1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,440 Bret (2): were you sorta seeing where this all could take us in terms of 2 00:00:03,530 --> 00:00:05,040 agents helping us in infrastructure 3 00:00:05,090 --> 00:00:09,540 Doron: we wanted to reduce the cognitive load on engineers not 4 00:00:09,550 --> 00:00:13,629 having to stitch together Kubernetes, Istio, Grafana, Prometheus, Vault, 5 00:00:13,630 --> 00:00:15,990 and all the CNCF, solutions out there. 6 00:00:16,090 --> 00:00:23,466 And we created an API that gives you unified access to any cloud, any service, 7 00:00:23,566 --> 00:00:28,614 and we find that AI, if you just tell it, "Create me the infrastructure," it's gonna 8 00:00:28,624 --> 00:00:34,104 duplicate a lot of resources: and it's gonna be expensive, non-deterministic, and 9 00:00:34,104 --> 00:00:36,544 it's gonna be non-secure, non-compliant. 10 00:00:36,644 --> 00:00:40,394 And where is the logging, the metrics, the tracing, the secrets management, 11 00:00:40,394 --> 00:00:42,484 the service discovery, the TLS, the DNS? 12 00:00:42,484 --> 00:00:44,584 And the list goes on and on. 13 00:00:44,684 --> 00:00:50,097 So what AI needs, just like an engineer needs, is a reduced cognitive load. 14 00:00:50,117 --> 00:00:53,437 Give it a deterministic API that says, "Hey, take my 15 00:00:53,437 --> 00:00:55,217 desired state and make it so. 16 00:00:55,317 --> 00:01:00,236 And by the way, make it so on any cloud." It makes AI a lot more effective. 17 00:01:00,336 --> 00:01:05,026 we find AI in a perfect, intersection because we can now make it do 18 00:01:05,076 --> 00:01:09,376 tricks that is otherwise very, very expensive or even u- unattainable 19 00:01:16,105 --> 00:01:18,475 Bret (2): Welcome to another episode of DevOps & Docker Talk. 20 00:01:18,515 --> 00:01:24,255 I'm your host, Bret, and in this one, we go deep into the universal control 21 00:01:24,255 --> 00:01:29,595 plane for the cloud and the search for the singular management system, which 22 00:01:29,695 --> 00:01:34,435 we have been doing my entire 30-year career, been trying to find that perfect 23 00:01:34,435 --> 00:01:40,615 sweet spot of a tool that can manage all of my infrastructure from one API. 24 00:01:40,895 --> 00:01:45,385 And what better person to have on to talk about this than the CEO and 25 00:01:45,385 --> 00:01:50,605 co-founder of Control Plane, the company building this unified API layer for 26 00:01:50,605 --> 00:01:52,165 controlling all your infrastructure. 27 00:01:52,465 --> 00:01:57,735 I'm having Doron Grinstein on the show, and we go deep into what they're building, 28 00:01:57,745 --> 00:02:02,675 And he has a very similar story to me, just trying to use the infrastructure 29 00:02:02,775 --> 00:02:07,275 that we had at the time and the tooling we had at the time, and I have managed 30 00:02:07,285 --> 00:02:11,355 infrastructure for so long that I have forgotten about all the tools that we've 31 00:02:11,365 --> 00:02:15,485 tried to use over the years to unify everything, and we never quite get there. 32 00:02:15,485 --> 00:02:19,965 We get 60%, maybe if you're really lucky, 80%, but then there's always 33 00:02:19,995 --> 00:02:22,075 that other thing that doesn't quite fit. 34 00:02:22,175 --> 00:02:25,195 And it's exciting to see a company that's brave enough to take this 35 00:02:25,195 --> 00:02:26,725 on, because it's no small task. 36 00:02:26,735 --> 00:02:31,245 It's no small achievement to be able to say you have a universal API control 37 00:02:31,245 --> 00:02:36,315 plane that you can access from the browser or from Terraform or from Pulumi 38 00:02:36,325 --> 00:02:43,035 or from your agent harness, and it feels like that's what they're achieving. 39 00:02:43,065 --> 00:02:45,005 And we walked through a bunch of demos. 40 00:02:45,005 --> 00:02:47,615 In fact, if you're interested in the demos, go check out the link in the 41 00:02:47,665 --> 00:02:51,205 show notes to go to the live stream, 'cause we demoed for about an hour 42 00:02:51,215 --> 00:02:54,475 after the conversation, and, we didn't put those into this podcast. 43 00:02:54,495 --> 00:02:56,865 So if you wanna check out all those demos, go check the link. 44 00:02:57,215 --> 00:03:00,555 But we talk about everything from how they onboard customers, what are 45 00:03:00,555 --> 00:03:03,955 their customers looking like in terms of their infrastructure, and how are 46 00:03:03,955 --> 00:03:05,545 they managing it once they get there. 47 00:03:05,555 --> 00:03:07,155 Surprise, not a lot's changed. 48 00:03:07,165 --> 00:03:10,035 They still use Terraform or OpenTofu. 49 00:03:10,035 --> 00:03:13,865 All the things that they were using before are compatible with their APIs. 50 00:03:13,875 --> 00:03:18,895 But they also have MCP and CLI tools to manage this, and once you get into 51 00:03:18,895 --> 00:03:22,355 their interface, you realize that part of what they can do, because they're 52 00:03:22,355 --> 00:03:26,785 agnostic and they want to operationalize all of this across multi clouds, is 53 00:03:26,825 --> 00:03:30,265 they're setting up the Kubernetes distributions across the clouds for you. 54 00:03:30,505 --> 00:03:35,585 They're making the decisions around how the encrypted tunnels are gonna happen 55 00:03:35,595 --> 00:03:39,085 between the different providers, it feels kind of like what Docker felt at 56 00:03:39,145 --> 00:03:42,765 first, where they had this old saying at Docker of, "Batteries included, but 57 00:03:42,765 --> 00:03:46,455 swappable" and that is something that I feel like I could call control plane. 58 00:03:46,455 --> 00:03:49,135 It feels like it's very easy out of the box, but they hide a little 59 00:03:49,135 --> 00:03:52,155 bit of that complexity with their opinionated defaults, which I like 60 00:03:52,155 --> 00:03:55,145 opinionated defaults, especially when I agree with those opinions. 61 00:03:55,245 --> 00:03:59,665 And we dive into some of their extra features that they're building on top 62 00:03:59,675 --> 00:04:04,175 of this universal control plane, like a, a sandboxing approach that is so 63 00:04:04,175 --> 00:04:07,755 popular right now that we have agent harnesses needing sandboxes, and we're 64 00:04:07,755 --> 00:04:12,665 now talking about the corporate vibe coders, which I call app creators, the 65 00:04:12,665 --> 00:04:17,461 people that are outside of IT that maybe need a safe space to experiment with 66 00:04:17,461 --> 00:04:22,541 ideas that they can then hand over to either robots or humans to maybe develop 67 00:04:22,701 --> 00:04:24,151 further and get onto their production. 68 00:04:24,431 --> 00:04:28,901 Those people are coming, and us platform engineers and DevOps engineers, we're 69 00:04:29,051 --> 00:04:32,901 having to deal with that problem, and it feels like we need some solutions that 70 00:04:32,901 --> 00:04:37,671 help automate that middle layer out of the way with a higher level of abstraction, 71 00:04:37,771 --> 00:04:38,891 and it looks like that's what they built. 72 00:04:38,991 --> 00:04:42,261 So let's get into my conversation with Doron about Control Plane. 73 00:04:42,361 --> 00:04:43,251 welcome to the show. 74 00:04:43,261 --> 00:04:44,011 I'm glad to have you here. 75 00:04:44,111 --> 00:04:45,411 Doron: g-great to be here. 76 00:04:45,501 --> 00:04:46,141 looking forward to it 77 00:04:46,521 --> 00:04:50,721 Bret (2): Give us a little bit of your background, Tell me the origin story, 78 00:04:50,756 --> 00:04:53,606 Doron: I ran a company, sold a company, was chief architect at 79 00:04:53,606 --> 00:04:57,536 Dell, chief architect at, SAP, and then ended up as, chief architect, 80 00:04:57,566 --> 00:04:59,936 for VMware for cloud services. 81 00:05:00,036 --> 00:05:04,899 And, at VMware, I missed my interactions back at SAP with a guy 82 00:05:04,899 --> 00:05:10,569 named Dan Wilson, who was the best DevOps/platform engineer I ever met. 83 00:05:10,669 --> 00:05:15,019 And what I wanted at VMware was, Dan Wilson as a service. 84 00:05:15,119 --> 00:05:20,939 And, I really saw hundreds of, outside customers and internal teams 85 00:05:20,979 --> 00:05:25,489 struggle with Kubernetes, Istio, Grafana, Prometheus, and having to 86 00:05:25,489 --> 00:05:27,859 reinvent the wheel again and again. 87 00:05:27,939 --> 00:05:32,339 And so had the idea for Control Plane, left VMware, started 88 00:05:32,349 --> 00:05:34,399 this company, called Dan Wilson. 89 00:05:34,469 --> 00:05:39,749 He was back at SAP and I said, "I want you to join me as my CTO and really deliver to 90 00:05:39,759 --> 00:05:44,969 the world, what you do as a service." And I thought it's gonna be a hard battle, but 91 00:05:44,979 --> 00:05:48,979 he jumped ship and he said, "Yeah, I'll join you." And, that was the origin story. 92 00:05:49,079 --> 00:05:53,559 And then we brought on a few other brilliant, engineers that have decades 93 00:05:53,569 --> 00:05:59,079 of, practice on, on, cloud native architectures, and, we built this company 94 00:05:59,179 --> 00:06:00,639 Bret (2): this is pre-AI, right? 95 00:06:00,739 --> 00:06:03,979 So, th- we're gonna get into a whole bunch of details later on, 96 00:06:03,999 --> 00:06:09,399 agent-driven infrastructure, like MCP and CLI tooling, agent h- harness 97 00:06:09,399 --> 00:06:12,239 first, whatever we wanna call this thing, th- this new future we're in. 98 00:06:12,339 --> 00:06:15,249 but what did, what was it like to to be an infrastructure 99 00:06:15,249 --> 00:06:17,299 company and to see AI coming? 100 00:06:17,399 --> 00:06:20,859 Were, were you sorta like seeing where this all could take us in 101 00:06:20,859 --> 00:06:23,879 terms of agents helping us in infrastructure and stuff like that? 102 00:06:23,979 --> 00:06:24,829 Doron: 100%. 103 00:06:24,859 --> 00:06:27,129 we, I think, got more lucky. 104 00:06:27,289 --> 00:06:32,509 We have more luck than brain, because it found us at a very interesting time. 105 00:06:32,509 --> 00:06:38,179 We, we wanted to reduce the cognitive load on engineers not having to stitch 106 00:06:38,179 --> 00:06:42,299 together Kubernetes, Istio, Grafana, Prometheus, Vault, and the things… 107 00:06:42,429 --> 00:06:44,509 all the CNCF, solutions out there. 108 00:06:44,609 --> 00:06:51,986 And we created an API that gives you unified access to any cloud, any service, 109 00:06:52,086 --> 00:06:56,893 and we find that AI, if you just tell it, "Create me the infrastructure," it's 110 00:06:56,903 --> 00:07:02,225 gonna duplicate a lot of resources: a NAT gateway, a load balancer, brain, a 111 00:07:02,225 --> 00:07:07,075 Kubernetes set of nodes, and it's gonna be expensive, non-deterministic, and 112 00:07:07,075 --> 00:07:09,515 it's gonna be non-secure, non-compliant. 113 00:07:09,615 --> 00:07:13,365 And where is the logging, the metrics, the tracing, the secrets management, 114 00:07:13,365 --> 00:07:15,455 the service discovery, the TLS, the DNS? 115 00:07:15,455 --> 00:07:17,555 And the list goes on and on. 116 00:07:17,655 --> 00:07:23,067 So what AI needs, just like an engineer needs, is a reduced cognitive load. 117 00:07:23,087 --> 00:07:27,077 In the era of AI is less tokens, less context window. 