WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:04.141 Frederick: Today's show begins with a 40, 000 foot view of student voice and 00:00:04.141 --> 00:00:08.001 then takes us right to ground level to break down implementation of a 00:00:08.001 --> 00:00:13.321 specific practice for elevating not only student voice but also teacher voice. 00:00:13.862 --> 00:00:14.602 Are you ready? 00:01:14.004 --> 00:01:18.084 Lindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and 00:01:18.084 --> 00:01:22.684 districts co create feminist anti racist curricula that challenges, 00:01:22.704 --> 00:01:24.924 affirms, and inspires all students. 00:01:25.834 --> 00:01:30.384 A former New York City public school teacher, she holds a PhD in leadership 00:01:30.404 --> 00:01:35.114 and change and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. 00:01:36.234 --> 00:01:41.024 She believes a secret sauce of educational equity is student voice. 00:01:41.628 --> 00:01:42.398 Hello, Lindsay. 00:01:42.398 --> 00:01:43.518 Welcome to the show. 00:01:43.838 --> 00:01:44.508 Lindsay: /Hi, Frederick. 00:01:44.508 --> 00:01:45.968 I'm so excited to be here. 00:01:46.868 --> 00:01:50.518 Frederick: Yeah, this is going to be fun before we jump in. 00:01:50.578 --> 00:01:51.628 I'm really eager to do that. 00:01:51.628 --> 00:01:54.548 But before we jump in, tell me, what are you celebrating today? 00:01:54.628 --> 00:01:55.118 What 00:01:56.198 --> 00:01:57.038 Lindsay: a question. 00:01:57.068 --> 00:01:57.798 I love that. 00:01:57.848 --> 00:01:59.588 I am celebrating that. 00:02:00.018 --> 00:02:05.578 My kid loves bubbles so much that he was tantruming last night and we 00:02:05.578 --> 00:02:09.308 put bubbles in the bubble bath and he was just like, I'm a happy child. 00:02:09.328 --> 00:02:11.118 And it was like a miracle. 00:02:12.118 --> 00:02:12.768 Frederick: Wow. 00:02:12.828 --> 00:02:16.328 I will not tell you how many years it's been since we had kids 00:02:16.558 --> 00:02:18.358 taking bubble baths in our house. 00:02:21.043 --> 00:02:25.623 Oh, but you enjoy every stage, every stage has its special things 00:02:25.733 --> 00:02:27.423 and bubble baths are part of that. 00:02:27.593 --> 00:02:28.143 That's right. 00:02:29.923 --> 00:02:33.653 Lindsay, is there a story that would help listeners understand why 00:02:33.653 --> 00:02:35.013 you're doing the work you're doing? 00:02:36.013 --> 00:02:38.803 Lindsay: I think there's a lot of stories, so choosing one is hard, but I 00:02:38.803 --> 00:02:43.043 think that the reality of how I grew up. 00:02:43.423 --> 00:02:46.913 And what I did not experience, right? 00:02:46.913 --> 00:02:49.523 I think oftentimes we're looking for things that we didn't get 00:02:49.563 --> 00:02:54.553 as children, whether we're in an educator mindset or a parent mindset. 00:02:54.583 --> 00:02:56.943 We just want things different than how we had them. 00:02:58.023 --> 00:03:00.083 I did not experience. 00:03:00.553 --> 00:03:08.333 a curriculum, a student body, a teaching staff as a student in, 00:03:08.343 --> 00:03:15.343 in my K 12 experience that pushed me around questions of justice and 00:03:15.343 --> 00:03:19.083 injustice that enabled me to create. 00:03:19.673 --> 00:03:24.923 And specifically to create solutions to problems that I saw in the world. 00:03:25.213 --> 00:03:30.223 In fact, I was often silenced when I brought things up, and educators 00:03:30.223 --> 00:03:35.433 in my space were actually silenced, for lack of a better word, and 00:03:35.433 --> 00:03:39.623 kicked out of the district if they were to bring in content that 00:03:39.643 --> 00:03:41.973 questioned things like gender or race. 00:03:42.003 --> 00:03:44.863 I had one teacher that introduced books. 00:03:45.523 --> 00:03:48.633 Their eyes were watching God, there's a feminist text that he 00:03:48.633 --> 00:03:52.313 introduced and led those conversations around race and gender justice. 00:03:52.713 --> 00:03:55.833 Wasn't there like a year or two later, you know, it was just like 00:03:55.833 --> 00:03:57.883 a quick blip and then, then gone. 00:03:58.333 --> 00:04:01.963 And so being able to see what was possible, but not to really 00:04:01.963 --> 00:04:06.823 experience it as a student day to day, all the classes, every grade. 00:04:07.743 --> 00:04:09.163 Really made me seek it out. 00:04:09.163 --> 00:04:10.623 And so I got some of that in college. 00:04:10.623 --> 00:04:11.713 It was really exciting. 00:04:11.723 --> 00:04:15.893 I realized that I wanted to solve problems of the world, but I was too focused 00:04:15.893 --> 00:04:19.203 on once the problems had happened, I wanted to do something about it. 00:04:19.213 --> 00:04:22.633 So I wanted to be a domestic violence lawyer, for example. 00:04:22.633 --> 00:04:24.823 And then I was like, this is really hard. 00:04:24.983 --> 00:04:26.423 The bad things have happened. 00:04:26.503 --> 00:04:28.083 I want to prevent them from happening. 00:04:28.083 --> 00:04:30.083 Where do I do that with children? 00:04:30.293 --> 00:04:31.873 And so that's how I became an educator. 00:04:33.103 --> 00:04:33.613 Frederick: Wow. 00:04:33.883 --> 00:04:36.228 What a beautiful story. 00:04:36.248 --> 00:04:36.988 Thank you. 00:04:37.388 --> 00:04:42.858 . So we're going to talk about what you've termed pedagogy of student voice. 00:04:43.378 --> 00:04:46.478 So before we dive into it, let's define it. 00:04:46.538 --> 00:04:48.588 What is pedagogy of student voice? 00:04:49.338 --> 00:04:53.488 . Lindsay: So I have always used the phrase student voice in line with the 00:04:53.498 --> 00:04:57.488 field of student voice research that I'm part of, but I recently heard 00:04:57.528 --> 00:05:01.638 pedagogy of student voice in, I think 2020 the book street data came out 00:05:01.638 --> 00:05:03.692 from Shane Safir and Jamila Dugan. 00:05:03.753 --> 00:05:05.113 And I was like, running with it. 00:05:05.143 --> 00:05:07.583 So they have six rules of it. 00:05:07.913 --> 00:05:13.973 They say it's about having student talk time exceed teacher talk time. 00:05:14.153 --> 00:05:15.783 I think they use a Hamilton phrase. 00:05:15.783 --> 00:05:17.313 They say, talk less, smile more. 00:05:17.983 --> 00:05:21.433 And really they're talking about like at least 75 percent of class time. 00:05:21.673 --> 00:05:25.223 Students should be talking, or if not, literal speaking, like, you know, 00:05:25.293 --> 00:05:26.913 engaging in some sort of creation. 00:05:27.263 --> 00:05:29.953 Valuing questions over answers is their second rule. 00:05:30.523 --> 00:05:34.343 Ritualizing reflection and revision, which we often don't make time for, 00:05:35.293 --> 00:05:39.123 making learning public, and that's for educators and adults as well as children. 00:05:39.723 --> 00:05:43.553 Circle up as a specific practice, and I think about a lot of protocols 00:05:43.553 --> 00:05:46.023 or activities that you can do, so having those at the ready. 00:05:46.358 --> 00:05:47.438 to amplify student voice. 00:05:47.538 --> 00:05:50.528 And then the sixth one is feedback over grades. 00:05:50.798 --> 00:05:55.868 So that real focus on progress versus perfection and that idea of, you know, 00:05:56.518 --> 00:06:00.848 getting to be the best you can be versus that idea of hierarchy that is 00:06:00.848 --> 00:06:02.818 way too common in educational spaces. 00:06:04.008 --> 00:06:09.038 Frederick: I love this because it opens a lot of space for not only student 00:06:09.048 --> 00:06:10.898 voice, but I think for relationships. 00:06:10.948 --> 00:06:17.378 Relationships between students because In this kind of a venue, they're really 00:06:17.378 --> 00:06:19.208 going to get to know each other more. 00:06:19.208 --> 00:06:22.568 But also that relationship between teachers and students. 00:06:23.788 --> 00:06:27.748 I'm doing a lot of work right now focused on classroom culture, 00:06:28.168 --> 00:06:29.968 which I think has three components. 00:06:29.998 --> 00:06:35.188 The relationships piece, the management piece, and then how we keep students safe. 00:06:36.218 --> 00:06:42.898 And when I think about that relationships piece, I think about students and teachers 00:06:42.898 --> 00:06:44.758 having a relationship along two lines. 