00:00:00:00 - 00:00:28:20
Wade
Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of the ProfNoctis weekly show. I'm Evan and I'm Wade, aka Professor Noctis, and on today's show, we are really excited to be interviewing Matt from Image Studios, the developer of video game fables. Video game fables was one of my favorite games from 2022, and we're really, really excited to not just talk about the development of the game, but also the developer behind the development of the game.

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Wade
So without further ado, let's dive in.

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Wade
Hey, everybody. We are excited.

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Wade
To welcome a guest to the show today. we have Matt from Momiji Studios. the creator.

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Wade
Of video.

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Wade
Game fables. video game fables was released in 2022, right?

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Wade
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Wade
Okay. And it was one of my absolute favorite games when it came out. I was reviewing for the Pixel's website and, it it was absolutely one of the biggest surprises, most charming surprises of that year. And I am delighted that here on the two year anniversary of that game, we have Matt, here with us. How are you doing, Matt?

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Matt
I am doing good. I'm excited, very, very excited. As we were talking about before. I'm thrilled and honored.

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Wade
Matt, you and I have talked a lot on Twitter and social media, over the last couple of years, but this is the first time that we've actually talked to, like, face to face and voice.

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Wade
So this is wild and it's. Yeah. And I gotta.

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Wade
Say I'm, I'm fangirling a little bit.

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Wade
Just because it's like I have like played your game and I love your.

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Wade
Game and like.

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Wade
You're what you're like the first devs.

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Wade
That I've ever like, talked to. So I'm, I'm honored that you said yes to to this conversation. So thank.

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Wade
You. Yeah.

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Matt
The fan girl is mutual. I'm a big fan of your channel. I'm obviously a very big Final Fantasy fan. I got the I don't know I don't know if you saw this. I got this to prove it.

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Wade
Oh my gosh that's awesome. Oh my god.

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Matt
So you you might say I'm a little bit of a fan.

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Wade
so yeah. Oh my gosh. So for our audio.

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Wade
Listeners, he.

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Wade
Just showed a.

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Wade
V tattoo from Final Fantasy nine. That's v v, right?

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Wade
Or is it just generic like me? Okay. V v. Yeah.

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Wade
casting fire for Roger or something. Oh, man, that looks.

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Evan
Dope on a full sleeve. It looks awesome.

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Wade
Oh, yeah. That's so sleeve.

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Evan
Done. Or do you just.

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Matt
It's just it's just down to there, so. Yeah.

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Evan
Okay. So so far.

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Matt
That. Yeah. So I am a Final Fantasy fan. So I'm a fan of your channel. So I'm also I'm meeting a celebrity right now. So this is really cool.

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Wade
Oh my.

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Wade
Gosh. Well the feeling is mutual. my friend, so since you brought it up, we've got some things that we're going to get into. But since your arm brought it up, how are we feeling about this idea of a Final Fantasy nine remake? Are you into this idea, or is it like, no.

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Wade
Boy, oh boy, oh.

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Matt
Boy, I, I think about it every day and I'm very excited. yes, I, I think about it all the time, and it does not help that there are constant rumors and leaks about it, and they need to relax because I'm trying to like, I'm trying to set my expectations down, not get like too excited, invested in it.

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Matt
But every day there's a new one coming out, some leakers talking about it, I don't know, it's.

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Wade
It just feels too good to be true. So I had to ask.

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Wade
I'm I'm hopeful. I'm excited. I hope it's a real so it'd be awesome.

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Wade
All right, Evan Munch, kick us off. Okay.

00:03:21:05 - 00:03:43:26
Evan
Matt, thanks again for joining us. And, we're going to get to the the did to the game and what it's like to be a dev. But we kind of need to know, like where you came from. So our question to get us started is this what was the first game that you can remember just kind of being captivated by, like maybe when you were a little kid, but like, what's one that you just got like totally lost it.

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Matt
Yeah, I, I've been playing games since I was about three years old. My parents told me I was playing Mario Brothers for NES. I'm, you know, that old.

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Wade
And.

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Matt
I think I don't necessarily remember playing that when I was three years old, obviously. But I remember playing it like later on in life, and it was just like such a familiar thing to me. Like the game was kind of ingrained into, like my consciousness essentially, because I played it in my developmental years. I would say, though, aside from that, one of the first games that I just really remember, just like being this like presence was Mario Brothers three.

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Matt
Oh, it was just such, such a magical game. Like, there's just so much crazy stuff in there. And it was just, you know, you imagine you're a kid in the 90s and your frontal lobe is developing and you're seeing, like, these crazy things, the raccoon suit and all this, like, it's just the world are crazy. The big world.

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Matt
It's just I feel like that's the first thing I really remember being like, oh, video games are kind of cool. I like this, you know what I mean? yeah. And I would say that, like, the next two that come to mind were Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior, which is Dragon Quest one for NES. my cousin, he was getting rid of some NES game, and he gave me like a pile of, like maybe ten of them or something like that.

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Matt
And I really wanted to play Dragon Warrior, and I really want to play Final Fantasy. And at first my parents were like, I don't know, those look kind of scary because like, if you look at the box was like a big dragon and stuff, it's kind of spooky, right? but they eventually let me play it and I just, like, fell in love with RPGs at that point.

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Matt
And I started seeing, like, you can tell like a story through video games because, you know, Mario Brothers three, it's like, you know, there's not too much there. and, you know, granted, like Dragon Dragon Quest one and final or like Dragon Quest one in particular, don't have like a ton of story going on. It's more just like, events happening around you, essentially.

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Matt
but man, just playing like Final Fantasy and seeing, like, this crazy story and realizing, oh, you can, like, tell a story with these pixels on this CRT screen. Like, you can, like, have emotions, like, come through the screen like that, like not through a movie or a cartoon or something like that. So I would say those are kind of like my start up, like love for gaming, essentially very young.

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Matt
I was probably like five when I played, Final Fantasy.

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Evan
It's such a great list.

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Wade
And for a five year old, that's that's pretty challenging.

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Matt
Yeah. I mean, maybe like five, six, seven. But around that time, like, I remember I'm, I'm picking that up, I do I definitely remember it. So yeah.

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Evan
I've been a really good reader at.

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Wade
That point. Yeah. yeah.

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Matt
Yeah, I was a pretty good reader.

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Wade
Yeah.

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Matt
and it's funny because I, I actually distinctly remember as well playing Final Fantasy and my other cousin was over, and he's a lot older and he's like eight years older than me. And he had to show me about like, buying equipment and stuff because I was wondering why I kept dying to those, goblins outside. I was like, what is going on?

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Matt
Like, why am I so bad at this? And he was like, oh, you got to go buy equipment. I was like, what does that even mean? And it's weird to think about that now. Like not understanding own equipment RPG. But, you know, that's how young I was. I still remember that.

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Wade
Oh, and yet I need an older brother for Baldur's Gate three in that same way.

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Wade
Like, I feel like you're wrong. Yeah, I could.

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Matt
Be that older brother. I would.

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Wade
Love you. Could I? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Matt
I played in D2, so like, I, I know the, I know the ropes a little, a.

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Wade
Little bit.

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Wade
After 30 hours I feel like I'm hitting a groove, but, Oh my gosh.

00:07:04:26 - 00:07:05:04
Wade
but.

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Wade
You know, when you're, when you're five years old, I mean, these stories are so, like, incredible, right? And so you're, you're watching these things and to see how the Final Fantasy series and the Dragon Warrior Dragon Quest series has evolved, can you ever could you have ever imagined that we would see some of the stories that we are currently seeing from those text based sort of things?

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Wade
What's what what.

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Wade
Is, been your experience with these two franchises over the the years? Have you stuck with them falling off?

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Matt
Yeah. Dragon Quest I, I pretty much kind of fell off for years and years and years, like, I wasn't. I never even knew, like, Dragon Quest, like, I think it was two, three and four were on any. Yes. Is that correct? I didn't even know existed.

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Wade
Yeah.

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Wade
Go for. Yeah.

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Matt
I don't think it was actually until Dragon Quest eight. Until I started playing again.

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Wade
That is the.

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Wade
One that got most people back to be honest. Yeah.

00:07:59:11 - 00:08:18:18
Matt
Yeah, it was kind of the big one. so that's when I kind of got back into it. I'm still not like a huge fan as much as, like Final Fantasy. It's not as much like my vibe, I guess. I really like nine. I would love to see a nine remake with full multiplayer, because I didn't have cool friends growing up and I never got to play Dragon Quest nine multiplayer on the yes, and I was very sad about that game.

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Wade
Their big save, so.

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Matt
Maybe I can make up for that now, but Final Fantasy man, I've I've been there from the start until now. So, you know, I'm 35 years old, so pretty much the last 30 years or so I've been played every game. A lot of the spin offs. I'm a huge fan. Like I said, obviously I have a thing permanently on my body to kind of prove it.

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Wade
Yeah, that was also very.

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Matt
Expensive, I should add. And painful.

00:08:42:04 - 00:08:44:26
Wade
it was I don't know, it's just. Yeah.

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Matt
Kingdom Hearts is another big one for me. I'm a huge fan. Yeah. So I got, you know.

00:08:50:19 - 00:08:55:14
Wade
I got Keyblade. Yeah. I just keep playing. It's okay. Yeah.

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Matt
Not that you have to have a tattoo to be a fan of a game. I shouldn't say that, but,

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Wade
Yeah.

00:08:59:16 - 00:09:02:22
Evan
So it definitely adds to the fandom, though I.

00:09:02:29 - 00:09:04:01
Wade
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for.

00:09:04:05 - 00:09:06:06
Evan
Like, a game, no pun intended.

00:09:06:08 - 00:09:07:25
Wade
Yeah.

00:09:07:27 - 00:09:18:20
Matt
but yeah. So I've been a Final Fantasy fan the whole time. I've seen its ups and downs and severe downs, and I know you and me way we could. We could argue about Final Fantasy 15. I think that's like our.

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Wade
That's where we always. That's where we're.

00:09:20:23 - 00:09:27:29
Matt
Enemies. That's where it's not. Because Final Fantasy 15 is like my bottom two final Fantasy. And it's like you're obviously.

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Wade
It's one of my top. I mean, yeah, yeah.

00:09:31:12 - 00:09:50:21
Wade
but it's also rooted in a very specific moment in time for me, you know? And so that's what I think's interesting about a lot of these games. You know, a critically acclaimed game is only as good as the experience that somebody has with it. Right. And a bad game is only as bad as the experience somebody has with it.

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Wade
And for me, 15 one of the best experiences of my life. But there was a lot going on outside of the game. Now, I always say it's probably a 6 or 7 out of ten. objectively, but for me it's a ten out of ten.

00:10:04:07 - 00:10:15:11
Matt
Yeah. Which is a big thing people don't. People have lost nowadays. It's like not understanding the game can be, you know, seven out of ten. It's still could be your favorite game. It still could be a masterpiece to you.

00:10:15:14 - 00:10:16:26
Wade
You know, but those of us.

00:10:16:26 - 00:10:29:29
Wade
That grew up in the s s s eras, I mean, we we were forced to play bad games. We would rent bad games or buy bad games, get bad games for holidays and stuff, and we're stuck with them for a few months.

00:10:29:29 - 00:10:33:21
Wade
Right. I was it was a gamble. What's the worst.

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Wade
Game that you loved when you were growing up?

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Matt
Oh man, I, I liked a lot of bad games. I'm trying to pick one in particular I like.

00:10:42:23 - 00:10:46:08
Wade
I usually, oh my God, you evil.

00:10:46:08 - 00:10:48:06
Matt
Yeah. It has amazing music that.

00:10:48:08 - 00:10:49:27
Wade
You believe is great. Yeah.

00:10:50:00 - 00:10:58:25
Matt
one that comes to mind and I wouldn't say I liked it, but I obsessed over it was highlighted for NES. That game is hot garbage.

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Wade
And I yes.

00:11:01:18 - 00:11:11:14
Matt
And I there was a period where I just wanted to beat it so bad I never did. I hated it as the whole time I was doing it, I hated it. I was like, this is miserable, I have to do this. And I never did it. But,

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Wade
So a lot of times.

00:11:12:07 - 00:11:24:12
Matt
I like play games. Like, especially when I was younger, I would play a game and I would just be like, I want to finish this and see it through. Not necessarily that I'm enjoying it. but yeah. So, I can't think I'm trying to think of like, more.

00:11:24:15 - 00:11:26:25
Wade
Oh my gosh, I just I just.

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Wade
Googled this and I remember this game.

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Wade
That was terrifically bad. But I do have some good and it's off this game. it was like it was like.

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Wade
Dragon Warrior, but not, like.

00:11:42:07 - 00:11:42:23
Wade
Yeah.

00:11:42:26 - 00:11:52:01
Wade
Almost like, I don't, I don't know, it wasn't like a, I don't know, a B-list or sort of thing, but it wasn't, it didn't have the polish.

00:11:52:04 - 00:11:55:04
Wade
Right. yeah. That's Yeah.

00:11:55:06 - 00:12:00:17
Matt
And it had that one song that played, no matter where you were for the entire game, and it was like a it was like a six second loop.

00:12:00:19 - 00:12:02:13
Wade
It's that. Yeah.

00:12:02:15 - 00:12:04:19
Wade
We have really developed since then have.

00:12:04:23 - 00:12:06:17
Wade
Been I mean, there.

00:12:06:17 - 00:12:12:13
Evan
Was that element of and I think also experience at some. But you do kind of hate play some games because you were.

00:12:12:18 - 00:12:12:28
Wade
Yeah.

00:12:13:02 - 00:12:21:04
Evan
Back then and I remember my brother and I would get so mad trying to beat these games and we'd be yelling and mad and my mom would.

00:12:21:04 - 00:12:29:29
Wade
Say, are you having fun? Having fun, kid? Yes. Yes, mother, we're having fun.

00:12:29:29 - 00:12:33:17
Evan
She goes, it doesn't seem like it. And then she would say the dreaded lines.

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Wade
Why don't you take a break? Oh my God, did we have the same mom? No.

