[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:12] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Dan Hammond. You've become somewhat famous over the weekend, a bit of a radio star, BBC I do

[00:00:21] Dan: Yeah, I was on the Beeb on Friday. Yes. Yeah. God, it was, it was an epi. Yeah. You know this, I think we've talked about this a few times, but our little, our community music festival, which is sort of garden music festival, the vision of everyone playing in gardens for the community and they wander around, um, yeah, it was a, it was over the weekend.

[00:00:39] Dan: And one of the weird things that happens, and I dunno if anyone out there really understands how these things work, can come and explain to us, but the first two years were sort of the same. They got a got they doubled in size in terms of performers. But in terms of sort of, you know, presence. It was sort of about the same. This time it absolutely something weird about that third year or whatever, but it just blew the lid off things. We got three times the people on the group. We had big audiences at everyone. And on Friday, Thursday afternoon, I had a message from a producer at the BBC saying, we'd like to talk to you about it. It was sort of out of nowhere. I tr I tried to track down where that came from, but it just.

[00:01:19] Dan: So, yeah, that was lovely. And um, They were wonderful, by the way. They're brilliant at their jobs at, um, BBC Radio Leeds and they, um, yeah, made me feel very much at home. So I did a little Beeb, went into the studio. So, um, It was great fun 

[00:01:34] Pia: It's quite amazing actually because when you, you see on Facebook, there's quite a lot of music festivals. I mean, it's, it's a wash in the uk That itself has taken off. Just access to good music, and it is the short time of the year, that few weeks when it should be good weather and it is time to get

[00:01:55] Dan: Exactly. Well, it was beautiful on Friday and it was beautiful on Sunday and our festival was on the Saturday when it was very rainy. But it was great actually. But it also gave an opportunity for more collaboration cuz we had sort of, we had Operation Gazebo, so everyone was out putting, you know, we had random people take delivering gazebos to houses and things. So it was, it was a lovely community effort. Um, And now I don't need to worry about what happens when it rains because I have the answer. But yeah, it was lovely. it. was lovely and, and great to see the community, but the community puts so much work into that.

[00:02:27] Pia: And you've gone from you and your mate Greg, as you know, six feet apart in your back garden to over 60 acts in

[00:02:35] Dan: exactly. Amazing. And it is incredible to see what people will give. You know, I, there were a couple of guys who really, yeah, several people. Really professional sound engineers, running stages, you know, so I think with massive mixing decks that they bring it all, they set it all up. It's just, just really heartwarming to see what people will give, um, to the community. And. Um, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a little segue into today's guest actually. Yeah. Which is who is Matt Trinetti and, um, he set up the London Writers' Salon, which is, well, I think we've, to be honest, Peter, we should go and let him tell the story because it's a, a really fascinating way to

[00:03:16] Pia: it's the opposite of silent reading. 

[00:03:19] Dan: Exactly, exactly. Let's go and hear from Matt now. 

[00:03:23] Pia: Welcome, Matt. Really, really lovely to have you on the show today.

[00:03:30] Matt: Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

[00:03:33] Pia: And, and this is such a, I think we're gonna have a really great conversation, such an interesting and creative medium that we're gonna talk about and, uh, and looking at collaboration from a completely different angle. But before we get into hearing about you, we put you into the torture room where Dan will ask you, um, a couple of probing questions and then let's, let's see. Let's see how you go with that.

[00:03:57] Dan: While I'm shuffling, where are you talking to us today? From today, Matt.

[00:04:01] Matt: So I'm, I'm just outside of Cleveland, Ohio in the us

[00:04:04] Dan: Excellent. Excellent. Very good. We'll hear a bit more about that a bit later, I'm sure. Okay, so here's your card. I am most afraid of, it's an am. It's an orange card, so middle. Could even be a red card, but guess one of the scarier ones. But yeah.

[00:04:20] Matt: how, open can I be? 

[00:04:22] Dan: You know the answer.

[00:04:24] Matt: I mean it, the first thing that came to my mind. So I'm, I'm here, uh, with my, my family. Um, I'm staying with my parents right now. I just moved from London back to, uh, the US after being eight years away. And so spending a lot of time with my parents and I guess the thing that's forefront for me, they're both healthy. Uh, I'm, I'm. Fearful of losing them. You know, I know that these, I'm in kind of a golden, golden days with them right now where we can go on walks together and, uh, I'm, I guess I'm just not looking forward to that day that they, they continue to, to age and, and eventually I lose them. So that's what I'm fearful of is losing my parents.

