WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.610 Matt: Mark Szymanski with the marathon sprint today of 00:00:04.630 --> 00:00:05.770 live streams and recordings. 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:06.479 Welcome back. 00:00:07.319 --> 00:00:07.860 Matt Medeiros. 00:00:07.910 --> 00:00:08.840 Always a pleasure, brother. 00:00:08.930 --> 00:00:09.629 Thank you so much. 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:10.969 Sorry for cheating on you earlier. 00:00:11.300 --> 00:00:11.649 Then you 00:00:11.649 --> 00:00:16.660 Matt: were live streaming with, uh, the one, the only Kevin Geary. 00:00:16.880 --> 00:00:19.980 And, uh, I want to, we want to talk about some of the stuff that you guys 00:00:19.980 --> 00:00:23.139 chatted about today, not about the YouTube character guy, but you know, 00:00:23.139 --> 00:00:26.999 obviously the WordPress stuff, then you and I were just on the, What was it? 00:00:26.999 --> 00:00:31.650 The second or the third you, like WordPress YouTuber team 00:00:31.810 --> 00:00:33.410 meeting, whatever that means. 00:00:33.410 --> 00:00:35.029 And we're going to talk about a little bit about that today. 00:00:35.290 --> 00:00:40.260 Folks who are hearing this, uh, and watching this, that meeting happened 00:00:40.260 --> 00:00:45.070 today, but you probably won't see the recording I'd imagine for another week 00:00:45.289 --> 00:00:53.010 or so, um, so you're hearing some of the results and some of our literally 00:00:53.020 --> 00:00:55.009 raw reactions to that, that meeting. 00:00:55.950 --> 00:01:01.520 Um, before it, you've actually seen the content of it and it's not all bad, but 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:06.420 we're just reacting to some of the stuff, um, as we demystify WordPress seems to be, 00:01:06.500 --> 00:01:09.179 uh, the, the journey many of us are on. 00:01:09.179 --> 00:01:11.479 It's like understanding not just WordPress, the software, but 00:01:11.699 --> 00:01:14.820 WordPress, the organization, uh, the foundation, wordpress. 00:01:14.820 --> 00:01:20.109 com, automatic folks like Ann who, uh, really extend, uh, the largest 00:01:20.119 --> 00:01:24.770 all of branches I've ever seen from, for, uh, from automatic to, 00:01:24.809 --> 00:01:28.059 uh, to the WordPress community and especially to content creators. 00:01:28.410 --> 00:01:29.899 So we're just going to chat about some of that stuff. 00:01:29.969 --> 00:01:32.689 Give you that, that, that raw feedback. 00:01:33.469 --> 00:01:38.009 Do you, Mark, do you want to just set the stage to what this initiative is 00:01:38.050 --> 00:01:41.630 from and to YouTubers and other creators? 00:01:41.649 --> 00:01:46.115 Like, do you have a sense of how you would You know, pitch this to 00:01:46.434 --> 00:01:49.994 those of us, or those watching and listening to what this initiative is. 00:01:50.845 --> 00:01:55.214 I absolutely have a Interpretation of what it is. 00:01:55.244 --> 00:01:55.744 I don't know. 00:01:55.774 --> 00:02:00.174 I don't know if it's actually even fully formulated Um, I want to start off by 00:02:00.174 --> 00:02:04.434 saying if anything we say here is I'm assuming this I would say 100 percent this 00:02:04.434 --> 00:02:07.785 goes for Matt, too We're not talking about like individuals or anything like that. 00:02:07.785 --> 00:02:11.825 I think everything that we're talking about here is like extremely conceptual 00:02:12.624 --> 00:02:14.575 Because if we dive into some of the topics that were talked about 00:02:14.575 --> 00:02:17.284 there and everything, like there's definitely different ways to do things. 00:02:17.284 --> 00:02:20.994 And the thing that I have appreciated so much about what Ann has put together with 00:02:20.994 --> 00:02:26.325 these calls here, just in two, two quick calls, like the amount of like Matt said, 00:02:26.784 --> 00:02:30.824 the olive branches that have been extended and the amount of open communication line 00:02:30.825 --> 00:02:33.304 that has been created here is incredible. 00:02:33.304 --> 00:02:37.234 And I learned more deep stuff and important things on that 00:02:37.234 --> 00:02:38.194 call than I had learned. 00:02:39.234 --> 00:02:39.875 In WordPress. 00:02:39.904 --> 00:02:41.295 Interestingly, Matt already knew all that. 00:02:41.295 --> 00:02:42.075 We'll get, we'll touch on that. 00:02:42.434 --> 00:02:46.374 But the stage, the, the, the, the, the, to set the stage there is Anne 00:02:46.374 --> 00:02:48.795 McCarthy is a employee of automatic. 00:02:48.795 --> 00:02:50.734 She has her hands in many different projects. 00:02:50.734 --> 00:02:52.284 She does a ton of great work there. 00:02:52.714 --> 00:02:57.135 And she set up kind of like a uniting WordPress YouTubers initiative. 00:02:57.405 --> 00:02:59.584 And all it is is basically calls that get recorded and 00:02:59.584 --> 00:03:00.924 then ultimately post on YouTube. 00:03:00.924 --> 00:03:05.364 But it's with people like myself, Matt, Kim Geary, um, WP Tots was on there. 00:03:05.374 --> 00:03:09.064 Imran, um, It wasn't on today, but like a lot, a lot of, a lot of big 00:03:09.064 --> 00:03:10.554 names, Jackson, Jamie Marsland. 00:03:11.404 --> 00:03:13.054 So we're all on there. 00:03:13.114 --> 00:03:17.354 And basically we were on there today with Anne McCarthy, Aaron 00:03:17.354 --> 00:03:19.314 Jorban, who is a core contributor. 00:03:19.904 --> 00:03:24.494 Um, I apologize if I get any of these titles wrong, but Nick Diego is also, I 00:03:24.494 --> 00:03:28.524 believe a heavy contributor, automatic employee, you know, better than me. 00:03:28.924 --> 00:03:32.564 And then also I believe did, was there another one Hector? 00:03:33.630 --> 00:03:37.369 forgetting his last name, but I think there was a fourth that are all like 00:03:37.380 --> 00:03:41.969 very, um, in the know, so to speak, like their core contributors or they 00:03:41.969 --> 00:03:44.799 are automatic employees and sponsor, you know, automatic sponsored. 00:03:45.350 --> 00:03:49.539 Um, and we don't, I feel like in this space now that everything has gotten 00:03:49.539 --> 00:03:53.540 bigger, we talk a lot and we speculate a lot, but we don't talk enough to the 00:03:53.540 --> 00:03:57.290 people that are actually either making decisions or in the know, so to speak. 00:03:57.499 --> 00:03:59.999 And I just loved that because I thought that was fantastic. 00:03:59.999 --> 00:04:00.269 Now. 00:04:01.209 --> 00:04:02.659 We could get into some of the details. 00:04:02.739 --> 00:04:04.229 Did I agree with all the details? 00:04:04.229 --> 00:04:05.499 Was I confused as hell? 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:06.299 For sure. 00:04:06.459 --> 00:04:08.499 Um, and I know other people on the call were as well. 00:04:08.779 --> 00:04:14.289 But, um, but the fact that it's, it's, it's way different to speculate and 00:04:14.299 --> 00:04:17.260 think that this is going on, like, like certain things are the way they are 00:04:17.260 --> 00:04:20.654 because whatever, and then actually Get the answers like the answer you 00:04:20.685 --> 00:04:24.155 need that you need that because then it's a totally different conversation 00:04:24.215 --> 00:04:26.385 And it's like actual fact based stuff. 00:04:26.385 --> 00:04:27.584 So I love it. 00:04:27.664 --> 00:04:29.885 I thought it was great and we can dive into it But we're you're 00:04:30.594 --> 00:04:34.385 Matt: well, I want I want to lead with because I forget the the crumb 00:04:34.385 --> 00:04:36.004 trails of conspiracy theories. 00:04:36.005 --> 00:04:40.504 I've left Throughout either all of my content or on like other channels 00:04:40.505 --> 00:04:44.975 Podcasts and YouTube channels, but I think what we're seeing is the 00:04:45.015 --> 00:04:52.254 unfolding of or unpacking of a greater initiative dating back to when Josefa 00:04:52.264 --> 00:04:54.444 did her talk at the State of the Word. 00:04:54.804 --> 00:04:57.794 Uh, it was, I think I even said this, maybe it was the last 00:04:57.794 --> 00:04:58.664 show that you and I were doing. 00:04:58.835 --> 00:05:01.984 It was, she either did this last State of the Word or the One before that, 00:05:02.385 --> 00:05:05.664 where, you know, she recognized in order for WordPress to thrive, it's going 00:05:05.664 --> 00:05:09.624 to need that, that community aspect all over again, like the, there's no 00:05:09.624 --> 00:05:12.954 feature that's going to happen anytime soon where everyone's gonna like, Oh 00:05:12.974 --> 00:05:14.414 my God, like, this is the thing I want. 00:05:14.434 --> 00:05:17.504 And all of a sudden WordPress trajectory is going to go up, um, 00:05:17.544 --> 00:05:19.914 nor should they just rely on like the software, the features to do this. 00:05:19.914 --> 00:05:25.034 So I think there's this, uh, uh, overarching, uh, initiative 00:05:25.044 --> 00:05:26.445 internally at automatic. 00:05:26.760 --> 00:05:31.440 Um, directed from Matt down to Josefa and then throughout the, you know, whatever 00:05:31.450 --> 00:05:36.679 lieutenants or whatever you want to call them and Nick, rich, um, all these folks 00:05:36.679 --> 00:05:41.259 who are much more in the community these days, like doing hangouts, creating 00:05:41.259 --> 00:05:46.370 YouTube videos, doing blog posts like her source of truth that and does, I 00:05:46.370 --> 00:05:53.470 think there's an initiative to engage in content creation and content creators. 00:05:53.854 --> 00:05:54.625 in the space. 00:05:54.755 --> 00:05:59.614 Now, my LinkedIn just told me Matt report hit the 14 year anniversary today 00:05:59.645 --> 00:06:01.315 or yesterday or something like that. 00:06:01.905 --> 00:06:03.135 This is a long road. 00:06:03.135 --> 00:06:06.685 This has been a long road and I'm not the only one there. 00:06:06.924 --> 00:06:09.024 Obviously, there's many other people who have been doing this. 00:06:10.450 --> 00:06:15.780 But piggyback off of, um, some of the, um, the rants that not rants, but the, 00:06:15.790 --> 00:06:20.100 the, the, the very passionate remarks from Kevin in your earlier live stream 00:06:20.100 --> 00:06:23.989 today, where he was saying things like, Hey man, we're like, they should be 00:06:23.989 --> 00:06:26.619 building WordPress for agency owners and professionals because we're the 00:06:26.620 --> 00:06:28.190 ones bringing people to WordPress. 00:06:28.520 --> 00:06:30.700 And there was content creators out there who say the same thing. 00:06:30.710 --> 00:06:33.730 Like if it weren't for my content, This audience wouldn't exist. 00:06:33.740 --> 00:06:37.790 People wouldn't be amped up because no one at dot org is doing that kind of 00:06:37.790 --> 00:06:41.740 like cheerleading the way agencies and freelancers do it for their customers 00:06:41.930 --> 00:06:46.010 and the way us content creators do it for like the hopeful average wordpress user. 00:06:46.589 --> 00:06:50.990 Um, so this is like 20 year, like 15, 20 years in the making where 00:06:51.019 --> 00:06:52.280 automatic is finally saying, 00:06:52.640 --> 00:06:52.799 Oh, 00:06:52.799 --> 00:06:57.500 Matt: yeah, like, let's work with these folks who have criticized us in the past, 00:06:57.580 --> 00:07:02.939 um, or, you know, or have crazy conspiracy theories or, or have made great content 00:07:02.939 --> 00:07:04.539 about us and nice content about us. 00:07:04.539 --> 00:07:08.169 And finally, like, let's, let's dig our heels into that. 00:07:08.455 --> 00:07:10.424 into that community because we need them. 00:07:11.304 --> 00:07:15.094 Like suddenly we need them, um, because there is no marketing budget. 00:07:15.104 --> 00:07:19.015 There is no Wix ad for a WordPress equivalent to a Wix 00:07:19.015 --> 00:07:20.575 ad in a Super Bowl or whatever. 00:07:21.014 --> 00:07:24.315 Um, and I think they've finally, finally have realized that. 00:07:24.455 --> 00:07:26.344 And that's this initiative rolling out. 00:07:27.104 --> 00:07:27.765 Is it perfect? 00:07:28.005 --> 00:07:29.245 No, it just started. 00:07:29.325 --> 00:07:29.625 Let's. 00:07:29.965 --> 00:07:31.294 Be honest, it just started. 00:07:31.615 --> 00:07:34.885 Um, but with like the MediaCore and what, with Anne's doing and now 00:07:34.885 --> 00:07:39.385 the announcement of Jamie Marslin being the head of WordPress YouTube. 00:07:40.604 --> 00:07:44.145 I don't know if I really love that title, but we can unpack that in a moment. 00:07:44.574 --> 00:07:51.005 We're starting to see oh by the way, WordPress needs us content creators. 00:07:51.344 --> 00:07:57.215 There's also a very, very big initiative to Kevin's um, um, to appease, not 00:07:57.215 --> 00:08:00.474 appease Kevin, but to hopefully make Kevin a little bit happier. 00:08:00.745 --> 00:08:04.144 This is a big initiative at Automatic for Automatic for Agencies, right? 00:08:04.144 --> 00:08:09.474 And this is, this big outreach happening to connect with the agencies more deeply 00:08:09.724 --> 00:08:12.835 in the Automatic realm of things, VIP. 00:08:13.224 --> 00:08:14.544 com, Jetpack, et cetera. 00:08:15.265 --> 00:08:18.224 So it's like, yeah man, we've been, we've been wanting this 00:08:18.255 --> 00:08:20.294 connection from Automatic for years. 00:08:21.125 --> 00:08:22.715 And we're starting to see. 00:08:23.310 --> 00:08:28.210 the start of these, of these dominoes starting, um, you know, to fall, which, 00:08:28.330 --> 00:08:33.400 Hey, it's great, but I will be also on the sideline saying like I've done 00:08:33.619 --> 00:08:39.980 for my entire professional WordPress career is I will, uh, I will keep you 00:08:39.980 --> 00:08:45.410 at arm's length, uh, and understand like what you're after so that I'm not 00:08:45.420 --> 00:08:49.390 going all in and I'm getting the rug pulled out of me out from under me. 00:08:49.760 --> 00:08:55.115 Um, and that I'm not, you know, Just giving up all kinds of, uh, you know, 00:08:55.115 --> 00:09:01.885 resources for something, uh, that is ultimately benefiting literal 00:09:02.025 --> 00:09:04.514 YouTube channels of, of other folks. 00:09:04.945 --> 00:09:07.185 Uh, so that's where we're at. 00:09:07.364 --> 00:09:11.599 Uh, that's how a lot of this stuff is playing out, at least from my perspective. 00:09:12.230 --> 00:09:17.130 And, um, I think the call was, went well with, with the lineup that we had today. 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:19.060 Really wish there was more time. 00:09:19.060 --> 00:09:23.049 And this is just like the human issues when you have like 15 people 00:09:23.050 --> 00:09:26.710 on a, on a call and I was going to, I was going to make a joke, like 00:09:26.710 --> 00:09:29.260 the title of this episode should be, can I just jump in a minute? 00:09:30.209 --> 00:09:33.720 Because that, that's what it was at, you know, as everybody had like these 00:09:33.730 --> 00:09:37.160 great, like, uh, you know, thoughts and stuff for, for the questions really 00:09:37.160 --> 00:09:39.540 wish Aaron would have, um, been able to. 00:09:40.125 --> 00:09:44.055 expand more for the folks on the call, how the whole apparatus works. 00:09:44.055 --> 00:09:46.985 That's why I brought in one of my questions about, Hey, can you explain 00:09:46.985 --> 00:09:50.335 like track versus get hub and why we're there and how we ended up there? 00:09:50.805 --> 00:09:57.984 Um, so the, the idea behind this call, I think was to inform YouTubers on how 00:09:57.985 --> 00:10:02.175 the apparatus works so that we could sort of pass that knowledge down to 00:10:02.175 --> 00:10:06.095 our own audience is, is, you know, what I was getting out of that call. 00:10:07.220 --> 00:10:07.540 Okay. 00:10:07.540 --> 00:10:07.770 Yeah. 00:10:07.770 --> 00:10:08.390 A lot there. 00:10:08.430 --> 00:10:10.880 Um, we need 15 more of those calls in my opinion. 00:10:11.180 --> 00:10:11.480 Oh yeah. 00:10:11.930 --> 00:10:13.030 To even scratch the surface. 00:10:13.040 --> 00:10:14.490 So that's the first thing. 00:10:14.499 --> 00:10:19.160 The second thing is, uh, it's a small, it's a small point, but I 00:10:19.169 --> 00:10:23.169 think that I agree with what you're saying about the, the initiative, but 00:10:23.169 --> 00:10:26.930 I think it's important to say that at this current moment, it's not. 00:10:27.525 --> 00:10:29.125 It's not an initiative that we know. 00:10:29.145 --> 00:10:31.715 It's still kind of based on perception and speculation. 00:10:32.135 --> 00:10:35.594 It's not like, um, it's, we, we should have asked quite frankly, 00:10:35.594 --> 00:10:36.504 and we will on the next one. 00:10:36.505 --> 00:10:41.150 Like we should just ask like, Ann, is there a A consorted effort to do X, Y, Z. 00:10:41.150 --> 00:10:44.340 Like we are kind of seeing, like, is it, is it, cause I think, cause I 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:47.150 think like we could be seeing something and it's like actually no way we're 00:10:47.150 --> 00:10:48.430 just throwing shit against the wall. 00:10:48.439 --> 00:10:51.130 Like everybody is doing something that looks like it's all tied 00:10:51.130 --> 00:10:52.299 together, but not at all. 00:10:52.560 --> 00:10:54.510 That could be the possible, that could be a possibility. 00:10:54.510 --> 00:10:55.290 I'm not a hundred percent sure. 00:10:56.060 --> 00:10:57.429 So it'd be great to get some clarity on that. 00:10:57.429 --> 00:11:00.109 Cause that is a good thing because then that might tell us some things and we 00:11:00.109 --> 00:11:03.599 might be able to, you know, like help accordingly contribute or whatever. 00:11:04.069 --> 00:11:10.905 Um, So, I mean, if we kind of dive into the call from the top down, I 00:11:10.915 --> 00:11:13.755 thought, again, it was incredibly insightful and incredibly interesting. 00:11:13.765 --> 00:11:16.785 I thought the, the minds and the questions that we had on the call and 00:11:16.785 --> 00:11:19.204 you guys can watch it, you know, we'll link it up or whenever, when it's, 00:11:19.224 --> 00:11:21.554 when it's live and I'll share it out on mine, I'm sure Matt will as well. 00:11:21.974 --> 00:11:26.395 Um, I thought it was really good in all of that sense that 00:11:26.395 --> 00:11:27.704 it was extremely eyeopening. 