[00:00:00] Antony W: Welcome to the Grow My Salon Business podcast, where we focus on the business side of hairdressing. I'm your host, Antony Whitaker, and I'll be talking to thought leaders in the hairdressing industry, discussing insightful, provocative, and inspiring ideas that matter. So get ready to learn, get ready to be challenged, get ready to be inspired, and most importantly, get ready to grow your salon business.

[00:00:30] Antony W: Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the Grow My Salon Business podcast. I'm your host, Antony Whitaker, and it's great to have you here with us. We often hear about how much the industry is changing as if it's just the hairdressing industry that is changing, but it's every industry that is changing.

[00:00:50] Antony W: For example, just think of the impact that Spotify or other streaming services have had on the music industry. Or the impact that social media has had on [00:01:00] advertising in magazines or the impact that Airbnb has had on the hotel sector, or the impact that Netflix has had on TV and entertainment. And I could go on.

[00:01:09] Antony W: Every industry is changing and it always has. Maybe the rate of change is speed up a little, but don't go thinking that eventually things will get back to normal.
Instead, embrace change and look for the opportunities in front of us. My guest on today's podcast is Andrew Finkelstein, and he's witnessed a lot of change in the industry.

[00:01:32] Antony W: Andrew isn't a hairdresser himself, but he comes from the famous Finkelstein hairdressing dynasty. He currently resides in New York and works as an author, speaker, and coach for hairdressers. In today's podcast, we'll discuss Glemby International, the family business coaching, and the changes that the industry is undergoing from new technology to new roots, to market for retail, and evolving business models and lots more. So without further ado, welcome to the show, Andrew Finkelstein.

[00:02:05] ANDREW F: Hey Antony, it's great to be here. Really appreciate the time to spend with you.

[00:02:12] Antony W: Me too. I've been looking forward to having a chat. We've, just so our listeners know, we've already been chatting for the last 45 minutes. So it's about time we push the record button cuz otherwise we leave all the good stuff on the cutting room floor, so to speak.

[00:02:22] Antony W: Andrew, we haven't met. Isn't it a funny world? We haven't met face to face, but we've met over Zoom several times, so I feel like I know you better than what I do. But, a lot of our audience won't know you. So what I'd like to start off with is for you to give us your sort of two-minute backstory.

[00:02:42] Antony W: Who is Andrew Finkelstein? And then I will start to dig into all the good stuff and break it down into the key areas that we're gonna discuss for the podcast. So over to you.
 
[00:02:53] ANDREW F: Fantastic. I thought Andrew Finkelstein was the good stuff. Any Anyhow, I am Andrew [00:03:00] Finkelstein. I've been working in and on the salon, professional salon business my entire career. That's not totally true because I was in the retail business before that department store business, as a buyer. And got into this business through my family and we had a very, we had an international business. It was called Columbia International and I.

[00:03:27] ANDREW F: Actually with the exception of being a hairdresser, I worked in every position in the company starting behind a very busy front desk. So I learned the business from the ground up and I got to go to various countries around the world, lived in the UK for a couple of years where I ran a group of salons and ran their, our international training went to Australia.

[00:03:55] ANDREW F: Worked there for a time and in the US [00:04:00] ran the, what we call the Our Prestige Division, which were located in department stores such as Bergdorf Goodman Henry Bendell. I mag the best department stores in the world where we had salons and I work with, and I had the privilege of working with some of the top hairdressers people such as the great late great Kenneth Patel, the late great Jean-Louis David Garren, Oribe, the late Oribe.

[00:04:31] ANDREW F: A slew of people. Just the top. Top. And I know these new and know these people personally, and they're as talented as you are in the audience. I know that there, I know you out there in Antony's audience are extremely talented, extremely energetic, and looking forward to your future. So that's a little bit of history about me.

[00:04:57] ANDREW F: Okay.

[00:04:57] ANDREW F: Hope it made the two [00:04:58] minutes.
[00:04:58] Antony W: Yeah. No, you didn't, but [00:05:00] who cares? You were good . No. Okay. So your, you are very modest about that description and a lot of what we're gonna talk about in this podcast is about change. And I started hairdressing at the end of the seventies we're a similar age.

[00:05:14] Antony W: And it was a time when in most big cities, that the premium salon in town was in a department store very different times to today, and no matter what country you are in, a huge percentage of those premium salons were Glemby international salons. And. It's just interesting that, here we are.

[00:05:36] Antony W: There'll be a lot of people that listening to this that would be completely unaware of the brand and the impact that Glemby International had on the industry. Now I know you just said that they were an international brand. You didn't allude
 
to the fact that according to Google, and tell me if I've got any of this wrong, according to Google there were 1600 salons at the peak.

[00:05:56] Antony W: Employing over 10,000 people [00:06:00] in 10 different countries with sales in excess of 250 million dollars. Does that sound about right to you?

[00:06:08] ANDREW F: That's, that sounds about right to me. [00:06:11] ANDREW F: Good. Okay.
[00:06:12] ANDREW F: And that's what, and that's when a dollar was worth a dollar. [00:06:14] ANDREW F: Yeah.
[00:06:14] Antony W: Let's put it that way.