118 00:07:27,177 --> 00:07:30,497 Give it a deterministic API that says, "Hey, take my 119 00:07:30,497 --> 00:07:32,277 desired state and make it so. 120 00:07:32,377 --> 00:07:36,917 And by the way, make it so on any cloud." It is a boon for AI. 121 00:07:37,652 --> 00:07:40,041 It makes AI a lot more effective. 122 00:07:40,141 --> 00:07:44,831 we find AI in a perfect, intersection because we can now make it do 123 00:07:44,881 --> 00:07:49,181 tricks that is otherwise very, very expensive or even u- unattainable 124 00:07:49,281 --> 00:07:53,371 Bret (2): Yeah, I always struggled with, automation, pre-AI, in terms 125 00:07:53,371 --> 00:07:56,345 of, there's a point at which you're trying to automate things and 126 00:07:56,345 --> 00:07:59,745 automate triggers and intelligence with a deterministic language. 127 00:07:59,845 --> 00:08:03,985 And I always would get to a point where I want this to be more automated, but 128 00:08:03,985 --> 00:08:08,255 the level of effort to automate that small thing was way more than it was 129 00:08:08,255 --> 00:08:10,005 worth in terms of the automation. 130 00:08:10,005 --> 00:08:13,375 And, and in DevOps forever, we've been talking about the toil, and I think 131 00:08:13,375 --> 00:08:16,365 that, I think the first time I heard that was from Google's SRE paper, was 132 00:08:16,365 --> 00:08:20,325 talking about, the toil of ops, and I always felt like there was a better 133 00:08:20,325 --> 00:08:23,765 way, a more complete way to automate things, but every time I would try to 134 00:08:23,765 --> 00:08:27,665 take it to the next level, it, it was like the management had no tolerance 135 00:08:27,675 --> 00:08:30,405 for me spending all of my time trying to automate these little things. 136 00:08:30,405 --> 00:08:32,945 I'm like, "Yeah, but they're tiny paper cuts and they add up over time," 137 00:08:32,945 --> 00:08:35,695 and I was trying to, defend the, the case for more automation, but 138 00:08:35,695 --> 00:08:37,045 we would just never quite get there. 139 00:08:37,045 --> 00:08:38,775 And now I feel like the world is our oyster. 140 00:08:38,775 --> 00:08:42,935 I feel like we're, we're at a place where you're only limited by your imagination 141 00:08:42,965 --> 00:08:46,415 and your ability to, manage the harness and manage that agent inside it. 142 00:08:46,445 --> 00:08:48,515 Doron: we, we called it the cloud is your oyster. 143 00:08:48,615 --> 00:08:55,255 We truly allow you to have a singular API and leverage BigQuery on Google 144 00:08:55,335 --> 00:09:01,405 and Cosmos DB on Azure and S3 on Amazon and-- or any one of the services. 145 00:09:01,505 --> 00:09:06,385 You can now write code and run it on your Raspberry Pi or Dell machine or your EC2 146 00:09:06,405 --> 00:09:09,775 instances or EKS, AKS, GKE, whatever. 147 00:09:09,875 --> 00:09:14,759 And you can, not be confined by any factor. 148 00:09:14,819 --> 00:09:20,109 So think of all the clouds as They have merged, and now you can run the compute in 149 00:09:20,109 --> 00:09:26,319 a basement or on a cloud or on a secondary or neo cloud, but leverage any service of 150 00:09:26,319 --> 00:09:28,773 any cloud, and, and let AI do the work. 151 00:09:28,773 --> 00:09:31,513 Like, I need a Postgres, I need a Redis, I need a Kafka. 152 00:09:31,613 --> 00:09:36,123 You can conversationally get those things up and running deterministically 153 00:09:36,223 --> 00:09:39,193 Bret (2): All right, so if we back up a second, If someone hasn't heard of Control 154 00:09:39,193 --> 00:09:43,873 Plane, how is this different than a cloud or different than a cloud management 155 00:09:43,873 --> 00:09:48,213 tool that we might all be using, like Terraform or, any of the dozen, different 156 00:09:48,223 --> 00:09:52,623 opportunities I have to manage my cloud with a CLI or some sort of service? 157 00:09:52,623 --> 00:09:52,973 Doron: Sure. 158 00:09:53,073 --> 00:09:56,653 So Terraform allows you to create resources. 159 00:09:56,663 --> 00:10:00,203 We provide the Terraform provider for control plane. 160 00:10:00,453 --> 00:10:04,923 We provide Pulumi, we provide other interfaces Control Plane is a virtual 161 00:10:04,933 --> 00:10:09,253 cloud, allowing you to not have a cloud and be cloudless and still 162 00:10:09,253 --> 00:10:14,243 run on Amazon, Google, Azure, Oracle without a cloud account and pay by 163 00:10:14,253 --> 00:10:16,519 the millicore and megabyte of compute. 164 00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:20,039 So if you deploy the Bret app, you can run essentially serverless 165 00:10:20,139 --> 00:10:23,899 on any cloud or multiple clouds without having a cloud account. 166 00:10:23,909 --> 00:10:26,199 You can bring your own cloud account. 167 00:10:26,299 --> 00:10:30,229 If you're a SaaS and your customers tell you, "Hey, you must run on Azure," 168 00:10:30,229 --> 00:10:34,439 or, "You must run on Oracle," or, "Must run on Hetzner," you now can. 169 00:10:34,459 --> 00:10:38,809 Your code, without any change, can run anywhere, even on-prem. 170 00:10:38,909 --> 00:10:42,746 We let you have observability built in We let you, as I 171 00:10:42,746 --> 00:10:44,446 mentioned, run by the millicore. 172 00:10:44,546 --> 00:10:47,566 We let you, communicate across clouds. 173 00:10:47,666 --> 00:10:52,036 If you have data in a VPC, let's say RDS, Relational Database Service, and 174 00:10:52,036 --> 00:10:56,566 you want to run the workload on-prem, yet communicate with RDS without 175 00:10:56,576 --> 00:10:59,036 poking holes in the firewall, you can. 176 00:10:59,136 --> 00:11:01,266 You can, run above the cloud. 177 00:11:01,266 --> 00:11:05,016 So today, when you run RDS as an example, you're paying a 178 00:11:05,016 --> 00:11:07,266 high premium to run a database. 179 00:11:07,306 --> 00:11:08,616 You're not paying for the compute. 180 00:11:08,716 --> 00:11:12,506 Control Plane lets you run any open source project very easily. 181 00:11:12,506 --> 00:11:15,276 We've certified, lots and lots of, templates. 182 00:11:15,576 --> 00:11:21,396 You can run Kafka, Postgres, MySQL, Cassandra, Mongo above the cloud. 183 00:11:21,396 --> 00:11:26,366 So if you wanted to move your persistent store to Linode or Hetzner 184 00:11:26,526 --> 00:11:29,006 or Oracle or on-prem, you can. 185 00:11:29,106 --> 00:11:33,386 If you need multi-master replication, we support that for many database types. 186 00:11:33,486 --> 00:11:39,246 we provide, sandboxes, so you can deploy workloads or, or write 187 00:11:39,286 --> 00:11:42,296 code in a isolated environment. 188 00:11:42,396 --> 00:11:46,866 The difference about our, sandboxes is that they allow you to communicate 189 00:11:46,876 --> 00:11:51,786 to your databases and other resources in private data centers or VPCs. 190 00:11:51,886 --> 00:11:56,006 And you can traverse the network boundary, easily connecting Amazon 191 00:11:56,006 --> 00:12:00,736 US East and Azure US West and Oracle in, the Middle East, et cetera. 192 00:12:00,836 --> 00:12:06,766 So you can think of all the clouds have, having merged and, with a hundred 193 00:12:06,816 --> 00:12:11,676 x simplification on how to consume them, but without any limitation. 194 00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:16,166 So if you need to use the native SDK for SQS, SNS, 195 00:12:18,549 --> 00:12:23,239 Dynamo, or any other native service, you can we, we-- think of us as 196 00:12:23,249 --> 00:12:27,109 a virtual cloud, just like what virtualization did to servers. 197 00:12:27,139 --> 00:12:30,459 You didn't care if it's Dell or HP, we do to cloud. 198 00:12:30,469 --> 00:12:34,479 We make it so you don't care and the agent doesn't care if you're running 199 00:12:34,479 --> 00:12:37,243 on Azure or any other, cloud provider. 200 00:12:37,443 --> 00:12:41,853 In fact, you can deliver traffic close to where the customer is, and if there 201 00:12:41,853 --> 00:12:46,443 is a failure, let's say Amazon US East is down, you automatically get routed to GCP 202 00:12:46,443 --> 00:12:48,463 or to Amazon US West or somewhere else. 203 00:12:48,473 --> 00:12:51,493 So you deliver low latency and extreme high availability. 204 00:12:51,493 --> 00:12:55,653 We provide a five-nine guarantee, translating to five minutes, fifteen 205 00:12:55,653 --> 00:12:58,343 seconds per year of cumulative downtime. 206 00:12:58,443 --> 00:13:04,553 So the reason customers come to us is for unbreakable compute, for, extreme 207 00:13:04,613 --> 00:13:07,723 ease of use, for, cost optimization. 208 00:13:07,763 --> 00:13:12,203 Many of our customers save about fifty percent compared to running natively 209 00:13:12,233 --> 00:13:17,083 on Amazon or Google because They can pay for what they use and not pay for 210 00:13:17,103 --> 00:13:18,823 a cow when you need a glass of milk. 211 00:13:18,853 --> 00:13:22,563 'Cause when you buy a Kubernetes cluster, you pay for the brain nodes, 212 00:13:22,663 --> 00:13:25,843 the worker nodes, you pay a hundred percent of their utilization, even 213 00:13:25,843 --> 00:13:27,723 though they may consume twenty percent. 214 00:13:27,773 --> 00:13:30,273 And on control plane, you pay twenty percent if you're 215 00:13:30,273 --> 00:13:31,403 consuming twenty percent. 216 00:13:31,503 --> 00:13:35,433 Bret (2): so you built this sort of unified API layer over multiple clouds 217 00:13:35,533 --> 00:13:39,663 and, It sounds like you're adding almost like your own custom services on top 218 00:13:39,663 --> 00:13:42,763 of that like you mentioned the, the sandboxing, and obviously someone can, 219 00:13:42,763 --> 00:13:45,983 design their own little, EC2 instance or whatever, or they can, they can try 220 00:13:45,983 --> 00:13:47,323 to design their own sandboxing solution. 221 00:13:47,323 --> 00:13:49,803 But it sounds like you're, you're adding these as, specific services 222 00:13:49,803 --> 00:13:52,523 on top of that unified API, This is actually a long question. 223 00:13:52,733 --> 00:13:53,763 I'm spitballing here. 224 00:13:53,933 --> 00:13:56,823 But, you could implement something in one of those sandboxes or one of 225 00:13:56,823 --> 00:14:00,943 your other, ideas on top of any of the clouds, whether or not that cloud has a 226 00:14:00,943 --> 00:14:03,613 particular offering labeled that, right? 227 00:14:03,613 --> 00:14:06,943 'Cause when I think of unified cloud, I think of, reducing it down 228 00:14:06,943 --> 00:14:10,663 to its core elements and then, only getting to use those core elements. 229 00:14:10,663 --> 00:14:13,463 But it sounds like you're enriching on top of that API to 230 00:14:13,473 --> 00:14:14,683 give us higher level services. 231 00:14:14,743 --> 00:14:19,113 Doron: yes, people assume because we unify the cloud, we give 232 00:14:19,113 --> 00:14:21,223 you, lowest common denominator. 233 00:14:21,323 --> 00:14:23,063 But in fact, we're the opposite. 234 00:14:23,093 --> 00:14:27,353 We give you the union of all clouds, because now You can write the code 235 00:14:27,353 --> 00:14:33,223 with a native SDK for Google, for Cloud Spanner, for Amazon, for, SQS, 236 00:14:33,233 --> 00:14:38,416 for, Azure, for cloud, for, let's say, Entra ID or Cosmos DB or whatever 237 00:14:38,516 --> 00:14:42,246 machine learning service that is on Azure, and we allow you to consume 238 00:14:42,246 --> 00:14:44,876 those services without credentials. 