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Welcome back to their episode
of the Startup Therapy Podcast.

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This is Ryan Rutan,
joined as always by my

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friend, the founder,
and CEO of startups.com.

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Will Schroeder will, as
founders, we are often chasing

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something, many things often and
innumerable and unquantifiable.

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Is it the case that as
founders, both personally

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and professionally.

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We just don't know when
to say enough is enough.

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Yeah.

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Like Ryan, it's so weird.

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Like I've dealt with
this personally, but I

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also, you know, we talked
to a lot of founders.

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We all get the concept
of let's get more.

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Right?

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Bigger company,
bigger bank account.

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Like everyone gets more.

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What you rarely hear is, I have
enough or more specifically.

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This is when I'll have enough.

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Yeah.

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This is when anything beyond
that becomes a liability.

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Yep.

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And I think that's, yeah.

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I'm really excited about
unpacking this today because

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I really want to talk
about how our ambition, our

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quest for more turns into a
liability that destroys us.

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And, and while that ambition
is initially good and it does

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wonderful transformative things
for us, it also has a dark side.

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When we let it just continue to
fester, that also takes us down.

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It, it becomes our, our
greatest strength and

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our greatest weakness.

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A hundred percent, man.

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So, Ryan, when you think about
ambition becoming a liability,

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like what comes, like, like
how, how do you manifest that

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in your head or, or in your

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own life?

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At some point, like it's, it's
the law of diminishing return.

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And look, I think we
gotta go all the way back

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to beginning on this.

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Like, so why does this start?

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Right?

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We started in scarcity mode.

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Every startup starts
in scarcity mode.

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I don't care if you're
funded or not, there's

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something you're scarce on.

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We're in life.

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You got money, you
might just be scarce and

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understanding of how we're
gonna use that money, right?

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There's always some
level of scarcity.

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We start in scarcity mode and we
just never found the off switch.

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We continue to grow
personally, professionally,

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and we're rewarded for that.

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People milestone our growth,
whether we want them to or not.

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In some cases, other
people are looking and

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going, oh, you did this.

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Congratulations.

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Good job.

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Right?

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Whether that's passing grades or
you know, getting promotions or

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building your company, hitting
revenue, whatever it is, we're

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we're celebrated for that.

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And so it sets this thing
into motion and we, we have

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this really early conditioning
around this bootstrap scarcity,

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which starts to drive this.

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Endless accumulation mindset
where it's just like more for

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more, more for, more, more.

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Because well more
must be better.

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Right?

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Right.

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Yeah.

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More always better until those
start to come at that cost.

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So as you said, right, it turns
from leverage into liability

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at the point where what we
end up needing to trade for

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those incremental gains far
outweighs what they're worth.

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Yeah, and it, it's interesting
because like, do you remember

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like growing up there was
this concept of eat everything

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on your plate, right?

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I, I

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clear your plate.

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I still haven't
lost that concept.

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And I'll tell you.

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It has it's, it has,
it has turned into a

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liability at this point.

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My wife and I just laughed
about this last night.

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The cost of dishes here in
Madrid, it's not cheap, right?

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When you eat out, you
pay for it and it's

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delightful foods, right?

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So you have this, this dual
fo fold problem for me.

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One, we have access to
amazing world class food.

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At amazing world class prices.

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And so I feel like we
shouldn't leave a scrap

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of it on the table.

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Right,

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right,

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right.

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And so I'm now carrying
it around my waist.

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Yeah.

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I say, welcome to obesity.

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And that same concept applies.

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Yep.

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We have this idea early on
because we're young, we're

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growing, we're hungry.

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Right.

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And food was scarce that
we should have all of it.

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We should consume all.

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And the idea is a clean plate
is rewarded because you consumed

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as much as you can consume.

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The irony there, sorry, I just
gotta go back like so do you

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remember what one of the rewards
for cleaning the plate was?

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Dessert.

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Yes.

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You clean your place.

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So if you do more than
you need to, we'll give

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you even more than you.

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More than you need to.

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No, it it more unhealthy, right?

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So yeah.

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So this is, this is pretty deep.

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It's very psychologically
set for me.

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Yeah.

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So what's interesting about
it is because we have the more

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is always better mentality.

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No one ever tells us when
it's time to shift or

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that it's ever time to.

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Right.

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In fact, you're almost like
kind of punished or penalized,

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especially as a founder for
the idea that you wouldn't

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just inherently want more.

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Yeah.

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Where I think that's
interesting is when we get

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into this, like you were
saying, we're broke, right?

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Yep.

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Maybe personally,
professionally, and

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startups broke by nature.

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That's how we all start, and so.

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All more is good at that point.

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Yes.

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More revenue, more people,
more capital, more,

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you know, you name it.

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More is good in our personal
life, especially when

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we're, uh, very young.

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More is good.

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Having car is good.

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Having houses good, yes.

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Having, you know, family
or, you know, whatever.

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It's whatever your path is and.

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What you don't hear about along
the way is someone saying,

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so when are you gonna stop?

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Yeah.

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You're like, no, I'm
eating as much as I can.

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Oh, like I clean every
plate, eat every dessert.

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I'm like, you know,
actually that's gonna end

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pretty poorly for you.

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Yes.

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Do you understand why?

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And here's the crazy thing.

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No, no.

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People genuinely don't
understand why having more

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could ever be a problem.

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Now, to be fair, it's because
a lot of 'em, you know,

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never get to eat enough.

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If you're 45 years old, I'm
just making up an age and you're

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like, dude, I'm so broke right
now, more ain't my problem.

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Okay.

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Right.

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That I feel for you.

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Right.

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So just to be clear,
most of the world doesn't

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have a moral problem.

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You know, though,
like yes and no.

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Obviously if you're,
if you're under fed, if

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you're under sheltered.

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If you're under
anything, yes, clearly.

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But I think that part of the
challenge becomes when we

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have a need more mentality.

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Right?

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Even and, and like when
we start to adopt that

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without any sense for what
enough looks like, right?

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Because I think that even if you
don't yet have enough, if you're

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already developing that, I will
always need more mentality.

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You're on the crash
course, right?

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You may not be, you may not
be at a point where you're in

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danger of hitting that wall,
but it approaches a lot faster

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than most of us think, man.

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I mean like we've talked about
this in other podcast where

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what you actually need in life.

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What is actually like a, a
life changing outcome or a

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life changing amount of money,
or a life changing number of

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things, relatively low and
relatively achievable, and yet

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what happens the minute we check
all the boxes for those needs?

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We erase those check marks,
draw bigger boxes and fill

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them with bigger checks.

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Right.

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Like another plate have car,
another plate need bigger car.

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Right.

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Right.

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Have a, have, have all the
airline travel I could ever

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want, need my own plane.

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Right.

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Nobody needs their own plane.

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That's silly.

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It reminds me of, uh, remember
we, we, we talked, uh, episodes

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past and I, I referenced that,
that Joseph Heller quote, uh,

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he's the author of Catch 22.

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Yes.

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Uh, they're at some brilliant,
he and Ker vga are at some like

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big billionaires, uh, penthouse
or something like that.

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Yep.

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Uh, VGA says to him.

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Hey Joe.

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Uh, how do you feel like this
guy's got more an artwork on

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his walls than than your, um,
your catch 22 novel ever made?

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He's like, well, I have
something he'll never have.

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And he goes, what's that enough?

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Yeah.

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Right.

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It's beautiful.

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Absolutely beautiful.

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I love those quotes because I
don't think any of that think

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part of that story's true.

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It does not matter.

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Just

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delightful though.

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It's a perfect quote,
whether it happened or not.

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I Right.

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It doesn't change anything,
but I think what's

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interesting about that is
when we're talking about.

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You know, do I have enough?

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Okay.

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This isn't, do I have enough
private jets and mansions?

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I'm not talking about that.

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Right.

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I'm saying your, your point
where you are satiated, where

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you feel I'm well fed enough,
I cannot eat more off this

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plate and be good is sooner
than most people think.

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Yeah.

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And the fact that they feel like
I won't get there until I'm,

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I'm vomiting my, my meal, right.

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Is ridiculous.

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Here's what I mean by that.

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Early in life you've
got this concept of.

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A utility meaning like how much
benefit is there to having more?

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And when I learned this
in my, uh, econ 1 0 1

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class at, uh, college Yep.

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And when I learned the
term utility, I remember

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this to this day.

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It said, Joe loves pizza.

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And he said the first slice of
pizza that Joe Eats has the most

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utility he'll he'll ever get.

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Yep.

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It's the same slice of pizza,
but his happiness, his, you

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know, enjoyment out of it
is at its apex, the second

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slice of pizza becomes less
the third, fourth, fifth,

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and sixth or whatever become,
uh, significantly less.

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He's still eating pizza, but
the value he gets the utility.

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Drops exponentially.

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Correct.

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Now it, and that
always stuck with me.

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Like I, in, in a weird way, I am
always maximizing for utility.

259
00:08:01,905 --> 00:08:04,455
I think it's the nature of what
we do as founders, as startups.

260
00:08:04,455 --> 00:08:04,545
Yeah.

261
00:08:04,630 --> 00:08:05,190
I think it's right.

262
00:08:05,190 --> 00:08:07,005
You know, as how do I spend
every dollar you build into

263
00:08:07,005 --> 00:08:07,275
us?

264
00:08:07,485 --> 00:08:07,725
Yep.

265
00:08:07,935 --> 00:08:10,905
But let me, let me apply this
concept of utility or this

266
00:08:10,905 --> 00:08:14,025
diminishing value of more
to how we actually live it.

267
00:08:14,265 --> 00:08:16,275
I remember a few episodes
ago, Ryan, you and I were

268
00:08:16,275 --> 00:08:18,945
talking about every founder
that gets their first three

269
00:08:18,945 --> 00:08:20,310
series BMW typically in white.

270
00:08:20,970 --> 00:08:21,330
Right.

271
00:08:21,870 --> 00:08:24,690
And we said wherever you
were before the three series

272
00:08:24,690 --> 00:08:28,950
BMW, until you got that
series, BMW is probably the

273
00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:31,800
greatest delta of utility
you'll ever experience.

274
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:31,890
Yep.

275
00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,020
In a car before and after
that moment was amazing.

276
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:34,409
Yeah.

277
00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:34,950
Correct.

278
00:08:34,950 --> 00:08:35,130
Right.

279
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,080
That that was a
zero to 100 moment.

280
00:08:37,230 --> 00:08:37,590
Right.

281
00:08:37,890 --> 00:08:42,390
Now, once you had that utility
wears off and the novelty wears

282
00:08:42,390 --> 00:08:46,140
off Uhhuh and you say, well,
how do I do more than this?

283
00:08:46,230 --> 00:08:46,350
Yeah.

284
00:08:46,355 --> 00:08:46,445
Yeah.

285
00:08:47,055 --> 00:08:49,275
You look at the next car
and the next car to get, I'm

286
00:08:49,275 --> 00:08:51,645
just sticking with cars as
a, you know, a metaphor here.

287
00:08:51,645 --> 00:08:53,655
You know, it could be whatever
that next thing is in your life.

288
00:08:54,195 --> 00:08:57,195
And you work really hard
and you get it could be

289
00:08:57,195 --> 00:08:58,695
the seven series, BMW.

290
00:08:58,814 --> 00:09:01,005
I'm a car guy, so I'm, I'm
moving up interiors here.