00:06:45.238 --> 00:06:50.198 One is kind of the learning centered relationship that is as a student. 00:06:50.208 --> 00:06:56.028 How do I relate to you Lindsay as a teacher of the subject of the content 00:06:56.458 --> 00:07:01.468 and then there's the other side of it, which is the Learner not learning 00:07:01.478 --> 00:07:03.988 the learner teacher relationship. 00:07:03.988 --> 00:07:05.812 So how do I experience you as? 00:07:06.023 --> 00:07:08.453 As another human being in this classroom. 00:07:08.533 --> 00:07:08.943 Right? 00:07:09.473 --> 00:07:14.973 And and so if I, if I have a strong relationship with you from a learning 00:07:14.973 --> 00:07:19.333 perspective, and from a learner perspective, then you're going to be able 00:07:19.333 --> 00:07:24.593 to reach me and support me in ways that are much stronger if we don't have those. 00:07:24.863 --> 00:07:29.813 So it seems like this really ties in to this idea of student voice. 00:07:29.883 --> 00:07:34.163 And I'd like to just Open that up and let you run with that a bit. 00:07:34.753 --> 00:07:39.743 Lindsay: Yeah, I think if I had to distill down that big definition of pedagogy 00:07:39.743 --> 00:07:44.333 of student voice, I like to think of it as a co creation which to co create 00:07:44.333 --> 00:07:47.813 with students in an authentic way, you need to be able to have that trust. 00:07:48.013 --> 00:07:51.743 and that human piece built and you need to know enough about your 00:07:51.743 --> 00:07:55.103 curriculum and instruction that you can flex with whatever it is that the 00:07:55.103 --> 00:07:56.633 student needs or is interested in. 00:07:56.983 --> 00:08:00.243 And so I think from a planning and curriculum perspective, there's 00:08:00.243 --> 00:08:03.783 definitely a lot to be said about that model, which I absolutely love. 00:08:03.783 --> 00:08:05.493 Thank you for sharing that model. 00:08:05.783 --> 00:08:06.903 And then I also think from a. 00:08:07.043 --> 00:08:10.473 practical sense of like, well, what does it look like to do something 00:08:10.473 --> 00:08:12.793 tomorrow that does both of those things? 00:08:13.213 --> 00:08:18.633 I would say my number one protocol to do and to do with staff, as well 00:08:18.663 --> 00:08:20.473 as teachers with their students. 00:08:20.473 --> 00:08:24.183 I think everyone benefits from this practice is circle or circle up. 00:08:24.653 --> 00:08:28.353 And so from indigenous communities, we've learned, you know, this practice of 00:08:28.653 --> 00:08:31.633 circling up, having a talking piece past. 00:08:31.823 --> 00:08:36.163 Sing it around and literally giving everyone this democratic space to share, 00:08:36.743 --> 00:08:41.253 sharing about self and stories and personal connections to material, and 00:08:41.253 --> 00:08:44.623 also sharing in response to content, but democratizing the space so you 00:08:44.623 --> 00:08:49.283 don't have the kid who's the loudest get the most say in the conversation. 00:08:52.073 --> 00:08:53.763 Frederick: This sounds like a powerful practice. 00:08:53.793 --> 00:08:57.173 And I think we're planning to kind of dive into this, right? 00:08:57.243 --> 00:08:57.803 Mm hmm. 00:08:58.003 --> 00:08:58.693 Here today. 00:08:59.193 --> 00:09:02.763 I, something just popped in my head though, as you were talking, when you said 00:09:02.873 --> 00:09:05.983 co create and, and needing to be flexible. 00:09:05.983 --> 00:09:09.553 And I'm thinking about what does that look like? 00:09:09.553 --> 00:09:11.413 How do we do that with students? 00:09:11.843 --> 00:09:13.423 And then it just hit me. 00:09:13.423 --> 00:09:16.393 Some of the things we've been talking about recently in the assistant 00:09:16.393 --> 00:09:19.993 principal podcast about working with veteran teachers are really. 00:09:20.158 --> 00:09:25.178 Any teachers and helping teachers grow, helping that professional development 00:09:25.188 --> 00:09:30.098 piece, and I'm a strong advocate that teachers should be in the lead with that. 00:09:30.718 --> 00:09:34.108 But that relationship really is a co creation relationship with teachers. 00:09:34.118 --> 00:09:37.808 So if I'm an assistant principal and I'm trying to support teacher growth. 00:09:39.078 --> 00:09:44.078 In some ways, I think that's going to mirror me as a teacher creating, 00:09:44.638 --> 00:09:48.688 you know, student voice, giving room for student voice in my classroom. 00:09:48.698 --> 00:09:52.168 Like it's the same, kind of the same relationship. 00:09:52.418 --> 00:09:52.798 Yes. 00:09:52.878 --> 00:09:53.038 Oh 00:09:53.038 --> 00:09:53.458 Lindsay: my gosh. 00:09:53.458 --> 00:09:53.688 Yes. 00:09:54.048 --> 00:09:55.168 It's the same thing, right? 00:09:55.168 --> 00:09:56.097 We always used to... 00:09:56.098 --> 00:09:59.708 to say in the school that I worked in, and they have a whole network. 00:09:59.708 --> 00:10:02.028 Their model is one learning model for all. 00:10:02.038 --> 00:10:05.958 So the same things we do with adults is the same things we do with students. 00:10:05.958 --> 00:10:09.698 And the students see that latch onto that, appreciate that. 00:10:10.278 --> 00:10:11.788 And it all works better that way. 00:10:13.204 --> 00:10:18.094 Frederick: I want to, as we move into the circle piece, I'm going to 00:10:18.094 --> 00:10:21.714 share with you, a version of this, but I am not claiming that it is. 00:10:22.314 --> 00:10:23.424 Correct in any way. 00:10:23.424 --> 00:10:26.584 In fact, I want to start with it because I suspect it's flawed, 00:10:27.014 --> 00:10:28.194 but it's something I can do. 00:10:28.194 --> 00:10:29.224 And I just started doing. 00:10:29.224 --> 00:10:32.714 And I think sometimes that's a good way for us to start these things. 00:10:33.244 --> 00:10:37.954 So I'm going to share what we do and then you can help guide me through 00:10:37.954 --> 00:10:40.464 it and improve and build on it. 00:10:40.964 --> 00:10:41.464 Sounds great. 00:10:42.044 --> 00:10:47.664 Okay, so I train a lot with nonprofit and governmental leaders and now 00:10:47.664 --> 00:10:49.084 we usually have small groups. 00:10:49.094 --> 00:10:50.014 So we're. 00:10:50.669 --> 00:10:56.989 7 to 12 people and at the end of training sessions, we will circle up and these are 00:10:56.989 --> 00:11:00.029 groups that meet a total of four times. 00:11:00.439 --> 00:11:03.099 So after the first time we all know each other, right? 00:11:03.149 --> 00:11:05.039 So we'll circle up at the end. 00:11:05.659 --> 00:11:10.066 I provide three prompts and they are , what are you going to be 00:11:10.066 --> 00:11:11.716 thinking about on the drive home? 00:11:13.046 --> 00:11:15.216 Do you have a challenge for the group? 00:11:16.841 --> 00:11:19.871 Or is there a thank you that you would like to share and they, 00:11:20.201 --> 00:11:24.101 they're supposed to only do one of those because right, even with eight 00:11:24.101 --> 00:11:25.641 people that could take a long time. 00:11:25.681 --> 00:11:27.351 So we try to really keep it succinct. 00:11:27.381 --> 00:11:28.201 We circle up. 00:11:29.381 --> 00:11:34.291 I've had colleagues that have done that, that have said you're allowed to pass. 00:11:34.651 --> 00:11:36.131 You don't have to participate. 00:11:36.331 --> 00:11:37.631 I never put that out there. 00:11:38.091 --> 00:11:38.951 I just put it up. 00:11:38.951 --> 00:11:40.011 We have these three options. 00:11:40.011 --> 00:11:41.461 What are you thinking about on the drive home? 00:11:41.623 --> 00:11:45.963 Do you have a challenge for the group or do you want to say thank you to somebody? 00:11:46.593 --> 00:11:49.493 And then we go and I go last. 00:11:49.843 --> 00:11:50.443 Usually. 00:11:51.153 --> 00:11:51.503 All right. 00:11:51.583 --> 00:11:53.773 So tell me how to make that better. 00:11:53.773 --> 00:11:54.563 Where did I hit it? 00:11:54.563 --> 00:11:55.513 And where am I missing? 00:11:55.903 --> 00:11:58.343 Lindsay: I mean, I think that's beautiful, but I think the thing about 00:11:58.343 --> 00:12:00.043 circle is you can't really do it wrong. 