[00:05:02] Pia: I think, I think that's a really on, really honest answer. I mean, both Dan and I have, have gone through that rite of passage of losing, losing parents. And I think the choice to actually return back to closer to the nest to spend some really good quality time is, um, I mean, providing you get on with your parents, of course, that's slight caveat in that, in that situation. 

[00:05:27] Matt: Yeah. 

[00:05:28] Pia: Yeah. But if you do, then I think it's a really, it's a lovely time, as you say before, before you start to get to the, the end of life where you may not be in, you know, full control of all your faculties or in the, you know, the brightest form. So it, it's a really lovely time.

[00:05:43] Matt: Yeah. So I guess twinned with the fear is, is also the gratitude of, of recognizing that I am in, I am in this really nice time. But you know, with that, that that gratitude is also the tinge of, of future sadness 

[00:05:56] Dan: and it, I, I would say it's funny you, uh, having been through it, I think that's when your parents do eventually, because the weird thing is we're afraid different things that will actually, definitely will happen at some point, sadly. But, but that sort of flips, you end up with sadness, tinge with, but realizing you should be really grateful. And so, yeah. I think I'm sure you, it sounds like you are learning to juggle those two really well already.

[00:06:20] Matt: Yeah. Trying to, so that's, yeah, fresh, fresh on my mind. 

[00:06:24] Dan: Oh good. Well, a very honest start. Thank you. And um, yeah, and as I say something, we've been through ourselves. And actually when I was very, you had just asked me before the show, Matt, how long I've worked with Pia, and I think we started in 2008, so we're 15 years in now. I mean, I must have been really bad in a previous life, 

[00:06:43] Pia: Yeah, you seriously. 

[00:06:44] Dan: But, uh, but I, my one of, um, my, uh, mum died very early in my. Work with Pia. And, um, she sent me, uh, an article on what, on becoming a, a, an adult orphan. And I thought, wow, a, this is a different company that I've worked for before and this is a different person than I've ever worked for before. So, um, but yeah, we, we've spent quite a lot of time talking about this subject, so thank you for a great start and something you'll be close to the hearts, all of a lot of listeners I think.

[00:07:12] Matt: Yeah. And maybe it's also the work that I do is, um, working with writers and a lot of times people are writing about the most. 

[00:07:18] Matt: You know, the, the, the topics that, that are dear, near and dear to their hearts. So I guess I'm, maybe that's part of it's, I'm always confronted with, uh, the reality of what people are working on. 

[00:07:27] Dan: That's wonderful. Well, look, why don't we just hold that thought, but let you rewind a little bit to tell us where you, um, how you got to this point, which is where you are working with writers. What's your, your background, how the, how the hell did you get to this point?

[00:07:41] Matt: Yeah, it's a, it's a long and long and winding journey, as I'm sure many, many people's are lives that you speak to. Um, so I, I guess if we go far, far back, so I, I grew up in the States. I studied engineering. I. At university took a job with IBM as an IT and business consultant. So that was the first five years of my life and like many people, their first career, their first job, it's kind of half of it's figuring out what you don't wanna do. And I think I had great experience, it taught me so much, but, but at the end of those five years I realized, okay, this isn't quite where. I think I'm best suited.

[00:08:16] Matt: And I wasn't really sure what I was suited for. And so I took that moment, five years into my career to take a sabbatical. So this was about 10 years ago. I took a seven month sabbatical from IBM. Uh, I was gonna quit, but instead I asked can I just have some time off to travel and to, and to write? Which is kind of what brought me into writing.

[00:08:35] Matt: Um, and so I took seven months and I, I traveled around northern and eastern Europe, and that's when I discovered writing for the first time. I started a blog called Give Live Explore, where I basically was just documenting my, my travels, what I was thinking, what I was seeing, what I was experiencing.

[00:08:50] Matt: Something interesting about being in foreign places with no one who knows you, your identity kind of melts away a little bit. And that's what I was experiencing over seven months, where I was both meeting people, having experiences, and also writing about them and, and expressing, trying to express myself for the first time. And that led me to then eventually move to London. I met these guys, uh, running the startup called Escape the City. And what Escape the city did is, uh, helped people leave their corporate jobs that they don't like and do something different. And so I was writing about my journey to try to figure out what I wanted to do after consulting, and they just said, Hey, why don't you come and help us build this, this, this Startup that we're, that we're, we're building in London?

