Elle: So product marketers
look at metrics from
all over the business.
One metric that's, uh,
commonly tracked is win-loss.
There are many factors that
influence win-loss from sales
effectiveness to positioning.
Today we're gonna talk
about how one product
marketer studied win-loss
deals and turned it into
highly targeted pre-sales
marketing program for Twilio.
With that, it is my
pleasure to have Brandon
Penn on the show.
So let me tell you.
Why I've always been
blown away by Brandon.
He's a B2B, marketing and
go-to market leader who
has helped scale some of
the biggest names in tech.
So he built enterprise go-to
market programs at Twilio.
during the hyper growth
period, he ran marketing at
Shopify Logistics, which was
later acquired by Flexport.
And most recently he was
head of Marketing at Runway.
That's a finance startup,
rethinking business planning.
Brandon's got a deep
understanding of what it
takes to drive growth, tell
compelling stories, and build
brands that really stand out.
So Brandon, thank
you for being here.
It's amazing to have
you on the show.
Brandon: Awesome.
so excited to be here.
And, you know, as I was
prepping actually for,
for today's podcast, I was
thinking about like the
last time I did a podcast.
And it's been a while.
Uh, I don't do too many of
them, but when you reached
out and you told me about
what you're building,
I could not say no.
So very excited to be here.
Elle: Awesome.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate that.
well, let's dive right in.
I.
wanna hear about two
different things.
Brandon, first for our
listeners, what is Twilio?
And then tell me more
about what was going on
at Twilio when you created
this highly targeted A BM
program with the sales team?
Brandon: Yeah, sure.
So to set the stage for
those unfamiliar with Twilio
while its messaging has
evolved over the years since
you and I have been there.
fundamentally it's a suite
of communication APIs, and
so if you want to add SMS
email, voice, et cetera
to your product, you can
essentially use Twilio suite
of APIs, to build those
into your product suite.
and so I joined Twilio at
a very interesting, time.
This was 2017, a point where
Twilio had already been
public for about a year.
Uh, but there was this very
big initiative internally
to focus on moving up
market and successfully,
cracked the enterprise.
And so my role at Twilio
and I joined in 2017 was on
the solution marketing team,
where I focused specifically
on, competitive intelligence
and win-loss analysis.
And so what this meant was.
My day-to-day involves
analyzing data within
our CRM interviewing
customers who chose Twilio.
and at the same time, more
importantly, those who also
didn't move forward with, with
Twilio to really understand
the reasons why we were
winning and losing deals.
And the biggest insight
from my time doing
this analysis was.
even though the data showed,
uh, we were losing to some
competitors that came up
in various verticals of
the business, the biggest
reason actually that Twilio
was losing certain deals.
Was, this was ultimately
the status quo.
That was the
number one reason.
It was companies deciding
not to move forward
with Twilio because they
couldn't understand really
the, the full impact
of the ROI on Twilio.
And at the same time, again,
going back to the suite of
API communications, where
to start building and how
to get the most value out
of the different use cases.
And so with this insight,
uh, I partnered very closely
with yourself and the rest of
the product marketing team.
To create battle cards.
Objection handling materials.
Really work on refining
our positioning to enable
our sales teams on how to
compete more effectively.
and that also led to
myself hopping into deals,
to support the reps and
talking to prospects on,
here are the things that
you can do with Twilio.
we, as you're very familiar
with, broke it up into like
a crawl, rock run format
that was hyper tailored to
the size of the company, the
industry that they were in.
But also what they were
ultimately trying to
achieve from a digital
transformation standpoint.
and so in terms of, you
know, the impact that that
had, we would go in, we
would share these awesome
storyboards, these technical
blueprints, these ROI
analyses, and we really
just started to see our, our
sales cycle, just take off.
We saw a really cool
percentage increase in
terms of deal expansion.
And because these prospects
understood, okay, here's how
I can get started tomorrow.
and the value of adopting
each use case as they scaled.
Uh, we also saw a deal
acceleration, which
was really, really
amazing to see as well.
