.455 --> 00:06:59.785 Right. 00:06:59.785 --> 00:07:01.765 And it's, it's been a pretty long career. 00:07:02.305 --> 00:07:05.365 Um, you know, if you look around you, it sure looks like a lot of people 00:07:05.365 --> 00:07:06.715 are pulling back from sustainability. 00:07:07.075 --> 00:07:09.205 You see majors like bp, right? 00:07:09.205 --> 00:07:12.625 They just announced a whole pha reemphasizing and, and 00:07:12.625 --> 00:07:16.345 sort of pulling away from their renewable energy initiatives. 00:07:16.895 --> 00:07:19.775 Companies like BlackRock in the financial sector, they were one of the guys who 00:07:19.775 --> 00:07:23.855 originally started kicked off this whole ESG sustainability investing trend. 00:07:24.830 --> 00:07:25.700 And they're struggling. 00:07:25.790 --> 00:07:29.540 You know, there's a lot of talk about maybe sustainability and financial 00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:31.550 returns don't actually go hand in hand. 00:07:31.550 --> 00:07:35.420 And that was the original premise of why financiers started, uh, investing. 00:07:36.014 --> 00:07:38.144 And we were just talking a little bit ago in the green room. 00:07:38.624 --> 00:07:43.454 I, you know, I'm in Europe now and, and what you hear here and a lot of industry 00:07:43.454 --> 00:07:44.984 leaders have already spoken up is. 00:07:45.599 --> 00:07:48.839 Look, you can get decarbonization, but you're probably gonna get 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:50.699 de-industrialization at the same time. 00:07:50.789 --> 00:07:53.009 Are you sure you really want that? 00:07:53.069 --> 00:07:53.399 Right? 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:57.479 Because now you're talking about impacting the standard of living of people in 00:07:57.479 --> 00:07:59.669 order to get to these lofty goals. 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:04.510 and you know, even if you look at trends with our customers, like, um, I follow 00:08:04.510 --> 00:08:05.920 the auto industry for a long time. 00:08:06.190 --> 00:08:09.160 Let's set Tesla and some of the political stuff aside. 00:08:10.450 --> 00:08:13.360 The rest of the auto industry is still trying to figure out 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:14.620 how to make money from EVs, 00:08:15.069 --> 00:08:15.429 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Yeah. 00:08:15.490 --> 00:08:16.720 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: and this is after spending 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.180 billions of dollars of investment. 00:08:19.820 --> 00:08:23.630 So it can certainly look, look pretty scary in terms of, Hey, what's 00:08:23.630 --> 00:08:25.100 really happening with sustainability. 00:08:25.610 --> 00:08:30.380 I think before you get into the, the dynamics around sustainability, you 00:08:30.380 --> 00:08:34.130 have to look at kind of the economic context in materials today, right? 00:08:34.130 --> 00:08:34.820 Where do we sit? 00:08:34.850 --> 00:08:35.780 Where do we stand? 00:08:35.780 --> 00:08:35.840 I. 00:08:36.260 --> 00:08:39.860 And, and what is the outlook just as you're talking about chemicals? 00:08:39.904 --> 00:08:45.214 And from our perspective, I think we are, I mean, you start to hear 00:08:45.214 --> 00:08:46.774 this as I talk to executives, right? 00:08:46.864 --> 00:08:51.634 We're a third of the way in to one of the longest down cycles you've ever 00:08:51.634 --> 00:08:53.584 seen in the chemical industry, right? 00:08:53.584 --> 00:08:54.994 It may be precedent setting. 00:08:54.994 --> 00:08:58.774 Even in my, in my career, you know, we, we've been around the chemical industry 00:08:58.774 --> 00:09:02.780 long enough, Victoria, we thought of it as a, as a cyclical industry. 00:09:03.605 --> 00:09:06.155 Every five years, you'd get a little overbuilt, eh, a little 00:09:06.155 --> 00:09:10.175 aggressive, and then you'd have to cut back, wait it out, right? 00:09:10.175 --> 00:09:12.275 And then, then the industry would come back. 00:09:12.522 --> 00:09:18.732 The reality is we haven't really seen a down cycle in 20 years, and a lot of 00:09:18.732 --> 00:09:20.742 that was fueled from Asian growth, right? 00:09:21.882 --> 00:09:24.342 So China's growing double digits. 00:09:24.342 --> 00:09:25.452 They need materials. 00:09:25.452 --> 00:09:27.912 There's, uh, crazy amounts of construction. 00:09:27.912 --> 00:09:31.752 You see these things like, you know, uh, skyscrapers built and you've 00:09:31.752 --> 00:09:37.332 got 25 year, uh, backlog of empty buildings waiting to be filled. 00:09:37.812 --> 00:09:39.942 And miraculously, five years later they were filled. 00:09:40.086 --> 00:09:40.126 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: right. 00:09:40.552 --> 00:09:42.982 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: And so from our perspective, a 00:09:42.982 --> 00:09:45.472 lot of what's happened is that China growth story is over. 00:09:45.605 --> 00:09:48.815 Their, their real estate sector has imploded. 00:09:49.085 --> 00:09:52.655 They, we now know they've overbuilt their materials sector, right? 00:09:52.655 --> 00:09:55.955 And, and we've got a significant amount of excess capacity 00:09:55.955 --> 00:09:57.515 and sort of core chemicals. 00:09:58.085 --> 00:10:00.605 And a lot of that was happening pre covid, right? 00:10:00.605 --> 00:10:03.875 I think the industry got caught a little bit flatfooted. 00:10:04.415 --> 00:10:05.705 Uh, first there was covid. 00:10:06.830 --> 00:10:08.810 That was, that was what was happening. 00:10:08.810 --> 00:10:11.810 And so everybody pointed to Covid and there was the, all of the logistical 00:10:11.810 --> 00:10:14.840 issues that came along with Covid and sort of sorting that out. 00:10:15.077 --> 00:10:16.967 And I think it's become pretty clear at this point. 00:10:17.657 --> 00:10:20.477 That, that Asian growth story is over. 00:10:20.477 --> 00:10:24.347 They've had flat growth in China for, for several years now. 00:10:24.347 --> 00:10:28.487 And, and you've seen now what global, global commodity prices are looking like. 00:10:28.577 --> 00:10:29.537 I came from polyolefins. 00:10:30.047 --> 00:10:32.507 It's pretty ugly right now. 00:10:33.237 --> 00:10:39.147 I think as a, as a context, the industry's dusting off, uh, what you and I probably 00:10:39.147 --> 00:10:41.037 knew as the down cycle playbook. 00:10:41.037 --> 00:10:42.267 What do we do in a down cycle? 00:10:42.401 --> 00:10:42.761 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Right. 00:10:42.927 --> 00:10:43.167 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Right? 00:10:43.167 --> 00:10:43.197 I. 00:10:44.112 --> 00:10:47.592 We got used to, knowing how this worked, every five years or so, 00:10:47.592 --> 00:10:49.752 we're gonna run a down cycle, right? 00:10:49.752 --> 00:10:52.572 You start to see rationalizations happening, you see things 00:10:52.572 --> 00:10:56.622 going on for sale, that's after companies are reporting losses. 00:10:56.952 --> 00:11:01.842 Then you see focus on cash, you know, limited capital, probably 00:11:01.842 --> 00:11:04.362 some headcount reductions to get your cost structure in place. 00:11:04.675 --> 00:11:07.675 And you waited it out and it eventually came back. 00:11:08.064 --> 00:11:08.334 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Well, 00:11:08.395 --> 00:11:08.725 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Right? 00:11:08.784 --> 00:11:09.204 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Kendall. 00:11:09.415 --> 00:11:10.015 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: to clients. 00:11:10.075 --> 00:11:10.495 Uh, go ahead. 00:11:10.584 --> 00:11:11.214 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: I'm gonna jump in and 00:11:11.245 --> 00:11:11.755 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah, go ahead. 