WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.090 --> 00:00:03.300 Matt: Vo Feldman FIUs, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:04.110 --> 00:00:05.160 Thank you, Matt. 00:00:05.520 --> 00:00:07.020 I'm joined and glad to be here. 00:00:07.510 --> 00:00:12.190 it's been a while since you, you and I have chatted on record, so I'm 00:00:12.190 --> 00:00:15.250 assuming this will be really fun today. 00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:16.200 it's been a few years. 00:00:16.770 --> 00:00:18.840 Where is FIUs these days? 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:22.260 How have you changed over the course of the last few years? 00:00:22.290 --> 00:00:24.130 And, how's business generally for you? 00:00:25.345 --> 00:00:26.965 Vova: Yeah, business is doing well. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:33.610 In the past year or so, we expanded beyond the WordPress ecosystem. 00:00:33.610 --> 00:00:37.240 It was something that we, you know, always plan to do. 00:00:37.300 --> 00:00:41.740 Just we're not sure what would be the next kind of platform or ecosystem. 00:00:42.370 --> 00:00:45.880 And we're strongly focused on SaaS and apps. 00:00:46.525 --> 00:00:50.725 As obviously we can see what's happening right now, SaaS is exploding and with 00:00:50.725 --> 00:00:53.275 ai it's even, you know, happening. 00:00:53.335 --> 00:00:56.695 It's just became so much easier to start any type of software. 00:00:56.765 --> 00:01:00.755 so we've been doing that for, like I said, the last, year and a half. 00:01:00.755 --> 00:01:03.725 We went through rebranding process. 00:01:03.725 --> 00:01:09.965 You ask about several years, you know, so we grown as a team hired leadership team. 00:01:10.775 --> 00:01:14.915 I'm really excited about the people that I'm working with and helping me, you 00:01:14.915 --> 00:01:19.085 know, to get us to our next iteration, basically trying to be that go-to 00:01:19.085 --> 00:01:21.815 solution for selling any type of software. 00:01:22.985 --> 00:01:23.465 Matt: I love this. 00:01:23.465 --> 00:01:25.055 I love the rebrand, by the way. 00:01:25.105 --> 00:01:26.575 I believe I commended you on Twitter. 00:01:26.575 --> 00:01:28.405 If I didn't, I, I apologize. 00:01:28.405 --> 00:01:31.135 I should have the, the new rebrand on free. 00:01:31.135 --> 00:01:31.795 MIUs is great. 00:01:31.795 --> 00:01:33.145 frees.com 00:01:33.145 --> 00:01:34.915 links will be in the show notes. 00:01:35.215 --> 00:01:35.785 Of course. 00:01:36.370 --> 00:01:40.330 The new H one on the homepage says, simplify software 00:01:40.330 --> 00:01:42.580 sales, amplify innovation. 00:01:42.820 --> 00:01:47.990 For those that don't know, I'll, I'll draw the, the broader, outline and 00:01:47.990 --> 00:01:49.400 then you, you can fill in the color. 00:01:50.330 --> 00:01:53.340 Years and years ago, in fact I was talking that we, I just coming 00:01:53.340 --> 00:01:57.240 back from press conf, part of the conversation was, man, it's been great. 00:01:57.270 --> 00:02:00.510 It's great to be back in a room with a bunch of people. 00:02:01.140 --> 00:02:03.630 We are building WordPress software again, and, and like talking 00:02:03.630 --> 00:02:04.800 about the business side of it. 00:02:04.890 --> 00:02:07.670 And I was sort of, you know, reliving the past where in the 00:02:07.670 --> 00:02:09.140 hallway tracks of word camps. 00:02:09.140 --> 00:02:14.120 Like we were talking to Pippen Williamson of Easy Digital downloads and he 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:18.440 was like building the software for people as we were selling it, right? 00:02:18.440 --> 00:02:22.040 Like he was taking feature requests in the hallway and like, 00:02:22.430 --> 00:02:23.510 I'm gonna build this for you. 00:02:23.510 --> 00:02:28.100 And that's like the, the process we all kind of grew up in Frees really took. 00:02:29.600 --> 00:02:34.550 What I would say that took the throne of like the go-to place for any serious. 00:02:36.380 --> 00:02:39.120 At the time, WordPress, software business, right? 00:02:39.660 --> 00:02:45.790 Produce licenses, connect it up to, a e-commerce platform, and then have like 00:02:45.790 --> 00:02:49.840 these different modes of, of being able to sell and get emails and capture, like 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:54.370 you were really to simplify it like you were really looking at the big picture. 00:02:54.795 --> 00:02:59.085 Of the e-commerce world for WordPress agencies and product 00:02:59.085 --> 00:03:01.515 owners beyond just the license key. 00:03:01.605 --> 00:03:04.995 Whereas where like EDD stopped, EDD was like, here's a license, 00:03:05.235 --> 00:03:07.515 here's some cool graphs, good luck. 00:03:08.445 --> 00:03:12.075 Like you were building everything else, that infrastructure around that. 00:03:12.525 --> 00:03:15.585 Are you still trying to build that same infrastructure for 00:03:16.425 --> 00:03:18.465 WordPress software and beyond now? 00:03:18.825 --> 00:03:20.715 Like how has that changed, if at all? 00:03:21.655 --> 00:03:22.435 Vova: Absolutely. 00:03:22.435 --> 00:03:26.635 So actually before we got into SaaS, sorry, my cat here is going crazy, 00:03:26.635 --> 00:03:30.625 trying to climb on me and bump the mic, so I'm fighting with him a bit. 00:03:31.105 --> 00:03:36.885 so before we got into SaaS, we wanted to ensure that, you know, we can bring value 00:03:36.885 --> 00:03:38.895 and not just starting another solution. 00:03:39.475 --> 00:03:45.315 and we started to do interviews with SAS makers and our, customers 00:03:45.315 --> 00:03:50.145 and kind of understand why they like us, how, like what the things 00:03:50.145 --> 00:03:51.375 that we're doing differently. 00:03:52.005 --> 00:03:59.865 And I think our approach or realization is that, developers, technical founders, 00:04:00.045 --> 00:04:06.475 software makers, they can build software, they can innovate and you know. 00:04:07.165 --> 00:04:10.345 Offering them the tool to sell is one thing, but just 00:04:10.375 --> 00:04:12.055 offering the, that was the cat. 00:04:12.505 --> 00:04:17.705 But offering the, just giving you the, you know, the tool to sell is not enough. 00:04:18.545 --> 00:04:23.885 'cause just the payment part of thing solves you a technical problem, but you 00:04:23.885 --> 00:04:29.015 still need to think about the pricing, all the marketing automation in place. 00:04:29.015 --> 00:04:34.955 Like in order to maximize the, the money side of the business, you need someone. 00:04:35.765 --> 00:04:37.025 To direct you. 00:04:37.895 --> 00:04:44.075 Either proactively with advice or the, the, the platform needs to be opinionated 00:04:44.105 --> 00:04:49.865 towards your category of whatever you're selling in order to solve those things. 00:04:50.465 --> 00:04:53.825 Otherwise, there is a very long like learning curve 00:04:53.855 --> 00:04:54.935 that you need to figure out. 00:04:54.935 --> 00:04:59.645 Those things yourself and the commerce space keep evolving all the time. 00:04:59.645 --> 00:05:03.485 There are new techniques, how to sell, new things are getting popular, 00:05:03.485 --> 00:05:06.065 and now with ai, like usage based. 00:05:06.635 --> 00:05:09.875 Kind of pricing is something that became very popular. 00:05:10.025 --> 00:05:14.675 but what, what I like saying is that, you know, if I give you, like the 00:05:15.095 --> 00:05:18.005 fastest racing car in the world, right? 00:05:18.305 --> 00:05:20.345 You won't be able to get the most out of it. 00:05:20.615 --> 00:05:21.755 You need the team behind it. 00:05:22.325 --> 00:05:26.635 You need the person, you know, the, the engine guy, the, the people who 00:05:26.635 --> 00:05:28.585 will replace the, the wheels will. 00:05:28.880 --> 00:05:33.680 Whatever, you know, all the team behind, so we sing ourselves as. 00:05:34.615 --> 00:05:38.245 That team that offers you that fastest car in the world, but also 00:05:38.245 --> 00:05:42.595 gives you the backing so you'll know how to get the most out of it. 00:05:43.405 --> 00:05:46.735 So this is the approach we take and definitely, you know, 00:05:46.735 --> 00:05:51.265 looking on the SaaS ecosystem, the situation is the same, right? 00:05:51.265 --> 00:05:56.875 Building the app, the SaaS, like today with ai, it's becoming very easy. 00:05:56.875 --> 00:05:59.575 I mean the, the row initial MVP, I would say. 00:06:00.265 --> 00:06:05.095 But taking that and actually turning that into a business requires so much 00:06:05.095 --> 00:06:10.495 more knowledge, guidance, direction, experience, the right emails to be sent. 00:06:10.855 --> 00:06:12.835 How do you phrase those emails? 