[00:09:33] Matt: So that would then begin the next phase of my career, which was running with this startup. And we started a pop-up school in London called the Escape School, where we designed programs to help people change their career and or start businesses. And kind of how this, this is, this is eventually leading to what, what I'm doing now. So I, I, I learned the skill of facilitation while I was working with that startup. And then, uh, one day I looked back and I realized, oh, I've actually, I've learned a skill here. So I started freelancing as a, a, a facilitator.

[00:10:05] Matt: Couple these with an interest in writing and I kept meeting people who wanted to write. And so eventually I started London Writers' Salon with a friend who I had met at Escape the City. Uh, and it was a side project for us. And so we do daily writing sessions that we call Writer's Hour, which are basically several hundred people over Zoom writing together in silence every day, four times a day, Monday to Friday. So then the last three years in particular by the pandemic, we moved everything online and then we saw this, this little side project turn into something a lot, lot bigger. And we also do weekly interviews with writers of all sorts. And we have a, a platform, a portal where people can stay connected, help each other further their craft, their career and, and really just connect with other writers.

[00:10:54] Pia: So, God, this is fascinating. I've got so many different tangents I want to come back to. So, but, I I wanted to touch on the fact that, you know, you weren't sure what you were suited for, and I think that's quite an interesting one. I think many of our listeners would be in that spot where they feel either a bit trapped in their own role doing the job that they thought they had to do when they left school or university, and they're not really kind of knowing or, or actually feeling a moderate degree of unsatisfaction.

[00:11:24] Pia: So, so just going back to that, do you, are you still seeing that, even though that may not be your actual work at the MO at the moment, are you still, are you still seeing those trends?

[00:11:34] Matt: I do see it in the writers in our community a little bit where there will be people who, they're writing on the side and they hope that one day it becomes a bigger part of what they do. But I feel like I'm having less of those deeper conversations. I mean, I was, I would, I would facilitate programs, three month programs of, with lawyers and bankers and, and people who were really dissatisfied in over three months together we would go through a journey of trying to uncover what are those things you might wanna try and actually encouraging people to experiment and do it in a community of people. So I, I definitely see it still, but I'm less in that world. 

[00:12:13] Pia: uh, my partner twenty three, four years ago, wanted to study to become a naturopath, and I remember saying to her then, because it was a bit like there weren't that many of them, so it sometimes the career that you want to have has not yet been invented, but you have to go on a journey of doing different things, not knowing how it's eventually going to get. It's only when you get to the passage time. I mean, I don't think Dan and I ever would've thought we would end up, like, when we left school, well, you know, in our fifties we're gonna run a startup, a tech startup. Well, what was that? Do you know what I mean? It hasn't been invented yet, and I think that's, that's a really powerful thing for people.

[00:12:53] Matt: And that's really key because when people are forced to choose whether it's a major or a direction or a job, no one, no one really, at least I was never told that. And I wish someone would've told me that. And I think people should say that. And maybe it's part of the conversation more these days as things are changing so quickly and, and what is a job is, is, is rapidly evolving. But just that, that truth to say, Hey, you're just gonna pick this thing for now, but, um, yeah, your, your job likely might not have been invented yet, 

[00:13:22] Dan: I think even 10 or 15 years ago, I heard this stat that 10 years from then, only three of the jobs out of 10 had been created, and I'm sure it's even more now. So I think it's, yeah, it's, it's income. It's a much more, even more exploratory now for everyone. And you overlay that on how and where you work, um, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's. Got to be something to be explored rather than back in the day, which was I'm going to be, you know, an accountant or

[00:13:51] Pia: That's right. It was a very limited number, but, but you were expected to be one of those, And if you weren't yet, you did a vocational job, which was, was, was the, was the also bucket, you know, you did something else like teaching or nursing or, it was so black and white. So I really celebrate the fact that we've now got real diversity and exciting. And then, yeah, and then it's led, it led into the, the, the Writers' Salon. This is a, I mean, it's, it's a similar type of thing. Like who would've imagined an online forum to write

[00:14:25] Matt: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I sure didn't, I mean, and, and maybe I can take you back to the origin story of Writer's Hour, which was basically, so Paul and I, my co-founder, we had been hosting events in London maybe once or twice a month where we'd interview a writer and pandemic was rearing its ugly head and the uk it was the night before the UK was about to go into lockdown.

