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Elle: So product marketers

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look at metrics from

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all over the business.

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One metric that's, uh,

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commonly tracked is win-loss.

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There are many factors that

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influence win-loss from sales

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effectiveness to positioning.

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Today we're gonna talk

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about how one product

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marketer studied win-loss

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deals and turned it into

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highly targeted pre-sales

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marketing program for Twilio.

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With that, it is my

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pleasure to have Brandon

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Penn on the show.

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So let me tell you.

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Why I've always been

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blown away by Brandon.

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He's a B2B, marketing and

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go-to market leader who

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has helped scale some of

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the biggest names in tech.

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So he built enterprise go-to

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market programs at Twilio.

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during the hyper growth

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period, he ran marketing at

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Shopify Logistics, which was

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later acquired by Flexport.

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And most recently he was

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head of Marketing at Runway.

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That's a finance startup,

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rethinking business planning.

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Brandon's got a deep

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understanding of what it

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takes to drive growth, tell

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compelling stories, and build

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brands that really stand out.

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So Brandon, thank

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you for being here.

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It's amazing to have

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you on the show.

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Brandon: Awesome.

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so excited to be here.

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And, you know, as I was

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prepping actually for,

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for today's podcast, I was

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thinking about like the

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last time I did a podcast.

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And it's been a while.

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Uh, I don't do too many of

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them, but when you reached

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out and you told me about

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what you're building,

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I could not say no.

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So very excited to be here.

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Elle: Awesome.

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Thank you so much.

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I appreciate that.

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well, let's dive right in.

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I.

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wanna hear about two

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different things.

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Brandon, first for our

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listeners, what is Twilio?

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And then tell me more

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about what was going on

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at Twilio when you created

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this highly targeted A BM

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program with the sales team?

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Brandon: Yeah, sure.

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So to set the stage for

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those unfamiliar with Twilio

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while its messaging has

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evolved over the years since

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you and I have been there.

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fundamentally it's a suite

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of communication APIs, and

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so if you want to add SMS

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email, voice, et cetera

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to your product, you can

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essentially use Twilio suite

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of APIs, to build those

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into your product suite.

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and so I joined Twilio at

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a very interesting, time.

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This was 2017, a point where

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Twilio had already been

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public for about a year.

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Uh, but there was this very

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big initiative internally

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to focus on moving up

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market and successfully,

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cracked the enterprise.

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And so my role at Twilio

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and I joined in 2017 was on

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the solution marketing team,

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where I focused specifically

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on, competitive intelligence

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and win-loss analysis.

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And so what this meant was.

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My day-to-day involves

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analyzing data within

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our CRM interviewing

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customers who chose Twilio.

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and at the same time, more

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importantly, those who also

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didn't move forward with, with

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Twilio to really understand

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the reasons why we were

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winning and losing deals.

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And the biggest insight

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from my time doing

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this analysis was.

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even though the data showed,

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uh, we were losing to some

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competitors that came up

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in various verticals of

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the business, the biggest

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reason actually that Twilio

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was losing certain deals.

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Was, this was ultimately

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the status quo.

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That was the

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number one reason.

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It was companies deciding

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not to move forward

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with Twilio because they

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couldn't understand really

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the, the full impact

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of the ROI on Twilio.

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And at the same time, again,

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going back to the suite of

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API communications, where

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to start building and how

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to get the most value out

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of the different use cases.

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And so with this insight,

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uh, I partnered very closely

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with yourself and the rest of

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the product marketing team.

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To create battle cards.

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Objection handling materials.

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Really work on refining

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our positioning to enable

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our sales teams on how to

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compete more effectively.

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and that also led to

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myself hopping into deals,

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to support the reps and

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talking to prospects on,

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here are the things that

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you can do with Twilio.

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we, as you're very familiar

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with, broke it up into like

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a crawl, rock run format

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that was hyper tailored to

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the size of the company, the

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industry that they were in.

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But also what they were

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ultimately trying to

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achieve from a digital

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transformation standpoint.

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and so in terms of, you

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know, the impact that that

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had, we would go in, we

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would share these awesome

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storyboards, these technical

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blueprints, these ROI

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analyses, and we really

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just started to see our, our

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sales cycle, just take off.

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We saw a really cool

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percentage increase in

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terms of deal expansion.

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And because these prospects

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understood, okay, here's how

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I can get started tomorrow.

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and the value of adopting

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each use case as they scaled.

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Uh, we also saw a deal

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acceleration, which

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was really, really

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amazing to see as well.

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Especially enterprise cycles,

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you know, can be anywhere from

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six months, uh, or longer.

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And so being able to speed

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up the velocity of those

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cycles was an amazing win.

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Elle: Wow.

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Okay, so I, there's a lot

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that you gave here and I just

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wanna unpack a little bit.

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So one thing you mentioned

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is the, one reason why Twilio

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was losing deals and that's

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to do nothing, and that's

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so often overlooked when

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doing win-loss analysis.

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I think product marketers can

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be so focused on competitors,

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competitors, competitors.

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There is another option, which

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is to not do anything at all.

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And sometimes you lose to

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doing nothing instead of

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losing to a competitor.

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And that's still something

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that the sales team needs

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to be equipped to handle.

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and it sounds like not

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only did this program

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work in competitive

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situations, but also in

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non-competitive situation

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when the alternative to.

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Using your product is to

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do, use nothing at all.

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so I just wanted to call

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that out that this program

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that you've created, is

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applicable to both situations.

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the other thing that's I, uh,

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wanted to call out is that

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in order to get to the point

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where you realized, hey, we

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should put together this.

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Hyper targeted a BM program

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where we're building out these

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use cases and blueprints.

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you had to study deals and

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you had to go really deep into

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what customers needed to see

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before they engaged in a deal.

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Okay, let's back

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up for a minute.

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Let's say that I wanted to try

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to replicate, or, iterate on

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a similar, initiative in my

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role in my organization like,

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let's say I wanted to increase

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win rates for my product.

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What I wanna do with you,

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Brandon, is outline the steps

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that A PMM would need to take.

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So it sounds like step

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one would be to study

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win-loss data, right?

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Understand why we

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are losing deals.

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And it sounds like for in the

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situation, that you were in,

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or I guess that Twilio was

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in, was that they discovered

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that, Twilio was losing deals

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because of perceived value.

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So let's say that we've

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accomplished that.

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I've studied my win-loss data.

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I've discovered that

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my customers have a,

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misperception of value

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for what my product

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does or, or can do.

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I guess what's the next step?

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Where do I go from here?

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Brandon: Yeah.

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Yeah, that's, that's

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a really great point.

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And I'd say even to, to

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simplify it further, at

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Twilio we have this value of

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wearing the customer's shoes.

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And great marketing isn't

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about what we want to say.

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It's about what our

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customers need to hear.

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And I find that the best

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brands and the best product

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marketers, I'd argue that

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actually product marketers

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more than any function

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in the org, uh, should be

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the most customer obsessed

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because that's ultimately how

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you can create real value.

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And if you don't start

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with a customer, I think

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just first principles,

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nothing else matters.

293
00:08:22,599 --> 00:08:24,147
And so, I, I guess the

294
00:08:24,147 --> 00:08:24,747
message that I'm trying to

295
00:08:24,747 --> 00:08:26,078
get across here is, product

296
00:08:26,078 --> 00:08:26,738
marketers should have the

297
00:08:26,738 --> 00:08:27,998
deepest understanding, and

298
00:08:28,208 --> 00:08:29,468
that's really what I focused

299
00:08:29,468 --> 00:08:30,548
on, is like, how can I get

300
00:08:30,548 --> 00:08:31,418
the deepest understanding?

301
00:08:31,418 --> 00:08:33,158
How can I not just take

302
00:08:33,158 --> 00:08:34,628
this, like the data

303
00:08:34,628 --> 00:08:35,528
that our sales reps were

304
00:08:35,528 --> 00:08:36,848
inputting into our CRM and

305
00:08:36,848 --> 00:08:37,868
take that at face value.

306
00:08:38,018 --> 00:08:39,248
How can I code deeper

307
00:08:39,248 --> 00:08:40,568
and actually speak to the

308
00:08:40,568 --> 00:08:41,978
customers to understand,

309
00:08:42,248 --> 00:08:43,508
uh, firsthand why we're

310
00:08:43,508 --> 00:08:44,378
winning and losing?

311
00:08:44,378 --> 00:08:45,976
And so, I bring this up

312
00:08:45,976 --> 00:08:47,271
because I'm not gonna

313
00:08:47,271 --> 00:08:48,111
recommend that, like

314
00:08:48,111 --> 00:08:49,641
there's a playbook or,

315
00:08:49,701 --> 00:08:51,321
or a step, uh, that like

316
00:08:51,321 --> 00:08:52,491
every team should take when

317
00:08:52,491 --> 00:08:53,661
trying to replicate this.

318
00:08:53,871 --> 00:08:55,251
I ultimately think it depends

319
00:08:55,251 --> 00:08:56,751
on where your business

320
00:08:56,751 --> 00:08:58,004
is currently at, what

321
00:08:58,004 --> 00:08:59,234
that data is telling you.

322
00:08:59,534 --> 00:09:00,764
And so I think starting with a

323
00:09:00,764 --> 00:09:02,024
customer really helps do that.

324
00:09:02,024 --> 00:09:03,584
And I can't imagine, just like

325
00:09:03,584 --> 00:09:05,774
I. How easy it is nowadays.

326
00:09:05,774 --> 00:09:07,304
I mean, I spent like hours

327
00:09:07,304 --> 00:09:08,654
and days analyzing a lot

328
00:09:08,654 --> 00:09:09,614
of this data, but now with

329
00:09:09,614 --> 00:09:10,634
a lot of these AI tools,

330
00:09:10,634 --> 00:09:11,774
it just makes it so much

331
00:09:11,804 --> 00:09:13,304
easier to, to gather

332
00:09:13,304 --> 00:09:14,264
that data, which is,

333
00:09:14,504 --> 00:09:15,614
which is crazy.

334
00:09:15,677 --> 00:09:16,591
uh, it's really crazy.

335
00:09:16,591 --> 00:09:17,731
It's been, it's been fun using

336
00:09:17,731 --> 00:09:19,321
tools like I. Uh, of course

337
00:09:19,321 --> 00:09:21,331
Jet, GBT, but like you.com

338
00:09:21,331 --> 00:09:23,491
and grok now, uh, to do like

339
00:09:23,491 --> 00:09:25,081
deep research on the market,

340
00:09:25,081 --> 00:09:26,551
the, the competitive landscape

341
00:09:26,551 --> 00:09:27,571
and what that looks like,

342
00:09:27,807 --> 00:09:29,140
and how you can use a lot of

343
00:09:29,140 --> 00:09:31,270
that to inform your decisions

344
00:09:31,270 --> 00:09:32,440
and what you're trying

345
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:33,803
to do, internally from a

346
00:09:33,803 --> 00:09:35,033
product marketing standpoint.

347
00:09:35,273 --> 00:09:36,953
So your question about,

348
00:09:37,099 --> 00:09:38,567
this concept of value,

349
00:09:38,897 --> 00:09:40,246
you know, when folks hear

350
00:09:40,246 --> 00:09:41,896
the word value, I think.

351
00:09:42,181 --> 00:09:43,231
Oftentimes they

352
00:09:43,231 --> 00:09:44,611
immediately jump to price.

353
00:09:44,671 --> 00:09:45,451
Oh, it's because

354
00:09:45,451 --> 00:09:46,411
we're priced too high.

355
00:09:46,801 --> 00:09:47,821
But value is so

356
00:09:47,821 --> 00:09:48,511
much more than that.