00:06:13.135 --> 00:06:18.835 The upsells, you know, the, the surveys that you need to avoid to reduce churn. 00:06:18.955 --> 00:06:24.025 There are so many moving parts and this is what we want to tackle as a whole package. 00:06:25.405 --> 00:06:28.465 Matt: I'm curious how you have managed to. 00:06:29.785 --> 00:06:33.145 What I'll call like this hands-on experience of like educating other 00:06:33.175 --> 00:06:36.325 entrepreneurs and, and guiding them through like this whole process. 00:06:36.835 --> 00:06:41.035 I'm curious on how you've managed to scale this over the years, and I would assume 00:06:41.035 --> 00:06:50.935 maybe you're still iterating on it because I like, I totally believe that unscalable 00:06:51.145 --> 00:06:55.940 things like this, like hands-on customer support, walking you through the product. 00:06:57.195 --> 00:06:59.025 Educating you, bringing you to the next level. 00:06:59.325 --> 00:07:04.425 I truly believe in that stuff, and I mean this in the best sense. 00:07:04.935 --> 00:07:08.105 My friend, our friend probably, sed bulky. 00:07:08.675 --> 00:07:11.555 I often think about when I look at things that I'm doing that are 00:07:11.555 --> 00:07:14.285 unscalable, I go, would Syed do this? 00:07:14.465 --> 00:07:18.305 And I think he would not do this right because he's a very dollars 00:07:18.305 --> 00:07:22.205 and cents optimize the business profitability, at least in my opinion. 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:24.830 But I can't let go of this. 00:07:24.830 --> 00:07:30.710 Like I love the fact that you're helping folks, but is it scalable and, and 00:07:30.710 --> 00:07:32.720 how have you solved it over the years? 00:07:34.190 --> 00:07:37.940 Vova: So we are still kind of figuring out how to scale that. 00:07:38.520 --> 00:07:40.350 it definitely come with the challenges. 00:07:40.590 --> 00:07:47.430 but I would say that like if you're thinking about the journey of a maker, I. 00:07:48.255 --> 00:07:52.135 You don't really need to have that high touch, kind of 00:07:52.645 --> 00:07:54.805 interactions on an ongoing basis. 00:07:54.805 --> 00:07:59.575 I mean, obviously that will be great, but there are like critical points in 00:07:59.575 --> 00:08:01.975 the journey where you need that guidance. 00:08:02.695 --> 00:08:06.775 And those are typically when you're launching something, right? 00:08:06.775 --> 00:08:10.105 When you're pricing and packaging something which can come in 00:08:10.105 --> 00:08:14.155 multiple, every few years, you better do some pricing and packaging. 00:08:14.905 --> 00:08:20.955 It's not like constantly there is how do I grow the team, you know, hiring my first 00:08:20.955 --> 00:08:23.805 developer, my first support engineer. 00:08:24.015 --> 00:08:26.895 How do I tackle my first, I don't know, partnership? 00:08:27.295 --> 00:08:31.225 until you get to the point of, oh, I am ready to sell my business. 00:08:32.350 --> 00:08:36.190 So if you think about it, it's not like we need to speak with 00:08:36.190 --> 00:08:38.920 every maker on a weekly basis. 00:08:39.400 --> 00:08:44.550 In fact, we had several periods where we had a full-time, call that, you 00:08:44.550 --> 00:08:50.730 know, maker success role, and we kind of posted, Hey guys, like we, here we are. 00:08:50.790 --> 00:08:52.500 You know, we wanna scale this. 00:08:52.500 --> 00:08:54.150 Like, meet us whenever you want. 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:59.700 And we actually saw that people are very busy and we didn't get like 00:08:59.700 --> 00:09:04.440 the, you know, the, the amount of interaction that we, thought we'll get. 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:09.880 so I would say a lot of that can be solved through educational content 00:09:10.420 --> 00:09:14.140 and just by guiding people to the right educational content, right? 00:09:14.140 --> 00:09:17.770 Because we're kind of conquering the software niche or previously 00:09:17.770 --> 00:09:20.320 the WordPress niche we tackled. 00:09:20.875 --> 00:09:25.375 Each of those growth stages and we have an article that is like hyperfocused on that, 00:09:25.375 --> 00:09:27.205 a video that is hyperfocused on that. 00:09:27.205 --> 00:09:33.955 So when someone either reach out to us or we know we see an opportunity that you 00:09:33.955 --> 00:09:37.455 know, they better, Consume that knowledge. 00:09:37.855 --> 00:09:42.175 we can just like very targeted, tell them, Hey guys, like look at this. 00:09:42.445 --> 00:09:44.695 If you want more than that, like, we're happy to chat. 00:09:45.535 --> 00:09:49.405 So I think educational content and the fact that we are very focused 00:09:49.405 --> 00:09:55.585 on the, the niche of software, like we can provide very targeted advice. 00:09:56.170 --> 00:10:00.280 Through content and not necessarily having that one-on-one conversation. 00:10:00.280 --> 00:10:03.310 Many times one-on-one makes it easier, right? 00:10:03.310 --> 00:10:06.040 Because you hear the story, you hear the background, the needs, 00:10:06.040 --> 00:10:11.290 and you can like tailor feedback specifically for the use case. 00:10:11.290 --> 00:10:12.460 And that's also an option. 00:10:12.550 --> 00:10:17.140 So like we are very encouraging people to schedule time with us. 00:10:17.545 --> 00:10:21.805 so I would say it's, it's a mixture of being reactive. 00:10:22.435 --> 00:10:26.605 To what's coming through support and encouraging and different. 00:10:27.490 --> 00:10:30.850 Touch points in FIUs in the software itself. 00:10:31.150 --> 00:10:34.780 Like in the pricing, we say, Hey, like if you don't have experience in pricing, 00:10:35.230 --> 00:10:36.610 you know, schedule a call with us. 00:10:36.610 --> 00:10:38.980 We're happy to help like in those places. 00:10:39.400 --> 00:10:42.430 And obviously we're very open, so if people are reaching out to us as 00:10:42.430 --> 00:10:46.120 well as if we see opportunities, you know, so we analyze data, look on some 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:49.900 things, we say, oh, you know, this person, they have an amazing product. 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:51.640 Like they should make more money. 00:10:51.820 --> 00:10:52.180 Right? 00:10:52.420 --> 00:10:53.710 Let's see what's happening there. 00:10:54.640 --> 00:10:56.710 But we, we definitely need to scale that. 00:10:56.710 --> 00:10:57.580 It's not there yet. 00:10:58.660 --> 00:11:03.460 Matt: At what point did you realize we have the go beyond WordPress here? 00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:03.490 I. 00:11:04.345 --> 00:11:09.915 Was it the dawn of AI and people starting to build, you know, you know, 00:11:09.945 --> 00:11:15.255 fools like me who have access now to, to code things and react and, you 00:11:15.255 --> 00:11:16.935 know, vibe code my way to success. 00:11:16.935 --> 00:11:20.325 Like at, what was it that, or was it previous to that and you started to 00:11:20.325 --> 00:11:22.575 recognize the, the shift in the market. 00:11:22.815 --> 00:11:26.325 What was that aha moment for you and your team to be like, okay, we're gonna 00:11:26.325 --> 00:11:30.645 shift away from purely WordPress and focus on all software at this point. 00:11:31.980 --> 00:11:37.620 Vova: Yeah, so it's a great question and I think the answer will be a bit surprising. 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:43.750 it happened before we started, before free use was established because my 00:11:43.750 --> 00:11:48.160 background is going the VC route, you know, building those startups. 00:11:48.160 --> 00:11:53.890 So when I started free use before having any product, I went to raise money. 00:11:54.820 --> 00:11:56.470 And I created presentations. 00:11:57.070 --> 00:12:02.230 And if you wanna sell, you know, a big vision to investors, it has to be huge. 00:12:02.230 --> 00:12:07.220 So I had to force think myself, okay, how big this can be, and 00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:09.650 WordPress, I mean, it's big. 00:12:10.430 --> 00:12:12.920 But it's not this big, you know? 00:12:13.280 --> 00:12:17.210 So I had to think that, okay, what would be next after WordPress? 00:12:17.210 --> 00:12:20.660 And I still have those slides, that there are many ecosystems. 