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This week we have part 2 of our interview with John Saddington that literally sent warning bells blaring through the 8Bit office. We also hear about his new Kickstarter campaign: Pressgram (an iOS app that allows you to take filtered photos, and publish them to your WordPress blog).
Show Notes
This week we have part 2 of our interview with John Saddington that literally sent warning bells blaring through the 8Bit office. We also hear about his new Kickstarter campaign: Pressgram (an iOS app that allows you to take filtered photos, and publish them to your WordPress blog).
Highlights
- “Without deadlines you just never know if there’s progress, or to measure momentum.”
- “Without deadlines you won’t know if you’ve succeeded in doing anything.”
- “Without personal deadlines you can be slaving away on something and never launch.”
- “When you have partners you will have more fun, you will make more money, and you will have more margin than without.”
- “Unless you’re a magical unicorn that can do all things, you’re probably going to be a specialist (a designer, business person, developer). Startups need specialists that are kicking butt at being excellent in particular areas, than a bunch of generalists doing everything mediocre.”
- “Investors want to invest in people that are at the top of their game.”
- “You haven’t launched because there’s something in this product that you can overcome without help.”
- “Finding good people is about experimenting.”
Show notes
Sponsors
- Our premium sponsor is Sprint.ly. Sprint.ly is agile project management software with one goal: to help you ship more stuff. You can try them out for free at www.sprint.ly. You can also thank them on Twitter: @sprintly
Shout outs
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Creators and Guests
What is Product People?
A podcast focused on great products and the people who make them
What's on product people this week? Well, we have part two of our interview with John Saddington. This interview literally sent warning bells blaring through the eight bit office. You won't wanna miss it. If you have a web development team or a product team, you probably want to know where you're wasting time and how you can be more efficient.
Speaker 1:This is exactly what sprint.ly does. It helps surface the things that slow down development so you can focus on shipping faster. You and your team can try sprint.ly for free by going to www.sprint.ly. You won't want to miss the shout outs we have at the end of this episode, so stay tuned for that. Now let's get back to our chat with John Savington.
Speaker 2:And I just think far too many entrepreneurs do way too much due diligence instead of just hitting, you know, hitting, you know, pressing start is what we say here at eight Bit. Just press start. Just press start. Jump in. No.
Speaker 2:Don't read the manual. Go die a couple times on the first level and then you'll learn.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. You know know the thought in my head right now, and I think this would be a good question, is I'm thinking, you know, right now John has this office and this team and this freedom. Know, it sounds like there's some freedom in that space. But there's a lot of our listeners that are probably thinking, You know what, I work full time and I get home from work and I'm just exhausted. And the idea of doing something on their side project, like often side projects become a slog that we just do every single night for years and never kind of do anything.
Speaker 3:So what are some things that people that have side projects can do to do that, to like set some goals? How did you do that in the past when you didn't have maybe as much time as you do now?
Speaker 2:Yeah that's a great question. And so this is not so much about discipline because I don't really, I'm not a very disciplined person. But I do set boundaries and I set boundaries not just for myself personally but I also set boundaries for our company, the amount of hours that we work and invest in the company, and also boundaries for my family, for my children. What's nice about boundaries is they are hard, but there's a lot of flexibility within them. And so for my side projects, all I would do is I would create a boundary of time during the week and during each day to say this is what I'm gonna this is amount of time that I'm going to work on this side project.
Speaker 2:And typically it was almost always in the evenings. And say for two hours a day for the next ten days, ten, fifteen days, I'll build the MVP. And if I'm that in love with the idea, which I usually am, then filling in those two to three hours a night for the next fifteen business days will not be hard work at all, and that's what I'm gonna do. And then so for me I have a start date and I have an end date. And if I meet my deadline for the product for those fifteen days, fantastic.
Speaker 2:Then I think okay, what's the next step? Instead of just saying well I'm just gonna have a side project, fiddle you know, fuddle duddle with it every night for a couple hours and you know see what happens and maybe you know it might come out. But without deadlines, it's like you just never know if you're creating progress and it's very difficult to measure momentum.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And for me and for our team here, we have core releases, that's very important because there's deadline for your next major push for your product. Your customer is expected so there's accountability there. But you also then can celebrate. I think that's one of the big deals for us is, you know, we have kind of a big family day coming up and we're all gonna have all the families and the wives and the children go out to the zoo together and we're just gonna celebrate like the first quarter.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And without those deadlines, you don't know if you've succeeded in doing anything. It can be very difficult to feel like if you made any momentum but you say, hey release the next push for Q1, fantastic, big jump in sales, Let's go have a party. Know and it's just everyone feels great about that and then it energizes us enough for you know another three months of work. But it happens at the corporate level but also at a personal level. Finish my sprint, I use a little bit of agile software methodology.