239 00:14:44,976 --> 00:14:47,326 Why is it important in the era of AI? 240 00:14:47,336 --> 00:14:50,856 You do not want to leak to the LLM, the credentials. 241 00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:57,176 So neither in design time, meaning coding, nor at runtime are keys exposed, and 242 00:14:57,176 --> 00:15:01,066 in fact, you don't even have to rotate the keys because you get ephemeral, 243 00:15:01,236 --> 00:15:03,246 zero trust, least privileged tokens. 244 00:15:03,346 --> 00:15:07,486 and we patented the technology called Universal Cloud Identity that 245 00:15:07,496 --> 00:15:13,656 basically gives you the identity, the IAM of all the clouds in a much more, 246 00:15:13,756 --> 00:15:18,406 streamlined manner, and the code is devoid of credentials completely. 247 00:15:18,706 --> 00:15:22,936 Yet the code can only do the exact, operations on the exact 248 00:15:22,936 --> 00:15:25,426 resources you granted it access to. 249 00:15:25,526 --> 00:15:27,756 Bret (2): what are you seeing with adoption? 250 00:15:27,816 --> 00:15:31,386 as a, as someone who's… I've managed infrastructure for over 30 years 251 00:15:31,386 --> 00:15:35,076 at this point, and, w- we've been chasing this dream in ops land of, 252 00:15:35,126 --> 00:15:36,706 the unified control plane, right? 253 00:15:36,706 --> 00:15:40,336 we've had for decades now, ever since really the cloud or before, we've 254 00:15:40,336 --> 00:15:42,356 had all these attempts at unifying. 255 00:15:42,356 --> 00:15:43,776 You know, VMware wanted to do it. 256 00:15:43,786 --> 00:15:45,096 Microsoft tried to do it. 257 00:15:45,196 --> 00:15:49,866 we had just all these different pieces, and the best we could do was, like, stick 258 00:15:49,866 --> 00:15:53,486 to one OS and then use their, I think they, system management tools or whatever. 259 00:15:53,586 --> 00:15:56,996 And then I feel like ever since then I've been chasing this dream, whether 260 00:15:56,996 --> 00:16:01,006 it was Terraform or Chef and Puppet before that, and then we got Pulumi, and 261 00:16:01,006 --> 00:16:05,876 we've had all these different attempts at, one control plane essentially that 262 00:16:05,876 --> 00:16:09,786 controls not necessarily my workloads, but just the infrastructure behind it, 263 00:16:09,886 --> 00:16:12,266 and it's always felt like a compromise. 264 00:16:12,376 --> 00:16:17,166 It always felt like if I'm gonna do Terraform, that's great, but it's gonna 265 00:16:17,166 --> 00:16:21,776 get much harder as I go multi-cloud, and I'm gonna be spending my days in TOML 266 00:16:21,786 --> 00:16:25,136 hell just trying to make sure I don't break things with a, with an update. 267 00:16:25,236 --> 00:16:28,396 So I'm curious of, like, some customer stories around, onboarding. 268 00:16:28,416 --> 00:16:31,076 How do people get to control plane from where they are, 269 00:16:31,076 --> 00:16:31,976 and what does that look like? 270 00:16:32,076 --> 00:16:32,376 Doron: Yeah. 271 00:16:32,376 --> 00:16:36,716 So we have, over, eighteen hundred, now over two thousand customers. 272 00:16:36,786 --> 00:16:40,086 Some of them are very large, some of them are tiny, doing 273 00:16:40,086 --> 00:16:41,746 vibe, coding type projects. 274 00:16:41,846 --> 00:16:46,576 And most of the larger customers, the-- none of them are greenfield. 275 00:16:46,616 --> 00:16:51,683 They're all coming from Amazon, from Google, from Heroku, from, uh, 276 00:16:52,263 --> 00:16:57,045 Azure, and they all have a sprawling, degree of Helm charts and, Terraform 277 00:16:57,052 --> 00:16:59,852 or Pulumi or Crossplane, artifacts. 278 00:16:59,952 --> 00:17:06,695 And we have, mechanical translation in the CLI allowing you to take a Kubernetes 279 00:17:06,695 --> 00:17:10,645 YAML and enrich it to the Control Plane YAML because Kubernetes doesn't 280 00:17:10,655 --> 00:17:17,175 have the concept of the global virtual cloud, a cloud made up of N clusters. 281 00:17:17,185 --> 00:17:21,345 So in Control Plane, I can take three clusters or three hundred and turn 282 00:17:21,345 --> 00:17:25,125 them into one global virtual cloud or actually subdivide them into many 283 00:17:25,165 --> 00:17:30,405 global virtual clouds and deploy an application to the GVC, which is like 284 00:17:30,405 --> 00:17:36,965 a VPC, but spread across two regions or a hundred in one cloud or many So our 285 00:17:36,965 --> 00:17:41,565 customers typically have a couple days up to a couple weeks, depending on how 286 00:17:41,565 --> 00:17:45,795 large the customer is, of migration, which is, again, that mechanical 287 00:17:45,895 --> 00:17:51,205 translation of their YAML or Helm chart or other artifacts to Control Plane. 288 00:17:51,305 --> 00:17:54,475 But we integrate very nicely into their CI/CD pipelines. 289 00:17:54,575 --> 00:17:56,935 We integrate with Flux or Argo CD. 290 00:17:57,035 --> 00:17:58,565 so it's very natural. 291 00:17:58,845 --> 00:18:00,675 The learning curve is very shallow. 292 00:18:00,775 --> 00:18:04,655 Once you learn Control Plane, you feel, and what I hear from customers, 293 00:18:04,755 --> 00:18:07,155 we run circles around our peers. 294 00:18:07,255 --> 00:18:11,245 And one customer, I think the best compliment I ever got was after 295 00:18:11,245 --> 00:18:15,085 using Control Plane, moving back to not using Control Plane is like 296 00:18:15,085 --> 00:18:19,025 going from iPhone seventeen to Nokia from nineteen ninety-seven. 297 00:18:19,125 --> 00:18:22,865 That's-- And, and now, that was very rewarding for me to hear, and 298 00:18:22,945 --> 00:18:24,895 I would-- I'm eager to demonstrate. 299 00:18:24,995 --> 00:18:29,785 and my objective is after this, call, y- are you gonna go back to 300 00:18:29,785 --> 00:18:33,355 the old ways or are you gonna adopt Control Plane to deploy your code? 301 00:18:33,455 --> 00:18:37,405 I think it's the latter, because, it's-- we, we truly give you, 302 00:18:37,505 --> 00:18:40,495 Dan Wilson as a service, the one I, I mentioned, I started with. 303 00:18:40,505 --> 00:18:45,435 He's our CTO, and he really, rather than you having to spend or the AI having 304 00:18:45,455 --> 00:18:51,005 to spend millions of tokens reinventing the wheel, focus on what matters, which 305 00:18:51,005 --> 00:18:56,225 is your rocket shipping system or your, whatever the thing that you're doing 306 00:18:56,325 --> 00:18:59,015 and not be, knee-deep in the toil. 307 00:18:59,295 --> 00:19:00,435 and there is a lot of toil. 308 00:19:00,465 --> 00:19:04,235 It's one thing to have toil, but why should every company 309 00:19:04,335 --> 00:19:06,605 reinvent the same wheel? 310 00:19:06,645 --> 00:19:11,565 Logging, metrics, tracing, secrets, m- mutual TLS between services because 311 00:19:11,575 --> 00:19:17,245 you want a service mesh, audit trail, scaling, scaling strategies, failover 312 00:19:17,345 --> 00:19:19,475 Should every company reinvent that wheel? 313 00:19:19,475 --> 00:19:20,475 Does that make sense? 314 00:19:20,565 --> 00:19:24,715 Should every company have an Exchange server engineer babysitting email? 315 00:19:24,995 --> 00:19:26,495 That was the case. 316 00:19:26,775 --> 00:19:29,915 It isn't anymore because it doesn't make sense when you can, 317 00:19:30,015 --> 00:19:33,965 shift left or whatever, delegate that, mundane responsibility to 318 00:19:33,965 --> 00:19:35,935 somebody who is excelling at it. 319 00:19:36,187 --> 00:19:36,987 And think about it. 320 00:19:36,997 --> 00:19:41,317 If every company reinvents the same items I just mentioned, it represents 321 00:19:41,357 --> 00:19:46,484 technical debt because now you need to maintain, fix the CVEs, upgrade Kubernetes 322 00:19:46,504 --> 00:19:50,434 every three months, upgrade Istio, upgrade Prometheus, upgrade Grafana. 323 00:19:50,534 --> 00:19:54,594 When do you have time to do the actual work when you're babysitting 324 00:19:54,594 --> 00:19:57,764 an infrastructure that your peers are doing the same thing? 325 00:19:57,864 --> 00:20:01,214 We say stop with the babysitting of infrastructure, start 326 00:20:01,254 --> 00:20:03,134 delivering value to customers, 327 00:20:03,234 --> 00:20:05,094 Bret (2): We talked about this last time when we, we had a 328 00:20:05,114 --> 00:20:06,394 r- a call a couple weeks ago. 329 00:20:06,494 --> 00:20:10,890 The, the assumption that I have about services like this, like if I'm looking 330 00:20:10,890 --> 00:20:13,590 at your homepage and I've not talked to you and I don't know anything about 331 00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:17,640 the company, is that, to me, there's always a compromise, I feel like. 332 00:20:17,650 --> 00:20:23,100 And so when I think about the complexity of the cloud APIs, just for AWS, the, 333 00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:26,900 "This Week in AWS" podcast with Corey Quinn, I've been, I've been on his 334 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:30,950 show, he's been on mine, but I, I always find his articles about, yet another 335 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,960 AWS service that we don't understand what it is, and it's redundant. 336 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,370 And, and so he talks about the hundreds and hundreds of services they have, and 337 00:20:37,630 --> 00:20:41,480 it's, th- there's always a customer for the things, but it may not be you or me. 338 00:20:41,580 --> 00:20:46,373 And I always find it hilariously complex that I am so behind on how 339 00:20:46,373 --> 00:20:50,053 many of those products I don't know about and I've never used, and it just, 340 00:20:50,153 --> 00:20:52,223 Am I even an engineer if I don't understand half the 341 00:20:52,223 --> 00:20:53,843 things that AWS deploys, right? 342 00:20:53,843 --> 00:20:54,763 Sometimes I question it. 343 00:20:54,763 --> 00:20:59,293 But, I'm curious about, how your API relates to their product APIs, and how 344 00:20:59,293 --> 00:21:02,923 you guys have been able to innovate around covering all the bases to make 345 00:21:02,923 --> 00:21:07,073 sure that we're not left with, this reduced abstraction that's only the 346 00:21:07,173 --> 00:21:10,573 same core fundamentals across every cloud, but you're allowed to, you're 347 00:21:10,573 --> 00:21:12,233 able to e- enrich it a little bit. 348 00:21:12,233 --> 00:21:13,103 Tell me a little bit about that. 349 00:21:13,123 --> 00:21:13,673 How's that work? 350 00:21:13,773 --> 00:21:15,423 Doron: Yeah, that's a great question. 351 00:21:15,470 --> 00:21:19,153 So I mentioned we're not the lowest common denominator, but the 352 00:21:19,153 --> 00:21:20,673 union, and what does that mean? 353 00:21:20,773 --> 00:21:25,333 It means if Amazon came up with a Bret service a microsecond from now, 354 00:21:25,603 --> 00:21:30,273 we would support it because we're not trying to, abstract the API, 355 00:21:30,283 --> 00:21:32,583 the native API to the Bret service. 356 00:21:32,583 --> 00:21:35,543 We integrate at the identity and access management layer. 