00:11:27.715 --> 00:11:33.230 It was extremely interesting, but if I could summarize, like, what I What the 00:11:33.260 --> 00:11:40.510 overall call taught me was just like, I am like kind of shocked at the, like, it, 00:11:40.780 --> 00:11:44.910 because all of the things that people have been saying, like, why don't we do this? 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.930 That is not at all what, like, apparently the core team of 00:11:48.930 --> 00:11:52.079 WordPress thinks WordPress should be. 00:11:52.930 --> 00:11:56.329 And at the, at the core of WordPress, it is very opinionated on what it 00:11:56.329 --> 00:11:58.219 should be, which I'm not, I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong. 00:11:58.229 --> 00:11:59.189 I'm just saying what I learned here. 00:12:00.119 --> 00:12:03.670 We bring up the philosophy page, which we should show, like, you know, just 00:12:03.699 --> 00:12:05.310 type in WordPress philosophy or whatever. 00:12:05.780 --> 00:12:08.949 And, and it, and like I didn't read it in full, but like it got brought 00:12:08.949 --> 00:12:09.849 up and we were talking about it. 00:12:09.870 --> 00:12:11.260 And that is not it. 00:12:11.290 --> 00:12:15.449 Like I didn't even understand like the concepts got came up about like WordPress 00:12:15.469 --> 00:12:19.199 being obviously a blogging platform before and now it's still kind of is. 00:12:19.579 --> 00:12:24.209 And there's a sentiment that every website on WordPress should still 00:12:24.209 --> 00:12:26.199 kind of be a blog, so to speak. 00:12:27.130 --> 00:12:30.120 To at least the point that it's still kind of the main concern even though 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:31.939 like the words blog are no longer there. 00:12:32.199 --> 00:12:34.540 We talked about like everything that everybody comes up about the 00:12:34.540 --> 00:12:36.350 CMS, like the CMS should be better. 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:43.289 And the sentiment that I got there was that they, like the core team kind of 00:12:43.289 --> 00:12:48.709 does agree, but at the same time, that's, that's, it's more of just a base, like 00:12:48.739 --> 00:12:50.489 platform for people to grow off of. 00:12:50.810 --> 00:12:53.729 Which again, I could see some, some reasons to say that. 00:12:54.029 --> 00:12:54.259 But. 00:12:54.660 --> 00:12:57.730 The main thing that I would say is that from the people that I know on that, 00:12:57.810 --> 00:13:02.199 on that call, the questions that were asked is that the way that the core 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:06.170 team of WordPress, whoever is like making those decisions, those opinion, 00:13:06.170 --> 00:13:11.769 like literally the sentiment, the, the, the, the opinion of the core team is so 00:13:11.769 --> 00:13:17.280 far different than most people that I associate with in the WordPress space. 00:13:17.550 --> 00:13:19.140 Like it's, it's not at all the same. 00:13:19.250 --> 00:13:21.840 It is absolutely not in line with a typical agency. 00:13:22.405 --> 00:13:28.345 Website situation, which, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is 00:13:28.355 --> 00:13:32.355 just different and that is extremely eyeopening to hear that directly 00:13:32.515 --> 00:13:34.634 rather than it being speculated. 00:13:35.145 --> 00:13:37.245 And I know that you, like I messaged you during the thing. 00:13:37.245 --> 00:13:38.994 I was like, are you learning in this call? 00:13:39.344 --> 00:13:42.085 Are you, are your eyes being opened or did you already know this? 00:13:42.105 --> 00:13:43.415 And you said, Nope, I knew it already. 00:13:43.635 --> 00:13:48.295 And I'm like, that's crazy because like I'm learning and, and I think a lot of 00:13:48.295 --> 00:13:49.644 other people learned on that call too. 00:13:49.975 --> 00:13:50.795 And it was just like. 00:13:51.620 --> 00:13:58.619 I don't know how it happened, but maybe it's because like the core of WordPress, 00:13:58.939 --> 00:14:02.869 the actual, the, the, the marketing, so to speak, that is, or is not existing 00:14:02.869 --> 00:14:06.119 in WordPress is not opinionated, but the philosophy is opinionated. 00:14:06.430 --> 00:14:11.209 So then what has happened, happened over time is that creators have interpreted 00:14:11.209 --> 00:14:13.150 WordPress and use it in a certain way. 00:14:13.150 --> 00:14:17.590 And then they give off the vision of WordPress, but it's not actually in 00:14:17.590 --> 00:14:19.080 line with the philosophy of WordPress. 00:14:19.645 --> 00:14:19.885 Right. 00:14:19.915 --> 00:14:23.594 Which is, uh, interesting, to say the least. 00:14:23.625 --> 00:14:24.055 Yeah, 00:14:24.255 --> 00:14:29.474 Matt: it's, it's 20 years of, you know, a messy room, right? 00:14:29.724 --> 00:14:33.494 It's just like, the whole philosophy thing, like, I've known Aaron, 00:14:34.135 --> 00:14:39.445 you know, for my entire entirety of being in, in WordPress. 00:14:39.805 --> 00:14:44.680 Um, So when this philosophy, and I have it pulled up right here, and I'm not going 00:14:44.680 --> 00:14:48.010 to read the whole thing, but, uh, it will be linked up in the, in the show notes. 00:14:48.010 --> 00:14:48.790 Just go to wordpress. 00:14:48.790 --> 00:14:50.760 org slash about slash philosophy. 00:14:51.179 --> 00:14:53.749 Uh, the, the out of the box, great software should work with little 00:14:53.750 --> 00:14:56.240 configuration and set up WordPress is designed to get you up and running fully 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:58.010 functional in no longer than five minutes. 00:14:58.060 --> 00:15:01.920 That was like the famous five minute installer from decades ago, 00:15:02.270 --> 00:15:05.510 designed for the majority decisions, not options, clean, lean, and mean 00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:09.300 striving for simplicity deadlines, not arbitrary in the vocal minority. 00:15:09.439 --> 00:15:12.819 And then our Bill of Rights, which are the four freedoms, uh, of open source. 00:15:13.290 --> 00:15:16.119 Um, check that out if, if you've never seen it before. 00:15:16.650 --> 00:15:21.839 And, and maybe this is why, and maybe I was explaining it to you 00:15:21.839 --> 00:15:26.209 wrong early on, cause I remember when, like, you and I first met, we 00:15:26.209 --> 00:15:28.459 were talking about all these things, WordPress, and we still do it today. 00:15:28.819 --> 00:15:31.699 And I say, that's why, cause WordPress is not a product like this. 00:15:31.849 --> 00:15:35.739 WordPress is not a product that's being designed the way that 00:15:35.739 --> 00:15:37.359 you think it's being designed. 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:37.699 It's a product. 00:15:38.150 --> 00:15:42.129 Nuances, like everything else, yes, automatic, largest contributor, et 00:15:42.140 --> 00:15:46.479 cetera, et cetera, but, and maybe it's because I've already forgotten, 00:15:46.479 --> 00:15:49.540 this is the messy room thing, like, I've already forgotten so much about, 00:15:49.540 --> 00:15:53.270 like, where it started and, like, the philosophy and, like, all of these things. 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:58.819 Um, So there's that like maybe I was explaining it to you wrong, 00:15:58.819 --> 00:16:00.089 like this is why it's not a product. 00:16:00.099 --> 00:16:01.550 This is why you can't in there. 00:16:01.609 --> 00:16:04.719 You know, when we first met, this is why you can't wrap your head around it because 00:16:04.719 --> 00:16:08.129 it's not a bricks or an element or where they're like, okay, here's the roadmap. 00:16:08.180 --> 00:16:10.559 Give me your feedback and we'll just do this because it 00:16:10.560 --> 00:16:12.020 just doesn't exist like that. 00:16:12.479 --> 00:16:18.869 And there's the benevolent dictator of, of Mullenweg and any open source product. 00:16:19.510 --> 00:16:25.410 project like this, like a Drupal with Dries Butart, um, and Linus, or Linus 00:16:25.420 --> 00:16:31.870 from the Linux kernel, which powers Linux, um, there's that, that level of 00:16:31.870 --> 00:16:38.090 dictatorship, benevolent dictatorship, where Matt Mullenweg has crafted this 00:16:38.090 --> 00:16:45.350 idea, and it has spawned many different iterations over the last 20 years, right, 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.865 he is still the visionary behind this, And then there's like the, the, like 00:16:49.865 --> 00:16:54.165 the core committing, you know, team that is sort of executing, but still against 00:16:54.395 --> 00:16:57.194 the backdrop of like this philosophy. 00:16:57.604 --> 00:17:03.475 I also don't disagree with it being a blog first platform, but go ahead. 00:17:03.485 --> 00:17:06.544 You, you react to that and we can talk about the, the blog thing. 00:17:06.844 --> 00:17:07.225 I mean, I, 00:17:09.540 --> 00:17:12.840 I would just say that, like, uh, I, I was sitting there and I was 00:17:12.840 --> 00:17:16.050 thinking, Okay, this is really eye opening because if this is all, like, 00:17:16.060 --> 00:17:18.930 actually a philosophy, I asked the first question in the con in the, in 00:17:18.930 --> 00:17:21.190 the conversation, and I was like, Okay. 00:17:21.369 --> 00:17:23.460 Because as soon as the philosophy thing was brought up, I was like, and 00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:24.520 there were some comments made about it. 00:17:24.520 --> 00:17:27.970 I was like, okay, so has this been the philosophy for 20 years? 00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:29.490 Has it evolved over time at all? 00:17:29.560 --> 00:17:30.230 Anything like that? 00:17:30.230 --> 00:17:31.340 20 years is a long time. 00:17:31.730 --> 00:17:34.920 And like, I don't care how visionary you are in 20 years, because Matt 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.180 Mullenweg has done an incredible job and he's, he's done, Amazing things. 00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:40.700 This is, we're not, I'm not discounting anything WordPress. 00:17:40.940 --> 00:17:44.860 However, times do change and needs change and just the world changes 00:17:44.860 --> 00:17:46.180 and software absolutely changes. 00:17:46.530 --> 00:17:52.430 So I'm wondering like, like it's like, just did the 20 years ago, did this 00:17:52.430 --> 00:17:55.609 philosophy, like as it's changed a little bit and it was mentioned that 00:17:55.610 --> 00:17:58.629 some things were amended or whatever, like, do we still agree that that 00:17:58.629 --> 00:18:01.639 is like the actual best of all that? 00:18:02.570 --> 00:18:06.670 But as I say that, when I say, do, do we agree? 00:18:06.730 --> 00:18:07.810 I guess that doesn't matter. 00:18:08.175 --> 00:18:11.245 Because I'm actually really confused actually on that. 00:18:11.275 --> 00:18:14.935 And, and I think that I'm understanding it now, but I still 00:18:14.935 --> 00:18:15.785 don't have an answer for it. 00:18:15.785 --> 00:18:17.015 I still don't have a full lab. 00:18:17.024 --> 00:18:17.925 So let me try to explain this. 00:18:18.185 --> 00:18:22.094 Like we have Aaron Jorban, incredible dudes done so much for the, for the 00:18:22.095 --> 00:18:27.295 project, as I understand and everything he is kind of representing the core. 00:18:27.355 --> 00:18:31.205 What is the core contributors, core committers, core team, core contributors 00:18:31.205 --> 00:18:32.515 that I have core contributors. 00:18:32.925 --> 00:18:33.255 So. 00:18:33.875 --> 00:18:38.515 Are we saying that the core contributors are the ones that actually create 00:18:38.525 --> 00:18:40.135 the opinions of the software? 00:18:40.165 --> 00:18:40.835 That's right, right? 00:18:40.855 --> 00:18:41.775 It's fair to say that? 00:18:42.145 --> 00:18:43.205 Matt: No, it's not. 00:18:43.305 --> 00:18:44.235 So, okay. 00:18:44.335 --> 00:18:51.564 They, they are the ones, I mean, they're, they are a very vocal majority 00:18:51.565 --> 00:18:55.565 of like how things are going to get, literally, first of all, they're the, 00:18:55.695 --> 00:19:00.095 they're the last line, the last mile that actually commits, like technically 00:19:00.095 --> 00:19:03.585 speaking, they're the ones that have the power to commit the code. 00:19:04.030 --> 00:19:05.590 To WordPress, right? 00:19:06.230 --> 00:19:10.440 Um, our friend of the show, Brian cords, you know, great developer, but 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:12.750 they're not just going to, Oh yeah, take your code and throw it in there. 00:19:13.159 --> 00:19:15.909 Um, it still has to be obviously vetted through the chain. 00:19:15.909 --> 00:19:20.010 And then the last line of literal defense of like, who can get code into 00:19:20.010 --> 00:19:24.059 this thing that impacts millions and millions of sites are these people. 00:19:24.739 --> 00:19:29.960 Then they are also the ones that are from the broader perspectives, looking at the 00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:32.080 bigger features that are being built. 00:19:32.390 --> 00:19:32.780 I don't know. 00:19:33.635 --> 00:19:39.195 block API, notifications API, um, obviously Gutenberg, um, whatever 00:19:39.195 --> 00:19:44.364 like major pillar features of WordPress and functions of WordPress. 00:19:44.905 --> 00:19:49.964 They're the ones that are sort of, I guess, overseeing that, those things. 00:19:49.974 --> 00:19:54.865 And then within those camps are the dozens, if not hundreds of 00:19:54.865 --> 00:19:59.540 developers who are like, Working towards whatever that goal is, right? 00:19:59.540 --> 00:20:05.779 So like we bring up, um, what's the, uh, the migration, um, not the 00:20:05.780 --> 00:20:07.530 data liberation, data liberation. 00:20:08.550 --> 00:20:12.409 So that's like a, a project and like, you know, anybody could just pick 00:20:12.410 --> 00:20:18.180 that up and start building their own plugin or code piece for WordPress that 00:20:18.180 --> 00:20:21.110 says for the data liberation project, this is what I'm going to build. 00:20:21.110 --> 00:20:24.429 It's going to take Wix to WordPress, WordPress to Wix, um, you know, and 00:20:24.430 --> 00:20:26.129 those core contributors would once it. 00:20:26.545 --> 00:20:27.525 Gets up to the chain. 00:20:27.535 --> 00:20:31.575 They would be the ones that look at that and evaluate it and say, yes, this is, 00:20:31.615 --> 00:20:35.905 this is good enough or for WordPress core, or maybe, you know what, this is going to 00:20:35.915 --> 00:20:40.915 stay in a standalone plugin that you're, that you'll just operate on the side. 00:20:41.064 --> 00:20:41.625 Good job. 00:20:41.875 --> 00:20:43.024 You run it as a plugin. 00:20:43.054 --> 00:20:47.535 You maintain it as a plugin, but it's not, it's not reaching 00:20:47.535 --> 00:20:49.495 into, into core right now. 00:20:50.125 --> 00:20:58.035 Um, you know, and again, Mullenweg still, um, The one sort of painting 00:20:58.045 --> 00:21:01.605 the big picture for all of us and then the core team are the ones that 00:21:01.605 --> 00:21:04.445 kind of look at that and go, okay, this is what you want to execute. 00:21:05.455 --> 00:21:09.505 We're the team behind that and then we'll advocate for the rest. 00:21:09.524 --> 00:21:10.064 I gotta stop. 00:21:10.064 --> 00:21:10.615 I gotta stop. 00:21:10.655 --> 00:21:14.164 Like, this isn't, this is another one though that I feel like we 00:21:14.165 --> 00:21:15.095 should have asked this question. 00:21:15.175 --> 00:21:15.605 Maybe we can. 00:21:15.605 --> 00:21:21.575 I, is, is what you just said there speculation or is it true? 00:21:21.575 --> 00:21:21.625 Yeah. 00:21:22.705 --> 00:21:26.345 Because you know that for a fact that Matt, that Matt Mullenweg is still like 00:21:26.355 --> 00:21:28.305 the guy he's still like doing everything. 00:21:28.585 --> 00:21:29.155 He's the release 00:21:29.305 --> 00:21:29.605 Matt: lead. 00:21:29.744 --> 00:21:33.254 He's the release lead on every release except for one, I think. 00:21:34.605 --> 00:21:35.734 So like 6. 00:21:35.734 --> 00:21:36.175 7 is coming. 00:21:36.265 --> 00:21:37.465 He's the release lead. 00:21:39.605 --> 00:21:40.865 Does that, is that true though? 00:21:40.905 --> 00:21:42.615 I mean like, is he actually doing that? 00:21:42.755 --> 00:21:43.745 Is he actually doing that? 00:21:43.745 --> 00:21:46.945 Or is it, is it like a, it hasn't even the release lead on like every single one. 00:21:47.350 --> 00:21:48.040 Matt: Yeah, or something. 00:21:48.050 --> 00:21:48.400 Yeah. 00:21:48.570 --> 00:21:48.810 Yep. 00:21:48.850 --> 00:21:50.460 Is it just ceremonial at this point? 00:21:50.460 --> 00:21:50.690 Or is he 00:21:50.690 --> 00:21:53.330 Matt: actually like, it's a good, I mean, it's a good question. 00:21:53.370 --> 00:21:54.500 Is it ceremonial? 00:21:54.520 --> 00:21:58.320 You should interview him, but I, I should have asked that guy. 00:21:58.660 --> 00:22:03.789 Um, I, you know, I think it's a little bit of, it's ceremonial, but there's 00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:08.450 also like, if there's a something there that is not going according to 00:22:08.450 --> 00:22:13.090 his plan, then he could step in at any time and be like, you know what? 00:22:13.090 --> 00:22:16.590 This is not really, this is not really the thing we should pursue. 00:22:16.600 --> 00:22:16.620 Yeah. 00:22:17.130 --> 00:22:20.870 Or at least be like a real, obviously, you know, it's like 00:22:20.870 --> 00:22:22.210 your boss say, how's your job? 00:22:22.830 --> 00:22:23.690 And you're like, it's fine. 00:22:24.370 --> 00:22:25.400 You know, don't fire me. 00:22:25.569 --> 00:22:27.120 You know, it's like that same kind of vibe. 00:22:27.130 --> 00:22:29.630 Like, it's like, well, you know, I, I, here's my thoughts on this. 00:22:29.630 --> 00:22:32.419 And then a lot of people will react being a little Matt doesn't like that. 00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:33.879 It's, it's a pretty pressing matter. 00:22:34.490 --> 00:22:37.980 Um, He's not, you know, I don't know if he's writing code anymore. 00:22:37.980 --> 00:22:43.170 You could literally check, um, Track or, or the, the Gutenberg repo. 00:22:43.199 --> 00:22:45.420 You know, I don't think he's writing any code anymore, but 00:22:45.739 --> 00:22:49.860 certainly evaluating it from a, you know, from a vision standpoint. 