WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.539 Michele: You can save up to 80% of your hosting costs by 00:00:03.539 --> 00:00:05.009 switching to Flight control. 00:00:05.460 --> 00:00:10.090 Flight control is a new deployment platform by the creator of blitz. 00:00:10.390 --> 00:00:15.520 JS that solves the age- old Heroku versus AWS trade-off by bringing 00:00:15.520 --> 00:00:19.450 the Heroku- style developer experience natively to AWS. 00:00:19.750 --> 00:00:24.940 The beauty of Flight control is that it doesn't require any AWS skills, but 00:00:24.940 --> 00:00:30.130 since it deploys to your AWS account, you have the ability to inspect and 00:00:30.130 --> 00:00:32.590 tweak anything should the need arise. 00:00:32.986 --> 00:00:36.256 Flight control works with any language or framework. 00:00:36.556 --> 00:00:39.736 It supports servers, static sites and database. 00:00:40.726 --> 00:00:46.426 Sign up at flightcontrol.dev and use the code software social to get 00:00:46.426 --> 00:00:49.576 20% off your first three months. 00:00:49.876 --> 00:00:50.746 Hey, Colleen. 00:00:51.046 --> 00:00:52.156 Colleen: Good morning, Michelle. 00:00:52.453 --> 00:00:55.153 Michele: I think this is episode number 85. 00:00:55.453 --> 00:00:55.993 Colleen: Cool. 00:00:56.323 --> 00:00:57.553 It's a lot of episodes. 00:00:57.643 --> 00:01:00.913 Michele: Yeah, and you know, something got me thinking the other day, 00:01:00.943 --> 00:01:03.823 actually, I meant to reach out to them before I talked about this, 00:01:03.823 --> 00:01:05.093 but I guess I'll just do that after. 00:01:05.393 --> 00:01:11.063 So, I saw that some guys started a podcast for two founders talking 00:01:11.063 --> 00:01:13.786 about, you know, starting indie businesses and stuff like that. 00:01:14.026 --> 00:01:14.585 Awesome. 00:01:14.606 --> 00:01:17.906 People seem to like these podcasts where founders talk to each other 00:01:17.906 --> 00:01:22.106 about starting companies, and they're just launching, and they were able to 00:01:22.106 --> 00:01:25.676 sell ads for over $600 each episode. 00:01:25.676 --> 00:01:26.846 Colleen: So, tell me about these guys. 00:01:27.146 --> 00:01:32.436 Michele: So it's James McClellan from Indie Bites, I think I've said his 00:01:32.436 --> 00:01:35.866 name wrong, and then Dan Rowdone, who's like an build in public guy. 00:01:35.956 --> 00:01:37.186 So they're launching a podcast. 00:01:37.216 --> 00:01:37.936 Super cool. 00:01:37.936 --> 00:01:41.146 But, they did this thing where they launched a form, actually with 00:01:41.146 --> 00:01:45.106 reform, right, peter's saying reform connected to Stripe. 00:01:45.136 --> 00:01:47.446 So people could just like go on the calendar and pick a date. 00:01:47.446 --> 00:01:50.266 And then, they just kept, I guess, kept raising the rates 00:01:50.326 --> 00:01:52.246 until people stopped buying it. 00:01:52.246 --> 00:01:56.596 But, they got to over 600 pounds per episode over, which is over $600. 00:01:56.663 --> 00:02:00.374 And like people were buying them, and that's so awesome for them. 00:02:00.374 --> 00:02:03.824 But, on the one hand, it kinda made me think we're doing something wrong 00:02:03.824 --> 00:02:05.804 with the business of this podcast. 00:02:05.892 --> 00:02:10.417 I mean, now granted, Dan has 30,000 followers, and neither one of us does. 00:02:10.417 --> 00:02:13.087 I mean, even the two of us, like we're normal people. 00:02:13.087 --> 00:02:16.982 We're not Twitter, you know big deals, but still kind of thinking, you know, 00:02:16.982 --> 00:02:22.019 like we've been steadily raising our rates for ads, but we're nowhere close to that. 00:02:22.049 --> 00:02:24.809 And it's kind of like, should we, or I dunno, I guess that's all 00:02:24.829 --> 00:02:28.469 I wanted to talk about, like the business of this podcast, basically. 00:02:28.469 --> 00:02:32.689 And, people have been super conversational in the Twitter community 00:02:32.689 --> 00:02:35.032 I got to make, and so we're going to talk about it here, but maybe our 00:02:35.032 --> 00:02:36.462 listeners can jump in with ideas. 00:02:36.860 --> 00:02:40.040 How we could better monetize this podcast and maybe that's ads 00:02:40.040 --> 00:02:41.750 with me is like other things too. 00:02:41.755 --> 00:02:45.025 Because I just feel like maybe we're, you know, like we put a lot of 00:02:45.025 --> 00:02:48.285 time into this, and a lot of people listen to it, and maybe this is 00:02:48.285 --> 00:02:50.355 worth more than we're charging for. 00:02:50.445 --> 00:02:50.715 Colleen: Okay. 00:02:50.715 --> 00:02:52.255 I have lots of thoughts on this. 00:02:52.315 --> 00:02:52.405 I 00:02:52.635 --> 00:02:52.785 Michele: Okay. 00:02:53.185 --> 00:02:58.975 Colleen: thing to think about is we don't structure this podcast like a business. 00:02:58.975 --> 00:03:01.015 We're not actively trying to grow it. 00:03:01.285 --> 00:03:04.778 I think if we want to bring in more ad dollars, we need listeners. 00:03:04.778 --> 00:03:07.548 And I know we have a lot, but you know, Rob Wallen gets 00:03:07.578 --> 00:03:09.908 thousand 10, 20,000 an episode. 00:03:09.908 --> 00:03:13.351 So I think we need to figure out if that's what we want to do. 00:03:13.351 --> 00:03:17.131 And If we do want to do that, there's a lot of things we could do 00:03:17.131 --> 00:03:20.341 to actively grow our listenership. 00:03:20.746 --> 00:03:21.736 Michele: If we want to do that. 00:03:22.036 --> 00:03:24.886 Colleen: Honestly, the thing about podcast sponsorship is I don't 00:03:24.886 --> 00:03:26.956 know that it's super effective. 00:03:26.986 --> 00:03:28.066 I didn't even tell you this. 00:03:28.066 --> 00:03:28.876 So you're going to love this. 00:03:28.906 --> 00:03:34.456 Okay, so someone from a VC backed startup reached out to me, and 00:03:34.876 --> 00:03:40.756 they are trying to find a way to use podcasts to reach more people. 00:03:41.146 --> 00:03:44.896 And their mission like fit in really well with our audience. 00:03:45.196 --> 00:03:49.276 But what he said, and again, they presumably have a fair amount of money 00:03:49.306 --> 00:03:53.016 cause they're funded is, they have found that ads just aren't really effective, 00:03:53.016 --> 00:03:55.566 and he wanted to do sponsored podcasts. 00:03:56.046 --> 00:03:59.616 So he wanted to have one of his men, he has, it's a mentorship company, 00:03:59.886 --> 00:04:04.686 one of his mentors come on our podcast and basically to a sponsor podcast, 00:04:04.696 --> 00:04:07.326 which is a whole different business model that we've never talked about. 00:04:07.626 --> 00:04:12.586 But, his opinion was that was a lot, they got a lot more return 00:04:12.586 --> 00:04:13.696 on that kind of investment. 00:04:13.726 --> 00:04:17.536 So, what I'm saying is maybe ads aren't the best way to monetize a podcast. 00:04:17.836 --> 00:04:19.996 And, I just think we need more listeners. 00:04:19.996 --> 00:04:23.866 Like our listenership is steadily growing, but if we really want 00:04:23.866 --> 00:04:27.436 it to grow, we need to like your episode with Arvid, did he play that. 00:04:27.436 --> 00:04:27.676 on his. 00:04:28.176 --> 00:04:29.226 Michele: Uh, I don't think so. 00:04:29.526 --> 00:04:31.116 Colleen: So we should start doing stuff like that. 00:04:31.516 --> 00:04:32.646 I'm down to do it. 00:04:32.646 --> 00:04:36.546 I just think that we got to figure out what we want, if we want to go that route. 00:04:36.846 --> 00:04:37.506 Michele: Let's back up. 00:04:37.596 --> 00:04:38.556 Let's back up for a second. 00:04:38.736 --> 00:04:44.051 So I ran the numbers on this, like I think there's the conversation of how 00:04:44.051 --> 00:04:45.731 much of a business do we want this to be? 00:04:45.731 --> 00:04:47.641 And I have so many thoughts on that. 00:04:47.641 --> 00:04:49.141 And like, why do we even do this in the first place? 00:04:49.621 --> 00:04:52.411 But I think we just need to start with the numbers, just so we all 00:04:52.411 --> 00:04:54.451 have a sense of where that's at. 00:04:54.511 --> 00:04:54.871 Okay. 00:04:55.291 --> 00:04:59.881 So year number one, 20 20, we're in year, number three of this podcast. 00:04:59.881 --> 00:05:00.181 Okay. 00:05:00.481 --> 00:05:00.811 Sorry. 00:05:01.051 --> 00:05:07.287 So your number one, we paid transistor about $500 and we paid a hundred 00:05:07.287 --> 00:05:10.947 dollars for otter.ai for transcription. 00:05:10.977 --> 00:05:14.437 And we had zero sponsors. 00:05:14.507 --> 00:05:16.817 Well I guess like, geocodio to the sponsor? 00:05:16.844 --> 00:05:23.731 So for 2020, this podcast was negative $618 and 94 cents. 00:05:24.031 --> 00:05:27.661 Not including the cost of me buying a mic and any expenses you may have. 00:05:27.756 --> 00:05:28.416 Colleen: Oh, that stuff. 