00:12:00.373 --> 00:12:05.723 And so the one, the one thing that I think is important is the structure. 00:12:05.853 --> 00:12:08.053 So it sounds like you have that structure of the circle. 00:12:08.313 --> 00:12:09.033 I said one thing. 00:12:09.033 --> 00:12:12.133 I'm going to say like three things in the structure of the circle, the 00:12:12.153 --> 00:12:17.673 democratization and of the facilitator or the keeper of the circle sitting as well. 00:12:18.203 --> 00:12:21.073 And to have nothing in the middle, except maybe a centerpiece 00:12:21.143 --> 00:12:22.943 that's co constructed to do this. 00:12:22.963 --> 00:12:26.693 I actually love having index cards for everyone to fill out 00:12:26.693 --> 00:12:29.723 and they just write the name of a person that is important to them. 00:12:29.763 --> 00:12:32.473 It could be a young person if you're specifically, you know, thinking about 00:12:32.503 --> 00:12:36.543 education spaces, but then you immediately have something that, you know, is. 00:12:36.613 --> 00:12:37.463 is a centerpiece. 00:12:37.993 --> 00:12:39.383 And so that's the structure. 00:12:39.433 --> 00:12:43.083 The only other piece of the structure is there's an opening and a closing ceremony. 00:12:43.083 --> 00:12:49.273 And the reason as explained to me for this is that circle is a very different kind of 00:12:49.903 --> 00:12:52.853 conversation than a typical class, right? 00:12:52.853 --> 00:12:55.843 Where students can shout out or they can raise hands or interrupt or whatever, 00:12:55.853 --> 00:13:00.523 you know, and so just to preserve the sanctity of the circle space to open 00:13:00.523 --> 00:13:05.793 and close, but that opening closing could be, you know everyone make. 00:13:05.998 --> 00:13:09.068 A face or a movement based on how you're feeling right now. 00:13:09.078 --> 00:13:10.288 You know, it could be really quick. 00:13:10.548 --> 00:13:14.698 It could be I've done when the bell rings and we're wrapping up class real fast 00:13:14.698 --> 00:13:17.538 It's like group clap everyone clap at the exact same time, you know something 00:13:17.538 --> 00:13:21.828 quick but we're honoring the start and end and then literally any questions. 00:13:21.828 --> 00:13:26.238 So I love all of those questions I I think anything that connects with your 00:13:26.238 --> 00:13:29.738 group anything that enables choice like you give them choice and what 00:13:29.738 --> 00:13:34.748 they're selecting and that idea of you know, what is important to me? 00:13:34.748 --> 00:13:35.958 What am I still thinking about? 00:13:35.958 --> 00:13:37.298 What am I challenged by? 00:13:37.298 --> 00:13:40.768 You know, those kinds of questions are the best because they're not just 00:13:40.768 --> 00:13:43.838 academic in terms of what content did I just learn and what am I going 00:13:43.838 --> 00:13:47.068 to do action wise tomorrow, but how am I going to be feeling about it? 00:13:47.328 --> 00:13:50.388 I'm feeling overwhelmed, you know, like my challenge is there's so much 00:13:50.388 --> 00:13:51.978 good stuff and I can't do it all right. 00:13:52.228 --> 00:13:54.028 That's also like the human part. 00:13:54.048 --> 00:13:56.388 So to go back to your model, I think you have both there and 00:13:56.388 --> 00:13:57.458 those questions, which is great. 00:13:58.971 --> 00:13:59.631 Frederick: So one of the. 00:13:59.981 --> 00:14:01.851 Big things we're trying to do. 00:14:01.861 --> 00:14:06.351 We're, we're elevating student voice, but the way that works with circle 00:14:06.691 --> 00:14:12.231 is students are getting choice because most of the time when we do a circle, we 00:14:12.231 --> 00:14:14.311 are giving some kind of choice, right? 00:14:15.231 --> 00:14:16.491 So we're giving choice. 00:14:16.881 --> 00:14:17.981 It's something that. 00:14:18.891 --> 00:14:25.481 I think allows students to connect with whatever we're doing, but also allows 00:14:25.931 --> 00:14:30.661 human connection in general between students and teacher and everybody. 00:14:31.461 --> 00:14:36.261 And then if we're doing it right and we're getting the prompts right, 00:14:36.281 --> 00:14:41.231 the choices, then they're also connecting to their self, which means 00:14:41.231 --> 00:14:42.471 they're connecting to that voice. 00:14:42.611 --> 00:14:43.801 And that's where. 00:14:44.386 --> 00:14:45.796 That part of the win comes in. 00:14:46.816 --> 00:14:47.586 Lindsay: Absolutely. 00:14:47.696 --> 00:14:47.996 Yeah. 00:14:47.996 --> 00:14:50.426 And I think, I mean, I can give some concrete examples. 00:14:50.526 --> 00:14:52.386 I don't know how deep you want to go in terms 00:14:52.386 --> 00:14:53.096 Frederick: of what this looks like. 00:14:53.096 --> 00:14:53.726 Yeah, I do. 00:14:53.756 --> 00:14:57.466 Well, cause the other, the other question that popped into my head, 00:14:57.466 --> 00:15:00.056 I made an assumption like I always do it at the end of the training. 00:15:00.426 --> 00:15:02.894 But as I heard you talking, I think you said that maybe it 00:15:02.894 --> 00:15:04.404 can go into different places. 00:15:04.404 --> 00:15:07.944 So I need to step back just one sec and say, okay. 00:15:08.379 --> 00:15:14.059 From an overarching perspective, what is the role of circle in the 00:15:14.059 --> 00:15:15.989 classroom that promotes student 00:15:15.999 --> 00:15:16.559 Lindsay: voice? 00:15:17.139 --> 00:15:18.409 Oh, such a good question. 00:15:18.419 --> 00:15:20.129 Okay, so there's layers to this. 00:15:20.629 --> 00:15:25.129 One is you're building the foundational community and the foundational. 00:15:26.274 --> 00:15:31.744 A set of agreements, ways of interacting with one another to enable you to 00:15:31.744 --> 00:15:36.964 tackle things that might be challenging emotionally that might deal with 00:15:36.964 --> 00:15:40.514 justice or injustice that might personally impact a lot of students. 00:15:40.974 --> 00:15:44.444 And so you're kind of building that foundation to be able to have those 00:15:44.444 --> 00:15:48.694 hard conversations if that's what the student brings up or the student has a, 00:15:48.694 --> 00:15:53.464 you know, a personal connection that is fraught with emotion around those topics. 00:15:53.784 --> 00:15:55.144 So I do a lot of justice work. 00:15:55.144 --> 00:15:56.684 So I think that's, that's important to build that 00:15:56.684 --> 00:15:58.354 community, to be able to go there. 00:15:58.514 --> 00:16:00.864 You're also, I mean, usually one of my first ones. 00:16:00.874 --> 00:16:03.844 So just to give a concrete example, I think would, would best illuminate this. 00:16:03.844 --> 00:16:08.094 But one of my first circles is typically the story of your name. 00:16:08.264 --> 00:16:11.114 And so on that level, you're just building community. 00:16:11.124 --> 00:16:14.464 You're not really doing a lot of things academically, but you're just asking 00:16:14.464 --> 00:16:15.764 students, tell me about your name. 00:16:15.829 --> 00:16:16.849 And that's the prompt, right? 00:16:16.849 --> 00:16:19.969 You can give a lot of sentence starters and stuff, but some students 00:16:19.979 --> 00:16:22.799 will tell me, you know, their, about their last names and how they have 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:24.259 both their mom and dad's last names. 00:16:24.269 --> 00:16:28.109 And this is cultural and, you know, or some people will be like, I hate my name. 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:29.579 No one can pronounce it right. 00:16:29.659 --> 00:16:30.679 This is how you pronounce it. 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.409 And they teach the class, you know, there's so many different 00:16:33.409 --> 00:16:35.089 directions you can head with that. 00:16:35.259 --> 00:16:37.409 And everyone has something to share. 00:16:37.829 --> 00:16:38.709 About their name. 00:16:39.029 --> 00:16:43.429 So I think that's that's a way that it's just pure human, not so much 00:16:43.439 --> 00:16:45.389 of the academic and instruction. 