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Speaker 2: Welcome to Honest Money.

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I'm your host, Anja, and today's
episode is brought to you by hard block.

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Anja: Joining me today is Bram Kanstein.

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Bram is a Bitcoin podcaster with a
podcast called Bitcoin for millennials.

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It's doing incredibly well.

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I just checked his statistics and he's
got nearly 30,000 followers on YouTube,

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and he's just, I believe, two months
ago I released his 200th episode,

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which is an amazing achievement.

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Most podcasters don't
make it to a hundred.

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Um, welcome to Honest Money Brand.

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Bram: Thank you so much.

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Thanks for the invitation.

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Happy to.

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Yeah, you're

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Anja: very welcome.

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You're very welcome.

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Um, starting with the low hanging
fruit, obviously, what inspired you?

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To start the podcast
Bitcoin for millennials.

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I think it, I think it's, uh, it's
probably quite similar to what motivated

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you to start, uh, this po this podcast.

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Right.

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Like I, I think once you, once you kind
of see what Bitcoin is and what it could

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be, I think it draws a lot of people in.

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Um, with regard to, yeah, just
having the feeling that they

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want to contribute to that in.

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In some way, shape, or form.

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And I've always been quite, um, yeah, I
think just entrepreneurial, like just an

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entrepreneurial computer nerd basically.

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And I like to tinker with, um, yeah, tools
and new projects and stuff like that.

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So, um, it was, it was, it was
actually another podcast where I,

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where I heard, uh, a guy called Bob
Burnett, who is in, I think his mid

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sixties or something like True Boomer.

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His, his ex handle is also Boomer, BTC.

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And he said, um, if you, if you think,
um, Bitcoin is the biggest thing happening

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in the world right now, then uh, yeah,
you, you should contribute to this.

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This is the only thing
to pay attention to.

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Like if you, if you wanna
see if this succeeds, it's

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probably gonna take, um, yeah.

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Your lifetime.

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And, uh, I think, I think, uh, it's, it's
the most important thing to contribute to.

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And when I heard that, um, like
two and a half years ago, I was

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like, yeah, I actually should.

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I've been in Bitcoin for, since
like 20, 20 13, like on and off.

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I just, you know, I got distracted
by crypto and stuff like that,

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but just kept on studying.

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Eventually back into only, only Bitcoin.

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Yeah.

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When I heard him say that, I
was like, yeah, he's right.

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I sh I should, and then, you know,
of course I was thinking like, okay.

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What can I do?

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I've had ideas for a podcast before.

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I actually had, uh, a podcast, I don't
know, like five years ago or something.

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I made like 15 episodes, uh, before I
even published one because I thought,

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well, if I'm gonna start, I need like
this little backlog and stuff like that.

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But I never really published it, so
I don't know in some, some way that

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came back and it was like, yeah, you
should do, you should do a podcast.

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I think, uh, uh, I think that
was just, uh, kind of like the

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practical inspiration in, in a sense.

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But it was also in the same time that
I had like conversations, like just

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calls with, with people that I knew from
the internet that were into Bitcoin.

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And some of these calls at the end we were
like, damn, we should have recorded this.

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Like, I, uh, we, uh, you know, I, I,
I, I think this, this, this could be

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valuable to people, like how we, how we
go through this and discuss and reflect.

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Philosophize, stuff like that.

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And in, in that same time, so I got
the inspiration from Bob, I had these

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conversations, and then I also had
conversations with, yeah, my, my

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millennial, some of my millennial peers,
some of my, my, my best friends that

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just have no idea that the money is
broken, that there's a problem, that

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there's no pension, no social benefits,
at least in my opinion, in the future.

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Um.

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And I was kind of stunned by that.

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Like, um, I, I, I think I ended up
with Bitcoin in a pretty rational way.

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I don't have a finance or
economics background or whatever.

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For me, it's just about, okay,
do, do I want to use money that is

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the best until infinity, you know?

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And, uh, the answer is no.

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So I need, I need a solution.

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Right.

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And I eventually, yeah, eventually
I ended up with, with Bitcoin.

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But um, yeah, I was kind of stunned by
the fact that a lot of my generational

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peers just didn't really care.

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But you know, they go to the same
grocery store where the prices

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are only going, uh, only going up.

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They have the same health insurance of,
of which the price is only going up.

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Like, it's not like they are living
in a different reality or I'm

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living in a different, uh, reality.

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So it was kind of like these things
combined where I was just like, okay.

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Maybe I should do something that, uh, I
never really did before and just go for

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that and, you know, could have been a book
or whatever, but you know, it, it ended up

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being, uh, a podcast and eventually, um.

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You know, I like talking.

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So, uh, I think it's a good outlet
for me to, to talk about something I

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find, uh, uh, inter uh, interesting.

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And, um, yeah, that's how, that's
kind of how the podcast came about.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So was the other podcast the one
that you did 15 episodes with,

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was that also about Bitcoin?

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Bram: No, it was like more
like startup entrepreneurship.

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Nice.

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Uh, related.

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Um, I mean, it was fun.

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I had fun conversations, but I
never really put anything out.

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And I think it's also because, um, I
dunno, I'm, I'm kind of perfectionist

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or at least I, I think I was more,
uh, before, so when I started this

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podcast, I was like, okay, I need,
I do know I need a little backlog.

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And I had like all these
ideas and stuff like that.

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And then I heard, um, Mr. Beast, you
know, the famous, uh, YouTuber, he said.

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Whatever you do like on online,
just make a hundred editions of it.

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A hundred episodes, a hundred items.

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And that really motivated me to kind
of like put all these, all these big,

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big ideas I had to decide and just be
like, okay, I'm gonna make 100 episodes.

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Because his point was, well
after 100 episodes, you know?

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If, um, you enjoy doing it right, if
you become better at using the tools

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and and whatnot and, uh, YouTube and
Spotify and stuff like that, but also if

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people even wanna listen to it, right?

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And, um, I think that's
mainly the most interesting.

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Part like it.

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I don't know how, how that was on
your journey, but like on my journey

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there, there have been a lot of people
whose content I consumed, right?

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Who helped me in my journey of
understanding money and Bitcoin

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and you know, macro stuff.

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And now I feel like.

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I'm talking about that in my way,
but I'm also seeing that it reaches

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people, uh, d different people again.

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Right?

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So it's very interesting that kind of
like every cycle or every few years,

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there's this new group of people that
are like, well, hey, I wanna, I wanna

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contribute to this thing in my own way,
just like you are doing now, and you.

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Talk probably about Bitcoin
in a different way than me.

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And that's amazing because you
will reach other people than,

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um, than the people that I reach.

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Right.

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And I think that is just really fun
and rewarding and it's, uh, it's, it's,

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it's just fun to experience that you
can help people on, on this journey that

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is, uh, quite difficult, I would say.

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Anja: Yeah.

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Well this is a great lead
into my next question.

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So is your audience mainly millennials?

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Because the re, I'll tell you why I'm
asking, because I started my Bitcoin

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podcast because I wanted to help.

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Draw like the early
mainstreaming, particularly women.

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But what I'm finding is
90% of my audience is men.

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So

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Bram: yeah, it's, it's, it's funny.

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I think this is a, this
is a fun, fun topic.

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Uh, probably like 54% or something are in
the millennial bracket, but there's a lot

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of boomers that listen, which is logical
because they have millennial children.

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So they reply a lot actually
and say like, Hey, I'm 71.

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I'm full on into Bitcoin.

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Like they're always at
their age in the comment.

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I, I love it.

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And they say like, well, I, I, I
sent this podcast to my millennial

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children and I really think they
should listen to it and this and that.

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So it's, it's, it's, it's
kind of like a byproduct.

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I never really realized that.

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But, uh, there's a lot of boomers that,
that actually listen and, um, I think

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that is actually very interesting,
right, because the whole, the, the boomer

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generation, you know, especially in the
West, I think they just had it, well,

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no, not, not easy life, but in regard of.

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Having assets and opportunities
and stuff like that.

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They, they were just
there at the right time.

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And I think millennials are kind of
there at the wrong time, uh, with, you

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know, in the context of what they got.

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But I think millennials are in the right
time in the context of, um, of Bitcoin.

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So it's, it's like, uh, millennials
and, uh, and boomers and like some,

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some Gen Z, but I think that's the
main, um, the main group and yeah,

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why, why there aren't that many women.

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I don't, I honestly don't really know.

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I think this problem of monetary
debasement hits, hits everyone, right?

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Whatever, whatever you like to do
or buy or pursue, or like, it's

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all that, that's all irrelevant.

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So I would also think that, um, that
women would also be attracted to this, um,

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to this topic, but I, I haven't really.

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Found an answer as to why not.

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But I, I do think like, you have this,
you had this meme like a year ago, right,

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where they asked men like, how often
do you think about the Roman Empire?

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You know, do you know that meme?

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Anja: No, I don't.

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But I love a good meme.

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Like there's

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Bram: these, there, there, you know,
there there was these videos of

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women that asked their husbands or
their partners like, Hey, how often

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do you think about the Roman Empire?

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And like, all these guys light up.

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And they're like, do you have a minute?

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You know, did you know this
and this and that and that?

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And you know, the money is being
debate and it's all fucked.

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And it, and all these
women are like, whoa, dude.

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Like, what are, what
are you talking about?

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So I, I don't know.

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I just think it's interesting that,
um, I, I don't know why that is.

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Maybe, maybe, um.

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Yeah, maybe.

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Yeah, I don't know.

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I, I really don't have
an answer to it actually.

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Actually, yeah,

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Anja (2): I have, maybe it's just the men.

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Bram: I, I do think the men are, men are
also in, in a way, um, I think all, all,

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all men want to protect their, their
wife or, or their women if they have,

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have daughters and stuff like that.

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So they are constantly
thinking about that.

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Uh, also in a, in a, in a
subconscious way, I think.

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And, and that could be micro, right?

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Your house or where you live or whatever.

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But I think macro is also very, very
important and may maybe even more because

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there, there are forces that you, I
think by definition, cannot control.

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Right.

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May, maybe it's just that, it's just look,
looking for the danger to, to my family

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and how, how can I mitigate, um, that
which I, by definition cannot control.

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Right.

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And I think, uh, well, Bitcoin
is, is a, is a great solution,

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uh, to a lot of that stuff.

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Anja: Yeah.

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But what do you think?

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Yeah, no, I completely agree with you.

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I think men are the ones to probably
take initiative more to kind of explore

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uncharted territory, so to speak.

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But I think if women understood
that Bitcoin is money, they would

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definitely take an interest in
it, because money is again, yeah.

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So everyone uses it.

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So, yeah, so I, and it was so lovely
to hear and see on Twitter that.

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A lot of people that I follow are kind of
like making 2026 about Bitcoin is money.

224
00:11:35,874 --> 00:11:37,974
I think Frat said something like that.

225
00:11:37,974 --> 00:11:39,774
The Bitcoin way said something like that.

226
00:11:40,044 --> 00:11:42,744
I said it last year on
Bob Murphy's podcast.

227
00:11:42,954 --> 00:11:48,174
So yeah, it's like, I feel like everyone's
heading in 20 20, 20 26 in two with a

228
00:11:48,204 --> 00:11:50,034
mind friend of like, Bitcoin is money.

229
00:11:50,904 --> 00:11:52,134
Like just call it what it is.

230
00:11:53,214 --> 00:11:56,574
Speaker 9: Quick one for the Aussies
listening hard block is offering

231
00:11:56,574 --> 00:11:59,244
a $10 signup discount right now.

232
00:11:59,574 --> 00:12:02,994
And if you're with another
exchange, ask yourself this.