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Matt
Mom, relax. I want to suffer. Let me suffer in peace. oh, my God.

00:12:46:00 - 00:12:51:05
Wade
I was just like, no. And she was right. She was.

00:12:51:08 - 00:12:55:13
Wade
And now her voice lives on in the Nintendo systems where they tell.

00:12:55:13 - 00:12:58:06
Wade
Us to take a break every now you.

00:12:58:08 - 00:13:00:03
Evan
Can go away with all that.

00:13:00:06 - 00:13:02:07
Wade
yeah, I moved out.

00:13:02:08 - 00:13:05:27
Matt
I moved out of my parents house. I'm not trying to have have that again.

00:13:05:29 - 00:13:11:00
Wade
Exactly. Are you sure you're having fun with my brother? That's just.

00:13:11:00 - 00:13:15:22
Evan
Suffering. Play games like trying to play Lion King like and be. Thank you.

00:13:15:22 - 00:13:25:10
Wade
Oh Lion King on second and ten died. Why would you do that. Don't even get. That's a game. But I hate that I love yeah the ostrich part.

00:13:25:10 - 00:13:26:21
Matt
I'm assuming we all remember that.

00:13:26:21 - 00:13:30:08
Wade
Yeah. I can't wait to be king. Oh, that hitbox.

00:13:30:08 - 00:13:31:29
Matt
Is where something else on that game.

00:13:32:06 - 00:13:32:20
Wade
Really.

00:13:32:20 - 00:13:33:28
Wade
Were. They really were.

00:13:34:00 - 00:13:34:26
Evan
The whole thing is a lie.

00:13:35:01 - 00:13:37:00
Wade
But I think it. Do you think that.

00:13:37:00 - 00:13:44:15
Evan
Growing up in the time that you did gave you a different appreciation for games and like a certain patience for certain mechanics compared.

00:13:44:15 - 00:13:47:29
Wade
To, yeah, modern games like what do you definitely. What do you.

00:13:47:29 - 00:13:59:08
Evan
See in that, especially when you're thinking about making a game and you're thinking about how you want to explain the ideas. Do you think back to when we suffered as children and you say they need just a taste of this, like it builds character?

00:13:59:08 - 00:14:00:03
Wade
Or do you feel the.

00:14:00:03 - 00:14:04:07
Evan
Need to really make sure that it's like a tiered experience as you go? Yeah.

00:14:04:09 - 00:14:33:26
Matt
I think, well, okay. For a video game, fables in particular, it's obviously a has so many tropes from older RPGs, particularly like, like Dragon Warrior, like Final Fantasy, Mario RPG, like a lot of those things in there. so one of my goals going into that was like, I want to make this with the humor of like, example would be like making fun of RPG tropes that are really annoying and things that happen in the game, but not make fun of them and then make you also do them.

00:14:34:01 - 00:14:50:06
Matt
Because that's not the frustrating for me. We like parody games when they're like, hey, remember this thing? That's really annoying? What if we made you do that? So for me, I might not succeed all the time, but anytime I wanted to do that, it was like, hey, remember this thing that's annoying. We're not going to do that and we're just going to make fun of it.

00:14:50:12 - 00:14:53:04
Matt
So that's one thing I did focus on. So like I kind of kind of tie into that.

00:14:53:04 - 00:14:55:00
Wade
Yeah, yeah.

00:14:55:03 - 00:15:06:21
Wade
And that comes out so, so many times throughout that game. as, as somebody that almost I mean, I have a degree in JRPGs. It feels like, I and maybe actually but.

00:15:06:24 - 00:15:09:01
Wade
I appreciated.

00:15:09:01 - 00:15:15:23
Wade
All of those nods and the way that you subverted those expectations in that game. it's like, oh, this.

00:15:15:26 - 00:15:16:09
Wade
This is a.

00:15:16:09 - 00:15:27:26
Wade
jRPG, but it's not just another jRPG. And that, to me was like the winning formula. You could have done that for 16 more hours. And I was like, yeah, let's do let's just keep on going. So,

00:15:27:28 - 00:15:30:01
Wade
It was so good. Where did you get the.

00:15:30:01 - 00:16:00:26
Evan
Inspiration for the game in the first place? Because for those who haven't seen it or played it, it's hilarious and it's really well laid out and I have a lot of questions about it. But, specifically, it's kind of an RPG that blends a bunch of styles and it's got, a really fun kind of 2D, 3D graphics style where like, the characters are flat, like a Paper Mario type game, but then they exist in this 3D space at times with this really creative kind of turn based combat.

00:16:00:26 - 00:16:14:26
Evan
So you kind of take like all these little pieces of games and things that you really liked, and it sounds like you take the things that you didn't like and wanted to at least acknowledge that they existed, like, almost like a collective trauma that like you use to build trust with everybody while you got to write the game.

00:16:14:26 - 00:16:15:18
Wade
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:15:18 - 00:16:20:25
Evan
Where did the inspiration for the game itself come from?

00:16:20:28 - 00:16:41:13
Matt
just I mean, basically what we just said, just playing these old, old, terrible RPGs growing up and also playing good RPGs growing up and I just want to make something that was like, really funny. First of all, because I'm kind of a clown. And so, like, I want to make something funny. I wanted to make something that took things about RPGs that I didn't like and fix them.

00:16:41:13 - 00:16:59:19
Matt
That was one things going into it. So like, for example, I have a theory about turn based games for people. I think most people think they don't like turn based RPGs, but there's just things that we hold onto in them that make them not fun. And I'm not saying there's some people who would never like a turn based RPG no matter what.

00:16:59:19 - 00:17:22:05
Matt
That's not what I'm saying. So like, there's some people are just, you know, they're never going to like and that's okay. But I think a lot of people think they don't because they've played bad ones. And there's a lot of things that we need to fix. And the number one thing I think, in my opinion, is speed and pacing of it, because I think if you're sitting around watching the same animations over and over again, you know, you're playing final fancy nine summoning arc for a two minute and 32nd cutscene, like that kind of stuff, you know?

00:17:22:05 - 00:17:38:14
Matt
So that was all my things going into too. Like, any animations had to be fast, like I. I never like set a number for it, but I made sure any like spell animations were under a certain amount. I would like if it felt like it would drag out a little bit. See, for like the 30th time when I'm testing it, I would just make it faster.

00:17:38:17 - 00:17:46:14
Matt
so I made sure like animations were fast. I made sure you were reward it for taking turns quickly, but not punished if you didn't with the timer system.

00:17:47:19 - 00:18:07:04
Matt
So yeah, things like that. For example, I just want to fix things about turn based RPGs and try to make something that fixed all those issues, in my opinion. so yeah, I think I did a lot of things for that. Like a lot of the things, if you think about it now, you might see some things are like, oh, that was probably a workaround for something that someone might not like about turn based RPGs.

00:18:07:06 - 00:18:29:09
Evan
It comes out right from the beginning because I tolerate turn based RPGs. I don't love them. I like I have played plenty, I've seen them all the way through, but it's not my favorite style. and I really loved two specific things that you did that I thought were really creative the timer system. And that character has a name and I don't remember it.

00:18:29:10 - 00:18:30:13
Evan
What's that?

00:18:30:16 - 00:18:32:09
Matt
Rico Rico named after a friend of mine.

00:18:32:09 - 00:18:33:08
Wade
Yeah, yeah. Okay.

00:18:33:08 - 00:18:33:15
Evan
There you.

00:18:33:15 - 00:18:42:06
Matt
Go. He's a sassy. Sassy? Oh, no. Wait. Rico is the save clock. The timer. I don't remember his name. I'm fake. I'm a fake.

00:18:42:08 - 00:18:45:23
Wade
Name. There's a lot of characters. There's a lot of characters. We'll we'll dub.

00:18:45:23 - 00:18:47:04
Evan
It in in post where it's like.

00:18:47:04 - 00:18:48:02
Wade
Yeah.

00:18:48:04 - 00:18:52:28
Matt
Yeah, I believe it was Rico's uncle. Yeah. I think if I remember the dialog, it was his uncle.

00:18:53:03 - 00:18:57:19
Wade
It's a family of clocks. So that is itself. They just cut like a clock. Yeah.

00:18:57:25 - 00:19:01:18
Matt
The compass as well. The compass was like its cousin or something like that.

00:19:01:18 - 00:19:03:21
Wade
Yeah. That's right. So in the.

00:19:03:21 - 00:19:23:00
Evan
Game, for those who haven't played it in those who are listening, if you take your turn expeditiously within a certain amount of time, you get benefit from it. So for people who get paralyzed and they're probably just going to do an attack anyways, it just encourages you to kind of keep the pacing up. And when you combine that with the animations, Matt did a really great job keeping you engaged.

00:19:23:03 - 00:19:28:06
Evan
And the second thing is this timeline that you've created up at the top of the screen.

00:19:28:08 - 00:19:38:11
Wade
I'm so glad that you brought that up. That is one of the most interesting and innovative pieces of this turn based system that I want every game to have nailed.

00:19:38:15 - 00:19:39:24
Wade
So, I mean, it was good.

00:19:39:24 - 00:19:51:12
Evan
So good. It feels so tight and intuitive and easy to use. And even if I get killed by those cyclones in that first zone over and over again, that is.

00:19:51:15 - 00:19:52:21
Wade
What there is there is a.

00:19:52:21 - 00:20:13:07
Wade
Particular battle with, multiple, like it's a boss battle with multiple enemies and, it's color coded and there's math, but you really have to master that timeline in this one. Now, for those of you listening, I just said there's multiple bosses in math. It is a bonkers boss fight, but it is one of the most memorable.

00:20:13:09 - 00:20:14:16
Wade
That I got it.

00:20:14:19 - 00:20:24:27
Wade
Yeah, it's a gantlet. And it really does make you think differently about turn based systems and about that timeline at the top. There's just, you know, up to that point, you've.

00:20:25:03 - 00:20:25:11
Wade
You've.

00:20:25:11 - 00:20:29:24
Wade
Used it, but here you are counting on it in some really interesting ways. And I.

00:20:29:24 - 00:20:31:24
Wade
Just what was your.

00:20:31:24 - 00:20:35:09
Wade
You're thinking, how did you come come up with those ideas.

00:20:35:15 - 00:20:37:02
Wade
Now? because like.

00:20:37:08 - 00:20:45:29
Wade
I mean, you're right that these are the things that make turn based kind of insufferable for a lot of people. And you found a way to make it compelling. Talk to us about that.

00:20:46:01 - 00:20:47:25
Wade
Yeah.

00:20:47:28 - 00:21:08:14
Matt
so I guess I guess I'll start with. One thing is, I wanted every boss to either, like my goal from the start was every boss needed to either break the battle system in some way or stack something vastly different from the battle system on top of the battle system. The only exception, I would say, is the very first boss when you fight Pallin.

00:21:08:17 - 00:21:27:13
Matt
That was a somewhat straightforward fight there. Was there were some tricks there with like having no having to watch how he laughed in the dialog to know if he's going to use magic or physical. So the first also kind of more like the first boss is like here, I want to make sure at this point in the game, you have mastered the standard parts of this battle system.

00:21:27:13 - 00:21:45:20
Matt
You understand the turn based battle system, understand that this game is focused around either magic attacks or physical attacks. You have to, pay attention to that. and then after that point, it's just bonkers and everything goes completely off the rails because I wanted every boss to either, like I said, break the battle system or stack something on top of it.

00:21:45:23 - 00:22:07:29
Matt
the timeline, I don't I don't know exactly where the timeline inspiration came from. I do know that. I particularly wanted that for certain boss designs I had in mind. So like a lot of the bosses utilize the timeline in a certain way. So it kind of came from wanting a way to have the player really think about when they perform their turns.

00:22:08:02 - 00:22:23:28
Matt
So it kind of came. I kind of work backwards. It's not like it came with a timeline that was like, well, let me fit this into boss fights. It was like I wanted certain boss fight designs, like the hero battle, where you have to, hit him and make him like Parry, and you have to make sure your turns lined up on the same, turn.

00:22:24:00 - 00:22:41:01
Matt
or, like you said, like the gantlet, which is, you have to, they completely change the timeline. They're numbered in color. You have to say, like, oh, when this guy's on the stage, he will nullify and he turns on red. Or, like, if you if you take a turn on a green turn when this guy, this one's on the stage, he's going to heal himself.

00:22:41:01 - 00:22:44:18
Matt
And then and one thing I liked about that fight that I did was.

00:22:44:20 - 00:22:45:27
Wade
You.

00:22:45:29 - 00:23:00:17
Matt
Hit control curveball. You layer because you would get two on the stage at the same time. You had to think, oh, well, now I have to worry about the number that's on the turn, whether it's odd or even. And I also have to make sure I don't put it on green or something like that. but yeah, so the timeline kind of came from these like boss fights.

00:23:00:17 - 00:23:09:29
Matt
And I was like, well, how can I make these boss fights with a standard battle system? And it was kind of like, okay, well, timeline will do that, where you can choose where you place it on that timeline. Essentially.

00:23:10:01 - 00:23:35:17
Wade
I remember playing that boss battle and for the first time in 20, some odd years of playing RPGs and turn based systems and all this stuff I like, I had this notion that turn based battle is kind of like a puzzle game that you're trying to figure out, and this was just a perfect, hybrid of that. I felt in some ways I was playing like, something is as complex as, as Tetris.

00:23:35:20 - 00:23:42:15
Wade
And yet it was still like, I just had to figure it out and overcome. This thing is like Sudoku and turn based.

00:23:42:17 - 00:23:45:11
Wade
It's really fun. Yeah, really, really fun.

00:23:45:14 - 00:23:57:07
Matt
Yeah. Not to, like, spoil a lot, but for people listening, some of the other boss fights are there's one where you have a one thing I want to do as well, and this happened with a couple boss fights, was combining real time elements with the turn.

00:23:57:07 - 00:23:57:14
Wade
They.

00:23:57:19 - 00:24:03:23
Matt
Out to throw in that curveball. So like, the one was in the, the garbage dungeon, which I'll just call it.