00:11:11.814 --> 00:11:13.384 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: of the things I've seen is that, if 00:11:13.384 --> 00:11:16.294 you look at our current leaders, so, you know, you talk about it being 00:11:16.300 --> 00:11:16.720 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:11:16.924 --> 00:11:18.754 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: upcycle and it's been approximately 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:19.250 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:11:19.264 --> 00:11:22.024 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: It's been a really long upcycle and now we're 00:11:22.024 --> 00:11:23.614 gonna enter this really long down cycle. 00:11:23.614 --> 00:11:24.934 But we have a lot 00:11:24.935 --> 00:11:25.205 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:11:25.324 --> 00:11:27.664 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: business leaders that have 00:11:27.664 --> 00:11:30.719 never actually managed or led 00:11:31.020 --> 00:11:32.135 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Been through one. 00:11:32.585 --> 00:11:32.945 Yeah. 00:11:33.364 --> 00:11:33.604 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: they 00:11:33.815 --> 00:11:34.265 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:11:34.444 --> 00:11:35.884 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: I mean, heck, maybe they weren't even there. 00:11:36.274 --> 00:11:40.024 Work career yet they were in college or maybe they were in the early days 00:11:40.024 --> 00:11:43.894 when, and I don't know about you, but I didn't actually understand what was going 00:11:43.894 --> 00:11:47.434 on in the business when I was working in manufacturing as a young engineer. 00:11:47.434 --> 00:11:50.614 I mean, I, I tried, but I, I full, I didn't, I mean, there 00:11:50.614 --> 00:11:52.204 was a, well, we'll get into 00:11:52.265 --> 00:11:52.595 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:11:52.804 --> 00:11:53.074 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: story. 00:11:53.074 --> 00:11:56.574 There was a few things I called, you know, BS on, related to sales guys when 00:11:56.574 --> 00:11:59.784 they would tell me some stories, but, um, but you didn't really understand 00:11:59.784 --> 00:12:01.044 it 'cause you weren't dealing with it. 00:12:01.044 --> 00:12:03.204 You were just executing. 00:12:03.939 --> 00:12:05.409 And not making the decisions. 00:12:05.409 --> 00:12:05.529 So 00:12:05.575 --> 00:12:05.935 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: by. 00:12:05.949 --> 00:12:08.969 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: whole set of decision makers that 00:12:08.969 --> 00:12:13.889 haven't necessarily had to make decisions in these environments. 00:12:14.299 --> 00:12:14.659 I think it's 00:12:14.755 --> 00:12:15.045 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:12:15.079 --> 00:12:17.659 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: that you talk about pulling out the playbook. 00:12:17.659 --> 00:12:21.379 I was at Soma recently, um, in, uh, I guess it was in February. 00:12:21.849 --> 00:12:25.569 And of course, Akima is focused in on the, it's mostly specialty 00:12:25.569 --> 00:12:26.979 custom manufacturing toll 00:12:27.040 --> 00:12:27.460 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:12:27.700 --> 00:12:28.330 Fine And custom. 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:28.690 Yep. 00:12:29.109 --> 00:12:30.789 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: they're actually feeling. 00:12:31.254 --> 00:12:36.084 Pretty solid because they know that part of the playbook is 00:12:36.114 --> 00:12:38.814 when the big companies have to 00:12:38.980 --> 00:12:39.460 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Right. 00:12:39.594 --> 00:12:41.394 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: to tighten their belt, have to 00:12:41.424 --> 00:12:46.224 focus in the opportunity comes up for that part of the market. 00:12:46.404 --> 00:12:47.934 Um, and so I think there's just some 00:12:48.070 --> 00:12:48.790 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yes. 00:12:49.210 --> 00:12:49.750 Yes. 00:12:50.362 --> 00:12:54.082 it certainly is completely contextual, right? 00:12:54.112 --> 00:12:56.842 If you know the fundamentals, you can figure out where, what, 00:12:56.842 --> 00:13:00.292 where you are at, and how those fundamentals play out for you, 00:13:00.396 --> 00:13:00.686 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Yeah. 00:13:00.982 --> 00:13:01.372 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: right? 00:13:01.912 --> 00:13:03.712 I, I, you know, I have, I, a funny story. 00:13:03.712 --> 00:13:05.032 I've got the, I've got the same kind of thing. 00:13:05.302 --> 00:13:06.142 I've got clients. 00:13:06.142 --> 00:13:09.748 I was talking to a CEO the other day, and, you know, he is of the 00:13:09.748 --> 00:13:12.688 same age that I am, and he know, he, he remembers the playbook. 00:13:12.693 --> 00:13:14.128 He, he remembers that it was run. 00:13:14.158 --> 00:13:15.658 I wasn't a leader at that time either. 00:13:16.423 --> 00:13:20.443 But his entire operating staff has not been, you know, almost all of 00:13:20.443 --> 00:13:22.123 his people have not been through. 00:13:22.813 --> 00:13:27.353 And when you, and, and if you remember the mantra of the day was first into 00:13:27.353 --> 00:13:33.450 the cycle is first out to the cycle, The guys who saw it first, who reacted first. 00:13:33.628 --> 00:13:37.408 Didn't end up hemorrhaging as much cash as some of the other companies did, 00:13:37.618 --> 00:13:41.248 and they were the ones who were setting themselves up to be the ones to come 00:13:41.248 --> 00:13:43.198 out healthiest in the back of the cycle. 00:13:44.128 --> 00:13:46.828 So if you know that, you say, okay, first in is smart. 00:13:47.128 --> 00:13:51.448 If you've never experienced that before, you say first, oh my God, we're, you 00:13:51.448 --> 00:13:55.533 know, what's happening to us and what's gonna happen on the other side of it? 00:13:55.927 --> 00:13:58.237 And I think that's part of, part of what, what we're dealing with. 00:13:58.237 --> 00:14:01.742 Part of why we got flat got caught a little flatfooted for, for those basics. 00:14:01.742 --> 00:14:03.422 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: The other piece, the other mantra that comes 00:14:03.422 --> 00:14:05.017 to mind with this is Cassius King. 00:14:05.912 --> 00:14:06.362 Right. 00:14:06.362 --> 00:14:07.532 And, and that was something 00:14:07.623 --> 00:14:08.403 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Cassius King. 00:14:08.462 --> 00:14:10.952 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: out early on was Cash's King. 00:14:11.102 --> 00:14:15.392 And I didn't fully understand it, but you know, we executed the playbook 00:14:15.392 --> 00:14:16.742 'cause I was running, helping to 00:14:16.838 --> 00:14:17.258 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:14:17.582 --> 00:14:19.752 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: But, I certainly see that now. 00:14:19.752 --> 00:14:24.162 It's an interesting dynamic as an entrepreneur, like Cash is king because 00:14:24.162 --> 00:14:28.902 I'm running my own books and I'm not relying on, uh, somebody else to cover 00:14:28.918 --> 00:14:29.208 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: yeah, 00:14:29.592 --> 00:14:31.002 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Take, so to speak. 00:14:31.302 --> 00:14:32.202 You gotta do it yourself. 00:14:32.202 --> 00:14:35.352 So I think this, this whole aspect is, is interesting. 00:14:35.682 --> 00:14:36.192 So 00:14:36.948 --> 00:14:37.993 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: yeah, for sure. 00:14:38.292 --> 00:14:40.182 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: sustainability though, do you see 00:14:40.182 --> 00:14:43.032 that companies are still interested? 00:14:43.062 --> 00:14:43.422 Right. 00:14:43.422 --> 00:14:48.372 So I mean there was this jubilance, now we're in an economic downturn 00:14:48.372 --> 00:14:51.797 and there's a pullback is, and you're sitting in Europe, the. 00:14:52.497 --> 00:14:58.107 You know, I almost would say the initiator of a lot of what we're 00:14:58.167 --> 00:15:00.147 targeting in terms of the net 00:15:00.358 --> 00:15:00.718 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:15:00.867 --> 00:15:03.087 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: net zero by 2025 or 2030, or, 00:15:03.357 --> 00:15:04.377 you know, pick your poison. 