00:16:45.869 --> 00:16:49.419 But then from there, you know, you go to something about current events 00:16:49.419 --> 00:16:52.859 like this is a staff circle and I can I'll share these resources as well 00:16:53.369 --> 00:16:56.589 with your listeners so they can like literally just grab the slide deck. 00:16:56.589 --> 00:17:02.064 But We were in class or in, you know, in the year that Trump 00:17:02.064 --> 00:17:03.674 was elected to the presidency. 00:17:04.244 --> 00:17:08.224 We were, as a staff community, grappling with, we are at a school 00:17:08.224 --> 00:17:11.694 where we have all students who are newly immigrated to the country. 00:17:12.104 --> 00:17:15.074 How are they going to be feeling about this and how do 00:17:15.074 --> 00:17:17.424 we facilitate class, right? 00:17:17.424 --> 00:17:20.604 And so we're like, we need to first figure that out as a staff. 00:17:21.024 --> 00:17:23.694 Before we go teach class tomorrow, kind of thing, right? 00:17:23.714 --> 00:17:26.364 So, one of the things we did was talk about that. 00:17:26.364 --> 00:17:30.224 And so, it was like, literally, what is the word first word that comes 00:17:30.224 --> 00:17:33.394 to mind when you see, you know, and then like, a magazine title. 00:17:33.394 --> 00:17:36.674 So for that, for that would be like, newspaper headline of like, Trump winning 00:17:36.674 --> 00:17:37.524 the presidency or something, right? 00:17:37.524 --> 00:17:38.424 Whatever the current event is. 00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:41.379 So it's literally just word association at first. 00:17:41.399 --> 00:17:43.179 You could do this with students current events. 00:17:43.179 --> 00:17:45.289 You could do it with a, a reading assignment. 00:17:45.679 --> 00:17:48.939 Then maybe you give a couple minutes to read or listen to a podcast or 00:17:48.939 --> 00:17:50.669 hear, you know, commentary, whatever. 00:17:51.089 --> 00:17:53.999 And then the next prompt is literally make a connection. 00:17:54.299 --> 00:17:56.139 So it's not debating something, right? 00:17:56.139 --> 00:17:58.109 It's not saying here's what's right and here's what's wrong. 00:17:58.109 --> 00:17:59.299 And this is my position. 00:17:59.299 --> 00:17:59.899 I'm never moving. 00:18:00.314 --> 00:18:04.934 It's saying, what's a personal experience you have related to the 00:18:04.934 --> 00:18:07.084 word that you associated with this current event or something, right? 00:18:07.084 --> 00:18:10.824 Like, what's another story that you want to tell the community? 00:18:11.024 --> 00:18:13.254 What's another current event that's connected? 00:18:13.444 --> 00:18:15.404 What is a text that you read? 00:18:15.504 --> 00:18:17.654 A song that's coming to mind? 00:18:17.904 --> 00:18:20.524 You know, a, a class, a science class. 00:18:20.524 --> 00:18:22.424 We just did this thing and that reminds me of this thing. 00:18:22.424 --> 00:18:25.874 You know, any kind of connection and you open it wide up. 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:32.849 And enabling people to almost storytell as a form of instruction, but they get 00:18:32.849 --> 00:18:36.429 to be the experts in their own lives and the experts of the content that 00:18:36.429 --> 00:18:41.469 they're bringing in is super cool and also depolarizing, especially when 00:18:41.469 --> 00:18:42.559 you're talking about hard topics. 00:18:43.299 --> 00:18:47.949 So there's kind of the human element of grappling with emotion in those 00:18:47.949 --> 00:18:51.539 conversations, getting to know everyone else's stories and experiences 00:18:51.909 --> 00:18:54.289 and the agency that students have. 00:18:54.849 --> 00:18:58.479 and adults have in conversations like this, to bring in their own wisdom 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:02.559 to the conversation and feel listened to because no one can interrupt. 00:19:02.869 --> 00:19:07.089 And then usually what I'll do as a closing there might be, all right, 00:19:07.089 --> 00:19:10.189 I'm going to put up a bunch of words that are like skill words. 00:19:10.199 --> 00:19:14.729 So for example, vulnerability emotional regulation, like things that 00:19:14.729 --> 00:19:16.419 were required in this conversation. 00:19:17.424 --> 00:19:20.274 Like, which did you feel like you did really well in today? 00:19:20.314 --> 00:19:22.014 So everyone ends on a success. 00:19:22.684 --> 00:19:25.484 And then they can just share that one phrase as they go around to a close. 00:19:25.854 --> 00:19:26.964 Sorry, that was a lot of talking. 00:19:27.844 --> 00:19:28.664 Frederick: No, that's great. 00:19:28.734 --> 00:19:34.014 You mentioned depolarization, so one thing I can imagine some listeners are thinking 00:19:34.114 --> 00:19:38.464 as you're going through this is, Whoa, I'd be concerned about putting in a circle 00:19:38.814 --> 00:19:40.614 that's going to open up all this stuff. 00:19:41.744 --> 00:19:46.054 We live in this weird space where we have to deal with this stuff, but it's 00:19:46.064 --> 00:19:48.794 all become so red hot flammable as well. 00:19:48.824 --> 00:19:50.804 So we're kind of trapped. 00:19:50.804 --> 00:19:54.174 So in what ways is circle depolarizing? 00:19:54.984 --> 00:19:57.464 . Lindsay: So, oh my gosh, I love how you're asking this question. 00:19:57.684 --> 00:20:02.414 I think Anytime you can speak from the I, so I think about this 00:20:02.424 --> 00:20:05.594 even in just like interpersonal conflict resolution training. 00:20:06.304 --> 00:20:10.124 Anytime you can speak from the I, and to truly speak from the I, not like, 00:20:10.244 --> 00:20:15.794 I don't like what you just said, but like, I'm feeling X, you know, and 00:20:15.794 --> 00:20:17.694 here's the story that's behind that. 00:20:17.894 --> 00:20:20.674 I think the invitation to share a story. 00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:23.609 is immediately humanizing. 00:20:24.099 --> 00:20:27.449 So it kind of decreases this need to be right or wrong or 00:20:27.449 --> 00:20:28.869 put people into categories. 00:20:29.449 --> 00:20:31.169 It invites emotion. 00:20:31.179 --> 00:20:32.329 I'm thinking about Dr. 00:20:32.329 --> 00:20:36.969 Sheree Bridges Patrick and I published a framework for analyzing what types 00:20:36.969 --> 00:20:38.879 of discussion kind of are present. 00:20:39.379 --> 00:20:41.829 And you can have multiple types of these. 00:20:41.859 --> 00:20:45.819 So it's not like one or the other, but in generative mobilizing 00:20:46.134 --> 00:20:47.674 That's the type we want to have. 00:20:47.854 --> 00:20:53.334 We're open to the disequilibrium, kind of feeling a little bit of discomfort 00:20:53.654 --> 00:20:59.104 because it invites change and possibility, and it connects with our emotions. 00:20:59.364 --> 00:21:02.274 So one of the things that we see is polarizing discourse 00:21:02.284 --> 00:21:03.594 kind of entrenches us, right? 00:21:03.594 --> 00:21:07.839 We don't invite that disequilibrium or or We might feel a disequilibrium, but we 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:09.909 don't invite the imagination possibility. 00:21:10.269 --> 00:21:12.859 But another thing that's very popular in especially white liberal 00:21:12.889 --> 00:21:14.789 spaces is we intellectualize. 00:21:15.139 --> 00:21:18.379 So we can academically say, I say this all the time, like, I heard a podcast 00:21:18.939 --> 00:21:20.229 that said blah, blah, blah, right? 00:21:21.184 --> 00:21:23.904 And I'm leaving it in the head space, but I don't have the heart space. 00:21:24.334 --> 00:21:28.124 I'm not, like, feeling any emotion, because I'm academically talking about 00:21:28.124 --> 00:21:29.754 something that's not my own story. 00:21:30.034 --> 00:21:31.504 I'm just repeating what I heard. 00:21:31.954 --> 00:21:35.244 And I think that's very common when we talk about issues of injustice, 00:21:35.244 --> 00:21:36.904 or really, like, anything, right? 00:21:36.904 --> 00:21:37.974 Any academic thing. 00:21:37.974 --> 00:21:40.394 It's like, well, I'm just regurgitating this information. 00:21:40.754 --> 00:21:44.354 But I'm not personally connecting to it, and so I'm less likely to remember it. 00:21:44.434 --> 00:21:47.754 less likely to actually impact my life and people are probably 00:21:47.754 --> 00:21:48.974 going to tune out when I speak. 