WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:02.997 Let's say that we have a calling from the Lord, we have gifts, 00:00:03.297 --> 00:00:05.857 natural gifts, and then there's character. 00:00:06.457 --> 00:00:09.697 What's the one that you have to have in order to move forward? 00:00:10.037 --> 00:00:11.977 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. 00:00:13.237 --> 00:00:17.777 I'm Pastor Luke. I am Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, 00:00:17.857 --> 00:00:23.297 where we have honest and uncut conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:25.137 --> 00:00:29.377 We're here on a beautiful Tuesday. Tuesday. 00:00:30.057 --> 00:00:35.037 Yeah, it's not a normal recording day, so it feels like, oh my gosh, 00:00:35.097 --> 00:00:36.977 is it actually later in the week than it actually is? 00:00:37.057 --> 00:00:39.277 Dear Lord, please, let's not make it Thursday. 00:00:40.537 --> 00:00:47.137 Yeah, we did a lot of calendaring and looking forward and planning and stuff, and so we're, 00:00:47.877 --> 00:00:50.757 I'm sure our heads are running a gazillion different directions, 00:00:51.077 --> 00:00:55.917 but we wanted to sit down and talk about, pick up some of the conversation that 00:00:55.917 --> 00:00:58.537 we left off from last week. Last week. 00:00:58.977 --> 00:01:03.797 We kind of started out by talking about preaching, and we kind of ran ourselves 00:01:03.797 --> 00:01:08.737 around to talking about calling in the ministry, so... 00:01:09.877 --> 00:01:12.877 Yeah, Cameron, did you have any thoughts about where you wanted to kind of start 00:01:12.877 --> 00:01:15.357 in that conversation? Because it's a pretty big one. 00:01:15.777 --> 00:01:20.057 It is, and I think we mentioned a little bit of it last week, 00:01:20.057 --> 00:01:26.317 in that typically when we talk about when Christians use the term calling, 00:01:27.317 --> 00:01:33.037 they are usually referring to occupational ministry. 00:01:33.717 --> 00:01:35.977 Jared Poline Yeah. A lot of times. Paul Sherman A lot of times. 00:01:36.137 --> 00:01:40.237 What you would do, what I do, what other ministry leaders would do. 00:01:40.257 --> 00:01:43.577 Jared Poline We are on staff at a church. Paul Sherman We're on staff at a church, right? 00:01:43.617 --> 00:01:47.937 And that's typically what people think of, I think, at least in my experience, 00:01:48.137 --> 00:01:52.157 when you talk about, are you called into ministry? 00:01:54.897 --> 00:01:57.037 I get that, I understand why. 00:01:59.949 --> 00:02:06.049 But I think if we, when we take a look at Scripture, the New Testament in particular, 00:02:07.349 --> 00:02:10.169 well, not even the New Testament, the whole Bible, the whole Scripture, 00:02:11.049 --> 00:02:17.949 the example that we see is that, yeah, there are people who are called, 00:02:20.829 --> 00:02:27.289 occupationally in ministry. They have gifts that are associated with that calling, 00:02:28.709 --> 00:02:33.309 which is one of the things that I want to talk about. Does gifts equal calling? 00:02:39.769 --> 00:02:44.329 But then there is, so yeah, I'm called to ministry, I have gifts, 00:02:44.409 --> 00:02:45.949 does that mean I have to work in a church? 00:02:46.709 --> 00:02:51.389 So there's that type of calling, but then scripture is pretty clear also that 00:02:51.389 --> 00:02:56.889 there's occupational ministry, but there's also that there really is not anyone 00:02:56.889 --> 00:02:59.589 one who is in Christ who is not called. 00:03:01.489 --> 00:03:09.329 So, I think first, when we talk about calling in ministry, we have to understand 00:03:09.329 --> 00:03:14.809 that it's a pretty comprehensive conversation. 00:03:15.429 --> 00:03:24.749 That it's not relegated to simply those who are, may or may not earn a living from it. 00:03:27.009 --> 00:03:31.229 And how those things are different, or if they're different or not. 00:03:34.689 --> 00:03:41.189 So would you say, are you of the opinion then that everyone has a calling from 00:03:41.189 --> 00:03:44.629 the Lord, it's just a question as to what that calling is? Oh, 00:03:44.709 --> 00:03:46.449 yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 00:03:47.449 --> 00:03:55.769 I think the scriptures declare that too. Okay. You know, I think that there is a, you know, 00:03:57.239 --> 00:04:03.879 In the timeline of human history and people's relationship with the Lord, 00:04:04.379 --> 00:04:10.579 like the recorded relationship with the Lord, the occupational ministry is relatively 00:04:10.579 --> 00:04:13.499 new in the grand timeline. 00:04:14.739 --> 00:04:20.139 I don't know. I suppose in the first couple centuries, you know, 00:04:20.219 --> 00:04:24.639 people began to make their living, their occupational living. 00:04:25.459 --> 00:04:34.039 From, you know, the, from well, being a leader in the church or in the Christian community. 00:04:34.499 --> 00:04:38.399 Well, could you, I mean, could you make an argument that Paul was occupational? 00:04:38.699 --> 00:04:42.259 I mean, he certainly did some tent building. Yeah, no, I like, 00:04:42.379 --> 00:04:44.659 yeah, for certain, for certain. 00:04:45.459 --> 00:04:50.039 He was supported by, you know, he was a mission, Paul was a missionary. Right, yeah. 00:04:50.499 --> 00:04:52.699 You know, and like, maybe that's not even really a fair statement, 00:04:52.779 --> 00:04:58.599 because even like going back to the Levites, they were certainly occupational. 00:04:58.999 --> 00:05:04.959 You know, the nation of Israel supported their occupational ministry, so... 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:08.539 The modern conception of occupational ministry in which that, 00:05:08.799 --> 00:05:14.839 like, this isn't true for most Christian denominations is that the pastors, 00:05:15.579 --> 00:05:17.619 largely apart from working at a church. 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:20.559 Can kind of blend into society. 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:27.799 There was a point at which occupational ministry or calling into ministry meant 00:05:27.799 --> 00:05:32.219 you were a monk or a priest and... Or a nun. 00:05:32.339 --> 00:05:39.159 Or a nun, or you were somehow sequestered from the rest of society in a unique fashion. 00:05:39.159 --> 00:05:45.059 And you wore a collar, you wore certain clothes everywhere you went, 00:05:45.479 --> 00:05:47.959 like you lived in a certain place. 