[00:06:16] Antony W: Yeah so that is one hell of a business. And that was at the. End of the seventies, eighties, whatever.

[00:06:25] Antony W: . And yet now most people don't even know of the brand. Don't even know of the name. So let me ask you, first of all, got so many questions to ask you about that, but we don't have that long what happened what happened to Glemby International?
Where are they

[00:06:39] ANDREW F: now?

[00:06:39] ANDREW F: Okay, so Glemby International was a family business. And it was started actually long time ago, 1880. So that was even, not even the previous century. That was in the 19th century. And it was started as a hairnet business by some clem's. Anyway long story [00:07:00] short, my grandfather Got into the business, not the professional side of the business.

[00:07:04] ANDREW F: He really didn't like the professional side of the business too much. He, we had notions, we had retail and anyway. After the second World War his sons, there were three sons got in. He brought them into the business and basically he turned over the business to them. They were very young at the time.

[00:07:23] ANDREW F: They'd just gotten out of the the forces they'd served and they'd fought and he, he turned the business over to them. And what he did was, Because he valued family more than anything else. He legally set the business up so that if any one of them wanted to sell the business or any one of their families wanted to sell the business, that the business would have to be sold.
 
[00:07:49] ANDREW F: So that, that was the early construction of the business. Fast forward four decades, let's say. My uncle who I worked with, who I adored died and his [00:08:00] family did not want to remain in the business, so we had to sell the business. Simple as that.

[00:08:08] ANDREW F: Okay.

[00:08:08] ANDREW F: And that's why when you, that's what the legal part of any hairdressing, this is really important. That's why you have to think through your values.

[00:08:17] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:08:17] ANDREW F: That's why you have to, it, it really is about that. And I could share, he, my, my grandfather wanted his sons to remain together. And he knew. Yeah, ,

[00:08:28] Antony W: Did it, it was privately held, so [00:08:31] Antony W: all privately held.
[00:08:32] Antony W: 1600 salons, all privately owned by the family. That is incredible. [00:08:36] Antony W: Okay, did he sell it to? Was it broken up and sold as different brands?
[00:08:40] ANDREW F: No, it was not broken up at the time. There's, they still exist, although barely today, just at testing the model, A company called Regis. Okay. Which was a publicly held company.

[00:08:53] ANDREW F: And Regis had purchased our department store, competitive. Okay. [00:09:00] And it made sense for Regis to purchase us. So they basically would control the entire department store, specialty store market. Okay. And economize, et cetera, because that would be, we may have had 1500, 1600.

[00:09:21] ANDREW F: They had 10,000. They took it up to 15,000, which, we all have thoughts about that. Yeah. But they had different brands and they then had a very large I believe it was 3,500 department store

[00:09:34] Antony W: salons. [00:09:35] Antony W: Okay.
[00:09:37] Antony W: And it makes sense.

[00:09:37] Antony W: You just alluded to the fact that it's still there in some shape or form. It peaked at in thousand odd salons. What is it down to now? Any
 
[00:09:46] ANDREW F: idea.

[00:09:46] ANDREW F: What the Glemby the Glemby group, [00:09:48] ANDREW F: the Regis
[00:09:49] Antony W: Regional

[00:09:49] Antony W: Regis group. Any idea [00:09:51] Antony W: the
[00:09:51] ANDREW F: Oh, Regis Peak?

[00:09:53] ANDREW F: Cause I know that's shrunk a lot.

[00:09:54] ANDREW F: It's 15 and it's been a very, unfortunately it was a, it's, it [00:10:00] become, had become a very troubled company. And today they have basically become a, from my understanding, they become a franchise company. They have a great franchise called Supercuts, that was the backbones, and they bought other franchises, but they were taking the salons. And franchising them. They want to franchise them to local owners. It could be the hairdresser who's in charge of the local unit, or a local business owner who wants to hop into the business, but they really want to spin off the company owns, or they don't wanna operate.

[00:10:40] ANDREW F: Yeah. Got

[00:10:41] Antony W: it. Okay. Just I'm curious you mentioned your three uncles , who, developed the professional side of the business and built up that monster of 15,000, 1500, 1500, 1600 salons. Did they all have totally different skill sets? Was one of them the entrepreneur? Was one of them the [00:11:00] accountant? Like what did they

[00:11:01] ANDREW F: each bring to

[00:11:02] ANDREW F: Yes. a, That's a great, that's a great question. Yeah. One, one uncle we had a couple of divisions. We continued with what was called the notions division. And one uncle headed that, and he was really the, the accountant, let's put it that way. My dad was the entrepreneur. He was the youngest. . He was the gunner. And my senior uncle, the uncle Nathan was, he was the chairman, let's put it that way.

[00:11:31] Antony W: Okay. Okay. It's always interesting when you look at a family business, the

[00:11:35] Antony W: yeah.
 
[00:11:35] ANDREW F: And he was an attorney. [00:11:37] ANDREW F: Yeah. Okay.
[00:11:38] ANDREW F: He also was an attorney.