00:22:50.739 --> 00:22:53.159 I just, uh, you know, again, from out, from the, from the call, I 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:54.640 was just, I kind of learned that, 00:22:56.895 --> 00:23:00.825 The way that I see WordPress and it's, this is really, I mean, this is really 00:23:00.875 --> 00:23:02.295 kind of, kind of messes with your head. 00:23:02.305 --> 00:23:06.204 The way that like I've seen WordPress in my six year tenure, obviously 00:23:06.205 --> 00:23:07.035 not as long as everyone else. 00:23:07.035 --> 00:23:11.845 Like what I, it's so strange because like the way that I interpret 00:23:11.845 --> 00:23:17.155 it is so different than the way the core team and the philosophy 00:23:17.155 --> 00:23:18.555 of WordPress is like designed. 00:23:18.865 --> 00:23:21.745 And then we also, we go a layer deeper where it's like democratize 00:23:21.745 --> 00:23:23.595 publishing and WordPress for everyone. 00:23:23.935 --> 00:23:26.455 Which admirable, admirable mission. 00:23:27.125 --> 00:23:30.755 But I asked the question specifically on the call as well, based off a 00:23:30.755 --> 00:23:31.945 couple other people that were talking. 00:23:31.945 --> 00:23:36.365 I was like, so what is the actual goal of WordPress? 00:23:36.455 --> 00:23:38.145 And again, I don't care what the goal is. 00:23:38.265 --> 00:23:39.465 Like I'm not at that stage yet. 00:23:39.465 --> 00:23:39.645 Right. 00:23:39.645 --> 00:23:41.165 I'm still like trying to gather the data. 00:23:41.175 --> 00:23:43.225 Like I need the, I need the truth. 00:23:43.285 --> 00:23:46.095 I need the source to tell me. 00:23:46.415 --> 00:23:48.815 And then I can be like, okay, now I know what the truth is. 00:23:48.815 --> 00:23:51.365 It let like what, what the actual goal is according to the 00:23:51.365 --> 00:23:52.655 actual people that set the goal. 00:23:53.015 --> 00:23:55.265 And then I can be like, okay, do I agree with that or do I not? 00:23:55.735 --> 00:23:57.504 And then, and then we have another discussion from there. 00:23:57.504 --> 00:24:00.435 And the goal that I got was literally like democratize publishing. 00:24:01.135 --> 00:24:06.355 And I specifically asked, is it to get everyone and more people on the WordPress 00:24:06.365 --> 00:24:10.565 platform did not hear that as, as a goal. 00:24:10.985 --> 00:24:15.225 And that's fine if it's not the goal, but that is totally different than 00:24:15.225 --> 00:24:17.645 what a lot of people think the goal is. 00:24:17.955 --> 00:24:22.004 Because, maybe it's because they're used to like a product mentality, where 00:24:22.004 --> 00:24:26.674 product is generally like, we want more customers, rather than an open source 00:24:26.674 --> 00:24:31.525 project which has like a completely different type of goal that's just like 00:24:31.575 --> 00:24:35.965 out for the good of people democratizing publishing and all that sort of stuff. 00:24:36.295 --> 00:24:39.410 Which again, if that's the case, it's fine, But if we don't have 00:24:39.410 --> 00:24:43.200 that clarity, which now I guess we kind of do, then we can't have the 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:44.490 same conversation as if we did. 00:24:44.550 --> 00:24:47.130 If we had that clarity is the way that I mean, it's like, 00:24:47.709 --> 00:24:50.749 Matt: well, let's talk about like, I'm not against WordPress being 00:24:50.749 --> 00:24:53.419 a blog first piece of software. 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:59.940 Um, you know, contrasted to maybe like the thoughts that, that Kevin 00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:04.149 shared about, you know, it, it can't be blog first at, you know, it, it, 00:25:04.150 --> 00:25:08.385 if people are building websites and his point is valid, It was literally 00:25:08.385 --> 00:25:14.340 the same that I've made many, many years ago was we're building websites. 00:25:14.370 --> 00:25:15.720 We need, you know, X, Y, Z. 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:19.660 We're the ones like for, for every me, I'm bringing online a hundred, 00:25:19.670 --> 00:25:22.409 200, 300 WordPress websites. 00:25:22.410 --> 00:25:24.769 Not this one person who struggles with WordPress and 00:25:24.769 --> 00:25:25.909 then gives up on it and leaves. 00:25:25.909 --> 00:25:30.100 Like I'm bringing in at this point now thousands. 00:25:30.340 --> 00:25:34.770 At least a thousand websites over my professional history of helping 00:25:34.770 --> 00:25:36.820 clients launching websites, etc, etc. 00:25:36.850 --> 00:25:40.230 So I get like Kevin's and, you know, to your, to a degree, your 00:25:40.239 --> 00:25:43.159 frustrations, like this should be better for web professionals. 00:25:44.510 --> 00:25:49.220 Putting that aside for a moment, I think from the human level, from a, you know, 00:25:49.220 --> 00:25:55.240 societal level, um, having a piece of software that you can install for free 00:25:55.260 --> 00:25:59.480 and start publishing your words to the internet is much more important. 00:25:59.870 --> 00:26:01.190 In my opinion, right? 00:26:01.340 --> 00:26:06.040 It is literally the anti social network where you can have your own website, 00:26:06.040 --> 00:26:11.420 your own domain name and publish your words, your thoughts for whatever, you 00:26:11.420 --> 00:26:18.750 know, art, hobby, you're in an oppressed, uh, uh, country where you're, you 00:26:18.750 --> 00:26:21.650 know, you need to get these words out and maybe this is your only mechanism 00:26:21.650 --> 00:26:25.080 to do it, you know, I don't know, but it's the idea of being able for humans 00:26:25.080 --> 00:26:27.659 to publish words first and foremost. 00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:27.710 Yeah. 00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:33.670 I'm still 100 percent around that, which is why I always sort of push back on you 00:26:33.670 --> 00:26:40.679 and I say I don't need core WordPress to compete with Bricks because that just 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:45.989 takes the eye off the ball of like the freedom of publishing words for humanity 00:26:46.390 --> 00:26:50.950 and by the way, because it's open source, the third party market system will win. 00:26:51.800 --> 00:26:56.660 That's the, that's the beauty of this chaos that we have is that Bricks can 00:26:56.670 --> 00:27:00.999 step in and say, you know what, I'm, we're going to do it better and let, 00:27:01.109 --> 00:27:04.060 for the website, for the professionals out there, let us serve you. 00:27:04.260 --> 00:27:11.329 And I think that's a perfect balance, um, because publishing words first 00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:12.869 is much more important to me. 00:27:13.524 --> 00:27:17.125 Uh, you know, for my sons to learn how to publish and get their stories 00:27:17.125 --> 00:27:21.754 out and get their words out, not fucking TikTok and, you know, Facebook 00:27:21.754 --> 00:27:27.614 and all this other crap, like, start with your lineage of thoughts and 00:27:27.615 --> 00:27:29.705 expression with your own website. 00:27:30.245 --> 00:27:33.795 That's what I want to see for the entire world, and I think that's what Matt 00:27:33.795 --> 00:27:35.335 wants to see for, with the entire world. 00:27:35.565 --> 00:27:40.390 That's why you'll never see I say never, but that's why you don't see like, 00:27:40.620 --> 00:27:43.350 Oh, we're competing pound for pound with bricks and Elementor and we're 00:27:43.350 --> 00:27:45.120 going to get the shadow box in there. 00:27:45.120 --> 00:27:46.370 You know, it's not going to happen. 00:27:46.390 --> 00:27:50.290 I mean, it, maybe it will eventually, but that's why it's not like that 00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:52.550 same product versus product feel. 00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:57.230 Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I, I see where you're coming with all that. 00:27:57.260 --> 00:28:02.390 I mean, the one thing I would say is again, in their, um, conversation kind of 00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:06.699 moved to somehow I can't really remember exactly to like slightly a page builder. 00:28:07.514 --> 00:28:08.014 Thing. 00:28:08.315 --> 00:28:12.385 And, and said that her ideal world was where the page builders extend and 00:28:12.385 --> 00:28:17.504 build a top core, which I mean, again, that's, I understand where that is. 00:28:17.864 --> 00:28:24.465 But to me, the way I interpret that is that the current page builders 00:28:25.094 --> 00:28:26.475 like don't fit into that mold. 00:28:26.504 --> 00:28:28.205 Now I'm not saying that I'm not saying, I'm not trying 00:28:28.205 --> 00:28:29.075 to put words in Anne's mouth. 00:28:29.075 --> 00:28:29.705 I said it on the call. 00:28:29.705 --> 00:28:34.635 Like I'm, I'm not, I'm not saying that she's saying that they're not going to. 00:28:35.585 --> 00:28:38.365 Be able to be in their page, voters and be outlawed or some shit. 00:28:38.375 --> 00:28:39.115 And that's not what I'm saying. 00:28:39.535 --> 00:28:43.345 But what I am saying is like, that is, that that is absolutely 00:28:43.355 --> 00:28:47.444 different than what I've heard in like kind of speculation type land, 00:28:47.454 --> 00:28:51.655 so to speak of, uh, you know, page builders, like we, you know, whatever. 00:28:51.665 --> 00:28:57.764 And also to your point, like, I'm, I'm conf, I'm just, I'm still confused on 00:28:57.764 --> 00:29:04.300 the whole, like blogging thing and the platform of the, the core of the platform. 00:29:04.830 --> 00:29:08.540 Um, you know, the, the concept of the CMS type stuff came up with advanced 00:29:08.580 --> 00:29:10.150 custom fields and those types of things. 00:29:10.630 --> 00:29:15.119 And I mean, again, if it's, if it's the philosophy of it, then 00:29:15.120 --> 00:29:16.309 you really just have three choices. 00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:19.370 You got to deal with it, you got to move away from it, or I guess maybe 00:29:19.370 --> 00:29:24.180 you can influence it, but the third one's pretty hard, so I don't know. 00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:27.600 I just, I mean, it, it, it, it sounds like. 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:29.570 I don't know. 00:29:29.790 --> 00:29:33.610 I, I feel your, I feel the democratized publishing thing, but I think the 00:29:33.610 --> 00:29:36.400 way people normally are going to take that as like, do they think most webs 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:37.380 and it got brought up in the call. 00:29:37.390 --> 00:29:42.380 It's like, it kind of sounds like that's alluding to like most websites 00:29:42.389 --> 00:29:46.019 are blogs, which that's not really the exact point that's being made there. 00:29:46.350 --> 00:29:49.680 It's the ability to be able to like blog or just share your 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:50.710 stuff like you just mentioned. 00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:52.090 So I mean, I get that. 00:29:52.390 --> 00:29:54.684 Um, but I don't know. 00:29:55.415 --> 00:29:55.765 I don't know. 00:29:55.825 --> 00:29:56.905 Matt: It's just, it's a weird. 00:29:57.655 --> 00:30:00.805 You, you know, 20 years of an open source project. 00:30:01.675 --> 00:30:07.265 You know, it's, if you ever had to like demo a house or like demo a bathroom and, 00:30:07.325 --> 00:30:11.955 and then you, as you start to like demo something that somebody built a bathroom, 00:30:11.955 --> 00:30:16.905 like again, 20 years ago, but you, as you're breaking all that down, you find 00:30:16.905 --> 00:30:19.665 the original bathroom from when the house was like, well, at least where I'm at 00:30:19.665 --> 00:30:23.075 in the, in the Northeast, my house was built in 1930 and then all of a sudden 00:30:23.075 --> 00:30:24.825 it's like, why did they do it this way? 00:30:24.825 --> 00:30:26.055 And then you start, Demoing it. 00:30:26.055 --> 00:30:29.885 And you're like, holy shit, this was the first bathroom underneath this, like, oh 00:30:29.885 --> 00:30:34.675 my God, it's like, this is what this is like that technical debt that is carried. 00:30:34.675 --> 00:30:39.255 And Jorban said that on the call is we would carry the technical debt so that 00:30:39.285 --> 00:30:42.615 the end user wouldn't have to, or I'm paraphrasing what he was saying there. 00:30:42.615 --> 00:30:48.625 But you have this amalgamation, I think that's the right word, where 00:30:48.655 --> 00:30:53.575 of just like years of people like coming up with some concept 15 years 00:30:53.575 --> 00:30:58.405 ago, it was implemented and just by the nature of this thing, not being a 00:30:58.465 --> 00:31:05.085 purely commercial product or a product first thing, it's just there, right? 00:31:05.085 --> 00:31:06.675 You know, like a lot of the stuff that Kevin. 00:31:07.710 --> 00:31:11.780 Rails Against is just the stuff that is never has just hasn't been updated because 00:31:12.210 --> 00:31:14.970 it's just not enough manpower enough time and they're trying to move forward. 00:31:14.970 --> 00:31:19.000 But at the same time there's all this technical debt stuff that's being left 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:22.380 behind and it's, it's just in there and it's still moving forward and like 00:31:22.520 --> 00:31:23.820 they'll get to it when they get to it. 00:31:24.360 --> 00:31:28.740 Um, You know, it's a little bit of an excuse, but it's also the 00:31:28.740 --> 00:31:31.920 nature of like this open source product that we have does, does, 00:31:32.170 --> 00:31:32.440 does 00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:32.600 Matt: it 00:31:32.610 --> 00:31:33.910 have to be like that? 00:31:34.070 --> 00:31:38.350 Does it have to be that in 20 more years, we're not going to rebuild anything. 00:31:38.350 --> 00:31:42.050 We're not going to have a legacy problem product project or anything like that. 00:31:42.300 --> 00:31:44.470 We're not going to have, like, we're going to have in, in, are 00:31:44.470 --> 00:31:46.500 you saying that in 40 years time? 00:31:46.995 --> 00:31:48.775 We're going to have 60 years of technical debt. 00:31:49.485 --> 00:31:51.495 It's a possibility. 00:31:51.925 --> 00:31:54.495 You know, you think that's like a good way to go about things. 00:31:54.495 --> 00:31:56.305 You think it's the only way to go about things? 00:31:56.535 --> 00:32:00.855 Matt: There's how would you ever, you would literally have to rebuild from 00:32:00.855 --> 00:32:08.545 the ground up and maybe, maybe, you know, cause nothing is ever permanent. 00:32:08.555 --> 00:32:14.875 Like maybe there's a WordPress version two that Matt comes out with concept and 00:32:14.875 --> 00:32:16.535 it's like rebuilt from the ground up. 00:32:17.260 --> 00:32:20.350 Do you think we're just too early into like the technical age that 00:32:20.370 --> 00:32:23.100 like we, we were not like, we're not really arriving at this. 00:32:23.100 --> 00:32:24.270 Like for example, Divi. 00:32:24.810 --> 00:32:25.230 Okay. 00:32:25.320 --> 00:32:28.170 From what I understand, Divi five is like a complete rewrite of everything. 00:32:28.370 --> 00:32:31.390 They realized that, Oh shit, this stuff behind here is not, 00:32:31.500 --> 00:32:33.040 is not keeping up anymore. 00:32:33.050 --> 00:32:35.530 It was really good, really innovative for a long time, but now we need to, 00:32:35.560 --> 00:32:39.640 we need to turn this stuff around and like go our next gen, so to speak. 00:32:40.150 --> 00:32:45.435 Do you think that like with something this large, We're just too early in the 00:32:45.435 --> 00:32:49.495 cycle of software that like, certainly there's been gens of stuff, like 00:32:49.495 --> 00:32:55.075 generations of things, but like of a whole platform that like, I understand the 00:32:55.075 --> 00:32:57.265 thought of doing that is scary as shit. 00:32:57.305 --> 00:33:00.585 Like I get that, but I'm saying like, do you think that that is 00:33:01.495 --> 00:33:05.315 actually something that shouldn't be considered because it's just difficult? 00:33:05.475 --> 00:33:09.715 Like, do you think like the, the ends would justify the means of trying to come 00:33:09.715 --> 00:33:14.065 out with a version two that potentially could be still like backwards compatible? 00:33:14.450 --> 00:33:18.210 But, or, or do you think the reason that's not done is because the idea of, and, 00:33:18.210 --> 00:33:21.120 and said these words on the call, like we got to make sure everybody, nobody's left 00:33:21.120 --> 00:33:22.520 behind basically, or something like that. 00:33:22.520 --> 00:33:27.320 Like everybody comes with us, like, is that thought going to persist for the 00:33:27.320 --> 00:33:31.940 next, like 40 years, potentially, if you played it out and that would cause. 00:33:32.570 --> 00:33:33.683 It's a long time. 00:33:33.683 --> 00:33:34.027 I 00:33:34.027 --> 00:33:38.230 Matt: mean, it's a super long time, you know, to, to try to forecast. 00:33:38.610 --> 00:33:43.000 I can tell you that from, if you thought about it from like 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.880 a business or brand perspective. 00:33:46.465 --> 00:33:51.415 What you don't want to do because of the reach of WordPress, literally hundreds of 00:33:51.415 --> 00:33:53.665 millions of websites across the internet. 00:33:53.665 --> 00:33:53.995 Certainly. 00:33:53.995 --> 00:33:54.255 Yeah. 00:33:54.845 --> 00:33:59.415 What you, what you don't want to do is like, be like, you know what, I'm going 00:33:59.415 --> 00:34:00.675 to rewrite this thing and launch it. 00:34:01.465 --> 00:34:01.775 Right. 00:34:01.775 --> 00:34:05.245 Because then like, if you think WordPress has a, has a air quotes, bad 00:34:05.245 --> 00:34:11.520 reputation now, If you literally broke 30, 40, 50 million websites because 00:34:11.520 --> 00:34:13.560 they weren't upgrading or whatever. 