00:15:04.438 --> 00:15:05.698 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:15:05.699 --> 00:15:05.700 Mm-hmm. 00:15:05.877 --> 00:15:07.377 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: still interested in sustainability? 00:15:07.377 --> 00:15:08.427 What are, what are they saying? 00:15:08.685 --> 00:15:10.620 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: I, I think the short answer is yes. 00:15:10.680 --> 00:15:13.680 I mean, you know, thinking back five years, those were 00:15:13.680 --> 00:15:15.450 heady times in a sense, right? 00:15:15.450 --> 00:15:20.370 And, and everybody was getting pretty excited about the potential here, right? 00:15:20.370 --> 00:15:24.200 Sustainability became the key innovation investment, if you will. 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:26.840 Everything had a, a sustainability angle. 00:15:27.470 --> 00:15:29.030 What you're seeing right now. 00:15:29.550 --> 00:15:32.670 Is a waiting of weighing of the trade-offs. 00:15:32.730 --> 00:15:37.920 So in Europe, right, we're, we're starting to sort out what does this really mean? 00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:41.490 And do do, does Europe continue on its path or does it have 00:15:41.490 --> 00:15:42.930 to modify that in some way? 00:15:42.930 --> 00:15:45.540 And that discussion, I think, in a lot of ways is just beginning. 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:50.130 But what you see other places is, is that first effect of rationalization, right? 00:15:50.130 --> 00:15:52.230 Rationalization is not, oh, we're stopping. 00:15:52.890 --> 00:15:56.010 Rationalization is not everything is affordable as 00:15:56.010 --> 00:15:57.420 it was a couple of years ago. 00:15:57.900 --> 00:15:59.490 We've gotta pick our investments carefully. 00:15:59.490 --> 00:16:02.250 We've gotta, it, it's a pruning, if you will, right? 00:16:02.400 --> 00:16:04.680 Plants get healthier when you prune them back. 00:16:04.853 --> 00:16:05.483 Essentially. 00:16:05.483 --> 00:16:08.333 I have an optimism for, for the industry. 00:16:08.393 --> 00:16:12.133 But what you're gonna see right now is that type of pruning. 00:16:12.733 --> 00:16:14.353 Um, and I think a lot of it, 00:16:14.562 --> 00:16:16.692 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: heavily pruned, you know, you use that term 00:16:16.692 --> 00:16:21.042 rationalization and, and there's rational, as in let's be logical and rational. 00:16:21.042 --> 00:16:24.192 And then of course, we often use rationalization to say, and we're 00:16:24.192 --> 00:16:26.652 shutting down a whole bunch of assets and 00:16:26.885 --> 00:16:30.065 Is the mood gloom and doom where you sit? 00:16:30.351 --> 00:16:32.511 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: I mean, I think, I think this the, 00:16:32.601 --> 00:16:35.451 the key leaders, some of the key leaders, so Jim Radcliffe is one I 00:16:35.451 --> 00:16:37.821 look to Elem cadre at Science Code. 00:16:37.821 --> 00:16:39.621 Just, just was on the European man. 00:16:39.621 --> 00:16:42.141 She's, she's now leading the European Manufacturers Association. 00:16:42.328 --> 00:16:45.658 They've gotta be sounding the alarm bells, right? 00:16:45.658 --> 00:16:49.948 Because once you get to a point of rationalization, you're done. 00:16:50.128 --> 00:16:50.458 Right? 00:16:50.458 --> 00:16:53.428 You, there's not much you can do after something has been shut down. 00:16:53.517 --> 00:16:53.607 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: It 00:16:53.788 --> 00:16:54.178 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:16:54.327 --> 00:16:54.417 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: in 00:16:54.448 --> 00:16:54.748 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:16:54.748 --> 00:16:56.488 And so, yeah. 00:16:56.548 --> 00:16:58.768 And so they're setting off those alarm bells, right? 00:16:58.768 --> 00:17:01.738 And I think that's gonna be good, and that starts a healthy dialogue. 00:17:02.094 --> 00:17:05.994 The other aspect is, is when we talk about sustainability. 00:17:06.223 --> 00:17:10.933 We don't think of it as a, as as a single, you know, uniform type of thing. 00:17:11.473 --> 00:17:15.253 Sustainability has a lot of different types of, of plays associated with it. 00:17:15.253 --> 00:17:18.769 There's lots of different directions for sustainability and the fundamentals 00:17:18.769 --> 00:17:19.999 are different for each one. 00:17:20.239 --> 00:17:23.689 So each one has its own dynamics and each one's gonna react a little bit 00:17:23.689 --> 00:17:26.089 differently to what's happening right now. 00:17:26.629 --> 00:17:26.899 Right. 00:17:26.899 --> 00:17:29.689 So, so for me, for the question are, are companies still interested? 00:17:29.689 --> 00:17:30.529 I would say yes. 00:17:31.189 --> 00:17:32.479 But in a qualified manner. 00:17:32.509 --> 00:17:32.839 Right. 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:34.489 Does it make business sense? 00:17:35.149 --> 00:17:38.509 And the devil right now for sustainability is in those 00:17:38.509 --> 00:17:40.129 details, For some it'll be yes. 00:17:40.159 --> 00:17:41.209 And for some it'll be no. 00:17:41.838 --> 00:17:42.198 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Yeah. 00:17:42.498 --> 00:17:46.898 And I think some of it is, I think this, if I go back to, you know, the heady 00:17:46.898 --> 00:17:51.758 days of sustainability in the early 2020s, it was around new products, new 00:17:52.029 --> 00:17:52.539 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:17:52.778 --> 00:17:54.188 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: new what have you. 00:17:54.508 --> 00:17:56.548 And yeah, and we talked about this a little bit before we got 00:17:56.609 --> 00:17:57.029 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:17:57.178 --> 00:17:59.652 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: is I view the chemical industry and many 00:17:59.652 --> 00:18:02.892 industries has been inherently circular. 00:18:03.372 --> 00:18:04.272 Kind of forever. 00:18:04.332 --> 00:18:04.752 Why? 00:18:04.782 --> 00:18:05.862 Because it's efficient. 00:18:06.352 --> 00:18:07.192 Maybe 'cause it's cheap. 00:18:07.192 --> 00:18:11.212 Well, instead of sending this stream to waste or to the flare or to 00:18:11.212 --> 00:18:13.792 whatever, can I make another product 00:18:13.943 --> 00:18:14.003 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:18:14.032 --> 00:18:14.182 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: it? 00:18:14.182 --> 00:18:19.102 So if you, if you look at how much of the industry, in fact even 00:18:19.162 --> 00:18:23.117 chemicals themselves often made from. 00:18:23.977 --> 00:18:27.757 of the byproduct, bottom streams coming out of oil refineries, right? 00:18:27.757 --> 00:18:28.717 So there's a lot 00:18:28.718 --> 00:18:29.198 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:18:30.107 --> 00:18:31.787 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Circularity and sustainability 00:18:32.133 --> 00:18:32.353 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yep. 00:18:32.387 --> 00:18:33.107 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: place in that. 00:18:34.007 --> 00:18:34.607 but it gets 00:18:34.613 --> 00:18:34.903 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:18:35.027 --> 00:18:37.847 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Kendall, I think just these different risk profiles. 00:18:37.847 --> 00:18:42.257 And I think companies right now are facing a lot of risk, both from 00:18:42.363 --> 00:18:42.783 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:18:42.857 --> 00:18:46.473 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: perspective, from from meeting their targets. 00:18:46.760 --> 00:18:50.240 From thinking about should they even have innovation platforms. 00:18:50.330 --> 00:18:50.750 Right. 