00:05:28.506 --> 00:05:28.926 Yep. 00:05:29.131 --> 00:05:31.951 Michele: Yeah, but so basically negative 600 bucks for the first year. 00:05:32.431 --> 00:05:32.821 Cool. 00:05:33.091 --> 00:05:37.381 20 21, we started having sponsors because balsamic reached out to us. 00:05:37.381 --> 00:05:41.161 We hadn't even considered having sponsors, and then they reached 00:05:41.161 --> 00:05:42.331 out and wanted the sponsor. 00:05:42.331 --> 00:05:44.731 Actually, I didn't even reply their email for like two months because it 00:05:44.731 --> 00:05:47.611 went to our software, social inbox, and I never checked it and it was 00:05:47.611 --> 00:05:48.991 like, oh, somebody wants to pay us. 00:05:49.291 --> 00:05:51.061 And then we were like, do we want to do that? 00:05:51.061 --> 00:05:52.756 Is going to make it like fun. 00:05:52.756 --> 00:05:56.566 Is it going to feel more like work and you were like, yeah hi, I'm like trying 00:05:56.566 --> 00:06:00.946 to get something off the ground here, it would be really useful to have like money. 00:06:01.286 --> 00:06:02.516 Colleen: of us need the money Michelle. 00:06:03.616 --> 00:06:04.246 Michele: That's fair. 00:06:04.456 --> 00:06:05.146 That's fair. 00:06:05.506 --> 00:06:08.086 So we took, thank you, balsamic. 00:06:08.104 --> 00:06:14.085 We took that we charged them $500, I think for more than a month's worth, 00:06:14.115 --> 00:06:18.405 I think it was like six or eight weeks anyway, so that was $62 and 50 cents 00:06:18.405 --> 00:06:20.985 per episode was the first ad we sold. 00:06:21.465 --> 00:06:25.915 And I did some research based on it's like CPM is a thing that like cost 00:06:25.915 --> 00:06:30.097 per million, which is X, like cost per thousand listens that like transistor had. 00:06:30.097 --> 00:06:32.947 It was really hard to figure out like what to charge for a 00:06:32.947 --> 00:06:36.535 podcast add, um, especially when you're a little one like us. 00:06:36.559 --> 00:06:38.647 But that felt reasonable and they were willing to pay it. 00:06:38.857 --> 00:06:39.817 So cool. 00:06:39.837 --> 00:06:47.092 So all in all throughout last year we actually ended up getting $4,700 in ad 00:06:47.092 --> 00:06:53.212 revenue, slowly raising our rates up to about depending on how long people 00:06:53.212 --> 00:06:56.722 bought for either a hundred or $94. 00:06:56.782 --> 00:07:01.085 And then our expenses were the same, a transistor and Otter. 00:07:01.355 --> 00:07:10.685 So we ended with $4,111 last year, and then this year, so our expenses 00:07:10.685 --> 00:07:14.405 will be going up because we had not only have transistor and Otter. 00:07:14.405 --> 00:07:16.595 Did you buy a paid descript? 00:07:17.070 --> 00:07:18.420 Colleen: Yeah, I bought paid descript. 00:07:18.515 --> 00:07:19.505 Michele: How much was that? 00:07:19.805 --> 00:07:22.505 Colleen: I don't remember 15 bucks a month or something. 00:07:22.535 --> 00:07:25.415 I mean, I use that for myself personally as well. 00:07:25.415 --> 00:07:30.005 So I consider that a Colleen business's expense, not a software social business. 00:07:30.260 --> 00:07:30.770 Michele: Okay. 00:07:31.220 --> 00:07:35.300 But then we also have, you know, we paid Zencaster for post-production, we're 00:07:35.300 --> 00:07:39.470 paying someone to do additional editing and help with getting the episodes loaded 00:07:39.470 --> 00:07:43.760 in and adding the ads on and stuff like that, which is $50 an episode. 00:07:43.790 --> 00:07:44.210 Right. 00:07:44.210 --> 00:07:46.580 And has that been every episode so far this year? 00:07:46.880 --> 00:07:49.430 Colleen: We just started what three episodes ago. 00:07:49.570 --> 00:07:53.160 Michele: Okay, so that's only $150 so far. 00:07:53.490 --> 00:07:58.476 So then all in all, with our sponsorships sold through the end of April including 00:07:58.476 --> 00:08:02.826 the expenses we are at at a net of just under a thousand dollars so far this year. 00:08:03.126 --> 00:08:05.616 Colleen: And what does that project out at the current rate? 00:08:06.036 --> 00:08:09.396 If we continue to have a podcast editor will, we're not increasing. 00:08:09.516 --> 00:08:10.926 It depends if we increase, I guess. 00:08:11.061 --> 00:08:12.891 Michele: Yeah, actually, I haven't done a projection. 00:08:12.952 --> 00:08:16.122 So it'd be a great use case for Matt Wensing thing's tool summit, 00:08:16.152 --> 00:08:18.072 but I just have a spreadsheet. 00:08:18.372 --> 00:08:18.802 Sorry. 00:08:18.857 --> 00:08:24.419 Yeah, I mean, I think it would be reasonable if we end up probably around 00:08:24.419 --> 00:08:29.222 that $4,000 mark again, because our expenses are going up and yes, our rates 00:08:29.222 --> 00:08:32.592 are going up, but like I ran through like a million things in my head about this, 00:08:32.592 --> 00:08:34.452 like could we have, you know, two ads? 00:08:34.452 --> 00:08:37.532 So we currently have one ad, could we have two ads in the beginning, but then 00:08:37.532 --> 00:08:39.032 like, does everybody just skip those? 00:08:39.062 --> 00:08:39.452 Right. 00:08:39.482 --> 00:08:42.332 Or, I don't know, should they be mid roll instead? 00:08:42.332 --> 00:08:44.852 Which is when it's like halfway through the episode, but is that knowing. 00:08:44.852 --> 00:08:49.273 Other things like sponsored episodes or some people suggested swag that feels 00:08:49.273 --> 00:08:51.643 really complicated, so here's the thing. 00:08:51.733 --> 00:08:52.063 Okay. 00:08:52.303 --> 00:08:54.973 Let me, I'm going to brain dump on you. 00:08:55.053 --> 00:08:55.983 Colleen: Know, I'm here for it. 00:08:56.013 --> 00:08:56.583 Let's do it 00:08:56.883 --> 00:08:58.233 Michele: And you're like, you know, this is coming. 00:08:59.201 --> 00:09:01.241 Why do we do this podcast in the first place? 00:09:01.241 --> 00:09:04.451 What was the number one reason we started this podcast 00:09:04.751 --> 00:09:09.251 Colleen: To be a different and hopefully inspirational voice for 00:09:09.251 --> 00:09:11.531 people trying to start their businesses. 00:09:11.933 --> 00:09:14.988 Michele: That is a wonderful professional elevator pitch for 00:09:14.988 --> 00:09:17.778 our podcast, but it is not the true reason we started this podcast. 00:09:18.983 --> 00:09:20.993 Colleen: The real reason is so we could keep hanging out. 00:09:21.223 --> 00:09:21.883 Michele: Correct. 00:09:22.363 --> 00:09:26.833 So the real reason is to force us to talk to each other each week, even 00:09:26.833 --> 00:09:32.893 though we are, you know, an ocean and lots of land baths away from each 00:09:32.893 --> 00:09:37.750 other that was the reason, right, is our own loneliness in being founders. 00:09:38.050 --> 00:09:38.680 That was it. 00:09:38.980 --> 00:09:42.180 And to keep us talking to each other, but our own loneliness and then force 00:09:42.180 --> 00:09:45.717 us to have an appointment to talk to each other, which honestly, I wish I 00:09:45.717 --> 00:09:47.757 had podcasts with all of my friends. 00:09:47.757 --> 00:09:48.087 Also. 00:09:48.087 --> 00:09:50.967 I wish all of my friends had podcasts, so I could listen to them. 00:09:50.967 --> 00:09:53.607 Like everybody should have just a podcast. 00:09:53.647 --> 00:09:54.537 That's my opinion. 00:09:54.625 --> 00:09:57.955 So our own loneliness, but then also as we started doing this, you know, we 00:09:57.955 --> 00:10:01.405 realized where these other things of like, Hey, there really aren't any women 00:10:01.495 --> 00:10:06.655 talking about like running an indie business, like, especially in indie SAS. 00:10:06.699 --> 00:10:09.729 Of course now, there's Benedicte Benedicte is on slow and steady. 00:10:09.773 --> 00:10:13.512 And, I guess Nicole from WebinarNinja has her podcast less focused. 00:10:13.532 --> 00:10:14.442 It's a little bit of business. 00:10:14.481 --> 00:10:17.481 I love it, but it's not a founder right along podcasts where to like 00:10:17.481 --> 00:10:20.721 we are, but like there still aren't really a lot of women and it's actually 00:10:20.721 --> 00:10:24.171 Benedicte from the slow and steady podcast was one of the people that 00:10:24.171 --> 00:10:26.091 was like, you guys should do this. 00:10:26.091 --> 00:10:28.881 Like there aren't any women podcasting, and we had joked about it. 00:10:29.181 --> 00:10:30.761 So that was kind of that thing going on. 00:10:30.761 --> 00:10:33.851 But then I think as we started doing this from the early episodes, we 00:10:33.851 --> 00:10:40.614 realized that Beyond solving our own sense of isolation that we could help 00:10:40.674 --> 00:10:45.714 other people feel less alone because just most of us don't have anybody in 00:10:45.714 --> 00:10:51.444 our daily lives who is trying to run a small internet business on their own. 00:10:51.444 --> 00:10:51.834 Like, 00:10:52.134 --> 00:10:52.644 Colleen: I know 00:10:52.784 --> 00:10:54.914 Michele: you know, I have this t-shirt, this is, I have a fake internet 00:10:54.914 --> 00:10:58.694 business because like that's what most people in our daily lives think we do. 00:10:59.194 --> 00:11:00.814 Colleen: even my own, Husband's confused. 