00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:17.180 Now it's like, Oh man, that's a huge, massive risk. 00:34:17.770 --> 00:34:23.100 And technically, and I'm not a developer and I certainly was not involved in any 00:34:23.100 --> 00:34:27.640 of these discussions and I, my terminology stuff ends with the words I'm about to 00:34:27.640 --> 00:34:32.870 use, but it's technically going through a rewrite now, which is why it's so chaotic 00:34:33.210 --> 00:34:35.250 because when you get into the game. 00:34:36.170 --> 00:34:39.250 We were just getting out, we were just getting into JavaScript. 00:34:39.720 --> 00:34:43.520 Heavily in WordPress, which is all like Gutenberg, huge debates of 00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:47.570 like, which framework react, uh, you know, what, what are we doing? 00:34:47.570 --> 00:34:48.530 We're gonna create something new. 00:34:48.660 --> 00:34:51.160 We're gonna pull in this framework, uh, for JavaScript. 00:34:51.490 --> 00:34:55.020 And then that's why Matt said you need to learn JavaScript deeply, which was 00:34:55.020 --> 00:34:59.060 like a whole thing that rippled across like the developer community because 00:34:59.060 --> 00:35:00.060 they were like, what the hell is this? 00:35:00.090 --> 00:35:02.850 The JavaScript, um, because largely up until this point, 00:35:02.900 --> 00:35:05.550 it was just HTML, PHP, CSS. 00:35:05.630 --> 00:35:06.370 That's all you need to know. 00:35:06.370 --> 00:35:06.434 Yeah. 00:35:06.645 --> 00:35:06.945 Right? 00:35:07.215 --> 00:35:11.275 Largely, and then all of a sudden, like with the dawn of Gutenberg, it was like, 00:35:11.565 --> 00:35:13.515 okay, we can't rewrite all of WordPress. 00:35:13.655 --> 00:35:17.235 So what we can do, and again, this is my non developer, is we can 00:35:17.235 --> 00:35:21.295 just plop on this JavaScript stuff and build a whole new experience. 00:35:21.635 --> 00:35:27.490 And maybe, the tide turns where, You know, I don't 90 percent 00:35:27.490 --> 00:35:28.680 of WordPress is JavaScript. 00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:31.950 I mean, you know, no idea if that's even possible, but maybe the tide 00:35:31.950 --> 00:35:35.740 is turning where it becomes purely JavaScript or some other technology 00:35:35.740 --> 00:35:40.210 that JavaScript evolves into or maybe PHP and MySQL evolves into, right? 00:35:40.220 --> 00:35:44.670 These, these tech stacks are really what, Held WordPress to 00:35:44.670 --> 00:35:47.360 what it was for many, many years. 00:35:47.530 --> 00:35:51.360 That's why you get like the real cutting edge developers are like PHP 00:35:51.980 --> 00:35:53.490 and they laugh at it and they move on. 00:35:54.150 --> 00:35:57.030 Um, you know, it might've been an episode you were doing with somebody 00:35:57.030 --> 00:36:00.910 else and, uh, or I was on an episode, I can't even remember, but they're like, 00:36:00.950 --> 00:36:03.509 Hey, when you're hiring engineers, no one's out there looking at. 00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:05.370 Oh yeah, I want to be a PHP engineer. 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:06.430 No one's looking at that anymore. 00:36:07.110 --> 00:36:07.350 Right. 00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:07.940 They're moving on. 00:36:07.940 --> 00:36:12.110 They're like AI, uh, or some like mobile stack or whatever. 00:36:12.150 --> 00:36:16.140 Like they're looking at PHP as like this old antiquated thing, but it's 00:36:16.140 --> 00:36:20.430 stable and still powers a lot of, um, you know, obviously important 00:36:21.260 --> 00:36:22.680 projects like, like WordPress. 00:36:23.250 --> 00:36:26.900 Um, so I think we're like seeing it actively being redeveloped, 00:36:27.630 --> 00:36:30.650 um, you know, right in front of our eyes with, with Gutenberg. 00:36:31.340 --> 00:36:36.620 And, um, you know, I think that's where Anne was, was getting at is that 00:36:36.620 --> 00:36:40.030 sort of, uh, across the aisle with other page builders is, is the same. 00:36:40.340 --> 00:36:43.550 And let's, let's remember she's, she's great, but she's also an automatician. 00:36:43.550 --> 00:36:49.910 And part of that ethos is you want Gutenberg to succeed and, and you have 00:36:49.910 --> 00:36:51.350 those probably the same points of views. 00:36:51.350 --> 00:36:57.145 If I were to label Anna, Matt Mullenweg, Lieutenant, um, you're having those 00:36:57.145 --> 00:37:00.525 same thought processes as Matt is like, well, if you want to give back 00:37:00.525 --> 00:37:04.095 to this experience, page builders, don't build your own experience, 00:37:04.505 --> 00:37:06.555 build on top of Gutenberg, right? 00:37:06.585 --> 00:37:08.745 So it's very easy for a Divi to be like, Oh, we're going to rewrite. 00:37:08.745 --> 00:37:09.305 Yeah, no kidding. 00:37:09.305 --> 00:37:12.225 Because you don't have to worry about WordPress, the whole 00:37:12.225 --> 00:37:15.485 like user registration system, post pages, custom fields. 00:37:15.495 --> 00:37:17.605 That's all, it's all, it's handed to you. 00:37:17.715 --> 00:37:19.095 And then you build on top of it. 00:37:19.815 --> 00:37:23.425 Um, So, you know, it's easy for these third party tools to, to 00:37:23.435 --> 00:37:27.515 re to rewrite and have those, you know, change their experience all 00:37:27.515 --> 00:37:28.995 around or their efficiencies around. 00:37:29.395 --> 00:37:32.415 Um, but they're also taking advantage of the core of WordPress. 00:37:33.545 --> 00:37:36.955 I think there's, I don't know how deep I want to go into this. 00:37:36.965 --> 00:37:41.325 Like, I feel like I need to like study like 16 other open source projects to see 00:37:41.325 --> 00:37:47.835 how they Work, but I would not do anything else after, if I did that, uh, because 00:37:47.935 --> 00:37:53.115 it takes too much time, like, I'm just, like, I feel like, um, still a lot of 00:37:53.125 --> 00:37:57.145 people, a lot of the, like the speculation of the gripes still come from, and these, 00:37:57.155 --> 00:38:01.615 again, these calls have been fantastic at communicating more of it, but I still 00:38:01.615 --> 00:38:07.325 feel that there's, there's still a lot of, uh, demystifying that we still need to do 00:38:07.325 --> 00:38:09.424 with like how automatic and WordPress are. 00:38:09.965 --> 00:38:11.375 And I know you love automatic. 00:38:11.375 --> 00:38:16.335 So like, I mean, you know, like the, like that, that part of it to me is 00:38:17.135 --> 00:38:22.445 there's just such a, like a weird, it's not really like a conflict of interest. 00:38:22.445 --> 00:38:26.785 Cause it's all trying to go the same way, but it's just a weird situation 00:38:26.785 --> 00:38:29.544 where I'm just still not clear on it. 00:38:29.545 --> 00:38:31.935 And without the clarity, I feel like I can't have a good 00:38:32.755 --> 00:38:37.555 opinion on it or can't even like diagnose, like what I think about. 00:38:38.935 --> 00:38:40.135 Parts of it, because 00:38:42.215 --> 00:38:46.615 you have one philosophy that's for like the open source project, but 00:38:46.615 --> 00:38:50.715 then you have, because automatic is so heavily influenced on it, right? 00:38:50.925 --> 00:38:57.025 There's got to be pieces of that that are slightly construed in a way. 00:38:57.555 --> 00:39:01.235 It's I don't, I don't know how to exactly formulate it right now. 00:39:01.275 --> 00:39:02.315 It's just no, but even 00:39:02.315 --> 00:39:04.165 Matt: 20 year veterans haven't right? 00:39:04.165 --> 00:39:06.915 And this is that sort of shared 00:39:10.380 --> 00:39:13.530 It's like that shared chaos and opportunity, right? 00:39:13.530 --> 00:39:20.010 So it's, I think I made a, an example to you once, like you can go out to 00:39:20.010 --> 00:39:23.460 lunch and if you go out to lunch and you talk about your business, you can 00:39:23.460 --> 00:39:25.310 swipe your business credit card, right? 00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:25.880 Loosely. 00:39:25.950 --> 00:39:28.650 And if you, if you don't, then it's like, Oh, I like, or maybe 00:39:28.650 --> 00:39:29.670 you pay for your golf, right? 00:39:29.700 --> 00:39:32.490 Oh, but you brought a client out with you so you can pay for his great golf round. 00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:34.740 Uh, but if you're just going out, you're going to the local muni and 00:39:34.740 --> 00:39:36.720 you just say, I'm not paying, it's not going on the company, but I'm 00:39:36.720 --> 00:39:37.910 certainly not paying top dollar for it. 00:39:39.585 --> 00:39:40.405 Matt and Autumn Matt. 00:39:40.405 --> 00:39:44.905 So the biggest issue, and this is what everybody just has to openly understand 00:39:44.955 --> 00:39:50.325 and admit, is Matt is the biggest variable who sits on both sides of this. 00:39:50.995 --> 00:39:55.780 And you simply just have to, like, Understand that, that it is confusing 00:39:55.790 --> 00:40:01.110 because he, he does run automatic and he started the WordPress foundation and he 00:40:01.110 --> 00:40:02.700 started WordPress, open source WordPress. 00:40:02.930 --> 00:40:04.080 He loves WordPress. 00:40:04.460 --> 00:40:07.730 It has grown so large that he realized that there's an opportunity 00:40:07.730 --> 00:40:11.780 here to keep it, to, to keep it survive, uh, surviving and thriving. 00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:15.170 He needed a commercial entity and that's where automatic was born. 00:40:16.030 --> 00:40:19.160 You don't, you just have to fast forward 20 years and, and, you know, did he 00:40:19.160 --> 00:40:21.150 ever realize it'd be worth billions? 00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:22.290 Probably not. 00:40:22.630 --> 00:40:25.720 Um, did we all know how the tech landscape was going to evolve and 00:40:25.730 --> 00:40:29.480 values and, and, and what the value of a tech company would be years on? 00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:32.550 Did he know he's going to get 180 million from Salesforce? 00:40:32.560 --> 00:40:32.900 No. 00:40:33.580 --> 00:40:35.840 And all the other millions of dollars invested into automatic 00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:36.990 as a privately held company? 00:40:37.020 --> 00:40:37.320 No. 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:39.190 Uh, but this is where we're at. 00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:44.600 And the, uh, he treats it just like that credit card swipe at lunch, where. 00:40:45.170 --> 00:40:49.760 He on one half of his brain, he's giving back to open source where 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.990 it's like, I, he is, he's going to keep WordPress surviving. 00:40:53.990 --> 00:40:57.500 Cause I know he wants open source WordPress to survive. 00:40:58.020 --> 00:41:03.390 And then he'll just have his commercial side where he will eventually say the 00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:07.880 best thing here, uh, the best thing for WordPress is over here at wordpress. 00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:09.610 com or jetpack or automatic. 00:41:10.250 --> 00:41:12.750 And, and that's how he's, he has to straddle that line. 00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:13.840 That's why it is confusing. 00:41:14.670 --> 00:41:17.830 It's like, I think, I think a lot of veterans understand that 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.530 and we're just like, Hey, we're still benefiting regardless. 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:23.140 Like, we're done looking for the answer because literally the 00:41:23.140 --> 00:41:24.270 answer is right in front of us. 00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:28.490 Uh, it's just, it's not, it's just not really talked about 00:41:28.490 --> 00:41:30.190 or, or cleanly talked about. 00:41:30.610 --> 00:41:31.520 But we, we've seen it. 00:41:31.560 --> 00:41:33.340 We've seen all of the examples. 00:41:34.020 --> 00:41:38.630 Um, You know, and I think that you, I think I said this in the last episode 00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:42.130 we recorded, like we got to be careful what you wish for because if, if people 00:41:42.130 --> 00:41:46.530 are like, we need something better, faster than it's going to be, would 00:41:46.530 --> 00:41:50.300 it be a, a vert, a brand new version of WordPress straight from automatic? 00:41:50.690 --> 00:41:51.470 How would you like that? 00:41:52.200 --> 00:41:53.620 Like, how would the world react to that? 00:41:53.630 --> 00:41:58.680 If all of a sudden he was building a better, faster WordPress at automatic, 00:41:59.420 --> 00:42:00.659 but you had to pay five bucks for it. 00:42:02.850 --> 00:42:03.140 Right? 00:42:03.860 --> 00:42:06.090 I, I, you know, I know you've said that before, but I'm kind 00:42:06.090 --> 00:42:08.550 of confused on that example. 00:42:08.640 --> 00:42:10.270 Because like, I don't know how that's Because a lot of people 00:42:10.270 --> 00:42:10.990 Matt: give pressure. 00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:14.260 This is why he snaps, snapped in the past, and it's why he's like, 00:42:14.260 --> 00:42:18.850 sabbatical, and in my opinion, he's getting a little bit more defeated on 00:42:18.850 --> 00:42:23.040 the, on the social pressure, having seen him evolve over the many years. 00:42:23.870 --> 00:42:28.290 Because I think a lot of people keep demanding things, and I'm, I'm 00:42:28.290 --> 00:42:30.030 being like, hypothetical obviously. 00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:30.290 But. 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:32.350 Automatic needs to make money. 00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:33.920 It needs to survive. 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:36.640 Uh, or there's going to be more investors and more pressure 00:42:36.640 --> 00:42:38.090 for him on the investor side. 00:42:38.190 --> 00:42:39.270 So he has to make money. 00:42:39.350 --> 00:42:40.170 That's what WordPress. 00:42:40.170 --> 00:42:40.600 com is. 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:43.810 That's what VIP, VIP is. 00:42:44.100 --> 00:42:45.110 That's what Jetpack is. 00:42:45.290 --> 00:42:47.160 Those are the means, and some other products. 00:42:47.370 --> 00:42:49.400 Those are the biggest means of him making money. 00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:54.949 But eventually, it's like, can he make enough money to have 00:42:54.950 --> 00:42:56.300 Automatic survive that way? 00:42:57.030 --> 00:43:00.865 Or, You know, with all of this pressure, people are like, you need a 00:43:00.865 --> 00:43:02.885 better WordPress, it sucks, it needs to compete with all these things. 00:43:02.955 --> 00:43:06.525 Okay, maybe he builds it, and he sells it, from automatic. 00:43:06.995 --> 00:43:08.085 How would we feel? 00:43:08.885 --> 00:43:09.835 How would we feel? 00:43:10.295 --> 00:43:10.435 We 00:43:10.435 --> 00:43:11.845 Matt: would probably be like, well that sucks. 00:43:12.335 --> 00:43:14.195 We're saying that's not an open, that wouldn't be an open 00:43:14.195 --> 00:43:15.255 source project at that point. 00:43:15.255 --> 00:43:15.894 No, that's what I'm telling you. 00:43:15.895 --> 00:43:16.665 Yeah, because, 00:43:16.935 --> 00:43:17.615 Matt: because that's what I'm saying. 00:43:17.615 --> 00:43:19.745 That's, that's why I keep saying we have to be careful what we 00:43:19.745 --> 00:43:21.495 wish for, when we pressure. 00:43:22.150 --> 00:43:27.200 Specifically matte and automatic because that could, because that is a, that 00:43:27.200 --> 00:43:29.810 is literally what red hat Linux does. 00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:31.560 That's what Ubuntu does. 00:43:31.570 --> 00:43:36.130 Like there are commercial grades of their software, which are not purely open 00:43:36.130 --> 00:43:38.480 source and not downloadable for free. 00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:41.410 You have to spend, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars. 00:43:41.410 --> 00:43:41.485 Right. 00:43:41.485 --> 00:43:44.990 And that's not the only, there's a lot of other open source software 00:43:44.990 --> 00:43:46.320 out there that operates at that. 00:43:46.610 --> 00:43:49.725 Um, So you have to be careful what you wish for. 00:43:50.085 --> 00:43:51.405 I wanna play devil's advocate though. 00:43:51.405 --> 00:43:51.915 'cause like, 00:43:54.925 --> 00:44:00.295 I don't, I, I just feel like, would you, would you pay for Word would, if WordPress 00:44:00.295 --> 00:44:01.615 didn't change, would you pay for it? 00:44:02.245 --> 00:44:05.665 Like if WordPress, if he, if he didn't make a better thing, like for instance, 00:44:05.665 --> 00:44:10.165 like if you just took WordPress, it's no longer open source, it's it's proprietary, 00:44:10.165 --> 00:44:11.845 commercial, whatever in its current form. 00:44:11.845 --> 00:44:15.415 Would you pay for that in its current form? 00:44:16.225 --> 00:44:17.725 Yeah, I mean, I would. 00:44:19.415 --> 00:44:19.835 Okay. 00:44:20.895 --> 00:44:21.225 I would. 00:44:21.265 --> 00:44:22.715 So why wouldn't you pay for it if it was better? 00:44:24.075 --> 00:44:24.405 Matt: I would. 00:44:24.405 --> 00:44:25.135 Because it's not open source? 00:44:25.515 --> 00:44:27.485 I would, but I think a lot of people wouldn't. 00:44:27.515 --> 00:44:28.225 That's the thing. 00:44:28.725 --> 00:44:32.004 I think a lot of people would all of a sudden be like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. 00:44:32.005 --> 00:44:33.975 You want to charge me for these features too? 00:44:33.985 --> 00:44:36.825 I mean, we already see it in the commercial, in the 00:44:36.825 --> 00:44:37.955 commercial plug in space. 00:44:38.505 --> 00:44:41.205 When people start, either raise their prices, or they start, they 00:44:41.205 --> 00:44:43.995 charge more money, or I can't believe how much that plug in is. 00:44:44.015 --> 00:44:45.205 Like, we hear it with Elementor. 00:44:45.345 --> 00:44:48.740 And I, I heard Kevin on one of his live streams Um, which is one of 00:44:48.740 --> 00:44:51.370 the, the, I don't want to say the few things I agree with, but I certainly 00:44:51.370 --> 00:44:52.980 was like, yes, 100 percent Kevin. 