Especially enterprise cycles,
you know, can be anywhere from
six months, uh, or longer.
And so being able to speed
up the velocity of those
cycles was an amazing win.
Elle: Wow.
Okay, so I, there's a lot
that you gave here and I just
wanna unpack a little bit.
So one thing you mentioned
is the, one reason why Twilio
was losing deals and that's
to do nothing, and that's
so often overlooked when
doing win-loss analysis.
I think product marketers can
be so focused on competitors,
competitors, competitors.
There is another option, which
is to not do anything at all.
And sometimes you lose to
doing nothing instead of
losing to a competitor.
And that's still something
that the sales team needs
to be equipped to handle.
and it sounds like not
only did this program
work in competitive
situations, but also in
non-competitive situation
when the alternative to.
Using your product is to
do, use nothing at all.
so I just wanted to call
that out that this program
that you've created, is
applicable to both situations.
the other thing that's I, uh,
wanted to call out is that
in order to get to the point
where you realized, hey, we
should put together this.
Hyper targeted a BM program
where we're building out these
use cases and blueprints.
you had to study deals and
you had to go really deep into
what customers needed to see
before they engaged in a deal.
Okay, let's back
up for a minute.
Let's say that I wanted to try
to replicate, or, iterate on
a similar, initiative in my
role in my organization like,
let's say I wanted to increase
win rates for my product.
What I wanna do with you,
Brandon, is outline the steps
that A PMM would need to take.
So it sounds like step
one would be to study
win-loss data, right?
Understand why we
are losing deals.
And it sounds like for in the
situation, that you were in,
or I guess that Twilio was
in, was that they discovered
that, Twilio was losing deals
because of perceived value.
So let's say that we've
accomplished that.
I've studied my win-loss data.
I've discovered that
my customers have a,
misperception of value
for what my product
does or, or can do.
I guess what's the next step?
Where do I go from here?
Brandon: Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that's
a really great point.
And I'd say even to, to
simplify it further, at
Twilio we have this value of
wearing the customer's shoes.
And great marketing isn't
about what we want to say.
It's about what our
customers need to hear.
And I find that the best
brands and the best product
marketers, I'd argue that
actually product marketers
more than any function
in the org, uh, should be
the most customer obsessed
because that's ultimately how
you can create real value.
And if you don't start
with a customer, I think
just first principles,
nothing else matters.
And so, I, I guess the
message that I'm trying to
get across here is, product
marketers should have the
deepest understanding, and
that's really what I focused
on, is like, how can I get
the deepest understanding?
How can I not just take
this, like the data
that our sales reps were
inputting into our CRM and
take that at face value.
How can I code deeper
and actually speak to the
customers to understand,
uh, firsthand why we're
winning and losing?
And so, I bring this up
because I'm not gonna
recommend that, like
there's a playbook or,
or a step, uh, that like
every team should take when
trying to replicate this.
I ultimately think it depends
on where your business
is currently at, what
that data is telling you.
And so I think starting with a
customer really helps do that.
And I can't imagine, just like
I. How easy it is nowadays.
I mean, I spent like hours
and days analyzing a lot
of this data, but now with
a lot of these AI tools,
it just makes it so much
easier to, to gather
that data, which is,
which is crazy.
uh, it's really crazy.
It's been, it's been fun using
tools like I. Uh, of course
Jet, GBT, but like you.com
and grok now, uh, to do like
deep research on the market,
the, the competitive landscape
and what that looks like,
and how you can use a lot of
that to inform your decisions
and what you're trying
to do, internally from a
product marketing standpoint.
So your question about,
this concept of value,
you know, when folks hear
the word value, I think.
Oftentimes they
immediately jump to price.
Oh, it's because
we're priced too high.
But value is so
much more than that.
Value in addition to the
cost of something is how
are you going to get the
most out of the solution?
How easy is it?
It to build or implement
this, product into your
day-to-day operations.
Is it saving you time?
Are you seeing an
increase in efficiency?
What are those things?
