WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:06.489 Lindsay: Okay. 00:00:06.489 --> 00:00:08.739 Welcome to the Lifting Lindsay podcast. 00:00:08.744 --> 00:00:12.399 Today I'm really excited to have a guest on, uh, Lauren 00:00:12.399 --> 00:00:17.589 Colnso-Semple, and I'm gonna have her go ahead and introduce herself. 00:00:18.544 --> 00:00:20.054 Lauren: Thanks so much for having me on. 00:00:20.474 --> 00:00:25.574 I have a PhD from McMaster University where I studied the influence 00:00:25.574 --> 00:00:29.954 of the menstrual cycle phase and oral contraceptive pill phase 00:00:30.014 --> 00:00:34.964 on the muscle protein synthesis, response to resistance exercise. 00:00:35.384 --> 00:00:39.104 I have a master's degree in exercise science from the University of 00:00:39.104 --> 00:00:43.844 South Florida where I studied resistance training volumes for 00:00:43.844 --> 00:00:46.214 strength and hypertrophy in women. 00:00:47.069 --> 00:00:54.299 And before I got into higher education and the the science world, I was a personal 00:00:54.299 --> 00:00:56.489 trainer and a group fitness instructor. 00:00:56.489 --> 00:01:02.549 So I definitely come from a lens of curiosity where it started, just for me 00:01:02.549 --> 00:01:09.149 trying to optimize my own results and the training programs for that of my clients. 00:01:10.259 --> 00:01:11.279 Lindsay: That is awesome. 00:01:11.279 --> 00:01:15.209 I did not know, I've heard you on a bunch of different podcasts, but I 00:01:15.209 --> 00:01:20.769 actually didn't know that you studied, oral contraceptives and pretty much 00:01:20.769 --> 00:01:24.969 how that influenced what was, what, what exactly did you study with that? 00:01:24.969 --> 00:01:25.989 I wanna hear more about that. 00:01:25.989 --> 00:01:26.829 That's really interesting. 00:01:27.207 --> 00:01:31.617 Lauren: Yeah, so typically with oral contraceptives, you're taking an 00:01:31.617 --> 00:01:35.037 active synthetic hormone for 21 days. 00:01:35.037 --> 00:01:38.637 Sometimes it's 24 days, but typically it's 21 days, and then, 00:01:39.027 --> 00:01:40.977 uh, for seven days you're taking. 00:01:41.517 --> 00:01:48.417 A placebo or an inactive pill, and that's when you experience a withdrawal bleed. 00:01:48.477 --> 00:01:51.507 So it's not actually a menstrual period, it's just a withdrawal 00:01:51.512 --> 00:01:54.837 bleed because you're no longer on the synthetic hormones. 00:01:55.077 --> 00:01:59.847 And so, and I've, I've, I've spoken about this before and perhaps your listeners 00:01:59.847 --> 00:02:02.247 are aware, but doing this type of research 00:02:02.727 --> 00:02:05.877 uh, where you compare one group to another group. 00:02:05.877 --> 00:02:09.297 So let's say we were comparing people on hormonal birth control to 00:02:09.297 --> 00:02:11.337 people off hormonal birth control. 00:02:11.342 --> 00:02:15.777 Sometimes the results can be a bit muddied because we're also different. 00:02:15.807 --> 00:02:20.517 And so what I was looking at is in the same individual, let's look at 00:02:20.517 --> 00:02:24.297 what happens during the active phase, so when they're taking the hormones, 00:02:24.477 --> 00:02:28.407 and then is it any different during the week where they're not taking the 00:02:28.407 --> 00:02:30.597 hormones within the same individual? 00:02:31.587 --> 00:02:32.187 Lindsay: Okay. 00:02:32.277 --> 00:02:32.547 Okay. 00:02:32.607 --> 00:02:33.987 This is really exciting. 00:02:33.987 --> 00:02:37.767 This makes me even more excited to talk to you about this topic because I 00:02:37.767 --> 00:02:43.947 invited Lauren on to talk about, I feel like a hot topic right now on social 00:02:43.947 --> 00:02:50.457 media, a lot of women are being told, will you, in order to optimize your, 00:02:51.087 --> 00:02:54.687 muscle growth or your performance, um. 00:02:55.212 --> 00:02:57.672 Yeah, or even fat loss. 00:02:58.212 --> 00:03:03.792 We really need to make sure that our training is timed 00:03:03.792 --> 00:03:06.252 really well with our cycle. 00:03:07.092 --> 00:03:12.702 So there's so many things that I feel like just that alone, women get lost in 00:03:12.702 --> 00:03:19.362 'cause they think, oh, okay, so when I am on my period, I can't be training hard. 00:03:19.572 --> 00:03:23.382 Or they don't even really know what, what's part of the. 00:03:23.787 --> 00:03:27.657 The menstrual phase they're not supposed to be training in and 00:03:27.867 --> 00:03:31.377 they're told they should do yoga during that time or not do anything. 00:03:31.377 --> 00:03:33.567 And so I'm really excited. 00:03:33.867 --> 00:03:39.807 I'm gonna have you start, if you don't mind talking about the, maybe the hormonal 00:03:39.807 --> 00:03:46.257 changes that happen and why people are saying we should change our training. 00:03:46.737 --> 00:03:47.547 Specifically, 00:03:47.547 --> 00:03:49.827 I think they're referring to more of weightlifting. 00:03:50.367 --> 00:03:51.087 Maybe not. 00:03:51.327 --> 00:03:52.617 That's just kind of my world. 00:03:53.282 --> 00:03:56.792 Lauren: That lifting is sort of my world as well, but this is certainly 00:03:56.792 --> 00:04:01.262 a research question that is a hot topic in the endurance training world, 00:04:01.262 --> 00:04:03.572 in the the vascular research world. 00:04:03.872 --> 00:04:07.742 Um, so there, there are a lot of, um. 00:04:07.817 --> 00:04:13.757 Kind of niches in exercise nutrition and metabolism science that are starting 00:04:13.757 --> 00:04:18.707 to be more and more interested in the influence of the, the menstrual cycle. 00:04:19.037 --> 00:04:23.237 And from a scientific perspective, it it, it's also a kind of a 00:04:23.237 --> 00:04:28.457 bigger picture issue of women being historically excluded from studies. 00:04:28.667 --> 00:04:33.347 And part of that is because of this potential concern that, oh, there 00:04:33.347 --> 00:04:36.347 might be an influence of this or that and we need to standardize. 00:04:36.422 --> 00:04:40.652 Training or testing in research around cycle phases, which is 00:04:40.652 --> 00:04:42.932 logistically really, really difficult. 00:04:43.262 --> 00:04:48.812 And so a lot of scientists have historically said, Hey, I just study men. 00:04:48.817 --> 00:04:49.442 It's easier. 00:04:49.622 --> 00:04:49.712 Mm-Hmm. 00:04:49.952 --> 00:04:54.122 Um, or perhaps they don't have the capability or the resources to do all 00:04:54.127 --> 00:04:58.682 of this cycle tracking and hormone measurements and ovulation testing, 00:04:58.712 --> 00:05:01.712 that that would be, you know, required. 00:05:02.192 --> 00:05:09.272 To publish research in women if, and I say if cycle phase is a, an influential 00:05:09.272 --> 00:05:11.642 factor in the outcomes of interest. 00:05:12.182 --> 00:05:18.572 So when we think about the menstrual cycle, there is a lot of misunderstanding 00:05:18.577 --> 00:05:23.372 here because when I say cycle, some people, as you say, hear menstrual period. 00:05:23.582 --> 00:05:29.042 The cycle is the, the full cycle from bleed to bleed. 00:05:29.102 --> 00:05:30.032 So the first. 00:05:30.842 --> 00:05:35.012 Five, seven days or so of your menstrual cycle is your menstrual period. 00:05:35.372 --> 00:05:40.382 But the, the rest of that cycle is when we actually see the more substantial 00:05:40.412 --> 00:05:46.412 hormone fluctuations, and we're primarily talking about fluctuations in estradiol, 00:05:47.162 --> 00:05:52.382 progesterone, and then for a brief time luteinizing hormone and follicle 00:05:52.382 --> 00:05:59.162 stimulating hormone, and obviously the primary purpose of these fluctuations, 00:05:59.822 --> 00:06:04.922 and of the menstrual cycle in general, is for reproductive function, but because. 00:06:05.552 --> 00:06:11.132 Of our interest as exercise physiologists in the influence of hormones, and we've 00:06:11.132 --> 00:06:12.782 explored that in men for a long time. 00:06:13.112 --> 00:06:16.832 Um, there, there are some questions about, well, if you do an acute 00:06:16.832 --> 00:06:22.022 performance test, like let's say your one rep max, or if we do training over 00:06:22.022 --> 00:06:27.062 several months and we're able to measure muscle growth, is menstrual cycle phase 00:06:27.122 --> 00:06:30.482 meaning, you know, a few days here or a few days there, a week here, a week 00:06:30.482 --> 00:06:32.132 there where we're seeing a different 00:06:33.257 --> 00:06:37.937 hormone profile going to influence those outcomes of interest. 00:06:37.942 --> 00:06:41.117 So that muscle hypertrophy, that strength performance. 00:06:41.777 --> 00:06:46.157 And I'll just add that if you're somebody who is on hormonal birth 00:06:46.157 --> 00:06:50.627 control, whether that is a birth control pill or an IUD, uh, you 00:06:50.632 --> 00:06:52.127 don't have a menstrual cycle anymore. 00:06:52.337 --> 00:06:58.127 So when you take a hormonal contraceptive, it suppresses those endogenous, 00:06:58.682 --> 00:07:04.502 are natural, uh, hormone fluctuations that occur during the, the natural cycle, 00:07:04.502 --> 00:07:09.512 natural menstrual cycle because you're introducing these synthetic hormones. 