00:44:53.120 --> 00:44:56.200 When he was like, people are complaining about Elementor prices regardless 00:44:56.200 --> 00:44:57.480 of what you think of the software. 00:44:58.650 --> 00:45:02.620 Uh, for whatever the price is, 50 bucks, 60 bucks, or Yeah, it's ridiculously 00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:03.140 cheap. 00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:05.129 Right, for 300 bucks for 100 websites? 00:45:05.130 --> 00:45:05.370 Yeah. 00:45:05.520 --> 00:45:07.420 Matt: Yeah, and he's just like, you're out of your mind. 00:45:07.430 --> 00:45:09.990 Like, that's nothing compared to what you're charging your clients. 00:45:10.550 --> 00:45:11.460 Uh, but I think Which you should be 00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:12.170 charging your clients. 00:45:12.590 --> 00:45:14.060 Matt: Or which you should be charging your clients. 00:45:14.070 --> 00:45:15.920 So, yeah, I mean, I think that. 00:45:16.910 --> 00:45:23.610 There's a world where you will see, could see, where you go to work, like WordPress. 00:45:23.610 --> 00:45:28.370 org is the best experiences to download WordPress powered 00:45:28.370 --> 00:45:29.690 by Jetpack from WordPress. 00:45:29.690 --> 00:45:33.730 com as the big banner that you click on and you get this premium 00:45:33.730 --> 00:45:37.250 experience that you paid five bucks for or maybe it just gets associated 00:45:37.250 --> 00:45:39.625 to a, A hosting account at wordpress. 00:45:39.625 --> 00:45:43.725 com and then, then the fine print below that is get wordpress. 00:45:43.725 --> 00:45:46.515 org for free or get the open source version of wordpress for free. 00:45:47.135 --> 00:45:49.715 Cause that's how a lot of open source and free software works. 00:45:50.285 --> 00:45:51.525 Super limited features. 00:45:51.525 --> 00:45:54.505 I mean look at your favorite sass app that you, that you don't pay for. 00:45:54.695 --> 00:45:55.575 Right, like a MailChimp. 00:45:55.645 --> 00:45:56.435 Very simple. 00:45:56.495 --> 00:45:57.535 The guardrail is there. 00:45:57.825 --> 00:45:59.865 12, 000 subscribers, 2, 000 emails a month. 00:46:01.315 --> 00:46:03.035 Or whatever the number is, right? 00:46:03.065 --> 00:46:04.955 And you hit that limit, and then you have to pay. 00:46:05.845 --> 00:46:08.245 Like, you could see that in a WordPress world. 00:46:08.305 --> 00:46:10.735 Maybe not that harshly, but why not? 00:46:11.115 --> 00:46:12.025 And he's already doing it. 00:46:12.065 --> 00:46:18.855 Like, Jetpack already has a bunch of pretty nice features, and the rollout 00:46:18.865 --> 00:46:22.095 the experience of a better way to experience WordPress is with Jetpack. 00:46:25.605 --> 00:46:25.985 Hmm. 00:46:27.215 --> 00:46:29.405 Matt: So, I mean, that's, like, that's not on the table. 00:46:29.405 --> 00:46:33.730 I'm just saying, like, when we pressure him a lot, like, You don't know what's 00:46:33.730 --> 00:46:35.250 going to happen as him as an individual. 00:46:35.250 --> 00:46:39.100 He's so impactful on this software and this community that he could 00:46:39.100 --> 00:46:41.860 just make a decision to be like, you know what, for profitability to keep 00:46:41.860 --> 00:46:44.130 automatic going in defense of wordpress. 00:46:44.130 --> 00:46:49.180 org open source, I need another revenue stream and now five bucks a 00:46:49.180 --> 00:46:51.700 website or a buck a website, you know. 00:46:53.050 --> 00:46:55.860 I think we need to, I think you need to talk to him or somebody needs to talk 00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:56.130 to him. 00:46:56.290 --> 00:46:58.190 And you see it with real questions, 00:46:58.420 --> 00:47:00.090 Matt: with a kiss, with a kismet, right? 00:47:00.090 --> 00:47:02.720 Which is another one of their products, which is the spam protection. 00:47:03.170 --> 00:47:07.720 It's like you are either using it on a free site and you just, you say 00:47:07.720 --> 00:47:09.150 it's free non commercial website. 00:47:09.220 --> 00:47:11.470 But if you're doing a bunch of traffic, they get notified 00:47:11.990 --> 00:47:13.240 and they look at your website. 00:47:13.330 --> 00:47:14.520 Is this a commercial thing? 00:47:14.790 --> 00:47:16.670 You need to pay for a kismet. 00:47:17.120 --> 00:47:19.750 And I actually just saw a blog post, someone. 00:47:21.005 --> 00:47:24.565 Might have been on my Macedon account where they got notified by Jetpack 00:47:24.575 --> 00:47:29.175 that they were running free stats and free stats on a commercial 00:47:29.175 --> 00:47:31.915 site and their stats got shut down. 00:47:32.115 --> 00:47:35.485 Um, or Jetpack reached out and said, you have to pay for the stats if 00:47:35.485 --> 00:47:36.615 you want to continue to use this. 00:47:39.395 --> 00:47:40.185 It's a business model. 00:47:42.305 --> 00:47:44.735 Uh, so are we, are we in favor of that? 00:47:44.735 --> 00:47:45.745 Are we not in favor of that? 00:47:46.005 --> 00:47:48.975 Matt: No, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just giving out, uh, an 00:47:48.975 --> 00:47:50.375 example of what could happen. 00:47:50.925 --> 00:47:56.995 Because what, and I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is it's like, we're, we have 00:47:56.995 --> 00:48:06.815 a good thing in my opinion and, um, like constantly beating it up for like another 00:48:06.815 --> 00:48:13.695 feature or to like compete with a, a Wix or a Webflow is, is, is not the right 00:48:13.705 --> 00:48:17.715 discussion in my opinion, just my opinion. 00:48:18.815 --> 00:48:19.115 Hmm. 00:48:20.945 --> 00:48:23.315 Yeah, I mean, I don't know. 00:48:23.315 --> 00:48:30.185 Do you, do you, uh, how do you feel about the sentiment of, do you think, 00:48:30.235 --> 00:48:34.815 do you think, I mean, are you worried at all about like the future of WordPress? 00:48:36.335 --> 00:48:37.855 I'm not worried about it, but 00:48:38.775 --> 00:48:40.925 Matt: yeah, no, I mean, I'm not worried about it. 00:48:40.925 --> 00:48:42.585 Like Kevin is worried about it. 00:48:42.995 --> 00:48:46.395 But I'm not in the agency space anymore, but I am at obviously at 00:48:46.395 --> 00:48:50.635 gravity forms and there's nothing like indicating to me that, um, that 00:48:50.635 --> 00:48:52.515 WordPress still isn't a great choice. 00:48:53.115 --> 00:48:57.985 Um, for, for, you know, for all the reasons is that the third, literally 00:48:57.985 --> 00:49:02.145 the third party ecosystem, like the third party ecosystem is still there. 00:49:02.145 --> 00:49:03.605 Like gravity forms is still there. 00:49:04.065 --> 00:49:05.965 Page builders are still doing their thing. 00:49:06.285 --> 00:49:09.475 Countless, countless other, um, stop you for a second though. 00:49:09.825 --> 00:49:10.015 Yeah. 00:49:10.885 --> 00:49:11.435 Is that. 00:49:12.570 --> 00:49:17.590 I'm not going to use the word business model, but how, if you were like, if you 00:49:17.590 --> 00:49:22.680 were looking at something and a thing, okay, a platform and you, and the first 00:49:22.680 --> 00:49:27.730 thing that you bring up is the third party add ons, the ecosystem of that third 00:49:27.730 --> 00:49:33.470 party, surely that's heavily weighted, but is that, is that not in and of itself 00:49:33.520 --> 00:49:37.030 like a slight concern that that's like one of the first things you bring up 00:49:37.140 --> 00:49:38.310 and the first things that come to mind? 00:49:39.005 --> 00:49:40.075 That like the actual I 00:49:40.075 --> 00:49:42.075 Matt: was skipping the open source part of WordPress, but 00:49:42.455 --> 00:49:45.995 that's well certainly that's like absolutely I mean, that's yeah number one. 00:49:46.465 --> 00:49:52.715 Yeah, but I Don't know I mean and okay, well because we have the alternative 00:49:54.165 --> 00:49:57.865 Well, there's a ton of alternatives But it's but it's not like we're not 00:49:58.145 --> 00:50:01.795 the problem with this this stuff is we're all in it and and none of us are 00:50:01.805 --> 00:50:09.140 having a conversation Wait, it's like we all say We all ask these questions 00:50:09.140 --> 00:50:10.370 and we talk about these things, right? 00:50:10.750 --> 00:50:13.960 We, we, we feel we're on the platform. 00:50:13.990 --> 00:50:15.910 We feel it's the best option, 00:50:16.270 --> 00:50:16.530 Matt: right? 00:50:16.620 --> 00:50:20.500 You know, like we, like we sort of knowing what's the best option. 00:50:20.500 --> 00:50:22.390 We are like 99 percent there. 00:50:22.410 --> 00:50:23.410 Like we're not moving. 00:50:23.410 --> 00:50:29.350 We're, we're, we're in it, but like it's the conversation isn't even about us. 00:50:29.900 --> 00:50:30.620 It's about. 00:50:31.165 --> 00:50:34.755 The seven other billion people like, I mean, less than that or whatever, 00:50:34.755 --> 00:50:37.885 but like the seven other billion people that aren't in this stuff that 00:50:37.885 --> 00:50:39.195 we're not talking to all the time. 00:50:39.605 --> 00:50:42.025 And then like I was talking to Kevin today, like, like on the live stream, 00:50:42.025 --> 00:50:46.585 it's like, that's the question is like, are those people, how do we like tell 00:50:46.585 --> 00:50:50.605 those people and how do we, how do we communicate to those people that like 00:50:50.945 --> 00:50:53.405 this, you could do everything here. 00:50:53.985 --> 00:50:57.435 Like you could do it all here if you wanted to, because it's 00:50:57.435 --> 00:50:58.785 that robust, it's that versatile. 00:50:58.785 --> 00:50:58.815 Yeah. 00:50:59.185 --> 00:51:02.045 But they're not seeing it because I use this example. 00:51:02.045 --> 00:51:05.365 I've said in the live stream today I talked to my buddy on the golf course. 00:51:05.365 --> 00:51:05.945 I'm like, yeah. 00:51:06.035 --> 00:51:09.275 Yeah, you know, I make content on the wordpress Wordpress land. 00:51:09.275 --> 00:51:10.025 He's like wordpress. 00:51:10.025 --> 00:51:10.765 I thought that was dead. 00:51:11.015 --> 00:51:12.435 I'm like, oh, you know what wix is though? 00:51:12.435 --> 00:51:12.895 Don't you he's like? 00:51:12.895 --> 00:51:13.655 Oh, yeah, 100. 00:51:13.655 --> 00:51:14.255 I see it all the time. 00:51:14.605 --> 00:51:20.675 So like I mean, I know it's not marketable in that sense of like marketing 00:51:20.675 --> 00:51:24.820 dollars and stuff like that But I don't know Is there an answer for that? 00:51:24.830 --> 00:51:26.690 Is it even worth being concerned about? 00:51:26.720 --> 00:51:30.500 Does it end up leading to a situation it's like a death by a thousand cuts type 00:51:30.500 --> 00:51:34.800 thing where it's not just, yeah, obviously Webflow isn't going to spring up tomorrow 00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:37.840 and take 50 percent of the share, but 00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:38.770 Matt: I don't know. 00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:42.320 I mean, I think if it were that bad, you would have way more people going, 00:51:42.540 --> 00:51:45.370 going to these other platforms, like go to those other platforms and 00:51:45.370 --> 00:51:46.830 build something for, for a customer. 00:51:47.100 --> 00:51:49.090 I was just on a call with my buddy yesterday. 00:51:49.090 --> 00:51:50.730 He's on like his fourth startup. 00:51:51.120 --> 00:51:52.700 Um, none of them have been home runs yet. 00:51:53.040 --> 00:51:56.060 Uh, but he's trying to build a, uh, a SaaS based business for, 00:51:56.100 --> 00:51:59.990 uh, enterprise, like medical and enterprise payments and messaging. 00:52:00.100 --> 00:52:02.010 And he's like, Oh, check out my pricing page. 00:52:02.010 --> 00:52:02.310 I'm building. 00:52:02.310 --> 00:52:03.220 He's building it in Wix. 00:52:03.680 --> 00:52:03.900 Right. 00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:04.750 And that's fine, man. 00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:05.220 It's like, whatever. 00:52:05.390 --> 00:52:08.070 Like, if that's what, if that's what you're, if that's what you're using, 00:52:08.380 --> 00:52:12.590 Brendan O'Connell, um, brought up a question during Kevin's live stream today. 00:52:12.590 --> 00:52:14.000 It was like, Oh, has anybody tried statimic? 00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:15.360 Yeah, I tried statimic. 00:52:15.810 --> 00:52:16.620 It's, it's cool. 00:52:16.740 --> 00:52:19.200 It's like cool to have like this static website builder and you're 00:52:19.200 --> 00:52:21.560 like, oh yeah, all of a sudden you're like, this is great. 00:52:21.560 --> 00:52:24.510 Like I build it and it's super fast and hey, it's got this cool editor, 00:52:24.690 --> 00:52:29.300 but then you're like, ah, I need a form or like, oh, like I want to change 00:52:29.300 --> 00:52:32.010 the, I want to put my logo in and change the header and the navigation. 00:52:32.040 --> 00:52:36.510 And instantly you will appreciate the chaos that you have, even 00:52:36.510 --> 00:52:37.660 with full site editing to be like. 00:52:38.040 --> 00:52:41.560 Holy shit, I can't even edit my navigation in this thing without opening up 00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:42.560 a text editor. 00:52:42.620 --> 00:52:43.590 I got another one for you. 00:52:43.830 --> 00:52:44.000 Okay. 00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:44.160 Yeah. 00:52:45.260 --> 00:52:47.015 I got another one for you. 00:52:47.015 --> 00:52:50.880 You and I appreciate the chaos. 00:52:51.270 --> 00:52:51.520 Matt: Yeah. 00:52:52.220 --> 00:52:53.420 We know the chaos. 00:52:53.900 --> 00:52:54.230 Sure. 00:52:54.650 --> 00:52:57.909 How many more people do you think it's, do you think it's sustainable? 00:52:57.910 --> 00:52:59.060 I already have the answer to this. 00:53:00.020 --> 00:53:01.050 Well, I'm going to finish the question. 00:53:01.070 --> 00:53:01.290 Yeah. 00:53:01.460 --> 00:53:02.550 Do you think it's sustainable? 00:53:03.120 --> 00:53:04.610 Do you think it's sustainable? 00:53:05.785 --> 00:53:07.515 To expect more people to 00:53:07.515 --> 00:53:10.425 Matt: voluntarily wade into the sea of chaos. 00:53:10.875 --> 00:53:13.865 This is not a website building platform, like you're thinking. 00:53:14.115 --> 00:53:15.415 This is a blogging platform. 00:53:16.500 --> 00:53:17.260 That's the answer. 00:53:17.510 --> 00:53:19.590 Elaborate on whatever you just said. 00:53:19.590 --> 00:53:21.770 What is this? 00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:22.983 What is this? 00:53:22.983 --> 00:53:24.230 Is this is like right here. 00:53:24.230 --> 00:53:27.770 I've got the, I still have the philosophy page, uh, up for 00:53:27.770 --> 00:53:29.580 me designed for the majority. 00:53:29.660 --> 00:53:32.030 Many of the end users of WordPress are non technically minded. 00:53:32.030 --> 00:53:33.250 They don't know what Ajax is in order. 00:53:33.250 --> 00:53:34.660 They care about the version of PHP they're using. 00:53:34.660 --> 00:53:37.200 The average user WordPress simply wants to be able to write without 00:53:37.200 --> 00:53:38.110 problems or interruptions. 00:53:38.120 --> 00:53:41.120 Now we can obviously make the case, like how fast can somebody do that? 00:53:41.420 --> 00:53:43.470 But these things, WordPress. 00:53:43.865 --> 00:53:46.995 the lack of features, a lack of options. 00:53:47.005 --> 00:53:47.535 Yes. 00:53:47.575 --> 00:53:52.725 It's a resource and maybe a vision thing, but it's also, it's 00:53:52.735 --> 00:53:57.285 not being built for you, me and the Kevin Geary's of the world. 00:53:57.545 --> 00:54:01.995 You, me and the Kevin Geary's of the world will deal with the chaos and figure 00:54:01.995 --> 00:54:04.385 out a workflow to sell it to customers. 00:54:05.075 --> 00:54:05.915 That's what we do. 00:54:06.795 --> 00:54:12.825 This WordPress core itself is made for the person to start a website, start a blog. 00:54:13.135 --> 00:54:15.875 without any costs besides your hosting. 00:54:16.795 --> 00:54:19.375 That's the, that is the building a website. 00:54:20.165 --> 00:54:21.435 This is not the vision. 00:54:21.635 --> 00:54:26.665 I know it's, it's weird to hear it, but building a website, like having 00:54:26.665 --> 00:54:30.105 a toolbox of things to build scalable websites, that's not the vision. 00:54:30.865 --> 00:54:31.965 It's democratized publishing. 00:54:33.765 --> 00:54:34.515 That's what it is. 00:54:34.565 --> 00:54:34.775 Yeah. 00:54:34.775 --> 00:54:40.065 You got a page and a post, but you know, and, and users, because Hey, you might 00:54:40.075 --> 00:54:42.255 have a buddy who also wants to write. 00:54:43.475 --> 00:54:47.795 aren't sports articles, or you might have a community of people who are trying 00:54:47.795 --> 00:54:52.015 to tell the world that their water is being poisoned by some corporation. 00:54:53.675 --> 00:54:57.305 That's what this is for is for publishing those words, whether it's entertainment 00:54:57.305 --> 00:55:00.135 or humanity impacting events. 00:55:00.795 --> 00:55:01.425 That's what it is. 00:55:01.435 --> 00:55:02.875 It's not about building a website. 00:55:03.075 --> 00:55:06.135 We're building nice little features like full Gutenberg 00:55:06.325 --> 00:55:08.335 to make that experience better. 00:55:09.145 --> 00:55:09.645 And sure. 00:55:09.645 --> 00:55:10.825 Does Matt want to compete with Wix? 00:55:10.855 --> 00:55:11.205 Yeah. 00:55:11.205 --> 00:55:11.269 Yeah. 00:55:11.740 --> 00:55:14.780 But the essence is about publishing and democratizing pub, 00:55:14.860 --> 00:55:16.520 uh, democratizing publishing. 00:55:17.210 --> 00:55:17.700 That's the answer. 00:55:17.700 --> 00:55:21.080 It's never going to be about you and me and Kevin and my friends and your friends. 00:55:23.900 --> 00:55:25.130 Uh, okay. 00:55:25.260 --> 00:55:26.980 I mean, if that's, if that's the case, I mean, 00:55:27.910 --> 00:55:30.440 Matt: again, that's my opinion, but that's my opinion. 00:55:30.440 --> 00:55:31.410 That's your interpretation. 00:55:32.110 --> 00:55:32.450 Yeah. 00:55:32.770 --> 00:55:33.570 Over the last 15 00:55:33.570 --> 00:55:33.830 Matt: years. 00:55:34.110 --> 00:55:36.620 I would love to hear that directly, but I mean, I don't 00:55:36.620 --> 00:55:37.630 disagree with what you're saying. 