291
00:09:01,215 --> 00:09:03,285
It could be that Bentley,
it could be the bug Gotti,

292
00:09:03,285 --> 00:09:04,875
you know, wherever, wherever
you go on the chain.

293
00:09:04,875 --> 00:09:05,145
Right.

294
00:09:05,505 --> 00:09:07,935
And what you realize when
you get that next car,

295
00:09:08,295 --> 00:09:10,005
it's better in some ways.

296
00:09:10,125 --> 00:09:10,425
Oh yeah.

297
00:09:10,695 --> 00:09:12,195
But it's not zero to
a hundred anymore.

298
00:09:12,225 --> 00:09:13,335
Nah, it's like zero to 20.

299
00:09:13,515 --> 00:09:13,695
Yeah.

300
00:09:13,695 --> 00:09:13,905
Right.

301
00:09:13,905 --> 00:09:15,555
The zero, 10,
sometimes zero to zero.

302
00:09:16,005 --> 00:09:16,275
Yeah.

303
00:09:16,305 --> 00:09:16,605
Right?

304
00:09:16,755 --> 00:09:16,995
Yep.

305
00:09:17,265 --> 00:09:20,625
And the moment the novelty wears
off, you're like, well, shit,

306
00:09:21,225 --> 00:09:23,925
I had to work so much harder.

307
00:09:24,015 --> 00:09:27,885
Or even if, if we don't use
hard work as the metric, I

308
00:09:27,885 --> 00:09:32,055
had to contribute value so
much more, whether it's money,

309
00:09:32,055 --> 00:09:32,925
time, you know, whatever.

310
00:09:32,925 --> 00:09:36,525
So much more in order to
get to that level and it

311
00:09:36,525 --> 00:09:37,665
wasn't that much better.

312
00:09:38,055 --> 00:09:38,865
That blows me away.

313
00:09:38,865 --> 00:09:39,615
What do you think about that?

314
00:09:39,825 --> 00:09:40,605
A hundred percent, man.

315
00:09:40,605 --> 00:09:43,515
Like I can actually draw that
direct comparison because in the

316
00:09:43,515 --> 00:09:47,415
last eight years I. I've owned
a number of cars, but I've owned

317
00:09:47,565 --> 00:09:49,545
two very, very different cars.

318
00:09:49,545 --> 00:09:49,635
Mm-hmm.

319
00:09:50,060 --> 00:09:52,245
And I got very different level
of enjoyment from both of them.

320
00:09:52,545 --> 00:09:55,967
One of them was an SL five
50, which is a very, it is a

321
00:09:55,967 --> 00:09:56,220
great car, expensive Mercedes.

322
00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,950
The other one was a 1998
Land Rover Discovery, which

323
00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:04,770
wasn't a cheap car when it
was made, but it certainly

324
00:10:04,770 --> 00:10:05,670
was by the time I bought it.

325
00:10:06,030 --> 00:10:06,420
You know which one?

326
00:10:06,420 --> 00:10:10,410
I had a lot more fun driving
around in my $4,000 clunker

327
00:10:10,410 --> 00:10:13,410
of a Guatemalan, you know,
off-road vehicle that I

328
00:10:13,410 --> 00:10:14,490
just, I loved the thing.

329
00:10:14,490 --> 00:10:16,200
I had so much fun with that car.

330
00:10:16,615 --> 00:10:18,385
And there was no
stress behind it.

331
00:10:18,385 --> 00:10:19,855
There was no nothing
like it didn't, it

332
00:10:19,855 --> 00:10:20,455
literally didn't matter.

333
00:10:20,455 --> 00:10:22,915
If that thing had fallen in
two pieces in the middle of the

334
00:10:22,915 --> 00:10:25,225
road, I would've pushed them
off to the side for everyone

335
00:10:25,225 --> 00:10:27,595
else's safety and walked home
and not thought about it again.

336
00:10:27,775 --> 00:10:27,865
Right.

337
00:10:28,135 --> 00:10:30,805
Well you, it just such, you also
maximized no liability that,

338
00:10:31,015 --> 00:10:31,975
I'll give you another example.

339
00:10:32,245 --> 00:10:34,105
When I go on vacations
and as you know, I hardly

340
00:10:34,105 --> 00:10:35,035
ever take vacations.

341
00:10:35,035 --> 00:10:35,335
I'm just not.

342
00:10:35,335 --> 00:10:35,815
It is correct.

343
00:10:36,295 --> 00:10:40,015
Uh, and so when I go on
vacation, we usually try to

344
00:10:40,015 --> 00:10:43,315
go to a really nice place and
'cause we hardly ever do it.

345
00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:46,740
When I get to the bar, I order
the same drink every time.

346
00:10:47,250 --> 00:10:48,180
Uh, vodka gimlet.

347
00:10:48,270 --> 00:10:49,050
I know exactly.

348
00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:50,220
I know exactly what it is.

349
00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:50,880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

350
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:51,060
You do.

351
00:10:51,060 --> 00:10:51,600
You know me well.

352
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,210
And so it's the same pour of
Tito's anywhere in the world.

353
00:10:54,330 --> 00:10:54,420
Yep.

354
00:10:54,420 --> 00:10:54,630
Right.

355
00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:56,010
You know, sometimes
less, sometimes more.

356
00:10:56,010 --> 00:10:57,000
But it's the same drink.

357
00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:58,200
There's nothing
special about it.

358
00:10:58,200 --> 00:10:58,440
Right.

359
00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,150
No, I'm not like a bourbon
guy or anything like that.

360
00:11:00,150 --> 00:11:00,510
Right, right.

361
00:11:00,690 --> 00:11:03,930
Nor nor is it a complicated
or complex drink.

362
00:11:03,930 --> 00:11:05,670
Like you don't even need
anybody who an expert,

363
00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:06,060
you cannot mess up.

364
00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:08,220
You measure two, two
things nice together.

365
00:11:08,310 --> 00:11:08,460
Yep.

366
00:11:08,460 --> 00:11:09,180
Yeah, exactly right.

367
00:11:09,390 --> 00:11:12,270
Anyway, so I'll, I'll, I'll
go to one of these resorts

368
00:11:12,390 --> 00:11:16,050
and I'll go to the bar and
they'll, they'll pour me my,

369
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,450
my drink, which would normally
be like in, in, in what

370
00:11:18,450 --> 00:11:19,800
I'd say like market prices.

371
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,000
Like an $8 drink.

372
00:11:21,090 --> 00:11:21,240
Yep.

373
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:21,870
An $8.

374
00:11:21,870 --> 00:11:24,390
Just being even like a slightly
higher end price point.

375
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:26,835
And they're like,
sir, that's $37.

376
00:11:27,535 --> 00:11:29,515
And I'm like, and
I'm so offended.

377
00:11:29,515 --> 00:11:31,195
I'm not, I'm not that
a-hole who like, like

378
00:11:31,195 --> 00:11:32,215
makes a big stink about it.

379
00:11:32,215 --> 00:11:32,905
I just, yeah.

380
00:11:32,905 --> 00:11:32,906
Yeah.

381
00:11:32,995 --> 00:11:35,065
Uh, privately, like
just complain to myself.

382
00:11:35,485 --> 00:11:36,325
But I feel like a chump.

383
00:11:36,655 --> 00:11:39,355
Yeah, I feel like a chump
because I don't feel

384
00:11:39,355 --> 00:11:40,195
like I'm getting value.

385
00:11:40,495 --> 00:11:40,795
Well.

386
00:11:41,490 --> 00:11:43,170
You get the most utility
outta the first one.

387
00:11:43,170 --> 00:11:45,210
It's the second one that
should really bother you will.

388
00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:47,160
The problem is
there's five left.

389
00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:51,960
You know this idea that once I
have enough of something right.

390
00:11:52,290 --> 00:11:56,010
I don't necessarily realize
that as I try to get more of

391
00:11:56,010 --> 00:11:57,660
it, it actually doesn't work.

392
00:11:57,660 --> 00:11:59,250
Again, it's got the
diminishing value.

393
00:11:59,610 --> 00:12:00,000
Right?

394
00:12:00,150 --> 00:12:04,050
But if, if we apply this to,
um, our startups, it's so

395
00:12:04,050 --> 00:12:07,860
powerful and I hear so few
founders talking about this.

396
00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:08,220
Yeah.

397
00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:09,870
If we were to say, Hey, founder.

398
00:12:10,319 --> 00:12:13,140
At what point does your business
not need to grow anymore?

399
00:12:13,290 --> 00:12:15,150
Like that's heresy, right?

400
00:12:15,150 --> 00:12:16,650
Like how dare you talk?

401
00:12:16,650 --> 00:12:17,430
My business doesn't.

402
00:12:17,834 --> 00:12:21,405
At what point does the happiness
of your team outweigh the

403
00:12:21,405 --> 00:12:22,365
revenue of your company?

404
00:12:22,515 --> 00:12:22,995
How, yeah.

405
00:12:23,385 --> 00:12:24,435
Shut up, right?

406
00:12:24,645 --> 00:12:25,245
You're fired.

407
00:12:25,725 --> 00:12:26,625
Get a new team.

408
00:12:26,775 --> 00:12:28,425
Yeah, exactly.

409
00:12:28,814 --> 00:12:31,305
But what we're really asking
in those questions is have

410
00:12:31,305 --> 00:12:35,685
you thought about like when
enough is actually enough?

411
00:12:35,925 --> 00:12:38,954
Have you thought in your
mind, Hey, once I get to

412
00:12:38,954 --> 00:12:41,535
this threshold, the three
series BMW, just to get as

413
00:12:41,535 --> 00:12:43,605
a metaphor, I'm good, Ryan.

414
00:12:43,814 --> 00:12:46,515
I don't think most people have
even remotely considered that.

415
00:12:46,755 --> 00:12:48,045
And it blows my mind

416
00:12:48,045 --> 00:12:49,365
considering how
hard we work for it.

417
00:12:49,545 --> 00:12:51,945
It is, you know, it, there,
there's so much packed into

418
00:12:51,945 --> 00:12:53,775
that decision though, now
that I'm thinking about it.

419
00:12:53,775 --> 00:12:56,535
For example, one of the, one
of the, the little devil's

420
00:12:56,535 --> 00:12:57,825
advocacies here, right?

421
00:12:58,230 --> 00:13:00,449
Yeah, I don't necessarily
need anymore, but we haven't

422
00:13:00,449 --> 00:13:02,400
achieved all the impact that
we want to in the world.

423
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:03,900
You know, based on what
the problem that you're

424
00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:04,860
solving for is, right?

425
00:13:04,860 --> 00:13:07,260
So there's all these
other reasons, right?

426
00:13:07,260 --> 00:13:10,050
Or like, yeah, I'm paid pretty
well now, but there's still

427
00:13:10,050 --> 00:13:11,699
a lot of people on my team
that I'd, I'd love to be

428
00:13:11,699 --> 00:13:13,110
able to pay more, or, right.

429
00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:15,090
There's all of these
other things that get

430
00:13:15,090 --> 00:13:16,020
baked into that decision.

431
00:13:16,020 --> 00:13:17,550
So for you.

432
00:13:18,210 --> 00:13:19,650
How do you start to
separate some of that out?