233
00:12:03,324 --> 00:12:06,954
Are they Australia's longest
running Bitcoin only exchange?

234
00:12:07,164 --> 00:12:09,744
Because if not, maybe it's time to switch.

235
00:12:10,164 --> 00:12:17,004
Head to hard block.com au slash
join slash Honest Money and

236
00:12:17,004 --> 00:12:18,924
start stacking stats today.

237
00:12:19,904 --> 00:12:22,874
Bram: Well, I, I think, I think
that's, that's interesting.

238
00:12:22,904 --> 00:12:24,974
I, I think it's true
and it's a good angle.

239
00:12:25,754 --> 00:12:28,424
And it's also why it's
so confusing, right?

240
00:12:28,754 --> 00:12:32,354
So on the one side, I think people
think Bitcoin is an investment,

241
00:12:32,354 --> 00:12:35,534
something you get rich with
when the price goes up, right?

242
00:12:35,534 --> 00:12:38,414
I, I think about the
price as an exchange rate.

243
00:12:38,414 --> 00:12:40,034
It's, it, it is a money.

244
00:12:40,124 --> 00:12:43,934
You, you exchange one money
for a better money, right?

245
00:12:43,934 --> 00:12:46,964
And once you start seeing it like
that, okay, then you end up with,

246
00:12:46,964 --> 00:12:48,584
well, what is, what is money?

247
00:12:48,584 --> 00:12:51,104
And then, and uh, you know,
that's, that's another podcast.

248
00:12:51,104 --> 00:12:53,444
But then what is Honest Money, right?

249
00:12:53,884 --> 00:12:56,434
Um, and I think when, when, yeah.

250
00:12:56,524 --> 00:13:01,234
I think when people think about money,
they think about, uh, the medium of

251
00:13:01,234 --> 00:13:03,874
exchange part, uh, the, the most.

252
00:13:03,874 --> 00:13:08,134
Where, um, actually yesterday I had
a podcast recording with someone

253
00:13:08,134 --> 00:13:09,934
who inspired me a lot along the way.

254
00:13:09,934 --> 00:13:12,484
Fiji boy, Patti, I dunno
if you know who that is.

255
00:13:12,484 --> 00:13:12,544
Yeah.

256
00:13:12,694 --> 00:13:13,474
Like he, yeah.

257
00:13:13,684 --> 00:13:17,134
So he, he wrote, uh, an article
like nine years ago called

258
00:13:17,134 --> 00:13:18,304
The Bullish Case for Bitcoin.

259
00:13:18,304 --> 00:13:21,094
And he said he, he says like, you
know, you go from collectible.

260
00:13:21,219 --> 00:13:24,699
Collectible to store value to medium
of exchange to unit of account, and

261
00:13:24,699 --> 00:13:30,669
so medium of exchange, whether we
want to use Bitcoin to as a reward

262
00:13:30,669 --> 00:13:36,039
in a value exchange, and I agree with
this, only comes after the person

263
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:37,994
who you know, wants to receive it.

264
00:13:38,969 --> 00:13:40,889
Realizes he can also save in it, right?

265
00:13:40,889 --> 00:13:43,319
Like, why would I want to get a reward?

266
00:13:43,589 --> 00:13:48,389
That, uh, of which it's unclear if I can
save in it or if, if it stores my wealth.

267
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:52,559
And of course, everyone is doing the
wrong thing today with fiat money, right?

268
00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,469
They're trading their finite time
and energy for something other

269
00:13:55,469 --> 00:13:57,059
people can create infinitely.

270
00:13:57,239 --> 00:13:59,219
But that is where the difficulty part is.

271
00:13:59,219 --> 00:14:01,499
Like this is just what people think is.

272
00:14:02,069 --> 00:14:05,579
Um, money, but they don't understand
that over history there have been

273
00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:10,799
many, many different forms and
attempts of an ad, um, ad money.

274
00:14:10,799 --> 00:14:16,079
And so Bitcoin is no
different than than that.

275
00:14:16,529 --> 00:14:20,309
As in an attempt at better money,
it actually is superior money.

276
00:14:20,309 --> 00:14:24,569
And I think that a added is also
something that people just cannot gr.

277
00:14:24,779 --> 00:14:25,319
It's like, wow.

278
00:14:25,589 --> 00:14:28,919
Yeah, it's, if it sounds too
good to be true, it probably is.

279
00:14:28,919 --> 00:14:29,159
Right?

280
00:14:29,159 --> 00:14:29,949
But that's kind of like the.

281
00:14:30,704 --> 00:14:31,754
The field brain rot.

282
00:14:31,964 --> 00:14:35,324
I say like, they, like, the
people don't see it, people don't,

283
00:14:35,354 --> 00:14:37,274
people don't understand this.

284
00:14:37,364 --> 00:14:40,004
Um, yeah, just the context of money.

285
00:14:40,004 --> 00:14:40,634
The history of money.

286
00:14:40,634 --> 00:14:42,284
I didn't understand that before either.

287
00:14:42,284 --> 00:14:42,524
Right.

288
00:14:42,524 --> 00:14:46,034
So I don't wanna say that I, I, uh, I did.

289
00:14:46,634 --> 00:14:50,114
But it takes a long time until you Yeah.

290
00:14:50,119 --> 00:14:52,874
Kind of accept that apparently.

291
00:14:53,459 --> 00:14:57,719
There are other people no better than
you that influence the value, uh, of

292
00:14:57,719 --> 00:15:00,044
the reward in in exchanges that you do.

293
00:15:00,854 --> 00:15:01,934
Okay, what does that mean?

294
00:15:01,934 --> 00:15:03,494
What do I, what do I think of that?

295
00:15:03,494 --> 00:15:04,934
Can I do anything about that?

296
00:15:04,964 --> 00:15:09,104
You know, and I think if you're
curious and, and open enough, you will

297
00:15:09,464 --> 00:15:13,334
get to the point where you realize
you are being taken advantage of.

298
00:15:13,574 --> 00:15:16,724
But, um, yeah, a lot of people
just don't, don't see that.

299
00:15:16,724 --> 00:15:17,534
And, and that's okay.

300
00:15:17,534 --> 00:15:19,064
I mean, it takes, takes time.

301
00:15:19,064 --> 00:15:23,264
And I think in a sense we are
also yeah, maybe lucky in the way

302
00:15:23,264 --> 00:15:25,154
our brains are wired or whatever.

303
00:15:25,304 --> 00:15:27,734
Um, that, that, that we figured it out.

304
00:15:27,734 --> 00:15:32,204
So I. I think it's a pity that
not a lot of people have woken

305
00:15:32,204 --> 00:15:35,594
up to the fact that, um, fiat
money is basically a Ponzi scheme.

306
00:15:35,594 --> 00:15:38,954
But yeah, it's just, um, I mean
that's not, that's nothing new, right?

307
00:15:38,954 --> 00:15:41,864
Like that's of all, um, all of history.

308
00:15:41,864 --> 00:15:45,884
Like some people are
ahead of others and yeah.

309
00:15:45,944 --> 00:15:46,964
I mean, that's just what it is.

310
00:15:47,744 --> 00:15:48,044
Anja: Yeah.

311
00:15:48,074 --> 00:15:48,284
Okay.

312
00:15:48,284 --> 00:15:50,624
I'll go back to one of the
questions that I've got here

313
00:15:50,984 --> 00:15:52,754
because we've mentioned boomers.

314
00:15:52,754 --> 00:15:57,254
We've mentioned obviously the, the name of
your podcast is Bitcoin for millennials.

315
00:15:57,494 --> 00:16:00,644
You know that meme that's been
shared around, I really wanna

316
00:16:00,644 --> 00:16:01,724
know what you think of it.

317
00:16:01,724 --> 00:16:04,214
So I've got it written down
here so I don't mess it up.

318
00:16:04,514 --> 00:16:10,634
If I pay a Boomer 10 x for what he
paid for his house, he can pay me.

319
00:16:11,074 --> 00:16:13,894
A thousand x would I pay for my Bitcoin?

320
00:16:14,434 --> 00:16:15,214
What do you think?

321
00:16:16,234 --> 00:16:17,104
Bram: Yeah, I love that.

322
00:16:18,334 --> 00:16:23,374
I mean, there's, there's a lot of
things that you can take out of that.

323
00:16:23,374 --> 00:16:28,414
I, I think what comes to mind for
me is that if, if you think about.

324
00:16:30,469 --> 00:16:34,274
The, the fact that someone got
rich by buying a house is already

325
00:16:34,274 --> 00:16:36,224
an interesting thing, right?

326
00:16:36,224 --> 00:16:40,424
Like if you just think about
a house being a, a, a, a, a

327
00:16:40,424 --> 00:16:43,004
utility tool, basically, right?

328
00:16:43,004 --> 00:16:45,434
It's a, it's, it's a utilitarian product.

329
00:16:45,824 --> 00:16:50,564
It gives you, uh, you know, shelter
and warmth and you know, so privacy,

330
00:16:50,564 --> 00:16:52,064
protection, et et cetera, right?

331
00:16:52,064 --> 00:16:53,924
Everyone needs a home.

332
00:16:54,104 --> 00:16:56,744
That's a kind of like a basic thing, okay?

333
00:16:56,744 --> 00:16:58,034
So if everyone needs a home.

334
00:16:59,144 --> 00:17:03,074
Will there always be special homes
or nice homes and nice places, right?

335
00:17:03,074 --> 00:17:03,914
Or luxurious homes.

336
00:17:03,914 --> 00:17:04,154
Yeah.

337
00:17:04,154 --> 00:17:04,934
Of, of course.

338
00:17:04,934 --> 00:17:05,174
Right.

339
00:17:05,174 --> 00:17:09,074
So if, if there's freedom to build
whatever home, then some people

340
00:17:09,074 --> 00:17:13,514
will build, um, like special
stuff in special places, right?

341
00:17:13,514 --> 00:17:16,994
And those, and those are unique and
those are valuable in their own way.

342
00:17:17,264 --> 00:17:21,164
Uh, by the way, probably to a very
small group of, of people, right?

343
00:17:21,164 --> 00:17:24,614
So you, if you have a $10 million
home, there's not a lot of people

344
00:17:24,614 --> 00:17:26,984
that can actually buy it, let alone.

345
00:17:27,569 --> 00:17:31,169
You know, like what you
did to the home, right?

346
00:17:31,169 --> 00:17:35,639
So they, they have a bigger consideration
than just the, the buying price if they

347
00:17:35,639 --> 00:17:37,199
wanna make it their, their own thing.

348
00:17:37,199 --> 00:17:42,329
But, um, in general, a home is,
is, is is something that is, uh, a

349
00:17:42,329 --> 00:17:45,089
utility, but it's kind of weird that.

350
00:17:46,064 --> 00:17:52,064
Homes became a way to grow wealth,
which would indicate that there is

351
00:17:52,064 --> 00:17:57,974
either, um, some form of engineered
scarcity because conceptually you

352
00:17:57,974 --> 00:17:59,894
can build infinite homes, right?

353
00:18:00,314 --> 00:18:06,044
In whatever level, at whatever
level of quality or, um, how do

354
00:18:06,044 --> 00:18:09,494
you say, like, uh, uh, efficiency.

355
00:18:11,024 --> 00:18:15,584
So that's kind of weird, like how,
how, how did, how did homes become a

356
00:18:15,584 --> 00:18:18,974
way to grow your wealth and um, uh.

357
00:18:20,084 --> 00:18:23,864
I think the con, the conclusion,
well, or my conclusion to that is,

358
00:18:24,164 --> 00:18:29,414
is that the financialization of, of
homes is basically a consequence of

359
00:18:29,414 --> 00:18:33,554
the creation of mortgages, which is
just another form of debt, right?