[00:11:40] Antony W: Yeah. Yeah. So no one as a hairdresser on the [00:11:44] ANDREW F: business side of it
[00:11:46] ANDREW F: there was no hairdresser on the [00:11:48] Antony W: business side.
[00:11:49] Antony W: Okay. Fascinating. All right. And then we're gonna be talking about change and how the industry's evolving. Sure. The department store thing The businesses were primarily in department [00:12:00] stores in that age

[00:12:01] Antony W: Correct. Correct.

[00:12:02] Antony W: What, why was that? I know the answer, but I just want you to say it

[00:12:09] ANDREW F: because, and because originally, as I said to you before, the business started out as a notions business, a retail business, and one department store called JL Hudson. In the early 20th century, came to the Glemby's and said, Hey, you deal with all sorts of things, women's products, you must know about beauty, how we hear that there are these beauty parlors. We'd like one in our store, and we think that you guys can run.

[00:12:48] Antony W: So when was this? What [00:12:49] ANDREW F: decade are we talking about?
[00:12:51] ANDREW F: 19. 1909. Something crazy like that. [00:12:55] ANDREW F: So I very,
[00:12:55] ANDREW F: somewhere I have the original contract. [00:12:58] ANDREW F: Yeah.
[00:12:58] ANDREW F: My dad gave it to [00:13:00] me. [00:13:00] ANDREW F: Wow.
 
[00:13:00] ANDREW F: Yeah. There's one page. [00:13:02] ANDREW F: Yeah.
[00:13:03] ANDREW F: You can, so there was not a lot of fine print. [00:13:05] ANDREW F: Yeah.
[00:13:06] ANDREW F: And that's how it started. But the department store, was not where the growth was at the time because there weren't many department stores. Yes. Every city had a downtown department store.

[00:13:15] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:13:15] ANDREW F: But it wasn't until the 19th, after the second World War into the fifties where the department stores started to grow and expand through as America pushed out of the cities. This. And they had things called malls. Yeah. And the department stores would anchor the mall. Yeah. Very different. Very different. In the uk, very different in the uk, different in Australia. Because in the UK as there was always the one or two or three department stores in the central area and that's where people shopped.

[00:13:53] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:13:54] ANDREW F: And for years and years. So there. Like new branches, et cetera. [00:14:00] Yeah. The, it was a,

[00:14:02] Antony W: what were you saying?

[00:14:03] Antony W: I was gonna say the mall. Is was the game changer, wasn't it? I don't know. I don't know when the first mall

[00:14:08] Antony W: Total,

[00:14:09] ANDREW F: total it was total how soci how society was going.

[00:14:13] Antony W: Yeah. The mall and the motor car changed everything and more so in America than in Europe because the land

[00:14:21] Antony W: Absolutely. [00:14:21] Antony W: Base, et cetera. [00:14:22] Antony W: It
 
[00:14:23] ANDREW F: total totally correct. Yeah. Okay. And so the stores, stores would say, We're putting in a new model. We want you to come with us. What are we gonna say? No.

[00:14:33] Antony W: Yeah, exactly. [00:14:35] Antony W: Okay. Big opportunity.
[00:14:36] Antony W: What? What's the secret to building a family business? You must have a, working in it, but B, growing up in it, yeah. What's the secret to it? Anyone who can get 15 to 1600 salons together, they've gotta know the formula for they can work.

[00:14:52] Antony W: You

[00:14:52] ANDREW F: really as a family, this may sound woo, but you really have to have a consciousness about what [00:15:00] you're doing. You have to have, you really have to be like communicative. You have to have courage, okay. To say what to say. True to you. You have to have my dad and his brothers had great, a great relationship and this could sound really crazy. You have to have love. Those guys loved one another. Truly loved one another, and. Without. Without that you don't have a family. That's cuz it gets very complicated as successive generations come in. Yeah. And

[00:15:39] ANDREW F: and

[00:15:39] Antony W: there's with love comes trust.

[00:15:44] ANDREW F: Absolutely. And those guys trusted, my dad and uncles trusted one another to the ends of the earth.

[00:15:53] Antony W: Yeah. Fascinating. And it's fascinating, because in the intro I talk about change and I [00:16:00] talk about how, headdress is. Seem to think that we're the only ones that are being forced to change, know, this evolving business model. But, as I said in the intro, look at how the taxi industries changed because of Uber. Look at how the music industries change because of, streaming services like Spotify. Look at how the hotel industries change because of Airbnb, et cetera.

[00:16:19] Antony W: Everything is changing and always has changed. It's not some new phenomena. Maybe the only thing that's new-ish, Is the rate of change because with technology, et cetera, it seems to have sped everything up.

[00:16:33] Antony W: But before we start talking about the changes in the industry today and your take on that. , there's something else I wanted to touch on, and that was that I know that you a, you're a coach, but b you, you worked with Michael Gerber who wrote that, seminal piece of work, the EMyth.
 
[00:16:51] Antony W: And I find over the years when I talk to Hairdress, if there's one business book they've read, it will be the EMyth and the EMyth has been a fantastic book. It certainly was [00:17:00] a seminal moment for me as a business owner, a new business owner when I first read it, and when I met Michael in terms of understanding business.