00:05:50.695 --> 00:05:58.315 Oh, parsonage. The practice of parsonages, which if you're not familiar is... 00:05:58.315 --> 00:05:59.815 A lot of churches still have these. 00:06:00.135 --> 00:06:04.795 It's less common, but many churches in denomination still practice having parsonages, 00:06:05.075 --> 00:06:10.595 which is a house that's typically near, if not next to, the church property, 00:06:11.115 --> 00:06:15.935 in which the pastor and his family live, or just the pastor or whatever. 00:06:17.215 --> 00:06:21.675 And so it's a property owned by the church, provided for the pastor to live in. 00:06:22.995 --> 00:06:29.335 But that's probably some of the most unique ways in which we're set apart. 00:06:29.495 --> 00:06:33.835 But largely, you and I walk through town, and if people don't know us personally, 00:06:34.335 --> 00:06:36.555 there's no... Yeah, unless you have a collar on or something like that, 00:06:36.635 --> 00:06:38.155 clerical collar. Yeah, there's no distinction. 00:06:38.555 --> 00:06:46.415 So I think that has maybe... The occupation of pastor and ministry is, 00:06:47.115 --> 00:06:52.115 in that kind of sense, a relatively new thing, but as far as something that 00:06:52.115 --> 00:06:56.715 you do in a practically full -time capacity, 00:06:56.855 --> 00:07:02.655 I think that's probably very, very, very old in some form. Yeah, I agree. 00:07:03.075 --> 00:07:06.595 I recant my original statement. It is not new. 00:07:07.295 --> 00:07:10.795 In fact, I was just trying to remember the reference, but 1 Timothy, 00:07:11.315 --> 00:07:14.455 Paul was writing to 1 Timothy, you know, hey, do not, you know, 00:07:14.515 --> 00:07:17.595 do not muzzle the ox whilst treading the grain, 00:07:17.675 --> 00:07:23.615 which was a reference essentially to the way in which agrarian societies when 00:07:23.615 --> 00:07:27.475 they were using oxen to crush grain to use for baking, 00:07:27.855 --> 00:07:30.535 some of them would sometimes, 00:07:31.045 --> 00:07:34.815 put a muzzle, a little muzzle on the ox so that as it was walking it did not 00:07:34.815 --> 00:07:38.175 eat the grain that it was crushing, right? 00:07:38.375 --> 00:07:42.075 And the idea there was, hey, listen, and the ox is doing the work, 00:07:42.875 --> 00:07:46.295 let him take a bite. It should eat a little bit, right? 00:07:47.515 --> 00:07:50.615 Paul says that to Timothy, I think it's in 1 Timothy chapter five, 00:07:51.815 --> 00:07:53.595 but it's not original to Paul. 00:07:53.895 --> 00:07:59.115 It's original to Deuteronomy, which is early, early, early, you know, 00:07:59.235 --> 00:08:02.275 in the, in Jewish history. 00:08:02.615 --> 00:08:06.275 So yeah, so, you know, maybe occupational ministry always has been, 00:08:06.355 --> 00:08:10.395 but certainly in a, you know, the way in which it shows up in life now It's 00:08:10.395 --> 00:08:12.195 a little bit different than everything else. 00:08:12.475 --> 00:08:18.355 But to answer the original question, yeah, I do believe that everyone has a calling. 00:08:20.055 --> 00:08:24.595 Not all is occupational. In fact, if we go to like, I had the Bible flipped 00:08:24.595 --> 00:08:27.855 over in here and we were reading a little bit before we turned on the mics, 00:08:28.015 --> 00:08:31.995 but in Ephesians chapter four, Paul, 00:08:34.131 --> 00:08:36.231 essentially says the same thing, that 00:08:36.231 --> 00:08:41.831 there is both, it appears to be both occupational and non -occupational, 00:08:42.451 --> 00:08:49.551 ministry, because he's not writing a letter here to the church in Ephesus that is. 00:08:52.191 --> 00:08:57.851 That is, they're not all professional Christians here, they're not all pastors, 00:08:58.091 --> 00:09:00.411 they're just lay people, right? 00:09:00.411 --> 00:09:05.051 So the context is he's talking to lay people, okay? So in Ephesians chapter 00:09:05.051 --> 00:09:08.871 four, he says this, as a prisoner for the Lord, then I urge you to live a life 00:09:08.871 --> 00:09:10.951 worthy of the calling that you have received. 00:09:12.651 --> 00:09:16.591 So right from the get, Paul's like, you have received a calling, 00:09:16.991 --> 00:09:20.451 don't squander it. Live a life that's worthy of it. 00:09:21.831 --> 00:09:28.251 And so, okay, what is the calling then? I think that it goes on to explain what the calling is. 00:09:30.231 --> 00:09:36.751 Be completely humble and gentle. Be patient, bearing with one another in love. 00:09:37.631 --> 00:09:41.931 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 00:09:42.531 --> 00:09:51.691 There's one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called one Lord, 00:09:52.171 --> 00:09:58.291 one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 00:09:58.291 --> 00:10:06.091 But to each one of us, grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. That would be like. 00:10:07.521 --> 00:10:13.041 A way of saying like everyone is called to each one of us grace has been given, 00:10:13.741 --> 00:10:15.821 as Christ has apportioned it. 00:10:17.841 --> 00:10:24.281 And then it goes on in verse 11 to say, so Christ himself gave some to be apostles, 00:10:24.841 --> 00:10:27.921 some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, 00:10:28.561 --> 00:10:33.921 some to be pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service so 00:10:33.921 --> 00:10:38.741 that the body of Christ may be built up until we will all reach unity in faith 00:10:38.741 --> 00:10:41.501 and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, 00:10:42.061 --> 00:10:45.381 attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. He goes on and on and on and on. 00:10:47.621 --> 00:10:59.581 But I think what Paul goes on to communicate there is that every single one of us, 00:11:01.581 --> 00:11:06.361 those who are Christian, I would say, have been called by the Lord, 00:11:07.201 --> 00:11:13.881 and the calling is not on our occupation, the calling is on our character. 00:11:15.261 --> 00:11:20.541 Like, he has called us to be humble and gentle. 00:11:21.201 --> 00:11:24.761 He has called us to be unified in the Spirit. 00:11:25.221 --> 00:11:30.081 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all. 00:11:30.081 --> 00:11:41.561 And this is where, how I usually try to describe to people how to begin to discern a call, is that, 00:11:43.381 --> 00:11:50.381 and it's the same kind of thing where like we're trying to discern in a situation 00:11:50.381 --> 00:11:53.701 what God's will is for our life. 00:11:56.101 --> 00:12:04.281 God's will for our lives is that we would be conformed to the image and likeness of his son, Jesus. 