360
00:18:33,554 --> 00:18:38,534
So, so banks, back in the day when,
when banks started, it was about credit,

361
00:18:38,534 --> 00:18:40,544
but credit for on entrepreneurs, right?

362
00:18:40,544 --> 00:18:44,969
If you say, okay, I have a plan to
build X, Y, Z, which is gonna have.

363
00:18:46,424 --> 00:18:48,434
A, b, c value in the future.

364
00:18:48,914 --> 00:18:51,614
I need some money now in
order to, to get there.

365
00:18:51,614 --> 00:18:53,984
And then, because it's valuable,
I'm gonna make money and then I'm

366
00:18:53,984 --> 00:18:58,244
gonna pay, you know, this, um,
this loan back with some interest.

367
00:18:58,334 --> 00:19:00,194
But yeah, you can put that model on.

368
00:19:00,224 --> 00:19:01,694
Well, uh, insurance, right?

369
00:19:01,694 --> 00:19:07,874
Insurance is just an upside
down, uh, um, uh, loan basically.

370
00:19:08,264 --> 00:19:10,419
Um, but then someone realized, well, if.

371
00:19:11,639 --> 00:19:15,119
What, what else can we create with credit?

372
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,219
What kind of products can
we create with credit?

373
00:19:17,219 --> 00:19:20,879
Well, everyone needs a home, so
why not make home home credit?

374
00:19:20,879 --> 00:19:21,119
Right.

375
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,509
And it's interesting because there,
you can already see that like the,

376
00:19:24,749 --> 00:19:27,689
once you start introducing that,
like the whole incentive structure

377
00:19:27,689 --> 00:19:30,809
is kind of, um, eventually messed up.

378
00:19:32,009 --> 00:19:35,879
Having us now be in a place, you know,
especially in your country where.

379
00:19:36,779 --> 00:19:41,729
Homes that, you know, in your
mind 20 years ago would probably

380
00:19:41,729 --> 00:19:47,159
be 300,000 Aussie dollars are now
two or 3 million Aussie dollars.

381
00:19:47,159 --> 00:19:47,339
Right?

382
00:19:47,339 --> 00:19:52,259
So the numbers don't even compute
with the, the home you would be

383
00:19:52,259 --> 00:19:53,729
looking at if, if that makes sense.

384
00:19:54,029 --> 00:19:59,279
So it is really weird that homes became.

385
00:20:00,434 --> 00:20:03,794
Functionally a way to grow
wealth until this point, right?

386
00:20:03,794 --> 00:20:05,804
I, I don't think it's
really possible anymore.

387
00:20:05,804 --> 00:20:09,674
So there's a stretch that there's
like an end to it, but because it

388
00:20:09,674 --> 00:20:13,454
worked for the boomers and also
Gen X to a big degree, right?

389
00:20:13,454 --> 00:20:17,864
That is the story that, that they tell
the millennials and Gen Z, et cetera.

390
00:20:17,864 --> 00:20:22,064
But the millennials and Gen Z are walking
into the fact that they cannot really,

391
00:20:22,994 --> 00:20:28,754
um, buy a, a home, not only because
of the cost, but also because there's.

392
00:20:29,564 --> 00:20:33,494
There're there are like, uh, um,
not enough homes like in my country,

393
00:20:33,494 --> 00:20:37,184
I think they need like 300,000
homes or, or something like that.

394
00:20:38,054 --> 00:20:43,544
So that's just one angle to unpack what
you said, because if homes, homes are

395
00:20:43,544 --> 00:20:47,774
by definition not scarce, because you
could create more of them, in reality,

396
00:20:47,774 --> 00:20:50,234
they are scarce because of who knows.

397
00:20:50,354 --> 00:20:50,744
Right?

398
00:20:50,984 --> 00:20:54,644
And then, you know, just,
uh, practically and then.

399
00:20:55,424 --> 00:20:59,234
To get them, it's even more hard
because not a lot of people can

400
00:20:59,234 --> 00:21:05,294
now actually pay for the amount of
interest that they ask for mortgages.

401
00:21:05,294 --> 00:21:08,834
And that is because the whole field
money, the basement game just went on

402
00:21:08,834 --> 00:21:10,394
too long and that's why we're here.

403
00:21:10,664 --> 00:21:17,324
So why, um, why can a Boomer
pay a thousand X to me?

404
00:21:17,354 --> 00:21:20,894
Uh, you know, what I paid for my Bitcoin
is because Bitcoin is absolutely finite.

405
00:21:21,659 --> 00:21:21,959
Right.

406
00:21:21,959 --> 00:21:28,799
So if, um, if, if Bitcoin can function
as a store of value, like people

407
00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:33,659
have started to use homes in a way
to store and grow wealth, okay.

408
00:21:33,659 --> 00:21:37,379
If you, if you compare that on
just one characteristic, which is

409
00:21:37,379 --> 00:21:41,609
the, the scarcity, it just blows
homes out of the water, right?

410
00:21:41,609 --> 00:21:46,229
Because again, conceptually
homes are infinite and, um.

411
00:21:47,714 --> 00:21:51,374
Uh, factually, Bitcoin is
absolutely finite, right?

412
00:21:51,374 --> 00:21:53,624
So those are just two.

413
00:21:53,939 --> 00:21:55,874
They, they aren't even
comparable to each other.

414
00:21:55,874 --> 00:21:57,164
Plus you can use Bitcoin as money.

415
00:21:57,164 --> 00:21:59,684
You can send Bitcoin to
anywhere in the world, right?

416
00:21:59,744 --> 00:22:00,104
Right.

417
00:22:00,104 --> 00:22:03,764
If I wanna sell my Bitcoin right now, I
can sell it to someone that I've never

418
00:22:03,764 --> 00:22:06,674
seen wherever they are in the world.

419
00:22:06,674 --> 00:22:09,674
If I wanna sell my Malibu beachfront home.

420
00:22:10,634 --> 00:22:14,474
Yeah, there's maybe like 10 or, or, well,
let's say a thousand people that could

421
00:22:14,474 --> 00:22:16,784
actually A, afford it and B would want it.

422
00:22:16,784 --> 00:22:17,024
Right.

423
00:22:17,024 --> 00:22:21,854
So it's, it's just these, these
things that over time I think I just

424
00:22:21,854 --> 00:22:24,704
started seeing like, if you put all
the characteristics of these different

425
00:22:24,704 --> 00:22:26,664
assets next to each other, then uh.

426
00:22:27,719 --> 00:22:31,739
Bitcoin is the most obvious thing to
own, but not a lot of people know it.

427
00:22:31,739 --> 00:22:34,559
And I think that's where
this meme comes from.

428
00:22:34,559 --> 00:22:38,249
It's like, okay, it's uh, you,
you've got a hundred x on your

429
00:22:38,249 --> 00:22:42,299
house, I'm gonna have a thousand x
on on, on Bitcoin, and that's okay.

430
00:22:42,299 --> 00:22:42,929
That's what I said.

431
00:22:42,929 --> 00:22:45,419
Also in the beginning, I
think every, every generation

432
00:22:45,419 --> 00:22:46,649
has their own opportunity.

433
00:22:46,649 --> 00:22:50,069
So the boomers had the homes,
gen X had like the index funds,

434
00:22:50,069 --> 00:22:51,869
s and p 500, stuff like that.

435
00:22:52,589 --> 00:22:55,499
Um, and millennials have Bitcoin, I think.

436
00:22:57,299 --> 00:22:59,939
Anja: I actually know more
boomers in Australia who've got

437
00:22:59,944 --> 00:23:01,739
Bitcoin than, than millennials.

438
00:23:01,739 --> 00:23:02,459
I think like,

439
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:04,889
Bram: well, for the, it's, it's, yeah.

440
00:23:04,889 --> 00:23:05,579
That's interesting.

441
00:23:05,579 --> 00:23:05,759
Right?

442
00:23:05,774 --> 00:23:13,142
I would applaud those people because
they, they, they got wealth in this system

443
00:23:13,262 --> 00:23:15,752
by just being there at the right time.

444
00:23:15,992 --> 00:23:18,962
Well, of course people worked and
stuff like that, but just being at

445
00:23:18,962 --> 00:23:22,832
a place at the right time gives you
a certain opportunity and I think.

446
00:23:24,102 --> 00:23:26,987
I think the boomers are
probably the main signal, right?

447
00:23:26,987 --> 00:23:28,247
Because they are, they are.

448
00:23:28,247 --> 00:23:31,607
I they are in retirement or
close to retirement, right?

449
00:23:32,237 --> 00:23:35,597
Their problem is the
same as we have, right?

450
00:23:35,597 --> 00:23:38,357
Just rising costs, but.

451
00:23:39,152 --> 00:23:43,712
They need to, they are closer to their
future, if that may, well, to the end

452
00:23:43,712 --> 00:23:45,272
of their life, to the, to their future.

453
00:23:45,272 --> 00:23:45,512
Right.

454
00:23:45,512 --> 00:23:48,242
Whereas when you're younger and you're
like further, you're not gonna think

455
00:23:48,272 --> 00:23:51,692
you're, no one is really thinking about
like, oh, well, how much, how much

456
00:23:51,752 --> 00:23:53,912
money units do I need when I'm 70?

457
00:23:54,662 --> 00:23:55,412
If that makes sense.

458
00:23:55,412 --> 00:23:55,562
Right.

459
00:23:55,562 --> 00:23:59,012
So the, the future in that
sense is further away.

460
00:23:59,012 --> 00:24:02,612
So not a lot of people think about it,
but when you're a boomer and you know,

461
00:24:02,612 --> 00:24:05,972
you've worked 40 or 50 years in your life.

462
00:24:06,947 --> 00:24:10,247
And you hope to live another,
I don't know, 15, 20.

463
00:24:11,867 --> 00:24:12,047
Yeah.

464
00:24:12,047 --> 00:24:13,067
How are you gonna pay for that?

465
00:24:13,067 --> 00:24:16,967
So I think the problem for
them is way more, uh, at the

466
00:24:16,967 --> 00:24:18,437
surface, way more apparent.

467
00:24:18,677 --> 00:24:24,767
So their urge to store whatever they
have in something that others cannot

468
00:24:24,767 --> 00:24:28,842
create more of, I think is, uh, is,
yeah, it's just more apparent them.

469
00:24:29,732 --> 00:24:33,422
Anja: Yeah, I was in my like
late twenties, early thirties.

470
00:24:33,422 --> 00:24:36,752
I was in property and I
had two small apartments.

471
00:24:37,112 --> 00:24:39,632
Um, 'cause that's all I could
kind of afford at the time.

472
00:24:40,052 --> 00:24:43,802
And I decided that property wasn't for me.

473
00:24:43,802 --> 00:24:45,482
It came with too many things.

474
00:24:45,512 --> 00:24:49,862
It also made me a little bit immobile and
I quite like being free and not having

475
00:24:49,862 --> 00:24:54,302
to like, you know, anchor myself in one
location because I was in that phase of my

476
00:24:54,302 --> 00:24:56,162
life where I just still wanted to kind of.

477
00:24:56,717 --> 00:24:59,087
Follow my career and follow
my dreams and whatnot.

478
00:24:59,567 --> 00:25:03,917
Um, but now I'm wondering if I
actually regret selling, at least,

479
00:25:04,577 --> 00:25:06,407
you know, one of those properties.

480
00:25:06,407 --> 00:25:10,757
Because looking at what they're
selling for now, it hurts.

481
00:25:10,937 --> 00:25:11,627
It really hurts.