00:07:09.902 --> 00:07:14.972 So this wouldn't actually apply to the, the hormonal birth control users. 00:07:14.972 --> 00:07:18.962 This is specifically to those who are what we would call, you know, 00:07:18.962 --> 00:07:20.402 quote unquote naturally cycling. 00:07:20.407 --> 00:07:24.632 So they're not taking any hormones and they are, uh, pre meni menopause. 00:07:24.740 --> 00:07:27.290 Lindsay: I love that you brought that up, because that is so key. 00:07:27.290 --> 00:07:31.040 There are a lot of women who are on hormonal birth control, and yet they're 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:36.440 getting pulled into this because they have a time period where they bleed, 00:07:36.445 --> 00:07:43.370 and so they think that that's, oh, everything is still functioning as usual 00:07:43.370 --> 00:07:48.050 except for I just can't get pregnant, and so this still applies to me. 00:07:48.050 --> 00:07:50.060 I need to buy a program like this. 00:07:50.390 --> 00:07:54.680 And you also brought up those that are going, like you're in perimenopause 00:07:54.770 --> 00:07:59.660 or post menopause, like I, I feel like that's often not talked about 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:05.990 too, because you look at perimenopause and the shifts in hormones with women 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:10.430 and they're all over the place and they're so different per person. 00:08:10.430 --> 00:08:18.050 This clearly isn't talking to those groups of individuals on hormonal birth 00:08:18.050 --> 00:08:21.290 control and like peri post menopause. 00:08:21.740 --> 00:08:22.610 Did I get that right? 00:08:23.570 --> 00:08:23.780 Lauren: That's 00:08:23.780 --> 00:08:24.110 right. 00:08:24.200 --> 00:08:24.230 Lindsay: Okay. 00:08:24.410 --> 00:08:29.240 Lauren: And one thing that is sort of in, uh, you, the perimenopause 00:08:29.270 --> 00:08:33.110 or individuals and the premenopausal individuals have in common is what you 00:08:33.110 --> 00:08:37.460 just pointed out, the difference between individuals and the fact that the hormones 00:08:37.460 --> 00:08:38.930 can kind of be all over the place. 00:08:38.935 --> 00:08:42.350 Because what we see in this textbook. 00:08:42.650 --> 00:08:47.900 Diagram of the menstrual cycle is that it's 28 days and during the 00:08:47.905 --> 00:08:52.700 first 14 days, all the hormones are low and then estradiol increases. 00:08:52.700 --> 00:08:57.980 And so we're seeing this estradiol peak right in the middle of the cycle or right 00:08:57.985 --> 00:08:59.960 just before the middle of of the cycle. 00:08:59.990 --> 00:09:02.240 And then right in the middle we see. 00:09:02.660 --> 00:09:06.320 Uh, luteinizing hormone peak, and that's indicative of ovulation. 00:09:06.650 --> 00:09:10.550 And then during the second half of the cycle, so post ovulation, 00:09:10.850 --> 00:09:16.460 we see progesterone increase and then peak sort of mid, uh. 00:09:17.060 --> 00:09:20.870 second half or what we would call the luteal phase, and we also see 00:09:20.870 --> 00:09:22.760 a secondary peak in estradiol. 00:09:22.760 --> 00:09:28.970 It's not quite as high as the first pre ovulatory peak, but we we're still 00:09:28.970 --> 00:09:31.490 seeing moderately high estradiol there. 00:09:31.730 --> 00:09:33.830 So just to kind of simplify it, we'd say. 00:09:34.350 --> 00:09:38.070 The, when you're on your period, all the hormones are low. 00:09:38.550 --> 00:09:42.390 The week or so after we see an increase in estradiol and then the 00:09:42.390 --> 00:09:46.830 increase in, in, uh, glut luteinizing hormone and there's your ovulation. 00:09:46.830 --> 00:09:50.730 And then during the, the latter half of the cycle, it's cat 00:09:50.790 --> 00:09:54.480 characterized by high progesterone and moderately high estradiol. 00:09:55.410 --> 00:09:59.160 Now, when we actually measure those hormones in different people 00:09:59.160 --> 00:10:01.950 through multiple cycles, it looks. 00:10:02.675 --> 00:10:06.095 At the individual level, almost never like it does in that 00:10:06.275 --> 00:10:08.645 really pretty textbook picture. 00:10:08.915 --> 00:10:13.235 And what I mean by that is that the timing of those fluctuations differs 00:10:13.265 --> 00:10:18.335 from women to women and the magnitude of those fluctuations, meaning, 00:10:18.605 --> 00:10:23.225 uh, if you, if you Google menstrual cycle hormone fluctuations, you see. 00:10:23.660 --> 00:10:26.540 These really substantial hormone spikes when you actually 00:10:26.540 --> 00:10:27.860 measure people's blood hormones. 00:10:27.980 --> 00:10:32.510 Some people have very small spikes and that's just normal for them. 00:10:32.750 --> 00:10:34.970 So what's quote unquote normal? 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:41.030 Um, meaning reproductive function as far as we know is normal. 00:10:41.090 --> 00:10:48.140 Um, and healthy and cycle or bleed to bleed is normal and regular. 00:10:48.230 --> 00:10:49.730 And these aren't people who have. 00:10:50.375 --> 00:10:53.315 Any sort of menstrual cycle dysfunction. 00:10:53.555 --> 00:10:58.775 Um, it's a, a regular cycle and these are healthy individuals, but the, 00:10:58.985 --> 00:11:04.415 the cycle length or the timing of the ovulation, or the extent to which 00:11:04.415 --> 00:11:10.745 these hormones spike is really, really variable from one woman to another. 00:11:10.895 --> 00:11:15.875 So we can't really say, well, this is the hormone profile for everyone across the 00:11:15.875 --> 00:11:19.055 board, and that's where it starts to be. 00:11:20.015 --> 00:11:25.145 Really questionable when people, uh, market these kind of one size fits 00:11:25.145 --> 00:11:28.295 all programs in the fitness space. 00:11:29.055 --> 00:11:31.785 Lindsay: So, with that, let's go, let's review. 00:11:31.875 --> 00:11:38.115 When do women usually see, uh, a, a lowering of strength, 00:11:38.655 --> 00:11:41.505 maybe recovery and performance? 00:11:41.535 --> 00:11:45.045 'cause a lot of women, like we talked about at the beginning, 00:11:45.345 --> 00:11:48.585 they think, oh, well this is just talking about when I'm bleeding. 00:11:49.020 --> 00:11:52.980 So during bleed, that's when, and you said hormones are low. 00:11:52.980 --> 00:11:57.150 Women think, oh, because hormones are low, then I don't have 00:11:57.150 --> 00:11:58.980 strength, I don't have recovery. 00:11:59.310 --> 00:12:00.330 All of those things. 00:12:00.900 --> 00:12:04.950 But when is it actually, when we see strength recovery, all 00:12:04.950 --> 00:12:06.150 those things be hit a little bit. 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:12.990 Lauren: Statistically speaking, uh, there's, there's one good 00:12:12.990 --> 00:12:15.420 meta-analysis, uh, on this topic. 00:12:15.425 --> 00:12:17.255 And they, and they did find that. 00:12:17.805 --> 00:12:18.435 Performance. 00:12:18.465 --> 00:12:24.105 And that was exercise performance overall, not just strength, um, but that it, it 00:12:24.105 --> 00:12:30.675 might be slightly lower, uh, like during that, uh, earlier half of the cycle, 00:12:31.365 --> 00:12:34.215 but it wasn't statistically significant. 00:12:34.215 --> 00:12:37.485 There were a ton of flaws when it comes to the methods of the study. 00:12:37.515 --> 00:12:43.995 And so their kind of practical takeaway was that this should be, um, from a 00:12:44.025 --> 00:12:46.335 kind of fitness prescription or athlete. 00:12:46.680 --> 00:12:51.570 Prescription point of view, it should just be individualized and we 00:12:51.570 --> 00:12:56.820 shouldn't be making any sort of blanket statements around during this time. 00:12:56.820 --> 00:13:01.140 You should expect performance to be reduced or you should expect to feel worse 00:13:01.140 --> 00:13:06.390 because the reality is that might be true for some individuals, but, uh, there's 00:13:06.390 --> 00:13:10.860 certainly not enough evidence to suggest that this is sort of across the board, 00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:12.660 something that all women will experience. 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:13.740 Lindsay: Mm-Hmm. 00:13:14.130 --> 00:13:18.480 What are your thoughts of, I know Stacy Sims talks about this a lot, that 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:23.970 it's usually the peak of progesterone, um, where we see moderate levels of 00:13:23.975 --> 00:13:27.750 estradiol and a peak of progesterone, and that's usually when, uh, 00:13:28.230 --> 00:13:31.230 strength we're seeing that lowered. 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:35.410 Lauren: I've never seen any evidence to suggest that that would be the case. 00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:39.220 The assumption that progesterone is somehow. 00:13:39.760 --> 00:13:45.640 Antagonistic or catabolic or going to negatively affect muscle growth really 00:13:45.640 --> 00:13:50.680 has, has never been proven in cell cultural work, culture work in animal 00:13:50.680 --> 00:13:52.480 studies, or certainly not in humans. 