And ultimately, at
Twilio, what we focused
on is really just helping
customers understand that.
So we would spend time
gathering inputs to say.
Okay.
You know, how many, just
as a, as a, an example,
how many messages are
you trying to send?
What is your current cost
on if you had an existing
solution, what was that?
how many hours would you say
you spend time doing this?
And based off of a lot of
the benchmarks and data that
we had internally from our
customers, which was a, a huge
benefit at Twilio, we were
able to actually build these
really cool ROI calculators
for the various use cases
that customers can just
input their data and see.
for example, when the ROI
would be, what would be,
uh, the ROI on year one,
year two, year three, where
ultimately, it would pay
for like purchasing, Twilio
would pay for itself.
you know, twofold, threefold,
just because of the impact
they were able to see within
their business as a whole.
Elle: Got it.
Okay.
So what I love about
this is that you.
Took the data that you were
able to discover internally
and not only use it as
insights for bettering
your sales team, improving
efficiency or effectiveness,
I should say, of the
enablement for sales, but
also making it available to
customers to get value from.
That's really interesting.
and I know this isn't
something we talked about,
when we were preparing for
this conversation, but can
you tell me a little bit more
about how would one create
a value or ROI calculator?
obviously it starts with some
kind of benchmark data that
you have to get somewhere.
Best place to get that
is internally, of course.
any other tips about that?
Brandon: Yeah.
So, when we were building
these ROI calculators,
we were using, Google
Sheets or Microsoft Excel.
Actually, Microsoft Excel was
the preferred just because
of the, the capabilities
of the macros and what
you're able to build with.
Within the certain files.
And so to your point, yes,
a lot of it started with
gathering kind of benchmarks.
And so what we looked at
at Twilio was, an example,
actually, a good place to
start is, every company
nowadays, I feel like social
proof is just becoming,
uh, incredibly important.
you know, has customer
stories, has case studies,
and within those case studies
and within these interviews,
you're oftentimes asking
like, what was the impact
of purchasing this solution
or, or implementing it.
And so those impacts could
be anything from cost
savings, time savings.
you can essentially take
those inputs, aggregate
them across various
industries or company size.
And what you'll get is
like loose benchmarks on,
hey, these are the average,
as to what customer's
experience on top of using
your product or solution.
And so that's where we
started as like one input.
Uh, obviously there's,
there's other inputs,
but we essentially
built these calculators
using those benchmarks.
And so, all the customer or
prospect had to do is saying,
okay, if you wanna understand
the ROI or the perceived
impact of implementing, let's
say, personalized emails
using Twilio, SendGrid, uh,
you would essentially input
those, Things that we need
in the calculator and it
would spit out like, okay,
here's the expected ROI
and what you should see.
you know, most of the
time that's really
what customers wanted.
Now we weren't promising.
That was like, okay,
you're gonna see this.
but we were saying like, Hey,
this is very much built on top
of our customer benchmarks.
And so, based off of companies
that are similar to you.
Your size, your industry,
this is what they saw.
and we have high conviction
that what we're looking at and
evaluating today will drive
the same results for you.
Elle: Yeah, absolutely.
So with the ROI calculator,
was it more of a sales
enablement tool and the
seller would maybe walk
through it with a customer
live, or was it like a
polished, webpage that a
customer kind of self-serve?
And put things on their own.
Brandon: Yeah, great question.
So it was primarily a tool
that we focused a lot on
enabling our global sales
team on how to best use.
Um, so we had a great
sales and inland team
that we partnered with.
To essentially host these ROI
calculators in our CMS, and
then we would train our reps
on being able to effectively.
Open up the calculator,
make a copy, and use
it for their deals.
And if for whatever reason
it was a more comprehensive
analysis that was needed,
they would actually just
ping, uh, myself and the
team directly and we would
hop in, as I mentioned,
to support our sales reps
and our strategic AEs.
With being able to run these
ROI and economic analyses for
our prospects and clients.
and then to your point, it
actually later then turned
into a growth channel.