357 00:21:35,617 --> 00:21:41,910 And so we would mechanically be able to pull permissions from their IAM IAM 358 00:21:41,910 --> 00:21:44,170 system relating to the new Bret service. 359 00:21:44,210 --> 00:21:49,340 The coder, AI or human, would use the native SDK if there is one to the 360 00:21:49,340 --> 00:21:51,670 Bret service or the C-- or the API. 361 00:21:51,743 --> 00:21:56,913 We just inject the token necessary for the Bret service to do its work, 362 00:21:57,203 --> 00:22:01,433 and we're able to do it whether you-- the workload is running on-prem, 363 00:22:01,533 --> 00:22:06,587 on Hetzner, on DigitalOcean, , on Google, on Amazon, on Azure. 364 00:22:06,687 --> 00:22:11,610 So because we integrate at the IAM, the identity and access management layer 365 00:22:11,710 --> 00:22:12,100 Bret (2): Yeah 366 00:22:12,388 --> 00:22:16,388 Doron: We are supportive of any new service that Google, Amazon or 367 00:22:16,388 --> 00:22:18,968 anybody else provides instantly. 368 00:22:18,968 --> 00:22:21,188 There is no work that we need to do. 369 00:22:21,288 --> 00:22:27,128 And the likelihood of Amazon or anybody else changing their identity and access 370 00:22:27,128 --> 00:22:32,741 management APIs that we exploit are zero, because if they change their APIs, 371 00:22:32,771 --> 00:22:34,631 the cl-- the world would break, right? 372 00:22:34,651 --> 00:22:38,521 Because everybody, millions of people have, utilized their services. 373 00:22:38,531 --> 00:22:42,411 So if they were to change, they would give you multi-year head start. 374 00:22:42,511 --> 00:22:48,151 but, because again, we integrate at the IAM level, when you consume, let's say, 375 00:22:48,221 --> 00:22:54,125 RDS, but you're on, Azure, the, the, the workload is running on Azure or on-prem, 376 00:22:54,225 --> 00:22:59,845 we obtain the correct token from their STS, their security token service, and 377 00:22:59,845 --> 00:23:05,845 know how to inject it at runtime from the SDK to RDS, in our case, And, so in 378 00:23:05,845 --> 00:23:11,418 effect, the workload is liberated and no longer captive to the subject cloud. 379 00:23:11,418 --> 00:23:13,658 You can now move amongst the clouds. 380 00:23:13,758 --> 00:23:16,818 People spent millions of dollars moving from Amazon to Google or 381 00:23:16,828 --> 00:23:20,888 Google to Oracle, but on Control Plane, the cloud is your oyster. 382 00:23:20,888 --> 00:23:24,488 You can move from Amazon to Google, from Google to on-prem, from on-prem 383 00:23:24,488 --> 00:23:29,958 to whatever with a click of a button, and you can leverage all of them. 384 00:23:30,258 --> 00:23:34,608 So we flip the script where the clouds want to-- their 385 00:23:34,638 --> 00:23:36,438 objective is to lock you in. 386 00:23:36,538 --> 00:23:41,988 We flip it on its head and, turn them in-into just commoditized utilities. 387 00:23:42,088 --> 00:23:46,068 So when you consume electricity, your TV doesn't care if it's 388 00:23:46,108 --> 00:23:48,061 Edison or somebody else. 389 00:23:48,161 --> 00:23:49,641 It cares about the interface. 390 00:23:49,741 --> 00:23:55,545 With Control Plane, you now have a virtual cloud operating system that utilizes 391 00:23:55,585 --> 00:23:59,245 the power, the whole power of Amazon, the whole power of Google, et cet- et 392 00:23:59,245 --> 00:24:01,415 cetera, but without locking you in. 393 00:24:01,435 --> 00:24:01,815 Bret (2): Yeah. 394 00:24:01,915 --> 00:24:05,095 I wanna change the conversation a little bit to be more specific 395 00:24:05,115 --> 00:24:09,135 on some of the AI, uh, stuff that we're all managing right now. 396 00:24:09,135 --> 00:24:14,025 So, this whole year for me has been really focused in understanding other DevOps 397 00:24:14,045 --> 00:24:18,265 teams and, platform engineering teams, like understanding the way that they're 398 00:24:18,265 --> 00:24:20,305 using agent harnesses to do their job. 399 00:24:20,305 --> 00:24:23,255 I think, if we f- if we rewound a year ago, maybe even three or four years 400 00:24:23,255 --> 00:24:27,241 ago when Google Copilot was kinda like the first IDE to throw AI completion 401 00:24:27,241 --> 00:24:30,221 in, and even in those early days, I think I demoed it when it was in 402 00:24:30,221 --> 00:24:31,641 beta when we were on this channel. 403 00:24:31,641 --> 00:24:33,891 I remember one summer we were, I think it was 2022 or something. 404 00:24:33,901 --> 00:24:37,131 It was before ChatGPT came out, and we were, like, looking at the, the early 405 00:24:37,131 --> 00:24:41,851 GPT model that was embedded in, in GitHub Copilot, and the, VS Code UI. 406 00:24:41,951 --> 00:24:44,891 And we were, we were trying to see how far we could get with YAML 407 00:24:44,891 --> 00:24:47,391 and TOML by tab completing, right? 408 00:24:47,391 --> 00:24:50,561 Like, we were trying to figure out how much time can it save me as an, 409 00:24:50,571 --> 00:24:54,501 as a ops engineer, but we were really just talking about file completion, 410 00:24:54,551 --> 00:24:56,461 completion in a YAML statement. 411 00:24:56,471 --> 00:25:00,891 So, it was saving me keystrokes, and it maybe, was saving me potentially 412 00:25:00,891 --> 00:25:03,481 some human error that would hopefully be caught by a linter, 413 00:25:03,581 --> 00:25:05,041 but it wasn't a huge gain, right? 414 00:25:05,041 --> 00:25:07,611 And so you fast-forward a little bit, and then we're all, 415 00:25:07,651 --> 00:25:08,751 we're doing that with ChatGPT. 416 00:25:08,751 --> 00:25:09,831 People are copying and pasting. 417 00:25:09,831 --> 00:25:13,371 And then last year when we got Claude Code for the first time and we under- we 418 00:25:13,371 --> 00:25:17,281 started to understand what an agent loop is, it, it started to shift and I started 419 00:25:17,281 --> 00:25:22,181 to notice that my, my production friends were all dabbling with letting their, the 420 00:25:22,181 --> 00:25:25,531 first thing they would do is let their agent have, a read access token to some 421 00:25:25,531 --> 00:25:29,088 part of their infrastructure so that it could maybe run the kubectl commands for 422 00:25:29,088 --> 00:25:31,978 them or run the AWS CLI commands for them. 423 00:25:32,078 --> 00:25:36,695 And I was doing that same thing for, like, GitHub CLIs for, for CI. 424 00:25:36,695 --> 00:25:36,705 CI. 425 00:25:36,715 --> 00:25:39,675 Like, I cared about GitHub Actions and, my build status and stuff 426 00:25:39,675 --> 00:25:42,505 like that, so I was, I was managing that middle portion, and I was 427 00:25:42,505 --> 00:25:43,875 using agents to, keep track of it. 428 00:25:43,875 --> 00:25:47,205 And now it's like these are all inherent features that are really built in. 429 00:25:47,215 --> 00:25:49,675 They, they've got the background workers, the sub-agents, and things 430 00:25:49,675 --> 00:25:51,165 that are making this really possible. 431 00:25:51,165 --> 00:25:53,745 But I'm curious what you're seeing with your customers. 432 00:25:53,895 --> 00:25:57,205 how, how are they driving their infrastructure with AI? 433 00:25:57,825 --> 00:26:00,305 Like, I guess maybe if we can get to some, into some nitty-gritty 434 00:26:00,305 --> 00:26:03,915 details around, are they focused on only using their agent harness? 435 00:26:03,915 --> 00:26:07,025 Are they using, MCP to, to Control Plane? 436 00:26:07,025 --> 00:26:09,058 Are they using, Control Plane CLIs? 437 00:26:09,098 --> 00:26:11,838 Like, how are they actually doing this work, and what are some 438 00:26:11,838 --> 00:26:12,668 of the stories you're hearing? 439 00:26:12,768 --> 00:26:17,478 Doron: Yeah, our customers, pretty much all use our MCP server, 440 00:26:17,578 --> 00:26:24,318 and we always pride ourselves in providing all the accessibility. 441 00:26:24,418 --> 00:26:29,008 Of course, at the lower end is, is the API, but everything you can do in the 442 00:26:29,028 --> 00:26:35,131 API, you can do in the CLI, Terraform, Pulumi, Crossplane, UI, and MCP. 443 00:26:35,231 --> 00:26:37,810 To us, these are symmetric interfaces. 444 00:26:37,910 --> 00:26:42,640 Of course, with MCP, you can now bring the intelligence to let it discover 445 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,872 what can be done, and now you can have conversational infrastructure. 446 00:26:46,872 --> 00:26:50,242 You now have the equivalent of a enterprise architect/platform 447 00:26:50,362 --> 00:26:57,062 engineer/DevOps/SRE bundled into one that you can have a conversation with. 448 00:26:57,202 --> 00:27:00,302 you can tell me the app you want to build and the dependencies that 449 00:27:00,302 --> 00:27:04,698 you want to have, and the MCP will go and negotiate and build those 450 00:27:04,698 --> 00:27:07,138 things that we want to build for us. 451 00:27:07,238 --> 00:27:11,521 And then if we need to troubleshoot or need to look at observability, the 452 00:27:11,541 --> 00:27:15,981 MCP is able to look at the traces, the logs, the metrics, a- and add the 453 00:27:15,981 --> 00:27:18,901 intelligence to give you actionable items. 454 00:27:19,201 --> 00:27:25,870 So you feel like you have the best SREs and platform engineers at Google with you 455 00:27:25,870 --> 00:27:28,120 twenty-four seven, and you don't pay them. 456 00:27:28,220 --> 00:27:32,690 So you can vibe code a very complex system made up of 20 microservices all 457 00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:37,570 intertwined with databases and queues and, and caches and say, "Okay, give 458 00:27:37,570 --> 00:27:42,980 it to me codified." And our codified version is always backwards compatible. 459 00:27:42,990 --> 00:27:46,060 So I'm sure Kubernetes deprecate stuff every three months. 460 00:27:46,060 --> 00:27:48,170 You have some deprecations and new APIs. 461 00:27:48,270 --> 00:27:50,730 It's a fairly unstable substrate. 462 00:27:50,830 --> 00:27:53,920 So if you wanted to take YAML from 10 years ago and just run 463 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,040 it, you'll run into issues. 464 00:27:56,140 --> 00:27:57,830 So we made an early choice. 465 00:27:57,930 --> 00:27:59,790 Bret (2): At a minimum warnings, possibly errors, yeah 466 00:27:59,890 --> 00:28:00,240 Doron: Right. 467 00:28:00,290 --> 00:28:01,800 And we made a decision. 468 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,880 We, we noticed that six years ago and made the very, I think, good decision of 469 00:28:06,910 --> 00:28:09,470 always having backwards compatibility. 470 00:28:09,570 --> 00:28:14,800 So if you take YAML from six years ago and apply it today, you'll get the exact same 471 00:28:14,830 --> 00:28:19,880 artifacts on top of any compute substrate, whether it's on-prem, Azure, etcetera. 472 00:28:19,980 --> 00:28:23,075 Bret (2): we-- Are-- When you s- when you say that, are we talking 473 00:28:23,075 --> 00:28:27,495 about your customers can continue to use Terraform or Pulumi? 474 00:28:27,605 --> 00:28:30,395 I'm assuming that that's how they're, they're interacting with you, right? 475 00:28:30,395 --> 00:28:33,915 Like, they're, they're talking to your API from these particular 476 00:28:34,015 --> 00:28:35,495 management tools, right? 