[00:17:07] Antony W: What I wanted to ask you about that was, we don't have time to talk about him in great depth, but what's the most important lessons that, that you got from working with Michael Gerber, the EMyth as a coach, and understanding that side of who you've become?

[00:17:26] ANDREW F: Okay. As a, as a coach, what I did for him and the reason I chose to work with him is because I too had read the book .And I too was moved by it. So much so that I picked up the phone and I called, want more information because I knew coming from my own background of the chain business, one of the things that was critical in our business was system development. Yeah. And that diff, that allowed it without a system.

[00:17:58] ANDREW F: Without a system, we could [00:18:00] not have grown. And we had very strong systems for everything, not just financial systems. know, We had training systems, we had all the things that you could dream of. We had systematized. Okay. And so I'm out there, I'm now developed, wanting to develop a coaching business, but I knew I needed a system. And I knew I wanted to teach people in our industry how to build a successful business, and I knew they needed assistance. So Michael had probably the best probably still does in that in business building systems that are available anywhere in the world. And so I went and worked with him and learned and spent three years.

[00:18:48] ANDREW F: Three years training in learning how to, learning the systems and how to apply them and how to bring them into someone else's business, how to coach someone so that they could bring the system in. [00:19:00] And really it's in what he created was in incredible. Totally incredible. And it worked. And I think the real lesson is let the systems do the work. Let the people operate the systems.

[00:19:14] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:19:15] Antony W: The systems do the work.

[00:19:16] Antony W: Yeah. He has so many great little one-liners like that, doesn't he? [00:19:21] ANDREW F: Yes. He, yes he does. And those are really truisms,
[00:19:25] ANDREW F: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:27] ANDREW F: And that's how you grow. That's how you grow. And Michael, curiously, Antony cuz I know, I knew the guy. I still know him. He's a very evolved person. In terms of, he's a very spiritual guy and although we may think that the EMyth is cut and dry,
 
there's a spiritual side to it that is quite incredible. Yeah. But that takes an that's another level of knowing and working with it.

[00:19:55] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:19:56] ANDREW F: Not all is what it seems. Let's put it [00:19:58] Antony W: that way.
[00:19:58] Antony W: Yeah, no, I know. When I've [00:20:00] heard him speak and subscribe to various things that he puts out on the internet and stuff, he has a very very

[00:20:06] ANDREW F: much dimension to it. Very,

[00:20:08] Antony W: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So your coaching company a Game Mastery Coaching, that's the correct

[00:20:14] Antony W: Terminology, isn't it? [00:20:14] ANDREW F: Yes. Yes. That is
[00:20:15] Antony W: As a coach. And I know you, you deal with the top end of the market with high performance coaching. Do you just work with hairdressers or do you work with other industries as well?

[00:20:26] ANDREW F: I've worked I've worked with other industries. I prefer to work with hairdressers owners. In our industry.

[00:20:35] ANDREW F: Yeah. Okay.

[00:20:35] ANDREW F: And it's just that's my own thing. I'm dedicated to, crazy. But then I'm dedicated to seeing people thrive, to seeing people grow, to seeing people become all that they can be. And I know that they can become so much more. And there's not a put down of anyone then [00:21:00] how, who they are today.

[00:21:02] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:21:03] ANDREW F: And people. People. And so that's why I have niche in the business.

[00:21:11] Antony W: Okay. Let me ask you this question with working with, salon owners over the years what is it that holds most people back from achieving their goals?
 
[00:21:22] ANDREW F: Great question. I would say it's their belief system about themselves and about the business and not being able to, that's the wrong word. Not giving the time, not taking the time to reflect. They're so busy juggling so many balls in the air. That. And, and believing. Believing, look, people don't have a lot of confidence. Some do, most don't. [00:22:00] Salon owners tend not to have a lot of confidence because they haven't necessarily built up the competence side of the, business their, most people have been hairdressers, right? Who had what Michael calls an entrepreneurial seizure.

[00:22:18] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:22:19] ANDREW F: Believe. Believing that because they know the business, the work of the business, that they know how a business would work, and the two are very different.
The two are totally different. What happens is they slip and they go working in the business, developing their own they develop their own following whilst they're trying to develop the business.

[00:22:41] ANDREW F: And it's just overwhelming. Just going back to your question, you really have to know yourself and get a and know that you have to develop the confidence and you do that over time. [00:23:00] There's no instant Presto solution to this. And it's really about, it's really about more about you, about your leadership, about how congruent you are, how caring you are, how conscious you are. How you adapt to change? Lots of things that when I work with someone we work on,

[00:23:22] ANDREW F: do

[00:23:23] Antony W: you there's two words because every, every man and his dog, for want of a better expression, is a coach these days. Unfortunately, there's some very good ones, but there's a lot of people out there that are. They're coaches for all the wrong reasons, and there's two different words, coach and mentor.