And so, uh, shout out
to, uh, Kavia Gupta on my
team at the time who took
this and actually worked
really closely, uh, with
our marketing team to
spin up, a messaging ROI
calculator for Twilio.
that still to this day
drives valuable leads to
Twilio because they're
able to self-serve.
on Twilio website, just
input some of their key,
uh, data points and see the
expected ROI of implanting
uh, Twilio solution.
Elle: I love it.
That's amazing.
Also, love that we have
a shout out already to
another incredible PMM.
okay, so you, we have
this incredible, uh, ROI
calculator that started.
As a tool for sales and then
evolved into a growth channel.
that's amazing.
But you also
mentioned blueprints.
Tell me a little bit more
about what that looked like.
I.
Brandon: Yeah, so.
Going back to Twilio at its
core, you know, being a suite
of communication APIs, this
again, was like 20 18, 20 19.
Uh, the concept of
API first SaaS was a
relatively new concept.
I'd say that, you know,
we've seen huge players
in, in this market across
industries, uh, like Stripe,
new Relic, et cetera.
and because of the nature
of APIs, we didn't really
have the most robust demo
library, so you couldn't
really say like, okay, you
want, like, here's what
this does, but kind of like
dream it, like feel like.
here's the audit of possible
and what it could look like.
But we very much had to,
take that and put it into
the customer's words.
And so in terms of like the
blueprint design and the
storyboarding, I. What we
effectively did was, with our
enterprise clients, we would
actually just talk about like,
what is the customer journey
that you want to achieve?
Just in your words, what
are you ultimately trying to
build and do from a customer
engagement standpoint, I.
Once the customer shared
that with us, we actually
had an illustrator on the
team that would mock up these
beautiful storyboards, to
show, okay, your customer
as an example, let's just
say I'll give Best Buy.
best Buy would essentially
say, okay, this was
during the time of Covid.
if a customer wanted to
purchase a new washer and
dryer machine, let's say
they start on the Best Buy
website, they're talking with
chat, but then they convert
to wanting to do a phone call.
Well, most of the time,
uh, and we all know
this as consumers, when
you're switching from a
chat bot to a phone call
or even to an email.
Each of those channels that
you switch to, you'll lose
the context and you have to
start completely
from the beginning.
so frustrating.
Elle: time.
Brandon: Mo,
most of the times I'm just
like, even when I'm, when like
I'm talking to like an IVR
nowadays at Twilio, you know,
you can actually learn it.
Just smash the button zero.
And just like, I
don't want to answer all
these questions, just,
just go directly to an
agent.
But yeah, so we, we would
essentially whiteboard
these things and when we
were able to whiteboard
that, and produce these
really, neat creative
storyboard illustrations.
We would then, uh, show
what's behind the scenes
in each of these things.
So it's a little bit hard
to explain without showing.
but, you know, we would
storyboard it and then
we would say, this is the
technology that Twilio has
that essentially powers this
workflow or this mockup to
be a real life scenario.
And so, uh, we would
essentially technically
map out the roadmap and
understand, based off of the
understanding of, okay, these
are the current, technologies
and systems that the client
has, their, you know, their
CRM, their ERP, whatever it
may be, what they're trying
to accomplish, and show
how Twilio kind of connects
all the dots and fits into
the picture so that when a
customer was say like, okay,
perfect, this is what I need.
They can take that blueprint.
And just start building
internally with
their developer team.
Or if they didn't have
developer resources.
We had an amazing expert
services team and program
at Twilio where we would
partner really closely and
hand off those blueprints to
the expert services team that
would actually go and build
that exact solution that we
whiteboarded for the customer.
Elle: That's amazing.
That's amazing.
And I could imagine this,
if some PMM out there wanted
to iterate on this concept.
If you have a professional
service team or if you
have partners, like channel
partners who offer services
on top of your product
offering, this would be
a great opportunity to
loop a channel partner in.
so I love that concept.
Okay, so you had, these
use case blueprints,
the storyboard,
the ROI calculator.
These are great assets and
I'm sure the sales team.