477 00:28:35,495 --> 00:28:38,492 I'm ass- I'm assuming, um, OpenTofu is s- is supported. 478 00:28:38,712 --> 00:28:40,432 What else, what are the other ways? 479 00:28:40,462 --> 00:28:43,332 'Cause, o- one of the things I've started to see with agents is if, 480 00:28:43,342 --> 00:28:46,662 if you're a singular cloud, it might just be better if your, if your 481 00:28:46,682 --> 00:28:50,952 agent is the complete interface to h- whatever the description language is. 482 00:28:51,052 --> 00:28:54,612 I've seen some examples of people actually switching away from Terraform back to 483 00:28:54,612 --> 00:28:59,072 the native, cloud formation or whatever of their cloud, because they look at 484 00:28:59,072 --> 00:29:03,422 it as there's this agent abstraction between me and the YAML or the JSON. 485 00:29:03,432 --> 00:29:08,222 I don't have to be the expert in every single line of that anymore, so I 486 00:29:08,222 --> 00:29:12,012 actually care more about, some of the inherent functionality of a different, 487 00:29:12,112 --> 00:29:16,442 of, of the language tooling itself rather than, we always looked at Terraform 488 00:29:16,442 --> 00:29:19,152 as maybe a little bit more to, easier to understand than cloud formation. 489 00:29:19,352 --> 00:29:22,552 A little bit, a little less comprehensive, a little, little less verbose. 490 00:29:22,652 --> 00:29:25,082 But if you've got an agent in the way, that matters less. 491 00:29:25,112 --> 00:29:26,912 Are you seeing anything like that? 492 00:29:26,962 --> 00:29:30,122 Are, are you seeing people, switch, products now that they're 493 00:29:30,142 --> 00:29:32,192 using agents, as their interface? 494 00:29:32,292 --> 00:29:33,612 Doron: Somewhat, yes. 495 00:29:33,642 --> 00:29:37,152 I've seen people that, that used certain… I don't want to name names 496 00:29:37,152 --> 00:29:42,132 'cause I don't want to dish on any one platform, but there are many equivalents. 497 00:29:42,222 --> 00:29:46,122 Like when-- whether you use Crossplane, Pulumi, CloudFormation, 498 00:29:46,262 --> 00:29:49,092 Terraform, and a few others, they're functionally equivalent. 499 00:29:49,092 --> 00:29:50,872 They're like French, English, Spanish. 500 00:29:51,142 --> 00:29:53,622 You can express the same ideas in these languages. 501 00:29:53,622 --> 00:29:57,332 They do things in slightly different manners, like Pulumi is more, 502 00:29:57,432 --> 00:30:01,682 programmatic than, than, declarative, and Terraform is more declarative. 503 00:30:01,782 --> 00:30:06,372 But at the end of the day, they express a desired state, and there is a 504 00:30:06,382 --> 00:30:10,822 translation layer that takes the desired state, like with DAG on, on the case 505 00:30:10,822 --> 00:30:16,222 of, Terraform, and applies in the right order, calls the APIs that are affecting 506 00:30:16,222 --> 00:30:18,292 the, the actual resources in the cloud. 507 00:30:18,392 --> 00:30:20,032 It's just a translation, right? 508 00:30:20,032 --> 00:30:23,272 So like you said, if I don't have to write to that language, 509 00:30:23,302 --> 00:30:27,722 why can't I talk in English and let it make the calls directly? 510 00:30:27,822 --> 00:30:28,852 But here is the thing. 511 00:30:28,952 --> 00:30:35,472 Terraform, as an example, or OpenTofu, invested heavily in doing the DAG and 512 00:30:35,472 --> 00:30:39,872 doing the validation and doing stuff that the agent itself will have to reinvent 513 00:30:39,882 --> 00:30:44,232 what they had done to apply things in the right order and give you the rigor that 514 00:30:44,232 --> 00:30:46,232 they have already baked into the platform. 515 00:30:46,332 --> 00:30:50,942 It is better, like in the Excel example I've ga-- I've given, to let the 516 00:30:50,962 --> 00:30:56,462 agent leverage a tool like Terraform than to learn, the underlying, API. 517 00:30:56,472 --> 00:30:57,542 It's, it's possible. 518 00:30:57,592 --> 00:31:00,422 here it's, it's, it's not an exact science. 519 00:31:00,432 --> 00:31:03,222 Here is subject to, to, judgment. 520 00:31:03,322 --> 00:31:07,092 It can call the, the direct, it can call the API, it can call 521 00:31:07,092 --> 00:31:09,372 the CLI of the AWS, let's say. 522 00:31:09,472 --> 00:31:14,542 It can call, a CDK, There are many, again, equivalent, logically 523 00:31:14,542 --> 00:31:15,992 equivalent, options here. 524 00:31:16,242 --> 00:31:16,562 So 525 00:31:16,662 --> 00:31:16,792 Bret (2): So 526 00:31:16,896 --> 00:31:17,066 Doron: our 527 00:31:17,072 --> 00:31:17,382 Bret (2): you, I 528 00:31:17,482 --> 00:31:21,532 Doron: w- w- we, we just give you the, the one API, and it's your choice. 529 00:31:21,562 --> 00:31:26,392 You tell the AI, " Use the API, use Terraform, use YAML, use JSON, JSON, 530 00:31:26,402 --> 00:31:31,072 use, CRD." We give the choice to the customer or the AI, and the AI would 531 00:31:31,072 --> 00:31:35,862 choose the, the least token-consuming manner that it can operate in 532 00:31:35,962 --> 00:31:40,322 Bret (2): So when someone's migrating to your platform, if they're using 533 00:31:40,322 --> 00:31:43,922 CloudFormation, d- I'm assuming you don't support CloudFormation because 534 00:31:43,932 --> 00:31:45,702 you're sitting in front of the AWS. 535 00:31:45,792 --> 00:31:46,252 Like, you're, you're 536 00:31:46,388 --> 00:31:46,718 Doron: Correct. 537 00:31:46,822 --> 00:31:47,302 Bret (2): different 538 00:31:47,402 --> 00:31:50,232 Doron: we, we don't support cloud formation for control plane. 539 00:31:50,242 --> 00:31:53,672 We have customers that use cloud formation to create their S3 buckets 540 00:31:53,672 --> 00:31:57,152 and their RDS and their Dynamo, then, then they tell control plane, 541 00:31:57,252 --> 00:32:02,242 run a workload that connects to the S3 bucket to RDS to Dynamo. 542 00:32:02,342 --> 00:32:04,282 They're not, in conflict with each other. 543 00:32:04,322 --> 00:32:05,872 They're just not overlapping. 544 00:32:05,972 --> 00:32:10,502 There is no reason for us to introduce a cloud formation concept 'cause 545 00:32:10,502 --> 00:32:13,412 it's a proprietary, lingo of AWS. 546 00:32:13,412 --> 00:32:17,052 So we are operating at the cloud agnostic, layer. 547 00:32:17,112 --> 00:32:18,592 We fly above the cloud. 548 00:32:18,692 --> 00:32:20,772 We don't wanna fly in, in that cloud. 549 00:32:20,782 --> 00:32:21,712 We fly above it 550 00:32:21,812 --> 00:32:23,952 Bret (2): Do you see, do you think that Terraform is still the 551 00:32:23,962 --> 00:32:26,622 primary way your customers are managing their infrastructure? 552 00:32:26,642 --> 00:32:27,822 Do you see that as, the majority? 553 00:32:27,922 --> 00:32:29,569 Doron: I would call it 60%. 554 00:32:29,669 --> 00:32:30,059 Bret (2): Okay 555 00:32:30,169 --> 00:32:33,489 Doron: Just because of inertia, Not because it has a, a, a 556 00:32:33,489 --> 00:32:35,219 specific advantage, like I said. 557 00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:39,899 Whether it's Terraform, Pulumi, or Crossplane, or something else, All they 558 00:32:39,899 --> 00:32:45,009 are, are syntactic sugar on top of the API with some DAG, that, that decides 559 00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:49,209 what to create first and what to destroy first, and maybe save the state and so on. 560 00:32:49,309 --> 00:32:53,739 So to me, those are fairly commoditized, languages. 561 00:32:53,839 --> 00:32:57,669 So for, for the audience to understand, we don't compete with 562 00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:59,489 Terraform, not even a little bit. 563 00:32:59,589 --> 00:33:02,239 It's like a car doesn't compete with, a sandwich. 564 00:33:02,439 --> 00:33:04,449 It's two different animals completely. 565 00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:04,809 Bret (2): yeah. 566 00:33:04,859 --> 00:33:07,144 so we talked about customer base, and, like, the different 567 00:33:07,144 --> 00:33:08,384 size of customers, right? 568 00:33:08,384 --> 00:33:12,334 And it's hard for, any one cloud to always, a-adopt all customers, right? 569 00:33:12,384 --> 00:33:16,024 We, we all think of, the digital oceans and, the Vercels of the world, that 570 00:33:16,024 --> 00:33:19,374 they're all like a very niche cloud, that they've got a very specific purpose, 571 00:33:19,384 --> 00:33:22,464 and then you have the three hyperscalers that are just everything for everyone, 572 00:33:22,464 --> 00:33:26,294 but it's also impossible for anyone to get on board really easily, right? 573 00:33:26,394 --> 00:33:31,324 Do you, do you see, are small teams of, with n-no developers or very few 574 00:33:31,324 --> 00:33:34,784 operators or anything like that, do they-- Is Control Plane being used by 575 00:33:34,784 --> 00:33:36,434 those kinds of small little companies? 576 00:33:36,464 --> 00:33:39,924 'Cause I, I have a scenario where I'm thinking, I have, companies 577 00:33:39,924 --> 00:33:44,554 that are, they, th-they might have one or two IT staff, but, they 578 00:33:44,554 --> 00:33:45,704 don't have internal developers. 579 00:33:46,004 --> 00:33:49,624 So usually when it, it's hard to figure out, as a consultant, your heart, it's 580 00:33:49,624 --> 00:33:51,374 hard to figure out, what do I do for them? 581 00:33:51,374 --> 00:33:54,244 Because I either have to put them on a hyperscaler, and then now they 582 00:33:54,244 --> 00:33:56,104 can't do anything without me, right? 583 00:33:56,104 --> 00:33:59,434 I become a bottleneck, which I, I, me as a consultant, I don't ever wanna do that. 584 00:33:59,434 --> 00:34:01,394 I wanna be instantly replaceable re-usually. 585 00:34:01,494 --> 00:34:06,124 Or I have to put them on some sort of niche cloud that, if it's too niche, it 586 00:34:06,124 --> 00:34:10,084 may not be here in five years, or it might be somehow limited i-in, in what it can 587 00:34:10,084 --> 00:34:14,394 do, and then I'm li- like a Lovable for AI or whatever, like these, these little 588 00:34:14,424 --> 00:34:16,104 fly-by-night dashboard companies, right? 589 00:34:16,404 --> 00:34:19,784 Do you… W-what's it look like for the really small teams on, on Control Plane? 590 00:34:19,884 --> 00:34:24,704 Doron: The good news, you will always have a substrate to run upon 'cause it can 591 00:34:24,704 --> 00:34:29,394 be, like I said, your on-prem, it can be Azure, Google, Amazon, Oracle, et cetera. 592 00:34:29,494 --> 00:34:34,194 And we have customers that have, non, traditional developers, certainly no 593 00:34:34,194 --> 00:34:38,724 dev… We have DevOps engineers that use Control Plane, platform engineers, 594 00:34:38,824 --> 00:34:43,584 but we have people that are just vibe coding and not know anything about… 595 00:34:43,604 --> 00:34:46,284 They don't know the if statement, and they still deploy 596 00:34:46,284 --> 00:34:48,064 successfully on Control Plane. 597 00:34:48,164 --> 00:34:51,174 case in point, my younger son, wanted to build an app. 598 00:34:51,214 --> 00:34:53,834 He never wrote a code, any piece of code in his life. 599 00:34:54,084 --> 00:34:57,824 He was able to write a full game, which was pretty impressive, and 600 00:34:57,824 --> 00:35:00,704 run it on Control Plane, and he didn't even ask me how to do it. 601 00:35:00,804 --> 00:35:05,244 So he deployed the whole game with a back end, and, I was shocked. 