433
00:13:19,650 --> 00:13:21,449
How do you filter those
things and how do you kind

434
00:13:21,449 --> 00:13:23,939
of stack rank and order
them and say like, look,

435
00:13:23,939 --> 00:13:28,020
I'm gonna base the decision
on enough for me, or enough

436
00:13:28,020 --> 00:13:31,800
for my customers, or enough
for my team, enough for my

437
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,240
investors, enough for everybody.

438
00:13:33,540 --> 00:13:35,550
Like how do you
unwind that calculus?

439
00:13:35,550 --> 00:13:37,140
'cause it is not uncomplex.

440
00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:38,040
Well, think

441
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:38,370
about it.

442
00:13:38,699 --> 00:13:40,470
What do those things
need to achieve?

443
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:41,250
What's the end game?

444
00:13:41,895 --> 00:13:44,985
So I always think as, as far as
size of company, having built

445
00:13:44,985 --> 00:13:48,704
companies of all different
sizes, I've learned that as a

446
00:13:48,704 --> 00:13:51,015
company grows and gets bigger
and bigger, I become less

447
00:13:51,015 --> 00:13:54,765
happy because a whole bunch
of things start to happen that

448
00:13:54,765 --> 00:13:58,844
affect me personally that I do
not like you now get politics.

449
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:00,060
Politics, right?

450
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:00,330
Yep.

451
00:14:00,390 --> 00:14:03,150
Uh, you, you get things like,
uh, you know, I mentioned

452
00:14:03,570 --> 00:14:06,540
the first company, uh, that
I had started Blue Diesel.

453
00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:10,740
We merged with an agency and
then very grew very quickly

454
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,620
and overnight we had like a
$10 million a month payroll

455
00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:14,971
that brought me no joy.

456
00:14:15,930 --> 00:14:16,110
Right.

457
00:14:16,110 --> 00:14:18,300
I mean, it just like, it was
so stressful and it, it was

458
00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:21,900
so unnerving because it's
unfixable that I didn't like it.

459
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:22,440
Right.

460
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:22,530
Yeah.

461
00:14:22,890 --> 00:14:25,230
Uh, needless to say, we have
nowhere near a $10 million a

462
00:14:25,230 --> 00:14:27,900
month payroll@startups.com,
and I sleep so well

463
00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:28,680
with that information.

464
00:14:28,685 --> 00:14:29,130
Yeah, yeah.

465
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:29,460
Right.

466
00:14:29,490 --> 00:14:32,610
Like I, I feel like if something
goes wrong for us, we can

467
00:14:32,610 --> 00:14:33,660
all get in a room and fix it.

468
00:14:34,140 --> 00:14:34,380
Yep.

469
00:14:34,380 --> 00:14:34,560
Right.

470
00:14:34,589 --> 00:14:38,640
So for me, enough is just enough
people, just enough revenue,

471
00:14:38,910 --> 00:14:42,030
et cetera, so that whenever
a problem comes up, we can

472
00:14:42,030 --> 00:14:46,380
fix it and the order or the
configuration of the company.

473
00:14:47,220 --> 00:14:49,200
Is as stress free as possible.

474
00:14:49,290 --> 00:14:50,790
Let me expand on this just
while I'm thinking about it.

475
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:50,970
Sure.

476
00:14:51,330 --> 00:14:54,000
Let's build products
that stress us out less.

477
00:14:54,180 --> 00:14:54,600
Yeah.

478
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:54,601
Yeah.

479
00:14:54,810 --> 00:14:56,160
We just had this
discussion last week.

480
00:14:56,430 --> 00:14:58,890
We just sunset a product that
that made us tons of money for

481
00:14:58,890 --> 00:15:00,150
millions of dollars for years.

482
00:15:00,420 --> 00:15:02,580
We just didn't like it, and so
we were like, you know what?

483
00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:03,750
It stresses out.

484
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:04,650
Stresses our team out.

485
00:15:04,830 --> 00:15:05,880
Let's just not do it anymore.

486
00:15:06,330 --> 00:15:09,150
We will make less money in the
short term, maybe in the long

487
00:15:09,150 --> 00:15:12,360
term by making that decision,
but we will be more happy.

488
00:15:12,974 --> 00:15:13,875
Enough is enough.

489
00:15:14,115 --> 00:15:15,974
I wouldn't say we, we have
enough revenue, we still

490
00:15:15,974 --> 00:15:17,925
need a little bit more,
but we're not that far off.

491
00:15:18,104 --> 00:15:18,464
Right.

492
00:15:18,584 --> 00:15:21,734
And there is a point where the
reason we didn't go out and

493
00:15:21,734 --> 00:15:25,245
raise like millions of dollars
of VC is because we didn't need

494
00:15:25,245 --> 00:15:26,564
what that capital could provide.

495
00:15:26,775 --> 00:15:27,045
Really

496
00:15:27,045 --> 00:15:28,064
powerful, you know what I mean?

497
00:15:28,094 --> 00:15:28,334
Yeah.

498
00:15:28,665 --> 00:15:30,015
It's nice to be able to
make those decisions.

499
00:15:30,015 --> 00:15:30,314
Right.

500
00:15:30,314 --> 00:15:32,145
And I think that that
is a, a big part of it.

501
00:15:32,145 --> 00:15:34,305
And it again, it goes
back to that saying like,

502
00:15:34,665 --> 00:15:37,545
what is that little bit
more going to cost us?

503
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:37,650
Yeah.

504
00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:40,200
Or in this case, what is that
little bit less gonna cost us?

505
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,290
Does it actually cost us enough
to make it not worth making

506
00:15:43,290 --> 00:15:45,630
a decision that's productive
for the team, productive for

507
00:15:45,630 --> 00:15:47,550
the people that work here,
productive for, for everybody

508
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:48,810
comes out with a good result.

509
00:15:48,810 --> 00:15:50,760
So I think that is the
right way of looking at it.

510
00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:51,030
There.

511
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:53,130
There was something else that
occurred to me as you were,

512
00:15:53,130 --> 00:15:56,310
as you were going through that
in terms of like win where and

513
00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:58,260
how we get to those decisions.

514
00:15:58,890 --> 00:16:01,350
And that in some cases,
I think it's not just a

515
00:16:01,350 --> 00:16:03,420
matter of do we want more.

516
00:16:03,855 --> 00:16:06,405
But if we ask ourselves,
can we achieve more?

517
00:16:06,705 --> 00:16:08,775
But by doing it in a
different way, right.

518
00:16:08,775 --> 00:16:11,535
I think so often we just
assume that in order to to

519
00:16:11,535 --> 00:16:13,785
grow bigger, we just have
to throw more of whatever it

520
00:16:13,785 --> 00:16:15,045
was that we've always done.

521
00:16:15,525 --> 00:16:15,765
Yeah.

522
00:16:15,765 --> 00:16:16,485
At the same problem.

523
00:16:16,485 --> 00:16:19,995
So we wanna grow bigger, we have
to add more head count, we want,

524
00:16:19,995 --> 00:16:21,405
you know, more, more profit.

525
00:16:21,405 --> 00:16:23,295
We have to add more
products we want.

526
00:16:23,595 --> 00:16:23,805
Right?

527
00:16:23,895 --> 00:16:26,385
And so I think that instead,
if we can start to look at

528
00:16:26,385 --> 00:16:29,745
that and say, by continuously
adding the resources that we

529
00:16:29,745 --> 00:16:32,805
always have, they come with
some liability of their own.

530
00:16:33,585 --> 00:16:35,475
And so that's part of
what this gets introduced.

531
00:16:35,475 --> 00:16:39,555
So if we can create more without
adding the liability, so can

532
00:16:39,555 --> 00:16:40,605
you find ways of doing it?

533
00:16:40,635 --> 00:16:43,065
Once you get to enough, I
think you really have to ask

534
00:16:43,065 --> 00:16:44,025
yourself a hard question.

535
00:16:44,355 --> 00:16:47,535
Is this possible without
changing the linear

536
00:16:47,535 --> 00:16:48,645
relationship between.

537
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,660
Benefit and liability, because
if it's not right, then it

538
00:16:51,660 --> 00:16:54,000
just has to be recognized
as not being worthwhile.

539
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,610
I'll give you an example of
where I see this as a milestone.

540
00:16:56,610 --> 00:16:59,400
A lot of founders, uh, that
listen to this podcast,

541
00:16:59,430 --> 00:17:01,800
you know, some of you, I'm,
I'm talking about you a few

542
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,170
times a year I'll get a, a
friend of mine, a founder,

543
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,380
uh, that'll call me out and
say, just completed my exit.

544
00:17:07,724 --> 00:17:09,284
I mean, for all the obvious
reasons, I can never get

545
00:17:09,284 --> 00:17:10,034
enough of those calls.

546
00:17:10,185 --> 00:17:10,365
Right.

547
00:17:11,024 --> 00:17:14,355
Um, if you're listening to
this podcast and you ha have

548
00:17:14,355 --> 00:17:16,875
had an exit, and Ryan, do you
remember like a couple months

549
00:17:16,875 --> 00:17:19,514
ago, uh, gentleman reached out
and, and by the way, uh, if

550
00:17:19,605 --> 00:17:22,875
sir, if, if you remember that
we're talking about you Yes.

551
00:17:22,875 --> 00:17:24,764
And he said, Hey, I've listened
to podcast for a long time,

552
00:17:25,065 --> 00:17:27,944
built this business doing
50 million a rrr, et cetera.

553
00:17:27,944 --> 00:17:29,235
You know, having just,
you know, it's, it's

554
00:17:29,235 --> 00:17:30,044
incredible, et cetera.

555
00:17:30,345 --> 00:17:32,504
And I'm like, I can never
get enough of those emails.

556
00:17:32,595 --> 00:17:32,774
Right.

557
00:17:32,774 --> 00:17:34,305
You know, just talking
about those success stories.

558
00:17:34,305 --> 00:17:34,875
The outcomes, talking about

559
00:17:34,875 --> 00:17:35,534
successes.

560
00:17:35,534 --> 00:17:35,805
Yeah.

561
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:37,740
In the past couple months,
I've had a few different

562
00:17:37,740 --> 00:17:40,620
of my friends reach out to
me and said, you know, will

563
00:17:40,625 --> 00:17:41,550
I, I, I've had an exit.

564
00:17:41,550 --> 00:17:42,300
I've come to some money.

565
00:17:42,510 --> 00:17:44,820
If you're one of them, now
we're in the future, and you

566
00:17:44,820 --> 00:17:47,219
call me, please make sure
I'm the first person you

567
00:17:47,219 --> 00:17:49,469
call because you need to hear
what I'm about to tell you.

568
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:52,830
'cause everybody else
gonna high five you.

569
00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:53,820
I'm gonna warn you.

570
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:54,420
Yeah, yeah.

571
00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:55,350
Here's what I'm gonna tell you.

572
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:57,149
It, it's the same
thing I tell everybody.

573
00:17:57,419 --> 00:17:58,230
Don't fuck it up.

574
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:00,570
Here's what I say.

575
00:18:00,570 --> 00:18:00,659
Yep.

576
00:18:00,929 --> 00:18:02,100
You've already won.

577
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:02,550
Okay?

578
00:18:02,610 --> 00:18:03,570
Yes, you've won.

579
00:18:04,545 --> 00:18:05,955
Now all you can do is lose.

580
00:18:06,135 --> 00:18:06,375
That's it.

581
00:18:06,375 --> 00:18:08,055
You have to change
your mentality.

582
00:18:08,235 --> 00:18:08,505
Right.