Loved them.
So when you were
launching, did you have
to do a pilot program?
Did you have to get buy-in?
I mean, who was your
executive sponsor?
Brandon: Yeah, that's,
that's a fantastic question.
So, you know, as we were
piloting this stuff, a lot
of it, as I mentioned, was
just our sales reps asking
if I can join the call to
share some of this stuff or
conduct some of these ROI
analyses or just talk about
how Twilio was differentiated.
I. and I, I just noticed,
like as I got pulled
into more and more sales
conversations, there were
a handful of asks and, you
know, we could pick up themes
that were kind of the same.
And so there was this one
bucket of I want to really
just like understand the art
of the possible with Twilio.
And so we called those like
dreaming sessions or are
the possible sessions where
we would go in, ask these
questions and do some, uh,
high level whiteboarding
together to then turn into
one of these storyboards
that I was mentioning.
Uh, the second piece was
customers wanting to have the
technical blueprint analysis.
So it was like, okay, like
I know you have this demo
at Twilio, but what does
it actually look like, if I
were to implement it today
and showing how the various.
Twilio suite of
communications fit within
their technology stack.
And so we would just,
you know, show the more
technical blueprint analysis
of how that storyboard and
how that are the possible
actually became possible.
And then lastly, the,
the second theme was
like customers wanting
to understand the value
and the ROI of Twilio.
And so we decided to very
much design our suite of
the program was called
Foundry, by the way.
I don't know if I mentioned
that it's been since re
rebranded, but it still
today is, is like a crucial
part of how how the Twilio
Enterprise team sells.
but yeah, that's how
we designed our, our
services for our kind of,
essentially for, for our
prospects and customers.
Elle: Y Yeah.
Yeah.
So you, you just
name dropped Foundry.
that was gonna be my
next question, is what
this looked like from the
customer's perspective.
so programmatically calling
it Foundry, tell me a little
bit more about how that
came to be, and then did
you have to do marketing
for Foundry or I guess what
was the, the transition
to this hyper-focused A
BM style program that's
officially foundry.
Brandon: Yeah.
Yeah.
So we called ourselves
Foundry, uh, at the time, and
Foundry was essentially like
that special ops pre-sales
team, if you will, that
would go in and support
our clients with running
these various services.
And in terms of having
to market it, um, we
found a few channels
to be very successful.
one was just, you know.
Because of the enablement
work that we did, sales knew
based off of the client that
they were trying to sell
into, uh, kind of the, the
certain hurdles that they
were trying to overcome,
when it would be a good fit
to engage the Foundry team.
So if they found that this
opportunity would be a good
fit to loop us in, they
would submit like a, a ticket
within our internal process.
that was one example.
the second was actually
marketing it on the
enterprise page.
So if you go to
twilio.com/enterprise, I still
think this page is live today.
I'll have to, I'll have to
double check.
but it would talk about
Foundry and again, it's
been rebranded and I
think it's executive
engagement programs now.
but you could essentially, you
know, learn more about how you
get this white glove service
to really like hop into an
executive briefing center with
the totally executive team.
do these are the possible
sessions, um, and really
understand how you can get
the most value out of Twilio.
And so we, definitely had
a landing page with some
language around that.
and I'd say one of, one of
the best forms of marketing
was, oftentimes when that
prospect converted to a closed
customer, They would at times
be able, like, talk about
their foundry experience,
give us social proof that
we would then, uh, leverage
internally, but also that our
sales reps can also pull in
their slide decks to pitch,
the various foundry offerings
and the impact that we had.
Elle: I love it.
That's fantastic.
so you've mentioned so
much goodness here, Curious
if you have any documents
or examples that you'd
be willing to share.
Maybe a sample bill of
materials to get started,
or an example of what
content might look like for
customers to engage, with
a program like Foundry.
or I guess now it's the
executive, I've already
forgot what you mentioned.
Brandon: Ex executive
Elle: Yeah.
Executive engagement program.
Yes.
do you have any examples?