00:24:04:27 - 00:24:07:00
Matt
Yeah. You're actually controlling that one.

00:24:07:00 - 00:24:08:15
Wade
Well, you're.

00:24:08:15 - 00:24:30:25
Matt
Controlling a third person shooter up on a cliff behind your battle, and you're switching between that and the turn based battle system. And the stuff happening in real time is actually affecting the turn based battle system. And that fight in particular. That's something I wanted to do, and it seemed like kind of like an impossible thing in my head because I was like, what if I could have real time elements affecting a turn based battle system?

00:24:31:01 - 00:24:35:11
Matt
So that one was like a big challenge for me.

00:24:35:13 - 00:24:36:21
Wade
what what's so.

00:24:36:21 - 00:24:41:02
Wade
Interesting about that battle in particular is that you.

00:24:41:02 - 00:24:41:20
Wade
Have.

00:24:41:27 - 00:25:06:07
Wade
It's clear that you have so many inspirations. This game has platforming elements. This game has action elements, puzzle elements, this incredible riff on turn based, and you've somehow brought it all together. I mean, we've talked a little bit about Mario three. We've talked about Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior Dragon Quest, but you clearly have a varied interest in video games.

00:25:06:09 - 00:25:11:14
Wade
what would you say that's accurate? Like, do you like a lot of different styles of games?

00:25:11:16 - 00:25:17:12
Matt
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, I have genres I don't really care for. I usually like racing games like sports games. But,

00:25:17:14 - 00:25:20:29
Wade
Unless you put Mario in it, you still had.

00:25:21:01 - 00:25:33:28
Wade
like a racer in this game, right? I mean, I guess it was like a Mario Kart riff. a little bit, yeah. but, you know, just just a nod to some of the most popular genres that you've that, that are out there.

00:25:33:28 - 00:25:35:10
Wade
I thought that was so, so.

00:25:35:10 - 00:25:38:13
Wade
Fun and so cool. in there.

00:25:38:15 - 00:26:03:28
Evan
I'm really curious about some of your creative process and kind of your workflow for how you take all of that and get it into a game. So as far as your process goes, where you find like inspiration, and when you get an idea for a lot of people who like, listen and engage with this channel like our creatives and creators, and they like to think creatively.

00:26:04:00 - 00:26:28:20
Evan
And so I think really speaking to different people about how they capture those moments where they feel inspired to do something, you have taken a lot of those and then somehow also put them into a game together. Can you talk us a little bit through what that looks like for you? Where's your inspiration come from? How do you stay disciplined enough to actually create something and not just have a bunch of random ideas, because it's a that brisket.

00:26:28:23 - 00:26:29:22
Matt
Yeah. So that brisket.

00:26:29:24 - 00:26:30:25
Wade
You're listening to, that.

00:26:30:26 - 00:26:34:08
Evan
Dog just jumped up to say hi. And brisket is very, very cute.

00:26:34:10 - 00:26:36:11
Wade
Very cute. Ten out of ten dog.

00:26:36:18 - 00:26:40:11
Evan
Do you want me to rephrase the question? Since brisket, put an exclamation point on it.

00:26:40:11 - 00:26:43:07
Wade
Oh, no, no, you're good. I guess.

00:26:43:09 - 00:27:00:14
Matt
Yeah. So I guess I don't know what you call it. My process is almost like a passive process. I kind of just like, let things come to me, and my brain works like a million miles a minute. And I'm not saying it like I'm super intelligent. I'm saying, like, I have bad anxiety. Do you know what I mean?

00:27:00:18 - 00:27:01:28
Wade
Just it's like.

00:27:02:02 - 00:27:25:12
Matt
So my brain is, like, always running, right? So, like, I will get, like a vague idea just pop in my head sometimes even like a dream or something like that. Like I'll just have some, like, weird, sometimes, like a very, like the real time thing. Like, you know what? If there was a real time affecting autonomous system, so I'll get, like, a vague thought and then I kind of grab a hold of that thought and say, okay, what could this mean?

00:27:25:12 - 00:27:50:05
Matt
How could you expand this? How could this actually look in a real material way? So yeah, like it's almost more of a passive thing. Like I don't really necessarily a lot of times sit down and like with a pen and paper and say, well, now think of three ideas like some people do it differently. But for me it's more like I take just a weird things that come to me and try to like, manifest them into something, and then I'll start writing out and saying like, well, how could this actually work in a real game?

00:27:50:05 - 00:27:53:13
Matt
Or like, does this make any sense? Or is there any way to do this?

00:27:53:15 - 00:27:54:07
Wade
Yeah.

00:27:54:09 - 00:27:59:21
Evan
You're almost asking is this possible and then challenging. Yeah. To make it possible.

00:27:59:23 - 00:28:03:08
Wade
Yeah. Yeah. That's where I'll just get.

00:28:03:10 - 00:28:20:18
Matt
Yeah. and even stuff for like more like the writing side, you know, like there's a lot of jokes and it's a goofy game. So sometimes I'll get just like some dumb thought in my head and I'm like, or I'll just, like, in, in the middle of the night, I'll, like, have some weird thought and I'll just be like, that's kind of funny.

00:28:20:20 - 00:28:22:06
Matt
you know what? Let me take these dogs out real quick.

00:28:22:08 - 00:28:31:05
Wade
Yeah, I'll come on. sorry about that. You're all good.

00:28:31:07 - 00:28:49:26
Matt
Yeah. So in terms of, like, writing and, like, the humor and stuff, like, one example I can think of is the celery monster. It's like, piece of celery with a chunk bitten out of it, and it just has, like, a high stability. It makes it move fast. It has running shoes on it. It's like hopping back and forth, like something dumb like that.

00:28:49:28 - 00:29:02:24
Matt
Literally just one day that just popped in my head like, oh, accelerate. And I was like, that's kind of funny. And then I'm like, oh, me write that. Yeah. So a lot of us do more, just like dumb stuff that happened to my head. And I'm like, let me make this into something.

00:29:02:27 - 00:29:03:25
Wade
Do you have.

00:29:03:25 - 00:29:06:18
Wade
An origin story for Pumpkin Spice?

00:29:06:20 - 00:29:08:25
Wade
This is one of the most.

00:29:08:25 - 00:29:17:10
Wade
Memorable bosses and areas that I can remember in a game. And I just like, how did you come up with this idea?

00:29:17:12 - 00:29:20:01
Matt
oh man, I don't know, honestly.

00:29:20:01 - 00:29:26:06
Wade
Like, okay, I didn't know if it was like, I guess Starbucks or, I don't know, I.

00:29:26:09 - 00:29:34:15
Matt
I mean, I'm trying to think if there was like something in particular, I think it was more I just I did just kind of manifested, honestly.

00:29:34:17 - 00:29:34:24
Wade
yeah.

00:29:34:24 - 00:29:57:22
Matt
I can't really think of a particular reason that came out, but I do know her, like, personality at least, kind of came from the idea of like, someone who didn't want to be there and is just showing up for the job as a boss. Okay. because one thing about the world for people don't know is like, you're playing in a stereotypical RPG world, but.

00:29:57:25 - 00:30:19:04
Matt
And when people hear that kind of like, oh my God, here we go. And it it's just kind of like a lazy thing where you, like I said, where you play through a stereotypical boring RPG without like a joke. So the joke is you're playing in this world, but you're not playing the RPG that's intended. Like the script gets ruined, so you're playing through the actual, like actors of the world that make up this RPG.

00:30:19:06 - 00:30:36:13
Matt
You're playing through them, trying to, like, get things back to normal. just for like context, people listening. So, and this is also something where they haven't had a player in decades, so everyone's kind of like old and washed up and like the dragon who had, like, a horde of, sapphires. He's now just like a straight up hoarder.

00:30:36:13 - 00:30:53:10
Matt
And he has, like, a hoarder's house. so it's like stuff like that where you're. It used to be a traditional RPG world, and now everyone's just old and out of practice. No one knows what to do when things go off the rails. so you meet characters who are like, they might have just been really into it, like pumpkin spice.

00:30:53:12 - 00:31:10:23
Matt
She was one of the bosses of this RPG story, but now she just like over it. She doesn't want to be there. She's just clocking in and you can tell she's like, let's get this over with. Like she's like she starts her like normal speech. She would give the hero and she's just like, whatever. Like she's like over it, you know?

00:31:10:25 - 00:31:14:08
Matt
so yeah, that was just kind of the vibe of her, but I can't think in particular.

00:31:14:09 - 00:31:15:00
Wade
Yeah.

00:31:15:02 - 00:31:31:06
Wade
For those that have not played the game pumpkin spice, like I need to describe pumpkin spice just briefly. pumpkin spice has a pumpkin head, wears flannel, and, I think that there is like a coffee somewhere in there, but I can't remember that.

00:31:31:06 - 00:31:35:22
Wade
But it is just this full blown autumn. Like.

00:31:35:24 - 00:31:59:21
Wade
What is it, fall girl, autumn or something like that. Whatever the trend is, it's like this boss manifests that and it is perfectly captured. Perfectly. but this also goes to, to so much of what this game does like. It does take these jRPG tropes, tropes, even what you just said, you know, the script is kind of been like, subverted.

00:31:59:21 - 00:32:16:12
Wade
What what an interesting take on the trope of defying fate in JRPGs. I don't know if that was intentional or not, but like you, that was one of the first things that I thought. And maybe it's because I'd been living in the world of Final Fantasy seven remake, where defying Destiny is like the whole thing.

00:32:16:16 - 00:32:18:01
Evan
It's all been defined.

00:32:18:01 - 00:32:27:20
Wade
It's all I talk about all the time I met video here, a video that I don't want much. I want to defy destiny. I have to defy lunch. And but for this.

00:32:27:20 - 00:32:46:07
Wade
Game, it really does kind of play into that a little bit. At least for those that know that trope. now, if you don't know that, if you're not going to think anything like that, it's just a fun story. But for those that get it, that's why this is such a great companion piece to other RPGs and JRPGs.

00:32:46:07 - 00:32:57:25
Wade
It becomes even more engaging and funnier the more you know about those genre, I think. I think it's really, really cool. It's obvious you appreciate the genre, enough to, parody it in some ways.

00:32:57:27 - 00:32:58:06
Wade
Yeah.

00:32:58:06 - 00:33:15:23
Matt
I mean, it's it's made by me. Someone who has loved RPGs since I was like five years old. For people who like RPGs and like, other people like it, too. But it's really made for people very much like me that played those RPGs growing up and want to see them kind of deconstructed and all that.

00:33:15:26 - 00:33:27:26
Wade
Now that that's an interesting, use there, you know, to say that those RPG tropes, deconstructing them and then reconstructing them into today's kind of sensibilities and stuff and that.

00:33:28:04 - 00:33:28:14
Wade
That kind of.

00:33:28:14 - 00:33:51:00
Wade
Begs the question, like, how have your interests changed, evolved, adapted over time? Like, I think all of us could say that we're not the same gamers. We were at seven years old, and certainly is different games and technology have come out. What are the things that you've noticed about yourself as a gamer that's played into that development side of things?

00:33:51:02 - 00:33:51:29
Wade
Yeah.

00:33:52:01 - 00:33:53:11
Matt
you mean like in particular? Like what? Things have.

00:33:53:11 - 00:33:54:08
Wade
Changed. Yeah.

00:33:54:08 - 00:34:01:22
Wade
Well, your interests, what's changed in your interest level as a gamer? What do you what do you find that you're interested in now?

00:34:01:24 - 00:34:02:14
Wade
Yeah.

00:34:02:16 - 00:34:36:19
Matt
I think I think what's interesting is that I'm, I'm interested in the same things that I used to like, but I'm also interested in seeing how those things evolve. And I'm not afraid of, like, things changing, really. And a lot of people like things to stay the same. But for me, it's interesting to see, like I'm very open to, for example, playing RPGs, which I've always loved, and seeing how they can evolve and grow and like something like Final Fantasy seven remake, where they took the ATB battle system and in my opinion, made it what the evolution of that system should be going forward.

00:34:36:19 - 00:34:39:21
Matt
Like that's like a big evolution of RPGs in my opinion.

00:34:40:24 - 00:34:56:12
Matt
So something like that, I guess. Fantasy seven remake is a very good example of all of this, because that's a game I love growing up. and I'm very open to the remakes. You know, a lot of people don't like any little differences in there. Like, you know, I was watching, you know, I watched a video about, like, the whispers and stuff.

00:34:56:19 - 00:34:58:08
Wade
Yeah.

00:34:58:10 - 00:35:18:20
Matt
But yeah, it's just like, I don't know, it's I welcome seeing things like evolve in games and genres and stuff. I welcome that and I, I love to see that and I love to see experiments and even if it's like an experiment that ends up horribly wrong, it's like still useful. You know, it's still useful to see like, oh, maybe we shouldn't do that anymore.

00:35:18:23 - 00:35:31:19
Matt
Or maybe that was the wrong direction. I think that's important. As long as people are trying to evolve things and keeping things in there that are important, they're like a core to it. Like, I, I don't know, I don't know if it really answered your question. That was a little bit of a ramble.

00:35:31:22 - 00:35:32:08
Wade
Oh, I like.

00:35:32:08 - 00:35:55:06
Evan
The theory, though. I mean, I think this idea of testing and exploring and experimenting as the way that we iterate and then invent new processes is, I think, a big thing that we like to talk about. We try and always get to the idea behind things with the show and and the conversations that we have. We want to talk about funny things and we want to observe what's happened.

00:35:55:12 - 00:36:21:25
Evan
But whenever we can catch on to the like core idea underpinning everything, that's how we kind of know we're in our sweet spot. And so you talking about this idea of experimentation, risk taking, those kinds of things, is exactly what we like to talk about. What do you think it looks like to take those kinds of risks as, like a developer because you tried, I think, 30 discrete different things that I can think of in your game.

00:36:21:27 - 00:36:28:20
Evan
so, like, are there things that you've played recently that you go, wow, that was a risk. And it absolutely worked out.

00:36:28:23 - 00:36:29:23
Wade
yeah.