00:11:00.814 --> 00:11:02.614 He's like, what, what are you doing? 00:11:02.764 --> 00:11:03.394 I don't get 00:11:03.694 --> 00:11:04.654 Michele: His job is very easy. 00:11:04.654 --> 00:11:05.794 He flies a helicopter. 00:11:05.944 --> 00:11:11.224 Very easy to explain you have an image uploading software. 00:11:11.254 --> 00:11:12.364 Colleen: no one understands. 00:11:12.739 --> 00:11:15.259 It's like, why don't you go real job, real money. 00:11:16.849 --> 00:11:17.329 Just kidding. 00:11:17.329 --> 00:11:17.929 He's never said 00:11:17.929 --> 00:11:18.109 That. 00:11:18.409 --> 00:11:22.676 Michele: he is very wonderful in supporting um, But, so we realized 00:11:22.676 --> 00:11:26.156 that there was kind of this almost a space for like the community and 00:11:26.156 --> 00:11:27.896 this to, of like other founders. 00:11:27.896 --> 00:11:30.866 And also having other founders be part of the conversation too. 00:11:30.866 --> 00:11:33.506 And so being not just about like, through art, sharing our own 00:11:33.506 --> 00:11:38.666 journeys, I guess, helping other people feel less alone, right? 00:11:38.666 --> 00:11:42.929 Like Bernay brown says that, you know, the only feeling worse than shame is feeling. 00:11:43.432 --> 00:11:47.812 And so helping other people feel less alone, but then also, like not, I think 00:11:47.812 --> 00:11:50.992 we've talked about this, like podcasts in general, there's kind of this like, oh, 00:11:50.992 --> 00:11:57.982 let's get a big, you know, barky guests on, like, and that is just not us at all. 00:11:58.062 --> 00:12:00.942 We look for people who have something interesting to say who more people 00:12:00.942 --> 00:12:05.172 should know about rather than somebody who is already a big deal in most cases. 00:12:05.172 --> 00:12:05.472 Right? 00:12:05.622 --> 00:12:07.572 You don't have to already been a success. 00:12:07.572 --> 00:12:08.862 You don't have to have sold your company. 00:12:08.862 --> 00:12:11.562 You don't have to be making millions of dollars a year. 00:12:11.712 --> 00:12:16.092 If anything, it's almost more interesting if you're not making anything or right. 00:12:16.092 --> 00:12:18.192 Like, cause that's where most people are. 00:12:18.192 --> 00:12:22.272 And that's what helps us feel less alone in all of this. 00:12:22.572 --> 00:12:27.612 And so none of those three reasons, I just listed have anything to do with making 00:12:28.937 --> 00:12:29.297 Colleen: Right. 00:12:29.772 --> 00:12:31.095 Michele: like at all. 00:12:31.490 --> 00:12:31.880 Colleen: I think 00:12:31.880 --> 00:12:34.700 that making money just happened to us 00:12:35.675 --> 00:12:36.515 Michele: which is good, 00:12:36.545 --> 00:12:36.695 you 00:12:36.695 --> 00:12:37.025 know? 00:12:37.445 --> 00:12:37.895 Yeah. 00:12:37.955 --> 00:12:38.885 I mean, Hey. 00:12:39.335 --> 00:12:43.055 But it's also like, well, and I look at our list of sponsors too, and 00:12:43.055 --> 00:12:45.245 it's like, these are our friends. 00:12:45.395 --> 00:12:48.905 I don't know if I would feel right, okay maybe we could charge, I 00:12:48.905 --> 00:12:51.995 don't even know if we could charge $500 an episode, quite frankly. 00:12:52.055 --> 00:12:55.085 Again, people are probably paying for the fact that Dan Routan has 00:12:55.085 --> 00:12:56.405 like 30,000 Twitter followers. 00:12:56.405 --> 00:12:58.685 And so there's going to be a lot of reach that we're not getting. 00:12:59.045 --> 00:13:00.245 Colleen: We got to have him on the pod. 00:13:00.815 --> 00:13:02.045 Michele: Yeah, I guess so now that we're 00:13:02.315 --> 00:13:04.655 Colleen: um, we got to reach out to him and ask him to come 00:13:04.655 --> 00:13:06.095 on the pod and talk about this. 00:13:06.095 --> 00:13:07.115 But anyway, continue on. 00:13:07.305 --> 00:13:09.435 Michele: There's an episode I recorded with James, like 00:13:09.465 --> 00:13:12.165 months ago that will come out. 00:13:12.165 --> 00:13:13.661 So I've been on his, but yeah. 00:13:13.693 --> 00:13:14.323 Where was I? 00:13:14.383 --> 00:13:18.103 Okay, so maybe we could charge $500 nip. 00:13:18.103 --> 00:13:20.503 So maybe we could charge $250 an episode. 00:13:20.533 --> 00:13:24.583 I don't know, but like, I don't want to milk our friends for money. 00:13:24.613 --> 00:13:27.073 Like I feel weird about that, especially where. 00:13:27.875 --> 00:13:29.525 Actively trying to make money on this. 00:13:29.525 --> 00:13:33.005 And we are actually kind of talking the other day of like, what is 00:13:33.005 --> 00:13:34.415 the point of making money with it? 00:13:34.415 --> 00:13:37.865 Like, yes, we have these expenses, but we're also putting a lot of time into it. 00:13:38.285 --> 00:13:42.665 And you propose the idea that it becomes the Michelle and Colleen conference fund, 00:13:43.145 --> 00:13:47.705 which funds basically the two of us doing our little founder retreat once a year 00:13:47.705 --> 00:13:52.169 to a conference like founder summit or something else, which I really like. 00:13:52.289 --> 00:13:52.559 Colleen: Okay. 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:54.659 So I think there's a lot of problems here. 00:13:54.689 --> 00:13:54.989 Okay. 00:13:54.989 --> 00:13:59.069 I think the first problem Is to your point, our founders, I'm sorry, 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:02.399 our sponsors tend to be people we know, and that are our friends. 00:14:02.849 --> 00:14:04.169 I think that's the first problem. 00:14:04.229 --> 00:14:07.679 I think if we need to decide what we know, it's not bad. 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:09.839 It's great that our friends want to support us. 00:14:10.139 --> 00:14:14.219 But, we need to get, if we're going to be see if, and again, we have to decide 00:14:14.219 --> 00:14:18.539 if we want to be serious about it, then we need to figure out how do you find 00:14:18.539 --> 00:14:20.639 podcast sponsors outside of Twitter? 00:14:20.789 --> 00:14:24.029 Michele: I mean, do we want to go like cold pitch people to be sponsors? 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:25.839 Colleen: there's gotta be a marketplace for this. 00:14:25.899 --> 00:14:26.559 This has gotta be 00:14:26.589 --> 00:14:28.299 Michele: I'll actually somebody told me about one. 00:14:28.609 --> 00:14:29.629 Colleen: guarantee it exists. 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:31.769 Michele: But like, do we even have the analytics though? 00:14:31.819 --> 00:14:35.119 Cause I had somebody reach out to me who I like didn't know them. 00:14:35.119 --> 00:14:38.918 Didn't know the company didn't, you know, not a friend and like they were 00:14:38.918 --> 00:14:43.498 asking for all these analytics on our demographics and all this kind of 00:14:43.498 --> 00:14:45.058 stuff of who listens to the podcast. 00:14:45.058 --> 00:14:47.668 And I didn't have any of that information and like, Yes. 00:14:47.668 --> 00:14:51.628 We're still running the survey on our listeners, which you should go to our 00:14:51.898 --> 00:14:54.598 Twitter and take it as the pinch tweet. 00:14:54.610 --> 00:14:58.102 But like, I feel like a real legit professional podcast would say, oh 00:14:58.102 --> 00:15:01.132 yes, our average listener is this income and they're this position. 00:15:01.132 --> 00:15:06.022 And like, they buy this much, you know, like sort of stuff that like 00:15:06.052 --> 00:15:07.822 consumer brands would want to know. 00:15:08.122 --> 00:15:08.422 Colleen: right. 00:15:08.437 --> 00:15:10.417 Michele: Like, and then they just like dropped off. 00:15:10.487 --> 00:15:13.757 I sent them what we had and with our listener data and 00:15:13.757 --> 00:15:15.047 they never replied to me. 00:15:15.377 --> 00:15:19.637 So I just kinda got this feeling that we're just not like legit 00:15:19.637 --> 00:15:23.267 enough for like real sponsors from people who don't know us. 00:15:23.567 --> 00:15:27.077 Colleen: Here's the thing is, this is when we started it to your point. 00:15:27.077 --> 00:15:30.677 It was just supposed to be something fun we did every week, but as it has 00:15:30.677 --> 00:15:34.637 grown into a business, it has brought with it a lot more responsibilities. 00:15:34.937 --> 00:15:38.717 And so are we happy with the level of additional responsibility that 00:15:38.717 --> 00:15:40.127 has been put in pressure really? 00:15:40.127 --> 00:15:43.656 That has been put on this podcast, if we're okay with it, I think 00:15:43.656 --> 00:15:47.766 we should try to grow it because why not charge $500 an episode? 