482
00:25:11,627 --> 00:25:12,827
I'm like, I'm like, oh no.

483
00:25:13,337 --> 00:25:16,397
Did I just price myself
out of the housing market?

484
00:25:16,667 --> 00:25:18,797
But, you know, yeah, I guess.

485
00:25:19,502 --> 00:25:19,742
I guess,

486
00:25:19,962 --> 00:25:24,587
Bram: um, I think, I think that's,
that's, um, that's I think an

487
00:25:24,587 --> 00:25:26,867
interesting thing to maybe zoom in on.

488
00:25:26,867 --> 00:25:33,257
Like, I, I would say no, it's, it's
just because it, it is, it, you can,

489
00:25:33,287 --> 00:25:37,547
you only can do that in hindsight, but
at the time, I think all the things

490
00:25:37,547 --> 00:25:45,227
you mentioned, they, they are important
to, they were important to you.

491
00:25:45,287 --> 00:25:45,587
Right.

492
00:25:45,617 --> 00:25:46,247
And I think.

493
00:25:46,907 --> 00:25:54,947
That tension between you realizing that
there are certain, uh, liabilities or

494
00:25:54,947 --> 00:26:00,827
characteristics that come with real estate
and whether or not they align with how

495
00:26:00,827 --> 00:26:07,397
you want to live, I think is a, is a, is
a, is a great thing to question right.

496
00:26:07,397 --> 00:26:09,437
Or to, to, uh, reflect on.

497
00:26:09,737 --> 00:26:14,622
And if in that moment you would've been.

498
00:26:15,992 --> 00:26:20,132
Let's say distracted by, oh no, real
estate is going up and I'm gonna

499
00:26:20,132 --> 00:26:23,072
be rich and I'm gonna, you know,
it's gonna suck when I sell this.

500
00:26:23,072 --> 00:26:27,632
And you know what, whatever, like
you, you should just follow what

501
00:26:28,322 --> 00:26:30,152
you think is important for you.

502
00:26:30,152 --> 00:26:34,022
And only in hindsight you can
see if, if that is the case.

503
00:26:34,022 --> 00:26:38,042
And now I think if you only look
at money, yeah, maybe now you,

504
00:26:38,162 --> 00:26:39,692
you then missed out on some stuff.

505
00:26:40,202 --> 00:26:44,792
But if you're into Bitcoin, you
know, wait five or 10 years.

506
00:26:45,467 --> 00:26:47,207
And your whole feeling will be different.

507
00:26:47,837 --> 00:26:52,817
Um, so I think it's really more about
the like conscious decision making.

508
00:26:52,817 --> 00:26:54,557
If, if that, if that makes sense.

509
00:26:54,557 --> 00:26:58,817
And I think that is something that
Bitcoin eventually also gives you.

510
00:26:58,817 --> 00:27:02,057
I think that is actually what is
distorted with, with fiat money, right?

511
00:27:02,057 --> 00:27:07,697
This whole, um, high time preference
focus on the short term, et cetera.

512
00:27:08,597 --> 00:27:11,252
Um, where I think Bitcoin gives you.

513
00:27:13,322 --> 00:27:16,082
A way more optimistic
outlook toward the future.

514
00:27:16,802 --> 00:27:21,542
So I, I, this is why I think Bitcoin
is also so interesting to me.

515
00:27:21,542 --> 00:27:27,422
Like what does it, what does it, what
does it mean when you pick one asset over

516
00:27:27,422 --> 00:27:29,312
the other, or one money over the other?

517
00:27:29,312 --> 00:27:32,192
Like, what does the
impact, uh, of that, right?

518
00:27:32,192 --> 00:27:35,762
Because for example, people that
choose fiat money, I, I don't

519
00:27:35,762 --> 00:27:40,262
think there are many people that
consciously choose to use fiat money.

520
00:27:41,192 --> 00:27:41,402
Anja: No.

521
00:27:42,272 --> 00:27:47,372
Bram: So everyone is basically forced
to use fiat money unknowingly, right?

522
00:27:47,582 --> 00:27:53,852
So unknowingly it also influences a
lot of their, um, their incentives

523
00:27:53,852 --> 00:27:57,032
and motivations, wants, needs,
whatever, because they just.

524
00:27:58,412 --> 00:28:02,822
Operate in this paradigm or matrix,
whatever you wanna call it, right?

525
00:28:02,822 --> 00:28:06,812
This, this constructed reality in
which fiat money is, is the money.

526
00:28:07,172 --> 00:28:11,312
Uh, but, but fiat money is probably
the shortest lift money, uh, of all

527
00:28:11,312 --> 00:28:13,562
the money that ever e existed, right?

528
00:28:13,922 --> 00:28:16,772
In the, in the, in the, in the human
history for, you know, it's just,

529
00:28:16,772 --> 00:28:18,722
uh, like 55 years or something now.

530
00:28:19,472 --> 00:28:21,932
So I think that is just a big contrast.

531
00:28:22,442 --> 00:28:27,662
Against consciously becoming aware
of the fact that other people control

532
00:28:27,662 --> 00:28:30,902
the money, that they basically steal
your time and energy, that you have a

533
00:28:30,902 --> 00:28:32,642
problem, no one is coming to save you.

534
00:28:32,642 --> 00:28:34,112
You need to find a solution, right?

535
00:28:34,112 --> 00:28:38,342
Like all these things, accepting that,
that that is the case and starting to

536
00:28:38,942 --> 00:28:40,892
figure out, okay, what should I do?

537
00:28:40,892 --> 00:28:42,392
And then getting to Bitcoin.

538
00:28:42,752 --> 00:28:45,482
Now you are into Bitcoin and now
all the other people that you

539
00:28:45,482 --> 00:28:46,862
know are like, you're insane.

540
00:28:47,282 --> 00:28:48,392
When are you gonna sell it?

541
00:28:48,392 --> 00:28:50,072
What are you gonna sell,
sell it for, right.

542
00:28:50,072 --> 00:28:54,572
So it's just, it's just, it's just hard
when you become more conscious, when you

543
00:28:54,572 --> 00:28:59,732
start making more conscious decisions, you
also realize that there, uh, apparently

544
00:28:59,882 --> 00:29:01,292
are a lot of other people that don't.

545
00:29:01,952 --> 00:29:02,342
Right.

546
00:29:02,672 --> 00:29:07,262
So I, uh, I, I just think there's just
a really interesting tension there

547
00:29:07,262 --> 00:29:14,222
where, um, literally what you just
said, I think that is like a fiat money.

548
00:29:15,197 --> 00:29:17,747
Mindset, psychological, remnant, whatever.

549
00:29:17,747 --> 00:29:18,017
Right?

550
00:29:18,197 --> 00:29:19,937
And, and I mean, I have the same, right?

551
00:29:19,937 --> 00:29:22,067
So I'm not saying you're doing
something bad, but I just think

552
00:29:22,067 --> 00:29:26,772
it's so interesting that you are
programmed in a certain way to just.

553
00:29:27,752 --> 00:29:31,022
You know, go along, like e even
this, it's kind of a pity, right?

554
00:29:31,022 --> 00:29:34,772
It's kind of a pity that you did
all of this work you consciously

555
00:29:34,772 --> 00:29:39,302
decide to move to, to bitcoin in
your own self interest, right?

556
00:29:39,752 --> 00:29:42,722
And then you have these kind of like
thoughts where it's like, well, what

557
00:29:42,722 --> 00:29:44,672
if this or what if that or what, right?

558
00:29:44,672 --> 00:29:47,162
Like it, it just, it,
it kind of messes up.

559
00:29:47,582 --> 00:29:51,272
Um, I think the alignment that.

560
00:29:52,022 --> 00:29:55,952
You got to by doing the work, right?

561
00:29:55,952 --> 00:29:57,362
And it is just like an ego thing.

562
00:29:57,362 --> 00:30:01,382
So it's like, I don't know, I just think
it's interesting that, that, again, the,

563
00:30:01,472 --> 00:30:05,852
the money you're forced to use actually
influences way more than just, you know,

564
00:30:05,852 --> 00:30:08,432
it being a practical tool or whatever.

565
00:30:08,432 --> 00:30:11,642
And so even, even this, I mean, you
have a Bitcoin podcast, you are into

566
00:30:11,642 --> 00:30:14,612
Bitcoin, and then it's like, well,
maybe I should have no, fuck that.

567
00:30:14,672 --> 00:30:17,162
Like, no, this is, you're
doing the other thing.

568
00:30:17,412 --> 00:30:18,162
Does that make sense?

569
00:30:18,162 --> 00:30:20,112
Like I, I just, yeah, absolutely.

570
00:30:20,112 --> 00:30:22,422
The tension is just
so, it is so messed up.

571
00:30:22,482 --> 00:30:24,612
Like it goes, it goes so deep.

572
00:30:25,392 --> 00:30:28,932
Um, yeah, again, I, I just think
that's, it's, it's interesting.

573
00:30:29,442 --> 00:30:29,742
Yeah.

574
00:30:29,742 --> 00:30:32,142
It really, it's messed up and
interesting at the same time

575
00:30:32,352 --> 00:30:33,462
Anja: messed up and interesting.

576
00:30:33,462 --> 00:30:33,822
Yes.

577
00:30:33,912 --> 00:30:34,152
Yeah.

578
00:30:34,212 --> 00:30:37,632
I, I definitely have moments
where, actually I think they

579
00:30:37,632 --> 00:30:39,282
happen less and less frequently.

580
00:30:39,282 --> 00:30:41,322
They're like the opposite
of our contractions.

581
00:30:42,342 --> 00:30:43,062
It's, um.

582
00:30:44,042 --> 00:30:46,262
Basically, I have moments where
I'm like, what if I'm wrong?

583
00:30:46,802 --> 00:30:49,592
What if I got something about
Bitcoin wrong and then I have

584
00:30:49,592 --> 00:30:51,332
to like, kind of reset my brain?

585
00:30:51,332 --> 00:30:53,762
It's like, okay, how does Fiat work?

586
00:30:53,942 --> 00:30:55,322
How does Bitcoin work?

587
00:30:55,442 --> 00:30:56,522
Oh, no, I'm good.

588
00:30:56,522 --> 00:30:58,357
You know, I'm good.

589
00:30:58,892 --> 00:30:59,222
Bram: Yeah.

590
00:30:59,252 --> 00:31:01,412
No, but listen, this, I love, I love this.

591
00:31:01,412 --> 00:31:03,122
This is, this is why hobbling is hard.

592
00:31:03,782 --> 00:31:04,742
This is why hobbling is hard.

593
00:31:04,742 --> 00:31:06,002
It is a challenge.

594
00:31:06,032 --> 00:31:07,352
It is a daily challenge.

595
00:31:07,862 --> 00:31:10,292
Answering the question,
can I still trust myself?

596
00:31:10,502 --> 00:31:10,922
So what?

597
00:31:10,952 --> 00:31:11,877
What would you go back to?

598
00:31:13,022 --> 00:31:15,002
So you have all this, um,
you know, trusting somebody

599
00:31:15,002 --> 00:31:15,392
Anja: else.

600
00:31:16,622 --> 00:31:19,112
Bram: Okay, well good luck,
have fun, staying poor, right?

601
00:31:19,112 --> 00:31:21,212
Like, no, but I mean, like
that is why, that is why the

602
00:31:21,212 --> 00:31:22,502
meme is have fun staying poor.

603
00:31:22,712 --> 00:31:26,702
Like, do these other people care more
about your individual prosperity than you?

604
00:31:26,702 --> 00:31:26,762
Yeah,

605
00:31:27,032 --> 00:31:27,632
Anja (2): no,

606
00:31:27,722 --> 00:31:28,592
Bram: it's nonsense.