583
00:18:08,865 --> 00:18:10,365
It's not time to double down.

584
00:18:10,365 --> 00:18:11,265
Right, exactly.

585
00:18:11,265 --> 00:18:12,075
It's not the answer.

586
00:18:12,705 --> 00:18:14,985
Most founders like,
if it's 10, it's 20.

587
00:18:14,985 --> 00:18:15,975
If it's 20, it's 200.

588
00:18:15,975 --> 00:18:17,745
I'm going all the way
and I'm like, are you?

589
00:18:18,225 --> 00:18:20,565
That's the worst
answer possible.

590
00:18:20,715 --> 00:18:20,985
Right.

591
00:18:21,015 --> 00:18:22,125
You can go all the way.

592
00:18:22,155 --> 00:18:24,075
Unfortunately, that that
often ends up going all the

593
00:18:24,075 --> 00:18:26,150
way to zero rather than all
the way to point anywhere

594
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:26,230
else.

595
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:26,313
Well, that's my point.

596
00:18:26,565 --> 00:18:28,635
This is exactly kinda
the crux of this.

597
00:18:28,965 --> 00:18:30,885
What you stand to gain next.

598
00:18:31,380 --> 00:18:36,180
Is tiny at best, and what you
stand to lose is everything.

599
00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:39,240
You can gain 1% and lose 99%.

600
00:18:39,690 --> 00:18:43,470
You have to understand when
enough is enough and you're

601
00:18:43,470 --> 00:18:46,380
playing a defensive game
versus an offensive game.

602
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,150
That's it, man, right there.

603
00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:50,635
Post win, the risk
profile flips.

604
00:18:51,465 --> 00:18:51,705
Right.

605
00:18:52,185 --> 00:18:56,085
All of a sudden downside
completely outweighs upside, and

606
00:18:56,085 --> 00:18:57,315
I think we just don't get that.

607
00:18:57,525 --> 00:18:59,805
We've been in a, I must
win to achieve upside.

608
00:19:00,105 --> 00:19:04,245
The minute you do that, right,
continuing to push it, just

609
00:19:04,275 --> 00:19:05,625
the risk profiles reversed.

610
00:19:05,655 --> 00:19:08,060
All of a sudden the, the, the
cards have all been flipped.

611
00:19:08,955 --> 00:19:10,995
I think we just don't recognize
that it's certainly not

612
00:19:10,995 --> 00:19:12,165
soon enough in most cases.

613
00:19:12,435 --> 00:19:14,865
You know something
that's really funny about

614
00:19:14,865 --> 00:19:18,825
everything we talk about here
is that none of it is new.

615
00:19:19,065 --> 00:19:21,645
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a

616
00:19:21,645 --> 00:19:25,485
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.

617
00:19:25,485 --> 00:19:26,326
You may just not know it.

618
00:19:26,570 --> 00:19:27,350
But that's okay.

619
00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:29,540
That's kind of what
we're here to do.

620
00:19:29,540 --> 00:19:32,210
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually

621
00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:36,230
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.

622
00:19:36,409 --> 00:19:39,679
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing

623
00:19:39,740 --> 00:19:42,710
about what to do, let us just
give you the answers to the

624
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:44,090
test and be done with it.

625
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,090
Best example I can think
of, Lance Armstrong.

626
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,990
Here's a guy who won
fucking everything.

627
00:19:50,990 --> 00:19:53,095
Lance, you won everything
you won at life, dude.

628
00:19:54,044 --> 00:19:55,004
You beat life.

629
00:19:55,064 --> 00:19:58,455
You won, you were the
best around Dun, right?

630
00:19:58,455 --> 00:19:58,514
Yeah.

631
00:19:58,544 --> 00:20:02,534
And like he's got that,
um, and, and he, uh,

632
00:20:05,050 --> 00:20:08,054
I, I can't even say that without
finishing anyway, but he won.

633
00:20:08,115 --> 00:20:09,975
He was like, Johnny
Tour de friends, right?

634
00:20:10,004 --> 00:20:10,064
Yeah.

635
00:20:10,094 --> 00:20:11,534
Uh, like he, he was the guy.

636
00:20:11,685 --> 00:20:12,975
And remember, he
had lived strong.

637
00:20:12,975 --> 00:20:13,995
He had, um, yeah.

638
00:20:14,054 --> 00:20:16,185
I mean, dude was
printing money, right?

639
00:20:16,185 --> 00:20:18,855
He was just like, he,
he was the goat and then

640
00:20:18,885 --> 00:20:19,875
he gets caught doping.

641
00:20:20,565 --> 00:20:22,455
Right, because he has,
he has to stay on top.

642
00:20:22,455 --> 00:20:23,775
He has to, to be the best.

643
00:20:24,135 --> 00:20:26,115
And, and I want to say this
from two different ways.

644
00:20:26,565 --> 00:20:28,335
On the one hand I get it.

645
00:20:28,635 --> 00:20:28,755
Yeah.

646
00:20:28,755 --> 00:20:31,755
Like the reason you were
the best is 'cause you, you,

647
00:20:31,815 --> 00:20:35,715
you want to be the best,
but the moment you jabbed

648
00:20:35,715 --> 00:20:36,945
yourself for the first time.

649
00:20:37,155 --> 00:20:37,455
Yeah.

650
00:20:37,845 --> 00:20:40,125
That's the moment where
you jumped the shark.

651
00:20:40,485 --> 00:20:40,755
Right?

652
00:20:40,755 --> 00:20:41,745
That's the moment.

653
00:20:41,745 --> 00:20:42,105
Yes.

654
00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:45,629
Enough should have been
enough, and what you're about

655
00:20:45,629 --> 00:20:49,890
to do will buy you nothing
and cost you everything.

656
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,290
It's Tom Brady in another
season of FRI in the NFL.

657
00:20:53,310 --> 00:20:54,389
Right Tom?

658
00:20:54,629 --> 00:20:56,310
We got like seven
Super Bowl rings.

659
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:56,700
Right.

660
00:20:56,940 --> 00:20:58,920
If you get an eighth, no
one will even remember.

661
00:20:58,920 --> 00:20:59,010
No.

662
00:20:59,160 --> 00:20:59,400
Right.

663
00:20:59,490 --> 00:21:01,080
Like no one will
know the difference.

664
00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:01,290
Yep.

665
00:21:01,530 --> 00:21:04,530
And the next guy that, that
knocks you on your ass and

666
00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:05,760
you don't get back up from

667
00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:06,090
Yeah.

668
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:06,450
Right.

669
00:21:06,510 --> 00:21:06,930
You lose

670
00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:07,379
everything.

671
00:21:07,710 --> 00:21:09,210
At the point you're
asking like, can you

672
00:21:09,210 --> 00:21:10,530
make these in thumb size?

673
00:21:10,530 --> 00:21:11,940
You've probably gone too far.

674
00:21:11,945 --> 00:21:11,955
Right?

675
00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:13,620
Like, you're good man.

676
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:14,040
You're good.

677
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,670
I think for many of us, you
know, we don't have to be

678
00:21:17,670 --> 00:21:19,860
Tom Brady, Lance Armstrong
to hit this threshold.

679
00:21:19,889 --> 00:21:20,250
Correct.

680
00:21:20,250 --> 00:21:21,300
For many of us.

681
00:21:21,505 --> 00:21:24,475
We hit this threshold and,
and you know, lemme put, put,

682
00:21:24,475 --> 00:21:27,510
put this together when we hit
$200,000 a year of income.

683
00:21:28,695 --> 00:21:31,905
In other words, at $200,000,
it, it works very differently

684
00:21:31,905 --> 00:21:32,835
in different parts of the world.

685
00:21:32,835 --> 00:21:35,115
I think in some parts of the
world, when people hear me say

686
00:21:35,115 --> 00:21:37,635
that, they're like, oh, you
snobby, first world Americans.

687
00:21:37,695 --> 00:21:37,935
Yeah.

688
00:21:38,055 --> 00:21:40,905
In other parts of America,
the folks in San Francisco

689
00:21:40,905 --> 00:21:43,845
are like, how the hell
could you live on $200,000?

690
00:21:43,845 --> 00:21:43,995
Right.

691
00:21:43,995 --> 00:21:45,135
I'd have 14 roommates.

692
00:21:45,135 --> 00:21:45,285
Right.

693
00:21:45,315 --> 00:21:48,885
So understand, I, I'm, I'm
normalizing a little bit

694
00:21:49,185 --> 00:21:51,580
anyway, in America, in most
parts of America, let's say.

695
00:21:52,090 --> 00:21:54,670
You couldn't buy most of
the things you need now.

696
00:21:54,670 --> 00:21:56,020
It doesn't go as
far as it used to.

697
00:21:56,260 --> 00:21:56,740
Right, right.

698
00:21:56,740 --> 00:22:02,230
But, but you couldn't get
probably 80% to 85% of your

699
00:22:02,230 --> 00:22:05,320
utility in life, house,
car, family, et cetera.

700
00:22:05,620 --> 00:22:07,090
And I'm not saying
you're printing money.

701
00:22:07,090 --> 00:22:07,480
I'm not.

702
00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:13,180
What I'm saying is that
next 10% is geometrically

703
00:22:13,180 --> 00:22:14,020
harder to get to.

704
00:22:14,050 --> 00:22:14,380
Yes.

705
00:22:15,105 --> 00:22:16,035
The cost of it.

706
00:22:16,065 --> 00:22:19,245
If you apply risk, if you apply,
when I say what it costs you,

707
00:22:19,245 --> 00:22:21,165
a lot of people just think
you know, money and time.

708
00:22:21,555 --> 00:22:22,785
It's more than money and time.

709
00:22:22,785 --> 00:22:24,825
It's health, it's relationships.

710
00:22:24,825 --> 00:22:27,195
There's things worth way
more than money and time.

711
00:22:27,524 --> 00:22:27,675
Yeah.

712
00:22:27,705 --> 00:22:30,615
That tend to be what you
really pay in the price to

713
00:22:30,615 --> 00:22:31,815
try to get to that next level.

714
00:22:32,055 --> 00:22:33,645
Go back to your
pizza analog, right?

715
00:22:33,735 --> 00:22:35,805
You get the most utility
outta the first slice.

716
00:22:36,345 --> 00:22:38,475
So let's compare this
now, let's say, okay, you

717
00:22:38,475 --> 00:22:39,555
still want another slice?

718
00:22:40,439 --> 00:22:42,030
The price of that
slice just doubled.

719
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:43,980
You're gonna get less utility,
you're gonna pay more and just

720
00:22:43,980 --> 00:22:45,149
double the price of each slice.

721
00:22:45,149 --> 00:22:46,649
At what point do you
stop eating pizza?

722
00:22:47,189 --> 00:22:48,929
Probably after about the
third slice, if you're

723
00:22:48,929 --> 00:22:49,889
paying any attention.

724
00:22:50,159 --> 00:22:52,590
And yet the, the numbers
are nowhere near that

725
00:22:52,590 --> 00:22:55,649
clear in, in the game of
life and startups, right?

726
00:22:55,649 --> 00:22:59,790
Your professional and personal,
uh, returns are generally not

727
00:22:59,790 --> 00:23:02,159
quite that easy to see, nor
is the diminishing return.

728
00:23:02,639 --> 00:23:04,020
But it's there if you
go looking for it.