00:18:50.780 --> 00:18:51.830 So, and I 00:18:51.956 --> 00:18:52.356 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Wow. 00:18:52.446 --> 00:18:52.896 Yeah. 00:18:53.300 --> 00:18:54.410 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: in, um, in 00:18:54.571 --> 00:18:54.861 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:18:54.980 --> 00:18:56.750 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: and risk and understanding, 00:18:56.870 --> 00:18:58.400 helping companies understand that. 00:18:59.300 --> 00:19:00.140 do you, how do you 00:19:00.426 --> 00:19:00.486 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:19:00.590 --> 00:19:02.570 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: How do, how should companies be looking at 00:19:02.570 --> 00:19:07.430 risk and de-risking their business and their portfolios and innovations today? 00:19:07.721 --> 00:19:09.641 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: From a basic standpoint, the 00:19:09.641 --> 00:19:12.401 first is getting clear on what, what the context is. 00:19:12.401 --> 00:19:14.411 That's why we talked a little bit about sort of where are we 00:19:14.411 --> 00:19:15.851 at within the chemical industry? 00:19:15.851 --> 00:19:20.111 Because if you say, Nope, look, uh, we still got growth in China, 00:19:20.111 --> 00:19:21.161 dah, dah, dah, da da, right? 00:19:21.161 --> 00:19:23.591 You're gonna think about this whole space differently. 00:19:23.591 --> 00:19:26.351 So, so getting that context is the first piece of it. 00:19:27.071 --> 00:19:29.861 The second, and, and this is what we advocate, is, look, you've 00:19:29.861 --> 00:19:31.421 gotta reassess your portfolios. 00:19:31.670 --> 00:19:35.720 You've gotta go through the portfolio, given a new context and take a 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:37.820 look at the fundamentals, right? 00:19:37.820 --> 00:19:40.970 What are the fundamentals that are driving each of your investments initiatives? 00:19:41.333 --> 00:19:44.351 And do they still hold up in the new context, We don't 00:19:44.351 --> 00:19:45.791 advocate for rules of thumb. 00:19:45.791 --> 00:19:47.561 It's not, Hey, this worked last year. 00:19:47.561 --> 00:19:48.851 It's, it's gonna work this year. 00:19:48.851 --> 00:19:52.241 This is not the time to sort of use those types of rules of thumbs. 00:19:52.241 --> 00:19:55.511 You want to go back to what are the fundamentals of each of these investments? 00:19:56.171 --> 00:20:00.761 we think of sustainability in a couple of buckets and, and they 00:20:00.761 --> 00:20:02.621 have distinct risk profiles. 00:20:02.861 --> 00:20:03.191 Okay. 00:20:03.491 --> 00:20:06.191 You mentioned earlier that you think, hey, the chemical industry. 00:20:06.611 --> 00:20:09.461 Has kind of always been about sustainability, hasn't it? 00:20:09.671 --> 00:20:13.571 Haven't we always tried to use less material to get costs down, right? 00:20:13.571 --> 00:20:16.261 Isn't getting material out of the reaction stream and out of 00:20:16.261 --> 00:20:18.691 the final product isn't that part of getting the cost down? 00:20:19.008 --> 00:20:20.448 and that's really our first bucket. 00:20:20.898 --> 00:20:26.268 So things that are tied to efficiency, to productivity, to energy efficiency 00:20:27.078 --> 00:20:32.928 throughout the value chain, I think of as bread and butter sustainability. 00:20:33.573 --> 00:20:38.023 When I was a young operations engineer at Dow, in the division we were 00:20:38.023 --> 00:20:42.873 working at, the division manager wanted folks to focus on capital investments 00:20:42.873 --> 00:20:45.663 that also had environmental benefits. 00:20:45.663 --> 00:20:45.933 Right. 00:20:45.933 --> 00:20:49.353 At that time, environmental was, was, was the, the watch word of the day. 00:20:49.983 --> 00:20:52.953 And so they established a, a program for this, right. 00:20:53.193 --> 00:20:57.003 So you could get monies from a special pool if you focused on. 00:20:57.336 --> 00:21:01.416 environmental impact, impact at the Waste Treatment plant impact at the incinerator. 00:21:01.416 --> 00:21:04.436 We had all those on site and it became one of the most popular 00:21:04.436 --> 00:21:07.886 programs, it was called The Waste Reduction Always Pays program. 00:21:08.276 --> 00:21:08.726 Right. 00:21:09.296 --> 00:21:13.496 And what they found was you got a ton of payback. 00:21:13.856 --> 00:21:16.586 When you paid attention to how much waste waters you sent into the waste 00:21:16.586 --> 00:21:17.936 treatment plant, you counted for that. 00:21:17.936 --> 00:21:20.876 You paid attention to how much waste you were sent and the cost of that. 00:21:21.266 --> 00:21:23.546 And as those capital programs started going, number one, they 00:21:23.546 --> 00:21:25.046 paid for themselves very quickly. 00:21:25.346 --> 00:21:29.336 But number two, you know, the load on the on the waste treatment plant went down. 00:21:29.336 --> 00:21:30.386 The load on the incinerated went. 00:21:30.386 --> 00:21:36.836 All of a sudden, you see, you see waste reduction and efficiency and productivity. 00:21:37.376 --> 00:21:39.386 You saw the connection to the financial benefit. 00:21:39.546 --> 00:21:41.676 That's the first bucket for us to, to, to us. 00:21:41.676 --> 00:21:43.206 That's, that's bread and butter. 00:21:43.686 --> 00:21:44.856 It's not going away. 00:21:45.246 --> 00:21:49.596 It may have been overlooked because of these larger sort 00:21:49.596 --> 00:21:51.066 of sustainability initiatives. 00:21:51.066 --> 00:21:51.426 Right. 00:21:51.426 --> 00:21:55.682 But I think of things like lightweighting, you know, and now we're electrifying 00:21:55.682 --> 00:21:57.842 and we're, and we're actually heavyweight cars, but we used to be 00:21:57.842 --> 00:21:59.912 about lightweighting cars, right? 00:22:00.392 --> 00:22:03.602 Waste reduction, getting ener energy efficiency down the value chain. 00:22:03.602 --> 00:22:06.076 These are all, we think the lowest risk bucket. 00:22:06.511 --> 00:22:11.061 our second bucket, let's call it medium risk, is what I would, I would put in 00:22:11.151 --> 00:22:12.891 initiatives around the circular economy. 00:22:13.761 --> 00:22:18.651 Right Now, you could say that's part of the efficiency bucket, but the 00:22:18.651 --> 00:22:21.381 unique characteristic of circular economy is you're trying to build 00:22:21.381 --> 00:22:25.861 a value chain that brings materials back into the chemical stream. 00:22:26.191 --> 00:22:26.611 Right. 00:22:26.941 --> 00:22:30.931 And yes, if you're doing that within a plant, that's part of the first bucket. 00:22:30.931 --> 00:22:34.057 But if you're doing something like plastics recycling, or chemical 00:22:34.057 --> 00:22:38.347 recycling of plastics, this type of thing, you are, you need to 00:22:38.347 --> 00:22:39.667 build a new value chain, right? 00:22:39.667 --> 00:22:42.277 That's part of the emphasis of a lot of these circular economy. 00:22:42.577 --> 00:22:47.107 we think of that as a medium risk bucket because, uh, and the way we 00:22:47.107 --> 00:22:48.937 think about sort of that is, is. 00:22:49.001 --> 00:22:53.604 You want your circles in the circular economy to be as small as possible, you, 00:22:53.634 --> 00:22:55.374 and, and this is just a cost look, right? 00:22:55.374 --> 00:22:59.214 The idea being if you have to do a bunch of conversion steps from collection 00:22:59.214 --> 00:23:01.614 all the way back, and you're going and you're taking the material all 00:23:01.614 --> 00:23:04.434 the way back into the value chain, and then you're bringing it forward, 00:23:04.668 --> 00:23:06.738 chances are you've got a lot of steps. 00:23:06.768 --> 00:23:09.491 You've got a big ecosystem you're trying to build up, you're not 00:23:09.491 --> 00:23:10.721 gonna have a big cost spread. 00:23:11.276 --> 00:23:15.026 Right to be able to get that value for each of your ecosystem partners. 00:23:15.806 --> 00:23:21.176 Whereas if you design ecosystems that are smaller, that have a limited 00:23:21.176 --> 00:23:25.296 number of partners and that have a more efficient recycle, you got 00:23:25.296 --> 00:23:27.066 a better chance of of surviving. 00:23:27.710 --> 00:23:27.930 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Hmm. 00:23:28.176 --> 00:23:28.446 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Right. 