And if you do, we can,
drop 'em in the show notes.
Brandon: Yeah, I'll, I'll
have to do some digging to
see, what I have a lot of it.
you know, we're very, as I
mentioned, hyper-personalized,
hyper customized.
Like ROI analyses and
workflows and blueprints
for the customers that we
oftentimes delivered in like
a 60 page slide deck that,
the customers took and,
you know, started building
against and executing upon.
Um, and we'd have various
touch points throughout that
engagement, uh, in terms of
check-ins to see how that was
going to ensure that, they
would be success in doing it.
So, a lot of it did have
some like, customer sensitive
information, but I'll have
to take a look at the archive
Elle: Yeah, Okay.
so last question, uh, for
you on this topic, Brandon.
Any last piece of advice
you have for a product
marketer who's trying to
create a highly targeted
pre-sales marketing campaign
to improve win rates?
Brandon: Yeah, so I'd say,
one, it starts with like
being customer obsessed
and understanding the
customer more than anyone
within the organization.
That's probably
like the number one.
If I had to leave you like
number one advice, it would
be that I. the second piece
is again, we have this value
at Twilio called Draw the Al.
And a handful of other
startups I think, have taken
this to incorporate within
their company values as well.
But what that essentially
meant was there isn't like,
yes, there are playbooks
and there are frameworks
to build certain things
and you know, playbooks
are playbooks for a reason.
There is definite success.
well, I wouldn't say
definite, but there's,
uh, success stories behind
those playbooks, which is
why they are playbooks.
But ultimately the story
of Foundry and what we
created, was just a, an idea.
now companies have
similar things.
I know Stripe has an
executive engagement programs
that could be, you know,
sim there, there's some
aspects of that that are
similar but also different
to what Twilio is doing.
So I would just say like,
be very open and think
about, you know, if you
focus on the customer
and what your customer is
trying to achieve and the
themes that you're finding.
very much work to build a
solution, uh, and build a
program that is going to
best support your goals.
And those could be, you
know, existing things that
companies have that you
can find inspiration from.
But ultimately I think you're
gonna find the most success,
being able to create something
that's hyper personalized
and design for what you're
trying to accomplish and who
you're trying to sell to.
Elle: I love it.
Yes, absolutely.
The customer obsession is so
real for product marketers.
I think it there you have to
have a natural empathy to be.
A product marketer.
and that goes so hand in hand
with the customer obsession.
I could not agree more.
alright, so now it's time
for our next segment.
So this is our message
critique segment.
This is where we as product
marketing experts, analyze
real world messaging.
But here's the fun part,
you, Brandon, my guest,
get to choose the company.
and before we get started,
I wanna establish some
ground rules here.
So once you pick the company,
we're gonna walk through three
things, uh, related to this
message critique, exercise.
So first I wanna hear one
thing that you love about
the messaging, what's
working, what made the
product stand out to you?
And then second, share one
thing that you wish the
PMM had done differently.
Something that could have
made the message more clear
or stronger or more impactful.
and then third, where
could this go next?
How could you iterate
on the messaging?
Um, what creative campaigns
could the PMM think about?
maybe how could they test it
or take it to the next level?
So this is all about learning
and refining our craft.
No negativity.
Just a thoughtful,
constructive critique.
Sound good?
Brandon: All right.
Let's do it.
Elle: Okay, let's get into it.
So, tell me about a
product or company that
has caught your attention.
Good or bad,
somewhere in between.
Brandon: Yeah.
So there's this company
called Default, default.com,
and I don't know if
you wanna pull it up
on, on your
Elle: Yeah, I'm gonna
pull it up right now.
default.com.
Brandon: Yeah.
So this is a product that,
during my time at Runway,
uh, we use heavily, to really
support with automating our
inbound funnel and increasing
the conversion rates from.
at the point in time when
someone books a demo all
the way to them being a
clo, a closed one customer.
And so why I'm choosing
default is because, uh,
I loved using m as as a
customer, but also, uh,
they just recently went
through a big rebrand.