00:36:29:25 - 00:36:37:10
Matt
I think one that was kind of a risk would be and one of my favorite games I played last year was the lasso. I'm not sure if you guys played I love.

00:36:37:10 - 00:36:39:00
Wade
That, yeah, yeah.

00:36:39:02 - 00:36:44:25
Matt
And I think that was kind of a risk. And one thing I remember, the developer, local bank, I'm not sure if their real name,

00:36:44:28 - 00:36:48:25
Wade
Mentioned was they didn't want to have.

00:36:48:27 - 00:37:08:08
Matt
They want to avoid doing, like, HP bars. Yeah. Or having HP because they said I think they were saying like, they could have made a traditional roguelike and just made it so like, yeah, you're playing poker, but you're using poker to like, damage an enemy. Yeah. And I think, I think he was saying something about like he wanted to make it just poker, but a roguelike, obviously, it's not just poker.

00:37:08:09 - 00:37:27:09
Matt
Like, you know, it's crazy poker, but, I think that's a good example, a very recent example, because that was a risk, like just making something that's very different and something new and something that was like might not get much traction. Like someone here is, oh, it's a poker game. Like I guess an example is me. I don't like poker.

00:37:27:09 - 00:37:47:18
Matt
I don't really like I don't really like, card games like that. I also don't like deck building games necessarily. So this is like everyone was talking about how good it was and I was like, okay, but this is like everything I don't like. Yeah, but it was like, maybe there's something to it. Like, maybe it has to be like hyped up for a reason.

00:37:47:20 - 00:38:07:23
Matt
So I was just like, wait for it to go on sale. I was like, whatever, I'll just buy it. And then I've put like put like 110 hours in that game now. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, I don't know, I think just sticking to what, you know is a risk. And it's a second what, you know, sticking to what you really want to do and not basing it on, like what you think is going to sell in itself is like the biggest risk you can take.

00:38:07:24 - 00:38:20:21
Matt
Yeah. And I think it also has the most reward, even if it doesn't like sell. Well, I think it's still rewarding. You're not really you're not really gambling on if you're going to be satisfied with what you made or not. You're gambling on sales numbers. You're gambling on.

00:38:20:21 - 00:38:23:16
Wade
Revenue. Yeah. but.

00:38:23:19 - 00:38:27:17
Matt
Yeah, I think just just yeah, that something like that is generally a risk.

00:38:27:17 - 00:39:00:18
Evan
But you just illustrated the like, tension of art and business side of video games. That is fairly unique to this medium is that, yes, it is art in itself, but it also has a like a really high overhead and producing a video game takes a lot of time and energy. And so I wonder, as you think about the indie scene and kind of where it's headed and the opportunities that you have to publish different kind of creative gameplay loops without having to have the, like full production budget for some of these things.

00:39:00:23 - 00:39:02:08
Wade
Where do you see.

00:39:02:08 - 00:39:06:21
Evan
Things headed for the next 5 to 10 years in this kind of indie scene?

00:39:06:24 - 00:39:08:10
Wade
Yeah.

00:39:08:12 - 00:39:14:27
Matt
I will say the indie scene is kind of in a good and bad place at the moment.

00:39:15:28 - 00:39:35:28
Matt
The bad place for is just simple, just oversaturation. And I've talked about a few times on Twitter and stuff. It's it's it's kind of a nightmare, honestly. and it's not that like, it's not that I don't, I don't want there to be less people making games. I don't want less indie games. But we also look at the reality of it, and I don't know what the solution is.

00:39:35:28 - 00:39:55:00
Matt
And like I said, I don't want the solution to be people not making games. I don't want that to be the solution. I don't know if there is a solution, but when you are working on a game, visibility is just almost impossible. Yeah, I think, I think when I released my game, there was like there was like at least 100 games released at the same week on steam.

00:39:55:00 - 00:39:56:06
Wade
Oh my goodness, something like that.

00:39:56:06 - 00:40:12:06
Matt
And on the same day that was like 50 plus or something like that. And I think, I think the last time I checked on steam, there's like this is a few years ago, two, there was like over 13,000 games released every year on steam or something like that. So it's just right now, I don't know where things are going to go.

00:40:12:07 - 00:40:30:26
Matt
I think I think the advantage the indie scene has that people do look for stuff that's different. I think with Triple-A, people look for things that are more the same. for the most part, like that's what sells. It seems like it's things are the same. Whereas in indie games it's things that are different that sell. and that's not always true.

00:40:30:26 - 00:40:50:07
Matt
Like a lot of times there's derivative stuff that does so well, but I don't know I don't know where it's going to go. It's kind of scary. As a developer. It's very scary because you can work for 3 or 4 years on a game and literally no one might ever see it because they're you just you just rolled a bad dice and you release on the same week as some other games on steam or something like that.

00:40:50:07 - 00:40:52:12
Matt
You know.

00:40:52:14 - 00:40:54:14
Wade
how do you you know, it's kind.

00:40:54:17 - 00:41:17:05
Wade
How do you mitigate that as far as finding games that you wouldn't ordinarily find? Right in the sea of 13,000, releases on steam in a year, how do you go about finding it, knowing much more about, like, the algorithm and how to deep dive into the steam library? Do you have any tips for us and our listeners?

00:41:17:08 - 00:41:37:19
Matt
Yeah. I guess for me it's mostly if there's like content creators that I like, I usually learn about games from them. I think every once in a while, like, honestly, a lot of my games I see are from like the directors and stuff like that. Like there's so many of them now we got like, you know, wholesome, direct, the summer games fast.

00:41:37:19 - 00:41:54:13
Matt
Like, you know, there's, there's all these there's kind of like more direct based on, like, convention and stuff. Now, I don't know, for me, I find games through those mostly like, I'll just watch, like a presentation and sometimes just skim through it or whatever and say, oh, this is cool. This looks cool. A lot of times it's word of mouth.

00:41:55:23 - 00:42:12:28
Matt
I think what is important, though, is having people, whether the content creators or friends or whatever, that like similar vibes as you. so, you know, if they're suggesting something to you that they know they're not just recommending it to you for, like a selfish reason, like they're not like marketing the game. They're not getting anything out of it.

00:42:12:29 - 00:42:23:03
Matt
It's people that you like the same things as you like for you like if you're talking about like some game that you like or something, I'm probably going to like it too, because we like a lot of the same stuff, you know.

00:42:23:05 - 00:42:28:22
Wade
Unless they're 15, 15. But yes, yes, I just you guys are like the fast to.

00:42:28:22 - 00:42:30:23
Evan
The furious where it's like, it's your party.

00:42:30:29 - 00:42:33:12
Wade
We just go. I just picture both.

00:42:33:12 - 00:42:36:08
Evan
Of you in that dumb car. I mean, cool car. Wait,

00:42:36:10 - 00:42:38:11
Wade
Cool car. Come on.

00:42:38:13 - 00:42:39:20
Evan
Part ways.

00:42:39:23 - 00:42:40:22
Wade
It's ridiculous.

00:42:40:22 - 00:42:42:12
Matt
Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.

00:42:42:15 - 00:43:08:02
Wade
I think that's an interesting, concept, though, because, you know, based on your relationships with other people on, on social media, content creation and stuff, it really is an interesting ecosystem. And we've never seen anything like this before. and like I, like you said, it's good and bad for the indie developer because, you know, 20 years ago, how could you market your game, right?

00:43:08:06 - 00:43:32:20
Wade
Like there was no social media content creation and influencers weren't really a thing. So there is an opportunity from personal relationship. And I think, you know, finding those content creators that vibe with the same things that you vibe with, you know, for, for all of us and all of our listeners, find the people that like the things that you like and then take their recommendations.

00:43:32:20 - 00:43:45:24
Wade
I mean, that, you know, it's the equivalent of going to blockbuster when I was a eight year old and finding a game being like, hey, that looks cool, let me, let me go home. Or somebody on the playground suggested this. Let me try it for the weekend.

00:43:45:26 - 00:43:49:26
Wade
So I kind of like that idea like that. It, it.

00:43:49:29 - 00:44:05:12
Evan
Nothing beats the Atari box. Advertisement. When you would play games, that was the biggest lie. When I was a kid, I'd be at my friend's house. They would have like an old Atari, and I'd pick up the box and I was like, oh my gosh,

00:44:05:14 - 00:44:07:20
Matt
It's got bad art on the front.

00:44:07:23 - 00:44:08:07
Wade
Yeah, it's.

00:44:08:10 - 00:44:11:25
Evan
The coolest game. And you like, plug it in and you're like.

00:44:12:02 - 00:44:15:10
Wade
And it's or or.

00:44:15:10 - 00:44:19:18
Matt
It just doesn't even work. There's Atari games that literally do not work.

00:44:19:21 - 00:44:23:14
Wade
Which is amazing. It's we've come a long way. You really did. Yeah.

00:44:23:16 - 00:44:26:17
Evan
Use your imagination. Which was which is wild.

00:44:26:19 - 00:44:47:13
Evan
All right, everybody, it's that time in the show where we're going to do our mini game stretch break. We're going to take a little bit of time. So listener, viewer, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, take a minute and stretch. Give yourself a break. Take care of your body and your soul. And we are joined this episode by our good friend Matt.

00:44:47:13 - 00:45:03:18
Evan
And I say hey to the people. Hello people. You're going to get to hear an interview with him pretty soon. He is the developer of video game fables. The interview is great. We're going to have a great time and you're going to get the opportunity to get to know him. When we hit our question from the bingo wheel of Vulnerability.

00:45:03:18 - 00:45:14:28
Evan
But before we do, we've got some theme music. Hit it, Wade, about giving up on la la la la.

00:45:15:00 - 00:45:16:05
Evan
Well,

00:45:16:07 - 00:45:17:27
Wade
We nail it every time.

00:45:17:27 - 00:45:37:12
Evan
It's single time. All right. So listener, viewer, you know the drill. And if you don't, then you're going to pick a number between 1 and 51 and 50. That's what's in the bingo wheel of vulnerability. That's the question that we asked from the geek therapy cards that wait, has their show them off for the YouTube people who would give a shout out to give you the honors.

00:45:37:12 - 00:45:40:03
Evan
What number do you want? One through 50. What's your guess we're.

00:45:40:03 - 00:45:41:19
Matt
Going to do? We're gonna do 22.

00:45:41:19 - 00:45:42:16
Evan
22, at.

00:45:42:16 - 00:45:47:29
Wade
Least eight. Oh my number. Yeah. 14.

00:45:48:01 - 00:45:56:12
Evan
I'm going to go 46. All right, Matt, if you tell me when to stop, I'll stop. Listener. You can hear the bingo wheel spinning. Right.

00:45:56:12 - 00:45:58:27
Matt
All right, all right, stop.

00:45:59:02 - 00:46:03:19
Evan
All right. Here we go. It picked one up. The ball is red.

00:46:03:22 - 00:46:06:16
Matt
I'm, like, unreasonably excited right now. I love gambling.

00:46:06:18 - 00:46:09:28
Evan
Oh, me do 27. You were saying? Oh, look.

00:46:10:00 - 00:46:11:05
Matt
Close. Got close. Dude, you.

00:46:11:05 - 00:46:14:16
Evan
Were so close. All right, 27. So we'd kick us off. Card number 20.

00:46:14:19 - 00:46:25:28
Wade
Oh, we've got it. Okay, so this question focuses on movies or TV.

00:46:26:01 - 00:46:46:23
Wade
imagine you are able to travel the universe in your own self made spaceship, capable of warp and light speeds. What would you name your ship? Who would you take with you? What items would you bring? What would the inside of your ship look like? And where would you journey? This is a big one. This is multifaceted, okay, multifaceted.

00:46:46:29 - 00:47:02:01
Wade
But basically you're on a ship. You can go anywhere. Lightspeed. What would you name your ship? Who would you take with you? What items would you bring? What would the inside look like and where would you journey?

00:47:02:03 - 00:47:09:05
Evan
This deep. So this is this is rough. Yeah. I think maybe, maybe, maybe we could, like, do a little round robin.

00:47:09:07 - 00:47:10:25
Wade
Okay. So each one you start.

00:47:10:25 - 00:47:15:07
Evan
With start with like one pick. And then because I can't keep track of all I know.

00:47:15:12 - 00:47:33:08
Wade
So I'll. Yeah I'll curate this. So the first question for us is again just to reiterate, imagine you were able to travel the universe in your own self made, self made spaceship capable of warp and light speeds. What would you name your ship?

00:47:33:10 - 00:47:44:17
Evan
Okay, I have a theme in mind. okay. Remind. I don't know the name. I have a really hard time naming things I'm going to answer. Then what would the interior look like?

00:47:44:19 - 00:47:48:03
Wade
Okay, you're going to start with number four. Okay, great.

00:47:48:06 - 00:47:50:11
Matt
You're making it more complicated now. Cool. Love that.

00:47:50:11 - 00:47:53:06
Wade
So we're going to answer number one. You answer number four and then we'll.

00:47:53:10 - 00:48:12:17
Evan
Cross go your way. And name it I okay. The vibe that I'm building off of is a like cottage core interior for my spaceship. So I mean like I'm talking like house plants and like, it's like organic, like.

00:48:12:17 - 00:48:14:05
Wade
Mid-Century modern, kind.

00:48:14:05 - 00:48:27:16
Evan
Of, but leather and brick and, like, everything inside. So I've got a very cozy, like, I'm talking, I've got a fireplace, I've got everything I want to be like. Like straight chillin while I'm traveling. Could you have.

00:48:27:16 - 00:48:29:01
Wade
Fireplaces in a spaceship?

00:48:29:01 - 00:48:35:14
Evan
I think I make it in your description.

00:48:35:17 - 00:48:37:21
Evan
Well, he really said, actually.

00:48:37:23 - 00:48:42:19
Wade
I travel in your self-made.

00:48:42:22 - 00:48:48:11
Evan
there wouldn't be explosions because there's no oxygen. I'm a doctor. Okay.

00:48:48:14 - 00:48:51:10
Wade
Have you named your ship?