[00:23:40] Antony W: And I meet people who are extremely good coaches, but they're not hairdressers and they don't have to be

[00:23:46] Antony W: Because the definition of a coach to me [00:23:48] Andrew F: Correct.
[00:23:48] Antony W: Is that they're not to say to you, this is how you should do it, there to get you to identify your goals and your blockages

[00:23:57] Antony W: And to help you

[00:23:57] Antony W: Work through those things, [00:24:00] whereas a mentor. Is that person and I, so I'm a coach, but I really regard myself often more as a mentor and that
 
[00:24:07] Antony W: I'm, I was a salon owner. I've had salons, I've, this is how I did it, this is what I suggest you do. That is the mentor versus the coach.

[00:24:17] Antony W: Correct.

[00:24:18] Antony W: Which is asking questions and digging in that way. [00:24:23] ANDREW F: Exac, exactly. Exactly.
[00:24:26] ANDREW F: So,

[00:24:26] Antony W: so, what approach do you have

[00:24:29] Antony W: Because you are not a hairdresser, but you may as well be because you've spent most of your life in this industry, so you haven't had a pair of scissors in your hands, but you really understand, you have? Okay,

[00:24:44] ANDREW F: there are more talented people. [00:24:47] Antony W: Oh, I I didn't realize that [00:24:48] ANDREW F: you'd actually done hair.
[00:24:49] ANDREW F: I, snip or two, but that's, but. really at home. So the approach that I use, the high performance and I'm a certified high performance coach. [00:25:00] Okay. And it's completely different. Completely different. It, there is, it is, you said some things about how you're living in the question with your clients completely different because the larger outcome. The larger outcome that I'm looking for beyond any goal of the client is to help them, is to help that client reach higher performance in all areas of their life. Okay. And there's a set of specific questions that I use that are followed. Each session that I work with the client is unique, that has a set of questions, and each session also has a training component in there. Okay. Where I teach you, I teach the client a new habit. I teach them a new tool, or I teach them a new concept that furthers their education and growth in that specific area. Okay? [00:26:00]

[00:26:00] ANDREW F: In short. In short, I have a curriculum, so this isn't Hey, how's it going today? What you want to talk about? Oh Joanie didn't show up. Okay what can we do about that? This, that is not on the, that's not my job there. I'm paid to push. I'm paid for your growth. You're coming to me cuz you want to grow, you wanna grow your business and you are the one yet growing your life. If you're not growing, your business is not growing.
Promise you there. So in short, as I said, there's a curriculum or a roadmap for progress that allows me and the client to consistently feel that each session, every time we come together, is adding value and advancing them. So they're growing, they're moving forward. No matter [00:27:00] what their goal is, does that make sense to
 
[00:27:02] Antony W: you?

[00:27:02] Antony W: Yeah, no, definitely. Definitely. No very much I was thinking before we got before I pushed the record button I'm not sure if I volunteered it or if you asked, but the question I answered was, Who is the average listener, and I described them to you, as the average person listening to this, and some of them will start smiling to themselves now because they are doing this, is that the average one is a woman,

[00:27:27] Antony W: In their thirties. They own a salon. So they have staff, they have a husband, and they're probably listening to this while they're in the car or on the Peloton or walking the dog. Do you know what I mean?

[00:27:38] Antony W: No, I

[00:27:38] ANDREW F: know exactly what you mean.

[00:27:40] Antony W: And. And that they're thinking to themself, if I'm gonna listen to Antony's podcast for an hour, what am I gonna get from it? Because the thing that those people have all got in common is they're busy. So what I wanted to ask you is, one question is if you are that person, if you are, and they may not be in their thirties, and they may not be a woman, [00:28:00] and they may not be on the peloton , for arguments just to paint the picture, if you are a salon owner and you're listening to this. What would you say the top three things are that salon owner should focus on?

[00:28:13] ANDREW F: Number one is seeking clarity. Okay. Focus on envisioning the future. Focus on determining the feeling, how you want to be. What feeling you're after. Okay. This is real. When you go to that salon, how, when you open that door, how do you wanna show up?

[00:28:36] ANDREW F: Okay. And then determine what's meaningful to you. Okay? Also you want to, and this is in a busy world, and thank God there, there are things like Pelotons, because without them, we're not generating the energy we need to be the owner that we have to be. There's nothing worse than having an owner come in [00:29:00] with an energy level that's down and people are afraid.

[00:29:03] ANDREW F: I, I have to say, I'm sure you've met people who are always seem to be up. That's real. , that's not a put on. You can't show up every day being positive, et cetera, et cetera, if you don't have energy. It's, there's something which we'll just call, bring on the joy, making sure your health is optimized, okay?

[00:29:24] ANDREW F: Because if you're not feeling well, this is why I'm really, this is so important. If you are not feeling well, if you are not taking care of yourself, which my gosh, we know hairdressers, we know owners, and they're the last ones. They're nine o'clock at night, they're staring at the wall and they know the kids, husbands feeding the kids.
 
[00:29:48] ANDREW F: It creates a lot of stuff going on. They're exhaust. So you gotta take care of yourself so that you can generate, so that you generate the energy and then you have [00:30:00] to, third thing, there's, but you have to develop influence, especially today in our industry where you know, there's lots of forces at work.

[00:30:12] ANDREW F: You have to develop influence, you have to teach people how to think, you have to challenge your people to. And you yourself have to role model the way, and there's very specific habits that you can develop to do all those things.

[00:30:27] ANDREW F: .