00:21:48.994 --> 00:21:53.364 But if I have a story to share and I'm invited to make that connection 00:21:53.544 --> 00:21:56.754 and choose the type of connection and the degree of the connection that 00:21:56.754 --> 00:22:00.254 I make, people are going to be more engaged in listening and I'm going to 00:22:00.254 --> 00:22:04.584 feel better about sharing and we have that generative mobilizing discourse. 00:22:05.584 --> 00:22:09.784 Frederick: So when you and I kind of had a preliminary conversation about what this 00:22:09.804 --> 00:22:16.044 podcast might look like, and we were both excited about this idea of, of student 00:22:16.044 --> 00:22:23.114 voice, and I'd asked about, well, you know, I could see teachers wanting, yes, 00:22:23.114 --> 00:22:26.284 that sounds great, but that also sounds like one of those things that can get 00:22:26.284 --> 00:22:28.424 really messy and, and run off the rails. 00:22:29.354 --> 00:22:34.324 And, and you said, well, circle is one really safe. 00:22:34.864 --> 00:22:36.304 Space to start. 00:22:36.304 --> 00:22:38.104 And so we've started to unpack that. 00:22:38.424 --> 00:22:39.384 And then we talked about. 00:22:40.334 --> 00:22:43.954 We want to make sure that coming out of this assistant principals can kind of 00:22:44.044 --> 00:22:49.334 see how can I introduce this to teachers and it's not, Hey, I heard this circles 00:22:49.344 --> 00:22:50.824 thing and you need to go do that. 00:22:51.794 --> 00:22:54.104 This looks like, right? 00:22:54.624 --> 00:22:55.934 We don't even have to sell it. 00:22:55.964 --> 00:22:59.824 What we can do is let people experience it and then they can 00:22:59.824 --> 00:23:03.204 decide whether or not they want to take that back to their classrooms. 00:23:03.204 --> 00:23:05.174 I think that's a really key point. 00:23:05.844 --> 00:23:07.384 We're going to help assistant principals. 00:23:07.719 --> 00:23:12.799 Think about how to go do this with teachers, and I would suggest don't 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:16.299 go do it with teachers because you want them to go do it with their kids. 00:23:16.579 --> 00:23:21.389 Go do this with teachers because you value teacher voice in the same 00:23:21.389 --> 00:23:24.469 way that you want your students to value student voice, right? 00:23:24.529 --> 00:23:25.779 So don't do this. 00:23:26.149 --> 00:23:29.879 Because you want the next generation effect, do it because you're going to 00:23:29.879 --> 00:23:36.235 value the immediate impact and so to, have and foster more teacher voice at 00:23:36.235 --> 00:23:40.225 the end of a professional development or at the end of some meeting that 00:23:40.225 --> 00:23:45.765 we have, whatever excuse I can have to get teachers together, I want to 00:23:45.765 --> 00:23:50.595 bring their voices and I know because I've been listening to Lindsay now, 00:23:50.975 --> 00:23:53.355 A simple way to do that is circle. 00:23:53.385 --> 00:23:56.495 So I'm the AP, I've got all these teachers there. 00:23:56.495 --> 00:24:01.092 We just finished whatever we finished and I'm going to, take a step out 00:24:01.142 --> 00:24:02.712 and we're going to do a circle. 00:24:03.212 --> 00:24:03.962 What should I do? 00:24:05.242 --> 00:24:06.302 Lindsay: Oh, such a good question. 00:24:06.302 --> 00:24:06.562 Okay. 00:24:06.562 --> 00:24:10.292 So in something, in a situation like that where you had your typical meeting and now 00:24:10.292 --> 00:24:14.072 we're reflecting, I might do a very quick. 00:24:14.402 --> 00:24:14.882 Circle. 00:24:14.912 --> 00:24:19.302 So it might be how are you all feeling in a pose? 00:24:19.522 --> 00:24:19.802 Right? 00:24:19.802 --> 00:24:22.932 And so that's another again, thinking about UDL is really important. 00:24:22.992 --> 00:24:24.382 Universal design for learning. 00:24:24.682 --> 00:24:26.542 So not everyone loves speaking. 00:24:26.962 --> 00:24:29.032 And so giving people different opportunities. 00:24:29.372 --> 00:24:30.712 It could be how are you feeling in a pose? 00:24:30.732 --> 00:24:31.942 It could be everyone. 00:24:32.242 --> 00:24:33.072 What am I trying to say? 00:24:33.212 --> 00:24:35.422 Oh, take an index card and draw, right? 00:24:35.422 --> 00:24:37.142 It could, it could be some other modality. 00:24:37.142 --> 00:24:42.402 It could be literally find a picture on your phone or a meme or something 00:24:42.402 --> 00:24:44.042 and hold it up to the group, right? 00:24:44.042 --> 00:24:45.602 Around like how you're feeling in this moment. 00:24:45.782 --> 00:24:46.842 But get that emotion. 00:24:47.467 --> 00:24:47.837 there. 00:24:47.897 --> 00:24:48.607 What's the emotion? 00:24:48.607 --> 00:24:49.457 Just do an emotion check. 00:24:49.687 --> 00:24:52.377 You can also do that at the beginning, especially if you're going to introduce 00:24:52.377 --> 00:24:56.147 a new pedagogical practice or some change that people might be a little averse to. 00:24:56.147 --> 00:24:58.447 Like, let's feel the temperature of the room right now, right? 00:24:58.447 --> 00:24:59.667 Like quick, quick circle. 00:24:59.987 --> 00:25:05.067 And then I would ask for like a next step or an experience that you. 00:25:05.627 --> 00:25:09.397 Either have had that connects to what we're learning or that you want 00:25:09.417 --> 00:25:14.897 to have kind of visioning what is possible With whatever it is you learn. 00:25:14.927 --> 00:25:17.197 Let's say you just learn a new tech tool or something, right? 00:25:17.197 --> 00:25:20.667 And it's like how might this bring joy to your students? 00:25:20.677 --> 00:25:23.387 For example might be the prompt and everyone will share like 00:25:23.427 --> 00:25:25.797 their ideal scenario barrier free. 00:25:25.797 --> 00:25:28.427 They're not thinking about the challenges They're just putting out 00:25:28.427 --> 00:25:32.277 there their wish and then you might end with something like a group clap or 00:25:32.277 --> 00:25:34.367 an inspiring quote to end the circle. 00:25:34.897 --> 00:25:38.947 I also would say you can do a circle as an entire PD. 00:25:39.347 --> 00:25:42.817 So especially if there's something to talk about, but also to 00:25:42.817 --> 00:25:44.767 just model quality practice. 00:25:44.877 --> 00:25:47.647 So I have a bunch of slides that are like, if you have an hour with 00:25:47.657 --> 00:25:49.227 staff, here's how to do a circle. 00:25:49.882 --> 00:25:51.302 for the entire hour. 00:25:51.322 --> 00:25:52.542 And here's how I would build. 00:25:52.572 --> 00:25:57.052 So there's like three in a row that I would do over time. 00:25:57.172 --> 00:25:59.442 Build community values and agreements first. 00:25:59.992 --> 00:26:03.562 Then you talk about circle practice story of name, and then you do something 00:26:03.562 --> 00:26:08.602 challenging like current events within the community or news item that we talk about. 00:26:09.292 --> 00:26:12.922 Frederick: But Lindsay, if I have everybody in a circle for the entire 00:26:12.932 --> 00:26:16.492 PD, how are teachers going to sit in the back row and grade their papers? 00:26:16.717 --> 00:26:17.427 Exactly. 00:26:18.427 --> 00:26:20.077 You mean I have to be engaged? 00:26:21.077 --> 00:26:21.517 Okay. 00:26:21.567 --> 00:26:26.660 I'm thinking through a lot of this and I can just see so many opportunities. 00:26:26.861 --> 00:26:33.544 I love the idea that let's just wait in and try this and see how this goes, right? 00:26:33.544 --> 00:26:37.034 Because that's another thing as leaders we need to do if we want. 00:26:37.410 --> 00:26:40.680 Teachers to grow and be willing to take risks. 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:43.050 We need to be willing to do that too. 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.170 , and again, instead of coming in and saying, Hey, there's this new tool 00:26:46.170 --> 00:26:50.530 for student voice, I can go in and say, I know that the wisdom is in 00:26:50.530 --> 00:26:54.460 the room and I need to be better about giving voice to that wisdom. 