Speaker 2:When I finish that sprint, I feel really freaking good and I'm gonna go grab like a six pack and I'm gonna down it myself or whatever it is. I'm gonna grab a cigar and I'm gonna go into the balcony and just hang. Yeah. And that just very, very, very simple reward system can go a long ways.
Speaker 3:Yeah and I guess it's better than the flip side which is you just keep slogging with no deadline, but you never get to celebrate anything, you don't accomplish as much, and you also don't, you just keep feeling like all you're doing is slogging, there's no kind of end Yeah, to
Speaker 2:it's very difficult to measure progress. And you know what, the thing is, and you've probably met and talked through this naming experience for yourself, but some of the greatest innovations are where you're able to relieve yourself of a previous obligation. It's like there's this very, when you can get to a point, a point of decision, every pivot is made at a point of decision. Know that's Eric, Eric Reid's big thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it really is true. It's like unless you have a deadline, it's very difficult to come up with a justification for a pivot. But if the deadline's looming in ten days and you're at a 100 points back and three sprints behind, it's like there's no question. You are coming up to a fork in the road for your company, for your product, and you have to make a decision. Well know, f it.
Speaker 2:We are so far behind, we're never gonna make this, we have to internally pivot.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And that helps you create those you know, that reason to make a change. Otherwise it's just like, yeah, side project, no big deal. I didn't get to it but you know no one's looking over my shoulder. But without those personal deadlines, like you can be slaving away at something and never launch.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think setting the deadlines, like you just mentioned, and setting up metrics for when you should pivot and that sort of thing is The big thing is that's all objective evidence for you doing so. Whereas like, Justin earlier, you mentioned something about like having an emotional connection I think to your side projects and like it can be pretty hard I think to evaluate like, do I change this? How do I What should I do? If you're basing your decision off like If you're not basing it off of like, you know, objective data like that.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think I think you're spot on. You are spot on. That that could be that could be preached to every entrepreneur who's who's listening is you there's no there's no getting around it. You are emotionally tied to your startup and your product and your side project.
Speaker 2:It's just you are one with that thing. It's your baby. And so you have to create objective ways of categorizing your product and telling yourself that it's ugly. Like otherwise you're never going to be able to because you're just so emotionally involved. But when you say, oh I'm so in love with this product or this idea, I spent the last eight months in it, and you're coming up on that deadline, you're forced to just look at your baby in the face and say, Damn you're ugly.
Speaker 2:Just say, Man I am so sorry, you are not done and I have to make a decision. I think that's spot on.
Speaker 3:Interesting. Now, why don't we talk a little bit about Let's talk about Kyle, did you have anything else you wanted to I know sometimes you've got things stewing from stuff we've already
Speaker 4:talked about. That's how we work. Justin like keeps asking these questions and I just sit here and I think of like It takes me like ten minutes to think of a question. No, I don't really have anything hanging right now, so we can kind of move on. I'm sure we'll come up with more as we go.
Speaker 3:Perfect. Well, John, why don't we talk about Pressgram? What is Pressgram?
Speaker 2:Pressgram, very simply, it's an iOS application that helps a user take filtered photos and then publish them directly to your WordPress blog. That's its base functional description. But I think there's a much bigger philosophical thing with Pressgram, and it's this idea of having much more creative control over your content. You've been around, you guys have been around for a while, so you probably remember, and it wasn't even that far along, it seems like internally, you know, the Instagram issue with kind of licensing rights you know for the users and all that stuff and you know Instagram is part of Facebook, there's even more governance and oversight and stuff. But I'm philosophically against you know, that governance, that control, those licensing.