00:12:05.121 --> 00:12:11.861 That the righteousness that belongs to Jesus would become our righteousness through faith in him. 00:12:15.841 --> 00:12:20.321 And that is the ultimate will of God. And by extension, I think, 00:12:20.621 --> 00:12:24.081 using Paul's language, that is the ultimate call of God. That is a calling on 00:12:24.081 --> 00:12:27.441 our character, not necessarily on our occupation. 00:12:28.681 --> 00:12:33.081 Unless, or I should say, in addition to, 00:12:34.281 --> 00:12:41.101 if the grace apportioned to us by Christ calls us into occupational ministry, 00:12:42.101 --> 00:12:44.561 apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, 00:12:46.401 --> 00:12:54.441 whose work it is to build up and equip others others to fulfill their calling, 00:12:55.191 --> 00:12:58.321 to be obedient to the character of Christ in their lives. 00:13:01.321 --> 00:13:02.101 So, 00:13:04.046 --> 00:13:08.366 It's a both and, Paul's not advocating for one over the other, 00:13:08.906 --> 00:13:13.106 nor is he saying the only calling that exists is occupational ministry, 00:13:13.306 --> 00:13:18.966 nor is he saying the only calling that exists is non -occupational ministry. 00:13:19.646 --> 00:13:22.866 It's both, and they work in concert with one another. Right. 00:13:23.586 --> 00:13:33.266 So it makes me think of a lot of conversations around spiritual gifts, right? 00:13:33.426 --> 00:13:41.986 Like this, everyone... I feel like this was really vogue, you know, a decade or more ago. 00:13:42.506 --> 00:13:48.986 I felt like every church was doing like a spiritual gift inventory and stuff. 00:13:49.906 --> 00:13:53.686 It was just like a thing that we're talking a lot about. 00:13:54.726 --> 00:13:58.766 And that's not dissing that. 00:13:58.826 --> 00:14:03.746 You should be discerning about what are the gifts that God has specifically 00:14:03.746 --> 00:14:08.126 given you and how those are meant to be used in the body for Christ. 00:14:08.506 --> 00:14:13.266 That's an important thing. But if that's maybe a more helpful framework for 00:14:13.266 --> 00:14:18.806 some people is to say, like, you know, you've got a... 00:14:18.806 --> 00:14:22.846 If you've ever, like, identified a spiritual gift that you have, 00:14:23.206 --> 00:14:27.786 well, you're called to be a minister of that spiritual gift inside of the body 00:14:27.786 --> 00:14:29.966 in which you belong, you know. 00:14:30.246 --> 00:14:37.246 As you were reading, I was thinking about 1 Peter talks about, uses this language. 00:14:38.286 --> 00:14:43.406 Talks about in chapter 2 here, verse 4, it says, as you come to Him, 00:14:43.486 --> 00:14:45.066 the living stone, talking about Jesus, 00:14:45.866 --> 00:14:50.586 rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to Him, you also are like 00:14:50.586 --> 00:14:56.866 living stones being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual, 00:14:57.766 --> 00:15:00.866 sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 00:15:00.866 --> 00:15:10.926 And that's a pretty big, it's a pretty big category shift in the New Testament 00:15:10.926 --> 00:15:13.526 from the Old Testament, right? 00:15:13.606 --> 00:15:20.106 Shifting from there being, well, you couldn't go into the Holy of Holies, 00:15:20.586 --> 00:15:28.506 you couldn't go into certain parts of the temple and do certain things unless you were a priest. 00:15:30.326 --> 00:15:38.506 And so in the New Testament, to call all believers, everyone who follows Christ, 00:15:38.686 --> 00:15:44.666 as belonging in part of a royal priesthood, that's like a... It's a big shift. 00:15:46.406 --> 00:15:52.346 But as I'm thinking about it, I'm wondering, Cameron, do you think that we've 00:15:52.346 --> 00:15:58.686 maybe... Do you think we've lost that a little bit with the professionalization 00:15:58.686 --> 00:16:00.466 of ministry? Oh, for sure. 00:16:00.826 --> 00:16:03.086 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we have. We... 00:16:05.316 --> 00:16:10.256 We have outsourced our callings to the professionals. 00:16:14.116 --> 00:16:20.476 And part of that is my fault, part of that is your fault, right? 00:16:20.556 --> 00:16:29.756 Because if we don't stand down hard on our calling as equippers of the saints 00:16:29.756 --> 00:16:32.036 to do the work of ministry, 00:16:32.156 --> 00:16:37.376 as Paul says in Ephesians four, Or then we just promulgate that with our own professionalism. 00:16:39.436 --> 00:16:42.776 And we have a vested interest in that. 00:16:44.336 --> 00:16:49.676 We've gone to school to study it. We give our lives to it. That doesn't mean 00:16:49.676 --> 00:16:51.956 that any of that's wrong or that we shouldn't do that. 00:16:52.496 --> 00:17:01.656 It just means that we often, the professionals among us often don't help to 00:17:01.656 --> 00:17:08.696 change the culture of professional occupational ministry being the way in which 00:17:08.696 --> 00:17:11.096 ministry gets done, right? 00:17:14.756 --> 00:17:17.976 And so, yeah, I think we have gotten away from that. 00:17:18.796 --> 00:17:23.616 Every believer is a priest type of... Sainthood of believers is the way I would 00:17:23.616 --> 00:17:25.796 put it. Priesthood of believers, the sainthood of believers, yeah. 00:17:31.196 --> 00:17:36.816 And so that's one of the reasons why I think it's so critical for us to talk 00:17:36.816 --> 00:17:38.896 more about the calling of character. 00:17:40.196 --> 00:17:45.736 Because the calling of character is what ultimately, 00:17:48.196 --> 00:17:55.276 I should put it like this, where there is know, like, where you don't embrace 00:17:55.276 --> 00:17:58.096 the calling of the character of Christ in you, 00:17:59.476 --> 00:18:05.856 I don't believe God is going to call you or promote you to the calling of professionalism. 00:18:07.776 --> 00:18:14.636 Or, if there is a calling to professional ministry, you will rise to the level of your character. 00:18:19.866 --> 00:18:24.406 Like, that will be the ceiling. You will never surpass. You will never surpass 00:18:24.406 --> 00:18:25.486 the level of your character. 00:18:25.646 --> 00:18:28.046 You will always fall to the level of your character. 00:18:28.846 --> 00:18:37.186 I think we could all say that the calling of God on our lives is much higher 00:18:37.186 --> 00:18:41.026 than we probably could even ever imagine. 