00:26:54.490 --> 00:26:59.070 So this is something I heard on this goofy podcast, two people talking about. 00:26:59.214 --> 00:27:03.800 Using a circle to promote teacher voice, and I want to try it out. 00:27:04.047 --> 00:27:05.177 Here's how it would work. 00:27:05.492 --> 00:27:06.632 Are you okay to do this? 00:27:06.892 --> 00:27:10.632 Hopefully enough people will nod their heads and you can claim permission. 00:27:10.825 --> 00:27:12.535 and then we can circle up and do that. 00:27:13.055 --> 00:27:15.615 Lindsay: One of the things that just came to mind as well as, as you're 00:27:15.615 --> 00:27:19.165 thinking about the human centered part of what you're talking about. 00:27:19.325 --> 00:27:22.795 I think sometimes When you were speaking, I was just thinking of the teacher who 00:27:22.795 --> 00:27:26.645 just wants to be heard, like maybe they're literally not heard in their classes 00:27:26.645 --> 00:27:30.025 and the students are disruptive and they just want to focus on them for a minute. 00:27:30.235 --> 00:27:32.305 It's nice to have that space for that reason. 00:27:32.535 --> 00:27:35.305 It's also nice for people to be appreciated. 00:27:35.305 --> 00:27:38.625 And so one of the other things that I can put in, in this link, I'll, I'll give 00:27:38.635 --> 00:27:41.575 for your audience is values in action. 00:27:41.615 --> 00:27:42.595 It's a resource. 00:27:42.730 --> 00:27:43.350 It's a website. 00:27:43.370 --> 00:27:47.130 They came up with like 20 or so values or strengths, character 00:27:47.130 --> 00:27:51.610 strengths, and it's a bunch of positive psychologists who were like, let's talk 00:27:51.610 --> 00:27:53.660 about positive strengths of people. 00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:57.390 And so I actually printed them all out and put them out 00:27:57.410 --> 00:27:58.720 on , the wall of my classroom. 00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:03.110 And we would do a circle where it was turned to your left and say something 00:28:03.110 --> 00:28:05.530 positive about the person next to you. 00:28:05.740 --> 00:28:07.720 And I tried this without the resource. 00:28:08.525 --> 00:28:09.065 Nothing. 00:28:09.095 --> 00:28:11.105 Or like, that person is nice. 00:28:11.695 --> 00:28:13.475 You know, something really generic. 00:28:13.625 --> 00:28:14.605 I like your shirt. 00:28:14.795 --> 00:28:14.985 Exactly. 00:28:16.765 --> 00:28:21.525 And then once we got the language up there, it was like, I appreciate 00:28:21.535 --> 00:28:24.415 your sense of humor because I was having a tough day and you 00:28:24.415 --> 00:28:25.365 made a joke and made me laugh. 00:28:25.365 --> 00:28:25.855 Thank you. 00:28:25.865 --> 00:28:30.625 You know, it gives voice and opportunity and specificity to those opportunities. 00:28:30.905 --> 00:28:34.485 And, and it gives the opportunity for each teacher to feel like someone sees 00:28:34.485 --> 00:28:38.315 me and they said something nice about me, even if I had the worst day, even if 00:28:38.315 --> 00:28:40.225 I had the best day, that's really cool. 00:28:40.405 --> 00:28:41.295 And I feel good about that. 00:28:41.645 --> 00:28:43.775 I don't think any teacher would rebel against that idea. 00:28:44.639 --> 00:28:48.925 , Frederick: I'm also thinking about the easiest ways maybe to try this out. 00:28:48.975 --> 00:28:52.602 So for me, it's been comfortable doing the way I close it, but , we 00:28:52.602 --> 00:28:54.012 always begin with celebrations. 00:28:54.617 --> 00:28:58.057 We're usually parked at our table or, you know, whatever our kind 00:28:58.057 --> 00:29:03.737 of workspace arrangement is to do that, but we could begin that in a 00:29:03.737 --> 00:29:09.937 circle that could be, isn't that the easiest, simplest circle to do right? 00:29:09.957 --> 00:29:13.097 Hey, before we get going, y'all, let's stay in a circle and go 00:29:13.097 --> 00:29:14.717 around and what are you celebrating? 00:29:14.787 --> 00:29:16.407 And again, you've got choice. 00:29:17.057 --> 00:29:17.377 Right. 00:29:17.417 --> 00:29:20.537 Cause I choose what I celebrate, but you're giving this opportunity 00:29:20.537 --> 00:29:24.447 for connections because as people celebrate, I'm going to hear parts of 00:29:24.447 --> 00:29:26.687 my own life, maybe reflected in that. 00:29:27.277 --> 00:29:31.557 And everybody's getting voice because it's their celebration. 00:29:31.557 --> 00:29:35.777 So you're hitting all three choice connection and self right in that. 00:29:35.787 --> 00:29:37.867 And it's so simple. 00:29:38.357 --> 00:29:38.707 Lindsay: Yeah. 00:29:38.707 --> 00:29:39.637 Oh, I love that. 00:29:39.637 --> 00:29:44.457 And there's more attention paid, I think, to one another sharing versus when you're 00:29:44.457 --> 00:29:47.677 at tables, because then people can be distracted by their phones or, you know, 00:29:47.677 --> 00:29:50.637 you can't hide a cell phone in your lap when there's no furniture in between you. 00:29:50.907 --> 00:29:52.607 So you're looking at the speaker. 00:29:52.937 --> 00:29:58.497 And I also think I used to work for Life is Good Foundation for the Playmakers. 00:29:58.527 --> 00:30:02.297 And they used to always do Positive News Ball as like the share out celebration. 00:30:02.627 --> 00:30:05.797 So I was thinking you could combine this with another circle practice 00:30:05.797 --> 00:30:09.297 I've seen where it's just where you pass a ball around the circle as 00:30:09.307 --> 00:30:10.817 like an imaginary talking piece. 00:30:11.287 --> 00:30:13.857 And you can make it like a really big ball and it's so heavy. 00:30:13.857 --> 00:30:16.147 And then the next person is like hitting it to the next person. 00:30:16.407 --> 00:30:19.657 So you could do like positive news ball or something, and then just have a 00:30:19.657 --> 00:30:22.827 little bit of movement in there too, to just make it, you used the word goofy. 00:30:22.827 --> 00:30:24.717 And I was like, yes, this is the ticket. 00:30:25.797 --> 00:30:26.277 Frederick: I love it. 00:30:26.317 --> 00:30:29.257 It sounds like something that's just so flexible. 00:30:29.267 --> 00:30:33.137 It's something that we can really should do with teachers, right? 00:30:33.177 --> 00:30:34.527 We should be elevating voice. 00:30:34.527 --> 00:30:37.087 And this is a really strong tool for doing that. 00:30:37.367 --> 00:30:38.587 And Oh, by the way. 00:30:38.710 --> 00:30:41.757 Teachers might also embrace it and then use that as a 00:30:41.757 --> 00:30:43.797 tool to elevate student voice. 00:30:43.807 --> 00:30:46.767 So kind of sounds like a win, win, win to me. 00:30:49.497 --> 00:30:52.757 , the only other thing I'm thinking about is to me, this 00:30:52.757 --> 00:30:54.607 seems like this is a procedure,? 00:30:55.117 --> 00:30:59.557 And I know after the second time we've done this with a group, they know 00:30:59.557 --> 00:31:02.667 at the end I put that slide up and everybody's getting up and we're going 00:31:02.667 --> 00:31:05.487 into our circle and, and we're doing it. 00:31:05.497 --> 00:31:05.797 So. 00:31:06.192 --> 00:31:11.285 As a classroom procedure, from a teacher perspective to students, 00:31:11.418 --> 00:31:15.528 are there teaching points that I need to lay out for them? 00:31:15.598 --> 00:31:19.518 And then how would that translate into me as an AP doing this with teachers? 00:31:20.258 --> 00:31:24.198 Lindsay: Yeah, I would do it the same, AP to staff and teacher to students. 00:31:24.843 --> 00:31:29.553 And I think really it is a shared agreement that you 00:31:29.553 --> 00:31:31.573 want to co create if you can. 00:31:31.873 --> 00:31:35.703 If this is the first time you're rolling it out, I would say use a couple 00:31:35.733 --> 00:31:37.833 standard agreements for the procedure. 00:31:37.883 --> 00:31:43.123 So for example, we will always you know, help create a circle with our chairs 00:31:43.133 --> 00:31:44.693 and move the desks out of the way. 00:31:45.153 --> 00:31:46.173 We will... 00:31:46.403 --> 00:31:48.953 We will put our index cards with all the important people's names on 00:31:48.953 --> 00:31:50.273 them in the center as a centerpiece. 