00:15:47.976 --> 00:15:48.756 That'd be cool. 00:15:49.146 --> 00:15:50.316 Like I'm a board. 00:15:50.425 --> 00:15:53.065 Or we can say this is fine. 00:15:53.095 --> 00:15:53.995 We like the pace. 00:15:53.995 --> 00:15:55.045 We like what we're doing. 00:15:55.345 --> 00:15:56.815 Here's where I get frustrated. 00:15:56.845 --> 00:15:59.215 It's like, you don't let me skip a week ever. 00:15:59.515 --> 00:16:02.545 And so guys, Michelle doesn't let me skip a week. 00:16:02.575 --> 00:16:03.685 If I'm like, I'm tired. 00:16:03.685 --> 00:16:05.155 She's like, no, you're not tired. 00:16:05.155 --> 00:16:05.395 Get out of. 00:16:05.420 --> 00:16:08.210 Michele: I'm standing over you with a whip to make sure a 00:16:08.290 --> 00:16:09.130 Colleen: Basically. 00:16:09.760 --> 00:16:14.410 And so it's interesting because we introduce the concept of guests to 00:16:14.410 --> 00:16:17.230 give each other a little bit of a break and we've had this conversation, 00:16:17.560 --> 00:16:23.530 but I love, love, love, love having guests on, but it is also a lot of. 00:16:24.029 --> 00:16:27.959 Because when I have a guest on, I am going to find a podcast they have 00:16:27.959 --> 00:16:31.679 been on already because most of our guests have already done some podcasts. 00:16:31.709 --> 00:16:32.759 I'm going to listen to that. 00:16:32.939 --> 00:16:34.769 I'm going to think about what I want to ask them. 00:16:35.009 --> 00:16:37.409 Then I have the actual, like having them on. 00:16:37.709 --> 00:16:41.039 So that takes, even if it's only an hour, that's going to, if it's a morning, 00:16:41.099 --> 00:16:43.229 that's going to take three, three hours. 00:16:43.229 --> 00:16:45.809 You know, it takes a chunk of my work day to do that. 00:16:46.109 --> 00:16:50.069 And I love having guests, however, You know, I have three businesses 00:16:50.069 --> 00:16:51.599 now because this is now a business. 00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:56.039 And so I don't know, like, I love the idea of trying to grow this podcast. 00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:00.419 Honestly, I feel like for me, some people blog, I just can't get into blogging. 00:17:00.479 --> 00:17:06.689 This is for me, like a great experience and a great way to talk through stuff and 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.479 talk to you and meet interesting people. 00:17:09.779 --> 00:17:12.229 But what I'm trying to say is we're already treating it like a business. 00:17:12.229 --> 00:17:13.489 So why don't we really treat it like a. 00:17:13.990 --> 00:17:14.500 Michele: Um, 00:17:14.500 --> 00:17:15.370 Colleen: Like we're already doing that. 00:17:15.370 --> 00:17:16.900 Cause you already won't let me skip a week. 00:17:16.990 --> 00:17:17.380 So 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:20.350 Michele: people like it, people like that, we publish every week. 00:17:20.380 --> 00:17:21.070 We're very 00:17:21.070 --> 00:17:22.150 predictable And 00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:23.100 Colleen: They'll be 00:17:23.890 --> 00:17:27.100 Michele: I know we've also published 85 episodes that are only charging 00:17:27.100 --> 00:17:28.720 basically a hundred dollars an episode. 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.750 And then meanwhile, people show up with no episodes and they're 00:17:31.750 --> 00:17:34.540 charging 500, which makes me feel like we are doing something wrong. 00:17:34.840 --> 00:17:35.170 Um, 00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:36.810 Colleen: So, but I think the number, 00:17:37.490 --> 00:17:40.530 Michele: I mean, this is the crisis I'm having about this right now. 00:17:40.600 --> 00:17:44.061 And I've been sitting on this for like, since I made this spreadsheet earlier 00:17:44.061 --> 00:17:45.951 this week, just like stewing about it. 00:17:45.951 --> 00:17:48.621 So I feel like I just have like, I'm overflowing with things to say about it. 00:17:48.621 --> 00:17:52.251 This sponsor podcast thing is really interesting. 00:17:52.251 --> 00:17:53.421 Did you get a sense for them? 00:17:53.421 --> 00:17:55.821 Like what they, what they're picturing for that? 00:17:56.121 --> 00:17:57.801 Colleen: Ah, well I showed them our numbers. 00:17:58.571 --> 00:18:01.139 And I told them we charged for ads. 00:18:01.169 --> 00:18:04.319 I told them we charged $300 an episode and I haven't heard back. 00:18:04.619 --> 00:18:05.699 So that's how that? 00:18:05.699 --> 00:18:05.909 went. 00:18:06.209 --> 00:18:07.289 Michele: So, okay, 00:18:07.589 --> 00:18:08.039 so 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.349 you tried to raise our rate and then it went, 00:18:11.177 --> 00:18:12.047 Colleen: exactly what happened. 00:18:12.352 --> 00:18:16.222 Michele: I mean, it could be something where it's, you know, a 30 minute episode 00:18:16.222 --> 00:18:18.492 where like I get pitched all the time. 00:18:18.822 --> 00:18:19.452 Oh. 00:18:19.482 --> 00:18:25.077 The time for guests and we are very selective about who we bring on fortunate 00:18:25.077 --> 00:18:30.497 position that the weekend B, but like if some company is willing to pay us 30 00:18:30.497 --> 00:18:33.767 minutes for a half an hour episode so that their founder can come on and we do 00:18:33.767 --> 00:18:36.467 it as a bonus episode, maybe that's okay. 00:18:36.687 --> 00:18:40.707 And we just interview them like, and everybody knows it's 00:18:40.707 --> 00:18:42.537 an, I don't know, like, is that 00:18:42.937 --> 00:18:43.147 Colleen: yeah. 00:18:43.147 --> 00:18:44.137 I think it's totally cool. 00:18:44.167 --> 00:18:45.127 I mean, that's a whole thing. 00:18:45.157 --> 00:18:45.427 Okay. 00:18:45.427 --> 00:18:45.817 So if 00:18:45.817 --> 00:18:49.357 you go back, did you ever listen to the startup podcast. 00:18:49.357 --> 00:18:51.147 with Alex Bloomberg from, 00:18:51.207 --> 00:18:52.317 um, NPR. 00:18:52.617 --> 00:18:52.977 Okay. 00:18:53.427 --> 00:18:54.687 and when he. 00:18:54.987 --> 00:18:57.777 He was talking about growing Gimlet media, his company, before they 00:18:57.777 --> 00:19:01.107 were acquired by Spotify, they were talking about this very thing. 00:19:01.107 --> 00:19:04.687 I think it was E-bay did a whole sponsored podcast with them. 00:19:04.987 --> 00:19:07.987 and the concept I think is really cool. 00:19:07.987 --> 00:19:12.067 like if you still own the podcast, you still say whatever you want, 00:19:12.427 --> 00:19:14.647 but the podcast is sponsored. 00:19:14.647 --> 00:19:17.857 So yeah, let's say they say, I want this guest on you wouldn't have 00:19:17.857 --> 00:19:19.417 someone on who wasn't a good fit. 00:19:19.717 --> 00:19:20.167 So. 00:19:20.467 --> 00:19:26.917 You would only have someone on who already fit the tenor of your podcast. 00:19:27.067 --> 00:19:28.447 Michele: Um, and it's just like 00:19:28.507 --> 00:19:28.687 Colleen: know. 00:19:28.747 --> 00:19:29.407 Michele: episode 00:19:29.707 --> 00:19:30.037 Colleen: Yeah. 00:19:30.127 --> 00:19:30.397 Yeah. 00:19:30.427 --> 00:19:30.817 I mean, 00:19:31.657 --> 00:19:32.167 Michele: Yeah. 00:19:32.257 --> 00:19:34.897 Cause I've heard of like sponsored URIs podcasts. 00:19:35.027 --> 00:19:35.267 Colleen: Yeah. 00:19:35.267 --> 00:19:36.227 I would just do an episode. 00:19:36.227 --> 00:19:39.137 I mean, this company, like I said, they, they didn't reach out maybe cause our 00:19:39.137 --> 00:19:43.457 listenership is too low, but the concept I was totally fine with, cause it was 00:19:43.457 --> 00:19:45.797 literally a ma a SAS mentoring company. 00:19:45.827 --> 00:19:46.787 So I was like, Yeah, I could. 00:19:47.290 --> 00:19:49.720 You know, have one of your mentors come on and mentor me for an 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:51.670 hour and see, and that would be 00:19:51.755 --> 00:19:53.345 Michele: Yeah, that would be cool. 00:19:53.375 --> 00:19:54.935 I mean, I love interviewing people. 00:19:55.085 --> 00:19:59.645 I mean, I, I feel like I could interview a pile of gravel and make it interesting. 00:19:59.675 --> 00:20:02.555 There is something interesting in everybody. 00:20:02.855 --> 00:20:03.575 Colleen: here's the thing. 00:20:03.755 --> 00:20:07.355 None of this works unless we have more listeners, I think we are stuck. 00:20:07.355 --> 00:20:11.345 In my opinion, the reason we can't charge $500 an episode is. 00:20:11.745 --> 00:20:15.465 We only get 900 downloads an episode, which is a lot 00:20:15.525 --> 00:20:16.335 BTW, 00:20:16.475 --> 00:20:17.375 Michele: that actually, 00:20:17.735 --> 00:20:18.635 but we're not stopping. 00:20:19.185 --> 00:20:19.365 We're 00:20:19.365 --> 00:20:20.505 not stuck though. 00:20:20.535 --> 00:20:22.215 I will push back on that. 00:20:22.245 --> 00:20:22.665 Like 00:20:22.935 --> 00:20:24.195 we are, so we're at 50. 