00:48:51:13 - 00:49:04:22
Evan
I'm going to name it. You know what? No. You know what? Yeah, I'm going to name it the SS. Wade. Know when it explodes, travel or because of your fireman? It's who makes fun of my ship.

00:49:04:24 - 00:49:09:26
Wade
That's right. Okay, well, what are you guys? What would you name your ship?

00:49:09:28 - 00:49:12:08
Matt
Mine's going to be called the High Wind.

00:49:12:10 - 00:49:13:27
Wade
Oh. Great name.

00:49:14:02 - 00:49:16:16
Matt
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

00:49:16:18 - 00:49:29:06
Wade
Yeah. So cooking. That's your cooking? Okay, so what would I name my ship? I'm going to name it the Valkyrie, because that's the first name that came to me. but also, like, I like some mythology. So Valkyries.

00:49:29:06 - 00:49:34:11
Evan
I'm changing my name to the minnow. Okay.

00:49:34:13 - 00:49:44:29
Wade
I'm a little disheartened that I'm no longer than a okay. Number two. What would you take? Excuse me, who would you take with you?

00:49:45:01 - 00:49:47:24
Wade
Who would you take with you?

00:49:47:27 - 00:49:49:27
Matt
I would take Donald and Goofy.

00:49:50:00 - 00:49:53:08
Evan
Oh. That's good.

00:49:53:10 - 00:50:01:22
Wade
I see a trend. I see the Dorsch. Like you take Donald and Goofy. I would take Fisher and Daisy.

00:50:01:24 - 00:50:02:24
Evan
Oh, that's really good.

00:50:03:00 - 00:50:06:06
Wade
That's who would go with me. Those are my two dogs. Those are my two.

00:50:06:08 - 00:50:17:06
Evan
I would take precious Michael Jordan, so I could have somebody to compete against. Not the Michael Jordan. Just anyone named Michael Jordan.

00:50:17:06 - 00:50:21:07
Wade
You wouldn't think that Michael B Jordan. Michael.

00:50:21:09 - 00:50:32:20
Evan
And then now, actually, you know what? It's a whole ship of Michael's. I'm going to take Michael Jordan, Michael Bolton, Michael Phelps. I'm not this not the stars. Just people also.

00:50:32:20 - 00:50:36:29
Wade
Just people also named that. Yeah, I like it I like it.

00:50:36:29 - 00:50:39:12
Evan
They look like cottage core spaceship.

00:50:39:15 - 00:50:48:24
Wade
They they would, but we're not to that question yet. What items would you bring with you?

00:50:48:26 - 00:50:53:11
Wade
What items would you bring with you?

00:50:53:13 - 00:50:56:28
Evan
We have not usually. It's one question I know.

00:50:57:00 - 00:50:58:08
Wade
These are so many questions.

00:50:58:08 - 00:51:00:22
Evan
This is a bingo wheel vulnerability. I don't like it.

00:51:00:22 - 00:51:07:09
Wade
I don't know, like we're very vulnerable right now. It's so vulnerable. snack items. Would you bring.

00:51:07:09 - 00:51:09:21
Evan
Snacks? Lots of snacks.

00:51:09:27 - 00:51:11:13
Wade
Wouldn't that be included?

00:51:11:15 - 00:51:16:03
Evan
Like, I feel like, I don't know, in this twisted world where you're allowed to name things, not allowed to name.

00:51:16:03 - 00:51:18:08
Wade
Things, you're going to have a fireplace in your.

00:51:18:10 - 00:51:24:00
Evan
Ocean. Yeah. Who knows? It's not reasonable for me to say I would take snacks.

00:51:24:02 - 00:51:30:09
Wade
Well, yeah, snacks are a good idea. Snacks? Okay. Now, what would you bring?

00:51:30:11 - 00:51:50:00
Matt
I would bring something very practical that would help on. Help. in the ship, I would take, like, a very big, like, key looking thing, you know, maybe like a blade of sorts. Oh, kind of like a key. Like a large key. It's very essential if you talk to, like, like NASA, you know, it's a very normal thing with NASA.

00:51:50:03 - 00:51:51:00
Matt
Bring a large key.

00:51:51:02 - 00:52:14:09
Wade
Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, I love it. That's I see the trend where we are on. So that's good. I would bring I get bored so I would probably bring, honestly, if I could have Wi-Fi and bring like a PlayStation portal, I think I'd be set up because I could access Final Fantasy 14. I could like the.

00:52:14:09 - 00:52:17:12
Evan
Latency in light and warp speed.

00:52:17:14 - 00:52:26:01
Wade
Listen, listen. We the latency when we landed on the moon was curiously spot on compared to Wi-Fi of today, so.

00:52:26:06 - 00:52:32:17
Evan
Oh, okay. All right, all right, I get it. That's fine. Yeah, I can have a fireplace. You can have a WPS portal. Fine.

00:52:32:23 - 00:52:37:01
Wade
I can have Wi-Fi. Thank you. I'm bringing Wi-Fi and a portal.

00:52:37:04 - 00:52:38:16
Matt
But your bottle of Wi-Fi.

00:52:38:17 - 00:52:39:06
Wade
You're the model.

00:52:39:07 - 00:52:44:15
Evan
Wi-Fi. You're going to starve. You have to, well, have to team up. You have to. You can come over and have snacks.

00:52:44:18 - 00:52:48:06
Wade
Oh, thanks. Oh, this must cute. Come over and dock and then leave. Great.

00:52:48:09 - 00:52:50:19
Evan
I don't I don't have a hatch. I don't have a way. Okay.

00:52:50:19 - 00:52:58:07
Wade
This is this is your moment. Evan, are you ready? What would the inside of your ship look like? Question number four already?

00:52:58:10 - 00:52:59:15
Evan
Oh, I don't know.

00:52:59:18 - 00:53:05:05
Wade
The. Come on. Cottage core.

00:53:05:08 - 00:53:08:17
Evan
House plants. Lots of plants.

00:53:08:19 - 00:53:17:07
Wade
And lots of plants. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Matt, what would be inside. what would the interior look like.

00:53:17:10 - 00:53:21:06
Matt
it would look very blocky like as if it were in very gummy.

00:53:22:02 - 00:53:24:07
Matt
Which is also another normal thing for spaceships.

00:53:24:12 - 00:53:27:29
Wade
Totally normal. Yeah. Yeah. Like snacks.

00:53:28:02 - 00:53:32:27
Matt
That's true, that's true, that's true. Yeah. So yeah it's just blocky and gummy kind of you know the general vibe.

00:53:32:27 - 00:53:33:28
Evan
Amazing.

00:53:34:00 - 00:53:54:01
Wade
I love that I the inside of mine, I've been watching a lot of Fixer Upper late lately, a lot. And I think that, Chip and Joe just recently renovated a castle, and I think that I would definitely go for a castle esthetic inside. If we're if we're allowing fireplaces, then it might as well just also has a castle.

00:53:54:04 - 00:53:59:22
Evan
The casual nature with which you said just Joe. Like it's just. Yeah.

00:53:59:25 - 00:54:00:24
Wade
Chip and Joe, you know.

00:54:00:29 - 00:54:04:25
Matt
Well, it's funny because I have a, I have two, mechanics named Chippendale for my ship.

00:54:04:26 - 00:54:06:10
Evan
Oh, that's so true.

00:54:06:13 - 00:54:07:24
Matt
Yeah. So it's,

00:54:07:26 - 00:54:10:07
Wade
I got so excited. Now I see what this is.

00:54:10:07 - 00:54:14:23
Evan
Check check check. Chip in there.

00:54:14:26 - 00:54:19:23
Wade
Did you know that Silo Fest is on my birthday this year? That's Chip and Joe's festival. Okay.

00:54:19:25 - 00:54:43:27
Evan
Like, so glad you explained. What it was. I can think about is just. I always do this joke. I think it's from a YouTube video. My wife, whenever we talk about goofy because I just they did the scene where somebody did goofy as the lines from The Notebook and he's like, oh, I wrote you, aren't you? Every day, and it just kills me.

00:54:44:00 - 00:54:52:22
Wade
Okay. Final question. Where would you journey?

00:54:52:24 - 00:54:54:27
Evan
in an infinite universe?

00:54:54:29 - 00:55:00:05
Wade
Yeah. I'm going to the future.

00:55:00:07 - 00:55:02:00
Evan
Oh, the. Okay.

00:55:02:02 - 00:55:02:27
Wade
Yeah.

00:55:02:29 - 00:55:06:07
Matt
That sounds like a cheap answer. I don't know about that, but it's a cheap answer.

00:55:06:07 - 00:55:18:19
Wade
But it's my answer in the same. The same words with fireplace and cottagecore and gummy interior. Yeah. I'm going to the future.

00:55:18:22 - 00:55:25:24
Wade
All right, Evan, where would you would go?

00:55:25:26 - 00:55:38:26
Evan
I want to go to, like, another universe. Okay? I want to go check out.

00:55:38:28 - 00:55:41:07
Evan
I do, I want to go to Star Wars.

00:55:41:10 - 00:55:42:20
Wade
You want to go to Star Wars?

00:55:42:20 - 00:55:47:25
Evan
Okay, okay. Star Wars, real bad, but not too scary. Star Wars.

00:55:47:28 - 00:55:52:03
Wade
Yeah. Like, yeah, happy Star Wars. It's like Ewok Village.

00:55:52:03 - 00:55:55:24
Evan
I want. Yeah. At the end.

00:55:55:26 - 00:55:58:15
Wade
At the end where they're.

00:55:58:17 - 00:55:59:10
Matt
Not the massacre.

00:55:59:10 - 00:56:03:04
Wade
One. You have the massacre. Not. Good idea.

00:56:03:07 - 00:56:10:05
Evan
Okay, I just I have to I think it's like, take my Cubs course ship to Star Wars.

00:56:10:08 - 00:56:15:01
Wade
You would fit in and that you hope village. You come to my cottage. Teddy bears.

00:56:15:03 - 00:56:20:15
Evan
Hold on, I'm going to get you. I mean, to that I have. No, that I'm going to listen and I'm going to get you a poster. Here you.

00:56:20:15 - 00:56:23:24
Wade
Go. It's here. All right, Matt, where would you travel?

00:56:23:27 - 00:56:26:10
Matt
Oh, man. I would.

00:56:26:10 - 00:56:29:14
Evan
Probably.

00:56:29:17 - 00:56:40:08
Matt
I would go to Chipotle because all the Chipotle laser kind of far from me, like at least a half hour. And I don't like driving. So yeah, I'd go to a Chipotle.

00:56:40:11 - 00:56:52:24
Wade
I was not ready for Chipotle, but I hey solid choice. Yeah. Freaking solid choice. And I respect it because their food is so healthy. Yeah. Allegedly I love it I hate it a lot.

00:56:52:25 - 00:56:58:04
Matt
So yeah I just don't like driving. So I just go somewhere where I don't want to drive too. Oh my gosh mom.

00:56:58:07 - 00:56:59:03
Evan
There he is.

00:56:59:05 - 00:57:05:14
Wade
Like you landed. You're you're there. Wow. Oh you're in you're in Star Wars.

00:57:05:17 - 00:57:25:02
Evan
I got this at Pizza Hut at my best friend's birthday party when you had my God, Pizza Hut. And it was when they released for the listener. I'm holding up a return of the Jedi poster with wicked. The walk on it.

00:57:25:04 - 00:57:25:27
Wade
Wicked.

00:57:25:29 - 00:57:27:01
Evan
That's his name.

00:57:27:07 - 00:57:30:14
Wade
I don't know why I like I knew.

00:57:30:16 - 00:57:50:12
Evan
I'm a holiday combo. He and I had this poster and we were in sixth grade and I said to him, I said, when we're roommates in college, we can put this up on the wall in our dorm room. And that was what we always joked about. And then guess what? We're roommates in college. And okay, we had this poster up.

00:57:50:14 - 00:58:02:17
Wade
I was like, yeah, that is so cool. That's awesome. I was afraid I was going to take some kind of, like, disappointing turn where it was like, we never spoke again. But no, I'm glad that things worked out.

00:58:02:19 - 00:58:11:22
Evan
No way. I love having anyway. So yes, this is my rock poster. So anyway, so cool, that's our mini game match. This was the strangest. That was long.

00:58:11:22 - 00:58:13:05
Wade
Greatest and longest.

00:58:13:13 - 00:58:14:02
Evan
Break we have done.

00:58:14:03 - 00:58:16:13
Matt
That was so stressful. I am stressed.

00:58:16:13 - 00:58:22:08
Evan
Out. I that one know I I don't want to do any more like multi-tiered question.

00:58:22:11 - 00:58:24:12
Wade
Listen blame geek therapy, not me.

00:58:24:12 - 00:58:26:00
Evan
Like I would never I would never blame.

00:58:26:05 - 00:58:28:04
Wade
No for blame me, blame me.

00:58:28:06 - 00:58:34:19
Evan
Just I'm just saying we need a contingency plan like we need to pick. We did one of the. I just didn't even know that was possible.

00:58:34:22 - 00:58:40:01
Wade
I didn't either, but you know, ball don't lie. And you chose the bingo ball.

00:58:40:01 - 00:58:42:01
Evan
That's true. listener. Viewer. That's my.

00:58:42:01 - 00:58:42:07
Wade
Fault.

00:58:42:14 - 00:58:45:17
Evan
So, no, I think this was this is the most memorable one we've ever had.

00:58:45:18 - 00:58:47:02
Wade
It was very memorable.

00:58:47:04 - 00:59:03:01
Evan
All right. Thanks, everybody. Good luck. Get your stretches and take care. Stretch, stretch, stretch. Take care of yourself. 12 yoga. All right. We'll see you for the interview. You're going to see Matt again real soon. Bye bye.

00:59:03:01 - 00:59:27:04
Evan
so I have a few latent questions, that I have just, like, super curious about, that I couldn't squeeze in organically. Well, I just didn't want to get it. I have to know about the humor and the comedy and where you get your timing from in the way that you write the stuff in your games.