00:55:37.630 --> 00:55:39.530 I do think that's still, we make the. 00:55:40.105 --> 00:55:42.655 We've got to make the clarification that isn't our interpretation, 00:55:42.655 --> 00:55:44.485 but it's logically founded. 00:55:44.555 --> 00:55:48.545 So, I would love to, I would love to, have you ask him 00:55:48.545 --> 00:55:49.915 that, or somebody ask him that? 00:55:49.915 --> 00:55:51.945 I don't know, I'll ask him, I don't give a shit, but like, I mean, 00:55:51.955 --> 00:55:54.805 Matt: Really, you just go back the last, just go back the last three 00:55:54.805 --> 00:55:57.755 or four years of, of WordCamps. 00:55:58.205 --> 00:56:00.355 Uh, not WordCamp, sorry, uh, State of the Words. 00:56:01.195 --> 00:56:02.915 Right, those are largely all recorded. 00:56:03.375 --> 00:56:05.015 I mean, those State of the Words, WordCamps. 00:56:05.015 --> 00:56:09.485 org Which, by the way, I got invited to as part of the media core, can't go because 00:56:09.485 --> 00:56:12.175 I can't drop like 18, 000 to go to Japan. 00:56:12.885 --> 00:56:14.935 Come on, dude, just look in your couch cushions. 00:56:15.335 --> 00:56:21.205 Uh, but, uh, you just gotta go back and watch those, those moments in 00:56:21.205 --> 00:56:27.245 time, um, of, of the way that Matt is presenting and, and packaging WordPress. 00:56:27.385 --> 00:56:28.525 That, those are your answers. 00:56:30.325 --> 00:56:30.565 Hmm. 00:56:30.565 --> 00:56:30.644 Yeah. 00:56:32.215 --> 00:56:32.535 Yeah. 00:56:32.635 --> 00:56:34.355 I mean, I guess it checks out. 00:56:34.645 --> 00:56:38.935 Uh, it's, I don't know if it's like, I feel like it's kind of a shame that 00:56:38.935 --> 00:56:40.945 that's not at all what I've ever heard. 00:56:41.585 --> 00:56:47.535 Um, it's kind of been like co opted, not in a malicious way, but just like 00:56:47.545 --> 00:56:51.185 because of the, because of the nature of it and how it's been extended, 00:56:51.185 --> 00:56:55.515 it's, it's extremely, we're extremely fortunate, but it's not at all. 00:56:56.775 --> 00:56:57.495 It's so weird. 00:56:57.495 --> 00:56:57.685 If you 00:56:57.685 --> 00:57:00.015 Matt: all went to Wix or Squarespace, you would be. 00:57:01.185 --> 00:57:03.595 Rattling the same cages that you're doing in WordPress. 00:57:04.115 --> 00:57:04.735 I'd imagine. 00:57:05.965 --> 00:57:06.405 Yeah, 00:57:06.405 --> 00:57:10.475 Matt: but No, I mean I'm not saying You don't, you think 00:57:10.475 --> 00:57:11.815 it's got the complete package? 00:57:11.815 --> 00:57:13.805 You're gonna go there and it's gonna do everything you want it to do? 00:57:15.115 --> 00:57:16.355 It doesn't. 00:57:17.595 --> 00:57:18.385 It doesn't. 00:57:19.695 --> 00:57:21.865 But I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to formulate this. 00:57:21.925 --> 00:57:23.195 It doesn't have that. 00:57:25.095 --> 00:57:27.715 But what is the goal of those platforms? 00:57:28.745 --> 00:57:29.395 Those are website 00:57:29.395 --> 00:57:29.825 Matt: builders. 00:57:30.265 --> 00:57:37.070 Pure and Okay, so like that's my, that's my slight weirdness to this is that I am, 00:57:38.520 --> 00:57:40.430 I'm investing my time, energy, whatever. 00:57:40.430 --> 00:57:41.970 I'm not saying I'm not, I'm not saying I'm changing. 00:57:41.980 --> 00:57:44.520 I'm just saying like, that's the fundamental prop. 00:57:44.540 --> 00:57:48.370 That's the fundamental mind fuck with like people when they talk 00:57:48.380 --> 00:57:50.850 about this is that we have a goal. 00:57:50.850 --> 00:57:53.990 I mean, the literal reason that you would critique WordPress for any reason 00:57:53.990 --> 00:57:56.850 is that you don't agree with like the goal or the vision or the feature or 00:57:56.850 --> 00:57:57.790 whatever the hell you're talking about. 00:57:57.830 --> 00:57:58.090 Right. 00:57:58.450 --> 00:58:06.005 And it's like, the problem is that the, the, The, the goal of WordPress is not the 00:58:06.005 --> 00:58:09.145 same goal as XYZ that is critiquing it. 00:58:09.155 --> 00:58:11.645 Like again, we're talking about Kevin a lot because the live stream 00:58:11.645 --> 00:58:12.895 is today and it's been a whirlwind. 00:58:12.895 --> 00:58:18.545 I mean, in that thing he said to me directly, people, like not, not every, 00:58:18.585 --> 00:58:21.715 not anyone can build a website, period. 00:58:21.725 --> 00:58:23.545 And I, and I slightly pushed back on him. 00:58:23.545 --> 00:58:24.275 I was like, wait a second. 00:58:24.665 --> 00:58:27.065 Are you saying that you don't want anyone building websites? 00:58:27.065 --> 00:58:27.066 Right? 00:58:27.066 --> 00:58:27.100 I remember. 00:58:27.105 --> 00:58:30.365 Are you saying you don't think anybody can build websites or are you saying that not 00:58:30.365 --> 00:58:32.165 everyone can build a professional website? 00:58:32.435 --> 00:58:34.205 'cause that's a very big distinction right there. 00:58:34.475 --> 00:58:34.685 Matt: Right. 00:58:34.715 --> 00:58:38.255 And it's a larger conversation and I'm of the opinion that like, I 00:58:38.255 --> 00:58:39.335 think everyone should have a website. 00:58:39.335 --> 00:58:42.815 I think you should probably get professional like assistance if you're 00:58:42.820 --> 00:58:44.016 trying to do other things, da da. 00:58:44.045 --> 00:58:45.065 We can have a bigger conversation there. 00:58:45.305 --> 00:58:50.645 But at the core of that, that is really what you are interpreting to me. 00:58:50.675 --> 00:58:52.385 And what we pretty much know now is. 00:58:52.875 --> 00:58:56.615 The, the messaging of WordPress and the actual goal of it is that anyone 00:58:56.615 --> 00:58:59.375 can have, we'll say a blog, right? 00:58:59.375 --> 00:59:02.185 Anyone should be able to make a blog, which is valid, which is admirable. 00:59:02.245 --> 00:59:02.705 That's great. 00:59:02.755 --> 00:59:03.275 Great goal. 00:59:03.625 --> 00:59:10.755 But the problem is that being the goal of this platform and then us, I 00:59:10.755 --> 00:59:13.465 say us as in just like anybody that's building websites professionally 00:59:13.465 --> 00:59:17.325 or anybody like has that mindset of that is not really the same thing. 00:59:17.990 --> 00:59:21.140 Because it kind of, it just doesn't mesh perfectly. 00:59:21.330 --> 00:59:25.090 There's some overlap, but then there's not enough over, like there is a 00:59:25.090 --> 00:59:28.430 lot of overlap, but then it doesn't, it doesn't end up funneling down to 00:59:28.430 --> 00:59:32.650 the point where it's like, Oh, we're just going to like, is a blogging 00:59:32.680 --> 00:59:34.370 platform at the very core of it. 00:59:34.380 --> 00:59:35.460 Anybody can build a blog. 00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:37.180 Anybody can democratize publishing. 00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:39.570 It's not an actual website builder. 00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:44.010 And then we look at, Oh, we look across the fence here and we see these other ones 00:59:44.010 --> 00:59:45.890 that are like, Oh, they are doing exactly. 00:59:46.570 --> 00:59:47.920 They're listening to us. 00:59:48.255 --> 00:59:50.995 You know, people like us, they're doing exactly that. 00:59:51.195 --> 00:59:53.625 Now there are four pro, there's a lot of other pros and cons like 00:59:53.625 --> 00:59:57.055 everything in life, but they're actually listening to people like us. 00:59:57.365 --> 01:00:01.845 And that's where like, do you, do you, what ends up happening? 01:00:01.845 --> 01:00:03.265 If that plays out like that? 01:00:03.685 --> 01:00:06.395 Do you have like an, any, any sort of an exodus? 01:00:06.555 --> 01:00:09.245 Probably not because you could still do whatever I guess over here, but 01:00:09.255 --> 01:00:15.555 do you have some sort of an exodus where WordPress is for anyone, right? 01:00:15.685 --> 01:00:16.745 So it's like, Oh, that's great. 01:00:16.745 --> 01:00:18.765 I can start up a blog for free and everything like that. 01:00:20.250 --> 01:00:21.770 I'm going to contradict everything I just said there. 01:00:21.770 --> 01:00:22.900 I'm going to kick it back to you. 01:00:23.930 --> 01:00:26.090 Do you think that that even still happens? 01:00:27.870 --> 01:00:31.920 Do you think that there's a large, a large swath of people in 2024 01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:33.120 that find out about WordPress? 01:00:33.130 --> 01:00:36.640 This, I have a real, real strong, like opinion just from 01:00:36.640 --> 01:00:37.490 my interpretation on this. 01:00:37.730 --> 01:00:40.630 Do you think there's a large swath of people in 2024 01:00:40.990 --> 01:00:42.950 that are, Oh, I want a blog. 01:00:42.990 --> 01:00:44.090 I'm going to start with WordPress. 01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:47.320 I like, this is the, this is the actual root of the problem though. 01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:49.890 I don't think that actually occurs and I don't have any numbers. 01:00:50.335 --> 01:00:55.015 But we, but we know according to sources, I don't know, we have, we should get 01:00:55.015 --> 01:00:58.615 better data that the number of WordPress websites being created is going down. 01:00:59.675 --> 01:01:03.585 So if it's for everybody, but not everyone's using it because are we not, 01:01:03.625 --> 01:01:05.005 are we not still having an issue here? 01:01:05.055 --> 01:01:06.915 I mean, I, I'm, yeah, 01:01:06.915 --> 01:01:07.895 Matt: I mean, I don't know. 01:01:07.895 --> 01:01:13.925 I saw those, I saw those reports and I can neither confirm nor deny if WordPress 01:01:13.935 --> 01:01:18.845 is, is going down and at what level, uh, falling through the floor, uh, or just 01:01:18.845 --> 01:01:20.735 like losing a few feathers here and there. 01:01:21.145 --> 01:01:26.015 Um, I also, we should also say that like, again, we're in the mindset 01:01:26.025 --> 01:01:28.125 of web designers, tech people. 01:01:28.265 --> 01:01:29.485 So we see it differently. 01:01:29.505 --> 01:01:31.625 We're actually selling these services to customers. 01:01:31.625 --> 01:01:35.705 So we have those strong opinions and we're in the U S so there's, 01:01:35.765 --> 01:01:41.835 uh, there's much more, you know, whatever, uh, capitalism behind this. 01:01:42.325 --> 01:01:44.215 People are like, Hey man, I'll just buy a Wix site. 01:01:44.215 --> 01:01:45.945 I'll just go and get up, send them to Webflow. 01:01:45.945 --> 01:01:51.535 And the rest of the world may not have that, uh, Level of, of luxury, which 01:01:51.535 --> 01:01:56.725 is why, like when I, um, uh, did my interview with a Manuel from, uh, the 01:01:56.765 --> 01:02:02.345 Nigeria WordPress Nigeria, you know, that, I mean, his number was like 60 01:02:02.345 --> 01:02:03.645 percent of the country runs on WordPress. 01:02:03.685 --> 01:02:03.895 Why? 01:02:03.895 --> 01:02:05.935 Because it's free and they can get access to it. 01:02:06.505 --> 01:02:07.699 It's also important to know. 01:02:08.640 --> 01:02:13.780 that there's different levels of where people can come in and out of WordPress. 01:02:14.090 --> 01:02:18.110 So it's like, yeah, you could go and start, uh, your Wix blog, but then 01:02:18.110 --> 01:02:21.600 you mean like, yeah, you know what, I don't, I don't, I don't really want 01:02:21.600 --> 01:02:22.710 to pay for this anymore or whatever. 01:02:22.710 --> 01:02:25.070 And I'll, and I'll switch to something that's, uh, you know, blue host 01:02:25.070 --> 01:02:26.010 account for three bucks a month. 01:02:26.010 --> 01:02:27.230 And I just want to have this little blog. 01:02:27.240 --> 01:02:28.550 I just want to get some poetry out. 01:02:28.690 --> 01:02:29.500 That's what I want to do. 01:02:29.740 --> 01:02:30.850 So you switched to WordPress. 01:02:31.390 --> 01:02:34.279 Um, and WordPress is also like, you know, 01:02:36.750 --> 01:02:40.380 That simplicity of starting with a blog, a lot of people laugh, laugh it off. 01:02:40.420 --> 01:02:42.470 But I think it's very important. 01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:46.090 Because if one day you're like, I want to start a blog or a website. 01:02:46.490 --> 01:02:50.630 You have this open source tool, this free tool that you can just learn with. 01:02:51.600 --> 01:02:53.260 There's no, I don't have to pay for this. 01:02:53.630 --> 01:02:54.420 You can go to playground. 01:02:54.420 --> 01:02:54.460 wordpress. 01:02:55.040 --> 01:02:57.040 net or download the free WordPress app. 01:02:57.565 --> 01:02:59.145 And just literally start learning this. 01:02:59.395 --> 01:03:04.505 Whether you're 8 years old or 80 years old, this is a, to me, again, this is just 01:03:04.515 --> 01:03:09.755 my own opinion, my love of the software, is because you can unpack it, learn it, 01:03:10.035 --> 01:03:12.295 and that's just like, what's a domain? 01:03:12.595 --> 01:03:15.335 Like, you have to put yourself back in like the real infancy stage of 01:03:15.335 --> 01:03:16.615 like, somebody wants to start a blog. 01:03:16.795 --> 01:03:18.345 They learn what a domain is. 01:03:18.885 --> 01:03:20.305 That's like step one of the internet. 01:03:20.715 --> 01:03:21.875 How do I register a domain? 01:03:22.025 --> 01:03:22.975 What's this hosting thing? 01:03:23.305 --> 01:03:24.885 This is what it, this is what WordPress is. 01:03:24.945 --> 01:03:27.145 Oh, WordPress is this app that runs on my hosting account. 01:03:27.405 --> 01:03:28.195 There's a database. 01:03:28.195 --> 01:03:30.345 I may not understand it, but there's a database and there's files. 01:03:30.535 --> 01:03:34.895 And somebody's starting to quick, slowly learn technology and 01:03:34.895 --> 01:03:36.695 software and how the web works. 01:03:36.935 --> 01:03:38.055 And that's a big thing. 01:03:38.365 --> 01:03:40.695 You know, versus just go to Wix and it's just like, oh, it's all right here. 01:03:40.735 --> 01:03:41.045 Click. 01:03:41.135 --> 01:03:41.515 Buy it. 01:03:41.705 --> 01:03:42.315 I don't know what the fuck. 01:03:42.315 --> 01:03:43.335 I don't know what it's running. 01:03:43.910 --> 01:03:48.110 You know, I mean, it's, I think it's a, it's an enabler to so many 01:03:48.110 --> 01:03:51.410 different paths of life WordPress is. 01:03:51.440 --> 01:03:55.550 I know I'm getting a little romantic about it, but that's literally how 01:03:55.580 --> 01:03:57.550 I learned the web was unpacking. 01:03:57.550 --> 01:04:00.600 It wasn't WordPress, but it was PHP, Nuke, and then it was Drupal. 01:04:00.610 --> 01:04:01.470 And then it was WordPress. 01:04:01.740 --> 01:04:04.460 But the idea was, is all this open source software. 01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:08.750 Uh, and Linux to how to run a server with Apache learned, uh, learned it 01:04:08.750 --> 01:04:12.220 all by reading a book, a physical book that I bought at Barnes and Nobles and 01:04:12.220 --> 01:04:13.270 how to put all this stuff together. 01:04:13.950 --> 01:04:14.230 Right. 01:04:14.240 --> 01:04:19.380 So it was that open source software that was allowed me to learn and enhance, 01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:23.750 you know, my, my skillset and do the fun stuff like publish, build websites. 01:04:24.020 --> 01:04:28.020 So it's, it's, it's something that is, you, you can't discount and just 01:04:28.020 --> 01:04:29.060 be like, ah, just this blog thing. 01:04:29.060 --> 01:04:30.750 It's a, it's, it is a lot more than that. 01:04:31.410 --> 01:04:31.930 I'm laughing 01:04:31.930 --> 01:04:32.790 at my next question. 01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:33.120 Okay. 01:04:33.130 --> 01:04:33.150 So 01:04:37.495 --> 01:04:38.705 Matt: All makes, all makes sense. 01:04:38.715 --> 01:04:39.495 It's all checking out. 01:04:39.905 --> 01:04:42.865 Hey, you think I defend WordPress so much, I'd be the head of WordPress YouTube. 01:04:44.885 --> 01:04:47.975 You like, are you, we have a, do we have a mind link going on here? 01:04:48.415 --> 01:04:48.835 Is there a link? 01:04:49.285 --> 01:04:50.675 We've been talking way too much. 01:04:50.725 --> 01:04:52.105 We've been sending way too many voice memos. 01:04:52.475 --> 01:04:55.895 Um, don't steal my questions out of my mouth before I send. 01:04:56.335 --> 01:05:00.855 Do you, okay, so I have a, I have a pre, pre, I gotta prime the question though. 01:05:01.135 --> 01:05:07.655 Do you think that WordPress as a platform On a scale of one to 10, 10 01:05:07.655 --> 01:05:09.175 being really good, one being terrible. 01:05:09.655 --> 01:05:14.885 How do you feel that it ranks on gaining new users in general, but 01:05:14.885 --> 01:05:18.815 I'm more so talking like next gen users, like, like younger gen. 01:05:19.245 --> 01:05:19.415 Yeah. 01:05:19.415 --> 01:05:22.675 And I know you, you, you put out this poll and it, but, and we could just stay 01:05:22.675 --> 01:05:23.915 on high level here, but like, what do you 01:05:23.915 --> 01:05:24.305 Matt: think there? 01:05:24.335 --> 01:05:26.405 Yeah, no, that is a legit concern. 01:05:26.995 --> 01:05:27.305 Okay. 01:05:27.315 --> 01:05:32.285 Um, it's a legit concern because of more so on the younger side, I think. 01:05:32.745 --> 01:05:33.065 Well, 01:05:35.765 --> 01:05:39.905 It's the younger crowd who are developing and finding interest in WordPress, the 01:05:39.905 --> 01:05:41.475 community, and WordPress as software. 01:05:41.645 --> 01:05:44.095 And then there's the younger crowd who actually like, are users, end 01:05:44.095 --> 01:05:45.265 users, and why they should use this. 01:05:45.525 --> 01:05:48.895 You have social media, who's just like, consuming content. 01:05:49.235 --> 01:05:49.765 Again. 01:05:50.325 --> 01:05:54.415 Why it's important that WordPress focuses on being a publishing platform? 01:05:54.985 --> 01:05:57.965 Because the reckoning of social media, I believe, is still yet to happen. 01:05:58.375 --> 01:06:02.885 Um, so, very important that you can have a, an app that you can quickly install 01:06:02.915 --> 01:06:07.195 and start quickly publishing content on the web, not wrapped in a social 01:06:07.555 --> 01:06:09.555 walled garden behind an algorithm. 01:06:10.605 --> 01:06:13.095 On the technical side, why isn't there adoption? 