357
00:09:48,511 --> 00:09:50,431
Value in addition to the

358
00:09:50,431 --> 00:09:52,916
cost of something is how

359
00:09:52,916 --> 00:09:53,876
are you going to get the

360
00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:55,166
most out of the solution?

361
00:09:55,166 --> 00:09:56,156
How easy is it?

362
00:09:56,261 --> 00:09:58,241
It to build or implement

363
00:09:58,241 --> 00:10:00,194
this, product into your

364
00:10:00,194 --> 00:10:01,454
day-to-day operations.

365
00:10:01,604 --> 00:10:02,924
Is it saving you time?

366
00:10:02,924 --> 00:10:03,524
Are you seeing an

367
00:10:03,524 --> 00:10:04,724
increase in efficiency?

368
00:10:04,904 --> 00:10:05,894
What are those things?

369
00:10:05,894 --> 00:10:06,914
And ultimately, at

370
00:10:06,914 --> 00:10:08,655
Twilio, what we focused

371
00:10:08,655 --> 00:10:09,675
on is really just helping

372
00:10:09,675 --> 00:10:10,785
customers understand that.

373
00:10:10,785 --> 00:10:11,865
So we would spend time

374
00:10:12,105 --> 00:10:13,305
gathering inputs to say.

375
00:10:13,845 --> 00:10:14,295
Okay.

376
00:10:14,295 --> 00:10:15,555
You know, how many, just

377
00:10:15,555 --> 00:10:17,205
as a, as a, an example,

378
00:10:17,235 --> 00:10:18,405
how many messages are

379
00:10:18,405 --> 00:10:19,275
you trying to send?

380
00:10:19,275 --> 00:10:20,745
What is your current cost

381
00:10:20,745 --> 00:10:22,215
on if you had an existing

382
00:10:22,215 --> 00:10:23,475
solution, what was that?

383
00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:25,486
how many hours would you say

384
00:10:25,486 --> 00:10:27,046
you spend time doing this?

385
00:10:27,406 --> 00:10:29,086
And based off of a lot of

386
00:10:29,086 --> 00:10:30,436
the benchmarks and data that

387
00:10:30,436 --> 00:10:31,696
we had internally from our

388
00:10:31,696 --> 00:10:33,886
customers, which was a, a huge

389
00:10:33,886 --> 00:10:35,356
benefit at Twilio, we were

390
00:10:35,356 --> 00:10:36,976
able to actually build these

391
00:10:36,976 --> 00:10:39,406
really cool ROI calculators

392
00:10:39,406 --> 00:10:40,996
for the various use cases

393
00:10:41,146 --> 00:10:42,196
that customers can just

394
00:10:42,196 --> 00:10:43,786
input their data and see.

395
00:10:44,039 --> 00:10:45,569
for example, when the ROI

396
00:10:45,569 --> 00:10:46,619
would be, what would be,

397
00:10:46,859 --> 00:10:48,299
uh, the ROI on year one,

398
00:10:48,299 --> 00:10:49,469
year two, year three, where

399
00:10:49,469 --> 00:10:51,042
ultimately, it would pay

400
00:10:51,042 --> 00:10:52,932
for like purchasing, Twilio

401
00:10:53,112 --> 00:10:54,342
would pay for itself.

402
00:10:54,639 --> 00:10:55,890
you know, twofold, threefold,

403
00:10:55,890 --> 00:10:57,180
just because of the impact

404
00:10:57,180 --> 00:10:58,110
they were able to see within

405
00:10:58,110 --> 00:10:58,920
their business as a whole.

406
00:10:59,414 --> 00:10:59,928
Elle: Got it.

407
00:10:59,928 --> 00:11:00,138
Okay.

408
00:11:00,138 --> 00:11:01,188
So what I love about

409
00:11:01,188 --> 00:11:02,298
this is that you.

410
00:11:02,868 --> 00:11:04,008
Took the data that you were

411
00:11:04,008 --> 00:11:06,228
able to discover internally

412
00:11:06,528 --> 00:11:09,198
and not only use it as

413
00:11:09,198 --> 00:11:11,476
insights for bettering

414
00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:13,421
your sales team, improving

415
00:11:13,421 --> 00:11:14,831
efficiency or effectiveness,

416
00:11:14,831 --> 00:11:16,060
I should say, of the

417
00:11:16,176 --> 00:11:19,219
enablement for sales, but

418
00:11:19,219 --> 00:11:21,829
also making it available to

419
00:11:21,829 --> 00:11:23,749
customers to get value from.

420
00:11:24,814 --> 00:11:26,164
That's really interesting.

421
00:11:26,410 --> 00:11:27,130
and I know this isn't

422
00:11:27,130 --> 00:11:28,270
something we talked about,

423
00:11:28,324 --> 00:11:29,312
when we were preparing for

424
00:11:29,312 --> 00:11:31,712
this conversation, but can

425
00:11:31,712 --> 00:11:33,092
you tell me a little bit more

426
00:11:33,092 --> 00:11:35,672
about how would one create

427
00:11:35,822 --> 00:11:38,462
a value or ROI calculator?

428
00:11:38,623 --> 00:11:39,613
obviously it starts with some

429
00:11:39,613 --> 00:11:42,073
kind of benchmark data that

430
00:11:42,073 --> 00:11:43,213
you have to get somewhere.

431
00:11:43,423 --> 00:11:44,233
Best place to get that

432
00:11:44,233 --> 00:11:45,433
is internally, of course.

433
00:11:46,187 --> 00:11:47,567
any other tips about that?

434
00:11:47,859 --> 00:11:48,381
Brandon: Yeah.

435
00:11:48,621 --> 00:11:50,153
So, when we were building

436
00:11:50,153 --> 00:11:51,203
these ROI calculators,

437
00:11:51,203 --> 00:11:52,335
we were using, Google

438
00:11:52,335 --> 00:11:53,895
Sheets or Microsoft Excel.

439
00:11:54,135 --> 00:11:55,275
Actually, Microsoft Excel was

440
00:11:55,275 --> 00:11:56,235
the preferred just because

441
00:11:56,235 --> 00:11:57,315
of the, the capabilities

442
00:11:57,315 --> 00:11:58,305
of the macros and what

443
00:11:58,305 --> 00:11:58,935
you're able to build with.

444
00:11:59,175 --> 00:12:00,615
Within the certain files.

445
00:12:00,945 --> 00:12:02,445
And so to your point, yes,

446
00:12:02,445 --> 00:12:03,465
a lot of it started with

447
00:12:03,465 --> 00:12:05,235
gathering kind of benchmarks.

448
00:12:05,235 --> 00:12:06,945
And so what we looked at

449
00:12:06,945 --> 00:12:08,651
at Twilio was, an example,

450
00:12:08,651 --> 00:12:09,731
actually, a good place to

451
00:12:09,731 --> 00:12:11,835
start is, every company

452
00:12:11,835 --> 00:12:13,155
nowadays, I feel like social

453
00:12:13,155 --> 00:12:14,295
proof is just becoming,

454
00:12:14,325 --> 00:12:15,585
uh, incredibly important.

455
00:12:15,891 --> 00:12:17,121
you know, has customer

456
00:12:17,121 --> 00:12:18,411
stories, has case studies,

457
00:12:18,471 --> 00:12:19,941
and within those case studies

458
00:12:19,941 --> 00:12:21,231
and within these interviews,

459
00:12:21,381 --> 00:12:23,151
you're oftentimes asking

460
00:12:23,151 --> 00:12:24,591
like, what was the impact

461
00:12:24,651 --> 00:12:26,121
of purchasing this solution

462
00:12:26,121 --> 00:12:27,111
or, or implementing it.

463
00:12:27,476 --> 00:12:28,826
And so those impacts could

464
00:12:28,826 --> 00:12:30,446
be anything from cost

465
00:12:30,446 --> 00:12:32,096
savings, time savings.

466
00:12:32,261 --> 00:12:33,697
you can essentially take

467
00:12:33,727 --> 00:12:35,571
those inputs, aggregate

468
00:12:35,571 --> 00:12:37,221
them across various

469
00:12:37,401 --> 00:12:39,441
industries or company size.

470
00:12:39,681 --> 00:12:40,941
And what you'll get is

471
00:12:40,941 --> 00:12:42,351
like loose benchmarks on,

472
00:12:42,351 --> 00:12:44,241
hey, these are the average,

473
00:12:44,394 --> 00:12:45,321
as to what customer's

474
00:12:45,321 --> 00:12:47,091
experience on top of using

475
00:12:47,091 --> 00:12:48,351
your product or solution.

476
00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:49,762
And so that's where we

477
00:12:49,762 --> 00:12:51,532
started as like one input.

478
00:12:51,712 --> 00:12:52,462
Uh, obviously there's,

479
00:12:52,612 --> 00:12:53,512
there's other inputs,

480
00:12:53,512 --> 00:12:54,352
but we essentially

481
00:12:54,352 --> 00:12:55,462
built these calculators

482
00:12:55,462 --> 00:12:56,812
using those benchmarks.

483
00:12:56,812 --> 00:12:58,683
And so, all the customer or

484
00:12:58,683 --> 00:13:00,033
prospect had to do is saying,

485
00:13:00,063 --> 00:13:01,953
okay, if you wanna understand

486
00:13:02,103 --> 00:13:04,053
the ROI or the perceived

487
00:13:04,053 --> 00:13:06,153
impact of implementing, let's

488
00:13:06,153 --> 00:13:08,364
say, personalized emails

489
00:13:08,364 --> 00:13:10,134
using Twilio, SendGrid, uh,

490
00:13:10,134 --> 00:13:11,574
you would essentially input

491
00:13:11,604 --> 00:13:12,966
those, Things that we need

492
00:13:12,966 --> 00:13:14,166
in the calculator and it

493
00:13:14,166 --> 00:13:15,096
would spit out like, okay,

494
00:13:15,096 --> 00:13:16,866
here's the expected ROI

495
00:13:16,866 --> 00:13:17,856
and what you should see.

496
00:13:18,144 --> 00:13:18,744
you know, most of the

497
00:13:18,744 --> 00:13:19,824
time that's really

498
00:13:19,824 --> 00:13:20,634
what customers wanted.

499
00:13:20,634 --> 00:13:22,194
Now we weren't promising.

500
00:13:22,404 --> 00:13:22,974
That was like, okay,

501
00:13:22,974 --> 00:13:24,084
you're gonna see this.

502
00:13:24,126 --> 00:13:25,467
but we were saying like, Hey,

503
00:13:25,467 --> 00:13:27,567
this is very much built on top

504
00:13:27,567 --> 00:13:29,307
of our customer benchmarks.

505
00:13:29,337 --> 00:13:31,176
And so, based off of companies

506
00:13:31,176 --> 00:13:32,376
that are similar to you.

507
00:13:32,736 --> 00:13:34,266
Your size, your industry,

508
00:13:34,266 --> 00:13:35,466
this is what they saw.

509
00:13:35,696 --> 00:13:37,220
and we have high conviction

510
00:13:37,370 --> 00:13:38,690
that what we're looking at and

511
00:13:38,690 --> 00:13:40,220
evaluating today will drive

512
00:13:40,220 --> 00:13:41,240
the same results for you.

513
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:43,170
Elle: Yeah, absolutely.

514
00:13:43,170 --> 00:13:44,970
So with the ROI calculator,

515
00:13:45,041 --> 00:13:46,091
was it more of a sales

516
00:13:46,091 --> 00:13:47,831
enablement tool and the

517
00:13:47,891 --> 00:13:50,041
seller would maybe walk

518
00:13:50,046 --> 00:13:51,061
through it with a customer

519
00:13:51,061 --> 00:13:52,621
live, or was it like a

520
00:13:52,621 --> 00:13:55,293
polished, webpage that a

521
00:13:55,293 --> 00:13:57,093
customer kind of self-serve?