Um, and so this is very
much like the new messaging.
And,
Elle: yeah.
We'll back up for a minute.
Tell me what do they do?
Brandon: Yeah.
So default is, essentially
a, a go-to market solution.
Uh, there's a lot of these
go-to-market software,
but they focus very
much on making inbound
scheduling much easier.
So if you have a clearly
defined ICP customer, you
can take that criteria.
Let's say a company,
you're like, you're
targeting companies with
minimum 50 employees,
upwards of a thousand.
Specifically financial
services industry, you can
use that criteria to say if
you click book a demo and
you input that information,
if you meet that criteria,
you can book a meeting on
a sales calendar like right
then and there versus I.
Having to request that demo
wait for sales to follow up.
Sales might take
anywhere from 24 to
40 hours to follow up.
And so you're very
much increasing the
conversion rate of like,
Hey, you're qualified.
I want to show you a
sales calendar now.
So you can book that
demo, and really start
that sales conversation.
And similarly, like if they
aren't qualified, you can
design with default these
other workflows that would
push you into like a really
great self-serve flow, uh,
or push you just different
things, um, that just make.
Inbound so much easier.
I call this like the leaky
bucket problem, right?
This is a well known like
phrase, which is like, you
can have the best marketing
you can do, have the best
paid acquisition in the world.
But if you aren't able
to fix like the actual
inbound workflow piece,
you're, you're losing leads
at every single stage.
And so default very much,
as I mentioned, you were
using 'EM runway very much
helped automate that entire
process and have, uh, and
really bring us confidence in
increasing those conversion
rates from a sign up to a
qualified lead to a sales
qualified lead, et cetera.
Elle: I love that.
You know, it also sounds
like it really captures the
eagerness of the prospect too,
right?
Rather than making them wait,
like, ah, their energy kind
of goes down after that point.
So, I love it.
Okay, so let's, what do you,
let's, let's walk through the
Brandon: Yeah,
let's take a look.
Let's take a look.
So, when you go to the default
homepage, you see here like
their, their hero copy.
So, uh, revamp inbound with
easier routing, actual intent
and, and faster scheduling.
and then the, the subheader
unlock efficient growth
with one platform that
automated scheduling,
routing, enrichment,
and intent workflows.
So I guess, you know, looking
at this, I like that the
headline is action oriented.
I think it's great.
I think it highlights key
things that default does,
which as I mentioned,
automated scheduling, routing,
enrichment, and I think that
the subheader, this concept
of all in one solution,
I know that's becoming, I
dunno, a little bit cliche
almo like nowadays or I'd
say like overused, where like
everyone's talking about like.
Hey, you can use, I mean,
even at Twilio, it was like
one platform for all your
customer engagement.
but I do think within the
space that they're in,
like there's this concept
of go to market bloat.
Like prior to default
companies would have,
like, if you weren't using
default, you're using
like 10 different various
products, and solutions for
like your inbound tech stack.
And so I think there,
that's an important
note that they hit on in
terms of like feedback.
I think that there's a
little bit of repetitiveness
between like the headline,
the revamp statement, and
the subheader.
There's some repetition in
terms of features, right?
I think there're
mentioning routing.
They're mentioning intent.
Yep.
They're mentioning scheduling.
And so from a product
marketing standpoint, I think.
my, my opinion of like,
when you're trying to create
good positioning and more
importantly like really good
hero copy, it's like how
do you explain what you do
in as few words as possible
without losing
clarity?
you're familiar with ramp.
Ramp has has, you know,
grown incredibly fast
over the last few years.
But I was recently on Ram's
website, and I don't know
if this is new messaging
or not, but if we pull up
their website, and just
compare and contrast the
two different companies.
Okay, time is Money Save both.
I think this is
just genius, right?
It's very few words, very
short, very to the point.
And you can get a sense
of the overall value
proposition of ramp.
and so once they have that
like very crisp header,
uh, they then go to
explain what, uh, within
the subheader, what they
actually do.
Right?
So easy to use
corporate cards, bill
payments, accounting,
and a whole lot more.