607
00:31:29,072 --> 00:31:32,702
You know, these people have, have
the same ego, uh, issues, the

608
00:31:32,702 --> 00:31:36,542
same life, challenges, desires,
ones, needs, all trauma, all these

609
00:31:36,542 --> 00:31:37,952
things that you and I also have.

610
00:31:38,402 --> 00:31:40,652
So why would you outsource.

611
00:31:41,627 --> 00:31:46,877
Probably the most critical, um, one of
the most critical parts of your life,

612
00:31:46,877 --> 00:31:51,467
which is how do I protect my time and
energy, which is absolutely finite.

613
00:31:51,467 --> 00:31:52,517
I can die tomorrow.

614
00:31:53,207 --> 00:31:53,987
I don't know it.

615
00:31:53,987 --> 00:31:56,717
I know it's absolutely finite,
but I don't know how much I have.

616
00:31:56,807 --> 00:32:01,997
So if I spend it today and someone, you
know, trying to create value and someone

617
00:32:01,997 --> 00:32:08,477
else gives me a reward for that, but over
time I can buy less and less with it.

618
00:32:08,717 --> 00:32:10,097
I basically gave away.

619
00:32:10,922 --> 00:32:15,542
My finite time and energy, so
someone else could benefit from that.

620
00:32:15,722 --> 00:32:16,712
Like, fuck that.

621
00:32:17,192 --> 00:32:17,552
Right?

622
00:32:18,032 --> 00:32:21,212
No, but like, is it that,
that is the blue pill?

623
00:32:21,212 --> 00:32:22,232
Are you okay with that?

624
00:32:22,232 --> 00:32:24,842
If you're okay with that, you know?

625
00:32:25,502 --> 00:32:25,832
Anja (2): Mm-hmm.

626
00:32:26,432 --> 00:32:26,972
Bram: Whatever.

627
00:32:27,512 --> 00:32:31,292
If you're not okay with that, you
also instantly take on all the

628
00:32:31,292 --> 00:32:32,702
stuff that comes with, with that.

629
00:32:34,247 --> 00:32:34,757
Does that make sense?

630
00:32:34,757 --> 00:32:34,967
And cry a

631
00:32:34,967 --> 00:32:35,777
Anja: little bit like, yeah.

632
00:32:36,677 --> 00:32:37,787
Bram: No, but like responsibility.

633
00:32:38,687 --> 00:32:39,197
Yeah.

634
00:32:39,197 --> 00:32:39,767
Oh my God.

635
00:32:39,767 --> 00:32:42,317
I have responsibility of,
I have agency over my life.

636
00:32:42,317 --> 00:32:43,292
I have responsibility over.

637
00:32:43,427 --> 00:32:43,607
Yeah.

638
00:32:43,607 --> 00:32:44,147
No shit.

639
00:32:44,237 --> 00:32:44,692
But that's what I love.

640
00:32:44,692 --> 00:32:45,012
You scarring.

641
00:32:45,012 --> 00:32:45,407
That's what

642
00:32:45,587 --> 00:32:46,787
Anja: Australia's gonna love you.

643
00:32:47,507 --> 00:32:52,127
Speaker 10: Need a way to sign, verify
and secure your Bitcoin Australia's

644
00:32:52,127 --> 00:32:53,717
one-stop shop for Bitcoiners.

645
00:32:53,867 --> 00:32:58,307
Has you covered from signing
devices, nodes, and backup solutions?

646
00:32:58,607 --> 00:33:03,632
To bid access day decor and
apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au.

647
00:33:07,187 --> 00:33:07,487
Bram: Okay.

648
00:33:07,727 --> 00:33:09,407
No, but that's like, that's it.

649
00:33:09,407 --> 00:33:11,372
It's so funny because if, if, if.

650
00:33:12,797 --> 00:33:16,037
But, but this is the essence of
life, in my opinion, is it is either

651
00:33:16,037 --> 00:33:20,507
you walk through it like in an MPC
way, like, oh yeah, no, of course,

652
00:33:20,507 --> 00:33:21,527
you know, it's gonna be great.

653
00:33:21,527 --> 00:33:26,027
No other people obviously have my
best interest because I don't know,

654
00:33:26,057 --> 00:33:32,387
uh, the TV said so, or, um, I'm
going to take my own responsibility.

655
00:33:32,387 --> 00:33:35,417
And then it becomes more and
more scary because you realize

656
00:33:36,197 --> 00:33:38,987
that there's a lot of things that
you've outsourced in your life.

657
00:33:39,962 --> 00:33:41,102
And you don't know why.

658
00:33:41,582 --> 00:33:44,102
You don't know why you do
it because, well, uh, other

659
00:33:44,102 --> 00:33:45,332
people, other people do it.

660
00:33:45,362 --> 00:33:47,882
Uh, he has this or that
degree or, uh, whatever.

661
00:33:47,882 --> 00:33:48,062
Yeah.

662
00:33:48,062 --> 00:33:50,432
But what the fuck, what does
that, what does that mean?

663
00:33:50,882 --> 00:33:51,122
Right?

664
00:33:51,122 --> 00:33:57,542
And so I think that, that, that is
why, why Bitcoin is also very, uh,

665
00:33:57,572 --> 00:33:59,402
is a very spiritual experience to me.

666
00:33:59,402 --> 00:34:04,292
It is that you just wake up to
the fact that the fact that you

667
00:34:04,292 --> 00:34:08,102
didn't take responsibility, like
all you know, took on the agency.

668
00:34:08,447 --> 00:34:11,237
It's actually an opportunity
for other people to exploit you.

669
00:34:11,672 --> 00:34:11,962
Anja: Yeah.

670
00:34:11,967 --> 00:34:12,107
Yeah.

671
00:34:12,647 --> 00:34:14,717
Bram: And that always happens, right?

672
00:34:14,717 --> 00:34:17,267
Like that, that is of all ages.

673
00:34:18,257 --> 00:34:22,877
But when you decide to not do
that, that's when you realize,

674
00:34:23,567 --> 00:34:23,927
Anja (2): you know,

675
00:34:24,257 --> 00:34:27,107
Bram: how unaware you,
you were, uh, before.

676
00:34:27,107 --> 00:34:29,387
And like you said, oh my god,
like so much responsibility.

677
00:34:29,387 --> 00:34:29,537
Right.

678
00:34:29,537 --> 00:34:34,307
I have a, I have a friend who sold
this company and, uh, you know, he,

679
00:34:34,307 --> 00:34:35,897
he, he has a lot, a lot of money.

680
00:34:36,392 --> 00:34:40,172
And uh, he once asked me, well, if I
have a million in Bitcoin and I have that

681
00:34:40,172 --> 00:34:42,392
in self storage, I'm fully responsible.

682
00:34:42,392 --> 00:34:43,382
I'm like, yeah, dude.

683
00:34:43,412 --> 00:34:44,102
Like, yeah.

684
00:34:44,582 --> 00:34:45,872
He's like, oh, that's very scary.

685
00:34:45,872 --> 00:34:48,542
I said, do you know what's scary
when like your other millions are

686
00:34:48,542 --> 00:34:53,942
in the bank and they're contr con
contractually, legally, not your property?

687
00:34:54,947 --> 00:34:55,527
Oh yeah, yeah.

688
00:34:55,577 --> 00:34:57,077
Oh, I never really thought
about it like that.

689
00:34:57,077 --> 00:34:59,357
I'm like, yeah, dude, that
like, but you know what I mean?

690
00:34:59,357 --> 00:35:00,407
Like that, that is it.

691
00:35:00,467 --> 00:35:04,457
So people think that because there's
all these abstractions of like

692
00:35:04,667 --> 00:35:08,597
legal or government or whatever,
like they, they, they are safe.

693
00:35:08,597 --> 00:35:12,137
But the whole point is that it's,
it's, it's, it's all abstracted,

694
00:35:12,137 --> 00:35:13,307
like even a home, right?

695
00:35:13,337 --> 00:35:20,477
Like even a title deed is a, is a stamp
proved by some other third party, and it,

696
00:35:20,477 --> 00:35:22,367
it is not your, it is not your property.

697
00:35:22,367 --> 00:35:22,787
So.

698
00:35:23,897 --> 00:35:26,477
All the way down the road
at the end of the road.

699
00:35:27,407 --> 00:35:31,517
Um, anything else can, pro,
can, can be taken from you.

700
00:35:32,087 --> 00:35:32,387
Anja (2): Yeah.

701
00:35:32,417 --> 00:35:32,627
That

702
00:35:32,627 --> 00:35:37,637
Bram: you could use as, as a store of,
of value, as a way to store your wealth.

703
00:35:37,787 --> 00:35:39,767
Uh, except, uh, Bitcoin.

704
00:35:39,767 --> 00:35:42,407
But I think accepting
that one is, is hard.

705
00:35:42,407 --> 00:35:45,347
And to, if you then are into Bitcoin Yeah.

706
00:35:45,347 --> 00:35:46,547
You, you are the.

707
00:35:47,597 --> 00:35:51,497
You're the responsible person, but
that, that is, that is the, the

708
00:35:51,497 --> 00:35:53,117
trade off that, that you're making.

709
00:35:53,717 --> 00:35:58,757
And, um, yeah, I, I just, I
just think that brings that

710
00:35:58,757 --> 00:36:00,377
conscious decision making, right?

711
00:36:00,377 --> 00:36:04,307
Like being accepting that there's
other people that apparently are

712
00:36:04,307 --> 00:36:07,367
taking advantage of you because you
are not aware of what you're doing.

713
00:36:07,397 --> 00:36:07,697
Right.

714
00:36:07,697 --> 00:36:08,687
You're not an actor.

715
00:36:08,747 --> 00:36:10,757
You are a subject in this, in the system.

716
00:36:10,787 --> 00:36:11,117
Okay.

717
00:36:11,117 --> 00:36:11,897
That is messed up.

718
00:36:12,137 --> 00:36:12,917
Uh, okay.

719
00:36:13,772 --> 00:36:18,632
Step two, I'm really gonna integrate
that I was never awake, right?

720
00:36:18,692 --> 00:36:19,982
Other people took advantage of me.

721
00:36:20,012 --> 00:36:20,792
Okay, messed up.

722
00:36:21,092 --> 00:36:22,202
What am I gonna do now?

723
00:36:22,232 --> 00:36:24,782
Okay, all these, you know,
I have all these options.

724
00:36:25,172 --> 00:36:30,002
And when you end up with Bitcoin,
um, no matter how much Bitcoin you

725
00:36:30,002 --> 00:36:35,072
have, I always say the fact you make
that conscious decision to do that,

726
00:36:35,522 --> 00:36:37,472
I think is the liberating, uh, part.

727
00:36:37,652 --> 00:36:39,542
Because when you then look back.

728
00:36:40,982 --> 00:36:44,192
You're gonna see all the things
where you didn't pay attention.

729
00:36:44,432 --> 00:36:48,872
So I think there, the, there's already
a really big reward in actually taking

730
00:36:48,872 --> 00:36:52,532
that ownership and taking on that agency.

731
00:36:53,642 --> 00:36:58,532
Um, because it also, I think,
reveals to you these yeah, all

732
00:36:58,532 --> 00:37:00,782
these other things that you
weren't really paying attention to.

733
00:37:01,022 --> 00:37:05,642
And, and eventually I think that
could only be, um, a good thing.

734
00:37:07,002 --> 00:37:10,292
Anja: Yeah, I can really relate
to that because I, I've always

735
00:37:10,292 --> 00:37:14,672
been like into self-help stuff and
I remember years and years ago.