00:18:44.666 --> 00:18:51.766 And that it's my, I'll say I hold this belief loosely, right, 00:18:52.446 --> 00:18:54.246 and I'll hold on to it tightly. 00:18:54.406 --> 00:19:00.706 It can be talked out of it, I think, but that our character, 00:19:01.666 --> 00:19:03.386 the character of Christ in us 00:19:03.386 --> 00:19:13.486 often determines the extent to which our professional calling increases. 00:19:15.286 --> 00:19:19.306 What do you mean by that? When you say professional calling increases, 00:19:19.546 --> 00:19:25.926 do you mean like the success of our professional calling or like the level to 00:19:25.926 --> 00:19:28.446 which our professional calling should be? 00:19:28.726 --> 00:19:32.066 Like, I'm curious what you, cause I'm like, in one way, like, 00:19:32.126 --> 00:19:35.546 I I think about that, and I'm like, yeah, I know lots of, like there's, 00:19:35.646 --> 00:19:36.986 we've talked about it here, right? 00:19:37.046 --> 00:19:43.246 Like the continual year after year churn of people who have big ministry, 00:19:43.426 --> 00:19:51.346 but seem to have failures of character and stuff like that, who had massive 00:19:51.346 --> 00:19:53.346 influential ministry and impactful, 00:19:53.786 --> 00:19:58.186 but like, you know, and like you said, like they're not disproving your point 00:19:58.186 --> 00:20:03.346 necessarily Because at the end of the day they do fall to the level of their character, 00:20:04.226 --> 00:20:10.506 but they definitely certainly saw a lot of Worldly success worldly success and 00:20:10.506 --> 00:20:11.946 there's even people out there who. 00:20:13.751 --> 00:20:19.151 I don't know. We try not to overly judge people who we don't know, 00:20:19.891 --> 00:20:25.291 but from just afar, we're just like, why does that ministry seem to... 00:20:25.291 --> 00:20:31.251 Or that person's platform seem to be so big, but we see other things where we're 00:20:31.251 --> 00:20:34.511 like, that seems really concerning. You know? 00:20:35.631 --> 00:20:43.731 Yeah, I suppose I'm maybe showing my... an unfair bias a little bit towards bigger ministries. 00:20:43.731 --> 00:20:52.311 Ministry, or bigger ministries, I'm not like, I'm certainly not biased towards them. 00:20:52.811 --> 00:20:59.011 And I don't know if really thinking it out or if I'm pushed on it, 00:20:59.611 --> 00:21:04.831 that I would say that people with big platforms have great character, 00:21:04.991 --> 00:21:07.011 people with small platforms have little character. 00:21:08.011 --> 00:21:10.891 That's not true. I know I don't believe that. 00:21:17.431 --> 00:21:23.491 But I think that there is, I don't know, I feel like I need to hold in tension 00:21:23.491 --> 00:21:34.871 even for my own belief that there is a system of reaping and sowing that happens 00:21:34.871 --> 00:21:35.951 in the calling of ministry, 00:21:36.351 --> 00:21:42.731 that we cannot sow to please our fleshly desires and then reap in the Spirit. 00:21:45.131 --> 00:21:50.051 You don't reap spiritual blessing from sowing in the flesh, you don't. 00:21:53.511 --> 00:21:57.671 There's also, you know, like, I'm thinking about, you know, scriptural axioms 00:21:57.671 --> 00:22:02.231 and spiritual principles of, like. 00:22:04.335 --> 00:22:13.675 You know, when we are given little and we treat it faithfully, 00:22:13.835 --> 00:22:18.395 God is inclined to give us more. RL – Yeah. 00:22:18.655 --> 00:22:26.495 PW – When we are given a little and treat it poorly, God is not inclined to give us more. 00:22:26.615 --> 00:22:30.175 We have not proved ourselves to be faithful with what he has given to us. 00:22:31.535 --> 00:22:36.595 But then you're right, we do see these really large ministries, large platforms, 00:22:37.135 --> 00:22:45.535 men and women who have seemingly built extraordinarily large followings and 00:22:45.535 --> 00:22:49.555 influence and have a voice within the, 00:22:50.095 --> 00:22:52.835 not even just the Christian culture, but in culture in general. 00:22:52.835 --> 00:23:02.135 And we're like, but then years down the line, we realize or come to hear or 00:23:02.135 --> 00:23:07.235 come to find out that behind the scenes, their character was not Christ -like. 00:23:07.715 --> 00:23:15.475 Their lives were not humble or gentle or loving or manipulative and power -hungry 00:23:15.475 --> 00:23:17.775 and greedy and all those things. 00:23:18.295 --> 00:23:23.295 And the ministry all comes kind of crashing down. And I have two thoughts about that. 00:23:23.355 --> 00:23:32.195 One is like, well, is that the... Are they reaping publicly what they sowed privately? 00:23:36.135 --> 00:23:43.735 The other thought I have about that is that, okay, does their failure negate 00:23:43.735 --> 00:23:49.715 any positive things that came from the ministry and the process, 00:23:50.115 --> 00:23:55.215 you know, because, like, I don't know that we could talk... 00:23:55.215 --> 00:24:00.135 I don't know that we... If I'm, like, there's such thing as fruit of the poisonous 00:24:00.135 --> 00:24:03.575 tree in terms of ministries are concerned. 00:24:03.755 --> 00:24:07.155 There is a little bit, because Paul talks about... There's some concern... 00:24:07.155 --> 00:24:11.015 I'm trying to remember the passage, but Paul is in prison, I think, 00:24:11.055 --> 00:24:14.155 and he's writing one of the epistles, and there's some concern that he's been 00:24:14.155 --> 00:24:16.075 made aware of, of, like, people... 00:24:16.075 --> 00:24:21.635 Preaching more boldly about Christ because he's in prison, but they're kind 00:24:21.635 --> 00:24:24.695 of like... Trying to make a name for themselves. Trying to make a name for themselves, 00:24:24.735 --> 00:24:28.055 and they're kind of like dissing him a little bit along the way. 00:24:28.095 --> 00:24:33.895 And Paul says, look, I don't care whether they're preaching the gospel for selfish 00:24:33.895 --> 00:24:38.095 gain or not. Yeah, he says whether false motives are true, Christ is being proclaimed. 00:24:38.475 --> 00:24:45.475 And so, woo -hoo. And so I think that there's definitely a principle shown in 00:24:45.475 --> 00:24:49.535 the New Testament there of, like, you know... 00:24:50.229 --> 00:24:55.469 Christ using, and we see it throughout the Old Testament, God using imperfect 00:24:55.469 --> 00:24:57.309 people to accomplish His means. 