602 00:35:05,284 --> 00:35:08,574 You know, I, I helped develop the product, and I was shocked at, 603 00:35:08,624 --> 00:35:12,174 at, at what he was able to do, and he's never written a line of code 604 00:35:12,194 --> 00:35:14,544 despite me wanting him to, to learn. 605 00:35:14,644 --> 00:35:15,664 But he was able to do it. 606 00:35:15,664 --> 00:35:19,294 So we have many people with no coding experience that are 607 00:35:19,294 --> 00:35:20,674 able to be very successful. 608 00:35:20,774 --> 00:35:21,124 Bret (2): Yeah. 609 00:35:21,224 --> 00:35:23,844 Do you think that's a-- With AI, I mean, I, I know my answer to this question, 610 00:35:23,844 --> 00:35:25,114 but, it's like a leading question. 611 00:35:25,114 --> 00:35:28,294 Do you think that with these agents getting better and better and th- 612 00:35:28,304 --> 00:35:32,384 there's the… Now we got Cowork and, and Claude Code built into people's 613 00:35:32,484 --> 00:35:35,674 Claude and ChatGPT subscriptions for people that aren't technical, right? 614 00:35:35,674 --> 00:35:37,454 You don't have to use the TUI anymore. 615 00:35:37,554 --> 00:35:41,634 And so I feel like we're, we're heading to a, pretty quickly to a place where non-IT 616 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,780 staff are getting more and more power to be able to potentially do things like 617 00:35:45,780 --> 00:35:48,910 vibe code their own app and deploy it on the internet, and If they don't have the 618 00:35:51,187 --> 00:35:51,787 IT staff to help them manage it, they can, they can at least get 619 00:35:51,787 --> 00:35:53,637 by with some, some simpler stuff. 620 00:35:53,687 --> 00:35:55,367 do you see that happening on Control Plane too? 621 00:35:55,377 --> 00:35:56,807 It sounds like it is, since your, since 622 00:35:56,809 --> 00:35:57,439 Doron: 100%. 623 00:35:57,449 --> 00:36:01,619 We are, we are releasing a, more consumer-oriented… 624 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:02,679 I'll come out and say it. 625 00:36:02,699 --> 00:36:05,199 We are, the, shipping very soon. 626 00:36:05,299 --> 00:36:09,009 We're in the tail end of, Vers- not Vercel, but, Lovable 627 00:36:09,189 --> 00:36:11,379 and Replit, Base44 killer. 628 00:36:11,479 --> 00:36:15,249 And why we're able to do what they do, but they're not able to do 629 00:36:15,249 --> 00:36:17,989 what we do, is the coding agents. 630 00:36:18,089 --> 00:36:23,309 when you look at Replit, most of the effort has been put into, Guardrails 631 00:36:23,529 --> 00:36:29,469 and skills that are just, wrappers, assisting agents for, for the LLM. 632 00:36:29,569 --> 00:36:33,489 and, and those are now in the LLM itself most of the, of the time. 633 00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:38,019 The heavy lifting is allowing you to run on any cloud, letting you scale 634 00:36:38,029 --> 00:36:41,129 using a hundred different scaling strategies, letting you fail over 635 00:36:41,129 --> 00:36:44,749 automatically, leveraging hundreds of diff- the operational stuff. 636 00:36:44,849 --> 00:36:48,319 So we've been hard at work building this operating system for six and a 637 00:36:48,319 --> 00:36:51,879 half years, and it's not something you can vibe code, absolutely not. 638 00:36:51,979 --> 00:36:58,879 And so we built this operating system, and for us to layer the, consumer-facing 639 00:36:58,979 --> 00:37:04,409 app builder is a lot easier than for an, an app builder to create an 640 00:37:04,419 --> 00:37:06,499 operating system for running, anywhere. 641 00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:08,919 Replit is I, I played with it a little bit. 642 00:37:09,019 --> 00:37:10,739 It's a, it's a good tool. 643 00:37:10,859 --> 00:37:14,489 I don't know that it will let you scale to Netflix grade. 644 00:37:14,589 --> 00:37:18,629 I, I think what happens is, and I wrote an article that I'm publishing, but many 645 00:37:18,629 --> 00:37:23,219 people, when they start scaling or need security or need compliance, they get 646 00:37:23,249 --> 00:37:27,219 off of that vibe coding platform, where Control Plane takes you all the way to 647 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,839 Netflix grade cloud native maturity. 648 00:37:29,939 --> 00:37:35,186 You get the compliance, the security, the scalability, the, unbreakable compute. 649 00:37:35,286 --> 00:37:37,696 Bret (2): I would just assume that a lot of those platforms are not 650 00:37:37,706 --> 00:37:39,876 like, SOC 2, PCI, you know, HIPAA, 651 00:37:41,369 --> 00:37:42,419 Doron: HIPAA, right 652 00:37:42,527 --> 00:37:46,040 Bret (2): all the things that like a dec- any decent sized company is gonna care 653 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,480 about, and there's probably someone in marketing vibe coding something on Lovable 654 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:50,960 that's completely not up to standards. 655 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,210 For me, my experience so far has been one of the biggest challenges in like the vibe 656 00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:59,680 codings products out there, is they don't really answer the data problem, right? 657 00:37:59,690 --> 00:38:02,870 Like, 'cause usually m- everyone that I've talked to so far, like creating 658 00:38:02,870 --> 00:38:05,570 a dashboard is cute, and these are, these are important things for teams. 659 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,720 but th- th- there needs to be data on that dashboard. 660 00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:12,680 There needs to be data in that app, and it's usually existing cust- company data 661 00:38:12,890 --> 00:38:17,780 locked up somewhere, usually not behind like a perfectly designed open portal 662 00:38:17,950 --> 00:38:23,480 with a proper API across every surface with, with automatic, token delivery 663 00:38:23,490 --> 00:38:27,050 for people that request it to ins- Like, there's just this whole infrastructure 664 00:38:27,050 --> 00:38:29,364 of cloud native that a lot of companies 665 00:38:29,364 --> 00:38:30,524 they haven't matured to yet. 666 00:38:30,814 --> 00:38:35,204 And that's to me, like building these vibe coding platforms for companies, which I 667 00:38:35,214 --> 00:38:37,634 think, yeah, again, like we could probably do a whole separate podcast on, but 668 00:38:37,634 --> 00:38:43,094 like that world is inherently necessary that you have a very modern mature 669 00:38:43,094 --> 00:38:44,954 infrastructure before you can do that. 670 00:38:45,054 --> 00:38:50,629 ' Cause a lot of it is about, automation and security and encryption and, l- 671 00:38:50,629 --> 00:38:52,214 like you said, auditing and compliance. 672 00:38:52,214 --> 00:38:56,584 That's, that's where I live, and that's where the vibe coded app, while it may 673 00:38:56,584 --> 00:39:01,154 not be stable or highly redundant, it has to… It, it… Those things are almost 674 00:39:01,154 --> 00:39:03,254 like optional, maybe someday things. 675 00:39:03,254 --> 00:39:05,834 But what's not usually optional is for this thing to be useful, I 676 00:39:05,834 --> 00:39:08,684 need to access that SQL database, and how do I get that, right? 677 00:39:08,694 --> 00:39:10,564 How do I ensure that that data doesn't leak? 678 00:39:10,564 --> 00:39:12,684 How do I make sure that this is behind the firewall? 679 00:39:12,684 --> 00:39:15,744 Like, there's all those levels of complexity that I don't see 680 00:39:15,744 --> 00:39:18,724 the Replitz and the Lovables of the world ever truly tackling. 681 00:39:18,724 --> 00:39:21,274 So I think you're right that this is probably… These, these solutions 682 00:39:21,274 --> 00:39:25,064 are probably gonna come more from infrastructure companies like yourself 683 00:39:25,074 --> 00:39:31,057 rather than a, a startup that's focusing on AI as a, as a sort of, magic button. 684 00:39:31,157 --> 00:39:33,037 So, I'm, I'm interested to get into that. 685 00:39:33,037 --> 00:39:36,197 So I know you brought some demos, and we could talk about this product 686 00:39:36,217 --> 00:39:39,487 forever, but I, I feel like we've, we've covered some of the questions 687 00:39:39,487 --> 00:39:41,077 that I wanted to, to know about. 688 00:39:41,177 --> 00:39:43,077 l- l- what are we gonna, what are we gonna look at today? 689 00:39:43,177 --> 00:39:47,257 Doron: So I want to show you, I, I want to do a tour around the platform, and 690 00:39:47,257 --> 00:39:52,577 I'll give a sneak peek at some of the power you get right out of the box, and 691 00:39:52,677 --> 00:39:57,577 traverse the network boundaries, allow you to run an app anywhere, even on-prem, 692 00:39:57,677 --> 00:40:01,777 that consumes any service of any cloud, show you the observability, show you 693 00:40:01,777 --> 00:40:05,947 the audit trail, show you the Terraform, capabilities and, and stuff like that. 694 00:40:05,947 --> 00:40:09,497 So just give you a general tour so people know what exists. 695 00:40:09,527 --> 00:40:15,157 And, most people don't know that they have at their fingertips so much power, 696 00:40:15,257 --> 00:40:17,227 and they keep struggling with Amazon. 697 00:40:17,327 --> 00:40:21,877 And, w-where you can get a hundred x the productivity by leveraging, 698 00:40:21,917 --> 00:40:23,817 a, a platform like Control Plane. 699 00:40:23,917 --> 00:40:28,327 and not only that, save a bundle because you're not running full EC2 700 00:40:28,367 --> 00:40:30,597 instances, you're running the millicores. 701 00:40:30,897 --> 00:40:35,077 So you can literally run your Bret app for six-- five and a half cents a 702 00:40:35,077 --> 00:40:39,817 day, a day meaning twenty-four hours, literally less than six cents a day. 703 00:40:39,917 --> 00:40:43,787 and yet people are spending money on NAT gateways, load balancers and, 704 00:40:43,897 --> 00:40:47,247 Kubernetes nodes and pay hundreds of dollars per month when they can 705 00:40:47,247 --> 00:40:48,857 be paying, cents on the dollar. 706 00:40:48,957 --> 00:40:50,007 And that's what I want to show. 707 00:40:50,107 --> 00:40:51,157 Boom questions? 708 00:40:51,257 --> 00:40:52,487 Bret (2): no, this is, this is a lot. 709 00:40:52,587 --> 00:40:56,077 That's, I'm trying to think of my workflows and, like, how my workflows 710 00:40:56,087 --> 00:41:00,267 for creating infrastructure and managing infrastructure need to adapt to this 711 00:41:00,267 --> 00:41:02,667 model, 'cause it's, it's flexible enough. 712 00:41:02,667 --> 00:41:04,057 you have click ops, right? 713 00:41:04,117 --> 00:41:09,827 but it seems so easy to hop back and forth between the click ops, 'cause it feels 714 00:41:09,827 --> 00:41:14,777 like the click ops is backed because you have that versioning and the audit trail. 715 00:41:14,877 --> 00:41:18,817 you don't, it doesn't, it looks like you've removed the risk of the, sort of 716 00:41:18,817 --> 00:41:23,577 the rogue click that now is no longer compatible or, or can- isn't tracked in 717 00:41:23,577 --> 00:41:25,827 a way that you can update your Terraform. 