00:31:50.383 --> 00:31:54.723 We will pass the talking piece, and I usually do have the caveat that 00:31:54.723 --> 00:31:59.863 they can say pass, but I, I have to require them to say the word pass 00:32:00.833 --> 00:32:03.133 to be able to engage in some way. 00:32:03.143 --> 00:32:04.213 Like, I'm making a choice. 00:32:04.593 --> 00:32:05.743 I'm, I'm choosing to pass. 00:32:06.263 --> 00:32:09.263 And we will, never interrupt. 00:32:09.393 --> 00:32:11.343 And that includes the circle keeper. 00:32:11.403 --> 00:32:15.853 So whether that's the AP facilitating the staff circle or the teacher facilitating 00:32:15.853 --> 00:32:17.953 students unless there's an emergency. 00:32:18.283 --> 00:32:22.553 And so that was really important for me because I was, you know, often as teachers 00:32:22.553 --> 00:32:24.473 and leaders were giving directions. 00:32:25.758 --> 00:32:28.348 Here, you need to comply to these things I'm telling you to do. 00:32:28.768 --> 00:32:32.338 And for this one, it's here's my commitment to you and the circle process. 00:32:33.048 --> 00:32:34.048 I'm not going to interrupt. 00:32:34.098 --> 00:32:38.498 If I see someone talking, I might try to give them eyes, you know, like, but 00:32:38.498 --> 00:32:41.818 I'm not going to speak because that's the commitment I made to you all. 00:32:42.058 --> 00:32:45.758 Unless someone's in imminent danger or someone's being, you know, really 00:32:45.758 --> 00:32:47.198 rude and screaming or something. 00:32:48.198 --> 00:32:50.968 Frederick: And so I can think of those agreements as kind of the. 00:32:51.673 --> 00:32:55.213 The bullet points of teaching, maybe I should call them piece points, given 00:32:55.213 --> 00:33:00.603 what we're talking about , but the main points we're agreeing to hold the circle. 00:33:00.823 --> 00:33:05.970 You can pass, but you need to say pass so that we know, and then 00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:08.370 we are going to hold the space for people and not interrupt. 00:33:09.460 --> 00:33:11.370 Lindsay: The only other thing I would add to that, which is 00:33:11.370 --> 00:33:13.070 actually something that I learned. 00:33:14.150 --> 00:33:20.310 Because this happened is when you create a space like this, even if you're not 00:33:20.310 --> 00:33:26.760 talking about something like, for example, gender based violence, there are some 00:33:26.760 --> 00:33:30.750 students who will feel so comfortable in that space and have not felt that comfort 00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:34.500 anywhere else that they will come up to you afterwards or they will share in the 00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:39.310 circle some sort of something happening in their lives that now as a mandated 00:33:39.310 --> 00:33:41.320 reporter, you have to now do this thing. 00:33:41.320 --> 00:33:46.870 So I have Decided to have that as one of my rules or like kind of like 00:33:46.890 --> 00:33:51.220 asterisk at the bottom of the rules like just so you know If you want to 00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:55.860 share anything that I need to report that includes harm to yourself or others 00:33:56.530 --> 00:33:59.060 I like need to do these next steps. 00:33:59.450 --> 00:34:02.880 Just know that You can absolutely share it, but I don't want to violate 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:06.500 your trust by not telling you ahead of time So for teachers particularly I 00:34:06.510 --> 00:34:09.200 would include that and I like I said, I learned the hard way on that one 00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:13.377 Frederick: I'd never thought about that, but I know exactly what you're 00:34:13.450 --> 00:34:17.820 talking about when somebody opens up something that you were not ready for. 00:34:17.830 --> 00:34:22.313 And in a way it's a beautiful moment and in another way it is scary as hell. 00:34:23.003 --> 00:34:23.593 Lindsay: Absolutely. 00:34:24.377 --> 00:34:25.007 Frederick: Okay. 00:34:25.117 --> 00:34:26.757 Lindsay, this has been fun. 00:34:26.987 --> 00:34:30.997 Hopefully y'all listening are going to think about the next meeting 00:34:30.997 --> 00:34:33.297 you have and it doesn't need to be a room full of people, right? 00:34:33.297 --> 00:34:34.867 We could do this with five people. 00:34:35.220 --> 00:34:37.720 If you're not sure where to start, maybe just start with the 00:34:37.720 --> 00:34:39.230 celebration before you get going. 00:34:39.230 --> 00:34:43.250 Hey, let's stand in a circle and just go around and say what we're celebrating. 00:34:43.345 --> 00:34:48.075 And then it, you can also use it as closing, but then I think you've 00:34:48.075 --> 00:34:52.345 already given some insights into different ways that we could do this. 00:34:52.425 --> 00:34:57.185 And it seems another really easy tip is keeping your prompt kind 00:34:57.185 --> 00:35:02.275 of open ended and let people interpret that any way they want. 00:35:02.285 --> 00:35:04.695 And it's simple way that's going to play out is in celebration. 00:35:04.755 --> 00:35:07.215 Somebody's going to say, well, personal or professional. 00:35:08.373 --> 00:35:09.503 It's up to you, right? 00:35:10.330 --> 00:35:10.860 Absolutely. 00:35:11.140 --> 00:35:12.240 Ah, okay. 00:35:13.850 --> 00:35:15.850 I have a couple more questions for you. 00:35:16.160 --> 00:35:16.420 Yeah. 00:35:17.160 --> 00:35:20.520 Number one, what part of your own leadership are you still 00:35:20.520 --> 00:35:21.410 trying to get better at? 00:35:24.170 --> 00:35:26.240 Lindsay: So many parts to narrow it to one. 00:35:26.270 --> 00:35:26.930 Let's see. 00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:30.640 I want to be a better listener. 00:35:30.830 --> 00:35:33.900 I think Circle is actually, that's one of the reasons I gravitate to it. 00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:36.090 It's a, it's a growth area for me. 00:35:36.290 --> 00:35:41.000 So, I do a lot of talking when I give webinars or presentations, but, like, 00:35:41.020 --> 00:35:47.335 my joy, but also the gap in my skills is, like, being able to sit And truly, 00:35:47.455 --> 00:35:50.535 deeply listen when people are talking. 00:35:50.575 --> 00:35:52.535 And I think, like I said, it's joyful. 00:35:52.645 --> 00:35:54.965 And it's also an area where , I could be so much better. 00:35:55.065 --> 00:35:55.585 Frederick: Thank you. 00:35:56.245 --> 00:36:01.085 If listeners could take away just one thing from today's show, what would it be? 00:36:01.175 --> 00:36:01.675 Practically. 00:36:02.675 --> 00:36:03.265 Lindsay: I'm going to cheat. 00:36:03.305 --> 00:36:07.135 Practically the circle practice and doing that in any way. 00:36:08.130 --> 00:36:12.350 Mindset wise, I think what is more important, but it might be 00:36:12.350 --> 00:36:17.510 less tangible, is the idea and the question of how can I co create today? 00:36:17.520 --> 00:36:19.280 How can I invite voice today? 00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:24.010 Frederick: I think we just hit the title of this podcast show. 00:36:24.240 --> 00:36:24.580 Excellent. 00:36:24.660 --> 00:36:25.560 Lindsay: I love those moments. 00:36:26.110 --> 00:36:27.677 Frederick: That is such a great thing. 00:36:27.677 --> 00:36:31.483 And I think if there was only one thing I could say to a leader every 00:36:31.483 --> 00:36:37.983 morning, it would be be present, look for opportunities to be present. 00:36:38.093 --> 00:36:43.337 And I bring that up because I think that this idea of co creation 00:36:43.337 --> 00:36:44.957 and presence go hand in hand. 00:36:45.477 --> 00:36:47.847 If I'm fully present, we're co creating. 00:36:48.028 --> 00:36:51.328 And if we're not able to co create, it's because we're not 00:36:51.658 --> 00:36:53.978 present and they go together. 00:36:53.978 --> 00:36:55.768 So I just think that's so beautiful. 00:36:55.768 --> 00:37:02.258 And I thank you for giving us another, lens through which to view relationships 00:37:02.258 --> 00:37:04.438 and what creates a quality relationship. 00:37:05.568 --> 00:37:06.708 Lindsay: Thank you for the opportunity. 