00:12:20.990 --> 00:12:25.160 SaaS was actually not one of those options because the 00:12:25.160 --> 00:12:28.250 thinking was more about platforms. 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:32.240 Basically ecosystems that extend something, right? 00:12:32.630 --> 00:12:36.650 I did think about mobile apps, but again, those are conquered 00:12:36.650 --> 00:12:38.780 by Apple and Google, right? 00:12:38.780 --> 00:12:40.580 Because they own the distribution. 00:12:41.090 --> 00:12:46.400 But there are Wix and HubSpot and Drupal and there, there are many ecosystems. 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:48.910 browser extensions is pretty massive. 00:12:49.660 --> 00:12:51.850 but yeah, so, so it was always the plan. 00:12:51.910 --> 00:12:54.520 We're not sure when would be the right moment to do it. 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:59.320 And actually the timing it, it's not because of what happened, you know, 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.600 with all the workers drama or ai. 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:07.210 It's just, I would say that I got the right people to go through 00:13:07.210 --> 00:13:08.740 the process, do the rebrand. 00:13:08.770 --> 00:13:13.330 It just happened, you know, the timing was good and right 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:15.070 before all the mess started. 00:13:15.100 --> 00:13:17.405 But, so, so it was always a plan. 00:13:17.795 --> 00:13:21.335 I was forced to think big just because of those initial presentations. 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:25.700 Matt: I wanna talk about the pricing in a moment. 00:13:25.730 --> 00:13:29.130 I remember you starting FIUs, obviously many years ago. 00:13:30.420 --> 00:13:31.140 Lemme take a step back. 00:13:31.140 --> 00:13:34.830 I wanna frame this and, and I know you're not a guy who, who you know, 00:13:35.010 --> 00:13:38.330 wants any, you know, platitudes or anything like that, but I. 00:13:39.035 --> 00:13:39.785 Over the years. 00:13:39.785 --> 00:13:44.045 I think a lot of people have, at least not a lot, but I've seen it 00:13:44.045 --> 00:13:46.115 on Twitter and I've always tried to step in to defend it, right? 00:13:46.115 --> 00:13:49.925 People have always like questioned like, oh, pricing and percentage, and you 00:13:49.925 --> 00:13:53.285 know, all these other things that maybe the user experience as you've grown 00:13:53.315 --> 00:13:55.025 over time and I have to commend you. 00:13:55.025 --> 00:13:55.055 I. 00:13:56.135 --> 00:14:01.415 For holding your ground so positively, when you do get, when you did get 00:14:01.415 --> 00:14:04.775 criticism on Twitter and, it is always just like, man, people, 00:14:04.775 --> 00:14:06.605 what, what, what do you want? 00:14:07.115 --> 00:14:14.075 You know, like, what more do you need from FIUs and Nova's team, you know, to. 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:18.500 To just make the exchange, like you're not gonna build it yourself and you can't 00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:20.300 complain about EDD at the same time. 00:14:20.610 --> 00:14:22.500 so then what are we doing here? 00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:25.110 Like, freemium is gonna help you do all of these things, and Yes, 00:14:25.110 --> 00:14:28.510 you have to make an exchange for, a percentage of, of your sales. 00:14:28.570 --> 00:14:33.700 And I say all this because in the WordPress world, I feel like there's 00:14:33.700 --> 00:14:38.530 always that barrier where the person selling things are, they're just so. 00:14:40.330 --> 00:14:43.440 I mean, I, I guess price sensitive, for sure. 00:14:43.650 --> 00:14:46.500 But it's because they're, they're, they're trying to run like a hobby 00:14:46.500 --> 00:14:50.550 business, but also think like they're Mark Zuckerberg at the same time. 00:14:51.270 --> 00:14:53.790 And it's just like, you can't connect these two dots. 00:14:53.790 --> 00:14:57.910 Like you're either going to think and work on your business, but at the same time, 00:14:57.910 --> 00:14:59.440 like you can't complain about like a. 00:15:00.430 --> 00:15:04.390 6%, 7%, 8%, whatever the transaction fees were as you've been, you 00:15:04.390 --> 00:15:05.470 know, growing the business. 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:09.810 so I have to commend you on like standing your ground and being very positive and 00:15:09.810 --> 00:15:13.770 still adding more features and listening to the customers over, over time. 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:17.010 I would imagine that the WordPress space. 00:15:18.405 --> 00:15:21.195 Particularly you're, you're particularly challenged with that, right? 00:15:21.295 --> 00:15:21.955 over the years. 00:15:21.955 --> 00:15:24.625 Like people like, oh man, is it 5%? 00:15:24.625 --> 00:15:25.435 Is it 8%? 00:15:25.435 --> 00:15:26.275 Why should I pay you? 00:15:26.275 --> 00:15:27.445 Why should I do this other thing? 00:15:27.745 --> 00:15:31.225 I assume you hear that more on the WordPress side than if somebody 00:15:31.225 --> 00:15:35.395 was just building a random piece of software with React. 00:15:37.315 --> 00:15:40.435 Vova: So I think it's a matter of, you know, being used to things I. 00:15:41.125 --> 00:15:47.095 People are, it's challenging to when something that it's not the standard or 00:15:47.095 --> 00:15:49.705 not common is coming into an ecosystem. 00:15:50.335 --> 00:15:51.655 How do they digest that? 00:15:52.535 --> 00:15:56.525 so, you know, like when everyone, were used to WooCommerce or in 00:15:56.525 --> 00:16:00.875 general like plugins and WordPress, that you get the code Cs, you 00:16:00.875 --> 00:16:02.285 do whatever you want with that. 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:04.880 But you still need to plug Stripe, right? 00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:06.710 Or something else. 00:16:06.830 --> 00:16:08.180 You can just work without it. 00:16:08.180 --> 00:16:11.120 But that was okay because there's no other way. 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:11.600 Right? 00:16:12.230 --> 00:16:19.670 And I think the whole concept of, merchant of record, you know, or super payment 00:16:19.670 --> 00:16:25.520 processors, whatever you want to call that, it's just became more popular and 00:16:25.520 --> 00:16:28.310 known outside of the WordPress ecosystem. 00:16:28.310 --> 00:16:29.510 So it has. 00:16:30.725 --> 00:16:34.745 A longer track record, right, of being used. 00:16:35.165 --> 00:16:41.075 So if I'm a new player, a new maker, working on my first product, and I'm. 00:16:41.660 --> 00:16:45.650 Getting into X or LinkedIn and asking, oh, what should they use? 00:16:46.220 --> 00:16:50.750 And you know, you hear 10 answers, five of them are payment processor, 00:16:50.750 --> 00:16:52.280 five of them are merchant of record. 00:16:52.280 --> 00:16:53.810 Then it's like part of the norm. 00:16:53.990 --> 00:16:56.480 You know, in WordPress that simply wasn't the case. 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:01.100 So FIUs was kind of this, you know, different player. 00:17:01.280 --> 00:17:04.010 so it's, it's pretty normal and. 00:17:04.835 --> 00:17:08.105 We set holding my, you know, our grounds. 00:17:08.105 --> 00:17:12.825 Like we always listening and like when we started framing, the 00:17:12.825 --> 00:17:14.535 price was ridiculously higher. 00:17:15.525 --> 00:17:15.735 Right? 00:17:15.735 --> 00:17:16.335 I remember it was like 00:17:16.335 --> 00:17:19.785 Matt: multiple tiers and like, you had to calculate like, 00:17:19.785 --> 00:17:21.105 where am I gonna end up on this? 00:17:21.105 --> 00:17:25.305 Vova: There, there will experi, you know, I experimented with pricing and actuallys. 00:17:25.305 --> 00:17:25.785 Speaking of s. 00:17:26.955 --> 00:17:28.875 Like, he gave me good feedback. 00:17:28.875 --> 00:17:32.415 I met him in Loop Conference, I think it was in Vegas. 00:17:32.895 --> 00:17:34.395 And I was like, what do you think? 00:17:34.425 --> 00:17:38.725 And he gave me, he was one of the people that gave me authentic, 00:17:38.785 --> 00:17:39.745 you know, real feedback. 00:17:39.745 --> 00:17:40.555 No bullshit. 00:17:41.215 --> 00:17:42.050 so it was good. 00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:42.370 And. 00:17:43.120 --> 00:17:46.180 As part of the process, I realized in the beginning because it was hard 00:17:46.180 --> 00:17:50.140 to get those, that initial traction that I have to adjust because 00:17:50.140 --> 00:17:51.970 my point of reference was wrong. 