01:06:13.095 --> 01:06:18.170 Pfft, you know, Yeah, PHP, JavaScript, HTML, nobody wants it, right? 01:06:18.170 --> 01:06:19.200 They want more advanced stuff. 01:06:19.520 --> 01:06:21.890 That, there is, we do have that issue. 01:06:22.510 --> 01:06:25.480 We do have that issue of getting new people on. 01:06:27.140 --> 01:06:30.770 But, you know, I'm not a statistician, but I think, you know, if we're this 01:06:30.780 --> 01:06:36.680 big, you know, does that inertia continue to, do we continue to grow? 01:06:36.920 --> 01:06:41.125 Um, When we're this big already and like, what would happen if 01:06:41.125 --> 01:06:44.225 we really shrunk would be, you know, would things really change? 01:06:44.235 --> 01:06:45.215 You know, I don't, I don't know. 01:06:45.685 --> 01:06:46.135 Um, 01:06:48.155 --> 01:06:48.495 that's what I got. 01:06:48.595 --> 01:06:51.815 Obviously, obviously what I'm about to say is kind of like a gross generalization, 01:06:51.815 --> 01:06:59.830 but I feel like you have like an, a crazy optimistic outlook on people like, 01:06:59.890 --> 01:07:02.940 like, like, like it's like when I, what, the way that I interpret what you just 01:07:02.940 --> 01:07:06.930 said is there that like, you think that somehow, and maybe this is true, I'm just 01:07:06.930 --> 01:07:10.210 saying like, but what I'm interpreting is you think that somehow people are 01:07:10.210 --> 01:07:15.450 going to be more willing to spin up hosting or even just go to wordpress. 01:07:15.450 --> 01:07:23.430 com and like start a blog than they are to go onto like tick tock Instagram medium. 01:07:23.790 --> 01:07:26.980 Like do you actually think that that's the direction we're going to swing 01:07:26.980 --> 01:07:27.710 Matt: back that way? 01:07:28.640 --> 01:07:35.790 I think eventually the, you know, I think eventually somebody gets savvy 01:07:35.790 --> 01:07:38.730 to the fact that their content is all disappearing on social media. 01:07:39.030 --> 01:07:41.700 If, if you're talking about like, Hey, this would be a content creator. 01:07:41.700 --> 01:07:42.500 I mean, I don't disagree with 01:07:42.500 --> 01:07:42.620 you. 01:07:42.640 --> 01:07:44.600 I don't disagree with you obviously, but I'm here with you. 01:07:44.610 --> 01:07:45.250 You know what I mean? 01:07:45.300 --> 01:07:47.410 Like I don't, I don't, that's an interesting question. 01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:50.120 It's a side topic, but, but okay. 01:07:50.120 --> 01:07:54.680 So, um, So I was priming that with the sense of like, if you, if you do think 01:07:54.680 --> 01:07:58.070 that that's a legit concern and you are at all concerned about the fact that 01:07:58.070 --> 01:08:02.930 next gen and like new users and stuff like that, do you, I would, I feel like 01:08:02.930 --> 01:08:07.900 we would both agree that YouTube is at least a very prime watering hole that 01:08:07.900 --> 01:08:11.240 we need to capitalize on, so to speak. 01:08:11.380 --> 01:08:11.660 Yep. 01:08:11.700 --> 01:08:11.990 Right. 01:08:12.660 --> 01:08:13.140 So. 01:08:13.755 --> 01:08:18.305 Like, do you think you could go as deep or as shallow as you want with 01:08:18.305 --> 01:08:21.525 this question, but like, do you think, like, what do you think Jamie as the, 01:08:21.555 --> 01:08:25.465 as the head of WordPress, YouTube now, or anybody in that space, like, what 01:08:25.465 --> 01:08:27.205 do you think needs to happen there? 01:08:27.635 --> 01:08:32.315 Or like, what, what, like, how, how do we turn, turn that around, so to 01:08:32.315 --> 01:08:35.605 speak, or like, or just capitalize and leverage on those types of things? 01:08:35.605 --> 01:08:38.715 Like, what is the, is there even, what can we even do? 01:08:38.895 --> 01:08:39.395 Like, I don't know. 01:08:39.895 --> 01:08:42.235 Matt: Uh, so. 01:08:43.140 --> 01:08:46.690 First thing is, is like, I don't know a head of anything in WordPress, 01:08:46.690 --> 01:08:49.880 uh, an automatic, it's a new title. 01:08:49.980 --> 01:08:51.779 It's a new title. 01:08:51.780 --> 01:08:55.730 It is a very opinionated, uh, title to be the head of. 01:08:56.160 --> 01:08:59.500 Um, that was interesting, you know, to see that, um, 01:09:01.530 --> 01:09:06.660 a lot of thoughts around it, uh, you know, for the same reasons why marketing 01:09:06.670 --> 01:09:10.530 and the marketing team at, at wordpress. 01:09:10.530 --> 01:09:10.850 org. 01:09:11.665 --> 01:09:16.575 Struggled so much is that you weren't going to get the data of like wordpress. 01:09:16.575 --> 01:09:21.145 org to an untrusted volunteer. 01:09:21.955 --> 01:09:25.835 And by untrusted I mean like, yeah, like somebody who has access to that 01:09:25.835 --> 01:09:29.545 data could get compromised accidentally. 01:09:29.905 --> 01:09:31.465 And all of a sudden like all the wordpress. 01:09:31.465 --> 01:09:32.375 org data is out there. 01:09:32.385 --> 01:09:35.705 Like traffic, keywords, you know, top performing pages. 01:09:35.705 --> 01:09:39.275 Like talk about immense value of that data. 01:09:39.955 --> 01:09:43.385 Um, How can you do a marketing job like that? 01:09:44.265 --> 01:09:47.555 How can you do a marketing job when you don't have access to the 01:09:47.565 --> 01:09:51.175 primary WordPress, uh, Twitter account or social media accounts? 01:09:51.415 --> 01:09:52.695 There's a huge trust factor there. 01:09:54.195 --> 01:09:57.775 But suddenly we're just going to like give the, those like take that same 01:09:57.775 --> 01:10:01.635 risk on the YouTube channel, right? 01:10:01.635 --> 01:10:06.795 Because in my opinion, yeah, like what we're doing, very important. 01:10:07.335 --> 01:10:10.600 Um, As somebody who's been doing it primarily audio 01:10:10.610 --> 01:10:13.170 for 15 years, 14, 15 years. 01:10:13.870 --> 01:10:14.230 Yeah. 01:10:14.470 --> 01:10:16.370 YouTube and video still outperforms audio. 01:10:16.480 --> 01:10:19.680 Unfortunately, I have my reasons for continuing to do audio. 01:10:20.080 --> 01:10:23.050 Um, for the same reasons why I think blogging is important because if YouTube 01:10:23.050 --> 01:10:25.080 changes shit, then we're all screwed. 01:10:25.410 --> 01:10:31.790 Um, so, but my podcast remains, um, so like giving him like giving someone, uh, 01:10:31.820 --> 01:10:36.510 the access to the YouTube account with that data and that control, that's like. 01:10:37.175 --> 01:10:37.845 It's crazy town. 01:10:38.150 --> 01:10:42.190 You know, in my opinion, um, when, when we just saw what we struggled with, 01:10:42.190 --> 01:10:45.870 with the marketing group for those same concerns, like how do you give somebody 01:10:45.880 --> 01:10:49.670 the ability to be the brand identity and the marketing team of WordPress 01:10:49.860 --> 01:10:52.630 for free with no data, impossible. 01:10:53.060 --> 01:10:53.450 Right. 01:10:53.660 --> 01:10:57.920 You'd either have to like, you'd have to give one thing to make this work. 01:10:58.110 --> 01:11:00.370 They can either have the data and not post anything. 01:11:00.530 --> 01:11:02.310 They could post everything, not have data. 01:11:02.620 --> 01:11:02.890 All right. 01:11:02.890 --> 01:11:05.130 But now you're like, they're the face of WordPress, but you're, 01:11:05.160 --> 01:11:06.170 but you don't have any data. 01:11:06.910 --> 01:11:09.050 Now somebody's going to be the face of WordPress. 01:11:09.650 --> 01:11:15.410 If, if it's just, uh, stamp repeat what Jamie does on his own personal 01:11:15.410 --> 01:11:19.330 channel, which is be the face of his channel, training people on WordPress. 01:11:19.350 --> 01:11:23.360 Now suddenly, somebody's going to be the face of WordPress, which is 01:11:23.360 --> 01:11:26.540 what I had said maybe on another episode with you, was the biggest 01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:29.460 lacking feature of, uh, WordPress. 01:11:29.470 --> 01:11:32.240 com competing with Wix, or Shopify, or Squarespace. 01:11:32.410 --> 01:11:34.310 When you look at their messaging and stuff, there's no human 01:11:34.310 --> 01:11:35.120 there, it's just WordPress. 01:11:36.165 --> 01:11:37.235 Come here because it's WordPress. 01:11:37.445 --> 01:11:41.595 There is no human part of that organization representing the 01:11:41.595 --> 01:11:42.685 cool software that we have. 01:11:43.085 --> 01:11:43.365 Okay. 01:11:43.365 --> 01:11:43.705 Back up though. 01:11:43.705 --> 01:11:46.930 Now it's going to suddenly going to be Jamie. 01:11:46.930 --> 01:11:51.947 Are you, are you simultaneously saying it's, it's going to be Jamie, but also 01:11:51.947 --> 01:11:54.814 kind of saying that it should be somebody. 01:11:55.865 --> 01:11:59.955 Like we need a face, but like, you're not sure how this happened. 01:12:00.575 --> 01:12:01.895 Matt: Well, listen, and 01:12:01.895 --> 01:12:03.355 also, also timeout, we got to stop. 01:12:03.355 --> 01:12:04.515 This just happened. 01:12:04.515 --> 01:12:06.815 So we don't actually know what the actual thing is. 01:12:07.025 --> 01:12:08.985 Like, we don't know what it's going to manifest into. 01:12:08.985 --> 01:12:11.385 You might just be like telling people to make videos or something like 01:12:11.865 --> 01:12:13.555 separate conversation sort of, but, 01:12:13.925 --> 01:12:14.645 Matt: but sorry, go ahead. 01:12:15.015 --> 01:12:15.255 Yeah. 01:12:15.565 --> 01:12:20.555 So again, this is, this is that gray area. 01:12:20.925 --> 01:12:23.045 One foot in commercial land, wordpress. 01:12:23.045 --> 01:12:24.315 com one foot in wordpress. 01:12:24.315 --> 01:12:24.595 org. 01:12:25.160 --> 01:12:25.970 Open source land. 01:12:27.370 --> 01:12:30.690 How do you represent somebody? 01:12:31.170 --> 01:12:33.060 Uh, how do you represent the open source? 01:12:33.600 --> 01:12:36.130 Um, We all know it works in content marketing. 01:12:36.470 --> 01:12:40.950 Personal stories, human interaction, YouTube, podcast, right? 01:12:40.950 --> 01:12:44.470 Human, a human representing this, the emotions, everything. 01:12:45.080 --> 01:12:47.990 So, yes, the answer is we need somebody to do that for wordpress. 01:12:47.990 --> 01:12:48.280 org. 01:12:48.400 --> 01:12:50.620 We need people to do that for wordpress. 01:12:50.620 --> 01:12:50.880 org. 01:12:51.090 --> 01:12:51.910 Not just one. 01:12:52.810 --> 01:12:57.150 Not just one, we need many people across the community to represent that. 01:12:57.210 --> 01:13:00.620 That's why I think what Anne's doing, the Olive Branch, the Media Corps, 01:13:01.170 --> 01:13:04.950 taking podcasters, bloggers, YouTubers, newsletter people, getting them 01:13:04.950 --> 01:13:09.570 together, as long as they're sharing our content, and it's this reciprocal 01:13:09.570 --> 01:13:11.239 effect, then it makes sense to me. 01:13:12.300 --> 01:13:16.060 So the WordPress YouTube would be great if it's you, me, everyone, everyone who wants 01:13:16.060 --> 01:13:20.850 to, you know, maybe there's obviously, uh, checks and balances and it doesn't just 01:13:20.850 --> 01:13:25.210 get published right away, but there's a theme of the month and, you know, video 01:13:25.210 --> 01:13:27.030 creators are, are putting out content. 01:13:27.980 --> 01:13:33.240 Because to just give it to one person is, is, is a, a deep rooted issue across a lot 01:13:33.240 --> 01:13:35.580 of the stuff in, in open source WordPress. 01:13:35.580 --> 01:13:40.120 I remember, uh, I was telling you this in slack when Yoast became the 01:13:40.120 --> 01:13:41.870 mark head of marketing for wordpress. 01:13:41.870 --> 01:13:44.590 org and they were like, what the hell, why Yoast? 01:13:44.590 --> 01:13:45.400 He has a plugin. 01:13:45.530 --> 01:13:46.690 It's it, this is when he was still running it. 01:13:46.690 --> 01:13:48.690 And people like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, what's happening here? 01:13:49.040 --> 01:13:51.200 Like this guy's going to be, you know, the head of head of it. 01:13:51.670 --> 01:13:54.390 Um, you know, and, and now. 01:13:56.465 --> 01:14:00.335 You're going to bring somebody on to be the head of, of, of YouTube while 01:14:00.335 --> 01:14:01.965 he still gets a YouTube channel. 01:14:02.275 --> 01:14:02.915 Am I jealous? 01:14:02.925 --> 01:14:05.435 Of course I'm competitive, right? 01:14:05.565 --> 01:14:09.325 In YouTube land, we're all hoping our channels grow and we can, you know, gain 01:14:09.325 --> 01:14:14.215 an audience, but to, for somebody who also is getting paid to do it on wordpress. 01:14:14.215 --> 01:14:15.925 com and now on wordpress. 01:14:15.925 --> 01:14:20.235 org, now you're getting double FaceTime across the WordPress brand. 01:14:20.255 --> 01:14:23.505 And you can still have your own YouTube channel that 01:14:23.505 --> 01:14:24.865 you're, that you've monetized. 01:14:25.935 --> 01:14:26.925 and grow an audience. 01:14:26.955 --> 01:14:32.805 I mean, massive brand recognition to one individual in the, you know, 01:14:32.805 --> 01:14:35.375 zero to a thousand really quick. 01:14:36.185 --> 01:14:40.515 Um, yeah, it's, and it's just that it's just one person. 01:14:40.945 --> 01:14:43.575 Then you look at community WordPress community. 01:14:44.005 --> 01:14:47.915 This isn't the first time in this has happened, but it's like, Was 01:14:47.915 --> 01:14:52.415 there a job opening for that or was it like Jamie at wordpress. 01:14:52.415 --> 01:14:54.425 com saying, Hey, I did some cool videos over here. 01:14:54.425 --> 01:14:56.175 Or Matt said you did some cool videos over here. 01:14:56.395 --> 01:14:58.185 Now you, how about you do that for wordpress. 01:14:58.185 --> 01:14:58.445 org? 01:14:59.295 --> 01:15:00.405 Would I do the same thing as him? 01:15:00.505 --> 01:15:01.105 100%? 01:15:04.025 --> 01:15:04.855 I jump on it too. 01:15:05.775 --> 01:15:12.229 So that's, that's um, something that like I, Okay. 01:15:14.340 --> 01:15:16.000 Correct me, because I don't have the thing pulled up. 01:15:16.070 --> 01:15:17.650 Is it, is it org? 01:15:17.690 --> 01:15:18.860 Is there two YouTube channels? 01:15:18.880 --> 01:15:20.570 Yes, there's com and org. 01:15:21.170 --> 01:15:22.290 So this is for org? 01:15:22.820 --> 01:15:23.190 Matt: Yes, 01:15:23.250 --> 01:15:23.390 but 01:15:23.390 --> 01:15:25.310 Matt: he's also doing stuff for com. 01:15:25.700 --> 01:15:26.360 Gotcha, okay. 01:15:26.360 --> 01:15:31.130 So, but my thing is like, regardless of like, Jamie, let's slightly take 01:15:31.130 --> 01:15:32.820 that out for a second, like him. 01:15:33.170 --> 01:15:34.720 Like, How was that? 01:15:34.740 --> 01:15:36.620 And I should have, maybe I should have asked this on the call, but I 01:15:36.620 --> 01:15:38.510 don't know if we were talking to the right people specifically on the call. 01:15:38.800 --> 01:15:41.540 How does that, how does that decision even get made though? 01:15:41.670 --> 01:15:44.390 Like you're saying, like, you know, like, I don't know, that's a, that's a 01:15:44.390 --> 01:15:49.620 question, you know, if it wasn't open or whatever, but like, I'm not personally, 01:15:49.640 --> 01:15:54.540 I'm not of the mind that like, you have a different opinion on it because you're, 01:15:54.630 --> 01:15:58.900 you're, you have a better understanding of like how the open source side of 01:15:58.900 --> 01:16:00.760 everything has worked, should work. 01:16:01.305 --> 01:16:02.105 Everything like that. 01:16:02.105 --> 01:16:03.755 I'm still fully formulating it. 01:16:04.125 --> 01:16:07.355 So from like an actual like business perspective or just like an opportunity 01:16:07.355 --> 01:16:10.485 perspective like I congratulate him like I don't know if he Asked I don't know if he 01:16:10.485 --> 01:16:12.075 was whatever like whatever happened there. 01:16:12.075 --> 01:16:15.485 That's that's cool but at the same time though It is weird because 01:16:17.615 --> 01:16:20.515 and I mean this was said on the call like it's kind of like uncharted It's 01:16:20.515 --> 01:16:25.695 like an uncharted area of like content First, like sponsoring content, so 01:16:25.695 --> 01:16:29.315 to speak, or like having somebody like be a, uh, like the head of the, 01:16:29.415 --> 01:16:31.085 the content specifically on YouTube. 01:16:31.535 --> 01:16:34.375 So like, I expect them to kind of make some mistakes, but I would hope that 01:16:34.385 --> 01:16:40.875 because it's the open source leg of it, that there would see, you know, you 01:16:40.875 --> 01:16:41.945 can't even make that argument though. 01:16:41.945 --> 01:16:43.755 You can't make that argument. 01:16:43.755 --> 01:16:46.035 You can't make that argument. 01:16:46.065 --> 01:16:46.625 No, you can't. 01:16:46.675 --> 01:16:47.065 You can't. 01:16:47.085 --> 01:16:49.595 I'm learning because you, you, you don't get any fucking say 01:16:49.595 --> 01:16:51.325 in, in what happens in WordPress. 01:16:51.365 --> 01:16:53.305 You don't get any say in what happens in the content. 01:16:54.220 --> 01:16:55.350 I'm actually lost now. 01:16:55.370 --> 01:16:56.570 I literally am lost. 01:16:57.040 --> 01:17:02.270 Matt: Another, here's another example from like themes and plugins. 01:17:03.000 --> 01:17:09.110 You can't sell themes and plugins directly through your theme or plugin if you're 01:17:09.110 --> 01:17:10.440 distributing it through WordPress. 01:17:10.440 --> 01:17:10.720 org. 01:17:10.960 --> 01:17:14.500 In other words, if you made a plugin, put it on WordPress, 01:17:14.510 --> 01:17:16.430 just like Elementor, is free. 01:17:16.960 --> 01:17:19.790 There's no buy now, you can't have a buy now button. 01:17:20.300 --> 01:17:23.960 Inside of Elementor and just boom instantly you've bought the license of 01:17:23.990 --> 01:17:29.440 Elementor it you have to go you have to do The little ads and stuff like that 01:17:29.450 --> 01:17:33.150 Which we've talked about or I've had Elementor on the channel before Talking 01:17:33.150 --> 01:17:37.300 about like the ads and the nag nags for AI and all this stuff so you can do that. 01:17:37.380 --> 01:17:40.930 There's that Gray area of like you can have little call to actions 01:17:41.910 --> 01:17:45.220 Little or big you you decide on how much you want to annoy your users. 01:17:45.640 --> 01:17:48.620 You can't have like that direct monetization I'm sure if you're 01:17:48.620 --> 01:17:53.855 at automatic You can't be making a commercial plug in at the same 01:17:53.855 --> 01:17:55.385 time as working at Automatic. 