736
00:37:16,022 --> 00:37:19,622
Can't remember whether it was a book
or a talk that I went to, but someone

737
00:37:19,622 --> 00:37:24,602
was making an analogy, um, between,
you know, in, in the game of life,

738
00:37:24,602 --> 00:37:28,262
do you wanna be the person that is
spectating a sport or you wanna be the

739
00:37:28,262 --> 00:37:30,182
person on the court playing the sport?

740
00:37:30,512 --> 00:37:35,462
And I definitely have to admit I
have been an NPC in my past life.

741
00:37:35,552 --> 00:37:35,852
Um.

742
00:37:37,052 --> 00:37:44,222
Do you think Bitcoin is almost like a
fast track into, I guess, this ultimate

743
00:37:44,222 --> 00:37:50,792
self responsibility and you know, kind of
lifting yourself out of that NPC behavior

744
00:37:50,792 --> 00:37:52,622
that I guess everyone can be prone to?

745
00:37:52,772 --> 00:37:55,022
Bram: Yeah, I think, I think
that is in essence why.

746
00:37:55,877 --> 00:37:59,027
Why you need to take a red pill
before you have an orange pill.

747
00:37:59,027 --> 00:37:59,207
Right.

748
00:37:59,207 --> 00:38:03,137
I think, I think it's really
like, um, like the movie, I think

749
00:38:03,137 --> 00:38:06,287
the whole matrix movie is about
this what you just said, right?

750
00:38:06,287 --> 00:38:09,977
It, it is about, there is a
certain constructed reality.

751
00:38:09,977 --> 00:38:12,377
It's not like there are
people on computers that

752
00:38:12,377 --> 00:38:13,607
construct a reality that's not.

753
00:38:14,642 --> 00:38:18,482
See, I, I think this is also really
interesting already, like how do you

754
00:38:18,482 --> 00:38:20,222
receive what we are talking about?

755
00:38:20,222 --> 00:38:21,602
How does someone receive that, right?

756
00:38:21,602 --> 00:38:25,352
The point is, I think if you, if
you put it into the essence of

757
00:38:25,352 --> 00:38:31,262
it, if your base starting point
is no one else is better than you,

758
00:38:31,322 --> 00:38:33,482
period, we all deserve to be here.

759
00:38:34,817 --> 00:38:35,057
Right.

760
00:38:35,057 --> 00:38:37,877
We were all born, we were all,
we all deserve to be here.

761
00:38:38,207 --> 00:38:40,247
Everyone is equal in that sense.

762
00:38:40,517 --> 00:38:43,667
Everyone is a little piece of
consciousness in a meat suit.

763
00:38:43,877 --> 00:38:44,267
Okay?

764
00:38:44,267 --> 00:38:46,487
So everyone is, is equal.

765
00:38:46,577 --> 00:38:52,607
Why would I allow other people
to construct my reality for me?

766
00:38:53,087 --> 00:38:58,817
You know, in some, in some way it's
a good thing because you learn.

767
00:38:58,877 --> 00:38:59,777
You learn from it.

768
00:39:00,752 --> 00:39:05,102
You, you, you learn from how other
people, same as I'm talking now,

769
00:39:05,102 --> 00:39:06,722
someone is gonna hear that, right?

770
00:39:06,722 --> 00:39:10,082
And I'm sharing how I, I see it.

771
00:39:10,172 --> 00:39:13,532
That might not be how, how they
see it, but they could use what I'm

772
00:39:13,532 --> 00:39:17,162
saying to adjust their paradigm.

773
00:39:17,162 --> 00:39:17,852
Does that make sense?

774
00:39:18,302 --> 00:39:19,082
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.

775
00:39:19,112 --> 00:39:19,322
Bram: Okay.

776
00:39:20,582 --> 00:39:26,522
But the critical part is you don't
take what I say as the truth, right?

777
00:39:26,792 --> 00:39:28,442
You think for yourself because.

778
00:39:29,117 --> 00:39:31,337
You are no better than
me and I'm not better.

779
00:39:31,397 --> 00:39:32,477
I'm not better than you.

780
00:39:32,507 --> 00:39:37,397
And the fact that a lot of people are
not aware is an opportunity for people

781
00:39:37,397 --> 00:39:44,147
that are more aware to do things that
create a structure, a paradigm, a

782
00:39:44,147 --> 00:39:45,472
matrix for the people that are unaware.

783
00:39:46,772 --> 00:39:50,042
And then all these people are like,
oh, whoa, this is, this is chill.

784
00:39:50,102 --> 00:39:52,622
And all these, all these things
are happening for me and all.

785
00:39:52,652 --> 00:39:57,272
But, but, but that is the, I really
want to try to, to like boil it down.

786
00:39:57,422 --> 00:40:03,422
Like if you just accept what other people
say as a truth without reflecting on it,

787
00:40:04,052 --> 00:40:07,202
then you are adopting their para paradigm.

788
00:40:07,802 --> 00:40:11,372
And if their idea of.

789
00:40:12,182 --> 00:40:16,202
Their paradigm is influencing
your paradigm, right?

790
00:40:16,742 --> 00:40:19,532
They are the actor and
you are the subject.

791
00:40:19,712 --> 00:40:20,492
Does that make sense?

792
00:40:21,872 --> 00:40:28,652
So if that is their game, if their game
is to influence your game, that uh,

793
00:40:28,712 --> 00:40:32,342
that is why you're subject and that
is what, what you need to wake up to.

794
00:40:32,522 --> 00:40:35,732
And so I think that the spiritual part is.

795
00:40:36,422 --> 00:40:39,062
Kind of connected to what I
just said in the beginning.

796
00:40:39,062 --> 00:40:43,862
Once you realize that you are not
your body and your thoughts and your

797
00:40:43,862 --> 00:40:45,602
ego and and all these things, right?

798
00:40:45,602 --> 00:40:50,162
And that this is just, you know, like
Alan Watts says, look, this is the dream.

799
00:40:50,162 --> 00:40:55,982
You, you, you see this reality for 80,
90, a hundred, whatever years, right?

800
00:40:56,072 --> 00:40:59,912
Like that is, that is the, the game,
like you said, yeah, I, I can do

801
00:40:59,912 --> 00:41:03,692
anything I want, but do I allow myself.

802
00:41:04,307 --> 00:41:09,407
To do anything, uh, I want to take
control to take that agency, right?

803
00:41:09,407 --> 00:41:13,247
And I think this is just
how the world works.

804
00:41:13,247 --> 00:41:15,197
You see that with, with
small children, right?

805
00:41:15,197 --> 00:41:18,677
Like when you are a parent and you
have a child, you tell them what

806
00:41:18,677 --> 00:41:22,002
you think is true and they're gonna
take that as like the building

807
00:41:22,247 --> 00:41:25,157
blocks of, of, of their paradigm.

808
00:41:25,157 --> 00:41:28,307
And whatever you see on the
tv, you can use as building

809
00:41:28,307 --> 00:41:29,717
blocks for your paradigm, right?

810
00:41:29,717 --> 00:41:30,167
And so.

811
00:41:31,562 --> 00:41:36,992
Um, when you, when you why Bitcoin is
like a, like a, like a portal to more of

812
00:41:36,992 --> 00:41:43,262
this, I think is because once you realize
that no one ever told you how money

813
00:41:43,262 --> 00:41:47,972
worked on purpose, because apparently
there are other people that influenced

814
00:41:47,972 --> 00:41:52,382
the value of this money that you trade
your finite time and energy for, whoa.

815
00:41:53,042 --> 00:41:56,402
Okay, if, if that is true, right?

816
00:41:56,402 --> 00:42:00,332
If you get to the conclusion that the
money is being controlled by people

817
00:42:00,332 --> 00:42:06,572
know better than you to influence you
psychologically, spiritually, et cetera.

818
00:42:06,842 --> 00:42:10,892
I mean, if you don't accept that,
then the, the, the, the, the rest

819
00:42:10,892 --> 00:42:14,762
of all the rabbit holes of all the
things also open up because money is

820
00:42:14,762 --> 00:42:16,802
arguably the most important technology.

821
00:42:17,702 --> 00:42:18,872
In, in the world.

822
00:42:18,872 --> 00:42:26,462
It, it is how you communicate value with
each other, how you, how you express

823
00:42:26,462 --> 00:42:31,262
value, how you, um, price value, right?

824
00:42:31,262 --> 00:42:37,952
So it is the start of all incentives of
all the work, all the productivity that

825
00:42:37,952 --> 00:42:44,492
people could apply after receiving a
reward or having the, the anticipation

826
00:42:44,492 --> 00:42:46,472
of, of getting a, a, a reward.

827
00:42:46,472 --> 00:42:46,802
So.

828
00:42:47,867 --> 00:42:50,507
In Bitcoin, there's the, the
meme, you know, every, everything

829
00:42:50,507 --> 00:42:51,737
is downstream from the money.

830
00:42:52,397 --> 00:42:52,667
Anja (2): Yeah.

831
00:42:52,757 --> 00:42:52,937
Bram: Right.

832
00:42:52,937 --> 00:42:58,697
If, if the money is broken and, and, and
therefore there are no, there, the, the,

833
00:42:58,697 --> 00:43:03,827
uh, the, how do you say, like the, um, the
incentives are, the incentives themselves

834
00:43:03,827 --> 00:43:05,927
are incentivized to be broken, right?

835
00:43:06,017 --> 00:43:07,607
Because their reward is broken.

836
00:43:08,537 --> 00:43:11,897
Everything after that, uh,
is a consequence of that.

837
00:43:11,897 --> 00:43:13,007
Does that, does that make sense?

838
00:43:13,187 --> 00:43:14,357
So I, I think absolutely.

839
00:43:14,627 --> 00:43:16,667
When you get to like.

840
00:43:17,252 --> 00:43:19,382
Just the, the beginning of incentives.

841
00:43:20,192 --> 00:43:24,782
Um, eventually we trade, you know, that,
that, that, like in the beginning when you

842
00:43:24,782 --> 00:43:30,992
had the barter, if, if I have fish and you
have banana, and I'm in a village where

843
00:43:30,992 --> 00:43:33,512
I have fish, but if no one wants fish.

844
00:43:34,487 --> 00:43:38,477
For example, we could have a A,
we could have a barter system,

845
00:43:38,477 --> 00:43:40,037
but I'm doing the wrong thing.

846
00:43:40,277 --> 00:43:40,997
Does that make sense?

847
00:43:41,177 --> 00:43:45,077
So I would be incentivized to do
some, to not catch fish anymore,

848
00:43:45,077 --> 00:43:48,557
to just start doing something
else that people would want.

849
00:43:48,557 --> 00:43:51,197
This is the origin of where,
where money comes from, right?

850
00:43:51,197 --> 00:43:56,327
Like when we barter it should be
we, Bart or something that I have.

851
00:43:56,327 --> 00:43:58,037
You want and you have, I want.

852
00:43:59,582 --> 00:44:05,762
And we only do it when we both deem it is
equal and you have my reward in your hand

853
00:44:05,762 --> 00:44:08,312
and I have your reward in, in my hand.

854
00:44:09,122 --> 00:44:15,362
And once we went to money, so,
uh, using what should be a neutral

855
00:44:15,362 --> 00:44:23,672
thing in between us so I could
sell my, my, my proposed value to

856
00:44:23,702 --> 00:44:25,892
people that don't have what I want.

857
00:44:26,717 --> 00:44:30,527
But I can use money to
buy what I want, right?

858
00:44:30,527 --> 00:44:32,327
It's, it's a great invention.

859
00:44:32,807 --> 00:44:37,967
But once that money is not
neutral anymore, then I'm back up.