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.950 We know very, very little about the influence of progesterone on muscle 00:13:57.070 --> 00:14:02.920 period, and we know a bit more about the influence of the sun hormones 00:14:02.920 --> 00:14:04.120 overall and a bit more about. 00:14:04.545 --> 00:14:10.905 Estradiol from some animal model studies, but in those animal models, they basically 00:14:11.205 --> 00:14:15.735 shut down all hormone production, and then they see that that's problematic for the 00:14:15.735 --> 00:14:18.285 maintenance of muscle and muscle growth. 00:14:18.585 --> 00:14:23.350 So without any of these ovarian hormones, it it, it appears that that's problematic. 00:14:24.325 --> 00:14:28.945 And with the reintroduction of a synthetic hormone, a synthetic 00:14:28.945 --> 00:14:35.005 estradiol, then it appears to kind of recover some of that inability 00:14:35.065 --> 00:14:37.015 to grow or maintain muscle growth. 00:14:37.315 --> 00:14:40.495 But that's a very, very extreme model that's obviously not 00:14:40.915 --> 00:14:45.445 translatable to humans because in the human menstrual cycle, we're 00:14:45.445 --> 00:14:47.695 talking about really short term. 00:14:48.220 --> 00:14:52.750 Fluctuations not a sustained suppression of all of those hormones. 00:14:52.750 --> 00:14:57.550 And even when we think about menopause, that's a gradual decline of hormones. 00:14:57.550 --> 00:14:59.710 It's not sort of an on off switch. 00:14:59.800 --> 00:15:04.630 And so when you're, you're doing a, a rodent study and you're doing a, what we 00:15:04.630 --> 00:15:07.975 would call an ovary, ectomy mo, removing the ovaries, shutting down hormone 00:15:07.975 --> 00:15:09.430 production, that's not something that. 00:15:09.730 --> 00:15:14.470 Is really comparable to humans, but it's mechanistically interesting 00:15:14.470 --> 00:15:19.630 because we can say, well, when the hormones are completely shut down, then 00:15:19.690 --> 00:15:24.250 muscle growth and muscle maintenance is, uh, is obviously not optimized. 00:15:24.880 --> 00:15:24.970 Lindsay: Mm-Hmm. 00:15:26.410 --> 00:15:27.340 That's really interesting. 00:15:27.340 --> 00:15:29.680 I, I wish I had this study in front of me. 00:15:29.800 --> 00:15:35.350 I, um, I can't remember the name of it or anything, but I, I did see one 00:15:35.350 --> 00:15:37.510 study that they did where the first. 00:15:38.470 --> 00:15:43.510 The first half of the menstrual cycle, they noticed that there was better 00:15:43.630 --> 00:15:48.940 growth, muscle growth, and then the second half of the menstrual cycle is 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:51.070 actually where they saw that lowering. 00:15:51.070 --> 00:15:57.040 So their suggestion, or the whomever it was that I was reading, their suggestion 00:15:57.040 --> 00:16:02.680 was, okay, so first half of the cycle, which does include bleeding, um, that you 00:16:02.680 --> 00:16:05.050 should be lifting weights the second half. 00:16:05.665 --> 00:16:07.015 Don't, don't lift weights. 00:16:07.075 --> 00:16:07.855 It's pointless. 00:16:07.855 --> 00:16:08.935 'cause you're not gonna grow. 00:16:09.775 --> 00:16:11.095 Have you heard of that? 00:16:11.455 --> 00:16:11.785 Lauren: Yeah. 00:16:11.785 --> 00:16:13.045 I'm familiar with that study. 00:16:13.105 --> 00:16:18.655 Um, and I, I would love to see it replicated because it's 00:16:18.730 --> 00:16:21.145 a, a very, very bold claim. 00:16:21.625 --> 00:16:26.875 What we know just as fitness professionals is that consistency is important, right. 00:16:27.205 --> 00:16:34.750 And so the idea that this effect or lack thereof is so powerful that it would make 00:16:34.750 --> 00:16:41.650 sense to prescribe one programming, uh, one, one program for half of your cycle, 00:16:41.830 --> 00:16:44.560 and then to not lift for the other half. 00:16:45.235 --> 00:16:50.515 It is essentially if you, if you're just saying 14 days, 14 days, it's cutting 00:16:50.515 --> 00:16:53.155 your resistance training volume in half. 00:16:53.605 --> 00:16:58.195 And what, what we know in about muscle protein synthesis about 00:16:58.195 --> 00:17:03.415 muscle growth is that it's the repeated stimulus that is required 00:17:03.415 --> 00:17:06.505 in order to promote muscle growth. 00:17:06.865 --> 00:17:08.695 And so by just. 00:17:09.325 --> 00:17:13.015 Stopping your training for for half the, the month. 00:17:13.075 --> 00:17:18.595 I just can't see how that would benefit not only muscle 00:17:18.595 --> 00:17:20.215 growth, but also strength gains. 00:17:20.215 --> 00:17:24.475 Because strength performance requires practice, which requires, you know, 00:17:24.505 --> 00:17:31.225 repeat, uh, performance, re repeat, uh, sessions and whatever else you're 00:17:31.225 --> 00:17:34.825 doing for the other half, whether it's yoga or jogging or stretching. 00:17:35.095 --> 00:17:38.335 Um, I mean, it's sort of the same thing if, if then you stop doing that. 00:17:38.575 --> 00:17:40.255 For, for the next two weeks. 00:17:40.465 --> 00:17:42.445 We're not gonna see a lot of progress there too. 00:17:42.445 --> 00:17:47.335 And so my concern about anybody making these recommendations is that the, 00:17:47.545 --> 00:17:54.985 the woman who is implementing them is actually really sacrificing her gains, 00:17:54.985 --> 00:17:57.685 whether it be strength or muscle growth. 00:17:58.080 --> 00:18:02.245 Um, and from a just behavioral perspective, motivational perspective, 00:18:02.245 --> 00:18:06.490 we need some consistency in order to maintain the habits that we're forming. 00:18:06.730 --> 00:18:10.120 Um, and so I, I, I find that that problematic as well. 00:18:10.570 --> 00:18:14.950 I, I don't know anyone who has ever actually attempted to structure their 00:18:14.950 --> 00:18:16.900 program this way, just even anecdotally. 00:18:17.380 --> 00:18:20.710 So I, I couldn't say if there are people who are doing it 00:18:20.710 --> 00:18:22.120 and, and loving the results. 00:18:22.360 --> 00:18:27.760 But, uh, just from what we know about exercise science prescription 00:18:27.760 --> 00:18:30.280 and mu muscle adaptations. 00:18:30.790 --> 00:18:36.040 Um, I, I, I struggle to see why and when that would make sense. 00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:37.420 Lindsay: Yeah. 00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:43.630 Do you find, um, any use to, to trying, well, I have two 00:18:43.635 --> 00:18:44.560 questions that come to mind. 00:18:44.830 --> 00:18:53.855 Do you, how hard is it to actually track and monitor or hormonal changes in women? 00:18:54.370 --> 00:18:58.420 'cause I would imagine that in doing research around this, that that would 00:18:58.425 --> 00:19:00.310 be kind of one of the, the limiting. 00:19:00.730 --> 00:19:01.510 Um, factors. 00:19:01.515 --> 00:19:06.040 That'd be really hard to make sure that we're even monitoring that. 00:19:06.040 --> 00:19:13.810 Well, and the other question is, so is there any point to try to gauge or 00:19:13.810 --> 00:19:18.550 change programming or what are your suggestions after studying all this? 00:19:18.967 --> 00:19:23.677 Lauren: It's incredibly difficult to, to track, um, and to do 00:19:23.677 --> 00:19:26.557 all of this well, which is why. 00:19:26.947 --> 00:19:32.707 I am hesitant to put a lot of stock in some of the papers that are out 00:19:32.707 --> 00:19:37.447 there because not everybody has done what we would say, uh, implemented 00:19:37.447 --> 00:19:42.757 the kind of gold standard methodology to make sure that you are measuring. 00:19:43.312 --> 00:19:47.302 Strength or growth in the phase in which you intend to. 00:19:47.632 --> 00:19:53.752 And what I mean by that is we can discuss a menstrual cycle as 28 days 00:19:53.757 --> 00:19:56.032 with ovulation occurring in the middle. 00:19:56.062 --> 00:20:00.112 But in reality, a normal menstrual cycle can be as short 00:20:00.112 --> 00:20:02.907 as 21 days, as long as 37 days. 00:20:03.232 --> 00:20:06.172 And sometimes people don't have a consistent cycle 00:20:06.172 --> 00:20:07.702 length from one to the next. 00:20:08.437 --> 00:20:12.337 And ovulation doesn't necessarily occur in the middle. 00:20:12.547 --> 00:20:18.967 And so that could mean for some people they have the a, a much shorter first 00:20:18.967 --> 00:20:23.317 phase or follicular phase and a much longer second phase or, or lute phase. 00:20:23.677 --> 00:20:29.617 So when we think about prescribing training around that in the the 28 00:20:29.617 --> 00:20:32.137 day example with equal phase lengths. 00:20:32.647 --> 00:20:34.687 Logistically that's straightforward. 00:20:34.687 --> 00:20:37.747 Whether it makes sense or not is a, is another question. 00:20:37.747 --> 00:20:42.307 But from a logistical perspective, yes, you can say 14 and 14, but what do you 00:20:42.312 --> 00:20:50.527 do with a person who ovulates earlier and only has a 10 day follicular phase 00:20:50.647 --> 00:20:54.127 and then has a 20 day luteal phase? 