522
00:13:57,573 --> 00:13:59,073
And put things on their own.

523
00:13:59,530 --> 00:14:00,790
Brandon: Yeah, great question.

524
00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:03,936
So it was primarily a tool

525
00:14:03,936 --> 00:14:06,036
that we focused a lot on

526
00:14:06,036 --> 00:14:07,446
enabling our global sales

527
00:14:07,446 --> 00:14:09,156
team on how to best use.

528
00:14:09,426 --> 00:14:10,956
Um, so we had a great

529
00:14:10,986 --> 00:14:11,886
sales and inland team

530
00:14:11,886 --> 00:14:12,756
that we partnered with.

531
00:14:13,026 --> 00:14:14,556
To essentially host these ROI

532
00:14:14,556 --> 00:14:16,906
calculators in our CMS, and

533
00:14:16,906 --> 00:14:18,526
then we would train our reps

534
00:14:18,526 --> 00:14:20,596
on being able to effectively.

535
00:14:21,046 --> 00:14:22,186
Open up the calculator,

536
00:14:22,246 --> 00:14:23,236
make a copy, and use

537
00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:24,556
it for their deals.

538
00:14:24,556 --> 00:14:26,356
And if for whatever reason

539
00:14:26,356 --> 00:14:27,526
it was a more comprehensive

540
00:14:27,526 --> 00:14:28,756
analysis that was needed,

541
00:14:28,966 --> 00:14:29,686
they would actually just

542
00:14:29,686 --> 00:14:31,186
ping, uh, myself and the

543
00:14:31,186 --> 00:14:32,146
team directly and we would

544
00:14:32,146 --> 00:14:33,286
hop in, as I mentioned,

545
00:14:33,496 --> 00:14:35,416
to support our sales reps

546
00:14:35,416 --> 00:14:36,361
and our strategic AEs.

547
00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:38,066
With being able to run these

548
00:14:38,066 --> 00:14:40,076
ROI and economic analyses for

549
00:14:40,076 --> 00:14:41,306
our prospects and clients.

550
00:14:41,554 --> 00:14:42,792
and then to your point, it

551
00:14:42,792 --> 00:14:44,952
actually later then turned

552
00:14:44,952 --> 00:14:47,352
into a growth channel.

553
00:14:47,382 --> 00:14:48,852
And so, uh, shout out

554
00:14:48,852 --> 00:14:50,622
to, uh, Kavia Gupta on my

555
00:14:50,622 --> 00:14:52,182
team at the time who took

556
00:14:52,182 --> 00:14:53,412
this and actually worked

557
00:14:53,412 --> 00:14:54,972
really closely, uh, with

558
00:14:54,972 --> 00:14:56,532
our marketing team to

559
00:14:56,532 --> 00:14:58,465
spin up, a messaging ROI

560
00:14:58,465 --> 00:14:59,875
calculator for Twilio.

561
00:15:00,145 --> 00:15:01,257
that still to this day

562
00:15:01,257 --> 00:15:02,727
drives valuable leads to

563
00:15:02,727 --> 00:15:03,447
Twilio because they're

564
00:15:03,447 --> 00:15:04,497
able to self-serve.

565
00:15:04,799 --> 00:15:06,360
on Twilio website, just

566
00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:07,710
input some of their key,

567
00:15:07,740 --> 00:15:09,450
uh, data points and see the

568
00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:11,340
expected ROI of implanting

569
00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:12,420
uh, Twilio solution.

570
00:15:12,994 --> 00:15:13,774
Elle: I love it.

571
00:15:13,774 --> 00:15:14,584
That's amazing.

572
00:15:14,584 --> 00:15:15,424
Also, love that we have

573
00:15:15,424 --> 00:15:16,864
a shout out already to

574
00:15:16,864 --> 00:15:18,814
another incredible PMM.

575
00:15:20,338 --> 00:15:21,880
okay, so you, we have

576
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,320
this incredible, uh, ROI

577
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:24,550
calculator that started.

578
00:15:25,165 --> 00:15:27,025
As a tool for sales and then

579
00:15:27,025 --> 00:15:28,735
evolved into a growth channel.

580
00:15:29,001 --> 00:15:29,843
that's amazing.

581
00:15:30,023 --> 00:15:30,743
But you also

582
00:15:30,743 --> 00:15:32,513
mentioned blueprints.

583
00:15:32,753 --> 00:15:33,863
Tell me a little bit more

584
00:15:33,863 --> 00:15:35,363
about what that looked like.

585
00:15:35,363 --> 00:15:35,393
I.

586
00:15:35,972 --> 00:15:36,859
Brandon: Yeah, so.

587
00:15:37,182 --> 00:15:39,672
Going back to Twilio at its

588
00:15:39,672 --> 00:15:41,532
core, you know, being a suite

589
00:15:41,562 --> 00:15:43,902
of communication APIs, this

590
00:15:43,902 --> 00:15:45,912
again, was like 20 18, 20 19.

591
00:15:46,122 --> 00:15:47,112
Uh, the concept of

592
00:15:47,142 --> 00:15:49,482
API first SaaS was a

593
00:15:49,482 --> 00:15:50,802
relatively new concept.

594
00:15:50,802 --> 00:15:52,208
I'd say that, you know,

595
00:15:52,208 --> 00:15:53,798
we've seen huge players

596
00:15:53,798 --> 00:15:54,878
in, in this market across

597
00:15:54,878 --> 00:15:56,798
industries, uh, like Stripe,

598
00:15:56,828 --> 00:15:57,818
new Relic, et cetera.

599
00:15:58,149 --> 00:16:00,339
and because of the nature

600
00:16:00,339 --> 00:16:02,859
of APIs, we didn't really

601
00:16:02,859 --> 00:16:05,289
have the most robust demo

602
00:16:05,289 --> 00:16:06,879
library, so you couldn't

603
00:16:06,879 --> 00:16:08,409
really say like, okay, you

604
00:16:08,409 --> 00:16:09,579
want, like, here's what

605
00:16:09,579 --> 00:16:11,589
this does, but kind of like

606
00:16:11,859 --> 00:16:13,149
dream it, like feel like.

607
00:16:13,427 --> 00:16:14,447
here's the audit of possible

608
00:16:14,447 --> 00:16:15,527
and what it could look like.

609
00:16:15,527 --> 00:16:17,717
But we very much had to,

610
00:16:17,898 --> 00:16:20,238
take that and put it into

611
00:16:20,238 --> 00:16:21,408
the customer's words.

612
00:16:21,498 --> 00:16:23,688
And so in terms of like the

613
00:16:23,688 --> 00:16:24,978
blueprint design and the

614
00:16:24,978 --> 00:16:26,513
storyboarding, I. What we

615
00:16:26,513 --> 00:16:28,303
effectively did was, with our

616
00:16:28,303 --> 00:16:29,983
enterprise clients, we would

617
00:16:29,983 --> 00:16:31,153
actually just talk about like,

618
00:16:31,153 --> 00:16:33,373
what is the customer journey

619
00:16:33,403 --> 00:16:34,423
that you want to achieve?

620
00:16:34,513 --> 00:16:35,953
Just in your words, what

621
00:16:35,953 --> 00:16:38,233
are you ultimately trying to

622
00:16:38,263 --> 00:16:40,933
build and do from a customer

623
00:16:40,933 --> 00:16:41,953
engagement standpoint, I.

624
00:16:42,793 --> 00:16:43,753
Once the customer shared

625
00:16:43,753 --> 00:16:44,863
that with us, we actually

626
00:16:44,863 --> 00:16:46,273
had an illustrator on the

627
00:16:46,273 --> 00:16:48,013
team that would mock up these

628
00:16:48,013 --> 00:16:49,990
beautiful storyboards, to

629
00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:51,910
show, okay, your customer

630
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:53,473
as an example, let's just

631
00:16:53,473 --> 00:16:54,703
say I'll give Best Buy.

632
00:16:55,227 --> 00:16:56,637
best Buy would essentially

633
00:16:56,637 --> 00:16:57,777
say, okay, this was

634
00:16:57,777 --> 00:16:59,157
during the time of Covid.

635
00:16:59,420 --> 00:17:00,536
if a customer wanted to

636
00:17:00,536 --> 00:17:01,766
purchase a new washer and

637
00:17:01,766 --> 00:17:03,116
dryer machine, let's say

638
00:17:03,116 --> 00:17:04,436
they start on the Best Buy

639
00:17:04,436 --> 00:17:05,726
website, they're talking with

640
00:17:05,726 --> 00:17:07,755
chat, but then they convert

641
00:17:07,755 --> 00:17:09,825
to wanting to do a phone call.

642
00:17:09,975 --> 00:17:11,205
Well, most of the time,

643
00:17:11,265 --> 00:17:12,045
uh, and we all know

644
00:17:12,045 --> 00:17:13,395
this as consumers, when

645
00:17:13,395 --> 00:17:14,715
you're switching from a

646
00:17:14,715 --> 00:17:16,695
chat bot to a phone call

647
00:17:16,695 --> 00:17:17,895
or even to an email.

648
00:17:18,255 --> 00:17:19,695
Each of those channels that

649
00:17:19,695 --> 00:17:20,925
you switch to, you'll lose

650
00:17:20,925 --> 00:17:22,185
the context and you have to

651
00:17:22,185 --> 00:17:23,655
start completely

652
00:17:23,655 --> 00:17:24,435
from the beginning.

653
00:17:24,735 --> 00:17:25,725
so frustrating.

654
00:17:25,770 --> 00:17:26,340
Elle: time.

655
00:17:26,406 --> 00:17:26,616
Brandon: Mo,

656
00:17:26,676 --> 00:17:27,696
most of the times I'm just

657
00:17:27,696 --> 00:17:29,201
like, even when I'm, when like

658
00:17:29,201 --> 00:17:30,431
I'm talking to like an IVR

659
00:17:30,431 --> 00:17:31,751
nowadays at Twilio, you know,

660
00:17:31,751 --> 00:17:32,501
you can actually learn it.

661
00:17:32,501 --> 00:17:34,691
Just smash the button zero.

662
00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:35,291
And just like, I

663
00:17:35,291 --> 00:17:35,861
don't want to answer all

664
00:17:35,861 --> 00:17:36,551
these questions, just,

665
00:17:36,581 --> 00:17:37,848
just go directly to an

666
00:17:37,848 --> 00:17:38,208
agent.

667
00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:39,316
But yeah, so we, we would

668
00:17:39,376 --> 00:17:40,216
essentially whiteboard

669
00:17:40,216 --> 00:17:41,266
these things and when we

670
00:17:41,266 --> 00:17:42,106
were able to whiteboard

671
00:17:42,106 --> 00:17:43,514
that, and produce these

672
00:17:43,514 --> 00:17:45,486
really, neat creative

673
00:17:45,546 --> 00:17:46,626
storyboard illustrations.

674
00:17:47,183 --> 00:17:48,702
We would then, uh, show

675
00:17:48,702 --> 00:17:50,168
what's behind the scenes

676
00:17:50,228 --> 00:17:51,278
in each of these things.

677
00:17:51,278 --> 00:17:52,508
So it's a little bit hard

678
00:17:52,508 --> 00:17:53,782
to explain without showing.