00:20:24.555 --> 00:20:24.945 Okay. 00:20:25.005 --> 00:20:26.415 We're at 52,000 downloads. 00:20:26.415 --> 00:20:26.805 Total. 00:20:26.805 --> 00:20:29.325 I pulling up our, this new trends on transistor. 00:20:29.410 --> 00:20:34.660 I mean, last month we got almost 4,000 downloads total and we did. 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:35.230 Okay. 00:20:35.230 --> 00:20:38.560 And we did, I don't know how many Tuesdays were there in January four or five. 00:20:38.560 --> 00:20:40.810 So we, I mean, I guess we did get about eight. 00:20:41.110 --> 00:20:44.000 800 to a thousand downloads per episode. 00:20:44.013 --> 00:20:50.643 And that's from when we started, like our, like August 20, 20, we had 777 00:20:50.643 --> 00:20:52.623 downloads total for the whole month. 00:20:52.653 --> 00:20:56.103 And now we get that basically at least that per episode. 00:20:56.403 --> 00:20:56.673 Colleen: Okay. 00:20:56.878 --> 00:20:58.708 Michele: So our growth is really good. 00:20:58.708 --> 00:20:59.248 I think. 00:20:59.398 --> 00:21:00.388 Colleen: Here's what I think. 00:21:00.688 --> 00:21:02.698 If we want to raise our rates, we need more listeners. 00:21:02.698 --> 00:21:06.868 This style of podcast does not attract high listenership. 00:21:07.198 --> 00:21:10.378 The kinds of podcasts that attract high listenership are the kinds 00:21:10.378 --> 00:21:12.178 where you have interesting guests on. 00:21:12.538 --> 00:21:15.718 Now, we've started doing a lot more guests, which is why I think we have 00:21:15.718 --> 00:21:20.698 had our listenership growing, but I think, like that's a lot, like, I'm not 00:21:20.698 --> 00:21:23.728 saying it's not, but I think compared to when you talk, when you want to talk 00:21:23.728 --> 00:21:25.468 ads and other things, it's not a lot. 00:21:25.858 --> 00:21:28.318 So there's little things we could do. 00:21:28.348 --> 00:21:32.967 Like every time we have a guest on, if they have a podcast, you know, they put 00:21:32.967 --> 00:21:35.337 our podcast out in their feed, right? 00:21:35.337 --> 00:21:37.407 Like cross promotion and stuff like that. 00:21:38.032 --> 00:21:39.592 Michele: I think Alex did that by the way, 00:21:39.892 --> 00:21:40.162 Colleen: Yeah. 00:21:40.192 --> 00:21:42.202 I just don't think we have the listenership to demand a 00:21:42.202 --> 00:21:43.372 higher rate because we can't. 00:21:43.402 --> 00:21:45.982 The thing about attribution and podcasting is it's really hard. 00:21:46.282 --> 00:21:47.782 Like you can't, how do they know? 00:21:47.782 --> 00:21:49.672 They're $500 cause they'd buy a month. 00:21:49.672 --> 00:21:50.842 So now there are two grand. 00:21:50.872 --> 00:21:53.132 Like what's the value in it for them? 00:21:53.432 --> 00:21:57.632 Michele: I don't want to lose who we are, because I feel like we have a very unique 00:21:57.662 --> 00:22:01.082 point of view and people really appreciate this, like just someone this week was 00:22:01.082 --> 00:22:05.282 tweeting about how they felt like it was the same rotating cast of characters 00:22:05.282 --> 00:22:07.232 on all of the software podcasts. 00:22:07.262 --> 00:22:11.622 And somebody chimed in that, like ours and, you know, a handful of others 00:22:11.622 --> 00:22:14.602 are like the only ones that aren't like that, that aren't different. 00:22:14.602 --> 00:22:16.132 Like, I don't want to become a podcast. 00:22:16.132 --> 00:22:19.402 That's just interviewing people with a hundred thousand followers. 00:22:19.402 --> 00:22:19.882 Yes. 00:22:19.912 --> 00:22:20.452 Okay. 00:22:21.227 --> 00:22:21.527 Colleen: Right. 00:22:21.617 --> 00:22:21.797 That's 00:22:21.827 --> 00:22:24.077 Michele: Give us more listeners that would expose us to more people. 00:22:24.077 --> 00:22:26.597 I mean, of course Arvid has 50,000 meals, but like Arvid, I feel like 00:22:26.597 --> 00:22:28.577 Arvid is like, I don't know our visit. 00:22:28.577 --> 00:22:31.217 One of those like thought leadership people, right? 00:22:31.217 --> 00:22:31.487 Yeah. 00:22:31.727 --> 00:22:33.857 Like he's just a nice person. 00:22:33.857 --> 00:22:34.157 Right? 00:22:34.157 --> 00:22:36.702 And actually he did republish the episode we did with Danielle 00:22:36.912 --> 00:22:37.842 to his feed, by the way, 00:22:38.142 --> 00:22:38.502 Colleen: Yeah. 00:22:38.632 --> 00:22:40.462 Michele: when we did that last yeah. 00:22:40.522 --> 00:22:41.332 Like year and a half ago. 00:22:41.370 --> 00:22:42.341 I don't want to do that. 00:22:42.411 --> 00:22:44.781 I mean, yes, it would be cool to like, if we did our atomic habits. 00:22:45.606 --> 00:22:48.096 Atomic habits, episode night, interview James clear. 00:22:48.096 --> 00:22:52.296 I mean, that would have been awesome, but like the thing is, is that's not like, 00:22:52.296 --> 00:22:57.996 I feel like the core of our show is that it's relatable and that's not relatable. 00:22:58.296 --> 00:22:58.866 Colleen: Here's 00:22:59.026 --> 00:23:00.196 Michele: And I, so I wouldn't reject it. 00:23:00.216 --> 00:23:04.021 It became my way, but at the same time, It is just as important to me to 00:23:04.021 --> 00:23:08.641 interview people who have 10 followers and talk about that experience because 00:23:08.641 --> 00:23:12.781 that is what everyone is feeling and what people are not getting. 00:23:12.781 --> 00:23:17.881 Is that feeling of relating to other people I'm feeling like normal, right? 00:23:17.911 --> 00:23:19.801 Like feeling like there's other people in your situation. 00:23:19.801 --> 00:23:21.811 That's so powerful. 00:23:21.811 --> 00:23:24.031 And, that's what drives me to do this. 00:23:24.031 --> 00:23:25.311 And we can't lose. 00:23:25.713 --> 00:23:26.073 Colleen: Okay. 00:23:26.103 --> 00:23:30.423 Here's the thing, Michelle, if you hadn't seen this guy tweet or whatever 00:23:30.423 --> 00:23:34.743 he did about his $600 an episode would be even be having this conversation, 00:23:35.043 --> 00:23:35.883 Michele: Maybe not. 00:23:36.243 --> 00:23:38.913 Colleen: maybe not because what we're doing is just fine right now 00:23:39.123 --> 00:23:39.603 Michele: Yeah, 00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:41.319 but it sounds like you don't like just fine. 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:41.949 Colleen: I'm just saying, 00:23:42.235 --> 00:23:42.639 Michele: people 00:23:42.689 --> 00:23:43.049 Colleen: it, let's 00:23:43.049 --> 00:23:43.529 do it. 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:44.729 Yeah. 00:23:44.729 --> 00:23:50.189 Michele: People point out to me that we were the only podcast hosted by two women 00:23:50.429 --> 00:23:54.779 talking about indie SAS, the only podcast. 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:55.439 Colleen: Yeah. 00:23:55.659 --> 00:23:58.839 Michele: There's one other that has one female host that I can think of. 00:23:58.869 --> 00:24:01.359 If there are more, please let me know because I would love to listen to them. 00:24:01.627 --> 00:24:05.587 I am not one to trot out my womanness, so to speak. 00:24:05.587 --> 00:24:11.497 I feel like as a professional and I'm very much like, I really, it only 00:24:11.617 --> 00:24:15.217 became something that I even really thought about once it became clear to 00:24:15.217 --> 00:24:19.297 me that like other people perceived me differently because I was a woman. 00:24:19.297 --> 00:24:22.327 If that makes sense, like, I never really walked in kind of on a 00:24:22.327 --> 00:24:26.217 crusade, so to speak from the get-go But like, that seems like aren't 00:24:26.217 --> 00:24:27.267 people willing to pay for that. 00:24:27.267 --> 00:24:29.667 Isn't, there's more value beyond the time we put into it and soft Softlight 00:24:29.762 --> 00:24:32.792 Colleen: No, they're not, they're not, you know why they don't care. 00:24:32.822 --> 00:24:33.692 Let me tell you. 00:24:33.932 --> 00:24:34.292 Okay. 00:24:34.322 --> 00:24:35.732 Colleen's about to soap box. 00:24:36.152 --> 00:24:40.832 People pretend that they care about supporting women, but they don't really 00:24:40.832 --> 00:24:43.922 care unless you have numbers to back it. 00:24:43.922 --> 00:24:44.102 up. 00:24:44.192 --> 00:24:44.492 Right. 00:24:44.492 --> 00:24:45.362 So it doesn't matter. 00:24:45.362 --> 00:24:46.952 that we're the only women doing this. 00:24:47.042 --> 00:24:47.272 That's 00:24:47.282 --> 00:24:47.402 not. 00:24:47.497 --> 00:24:48.307 Michele: doesn't matter. 00:24:48.607 --> 00:24:49.207 Colleen: It doesn't matter. 00:24:49.207 --> 00:24:54.427 You can't, you can't add that as a, like, that's a nice to have if we can provide 00:24:54.427 --> 00:24:55.897 the value, But like they don't care. 00:24:56.032 --> 00:24:59.902 Michele: But like you reached out to someone said we've got 85 00:24:59.902 --> 00:25:01.912 weeks of publishing every week. 00:25:02.182 --> 00:25:06.232 We're getting, you know, 900, 800, 900 downloads every episode. 