[00:14:48] Matt: And so that Sunday night, we just got on the phone together and we said, huh, this is, this is a pretty big deal. A lot of uncertainty in the world right now. What can we do for the community of writers who had come to an event with us? We just thought, is there a way? Is there something that we can do, uh, to spread light, to spread calm and w and we just came up with this idea. It was mostly for us, the two of us. But then we said, well, we'll invite other people, which was, let's just get on a Zoom call tomorrow morning at 8:00 AM and we'll just, we'll journal together, we'll just, we'll write together in silence. And that we, we called it writer's hour, and we then emailed everyone who had been to a past event with us and just said, Hey, we know things are confusing. We're gonna get on a Zoom call and write together in silence tomorrow morning at 8:00 AM. You're welcome to join us. It's free. Just come on in. Here's the link.

[00:15:39] Matt: And, uh, nine people showed up on that Monday morning, and which was about nine more than we, than we thought would come. Then throughout that week, more people kept showing up Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And it started as a two week thing. We just said, let's just do this for two weeks. Um, cuz back then we didn't really know, like, 

[00:16:00] Dan: that that was what the pandemic was 

[00:16:01] Matt: Right, exactly. Yeah. So we said we'll just commit to this for two weeks. And, um, and we haven't stopped doing it in almost three and a half years, every Monday to Friday.

[00:16:11] Matt: And this I think is really, really important, is I. We just followed the energy of this thing. And, and I've done so many things, started and tried so many projects that were kind of lukewarm that then when this started to, I felt the energy around this. And we just said, we have to give this our energy because there's something here. When more people kept showing up, people were getting so much value out of it. And so we just chased that energy. And we kind of, and here we are, uh, now we've built a business on top of those free sessions. So we have a membership, uh, that, that people can elect to, to, to become a member, to help support the space and, and get all sorts of great things. But it started as a, as that, that moment, let's just open a room. And it turns out it was providing a space that writers needed, even in the best of times, a space of community.

[00:17:04] Dan: There's so much to learn there. I'm, I'm sort of, yeah, just lots in my brain. I think Chase the energy is, um, is it, it's funny, Pia. You know, we, we've had, we set up with a startup with a vision, and you want to achieve a certain thing, but actually you have to, along the way, chase the energy and kill off some of those ideas that you had at the start without losing your purpose. And I think it was it. So I'm seeing that sort of real follow, but also that sense of purpose. You went into that with a really open-hearted abundant question about what can we do to help people. And, and that seems like a bit of a magic combination somehow. Probably looking back again, joining the Steve Jobs dots. But that looks, um, that seems pretty powerful.

[00:17:46] Matt: and we had tried so many other things too that, you know, that some they kind of worked and, and, but when this one really worked, you, you'd notice we, we, we had done enough things that were kind of lukewarm that we actually, we, we noticed it.

[00:18:00] Matt: And, and I guess the other thing that, why this was a, a really beautiful experiment was that we were in the room with the people we were trying to serve. And, and with the chat box, we got to hear what people were feeling happy about what they were struggling with, what they wanted more support on. And so every day we're in the room with the people we're trying to serve, and we get to see where they're getting stuck.

[00:18:22] Matt: And so pretty soon after that, we started a weekly accountability coaching on Mondays and Fridays to top and tail of the week, because we noticed that people were having questions. And we said, okay, well let's hold a space where Monday, Friday you can bring your, where you're feeling stuck and we'll do some group coaching. And that became one of our first paid membership offerings.

[00:18:43] Matt: So it was this, this beautiful thing of just serving and learning, let's serve the people in a, in a way that. I feel like they need serving, but then let's keep listening and learning and then adding more things based on what people are saying and what they're looking for.

[00:18:58] Pia: And what, what Matt, do you think psychologically people were looking for? So, you know, you're coming to a space, they could have stayed in their own living room, but you're obviously, so they can communicate with you via chat, but not actually speak obviously. Um, so, so psychologically what's going on?

[00:19:17] Matt: And actually, so I should say that everyone's camera, they have the option to turn their camera on. And then toward the end, at the end of the session, we will actually call on a couple of people. So we'll just say, Hey Pia, how was your session? And you'll say, oh, you know, I had a great session or It was terrible. But I think the big thing is, you know, whether it's for your job or, or something, you just a dream you have, to give people the gift to know that after the end of one hour, you have spent time doing a thing that you've either struggled to carve out time for or you just have been avoiding, to know that you've done, you've made steps toward that thing feels really good. That thing you've been putting off, whether it's an important email or a report, or actually 500 words on this novel I've been thinking about. So it's, it's that gift of a accomplishment of doing a thing that you say you want to do. So I think that's part of it.