00:24:58.689 --> 00:25:03.229 And I think, you know, there's definitely, if you've been in Christendom and 00:25:03.229 --> 00:25:10.269 you've read or read or watched really widely for a long period of time, you've probably read, 00:25:10.529 --> 00:25:15.169 watched, or listened to something by some pastor at this point who is now no 00:25:15.169 --> 00:25:19.349 longer in favor because of significant character failings. 00:25:19.349 --> 00:25:22.989 And the question we, and we've talked about this, I think, of, 00:25:23.049 --> 00:25:27.169 you know, what do you do with the fruit and the encouragement that you bore from that ministry? 00:25:27.289 --> 00:25:33.009 Do we just toss it out or do we say, the Lord used somebody who is imperfect 00:25:33.009 --> 00:25:35.849 and it's a little bit gray, 00:25:36.229 --> 00:25:39.689 but, you know, I'm gonna thank the Lord for the fruit and then toss out what 00:25:39.689 --> 00:25:42.489 is not. Right, yeah. Yeah. 00:25:43.789 --> 00:25:46.749 But I... And I agree with that, I would agree with that, yeah. 00:25:46.749 --> 00:25:50.469 But I think like what you're saying what you were you said something earlier 00:25:50.469 --> 00:25:56.829 you were talking about bearing spiritual fruit and I think sometimes like I you know, 00:25:58.089 --> 00:26:03.949 there's You know With so many things there's a balance right like we do want 00:26:03.949 --> 00:26:06.069 to do things well, right? 00:26:06.069 --> 00:26:10.709 And so we do want to care about metrics into some degree like it wouldn't be 00:26:10.709 --> 00:26:15.229 wise to just just completely disregard, like, you know, you're like, 00:26:15.289 --> 00:26:17.569 I'm never going to count how many people come to my church. 00:26:18.849 --> 00:26:23.429 Well, okay, I suppose, like, if you don't want to, I guess you don't have to, 00:26:23.569 --> 00:26:25.729 but like, you're going to lack some information. 00:26:27.749 --> 00:26:33.329 But otherwise then, you know, so you don't want to disregard that, 00:26:33.389 --> 00:26:36.249 but we also don't to get into a place where we just simply say, 00:26:36.349 --> 00:26:40.709 like, fruit is the visible metric, 00:26:41.449 --> 00:26:45.469 like, the size of your ministry and stuff like that. 00:26:45.549 --> 00:26:49.529 We don't wanna bias ourselves that way either. No, I don't wanna do that. 00:26:49.769 --> 00:26:52.269 If I communicated that before, it's not my heart. 00:26:52.989 --> 00:26:56.409 I just kinda... The podcast is uncut. It is uncut. 00:26:56.549 --> 00:26:59.189 And I know that's not your heart, because I know that we've talked about that 00:26:59.189 --> 00:27:02.569 before here on the podcast, so... I just feel like there is, 00:27:02.689 --> 00:27:06.829 I just feel like we can't ignore, and I don't know how it works out in heaven. 00:27:08.049 --> 00:27:14.429 I just feel like we can't ignore the character of those who are called and the 00:27:14.429 --> 00:27:15.969 fruit that is produced from the character. 00:27:17.849 --> 00:27:21.869 I don't think those two things can be separated, although I'm not really sure 00:27:21.869 --> 00:27:26.049 how it all works out in the laundry at the end of the day. Yeah, 00:27:26.629 --> 00:27:31.049 well did this kind of you know segue into a comment? 00:27:31.189 --> 00:27:34.609 I remember you made towards the end of last episode. 00:27:35.029 --> 00:27:37.689 I think you were talking about people who, 00:27:38.679 --> 00:27:44.199 I can't remember exactly how you phrased it. People who wanted to, like, have a platform, 00:27:45.179 --> 00:27:49.479 and felt like they needed to go into ministry to get that platform, 00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:54.279 or it was some sort of category like that of, like. 00:27:55.719 --> 00:27:58.019 You know... 00:27:58.019 --> 00:27:59.959 Or was it teaching? 00:28:00.179 --> 00:28:02.759 Were we talking about teaching people who just feel like they really want, 00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:05.959 like, a lot of people to listen to them and teach, and they feel like they need 00:28:05.959 --> 00:28:09.579 to become pastors because of that? And you were like, like, please don't. 15. Yeah. 00:28:10.439 --> 00:28:14.059 Yeah. Well, I think, yeah, we were talking about it in terms of like, 00:28:14.639 --> 00:28:17.359 when you talk about ministry calling and you, 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:20.779 a lot of times what people think about when ministry calling is they think about 00:28:20.779 --> 00:28:25.579 occupational ministries and pastors, okay, what do pastors do? Oh, pastors preach. 00:28:25.979 --> 00:28:29.319 Cause that's probably, that's usually one of the most visible things that a pastor does. 00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:37.339 And what I will say is that, yes, that is true, but it is also one of the easiest 00:28:37.339 --> 00:28:41.319 parts of being a pastor and a relatively small part. 00:28:42.499 --> 00:28:46.019 In the grand scheme of things, I preach for an hour a week. 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:52.839 I work for 40 to 60 hours a week, depending on the week. It can be more than that even. 00:28:53.899 --> 00:29:03.679 So there is... What is visible is not always the reality of what is actually present. Yeah. 00:29:06.055 --> 00:29:09.635 You can take that and apply it into like a character and fruit as well. 00:29:11.795 --> 00:29:12.315 But, 00:29:14.315 --> 00:29:20.075 what I would want to tell people around calling, around preaching, 00:29:20.395 --> 00:29:22.135 around platforms, around. 00:29:25.295 --> 00:29:29.355 Is, and maybe this is what I wanted to say, maybe this is what I wanted to say 00:29:29.355 --> 00:29:35.675 earlier and kind of fumbled it, is that if you focus on the calling of your character, 00:29:36.095 --> 00:29:43.755 God will provide the necessary and proportional calling for your ministry. 00:29:45.775 --> 00:29:52.755 Like, if my focus becomes the calling of my platform, just call me to teach, 00:29:52.835 --> 00:29:56.275 call me to preach, I gotta get up there, I gotta get in front of people. Yeah. 00:29:56.595 --> 00:30:10.375 If my focus is my platform or my calling or my position, professional position, then my... 00:30:10.375 --> 00:30:12.475 It will like... It's backwards. 