00:17:52.120 --> 00:17:55.960 Like the way I looked on Fios, I said, oh, you know, what is the WordPress 00:17:56.410 --> 00:17:59.530 kind of what other similar solutions I. 00:17:59.910 --> 00:18:00.570 Our charging. 00:18:00.570 --> 00:18:03.570 And for me the closest was actually marketplaces. 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.440 'cause marketplaces solved all those things automatically. 00:18:08.020 --> 00:18:13.390 so I, compared to marketplace, which is incorrect, obviously, I also wanna, 00:18:13.390 --> 00:18:19.150 you know, say kind of what I learned and I, I did try to experiment like. 00:18:20.585 --> 00:18:22.415 If I could for sure. 00:18:22.445 --> 00:18:27.185 Let's say we reduce our price for WordPress by certain percentage and 00:18:27.185 --> 00:18:32.975 know that we can get much more makers to use frame, use much more WordPress 00:18:32.975 --> 00:18:37.235 plugin theme developers to use frame use, we would likely do that. 00:18:37.805 --> 00:18:41.555 But based on what we experimented, and I'll just break down the logic 00:18:41.555 --> 00:18:45.635 with you, you'll see that it, it doesn't make sense for us yet. 00:18:47.570 --> 00:18:51.590 I would say that for people who are just starting out, their product free 00:18:51.590 --> 00:18:53.840 use became no brainer in WordPress. 00:18:54.170 --> 00:18:57.050 'cause you don't need to pay anything, right? 00:18:57.110 --> 00:19:01.850 Instead of, if you go to EDD, you need to spend like 300, $500 something that 00:19:02.210 --> 00:19:04.220 is a newbie you don't have to spend. 00:19:04.610 --> 00:19:08.240 So you better go with a solution that it's free for you in the beginning. 00:19:08.660 --> 00:19:11.600 So I think we're in the, we are in the space right now that it's. 00:19:12.410 --> 00:19:14.120 No brainer to go with freemium. 00:19:14.330 --> 00:19:19.280 If you're starting a new WordPress solution, if you're already processing 00:19:19.280 --> 00:19:25.910 high volumes, that's when the the pricing kind of thing starts to hurt because you 00:19:25.910 --> 00:19:28.250 can like really see what it means for you. 00:19:28.250 --> 00:19:29.180 And you compare weight. 00:19:29.180 --> 00:19:33.020 I'm paying X amount of dollars, which is a static annual number, versus 00:19:33.620 --> 00:19:35.540 like, shit, I need to pay a percentage. 00:19:35.540 --> 00:19:35.870 Right? 00:19:35.870 --> 00:19:38.420 And you start to think, this is worth it or not. 00:19:38.420 --> 00:19:41.180 And I try to reach out to. 00:19:42.220 --> 00:19:46.240 bakers were in good friends and like really come up. 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.220 That gave me a lot of signals. 00:19:48.220 --> 00:19:50.590 Some of them, you know, are mutual friends. 00:19:51.070 --> 00:19:53.860 They gave me signals that they really want to use FIUs, and 00:19:53.860 --> 00:19:55.480 it's just a matter of price. 00:19:55.870 --> 00:19:59.470 And I kind of told them in a number, you know, like if 00:19:59.470 --> 00:20:00.880 that's, I, I wanna experiment. 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.340 I wanna see that this is really the barrier. 00:20:04.870 --> 00:20:09.040 And they came up with a number, and I tried it with several people 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:10.810 that are like friends, you know? 00:20:12.010 --> 00:20:13.600 And they didn't make the move. 00:20:13.840 --> 00:20:19.120 They figure out other excuses, you know, found additional barriers to 00:20:19.120 --> 00:20:22.780 make the trans like, you know, to block them from making the transition. 00:20:23.590 --> 00:20:25.540 So I don't think this is the price. 00:20:25.540 --> 00:20:31.090 Like if I would see evidence that this is the price and we can get, you know, many 00:20:31.090 --> 00:20:35.860 more makers to use the platform, like high volume makers, we would do that. 00:20:35.860 --> 00:20:39.730 In fact, if you go to our pricing page, we now show. 00:20:39.945 --> 00:20:42.955 like, higher numbers, like we, we are the only one that 00:20:42.955 --> 00:20:44.515 have like transparent pricing. 00:20:45.085 --> 00:20:46.315 It's experimentation. 00:20:46.315 --> 00:20:50.365 Everyone, like pricing apps, experts telling us that we're 00:20:50.365 --> 00:20:51.955 stupid and we should not do that. 00:20:53.005 --> 00:20:57.385 But we say let's be different on that angle and kind of give you, so you can 00:20:57.385 --> 00:21:00.025 exactly know how much you're going to pay. 00:21:00.855 --> 00:21:04.905 And it's kind of, the more you make, the less you pay and it's transparent. 00:21:05.515 --> 00:21:09.925 and I am pitching that to, you know, higher ticket makers, 00:21:09.955 --> 00:21:11.065 let's call it this way. 00:21:11.725 --> 00:21:13.405 And I don't think this is it. 00:21:13.405 --> 00:21:15.085 It's still there, it's still public. 00:21:15.295 --> 00:21:16.615 And we'll see how it goes. 00:21:16.675 --> 00:21:20.515 The goal is to try to get those, but I don't think it's surprised. 00:21:20.515 --> 00:21:21.895 There are other reasons and. 00:21:22.285 --> 00:21:27.055 Honestly, what I found is that people in general, you know, it's a big move 00:21:27.055 --> 00:21:32.695 to make a transition because it's like your entire payment and in addition to 00:21:32.695 --> 00:21:38.395 the psychological kind of challenges, there's also, especially in space, 00:21:38.395 --> 00:21:43.225 like personal investment, you know, because of all the issues in those 00:21:43.225 --> 00:21:46.255 solutions you had to yourself learn. 00:21:47.275 --> 00:21:51.895 And fix bug bugs and develop your own extensions to make 00:21:51.895 --> 00:21:53.395 it work the way you want it. 00:21:53.395 --> 00:21:57.775 So you invested in that, I don't know, like, tens of hundreds 00:21:57.775 --> 00:21:59.755 of hours in the past 10 years. 00:22:00.175 --> 00:22:03.805 It's emotionally so hard to give up on that, right? 00:22:04.015 --> 00:22:06.370 So until they will feel that. 00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:11.710 The issue like, like there is a higher pain, you know, something that they, they 00:22:11.710 --> 00:22:14.200 say, fuck it, I'm tired of this shit. 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:15.760 You know, I can't keep up with that. 00:22:15.760 --> 00:22:16.270 Or whatever. 00:22:16.270 --> 00:22:17.860 Something bad will happen. 00:22:18.790 --> 00:22:22.210 They won't really make a move and it doesn't matter what we offer them, and 00:22:22.210 --> 00:22:23.950 it doesn't matter what is the price. 00:22:25.810 --> 00:22:27.400 Matt: It's a fantastic observation. 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.010 I want to talk about the price pricing in a moment. 00:22:30.340 --> 00:22:33.490 Then I wanna get into AI as we sort of wrap things up. 00:22:33.670 --> 00:22:40.600 But first, can you define the value add of merchant of record and what that means 00:22:40.600 --> 00:22:44.440 to somebody who's just like, well, why don't I just do Stripe to directly, like, 00:22:44.470 --> 00:22:49.360 what does merchant of record mean to you and, and what's that value that somebody 00:22:49.360 --> 00:22:53.200 should be seeing in that headline, which is so prominent on the pricing page. 00:22:54.250 --> 00:22:54.640 Vova: Yeah. 00:22:54.850 --> 00:22:59.980 so I just wanna say that freemiums main differentiator versus something like 00:22:59.980 --> 00:23:01.960 Stripe is not the merchant of record. 00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:05.590 It just by chance happened that we became a merchant of record. 00:23:05.590 --> 00:23:10.120 That's another story I can, you know, keep it, but I will answer your question. 00:23:10.120 --> 00:23:11.980 Why to go with a merchant of record. 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:19.240 So, first of all, Stripe or PayPal, or other payment processors are not 00:23:19.300 --> 00:23:21.100 the same as they were 10 years ago. 00:23:21.925 --> 00:23:25.705 So 10 years ago, the price was 2.9% 00:23:26.155 --> 00:23:29.635 plus 30 cents for everything flat price. 00:23:30.085 --> 00:23:31.915 This is not the situation today. 00:23:32.455 --> 00:23:37.375 Today, when you selling subscriptions globally, there are additional, 00:23:37.725 --> 00:23:41.685 some of them are hidden fees, some of them are not hidden fees, but 00:23:41.685 --> 00:23:45.285 the effective rate that you're actually paying a payment processor. 