Again, all in one place.
You, you see the similar
messaging and so.
For default.
I think there's an
opportunity to do that.
a great test when trying
to come up with like hero
copy or any messaging.
I call this like
the parent test.
if you showed this
messaging to your parents,
would they understand
what the company does?
If the answer is no,
that means that there's
an opportunity for that
messaging to be simplified.
Now, my parents aren't in
tech and so, you know, take
that with a grain of salt.
But you can use that as
a, as a, as a guide more
or less to really make
it easy to understand.
I always like to think
like, don't try and
complicate things.
You know, the ramp example
time is money, save both.
It's just very simple,
very approachable language.
Elle: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Uh, another test that
I've heard, I think it's
called The barbecue test,
where, so where if you, if
you go to a barbecue, you
take this messaging, and you.
if someone asks you,
oh, what does revamp do?
Well, revamp.
sorry.
What does default do You say,
well, default lets you revamp
inbound with easier routing.
Actual intent.
It festers.
'cause you're like, you
wouldn't talk like that
as a barbe at a barbecue.
You know?
Brandon: exactly.
Elle: So, I'm on
board with that.
Like, very simple
to the point.
We don't have to use
verbose language just
to get our point across.
Brandon: All right, so
key takeaway listeners.
Organize a barbecue with
your parents if you're trying
to refine your messaging.
Elle: Exactly.
Brandon: I'll also say, um,
I was just realizing, I, I
noticed scrolling, scrolling
down on, on the new homepage.
I'm actually featured there.
caveat, I, I, by no
means am an investor in
this company, so I'm not
talking to my own book.
Uh, I'm
just, I'm just, a, I'm
just a happy customer.
Um, so yeah, that was
that was funny.
See.
And, and even on this, I
love, as you're scrolling
through the homepage, this
is actually beautiful.
again, this, this was just
released I think a week or
two ago, and I know, Nico,
the founder and, and the
default team really well.
But, um, what I love here
is each of these core
product capabilities.
They're making it even
stronger by showing
the social proof and
showing a customer story
that's very much associated
with that product capability.
So,
Elle: yes, I also really
like that they right next to
the product capability, they
show you an illustration to
help you firmly understand.
So kudos to that team.
You guys are
doing a great job.
maybe tweak your header.
Okay.
Amazing.
Brandon, before we go, uh, I
wanna have a gratitude moment
and say thank you so much
for your willingness to share
your knowledge and expertise
with me, um, in the product
marketing community today.
Thank you so much.
and.
Brandon: at you.
I think this is, uh, an
incredibly fun project that
you're work working on.
Elle: Yay.
Thank you.
I know for me personally,
expert marketers like yourself
have firmly shaped my PMM
craft, and I'm curious for
you who are maybe one or two
pmms who have really impacted
your career and, you know,
this is a great opportunity
to give some public kudos.
Brandon: Yeah, so the two
pmms that come to mind, uh,
were on my team at Shopify.
Danny Gibson and Theo
Earl, two of probably the
best product marketers
I've ever had the, the
opportunity of working with.
So they're fantastic and I'm
calling 'em out 'cause they
should totally get on this
pod and share their insights.
Elle: Amazing.
Danny and Theo, I'm coming
for you sliding into your dms.
Brandon: I can definitely
help with that.
I can, make a warm intro.
Elle: Thanks Brandon.
Um, okay.
And my last question for
you, where else can we
access your expertise?
Is it just best to
find you on LinkedIn?
Brandon: Yeah, li
LinkedIn is probably the
best place to find me.
Um, send me a
connection request.
if you do, you'll also see
some of my, I try not to be
too cringe, but, you know,
LinkedIn content, you kind of
have to be cringe, so Yeah,
de definitely, that's
Elle: all just
embracing it.
Brandon: Me.
Elle: Great.
I love it.
Again, thank you so much
Brandon, and Thank you PMM
listeners for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves you
with inspiration to take the
next step in your own journey.
Brandon: Thank you so much.