718 00:41:25,827 --> 00:41:28,707 this is the classic problem of, we're git- we're trying to do GitOps, and 719 00:41:28,707 --> 00:41:33,017 we're putting all of our infrastructure in, in Git, and we're storing changes 720 00:41:33,017 --> 00:41:35,767 there, and we've maybe got some automation for Terraform plans and 721 00:41:35,767 --> 00:41:38,697 applies, or we've got, we've got some stuff going on there, and that's the 722 00:41:38,697 --> 00:41:39,647 only way we're supposed to do it. 723 00:41:39,647 --> 00:41:43,597 And then we get some person that shows up and in an emergency or because they 724 00:41:43,597 --> 00:41:48,177 didn't know or whatever, they go into the AWS console and make a change, 725 00:41:48,457 --> 00:41:54,387 and now I'm bifurcated, and I have no path to success because AWS isn't 726 00:41:54,387 --> 00:41:58,087 gonna really easily export, it's not gonna to export Terraform for me. 727 00:41:58,357 --> 00:42:02,787 And so I have to figure out what they changed before, I risk blowing their 728 00:42:02,787 --> 00:42:05,127 stuff away with my future Terraform apply. 729 00:42:05,227 --> 00:42:07,837 And so we, we've always had this challenge in infrastructure of, 730 00:42:07,887 --> 00:42:09,347 sometimes we do need the click ops. 731 00:42:09,347 --> 00:42:12,997 Sometimes we ne- do need to be able to go into a GUI really quick, troub- especially 732 00:42:12,997 --> 00:42:15,377 when you're, like, troubleshooting or just trying to recover from outage. 733 00:42:15,637 --> 00:42:19,477 You don't wanna stare at a bunch of l- code in TOML forever. 734 00:42:19,777 --> 00:42:23,357 So you're, you're usually in the, in the dis- in this GUI app trying to 735 00:42:23,357 --> 00:42:26,447 figure things out, but you also know that y- it's, you can't touch it. 736 00:42:26,647 --> 00:42:29,247 It has to be read-only because you need to make your changes somewhere 737 00:42:29,247 --> 00:42:30,357 else, and you're so nervous. 738 00:42:30,357 --> 00:42:32,977 So it feels like you've kinda thought about that a little bit. 739 00:42:33,177 --> 00:42:35,577 Doron: Yeah, and everything, like I said, everything you 740 00:42:35,577 --> 00:42:38,587 can get as, YAML or, or JSON. 741 00:42:38,687 --> 00:42:42,547 But here is our app running, and so we give you a more consumer-y 742 00:42:42,567 --> 00:42:44,057 interface to this thing. 743 00:42:44,157 --> 00:42:47,999 but the bottom line, it's really backed by the control plane API, and the control 744 00:42:47,999 --> 00:42:54,809 plane API lets you run anywhere, and with, with determinism, and, and it's the same. 745 00:42:54,809 --> 00:42:57,699 You c-- Again, you can run it on your Raspberry Pi or Dell machine. 746 00:42:57,799 --> 00:43:01,619 And the cloud wormhole, which I haven't demonstrated, allows you to 747 00:43:01,619 --> 00:43:07,149 very, very easily connect to an RDS instance in a VPC or connect from 748 00:43:07,149 --> 00:43:11,439 a, the seven different locations here to my own Redis on my machine. 749 00:43:11,539 --> 00:43:14,829 And we have a service catalog where you can run above the cloud. 750 00:43:14,879 --> 00:43:19,379 If you want to run CockroachDB or Cassandra or really any open source 751 00:43:19,389 --> 00:43:22,669 project, we certify these s-services. 752 00:43:22,769 --> 00:43:27,199 Like let's say I want to run Hermes Agent or Langfuse or Keycloak or, you 753 00:43:27,249 --> 00:43:32,309 name it, Postgres, Mongo You can run them at the cost of the infrastructure 754 00:43:32,409 --> 00:43:36,519 instead of paying a premium to RDS. 755 00:43:36,539 --> 00:43:39,719 You pay double what the compute is, but Control Plane lets you 756 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,689 do backups, lets you do leaders election, lets you do multi-master 757 00:43:43,689 --> 00:43:45,669 replication with different add-ons. 758 00:43:45,769 --> 00:43:48,839 You can run Ollama, you can run whatever you want to run. 759 00:43:48,939 --> 00:43:54,571 and you can conversationally say, "Hey, get me an N8n, run me a Hermes agent, 760 00:43:54,581 --> 00:44:00,248 run me, know, OpenBaO or run me whatever, Postgres very, very easily." you, 761 00:44:00,288 --> 00:44:02,038 you can do all of, all of that stuff. 762 00:44:02,038 --> 00:44:03,998 And again, you can run anywhere. 763 00:44:04,098 --> 00:44:04,458 Bret (2): Yeah 764 00:44:04,510 --> 00:44:06,700 Doron: w-we're not going to do an exhaustive demonstration. 765 00:44:06,700 --> 00:44:10,340 one of the things that, that people care about is security, and you 766 00:44:10,340 --> 00:44:14,940 can set very granular policies of who is allowed to do exactly what. 767 00:44:14,950 --> 00:44:19,360 You can say, this agent is allowed only to push image but not delete an image. 768 00:44:19,460 --> 00:44:23,600 This Lisa can only, read a certain value but not write. 769 00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:26,090 Secrets are only available to X and Y. 770 00:44:26,190 --> 00:44:28,360 So everything is very, very granular. 771 00:44:28,460 --> 00:44:31,170 and th-there is a lot, a lot more. 772 00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:32,850 You can set custom domains. 773 00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:35,960 we have customers with twenty thousand different domains, and 774 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,300 they run perfectly on Control Plane. 775 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:44,200 It gives you the confidence to operate above the clouds without being bogged down 776 00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:46,770 by the complexity of any particular cloud. 777 00:44:46,770 --> 00:44:49,380 And the thing I wanted to show, because we have this thing called 778 00:44:49,420 --> 00:44:52,273 Capacity AI That is by default on. 779 00:44:52,373 --> 00:44:57,463 If you look at the spend, you're spending twenty-five millicores 'cause the system 780 00:44:57,463 --> 00:45:01,953 learned over time that Bret video game only needs twenty-five one-thousandth 781 00:45:01,953 --> 00:45:04,183 of a CPU and thirty-two megs of RAM. 782 00:45:04,283 --> 00:45:08,553 If you go to the control plane pricing and plug in-- And you can bring your 783 00:45:08,563 --> 00:45:12,523 own compute, or you can use control plane compute, or you can do both. 784 00:45:12,623 --> 00:45:16,253 So twenty-five millicores and thirty-two megs of RAM cost you a 785 00:45:16,253 --> 00:45:18,173 dollar seventy-eight per month, period. 786 00:45:18,183 --> 00:45:20,893 You don't pay for load balancers, you don't pay for nodes, 787 00:45:20,893 --> 00:45:21,893 you don't pay for anything. 788 00:45:21,913 --> 00:45:22,933 That's all you pay. 789 00:45:23,033 --> 00:45:24,353 We charge you by the second. 790 00:45:24,453 --> 00:45:28,243 let's say a full hour would cost you, No, sorry, a full day would 791 00:45:28,243 --> 00:45:30,503 cost you less than six cents. 792 00:45:30,603 --> 00:45:35,493 So if you ran the Bret app for a full twenty-four hours in a location, 793 00:45:35,593 --> 00:45:37,363 it would cost you six cents. 794 00:45:37,363 --> 00:45:41,413 That's why I'm saying sometimes running it in more locations is even cheaper 795 00:45:41,513 --> 00:45:45,003 than running it in a single location, 'cause if you were to stand up a EKS 796 00:45:45,033 --> 00:45:49,003 cluster, you would pay hundreds of dollars in a month to heat up the planet 797 00:45:49,043 --> 00:45:50,843 Earth or to make Jeff Bezos richer. 798 00:45:50,943 --> 00:45:55,743 We let you pay for what you eat, not for heating up the planet Earth. 799 00:45:55,843 --> 00:45:57,463 So extremely cost-effective 800 00:45:57,563 --> 00:45:59,713 Bret (2): In that, in the, the workflows you were showing 801 00:45:59,905 --> 00:46:02,882 as you would, as you were doing this stuff, I w- guess one of my questions is 802 00:46:02,932 --> 00:46:07,972 Deployment configurations and design can often be, hard for teams, especially when 803 00:46:07,972 --> 00:46:09,542 they start to adopt Kubernetes, right? 804 00:46:09,542 --> 00:46:13,742 Because then they have to pick Flux or Argo, and they have to decide on a 805 00:46:13,872 --> 00:46:17,682 particular way to deploy that, and then they have to configure it all correctly, 806 00:46:17,682 --> 00:46:20,756 and then when they have b- a bunch of different apps, yeah, so my premise was, 807 00:46:20,816 --> 00:46:25,286 like one of the, one of the challenges that I, I train people on and is a lar- 808 00:46:25,336 --> 00:46:28,776 a d- decent amount of my consulting over the last six years has been once 809 00:46:28,786 --> 00:46:32,706 teams adopt Kubernetes, there becomes this deployment complexity because it's 810 00:46:32,716 --> 00:46:34,376 not enough to just have Kubernetes. 811 00:46:34,376 --> 00:46:38,266 Then, then you need, your code's stored in a place, GitHub, GitLab, whatever, and 812 00:46:38,266 --> 00:46:39,716 then you gotta connect all that together. 813 00:46:40,006 --> 00:46:44,716 And, in the old days before containers, a- and even when we first, first 814 00:46:44,716 --> 00:46:48,016 started using containers, it was very much "I'm gonna write a CI job that 815 00:46:48,016 --> 00:46:51,866 runs kubectl apply," or, "I'm gonna run a Docker run, and, and it's gonna 816 00:46:51,916 --> 00:46:53,136 connect to the server from my CI." 817 00:46:53,413 --> 00:46:55,623 And then we grew up, and we realized we maybe need a more 818 00:46:55,693 --> 00:46:59,553 deterministic methodology, and then we started adopting Argo and Flux. 819 00:46:59,653 --> 00:47:03,553 And, and so for the longest time, I've been f- I've been advocating 820 00:47:03,553 --> 00:47:04,713 and teaching those technologies. 821 00:47:04,713 --> 00:47:07,823 We call it GitOps, but it doesn't necessarily have to be labeled that. 822 00:47:07,903 --> 00:47:11,453 and I'm curious how you, how your platform works with that. 823 00:47:11,463 --> 00:47:14,923 Does that m- It, it… You've got a lot of, glue there that feels like 824 00:47:14,923 --> 00:47:18,563 it makes a lot of these rough edges streamlined and it's almost like you're 825 00:47:18,563 --> 00:47:21,683 applying opinionated defaults, which I love because I'm a, I'm a very much a, 826 00:47:21,953 --> 00:47:23,553 an opinionated defaults kind of guy. 827 00:47:23,653 --> 00:47:28,483 when it comes to like the code in the repos, and is it as easy as 828 00:47:28,483 --> 00:47:31,973 someone on your platform pointing to repos, and then it figures out 829 00:47:31,983 --> 00:47:33,543 how to get it into Kubernetes? 830 00:47:33,583 --> 00:47:36,193 do they need to even worry about Argo at this point? 831 00:47:36,203 --> 00:47:39,293 'Cause you've been saying things like deploy this app, and it's doing it. 832 00:47:39,323 --> 00:47:40,383 I don't know how it's doing it. 833 00:47:40,383 --> 00:47:41,823 I know it's, I know it's running on Kubernetes. 834 00:47:42,063 --> 00:47:44,753 But what's that, that deployment look like for Control Plane? 