729
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,149
And I think that's the,
that's the part where we start

730
00:23:06,149 --> 00:23:08,189
to fail, is that we don't
even, we don't even look,

731
00:23:08,189 --> 00:23:09,120
we don't even try to set.

732
00:23:09,825 --> 00:23:10,515
A metric.

733
00:23:10,875 --> 00:23:12,285
That is the final metric.

734
00:23:12,345 --> 00:23:14,865
We always set a metric
knowing that once we achieve

735
00:23:14,865 --> 00:23:17,565
or get close to that, we're
gonna move that bar that is

736
00:23:17,565 --> 00:23:19,065
just baked into what we do.

737
00:23:19,335 --> 00:23:20,685
That's the hardest part.

738
00:23:20,685 --> 00:23:21,015
And so,

739
00:23:21,015 --> 00:23:23,715
so let me give you my
own version of kind of

740
00:23:23,715 --> 00:23:25,065
constantly moving the bar.

741
00:23:25,425 --> 00:23:28,275
When we sold Blue Diesel way
back in the day as 25 years

742
00:23:28,275 --> 00:23:29,895
ago when we sold that company.

743
00:23:30,135 --> 00:23:31,335
Now mind you, I was
like 27 years old.

744
00:23:31,695 --> 00:23:31,845
Right.

745
00:23:31,875 --> 00:23:34,695
So like, like relatively
speaking, I had a whole

746
00:23:34,695 --> 00:23:35,775
lot of life left to live.

747
00:23:35,775 --> 00:23:37,665
It wasn't like it was time
to hang up the Spurs, right?

748
00:23:37,665 --> 00:23:40,995
But in my mind, whatever
that was, the next one had

749
00:23:40,995 --> 00:23:42,075
to be two to three exit.

750
00:23:42,165 --> 00:23:44,625
And I hear this all
the time, right?

751
00:23:44,745 --> 00:23:46,515
Hey, you just had a
life changing exit.

752
00:23:46,605 --> 00:23:46,905
Yeah.

753
00:23:46,905 --> 00:23:48,495
Well now I'm gonna double
down and do it again.

754
00:23:48,525 --> 00:23:50,055
'cause here, here's,
here's what I always hear.

755
00:23:50,625 --> 00:23:52,455
I don't want people to
think I'm a one hit wonder.

756
00:23:52,815 --> 00:23:53,745
Who cares?

757
00:23:53,775 --> 00:23:55,455
Who cares if you're a
one hit wonder, right?

758
00:23:55,605 --> 00:23:57,375
The fact all the people out
there with zero hits are

759
00:23:57,375 --> 00:23:58,245
gonna judge you as being

760
00:23:58,245 --> 00:23:59,175
a one hit wonder like.

761
00:23:59,410 --> 00:24:00,325
Who gives a shit, right?

762
00:24:00,325 --> 00:24:00,925
Didn't give a shit.

763
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:01,180
Oh yeah,

764
00:24:01,180 --> 00:24:02,380
he got lucky one time.

765
00:24:02,410 --> 00:24:02,890
Okay.

766
00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:04,330
Cry about it on your yacht.

767
00:24:04,330 --> 00:24:04,630
Ask,

768
00:24:04,635 --> 00:24:06,790
ask Rick Asley if
he cares, right?

769
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:07,450
He doesn't.

770
00:24:07,450 --> 00:24:08,530
He doesn't care at all.

771
00:24:08,860 --> 00:24:10,510
Every time you get Rick
ruled, he gets paid.

772
00:24:10,870 --> 00:24:14,110
So with that said, I'm saying
like for founders, they get

773
00:24:14,110 --> 00:24:17,680
into this thing and they're
like, okay, uh, gotta have more.

774
00:24:17,740 --> 00:24:18,685
Enough is never enough.

775
00:24:18,685 --> 00:24:20,140
I, I've gotta keep
pushing my ambition.

776
00:24:20,140 --> 00:24:22,540
For me, I looked
at it like this.

777
00:24:23,205 --> 00:24:27,105
If I didn't keep pushing
more constantly all the time,

778
00:24:27,465 --> 00:24:28,395
I would lose everything.

779
00:24:28,755 --> 00:24:32,955
My ambition is a hundred
percent mapped to sheer terror.

780
00:24:33,135 --> 00:24:33,315
Yeah.

781
00:24:33,315 --> 00:24:35,235
Like PE people think
it's, it's about greed.

782
00:24:35,625 --> 00:24:36,945
No, mine's all fear.

783
00:24:37,005 --> 00:24:39,765
I, I operate completely on fear.

784
00:24:40,005 --> 00:24:42,345
The greed or anything I get
to have that, that comes

785
00:24:42,345 --> 00:24:45,615
out out of a, at the cost
of fear is just found money.

786
00:24:46,035 --> 00:24:46,395
Yes.

787
00:24:47,535 --> 00:24:48,585
It's all driven by

788
00:24:48,585 --> 00:24:48,765
fear.

789
00:24:48,765 --> 00:24:50,265
I'm just doing this
for the fear folks.

790
00:24:50,265 --> 00:24:51,525
The money is a fringe benefit.

791
00:24:51,885 --> 00:24:52,515
Exactly.

792
00:24:52,515 --> 00:24:52,995
Exactly.

793
00:24:52,995 --> 00:24:55,185
And it's like, I'm just,
I'm so worried and I, well

794
00:24:55,185 --> 00:24:58,695
have been, I should say that
if I, if I don't constantly

795
00:24:58,695 --> 00:24:59,475
run myself into the ground.

796
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,760
That I'm gonna, I'm gonna
lose it and I'm gonna, you

797
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,050
know, become not ambitious.

798
00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:08,040
The irony there is that that
can absolutely be what ends up

799
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,620
causing people to, to Exactly.

800
00:25:10,620 --> 00:25:13,650
It's as if we're in the ninth
inning and, and we're up and

801
00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:14,790
it's the like way at the bottom.

802
00:25:14,970 --> 00:25:17,040
We're like, let's ask
for some extra innings.

803
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:17,670
Why?

804
00:25:17,790 --> 00:25:19,140
All you can do at this
point is below the lead.

805
00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:21,720
Like, you don't want extra
innings now you just want to

806
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,480
defend what you've got because.

807
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:26,520
You've done it right,
but I think this is

808
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:27,180
where we run it from.

809
00:25:27,180 --> 00:25:29,520
So, because defining that
metric is gonna be very,

810
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,080
very individualized, right?

811
00:25:31,110 --> 00:25:31,230
Mm-hmm.

812
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,210
What's the thought
process look like?

813
00:25:33,210 --> 00:25:35,760
Like how can we help people to
get closer to being able to say,

814
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,200
here's how I actually pick that.

815
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,409
Here's how I will actually
know, other than it feels right.

816
00:25:40,409 --> 00:25:41,220
When it feels right.

817
00:25:41,730 --> 00:25:42,690
How do we help define that?

818
00:25:42,899 --> 00:25:43,680
I went through this

819
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,495
catharsis last year
when I turned 50.

820
00:25:46,530 --> 00:25:46,830
Right.

821
00:25:47,070 --> 00:25:48,570
And it's just, it's
kind of a seminal year.

822
00:25:48,570 --> 00:25:48,689
Sure.

823
00:25:48,750 --> 00:25:50,970
It's the first year where
you're old, old and you

824
00:25:50,970 --> 00:25:52,860
know, some old guy listening
to this is gonna be like,

825
00:25:52,889 --> 00:25:54,300
oh, you know, he's like 75.

826
00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:55,379
And he is like, oh,
you're a young pop.

827
00:25:55,379 --> 00:25:56,370
I'm like, dude, no I'm not.

828
00:25:56,399 --> 00:25:56,639
Right.

829
00:25:57,090 --> 00:25:57,149
Yeah.

830
00:25:57,149 --> 00:25:59,159
Like, I'm like, yes, I'm younger
than you are, and I hope that

831
00:25:59,159 --> 00:26:00,000
I live as long as you do.

832
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,070
I genuinely do, but I,
I'm not playing that game.

833
00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:02,610
Not young.

834
00:26:02,790 --> 00:26:03,030
Yeah,

835
00:26:03,149 --> 00:26:03,780
yeah, exactly.

836
00:26:03,780 --> 00:26:03,929
Right.

837
00:26:04,139 --> 00:26:06,179
But it is a threshold
moment in life.

838
00:26:06,550 --> 00:26:09,340
Where you start to ask yourself,
I don't know how much longer

839
00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:11,110
I can or will work, right?

840
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:11,200
Yes.

841
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,300
If you have that luxury or
if you have that ability,

842
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:16,120
if you have any level of
introspection at all, you

843
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:18,910
look back on your life and
you said you take inventory.

844
00:26:18,910 --> 00:26:19,000
Yep.

845
00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:22,180
Of all the things you did, all
the things you've accomplished,

846
00:26:22,180 --> 00:26:24,775
all the misses, all the
regrets, like everything, and

847
00:26:24,775 --> 00:26:27,880
you start to say, Hey, I have
enough data now where I can

848
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,530
actually say, was this worth it?

849
00:26:29,865 --> 00:26:30,105
Yeah.

850
00:26:30,135 --> 00:26:30,375
Right.

851
00:26:30,375 --> 00:26:33,495
Like I, I went out, I got the
car, or I bought the house, or

852
00:26:33,495 --> 00:26:35,955
I moved, you know, somewhere
else and, you know, I did

853
00:26:35,955 --> 00:26:38,805
those things that I thought
would bring more happiness

854
00:26:39,105 --> 00:26:41,865
and now I can do the calculus
to, to measure it Right.

855
00:26:41,865 --> 00:26:44,835
Analytics style and say where
did the happiness come from?

856
00:26:44,895 --> 00:26:45,105
Yeah.

857
00:26:45,225 --> 00:26:46,245
You know, where was happiness?

858
00:26:46,545 --> 00:26:49,725
And what I learned, you know,
in, in that process was that

859
00:26:49,845 --> 00:26:52,485
there really wasn't anything
I was gonna go out and like,

860
00:26:52,515 --> 00:26:55,785
acquire that was gonna make
me geometrically more happy.

861
00:26:56,295 --> 00:26:58,845
In other words, like if,
if I, if I went no further

862
00:26:58,845 --> 00:27:01,155
than where I am now, not
from a lack of ambition,

863
00:27:01,155 --> 00:27:02,505
just for a point of utility.

864
00:27:02,835 --> 00:27:03,015
Yeah.

865
00:27:03,015 --> 00:27:03,285
Right.

866
00:27:03,285 --> 00:27:05,115
Like I can get a
fifth slice of pizza.

867
00:27:05,115 --> 00:27:08,085
I just don't, it'll
actually make me sick.

868
00:27:08,265 --> 00:27:10,005
And when people hear that,
I want you to understand

869
00:27:10,245 --> 00:27:12,735
it's not because I'm so
fabulously wealthy that I

870
00:27:12,735 --> 00:27:14,865
just like, I, I don't know
where to park my fifth yacht.

871
00:27:15,165 --> 00:27:16,335
It's 'cause I don't
need a fucking yacht.

872
00:27:16,635 --> 00:27:16,905
Right.

873
00:27:16,905 --> 00:27:19,365
Like, I just like, I understand
that's what a lot of people

874
00:27:19,365 --> 00:27:20,685
like dream of and want.