Speaker 2:I think you know, true creative publishing and true control of publishing is not just the inception or the actual creation of the piece of artwork or the capturing images. It's also the right to publish where you want without restriction. And so loving WordPress and kind of the open source philosophy and mindset, I thought well I want to be able to do that. I want to be able to take pictures of my kids, my cat, my dog, my daughters, whoever. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then post it to my blog. Not post it to instagram.com/ you know John Saddington. Yeah. I want to retain those page views. I want to retain that continuity of messaging and brand and whatever.
Speaker 2:And I think many people do too. But it started at just filling my own need, know as they say scratching your own itch. October I left Instagram, I left Facebook earlier and just said, but man I really like filtered photos. Terrible like I'm a terrible you know iPhone photographer and the filters make it look like I'm a thousand times better. So I like filters but I don't want to use Instagram.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I thought I'm gonna set out to create a small application that will do that.
Speaker 3:And Pressgram, so you you kind of built the MVP for Pressgram, is that right?
Speaker 2:Well I started concepting anything from just sketches to full kind of high def composites. And then I started developing in February. And then I got to a point, you know, I was like I don't know six months in from this and now this is a significant side project for me. And from what I had gathered, I had estimated very conservatively from about eleven hundred to fourteen hundred hours to complete it. You know I have built so many products historically, so I have a very good intuitive feel for the time.
Speaker 2:I built it all out by sprints and hours. And I was like, man, if I keep doing this you know a few hours a night and then kind of binge on the weekend, it's gonna take me another nine, ten months to finish this thing. Which means that my side project will have ballooned to about a year and a half, eighteen months maybe at the very least. I'm like there's no way that I wanna do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So then the only way I'm gonna be able to accelerate that is if I can either raise some capital for it or you know leave my current company or something.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to do those. I didn't want to raise any capital because it just wasn't I didn't have enough conviction to actually go in front of my previous back and be like hey I think I want to build this. I just I could not convince anyone to back it. So I just said well I'm gonna try Kickstarter.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:See if it works. I have backed many projects. I think I've backed over a 100 projects myself. So I'm a huge fan of crowdfunding but I really never considered doing it for myself. So I said well I like experimenting so let's see what happens.
Speaker 2:So far we've got I guess we're in about twelve, thirteen days in almost halfway there in terms of time and then I think we're about 35,000 out of 50,000. So I think we're going to be able to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah and what like maybe talk about like at the end result like people that back this project, what do they get?
Speaker 2:Well they get the finished application much sooner than later which is kind of the biggest win for everyone involved including myself. But there's some basic rewards from anything from stickers to cool swag. We got a of shirt that I want to release and some other cool kind of pretty new material. Someone did donate the 10,000 which was the largest one which they get to actually name them the filters whatever they want. Oh cool.
Speaker 2:So that was cool. Wow. They are forever immortalized in the application. So that was really cool.
Speaker 3:This is crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah so there's a bunch of different rewards but otherwise I really feel like the biggest reward is knowing that you were a part of something revolutionary.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's what I've really kind of come around to. I was very cool in the beginning because I thought they would reject my project because I was fairly vitriolic against Facebook and Instagram and no one wants to you know like willingly support a fire starter when a fire starter isn't necessary. I was thinking well I really toned down the language for my project when I submitted it but then once I submitted it I was like oh well like now that you said okay to it now I'm gonna say hey Facebook's my enemy. If you don't like Facebook and you don't like having some kind of big brother over your shoulder when you take images on Instagram then you should find an alternative and I think I have an alternative for you. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So now I'm no longer cool. I'm just like this is what it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's your enemy. Are you going to release it as a paid product at the end? Like it's going to be a paid app in the App Store?
Speaker 2:Nope, it's going be entirely free.
Speaker 3:Oh I see. So this is like So
Speaker 1:this is kind of like
Speaker 3:people are supporting this open source, well it's not open source, but this project that anyone that actually wants to see this thing come to light, they back it and then when it gets released, it gets released for free for everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It'll be in the App Store and kind of the whole nine yards. You'll be able to say, I was at the round level. I was a part of something really big. And I really believe that now that beyond scratching my own itch, I've seen so many people say, Hey that's my itch too and thank you for building.
Speaker 2:I had an email even this morning from an investor down in Florida emailing me privately through LinkedIn and said, I had just come up with this concept and I was going to kick start it too. I searched through kick start, I found yours and then he sent me some money. It was like go for it. Yeah. This is what I think the future is.