00:23:45.840 --> 00:23:50.790 It can be easily two, three, even four times more than that base price. 00:23:51.735 --> 00:23:53.175 There is 1.5% 00:23:53.175 --> 00:23:55.035 for cross border transactions. 00:23:55.575 --> 00:23:57.615 Point four 4.4 00:23:58.005 --> 00:23:59.025 0.4% 00:23:59.025 --> 00:24:04.415 for, if you want to do like invoices, you want to do, taxes, just monitoring. 00:24:04.415 --> 00:24:06.185 It's another 0.7%. 00:24:06.485 --> 00:24:10.355 Like there is so many of those additional fees, so they stack up. 00:24:10.355 --> 00:24:10.745 So. 00:24:11.165 --> 00:24:12.275 The difference in price. 00:24:12.275 --> 00:24:14.675 I just wanted to establish that as a base point. 00:24:15.095 --> 00:24:20.015 The difference in price if you're selling subscriptions globally, not 00:24:20.015 --> 00:24:23.885 locally, is not so meaningful anymore. 00:24:24.005 --> 00:24:28.985 It's almost the same in terms of the benefits of merchant of record. 00:24:29.465 --> 00:24:34.955 So merchant record is the legal entity that basically liable for 00:24:34.955 --> 00:24:39.915 the transaction and the official relationship, the legal relationship. 00:24:40.935 --> 00:24:43.425 Between the customer and the seller. 00:24:44.175 --> 00:24:44.445 Right? 00:24:44.445 --> 00:24:51.885 So the way the structure works is that, let's say a software is using FIUs, then 00:24:51.885 --> 00:24:54.495 we are becoming their single customer. 00:24:54.645 --> 00:24:56.385 They're like selling us their software. 00:24:56.385 --> 00:24:59.895 We're legally reselling it to their customers. 00:25:00.645 --> 00:25:05.475 The benefits of that is that all that liability is moved to the merchant of 00:25:05.475 --> 00:25:10.595 record, which means that there are, re like we're responsible for the fraud 00:25:10.625 --> 00:25:13.665 for dealing with disputes, chargebacks. 00:25:13.915 --> 00:25:15.295 and there a lot of those. 00:25:15.445 --> 00:25:16.195 Gimme a second. 00:25:16.195 --> 00:25:17.305 I'm hearing my son coming. 00:25:17.305 --> 00:25:18.625 So we'll close the door. 00:25:23.425 --> 00:25:24.775 This is the way of working from home. 00:25:24.775 --> 00:25:26.785 You know, the perks. 00:25:28.420 --> 00:25:33.620 anyway, so, so for, for people who are just starting out, it's 00:25:33.620 --> 00:25:35.270 a big deal because of fraud. 00:25:35.600 --> 00:25:35.990 Why? 00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:41.060 Because if you are just starting out with a payment processor, 'cause those are 00:25:41.060 --> 00:25:44.000 actually, they call merchant aggregators. 00:25:44.030 --> 00:25:48.320 You don't establish a relationship directly with Visa or MasterCard. 00:25:48.590 --> 00:25:50.420 Like Stripe is that aggregator. 00:25:50.930 --> 00:25:51.530 So. 00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:57.980 There are a lot of like regulations and risks and you know, compliance 00:25:57.980 --> 00:25:59.600 shit that they have to deal with. 00:26:00.230 --> 00:26:06.230 So if they see a new account without historical, like track record of payment. 00:26:06.950 --> 00:26:13.280 Once you cross point 75% in disputes rate, you're immediately flagged as high risk. 00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:18.140 And if it's a bit more than that, it's very easy by them because they 00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:22.340 can't really predict how successful your solution will be, right? 00:26:22.340 --> 00:26:22.730 For them. 00:26:22.730 --> 00:26:26.870 You are nothing in hundreds of billions of dollars, so they 00:26:26.870 --> 00:26:31.310 don't wanna risk that hundreds of billions of dollars 'cause of that. 00:26:31.685 --> 00:26:32.645 No one right now. 00:26:33.005 --> 00:26:33.275 Right? 00:26:33.275 --> 00:26:36.725 So they will just block your account 'cause it's very easy. 00:26:36.725 --> 00:26:38.495 And there are stories like that all the time. 00:26:38.495 --> 00:26:42.215 So by using a merchant of record, because in the beginning you will not 00:26:42.215 --> 00:26:46.025 focus on building security to your checkout, it's just not your thing. 00:26:46.025 --> 00:26:50.225 You know, you wanna focus on launching as soon as possible an MVP, and see 00:26:50.225 --> 00:26:51.875 that there's demand for your product. 00:26:51.875 --> 00:26:56.525 You don't wanna spend, I don't know, extra two weeks just on securing your checkout. 00:26:56.525 --> 00:26:58.205 It's just not, it doesn't make sense. 00:26:58.625 --> 00:27:00.335 So by using a merchant of record. 00:27:00.890 --> 00:27:01.460 Because of. 00:27:03.335 --> 00:27:06.755 It's kind of a single account for Stripe and accountable for all 00:27:06.755 --> 00:27:09.645 those, transactions over the years. 00:27:09.645 --> 00:27:09.915 Right? 00:27:09.915 --> 00:27:14.295 We develop like multi-layer security, anti-car testing layers 00:27:14.295 --> 00:27:17.685 because we don't want to get fucked up because of that, right? 00:27:17.685 --> 00:27:19.665 So you get kind of an insurance. 00:27:20.350 --> 00:27:22.990 That your account will not get blocked right away. 00:27:22.990 --> 00:27:25.660 So that's the benefit for someone who is just starting out. 00:27:25.660 --> 00:27:29.650 For someone who is scaling their business globally, there's a whole 00:27:29.650 --> 00:27:31.570 headache of global sales taxes. 00:27:31.810 --> 00:27:36.310 So once you're just selling to a single customer in the us, 00:27:36.340 --> 00:27:37.960 usually a Delaware company. 00:27:38.515 --> 00:27:43.915 There are no taxes involved, you know, so basically all the global sales 00:27:43.915 --> 00:27:47.635 stack compliance and also there are like privacy regulations, there are 00:27:47.635 --> 00:27:49.675 compliances happening all the time. 00:27:50.635 --> 00:27:54.085 Becomes simply the problem of the merchant, of record 00:27:54.145 --> 00:27:56.635 of frames in our case and. 00:27:57.525 --> 00:28:01.095 You know, whether we comply with something or not, you shouldn't care about it 00:28:01.455 --> 00:28:03.825 because it becomes legally our problem. 00:28:04.605 --> 00:28:10.705 So I would say this is kind of the, the big differences, the big advantages, for 00:28:10.705 --> 00:28:14.035 like someone who is just starting out and how someone who is scaling and the 00:28:14.035 --> 00:28:16.465 price difference is no longer meaningful. 00:28:18.250 --> 00:28:20.080 So it was a long explanation, but 00:28:20.170 --> 00:28:20.320 Matt: yeah. 00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:23.200 No, but it, no, it, it makes, it makes total sense. 00:28:23.770 --> 00:28:25.210 Let's get to that pricing really quick. 00:28:25.210 --> 00:28:27.820 So if you're a WordPress and make sure, I'm just understanding 00:28:27.820 --> 00:28:29.080 the pricing page, right? 00:28:29.080 --> 00:28:31.240 So if somebody listening to this is like, okay, I'm gonna wanna move my 00:28:31.660 --> 00:28:35.170 WordPress sales over freemium.com/pricing. 00:28:35.800 --> 00:28:39.670 On the left hand side, the primary fee is 4.7% 00:28:39.670 --> 00:28:40.900 plus gateway fees. 00:28:41.290 --> 00:28:45.760 And then if I'm WordPress, it's a, an additional 2.3%. 00:28:46.300 --> 00:28:47.170 Am I getting that correct? 00:28:47.170 --> 00:28:49.930 So it's roughly 7% plus gateway fees. 00:28:49.930 --> 00:28:51.280 Is that a fair assessment? 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:52.870 Vova: That's exactly right. 00:28:53.830 --> 00:28:57.970 Matt: And when I start to, okay, so we've got the value 00:28:57.970 --> 00:28:59.590 down from merchant of record. 00:29:00.040 --> 00:29:05.350 marketing has like the affiliate program or platform, car abandonment coupons, a 00:29:05.350 --> 00:29:07.450 discount subscription recovery campaigns. 00:29:07.990 --> 00:29:12.640 I mean, just that marketing column alone, like those would probably be additional. 00:29:13.915 --> 00:29:17.935 Fees or you're buying some other plugin or you're buying some other service 00:29:17.935 --> 00:29:19.975 to, to do these kinds of things. 00:29:21.475 --> 00:29:25.585 Do you have those conversations with WordPress software folks who are like, 00:29:25.615 --> 00:29:30.445 okay, it's not just the 7%, it's the 7%, but you're getting all this other, 00:29:30.565 --> 00:29:35.575 you know, all these other service, a add-ons if you will, to help with the 00:29:35.575 --> 00:29:37.375 marketing and sales of the plugin. 