00:25:06.472 --> 00:25:10.942 And yet a podcast with zero listeners, again, nothing against them, but like a 00:25:10.942 --> 00:25:15.862 podcast with zero listeners can charge over $600 an episode, but we can't. 00:25:16.162 --> 00:25:17.392 Because you asked for 00:25:17.402 --> 00:25:17.792 Colleen: reached, 00:25:17.872 --> 00:25:19.012 Michele: and you got ghosted. 00:25:19.312 --> 00:25:20.402 Colleen: yeah, I got ghosted 300. 00:25:20.407 --> 00:25:20.797 But his 00:25:20.797 --> 00:25:26.037 reach, I think this goes, Yeah, but, his reach, he is internet 00:25:26.407 --> 00:25:29.167 Michele: Yeah, no, I mean, and again, this is not about them 00:25:29.332 --> 00:25:31.312 Colleen: That person specifically, I get 00:25:31.327 --> 00:25:31.897 Michele: like, right. 00:25:31.897 --> 00:25:32.677 Yeah, exactly. 00:25:32.797 --> 00:25:33.067 Yeah. 00:25:33.097 --> 00:25:33.277 It's 00:25:33.382 --> 00:25:34.012 Colleen: It's just 00:25:34.657 --> 00:25:36.817 this is what being a woman in tech is about. 00:25:36.817 --> 00:25:37.147 Michelle. 00:25:37.447 --> 00:25:38.977 This is the whole deal, man. 00:25:39.397 --> 00:25:40.387 Michele: I hate that too. 00:25:40.397 --> 00:25:41.827 I wish people would just forget. 00:25:41.827 --> 00:25:45.187 I was a woman most of the time, like, I really don't care. 00:25:45.257 --> 00:25:51.737 I just want to run my businesses and do my work and just have them like, 00:25:51.737 --> 00:25:54.827 if they could just like, forget I had a gender, that would be awesome. 00:25:54.887 --> 00:25:55.337 And then 00:25:55.467 --> 00:25:55.887 Colleen: Yeah, 00:25:55.997 --> 00:25:56.987 Michele: they would pay me more. 00:25:56.987 --> 00:25:57.437 That would be 00:25:57.437 --> 00:25:57.917 cool. 00:25:57.977 --> 00:25:58.307 Like. 00:25:58.447 --> 00:25:59.707 Colleen: I honestly think that Like. 00:25:59.707 --> 00:25:59.927 being. 00:26:00.862 --> 00:26:01.462 Here. 00:26:01.792 --> 00:26:04.822 This is my, This is my whole philosophy on being a woman in tech. 00:26:04.822 --> 00:26:08.212 So this is probably going to offend a lot of people, but at first, in 00:26:08.212 --> 00:26:10.642 the very beginning, it's a good thing, cause you're a novelty. 00:26:10.942 --> 00:26:15.112 But when the rubber meets the road, people don't really want to listen to women. 00:26:15.172 --> 00:26:17.392 They really want to listen to other men because they can 00:26:17.392 --> 00:26:18.622 identify with them better. 00:26:18.622 --> 00:26:21.662 And most of our listeners are men and maybe that's. 00:26:22.297 --> 00:26:22.717 Michele: Like, 00:26:23.032 --> 00:26:25.252 Colleen: no, and I don't mean that like, if you're listening, like I'm not 00:26:25.252 --> 00:26:29.842 trying to be, you know, mean or nasty that has just, and maybe I just have 00:26:29.842 --> 00:26:34.642 this Like, 20 years of bias, but The novelty of us being women has worn off. 00:26:34.672 --> 00:26:36.712 And when push comes to shove, people want to give men money. 00:26:37.132 --> 00:26:38.422 They don't want to give women money. 00:26:38.722 --> 00:26:39.892 They want to listen to men. 00:26:39.922 --> 00:26:43.142 They don't really want to listen to women, and that's just, okay, 00:26:43.172 --> 00:26:44.882 maybe I'm super jaded, but that has 00:26:45.007 --> 00:26:48.697 Michele: I mean, everyone listening to this right now is proving that wrong. 00:26:48.997 --> 00:26:49.417 Right? 00:26:49.417 --> 00:26:52.897 Like everybody listening to this right now. 00:26:54.002 --> 00:26:57.902 Proving that they themselves don't hold that bias that maybe 00:26:57.902 --> 00:26:58.952 they have forgotten that word. 00:26:59.372 --> 00:26:59.762 Right. 00:27:00.122 --> 00:27:01.142 And like, it doesn't matter. 00:27:01.142 --> 00:27:04.692 And I'm like, I listened to myself think about this kind of a weird 00:27:04.692 --> 00:27:07.632 way of putting that, but like, I'm like, don't make excuses. 00:27:07.662 --> 00:27:09.252 We just don't have that many listeners. 00:27:09.252 --> 00:27:09.462 Right? 00:27:09.462 --> 00:27:11.292 Like neither one of us is a big deal. 00:27:11.342 --> 00:27:12.512 We are just normal. 00:27:12.844 --> 00:27:16.954 founders like we have what, like 8,000 Twitter followers between us, right? 00:27:16.954 --> 00:27:19.084 Neither one of us is a known brand. 00:27:19.144 --> 00:27:23.644 Neither one of us, like, we are not celebrities in any way, shape or 00:27:23.644 --> 00:27:26.524 form, and also don't want to be right. 00:27:26.524 --> 00:27:28.294 Like, this is also this other conflict. 00:27:28.294 --> 00:27:31.414 And I think a lot of, part of what led to my burnout too, is like, I don't 00:27:31.414 --> 00:27:35.314 want to be treated like I'm something special or on some pedestal above 00:27:35.314 --> 00:27:38.134 other people like it, because it was happening a little bit with the book 00:27:38.134 --> 00:27:40.054 and it made me deeply uncomfortable. 00:27:40.844 --> 00:27:43.604 I don't feel the need to be somebody who has a hundred thousand followers 00:27:43.604 --> 00:27:45.944 and like a crowd spooning after me. 00:27:45.944 --> 00:27:46.934 I don't need that. 00:27:46.934 --> 00:27:47.834 I don't want that. 00:27:48.164 --> 00:27:52.874 I actively don't want that, but can we still make money, like are doing this? 00:27:52.904 --> 00:27:55.874 And then like, but if we had more money coming in, like, you know, maybe 00:27:55.874 --> 00:27:58.834 that conference or something or other, these other things that we've talked 00:27:58.834 --> 00:28:00.724 about, like could happen fund, right? 00:28:00.874 --> 00:28:01.534 Colleen: That's what I'm saying. 00:28:01.534 --> 00:28:02.704 We are at a disadvantage. 00:28:02.734 --> 00:28:03.004 Okay. 00:28:03.004 --> 00:28:04.534 So let's go back to my original theory. 00:28:04.534 --> 00:28:05.584 At first, we were a novelty. 00:28:05.584 --> 00:28:07.804 People are excited, the novelty has worn off. 00:28:07.804 --> 00:28:08.944 We're at a disadvantage. 00:28:08.974 --> 00:28:12.544 And so the only way to claw back from that is to have hard 00:28:12.544 --> 00:28:13.984 numbers to back up our work. 00:28:14.014 --> 00:28:16.384 If this, this is And get creative. 00:28:16.414 --> 00:28:16.684 Yeah. 00:28:16.714 --> 00:28:18.424 So I think that goes back to. 00:28:18.724 --> 00:28:21.544 If we want to this to be a real business and we want to be able 00:28:21.544 --> 00:28:24.424 to charge more, we've got to, we've got to have the numbers. 00:28:24.424 --> 00:28:28.264 We've got to have however many thousands of listeners you need. 00:28:28.624 --> 00:28:31.714 And we don't even know, neither of us have really treated 00:28:31.714 --> 00:28:33.034 this like a business though. 00:28:33.334 --> 00:28:36.454 So we don't even know what that looks like. 00:28:36.454 --> 00:28:41.814 I think, I mean, you should put a thing up like these other guys did a reform with a 00:28:41.959 --> 00:28:42.349 Michele: Yeah. 00:28:42.349 --> 00:28:43.279 I was thinking about that. 00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:45.139 I mean, like Peter did sponsor us, right? 00:28:45.139 --> 00:28:48.289 Like, and so sure we can pay him 19 bucks a month. 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:52.069 And, and I guess it integrates with like Stripe checkout that does add more work 00:28:52.069 --> 00:28:54.919 for us because then we're cause we're splitting all this revenue when this 00:28:54.919 --> 00:28:57.229 podcast is not incorporated on its own. 00:28:57.589 --> 00:28:59.749 So like that gets kind of complicated. 00:28:59.749 --> 00:29:02.959 But, you know, but then again, if it's all going into like a general 00:29:02.959 --> 00:29:06.469 pool that like pays for you and I to go to a conference once a year, then 00:29:06.769 --> 00:29:10.399 that, like, we just keep track of the accounting and you know, I'm good for it. 00:29:10.473 --> 00:29:11.563 Colleen: Yeah, no worried about 00:29:11.683 --> 00:29:14.833 Michele: I'm not an Anna Delvy for anyone else who has been obsessed with 00:29:14.833 --> 00:29:16.993 inventing Anna the last couple of weeks. 00:29:16.993 --> 00:29:19.966 Uh, Yeah, I mean, 00:29:20.116 --> 00:29:21.496 Colleen: I guess here's what I want. 00:29:21.556 --> 00:29:26.026 What I want to say about all of this is the reason I'm happy with what 00:29:26.026 --> 00:29:29.806 we're doing right now, but if we're going to treat it like a business, I 00:29:29.806 --> 00:29:31.186 think we should try to make more money. 00:29:31.186 --> 00:29:32.686 And I think we should try to raise our rates. 