00:20:54.307 --> 00:20:57.247 Are they, are they only getting a couple of lifting sessions in and then they 00:20:57.252 --> 00:20:59.647 have to stretch for the next 20 days? 00:20:59.947 --> 00:21:01.477 You know, it's, um. 00:21:02.032 --> 00:21:09.682 It's, it's logistically really complicated and very few women actually know what 00:21:09.712 --> 00:21:11.542 menstrual cycle phase they're in. 00:21:11.632 --> 00:21:13.942 We know, okay, this is the first day of your period. 00:21:13.942 --> 00:21:18.472 That's an easy one, but in what happens from from bleeding 00:21:18.472 --> 00:21:20.902 stage to the next menstruation. 00:21:21.517 --> 00:21:25.537 It, there's, there's no real way for you to know unless you are actively 00:21:25.537 --> 00:21:31.027 tracking your ovulation, which you can do, um, by measuring me, sorry, measuring 00:21:31.087 --> 00:21:37.027 luteinizing hormone either with, uh, urine reactive strip or with a blood test. 00:21:37.507 --> 00:21:40.597 People will typically do this, uh, when they're trying to track their fertility. 00:21:41.197 --> 00:21:45.757 And we do this in research because as I said, it's really important 00:21:45.757 --> 00:21:48.577 that, that we know exactly when the. 00:21:49.207 --> 00:21:52.897 When the phases start and finish, meaning we have to know when you're ovulating. 00:21:53.317 --> 00:21:58.837 And if we were to just assume, hey, everyone has a 28 day cycle, everyone 00:21:58.837 --> 00:22:04.207 ovulates on day 14, we would get it really, really wrong in the science. 00:22:04.627 --> 00:22:10.177 And so when we try to translate that to practice for fitness professionals 00:22:10.207 --> 00:22:13.237 or for women who are interested in optimizing their training. 00:22:13.957 --> 00:22:19.327 If they are taking on a program that makes that assumption, it's also 00:22:19.327 --> 00:22:24.217 problematic because you don't actually know that, that you're in the, the phase 00:22:24.217 --> 00:22:26.497 that that program assumes you're in. 00:22:27.277 --> 00:22:32.527 And then of course, we have the blood work to measure hormone levels, which 00:22:32.617 --> 00:22:38.227 in my work we will do at various points throughout the cycle to determine 00:22:38.227 --> 00:22:42.127 that, you know, this hormone profile is really what we would expect. 00:22:42.637 --> 00:22:48.397 During this particular day of your cycle, and as I said before, that is 00:22:48.397 --> 00:22:54.337 highly variable as well between women and also from cycle to cycle in some cases. 00:22:54.637 --> 00:22:58.987 So this is way, way more complex than these types of programs 00:22:58.992 --> 00:22:59.977 would lead you to belief. 00:23:00.277 --> 00:23:00.637 Lindsay: Mm-Hmm. 00:23:00.682 --> 00:23:05.677 Yeah, I um, I was really, really curious 'cause Stacy Sims, I 00:23:05.677 --> 00:23:06.937 feel like was one that was. 00:23:07.972 --> 00:23:13.852 Um, more outspoken about this and how, um, this can be utilized with athletes. 00:23:13.852 --> 00:23:18.712 And, um, and, and I don't wanna make, I'm not making this about her, I'm just 00:23:18.712 --> 00:23:20.842 taking the information that was presented. 00:23:21.322 --> 00:23:26.392 So, um, in taking a course from her, 'cause I'm like, I really want to learn, 00:23:26.392 --> 00:23:28.282 like, why do you believe this way? 00:23:28.282 --> 00:23:28.852 Like, why? 00:23:28.882 --> 00:23:30.442 And is there something to this? 00:23:30.442 --> 00:23:31.852 Can I learn something from this? 00:23:32.482 --> 00:23:38.912 And the idea was that, post ovulation, the degradation of the, the follicle is 00:23:38.912 --> 00:23:41.312 what stimulates the rise in progesterone. 00:23:41.972 --> 00:23:46.912 And then the high progesterone, with the, the lower estradiol is 00:23:46.912 --> 00:23:51.232 actually what would, would make an athlete or, you know, strength, 00:23:51.442 --> 00:23:54.082 uh, training athlete feel weaker. 00:23:54.742 --> 00:23:58.487 And I just thought to myself, but what about those that, that, I mean. 00:23:59.122 --> 00:24:02.422 When you have anovulatory cycles, when you're not ovulating. 00:24:02.422 --> 00:24:04.072 So then does that not all happen? 00:24:04.222 --> 00:24:09.112 And then how do you know that, that there's just, just so much around this? 00:24:10.132 --> 00:24:17.932 Why can't we just say, Hey, when you don't feel as as recovered, as strong, 00:24:18.382 --> 00:24:22.342 and you just listen to your body and take it down the notch, like why do 00:24:22.342 --> 00:24:25.312 we have to make it so complicated? 00:24:28.297 --> 00:24:29.827 I don't knowledge of your thoughts on that to Stacy 00:24:29.827 --> 00:24:31.957 Lauren: Sims has I, I don't know her personally. 00:24:32.257 --> 00:24:38.257 Um, I, I am, I know that she has a PhD, but to my knowledge, she hasn't 00:24:38.257 --> 00:24:39.907 really done research in this area. 00:24:39.912 --> 00:24:44.497 She's published review papers, meaning she's made commentaries on, on the topic. 00:24:44.767 --> 00:24:49.927 But I'm not aware of any actual study that she's done that would. 00:24:51.487 --> 00:24:59.017 Really lend to expertise in this area that would really lend to the understanding of 00:24:59.107 --> 00:25:03.757 this tremendous level of inter-individual variability that I described. 00:25:04.327 --> 00:25:12.667 And so I, I, I would love to know exactly, you know, where that is coming from. 00:25:13.057 --> 00:25:17.437 But to your question, can't we just say, you know, leave it to the individual. 00:25:17.947 --> 00:25:19.297 I think that. 00:25:20.237 --> 00:25:24.107 Especially in fitness and nutrition and in the supplement world and all of it, right? 00:25:24.377 --> 00:25:30.167 It, you get more attention if you say, I have the way and I, and I'm 00:25:30.172 --> 00:25:33.647 gonna give you the answer, and you should be doing something different. 00:25:33.887 --> 00:25:37.997 Instead of being the person who says, you know what, it probably doesn't matter. 00:25:38.777 --> 00:25:40.877 People wanna hear, yes, it matters. 00:25:40.877 --> 00:25:43.997 And this is how, how you can optimize it and this is how you 00:25:43.997 --> 00:25:48.647 can get that extra, um, fat loss or muscle growth or what have you. 00:25:48.857 --> 00:25:50.627 People don't wanna hear, you know what, like. 00:25:51.167 --> 00:25:53.447 You're probably gonna get the same results either way. 00:25:53.477 --> 00:25:54.137 Don't worry about it. 00:25:54.527 --> 00:25:56.357 Um, and that's how programs sell. 00:25:56.357 --> 00:25:58.007 That's how supplements sell. 00:25:58.007 --> 00:26:00.527 That's how diets become popularized. 00:26:00.617 --> 00:26:02.447 That's just sort of the nature of the business. 00:26:03.377 --> 00:26:04.337 Lindsay: It is so true. 00:26:04.337 --> 00:26:10.877 Just teaching, um, habits and just instilling those habits, making 00:26:10.877 --> 00:26:13.637 programming, you know, enjoyable. 00:26:14.087 --> 00:26:16.817 And depending on your goal, you might have to be. 00:26:16.877 --> 00:26:18.257 And, how advanced you are. 00:26:18.257 --> 00:26:23.987 You, you may have to optimize some things here and there, but maybe you don't, 00:26:24.047 --> 00:26:26.357 maybe you just wanna lose five, 10 pounds. 00:26:26.357 --> 00:26:29.087 And it's like, do you know what the optimization of your training 00:26:29.087 --> 00:26:33.377 programs to your cycle really doesn't matter for, for you and your goal? 00:26:33.827 --> 00:26:34.217 Right. 00:26:34.247 --> 00:26:36.707 So it's, it's so interesting. 00:26:37.037 --> 00:26:39.737 I think you nailed it with social media right there. 00:26:39.737 --> 00:26:42.137 It has, definitely has, its its pros and cons. 00:26:42.587 --> 00:26:44.777 I think one thing that's really hard too. 00:26:45.557 --> 00:26:51.047 Because I, I have my beliefs around this, um, this subject that, like I just said, 00:26:51.107 --> 00:26:52.667 why can't we just listen to our body? 00:26:52.717 --> 00:26:57.517 And sometimes too, I've noticed with individuals when they're like, oh 00:26:57.517 --> 00:27:02.117 yeah, I went in and this time my cycle was a little different and I 00:27:02.122 --> 00:27:03.737 noticed I was weaker at this point. 00:27:04.157 --> 00:27:09.392 I'm like, but do you realize how many variables go into how you 00:27:09.392 --> 00:27:11.372 go walk into a training session. 00:27:11.762 --> 00:27:13.412 Was your sleep crappy? 00:27:13.412 --> 00:27:18.212 Was your nutrition crappy was, and there's so plethora of things. 00:27:18.242 --> 00:27:22.592 Were you able to recover well enough from your last training about like, 00:27:23.012 --> 00:27:29.402 there are so many things that I feel like how can we even know if we're just 00:27:29.402 --> 00:27:34.892 going off of our feeling of, well, I'm a little bit tired, so my suggestion 00:27:34.892 --> 00:27:36.062 to people has always been well. 00:27:36.362 --> 00:27:40.292 If I'm a little bit tired because I didn't get enough sleep, or my nutrition 00:27:40.292 --> 00:27:45.662 sucked, or recovery was somehow impaired, I'm gonna treat it the same way as if, 00:27:46.052 --> 00:27:48.902 well, around the same time of my cycle. 00:27:48.902 --> 00:27:50.702 I always feel sluggish. 