00:23:28.626 --> 00:23:30.636 I if you want some examples of this right? 00:23:30.816 --> 00:23:33.876 For me, at the one end, the big circle is something like chemical 00:23:33.876 --> 00:23:35.556 recycling through pyrolysis. 00:23:35.951 --> 00:23:38.351 You're essentially collecting plastic. 00:23:38.411 --> 00:23:43.331 You're aggregating it back in, you're turning it back into oil, and then 00:23:43.331 --> 00:23:47.201 bringing it all the way back into the oil value chain at the refiner, 00:23:47.265 --> 00:23:47.825 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: a lot of steps. 00:23:47.861 --> 00:23:48.251 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: right? 00:23:48.524 --> 00:23:52.064 There's a lot of steps there, and you're talking about producing commodities. 00:23:52.064 --> 00:23:53.594 Some of that's gonna end up in monomer. 00:23:53.594 --> 00:23:57.081 Some of that's gonna end up in, in, uh, in fuel, one of the plays 00:23:57.081 --> 00:23:59.571 I like from a smaller circle standpoint is Eastman's renew. 00:23:59.921 --> 00:24:02.321 So they have a chemical, they have a chemical recycling. 00:24:02.921 --> 00:24:05.141 It's based on polyester technology. 00:24:05.531 --> 00:24:10.241 So here's an example where you can collect from the largest single recycle 00:24:10.241 --> 00:24:12.731 plastic stream that exists, right? 00:24:12.731 --> 00:24:17.344 PET, you've got very clean chemistry and you're, you're getting very 00:24:17.344 --> 00:24:18.994 high yields back to monomer. 00:24:19.114 --> 00:24:21.514 And then in the case of Eastman, you're putting it back into their 00:24:21.514 --> 00:24:24.094 high value co polyester business. 00:24:24.293 --> 00:24:27.923 So you've got a very small circle and you've got a very big spread 00:24:27.983 --> 00:24:29.753 to be able to fit that circle into. 00:24:29.843 --> 00:24:30.203 Right? 00:24:30.443 --> 00:24:32.993 I think their biggest challenge right now still is capital. 00:24:33.053 --> 00:24:33.983 Capital intensity. 00:24:34.673 --> 00:24:37.763 And then you get to the smallest kinds of circles you can think of. 00:24:37.763 --> 00:24:43.313 I've got a, I've got a company that I think is just a, a gem, a startup company 00:24:43.313 --> 00:24:46.199 called UBQ, and their hypothesis is. 00:24:47.114 --> 00:24:49.484 I don't need collection infrastructure. 00:24:49.484 --> 00:24:52.184 I don't need, I'm gonna start at the landfill. 00:24:52.814 --> 00:24:57.198 And they have technology that will take cellulose and plastic waste 00:24:57.228 --> 00:25:01.278 directly from a landfill and convert it directly into a usable plastic 00:25:01.722 --> 00:25:01.932 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Hmm. 00:25:02.988 --> 00:25:04.008 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: about the smallest 00:25:04.008 --> 00:25:05.388 circle you can think of. 00:25:06.051 --> 00:25:09.261 I, I think that one's got really, really high potential. 00:25:09.621 --> 00:25:10.011 Right? 00:25:10.041 --> 00:25:12.411 And so you can see, in one case, you're like, Hmm. 00:25:12.471 --> 00:25:13.101 Struggling. 00:25:13.761 --> 00:25:17.121 And in another case you say, wow, these things could still move forward even 00:25:17.121 --> 00:25:18.471 in the environment that we have today. 00:25:18.485 --> 00:25:18.905 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Yeah, 00:25:19.131 --> 00:25:21.141 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: So those are the buckets, right? 00:25:21.831 --> 00:25:22.551 Um, 00:25:22.715 --> 00:25:25.775 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: the, uh, the landfill to whatever the 00:25:25.775 --> 00:25:27.125 bottles, what, what popped into 00:25:27.231 --> 00:25:27.711 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: yeah. 00:25:27.716 --> 00:25:27.986 Yeah. 00:25:28.085 --> 00:25:29.465 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Kendall, when I was a kid and, 00:25:29.765 --> 00:25:32.462 and probably when you were a kid, we didn't drink a lot of soda. 00:25:32.552 --> 00:25:33.812 Um, I 00:25:33.843 --> 00:25:34.193 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Uhhuh. 00:25:34.412 --> 00:25:36.332 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: it was the sugar, it was not as available. 00:25:36.332 --> 00:25:40.982 It was expensive, but get eight packs, remember, in glass bottles. 00:25:41.777 --> 00:25:42.737 And you'd 00:25:43.158 --> 00:25:43.518 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Oh yeah. 00:25:43.877 --> 00:25:44.207 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: bottle. 00:25:44.207 --> 00:25:46.577 And the glass bottle got washed and refilled. 00:25:46.577 --> 00:25:50.057 And um, and somehow along the way we've gotten away from that. 00:25:50.057 --> 00:25:52.727 And, and frankly, some of it's lightweighting, it's the 00:25:52.727 --> 00:25:55.007 beauty of plastics, it's the way the markets have changed 00:25:55.113 --> 00:25:55.403 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:25:55.457 --> 00:25:59.867 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: But, um, we've made those circles a 00:25:59.867 --> 00:26:01.277 lot bigger than they used to be. 00:26:01.409 --> 00:26:02.819 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: I mean, I remember as a Boy 00:26:02.819 --> 00:26:04.469 Scout doing paper drives, right? 00:26:04.469 --> 00:26:06.899 That was when paper had value on the market. 00:26:06.899 --> 00:26:10.169 And so you were incent you, I had a reason to go out and ask people 00:26:10.169 --> 00:26:12.659 for their newspapers 'cause I could sell it and make money for it. 00:26:12.824 --> 00:26:13.124 yeah. 00:26:13.154 --> 00:26:14.384 So those are the buckets. 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:16.770 you know, in terms of, in terms of the, uh, reassessment, I talked a 00:26:16.770 --> 00:26:17.790 little bit about the reassessment. 00:26:17.790 --> 00:26:21.750 So, so we think of reassessing against four criteria. 00:26:22.009 --> 00:26:24.829 and part of this is about getting really brutally honest 00:26:24.829 --> 00:26:26.209 about your initiatives, right? 00:26:26.209 --> 00:26:28.009 Take each one against four criteria. 00:26:28.789 --> 00:26:33.949 One is what does your initiative look like in a cost constraint environment, right? 00:26:33.949 --> 00:26:39.229 If you're selling biopolymer, competing with polyethylene, that may have all 00:26:39.229 --> 00:26:41.989 been well and good when polyethylene was selling for 80 cents a pound. 00:26:41.989 --> 00:26:45.529 And how is it now if polyethylene selling for 60 cents a pound, right? 00:26:45.589 --> 00:26:47.929 Does it still, does your value proposition still hold water? 00:26:48.649 --> 00:26:51.349 And the other piece is in a capital constrained environment, right? 00:26:51.409 --> 00:26:54.439 If you've got somebody who has, who's going to have to make an investment in 00:26:54.439 --> 00:26:59.809 order to grow the product you're trying to sell, how does, how are you holding up? 00:27:00.005 --> 00:27:02.495 if, let's say that those capital investments are gonna 00:27:02.495 --> 00:27:04.265 be very difficult to get right. 00:27:04.639 --> 00:27:04.999 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Kendall, I 00:27:05.225 --> 00:27:07.115 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: I think those two are super, super easy. 00:27:07.115 --> 00:27:07.235 Yeah. 00:27:07.265 --> 00:27:07.715 Go ahead. 00:27:07.745 --> 00:27:08.315 Yeah, go ahead. 00:27:08.449 --> 00:27:09.589 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: a bit of a philosophical. 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:11.389 Discussion that I did not tee 00:27:11.495 --> 00:27:12.095 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:27:12.229 --> 00:27:12.919 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: here we go. 00:27:13.234 --> 00:27:17.284 because part of the challenge here, and, and I think it's a dilemma 00:27:17.284 --> 00:27:19.804 that we're facing in a global world, 00:27:20.154 --> 00:27:24.864 legacy companies, is are operating on. 00:27:25.335 --> 00:27:26.805 With different measures. 