Speaker 2:It's just much more independence from the large conglomerates to publish you know in terms of the independent web. And to be able to say hey I was a part of that is I think a big deal. I think we're all looking to be a part of something much bigger than ourselves, and I think Kickstarter and crowdfunding is one way to satisfy that kind of human or you know anthropological need. Just I just I just It's just not enough to be part of my own world. I wanna be part of something even bigger.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So one thing that I was curious about with Pressgram is like you talked earlier about how you have, you know, kind of all these targets set for your side projects and things. So I'm wondering, how do you set sort of I mean, obviously there's financial milestones with the Kickstarter, but have you set any other kind of goals and targets with this? Or are you treating this more as like an experiment that you just want to see what happens with it? Like to see it succeed.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It is very much an experiment, but every experiment should also have a start and end date. Know, we learned this in elementary school. Know, it's like experiment for thirty days on the leaf to see if it dies when you put oil over it You know for whatever that thing. What's that process?
Speaker 2:Right. What's the process I'm like I'm total OCD. What's that process when air touches a leaf and oxidizes? Come on like all three of us are a bunch of idiots. What is that?
Speaker 2:My
Speaker 4:wife is a science teacher. She's She'd be shaking her head if she actually listened to this You
Speaker 2:know what I'm talking about though, right? What is it called?
Speaker 3:The I'm
Speaker 4:gonna throw out either photosynthesis or some
Speaker 2:Photosynthesis. Other
Speaker 4:Anyway. Okay. So it's
Speaker 2:you know, and then you have your control group. I'm way off topic, but yes, this experiment has some deadlines and obviously the Kickstarter project helps accelerate some of those financial goals. But by the end of the calendar year, my big one is just a thousand users. If I can get because it'll be released sometime in August and so in three months if I can't get 10 users a day from August till you know 12/31/2013, I will either remove it or I will just ask someone else to take over the project or something because it just won't have enough momentum for me to continue to not only finance the darn thing because the server costs from AWS are not gonna be, it's gonna be relatively cheap and not you know since there's no financial model immediately it's just gonna be out of my pocket.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you know and then so yeah December 31 is kind of a big day for me if I look in my know my logs and there's there's not a thousand users, I'm just going to give away or something.
Speaker 3:Man. Do you think this crowdfunding, is this a good channel for product people to experiment? Is this something based on your experience so far that you would recommend to other people?
Speaker 2:You know what? I have thought about that a lot over the last two weeks and my opinion has changed like almost every other day. I've read a number of very different perspectives, and I cannot remember the gentleman's name because I would love to give him credit, maybe I can send you via the show notes.
Speaker 3:Yeah send us the link later.
Speaker 2:He proposed that Kickstarter and other prominent fund like Indiegogo and stuff like that are great ways to vet the quality of the idea. And in fact, what might be seen as public shame because you know it sucked not to get funded.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It actually saves you countless of hours of not just product development, but also you know financial modeling and just trying to create a business. Yeah. Because if the culture and the population doesn't fund it, generally speaking, not all all the time, but generally speaking, the consumers don't want it. And I think that's a brilliant way for you to just have a slap in the face reality that hey this product is a stupid idea. Either that the product in its current state or even the concept of it you know at large.
Speaker 2:And if you're willing to put yourself out there and use crowdfunding as a way to vet an idea, I think it's brilliant.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Some you know some are obviously like oh my I was looking in Atlanta, kind of the Atlanta, I love how they do kind of geographical regions, and there's a zombie board game. Here out here And in they were trying to raise 25,000, I think it's like two guys or something, I can't remember. Two guys created a zombie board game. And the zombie board game is really freaking complex. It's like it's not for idiots.
Speaker 2:And even me, it's like I look at it and I love D and D. Know I know how to speak 20 sided dice. I was looking at it and I was like holy crap. I don't know if I like I would actually enjoy this, it's too complex of it. It's like you know, a set of lists of content like 10,000, so
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:But, so the return rate is 24,000, and now they're at 1,400,000. So they're functional millionaires. Yeah. In the last thirty days, and I think they have like three or four more days left. The consumers have said, hell yeah, we will buy that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Fantastic for them. I mean they'll launch the product easily with the money they've made and then they can relax for the next two years. Like or you know, I don't know what they're gonna be doing. But fantastic.