[00:30:27] ANDREW F: Okay. So those are three things.

[00:30:29] Antony W: Yeah. Good. Yeah, no, they're three good things. Yeah. Very good. Okay. Let's fast forward a little bit and talk about. You write a very great newsletter, which I subscribe to every week as I was saying to you, and you always have some great opinions in there about the industry as it is today. So I wanna dig into a couple of things there, which was the retail model of today.

[00:30:53] Antony W: That's what I wanna talk about first because I know you have. Okay so with your salon background , I'm gonna suggest that [00:31:00] retail probably wasn't a big part of that business, purely because since that business has been sold, 20, 30 years ago, the whole professional retail thing has absolutely exploded.

[00:31:15] Antony W: It's huge now. Forgive me if I'm wrong when I say that it probably wasn't a big part of your business but. The way that retail is changing now, and a lot of it is because of what you can do with a phone is not just scroll through social media but you can buy stuff, et cetera.

[00:31:31] Antony W: So yeah.

[00:31:32] Antony W: How. Do you see the salon retail model evolving? I've heard you talk about, different different channels to market now that didn't exist before.

[00:31:45] Antony W: I mentioned to you that I'm gonna have someone on the podcast shortly who represents one of those channels. So I'd be really interested to get your thoughts about it, because retail done well. There's a significant profit center for [00:32:00] salons, but there's a lot of people walking down retail. Professional retail as being, there's nothing in it for us. It's run a mile from stock and retail and you sell and you don't need it anymore. It's not part of the professional

[00:32:11] ANDREW F: model.

[00:32:11] ANDREW F: Here's the thing, and you just hit the nail on the head. If you're, if you don't believe, if you don't believe that this is gonna add to your success, if you don't believe
 
that it's gonna add value to your clients and to your. If you don't believe that you can become a better hairdresser by becoming more knowledgeable about the things that consumers are already using and you become the expert. If you don't believe that, don't do retail. You're right. I have a very strong opinion about that cuz I think you are outta your mind. You are outta your. And that comes from confidence and competence. You are not confident that you could do it cuz you don't know how to do it. [00:33:00] Okay, let's just, we'll leave it there and I don't want to come across as a jerk about it, but let's, the model is changing.

[00:33:09] ANDREW F: You have to be in the game. There are tools. There are tools that are available today that were ne certainly never available to us. My God, it's great. You can go directly into your client's phone, show up. They can order today online from you. What amazing thing, what they don't have to, they don't have to go anywhere.

[00:33:36] ANDREW F: And if. It builds a bond of trust. And if there's one thing, if there's one thing that I know about great hairdressers, and it's not that they're great, technically some are, but the best ones build the trusts and all the retail is, it's another, it's icing on that cake of trust. [00:34:00] It's beautiful. And so if you go in with a mindset, oh, it's something I have to do.

[00:34:07] ANDREW F: Well, don't do it. But if some, if you want to take great care of your client, and I know this may sound like propaganda from the, whatever the product companies, it's not, it's the truth. People are gonna buy, they more likely to buy from you cuz they trust you than anyone else. And if not today, they'll buy tomorrow.

[00:34:29] ANDREW F: But you still have to be, you're still competing. You're still competing with all those retail outlets. You're competing with Amazon, but you could beat 'em cuz they'd rather do business with you if they like you and trust you.

[00:34:41] ANDREW F: Yeah, exactly.

[00:34:42] ANDREW F: It's so fundamental. It's so crazy that people don't jump on the bandwagon.

[00:34:50] ANDREW F: but it takes work. [00:34:51] ANDREW F: Yeah.
[00:34:52] Antony W: The key word though is what you said about caring. That's, you don't do it for a commission. If you get a commission, great, but you do it [00:35:00] because it's your client and you care about them and because you care about them and you wanna add the right stuff, you recommend it. And hopefully they purchase it. And yes, the business makes money outta that, but that's the nature of business. It's, it's what's meant to happen. But the driving thing, Has to be because I genuinely care about this client and what's best for
 
their hair, so I'll recommend it. Absolutely. We happen to have that on the shelf, or we happen to have it on our website and we'll ship it directly to you.

[00:35:24] Antony W: Or we have an affiliate relationship with someone else who holds it, who will ship it to you.

[00:35:28] ANDREW F: And you can be, you can bet about bottom dollar, pound, or whatever we want. Call it that caring, that those who really care, those who really care. Who are of service have better businesses, lead better lives, that it actually caring is one component of some of the work that I do. But I can tell you that for sure it's, and caring is an element of high performance.

[00:35:55] Antony W: That was something that, you mentioned it before we started recording and I'd made a [00:36:00] note of it. , and you just touched on it then you said about building a better. is a

[00:36:06] ANDREW F: fundamental

[00:36:07] Antony W: principle that underpins everything you do when you're talking to hairdressers. That it's not just about running a better hairdressing salon, it's about

[00:36:15] ANDREW F: it's building a better life.

[00:36:17] ANDREW F: It's building it's, and there is a guy, Michael Cole. He's still around. Michael. Yeah. It's, and my, and I tip my hat off to him. All this is about building a better business so that you can lead a better life.