[00:20:14] Matt: And it's one reason why we, we like to compare ourselves instead of to other writing groups or, or communities, we actually like to compare ourselves more to fitness. It's like going to the gym, you know, it's, it's kind of, you never, you don't always want to go, but you're always glad you did. And with the facilitator there, that's kind of there to hold the space, cheer people on in a way. And then you have a bunch of other people in the room, which I think is maybe leads me to the second reason psychologically, why I think this space is so important is that just by being in a room with other people, your identity as a writer, people are witnessing it and, and you are witnessing it in other people. So there's this room of witnessing going on to say, okay, yes, I'm in a room with other people who are trying to do the thing that I'm trying to do, and it's reaffirming that identity of this place I want to be. This place I'm trying to get to, or this place I'm trying to inhabit.

[00:21:08] Matt: And, and people in particular, writers, for whatever reason have a very difficult time of identifying to say, I'm a writer. And so just being in the room, it really helps that identity reflect back and then in, in turn, encourage them to keep going.

[00:21:22] Dan: it, it's fascinating, Matt, and actually, I know we've talked about a fair bit on this show, but last year read, um, like a lot of people did, Atomic Habits and, uh, it, you know, it's, it's a much better book than United. Imagine. It's not one of these sort of, You know, as you know, it's not sort of right, sit down and do this thing.

[00:21:38] Dan: But where he ends really, to me is the core of it is identity, you know? And that idea of who am I? Because if I am a writer, I write. And I had a personal success with it by saying, right, I'm a musician, and, and actually then I've practiced because that's what musicians do. But it's so interesting that it comes down to that, who am I? And that this thing actually reinforces that and gives evidence to people to be able to say at a party when they say, you know, so what do you do? They don't just say whatever. They actually say, I'm a writer.

[00:22:08] Matt: I, I, that, that's so important. We, and we, that actually, Atomic Habits was one of the bibles that we used in a way to subconsciously, but also consciously infuse how we do things. The, the thing of, you know, tiny, tiny habits and, you know, just all, all these different things that James Clear talks about. We, we definitely, we try to infuse those in, in this space.

[00:22:28] Dan: the, um, environment you set up, I dunno if this is appropriate, uh, but reminded me of going to the library to revise at university. You know, you sort of why, why, why you could sit in your room and revise? Why, why go and because you go to the library and you cannot talk to anyone. I mean, it's, you're in silence. It seemed to remind me of that sort of shared endeavor somehow. But I think it was magical to hear that you've Krenn recreated that online and te sort of bottled that in a way that can be scaled.

[00:22:58] Matt: I think that's a really great point actually. And that's in addition to the witnessing, it's, it's the collective energy that happens. I mean, yeah, library, that's why people go to a coffee shop, just like there's a buzz of 

[00:23:09] Dan: there's people over there with a laptop and yeah. 

[00:23:12] Matt: that's, I think the other part of it is you're seeing 1, 2, 300 other faces, furled brows, and you know, people hard at work and you're like, so even if you wanna stop and you glance at the room, you're like, okay, well they're. they're. 

[00:23:26] Dan: I'll keep going. 

[00:23:26] Matt: So I'm, I'm gonna keep going too. It's, yeah, it's silly. It, it's silly that it works, you know, but it seems like we, as, as humans, we, it, it helps a certain type of person make sure they show up and do their work.

[00:23:39] Matt: We also, and maybe this is a James Clear thing too, of, of glorifying the process versus the outcome. So by just showing up, we applaud people. You might have written zero words, but you showed up and you gave it a try. And, uh, and that's it, is, is, is showing up. So we, so we hold the space to, to let people show up. Some days it's good, some days it's bad. Um, but the fact that you showed up like, we'll, we'll applaud that we see you. 

[00:24:06] Pia: I would imagine writing and if you're writing a novel, um, or something substantial, it's quite isolating. It's you, your thoughts. It looks like you'd need a quiet space, but in actual fact, I would imagine the thoughts in your head sometimes bring you to a standstill. So just by being in the presence of other people, you get the, you talked about that, you know, collective energy, it's quite, it's collaborative. Even though you're not actually collaborating on a project, you're just there as humans. 

[00:24:35] Matt: Right. 

[00:24:35] Pia: Do you get that as, feedback?