00:37:06.738 --> 00:37:07.808 This has been so fun. 00:37:08.598 --> 00:37:09.608 Frederick: Yes, it has. 00:37:09.888 --> 00:37:13.958 And Lindsay, where can people find out more about you and your work? 00:37:13.958 --> 00:37:14.388 Where can they? 00:37:14.758 --> 00:37:18.738 Tap into some of those resources and you're going to tell us, but I 00:37:18.738 --> 00:37:21.998 know you do a lot of tremendous work with schools and school districts 00:37:22.018 --> 00:37:27.488 and helping them, embrace and work through what can be really challenging. 00:37:28.208 --> 00:37:29.718 So necessary practices. 00:37:29.728 --> 00:37:31.248 So let's learn more about what you're 00:37:31.248 --> 00:37:31.518 Lindsay: doing. 00:37:32.038 --> 00:37:33.748 Thank you so much for the opportunity. 00:37:33.748 --> 00:37:36.488 So I am on lindsaybethlyons. 00:37:36.498 --> 00:37:37.018 com. 00:37:37.048 --> 00:37:39.018 That's my website and everything is there. 00:37:39.018 --> 00:37:41.438 So there's a podcast called Time for Teachership. 00:37:41.748 --> 00:37:43.148 Like the guests are amazing. 00:37:43.148 --> 00:37:44.298 Frederick's going to be on my podcast. 00:37:44.818 --> 00:37:47.418 So everyone tuned into that episode and. 00:37:47.503 --> 00:37:49.783 I have a lot of my, you know, offers on there. 00:37:49.783 --> 00:37:51.563 But primarily what I do are , two things. 00:37:51.593 --> 00:37:53.543 One is the pedagogy of student voice. 00:37:53.843 --> 00:37:55.553 So how do we literally build that up? 00:37:55.553 --> 00:37:58.223 How do we coach teachers and coach leadership teams to 00:37:58.223 --> 00:38:00.023 support teachers structurally? 00:38:00.053 --> 00:38:03.793 'cause that's important with those opportunities to co-create. 00:38:04.273 --> 00:38:07.303 And then the other piece, which is very closely related, is designing 00:38:07.303 --> 00:38:09.553 curriculum for justice and co-creation. 00:38:09.553 --> 00:38:14.313 And so that's really tough to grapple with all the choices that 00:38:14.313 --> 00:38:15.303 you need to make when you're. 00:38:15.693 --> 00:38:18.903 You're designing curriculum for intersectional justice, but then also 00:38:19.163 --> 00:38:24.173 when you're co creating, how do you design a curriculum ahead of time that 00:38:24.183 --> 00:38:28.623 gives flexibility and space for co creation with each new group of students 00:38:28.813 --> 00:38:30.333 that you teach the unit to, right? 00:38:30.613 --> 00:38:34.923 So it's, it's a real balance and it's definitely an art and 00:38:34.923 --> 00:38:38.273 I absolutely love working with departments to create some new units. 00:38:38.273 --> 00:38:44.023 Right now, I've had an influx of ideas and questions around US history. 00:38:44.458 --> 00:38:45.478 Unit revisions. 00:38:45.498 --> 00:38:49.048 And so that's been a big topic of conversation for folks lately, but, 00:38:49.058 --> 00:38:52.758 you know, also people who are like, I want to teach art for justice. 00:38:52.758 --> 00:38:53.938 And so what is that like? 00:38:54.178 --> 00:38:57.318 So there's been some really cool creation happening in that front. 00:38:58.558 --> 00:38:59.188 Frederick: That's great. 00:38:59.208 --> 00:39:00.188 Thank you for sharing. 00:39:00.908 --> 00:39:04.328 Lindsay, is there anything else before we leave that you would 00:39:04.388 --> 00:39:06.108 like to leave our listeners? 00:39:08.418 --> 00:39:12.278 Lindsay: I think just that Michael Fielding in the, in the student voice 00:39:12.428 --> 00:39:18.288 researcher space talks about this idea of radical collegiality, this idea of 00:39:18.288 --> 00:39:24.668 seeing students as colleagues and partners is just so profound to me and really 00:39:24.668 --> 00:39:26.038 speaks to what we've been talking about. 00:39:26.053 --> 00:39:29.743 About there's that idea of the intersection of, you know, in 00:39:29.783 --> 00:39:32.693 instruction and human ness, right? 00:39:32.693 --> 00:39:36.463 The learning and the human pieces that, that blend together when we're truly in 00:39:36.463 --> 00:39:40.293 partnership with students and what we end up co creating both in the classroom, 00:39:40.353 --> 00:39:44.543 pedagogically, instructionally, but also for the school community, right? 00:39:44.543 --> 00:39:48.123 When we partner with students in that kind of colleague way is just profound. 00:39:48.313 --> 00:39:50.343 So I guess I would just leave it with that concept. 00:39:51.783 --> 00:39:53.273 Frederick: Lindsay, thank you so much. 00:39:53.273 --> 00:39:54.463 This has been so much fun. 00:39:54.503 --> 00:39:58.143 You've brought so much for us to be able to enact in a concrete 00:39:58.143 --> 00:40:02.043 way, but I think also so much to think about on the drive home. 00:40:03.523 --> 00:40:03.743 Lindsay: Excellent. 00:40:03.743 --> 00:40:04.743 Thanks so much, Frederick. 00:40:05.253 --> 00:40:05.653 All right. 00:40:05.653 --> 00:40:06.423 Frederick: Take care, Lindsay. 00:40:06.723 --> 00:40:07.143 You too. 00:40:07.693 --> 00:40:08.123 Bye. 00:40:09.123 --> 00:40:12.303 This was one of those wonderful interviews where I experienced 00:40:12.303 --> 00:40:13.863 a couple of lightbulb moments. 00:40:14.573 --> 00:40:18.752 Lindsay and I had met previously to outline the show and agreed to focus on 00:40:18.752 --> 00:40:23.172 the circle practice as an example of a practice for enhancing student voice. 00:40:23.862 --> 00:40:28.332 Lindsay had suggested that APs could use this in their own work to model the 00:40:28.332 --> 00:40:30.882 practice, so I knew we were going there. 00:40:31.602 --> 00:40:35.392 It was only in the middle of the episode that the light bulb went off for me, and 00:40:35.392 --> 00:40:40.472 I realized that we were teaching you, my colleague, to empower teacher voice. 00:40:41.287 --> 00:40:43.177 And I love the term co creation. 00:40:43.837 --> 00:40:47.847 I advocate for teachers to lead their own growth, to lead in identifying 00:40:47.847 --> 00:40:50.027 their goals and the process for growing. 00:40:50.617 --> 00:40:54.367 I advocate that they lead, but not that they go it alone. 00:40:54.667 --> 00:40:57.807 And the word co creation captures what I haven't really 00:40:57.807 --> 00:40:59.687 been fully able to articulate. 00:41:01.127 --> 00:41:05.747 We need to work with our teachers, and in so doing, we provide choice, create 00:41:05.747 --> 00:41:08.507 connection, and lift up individual voices. 00:41:09.497 --> 00:41:11.977 I encourage you to try using a simple circle. 00:41:12.507 --> 00:41:17.387 If we want teachers to grow, then we also need to model our own efforts to grow. 00:41:17.857 --> 00:41:20.237 If this feels challenging, be transparent. 00:41:20.671 --> 00:41:24.781 You can say something like, I heard about this way to help me listen better to 00:41:24.781 --> 00:41:26.911 you, and I thought I would try it out. 00:41:26.951 --> 00:41:29.681 If it doesn't work, blame the podcast folks. 00:41:30.111 --> 00:41:31.491 And then go for it. 00:41:32.125 --> 00:41:34.675 A smaller group will be easier than a larger one. 00:41:34.735 --> 00:41:36.905 Maybe a team meeting or something similar. 00:41:37.560 --> 00:41:40.420 The important thing is to try it and see what happens. 00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:46.040 Remember there will be links to Lindsay and her resources in the show notes. 00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:50.150 If you want to learn more about me and my materials, you can go to frederickbuskey. 00:41:50.190 --> 00:41:52.510 com and that link is also in the show notes. 00:41:53.115 --> 00:41:56.735 I look forward to seeing you again on Friday when we recap the week's 00:41:56.735 --> 00:42:00.935 daily emails, please remember to subscribe and rate this podcast 00:42:01.215 --> 00:42:02.915 rating the show helps others find it. 00:42:02.935 --> 00:42:06.445 And if you want to be a super fan, consider leaving a review. 00:42:07.895 --> 00:42:11.355 I'm Frederick Buskey, and thank you again for joining me on this episode 00:42:11.355 --> 00:42:13.475 of the assistant principal podcast. 00:42:13.755 --> 00:42:14.235 Cheers.