00:59:27:06 - 00:59:29:04
Wade
Because from the.

00:59:29:04 - 00:59:53:08
Evan
Animation style, like the way that you use the pixel on the eyes to accentuate the timing or like a side eye the way that you time up, like when a dialog box comes in, when it interrupts, when it doesn't. The way that the noises happen. You do a really good job of pacing that out and leaving space for like, somebody to laugh or chuckle with enough volume of jokes that you can kind of miss one and still feel like you're there.

00:59:53:13 - 01:00:03:19
Evan
Like your whole opening sequence was great and like, really well staged. And the game tends to, like, slow you down and then you're ready for more jokes. Where does that come from?

01:00:03:21 - 01:00:06:12
Matt
I guess I'm just the funniest person on Earth. I guess I.

01:00:06:14 - 01:00:11:10
Wade
Just, I don't know, I just to yeah.

01:00:11:13 - 01:00:34:24
Matt
Yeah. I mean, I've always been a clown. Like, I've always tried to make people laugh. Like my parents will tell you, like, ever since I was a kid. So I think. I think just having, I don't know, like having experience with just always trying to make people laugh growing up and like, kind of understanding from that experience, like having somewhat of a grasp on like time, like you said, like timing and like what makes people laugh.

01:00:34:24 - 01:00:40:17
Matt
It's kind of like, you know, basically I was like running a social experiment for the last 35 years. And then kind of.

01:00:40:19 - 01:00:41:06
Wade
Gathering.

01:00:41:06 - 01:00:57:27
Matt
Data from that, I guess. but yeah, I think it's just it's just my humor, I guess. And it's like, If it lands, it lands and I don't really care. Like, if people don't think it's funny, like, that's fine. Everyone has different sense of humor. anyway, I would take pieces from myself or like, people I knew.

01:00:57:27 - 01:01:07:29
Matt
Like, for me, I'm basically true. Like, I'm very impatient and, like, just in general, I'm an impatient person, and I can pretend to be patient, like, if I have to, like, I can do that.

01:01:07:29 - 01:01:09:04
Wade
But,

01:01:09:06 - 01:01:24:14
Matt
On the inside, I'm dying, you know? but yeah, just just like a it was a lot of me, basically, I would say me just being impatient or like, trying to get to the point or when someone is like, won't just get around to the point or they're beating around the bush for something. I'm like, just tell me what it is like.

01:01:24:14 - 01:01:28:04
Matt
Just let's just, you know, what are we doing here? You know.

01:01:28:07 - 01:01:28:24
Wade
and Nate.

01:01:28:24 - 01:01:47:26
Matt
He's just kind of like, he's like every weeaboo I've ever met, basically. And I love him dearly. And he's my son and I love him so much. And he's just he's just every like, nerd that is just, like, into a fandom and just it's his whole life and he breathes it. And you can just see that all the time.

01:01:47:29 - 01:02:00:19
Matt
and he's just happy to be there, you know? He's a fan of these stories, is a fan of the princesses and, the past RPG cycles. And he has, like, memorabilia from them and stuff like his little helmet and stuff. He's been saving that his whole time.

01:02:00:21 - 01:02:02:02
Wade
And he.

01:02:02:04 - 01:02:19:08
Matt
fun fact about him, I made sure that his default face was always a smile because he's always just happy to be involved no matter what's going on. Like, he'll like, put it down to a straight mouth for, like, if something's going wild or something, but it's always back to a smile. And even in combat, if you notice, he always has a smile.

01:02:19:10 - 01:02:25:20
Matt
Yeah, when everyone else has a flat, demeanor. there's one part where he frowns.

01:02:25:23 - 01:02:30:08
Wade
Which is my dog is barking. Oh, yeah, let's dog.

01:02:30:09 - 01:02:31:05
Matt
Podcast after this.

01:02:31:07 - 01:02:34:10
Wade
Let's just. Yeah, yeah.

01:02:34:13 - 01:02:58:24
Matt
But yeah, there is one time where he frowned in particular, and that is in the second to last boss fight. And it's actually very meaningful. I guess I want to spoil it too much. but yes, the last is the last boss fight when you finish that last dungeon and there's a part where he starts frowning in the fight and it's, I like, I like to do, like storytelling through, like, gameplay.

01:02:58:26 - 01:03:16:27
Matt
somewhat of a sidetrack, I remember I watched I don't remember who it was. I'm sorry, I can't credit. There was some video or something I was watching or some article talking about storytelling through gameplay, and they use Final Fantasy four as an example. and they would talk about stuff like an example was how Riddick couldn't cast fire even though that was a Black Mage standard.

01:03:16:29 - 01:03:22:27
Matt
And then you find out, you realize, oh, that's because her mom died from fire when Cecil and Kane.

01:03:23:22 - 01:03:45:14
Matt
Brought that, like, bomb ring or whatever. And then, like, she has to cast it to melt that icicle, and then she has it in her stuff, so, like, stuff like that was really cool. so that side, bar side, there's a part where things are kind of falling apart in this last boss fight. And what's going on in the background is I'm trying to say it's not spoiling too much.

01:03:45:14 - 01:04:14:23
Matt
Basically, a person you're fighting is kind of like breaking down more and more throughout the fight, and you can see when it gets near the end of the fight. And that boss is kind of like broken down to their like breaking point. Nate starts to frown during the fight, and I don't know if you noticed that. I don't know if anyone noticed that really, but to me that was a very like, touching moment because it's like he's kind of realizing that this, this has been just like a big, fun adventure for him, but he's kind of realizing it, like, these are real.

01:04:14:23 - 01:04:15:20
Wade
People.

01:04:15:22 - 01:04:22:10
Matt
And it's not just some fun adventure. And there's someone that's been very hurt by these cycles. There we go. Breaking the cycle, breaking things.

01:04:22:16 - 01:04:23:20
Wade
There you go, there we go.

01:04:23:22 - 01:04:30:24
Matt
Yeah. And that was a cool moment for me. it was a subtle thing. I don't know if anyone noticed. That's fine. But I'm telling everyone now. So.

01:04:30:24 - 01:04:31:16
Wade
Yeah.

01:04:31:18 - 01:04:32:12
Wade
You know.

01:04:32:14 - 01:04:33:13
Wade
I recall.

01:04:33:13 - 01:04:38:03
Wade
Seeing his demeanor change in that fight and I, I was.

01:04:38:03 - 01:04:39:25
Wade
Not I don't think.

01:04:39:28 - 01:05:02:12
Wade
I'm glad that you just explained that because it really does give some gravity to that fight. Did. That's one of the things that surprised me about this game. As humorous as it is beginning to end, there are these poignant moments of of sobering emotion. I think especially of the, the dark and the sunset scene. I was like, am I getting choked up over this?

01:05:02:12 - 01:05:03:03
Wade
Like, this is.

01:05:03:10 - 01:05:04:21
Wade
This is wild.

01:05:04:24 - 01:05:29:18
Wade
but these characters, especially hearing you say that each one of them to some degree, is a, different conveying of a piece of your personality, which I think, you know, a lot of developers would say that about their characters, but that's such a really cool moment. in my mind, that sunset scene, you know, is just peak, in this game, especially after everything that you've been through.

01:05:29:18 - 01:05:33:01
Wade
So anyway, go play the game. We're not spoiling it on purpose.

01:05:33:09 - 01:05:33:28
Wade
Go play the.

01:05:33:28 - 01:05:37:28
Wade
Game. That's good. Yelling out here.

01:05:38:00 - 01:05:43:23
Evan
Okay, so we have, I think two more questions I have and then we can yeah, we can

01:05:43:25 - 01:05:44:22
Wade
I've got like one.

01:05:44:22 - 01:05:45:20
Wade
Or two others, so.

01:05:45:24 - 01:05:46:03
Wade
Go for.

01:05:46:03 - 01:05:47:16
Evan
It. We're talking for another hour then.

01:05:47:19 - 01:05:50:00
Wade
No. We're good. We're getting there. I think.

01:05:50:00 - 01:06:08:11
Evan
Okay, I'll boil mine down to one. I have, I have one, and then either one of them should be combined. The what's next for you? What do you want to share? That should be one that we have the same. So let's align our purposes there. and then I'm, I'm on the bottom screen on discord. Are you above me on your screen?

01:06:08:13 - 01:06:09:26
Wade
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

01:06:09:28 - 01:06:11:15
Evan
Are you up top on your screen?

01:06:11:21 - 01:06:12:18
Wade
Me? I'm in the.

01:06:12:18 - 01:06:21:24
Wade
Middle. It's like side by side here. I'm trying to which side of my hand open up. Wrong side. No, sorry. Okay.

01:06:21:27 - 01:06:25:09
Evan
I need them fresh. All right. so my question.

01:06:25:09 - 01:06:26:16
Wade
Is.

01:06:26:19 - 01:06:48:16
Evan
You you you mentioned that there's a lot of your personality that goes into the inspiration and the kind of discipline and work ethic to get something like this made. You talk about how your brain is always going. And you said that was kind of a factor of anxiety that you've experienced, and it sounds like you've really been able to channel that into something creative and productive.

01:06:48:16 - 01:06:53:28
Evan
And meaningful and lasting in this game that you've written, which is incredible.

01:06:54:01 - 01:06:58:03
Wade
My question is, what, advice from your experience.

01:06:58:09 - 01:07:11:15
Evan
Would you give to somebody who experiences something similar and is looking for that outlet and method to kind of channel and be able to really, express themselves even with all their going through it?

01:07:11:17 - 01:07:13:20
Wade
Yeah.

01:07:13:23 - 01:07:29:07
Matt
I would say just try something, just do something and make something. I don't care if it's art. I don't care if it's music. I don't care if it's a YouTube video or a game like, and like game. Well, with game development in particular, this is a question I get all the time and I what I get from students and stuff like that.

01:07:29:10 - 01:08:03:19
Matt
I used to teach at a university, by the way. I guess I should mention that, but yeah, it's a very common question. So I always tell people and this sounds like such a copout answer, just it. And it's just to make something like, if you're getting into game development and you've got all these plans for like all these huge games you want to make, just literally take one single game mechanic, like just a small mechanic you like from a game, make something in like 3 to 6 months and just put something out on like it or steam or something like make, make something, just do something.

01:08:03:19 - 01:08:19:08
Matt
Basically. That's my biggest advice and it sounds kind of corny and a cop out, but, but I'm so serious about that. Like, people get so caught up with game development, like, how can I make my my first game be a huge breakout hit, you know? Yeah. And instead of doing that.

01:08:19:10 - 01:08:20:18
Wade
They don't have.

01:08:20:21 - 01:08:35:24
Matt
To make like this huge game. They don't have the skills to even make a game to start with, you know, how are they going to learn how to do all the marketing that's involved or all the complex, crazy stuff you have to to make a game? So I always tell people, make a game from start to finish. It doesn't know how bad it is.

01:08:35:24 - 01:08:41:12
Matt
Doesn't matter how bad it looks, it doesn't matter if it's not, it just just make something. That's it.

01:08:41:14 - 01:08:42:01
Wade
Oh, yeah.

01:08:42:03 - 01:08:43:07
Matt
I don't know how to say it, really.

01:08:43:08 - 01:08:51:17
Evan
So as somebody who experiences that kind of intimidating decision paralysis when it comes to ideas and just making something.

01:08:51:19 - 01:08:52:19
Wade
What.

01:08:52:21 - 01:09:09:12
Evan
Thing would you say? Try this to get started. Like if you just you because I think we just daydream, right. Like you just kind of daydream and think about all the things you could do, and then boom, it's nighttime again and you're like, crap, I didn't do anything. Like, what advice would you give to somebody to just start moving?

01:09:09:14 - 01:09:10:18
Wade
Yeah.

01:09:10:20 - 01:09:12:29
Matt
I'm the worst person to ask about this because I had the same problem.

01:09:13:04 - 01:09:16:18
Evan
That this person asked then. Yeah.

01:09:16:20 - 01:09:34:11
Matt
so, okay, so for video Game Fables, I had that idea and I had made other small games before that. you know, I had Lucid Awakening one and two. That's an RPG I have on steam. I had like some mobile game, like I'd made little stuff before, but I was like, I had that idea, and I was like, I like this idea.

01:09:34:14 - 01:09:51:00
Matt
I'm going to make this game and I'm just going to do it, and I'm just not going to give up on it. And it took me way longer than I should. It was way more stressful than it had to have been. It didn't end up getting as much revenue as I wish it did like, but I finished that game and I'm so happy I did, you know?

01:09:51:02 - 01:10:19:11
Matt
And for me, it was just like telling myself, I'm going to finish this game. And I just I just told myself like that. Like, we just we just have to finish this game. Like I have to. I have to do this and I think it it took me on and off like 4 or 5 years. the biggest issue for me was that I was teaching at the time, and I was very drained from that, like teaching game development made me drained to like actually do game development too much.

01:10:19:11 - 01:10:28:23
Matt
So it was so slow during that time. It wasn't until I quit that job to start a new part time job that I was able to devote like a year or two to, like almost full time working on it.

01:10:28:28 - 01:10:31:02
Evan
Cool.

01:10:31:05 - 01:10:58:08
Matt
but it's really just like telling yourself you have to finish this game, and that can be overwhelming and stressful. And that's why I suggest not doing what I did and pick something way smaller. And so that's like the biggest takeaway from my mistakes that people can take, but they can take all the other stuff as the positive about it, but yet pick something very small, extremely small and say, I'm going to finish this game and do it from start to finish.

01:10:58:10 - 01:11:09:23
Matt
And I also suggest, trying to do most of stuff yourself, like, even if you're not going to art and you're not good at music, like, I hired someone to do the music. I think Vlad the GM. And he's wonderful.

01:11:09:23 - 01:11:10:19
Wade
Yeah. Sorry.

01:11:10:21 - 01:11:13:22
Evan
Amazing job. Name for his credits. Would you mind saying I would love.