00:29:32.686 --> 00:29:33.916 And I think we should figure that. 00:29:33.916 --> 00:29:37.096 out because we're already treated like, again, back to my joke, 00:29:37.096 --> 00:29:38.976 but it wasn't a joke how we've 00:29:38.976 --> 00:29:39.856 published this every 00:29:40.051 --> 00:29:41.461 Michele: underneath every joke. 00:29:41.896 --> 00:29:42.316 Colleen: right. 00:29:42.406 --> 00:29:46.396 It wasn't as if you're not going to let me skip an episode, then 00:29:46.696 --> 00:29:49.946 you know, it'd be nice to actually make more than $50 an episode. 00:29:49.955 --> 00:29:50.195 but 00:29:50.195 --> 00:29:51.695 but so the other thing I think. 00:29:52.403 --> 00:29:56.153 The other thing that I think is important though, is to me, to me, the 00:29:56.153 --> 00:30:01.283 primary value of this podcast is our relationship and our communication. 00:30:01.583 --> 00:30:05.543 I love having guests on, but I don't want to switch to a all 00:30:05.543 --> 00:30:07.403 guests format to try and grow 00:30:07.403 --> 00:30:07.853 the pod. 00:30:08.153 --> 00:30:13.133 Like if or so, or we can just status quote we're doing and like, just 00:30:13.583 --> 00:30:15.233 be more relaxed about it, but. 00:30:15.533 --> 00:30:19.133 I can go either way, but for me, the value is, is us hanging out and me getting 00:30:19.133 --> 00:30:21.443 to brain dump on you and vice versa. 00:30:21.593 --> 00:30:24.203 So whatever we decide to do, I just don't want to lose that. 00:30:24.503 --> 00:30:28.103 Michele: I mean, so it's like until, you know, the last couple of months 00:30:28.103 --> 00:30:31.553 or so whenever we had guests, it was only because like one of us was 00:30:31.553 --> 00:30:33.653 traveling or like schedule or whatever. 00:30:33.653 --> 00:30:34.373 Like we need it. 00:30:34.373 --> 00:30:36.263 We had a gap to fill in the schedule. 00:30:36.344 --> 00:30:40.034 And I think the intent of doing more interviews was that it 00:30:40.034 --> 00:30:41.324 would make our lives easier. 00:30:41.820 --> 00:30:45.330 I don't know if it's actually ha like, it sounds, I mean, you're putting a lot 00:30:45.330 --> 00:30:49.980 of work into having a guest on, like, it still requires a lot of scheduling for me. 00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:52.940 I have to kick Mathias out of the office, make sure the dog is taking it. 00:30:52.940 --> 00:30:55.400 I mean, there's still like, there's, there's all of the 00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:56.870 coordination that goes into it. 00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:00.910 It's still is a lot of work and then I miss you on those weeks. 00:31:00.910 --> 00:31:04.100 I don't get to, you know, we chat like we text and stuff, 00:31:04.130 --> 00:31:05.420 but like, it's not the same. 00:31:05.517 --> 00:31:08.427 But maybe we did something where it's like, you know, maybe we can 00:31:08.427 --> 00:31:13.527 probably raise the rates a little bit on the episode, sponsorships, 00:31:13.827 --> 00:31:17.967 maybe do fewer guests only go, just go back to doing them as needed. 00:31:17.967 --> 00:31:21.477 But then for all these people who are pitching us to be 00:31:21.477 --> 00:31:23.277 on, tell them, yeah, sure. 00:31:23.277 --> 00:31:26.097 We'll do a bonus episode, $500. 00:31:26.097 --> 00:31:29.667 We interview somebody from your company for a half hour. 00:31:29.967 --> 00:31:34.587 And we see if anyone bites at that and then that's expansion revenue, right? 00:31:34.652 --> 00:31:36.152 Well not, no, that's not expansion revenue. 00:31:36.152 --> 00:31:40.822 That's just sort of adding, it's adding an additional line of revenue to us. 00:31:40.822 --> 00:31:45.292 And so then, if we're charging, let's say 750 for a month of ads, 00:31:45.292 --> 00:31:49.072 which is the current rate it's seven 50 for a month or a thousand for two. 00:31:49.372 --> 00:31:51.712 Just cause it's easier for us to manage if it's two months, cause 00:31:51.712 --> 00:31:54.412 then I'm invoicing you whenever, but maybe we'll stop doing that. 00:31:54.497 --> 00:31:59.367 So we'll say it's seven 50 a month for the sponsoring, the episodes between the two 00:31:59.367 --> 00:32:06.627 of us or if we have a special guest on and then $500 an episode for a sponsor episode 00:32:06.627 --> 00:32:09.957 and we do two of those a month, right? 00:32:09.957 --> 00:32:12.240 Like then we're up to 1750 a month and. 00:32:12.268 --> 00:32:16.498 And then it starts to feel a bit more like a real business and like, and we 00:32:16.498 --> 00:32:21.568 don't feel like we're sort of, you know, squeezing our friends for sponsorships. 00:32:21.644 --> 00:32:26.504 Which, I mean, maybe we could do, like, we could even keep the rate the same and do 00:32:26.504 --> 00:32:28.574 two ads at the beginning, cause you know, 00:32:28.874 --> 00:32:30.764 Colleen: Now they're already 45 seconds. 00:32:30.764 --> 00:32:31.784 They're super long. 00:32:32.084 --> 00:32:33.164 They feel super long. 00:32:33.164 --> 00:32:34.304 I already think they're too long. 00:32:34.334 --> 00:32:35.594 Like when I listened to it, I'm like, oh, 00:32:35.894 --> 00:32:37.574 Michele: That's the thing like this thing about ads is like, if you 00:32:37.574 --> 00:32:41.534 don't like listening to them, then that is not a great user experience. 00:32:41.534 --> 00:32:44.774 And I don't want to, like, you know, go further down that path. 00:32:44.804 --> 00:32:45.044 Right? 00:32:45.044 --> 00:32:47.944 Does anyone actually listening to an ad. 00:32:48.244 --> 00:32:51.724 So I, but I think a sponsor observed where we're interviewing someone 00:32:51.724 --> 00:32:55.324 and, or they're, maybe you're getting coached by them in some way. 00:32:55.324 --> 00:32:56.614 That's really interesting. 00:32:56.614 --> 00:32:56.884 We could 00:32:56.884 --> 00:32:57.154 do 00:32:57.154 --> 00:33:02.802 something, something, like unique yeah, half an hour or an hour episode. 00:33:02.802 --> 00:33:06.852 And we make, we do it in such a way that it. 00:33:07.284 --> 00:33:11.544 Feels a bit, it doesn't feel like somebody is getting pitched for the whole hour 00:33:11.544 --> 00:33:12.894 because that would not work either. 00:33:12.924 --> 00:33:13.104 Right? 00:33:13.104 --> 00:33:16.824 I mean like a lot of newspapers and websites and stuff, like they do this 00:33:16.824 --> 00:33:18.834 now where you do like a sponsored posts. 00:33:18.904 --> 00:33:23.074 I mean, we actually run sponsored posts on laravel news, like, so, 00:33:23.374 --> 00:33:26.674 and it's just like a tutorial about how to use geocodio with metaphase. 00:33:26.824 --> 00:33:28.394 It's not, Hey, you should use geocodio. 00:33:28.394 --> 00:33:29.054 Do you have geocodio? 00:33:29.054 --> 00:33:31.294 Here's this very heavy handed, like sales pitch. 00:33:31.294 --> 00:33:33.004 It's just like a, here's how you do this thing. 00:33:33.034 --> 00:33:33.364 Okay. 00:33:33.437 --> 00:33:35.507 Maybe we do that and then maybe we see it. 00:33:35.507 --> 00:33:38.957 Those are big companies that have money to burn, like, you know, 00:33:38.957 --> 00:33:40.547 who want to do that kind of thing? 00:33:40.651 --> 00:33:43.261 Maybe, maybe that'll work and then cause yeah, at this point, like 00:33:43.261 --> 00:33:46.141 we're, I'm totally rambling, but we're basically covering expenses 00:33:46.141 --> 00:33:48.481 and then a little bit of extra, but. 00:33:48.781 --> 00:33:53.521 If we wanted to make something bigger happen with the mission of this show, 00:33:53.521 --> 00:33:57.061 which is making founders feel less alone. 00:33:57.361 --> 00:33:59.101 It has to go beyond this point. 00:33:59.261 --> 00:34:02.531 We have to do something differently, like software, social universities, 00:34:02.541 --> 00:34:06.311 of our social fund, whatever, like that is never going to happen. 00:34:06.431 --> 00:34:10.271 Charging a hundred, 150 bucks an episode as our only revenue. 00:34:10.916 --> 00:34:11.336 Colleen: Right. 00:34:11.636 --> 00:34:12.116 Yeah. 00:34:12.176 --> 00:34:13.706 I am on board with that. 00:34:13.706 --> 00:34:15.296 How the, this is another problem. 00:34:15.296 --> 00:34:17.366 I think we have is how do we use. 00:34:17.766 --> 00:34:21.066 Find those sponsors, like how do we even, there's gotta be like a 00:34:21.066 --> 00:34:22.836 podcast sponsorship marketplace. 00:34:22.836 --> 00:34:25.896 I don't think either of us have looked into that, but we need a 00:34:26.006 --> 00:34:29.636 Michele: So I looked at what it was like for ads, but I like, I 00:34:29.636 --> 00:34:34.226 have received probably hundreds of pitches from companies to 00:34:34.226 --> 00:34:36.176 have their founder or whatnot. 00:34:37.216 --> 00:34:41.506 Since we started this show and there's also agencies that have reached out 00:34:41.506 --> 00:34:44.416 to me and I have just replied to all of them saying, please take me off 00:34:44.416 --> 00:34:49.486 your list, but so I can reach out to them and say, Hey, you reached out 00:34:49.486 --> 00:34:50.966 to us in the past about, guests. 