00:27:51.452 --> 00:27:52.682 I'm gonna listen to my body. 00:27:52.682 --> 00:27:58.142 I want to keep the the habit and the routine of showing up for myself that 00:27:58.142 --> 00:28:00.842 day, but I'm not going to be doing a pr. 00:28:00.872 --> 00:28:04.802 Maybe I'm just going in and just checking it off that day. 00:28:05.507 --> 00:28:05.807 Right. 00:28:05.807 --> 00:28:10.007 I, I just, I, another thing though that I wanted to bring up was, 00:28:10.157 --> 00:28:15.797 it's really hard on social media when men speak on these subjects. 00:28:16.937 --> 00:28:22.337 A lot of times women get very, very angry when they hear from men. 00:28:22.697 --> 00:28:24.497 Like, it doesn't matter. 00:28:24.977 --> 00:28:29.267 Just listen to your body and they can get pretty, 00:28:29.807 --> 00:28:35.927 outraged over that, that no, we only need to hear about this from, from women. 00:28:36.257 --> 00:28:39.677 Not sure why I brought that up, but it was just a, a post from men know, 00:28:39.677 --> 00:28:44.297 came up where he shared a study saying, you know, this meta-analysis 00:28:44.297 --> 00:28:48.737 is showing that in the end it really, it's not impacting women like we think. 00:28:49.337 --> 00:28:53.207 And there was some outrage on, on that post. 00:28:53.962 --> 00:28:59.662 Lauren: I think you nailed it in terms of it's really difficult to attribute, 00:28:59.722 --> 00:29:05.782 you know, a particular session or, or even a month of programming 00:29:05.787 --> 00:29:09.292 and progress to just your cycle. 00:29:09.412 --> 00:29:13.372 Um, because as, as you said, there are so many variables 00:29:13.372 --> 00:29:16.072 that are going to influence. 00:29:16.687 --> 00:29:19.117 How you feel day to day walking into the gym. 00:29:19.417 --> 00:29:23.557 And so I think the, the one thing that we might. 00:29:23.902 --> 00:29:28.462 Say is consistent for some individuals is that they have pretty 00:29:28.462 --> 00:29:31.612 regular, uh, menstrual symptoms. 00:29:31.672 --> 00:29:35.572 So maybe on it's the day before I get my period, or it's the first day of my 00:29:35.572 --> 00:29:39.712 period, for some people it's longer, but typically it's one or two days and 00:29:39.922 --> 00:29:41.932 that it's kind of clockwork for them. 00:29:41.937 --> 00:29:43.432 Like, I have terrible, terrible cramps. 00:29:43.432 --> 00:29:44.332 I don't wanna train. 00:29:44.602 --> 00:29:46.552 Um, and I say. 00:29:46.972 --> 00:29:47.602 Fine. 00:29:47.782 --> 00:29:51.562 Uh, you know, go for a walk or don't go to the gym that day. 00:29:52.042 --> 00:29:57.742 Um, I think that is a totally different conversation than overhauling your 00:29:57.742 --> 00:30:02.572 whole program to accommodate, you know, these sort of potential. 00:30:03.037 --> 00:30:06.517 Influences of these hormone profiles that you're not even measuring, 00:30:06.697 --> 00:30:11.287 but that we're talking one session when we say this is two weeks, the 00:30:11.287 --> 00:30:15.637 influence of, of, you know, not lifting for two weeks is going to matter. 00:30:15.787 --> 00:30:21.817 The influence of, of skipping or maybe decreasing the volume or i I swapping 00:30:21.817 --> 00:30:25.237 out some exercises or whatever it is for one or two sessions, isn't 00:30:25.237 --> 00:30:29.737 going to have this huge result, uh, effect on, on your results. 00:30:30.622 --> 00:30:37.012 As far as men speaking out on this, I as a scientist, I don't 00:30:37.072 --> 00:30:40.192 really understand the vitriol. 00:30:40.372 --> 00:30:47.152 Um, I think that you can be a scientist who studies a variety of things that 00:30:47.157 --> 00:30:52.822 influence a variety of populations, um, with a variety of ailments, uh, and. 00:30:53.124 --> 00:30:55.284 You're an expert because you're an expert. 00:30:55.314 --> 00:30:58.974 I have problem with people who are not experts speaking out on this. 00:30:59.304 --> 00:30:59.394 Mm-Hmm. 00:30:59.634 --> 00:31:04.039 Um, but you don't hear that when it's somebody speaking about, 00:31:04.794 --> 00:31:08.784 you know, exercise for elderly individuals and you don't hear people 00:31:08.784 --> 00:31:10.074 being like, you're not elderly. 00:31:10.074 --> 00:31:13.554 How dare you give recommendations for that population? 00:31:13.794 --> 00:31:16.914 Uh, or people who do research in kids, you're not a child. 00:31:16.914 --> 00:31:20.724 How dare you give recommendations for, so, I, I, I really, I 00:31:20.729 --> 00:31:21.984 don't get it to be honest. 00:31:22.944 --> 00:31:23.394 Lindsay: Yeah. 00:31:24.159 --> 00:31:25.779 Yeah, it is pretty wild. 00:31:25.809 --> 00:31:29.619 Um, I got sadly pulled into that, that conversation with men. 00:31:29.769 --> 00:31:33.909 'cause I'm like, well, I'm a trainer and I just, this is, this is my takeaway and 00:31:33.909 --> 00:31:37.389 I'm a woman and so can I speak on this? 00:31:37.389 --> 00:31:41.589 But then I was told I couldn't because, um, yeah, yeah. 00:31:41.594 --> 00:31:42.669 Just women attacked. 00:31:42.669 --> 00:31:43.689 Well, you don't agree with me. 00:31:43.689 --> 00:31:44.919 You can't speak on it either. 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:46.839 It was just really, really funny. 00:31:47.259 --> 00:31:48.114 It is really, really funny. 00:31:48.114 --> 00:31:48.519 There are people 00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:51.309 Lauren: to, you know, to your point though, there are people who take that, 00:31:51.459 --> 00:31:54.144 take this really personally, or Mm-Hmm. 00:31:54.384 --> 00:32:00.774 They have extremely strong feelings about it, and I think I, I, I don't really 00:32:00.774 --> 00:32:04.404 understand why, except that that's just sort of the nature of the internet. 00:32:04.404 --> 00:32:06.744 People kind of form these. 00:32:07.404 --> 00:32:11.274 Really strong communities around doing something right? 00:32:11.274 --> 00:32:15.534 Like yeah, if you're on the ketogenic diet, then you're part of this, this 00:32:15.534 --> 00:32:21.264 community, and you identify deeply as being somebody who is a fan of that diet. 00:32:21.269 --> 00:32:23.964 And so perhaps this is sort of similar to that, 00:32:24.250 --> 00:32:26.320 Lindsay: That that is an excellent point. 00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:26.980 We really do. 00:32:26.980 --> 00:32:30.520 We choose our teams and then it doesn't matter if our team is 00:32:30.520 --> 00:32:32.920 just like done a personal foul. 00:32:33.295 --> 00:32:34.405 We're like, what? 00:32:34.435 --> 00:32:35.425 What's wrong with you ref? 00:32:35.425 --> 00:32:35.695 Right. 00:32:35.695 --> 00:32:38.965 We just have our, or our political teams or whatever. 00:32:38.965 --> 00:32:39.745 It doesn't matter. 00:32:39.745 --> 00:32:41.065 We'll, we'll look the other way. 00:32:41.070 --> 00:32:42.055 It is kind of funny. 00:32:42.055 --> 00:32:45.025 That is very, very much human nature. 00:32:45.325 --> 00:32:52.755 I, I was very, very intrigued that you also did studies on, and, you really 00:32:52.755 --> 00:32:57.525 looked into volume as far as for women. 00:32:58.530 --> 00:33:00.510 And I really wanna talk about that. 00:33:01.320 --> 00:33:03.420 Do I have my opinions on this? 00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:06.240 And I'm just so curious what yours are, uh, and what 00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:07.590 you've seen in the literature. 00:33:07.620 --> 00:33:11.190 'cause usually when we're talking about volume for hypertrophy, 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:18.330 people will always say, well, 10 to 20 sets a week is, is perfect. 00:33:18.390 --> 00:33:21.600 That's usually the general rule that's kind of thrown out there. 00:33:22.485 --> 00:33:24.420 Now, do you find that that's true? 00:33:24.420 --> 00:33:26.520 Do you find that that's different for women? 00:33:26.520 --> 00:33:27.750 What are your thoughts on this? 00:33:27.750 --> 00:33:28.530 I'm really curious. 00:33:29.520 --> 00:33:34.290 Lauren: At the time there, volume was a really hot topic in general, and people 00:33:34.290 --> 00:33:38.610 were, were really trying to kind of push the threshold and there was this 00:33:38.610 --> 00:33:45.615 theoretical model that, you know, um, you, you get sort of increased benefits 00:33:45.615 --> 00:33:47.805 on, on, uh, up to a certain point. 00:33:47.805 --> 00:33:50.475 And then theoretically there has to be a point where you're doing way too 00:33:50.475 --> 00:33:53.925 much and then so maybe it's sort of eventually kind of an inverted u or 00:33:53.925 --> 00:33:58.155 eventually there's a plateau and you can't benefit from any more volume. 00:33:58.575 --> 00:34:04.125 But they really weren't doing this in, in women, and so I compared, 00:34:05.035 --> 00:34:12.085 there was a group doing two sets of five exercises three times a week. 00:34:12.655 --> 00:34:17.965 And it, this was all a lower body training study, so it was a squat, a 00:34:18.235 --> 00:34:25.015 stiff leg deadlift, a hip thrust, a leg extension, leg curl, and then so 00:34:25.315 --> 00:34:29.005 two sets of each of those three times a week versus five sets of each of 00:34:29.005 --> 00:34:31.465 those exercises three times a week. 00:34:32.155 --> 00:34:34.915 And there were no differences in hypertrophy or strength. 