01:11:13:25 - 01:11:37:14
Matt
Yeah. Levy C underscore EDM. He's amazing. yeah. So like do stuff that you're not comfortable with. Like, I did the modeling for that game and I had never done modeling before. you know, I mean, a lot of the textures and stuff like that, like make every part of this game from start to finish, do marketing for it, send it out to streamers, make sure it gets on steam and it's finished.

01:11:37:14 - 01:11:47:16
Matt
Make a finished product. It doesn't have to be amazing. Just make a finished product. That's it. But pick something small. That's the mistake you can. That's my mistake that you can learn from.

01:11:47:19 - 01:11:48:26
Evan
Yeah. Pick something. Bite size.

01:11:48:26 - 01:11:50:22
Matt
That's awesome. Yes. Very very small.

01:11:50:28 - 01:11:53:01
Evan
Okay. That's great advice.

01:11:53:04 - 01:11:55:19
Wade
That is it's.

01:11:55:21 - 01:12:34:10
Wade
It's honestly incredible what you were able to do over those 4 to 5 years really just just yourself and live. Right. with the music. But everything else was, was you graphics, story writing, gameplay design at all of the programing. that is exhausting, right? And then to release it, in a in a sea of 13,000 games over the course of the year, you know, I honestly cannot imagine just all of the emotions, the excitement and also the frustration and all of that kind of stuff.

01:12:34:13 - 01:12:46:25
Wade
So this this question is more about the developer than the development cycle. Okay. So in the midst of all of that being on Twitter, social media, the steam reviews, all that stuff.

01:12:47:02 - 01:12:48:01
Wade
What kept.

01:12:48:01 - 01:12:53:23
Wade
You grounded during all of that and true to yourself?

01:12:53:25 - 01:12:57:10
Wade
Yeah.

01:12:57:12 - 01:13:01:17
Matt
I guess I'd say.

01:13:01:19 - 01:13:07:05
Matt
Since it wasn't, like, super like successful, like, didn't sell a lot. I didn't really have too far to go to the ground.

01:13:07:07 - 01:13:07:27
Wade
And so.

01:13:07:27 - 01:13:24:11
Matt
Like when you're early, you know, when you're not sound like a ton of copies. You're not like some big celebrity or whatever. It didn't sell a ton. It's like you don't have that far down to go. but yeah, for me it was just like trying to take care of myself and take care of my relationships. And I didn't always do that great.

01:13:24:11 - 01:13:49:26
Matt
Like I didn't take care of my personal relationships. Well, I didn't take care of myself at all like I was very I was very hard on myself and very unhealthy. And, one of the things that really helped me was last year I started going to therapy, and I definitely needed that. I absolutely needed that. not just because of the development process, but I mean, I really I really was at like my lowest lows making this game like it was it was tough and I was not good to myself.

01:13:49:26 - 01:14:02:03
Matt
And I wasn't always the best. Everyone around me as well. and I think a lot of that was just realizing, like, you know, there'll be times where I'd have to remind myself, like, this.

01:14:02:03 - 01:14:03:27
Wade
Game.

01:14:03:29 - 01:14:23:25
Matt
Even finishing this game, selling this game or whatever, that's not who you are as a person. That's just something you've done. so you need to take care of stuff like your relationships and your family and yourself. And like I said, I wasn't good at it, but I would have to remind myself of that a lot. So that's kind of like the grounded side of it, I guess, is being like, you're still here, you're still who you are.

01:14:23:27 - 01:14:36:04
Matt
You're still in these relationships. You still have friends and family. you know, you need to live to make this game. So you got to eat. You got to take care of yourself. You got to take walks and stuff like that. You know?

01:14:36:07 - 01:14:37:24
Wade
That is I wasn't.

01:14:37:26 - 01:15:01:18
Wade
That's impeccable advice. as as a content creator, as somebody that tries to do a lot of different things to differentiate between what I do and who I am. And like that self-care aspect, talking to people, building those personal relationships. gosh, to to create something and to come out on the other side and say, hey, I didn't do it.

01:15:01:18 - 01:15:13:01
Wade
Great. I didn't do it perfect, but I'm still here. I'm willing to step up to the plate again, even. I mean, that's that's pretty impressive, to be honest. I mean, that's amazing.

01:15:13:01 - 01:15:29:16
Evan
And it's really clear that you've put a lot of work into it for yourself. Gosh. Because you have an ability to articulate what it was, right. You have such an understanding, you can engage with it as a concept. And to do that and be creative at the same time is awesome. I mean, that's and really thanks for sharing that.

01:15:29:16 - 01:15:34:15
Evan
And yeah, thank you. That's cool. Because as a fellow human being.

01:15:34:17 - 01:15:39:00
Wade
As tough man like tough and relatable. Yeah. Yeah.

01:15:39:01 - 01:15:51:07
Evan
Well and that's and that's kind of what we want to get to. Right. Is we want to get to those things that we experience. And video games are a means for us to be able to engage with real life concepts and stories in our lives. So yeah, we appreciate.

01:15:51:13 - 01:15:52:24
Wade
Oh one of.

01:15:52:24 - 01:16:05:13
Wade
The things that this also does kind of bring up is, you know, this year, from Triple-A studios to indie developers, there have been layoffs and, just the industry has been under.

01:16:05:13 - 01:16:06:05
Matt
Assault.

01:16:06:05 - 01:16:31:26
Wade
Of, of oversaturation in some cases, but also just the grind, grind culture and all of that where people are getting exhausted, they're getting laid off, fired in some cases. And it, it is an incredibly, difficult place to be in, dare I say toxic, but I don't know enough about it to specify the toxicity, but I just know it's unhealthy at this point.

01:16:31:26 - 01:16:53:06
Wade
And so, there is a broader conversation. This points to that. People that create it put so much of themselves in this stuff. And then when something doesn't work out the way that we thought, or there's not security and job and all that kind of stuff, sometimes what you do just doesn't work out the way you planned it.

01:16:53:11 - 01:17:13:08
Wade
But that doesn't really speak to the idea that you have the, the, the how you that you have and all that kind of stuff. And I think that that's, that's what I try to remember as a content creator. Some of my videos are duds, right? Like some of the live streams I do like boom, whatever. And yet I just want those things to exist.

01:17:13:10 - 01:17:27:04
Wade
just want to put it out there because there's something about me that's like, it needs to be shared, you know? So gosh, again, just like super relatable. That's so great. especially for this, this industry. So thank you.

01:17:27:06 - 01:17:29:28
Wade
So, I have.

01:17:29:28 - 01:17:34:20
Wade
Another question that is what's next.

01:17:34:23 - 01:17:39:13
Wade
For you? Do you have any other I mean, I that I don't up there.

01:17:39:16 - 01:17:40:16
Wade
Not expecting like a.

01:17:40:16 - 01:17:48:25
Wade
Reveal or anything like that, but like what are you working on anything like what's going on up there? What's going on here? Well, now, if you did that much, have.

01:17:48:25 - 01:17:58:02
Wade
You been to a Starbucks and thought, I can make a vanilla mocha latte or something like that into a boss battle, like, that's.

01:17:58:05 - 01:17:58:14
Wade
yeah.

01:17:58:14 - 01:18:12:04
Matt
So I guess I should explain, like what I'm doing now and everything. Yeah. briefly, but. So I have a full time job now. when I was working on this game, I was working part time with my brother, and that was. That was great. Like, I appreciate him so much because he was so flexible, means so great to me.

01:18:12:04 - 01:18:26:07
Matt
And I could work on my game and, like, kind of work my own hours with him. but I ended up we were going to buy a house, and I was like, I can't do this on a because I was very poor. I should say that, too. While I was working on this game, I was very, very poor.

01:18:26:07 - 01:18:44:25
Matt
And I did not make money off it either, like I made. Not much at all. so I was struggling and I was like, we were going to buy a house. And I was like, after this game, I can't rely on like a game. that's one thing I'll tell people to never, ever, ever rely on a game's potential sales to for your income.

01:18:44:28 - 01:19:04:07
Matt
Most people should never quit their full time job unless you've got like a trust fund on you. Make sure you have the income to survive. And I know it's hard. Like maybe you can only work on it like one day a week or something. But you got it. You got to live. You got to survive. You know? but yeah, so I, I ended up getting a full time job.

01:19:04:09 - 01:19:07:05
Matt
I'm very, very happy with. I got last October.

01:19:08:10 - 01:19:23:08
Matt
It was actually the first interview I applied for a ton of game dev jobs. It was the first interview I got. It was the only interview I got, and I got the job. So I was like, let's go. I don't know if I dodged a bullet, I don't know, I don't I don't ask questions. I'm like, okay, whatever, I'm happy.

01:19:23:11 - 01:19:23:27
Wade
Let's go.

01:19:24:04 - 01:19:46:06
Matt
Don't ask questions. Yeah. So I'm actually very, very happy. It's the best job I've ever had. I love the people I work with. It's, a very good environment, I'll say. I work a lot with a lot of Gen Z people, and I can never work for older people again because, like, they're also chill, and it's like they believe in if you have happy employees, happy and healthy employees, they're going to do good work, you know?

01:19:46:08 - 01:20:00:12
Matt
but yeah, so I work a full time job now, so I'm not developing as much as I would necessarily. I was working on a duck upon Kingdom style game. I don't know if you ever saw it on All posted to go.

01:20:00:14 - 01:20:01:28
Wade
Yeah. About it. Yeah.

01:20:02:00 - 01:20:14:28
Matt
Yeah. And duck upon kingdom for those don't know it's like a mix of like Mario Party and Monopoly and RPGs. It's wild. And it was I love playing that game with my friends and there's like nothing else like it. So like, this is an untapped market.

01:20:15:00 - 01:20:16:19
Wade
Yeah.

01:20:16:21 - 01:20:36:14
Matt
And my twist on my version of it, it was procedurally generated. The board is procedurally generated each time because in the original it was just the the same map every time, right? Yeah. so that was like the big twist on it. and it's actually like, code wise, it's like very far in development. I would just need to eventually get like all the art assets and everything like that.

01:20:36:14 - 01:20:42:11
Matt
And touch up a like coding design. So it's, it's, I would say like 20% done or something. It's not very close.

01:20:43:19 - 01:21:00:00
Matt
I kind of put that on the side though. When I started this job. And since I don't have a like a ton of energy to like, work a lot, I've been working on like some other side projects, like I have like three prototypes going on at the same time right now, just because it's like, and this is not good advice, do not do what I do.

01:21:00:02 - 01:21:02:10
Wade
But focus on one thing.

01:21:02:14 - 01:21:08:02
Matt
Don't listen to, don't listen to my mate. Listen to my words. Yeah, follow my words, not my actions.

01:21:08:04 - 01:21:15:05
Wade
But let me know what I do. That's what I'm always say. But. So for me.

01:21:15:08 - 01:21:31:23
Matt
if I get stuck on a game or I get, like, anxious, I'm going against idea about thinking like. Because what I do is I think like a million steps ahead and I'll be like, oh, let me just make this one character that moves and I'll be like, well, what if x, Y, and Z? And then I'm like, I'm suddenly like five years from now and I'm thinking like, well, what would the YouTuber say about this?

01:21:31:23 - 01:21:44:13
Matt
Like, it's too much. But basically I have like three different prototypes going on the same time, because for me, if I get like stuck or anxious on one project, I can just go to the next thing and it feels kind of like fresh to me. And it feels like, like I'm rejuvenate a little bit.

01:21:45:18 - 01:22:01:15
Matt
The one I'm working on, I was trying to make something just small because, like, I was trying to take my own advice and just try to make something small and get it out, just so I can release another game and feel like I'm still a developer. You know, one was like, mix of, like, Stardew Valley and Vampire Survivors.

01:22:01:16 - 01:22:02:04
Wade
Yeah.

01:22:02:06 - 01:22:03:20
Matt
which is something kind of unique. And,

01:22:03:22 - 01:22:07:10
Wade
Did you ever play vampire survivors? Wait, I did okay, good.

01:22:07:13 - 01:22:24:20
Matt
Yeah, I've. I've played a lot of vampire survivors. I have played that way too much. But yeah. So for me, it was like that came from random idea in my head, I was like, I don't know how it happened. Basically, I was like, those two games have the same gameplay loop, but people don't realize it. And that is the just one more gameplay loop.

01:22:24:22 - 01:22:40:25
Matt
And I was like, okay, well, could that work together? And I was like, I think it could, right? Because like, Vampire Survivor is like, you finish your run, but you kind of want to do the next one because I want to use the stuff you just got or unlocked or something. Right? And Stardew Valley is the exact same thing.

01:22:40:25 - 01:22:44:13
Matt
It's like you plant your seeds, you do whatever.

01:22:44:15 - 01:22:45:28
Wade
And then one.

01:22:45:28 - 01:22:58:28
Matt
Thing started that I did really, really well to keep people playing. They made you save when you go to sleep and wake up the next day, so you're tempted to play that next day. I don't know if people discuss that, but to me that's like genius to get people to keep playing.

01:22:59:01 - 01:22:59:13
Wade
Yeah.

01:22:59:13 - 01:23:07:15
Matt
So because it's like you wake up and you're like, well, what if I just do one more day and I just go check my crops, you know? Yeah, but then you go to sleep to save, and it's like, well, I could do one.

01:23:07:15 - 01:23:12:25
Wade
More, you know, more. Yeah. What a great trick. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:23:12:27 - 01:23:35:07
Matt
so, yeah, like, my idea was that you would like, you would do, like, the Stardew Valley stuff and like, I had, like a spin on it, so I didn't just feel like it's not even farming. It's like something else. but basically, you would, like, plant your crops and to get money from then you wouldn't just sell them, you would, like, process them through like a story of, vampire survivors thing, and you would get, like, money from that.

01:23:35:09 - 01:23:40:03
Matt
So you would have, like, it's almost like the vampire survivors is like the mine on Stardew Valley.

01:23:40:09 - 01:23:41:09
Wade
Yeah, yeah.

01:23:41:09 - 01:23:54:12
Matt
So it's like the stuff you get from the vampire survivors part of the game would feed the Stardew Valley. So I think like that would be like the currency and stuff on that. And this one would feed the vampire survivors stuff like your upgrades and stuff like that.