00:29:37.375 --> 00:29:39.655 Like do you ever have to make that. 00:29:40.165 --> 00:29:42.475 Paint that picture to that person to say, you're getting all this 00:29:42.475 --> 00:29:45.775 other stuff too, or do they just look at it and go, man, 7%, like 00:29:45.775 --> 00:29:46.855 what am I supposed to do with this? 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:49.195 Vova: I think it depends. 00:29:49.765 --> 00:29:56.225 Sorry to tell something that kind of, one size fits all and it depends on, I 00:29:56.225 --> 00:30:01.625 would say if I look on kind of a spectrum of makers or people who are very techy 00:30:01.685 --> 00:30:03.215 and people who are business driven. 00:30:04.190 --> 00:30:06.950 It's very easy to sell for emails to business driven people. 00:30:07.040 --> 00:30:08.150 Yeah, right. 00:30:08.150 --> 00:30:11.180 They just want something that works and focus on their product, 00:30:11.210 --> 00:30:13.070 innovating, improving, et cetera. 00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:17.390 If they can delegate the entire, like operational headache and hassles to 00:30:17.390 --> 00:30:23.150 a third party, reducing legal tax liability, it's like very easy decision. 00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:27.830 If you're very techie, you want to control everything and customize 00:30:27.830 --> 00:30:32.240 everything and own everything and all, all those perceptional things. 00:30:33.035 --> 00:30:35.105 And it's becoming more challenging. 00:30:35.855 --> 00:30:40.865 And like I said, I feel that the price is not the main blocker. 00:30:41.135 --> 00:30:46.325 So I think that when I'm trying to kind of draw the story, 00:30:46.925 --> 00:30:48.545 I'm trying to explain that, 00:30:50.555 --> 00:30:56.585 like think about you have your own team that focused on your money. 00:30:57.590 --> 00:30:59.300 Because this is what we do. 00:30:59.360 --> 00:31:01.280 You know exactly what we do. 00:31:01.280 --> 00:31:06.080 We on a daily basis have a team that in addition to, you know, 00:31:06.560 --> 00:31:11.540 marketing Frees, but we keep improving the money side of your business, 00:31:12.020 --> 00:31:14.180 you just can't get it yourself. 00:31:14.990 --> 00:31:16.580 As simple as that and Right. 00:31:16.940 --> 00:31:20.450 The way we offer that is this like fully integrated. 00:31:21.080 --> 00:31:22.820 Business in a box solution. 00:31:22.820 --> 00:31:30.020 With all those best practices, looking on the entire customer life cycle, 00:31:30.020 --> 00:31:35.000 constantly trying to improve conversion, reduce churn, increase lifetime value. 00:31:35.690 --> 00:31:39.260 It's like there is all this, you know, minions behind the scenes 00:31:39.590 --> 00:31:41.360 trying to help you make more money. 00:31:41.360 --> 00:31:44.900 And based on like data we have. 00:31:45.740 --> 00:31:51.200 Hundreds of success stories, whoever move to free use, they're more successful 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:54.830 in free use and happier because it just reduced a lot of headache. 00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:55.460 Yeah. 00:31:55.460 --> 00:31:55.790 For them. 00:31:56.580 --> 00:32:00.870 so, so that's the, the story that I'm, you know, trying the, the 00:32:00.870 --> 00:32:02.700 true story that I'm trying to draw. 00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:07.320 And rather than trying to quantify, you know, this feature or that 00:32:07.320 --> 00:32:13.770 feature, I think the most like heavy re like resource that it being. 00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:16.590 Un noticeably wasted. 00:32:16.590 --> 00:32:19.230 Is the maker's time, right? 00:32:19.560 --> 00:32:19.620 Yeah. 00:32:19.620 --> 00:32:20.880 Like, oh, it's a little bug. 00:32:20.910 --> 00:32:22.530 Oh, it's a little update on it. 00:32:22.980 --> 00:32:24.690 But you end up with so many things. 00:32:24.690 --> 00:32:29.550 Maybe not in the beginning, but over the years it's like all accumulate 00:32:29.610 --> 00:32:33.150 and it's, it's just very costly. 00:32:34.230 --> 00:32:36.760 Matt: I think this is one of the advantages, transitioning over 00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:38.500 to, like, talking about AI stuff. 00:32:38.860 --> 00:32:41.470 I think this is one of the advantages you have right now. 00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:41.780 I. 00:32:42.515 --> 00:32:46.235 You know, I, I've been building these, what I call utility apps. 00:32:46.235 --> 00:32:48.215 I've been just, just so I can learn and experiment. 00:32:48.215 --> 00:32:51.045 I've been building like, WordPress news aggregators. 00:32:51.045 --> 00:32:55.665 I've been building podcast aggregators content that I normally interact with. 00:32:55.665 --> 00:32:58.995 I call these utility apps 'cause they actually help me with like 00:32:58.995 --> 00:33:01.665 the day-to-day work that I do with media and stuff like that. 00:33:02.325 --> 00:33:05.895 I haven't set out to do anything like commercial yet, but I, I feel like I'm 00:33:05.895 --> 00:33:11.245 starting to get, more foundation under my feet to be able to like build a, a 00:33:11.245 --> 00:33:15.725 web app, which I could never have done, you know, a year ago, with some apps like 00:33:15.725 --> 00:33:17.795 Bolt and, and Rep Lit and stuff like that. 00:33:18.185 --> 00:33:19.385 The point that I'm getting at is. 00:33:20.765 --> 00:33:24.515 With a solution like yours, I think people are going to, with AI are going 00:33:24.515 --> 00:33:28.655 to be hopefully more business driven, where they're like, I've got this app 00:33:28.655 --> 00:33:30.695 idea, I've got this software idea. 00:33:31.115 --> 00:33:34.685 I'm certainly not gonna build MIUs with my ai. 00:33:34.715 --> 00:33:37.565 Like I'm not gonna build a MIUs solution with ai. 00:33:37.565 --> 00:33:38.705 That's too risky. 00:33:38.735 --> 00:33:39.965 I don't even know where to begin. 00:33:39.965 --> 00:33:43.235 But I can make this like nice little utility app that I can sell to people. 00:33:43.685 --> 00:33:45.155 They might just turn to FIUs. 00:33:45.665 --> 00:33:47.435 And say, yeah, lemme just plug this in. 00:33:47.855 --> 00:33:52.865 Lemme just plug this in As my sales, as my e-commerce for selling this software. 00:33:53.615 --> 00:33:58.005 and I think that that's a particular advantage you're in, in the world of ai. 00:33:58.545 --> 00:34:01.125 Have you seen any customers come through that are like, listen man, 00:34:01.125 --> 00:34:04.875 I'm not even a technical guy person, but I'm building the software with AI 00:34:04.875 --> 00:34:08.625 and I just wanna plug your solution in because it's easy, fast, and I don't 00:34:08.625 --> 00:34:09.825 really care about the percentage. 00:34:09.825 --> 00:34:11.625 Like you said, I just want to build this business. 00:34:11.655 --> 00:34:14.355 And then they'll go out and market and, and get customers. 00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:18.630 So the question is, have you seen any of those types of creators come to you 00:34:18.630 --> 00:34:20.670 yet that are like, I'm not technical. 00:34:20.670 --> 00:34:22.710 I built this thing and now I just need to sell it? 00:34:23.910 --> 00:34:24.180 Vova: Yeah. 00:34:24.540 --> 00:34:29.430 So first we're talking about AI in the context of how to, I. 00:34:30.390 --> 00:34:36.150 You know, transition to be, I don't wanna say AI first, I don't feel we're there 00:34:36.150 --> 00:34:43.170 yet, but how AI becomes a meaningful part of what we do almost every week. 00:34:44.160 --> 00:34:44.970 so I. 00:34:45.510 --> 00:34:49.290 I didn't personally stumble into a situation of someone who just, you 00:34:49.290 --> 00:34:53.820 know, build some lovable thingy and, oh, I integrated with free meals. 00:34:53.910 --> 00:34:54.240 Lemme tell 00:34:54.240 --> 00:34:56.340 Matt: you, there's some YouTube channels out there who are telling 00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:58.290 people they can make like $10,000 a day 00:34:59.190 --> 00:35:00.810 Vova: building AI 00:35:00.810 --> 00:35:01.140 Matt: apps. 00:35:01.245 --> 00:35:04.950 Vova: So, so this is definitely one of the things that we want to. 00:35:05.680 --> 00:35:10.510 allow people to do, like, integrate, I think it's called MCP or something. 00:35:10.780 --> 00:35:13.300 You know, I'm a little bit remote now from tech because 00:35:13.300 --> 00:35:15.130 I'm no longer coding these days. 00:35:15.610 --> 00:35:19.990 but we definitely want to be in that, you know, play in that, 00:35:20.330 --> 00:35:23.490 field, of AI and make it possible. 