00:34:35.665 --> 00:34:36.055 And 00:34:36.835 --> 00:34:37.795 Lindsay: Really, how long was that? 00:34:38.245 --> 00:34:39.895 Lauren: This was over 10 weeks. 00:34:40.885 --> 00:34:41.785 Lindsay: No way. 00:34:41.785 --> 00:34:43.375 And this was only in women. 00:34:43.705 --> 00:34:44.035 Lauren: Mm-Hmm. 00:34:44.755 --> 00:34:49.225 Lindsay: Um, were things taken to failure or how close were they? 00:34:49.225 --> 00:34:51.835 Was this monitored by by someone? 00:34:51.865 --> 00:34:53.185 Like, I'm so curious. 00:34:53.545 --> 00:34:53.815 Lauren: Yeah. 00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:55.285 We had a full team of people. 00:34:55.285 --> 00:35:00.595 Every, every workout was, uh, monitored by one of the, the coaches who was a, 00:35:00.595 --> 00:35:02.365 you know, research assistant for me. 00:35:02.725 --> 00:35:09.895 Um, and the, the sets were taken to, to reps from failure. 00:35:10.405 --> 00:35:13.525 Or two reps in reserve, if you wanna use that terminology. 00:35:13.585 --> 00:35:17.905 And we did before and after strength testing, before and after 00:35:17.905 --> 00:35:22.795 ultrasound hypertrophy of the quads, hamstrings, and glutes. 00:35:23.545 --> 00:35:30.145 And the, the lower volume group was putting in about 40 minutes per 00:35:30.145 --> 00:35:31.975 workout, you know, three times a week. 00:35:31.975 --> 00:35:36.295 And the high volume group was taking 90 minutes plus. 00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:36.355 Yeah. 00:35:36.355 --> 00:35:36.805 Lindsay: Easily. 00:35:37.075 --> 00:35:41.605 Lauren: And so it, you know, it was really interesting to then see, 00:35:41.695 --> 00:35:45.775 I know the, the rest periods were standardized to, um, two minutes per, 00:35:45.865 --> 00:35:47.125 uh, in between sets and all that. 00:35:47.425 --> 00:35:52.945 But it was really interesting to see how much more time, um, that the high 00:35:52.945 --> 00:35:55.165 volume group was spending in the gym for. 00:35:55.555 --> 00:35:58.915 Like, at least in my results, not a lot of reward. 00:35:59.335 --> 00:36:03.595 Lindsay: Yeah, that's so fascinating because I feel like we keep seeing 00:36:03.600 --> 00:36:05.845 people test the limits of volume, right? 00:36:05.845 --> 00:36:11.755 I mean, yeah, we, we saw in, in triceps and quads, I mean the, what was it, 56 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:16.195 sets or for quads or something outrageous. 00:36:16.585 --> 00:36:20.035 Um, I think the tricep one that I'm thinking of, a study that I'm 00:36:20.125 --> 00:36:24.475 thinking of was, was it in the thirties or No, it was up to 30. 00:36:24.850 --> 00:36:26.860 That's, that sounds 00:36:26.860 --> 00:36:27.130 Lauren: right. 00:36:27.130 --> 00:36:27.460 Yeah. 00:36:28.750 --> 00:36:33.370 Lindsay: And from what they saw, I think that they, it was predominantly 00:36:33.375 --> 00:36:39.250 men doing it, and from what they saw was that, um, they were able to squeeze 00:36:39.250 --> 00:36:43.060 out a, a little bit more hypertrophy. 00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:48.970 Um, now I haven't been suggesting people do 56 sets, but I don't think anybody 00:36:48.970 --> 00:36:51.910 took, went away thinking that, but. 00:36:53.140 --> 00:36:57.790 With what you just barely shared and what we're kind of now seeing come out. 00:36:58.390 --> 00:37:01.630 Um, have you changed your mind on volume? 00:37:01.630 --> 00:37:04.390 Like what is your overall thought as far as volume in women 00:37:05.620 --> 00:37:10.270 Lauren: from just working with women and people in general, regardless of sex? 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:17.260 I find that the volume people can tolerate is really, uh, different between people. 00:37:17.260 --> 00:37:20.350 There are some people who feel like I get so beat up if I. 00:37:21.220 --> 00:37:26.410 Do more than three sessions a week, or I, I can't squat more than once a 00:37:26.410 --> 00:37:28.930 week, or I can't deadlift more than once a week without starting to get some 00:37:28.930 --> 00:37:30.940 kind of nagging pain here and there. 00:37:31.180 --> 00:37:36.490 And then I've trained people who could wanted to do six sessions and recovered, 00:37:36.490 --> 00:37:40.360 and they could squat three times a week and they could do, you know, um, 00:37:40.390 --> 00:37:42.610 four sets, five sets of every exercise. 00:37:42.610 --> 00:37:45.070 And they just had that level of recoverability. 00:37:45.070 --> 00:37:49.600 And so I think when it comes to, you know, you as an individual trying to. 00:37:50.005 --> 00:37:53.755 Put together your program or if you're somebody who's coaching other people 00:37:53.755 --> 00:37:57.445 and, and trying to, um, put together or adjust their program over time. 00:37:58.315 --> 00:38:00.835 Getting feedback consistently is really important. 00:38:01.165 --> 00:38:06.535 Monitoring the, the, the strength gains is another proxy for, you know, how they're 00:38:06.565 --> 00:38:08.065 progressing and how they're recovering. 00:38:08.125 --> 00:38:12.625 And then getting feedback on things like, uh, in program enjoyment, stress 00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:17.755 levels, sleep, um, and, and also, you know, for if you can monitor their 00:38:17.755 --> 00:38:22.075 nutrition, if that's relevant, then taking all of that into account. 00:38:22.375 --> 00:38:27.355 And making sure that you are working with them and adapting along the way 00:38:27.415 --> 00:38:31.735 to help them reach their goals in a way that's sustainable and also enjoyable. 00:38:31.735 --> 00:38:37.435 Because I think that sometimes we get in this phase of, you know, kind of we're 00:38:37.435 --> 00:38:40.975 in a fitness craze and we're really trying to optimize everything and this 00:38:40.975 --> 00:38:42.355 is the most important thing to us. 00:38:42.355 --> 00:38:45.025 And then we get into a slightly different phase of life. 00:38:45.025 --> 00:38:45.115 Mm-Hmm. 00:38:45.115 --> 00:38:47.995 Where we realize, you know what, fitness is really important to me. 00:38:47.995 --> 00:38:50.275 It's always gonna be part of my life, but. 00:38:50.830 --> 00:38:55.660 My whole day to day isn't spent thinking about my macros or my program 00:38:55.660 --> 00:38:57.730 or what I'm doing at the gym later. 00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:01.960 And so it's at that point that we wanna make sure people don't just 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:04.390 stop lifting or stop exercising. 00:39:04.570 --> 00:39:04.660 Mm-Hmm. 00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:11.500 We want to work with them to, to create kind of a more moderate, sustainable 00:39:11.650 --> 00:39:15.850 program so that they're still getting the benefits of, uh, lifting without feeling 00:39:15.850 --> 00:39:17.920 like this all or nothing mentality. 00:39:18.730 --> 00:39:18.850 Lindsay: Yeah. 00:39:19.435 --> 00:39:24.565 I, um, I also think that there's something to exercise selection 00:39:24.565 --> 00:39:26.455 as far as volume as well for sure. 00:39:26.455 --> 00:39:29.905 Like if people are overloading in that, in that stretch, that lengthened 00:39:29.995 --> 00:39:34.465 position, and they're just like, all of their exercises are just in that 00:39:34.495 --> 00:39:38.785 lengthened, they may find that the amount of volume, the amount of sets 00:39:38.785 --> 00:39:41.545 that they can do are not near as many. 00:39:41.545 --> 00:39:43.945 'cause I'll watch, um, like bikini competitors. 00:39:43.945 --> 00:39:46.645 I have a, a few friends that are bikini competitors. 00:39:47.095 --> 00:39:50.065 And I'll watch them and their, their, their competitor friends, 00:39:50.755 --> 00:39:52.645 just two hours at the gym. 00:39:53.425 --> 00:39:58.915 But they're doing so much like short contracted position work that 00:39:58.915 --> 00:40:01.195 I'm like, yeah, they can do that. 00:40:01.195 --> 00:40:05.845 And they can handle the volume really well because I feel like those, those types 00:40:05.845 --> 00:40:12.355 of, um, exercises are really, uh, popular for, for females like kickbacks, you know? 00:40:12.355 --> 00:40:12.445 Mm-Hmm. 00:40:12.685 --> 00:40:16.225 We're really just working the shorten that you can't compare a kickback. 00:40:16.555 --> 00:40:20.545 And the amount of recovery time that's needed compared to a squat, right? 00:40:20.635 --> 00:40:21.265 Absolutely. 00:40:21.295 --> 00:40:21.565 Yep. 00:40:21.565 --> 00:40:22.915 Or a leg press even. 00:40:22.975 --> 00:40:28.705 Like, you just can't, and so it just depends too on the exercises 00:40:28.705 --> 00:40:31.135 that an individual is drawn to. 00:40:32.335 --> 00:40:36.055 Lauren: Yeah, I, I think you make an excellent point and there is a lot of, 00:40:36.355 --> 00:40:41.605 of kind of glute isolation ish exercises that you can do with bands or cables that 00:40:41.605 --> 00:40:43.435 are, are fairly easy to recover from. 00:40:43.435 --> 00:40:44.785 I'd say the same thing with. 00:40:45.145 --> 00:40:50.005 With dealt, if you're doing a lot of lateral raises or maybe face pulls, 00:40:50.065 --> 00:40:57.805 um, and it, but when you think about compound exercises that are not, that 00:40:57.805 --> 00:40:59.485 are taxing multiple muscle groups. 