[00:36:34] ANDREW F: Yes.

[00:36:35] ANDREW F: Why else would you want to do it?

[00:36:37] ANDREW F: It's stupid. It's stupid. So when you get clear on that, and then what does a better life mean to you? Clarity is essential in high performance. You know who you want to be, how you want to treat others. Who you wanna show up as every day there's a, there are, there's [00:37:00] work to be done for everyone in that area. But ultimately it's about life. It's about joy, it's about happiness. Who doesn't wanna be happy?

[00:37:10] ANDREW F: Exactly.

[00:37:11] ANDREW F: I know that may sound, I may, that may sound crazy, but you go to work every day, Hey, you spend, what percentage of your life. Working with people. Okay. Working with clients. Working with your team. You wanna be feeling great.
 
[00:37:32] Antony W: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Last thing before we start to wrap up, cause I wanna talk about the evolving business model. Your. Salon businesses were very much employee based businesses.

[00:37:45] Antony W: Yes, they were.

[00:37:46] Antony W: And over the last, 20, 25 years, there's been a real shift towards more independent contractors whether they're called booth renters, chair renters, [00:38:00] or the salon suite movement.

[00:38:01] Antony W: Give me your thoughts about that. What do you think's driving it, what's good about it? What's not so good about it for the industry, where you think it's going, et cetera.

[00:38:12] ANDREW F: Okay. First of all, I think it's, I think it's good for the industry cause I think it's part of the industry. I think, overall, because there's always been that let's put it that way.

[00:38:22] ANDREW F: There's always been the independent, the booth renters, et cetera. It's just, we're more aware of it. Why? Because social , we're just, we're really aware of it. And my own experience and my own background, we did have where we were hairdressers, but we also had full service. And wherever we had full service, we brought in experts from those areas, companies, beauty companies, to run that part of the business cuz they knew their business. And they had employees and sometimes they [00:39:00] hired independent contractors.

[00:39:01] ANDREW F: Anyway. Anyway I believe if you're building a business, You need to be very clear. There's that word again as to what the business represents. It's it's very tough. It's very tough. To have a hybrid, some of this, some of that employees or booth renters, I think that is what I call a micmac business. I think that going into booth rental as coming outta school and taking that option, I think it's very tough.

[00:39:33] ANDREW F: I think people will drop out of the business. all together because they're not going to make a buck. And they're not going to do the things that you really have to do, the hard things that you have to do to be successful. Show up every day and they'll rationalize, they're not gonna be disciplined.

[00:39:52] ANDREW F: Which is a challenge for salon owners because of all the stuff that's coming up in their lives. [00:40:00] So those independents have stuff coming up in those their own lives. Do you think they're gonna be disciplined when all they have to? The only person I have to report to is themselves. Don't think so.

[00:40:11] ANDREW F: I think it's a formula. I think a young person going into that it's a formula for disaster. Likewise, how do we, what do we have to do as a silent owner? How can you address that? Just be a great leader. Just learn to lead. Lead yourself first. Learn to
 
lead your team. And going back to Gerber's mantra, set high standards, firm boundaries and come from the heart. That's, that's how we have to be. And I know there's a lot to that.
Okay. So I think there's a place around the world. For employee based businesses. Not everyone wants to be their do their own thing. There are some people who like to [00:41:00] come. Most people like to be led . Basically. There are very few leaders.

[00:41:07] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:41:07] ANDREW F: So how can you have all these businesses out there that require leadership? It doesn't work. So if you want a successful biz and it's hard. You gotta honor the struggle that hat that I, it's hard. I talked yesterday with someone from in . He said, boy, getting people out there, bringing people to work. I, I've done everything he said, and then I just decided, heck with it. I'm going into the schools and I am, and this guy runs a high end place. I am going to recruit. He said it's been great.

[00:41:42] ANDREW F: It's been great. I have a training program. I recruit people. They're looking forward to coming to work every day. It's been great. You gotta shift your thinking around all this stuff. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what quote unquote the industry does. [00:42:00] It matters what you do. You is always gonna be successful salon owners.

[00:42:09] Antony W: I, I heard someone say something recently. I don't remember who it was now, it may have been on a podcast. It may have been one of my guests. It may have been someone I was listening to, and they said something like, it wasn't long ago where you'd advertised for staff. Now you have to recruit staff. And I thought, yes, it really rung a bell with me that they're two different things.

[00:42:30] Antony W: it's not just stick an ad in the window anymore or on seek or whatever to get people. It's, no, you've gotta go out there, you've gotta recruit people, so that was interesting. The other thing I picked up on there, three points that you said, high standard.
Firm boundaries and come from the heart.

[00:42:48] Antony W: There's three really good points for a manager to have tattooed on their forehead, or .

[00:42:53] Antony W: maybe just as a screen saver, [00:42:55] Antony W: yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:42:58] Antony W: Okay. [00:42:59] Antony W: Because what?
[00:42:59] Antony W: [00:43:00] No I dunno what I was gonna say then. High standards, firm boundaries come from the heart. I know I was going to segue into before we wrap up is where do you see the future of the industry? Where are the opportunities?
 