679
00:17:54,085 --> 00:17:55,136
but, you know, we would

680
00:17:55,316 --> 00:17:56,636
storyboard it and then

681
00:17:56,636 --> 00:17:58,016
we would say, this is the

682
00:17:58,016 --> 00:18:01,196
technology that Twilio has

683
00:18:01,196 --> 00:18:03,206
that essentially powers this

684
00:18:03,206 --> 00:18:05,396
workflow or this mockup to

685
00:18:05,396 --> 00:18:06,566
be a real life scenario.

686
00:18:07,046 --> 00:18:08,636
And so, uh, we would

687
00:18:08,636 --> 00:18:10,064
essentially technically

688
00:18:10,064 --> 00:18:11,594
map out the roadmap and

689
00:18:11,594 --> 00:18:13,302
understand, based off of the

690
00:18:13,302 --> 00:18:14,622
understanding of, okay, these

691
00:18:14,622 --> 00:18:16,719
are the current, technologies

692
00:18:16,719 --> 00:18:17,949
and systems that the client

693
00:18:17,949 --> 00:18:19,389
has, their, you know, their

694
00:18:19,389 --> 00:18:21,009
CRM, their ERP, whatever it

695
00:18:21,009 --> 00:18:22,239
may be, what they're trying

696
00:18:22,239 --> 00:18:23,469
to accomplish, and show

697
00:18:23,469 --> 00:18:24,699
how Twilio kind of connects

698
00:18:24,699 --> 00:18:25,809
all the dots and fits into

699
00:18:25,809 --> 00:18:27,309
the picture so that when a

700
00:18:27,309 --> 00:18:28,839
customer was say like, okay,

701
00:18:28,869 --> 00:18:29,919
perfect, this is what I need.

702
00:18:29,919 --> 00:18:31,179
They can take that blueprint.

703
00:18:31,539 --> 00:18:32,829
And just start building

704
00:18:32,829 --> 00:18:33,579
internally with

705
00:18:33,579 --> 00:18:34,539
their developer team.

706
00:18:34,569 --> 00:18:35,889
Or if they didn't have

707
00:18:35,889 --> 00:18:37,269
developer resources.

708
00:18:37,389 --> 00:18:38,739
We had an amazing expert

709
00:18:38,739 --> 00:18:40,119
services team and program

710
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:41,559
at Twilio where we would

711
00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:42,729
partner really closely and

712
00:18:42,729 --> 00:18:44,529
hand off those blueprints to

713
00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:46,539
the expert services team that

714
00:18:46,539 --> 00:18:48,099
would actually go and build

715
00:18:48,099 --> 00:18:49,899
that exact solution that we

716
00:18:49,899 --> 00:18:51,249
whiteboarded for the customer.

717
00:18:51,714 --> 00:18:52,704
Elle: That's amazing.

718
00:18:52,704 --> 00:18:53,304
That's amazing.

719
00:18:53,304 --> 00:18:54,984
And I could imagine this,

720
00:18:55,197 --> 00:18:57,147
if some PMM out there wanted

721
00:18:57,147 --> 00:18:59,772
to iterate on this concept.

722
00:19:00,982 --> 00:19:02,032
If you have a professional

723
00:19:02,032 --> 00:19:03,082
service team or if you

724
00:19:03,082 --> 00:19:04,702
have partners, like channel

725
00:19:04,702 --> 00:19:06,412
partners who offer services

726
00:19:06,412 --> 00:19:08,362
on top of your product

727
00:19:08,362 --> 00:19:09,502
offering, this would be

728
00:19:09,502 --> 00:19:10,642
a great opportunity to

729
00:19:10,642 --> 00:19:12,562
loop a channel partner in.

730
00:19:12,877 --> 00:19:14,197
so I love that concept.

731
00:19:14,227 --> 00:19:16,417
Okay, so you had, these

732
00:19:16,537 --> 00:19:17,857
use case blueprints,

733
00:19:17,857 --> 00:19:19,297
the storyboard,

734
00:19:19,537 --> 00:19:21,217
the ROI calculator.

735
00:19:21,427 --> 00:19:23,587
These are great assets and

736
00:19:23,587 --> 00:19:25,507
I'm sure the sales team.

737
00:19:25,897 --> 00:19:26,737
Loved them.

738
00:19:26,947 --> 00:19:28,417
So when you were

739
00:19:28,417 --> 00:19:29,947
launching, did you have

740
00:19:29,947 --> 00:19:31,237
to do a pilot program?

741
00:19:31,237 --> 00:19:32,617
Did you have to get buy-in?

742
00:19:32,617 --> 00:19:33,307
I mean, who was your

743
00:19:33,307 --> 00:19:34,867
executive sponsor?

744
00:19:35,447 --> 00:19:36,227
Brandon: Yeah, that's,

745
00:19:36,227 --> 00:19:37,427
that's a fantastic question.

746
00:19:37,427 --> 00:19:39,677
So, you know, as we were

747
00:19:39,677 --> 00:19:41,177
piloting this stuff, a lot

748
00:19:41,177 --> 00:19:42,407
of it, as I mentioned, was

749
00:19:42,407 --> 00:19:44,537
just our sales reps asking

750
00:19:44,537 --> 00:19:46,101
if I can join the call to

751
00:19:46,101 --> 00:19:47,361
share some of this stuff or

752
00:19:47,361 --> 00:19:48,531
conduct some of these ROI

753
00:19:48,531 --> 00:19:50,031
analyses or just talk about

754
00:19:50,031 --> 00:19:51,321
how Twilio was differentiated.

755
00:19:51,321 --> 00:19:53,346
I. and I, I just noticed,

756
00:19:53,346 --> 00:19:54,696
like as I got pulled

757
00:19:54,696 --> 00:19:55,716
into more and more sales

758
00:19:55,716 --> 00:19:57,486
conversations, there were

759
00:19:57,486 --> 00:19:59,046
a handful of asks and, you

760
00:19:59,046 --> 00:20:00,486
know, we could pick up themes

761
00:20:00,486 --> 00:20:01,326
that were kind of the same.

762
00:20:01,326 --> 00:20:02,796
And so there was this one

763
00:20:02,796 --> 00:20:05,346
bucket of I want to really

764
00:20:05,346 --> 00:20:06,906
just like understand the art

765
00:20:06,906 --> 00:20:08,106
of the possible with Twilio.

766
00:20:08,166 --> 00:20:09,486
And so we called those like

767
00:20:09,546 --> 00:20:10,776
dreaming sessions or are

768
00:20:10,776 --> 00:20:11,826
the possible sessions where

769
00:20:11,826 --> 00:20:12,876
we would go in, ask these

770
00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:14,466
questions and do some, uh,

771
00:20:14,496 --> 00:20:15,336
high level whiteboarding

772
00:20:15,336 --> 00:20:16,926
together to then turn into

773
00:20:16,926 --> 00:20:17,946
one of these storyboards

774
00:20:17,946 --> 00:20:18,666
that I was mentioning.

775
00:20:19,101 --> 00:20:20,781
Uh, the second piece was

776
00:20:20,781 --> 00:20:22,101
customers wanting to have the

777
00:20:22,101 --> 00:20:23,541
technical blueprint analysis.

778
00:20:23,541 --> 00:20:25,401
So it was like, okay, like

779
00:20:25,791 --> 00:20:27,861
I know you have this demo

780
00:20:27,861 --> 00:20:29,271
at Twilio, but what does

781
00:20:29,271 --> 00:20:31,102
it actually look like, if I

782
00:20:31,102 --> 00:20:32,602
were to implement it today

783
00:20:32,872 --> 00:20:35,092
and showing how the various.

784
00:20:35,435 --> 00:20:36,395
Twilio suite of

785
00:20:36,395 --> 00:20:37,835
communications fit within

786
00:20:37,835 --> 00:20:38,915
their technology stack.

787
00:20:38,915 --> 00:20:39,815
And so we would just,

788
00:20:39,995 --> 00:20:41,015
you know, show the more

789
00:20:41,015 --> 00:20:42,515
technical blueprint analysis

790
00:20:42,515 --> 00:20:44,495
of how that storyboard and

791
00:20:44,495 --> 00:20:45,455
how that are the possible

792
00:20:45,455 --> 00:20:46,925
actually became possible.

793
00:20:46,985 --> 00:20:48,185
And then lastly, the,

794
00:20:48,185 --> 00:20:49,265
the second theme was

795
00:20:49,265 --> 00:20:50,075
like customers wanting

796
00:20:50,075 --> 00:20:51,305
to understand the value

797
00:20:51,395 --> 00:20:53,050
and the ROI of Twilio.

798
00:20:53,780 --> 00:20:55,310
And so we decided to very

799
00:20:55,310 --> 00:20:57,350
much design our suite of

800
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:58,040
the program was called

801
00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:58,820
Foundry, by the way.

802
00:20:58,820 --> 00:20:59,510
I don't know if I mentioned

803
00:20:59,510 --> 00:21:00,680
that it's been since re

804
00:21:00,710 --> 00:21:02,210
rebranded, but it still

805
00:21:02,210 --> 00:21:03,710
today is, is like a crucial

806
00:21:03,710 --> 00:21:05,580
part of how how the Twilio

807
00:21:05,580 --> 00:21:07,110
Enterprise team sells.

808
00:21:07,547 --> 00:21:08,276
but yeah, that's how

809
00:21:08,276 --> 00:21:09,146
we designed our, our

810
00:21:09,146 --> 00:21:11,186
services for our kind of,

811
00:21:11,186 --> 00:21:12,206
essentially for, for our

812
00:21:12,206 --> 00:21:13,316
prospects and customers.

813
00:21:13,517 --> 00:21:14,090
Elle: Y Yeah.

814
00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:14,330
Yeah.

815
00:21:14,330 --> 00:21:15,080
So you, you just

816
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,460
name dropped Foundry.

817
00:21:16,517 --> 00:21:17,163
that was gonna be my

818
00:21:17,163 --> 00:21:18,093
next question, is what

819
00:21:18,093 --> 00:21:19,083
this looked like from the

820
00:21:19,083 --> 00:21:20,433
customer's perspective.

821
00:21:20,763 --> 00:21:23,313
so programmatically calling

822
00:21:23,313 --> 00:21:24,423
it Foundry, tell me a little

823
00:21:24,423 --> 00:21:25,623
bit more about how that

824
00:21:25,623 --> 00:21:27,003
came to be, and then did

825
00:21:27,003 --> 00:21:27,993
you have to do marketing

826
00:21:27,993 --> 00:21:30,382
for Foundry or I guess what

827
00:21:30,382 --> 00:21:31,882
was the, the transition

828
00:21:31,882 --> 00:21:34,612
to this hyper-focused A

829
00:21:34,612 --> 00:21:36,172
BM style program that's

830
00:21:36,172 --> 00:21:37,342
officially foundry.

831
00:21:37,550 --> 00:21:38,030
Brandon: Yeah.

832
00:21:38,030 --> 00:21:38,390
Yeah.

833
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:39,836
So we called ourselves

834
00:21:39,836 --> 00:21:41,216
Foundry, uh, at the time, and

835
00:21:41,216 --> 00:21:42,536
Foundry was essentially like

836
00:21:42,536 --> 00:21:44,336
that special ops pre-sales

837
00:21:44,336 --> 00:21:45,506
team, if you will, that

838
00:21:45,506 --> 00:21:46,226
would go in and support

839
00:21:46,226 --> 00:21:47,276
our clients with running

840
00:21:47,276 --> 00:21:48,031
these various services.

841
00:21:48,926 --> 00:21:50,306
And in terms of having

842
00:21:50,306 --> 00:21:51,656
to market it, um, we

843
00:21:51,656 --> 00:21:52,886
found a few channels

844
00:21:52,886 --> 00:21:54,206
to be very successful.

845
00:21:54,415 --> 00:21:55,400
one was just, you know.