00:40:59.515 --> 00:40:59.605 Mm-hmm. 00:40:59.935 --> 00:41:00.505 And. 00:41:00.955 --> 00:41:02.155 Joints as well. 00:41:02.455 --> 00:41:05.665 Uh, you know, even like if you're doing a barbell squat, it, it's even 00:41:05.725 --> 00:41:09.265 the stabilization of the bar using the upper body that is, um, and using the 00:41:09.265 --> 00:41:11.005 spinal erectors that that's taxing. 00:41:11.005 --> 00:41:15.025 So it's a kind of a full, uh, system challenge there. 00:41:15.030 --> 00:41:19.315 And so of course that's going to be more fatiguing and if you try to do 00:41:19.705 --> 00:41:24.175 set after set, after set after set, eventually form is going to start 00:41:24.175 --> 00:41:30.730 to weaken and, and potentially fail, and then your, uh, possibility for 00:41:30.730 --> 00:41:32.590 injury is going to start to increase. 00:41:32.590 --> 00:41:34.180 And so I think we need to be really careful there. 00:41:34.180 --> 00:41:34.810 But you're right. 00:41:34.870 --> 00:41:39.310 You know, when we talk about co the comparing this type of set to 00:41:39.310 --> 00:41:40.960 another set and we're calling it. 00:41:41.170 --> 00:41:45.520 You know, a lower body set or a set for your glutes, um, even doing a, 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:50.560 a really heavy barbell hip thrust is going to take a, a bigger toll than 00:41:50.680 --> 00:41:53.405 doing a, a kickback or, or doing Mm-Hmm. 00:41:53.490 --> 00:41:56.020 A abduction machine, for example. 00:41:56.440 --> 00:41:56.920 Lindsay: Yeah. 00:41:57.040 --> 00:41:57.910 Yeah, exactly. 00:41:58.330 --> 00:42:02.500 I'm curious, what are your thoughts about the differences in rest 00:42:02.500 --> 00:42:06.430 times for men versus, uh, women? 00:42:07.495 --> 00:42:11.275 Lauren: I think that when we look at the research as a whole, there really 00:42:11.275 --> 00:42:18.115 isn't enough there to say clearly women recover faster and can either 00:42:18.205 --> 00:42:20.485 rest shorter or train more frequently. 00:42:20.490 --> 00:42:22.675 That's another argument that I'll see that that's made. 00:42:22.975 --> 00:42:29.245 Um, I, I think when we look at sort of men as a whole and women as a 00:42:29.245 --> 00:42:31.675 whole, we try to make these broad. 00:42:32.650 --> 00:42:35.500 Arguments or, or suggestions about sex-based differences. 00:42:35.560 --> 00:42:38.230 And it's really similar to what I was saying before about the 00:42:38.230 --> 00:42:41.440 the menstrual cycle stuff and how much, uh, inter-individual 00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:43.330 variability there is on that front. 00:42:43.690 --> 00:42:48.910 Same goes for, for just people across the board, regardless of sex. 00:42:48.940 --> 00:42:54.580 We see higher and lower responders, both men and women in every study with 00:42:54.585 --> 00:42:57.400 every outcome that, that we measure. 00:42:57.790 --> 00:42:59.890 And so my take. 00:43:00.595 --> 00:43:04.315 From what I know about the science and also what I know from working with a 00:43:04.315 --> 00:43:10.375 lot of people, uh, in, in a coaching capacity, is that it's, it doesn't 00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:17.605 really help the, the fitness consumer nor the coach to say, this is what you 00:43:17.605 --> 00:43:19.495 do for men and this is what you do. 00:43:19.495 --> 00:43:24.950 For women, it's much more, uh, beneficial to say, you know what we're gonna expect. 00:43:25.675 --> 00:43:28.105 A, a large amount of variability. 00:43:28.285 --> 00:43:32.635 Um, and maybe there's something there for, for women versus men, 00:43:32.635 --> 00:43:34.555 and so test the waters there. 00:43:34.555 --> 00:43:39.985 Be aware that perhaps they'll be able to, to train more frequently or, or 00:43:39.985 --> 00:43:44.635 have, but I just wouldn't make that assumption because there the literature 00:43:44.635 --> 00:43:51.565 isn't strong enough to, to make that claim and I think it can set up, 00:43:51.940 --> 00:43:55.120 they coach to walk into the coach-client relationships with 00:43:55.120 --> 00:43:58.090 a set of assumptions about that individual based on their biological 00:43:58.090 --> 00:44:00.100 sex, which isn't actually helpful. 00:44:00.100 --> 00:44:03.100 You'd rather you'd be better off walking in with a blank slate and just working 00:44:03.100 --> 00:44:05.200 with that individual as a whole person. 00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:07.720 Lindsay: That is so powerful. 00:44:07.780 --> 00:44:08.710 That is so powerful. 00:44:08.980 --> 00:44:14.650 This past week I had, um, I don't take one-on-one clients anymore. 00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:17.230 I've moved to, um, just. 00:44:17.740 --> 00:44:22.930 Delivering training programs on my app, but I have a community where we talk 00:44:22.930 --> 00:44:29.410 through a bunch of things and I had a woman reach out saying that after her, 00:44:29.890 --> 00:44:34.930 I can't remember if it was a squat or an RDL, but she's like, I, I feel like 00:44:34.935 --> 00:44:38.200 I need three, four minutes of rest. 00:44:38.890 --> 00:44:42.550 And you know, if somebody was just like, Nope, you only need two minutes. 00:44:42.700 --> 00:44:44.740 The literature says you only need two minutes. 00:44:45.535 --> 00:44:48.985 To me, I was like, oh, well there's, there might be a few things we can 00:44:48.985 --> 00:44:52.285 do to like help your recovery intro. 00:44:52.285 --> 00:44:57.265 Like maybe we should introduce like some more cardio if you're not doing any, or, 00:44:57.595 --> 00:45:02.095 um, or if you don't have time for that, then take that extra time that you need. 00:45:02.365 --> 00:45:05.665 And then I have other women on the other side saying, Lindsay, it's 00:45:05.665 --> 00:45:09.205 a two minute rest, but I'm, I'm feeling really good at 90 seconds. 00:45:09.355 --> 00:45:10.165 I'm like, well, yeah. 00:45:10.225 --> 00:45:13.975 Then if you feel really good and you feel like your strength isn't impacted. 00:45:14.560 --> 00:45:19.180 By starting a little bit earlier, and I think we just need to get better, maybe 00:45:19.330 --> 00:45:25.570 as coaches of teaching the principles and then allowing people that flexibility. 00:45:26.020 --> 00:45:27.730 I think that will be really freeing. 00:45:27.820 --> 00:45:29.140 I don't know what your thoughts are on that. 00:45:29.345 --> 00:45:33.370 Lauren: I, I think that's really key and that applies sort of across the 00:45:33.370 --> 00:45:38.260 board because if we can, if we can train people or people can train themselves 00:45:38.260 --> 00:45:40.660 to kind of auto-regulate and say. 00:45:41.230 --> 00:45:45.010 Whether it's how you feel walking into the gym that day or how you feel 00:45:45.010 --> 00:45:50.170 after that set, you know, then we, we don't even need to worry about setting 00:45:50.170 --> 00:45:52.480 the timer for the, the rest period. 00:45:52.540 --> 00:45:58.510 We can just say, I'm doing four sets of squats and I, I'm, I'm in tune 00:45:58.570 --> 00:46:03.490 with my body to know when I'm about ready to go and I'm not going to force 00:46:03.490 --> 00:46:09.610 myself, to, to go, you know, to sit around waiting if I feel ready or to 00:46:09.610 --> 00:46:12.610 go before I, I feel really recovered. 00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:18.940 And I mean, the only exception to that would be if, if you were, um, in doing 00:46:18.940 --> 00:46:23.440 some sort of lifting competition that required a, a finite amount of rest. 00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:26.710 But I think in general, in a, in a lifting session and just in your kind 00:46:26.710 --> 00:46:33.790 of fitness world as a whole, it's really valuable to, to be able to put the. 00:46:34.240 --> 00:46:40.030 The rules down and say, I've been doing this long enough, I can trust myself. 00:46:40.150 --> 00:46:42.910 Uh, I think it's really similar with people who are tracking 00:46:42.910 --> 00:46:44.920 their macros for years. 00:46:44.925 --> 00:46:47.080 And I'm like, you've been doing this long enough. 00:46:47.290 --> 00:46:50.530 You know what 20 pound, 20 grams of protein looks like? 00:46:50.530 --> 00:46:50.531 Mm-Hmm. 00:46:50.710 --> 00:46:55.330 You know what, uh, a half a cup of looks like you, you're, you don't, 00:46:55.330 --> 00:46:59.050 you don't necessarily need the crutch of the, the tracking app. 00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:02.880 Because you've taken the knowledge and the tools you need to implement 00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:04.470 them into your everyday life. 00:47:05.490 --> 00:47:07.290 Lindsay: Yes, 100%. 