Speaker 2:The consumer said yes. And there's other projects which you know, course I've seen that I think are brilliant ideas, but maybe are maybe introduced too early to the market. Yeah. Fantastic hardware solutions that people are like, I just don't get it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:All three of us here, we're somewhat technologists so we get it. We're like, oh my god that's a brilliant idea. But if the consumer space can't support it, it's not a great idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah. What is that?
Speaker 2:That may be my farm.
Speaker 3:Are you okay? Do you need to do you need to go check something out?
Speaker 4:Did you evacuate?
Speaker 2:I'm turning on mute. Someone's at the door, one second.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, he did. He muted himself.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, think he muted himself.
Speaker 3:Their office looks really cool.
Speaker 4:I know, was looking at that one video on Kickstarter where he's just kind of in their big office space. Yeah, brick walls, exposed ceiling, kind of the Hey John.
Speaker 2:Hey guys. Hey. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3:That's fine.
Speaker 2:Was gonna
Speaker 3:do it. You have to You're under control. Did you have to evacuate?
Speaker 2:No, I chose not to. Yeah. But I wish they would tell us when I'm doing global wide testing. Geez, that was so loud.
Speaker 3:What was it? It was a fire alarm?
Speaker 2:Yes. As far as I can tell, it was a test. But if I do have to run out because the building is burning down, then that'll make for an interesting podcast.
Speaker 3:That will make this the most interesting show ever. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry that you had to do some editing now, but
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's that's no problem. I I think what we'll do is we'll probably just spend another Kyle might have to take off here. Cool. But we'll spend another ten, fifteen minutes.
Speaker 4:And while you were gone and we were talking about you, one of the things that kind of came up was like you have a very systematic approach to the way that you tackle these side projects. Like, you talked about, I think it was when you were building the first goes at Pressgram, you talked about how you estimated the hours. And you built it all in sprints and things like that, which is, again, maybe it's just kind of your nature. But I don't think that's how a lot of people approach their side projects. They kind of just, like Justin said earlier, slog away at it on their spare time.
Speaker 2:It's not as That's a great question. I know where you're headed, and if there's a way to export some of that to the listeners. To be very clear, it's not as systematic or even as clean as know, as it may be portrayed. The process literally looks like this. Wherever I am, I come up with an idea, and as quickly as I possibly can, I write it down in a notebook?
Speaker 2:For for some strange reason, capturing it on something like Evernote or some digital device just doesn't work, and I'll have my action method notebook, and I will capture it in raw form. And I'll just vomit as much as I possibly can about that idea. And then because you know 10 out of 10 times it is a software solution or some software application, I will quickly start laying code as quickly as I possibly can. Because I want to not only capitalize on the momentum that's been organically created, but I want to begin to bump up against significant questions about the product as quickly as I possibly can. And then I will work backwards and begin scoping out a much larger project because at that point, have a much I have a realistic depiction of the challenge before me, and then I can actually create very good boundaries and expectations for not only myself, but my partners and my wife for what this quote unquote side project might actually become.
Speaker 2:And it is it is So it's fairly fairly organic, but I try to hit those major points. Capitalize on organic momentum as quickly as you possibly can. Get into the weeds so that you can actually see what's in the weeds as quickly as possibly can. And then work backwards a little bit, you know shortly thereafter to say okay, I've actually started concepting, maybe even building, who knows. And now I have a realistic idea, okay.
Speaker 2:So what exactly am I trying to build? Oh this, okay. So man it really looks like it's gonna take this much for Facebook integration, this much for OAuth, I'm gonna use this X framework, and holy crap. So then you can actually see instead of just some wild guess in terms of a product roadmap, you actually have a really good feel. And people who have done it for a while, they have a very good intuition about them.
Speaker 2:But even if you look at my estimates, in eleven hundred to fourteen hundred hours, that's a difference of three hundred hours. And that's a fairly large span if you actually know, if you actually break that down, that's seven and a half weeks, like of hardcore work, it's like two and a half months, or I'm sorry, it's almost two months of work. So it's like, oh, there's still a big window there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's
Speaker 2:It's just enough for me to be able to tell my partners, hey, so this is what I'm doing here tonight.
Speaker 3:Mhmm, and you brought up, like how do you talk to your spouse about your side projects and how do you set kind of realistic expectations?