00:27:26.895 --> 00:27:30.675 So I look at, so for instance, you know, we talk about, uh, let's just 00:27:30.675 --> 00:27:33.315 take polymers, polyethylene, pick almost 00:27:33.366 --> 00:27:33.786 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:27:34.215 --> 00:27:35.595 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: somewhat basic chemical. 00:27:36.795 --> 00:27:40.125 China is overbuilt, China is overbuilt, and 00:27:40.141 --> 00:27:40.531 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:27:40.635 --> 00:27:43.215 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: gonna stop building and they're gonna keep building. 00:27:43.245 --> 00:27:46.815 And we are awash with 00:27:47.056 --> 00:27:47.656 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:27:48.825 --> 00:27:50.655 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: polypropylene, other stuff. 00:27:50.790 --> 00:27:55.770 they, I contend they are, those companies are not publicly held companies, or 00:27:55.770 --> 00:27:57.720 maybe they are, they're quasi whatever. 00:27:58.020 --> 00:27:58.500 Um, 00:27:58.551 --> 00:27:58.771 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: yep. 00:27:58.776 --> 00:27:58.996 Yeah, 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:01.440 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: are operating with a dis different 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.570 strategic plan, a different set of 00:28:03.741 --> 00:28:04.031 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: yeah. 00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:09.420 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: They are clearly operating on a country strategy 00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:13.770 that is the, you know, the China first strategy around independence. 00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:19.030 And then we've got companies in the US and Europe and particularly, you know, 00:28:19.090 --> 00:28:22.840 I, let's just tackle Europe where we're shutting down, shutting down, shutting 00:28:22.840 --> 00:28:27.910 down because it's not economical and they can't compete, it can't meet the 00:28:28.120 --> 00:28:30.400 stringent environmental requirements. 00:28:30.537 --> 00:28:34.857 so what it strikes me, and this is a bit of maybe my philosophical question is, 00:28:35.728 --> 00:28:36.148 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:28:36.297 --> 00:28:37.107 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: have an answer, but is 00:28:37.407 --> 00:28:39.717 should companies be setting. 00:28:40.629 --> 00:28:42.339 of their business should they be setting that? 00:28:42.339 --> 00:28:45.849 You know what, this is just our long term investment. 00:28:46.149 --> 00:28:52.149 We know there is no return for the next 10, 20, 30 years, but 00:28:52.149 --> 00:28:54.669 this is what it takes for us to be 00:28:54.940 --> 00:28:55.450 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:28:56.529 --> 00:28:57.909 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: in 50 years. 00:28:58.239 --> 00:29:01.749 'cause if I keep shutting down and rationalizing 00:29:02.125 --> 00:29:02.415 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:29:02.589 --> 00:29:04.629 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: not making investments. 00:29:05.454 --> 00:29:08.034 It's efficient to do so, and I save money 00:29:08.195 --> 00:29:08.615 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:29:08.844 --> 00:29:11.574 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: and my stock market investors are happy. 00:29:12.114 --> 00:29:13.524 I'm actually out of business 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:14.450 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:29:14.455 --> 00:29:14.825 Yeah. 00:29:15.500 --> 00:29:18.500 That's a fantastic, so this could, this, this could be an interesting 00:29:18.500 --> 00:29:20.210 conversation just in and of itself. 00:29:20.300 --> 00:29:24.424 Um, so this is why sort of getting clear on what we think 00:29:24.424 --> 00:29:27.034 the China dynamics really matters. 00:29:27.184 --> 00:29:27.664 Okay. 00:29:28.314 --> 00:29:33.204 and trying to see forward the fundamentals of can they continue this right. 00:29:33.669 --> 00:29:36.399 In the last 20 years it's been now that'll never work. 00:29:36.399 --> 00:29:37.509 Central planning doesn't work. 00:29:37.509 --> 00:29:37.689 Right? 00:29:37.689 --> 00:29:40.149 You and I both probably come, you're a Texan, you come from a free 00:29:40.149 --> 00:29:41.949 market kind of kind of background. 00:29:41.949 --> 00:29:43.689 I come from the same type of background. 00:29:43.689 --> 00:29:43.899 Right. 00:29:44.379 --> 00:29:49.329 And you got to the point with that Asian growth cycle where you said, uh, maybe, 00:29:49.449 --> 00:29:53.649 maybe there's something to this may, maybe we should be doing what they're doing. 00:29:53.693 --> 00:29:54.503 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: we, let's learn from 00:29:54.579 --> 00:29:55.119 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Um, 00:29:55.523 --> 00:29:56.423 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: I mean, if you look at 00:29:56.469 --> 00:29:57.519 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: yeah, yeah. 00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:58.059 Yeah. 00:29:58.343 --> 00:29:59.693 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: long growth cycles and the long 00:29:59.693 --> 00:30:02.183 commitments have worked, maybe not in 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:03.069 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Right. 00:30:03.143 --> 00:30:04.613 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: on the long term they do work. 00:30:04.759 --> 00:30:07.129 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: so the one way to, so, so as you 00:30:07.129 --> 00:30:10.999 look forward then, you know, you say, are these fundamentals set up to, 00:30:10.999 --> 00:30:12.559 to operate like this going forward? 00:30:12.769 --> 00:30:17.479 And I think there's two things that really suggests that the China 00:30:17.479 --> 00:30:19.519 thing is over, is structurally over. 00:30:19.969 --> 00:30:22.549 And in a way it's a vindication of the central planning. 00:30:22.689 --> 00:30:24.249 The naysayers, if you will. 00:30:25.299 --> 00:30:30.129 Number one, they've, they've imploded their real estate sector, and I don't 00:30:30.129 --> 00:30:36.009 know how much people see that or feel that here because it's, it's localized. 00:30:36.009 --> 00:30:36.339 Right. 00:30:36.999 --> 00:30:41.169 But you now have, local governments that are highly in debt. 00:30:41.502 --> 00:30:45.132 Most of the Chinese who could not get their money out of China, many did. 00:30:45.192 --> 00:30:45.462 Right? 00:30:45.462 --> 00:30:46.362 Vancouver's overbuilt. 00:30:46.362 --> 00:30:49.602 There's lots of places that are overbuilt, but most of the, most of the 00:30:49.602 --> 00:30:53.502 individuals who could not guess what real estate was a great investment. 00:30:54.342 --> 00:30:56.532 And it's a way that you can inve, you know, families would 00:30:56.532 --> 00:31:00.252 get together and that, and they would buy apartments, right? 00:31:00.425 --> 00:31:02.615 On the, on the bet, it's a speculative bet. 00:31:02.615 --> 00:31:03.845 Hey, this is all gonna work out. 00:31:03.845 --> 00:31:04.865 It's worked out in the past. 00:31:04.865 --> 00:31:06.095 It'll work out in the future. 00:31:06.545 --> 00:31:10.715 Um, and so what you have there is a significant amount of capital destruction. 00:31:10.715 --> 00:31:10.775 I. 00:31:11.315 --> 00:31:11.735 Okay. 00:31:12.665 --> 00:31:16.235 The other piece that I think people aren't quite aware of, and, and this 00:31:16.235 --> 00:31:19.235 is really fundamental, so this says, okay, can you restart that engine? 00:31:19.865 --> 00:31:20.405 Right? 00:31:20.675 --> 00:31:22.415 Could, does that engine restart? 00:31:22.415 --> 00:31:23.435 Does it continue to work? 00:31:23.435 --> 00:31:25.745 So, so they imploded the real estate sector. 00:31:25.775 --> 00:31:29.505 They've overbuilt their fundamental materials sector, right? 