00:30:13.795 --> 00:30:19.355 Focus on the calling to... Focus on the calling to be conformed to the image 00:30:19.355 --> 00:30:30.395 and likeness of Jesus and then the platform or the position will come as it 00:30:30.395 --> 00:30:32.675 becomes necessary unto the Lord. 00:30:34.815 --> 00:30:41.715 And so, I think it's a really important distinction to make and understand, 00:30:42.715 --> 00:30:48.295 not just what you're being called to but what it entails. 00:30:49.435 --> 00:30:52.355 And as we've talked about many times here. 00:30:54.655 --> 00:31:02.575 As we've talked about many times in other mediums and other places and other 00:31:02.575 --> 00:31:05.015 times and all that, is that. 00:31:11.627 --> 00:31:18.987 Callings for the Lord are callings to die to yourself. 00:31:20.307 --> 00:31:24.187 Callings to die to yourself. They're not, when we talk about like, 00:31:24.547 --> 00:31:29.407 oh, some be called to be apostles, some called to be teachers and preachers, 00:31:29.667 --> 00:31:32.407 some called to be prophets and evangelists, like, 00:31:33.227 --> 00:31:39.207 recognize that at least according to scripture, scriptural evidence, 00:31:40.207 --> 00:31:49.067 or the scriptural account, all of those significant callings ended up in someone's 00:31:49.067 --> 00:31:53.447 surrender to their own life, sometimes their actual physical life. 00:31:55.287 --> 00:31:57.827 And we've talked about this before in terms of being a prophet. 00:31:59.187 --> 00:32:05.027 The office of prophet is that people will, all, oh, I'm a, you know, 00:32:05.367 --> 00:32:09.167 like, call me prophet so -and -so, call me prophet so -and -so. 00:32:09.467 --> 00:32:13.527 I speak as one of, who is speaking the words of the Lord. 00:32:13.967 --> 00:32:16.547 One, you better be damn sure. 00:32:17.927 --> 00:32:23.247 Yeah, literally. Yes, that you are, that the Lord is telling you to speak, 00:32:23.387 --> 00:32:29.207 because when you declare, thus saith the Lord, or this is what the Lord is saying. 00:32:31.907 --> 00:32:35.047 You put yourself in a very, very 00:32:35.047 --> 00:32:40.687 precarious position, you better not be wrong, you better not be wrong. 00:32:41.667 --> 00:32:47.567 And number two is that, I don't know, all of the prophets that we see in scripture 00:32:47.567 --> 00:32:50.187 died because they were prophets. 00:32:53.164 --> 00:32:59.644 They were, or at the very least, they were like pushed to the absolute outskirts 00:32:59.644 --> 00:33:01.904 of society. They were not given the big platforms. 00:33:02.164 --> 00:33:04.644 They were not given the big stages. They were not given the microphones. 00:33:04.844 --> 00:33:08.224 They were not given the book deals. They were not given the titles. 00:33:09.124 --> 00:33:10.204 They were crazy. 00:33:11.824 --> 00:33:17.964 They were hated. Even by the religious people, they were hated. 00:33:17.964 --> 00:33:27.904 Did, and their message was so countercultural to the world that they were often killed because of it. 00:33:28.444 --> 00:33:34.144 The Old Testament and minor prophets, I think it's probably Jeremiah or, 00:33:34.644 --> 00:33:41.264 I don't know, it's probably multiple prophets, but they talk about the prophets 00:33:41.264 --> 00:33:48.204 that people collect for themselves who say what they wanna hear. 00:33:48.504 --> 00:33:51.524 Their itching ears. Their itching ears. They gather around them teachers who 00:33:51.524 --> 00:33:53.464 give them what their itching ears wanna hear. Right. 00:33:54.464 --> 00:33:57.824 Right. That happened, that happened in the Old Testament, happens in the New 00:33:57.824 --> 00:33:58.944 Testament, happens now. 00:34:00.584 --> 00:34:05.284 And so, you know, not many of you should desire to be teachers because of like 00:34:05.284 --> 00:34:10.004 the increased level of judgment, expectation, and all of that. 00:34:10.224 --> 00:34:11.504 Yeah, the Epistle of James. 00:34:12.284 --> 00:34:16.204 Right, so not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers and sisters, 00:34:16.304 --> 00:34:18.884 because we know that those who teach will be judged more strictly. 00:34:20.304 --> 00:34:26.664 So would you like to be held to a higher standard of character in front of the 00:34:26.664 --> 00:34:28.824 Lord than everyone else? 00:34:31.324 --> 00:34:34.464 It is a demand for higher character, is it not? Right. 00:34:34.704 --> 00:34:39.324 It has to be. I don't know how else you would parse that out than to say, 00:34:39.504 --> 00:34:42.044 and oh, I wanna be a pastor. are you sure? 00:34:43.464 --> 00:34:45.824 I want to teach. Are you sure? 00:34:46.953 --> 00:34:53.933 Well, and there's other, like, let's segue it, like, I think that's a really 00:34:53.933 --> 00:35:00.273 important point is that, like, I think too often there are people who are really eager. 00:35:00.993 --> 00:35:05.753 This is the thing that I, not, there should be some desire to be in ministry, 00:35:05.893 --> 00:35:10.893 but if that desire is outpaced by, 00:35:11.513 --> 00:35:20.693 let me say it this way, is outpaced significantly by patience and maturity and 00:35:20.693 --> 00:35:23.673 a willing to submit to authority, 00:35:24.153 --> 00:35:28.793 then that's just like, that's the leader I'm like scared of. 00:35:29.113 --> 00:35:33.833 Like, when we talked, you mentioned earlier, does gifting equal calling? 00:35:34.953 --> 00:35:44.053 No. No. Like, it doesn't... I don't care how good of a speaker you are or even 00:35:44.053 --> 00:35:49.873 how good of an exegete you are if you don't love Christ and you don't love Christ's... 00:35:50.273 --> 00:35:56.233 Yeah, if you don't love Christ's bride. And if you're just going to just be 00:35:56.233 --> 00:36:02.753 a hammer in the pulpit, I don't care how many people love to listen to you talk. 00:36:04.093 --> 00:36:10.093 If it doesn't seem that Christ is being manifest in you, you should not be doing that yet. 00:36:10.373 --> 00:36:17.453 And if you're not willing to submit, learn, and grow, and wait, 00:36:18.033 --> 00:36:22.793 then you probably just shouldn't be attempting to do this at all. Yeah. 00:36:23.753 --> 00:36:28.053 It's tantamount to the old phrase that it's the difference between loving the 00:36:28.053 --> 00:36:33.713 gift and loving the giver. Like, the gift is the calling, the giver is the focus. 00:36:37.413 --> 00:36:38.013 But... 00:36:38.870 --> 00:36:44.650 And like you said, I'm not trying to call any... I'm not trying to talk anyone out. No. 00:36:45.010 --> 00:36:49.150 We need more pastors. We do. There's... the seminaries are getting small. 