875
00:27:21,075 --> 00:27:23,025
It ain't on my list and
it would bring me no

876
00:27:23,115 --> 00:27:23,535
additional

877
00:27:23,535 --> 00:27:23,595
joy.

878
00:27:24,135 --> 00:27:24,405
Yeah.

879
00:27:24,465 --> 00:27:26,715
I think that's an important part
of it too, is, is not just to

880
00:27:26,715 --> 00:27:29,235
continue because like we've used
the, we've used the car analog

881
00:27:29,235 --> 00:27:30,075
and used the house analog.

882
00:27:30,075 --> 00:27:32,685
I think at some point when
you're just chasing more of

883
00:27:32,685 --> 00:27:35,115
the same thing, I think it
also becomes problematic.

884
00:27:35,175 --> 00:27:36,075
Like at some point, correct.

885
00:27:36,495 --> 00:27:38,865
Probably worth branching
out a little bit and kind

886
00:27:38,865 --> 00:27:42,915
of like, yep, redefine what
does more actually look like.

887
00:27:43,155 --> 00:27:43,605
Like I do.

888
00:27:43,605 --> 00:27:46,215
I just need more the same
thing, like my son Jack

889
00:27:46,215 --> 00:27:49,635
loves trains, loves trains,
he loves high speed trains.

890
00:27:49,635 --> 00:27:51,105
He just loves the high
speed train engines.

891
00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:54,000
I found him this little
variety pack of these things.

892
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,800
There were like 12 of them
in there and I thought,

893
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,030
well, that'll satisfy him.

894
00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:59,520
And I was, I was dripping 'em
out like one a week, one here,

895
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:00,570
one there, one here, one there.

896
00:28:01,110 --> 00:28:02,235
When you get to the 12th,
then he's just like.

897
00:28:03,135 --> 00:28:04,725
I would love some
more of these things.

898
00:28:04,725 --> 00:28:07,035
I'm like, why do you
need more trains?

899
00:28:07,035 --> 00:28:09,255
What could there possibly be
from a variety standpoint?

900
00:28:09,255 --> 00:28:11,865
Like how much more joy could
you have by having 24 of

901
00:28:11,865 --> 00:28:12,885
these things as opposed to 12?

902
00:28:13,065 --> 00:28:15,525
And of course he was, you
know, five at the time.

903
00:28:15,525 --> 00:28:17,685
So I'm not expecting him to be
able to intellectualize this.

904
00:28:18,015 --> 00:28:20,565
But how many trains are we
all collecting as adults?

905
00:28:20,565 --> 00:28:20,715
Right?

906
00:28:20,715 --> 00:28:22,995
Like, again, like when we talk
about the size of the company or

907
00:28:22,995 --> 00:28:25,545
the, the personal bank accounts,
or you know, the number of cars

908
00:28:25,545 --> 00:28:28,065
in the garage or the size of the
garage the cars are in, at what

909
00:28:28,065 --> 00:28:28,965
point are we asking ourselves?

910
00:28:28,965 --> 00:28:31,275
Like particularly like
is, I think you and I both

911
00:28:31,275 --> 00:28:31,995
know people like this.

912
00:28:32,580 --> 00:28:36,930
They've been chasing more of
the same thing for a long time

913
00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:38,040
with almost like no variety.

914
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,379
To me, that's always
really bizarre.

915
00:28:40,379 --> 00:28:43,260
Like at some point, think
about where else happiness

916
00:28:43,260 --> 00:28:46,470
might be derived from and
maybe go get some more of that.

917
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:47,970
So stick with that.

918
00:28:48,060 --> 00:28:49,590
That was the
discovery that I made.

919
00:28:49,890 --> 00:28:52,860
What I realized was that the
place I, the bucket I kept

920
00:28:52,860 --> 00:28:56,010
trying to fill, um, let's
call it stuff and let's call

921
00:28:56,010 --> 00:28:59,970
it bing with business, no
longer added any more joy.

922
00:28:59,970 --> 00:29:02,025
It was my fifth slice of
pizza, you know, or, or, or

923
00:29:02,030 --> 00:29:03,150
wherever you tap out, right?

924
00:29:03,180 --> 00:29:06,390
And I started to say, huh,
that's interesting because

925
00:29:06,390 --> 00:29:09,270
up until now, those book
buckets always felt so empty

926
00:29:09,270 --> 00:29:11,310
that, that, that they needed
all my time and attention.

927
00:29:11,700 --> 00:29:12,420
And now.

928
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,970
I can add more to it, but
they're just gonna overflow.

929
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,590
There's nothing else I'm
really gonna do there that

930
00:29:16,590 --> 00:29:17,700
that's meaningful, right?

931
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,440
Like I've started
nine companies.

932
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,050
If I start a 10th sort of who
gives a shit, that doesn't

933
00:29:22,050 --> 00:29:24,360
mean I had no ambition or that
somebody day I won't do it.

934
00:29:24,750 --> 00:29:28,650
I just know now that whereas
before it was a massive part

935
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,420
of my, my goal, my path.

936
00:29:30,420 --> 00:29:30,480
Yeah.

937
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:31,050
My identity.

938
00:29:31,605 --> 00:29:34,455
Now it's just not, what I
did was, and this was the

939
00:29:34,455 --> 00:29:38,085
most cathartic, I looked
around and I said, I bet

940
00:29:38,085 --> 00:29:39,885
there's other buckets and
other, and some people are

941
00:29:39,885 --> 00:29:41,955
listening to this going, oh,
you, you think so, idiot.

942
00:29:42,195 --> 00:29:42,525
Yeah, right.

943
00:29:43,815 --> 00:29:45,795
But you know, your family
bucket, your health bucket,

944
00:29:45,795 --> 00:29:47,715
your relationship bucket,
your spirituality bucket,

945
00:29:47,715 --> 00:29:50,025
you know your fitness bucket
or health, but you name it.

946
00:29:50,115 --> 00:29:53,115
And you're like, how much
time do I spend filling those?

947
00:29:53,115 --> 00:29:55,215
And a friend of mine, a
founder told me this years

948
00:29:55,215 --> 00:29:57,465
ago, one of our listeners,
so hopefully, uh, they'll

949
00:29:57,465 --> 00:29:58,905
remember this says to me.

950
00:29:59,835 --> 00:30:03,885
Will imagine if you spent
as much time and attention

951
00:30:03,975 --> 00:30:08,565
and purpose and passion on
your relationships as you

952
00:30:08,565 --> 00:30:09,680
did with your business.

953
00:30:10,605 --> 00:30:12,945
You were that intense about
making your relationships

954
00:30:13,005 --> 00:30:14,715
and I was like, well, I think
everybody would hate me, but

955
00:30:15,675 --> 00:30:17,145
I would've exited three of them.

956
00:30:17,325 --> 00:30:19,575
Four would've failed and
I'd still be running one.

957
00:30:20,565 --> 00:30:21,075
Exactly.

958
00:30:21,165 --> 00:30:21,645
Exactly.

959
00:30:21,945 --> 00:30:23,415
But, but it was, it
was a good point.

960
00:30:23,475 --> 00:30:26,415
Hey, will, you know, uh, there
are these other buckets that

961
00:30:26,415 --> 00:30:31,725
you woefully under invested,
and what if the next level of

962
00:30:31,725 --> 00:30:34,455
happiness or, or excitement or
whatever that you're looking for

963
00:30:34,785 --> 00:30:36,765
isn't in the bucket that you've
been filling this whole time?

964
00:30:36,765 --> 00:30:37,395
That's the thing.

965
00:30:37,995 --> 00:30:38,895
So for me it was hobbies.

966
00:30:39,495 --> 00:30:41,475
I went out and I started
to realize that there's

967
00:30:41,475 --> 00:30:42,675
some things that I enjoy.

968
00:30:42,675 --> 00:30:43,815
You know, carpentry is my thing.

969
00:30:44,115 --> 00:30:47,625
Uh, building a house is my thing
that actually have nothing to

970
00:30:47,625 --> 00:30:49,155
do with building a startup.

971
00:30:49,274 --> 00:30:50,685
You know, there's some
parallels, but, but really

972
00:30:50,685 --> 00:30:51,495
nothing to do with it.

973
00:30:52,155 --> 00:30:54,524
But were buckets that were
completely empty, that I

974
00:30:54,524 --> 00:30:56,805
finally got that first pizza.

975
00:30:56,805 --> 00:30:57,945
Pizza feeling about, yet
you're back, back to full

976
00:30:57,945 --> 00:30:58,514
utility.

977
00:30:58,545 --> 00:30:59,805
You're back to full utility.

978
00:30:59,805 --> 00:30:59,895
Right.

979
00:30:59,895 --> 00:31:00,135
Exactly.

980
00:31:00,135 --> 00:31:02,385
And I think that's where
it's, it's this, you're gotta

981
00:31:02,385 --> 00:31:03,645
hedge your bets on more.

982
00:31:04,695 --> 00:31:06,615
You gotta spread things
around a little bit and, and

983
00:31:06,615 --> 00:31:07,875
just so much benefit to it.

984
00:31:07,875 --> 00:31:08,024
Right?

985
00:31:08,024 --> 00:31:09,195
I think you named
off a bunch of 'em.

986
00:31:09,195 --> 00:31:12,345
For me it's been
relationships, wellness,

987
00:31:12,585 --> 00:31:14,145
some craft and projects.

988
00:31:14,145 --> 00:31:16,365
A lot of sport and
philanthropy have been the

989
00:31:16,365 --> 00:31:17,294
things that have landed.

990
00:31:17,294 --> 00:31:19,965
Like all of a sudden I found
like, wow, there's, there's

991
00:31:19,965 --> 00:31:22,514
something really, really
enjoyable here and I'm getting

992
00:31:22,514 --> 00:31:23,804
a lot of utility out of it.

993
00:31:24,165 --> 00:31:26,115
Um, and they're bringing me
joy in ways that the, the

994
00:31:26,115 --> 00:31:28,845
other things that I was chasing
hadn't for some time because I'd

995
00:31:28,845 --> 00:31:30,074
already filled those buckets.

996
00:31:30,645 --> 00:31:32,655
Like another part of it's
novelty, like a hundred percent.

997
00:31:32,655 --> 00:31:35,685
Like I said, when if I go
and start a 10th startup,

998
00:31:36,045 --> 00:31:37,545
there's nothing novel about it.

999
00:31:37,545 --> 00:31:37,695
Yeah.

1000
00:31:37,695 --> 00:31:39,765
Something we'll, we'll do
maybe the team, et cetera,

1001
00:31:40,125 --> 00:31:42,585
but I've been on the journey
a million times also.

1002
00:31:42,585 --> 00:31:44,685
You know, that's kinda what's
cool about this business is

1003
00:31:44,685 --> 00:31:47,265
I basically get to live all
these other lives Vis, yeah.

1004
00:31:47,265 --> 00:31:49,455
All these other founders
without having to do that.

1005
00:31:49,665 --> 00:31:49,995
Yes.

1006
00:31:50,050 --> 00:31:51,790
But my thought was like,
man, what if I started

1007
00:31:51,790 --> 00:31:53,980
investing in other journeys,
other buckets, you know?

1008
00:31:53,980 --> 00:31:55,060
So I learned to
become a carpenter.

1009
00:31:55,060 --> 00:31:56,080
I learned to become
an architect.

1010
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,280
I learned to become
a 3D modeler.