00:31:29.672 --> 00:31:33.962 the other factor that you have is China is in the early stages 00:31:33.962 --> 00:31:35.432 of a population collapse. 00:31:35.596 --> 00:31:35.656 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Yeah. 00:31:35.762 --> 00:31:36.932 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: So their population has 00:31:36.932 --> 00:31:38.612 been flat for three years. 00:31:39.242 --> 00:31:41.222 That's unheard of. 00:31:41.392 --> 00:31:45.352 And if you look at estimates right now, you know, if you look at estimates 00:31:45.352 --> 00:31:48.622 using official figures, it's something like, uh, they're gonna be back 00:31:48.622 --> 00:31:51.622 to 700 million people, not the 1.4 00:31:51.622 --> 00:31:54.352 billion people we thought they, they had. 00:31:54.569 --> 00:31:56.249 When that starts to happen. 00:31:57.224 --> 00:32:00.554 And, and if you look at, you know, a lot of the population figures are 00:32:00.554 --> 00:32:04.154 a little bit overblown and is, and that's starting to come to light 00:32:04.154 --> 00:32:07.934 now, and it makes that population collapse faster and deeper and worse. 00:32:08.564 --> 00:32:12.987 As that starts to happen, you now don't have people to consume, right? 00:32:12.987 --> 00:32:13.767 In the same sense. 00:32:13.827 --> 00:32:17.007 And you don't have, you don't have workers to operate factories in the same sense. 00:32:17.007 --> 00:32:23.187 So you got here by being the low cost manufacturer and now your supply of 00:32:23.187 --> 00:32:25.167 manufacturing labor is drying up. 00:32:25.435 --> 00:32:30.235 Coupled with the fact that you've got, you've got to restart that with capital. 00:32:31.135 --> 00:32:33.835 And the one thing I know about free markets and a lot of, some 00:32:33.835 --> 00:32:36.535 of the capital was, was coming from the free market, right? 00:32:36.535 --> 00:32:38.455 Ev eventually foreign director investment came in. 00:32:39.115 --> 00:32:40.645 You don't fool me once. 00:32:40.645 --> 00:32:42.475 Shame on you, fool me twice. 00:32:42.595 --> 00:32:43.495 Shame on me. 00:32:43.825 --> 00:32:44.305 Right? 00:32:44.905 --> 00:32:47.605 And so I think fundamentally you've got some structural issues 00:32:47.605 --> 00:32:49.435 that say this is not coming back. 00:32:49.825 --> 00:32:51.325 Now how do we deal with a fallout? 00:32:51.355 --> 00:32:52.585 'cause they're already overbuilt. 00:32:52.665 --> 00:32:58.155 So if you thought, go back to the, the way you used to think about chemicals. 00:32:58.483 --> 00:33:03.223 When there was a cycle, we would get pretty pissed at the guys who were 00:33:03.223 --> 00:33:06.673 the last ones to build a cracker and like didn't see the cycle coming. 00:33:06.733 --> 00:33:08.473 These were bad actors, right? 00:33:08.833 --> 00:33:11.923 Or the guys who decided to trash price because there's, they're gonna get into 00:33:11.923 --> 00:33:13.663 a price war during the cycle, right? 00:33:13.663 --> 00:33:18.403 These were the bad actors and these are stigmatized folks. 00:33:18.570 --> 00:33:22.530 And the market has essentially works those out, right? 00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:28.100 The good players within the market understand you've gotta build capability. 00:33:28.100 --> 00:33:30.680 You can't overbuild, you've gotta be smart about the cycle. 00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:32.510 And so what we have, you can think about this. 00:33:32.510 --> 00:33:36.620 If you think about a global market, what we have is a bad actor, a bad actor 00:33:36.620 --> 00:33:38.480 who is operating on their own policies. 00:33:38.750 --> 00:33:42.230 And if you're doing that with your own money and your own people 00:33:42.230 --> 00:33:43.760 and your own assets, that's fine. 00:33:44.208 --> 00:33:47.568 If you're gonna blow up your own real estate sector, have at it. 00:33:48.678 --> 00:33:51.528 But what you now are trying, now what you now see Chi China trying to 00:33:51.528 --> 00:33:54.798 do, and they're doubling down on the consumption, the, the consumption 00:33:54.798 --> 00:33:59.928 policy, which is we're going to sell our excess capacity on the open market. 00:34:00.053 --> 00:34:00.403 Right. 00:34:01.602 --> 00:34:01.952 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Right. 00:34:02.148 --> 00:34:03.618 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: we're not going to, to, we 00:34:03.618 --> 00:34:04.638 don't want to slow down. 00:34:04.638 --> 00:34:05.568 We want to continue. 00:34:05.568 --> 00:34:07.998 So, so you've got somebody who's now socializing their 00:34:07.998 --> 00:34:09.828 bad acting into other markets. 00:34:10.213 --> 00:34:13.363 If you remember, we originally let them into the WTO on the 00:34:13.363 --> 00:34:16.363 basis of their liberalizing and moving toward free markets. 00:34:16.363 --> 00:34:19.243 So now they're taking actions that show that they're not. 00:34:19.243 --> 00:34:24.313 So you could say, let's do what they do, but we know where that's gonna go. 00:34:24.610 --> 00:34:28.540 I think this is a time when you start to say, look, these are the basis on which 00:34:28.630 --> 00:34:30.550 you were allowed into the global market. 00:34:30.813 --> 00:34:32.433 you know, this is a place for policy. 00:34:32.433 --> 00:34:36.273 This is a place for government action to say, look, if what you're 00:34:36.273 --> 00:34:40.653 going to do, given that place in the global market is overbuild, and then 00:34:40.653 --> 00:34:45.750 socialize your policies to the rest of the world, do we really want that to 00:34:45.750 --> 00:34:47.610 continue and would we stand for that? 00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:47.939 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Great 00:34:48.150 --> 00:34:48.540 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Right? 00:34:48.540 --> 00:34:51.690 And I think that's some of what you see in the political backlash today, right? 00:34:51.690 --> 00:34:52.680 That's some of what you see there. 00:34:53.339 --> 00:34:53.969 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: because that's its 00:34:54.450 --> 00:34:54.990 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: No, no, no. 00:34:55.379 --> 00:34:57.449 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: but what I am gonna say while, while we've got 00:34:57.449 --> 00:34:58.829 this, we're on this topic, is, um. 00:34:59.939 --> 00:35:03.119 John Richardson from ICIS has been on the show a number of times and we've 00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:05.069 talked about some of the China dynamics. 00:35:05.069 --> 00:35:05.249 So 00:35:05.295 --> 00:35:05.745 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Love him. 00:35:05.745 --> 00:35:06.555 He's great. 00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.509 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: link, um, some of those episodes here in 00:35:09.509 --> 00:35:13.709 the show notes and to the blog so that we have, um, people have that 00:35:13.709 --> 00:35:15.869 context if they wanna go do some 00:35:16.185 --> 00:35:16.605 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yep. 00:35:16.829 --> 00:35:17.969 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Alright, Kendall, so we're, 00:35:18.045 --> 00:35:18.615 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: sure. 00:35:18.899 --> 00:35:20.609 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: we're gonna be running outta time here. 00:35:20.969 --> 00:35:21.509 Um, 00:35:22.160 --> 00:35:22.450 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Okay. 00:35:22.499 --> 00:35:25.649 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: my one final question that I've got for you is. 00:35:25.899 --> 00:35:29.949 You know, so as you sit here, we're the start of 2025. 