00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:25.980 I don't think we want. 00:35:27.160 --> 00:35:31.720 Like complete junk, a hundred percent AI created apps just to make 00:35:31.720 --> 00:35:35.620 a quick buck and then, you know, we'll create a lot of chargebacks. 00:35:35.620 --> 00:35:38.050 That's 'cause again, we're the merchant of record. 00:35:38.050 --> 00:35:39.880 It's like pretty high risky to get those. 00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:44.590 But it is very possible that the future of apps. 00:35:45.445 --> 00:35:47.575 We'll start with people who are not coders. 00:35:47.575 --> 00:35:52.105 You know, people who are more business driven that go mock an app in one 00:35:52.105 --> 00:35:57.925 of those solutions and then pass it over to someone who is a developer, 00:35:57.925 --> 00:36:00.205 but maybe get that initial traction. 00:36:00.205 --> 00:36:01.890 They will want to connect that to a. 00:36:02.665 --> 00:36:04.195 To a payment solution in place. 00:36:04.195 --> 00:36:08.395 So this is definitely one avenue that we wanna play in and I'm already 00:36:08.395 --> 00:36:14.635 seeing competitors, like a new, new competitor, starting with that single 00:36:14.635 --> 00:36:20.815 feature, right, of being able to, with that, with the AI workflows 00:36:20.815 --> 00:36:22.405 to integrate the payment solution. 00:36:22.405 --> 00:36:25.145 It's very basic, very simple, but. 00:36:26.270 --> 00:36:31.760 We definitely want to be in a place where in every api, every AI like 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:34.430 app creator, you'll be able to say, you know, cool, it looks good. 00:36:34.430 --> 00:36:38.690 Now add it to free use and it will just spin you whatever is needed 00:36:38.690 --> 00:36:40.160 and integrate it with free use. 00:36:40.160 --> 00:36:44.260 And it's doable and, like we are on it, you know? 00:36:44.380 --> 00:36:45.850 So this is one. 00:36:46.405 --> 00:36:47.785 Kind of place we want to be. 00:36:47.785 --> 00:36:50.215 The other one is access to data. 00:36:50.735 --> 00:36:55.925 like right now, the insights and analytics that we show are limited 00:36:56.105 --> 00:36:57.755 to what we wanna offer, right? 00:36:57.755 --> 00:37:02.075 So yes, you can export the data and analyze it, can connect it to 00:37:02.075 --> 00:37:05.705 Gemini if you, you know, already using Google Sheets and all of that. 00:37:05.705 --> 00:37:06.065 But. 00:37:06.635 --> 00:37:10.385 There's no reason not to introduce this little, like, chat where you can, 00:37:10.385 --> 00:37:16.925 Hey, tell me what is, you know, the amount of money I made in this country 00:37:16.925 --> 00:37:21.435 in this month, and who were, I don't know, my top customers, whatever. 00:37:21.435 --> 00:37:22.935 Basically opening up. 00:37:23.505 --> 00:37:27.715 Access to the database in a more kind of free text, way. 00:37:27.715 --> 00:37:31.885 This is another thing that we want to do, and obviously insights. 00:37:32.065 --> 00:37:35.695 We have a lot of data and there's a lot of data out there in the world. 00:37:35.695 --> 00:37:42.085 So if we can mix two, right, doing things like pricing insights, right? 00:37:42.085 --> 00:37:46.045 So based on the data and what's happening outside of your vertical, 00:37:46.345 --> 00:37:50.005 we think you should increase the price here to this number. 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:55.915 So, so there is a lot of disinteresting opportunities coming with ai and 00:37:55.915 --> 00:38:01.135 we're strategically thinking about that and hiring data science roles. 00:38:01.465 --> 00:38:01.795 yeah. 00:38:02.395 --> 00:38:03.115 Where in the ai, 00:38:04.435 --> 00:38:08.725 Matt: h how deep have you started to adopt AI in the business for day-to-day stuff? 00:38:08.725 --> 00:38:11.065 Coding, marketing, content? 00:38:11.395 --> 00:38:13.975 Are you using it to find efficiencies for your own workflows? 00:38:14.515 --> 00:38:15.655 We're all using ai. 00:38:16.195 --> 00:38:16.345 Yeah. 00:38:16.930 --> 00:38:21.100 Is it a company mandate or do you, like, do you find that your team is 00:38:21.310 --> 00:38:23.080 actually interested to learn this stuff? 00:38:23.080 --> 00:38:26.080 Or are you having to be the, the person who says, go out 00:38:26.080 --> 00:38:28.660 and adopt this technology? 00:38:29.530 --> 00:38:35.640 Vova: So I think the dev team is very, you know, in the front of that, I also 00:38:35.640 --> 00:38:38.010 personally, you know, an early adopters. 00:38:38.010 --> 00:38:42.000 Obviously I shared it as early as possible with the team. 00:38:42.190 --> 00:38:46.240 'cause I'm, you know, working with AI probably half of my time. 00:38:46.690 --> 00:38:46.810 Yeah. 00:38:46.810 --> 00:38:51.070 'cause it's amazing in communications, in written communications, 00:38:51.730 --> 00:38:53.980 especially not only written anymore. 00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:54.490 Right. 00:38:54.490 --> 00:38:57.880 So I, I just see the power of it and how much time it saves 00:38:57.880 --> 00:38:59.890 is just, if you're not using ai. 00:39:00.865 --> 00:39:01.945 No, you are losing this 00:39:02.155 --> 00:39:02.455 Matt: space. 00:39:02.455 --> 00:39:02.575 Yeah. 00:39:03.540 --> 00:39:07.125 And this morning I made a, d script, DS script, the, audio video 00:39:07.125 --> 00:39:12.165 editing app quickly now becoming like all things AI video as well. 00:39:12.165 --> 00:39:14.565 I, I made a, a video avatar. 00:39:14.655 --> 00:39:16.905 It has a, a visual avatar. 00:39:17.385 --> 00:39:22.365 You write the script, it has a voice, it lip syncs to the avatar. 00:39:23.290 --> 00:39:26.380 All the effects, like transitions and stuff, and I made like a 58 00:39:26.380 --> 00:39:28.555 second like ad for WP Minute. 00:39:29.295 --> 00:39:33.045 It's just like, man, like this stuff, like it looks, it still looks creepy, right? 00:39:33.045 --> 00:39:33.975 I mean, they just launched it. 00:39:33.975 --> 00:39:37.905 So it's kind of just like, eh, it's not like you don't believe it's a human. 00:39:37.905 --> 00:39:39.060 Like, you know, it's give it a week. 00:39:39.065 --> 00:39:39.525 Give it a week. 00:39:39.975 --> 00:39:40.185 Yeah. 00:39:40.185 --> 00:39:40.785 Give it a week. 00:39:40.785 --> 00:39:41.025 Right? 00:39:41.025 --> 00:39:42.405 That's, that's exactly it. 00:39:42.645 --> 00:39:46.515 So it's like, give it a, literally give it a week, maybe two, and the thing is 00:39:46.515 --> 00:39:50.325 gonna look a hundred percent human and your, your, your mind's gonna be blown. 00:39:50.535 --> 00:39:52.785 And it really actually had me thinking, this is a little off 00:39:52.785 --> 00:39:56.325 topic, but it had me thinking, you know, maybe this technology isn't. 00:39:56.760 --> 00:39:59.640 For like the techies, like you and I and the folks listening to this. 00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:05.520 But if you're like a landscaping business, like a plumber and you know, 00:40:05.520 --> 00:40:10.350 concept of like content marketing and like putting yourself on a video and 00:40:10.590 --> 00:40:14.640 writing a good script and making ads and stuff like that, like this stuff 00:40:14.640 --> 00:40:18.120 is gonna be, I think, revolutionary for the small business owners as long 00:40:18.120 --> 00:40:19.530 as they can get it in their hands. 00:40:20.100 --> 00:40:21.930 I think that stuff is gonna be pretty powerful. 00:40:22.040 --> 00:40:24.290 for the folks who have never done this stuff before, I. 00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.880 Vova: Yeah, it, it's just, I can see my father using Chen 00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:30.890 GPT, which is kind of crazy. 00:40:31.190 --> 00:40:31.550 Matt: Yeah. 00:40:32.780 --> 00:40:36.730 Do you see, again, coming off, the trip back from Press Conf, Rich Taber talked 00:40:36.730 --> 00:40:39.440 a lot about this in, his presentation. 00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:41.280 Rich Taber, works at Automatic. 00:40:41.670 --> 00:40:44.220 He was talking about the use of AI and how like Automatic has, 00:40:44.550 --> 00:40:47.180 you know, really adopted a lot of, you know, a company wide thing. 