[00:24:36] Matt: Yeah, definitely. And, and actually, so I should say, so we top and tail the sessions where people share their intention in the chat. So they come into the room, we give a brief welcome, and then we say, okay, what are you we're here to work on today? We've got 50 minutes to do it. Do you have a, you know, are you gonna sit with your novel or you're writing a blog post, whatever it is. And then at the end of the session, we ask them, how did it go? Good, bad, ugly, let us know. And in the chat you say, wow, you, you see flying by. Wow, I did great. Over a thousand words, more than I thought. And some people say, I had a terrible session, uh, I wrote nothing.

[00:25:10] Matt: And you see that. So it normal, it gets normalized to not think everyone else is just having great days, but to say, okay, maybe, maybe a third of those people had like a really crappy day. And that, so when you've had a bad day, you think, okay. yeah, I guess this is just part of being a writer is some days are good, some days are bad. And so that normalizing, like, we want to be encouraging without being, like toxic positivity. So we're encouraging you, but, but acknowledging that, Hey, you've had a bad day. Um, we're so sorry to hear that. Uh, we hope tomorrow's better, but well done for showing up. 

[00:25:46] Dan: It's, it's a really, that's another atomic habit point, isn't it? James Clear says, if you have a bad day, it doesn't matter. Just, just try again the next day. And you what he said. It's like an election. You just have to win the majority of days. It's fine if you have bad days. It sounds like you are.

[00:26:02] Dan: It's a difficult course. Isn't it? Always? I mean, we, we've spent a lot of time with leaders as, as you have in your work and, um, trying to land that middle ground of yes, the goal is important, the outcome, you, you're going there, but actually the processes is the thing that will get you, get you there. And not ignoring the goal, but also at the sometimes actually yes, ignoring the goal. Just do the thing. It's, it's, it's complex to learn without actually doing it. But I imagine your writers are pretty adept at that.

[00:26:29] Matt: Yeah, like I said, it's, it's like normalizing the bad days too, you know? And just. Especially if someone, if someone's new to this, it's like any, any creative act, it's, it's half the time. It's, it's a struggle and, and to know, okay, this, I'm not doing it wrong because I'm having a hard time. This is just me doing it. This is just the process.

[00:26:51] Pia: And Matt, tell us, have you, have you had some amazing things published from your writers in, in this format? 

[00:26:58] Matt: Yeah. we have, it's, it's fun actually now because the traditional publishing world, the lead time to, from writing to getting it published on the shelf, it, you know, it could be over a year, uh, and, and sometimes longer. Um, so now we're actually seeing over the last year a bunch of people's work that's, that's coming out and we, yeah, we've had quite a few acknowledgements, uh, In, in books, um, which is really, really fun. 

[00:27:21] Matt: Yeah, so, and we actually do this thing now, um, where if a writer has a book coming out, we do a pub day pop in where we have them come in and they read the quote, we share a quote every morning, and they pick a quote and we celebrate their book. Um, and so we just had, we just had someone last week who, who wrote a book, uh, with us and we, she flashed up her cover and she said, I wrote this all in writer's hour. Couldn't have done it without all of you. And then you get 200 people just like 

[00:27:46] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:27:48] Pia: amazing. 

[00:27:49] Matt: It's really, really fun. 

[00:27:51] Pia: And I think it does. I mean, I love that phrase, collective energy. I think that, whilst you need the peace to get your mind together, it's a really powerful thing that you can have that peace, but you can also be collectively together virtually. I mean there, there are all sorts of things that would never have been invented 20, 30 years ago.

[00:28:12] Matt: So we, we were very fortunate a couple weeks ago, we were invited to give a talk at this thing called Ideate in London, which was sharing an idea that could change the world. And, and we were thinking, okay, what are all the things that we've learned from writer's hour? And one of, and kind of the, one of the main ideas was. You know, solitary work doesn't have to be solitary, and actually creative work can flourish in community. And what we've seen is that you can actually focus on your individual work, but be surrounded by others. And maybe actually you'll, you'll, you'll do more, you'll get further by doing it that way. And, and what if, you know, there were just like, you can go to a gym, CrossFit, soul cycle, uh, yoga class where people are individually working on themselves, but in a community. And what if more work, creative work that we thought to be solitary actually could be done In community? Yeah, and obviously layering in the silence and the, the, the, that, the sort of things that are, that need to happen for creative work. But what if they can actually happen in community and, and maybe we'd all be better for it. We'd all feel less lonely, which actually the number one thing that we've heard in addition to helping people make progress on their work is how less, much less lonely they feel, how, how it's been beneficial for their mental health.