860
00:44:38,447 --> 00:44:44,327
Then I'm, then, then my, then my judgment
of the value that I should bring or the,

861
00:44:44,507 --> 00:44:49,007
or the beauty or the the productivity I
should put into something gets messed up.

862
00:44:49,187 --> 00:44:49,907
Does that make sense?

863
00:44:50,507 --> 00:44:51,557
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.

864
00:44:51,947 --> 00:44:55,757
Bram: So it becomes unclear to me
how much value I should deliver.

865
00:44:56,192 --> 00:45:00,002
For a reward that other people know
better than me actually influence.

866
00:45:00,602 --> 00:45:02,162
And I think, yeah.

867
00:45:03,362 --> 00:45:04,532
I hope that made sense.

868
00:45:05,192 --> 00:45:05,702
Anja: It did.

869
00:45:05,912 --> 00:45:06,902
It definitely did.

870
00:45:06,902 --> 00:45:10,142
And it just kind of makes me
think a very scary thought.

871
00:45:10,142 --> 00:45:12,812
And I wanna know if you've
ever entertained this thought

872
00:45:12,812 --> 00:45:17,552
yourself, but have you ever
thought what you would do if.

873
00:45:18,257 --> 00:45:20,087
Bitcoin was to disappear somehow.

874
00:45:20,087 --> 00:45:20,117
I

875
00:45:20,177 --> 00:45:22,637
Bram: don't think it dis, I
don't think it's gonna disappear.

876
00:45:22,872 --> 00:45:23,892
Anja: No, I don't think it will either.

877
00:45:24,032 --> 00:45:24,692
But like, but if

878
00:45:24,692 --> 00:45:30,467
Bram: it dis, well, I always said
if this is in some weird way, some

879
00:45:30,467 --> 00:45:37,637
C-I-A-N-S-A-S IOP and it's hackable
and all that shit, that is not true.

880
00:45:37,967 --> 00:45:41,687
Then I would sit, I would
probably go and sit in a cave.

881
00:45:41,777 --> 00:45:44,537
Uh, I would applaud and be
like, well, okay, well played.

882
00:45:45,287 --> 00:45:45,827
Well played.

883
00:45:45,827 --> 00:45:46,367
Thank you.

884
00:45:46,967 --> 00:45:47,867
Uh, you got me.

885
00:45:48,047 --> 00:45:52,982
And, um, yeah, I'm gonna contemplate
all of this that I, what I just said.

886
00:45:54,272 --> 00:45:55,262
Meditate in a cave.

887
00:45:55,922 --> 00:45:56,462
I don't know.

888
00:45:56,552 --> 00:45:56,852
Yeah.

889
00:45:56,852 --> 00:45:57,782
Something like that.

890
00:45:58,742 --> 00:46:00,662
But I mean, this is, this
is also interesting, right?

891
00:46:00,662 --> 00:46:04,742
It's like when you, when you run into
like bit, you know, Bitcoin critics or

892
00:46:04,742 --> 00:46:07,532
whatever, they're like, oh no, it's a
speculative thing and this and that.

893
00:46:07,532 --> 00:46:09,932
And then I'm always like, dude, waking
up in the morning is speculative.

894
00:46:09,932 --> 00:46:11,642
Like I just rode my bike for 10 minutes.

895
00:46:11,642 --> 00:46:12,542
Speculative, right?

896
00:46:12,542 --> 00:46:17,162
I'm speculating on the fact that no
truck is gonna run me over and I'm dead.

897
00:46:17,162 --> 00:46:17,372
Right?

898
00:46:17,372 --> 00:46:17,582
Like

899
00:46:17,852 --> 00:46:18,632
Anja: it's gonna rain.

900
00:46:18,992 --> 00:46:19,352
Being,

901
00:46:19,352 --> 00:46:21,242
Bram: being born is speculative.

902
00:46:21,492 --> 00:46:22,122
Does that make sense?

903
00:46:22,122 --> 00:46:25,392
Like it is, like, speculative
is not like everything I do is

904
00:46:25,392 --> 00:46:30,252
speculating on a certain outcome
that is bigger, uh, or more positive

905
00:46:30,252 --> 00:46:32,022
than the work I put in, right?

906
00:46:32,022 --> 00:46:36,822
So it it, it, this whole idea of,
oh, what if Bitcoin goes away and you

907
00:46:36,822 --> 00:46:38,322
were wrong, or this and that, right?

908
00:46:38,322 --> 00:46:38,712
Yeah.

909
00:46:39,702 --> 00:46:40,062
Okay.

910
00:46:40,062 --> 00:46:41,142
But at least I tried.

911
00:46:41,232 --> 00:46:44,232
If, you know, these are people
that haven't even woken up to the

912
00:46:44,232 --> 00:46:45,462
fact that there are other people.

913
00:46:45,462 --> 00:46:47,527
Again, no better than them
just taking advantage of them.

914
00:46:48,662 --> 00:46:54,872
So they, they don't have any,
they don't add any weight or

915
00:46:54,872 --> 00:46:57,572
substance to my own Quest author.

916
00:46:58,427 --> 00:46:58,847
Mm-hmm.

917
00:46:58,907 --> 00:46:59,327
Author

918
00:47:00,152 --> 00:47:01,622
Anja: I was just quoting South Park.

919
00:47:01,802 --> 00:47:02,552
They don't have author.

920
00:47:03,482 --> 00:47:04,167
Bram: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

921
00:47:04,387 --> 00:47:06,517
But yeah.

922
00:47:06,537 --> 00:47:09,332
And, and they, and they only
have, when you let them.

923
00:47:10,742 --> 00:47:13,202
And then again, why, why, why?

924
00:47:13,442 --> 00:47:15,602
What does this other person
know that I don't know?

925
00:47:15,782 --> 00:47:19,502
You know, random Harry 1, 2, 3 on
Twitter that says You're a fucking

926
00:47:19,502 --> 00:47:20,882
idiot, and Bitcoin is a scam.

927
00:47:21,697 --> 00:47:22,147
Okay, dude.

928
00:47:22,517 --> 00:47:22,577
Yeah.

929
00:47:23,632 --> 00:47:24,767
What, what, yeah, actually that's a

930
00:47:24,767 --> 00:47:28,847
Anja: great, great, um, thread
to, to catch onto, like, have

931
00:47:28,847 --> 00:47:32,267
you experienced much hate since
you've started the podcast?

932
00:47:32,357 --> 00:47:32,867
Bram: No.

933
00:47:33,197 --> 00:47:36,797
Only when in real life when, um,
go to a conference or something,

934
00:47:37,397 --> 00:47:39,257
it's, it's only positive.

935
00:47:39,557 --> 00:47:41,537
And of course you have comments
on YouTube, but I think

936
00:47:41,537 --> 00:47:42,917
they're actually pretty rare.

937
00:47:43,097 --> 00:47:46,217
I do think there's some sort of
like YouTube bot network that

938
00:47:46,217 --> 00:47:48,857
has anti Bitcoin comments, but
that's a different conversation.

939
00:47:49,217 --> 00:47:51,647
But no, there's, there's
sometimes there's just negative.

940
00:47:51,677 --> 00:47:52,067
There's just.

941
00:47:53,252 --> 00:47:55,532
There's negative, but there's
always negative people, so

942
00:47:55,532 --> 00:47:56,522
it's, yeah, I don't know.

943
00:47:56,672 --> 00:47:57,392
I don't care.

944
00:47:58,052 --> 00:47:58,772
Anja: It doesn't for you.

945
00:47:58,772 --> 00:47:59,402
I don't,

946
00:47:59,402 --> 00:48:02,642
Bram: I don't, I don't, I don't do what
I do for the people that are negative.

947
00:48:02,702 --> 00:48:03,752
Like I don't, yeah.

948
00:48:03,752 --> 00:48:05,642
You know, like, yeah, whatever.

949
00:48:06,092 --> 00:48:06,302
No,

950
00:48:06,362 --> 00:48:06,632
Anja: yeah.

951
00:48:07,232 --> 00:48:08,342
No, that's interesting.

952
00:48:08,342 --> 00:48:10,862
'cause they, I am just kind of
thinking of lack of some of the

953
00:48:10,862 --> 00:48:14,132
things that I struggle with and that
one of them is negative comments.

954
00:48:14,192 --> 00:48:17,372
Another thing which I just remembered
that I wanted to ask you about,

955
00:48:17,372 --> 00:48:21,302
you said you're a perfectionist
and I'm a recovered perfectionist.

956
00:48:21,302 --> 00:48:22,052
I've actually.

957
00:48:22,517 --> 00:48:27,707
Really surprised myself, like with how
fast I've just launched myself into this.

958
00:48:28,307 --> 00:48:32,777
And it does hurt my heart to
sometimes post because I'm like,

959
00:48:32,777 --> 00:48:34,427
I didn't ask the best questions.

960
00:48:35,057 --> 00:48:40,247
I forgot to ask this great follow up,
or My lighting isn't great, or, you

961
00:48:40,247 --> 00:48:42,137
know, just the, and then I post anyway.

962
00:48:42,407 --> 00:48:44,687
And he is just so embarrassing sometimes

963
00:48:44,762 --> 00:48:45,497
Bram: to, to who?

964
00:48:45,497 --> 00:48:46,277
You, to you.

965
00:48:47,162 --> 00:48:47,822
But I agree.

966
00:48:47,822 --> 00:48:50,982
I mean, I mean, I, I, I mean, I
I totally understand That's very

967
00:48:50,982 --> 00:48:52,742
savvy what you're saying, huh?

968
00:48:53,012 --> 00:48:54,182
No, but I mean, like it's

969
00:48:55,442 --> 00:48:56,162
Anja: you to you.

970
00:48:57,152 --> 00:48:57,362
Bram: Yeah.

971
00:48:57,362 --> 00:48:58,862
But like you're embarrassing yourself.

972
00:48:58,862 --> 00:49:01,382
Like, but, but then when you're
like, well, yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm,

973
00:49:01,382 --> 00:49:05,312
I'm just doing what I would like
to do, what I think is valuable,

974
00:49:05,312 --> 00:49:06,842
but that's what everyone is doing.

975
00:49:07,922 --> 00:49:12,362
But it's only because you're aware
of it that you start to doubt

976
00:49:13,022 --> 00:49:15,452
the, the choices you're making.

977
00:49:16,007 --> 00:49:20,507
But it's the, um, but I mean, I have the
same, I, I saw, like, I have, uh, some

978
00:49:20,507 --> 00:49:23,297
like single like talking head type videos.

979
00:49:23,627 --> 00:49:27,317
I don't have a lot of tiktoks or
whatever, and I, I also run into this.

980
00:49:27,317 --> 00:49:30,227
I'm like, I'm gonna sit here
and record and then like, what,

981
00:49:30,257 --> 00:49:31,577
what the fuck do I have to say?

982
00:49:31,577 --> 00:49:31,847
Right?

983
00:49:31,847 --> 00:49:36,227
But when I'm with like friends or we
have like deep conversations, I'm just

984
00:49:36,227 --> 00:49:37,462
like, whoa, these are like a thousand.

985
00:49:38,267 --> 00:49:41,507
Like probably a hundred tiktoks
here that came out of my mouth.

986
00:49:41,807 --> 00:49:42,047
Right.

987
00:49:42,047 --> 00:49:43,007
But I didn't record them.

988
00:49:43,307 --> 00:49:44,687
So I don't know.

989
00:49:44,687 --> 00:49:48,677
I, I think everyone has their own
challenges with that, but I have

990
00:49:49,217 --> 00:49:54,827
experienced that just continuing
to do it, uh, actually helps.