1011
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,510
I learned, you know, I
learned all these other

1012
00:31:58,510 --> 00:32:00,010
things, and I became.

1013
00:32:00,735 --> 00:32:02,835
I had just as much passion.

1014
00:32:03,165 --> 00:32:05,235
Like Ryan, you remember when
you and I first started and

1015
00:32:05,235 --> 00:32:08,025
like everything we learned
from how like a pro forma

1016
00:32:08,025 --> 00:32:10,185
income statement works
to how marketing works to

1017
00:32:10,185 --> 00:32:11,985
like how HTML works, right?

1018
00:32:12,195 --> 00:32:12,285
Yes.

1019
00:32:12,825 --> 00:32:14,145
Was so exciting.

1020
00:32:14,205 --> 00:32:14,265
Yeah.

1021
00:32:14,265 --> 00:32:15,705
'cause it was so new novel.

1022
00:32:15,855 --> 00:32:17,025
Zero to 100 moment.

1023
00:32:17,295 --> 00:32:20,115
I think part of what I
lost on this path is I

1024
00:32:20,115 --> 00:32:21,495
ran out of those moments.

1025
00:32:21,675 --> 00:32:21,825
Yeah.

1026
00:32:21,825 --> 00:32:22,065
'cause

1027
00:32:22,065 --> 00:32:23,085
this bucket was full.

1028
00:32:23,355 --> 00:32:26,295
The 5000000th line
of HTML code I wrote.

1029
00:32:26,955 --> 00:32:29,175
Was not nearly as exciting.

1030
00:32:29,325 --> 00:32:29,685
Right?

1031
00:32:29,805 --> 00:32:31,845
Not nearly as exciting.

1032
00:32:32,325 --> 00:32:34,515
Did it's, we can all
recognize that we go Yeah.

1033
00:32:34,515 --> 00:32:36,555
Anytime you, any, anytime
you do that much of

1034
00:32:36,555 --> 00:32:37,515
something, it's gonna lose.

1035
00:32:37,515 --> 00:32:40,335
Its, but, and yet we don't
recognize that in some

1036
00:32:40,335 --> 00:32:41,470
of the most important
aspects of our lives.

1037
00:32:42,435 --> 00:32:44,295
Some of the, where we spend
most of our time, all of a

1038
00:32:44,295 --> 00:32:46,305
sudden we're like, well, haven't
rethought that in a while.

1039
00:32:46,425 --> 00:32:46,785
Why?

1040
00:32:46,875 --> 00:32:47,205
Right.

1041
00:32:47,355 --> 00:32:49,665
And, and I don't wanna
believe people are all

1042
00:32:49,665 --> 00:32:50,625
that one dimensional.

1043
00:32:50,685 --> 00:32:53,535
I don't wanna believe when I
meet founder person that she's

1044
00:32:53,535 --> 00:32:55,815
sitting there going, well,
all I can do is my startup.

1045
00:32:55,815 --> 00:32:57,495
There's nothing else that
would possibly bring me joy.

1046
00:32:57,495 --> 00:32:59,565
And I'm like, maybe that
actually, I mean, I, I

1047
00:32:59,565 --> 00:33:00,465
can't speak for everybody.

1048
00:33:00,495 --> 00:33:03,825
Maybe that's, maybe that's
true, but it feels shortsighted.

1049
00:33:04,715 --> 00:33:07,685
It feels like you really didn't
try too hard to, to, to look

1050
00:33:07,685 --> 00:33:08,764
at some of these other buckets.

1051
00:33:08,854 --> 00:33:08,945
Yeah.

1052
00:33:08,945 --> 00:33:11,975
And again, maybe you did, maybe
you did the full analysis and

1053
00:33:11,975 --> 00:33:14,195
this is all that matters to
you and all the power to you.

1054
00:33:14,554 --> 00:33:14,675
And

1055
00:33:14,675 --> 00:33:16,534
if you're still getting
utility and and something

1056
00:33:16,534 --> 00:33:17,554
from it, then great.

1057
00:33:17,584 --> 00:33:19,084
I think you just have to
start to question it when

1058
00:33:19,084 --> 00:33:22,625
it's like, this doesn't
fill me in any way anymore.

1059
00:33:22,774 --> 00:33:24,004
That's where it
becomes problematic.

1060
00:33:24,004 --> 00:33:26,615
And I think part of that,
especially in the founder

1061
00:33:26,615 --> 00:33:32,104
space, is this sense of
responsibility to a mission,

1062
00:33:32,104 --> 00:33:33,514
to a level of achievement.

1063
00:33:34,125 --> 00:33:37,275
Maybe nobody else is paying
any attention to, but

1064
00:33:37,275 --> 00:33:40,035
that we internally feel
like we have to achieve.

1065
00:33:40,035 --> 00:33:42,165
We have to get there, we
have to do these things,

1066
00:33:42,915 --> 00:33:43,875
traps us into that.

1067
00:33:43,995 --> 00:33:45,825
Like I, I think to some
degree, part of what we can

1068
00:33:45,825 --> 00:33:47,775
do today will, is just give
people permission to go look

1069
00:33:47,775 --> 00:33:50,595
at some other buckets and do
it before that bucket's full.

1070
00:33:50,595 --> 00:33:52,755
Your startup also doesn't have
to achieved everything that's

1071
00:33:52,755 --> 00:33:55,395
ever going to achieve before
you start filling other buckets.

1072
00:33:55,605 --> 00:33:56,775
You don't have to wait.

1073
00:33:57,195 --> 00:33:59,085
I don't think it took
me a very long time.

1074
00:33:59,085 --> 00:34:00,495
It took me decades to realize.

1075
00:34:00,870 --> 00:34:03,480
That there were other buckets
and, and, and I don't mean

1076
00:34:03,515 --> 00:34:05,190
I, I was like so myopic.

1077
00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:08,940
What I'm saying is like,
I didn't understand that

1078
00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:12,510
anything could be more
rewarding, so to speak Yes.

1079
00:34:12,510 --> 00:34:13,980
Than building company

1080
00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:15,270
because it was the
biggest reward.

1081
00:34:15,270 --> 00:34:16,530
I mean, in your
case in particular.

1082
00:34:16,530 --> 00:34:19,110
Well, it was, it was freedom
and safety for you that

1083
00:34:19,110 --> 00:34:22,620
you probably never believed
was possible once you felt

1084
00:34:22,620 --> 00:34:24,570
that it's a powerful drug.

1085
00:34:24,574 --> 00:34:24,795
Right.

1086
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:25,050
Right.

1087
00:34:25,050 --> 00:34:27,389
So there's some, to some
degree there, there is a level

1088
00:34:27,389 --> 00:34:28,501
of addiction to what we do.

1089
00:34:29,310 --> 00:34:29,580
Right.

1090
00:34:29,580 --> 00:34:29,760
Yeah.

1091
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:30,855
And, and we have
to question it and

1092
00:34:30,860 --> 00:34:31,920
self preservation, right?

1093
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:32,040
Yeah.

1094
00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:33,510
But I think, well, I'm
definitely addicted

1095
00:34:33,510 --> 00:34:35,850
to self preservation
like we all should be.

1096
00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:40,950
One of the things I've learned
though, is that my ambition.

1097
00:34:42,615 --> 00:34:43,395
Expects value.

1098
00:34:43,395 --> 00:34:43,455
Yeah.

1099
00:34:43,695 --> 00:34:48,045
My ambition becomes painful
at some point, of course,

1100
00:34:48,045 --> 00:34:49,815
when I don't feel the
value is being rewarded.

1101
00:34:50,055 --> 00:34:50,625
Okay, yeah.

1102
00:34:50,625 --> 00:34:50,626
Yeah.

1103
00:34:50,805 --> 00:34:53,715
It's when I go to the bar and I
order that drink and it's $37,

1104
00:34:54,195 --> 00:34:56,565
I'm like, you know how hard
I work to be at this bar, and

1105
00:34:56,565 --> 00:34:59,955
now I feel like a chump because
I'm not getting my value again.

1106
00:35:00,165 --> 00:35:01,575
I quietly grumble by myself.

1107
00:35:01,575 --> 00:35:04,005
I'm just not that guy that like
creates the scene, but in my

1108
00:35:04,005 --> 00:35:05,955
mind I'm like, I, I get it.

1109
00:35:05,955 --> 00:35:08,835
I understand why this is
happening, but I'm mad and

1110
00:35:08,835 --> 00:35:10,845
the reason is I expect.

1111
00:35:11,490 --> 00:35:13,859
If I work really hard
for something that I'm

1112
00:35:13,859 --> 00:35:16,500
gonna get value out of,
out of that relationship.

1113
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:16,710
Right.

1114
00:35:16,980 --> 00:35:18,600
A good example is
a spoiled child.

1115
00:35:19,170 --> 00:35:19,259
Yeah.

1116
00:35:19,259 --> 00:35:22,680
You work so hard to raise this
child and provide for them

1117
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,890
and you sacrifice so much and
then they're a-holes and you

1118
00:35:25,890 --> 00:35:29,220
look at that and you're angry
know for all these reasons,

1119
00:35:29,220 --> 00:35:32,339
but part of that is your
ambition in what you, you put

1120
00:35:32,339 --> 00:35:34,620
into this expected a return.

1121
00:35:34,620 --> 00:35:36,450
Now whether or not that
was an entitlement you

1122
00:35:36,450 --> 00:35:38,310
shouldn't have had is, is,
is subject to question.

1123
00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:38,370
Yeah.

1124
00:35:38,370 --> 00:35:38,910
Everybody's different.

1125
00:35:39,915 --> 00:35:41,145
That's why you feel that way.

1126
00:35:41,355 --> 00:35:43,904
Years ago, and Ryan, I think you
remember this, my family and I,

1127
00:35:44,175 --> 00:35:45,225
we had moved to Beverly Hills.

1128
00:35:45,495 --> 00:35:46,365
We had a nice enough house.

1129
00:35:46,365 --> 00:35:47,265
It wasn't very big.

1130
00:35:47,384 --> 00:35:49,455
Not that that was an issue, but
it was like particularly small.

1131
00:35:49,815 --> 00:35:52,065
And uh, my son was born,
so there's four of us.

1132
00:35:52,065 --> 00:35:54,615
We just ran outta a room and
we went to go look for another

1133
00:35:54,615 --> 00:35:56,085
house after a year and a half.

1134
00:35:56,115 --> 00:35:58,095
'cause finding real estate
in LA is nearly impossible.

1135
00:35:58,335 --> 00:36:00,435
We find this house in Bel Arrow,
it's like 10 minutes away.

1136
00:36:00,435 --> 00:36:00,495
Yeah.

1137
00:36:00,705 --> 00:36:02,175
We weren't trying to be
in Bel Arrow wasn't trying

1138
00:36:02,175 --> 00:36:02,895
to be the fresh prince.

1139
00:36:02,895 --> 00:36:05,295
That just, just happened to be
where the, where the house was.

1140
00:36:05,495 --> 00:36:05,645
Yeah.

1141
00:36:05,675 --> 00:36:05,795
Yeah.

1142
00:36:05,795 --> 00:36:06,965
And not a lot of inventory.

1143
00:36:07,115 --> 00:36:08,735
We're ready to pull the
trigger on this house.

1144
00:36:08,975 --> 00:36:11,495
It was really expensive,
and my wife and I sit down.