00:47:07.350 --> 00:47:08.940 And I love that you call it a crutch too. 00:47:08.970 --> 00:47:11.280 'cause I do, I say that all the time. 00:47:11.285 --> 00:47:16.980 I'm like, if you feel bound to it after years and years, this is no longer a tool. 00:47:16.985 --> 00:47:18.090 This is a crutch. 00:47:18.660 --> 00:47:18.720 Yeah. 00:47:18.720 --> 00:47:23.070 And you've gotta learn to trust yourself and step away from these things. 00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:24.780 Uh, yeah. 00:47:24.810 --> 00:47:27.240 It's, and same goes, I feel like. 00:47:27.565 --> 00:47:28.435 In the gym. 00:47:28.675 --> 00:47:33.925 It's really funny because I feel like, um, when you first get into fitness, 00:47:34.675 --> 00:47:35.935 you have no idea what you're doing. 00:47:36.025 --> 00:47:37.975 Well, I didn't, maybe I should speak to them. 00:47:38.665 --> 00:47:40.645 You probably did Lauren, but I didn't. 00:47:41.035 --> 00:47:47.485 Um, and I got caught in, I like into the extremes and I got really pulled 00:47:47.485 --> 00:47:50.935 into, you have to do X, Y, and Z. 00:47:51.235 --> 00:47:54.205 And I got so pulled into that extreme. 00:47:54.205 --> 00:47:54.265 I. 00:47:54.745 --> 00:47:58.285 And then you kind of see that no, you actually don't have to. 00:47:58.315 --> 00:48:01.315 You, you just swing from one pendulum, like one side of the 00:48:01.315 --> 00:48:02.275 pendulum to the other, right? 00:48:02.665 --> 00:48:06.775 You are not working at all to optimizing every tiny little thing, and then 00:48:06.775 --> 00:48:11.005 you kind of come back in the middle where wisdom lies, I feel like, and 00:48:11.005 --> 00:48:15.865 you realize, no, those, some things matter more than others, but probably 00:48:15.865 --> 00:48:20.185 not even as much as I, I think that they do consistency over time. 00:48:20.575 --> 00:48:23.455 Learning to use the tool wisely for my needs. 00:48:24.115 --> 00:48:28.735 My time period, my goals, like in the end, I feel like that's where 00:48:28.855 --> 00:48:32.035 like that's a sweet spot once you've gotten there in fitness. 00:48:32.575 --> 00:48:33.235 I feel like I, 00:48:33.235 --> 00:48:37.105 Lauren: I think we all kind of experience some kind of journey like that. 00:48:37.225 --> 00:48:39.925 Um, and that is the goal. 00:48:39.925 --> 00:48:45.265 And then sustainability again, because it's just, you're not going to be 00:48:45.325 --> 00:48:50.485 that into every little or, or just able to prioritize every little thing. 00:48:50.515 --> 00:48:50.935 Um. 00:48:51.710 --> 00:48:53.540 That, that's going to optimize your results. 00:48:53.540 --> 00:48:56.030 Or maybe you're not even doing it to optimize results. 00:48:56.030 --> 00:48:57.710 Maybe you're just wasting your time and money. 00:48:57.980 --> 00:49:03.200 Um, but yeah, the, that, that typically isn't, isn't sustainable for very long. 00:49:03.200 --> 00:49:08.780 And so at, at that point, do you just sort of lose interest in fitness and 00:49:08.780 --> 00:49:12.710 move on to a new hobby, or do you kind of come back to the middle as you say, 00:49:12.710 --> 00:49:18.500 and and incorporate it in, in a more kind of moderate way that isn't as extreme? 00:49:19.220 --> 00:49:20.480 Lindsay: Yeah, exactly. 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:20.990 Oh my goodness. 00:49:21.415 --> 00:49:22.285 Well, I love it. 00:49:22.285 --> 00:49:24.925 Lauren, it has been amazing having you on. 00:49:24.925 --> 00:49:30.505 I'm so glad that we gotta talk about these different topics and have, um, and also 00:49:30.505 --> 00:49:33.535 expose you to, uh, a lot of my clients. 00:49:33.625 --> 00:49:37.135 You don't have, you don't really post a ton on Instagram, do you? 00:49:38.365 --> 00:49:44.065 Lauren: I don't, I'm, it's, it's on my list of, uh, goals for the future. 00:49:44.065 --> 00:49:47.125 I'll try to be more out there and, and share more high 00:49:47.125 --> 00:49:49.825 quality information, but, um, I. 00:49:50.545 --> 00:49:56.335 I know that the, the Instagram fitness scene is a lot, and I've mostly 00:49:56.335 --> 00:49:59.065 been focused on finishing up my PhD. 00:49:59.065 --> 00:50:03.475 So now that I've, I'm officially done with that, I will have a bit more time. 00:50:03.475 --> 00:50:06.565 And so I hope to be more active on social media and people can 00:50:06.565 --> 00:50:07.975 reach out if they have questions. 00:50:08.305 --> 00:50:11.125 Lindsay: Well, I would love to see you more active on there just because 00:50:11.125 --> 00:50:16.435 I feel like this space and especially women in this space would really 00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:21.880 appreciate just, kind of your wise approach to, to health and fitness. 00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:23.170 So I think it would be awesome. 00:50:23.170 --> 00:50:27.160 But I also understand from being in the space, it is overwhelming. 00:50:28.565 --> 00:50:32.950 So, so anyways, but where can they, where can they find you? 00:50:32.950 --> 00:50:34.060 How can they reach out to you? 00:50:34.780 --> 00:50:34.960 Lauren: Yeah. 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:40.030 My Instagram is Lauren CS one, and that's, you can. 00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:44.380 Send me a message and, um, I, I will try to start posting more. 00:50:44.380 --> 00:50:44.980 'cause I agree. 00:50:44.985 --> 00:50:48.610 I, I mean, and I wanna put up information that, that will be helpful. 00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:54.400 Um, I'm, I'm not interested in battling those with, you know, different 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:56.231 opinions because I don't have Mm-Hmm. 00:50:56.495 --> 00:50:58.145 An investment one way or another. 00:50:58.145 --> 00:51:02.525 You know, I did the science because I was genu, genuinely curious As a 00:51:02.530 --> 00:51:07.235 woman, as a coach of women, I want, I wanted to know if it mattered. 00:51:07.505 --> 00:51:12.215 Um, and I, I didn't, you know, go into doing this work with any 00:51:12.215 --> 00:51:13.805 kind of bias one way or another. 00:51:13.810 --> 00:51:17.255 I would be equally excited to share the results if they 00:51:17.255 --> 00:51:18.485 had come out the other way. 00:51:19.050 --> 00:51:19.340 Yeah. 00:51:19.345 --> 00:51:24.195 Um, I'm also, uh, an author of the Mass Research Review. 00:51:24.495 --> 00:51:28.185 And so if, if people wanna check that out, uh, it can be really 00:51:28.245 --> 00:51:33.135 helpful for translating the latest science in exercise, nutrition, 00:51:33.140 --> 00:51:37.215 behavior change, sports psychology, kind of everything that, that we're 00:51:37.215 --> 00:51:41.145 interested in when it, when it comes to optimizing performance for lifters. 00:51:42.110 --> 00:51:48.110 That is a monthly research review, but we also post a free content on the Master 00:51:48.110 --> 00:51:54.680 Research Review Instagram, and we host a weekly YouTube live kind of q and a. 00:51:54.680 --> 00:51:57.710 We call Office Hours if people wanna check that out. 00:51:58.010 --> 00:52:02.720 Um, that's a another great source of information that I would highly recommend. 00:52:03.380 --> 00:52:08.900 Lindsay: I've been a mass member for like five or six years, and I always encourage 00:52:08.900 --> 00:52:11.090 people when they're like, how do you, 00:52:11.680 --> 00:52:13.030 how do you keep up on studies? 00:52:13.030 --> 00:52:16.270 Because there's, there's low quality studies, there's high quality studies. 00:52:16.270 --> 00:52:20.050 I mean, there's an array of them and I don't have time 00:52:20.740 --> 00:52:22.300 to, to read through it all. 00:52:22.300 --> 00:52:26.860 But, um, I always encourage coaches, like, if you're serious 00:52:26.860 --> 00:52:29.050 about, about this field, I. 00:52:29.050 --> 00:52:30.415 Mass members is awesome. 00:52:30.595 --> 00:52:31.075 Like, and 00:52:31.075 --> 00:52:31.465 Lauren: Even if 00:52:31.465 --> 00:52:36.175 you did have the time, you know, it's a, it's a really technical skill Yes. 00:52:36.205 --> 00:52:40.375 To be able to read, interpret, and critique research. 00:52:40.405 --> 00:52:43.165 So yeah, I think it's, it's really valuable. 00:52:43.165 --> 00:52:48.115 And if, if anyone is a trainer that needs to get their continuing education 00:52:48.295 --> 00:52:54.835 for, uh, the NSCA, ACE nasm, um, they, we also offer those, those CEUs 00:52:54.835 --> 00:52:57.625 and it's a really cost effective way to get your continuing education. 00:52:58.555 --> 00:52:59.365 Lindsay: That's awesome. 00:52:59.605 --> 00:52:59.965 Awesome. 00:52:59.995 --> 00:53:00.265 Okay. 00:53:00.265 --> 00:53:01.495 Well thank you so much. 00:53:01.495 --> 00:53:02.035 I'm excited. 00:53:02.245 --> 00:53:03.655 I'll probably have you on again. 00:53:03.715 --> 00:53:04.555 You are awesome. 00:53:04.615 --> 00:53:05.135 Thank you, Lauren. 00:53:05.155 --> 00:53:05.275 No 00:53:05.275 --> 00:53:05.785 Lauren: thanks. 00:53:05.790 --> 00:53:06.535 Thanks for having me. 00:53:06.540 --> 00:53:07.645 I'd be happy to come back.