00:35:29.949 --> 00:35:31.149 We recognize 00:35:31.155 --> 00:35:31.575 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Mm-hmm. 00:35:31.749 --> 00:35:35.949 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: dramatic shifts, um, taking place 00:35:35.949 --> 00:35:39.639 just economically, socially, et cetera, and companies are really 00:35:40.185 --> 00:35:40.475 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah. 00:35:40.629 --> 00:35:42.669 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: and figuring out what their next steps are. 00:35:42.946 --> 00:35:47.866 What's your top, uh, two or three things that advice that you give to 00:35:48.286 --> 00:35:51.466 executives who wanna manage and grow? 00:35:51.869 --> 00:35:53.009 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: I think the first step 00:35:53.009 --> 00:35:55.019 is reassessment, right? 00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:58.559 We're in a period of pulling back in rationalization, so you've got to do 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:01.739 a reassessment, then you got to do it on fundamentals, step number one. 00:36:01.912 --> 00:36:03.712 Step number two is. 00:36:04.001 --> 00:36:05.981 The sort of easy options for growth. 00:36:05.981 --> 00:36:10.691 The easy levers for growth aren't going to be there moving forward. 00:36:11.057 --> 00:36:12.137 I, I give you an example. 00:36:12.137 --> 00:36:16.607 I, I worked for two companies during, during this time, this 00:36:16.607 --> 00:36:18.527 heady time of growth, if you will. 00:36:19.187 --> 00:36:21.251 And, they grew by acquisition. 00:36:22.121 --> 00:36:24.851 Both of them, you know, there was a big acquisition, scree, they grew 00:36:24.851 --> 00:36:28.997 by acquisition and it was this, this sort of thing that, when, when an 00:36:28.997 --> 00:36:31.937 acquisition was over and you were sort of got through all the synergies 00:36:31.967 --> 00:36:37.037 and you were looking at counting on your organic growth to continue the 00:36:37.037 --> 00:36:40.067 growth path, you weren't always there. 00:36:40.217 --> 00:36:40.757 Right? 00:36:41.297 --> 00:36:44.867 And as long as you're managing the core business really well, you could always go 00:36:44.867 --> 00:36:48.077 get financing and do another acquisition. 00:36:48.201 --> 00:36:53.371 so in the past, I would say, managing your core business and then being able to trade 00:36:53.371 --> 00:36:55.681 on your core business was a fundamental. 00:36:56.851 --> 00:37:01.201 If we're going into a cycle, everybody's gonna be struggling to manage their 00:37:01.201 --> 00:37:04.621 core business and they're gonna be looking for growth wherever they can. 00:37:04.681 --> 00:37:08.671 And I think, I think we've gotten soft on capabilities 00:37:08.671 --> 00:37:10.921 around, around organic growth. 00:37:11.596 --> 00:37:14.956 We've been doing that for so long in this era that we've 00:37:14.956 --> 00:37:16.246 gotten soft on our capabilities. 00:37:16.246 --> 00:37:19.756 And so the, the second thing that I would say is you've gotta invest in your 00:37:19.756 --> 00:37:22.426 core capabilities to do organic growth. 00:37:22.805 --> 00:37:23.025 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Got 00:37:23.146 --> 00:37:23.536 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Right. 00:37:23.626 --> 00:37:28.126 And that means being able to do market driven innovation, right? 00:37:28.186 --> 00:37:32.416 And being a be having the commercial capability for new business. 00:37:33.076 --> 00:37:37.396 And when I say that, I'm not, I, I think we've gotten very used to managing 00:37:37.396 --> 00:37:41.416 existing accounts, commercially marketing to existing accounts commercially. 00:37:41.926 --> 00:37:46.816 And we've lost some of the muscle that we had to go out and get new 00:37:46.816 --> 00:37:49.366 business to launch new products. 00:37:49.579 --> 00:37:52.459 I'm gonna say something that's gonna be heresy, probably I'll get in trouble 00:37:52.459 --> 00:37:54.379 for saying it, but I don't think. 00:37:55.189 --> 00:37:59.209 I don't think the epicenter of B2B commercial excellence 00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:00.709 isn't industrials anymore. 00:38:01.819 --> 00:38:02.059 Right. 00:38:02.059 --> 00:38:03.289 When you and I grew up, 00:38:03.568 --> 00:38:03.648 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Hmm. 00:38:03.949 --> 00:38:06.859 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: if you wanted to do B2B industrial 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:11.629 commercial work, you went to work for ge, you went to work for Dow 00:38:11.629 --> 00:38:15.949 Chemical because those were the places that knew how to do this the best. 00:38:15.949 --> 00:38:19.079 I think, I think, the epicenter of commercial excellence 00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:20.279 today at B2B is in tech. 00:38:21.148 --> 00:38:21.208 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Yeah. 00:38:21.959 --> 00:38:22.469 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Right. 00:38:22.739 --> 00:38:24.629 And we've, in a sense, we've fallen behind. 00:38:24.899 --> 00:38:29.069 Tech is not afraid of digital and tech has kept up with the selling science. 00:38:29.069 --> 00:38:30.539 The selling science has advanced. 00:38:30.629 --> 00:38:32.549 I used to be a huge value selling guy. 00:38:32.549 --> 00:38:33.149 I'm not a val. 00:38:33.234 --> 00:38:35.039 I, I am a value selling guy. 00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:36.479 Value selling is table stakes. 00:38:36.479 --> 00:38:38.099 Solution selling is table stakes. 00:38:38.279 --> 00:38:41.189 And if you're not up on, on the latest science there, 00:38:41.629 --> 00:38:42.799 you'll end up falling behind. 00:38:42.799 --> 00:38:45.289 And if you're not using the latest tools, you'll end up falling behind. 00:38:45.289 --> 00:38:47.509 And so that's the second piece of it, right? 00:38:48.649 --> 00:38:50.179 Growth is gonna be hard to come by. 00:38:50.839 --> 00:38:54.019 You've gotta start investing in real capability, real organizational 00:38:54.019 --> 00:38:56.329 capability for, for organic growth. 00:38:56.959 --> 00:38:58.849 And that's, and that's what Growth Arc is all about. 00:38:59.253 --> 00:38:59.583 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: I love it. 00:38:59.583 --> 00:39:01.413 And that's a great, uh, that's a great close. 00:39:01.623 --> 00:39:03.183 So Kendall, this has been really fun. 00:39:03.183 --> 00:39:04.173 If people want to 00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:05.089 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: Yeah, 00:39:05.553 --> 00:39:06.213 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: um, how can they 00:39:06.469 --> 00:39:07.039 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: absolutely. 00:39:07.293 --> 00:39:08.103 two ways. 00:39:08.163 --> 00:39:09.663 Number one, I'm all over LinkedIn. 00:39:09.792 --> 00:39:10.082 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Yeah. 00:39:10.293 --> 00:39:11.823 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: if you're a LinkedIn user. 00:39:12.213 --> 00:39:15.573 Feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn and you can, I've got a company page on 00:39:15.573 --> 00:39:17.523 Linked As as well, growth Arc Advisors. 00:39:18.303 --> 00:39:21.873 If you're not, and I know there's a lot of people who are not right, 00:39:21.873 --> 00:39:23.673 I would say go to my website. 00:39:23.673 --> 00:39:26.223 I'm at growth-arc.com, 00:39:26.853 --> 00:39:30.303 www.growth-arcarc.com. 00:39:30.378 --> 00:39:32.148 I run an executive round table. 00:39:32.388 --> 00:39:34.368 I run a, a newsletter. 00:39:34.368 --> 00:39:37.788 I would say subscribe to the newsletter and you'll hear and, and get some 00:39:37.788 --> 00:39:41.598 of these perspectives and be able to stay in touch and, and, and, 00:39:41.718 --> 00:39:43.608 uh, join into the dialogue as well. 00:39:43.682 --> 00:39:44.012 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: love it, 00:39:44.328 --> 00:39:44.658 kendall-justiniano_1_03-27-2025_155142: So 00:39:44.792 --> 00:39:45.092 victoria_1_03-27-2025_105142: Kendall. 00:39:45.092 --> 00:39:48.482 Thanks so much for this and thank you everyone for joining 00:39:48.482 --> 00:39:49.742 us today on The Chemical Show. 00:39:49.742 --> 00:39:52.952 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will 00:39:52.952 --> 00:39:54.452 talk with you again soon.