01:23:54:14 - 01:23:54:27
Wade
But anyway, I.

01:23:54:27 - 01:24:15:01
Matt
Was just like, that's just like some weird prototype I'm working on. I don't know if I'm gonna release, I don't know the other one. I really like the idea of it's like a simulator of playing an MMO, and it's kind of like, you know, like unpacking where you like organized stuff. It's basically the vibe I had in my head was like, and I have like a pretty good prototype for it.

01:24:15:01 - 01:24:40:14
Matt
Now to the vibe out of my head is like, your older brother is playing an MMO and you're too scared to go fight. So what he does for you is he goes on adventures and he comes back and just dumps his inventory on you. So you have to like, organize his like an MMO inventory and chest, and you have to put stuff on the auction house and you have to like, sell stuff and like, maybe do crafting and stuff like that.

01:24:40:16 - 01:25:05:11
Matt
and I even wanted to touch like a story to it a little bit like you would like, meet like people in like your guild or whatever, your free company. And you would have, like, an ongoing story and, basically you would like, see your, like, older brother whatever progressed his character. Yeah. But you're not actually playing. And that was inspired from me having an older cousin who played final Fiancee 11, and I got stuck on Final Phase 11 in Valkyrie in the first leveling zone because it was too hard.

01:25:05:11 - 01:25:30:29
Matt
That game is ridiculous. Yeah. And I would hear him always tell me about the stuff in the game and I could like, imagine it in my head. This is before like YouTube and stuff. And it was like I would always hear about the game and I knew so much about Final Phase living through him. Ideas like, you never actually go outside the town and play the MMO, but you're like experiencing it, like through your brother and he's like, bring back your stuff and you're like trying to help him get the right equipment to go out.

01:25:30:29 - 01:25:34:01
Matt
And you're like, you basically send him out. Kind of like an idle game in a sense.

01:25:34:03 - 01:25:35:02
Wade
Yeah.

01:25:35:04 - 01:25:38:19
Matt
But yeah, that's what that's like one thing I'm working on now, and I really like the idea. I would like to.

01:25:38:19 - 01:25:39:02
Wade
Bang or.

01:25:39:02 - 01:25:39:15
Wade
Ideas.

01:25:39:22 - 01:25:40:28
Evan
Working on. Yeah.

01:25:41:00 - 01:25:47:19
Wade
Please keep working on that. It's like, a game about to. Toru.

01:25:47:22 - 01:25:52:03
Wade
you're playing a scenario and let's say in your warrior, I love that.

01:25:52:06 - 01:25:57:09
Matt
Yeah, yeah. So. And I think it's pretty unique. I think it hasn't been done before. I think it would resonate with some people.

01:25:57:11 - 01:25:57:28
Wade
You want to.

01:25:58:01 - 01:26:02:02
Evan
bleep out that whole thing when you're explaining the concept. It's just like I'm really thinking about playing.

01:26:02:07 - 01:26:05:10
Wade
B b I don't.

01:26:05:10 - 01:26:07:07
Matt
Know if someone's a copy or whatever. I don't know.

01:26:07:09 - 01:26:07:18
Wade
Whatever is.

01:26:07:25 - 01:26:09:25
Evan
Way more dramatic of a segment.

01:26:09:27 - 01:26:14:14
Wade
Really. Well, that's true, that's true, that's true. No, those are really great ideas.

01:26:14:14 - 01:26:28:10
Evan
But do you find that talking about now I'm asking more questions. Do you find that like talking about them and having to discuss them kind of feeds into your inspiration? Because you get a little bit of feedback on them because like, I'm super collaborative, so I have to do everything with Wade or else I'll never do anything.

01:26:28:13 - 01:26:29:03
Wade
Exactly.

01:26:29:03 - 01:26:43:19
Matt
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like like I ask my friends sometimes, like they know all the secrets I work on and stuff because I'll like, ask them and I'll be like, hey, what do you think about this? And like, they were they were people I talked to a lot about. I don't open game as well. Like, because they, they're the ones I played with.

01:26:43:22 - 01:26:54:07
Matt
And I was like, what do we not like about this game? Like, what do we hate about this game? It needs to be change. Like, what do we like about it? so a lot of, like the design came from like talking to them and getting their input.

01:26:54:10 - 01:26:56:12
Wade
That is awesome. That's it's great to.

01:26:56:12 - 01:27:01:05
Wade
Have those people. I just want to say to you, you have good instincts, like.

01:27:01:05 - 01:27:02:02
Wade
You think you.

01:27:02:02 - 01:27:20:06
Wade
Really have, like, your finger on the pulse of what people could play. I mean, both of those concepts excited both of us. and I would be eager to play either of those. and especially after playing video game fables, knowing that you're writing and all of that kind of stuff is is right on vibe with me.

01:27:20:08 - 01:27:42:03
Evan
I have no idea. I did that all by yourself and that the different elements of it had so much creativity in them. Yeah, because they usually it's like, oh, I'm pretty good at the writing, I'm good at the animations. I can get the combat system down, but game mechanics are fun or whatever. But to do that and like kind of just honestly get to show off your like multidisciplinary skill set, there is like it's really cool, man.

01:27:42:03 - 01:27:59:12
Evan
It's really impressive. You have got to keep making stuff because you've got a brain for it in a really neat way. It was. It's been really fun to get to talk to you. okay, so before we sign off, we need to make sure that you get to publish all your stuff. So how can people, how can people get to know about what you're up to?

01:27:59:15 - 01:28:04:10
Evan
Where do you want them to do? What do you want to pay attention to anybody you want to shout out?

01:28:04:13 - 01:28:24:01
Matt
Yeah, I'd say like, the first thing would be go buy video game peoples support me. it's on steam. It's pretty cheap. I did a price drop. A permanent price drop. It's like $14 full price, but I do sales all the time. like, I'll probably do an anniversary sale, so it's. I'll just wait for a sale if I don't want to buy it.

01:28:24:03 - 01:28:32:25
Matt
It's a cheap game. It's like 13 hours long. I think we need more short games. instead of drawn out games that take forever and have a lot of plays.

01:28:32:25 - 01:28:33:13
Wade
So it's.

01:28:33:16 - 01:28:40:16
Matt
Yeah, something fun, something lighthearted. Go buy that. I'm pretty active on Twitter or X, if we're gonna really.

01:28:40:18 - 01:28:41:03
Wade
Call it that.

01:28:41:10 - 01:28:43:03
Evan
It'll be called by the time this releases.

01:28:43:09 - 01:28:51:20
Wade
We never know. Well, follow me on floo Ball. Yeah. heard it here first. Yeah.

01:28:51:22 - 01:29:03:03
Matt
my studios. That's my handle. but, yeah, that's pretty much. I don't do a lot of other social media and stuff like that. So, that's about it. Honestly.

01:29:03:05 - 01:29:10:13
Wade
Yeah. So everybody, seriously, go check out video game fables. there's a demo for it too, right?

01:29:10:16 - 01:29:10:27
Wade
On steam.

01:29:10:29 - 01:29:27:22
Wade
Yeah, I think there's. Yeah. So play it. I like it. Worth every penny. like I said, one of the most charming, memorable gaming experiences that I had in, 20, 22 and, just a delight to, to get to talk to you today. So thank you again for being here, Matt.

01:29:27:23 - 01:29:28:21
Evan
Thank you so much. Yeah.

01:29:28:22 - 01:29:35:07
Matt
Thank you so much. This is really cool. Glad to meet my my celebrity YouTubers and stuff like that.

01:29:35:07 - 01:29:37:29
Wade
Cool celebrity.

01:29:38:06 - 01:29:43:22
Wade
always in the quotes there. But seriously, thank you so much.

01:29:43:25 - 01:29:45:13
Wade
before we go to,

01:29:45:15 - 01:29:49:24
Wade
One quick question. Just a rapid fire sort of thing. for.

01:29:49:24 - 01:29:53:21
Wade
Your are we we try to ask people.

01:29:53:23 - 01:30:04:02
Wade
In your required reading list for a video game, what would be your required reading list? Video game pick?

01:30:04:05 - 01:30:07:25
Matt
Do I have to pick one or, you can I dodge the question and be a little shady?

01:30:07:25 - 01:30:13:20
Wade
You can be a little shady if you want. Yeah. Okay. So we're building a syllabus required reading for. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

01:30:13:23 - 01:30:15:25
Evan
What do you need to play?

01:30:15:28 - 01:30:24:07
Matt
okay. So my copout answer is I think everyone should play something from every genre, even if you think you hate that genre.

01:30:24:13 - 01:30:25:22
Wade
Dang. Okay.

01:30:25:25 - 01:30:35:00
Matt
And I think also finding something that, like talk to people, you know, that would know your likes and stuff because like, for me, yes, I don't really like racing games, but I love Mario Kart.

01:30:35:03 - 01:30:36:03
Wade
Okay.

01:30:36:05 - 01:31:08:08
Matt
Find someone that will say, hey, I know you don't like racing games, but try Mario Kart. And even if you play a game and you end up hating it, that's fine. Then you know for sure. But you never know like what kind of genres you're going to like and don't like. Keep an open mind for sure. my other copout answer is, the Zelda series, because I was thinking about this and I was like, I think playing through a lot of the Zelda games and seeing how it progresses is really cool for just seeing how the game industry works and seeing the evolution of games, because Zelda is one of those things where it's

01:31:08:08 - 01:31:26:14
Matt
pretty much the same from start to finish. Like you play Zelda one up through like, you know, tiers of the kingdom or whatever. and like, the elements are still the same, but you're seeing it with like higher graphical fidelity, fidelity you're seeing from 2D to 3D. You're seeing like this process of how games have evolved over time.

01:31:26:16 - 01:31:31:18
Matt
So I guess I can say Zelda, and that's technically one thing. So I'm kind of cheating, but.

01:31:31:20 - 01:31:33:10
Wade
All of other Zelda.

01:31:33:12 - 01:31:52:26
Matt
Yeah, I was trying to think of like what would represent that the most? Because I think that's important to see, like the evolution of things and to see different types of games. my very personal biased answer is Kingdom Hearts because it's my favorite game, so I don't I don't want to say it's a good answer because I think a lot of people won't like it, but if I had to pick a biased thing.

01:31:52:26 - 01:31:54:04
Wade
Yeah, it's your if you could.

01:31:54:04 - 01:31:55:13
Evan
Select not answer.

01:31:55:16 - 01:31:56:24
Wade
Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:31:56:26 - 01:32:02:07
Wade
If you could select one Kingdom Hearts for people to play which would it be?

01:32:02:10 - 01:32:04:13
Matt
That is hard because continuing series.

01:32:04:13 - 01:32:06:29
Wade
But I guess King yeah.

01:32:07:01 - 01:32:09:02
Matt
Kingdom Hearts two final mixes. The best.

01:32:09:02 - 01:32:10:07
Wade
That's the one. Okay.

01:32:10:12 - 01:32:12:28
Wade
Yeah. Noted. That's what a lot.

01:32:12:28 - 01:32:27:20
Wade
Of people say. But, I'm personally a Kingdom Hearts three fan. I love it most out of the, that. Well, I've only played the three numbered ones, the mainline ones, not the fractions and the other things.

01:32:27:22 - 01:32:33:26
Wade
so I don't know what that one is. It's like 352 over four days or so. Yeah.

01:32:33:28 - 01:32:35:00
Matt
It's a mess.

01:32:35:03 - 01:32:37:13
Wade
Yeah, yeah. It's great. Well, good.

01:32:37:13 - 01:32:46:23
Evan
We'll put that on the required reading list. And as our first guest, you now have claimed Zelda and Kingdom Hearts. So if anybody gives that answer. Yeah.

01:32:46:25 - 01:32:48:13
Wade
Yikes. Already said.

01:32:48:16 - 01:32:50:04
Evan
You so kicked us off on a good.

01:32:50:04 - 01:32:51:13
Wade
On all of Zelda.

01:32:51:13 - 01:32:52:04
Wade
And all.

01:32:52:04 - 01:32:53:04
Wade
Of Kingdom.

01:32:53:06 - 01:32:56:02
Evan
Don't come back and talk to me till you've played all of Zelda.

01:32:56:02 - 01:32:57:13
Wade
All. All of.

01:32:57:15 - 01:33:03:19
Matt
I'm sorry I set the worst precedent for that question. I've ruined the rest of the series. I am so sorry.

01:33:03:21 - 01:33:07:18
Wade
Have you played one of Gameloft? Go and do it and then come.

01:33:07:20 - 01:33:09:20
Wade
Yeah. And you have to play that crypt.

01:33:09:20 - 01:33:12:10
Evan
Of the Necro dance or spin off Zelda two if you don't.

01:33:12:10 - 01:33:14:21
Wade
Yeah, that. Yeah. See.

01:33:14:23 - 01:33:15:29
Evan
Was that game was awesome.

01:33:15:29 - 01:33:20:03
Wade
I don't know if you have that. I have not played it.

01:33:20:04 - 01:33:25:15
Wade
I have not done the required reading. I've not played Dancer Zelda yet, so.

01:33:25:17 - 01:33:31:12
Wade
Well, Matt Phoenix brisket. Brisket. Yes, it does that.

01:33:31:14 - 01:33:33:05
Evan
Thank you so much.

01:33:33:08 - 01:33:34:09
Matt
Thank you guys.

01:33:37:17 - 01:33:41:02
Unknown
Oh.

01:33:41:02 - 01:34:01:03
Speaker 1
Thanks everyone for tuning in, and a big thanks to Matt for coming on for the interview. Check out video game fables and you can check him out on X. That's where he's most active. Another thanks to sing for the laughter for the use of the music. Check out their stuff on YouTube. And thanks to Nick Smith for our graphics.

01:34:01:04 - 01:34:08:29
Speaker 1
Way to go Nick! Looking forward to seeing everybody next episode. Thanks again for watching. Bye bye.

01:34:13:16 - 01:34:24:12
Unknown
Oh.

01:34:24:15 - 01:34:30:18
Unknown
You.