846
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:57,420
Because of the enablement

847
00:21:57,420 --> 00:21:59,580
work that we did, sales knew

848
00:21:59,610 --> 00:22:01,710
based off of the client that

849
00:22:01,710 --> 00:22:02,400
they were trying to sell

850
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,290
into, uh, kind of the, the

851
00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:05,040
certain hurdles that they

852
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,060
were trying to overcome,

853
00:22:06,258 --> 00:22:07,695
when it would be a good fit

854
00:22:07,725 --> 00:22:09,075
to engage the Foundry team.

855
00:22:09,075 --> 00:22:10,185
So if they found that this

856
00:22:10,185 --> 00:22:10,935
opportunity would be a good

857
00:22:10,935 --> 00:22:12,332
fit to loop us in, they

858
00:22:12,332 --> 00:22:13,862
would submit like a, a ticket

859
00:22:13,862 --> 00:22:15,422
within our internal process.

860
00:22:15,710 --> 00:22:17,381
that was one example.

861
00:22:17,549 --> 00:22:18,714
the second was actually

862
00:22:18,714 --> 00:22:19,794
marketing it on the

863
00:22:19,794 --> 00:22:20,604
enterprise page.

864
00:22:20,634 --> 00:22:21,234
So if you go to

865
00:22:21,234 --> 00:22:23,034
twilio.com/enterprise, I still

866
00:22:23,034 --> 00:22:24,084
think this page is live today.

867
00:22:24,084 --> 00:22:24,774
I'll have to, I'll have to

868
00:22:24,774 --> 00:22:25,404
double check.

869
00:22:25,674 --> 00:22:26,611
but it would talk about

870
00:22:26,611 --> 00:22:27,541
Foundry and again, it's

871
00:22:27,541 --> 00:22:28,711
been rebranded and I

872
00:22:28,711 --> 00:22:29,611
think it's executive

873
00:22:29,611 --> 00:22:30,871
engagement programs now.

874
00:22:31,117 --> 00:22:32,501
but you could essentially, you

875
00:22:32,501 --> 00:22:33,941
know, learn more about how you

876
00:22:33,941 --> 00:22:36,251
get this white glove service

877
00:22:36,251 --> 00:22:38,291
to really like hop into an

878
00:22:38,291 --> 00:22:39,461
executive briefing center with

879
00:22:39,461 --> 00:22:40,631
the totally executive team.

880
00:22:40,941 --> 00:22:41,843
do these are the possible

881
00:22:41,843 --> 00:22:43,283
sessions, um, and really

882
00:22:43,283 --> 00:22:44,603
understand how you can get

883
00:22:44,603 --> 00:22:46,193
the most value out of Twilio.

884
00:22:46,433 --> 00:22:47,498
And so we, definitely had

885
00:22:47,498 --> 00:22:48,578
a landing page with some

886
00:22:48,578 --> 00:22:49,658
language around that.

887
00:22:49,945 --> 00:22:51,317
and I'd say one of, one of

888
00:22:51,347 --> 00:22:52,817
the best forms of marketing

889
00:22:52,817 --> 00:22:54,803
was, oftentimes when that

890
00:22:54,803 --> 00:22:56,483
prospect converted to a closed

891
00:22:56,483 --> 00:22:58,784
customer, They would at times

892
00:22:58,964 --> 00:23:00,374
be able, like, talk about

893
00:23:00,374 --> 00:23:01,424
their foundry experience,

894
00:23:01,454 --> 00:23:02,744
give us social proof that

895
00:23:02,744 --> 00:23:04,034
we would then, uh, leverage

896
00:23:04,034 --> 00:23:05,264
internally, but also that our

897
00:23:05,264 --> 00:23:06,674
sales reps can also pull in

898
00:23:06,674 --> 00:23:08,174
their slide decks to pitch,

899
00:23:08,402 --> 00:23:10,009
the various foundry offerings

900
00:23:10,009 --> 00:23:10,999
and the impact that we had.

901
00:23:11,374 --> 00:23:12,274
Elle: I love it.

902
00:23:12,274 --> 00:23:13,414
That's fantastic.

903
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,088
so you've mentioned so

904
00:23:15,088 --> 00:23:16,958
much goodness here, Curious

905
00:23:16,958 --> 00:23:19,748
if you have any documents

906
00:23:19,748 --> 00:23:20,678
or examples that you'd

907
00:23:20,678 --> 00:23:21,608
be willing to share.

908
00:23:21,608 --> 00:23:22,808
Maybe a sample bill of

909
00:23:22,808 --> 00:23:24,368
materials to get started,

910
00:23:24,368 --> 00:23:25,298
or an example of what

911
00:23:25,298 --> 00:23:26,588
content might look like for

912
00:23:26,588 --> 00:23:28,552
customers to engage, with

913
00:23:28,552 --> 00:23:30,112
a program like Foundry.

914
00:23:30,377 --> 00:23:31,664
or I guess now it's the

915
00:23:31,664 --> 00:23:33,494
executive, I've already

916
00:23:33,494 --> 00:23:34,184
forgot what you mentioned.

917
00:23:34,605 --> 00:23:35,385
Brandon: Ex executive

918
00:23:35,564 --> 00:23:35,894
Elle: Yeah.

919
00:23:36,150 --> 00:23:37,604
Executive engagement program.

920
00:23:37,604 --> 00:23:38,084
Yes.

921
00:23:38,144 --> 00:23:38,654
Yes.

922
00:23:38,798 --> 00:23:39,938
do you have any examples?

923
00:23:39,938 --> 00:23:41,438
And if you do, we can,

924
00:23:41,438 --> 00:23:42,375
drop 'em in the show notes.

925
00:23:43,130 --> 00:23:43,880
Brandon: Yeah, I'll, I'll

926
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,080
have to do some digging to

927
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,452
see, what I have a lot of it.

928
00:23:47,452 --> 00:23:49,394
you know, we're very, as I

929
00:23:49,394 --> 00:23:50,864
mentioned, hyper-personalized,

930
00:23:50,864 --> 00:23:51,974
hyper customized.

931
00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:53,699
Like ROI analyses and

932
00:23:53,699 --> 00:23:54,929
workflows and blueprints

933
00:23:54,929 --> 00:23:55,739
for the customers that we

934
00:23:55,739 --> 00:23:57,329
oftentimes delivered in like

935
00:23:57,569 --> 00:23:59,639
a 60 page slide deck that,

936
00:23:59,670 --> 00:24:01,431
the customers took and,

937
00:24:01,431 --> 00:24:02,931
you know, started building

938
00:24:02,931 --> 00:24:04,551
against and executing upon.

939
00:24:04,791 --> 00:24:05,841
Um, and we'd have various

940
00:24:05,841 --> 00:24:06,771
touch points throughout that

941
00:24:06,771 --> 00:24:08,091
engagement, uh, in terms of

942
00:24:08,091 --> 00:24:10,251
check-ins to see how that was

943
00:24:10,251 --> 00:24:11,680
going to ensure that, they

944
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:12,850
would be success in doing it.

945
00:24:12,850 --> 00:24:14,440
So, a lot of it did have

946
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,120
some like, customer sensitive

947
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:17,430
information, but I'll have

948
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:18,570
to take a look at the archive

949
00:24:18,625 --> 00:24:20,285
Elle: Yeah, Okay.

950
00:24:20,524 --> 00:24:22,594
so last question, uh, for

951
00:24:22,594 --> 00:24:23,824
you on this topic, Brandon.

952
00:24:24,364 --> 00:24:26,164
Any last piece of advice

953
00:24:26,164 --> 00:24:27,304
you have for a product

954
00:24:27,304 --> 00:24:28,099
marketer who's trying to

955
00:24:28,159 --> 00:24:30,019
create a highly targeted

956
00:24:31,169 --> 00:24:32,899
pre-sales marketing campaign

957
00:24:32,899 --> 00:24:33,939
to improve win rates?

958
00:24:34,481 --> 00:24:35,935
Brandon: Yeah, so I'd say,

959
00:24:35,992 --> 00:24:37,102
one, it starts with like

960
00:24:37,102 --> 00:24:38,392
being customer obsessed

961
00:24:38,422 --> 00:24:39,142
and understanding the

962
00:24:39,142 --> 00:24:40,522
customer more than anyone

963
00:24:40,522 --> 00:24:41,632
within the organization.

964
00:24:41,662 --> 00:24:42,352
That's probably

965
00:24:42,352 --> 00:24:43,252
like the number one.

966
00:24:43,252 --> 00:24:44,062
If I had to leave you like

967
00:24:44,062 --> 00:24:45,472
number one advice, it would

968
00:24:45,472 --> 00:24:47,428
be that I. the second piece

969
00:24:47,698 --> 00:24:50,188
is again, we have this value

970
00:24:50,188 --> 00:24:51,783
at Twilio called Draw the Al.

971
00:24:52,303 --> 00:24:54,403
And a handful of other

972
00:24:54,403 --> 00:24:55,573
startups I think, have taken

973
00:24:55,573 --> 00:24:56,833
this to incorporate within

974
00:24:56,833 --> 00:24:59,053
their company values as well.

975
00:24:59,353 --> 00:25:00,915
But what that essentially

976
00:25:00,915 --> 00:25:03,435
meant was there isn't like,

977
00:25:03,465 --> 00:25:04,665
yes, there are playbooks

978
00:25:04,665 --> 00:25:05,805
and there are frameworks

979
00:25:05,805 --> 00:25:07,185
to build certain things

980
00:25:07,185 --> 00:25:08,415
and you know, playbooks

981
00:25:08,415 --> 00:25:09,675
are playbooks for a reason.

982
00:25:09,675 --> 00:25:11,655
There is definite success.

983
00:25:11,816 --> 00:25:12,302
well, I wouldn't say

984
00:25:12,302 --> 00:25:13,202
definite, but there's,

985
00:25:13,412 --> 00:25:15,032
uh, success stories behind

986
00:25:15,032 --> 00:25:15,902
those playbooks, which is

987
00:25:15,902 --> 00:25:16,952
why they are playbooks.

988
00:25:17,282 --> 00:25:19,232
But ultimately the story

989
00:25:19,232 --> 00:25:20,402
of Foundry and what we

990
00:25:20,402 --> 00:25:22,902
created, was just a, an idea.

991
00:25:22,964 --> 00:25:24,044
now companies have

992
00:25:24,044 --> 00:25:24,794
similar things.

993
00:25:24,794 --> 00:25:25,784
I know Stripe has an

994
00:25:25,784 --> 00:25:26,984
executive engagement programs

995
00:25:26,984 --> 00:25:28,484
that could be, you know,

996
00:25:28,574 --> 00:25:29,474
sim there, there's some

997
00:25:29,474 --> 00:25:30,374
aspects of that that are

998
00:25:30,374 --> 00:25:31,994
similar but also different

999
00:25:31,994 --> 00:25:33,194
to what Twilio is doing.

1000
00:25:33,464 --> 00:25:34,394
So I would just say like,

1001
00:25:34,544 --> 00:25:35,984
be very open and think

1002
00:25:35,984 --> 00:25:37,454
about, you know, if you

1003
00:25:37,454 --> 00:25:38,684
focus on the customer

1004
00:25:38,684 --> 00:25:39,824
and what your customer is

1005
00:25:39,824 --> 00:25:41,114
trying to achieve and the

1006
00:25:41,114 --> 00:25:42,284
themes that you're finding.

1007
00:25:42,597 --> 00:25:44,238
very much work to build a

1008
00:25:44,238 --> 00:25:46,068
solution, uh, and build a

1009
00:25:46,068 --> 00:25:47,748
program that is going to

1010
00:25:47,748 --> 00:25:48,858
best support your goals.