Speaker 2:Like the best piece of advice I can probably give which is almost not a piece of advice at all because you know, it's not a piece of advice. But the greatest thing that I've had for me is my spouse because there's just no bullshitting your spouse. You know she's been there, she's seen all of my projects and it doesn't even matter what language I'm using, how impassioned I am about the idea. She just can very clearly and objectively look at you straight in the face and go, man that's kind of a stupid idea. Or it's typically in line of well you've committed yourself to x y z projects already, I just don't see how logically you can add another.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And a spouse has an uncanny ability to do just that.
Speaker 3:I
Speaker 2:think I think that's great. I don't I do not pine over you know the fact that I am married. Some people are like, I wish I wasn't married so I can work all day and all night. What kind of life is that? When I go up to Greenville on Monday to coach this new cohort of this new technology accelerator, one of the things I always preside is, I always ask is, hey how is your balance of life?
Speaker 2:How are your activities outside of this startup? I'm sure you have twelve weeks and you've got a grant of money and you kick have serious tail over the next know, in this next twelve weeks or whatever the program like this. But are you having fun? Are you rock climbing? Are you kicking a soccer ball around?
Speaker 2:Are you hanging out with your friends? Are you being healthy with yourself? And I think that's really, really important.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great perspective. Just how we can set realistic expectations for ourself is one thing. And then also just the people in our lives. That's super important.
Speaker 3:One thing that we've mentioned is that a lot of product people are doing it by themselves. They'll get an idea and then they'll just start, you know, every night they'll start putting some time into it. And you've talked about how great it's been to have a team, to have these people at eight Bit you really like working with. If someone was thinking about maybe finding a partner or building a team, how does that happen?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It happens just like anything else. There's no magic in terms of finding a partner but it just requires you as kind of the founder or the first person to the table to get to a place where you can admit that you're going to do better work and you're gonna go further faster with help.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That is the biggest hurdle. Then everything else is kind of natural. You're gonna be in networking events or you're gonna go to pitch events or wherever else you network and you're gonna find the right people or you're gonna find someone online, kind of network there. But the first major hurdle was just being honest with yourself and saying, you know what man, I'm gonna be This is gonna be much better if I find find some help. And the thing that I've said countless and countless times to new newer entrepreneurs, and something I wish I learned years ago, it took a long time for me to kinda get over my own ego.
Speaker 2:But I With partners, this is the simple fact and the only way to know this is experiencing it for yourself is these three things. When you have partners, you will have more fun, you will make more money, and you will have more margin than without. This is very important, you will make more money. That's typically the first issue is like oh if I partner I have to give you an accurate way. Exactly.
Speaker 2:You'll make more money.
Speaker 3:Well that's a huge I think that's what people think. Like, they think, I've got this great idea, and start kind of thinking about it, then you think, Well, if I have to share this with somebody else, that's going to cut it in half. And then if we bring someone else in, it's going to cut it, again and then again and again. So how did you overcome that? And maybe just give us a picture of how it ended up being more successful for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's because unless you're like the magical unicorn, where you can apparently do all things, but all at the same time, generally, you're going to be a specialist. You're going to be primarily a developer, or primarily a designer, or primarily a business and operations person or primarily a sales, know, etcetera etcetera etcetera. Yeah. And a startup is so It's so important for a startup to have specialists that are kicking serious butt at being amazing and excellent in particular areas than a bunch of generalists doing everything mediocre. Because no investment company, especially in joint venture capital, none of those investors are gonna want to invest in mediocre people.
Speaker 2:They're going to want to invest in specialists. People who are at the top of their game. Who are very clear about the things that they're exceptional at and also very clear about the things that they suck at. Me, know historically, I'm a developer. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But if I'm honest and I'm very open about this, I'm not that great of a developer. Mhmm. And I'm okay with that. What I'm really good at is vision casting and coaching and leading teams.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Even though I have a great history, a very great history in in product development and actual software architecture.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Man, my partner Tom is one of the best software programmers I have ever met and he's just He makes me look really stupid. Thank God for that because he our core products and and makes sure that we're we're on time. And then Jared, my department, he said he's a designer. He can do front end development better than than most people. Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's a designer and that's what we ask him to do. And guess what happens when he specializes? Guess what happens when Tom specializes? Guess what happens when I specialize? We have more fun doing the things that we were uniquely made to do and then there's less burnout.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Every startup experience burnout. So I say when you guys have specialists within your organization, man you're going go further faster which means you're going to grow faster. You're going to make more money faster. If you had to give up a couple of percents for it, trust me it's much better to have you know a 100% or half of something than a 100% of nothing.