01:17:56.615 --> 01:17:57.805 Do you know that for a fact? 01:17:58.965 --> 01:18:01.785 I am almost 100 percent sure. 01:18:01.795 --> 01:18:02.395 That's something 01:18:02.395 --> 01:18:04.515 that, that's something would, like, almost like a non compete 01:18:04.515 --> 01:18:06.575 clause or something like that that would be in the contract, right? 01:18:06.575 --> 01:18:08.645 I know, I know you can't, like, for Amazon, for instance, you 01:18:08.645 --> 01:18:09.805 can't be doing anything similar. 01:18:09.865 --> 01:18:10.125 Yeah. 01:18:10.155 --> 01:18:11.605 Okay, I'm just wondering, I'm just wondering, I don't 01:18:11.605 --> 01:18:12.405 know if we know that or not. 01:18:12.405 --> 01:18:12.795 Matt: Right. 01:18:13.065 --> 01:18:15.765 So I guess until these more details come out. 01:18:15.845 --> 01:18:21.255 So, you know, with, with Jamie situation, I look at it, I can only 01:18:21.445 --> 01:18:23.135 act on the information that I have. 01:18:23.315 --> 01:18:25.485 Number one, blog post came out from Josepha. 01:18:25.695 --> 01:18:26.125 Boom. 01:18:26.185 --> 01:18:26.725 There it is. 01:18:27.185 --> 01:18:27.645 Okay. 01:18:28.345 --> 01:18:30.865 There was no like, uh, job description. 01:18:30.865 --> 01:18:31.645 There was no thing. 01:18:31.655 --> 01:18:35.775 There was a little announcement from Jamie on Twitter, whatever, but, 01:18:36.125 --> 01:18:40.695 but I see it as like, well, he's a content creator in automatic now. 01:18:41.465 --> 01:18:43.935 If there's an engineer or developer in automatic right now. 01:18:44.315 --> 01:18:47.625 Can they make a commercial theme or plugin and start selling it on their own site? 01:18:47.995 --> 01:18:51.165 Because he is doing the same thing as a content creator. 01:18:51.535 --> 01:18:55.855 He has a monetized YouTube channel that he monetized through Google ads 01:18:55.895 --> 01:18:57.785 and sells direct sponsorships with. 01:18:58.525 --> 01:18:59.765 To me, it's the same exact thing. 01:19:00.415 --> 01:19:02.395 I'm a developer at automatic and I'm making a plugin. 01:19:02.425 --> 01:19:05.235 I'm selling it on the side or I'm a content creator at automatic 01:19:05.235 --> 01:19:06.415 and I'm monetizing on the side. 01:19:06.435 --> 01:19:07.635 It's the same content. 01:19:07.715 --> 01:19:11.055 I would have to assume because this seems like a theme slightly from 01:19:11.055 --> 01:19:12.385 the phone call that we just had. 01:19:12.690 --> 01:19:17.380 That it's probably a situation where, like, I feel like this is a good idea. 01:19:17.590 --> 01:19:20.010 I'm just talking in generalities here from, like, an automatic 01:19:20.010 --> 01:19:21.560 and, like, a WordPress situation. 01:19:21.890 --> 01:19:24.380 This seems like a good idea, so let's try it. 01:19:24.910 --> 01:19:27.460 Even though we don't have any of the particulars fully set up 01:19:27.460 --> 01:19:30.380 for this particular arrangement. 01:19:30.430 --> 01:19:31.420 I mean, maybe they do. 01:19:31.440 --> 01:19:34.190 I'm just saying, like, from an outside perspective. 01:19:34.840 --> 01:19:37.580 Because the analogy you just brought up does make perfect sense. 01:19:38.750 --> 01:19:40.780 It's whatever to me, but like, I, this is where 01:19:40.780 --> 01:19:42.690 Matt: I, this is where I lose Mark. 01:19:43.920 --> 01:19:46.380 So don't agree with anything I say, because you don't want to 01:19:46.380 --> 01:19:51.360 dig the same grave I've dug, which is to be hypercritical about, uh, 01:19:51.810 --> 01:19:54.990 unfair decision making, right. 01:19:55.010 --> 01:19:59.380 Or non transparent decision making, right. 01:19:59.620 --> 01:20:04.960 Cause I've made a career of, of it, and this is why, this is why, you know, I'm 01:20:04.960 --> 01:20:11.220 not included on, on stuff critical to, uh, the, the core of WordPress, uh, because 01:20:11.440 --> 01:20:17.950 I constantly criticize and, um, but I'm doing it because it should be open, right? 01:20:17.950 --> 01:20:20.380 I was doing this when I was selling themes and plugins. 01:20:20.860 --> 01:20:22.640 I was doing it when I had my agency. 01:20:22.930 --> 01:20:25.180 I'm doing it when I have my podcast, when I had my newsletter. 01:20:25.180 --> 01:20:27.270 Now, when I have my YouTube channel, it's the same thing. 01:20:27.400 --> 01:20:31.310 Why, why, why can't everyone be in the little news widget 01:20:31.380 --> 01:20:32.650 on the WordPress dashboard? 01:20:34.240 --> 01:20:35.480 Question I've been asking for years. 01:20:35.490 --> 01:20:36.950 Somebody said, oh, yeah, you can submit it. 01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:38.280 Yeah, I'm sure I could 01:20:38.990 --> 01:20:39.900 Well, you know you got there's 01:20:39.910 --> 01:20:41.390 Matt: all this like gray area 01:20:41.450 --> 01:20:44.730 Good first thing you got to do is you got to change it from criticism to critique. 01:20:44.740 --> 01:20:47.390 You're start saying well Yes, I've been using that's the first thing a lot more. 01:20:47.400 --> 01:20:52.030 That's the that's the first thing second thing is I Lost it. 01:20:52.140 --> 01:20:52.680 Yeah, I don't know. 01:20:52.730 --> 01:20:54.060 Um, I think 01:20:56.200 --> 01:20:57.890 Matt: So I'll be interested to see if it pans out. 01:20:57.910 --> 01:21:01.700 And I'm sure like, if Jamie's watching this or somebody is watching this an 01:21:01.710 --> 01:21:06.000 hour and 20 in, you know, my chances of being included in that might have gone 01:21:06.000 --> 01:21:10.020 down a smidge, but you know, I would say, look, I've been doing it just as 01:21:10.020 --> 01:21:15.520 long as, uh, anyone else, uh, on, on YouTube since 2010, uh, was my first 01:21:15.520 --> 01:21:17.480 YouTube video covering WordPress stuff. 01:21:17.880 --> 01:21:22.150 And, um, yeah, it'd be great to see if there's going to be, uh, 01:21:22.190 --> 01:21:24.000 a community effort, you know? 01:21:25.365 --> 01:21:29.065 The, the, the, the more and more I talk to like specifically you and 01:21:29.065 --> 01:21:33.095 like other people, the more, the more that I feel like it's just almost an 01:21:33.095 --> 01:21:37.705 impossible situation, all of these things put together, like, it seems 01:21:37.705 --> 01:21:42.035 like, you know, you're, you always come from it from like you're pro 01:21:42.045 --> 01:21:45.795 WordPress, you're pro open source and. 01:21:46.290 --> 01:21:49.000 You're incredibly consistent in that thinking. 01:21:49.810 --> 01:21:53.540 And I don't want to say it's like to a fault, but it's like, it's that, I 01:21:53.540 --> 01:21:58.680 don't know how that actually ends up materializing in almost the utopian way 01:21:59.740 --> 01:22:01.590 that I just, I literally don't know. 01:22:01.610 --> 01:22:05.730 Like we have a, we have a, a goddamn platform called WordPress and then we 01:22:05.730 --> 01:22:08.640 have a commercial entity called wordpress. 01:22:08.640 --> 01:22:08.910 com. 01:22:08.920 --> 01:22:12.490 Like just there, that was probably the worst decision. 01:22:12.740 --> 01:22:15.420 Maybe not worst is the best way to describe that, but that is probably the 01:22:15.420 --> 01:22:17.740 most confusing decision I have ever seen. 01:22:17.750 --> 01:22:18.050 Smartest 01:22:18.230 --> 01:22:18.740 Matt: decision. 01:22:18.750 --> 01:22:20.440 Some would say the smartest decision. 01:22:20.450 --> 01:22:21.750 Could be smartest, could be smartest. 01:22:21.750 --> 01:22:26.280 But I'm saying like from, from like a, your perspective of like understanding 01:22:26.310 --> 01:22:31.850 open source, the, the, the, the everything around that understanding and having 01:22:31.850 --> 01:22:34.460 clarity and transparency, the absolute. 01:22:35.345 --> 01:22:37.145 Most anti decision. 01:22:37.175 --> 01:22:38.855 I could, and I'm not saying it's malicious. 01:22:38.855 --> 01:22:40.435 It could have just been like, Oh, we just, let's just do it. 01:22:40.445 --> 01:22:41.465 Like, you know, we got both domains. 01:22:41.465 --> 01:22:42.065 Let's just do it that way. 01:22:42.395 --> 01:22:44.985 I don't know how it was, the decision was made, but like looking back on 01:22:44.985 --> 01:22:49.545 it, like the worst decision, like so, so bad that like it should probably 01:22:49.545 --> 01:22:53.725 be changed to something else, like, because it's so confusing and it 01:22:53.725 --> 01:22:55.805 doesn't, it's not even operating. 01:22:56.670 --> 01:23:00.760 It's confusing and it's also not like explained enough to like a lay person. 01:23:00.850 --> 01:23:03.220 Like lay people have no chance at understanding that. 01:23:03.660 --> 01:23:06.050 And then people don't need to, they just need to use a software. 01:23:06.050 --> 01:23:06.420 That's it. 01:23:08.350 --> 01:23:08.960 Okay. 01:23:09.090 --> 01:23:13.560 I mean, fair, but it's not the same software, so I don't, 01:23:14.750 --> 01:23:18.840 Matt: you know, I'll, I'll go back to the blog posts I did, which I'm 01:23:18.840 --> 01:23:21.080 going to continue to reference, I think for the rest of my career, 01:23:21.080 --> 01:23:22.230 what would we do with the keys? 01:23:22.250 --> 01:23:22.510 Yes. 01:23:22.890 --> 01:23:24.090 What would we do with the keys of the kingdom? 01:23:24.090 --> 01:23:25.930 We go into the opening salvos. 01:23:26.355 --> 01:23:29.055 Where I say, the fight for WordPress is futile. 01:23:29.215 --> 01:23:30.435 It's a distraction, really. 01:23:30.495 --> 01:23:33.495 One must stop vying for shared control over the decision making, 01:23:33.615 --> 01:23:35.145 the features, and the direction. 01:23:35.305 --> 01:23:37.805 You either choose to participate and leave your mark in the direction 01:23:37.805 --> 01:23:40.525 it's being led, contributing, debating, communicating, etc. 01:23:40.805 --> 01:23:41.675 Or simply observe. 01:23:41.885 --> 01:23:43.735 There is no clawing away ownership. 01:23:44.195 --> 01:23:49.945 So, we, we should take from WordPress as much as WordPress takes from us. 01:23:50.105 --> 01:23:51.055 All at the same time. 01:23:51.485 --> 01:23:54.015 Because WordPress will continue to exist as long as it's being 01:23:54.015 --> 01:23:55.235 led in that open source way. 01:23:55.895 --> 01:23:56.465 nature. 01:23:56.935 --> 01:24:01.025 And we have this community that we find a lot of chaos in, but it's also granting 01:24:01.025 --> 01:24:06.415 us the privilege to continue to grow WordPress, take from it, give back to it. 01:24:07.135 --> 01:24:08.095 And we all carry on. 01:24:11.715 --> 01:24:12.885 Couldn't have summed it up better if I could. 01:24:12.885 --> 01:24:18.816 I mean, that's my, that's, that's my approach, which is why, like, 01:24:18.816 --> 01:24:25.185 because I was also, I, I had the same emotions, KG to take your. 01:24:25.885 --> 01:24:29.795 To take your line that KG had when I started getting to themes and plugins. 01:24:29.955 --> 01:24:32.945 And then I did it again when I was like, why isn't, why doesn't 01:24:32.945 --> 01:24:34.255 my agency get the opportunity? 01:24:34.255 --> 01:24:37.815 I mean, there was a time where you couldn't be a VIP partner unless you 01:24:37.815 --> 01:24:41.775 were paying in a hundred thousand dollars to VIP to be a partner. 01:24:42.975 --> 01:24:46.495 And I was like, why we have the same capable people 01:24:48.565 --> 01:24:50.085 as all I've seen it. 01:24:50.495 --> 01:24:53.675 This is a rinse, repeat episode for me. 01:24:55.415 --> 01:24:56.205 Has it gotten any better? 01:24:56.675 --> 01:24:56.955 No. 01:24:57.865 --> 01:24:59.654 Oh, shit, that's not good. 01:24:59.655 --> 01:25:00.235 No, it has. 01:25:00.435 --> 01:25:04.915 It has, because largely WordPress has gotten better since then. 01:25:04.965 --> 01:25:06.075 I mean, vastly better. 01:25:06.465 --> 01:25:11.895 Um, you know, the community has changed, obviously, but the software has gotten 01:25:11.895 --> 01:25:14.775 better, and third party software has gotten better, in my opinion. 01:25:15.405 --> 01:25:15.615 Hmm. 01:25:17.565 --> 01:25:18.515 We're learning a lot. 01:25:18.535 --> 01:25:19.995 Well, you're not learning anything. 01:25:20.005 --> 01:25:20.805 You already knew all this. 01:25:20.835 --> 01:25:22.705 Matt: I'm learning a lot, so I'm excited. 01:25:22.705 --> 01:25:22.737 I'm 01:25:22.737 --> 01:25:22.769 excited. 01:25:23.290 --> 01:25:26.940 Matt: No, I mean, it is great to like, relive all this and what it is teaching 01:25:26.940 --> 01:25:33.150 me is something that I try to employ in a lot of stuff in my life is to not forget 01:25:33.150 --> 01:25:37.710 the fundamentals and like going back and re living these things and being like, 01:25:37.720 --> 01:25:41.170 oh yeah, this is why, because how are we going to get new people in if like 01:25:41.170 --> 01:25:45.810 we're forgetting all the stuff that, you know, that we've, we've learned over 01:25:45.810 --> 01:25:49.270 time, like the philosophy and like all this stuff, like it is good to relive 01:25:49.270 --> 01:25:51.150 that so that as new people come on board. 01:25:51.470 --> 01:25:55.340 We can point to that and say, this is the essence of why, why we're here. 01:25:58.870 --> 01:26:00.620 Well, I guess let's keep going. 01:26:00.620 --> 01:26:01.800 I don't, I don't know what else to say. 01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:05.090 Let's just, uh, do we, maybe we should stop. 01:26:05.090 --> 01:26:07.920 Should we stop making critical content or critiquing content? 01:26:07.920 --> 01:26:12.280 Should we stop, uh, trying to influence the project? 01:26:12.280 --> 01:26:14.410 Then we should just, um, 01:26:15.040 --> 01:26:15.870 Matt: well, I'll leave you with this. 01:26:16.790 --> 01:26:19.630 I know you got to go, but I'm, I'm working on a blog post. 01:26:20.085 --> 01:26:21.285 I told you about this already. 01:26:21.725 --> 01:26:23.375 It's titled, If I Was Running Automatic. 01:26:23.985 --> 01:26:28.205 And step one, speaking of being critical, is to cut all 01:26:28.315 --> 01:26:29.835 unnecessary products at automatic. 01:26:32.475 --> 01:26:35.175 If WordPress is to thrive and survive, the biggest contributor to its success 01:26:35.175 --> 01:26:37.155 needs to be hyper focused on one thing. 01:26:37.785 --> 01:26:38.375 WordPress. 01:26:39.230 --> 01:26:41.620 Automatic has many products that zap the attention from 01:26:41.620 --> 01:26:42.850 the core mission of WordPress. 01:26:42.920 --> 01:26:45.850 You could even argue that WordPress doesn't have a chance to focus on its 01:26:45.880 --> 01:26:50.570 core mission while trying to play catch up, refine the product, find the features 01:26:50.590 --> 01:26:53.190 end users want, patch all the bugs, etc. 01:26:53.410 --> 01:26:56.860 Yet, inside the world of Automatic, you might find yourself sprinting 01:26:56.860 --> 01:27:00.870 from the Tumblr offices to the SimpleNote cubicle all in one day. 01:27:01.090 --> 01:27:04.460 If the product doesn't impact WordPress at any capacity, it 01:27:04.460 --> 01:27:06.860 needs to be under a microscope. 01:27:07.985 --> 01:27:08.875 That's just step one. 01:27:08.885 --> 01:27:11.695 There's like 15 steps if I was head of automatic. 01:27:11.735 --> 01:27:16.115 But step one, cut all the stuff that distracts from WordPress because we need 01:27:16.125 --> 01:27:20.835 WordPress to survive and automatic is the best suitor for that, that task right now. 01:27:21.860 --> 01:27:22.230 Hmm. 01:27:23.660 --> 01:27:25.930 Well, I hope, uh, stay subscribed. 01:27:26.450 --> 01:27:26.530 Matt: I'm 01:27:26.530 --> 01:27:27.780 excited to hear you publish that. 01:27:27.780 --> 01:27:28.870 I hope everyone on the 01:27:28.870 --> 01:27:30.360 Matt: automatic squad reads that. 01:27:31.220 --> 01:27:32.900 Uh, boy, that'll be out there. 01:27:32.950 --> 01:27:33.710 That'll be out there soon. 01:27:33.710 --> 01:27:34.560 It's a, it's a long one. 01:27:34.560 --> 01:27:36.040 I, I gotta keep editing it, but 01:27:36.970 --> 01:27:37.340 nice. 01:27:37.810 --> 01:27:38.190 Matt: All right, brother. 01:27:38.190 --> 01:27:39.190 We'll, we'll end this one. 01:27:39.190 --> 01:27:39.900 This is a good one. 01:27:40.400 --> 01:27:41.310 This is fun, man. 01:27:41.760 --> 01:27:44.020 I don't know if you, if you, if you've come out on the other 01:27:44.020 --> 01:27:46.260 side of this, uh, any wiser, but. 01:27:47.340 --> 01:27:50.170 I don't, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a life, it's just like golf. 01:27:50.180 --> 01:27:54.790 This is a lifelong game, you know, it's, it's, it's the journey, right? 01:27:54.790 --> 01:27:55.100 Yeah. 01:27:55.160 --> 01:27:58.120 It's the journey, but always a pleasure. 01:27:58.720 --> 01:28:00.860 Mark Zabanski, uh, mjs. 01:28:00.860 --> 01:28:01.290 bio. 01:28:02.250 --> 01:28:03.050 This guy knows it. 01:28:03.080 --> 01:28:04.200 I've been on here too many times. 01:28:04.200 --> 01:28:08.760 I love going to it and see the little changes happening every now and again. 01:28:09.180 --> 01:28:09.490 Yeah. 01:28:09.490 --> 01:28:12.100 It's it'll be a site there one day, pretty soon, you know, 01:28:12.190 --> 01:28:13.230 wait, there's a new website. 01:28:14.750 --> 01:28:16.941 Well it's, that's, that's my kinda Lincoln bio area. 01:28:16.946 --> 01:28:17.840 That's the way bio, right. 01:28:17.840 --> 01:28:19.790 So you go there, you go there and you can see some other stuff. 01:28:19.790 --> 01:28:23.360 But Mark semanski.co is gonna be the actual website going to be. 01:28:23.360 --> 01:28:24.680 It's not, it's not very shortly. 01:28:25.070 --> 01:28:25.250 Okay. 01:28:25.250 --> 01:28:29.330 Just, I mean, depending on when you launch this or release this, maybe we'll see. 01:28:29.390 --> 01:28:29.570 Yeah. 01:28:30.440 --> 01:28:34.130 Matt: Um, send all your criticisms and critiques to the WP Minute 01:28:34.130 --> 01:28:35.810 at, uh, the wp minute.com. 01:28:35.810 --> 01:28:37.430 The wp minute.com/contact. 01:28:37.430 --> 01:28:38.240 You wanna be on the show. 01:28:38.360 --> 01:28:39.650 Go ahead and hit that contact page. 01:28:40.010 --> 01:28:40.520 Um. 01:28:41.115 --> 01:28:42.995 Subscribe to the newsletter, the WPMinute. 01:28:42.995 --> 01:28:44.555 com slash subscribe.