00:40:47.180 --> 00:40:48.620 Like everyone has to learn ai. 00:40:48.860 --> 00:40:51.620 It doesn't really matter like which direction you're going in with it, but 00:40:51.620 --> 00:40:52.970 just like learn it and understand it. 00:40:52.970 --> 00:40:55.880 And I, I would imagine the directive is like, hopefully all 00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:57.050 this stuff benefits WordPress. 00:40:58.250 --> 00:41:03.630 He was hoping that word, that ai, that WordPress can be the CMS of choice for ai. 00:41:04.050 --> 00:41:08.370 In other words, if, you know, I don't want to, if I went to ai, I could build a blog. 00:41:08.370 --> 00:41:10.830 I could say, Hey, build me a blog database backend. 00:41:10.830 --> 00:41:12.060 I could make posts and pages. 00:41:12.390 --> 00:41:16.650 Why do all that when like, WordPress is already done for you, but maybe 00:41:16.650 --> 00:41:19.920 you want like it to be 10% different than what WordPress is today. 00:41:20.160 --> 00:41:26.190 So his hopes are WordPress can become AI's choice for building a CMS. 00:41:27.060 --> 00:41:31.680 What's your outlook on how WordPress survives through AI and being able 00:41:31.680 --> 00:41:34.380 to build any platform with AI coding? 00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:41.010 Are we in a good position or a slightly nervous position with AI in WordPress? 00:41:42.660 --> 00:41:44.940 Vova: I didn't think about it before. 00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:47.460 So this is Blaine. 00:41:48.030 --> 00:41:49.620 Five Second intuition. 00:41:51.770 --> 00:41:53.720 I think we're not in good place. 00:41:54.185 --> 00:41:58.235 And I think our achilles heel ears backward compatibility. 00:42:00.185 --> 00:42:02.945 yeah, that's probably my answer. 00:42:03.485 --> 00:42:09.440 You know, we can't, like, if we would want to adapt to that world, we would 00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:15.005 have to reimagine WordPress from, at least from a cold base as a start. 00:42:16.235 --> 00:42:17.135 'cause you can't like. 00:42:18.170 --> 00:42:23.000 Keep staying backward compatible and using the latest technology and move 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:26.390 fast like this, like as we said, right. 00:42:26.780 --> 00:42:27.560 Every week. 00:42:27.590 --> 00:42:29.150 It's just moving so fast. 00:42:29.300 --> 00:42:29.720 Matt: Yeah. 00:42:30.260 --> 00:42:34.070 Vova: And I think that's another weakness, you know, the whole community 00:42:34.070 --> 00:42:36.890 driven, like decisions are slow. 00:42:37.520 --> 00:42:37.670 Yeah. 00:42:37.670 --> 00:42:42.740 Unless you appoint someone that will be moving fast, dictating like a squad team, 00:42:42.740 --> 00:42:44.750 you know, whether it's automatic or. 00:42:46.265 --> 00:42:50.405 Some squad team that has the mandate to move fast. 00:42:50.615 --> 00:42:54.125 But if you wanna move fast, you can do backward compatible Right, as well. 00:42:54.125 --> 00:42:54.575 So 00:42:55.775 --> 00:42:56.915 Matt: I, I was thinking like. 00:42:57.860 --> 00:43:00.380 When I started to learn AI and I was thinking, man, you know what? 00:43:00.380 --> 00:43:02.810 Blocks actually sounds pretty good. 00:43:03.200 --> 00:43:06.050 Like in a world where ai, where you just can prompt it, wouldn't 00:43:06.050 --> 00:43:10.460 it be great if it just like looked at a core set of WordPress blocks? 00:43:10.850 --> 00:43:12.320 I was like, oh, this is what you're looking for. 00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:13.370 Like, here's all these blocks. 00:43:13.370 --> 00:43:15.320 Let, let's, let's build it that way. 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:18.500 And obviously right now that's just like content, but maybe in 00:43:18.500 --> 00:43:21.500 the future that would be like admin screen or, and, and things like that. 00:43:21.500 --> 00:43:23.570 And I was like, wow, the concept of blocks actually kind of 00:43:23.570 --> 00:43:25.040 makes sense with this AI thing. 00:43:25.670 --> 00:43:26.630 I think you're absolutely right. 00:43:26.630 --> 00:43:31.250 It's just like if you're in the past and you're backwards, compat 00:43:31.460 --> 00:43:32.690 compatibility with everything. 00:43:32.690 --> 00:43:35.210 I think AI is always gonna be thinking about like, what 00:43:35.210 --> 00:43:36.230 is the latest and greatest? 00:43:36.230 --> 00:43:38.630 What is the fastest, what is the most optimized? 00:43:39.710 --> 00:43:42.050 And it's probably just gonna look at it and go write these 12 lines of 00:43:42.050 --> 00:43:47.870 JavaScript instead of these 80 lines of PHP that you wrote like 15 years ago. 00:43:48.350 --> 00:43:54.050 Vova: I think it's also another, again, this is completely uneducated thinking. 00:43:54.140 --> 00:43:56.600 I didn't think through this stuff, but 00:43:58.340 --> 00:43:58.670 Matt: improvised, 00:43:58.670 --> 00:44:00.620 Vova: that's largely what the show is about, by the way. 00:44:00.620 --> 00:44:00.770 But 00:44:01.190 --> 00:44:04.340 Matt: very few people are good, good, especially me, are thinking things 00:44:04.340 --> 00:44:05.211 through when we're talking here. 00:44:06.845 --> 00:44:08.480 Vova: So take it with a grain of soul. 00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:13.610 But the way I think about it, like WordPress and the 00:44:13.610 --> 00:44:15.590 block editor are still in. 00:44:17.345 --> 00:44:20.615 It's still not mature, right? 00:44:20.615 --> 00:44:27.775 So it's still a premature, like move by WordPress, automatic everything. 00:44:28.585 --> 00:44:32.545 And now there is the ai, and I know how hard it is to 00:44:32.545 --> 00:44:34.000 focus on two things in Parler. 00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:40.345 So on one hand we want to be the best builder, right? 00:44:40.345 --> 00:44:42.955 On the other hand, suddenly we need to think ai. 00:44:44.110 --> 00:44:46.000 What's more, more important? 00:44:47.200 --> 00:44:47.500 Matt: Yeah. 00:44:48.100 --> 00:44:50.500 Vova: Ask me ai probably, yeah. 00:44:50.710 --> 00:44:51.760 Not the blog builder. 00:44:52.090 --> 00:44:52.930 I don't know, man. 00:44:52.990 --> 00:44:56.410 I'm happy I'm not in the need to make those decisions. 00:44:56.470 --> 00:44:56.800 Matt: Yeah. 00:44:58.570 --> 00:45:00.520 Feldman freeman.com. 00:45:00.700 --> 00:45:05.380 Miriam Schwab from Elementor did a really personal address 00:45:05.380 --> 00:45:07.840 to the press con audience. 00:45:08.405 --> 00:45:12.425 during press conference talking about what it's like to live and work 00:45:12.425 --> 00:45:17.380 in Israel in a time of war, and it was a really moving presentation. 00:45:17.510 --> 00:45:19.190 I hope you are doing well. 00:45:19.190 --> 00:45:24.520 I hope your family is doing well, and, I don't envy the situation. 00:45:24.520 --> 00:45:28.870 I don't know if it's the same as you with Miriam, but, it sounds, 00:45:28.930 --> 00:45:32.500 pretty, heart wrenching to be, you know, trying to work and then. 00:45:33.115 --> 00:45:36.865 Getting an app notification that there's attacks happening and you 00:45:36.865 --> 00:45:41.095 have to go into a bunker for 30 minutes and, and wait for things. 00:45:41.095 --> 00:45:44.945 And, it, you know, it was very moving presentation and you know, I just 00:45:44.945 --> 00:45:48.495 hope that you and, and yours are, healthy and safe through all of this. 00:45:49.040 --> 00:45:49.720 Vova: I appreciate that. 00:45:51.135 --> 00:45:52.275 Matt: mius.com. 00:45:52.425 --> 00:45:55.215 You can check out Vva and his team@mius.com, 00:45:55.325 --> 00:45:56.165 podcast too. 00:45:56.165 --> 00:45:56.525 Right? 00:45:56.555 --> 00:45:58.685 Where, where can folks go for the podcast? 00:45:58.685 --> 00:45:58.745 I. 00:45:59.765 --> 00:46:00.845 Vova: Plugin fm. 00:46:01.685 --> 00:46:01.955 Matt: That's 00:46:01.955 --> 00:46:02.615 Vova: right. 00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:03.050 Matt: Easy. 00:46:03.125 --> 00:46:05.165 Now you gonna switch it to software fm 00:46:05.885 --> 00:46:10.355 Vova: now that where No, that, that was a, a perfect name because it's a play word. 00:46:10.355 --> 00:46:14.285 Like when we started to, you know, when we picked the name, obviously 00:46:14.285 --> 00:46:18.495 it resonated with, you know, work audience, but also it's a in 00:46:19.545 --> 00:46:20.085 Matt: Yes. 00:46:20.085 --> 00:46:20.985 Very good, very good. 00:46:20.985 --> 00:46:22.515 Plugin, fm frees.com. 00:46:22.755 --> 00:46:24.105 As always, it's a pleasure talking to you. 00:46:24.885 --> 00:46:25.485 Vova: Thanks man. 00:46:25.485 --> 00:46:26.175 It was a pleasure.