Speaker 2:You know, even when you get even larger scale. Yeah. When you get into the millions of dollars in terms of valuation like at that point it's all the same.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So if you are just building a side project, maybe there's someone out there listening right now And they said, You know, I've been building this for two years and I still haven't released anything. And, you know, I'm finally able to realize that I need some help. What should they do as someone that has, you know, maybe not a lot of capital and maybe what could they offer? How would they go and find somebody and convince them to partner up?
Speaker 2:I would look that person, that mythical person that you just shared, I would look straight and in the say, the biggest enemy to your continued advancement for this product is yourself. You haven't launched because there's something within this context. An incredible amount of inertia that you can't overcome without help. Mhmm. That's where you have to first you have to say, I admit it.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna be able launch this product. What you then do is then you squarely set an expectation for how much you're willing to give away. What does mean for me? What is what is it what does it mean for me to give away half of the company to make sure that my vision is secured and my vision is actually implemented?
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:How far will I go if I'm so in love with the idea of customers touching and feeling and using my product and sitting on the subway and seeing someone across from me boot up their iPhone and use my application? How satisfying that would be to see that. Mhmm. Is it worth 10% of the company? Is it worth 90% of the company to give away?
Speaker 2:I think it requires a little of introspection. For me, you know, that scenario of being able to see some of our customers who walk in our doors, who come to some of our meetups and say, John, Tom, Jared, Chris, I have been using your product for years.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And just the fact that they can say that, I gave away the vast majority of my company for that. Yeah. And that I'm so And guess what? We're still doing great financially. I still get to pay my mortgage and my kids get everything they need.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's what I say is you have to have internal conversation. How much are you willing to give away to make sure, to ensure that that product, that business sees the light of day? I can take some time to kind of ruminate about.
Speaker 3:Yeah. There's so much more we could talk about but I think we'll end with this and that is you touched on this a little bit but how do you find good people? How do you find good partners? You've found some people that you'd say are your best friends. How do you find good people and partner with them?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Finding good people is an art and a science kind of both in the same nut. But I think there's a lot of wisdom in experimenting with people just as you would experiment with an idea. All of the guys that I know are my best friends and my general partners. I've experimented with them and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2:I contracted and worked with Jared our designer on a couple of side projects for some clients and just got a feel for who he is, what his character's like, how he meets deadlines. If he was someone that I could trust. Chris, we actually met on kind of the blog comment layer. He started trolling my blog years ago and he commented and disagreed with me and I was like, yeah I'm gonna spam this guy. I was able to eventually meet up with him and test the quality and character of who he was.
Speaker 2:Pardon me, our first official meeting was at Taco Bell on a super cheap date. Forgot my wallet. He'll never let me forget that I forgot my wallet. He had to end up paying some of my tacos Yeah. At Taco Bell.
Speaker 2:And then And so we just continued meeting. So I get a feel for how the way he develops products, his software development skills, and also his heart. Yeah. You know, and eventually we became such great friends that you know I moved my entire family to his basement for for a year and some change. And then Tom same thing you know.
Speaker 2:And so you you you I think you build relationships just as you would friends. Mhmm. See who they are. See see what they're about and see not only do they have the functional skills, but do they like you? Know?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Do I like them? Can I could I sustain a relationship? A serious because you know, startup relationships are serious stuff. Like you're literally married to these people.
Speaker 2:To see if it works out.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Hey John thanks so much for coming on the show. Where can people find you? Where are a few of the places people can find you online?
Speaker 2:Well I try to simplify things The best way to find out the stuff that I'm actively working on is just my landing page and that's just my name John. John. Do. You can just go there and there are just links to some of the projects I'm involved with right now.
Speaker 3:Perfect. Well thanks again for being on the show. We'll have to come you have you come back on again in the future.
Speaker 2:Justin, thank you so much and then of course Kyle, thank you so much for your time as well. This has been really cool and to be honest there's some things I shared on this kind of podcast that I've really never talked about so this is kind of a unique podcast.
Speaker 3:Awesome. Well looking forward to talking to you again.
Speaker 2:Alright, thanks Justin.
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