1011
00:25:49,038 --> 00:25:49,998
And those could be, you

1012
00:25:49,998 --> 00:25:51,108
know, existing things that

1013
00:25:51,108 --> 00:25:52,218
companies have that you

1014
00:25:52,218 --> 00:25:53,568
can find inspiration from.

1015
00:25:53,778 --> 00:25:55,098
But ultimately I think you're

1016
00:25:55,098 --> 00:25:56,598
gonna find the most success,

1017
00:25:56,598 --> 00:25:58,338
being able to create something

1018
00:25:58,338 --> 00:26:00,318
that's hyper personalized

1019
00:26:00,318 --> 00:26:01,938
and design for what you're

1020
00:26:01,938 --> 00:26:02,958
trying to accomplish and who

1021
00:26:02,958 --> 00:26:04,008
you're trying to sell to.

1022
00:26:04,419 --> 00:26:05,229
Elle: I love it.

1023
00:26:05,289 --> 00:26:06,939
Yes, absolutely.

1024
00:26:06,939 --> 00:26:08,529
The customer obsession is so

1025
00:26:08,529 --> 00:26:10,089
real for product marketers.

1026
00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:13,511
I think it there you have to

1027
00:26:13,516 --> 00:26:15,374
have a natural empathy to be.

1028
00:26:16,114 --> 00:26:17,224
A product marketer.

1029
00:26:17,299 --> 00:26:19,489
and that goes so hand in hand

1030
00:26:19,489 --> 00:26:20,929
with the customer obsession.

1031
00:26:20,929 --> 00:26:22,099
I could not agree more.

1032
00:26:22,714 --> 00:26:24,064
alright, so now it's time

1033
00:26:24,064 --> 00:26:25,624
for our next segment.

1034
00:26:25,654 --> 00:26:27,364
So this is our message

1035
00:26:27,364 --> 00:26:28,504
critique segment.

1036
00:26:29,044 --> 00:26:30,694
This is where we as product

1037
00:26:30,694 --> 00:26:32,684
marketing experts, analyze

1038
00:26:32,714 --> 00:26:34,484
real world messaging.

1039
00:26:34,694 --> 00:26:35,774
But here's the fun part,

1040
00:26:35,804 --> 00:26:36,929
you, Brandon, my guest,

1041
00:26:37,454 --> 00:26:38,834
get to choose the company.

1042
00:26:39,252 --> 00:26:40,159
and before we get started,

1043
00:26:40,159 --> 00:26:41,209
I wanna establish some

1044
00:26:41,209 --> 00:26:42,079
ground rules here.

1045
00:26:42,824 --> 00:26:44,234
So once you pick the company,

1046
00:26:44,414 --> 00:26:45,674
we're gonna walk through three

1047
00:26:45,674 --> 00:26:47,894
things, uh, related to this

1048
00:26:47,894 --> 00:26:49,274
message critique, exercise.

1049
00:26:49,604 --> 00:26:52,154
So first I wanna hear one

1050
00:26:52,154 --> 00:26:53,444
thing that you love about

1051
00:26:53,444 --> 00:26:54,554
the messaging, what's

1052
00:26:54,554 --> 00:26:56,834
working, what made the

1053
00:26:56,834 --> 00:26:57,884
product stand out to you?

1054
00:26:58,094 --> 00:26:59,966
And then second, share one

1055
00:26:59,996 --> 00:27:01,076
thing that you wish the

1056
00:27:01,076 --> 00:27:03,146
PMM had done differently.

1057
00:27:03,356 --> 00:27:04,346
Something that could have

1058
00:27:04,346 --> 00:27:05,636
made the message more clear

1059
00:27:05,636 --> 00:27:08,216
or stronger or more impactful.

1060
00:27:08,684 --> 00:27:10,178
and then third, where

1061
00:27:10,178 --> 00:27:11,348
could this go next?

1062
00:27:11,438 --> 00:27:12,398
How could you iterate

1063
00:27:12,398 --> 00:27:13,358
on the messaging?

1064
00:27:13,538 --> 00:27:15,038
Um, what creative campaigns

1065
00:27:15,038 --> 00:27:16,268
could the PMM think about?

1066
00:27:16,527 --> 00:27:17,857
maybe how could they test it

1067
00:27:17,857 --> 00:27:19,417
or take it to the next level?

1068
00:27:19,742 --> 00:27:21,332
So this is all about learning

1069
00:27:21,332 --> 00:27:22,502
and refining our craft.

1070
00:27:22,562 --> 00:27:23,402
No negativity.

1071
00:27:23,402 --> 00:27:24,602
Just a thoughtful,

1072
00:27:24,602 --> 00:27:26,192
constructive critique.

1073
00:27:26,612 --> 00:27:27,062
Sound good?

1074
00:27:27,443 --> 00:27:28,163
Brandon: All right.

1075
00:27:28,163 --> 00:27:28,973
Let's do it.

1076
00:27:29,603 --> 00:27:30,773
Elle: Okay, let's get into it.

1077
00:27:30,953 --> 00:27:31,915
So, tell me about a

1078
00:27:31,915 --> 00:27:33,145
product or company that

1079
00:27:33,145 --> 00:27:34,465
has caught your attention.

1080
00:27:34,465 --> 00:27:35,245
Good or bad,

1081
00:27:35,275 --> 00:27:36,295
somewhere in between.

1082
00:27:36,765 --> 00:27:37,365
Brandon: Yeah.

1083
00:27:37,365 --> 00:27:38,685
So there's this company

1084
00:27:38,685 --> 00:27:40,905
called Default, default.com,

1085
00:27:40,905 --> 00:27:41,475
and I don't know if

1086
00:27:41,475 --> 00:27:42,315
you wanna pull it up

1087
00:27:42,315 --> 00:27:43,095
on, on your

1088
00:27:43,180 --> 00:27:44,200
Elle: Yeah, I'm gonna

1089
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:44,890
pull it up right now.

1090
00:27:45,090 --> 00:27:45,865
default.com.

1091
00:27:46,134 --> 00:27:46,434
Brandon: Yeah.

1092
00:27:46,434 --> 00:27:48,354
So this is a product that,

1093
00:27:48,397 --> 00:27:49,845
during my time at Runway,

1094
00:27:49,905 --> 00:27:52,088
uh, we use heavily, to really

1095
00:27:52,268 --> 00:27:54,188
support with automating our

1096
00:27:54,188 --> 00:27:55,538
inbound funnel and increasing

1097
00:27:55,538 --> 00:27:56,798
the conversion rates from.

1098
00:27:57,152 --> 00:27:57,992
at the point in time when

1099
00:27:57,992 --> 00:27:59,762
someone books a demo all

1100
00:27:59,762 --> 00:28:00,902
the way to them being a

1101
00:28:00,902 --> 00:28:02,222
clo, a closed one customer.

1102
00:28:02,642 --> 00:28:04,209
And so why I'm choosing

1103
00:28:04,209 --> 00:28:05,619
default is because, uh,

1104
00:28:05,619 --> 00:28:06,819
I loved using m as as a

1105
00:28:06,819 --> 00:28:08,589
customer, but also, uh,

1106
00:28:08,589 --> 00:28:09,609
they just recently went

1107
00:28:09,609 --> 00:28:10,959
through a big rebrand.

1108
00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:12,969
Um, and so this is very

1109
00:28:12,969 --> 00:28:14,627
much like the new messaging.

1110
00:28:14,627 --> 00:28:14,687
And,

1111
00:28:15,124 --> 00:28:15,454
Elle: yeah.

1112
00:28:15,724 --> 00:28:16,594
We'll back up for a minute.

1113
00:28:16,594 --> 00:28:18,214
Tell me what do they do?

1114
00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:18,887
Brandon: Yeah.

1115
00:28:18,887 --> 00:28:20,753
So default is, essentially

1116
00:28:20,968 --> 00:28:22,793
a, a go-to market solution.

1117
00:28:23,033 --> 00:28:23,903
Uh, there's a lot of these

1118
00:28:23,963 --> 00:28:24,953
go-to-market software,

1119
00:28:25,133 --> 00:28:26,423
but they focus very

1120
00:28:26,423 --> 00:28:28,223
much on making inbound

1121
00:28:28,223 --> 00:28:29,783
scheduling much easier.

1122
00:28:29,783 --> 00:28:31,649
So if you have a clearly

1123
00:28:31,649 --> 00:28:34,289
defined ICP customer, you

1124
00:28:34,289 --> 00:28:35,549
can take that criteria.

1125
00:28:35,549 --> 00:28:36,809
Let's say a company,

1126
00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:37,259
you're like, you're

1127
00:28:37,259 --> 00:28:38,249
targeting companies with

1128
00:28:38,429 --> 00:28:40,109
minimum 50 employees,

1129
00:28:40,109 --> 00:28:41,309
upwards of a thousand.

1130
00:28:41,654 --> 00:28:42,614
Specifically financial

1131
00:28:42,614 --> 00:28:44,724
services industry, you can

1132
00:28:44,724 --> 00:28:46,584
use that criteria to say if

1133
00:28:46,584 --> 00:28:48,024
you click book a demo and

1134
00:28:48,024 --> 00:28:49,224
you input that information,

1135
00:28:49,569 --> 00:28:50,641
if you meet that criteria,

1136
00:28:50,641 --> 00:28:52,561
you can book a meeting on

1137
00:28:52,561 --> 00:28:54,541
a sales calendar like right

1138
00:28:54,541 --> 00:28:55,891
then and there versus I.

1139
00:28:56,191 --> 00:28:57,691
Having to request that demo

1140
00:28:57,691 --> 00:28:59,191
wait for sales to follow up.

1141
00:28:59,221 --> 00:29:00,091
Sales might take

1142
00:29:00,091 --> 00:29:01,021
anywhere from 24 to

1143
00:29:01,021 --> 00:29:02,131
40 hours to follow up.

1144
00:29:02,623 --> 00:29:03,563
And so you're very

1145
00:29:03,563 --> 00:29:04,823
much increasing the

1146
00:29:04,823 --> 00:29:06,053
conversion rate of like,

1147
00:29:06,053 --> 00:29:07,073
Hey, you're qualified.

1148
00:29:07,073 --> 00:29:08,243
I want to show you a

1149
00:29:08,243 --> 00:29:09,383
sales calendar now.

1150
00:29:09,383 --> 00:29:10,193
So you can book that

1151
00:29:10,193 --> 00:29:11,576
demo, and really start

1152
00:29:11,576 --> 00:29:12,746
that sales conversation.

1153
00:29:12,956 --> 00:29:13,886
And similarly, like if they

1154
00:29:13,886 --> 00:29:15,056
aren't qualified, you can

1155
00:29:15,056 --> 00:29:17,276
design with default these

1156
00:29:17,336 --> 00:29:18,596
other workflows that would

1157
00:29:18,596 --> 00:29:19,976
push you into like a really

1158
00:29:19,976 --> 00:29:21,656
great self-serve flow, uh,

1159
00:29:21,656 --> 00:29:22,646
or push you just different

1160
00:29:22,646 --> 00:29:24,236
things, um, that just make.

1161
00:29:24,566 --> 00:29:25,826
Inbound so much easier.

1162
00:29:25,826 --> 00:29:27,130
I call this like the leaky

1163
00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:28,150
bucket problem, right?

1164
00:29:28,150 --> 00:29:29,380
This is a well known like

1165
00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:31,000
phrase, which is like, you

1166
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,200
can have the best marketing

1167
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:33,580
you can do, have the best

1168
00:29:33,580 --> 00:29:34,810
paid acquisition in the world.