00:36:50.490 --> 00:36:55.510 We need more people to like... there are less and there are more pastors retiring 00:36:55.510 --> 00:36:59.790 and more pastors quitting every year than there are pastors starting. 00:37:00.470 --> 00:37:06.970 Well, and most pastors, well, not say most, a lot of pastors are starting either 00:37:06.970 --> 00:37:10.250 bivocationally, later in life, or even in retirement. 00:37:11.470 --> 00:37:18.170 They're... Because there's a lack of young people who are willing to pursue this. Right. 00:37:18.910 --> 00:37:22.170 I gotta kinda catch myself, because I'm like, I'm gonna be getting into the 00:37:22.170 --> 00:37:24.850 season of life where I'm not young anymore. 00:37:25.170 --> 00:37:26.910 I think I still am. 00:37:27.270 --> 00:37:30.950 Relatively. Relatively. It's a bell curve. Yeah, relatively speaking to the 00:37:30.950 --> 00:37:35.150 majority of pastors in the United States, I'm on the younger side, 00:37:35.490 --> 00:37:36.970 and I've been doing it for 20 years. 00:37:37.650 --> 00:37:44.790 So imagine how old that makes the average pastor. Yeah. 00:37:47.270 --> 00:37:47.870 So... 00:37:50.897 --> 00:37:56.757 Yeah, I think the question or the statement about like, does gifting equal calling 00:37:56.757 --> 00:38:01.317 or does calling equal gifting or however you wanna talk about it is an important 00:38:01.317 --> 00:38:03.777 one because you can have gifts... 00:38:04.317 --> 00:38:10.057 And lack calling. And lack calling. You can have gifts and have calling, 00:38:10.617 --> 00:38:15.517 but lack character, and that's kind of the dynamic, I guess, 00:38:15.577 --> 00:38:19.097 that we were already talking about, is that you have the gifting. 00:38:20.317 --> 00:38:24.237 You have been called, the Lord wants you to move, 00:38:25.077 --> 00:38:31.417 but that your character has not developed, you have not developed the character 00:38:31.417 --> 00:38:38.057 of Christ in you, the hope of glory, and so now you're operating only on your calling, 00:38:38.577 --> 00:38:47.797 you're operating only on your gifting, and your character is not there, and so it's like a... 00:38:48.997 --> 00:38:52.917 You're gonna have to... It's a two -legged table. Yeah. And you're gonna... 00:38:52.917 --> 00:39:01.317 Like, you can... If you can submit, if you can wait and be patient in the forming 00:39:01.317 --> 00:39:04.297 of the Lord, God can use you. 00:39:04.797 --> 00:39:11.697 I think, unfortunately, people who fit into that category of calling and gift 00:39:11.697 --> 00:39:17.717 usually, Not always but a lot of times are very impatient and don't always aren't 00:39:17.717 --> 00:39:19.297 always willing to wait for character, 00:39:20.017 --> 00:39:21.997 but like the person who has. 00:39:23.717 --> 00:39:32.857 Character and calling can work on gifts in My opinion I would rather take somebody 00:39:32.857 --> 00:39:37.317 who has character and calling than somebody who has, 00:39:38.317 --> 00:39:39.577 calling and gifts. 00:39:45.072 --> 00:39:50.832 Because not every pastor is perfectly... What would you say is the foundation to those three? 00:39:52.592 --> 00:39:53.212 What do you mean? 00:39:55.692 --> 00:39:59.492 I think this is an interesting conversation. I think this is a cool conversation, actually. 00:39:59.892 --> 00:40:04.152 Let's say there's three things. Yeah. Let's say that we have a calling from the Lord. Yep. 00:40:04.992 --> 00:40:10.212 We have gifts, natural gifts. Yep. And then there's character. Yeah. 00:40:10.772 --> 00:40:13.932 And you can have them at any proportion, any percentage. 00:40:14.292 --> 00:40:18.072 Yep. Right, and those are static. It's not like you're gonna only have that 00:40:18.072 --> 00:40:20.012 percentage forever, right? They can be grown. 00:40:20.332 --> 00:40:22.872 Yep. They can be diminished Yes, what's the one? 00:40:23.912 --> 00:40:27.072 What's the one that you have to have in order to move forward? 00:40:28.552 --> 00:40:34.852 Hmm if you could only have one no, what's the one that starts the train moving forward? 00:40:36.992 --> 00:40:42.292 Hmm I'm debating between calling and character, okay. 00:40:47.012 --> 00:40:50.192 Because like... Here's a question that I would ask for clarification. 00:40:50.412 --> 00:40:54.512 Yeah. Is which one could be developed, calling or character? 00:40:56.372 --> 00:40:59.112 Character. Character can be developed, calling can't, right? 00:40:59.112 --> 00:41:00.492 You're either called or you're not. Yeah. 00:41:00.932 --> 00:41:05.432 In terms of occupational. Yes. Right, so you can have gifts. 00:41:07.776 --> 00:41:11.616 Or not have gifts. You don't have any gifts, but you're called, you have character. 00:41:11.896 --> 00:41:18.176 Gifts can be developed. If you have gifting and you're called, 00:41:18.316 --> 00:41:22.416 but your character is low, Jesus can transform you, 00:41:24.576 --> 00:41:29.856 and you can be discipled into having character. If you have great character 00:41:29.856 --> 00:41:38.876 and you are gifted, but you are not called, then you shall not pass. 00:41:39.096 --> 00:41:42.656 You should do something else. You should do something else, right? So. 00:41:45.196 --> 00:41:49.636 Even something adjacent, maybe something not in the church. Yeah, 00:41:49.836 --> 00:41:53.056 work for a parachurch, work for... 00:41:54.376 --> 00:41:58.896 Be a teacher in a different capacity other than a local church ministry. 00:41:59.496 --> 00:42:04.076 Ghosts go sort two by fours at Home Depot. Yeah, that's my ultimate My ultimate 00:42:04.076 --> 00:42:05.816 example of something else to do. 00:42:08.636 --> 00:42:14.996 But go yeah go go sort two by fours and and like Use your character and your 00:42:14.996 --> 00:42:20.056 gifting to be like the best two by four sword Or you could possibly could be 00:42:20.056 --> 00:42:23.016 does glory of God. Yeah, it's not a lesser calling. 00:42:23.216 --> 00:42:32.016 No, it's not There's nothing in And I can't say that, I was gonna say that there's 00:42:32.016 --> 00:42:35.796 nothing in scripture that elevates the calling of the professional. 00:42:36.576 --> 00:42:41.296 Because there actually is, that those who teach the word are worthy of double honor. 00:42:43.926 --> 00:42:49.176 That there is increased standards for those who are elders in the church. 00:42:50.896 --> 00:42:54.776 It's not like, it's not worth in the sight of God. 00:42:56.316 --> 00:43:01.616 It's not like, oh, a pastor is worth more in the sight of God than someone who is not. 00:43:03.491 --> 00:43:09.031 Um, it is just like a, how would you, do you get what I'm saying? 