[00:43:14] ANDREW F: That's a great question, Antony. I see that this is probably the only business that's gonna be left standing when all is said and done in our increasingly virtual world.

[00:43:27] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:43:28] ANDREW F: Okay. That, that this is with the exception of another kind of personal services business.

[00:43:36] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:43:36] ANDREW F: This is the only business where we can touch people. Truly, and that's people, physically as well as know emotionally, but really physically, and people need that.
We're so divorced from one another in the [00:44:00] last three years especially. It's, everything's been so exaggerated with, the human touch it's been, it's. God, the people who in our industry, we have done, those people who have survived, are left standing and are now prosper, have done incredibly well. And they ought to. Every one of your, every one of your listeners out there who is in business today and was in business, before the pandemic ought to congratulate themselves.

[00:44:36] ANDREW F: For coming through it and leading others through it. What an amazing journey. But going forward, you really have to, we're gonna be a solid business. Okay. I believe that the independence, those who really take hold and become the leaders in their marketplace are gonna prosper. [00:45:00] There's, there's not gonna be, this getting by kind of thing.

[00:45:06] ANDREW F: You just have to be, it's taken that good to great. That's what it's in. People who really get that are gonna love doing business, love the industry and they'll be successful. And I believe this, you know. There's not gonna be the flow B revolution. It's just not gonna be, at least in my lifetime.

[00:45:31] ANDREW F: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:32] ANDREW F: And I think in the lifetime of everyone is listening to this podcast, it's not gonna be.

[00:45:38] Antony W: I did something you just said there that I picked up on was about we touch people physically, but also emotionally, and we forget. We forget that it's not just, get your head down next, please. Do you know what I mean? It, we do have this opportunity to touch people, physically make them feel good, but to connect and engage with them [00:46:00] emotionally at a deeper level. And that's something that's so important and it's something that a lot of people don't. Always give a lot of thought to about this industry, and it's an important part of it.
 
[00:46:09] Antony W: It is. And I know salon owners who celebrate, different generations of clients coming into their business and. Those places, those salons are as relevant today as they were relevant when, the grandmother started coming in.

[00:46:30] ANDREW F: Yeah.

[00:46:30] ANDREW F: And now she brings her little granddaughter in, or the mom brings, it's, that's the bond. That's the business.

[00:46:39] ANDREW F: That's, it, that's what people want. [00:46:43] ANDREW F: Yeah.
[00:46:43] ANDREW F: In a world that's going, seems like outta control, which it is in many ways, but it's always been, anyway, we're just aware of it. Where we can bring people together in a community. It's, that's salon. That's salon.

[00:46:59] Antony W: I wrote [00:47:00] something down before. Before we got on this call it was a quote that I'd read that you you quoted it, but it wasn't your quote. It was Disney's quote.

[00:47:11] Antony W: .

[00:47:11] Antony W: And it was the perfect way to finish on this. It was something about. Magic and the work and the business. It's not the ma, it's not magic that makes the business work. It's the work that makes

[00:47:25] ANDREW F: the magic,

[00:47:25] ANDREW F: that makes the bus, that makes the business. [00:47:27] Antony W: Was that it? Did I get that right?
[00:47:28] Antony W: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:29] Antony W: I wrote it down somewhere. I thought it was fabulous. But anyway. Listen, we need to wrap up here I've thoroughly enjoyed talking with you. Whereabouts can people connect with you on social media or website? What would be the best place for them

[00:47:44] ANDREW F: to go and find best place?

[00:47:47] ANDREW F: Best place is my websites, it's andrew finkelstein.com. Okay.
 
[00:47:55] ANDREW F: And just go there. And sign up [00:48:00] for my newsletter. It's there. You can do, you can also sign up for a a conversation with me if you'd like. It's all available there.

[00:48:10] ANDREW F: Okay.

[00:48:10] ANDREW F: And, that's the best, that's the best way. Or you can just email me directly, Andrew at Andrew Finkelstein dot com. And I will get

[00:48:21] Antony W: back to you.

[00:48:22] Antony W: I will put those links on our website, grow My Salon on business.com in the show notes for today's podcast. So if you're listening to this podcast with Andrew Finkelstein and have enjoyed it, then do me a favor, take a screenshot on your phone and share it to your Instagram stories. And don't forget to leave us a rating and review on the Apple Podcast app. All of my guests. On the podcast willingly give out their time free of charge as a way of giving back to others. So think of a review as a way of saying thank you to them. So to wrap up, Andrew Finkelstein, thank you so much for being on this Week's Grow My Salon Business podcast.

[00:49:01] ANDREW F: Antony, it was a really, an honor and a privilege of being here. I mean it from the bottom of my heart. It was great. I had a wonderful time of being with you.

[00:49:09] Antony W: Thank you. [00:49:10] Antony W: Thank you, me too.
[00:49:17] Antony W: Thank you for listening to today's podcast. If you'd like to connect with us, you'll find us at Grow My Salon business.com or on Facebook and Instagram at Grow My Salon Business. And if you enjoytuning in to our podcast. Make sure that you subscribe and share it with your friends. Until next time, this is Antony Whitaker wishing you continued success.