[00:29:37] Matt: Um, especially we have people disabled, uh, bedridden in rural locations. People blind, like all like disability, all sorts of people who normally even in the best of times wouldn't be able to access the kind of energy that would be required, which might be going to a London or New York or something to be a bigger city, to be in this, this space. They get to, they get to gather in community from wherever they are in whatever state they're in, assuming that they can log into a Zoom call.

[00:30:08] Dan: Uh, uh, it's really wonderful. I'm, I'm sort of smiling cuz I think that all the work we do around collaboration and working together, it's so much about your mindsets and good questions and listening and, you know, all these things that, that, that, that are good. But I feel like you've put all of that in the pan and boiled it down to the, the, the, the raw essential of collaboration actually, which can exist in silence and it is just, Being with other people online or not. It's like a pure, pure version of that somehow. I haven't quite got my head around it yet, but there's something really special here.

[00:30:45] Matt: Yeah. I'll tell you what, as someone who like facilitated workshops before this, and that was, you know, there was a period between Escape the City and, uh, London Writers' Salon where that's what I was doing, leadership programs and, and you know, you're trying to design for outcomes and you're trying to help people, and I'm like, this is the simplest, most effective facilitation I've ever done in my life, and it involves one hour and 50 of those minutes. I'm not doing anything. I'm just holding the space. And I guess I, maybe that's like a, an insight, an in an insight for, for leaders or for facilitators or, or maybe people who are listening. Is, is, is there, is there something to that formula that actually you can have greater outcomes with actually less. Less, less effort? It's really well designed, but the design is in the, in the system. It's in the design versus in the 

[00:31:42] Dan: Yeah, it's trust the process in the, in the extreme level. yeah, 

[00:31:46] Matt: it's amazing what silence si, silence in community can do. It's, it's really special

[00:31:51] Dan: And it sounds like there's a lot that more broadly people can, I'm not even thinking about our community and what can be learned from this, but is there anything, what, what would you say. What would you take out for anyone who wants to sort of harness the ideas of this, what's a good way for people to start, do you think? Is there anything that they can make those first steps into this? 

[00:32:13] Matt: Yeah, I, I, I wonder if there's something. There's something around the simplicity, like I was saying around writer's hour. It's so simple, this coworking together. Maybe there's something there and maybe people listening will kind of lay around an idea if they're having Yeah, if they're, they're trying to think about that.

[00:32:31] Matt: Maybe the other thing I'd, I'd add is, I mean, I know as facilitators and you know, listening is a key element, you know, of what you do is to, to really listen. And there's something about this space being a container for listening versus advice all the time. Like we're sometimes we're just here to witness and to to be there as people are exploring their own things, and just to be holding that space as they try to do it. 

[00:32:59] Dan: I think that's, it's, it's interesting is that how much we feel we need to fill those spaces and give value through talking and actually giving a little 

[00:33:10] Pia: we we tell, we tell, we tell very quickly. Whereas sometimes if you just hold the space, then the answers emerge out of the space.

[00:33:18] Matt: And even, I mean, and we've, we've seen people, like I have friends and, and acquaintances who have taken this format into their teams where we say, Hey, he'll, they'll gather for an hour and we say, we're gonna do a, a writer's hour. They could call it a working hour or something. Just bring one thing that you're either procrastinating on, that you want to make progress on that's really important to you. And we're all gonna bring that one thing. And we're gonna just go around the room really briefly to share, okay, for this next, these next 50 minutes, I'm gonna work on this thing. And together we're gonna commit to making progress on this thing over, over those 50 minutes. And then we just share with each other when, you know, when we get to the 50 minutes.

[00:34:02] Matt: So even just holding that space of, it doesn't have to be writing, it could just be something else that's really important. To make some of these gatherings that we do on our teams, uh, just working sessions. Um, where we get to work alongside each other. We don't even have to speak. We just get to be with each other as we do important work.

[00:34:21] Dan: I'm pretty sure that our listener will be Intrigued, but also have something really that they can go out and try in, uh, whether that's their community or their own team and work or, or or whatever. I think it's a, it's a, it's a really, I think we've had a wonderful conversation with a lot of, sort of wondering and thinking, and I'm sure that our listener is doing the same thing. So, um, Matt, thank you so much for sharing this and congratulations on, um, what you've done, but also, Being able to unpack that for our listener has been, uh, been really wonderful. So thank you for

[00:34:53] Pia: it has been very insightful. Thank you. 

[00:34:56] Matt: well thank you. And, and both of you are welcome to, to join us and anyone listening, um, it's writershour.com. It's, it's free and you come and you can, you get some work done with, uh, people all over the world. So we'd love to see you. 