00:34:51.416 --> 00:34:54.356 Like, you know, we're starting a new concept. 00:34:54.386 --> 00:34:58.286 We'll have your w you know, we'll have your person on and. 00:34:58.586 --> 00:35:00.476 Heck, maybe I'll swing for the fences and say is a thousand 00:35:00.476 --> 00:35:01.676 dollars for an hour episode. 00:35:02.006 --> 00:35:03.296 We'll do a sponsored episode. 00:35:03.356 --> 00:35:04.316 We'll interview them. 00:35:04.346 --> 00:35:05.796 They'll sound awesome. 00:35:05.796 --> 00:35:08.430 I'm kind of a recognized expert in interviewing. 00:35:08.670 --> 00:35:10.440 You're also pretty damn good at it. 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:13.020 Like, Then we just see if they bite 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:13.440 Colleen: I 00:35:13.595 --> 00:35:16.565 Michele: and then the agencies let they pitch that to their clients. 00:35:16.655 --> 00:35:20.105 And we see if anybody bites, but I get 00:35:20.105 --> 00:35:21.995 so many pitches from people like. 00:35:22.300 --> 00:35:22.660 Colleen: Okay. 00:35:23.170 --> 00:35:25.060 It'll be interesting to see what they have. 00:35:25.216 --> 00:35:25.396 like. 00:35:25.396 --> 00:35:28.186 what kind of demographics And numbers they want to cause that 00:35:28.186 --> 00:35:32.086 will help us learn how to build the metrics that these people want. 00:35:32.386 --> 00:35:35.656 Michele: And maybe we can position like the podcast better too. 00:35:35.656 --> 00:35:37.996 I've actually, I've been thinking about rereading, obviously. 00:35:37.996 --> 00:35:38.566 Awesome. 00:35:38.866 --> 00:35:42.586 And, but I didn't have like a personal need to reread it. 00:35:42.586 --> 00:35:45.346 I was like, oh, this could be just an interesting thing that 00:35:45.346 --> 00:35:47.586 like people on my newsletter might find interesting or something. 00:35:47.988 --> 00:35:52.338 Maybe I should reread it with an eye towards positioning the 00:35:52.338 --> 00:35:56.298 podcast because we haven't really put any thought or effort into 00:35:56.298 --> 00:35:56.718 that 00:35:57.258 --> 00:35:58.068 at all. 00:35:58.068 --> 00:36:01.788 And, like, this is the podcast that like founders listened to that they like 00:36:01.788 --> 00:36:05.508 listening to, like, people keep telling me that, like when they ask founders, 00:36:05.508 --> 00:36:10.098 which podcasts they listen to, they name us, they say software social, and 00:36:10.098 --> 00:36:13.021 that feels like something would value. 00:36:13.321 --> 00:36:15.031 Colleen: Yeah, I think that's a great idea. 00:36:15.031 --> 00:36:17.251 I think we should think about yeah. 00:36:17.281 --> 00:36:18.481 How we're going to position. 00:36:18.481 --> 00:36:18.881 Michele: Yeah. 00:36:18.881 --> 00:36:19.943 Colleen: I love all these are great. 00:36:19.973 --> 00:36:20.423 I love it. 00:36:20.453 --> 00:36:21.593 I love this idea. 00:36:21.683 --> 00:36:24.503 I am so curious to see what happens when you start reaching back out 00:36:24.503 --> 00:36:27.323 to these people and telling them we'll do a special guest episode. 00:36:27.323 --> 00:36:28.193 I think that's a great idea. 00:36:28.493 --> 00:36:29.033 Michele: Yeah. 00:36:29.303 --> 00:36:32.933 I'm also really curious to see like what people listening, think of all of this. 00:36:33.336 --> 00:36:38.779 Yeah, so we have, if you're on Twitter, Pretty much like 95% of you are. 00:36:38.804 --> 00:36:41.364 I made a Twitter community called software social. 00:36:41.402 --> 00:36:44.492 and you can just go and actually I need an yeah. 00:36:44.542 --> 00:36:46.012 I'll tweet something out. 00:36:46.092 --> 00:36:47.212 It's in our, it's in our Twitter feed. 00:36:47.212 --> 00:36:48.022 You can find the link to it. 00:36:48.022 --> 00:36:48.922 Anybody can join it. 00:36:48.955 --> 00:36:54.738 But like, what are your ideas for, I guess, interesting other revenue 00:36:54.738 --> 00:36:56.778 ideas that allow us to create. 00:36:57.030 --> 00:37:00.300 Scale this up, both in terms of revenue, I guess, and, and listeners too. 00:37:00.390 --> 00:37:00.690 Right? 00:37:00.690 --> 00:37:01.280 That's , the other 00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:05.163 Colleen: How many newsletter subscribers do you have for deploy empathy? 00:37:05.163 --> 00:37:06.412 Michele: Almost 500. 00:37:06.712 --> 00:37:07.072 Colleen: Okay. 00:37:07.372 --> 00:37:07.972 Cause you know what? 00:37:07.972 --> 00:37:10.702 Corey, Corey Hayden's, who's a friend of mine. 00:37:11.002 --> 00:37:11.852 He has. 00:37:11.852 --> 00:37:16.018 Newsletter and I'll have to ask him how many subscribers he has, but he sold these 00:37:16.018 --> 00:37:20.068 annual sponsorships to his newsletter, like high value annual sponsorships, 00:37:20.068 --> 00:37:24.358 which I just thought was a really cool idea, like $15,000 for the whole year. 00:37:24.448 --> 00:37:26.578 And you get, you know, X number of shout. 00:37:26.598 --> 00:37:27.568 I don't know if that was the amount. 00:37:27.568 --> 00:37:28.288 Maybe it was 10. 00:37:28.348 --> 00:37:29.428 I'll ask him when we get off 00:37:29.428 --> 00:37:30.118 the podcast. 00:37:30.253 --> 00:37:31.243 Michele: a lot. 00:37:31.618 --> 00:37:32.098 Colleen: It's a cool 00:37:32.098 --> 00:37:32.638 idea though. 00:37:32.638 --> 00:37:32.878 Right? 00:37:33.063 --> 00:37:34.323 Michele: many subscribers does he 00:37:34.518 --> 00:37:35.538 Colleen: That's what I got to ask. 00:37:35.538 --> 00:37:35.916 Yeah. 00:37:35.916 --> 00:37:38.450 But I think traditionally I think the way, so if you look at indie 00:37:38.450 --> 00:37:39.860 hackers, which I think is kind of Like. 00:37:39.890 --> 00:37:44.120 the model of monetizing a podcast, cause most people don't, aren't able 00:37:44.120 --> 00:37:46.100 to monetize podcasts the community. 00:37:46.100 --> 00:37:46.460 Right? 00:37:46.460 --> 00:37:52.400 So he, his story, if I recall correctly is it was the community 00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:57.710 and the, the list that marketers had budgets and they reached out to 00:37:57.710 --> 00:37:59.720 him and they started advertising. 00:38:00.225 --> 00:38:05.595 I think getting those people together somehow as a community eventually makes 00:38:05.595 --> 00:38:07.185 it something you can monetize as well. 00:38:07.485 --> 00:38:07.905 Michele: Yeah. 00:38:08.205 --> 00:38:08.805 Colleen: But I like this 00:38:08.805 --> 00:38:10.275 first plan of like 00:38:10.690 --> 00:38:11.230 Michele: Yeah. 00:38:11.830 --> 00:38:13.720 Bonus sponsor episodes. 00:38:13.750 --> 00:38:18.050 In addition to the two of us talking or us talking to another founder. 00:38:18.178 --> 00:38:18.718 Colleen: right. 00:38:19.233 --> 00:38:22.173 Michele: Yeah, I think trying to do an every other episode 00:38:22.473 --> 00:38:24.453 with a guest is becoming too. 00:38:24.453 --> 00:38:26.133 I mean, we were just chatting the other day about just 00:38:26.133 --> 00:38:27.393 like the logistics of all of 00:38:27.393 --> 00:38:27.813 it and just 00:38:27.868 --> 00:38:28.528 Colleen: just the mud. 00:38:29.133 --> 00:38:29.613 Michele: like, 00:38:29.698 --> 00:38:30.178 Colleen: Yes. 00:38:30.208 --> 00:38:30.928 Who's when 00:38:31.173 --> 00:38:33.183 Michele: and there's like, the thing is, is like there's a million 00:38:33.183 --> 00:38:34.503 people I want to have on though. 00:38:34.978 --> 00:38:35.398 Colleen: Yeah. 00:38:35.548 --> 00:38:35.653 it's 00:38:35.698 --> 00:38:37.338 Michele: I just want to talk to everybody. 00:38:37.833 --> 00:38:38.373 Colleen: Yeah. 00:38:38.673 --> 00:38:40.743 Michele: Yeah, maybe we'll try that. 00:38:40.803 --> 00:38:41.133 We'll see. 00:38:41.163 --> 00:38:41.643 We'll see. 00:38:41.673 --> 00:38:43.803 But let's be, let's be creative about this. 00:38:43.833 --> 00:38:44.313 Let's 00:38:44.323 --> 00:38:44.563 Colleen: it. 00:38:44.863 --> 00:38:45.553 I'm on board. 00:38:45.783 --> 00:38:46.173 Michele: alright. 00:38:46.183 --> 00:38:46.463 Colleen: Cool. 00:38:46.723 --> 00:38:49.453 Michele: Well I will, will I talk to you next week? 00:38:49.453 --> 00:38:50.623 Or do you have a guest on next week? 00:38:50.623 --> 00:38:51.553 I didn't even, I don't deceit. 00:38:51.573 --> 00:38:52.273 This is the problem. 00:38:52.453 --> 00:38:53.593 I don't even know. 00:38:53.593 --> 00:38:56.293 I have to go look at like a calendar and that's not what 00:38:56.293 --> 00:38:57.283 we signed up for with this. 00:38:57.283 --> 00:38:57.613 Right. 00:38:58.063 --> 00:38:58.243 So. 00:38:58.543 --> 00:38:59.203 All right. 00:38:59.383 --> 00:39:02.473 Well, you'll hear from at least one of us next week, maybe 00:39:02.473 --> 00:39:04.633 the both of us who knows stay 00:39:04.633 --> 00:39:05.158 tuned.