1169
00:29:35,155 --> 00:29:36,400
But if you aren't able

1170
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,140
to fix like the actual

1171
00:29:38,140 --> 00:29:39,610
inbound workflow piece,

1172
00:29:39,670 --> 00:29:41,050
you're, you're losing leads

1173
00:29:41,050 --> 00:29:42,190
at every single stage.

1174
00:29:42,190 --> 00:29:44,320
And so default very much,

1175
00:29:44,417 --> 00:29:45,104
as I mentioned, you were

1176
00:29:45,104 --> 00:29:46,394
using 'EM runway very much

1177
00:29:46,394 --> 00:29:47,594
helped automate that entire

1178
00:29:47,594 --> 00:29:49,274
process and have, uh, and

1179
00:29:49,274 --> 00:29:50,894
really bring us confidence in

1180
00:29:50,894 --> 00:29:52,124
increasing those conversion

1181
00:29:52,124 --> 00:29:54,014
rates from a sign up to a

1182
00:29:54,014 --> 00:29:55,274
qualified lead to a sales

1183
00:29:55,274 --> 00:29:56,294
qualified lead, et cetera.

1184
00:29:56,769 --> 00:29:57,369
Elle: I love that.

1185
00:29:57,369 --> 00:29:58,269
You know, it also sounds

1186
00:29:58,269 --> 00:29:59,379
like it really captures the

1187
00:29:59,379 --> 00:30:01,449
eagerness of the prospect too,

1188
00:30:01,599 --> 00:30:02,019
right?

1189
00:30:02,287 --> 00:30:03,667
Rather than making them wait,

1190
00:30:03,667 --> 00:30:04,747
like, ah, their energy kind

1191
00:30:04,747 --> 00:30:05,977
of goes down after that point.

1192
00:30:05,977 --> 00:30:07,029
So, I love it.

1193
00:30:07,059 --> 00:30:08,709
Okay, so let's, what do you,

1194
00:30:09,009 --> 00:30:09,969
let's, let's walk through the

1195
00:30:09,990 --> 00:30:10,590
Brandon: Yeah,

1196
00:30:10,650 --> 00:30:11,160
let's take a look.

1197
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:11,700
Let's take a look.

1198
00:30:11,700 --> 00:30:13,211
So, when you go to the default

1199
00:30:13,211 --> 00:30:14,891
homepage, you see here like

1200
00:30:14,891 --> 00:30:16,331
their, their hero copy.

1201
00:30:16,391 --> 00:30:18,581
So, uh, revamp inbound with

1202
00:30:18,581 --> 00:30:20,801
easier routing, actual intent

1203
00:30:20,831 --> 00:30:22,151
and, and faster scheduling.

1204
00:30:22,532 --> 00:30:23,762
and then the, the subheader

1205
00:30:23,792 --> 00:30:24,902
unlock efficient growth

1206
00:30:24,902 --> 00:30:26,072
with one platform that

1207
00:30:26,072 --> 00:30:26,852
automated scheduling,

1208
00:30:26,852 --> 00:30:27,542
routing, enrichment,

1209
00:30:27,542 --> 00:30:28,322
and intent workflows.

1210
00:30:28,787 --> 00:30:30,707
So I guess, you know, looking

1211
00:30:30,707 --> 00:30:32,747
at this, I like that the

1212
00:30:32,747 --> 00:30:34,037
headline is action oriented.

1213
00:30:34,217 --> 00:30:34,877
I think it's great.

1214
00:30:34,877 --> 00:30:36,287
I think it highlights key

1215
00:30:36,287 --> 00:30:38,147
things that default does,

1216
00:30:38,147 --> 00:30:39,317
which as I mentioned,

1217
00:30:39,557 --> 00:30:41,477
automated scheduling, routing,

1218
00:30:41,477 --> 00:30:43,764
enrichment, and I think that

1219
00:30:43,770 --> 00:30:45,630
the subheader, this concept

1220
00:30:45,630 --> 00:30:47,070
of all in one solution,

1221
00:30:47,370 --> 00:30:49,170
I know that's becoming, I

1222
00:30:49,170 --> 00:30:51,027
dunno, a little bit cliche

1223
00:30:51,027 --> 00:30:52,347
almo like nowadays or I'd

1224
00:30:52,347 --> 00:30:53,517
say like overused, where like

1225
00:30:53,517 --> 00:30:54,837
everyone's talking about like.

1226
00:30:55,122 --> 00:30:56,712
Hey, you can use, I mean,

1227
00:30:56,712 --> 00:30:57,672
even at Twilio, it was like

1228
00:30:57,672 --> 00:30:59,232
one platform for all your

1229
00:30:59,232 --> 00:31:00,072
customer engagement.

1230
00:31:00,597 --> 00:31:02,007
but I do think within the

1231
00:31:02,007 --> 00:31:04,377
space that they're in,

1232
00:31:04,527 --> 00:31:05,847
like there's this concept

1233
00:31:05,847 --> 00:31:07,227
of go to market bloat.

1234
00:31:07,257 --> 00:31:09,117
Like prior to default

1235
00:31:09,447 --> 00:31:10,917
companies would have,

1236
00:31:10,917 --> 00:31:11,637
like, if you weren't using

1237
00:31:11,637 --> 00:31:12,297
default, you're using

1238
00:31:12,327 --> 00:31:14,007
like 10 different various

1239
00:31:14,007 --> 00:31:15,718
products, and solutions for

1240
00:31:15,718 --> 00:31:17,038
like your inbound tech stack.

1241
00:31:17,038 --> 00:31:18,405
And so I think there,

1242
00:31:18,405 --> 00:31:19,095
that's an important

1243
00:31:19,095 --> 00:31:20,775
note that they hit on in

1244
00:31:20,775 --> 00:31:22,215
terms of like feedback.

1245
00:31:22,595 --> 00:31:23,345
I think that there's a

1246
00:31:23,345 --> 00:31:24,845
little bit of repetitiveness

1247
00:31:24,905 --> 00:31:27,845
between like the headline,

1248
00:31:27,875 --> 00:31:29,735
the revamp statement, and

1249
00:31:29,735 --> 00:31:30,545
the subheader.

1250
00:31:30,575 --> 00:31:32,255
There's some repetition in

1251
00:31:32,255 --> 00:31:33,635
terms of features, right?

1252
00:31:33,635 --> 00:31:34,590
I think there're

1253
00:31:34,595 --> 00:31:35,975
mentioning routing.

1254
00:31:36,005 --> 00:31:37,445
They're mentioning intent.

1255
00:31:37,655 --> 00:31:37,925
Yep.

1256
00:31:37,925 --> 00:31:39,125
They're mentioning scheduling.

1257
00:31:39,455 --> 00:31:41,405
And so from a product

1258
00:31:41,405 --> 00:31:43,055
marketing standpoint, I think.

1259
00:31:43,526 --> 00:31:44,545
my, my opinion of like,

1260
00:31:44,545 --> 00:31:47,095
when you're trying to create

1261
00:31:47,455 --> 00:31:49,405
good positioning and more

1262
00:31:49,405 --> 00:31:50,845
importantly like really good

1263
00:31:51,145 --> 00:31:53,641
hero copy, it's like how

1264
00:31:53,641 --> 00:31:55,771
do you explain what you do

1265
00:31:55,831 --> 00:31:57,391
in as few words as possible

1266
00:31:57,391 --> 00:31:57,931
without losing

1267
00:31:57,931 --> 00:31:58,471
clarity?

1268
00:31:59,395 --> 00:32:00,295
you're familiar with ramp.

1269
00:32:00,295 --> 00:32:01,825
Ramp has has, you know,

1270
00:32:01,855 --> 00:32:03,115
grown incredibly fast

1271
00:32:03,115 --> 00:32:04,015
over the last few years.

1272
00:32:04,465 --> 00:32:05,665
But I was recently on Ram's

1273
00:32:05,665 --> 00:32:06,625
website, and I don't know

1274
00:32:06,625 --> 00:32:07,465
if this is new messaging

1275
00:32:07,465 --> 00:32:08,725
or not, but if we pull up

1276
00:32:08,725 --> 00:32:10,356
their website, and just

1277
00:32:10,356 --> 00:32:11,754
compare and contrast the

1278
00:32:11,754 --> 00:32:12,864
two different companies.

1279
00:32:13,074 --> 00:32:14,904
Okay, time is Money Save both.

1280
00:32:15,204 --> 00:32:15,774
I think this is

1281
00:32:15,774 --> 00:32:17,364
just genius, right?

1282
00:32:17,364 --> 00:32:19,944
It's very few words, very

1283
00:32:19,944 --> 00:32:21,024
short, very to the point.

1284
00:32:21,024 --> 00:32:22,284
And you can get a sense

1285
00:32:22,284 --> 00:32:23,964
of the overall value

1286
00:32:23,964 --> 00:32:24,959
proposition of ramp.

1287
00:32:25,505 --> 00:32:26,401
and so once they have that

1288
00:32:26,401 --> 00:32:28,081
like very crisp header,

1289
00:32:28,261 --> 00:32:29,431
uh, they then go to

1290
00:32:29,431 --> 00:32:31,051
explain what, uh, within

1291
00:32:31,051 --> 00:32:32,011
the subheader, what they

1292
00:32:32,011 --> 00:32:32,971
actually do.

1293
00:32:33,271 --> 00:32:33,721
Right?

1294
00:32:33,721 --> 00:32:34,441
So easy to use

1295
00:32:34,441 --> 00:32:35,281
corporate cards, bill

1296
00:32:35,281 --> 00:32:36,001
payments, accounting,

1297
00:32:36,001 --> 00:32:36,901
and a whole lot more.

1298
00:32:36,961 --> 00:32:38,131
Again, all in one place.

1299
00:32:38,131 --> 00:32:39,241
You, you see the similar

1300
00:32:39,241 --> 00:32:40,831
messaging and so.

1301
00:32:41,371 --> 00:32:41,881
For default.

1302
00:32:41,881 --> 00:32:42,301
I think there's an

1303
00:32:42,301 --> 00:32:43,411
opportunity to do that.

1304
00:32:43,439 --> 00:32:44,969
a great test when trying

1305
00:32:44,969 --> 00:32:45,929
to come up with like hero

1306
00:32:45,929 --> 00:32:47,609
copy or any messaging.

1307
00:32:47,609 --> 00:32:48,059
I call this like

1308
00:32:48,059 --> 00:32:48,899
the parent test.

1309
00:32:48,984 --> 00:32:50,034
if you showed this

1310
00:32:50,034 --> 00:32:51,324
messaging to your parents,

1311
00:32:51,474 --> 00:32:52,674
would they understand

1312
00:32:52,734 --> 00:32:53,754
what the company does?

1313
00:32:54,129 --> 00:32:55,449
If the answer is no,

1314
00:32:55,479 --> 00:32:56,559
that means that there's

1315
00:32:56,559 --> 00:32:57,729
an opportunity for that

1316
00:32:57,729 --> 00:32:58,779
messaging to be simplified.

1317
00:32:58,779 --> 00:33:00,039
Now, my parents aren't in

1318
00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:01,329
tech and so, you know, take

1319
00:33:01,329 --> 00:33:02,349
that with a grain of salt.

1320
00:33:02,469 --> 00:33:03,609
But you can use that as

1321
00:33:03,609 --> 00:33:04,989
a, as a, as a guide more

1322
00:33:04,989 --> 00:33:06,279
or less to really make

1323
00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:08,199
it easy to understand.

1324
00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:09,319
I always like to think

1325
00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:10,279
like, don't try and

1326
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:11,269
complicate things.

1327
00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:12,259
You know, the ramp example

1328
00:33:12,259 --> 00:33:13,399
time is money, save both.