1145
00:36:11,675 --> 00:36:13,955
I'm like, Hey, like this
is, this is what I've

1146
00:36:13,955 --> 00:36:15,005
been working so hard for.

1147
00:36:15,005 --> 00:36:16,835
Like this is, this is
where I cash in my ticket.

1148
00:36:17,220 --> 00:36:21,390
And my wife, who's my wife for
a reason is like, fuck this.

1149
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,870
She's like, there's no way we're
spending this much money Yeah.

1150
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:26,040
In getting this little value.

1151
00:36:26,045 --> 00:36:26,225
Yeah,

1152
00:36:26,225 --> 00:36:26,520
yeah, yeah.

1153
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:27,150
Right now.

1154
00:36:27,150 --> 00:36:29,220
And, and we moved back to
Ohio the, the next week.

1155
00:36:29,370 --> 00:36:29,850
Right, right.

1156
00:36:29,850 --> 00:36:31,890
So to give you an idea how
Committ talk about flipping,

1157
00:36:31,890 --> 00:36:33,420
were talking strict on,
on money for value there.

1158
00:36:33,420 --> 00:36:33,570
Yeah.

1159
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:34,620
No.

1160
00:36:34,620 --> 00:36:36,390
There was a point where
we were just like, dude,

1161
00:36:36,390 --> 00:36:37,860
this is so expensive.

1162
00:36:37,950 --> 00:36:38,250
Yeah.

1163
00:36:38,340 --> 00:36:39,750
We're on a postage
stamp of land.

1164
00:36:40,605 --> 00:36:40,905
Right.

1165
00:36:40,905 --> 00:36:44,355
Like, it's like by the time
we pull our car out of the

1166
00:36:44,355 --> 00:36:46,755
garage, our headlight is
still in the garage where our

1167
00:36:46,755 --> 00:36:47,775
taillight is in the street.

1168
00:36:47,955 --> 00:36:48,315
Right.

1169
00:36:48,615 --> 00:36:50,205
This is like a big house.

1170
00:36:50,415 --> 00:36:50,685
Right.

1171
00:36:50,685 --> 00:36:54,705
It's it's crazy expensive and,
and she was like, for what we're

1172
00:36:54,705 --> 00:36:59,775
spending, what we could get
literally anywhere else, right?

1173
00:36:59,985 --> 00:37:02,625
Has so much more value,
would feel like that money

1174
00:37:02,625 --> 00:37:04,065
went towards something here.

1175
00:37:04,065 --> 00:37:06,645
Every time we pull in
the garage, it's gonna

1176
00:37:06,645 --> 00:37:07,935
be a $37 cocktail.

1177
00:37:08,265 --> 00:37:09,825
We're supposed to
feel good about it.

1178
00:37:10,395 --> 00:37:10,455
Yeah.

1179
00:37:10,455 --> 00:37:11,295
We feel like a chump.

1180
00:37:11,565 --> 00:37:11,655
Yeah.

1181
00:37:11,655 --> 00:37:12,675
Every single time.

1182
00:37:13,155 --> 00:37:15,075
And, and No, and I told her,
I was like, you know what?

1183
00:37:15,075 --> 00:37:15,615
You're right.

1184
00:37:15,795 --> 00:37:18,255
I was like, my ambition
expects some value.

1185
00:37:18,735 --> 00:37:18,915
Yeah.

1186
00:37:18,945 --> 00:37:20,595
And, and it, and when that

1187
00:37:20,895 --> 00:37:22,665
the calculus doesn't add
up, you feel like a chump.

1188
00:37:22,815 --> 00:37:24,195
That's when you have to
start to backpedal a little

1189
00:37:24,195 --> 00:37:26,295
bit and say like, okay,
so what is my ambition

1190
00:37:26,295 --> 00:37:27,405
actually pointing me towards?

1191
00:37:27,405 --> 00:37:28,090
Right, right.

1192
00:37:28,090 --> 00:37:30,765
And, and you know, I think
ambition's still welcome,

1193
00:37:31,335 --> 00:37:32,475
but we have to reprice it.

1194
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:36,509
Because ambition's not the
enemy mispriced ambition, right?

1195
00:37:36,509 --> 00:37:38,790
Where ambition just leads
to that, you know, that,

1196
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:41,040
that inverted value curve,
that's where it becomes

1197
00:37:41,220 --> 00:37:42,419
problematic, right?

1198
00:37:42,419 --> 00:37:45,000
The add you mean when you
say mispriced, I think I like

1199
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,589
this concept, but I wanna
hear how you think about it.

1200
00:37:46,589 --> 00:37:46,740
Yeah.

1201
00:37:46,740 --> 00:37:50,129
So think about the cost of,
of ambition in terms of time,

1202
00:37:50,129 --> 00:37:51,569
capital, stress, whatever.

1203
00:37:51,870 --> 00:37:54,810
And then think about the,
the, the return, joy,

1204
00:37:54,839 --> 00:37:56,669
freedom, impact, right?

1205
00:37:57,255 --> 00:38:00,075
Then think about the, how that
leads to the decision around

1206
00:38:00,134 --> 00:38:05,384
where we will get the better
kind of cost averaging or return

1207
00:38:05,565 --> 00:38:06,855
on that investment, right?

1208
00:38:06,855 --> 00:38:10,245
So if we reprice our ambition
a bit and we start to say that

1209
00:38:10,245 --> 00:38:13,545
like, look, my ambition directed
here has a certain value.

1210
00:38:13,935 --> 00:38:15,765
It's almost like it's,
it's the same thing, right?

1211
00:38:15,765 --> 00:38:17,444
So if you ambition, if you're
spending your ambition,

1212
00:38:17,444 --> 00:38:19,365
you're turned ambition into
dollars, you're spending

1213
00:38:19,365 --> 00:38:23,685
your ambition in, in Bel
Air versus in Powell, Ohio.

1214
00:38:24,405 --> 00:38:26,055
Those are very
differently priced.

1215
00:38:26,055 --> 00:38:26,235
Right.

1216
00:38:26,235 --> 00:38:29,145
Same effort, completely
different value return.

1217
00:38:29,370 --> 00:38:29,720
Right?

1218
00:38:29,865 --> 00:38:29,955
Right.

1219
00:38:29,955 --> 00:38:32,805
And so I think this is where we
have to start to say like, what

1220
00:38:32,805 --> 00:38:34,545
can I point my ambition towards?

1221
00:38:34,545 --> 00:38:36,765
And this is going back to the,
the previous segment, which

1222
00:38:36,765 --> 00:38:40,035
is just look at some other
buckets and, and start to

1223
00:38:40,035 --> 00:38:42,645
say like, I need to maximize
my utility across buckets,

1224
00:38:42,645 --> 00:38:43,470
not just in a singular.

1225
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:44,820
Yeah.

1226
00:38:44,825 --> 00:38:47,430
And, and, and I think
that for most folks, uh,

1227
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:48,450
we get the ambition part.

1228
00:38:48,450 --> 00:38:49,230
That's how we're founders.

1229
00:38:49,230 --> 00:38:51,570
That's kind of, you know, what
we do and we're good at that.

1230
00:38:51,930 --> 00:38:55,770
Where we fail is we, we
don't have a sense for, will

1231
00:38:55,770 --> 00:38:56,640
I cross the finish line?

1232
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,690
Will I win enough Super Bowls?

1233
00:38:57,690 --> 00:38:57,780
Yeah.

1234
00:38:57,780 --> 00:39:00,180
When I win, win enough, uh,
you know, tour de France, like,

1235
00:39:00,210 --> 00:39:01,650
uh, medals, so to speak, right?

1236
00:39:01,650 --> 00:39:02,310
Like in life.

1237
00:39:02,550 --> 00:39:04,920
And so what we do is
we just go blindly.

1238
00:39:05,444 --> 00:39:06,794
Toward finish line
after finish line.

1239
00:39:06,794 --> 00:39:07,334
After finish line.

1240
00:39:07,365 --> 00:39:07,564
Yeah.

1241
00:39:07,564 --> 00:39:07,566
Yeah.

1242
00:39:07,571 --> 00:39:09,285
With really no
end game in sight,

1243
00:39:09,435 --> 00:39:09,674
right?

1244
00:39:09,734 --> 00:39:09,854
No.

1245
00:39:09,854 --> 00:39:10,125
And then at

1246
00:39:10,125 --> 00:39:12,674
some point we get the
10 slice of pizza.

1247
00:39:12,884 --> 00:39:15,314
We don't even, we're not even,
we're sick at this point.

1248
00:39:15,314 --> 00:39:15,375
Yeah.

1249
00:39:15,375 --> 00:39:17,444
Like we ruined ourselves
in so many ways.

1250
00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:17,589
Yeah.

1251
00:39:17,890 --> 00:39:19,549
And all we know is
how to eat more pizza.

1252
00:39:20,205 --> 00:39:22,395
Right, and this is just
in every aspect of life.

1253
00:39:22,755 --> 00:39:25,875
So I think for all of us, for
founders, we need to know,

1254
00:39:25,935 --> 00:39:27,075
you know, when to say, when.

1255
00:39:27,165 --> 00:39:29,535
We need to know what
our ideal limit is.

1256
00:39:29,745 --> 00:39:34,395
When it's time to stop eating
and go, go do something else.

1257
00:39:34,424 --> 00:39:35,715
Go focus on something else.

1258
00:39:35,715 --> 00:39:37,875
Find that other
bucket that creates

1259
00:39:37,875 --> 00:39:39,435
geometrically more value.

1260
00:39:39,475 --> 00:39:41,815
For every bite than what
we had a moment ago.

1261
00:39:41,815 --> 00:39:44,485
And I think when we find that
other thing, all of a sudden

1262
00:39:44,485 --> 00:39:45,415
our world lights up again.

1263
00:39:45,415 --> 00:39:48,085
All of a sudden we're like,
damn, dude, this is how my

1264
00:39:48,085 --> 00:39:49,825
ambition was supposed to pay me.

1265
00:39:50,035 --> 00:39:52,825
It wasn't just dollars, it
wasn't just us being on,

1266
00:39:52,825 --> 00:39:54,835
you know, some building,
the biggest startup ever.

1267
00:39:55,105 --> 00:39:56,880
I was supposed to
actually be happier.

1268
00:39:57,355 --> 00:40:01,105
Right, your ambition as
founders, you deserve more

1269
00:40:01,105 --> 00:40:02,305
from your ambition, right?

1270
00:40:02,455 --> 00:40:05,785
You work for it, but if you're
gonna actually enjoy it, if

1271
00:40:05,785 --> 00:40:08,485
you're gonna get what you
deserve, you have to know when

1272
00:40:08,485 --> 00:40:10,944
to walk away from the table
and say, enough is enough.

1273
00:40:11,125 --> 00:40:13,120
I'm just so damn happy
with what I have.

1274
00:40:14,625 --> 00:40:16,455
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.

1275
00:40:16,875 --> 00:40:19,754
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,

1276
00:40:19,754 --> 00:40:22,694
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.

1277
00:40:22,935 --> 00:40:25,274
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors

1278
00:40:25,274 --> 00:40:27,705
helping them win in the
startups.com community.

1279
00:40:27,855 --> 00:40:32,504
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com

1280
00:40:32,595 --> 00:40:33,555
to see if it's for you.

1281
00:40:33,765 --> 00:40:34,814
Could be just the
thing you need.

1282
00:40:35,024 --> 00:40:36,015
I hope to see you inside.