[00:35:08] Dan: that will be wonderful, Matt. That link will be in the, uh, in the show notes and we definitely encourage others. And I'm, I will, I hope to see you there sometime.

[00:35:15] Matt: We'd love to have you. 

[00:35:17] Pia: I think if I'd link it back to the top of the show and, um, and the Ilkley Live festival, I loved how he said, you know, you have lots of ideas that you think are gonna be great, and they're a bit lukewarm. And this is a really simple one, and it's really taken off. And it is such a simple idea. And he likened it to a gym, you know, that you, you sometimes don't feel like going, but you feel a hell of a lot better once you have been.

[00:35:43] Pia: And quite often you like going because you've. Surrounded by other people as part of it. And it's, that talks about that collective energy and, and actually chasing the

[00:35:53] Dan: Chasing the energy. Yeah. 

[00:35:55] Pia: that's in the, in the room. And they, they set them up and they debrief at the end and, and sort of quite a simple thing, but it's a good way to sort of just, really facilitate that process. And, you know, they just called it two simple terms, serving and teaming. You know, you're serving people and then you have the power of that, that team at that moment. 

[00:36:18] Dan: it was a brilliant study in, uh, in all kinds of team elements, wasn't it? You know, he, he set off with a really good purpose and then followed the energy. I think that's, that's so useful for people to, to feel, to just sort of have that in mind as you're tr, particularly if you're in a Startup and you can really, in any team really, you can shape what you do. Where is the energy?

[00:36:38] Dan: I think you and I have felt that in, in our world of Squadify. You know, even in a sales conversation, you know, what's lighting? People's sort of saying, yeah, that's, that could be useful for me. And when it's sort of, this is my idea I'm gonna share with you. And they go, oh yeah. Have you got anything else? You know, follow the energy. I thought it was really great.

[00:36:57] Dan: And I was, I, I thought his, yeah, his comparison with, um, the Atomic Habits was really helpful. That, that sense of, for a start, sort of feeling like you've moved forward on something. But also the strange way of. That's, that, that I know we talked about quite a bit with, with him, but that element of we, we are collaborating in silence. It's, so I thought there's something there about that if you boil the thing down, collaboration down, it's being with others and, and, and he's, he's stripped away all that stuff. Listening and talking and questioning and everything. And actually just the presence of others doing something, virtually or for real is, it's an eyeopener and I'd love to know if there's any research around that.

[00:37:45] Pia: Just holding the space, you know, which is a, you know, well used term, but it's a, it's a great illustration of it.

[00:37:53] Pia: I did also really like how having this opportunity opened up to all walks of life and all individuals It. It was open to all, it was totally equitable. It didn't matter if you were disabled, didn't matter if you lived in Timbuktu. As long as you've got, got internet access, you've got that capacity and no one's judging you for it. And that's a, that's a really, that's a, that's a very special thing. 

[00:38:17] Dan: There is a backlash now, isn't there against remote working? There's people, some CEOs trying to get people back in the office and keep an eye on, on people. They're saying that you can only collaborate if you're in one space. And it's worth remembering that those messages are from a place of, of not inc, of poor inclusion. You, you, you're not trying to say if you live in a rural area, you can work with us. If you are in capacity. If you can't, if you're not mobile, you can work with us. They're, they're not saying that and saying, no, no, you need to be, you know, fit and wealthy enough to commute. And you've got, you've gotta live in an urban area to come into this office. It's very exclusive and I think, as you say, Matt's vision is, is an inclusive one. It's, it's inspiring and well worth thinking about.

[00:39:04] Pia: Such a simple idea, but immensely powerful. I'll be really, really interested to see where it goes.

[00:39:11] Dan: Yeah, me too. And I think that we can use some of this ourselves, but I'd love to hear if other teams can do this thing sort of getting together to work together, even if you're not talking, but, but pushing, as he said, taking a thing forward, saying What's your intent for the session and then working on it together. 

[00:39:27] Dan: Um, I remember working with a big pharma company back in the day and they actually had two big offices and they had this sort of live camera in both coffee rooms. So you'd go into the coffee room, there's a big screen on there, and there's a coffee room over there. And sometimes people would be in the other coffee room and you'd say, hi, how you doing? It's quite, it's sort of reminded me of that a little bit, um, where you're just sort of there working, but not with any intent to do anything but be with others. And that is such a We Not me moment. So, uh, lovely to talk to Matt.

[00:39:54] Dan: But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes including loads of things from Matt at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:40:18] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.