00:43:09.191 --> 00:43:11.671 I know exactly what you're saying. Cause like, it's... How would you describe 00:43:11.671 --> 00:43:12.711 it? The difference there? 00:43:14.071 --> 00:43:18.491 We're all to be pursuing Christ. And at the end of the day, laying our crowns down. 00:43:20.171 --> 00:43:27.351 Like if, like, you know, the Bible certainly does talk about honoring like those 00:43:27.351 --> 00:43:31.291 in vocational ministry and some of the things around that, 00:43:31.871 --> 00:43:36.231 which is always awkward to talk about as a pastor, because you feel like... 00:43:36.231 --> 00:43:40.491 And the reason it's awkward is because the call of Christ is to die to self, 00:43:40.591 --> 00:43:43.971 and as pastors, we ought to be dying to ourselves. 00:43:44.111 --> 00:43:49.571 And so if we're doing that well, we're not really going... And Paul demonstrates it a lot. 00:43:49.711 --> 00:43:53.451 Paul doesn't often argue for his own dignity. No. 00:43:53.771 --> 00:44:02.271 He argues for his calling at times in order to defend his proclamation of the gospel, 00:44:02.651 --> 00:44:08.211 but he doesn't often, like the two examples, when Paul talks about arguing his 00:44:08.211 --> 00:44:13.791 calling and how he's deserving of the unique apostleship under which he sits, 00:44:13.971 --> 00:44:16.751 it's so that he defends his proclamation of the gospel. 00:44:16.871 --> 00:44:20.231 In the other place where people are talking him down and and he's in prison, 00:44:20.291 --> 00:44:22.751 he's like, oh, that's fine, they can talk about me all they want, 00:44:22.791 --> 00:44:26.571 as long as you talk about Jesus, right? That's a very different thing. 00:44:27.151 --> 00:44:33.051 And so, we're all part of the body of Christ. 00:44:33.291 --> 00:44:37.131 And I had a professor once tell me, he's like, you as a pastor need to assume 00:44:37.131 --> 00:44:41.731 that you're not the best preacher in the congregation, and that you're not the best exegete. 00:44:41.811 --> 00:44:44.691 You're just the one that happens to be on the stage. 00:44:46.691 --> 00:44:50.971 And you need to carry that humility with you. we're all in the body of Christ. 00:44:51.011 --> 00:44:53.651 Whether or not it's actually true or not. Whether it's not actually true or not. 00:44:53.711 --> 00:44:57.211 Assume that about you. Right. So that you walk in humility of that gifting. 00:44:57.631 --> 00:45:02.831 Right. Walk in humility. And if you're not, you don't have the character and you should sit down. 00:45:03.151 --> 00:45:11.451 Right. And so, so this, that calling to die to self makes it really, you know, 00:45:11.631 --> 00:45:18.151 makes it kind of counterintuitive to talk about some of the honor that is given, but it's never a, 00:45:19.091 --> 00:45:23.771 oh, what's that phrase, first among equals, right? 00:45:24.091 --> 00:45:26.111 Somebody has to go lead. 00:45:26.971 --> 00:45:31.131 We can't all go through the door at the same time. Someone has to go first. 00:45:32.271 --> 00:45:38.271 And that's how leadership looks in the church, is we're all equals here at the 00:45:38.271 --> 00:45:41.751 foot of the cross, but some of us do have to lead, 00:45:42.291 --> 00:45:47.691 but I'm gonna lead in such a way that I serve and that I never forget that we 00:45:47.691 --> 00:45:50.511 are on equal footing and that I am to wash your feet. 00:45:51.511 --> 00:45:54.611 Does that kinda get at it, I guess? Yeah, I think so, yeah. 00:45:54.711 --> 00:45:57.711 It's a really hard dynamic to kinda describe. Yeah, I'm going back to, 00:45:57.831 --> 00:46:02.611 in Philippians, when Paul said, you know, like, I am, you know, the essentially... 00:46:04.266 --> 00:46:09.526 In terms of being a Jew, I am faultless. I was, you know, educated under Gamaliel, 00:46:09.746 --> 00:46:13.986 which is like the most, it's like the Harvard of the Jewish scholars at that point, right? 00:46:14.246 --> 00:46:20.446 And then he goes, but whatever was for my profit, I now consider a loss compared 00:46:20.446 --> 00:46:24.986 to the surpassing greatness of knowing Jesus Christ as my Lord and surrendering 00:46:24.986 --> 00:46:27.806 all things that I might be found in him. 00:46:28.966 --> 00:46:36.806 So for him, it mattered who he was, but in comparison to Christ, 00:46:37.006 --> 00:46:39.326 it didn't at the same time. Yeah, right. 00:46:40.066 --> 00:46:43.926 But everyone, just to kind of wrap us up here, 00:46:45.026 --> 00:46:52.786 I know we ended up kind of talking a lot about calling into professional vocational ministry, 00:46:53.086 --> 00:47:00.166 but But like the call of Christ is the same for everyone, right? 00:47:00.806 --> 00:47:07.166 To die to self and figure out just exactly what it is that Christ is calling 00:47:07.166 --> 00:47:11.066 you to do in the context in which you find yourself. 00:47:11.746 --> 00:47:14.766 Yeah. Like... In your... Or in your character. 00:47:15.246 --> 00:47:21.126 Yeah. Yeah. Right. What is Jesus trying to root out in me and create me to be? 00:47:21.286 --> 00:47:27.106 Right. We're Christians, right? Christians, little Christs, right? 00:47:27.306 --> 00:47:34.946 We're all to be emulators of Christ in some... How can I be like Christ in wherever 00:47:34.946 --> 00:47:36.706 it is I find myself? Work. 00:47:37.286 --> 00:47:42.266 Home, as a parent, as a wife, as a husband, at the grocery store, 00:47:43.026 --> 00:47:49.466 in my church, all of those places, it deserves us asking, how can I be like Christ here? 00:47:53.226 --> 00:47:58.746 All right, well, if you have any questions for us, anything that you would like 00:47:58.746 --> 00:48:04.626 us to look at in our talk about in upcoming episodes, you can leave them in 00:48:04.626 --> 00:48:06.166 the comments here if you're watching on YouTube, 00:48:06.946 --> 00:48:16.766 or you can text us, we have a text line specifically for the podcast, 716 -201 -0507. 00:48:16.906 --> 00:48:20.106 We would love to tackle some of your questions. 00:48:20.846 --> 00:48:24.866 Thank you for listening or watching. Please make sure you like, 00:48:25.106 --> 00:48:27.066 share, subscribe, rate. 00:48:28.286 --> 00:48:31.586 Wherever it is that you're listening, it helps us out and helps to get the message 00:48:31.586 --> 00:48:35.586 out there more. So we'll see y 'all next time. Take it easy. 00:48:35.600 --> 00:48:41.695 Music.