835 00:47:44,753 --> 00:47:45,613 Is it automating it? 836 00:47:45,633 --> 00:47:47,423 Is it, is it doing Argo for you? 837 00:47:47,523 --> 00:47:49,343 Doron: So it c-- you can use Argo. 838 00:47:49,913 --> 00:47:55,206 So we have, a CRD, a control plane CRD, so you can have a cluster and, 839 00:47:55,306 --> 00:47:58,196 use Argo or Flux very naturally. 840 00:47:58,296 --> 00:48:02,226 the way it works, so you said, "I'm not sure how it works," so let me explain. 841 00:48:02,326 --> 00:48:04,466 you get the YAML. 842 00:48:04,496 --> 00:48:05,956 Let me share real quick. 843 00:48:06,056 --> 00:48:07,786 and again, YAML is just one of many. 844 00:48:07,786 --> 00:48:10,636 So if… let's take this guy for-- as an example. 845 00:48:10,736 --> 00:48:12,646 I can export, this YAML. 846 00:48:12,776 --> 00:48:14,496 So you can see the kind is workload. 847 00:48:14,506 --> 00:48:19,036 It's a new kind that doesn't exist on Kubernetes, and it has the different, 848 00:48:19,056 --> 00:48:23,586 like what's the memory, what's the scaling strategy, what GVC does it go on? 849 00:48:23,686 --> 00:48:28,176 And you j-just say CPLN apply and give it, minus F and give 850 00:48:28,176 --> 00:48:30,013 it the YAML, and it deploys it. 851 00:48:30,113 --> 00:48:33,413 Like I said, we have other ways to deploy, but at the end of 852 00:48:33,413 --> 00:48:36,133 the day, we have a data service. 853 00:48:36,173 --> 00:48:39,646 We have an-- we have the control plane API, and you make a call to 854 00:48:39,646 --> 00:48:43,783 the plane itself is, is running on Amazon, Google, and Azure, and 855 00:48:43,883 --> 00:48:45,643 the-- our data is distributed. 856 00:48:45,743 --> 00:48:51,786 It calls a component we call the which is a control plane, Go-based application. 857 00:48:51,886 --> 00:48:55,476 It runs on the edge, we call them edge clusters. 858 00:48:55,486 --> 00:48:59,056 So you can have one cluster, or in our case, we have one, two, three, 859 00:48:59,056 --> 00:49:01,496 four, five, six, seven clusters. 860 00:49:01,596 --> 00:49:03,320 These are different clusters. 861 00:49:03,420 --> 00:49:05,090 They can have hundreds of nodes. 862 00:49:05,190 --> 00:49:09,850 we provide clusters that are, cloudless, meaning we provide clusters, or you can 863 00:49:09,850 --> 00:49:13,510 bring your own, you can bring your own cluster like I did in the Ron office. 864 00:49:13,610 --> 00:49:18,130 I created the Kubernetes brain in the cloud, but I could have run OpenShift or 865 00:49:18,140 --> 00:49:22,100 EKS or whatever, in the local environment The-- what you need is a Kubernetes 866 00:49:22,140 --> 00:49:27,070 cluster with the actuator and a few other components like the, the log, collector, 867 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:28,550 the metrics collector, and so on. 868 00:49:28,650 --> 00:49:32,450 But we control planify a cluster, and then it becomes part of 869 00:49:32,450 --> 00:49:33,800 that global virtual cloud. 870 00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:38,500 We use NATs under the covers to have our, control plane, if you will, 871 00:49:38,660 --> 00:49:44,070 communicate the desired state to all the clusters, and they all take the desired 872 00:49:44,070 --> 00:49:46,550 state and actuate it in the cluster. 873 00:49:46,650 --> 00:49:51,040 So under the cover, you have, stateful sets or, deployments or, pods and 874 00:49:51,050 --> 00:49:55,340 all the Kubernetes goodness that is happening, but it has been abstracted. 875 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,420 And if you want to see the Kubernetes resources and, and it's a bring your 876 00:49:59,420 --> 00:50:04,650 own Kubernetes like I have here, you can get the kubeconfig and go edit 877 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,650 or use the dashboard and go edit. 878 00:50:06,750 --> 00:50:10,660 But we… You noticed we didn't have to issue kubectl apply commands 879 00:50:10,660 --> 00:50:14,940 and all that because there is an actuator component in this cluster 880 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,680 that went and did the actuation of the desired state Makes sense. 881 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:24,390 And also, if we are down, the, the cluster operates autonomously and serves traffic. 882 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:29,340 Maybe you can't upgrade the version of the workload, but A, we're very 883 00:50:29,340 --> 00:50:31,910 highly, redundant and highly available. 884 00:50:32,010 --> 00:50:34,170 so we're very, very unlikely to go down. 885 00:50:34,450 --> 00:50:37,820 But if we were to go down, we are the control plane, not the data plane. 886 00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,780 The data plane is where the data, flows, and you mentioned that earlier. 887 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,360 so hopefully that gives you kind 888 00:50:43,514 --> 00:50:44,124 Bret (2): the goal, right? 889 00:50:44,124 --> 00:50:47,554 Is like the control plane never, never takes down the data plane 890 00:50:47,654 --> 00:50:49,034 when it's, when it's unavailable. 891 00:50:49,034 --> 00:50:49,364 Yeah. 892 00:50:49,566 --> 00:50:50,196 Doron: Exactly. 893 00:50:50,246 --> 00:50:53,416 A, we're extremely… Yeah, and we test everything, like, 894 00:50:53,436 --> 00:50:54,976 like I can't even tell you. 895 00:50:55,076 --> 00:50:59,816 From day one, we created what we call the Observer Project, and it does 896 00:50:59,826 --> 00:51:04,146 twenty-four seven millions of tests simulating node failure, multi-node 897 00:51:04,146 --> 00:51:08,726 failure, cluster failure, AZ failure, region failure, whole cloud failure. 898 00:51:08,826 --> 00:51:10,386 And we do, fuzzing. 899 00:51:10,486 --> 00:51:15,436 We do random failure, introduction of failure modes with a core objective 900 00:51:15,486 --> 00:51:17,336 of making sure you never go down. 901 00:51:17,436 --> 00:51:20,796 So one of the things you get with Control Plane is mainframe-grade 902 00:51:20,936 --> 00:51:23,376 availability over commodity infrastructure 903 00:51:23,476 --> 00:51:26,561 Bret (2): All right Yeah, the fractional CPU, stuff is, is 904 00:51:26,571 --> 00:51:27,931 pretty flexible and pretty awesome. 905 00:51:27,931 --> 00:51:32,101 When you're running small stuff and you're a small company and every single 906 00:51:32,101 --> 00:51:36,161 workload you add has, this minimum cost to it, and Even when you try to 907 00:51:36,161 --> 00:51:40,701 run, small instances in an EC2 cluster, you're limited on how small you can go, 908 00:51:40,721 --> 00:51:46,181 and then you're inherently bottlenecked there if you ever get any decent traffic 909 00:51:46,201 --> 00:51:48,321 because it, it doesn't know how to… 910 00:51:48,361 --> 00:51:50,541 You, you have to build a lot of intelligence in in order for it to 911 00:51:50,541 --> 00:51:54,771 auto-scale up and correctly change the node size, if you need more memory 912 00:51:54,771 --> 00:51:59,171 because, a classic example is, a legacy app with a PDF export and someone 913 00:51:59,171 --> 00:52:03,481 decides to PDF export a report that isn't batched properly, so then it consumes 914 00:52:03,481 --> 00:52:06,761 all the memory on the server for one report, and then the, and then your tiny 915 00:52:06,761 --> 00:52:09,631 little app crashes the whole thing all because you wanted to print a report. 916 00:52:09,631 --> 00:52:13,101 So there's always, there's always, sizing challenges because you just want things, 917 00:52:13,111 --> 00:52:17,331 especially when, when it's, a small business kind of situation where, they, 918 00:52:17,341 --> 00:52:23,531 you tell them, $500 a month for something that they consider not worth all that is a 919 00:52:23,531 --> 00:52:27,131 hard sell when you're like, "Well, that's what it takes to be minimum redundant 920 00:52:27,131 --> 00:52:29,041 across regions in this particular cloud." 921 00:52:29,141 --> 00:52:32,531 And the idea that I can say, "Well, you're, you're only using this 922 00:52:32,531 --> 00:52:35,961 app internally, so we don't even need a single CPU. We need a half 923 00:52:35,961 --> 00:52:37,131 of one. We need a third of one," 924 00:52:37,231 --> 00:52:40,951 Doron: Yeah, we need a fif-fiftieth of one or, one, one-twentieth of one. 925 00:52:41,051 --> 00:52:45,701 Yeah, and that's… And you can now give people redundant availability for 926 00:52:45,701 --> 00:52:47,361 three dollars, five dollars a month. 927 00:52:47,461 --> 00:52:50,941 you can run an app for five dollars a month that is-- has the 928 00:52:50,941 --> 00:52:52,951 availability of a real enterprise. 929 00:52:53,261 --> 00:52:54,011 Bret (2): how do people get started? 930 00:52:54,021 --> 00:52:57,151 They go to Control Plane.com and sign up for an account? 931 00:52:57,251 --> 00:52:57,616 Doron: Yeah. 932 00:52:57,616 --> 00:52:58,971 Yeah, it's very easy. 933 00:52:59,071 --> 00:53:02,901 so they go to Control Plane, they click sign up, they follow the prompts. 934 00:53:02,941 --> 00:53:06,721 we ask for a credit card, and I find some people get intimidated. 935 00:53:06,821 --> 00:53:10,331 we're happy to give you, especially to your listeners, 936 00:53:10,431 --> 00:53:15,751 shoot me an email directly, Doron, D-O-R-O-N, @ Control Plane.com. 937 00:53:16,101 --> 00:53:19,791 I'll give you, basically a, a free month to experiment with. 938 00:53:19,791 --> 00:53:23,331 Of course, don't do crypto mining and don't do crazy stuff, but happy to 939 00:53:23,331 --> 00:53:25,231 let you experiment on the platform. 940 00:53:25,331 --> 00:53:30,741 Even if we were to charge you, you can run so cost effectively that unless you 941 00:53:30,741 --> 00:53:34,211 reach five dollars in spend, which is a lot on Control Plane, we don't charge you. 942 00:53:34,211 --> 00:53:37,921 So if you're under five dollars a month, we don't even charge you 'cause 943 00:53:37,921 --> 00:53:39,531 it's not worth it to send to Stripe. 944 00:53:39,631 --> 00:53:43,411 So many people can run real projects on Control Plane for less than five bucks. 945 00:53:43,511 --> 00:53:47,331 There is no platform fee, there's no per seat fee, there's just usage fee, 946 00:53:47,431 --> 00:53:49,051 and it's very, very cost effective. 947 00:53:49,221 --> 00:53:51,001 Bret (2): That's what I used to use Heroku for, so now m- 948 00:53:51,261 --> 00:53:52,541 now maybe you're my new Heroku 949 00:53:52,641 --> 00:53:54,301 Doron: Think of us as a non-toy Heroku. 950 00:53:54,401 --> 00:53:54,701 Bret (2): Yeah 951 00:53:54,759 --> 00:53:59,479 Doron: the non-toy, replace your, Heroku with, the, the, the cloud du jour. 952 00:53:59,579 --> 00:54:03,089 But, we give you all the power of all the clouds, but, with the 953 00:54:03,119 --> 00:54:05,119 ease of use of Heroku or better, 954 00:54:05,219 --> 00:54:06,529 Bret (2): thank you so much for being here, Doron. 955 00:54:06,629 --> 00:54:07,179 Doron: thank you. 956 00:54:07,189 --> 00:54:08,759 Really enjoyed, the conversation. 957 00:54:08,769 --> 00:54:10,429 You asked great questions. 958 00:54:10,519 --> 00:54:12,029 super happy we connected 959 00:54:12,129 --> 00:54:13,349 Bret (2): And we'll see you guys next time. 960 00:54:13,449 --> 00:54:13,689 Ciao.