1329
00:33:13,639 --> 00:33:14,929
It's just very simple,

1330
00:33:14,929 --> 00:33:16,189
very approachable language.

1331
00:33:16,709 --> 00:33:17,639
Elle: Absolutely.

1332
00:33:17,639 --> 00:33:18,179
Yeah.

1333
00:33:18,179 --> 00:33:20,039
Uh, another test that

1334
00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:20,639
I've heard, I think it's

1335
00:33:20,639 --> 00:33:21,779
called The barbecue test,

1336
00:33:22,409 --> 00:33:24,329
where, so where if you, if

1337
00:33:24,329 --> 00:33:26,219
you go to a barbecue, you

1338
00:33:26,279 --> 00:33:28,718
take this messaging, and you.

1339
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:30,220
if someone asks you,

1340
00:33:30,250 --> 00:33:31,150
oh, what does revamp do?

1341
00:33:31,150 --> 00:33:31,990
Well, revamp.

1342
00:33:32,386 --> 00:33:32,626
sorry.

1343
00:33:32,626 --> 00:33:34,366
What does default do You say,

1344
00:33:34,366 --> 00:33:35,506
well, default lets you revamp

1345
00:33:35,506 --> 00:33:36,826
inbound with easier routing.

1346
00:33:36,826 --> 00:33:37,576
Actual intent.

1347
00:33:37,576 --> 00:33:38,176
It festers.

1348
00:33:38,176 --> 00:33:38,716
'cause you're like, you

1349
00:33:38,716 --> 00:33:39,706
wouldn't talk like that

1350
00:33:39,706 --> 00:33:41,026
as a barbe at a barbecue.

1351
00:33:41,116 --> 00:33:41,566
You know?

1352
00:33:41,601 --> 00:33:42,021
Brandon: exactly.

1353
00:33:42,408 --> 00:33:43,247
Elle: So, I'm on

1354
00:33:43,247 --> 00:33:43,937
board with that.

1355
00:33:43,997 --> 00:33:45,587
Like, very simple

1356
00:33:45,857 --> 00:33:46,607
to the point.

1357
00:33:46,607 --> 00:33:47,807
We don't have to use

1358
00:33:47,807 --> 00:33:50,747
verbose language just

1359
00:33:50,747 --> 00:33:52,007
to get our point across.

1360
00:33:52,274 --> 00:33:53,024
Brandon: All right, so

1361
00:33:53,024 --> 00:33:54,554
key takeaway listeners.

1362
00:33:54,554 --> 00:33:55,754
Organize a barbecue with

1363
00:33:55,754 --> 00:33:56,834
your parents if you're trying

1364
00:33:56,834 --> 00:33:57,739
to refine your messaging.

1365
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:58,689
Elle: Exactly.

1366
00:34:00,178 --> 00:34:01,438
Brandon: I'll also say, um,

1367
00:34:01,438 --> 00:34:02,578
I was just realizing, I, I

1368
00:34:02,578 --> 00:34:04,288
noticed scrolling, scrolling

1369
00:34:04,288 --> 00:34:05,548
down on, on the new homepage.

1370
00:34:05,548 --> 00:34:06,628
I'm actually featured there.

1371
00:34:06,823 --> 00:34:08,217
caveat, I, I, by no

1372
00:34:08,217 --> 00:34:10,107
means am an investor in

1373
00:34:10,107 --> 00:34:11,247
this company, so I'm not

1374
00:34:11,247 --> 00:34:12,207
talking to my own book.

1375
00:34:12,447 --> 00:34:12,927
Uh, I'm

1376
00:34:12,927 --> 00:34:14,727
just, I'm just, a, I'm

1377
00:34:14,727 --> 00:34:15,897
just a happy customer.

1378
00:34:15,987 --> 00:34:17,427
Um, so yeah, that was

1379
00:34:17,462 --> 00:34:17,877
that was funny.

1380
00:34:17,877 --> 00:34:18,177
See.

1381
00:34:18,918 --> 00:34:20,208
And, and even on this, I

1382
00:34:20,208 --> 00:34:21,539
love, as you're scrolling

1383
00:34:21,539 --> 00:34:22,936
through the homepage, this

1384
00:34:22,936 --> 00:34:23,956
is actually beautiful.

1385
00:34:23,982 --> 00:34:25,249
again, this, this was just

1386
00:34:25,249 --> 00:34:26,419
released I think a week or

1387
00:34:26,419 --> 00:34:28,129
two ago, and I know, Nico,

1388
00:34:28,129 --> 00:34:29,119
the founder and, and the

1389
00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:30,319
default team really well.

1390
00:34:30,589 --> 00:34:31,744
But, um, what I love here

1391
00:34:31,804 --> 00:34:33,264
is each of these core

1392
00:34:33,264 --> 00:34:34,464
product capabilities.

1393
00:34:35,284 --> 00:34:36,574
They're making it even

1394
00:34:36,574 --> 00:34:38,224
stronger by showing

1395
00:34:38,224 --> 00:34:39,154
the social proof and

1396
00:34:39,154 --> 00:34:40,624
showing a customer story

1397
00:34:40,804 --> 00:34:42,607
that's very much associated

1398
00:34:42,874 --> 00:34:44,104
with that product capability.

1399
00:34:44,104 --> 00:34:44,554
So,

1400
00:34:44,831 --> 00:34:46,061
Elle: yes, I also really

1401
00:34:46,061 --> 00:34:47,831
like that they right next to

1402
00:34:47,831 --> 00:34:49,151
the product capability, they

1403
00:34:49,151 --> 00:34:52,019
show you an illustration to

1404
00:34:52,019 --> 00:34:53,789
help you firmly understand.

1405
00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:56,459
So kudos to that team.

1406
00:34:56,969 --> 00:34:57,419
You guys are

1407
00:34:57,419 --> 00:34:58,559
doing a great job.

1408
00:34:58,632 --> 00:35:00,762
maybe tweak your header.

1409
00:35:02,393 --> 00:35:02,963
Okay.

1410
00:35:02,963 --> 00:35:03,953
Amazing.

1411
00:35:04,327 --> 00:35:06,247
Brandon, before we go, uh, I

1412
00:35:06,247 --> 00:35:08,167
wanna have a gratitude moment

1413
00:35:08,257 --> 00:35:10,717
and say thank you so much

1414
00:35:10,717 --> 00:35:12,157
for your willingness to share

1415
00:35:12,157 --> 00:35:13,897
your knowledge and expertise

1416
00:35:13,897 --> 00:35:15,307
with me, um, in the product

1417
00:35:15,307 --> 00:35:16,657
marketing community today.

1418
00:35:16,837 --> 00:35:18,277
Thank you so much.

1419
00:35:18,713 --> 00:35:18,803
and.

1420
00:35:19,078 --> 00:35:19,468
Brandon: at you.

1421
00:35:19,528 --> 00:35:20,518
I think this is, uh, an

1422
00:35:20,518 --> 00:35:21,778
incredibly fun project that

1423
00:35:21,778 --> 00:35:22,648
you're work working on.

1424
00:35:22,703 --> 00:35:23,303
Elle: Yay.

1425
00:35:23,393 --> 00:35:23,843
Thank you.

1426
00:35:24,325 --> 00:35:25,855
I know for me personally,

1427
00:35:25,885 --> 00:35:27,625
expert marketers like yourself

1428
00:35:27,625 --> 00:35:30,325
have firmly shaped my PMM

1429
00:35:30,325 --> 00:35:32,065
craft, and I'm curious for

1430
00:35:32,065 --> 00:35:33,775
you who are maybe one or two

1431
00:35:33,775 --> 00:35:35,545
pmms who have really impacted

1432
00:35:35,545 --> 00:35:37,200
your career and, you know,

1433
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,340
this is a great opportunity

1434
00:35:38,340 --> 00:35:39,630
to give some public kudos.

1435
00:35:39,972 --> 00:35:42,132
Brandon: Yeah, so the two

1436
00:35:42,162 --> 00:35:44,202
pmms that come to mind, uh,

1437
00:35:44,202 --> 00:35:45,582
were on my team at Shopify.

1438
00:35:45,863 --> 00:35:47,263
Danny Gibson and Theo

1439
00:35:47,263 --> 00:35:49,033
Earl, two of probably the

1440
00:35:49,033 --> 00:35:49,993
best product marketers

1441
00:35:49,993 --> 00:35:51,193
I've ever had the, the

1442
00:35:51,193 --> 00:35:52,393
opportunity of working with.

1443
00:35:52,393 --> 00:35:55,033
So they're fantastic and I'm

1444
00:35:55,033 --> 00:35:55,933
calling 'em out 'cause they

1445
00:35:55,933 --> 00:35:56,833
should totally get on this

1446
00:35:56,833 --> 00:35:58,963
pod and share their insights.

1447
00:35:59,488 --> 00:35:59,978
Elle: Amazing.

1448
00:36:00,028 --> 00:36:01,698
Danny and Theo, I'm coming

1449
00:36:01,758 --> 00:36:03,738
for you sliding into your dms.

1450
00:36:04,993 --> 00:36:05,563
Brandon: I can definitely

1451
00:36:05,563 --> 00:36:06,103
help with that.

1452
00:36:06,443 --> 00:36:07,568
I can, make a warm intro.

1453
00:36:07,970 --> 00:36:08,807
Elle: Thanks Brandon.

1454
00:36:09,107 --> 00:36:09,587
Um, okay.

1455
00:36:09,587 --> 00:36:10,667
And my last question for

1456
00:36:10,667 --> 00:36:12,707
you, where else can we

1457
00:36:12,707 --> 00:36:13,847
access your expertise?

1458
00:36:13,847 --> 00:36:14,987
Is it just best to

1459
00:36:15,017 --> 00:36:15,882
find you on LinkedIn?

1460
00:36:16,284 --> 00:36:17,154
Brandon: Yeah, li

1461
00:36:17,154 --> 00:36:18,174
LinkedIn is probably the

1462
00:36:18,174 --> 00:36:19,224
best place to find me.

1463
00:36:19,284 --> 00:36:20,394
Um, send me a

1464
00:36:20,394 --> 00:36:21,312
connection request.

1465
00:36:21,616 --> 00:36:23,356
if you do, you'll also see

1466
00:36:23,356 --> 00:36:24,916
some of my, I try not to be

1467
00:36:24,916 --> 00:36:26,356
too cringe, but, you know,

1468
00:36:26,416 --> 00:36:27,676
LinkedIn content, you kind of

1469
00:36:27,676 --> 00:36:31,336
have to be cringe, so Yeah,

1470
00:36:31,366 --> 00:36:32,206
de definitely, that's

1471
00:36:32,216 --> 00:36:32,556
Elle: all just

1472
00:36:32,576 --> 00:36:33,176
embracing it.

1473
00:36:33,316 --> 00:36:33,556
Brandon: Me.

1474
00:36:34,406 --> 00:36:34,856
Elle: Great.

1475
00:36:34,856 --> 00:36:35,486
I love it.

1476
00:36:35,786 --> 00:36:36,956
Again, thank you so much

1477
00:36:36,956 --> 00:36:38,636
Brandon, and Thank you PMM

1478
00:36:38,636 --> 00:36:40,226
listeners for coming on this

1479
00:36:40,226 --> 00:36:41,156
adventure with us today.

1480
00:36:41,396 --> 00:36:43,226
I hope this episode leaves you

1481
00:36:43,226 --> 00:36:45,026
with inspiration to take the

1482
00:36:45,026 --> 00:36:46,616
next step in your own journey.

1483
00:36:46,810 --> 00:36:47,740
Brandon: Thank you so much.