991
00:49:55,307 --> 00:49:55,637
Anja: Yeah.

992
00:49:55,642 --> 00:49:57,542
And, uh, feel with fear and do it anyway.

993
00:49:57,542 --> 00:50:00,017
That's kind of what I
tell myself all the time.

994
00:50:00,137 --> 00:50:01,727
Feel the fear and do it anyway.

995
00:50:01,847 --> 00:50:07,277
Bram: Yeah, I mean it's, uh, it's um,
uh, do you know David Foster Wallace.

996
00:50:07,997 --> 00:50:09,287
Anja: Mm. Sounds familiar.

997
00:50:09,857 --> 00:50:10,727
Bram: Yeah, he's amazing.

998
00:50:10,727 --> 00:50:11,897
Wait, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,

999
00:50:12,437 --> 00:50:13,547
Anja (2): I'm gonna write this down.

1000
00:50:13,637 --> 00:50:18,797
Bram: I'm gonna look up the
quote he says, um, uh, yeah.

1001
00:50:18,887 --> 00:50:21,827
You become way less concerned with
what other people think of you when

1002
00:50:21,827 --> 00:50:23,207
you realize how seldom they do.

1003
00:50:24,227 --> 00:50:24,587
Anja: Yeah.

1004
00:50:24,647 --> 00:50:25,577
Bram: That's so fire.

1005
00:50:25,877 --> 00:50:26,477
I love that.

1006
00:50:27,532 --> 00:50:28,667
But it's true.

1007
00:50:28,697 --> 00:50:29,297
It's true.

1008
00:50:29,327 --> 00:50:29,387
Yeah.

1009
00:50:29,387 --> 00:50:31,457
And it's only, you know what's so funny?

1010
00:50:31,637 --> 00:50:33,017
I think this is how the universe works.

1011
00:50:33,167 --> 00:50:35,417
You only doubt yourself.

1012
00:50:35,822 --> 00:50:39,842
Or you only get, you only think
there's gonna be whatever comments

1013
00:50:41,222 --> 00:50:43,172
because you decided to do something.

1014
00:50:44,102 --> 00:50:46,442
So, you know, this is the same
thing as what we talked about.

1015
00:50:46,442 --> 00:50:49,652
When you, when you decide, oh, you
know, the money is fucked, I need

1016
00:50:49,652 --> 00:50:54,212
to figure out what I can do, and you
end up with Bitcoin, all the doubt,

1017
00:50:54,212 --> 00:50:58,382
all the whatever comes after that is,
is, is only a result of your choice.

1018
00:50:58,502 --> 00:50:59,972
So there isn't really.

1019
00:51:01,772 --> 00:51:04,232
It's all from inside, if that makes sense.

1020
00:51:04,232 --> 00:51:09,032
Like it's a con your, your, your, what
you feel as a perfectionist or like,

1021
00:51:09,032 --> 00:51:10,262
oh, should I do this or did I do?

1022
00:51:10,982 --> 00:51:14,522
It only comes from the fact that you
thought you would wanna do a podcast.

1023
00:51:14,702 --> 00:51:14,972
Okay.

1024
00:51:14,972 --> 00:51:15,722
So now what?

1025
00:51:15,727 --> 00:51:17,132
You, you stopped the podcast.

1026
00:51:17,222 --> 00:51:17,522
No.

1027
00:51:17,522 --> 00:51:18,122
You know what I mean?

1028
00:51:18,122 --> 00:51:18,272
It is

1029
00:51:18,272 --> 00:51:19,472
Anja (2): about, it's so funny.

1030
00:51:19,472 --> 00:51:20,912
Bram: It took me a really long time.

1031
00:51:21,002 --> 00:51:24,872
It took me a really long time
to, to understand that this is

1032
00:51:24,872 --> 00:51:26,252
how it works, at least for me.

1033
00:51:28,097 --> 00:51:33,017
You know, you are in a situation because
of e everything you decided, uh, before.

1034
00:51:33,887 --> 00:51:34,097
Yeah.

1035
00:51:34,097 --> 00:51:35,597
So, okay.

1036
00:51:35,597 --> 00:51:35,927
My,

1037
00:51:36,797 --> 00:51:39,197
Anja: my, my goal, it's
interesting you said, uh, a hundred

1038
00:51:39,197 --> 00:51:40,997
episodes because that's my goal.

1039
00:51:41,117 --> 00:51:44,237
Like, there's so many moments where I
like, kind don't think about quitting,

1040
00:51:44,237 --> 00:51:47,897
but I'm like, yeah, no, I'm just gonna
hit a hundred and then decide what to do.

1041
00:51:47,897 --> 00:51:48,227
So,

1042
00:51:49,367 --> 00:51:50,417
Bram: helped me a lot.

1043
00:51:50,472 --> 00:51:50,762
Yeah.

1044
00:51:50,987 --> 00:51:51,377
Anja: Yeah.

1045
00:51:52,547 --> 00:51:52,847
Yeah.

1046
00:51:53,687 --> 00:51:58,157
Um, but one of the wrap up questions I
wanted to ask you, um, 'cause obviously

1047
00:51:58,157 --> 00:52:01,307
there's still a lot of people that
are interested in contributing to the

1048
00:52:01,517 --> 00:52:05,837
Bitcoin space in their own way, and I
think for a lot of people podcasting

1049
00:52:05,837 --> 00:52:10,877
is, is is like on, on top of their list
or top of their mind, do you think?

1050
00:52:11,912 --> 00:52:15,392
Podcasting Bitcoin podcasts are
like an oversaturated market.

1051
00:52:15,542 --> 00:52:16,112
Bram: No.

1052
00:52:17,252 --> 00:52:18,872
Anja: Every podcaster says that.

1053
00:52:19,352 --> 00:52:23,372
Bram: No, because I, I talk about Bitcoin
in a different way than you talk about it.

1054
00:52:23,762 --> 00:52:26,342
So that's the main argument.

1055
00:52:26,342 --> 00:52:32,972
I think you, you, um, you know, it,
it, it's funny like when you, when

1056
00:52:32,972 --> 00:52:38,282
you, when I think about like, uh, like
how, like where, where's everyone at?

1057
00:52:38,282 --> 00:52:38,792
You have like.

1058
00:52:39,587 --> 00:52:42,767
Like, like vertical pillars and
there's like horizontal pillars.

1059
00:52:42,767 --> 00:52:43,937
It's like a grid, right?

1060
00:52:43,937 --> 00:52:47,387
And, and I'm somewhere on this grid
and, and you are somewhere on this

1061
00:52:47,387 --> 00:52:50,867
grid, like not necessarily high or low,
whatever, like you are somewhere, right?

1062
00:52:51,527 --> 00:52:54,107
And you came there by all
the stuff you did before.

1063
00:52:54,107 --> 00:52:57,437
And I came where I'm at, but
there's basically an infinite

1064
00:52:57,437 --> 00:53:00,497
amount of layers above and below
and left and left and right.

1065
00:53:01,007 --> 00:53:01,337
Okay.

1066
00:53:01,787 --> 00:53:02,687
So, um.

1067
00:53:03,422 --> 00:53:05,912
Like I said, how I talk about
Bitcoin is different than how,

1068
00:53:05,942 --> 00:53:09,572
how you talk about it and it will
appeal to, to different people.

1069
00:53:09,572 --> 00:53:14,372
Just like, um, you know,
I think every few years.

1070
00:53:16,217 --> 00:53:18,647
At least in Bitcoin, there's like a
different group of people that are

1071
00:53:18,647 --> 00:53:21,347
like, Hey, I wanna contribute to this
thing, you know, maybe I should start a

1072
00:53:21,347 --> 00:53:24,557
podcast or write a book or, uh, whatever.

1073
00:53:24,557 --> 00:53:29,267
And like I said, you know, talking to VJ
yesterday, who wrote an article nine years

1074
00:53:29,267 --> 00:53:34,502
ago, that really opened my eyes to like
the bigger picture idea of of, of Bitcoin.

1075
00:53:35,597 --> 00:53:37,217
He inspired me to do my thing.

1076
00:53:37,397 --> 00:53:40,037
And maybe I partially
inspired you to do your thing.

1077
00:53:40,127 --> 00:53:41,867
Like this is, this is the chain, right?

1078
00:53:42,617 --> 00:53:43,097
And.

1079
00:53:44,162 --> 00:53:46,592
I think that is just really nice.

1080
00:53:46,712 --> 00:53:51,032
And also when, you know, I sometimes
look at messages I get, I, I had a

1081
00:53:51,062 --> 00:53:54,662
few weeks ago, I had a guy who sent
me like, Hey, I found you on YouTube,

1082
00:53:54,662 --> 00:53:55,862
and I watched a bunch of stuff.

1083
00:53:56,042 --> 00:53:58,172
Then I found Breed Love,
and then I found Sailor.

1084
00:53:58,382 --> 00:54:02,312
And I was like, what a weird sequence,
because for me it was breed love

1085
00:54:02,312 --> 00:54:04,562
sailor, uh, and all these other people.

1086
00:54:04,832 --> 00:54:04,892
Yeah.

1087
00:54:05,342 --> 00:54:05,822
You know what I mean?

1088
00:54:05,822 --> 00:54:10,652
So, so you don't really know how,
um, how you talk about something

1089
00:54:10,652 --> 00:54:15,242
actually, how far it could reach
who it could touch and, and also how

1090
00:54:15,242 --> 00:54:18,032
yeah, how it resonates, um, with them.

1091
00:54:18,032 --> 00:54:23,522
You have your own way of, of, of
reflecting on it and talking about it.

1092
00:54:24,062 --> 00:54:28,742
And I think, I think that's,
um, amazing and, and super cool.

1093
00:54:28,802 --> 00:54:33,122
And I hope you reach way more
people that I cannot reach.

1094
00:54:34,757 --> 00:54:36,797
And this is also cool about
Bitcoin, don't you think like we

1095
00:54:36,797 --> 00:54:38,087
are contributing to the same thing?

1096
00:54:38,147 --> 00:54:41,957
Like if, if you reach 10 million
people, that's good for me too.

1097
00:54:42,827 --> 00:54:43,337
Anja: I love it.

1098
00:54:43,337 --> 00:54:43,847
I love it.

1099
00:54:43,847 --> 00:54:47,927
And like I've, I've only had support
from other podcasters as well, which is

1100
00:54:47,927 --> 00:54:51,827
like, I feel like that doesn't really
happen as much in any other industry

1101
00:54:51,827 --> 00:54:57,647
because a lot of us care about adoption
more than we do kind of competition.

1102
00:54:58,892 --> 00:54:59,912
So, yeah, that's really lovely.

1103
00:54:59,912 --> 00:55:05,552
But last wrap up question is, is there
something you're excited for for this

1104
00:55:05,552 --> 00:55:09,092
year and do you have any final thoughts
you wanna leave with my audience?

1105
00:55:09,182 --> 00:55:09,692
Um,

1106
00:55:10,412 --> 00:55:16,017
Bram: well, I, this year, I
don't know, I, I, um, yeah, I'm,

1107
00:55:16,352 --> 00:55:17,852
I'm just a hardcore huddler.

1108
00:55:17,882 --> 00:55:19,082
I'm not a prize guy.

1109
00:55:19,082 --> 00:55:24,452
I am not a, like, super macro, you know,
what is happening today, type, uh, person.

1110
00:55:24,452 --> 00:55:26,702
I, I do, I do follow it, but.

1111
00:55:27,317 --> 00:55:33,857
Um, I think over time I just built my
own understanding and conviction, and

1112
00:55:33,857 --> 00:55:38,837
I do try to challenge that obviously
because it's in my self-interest

1113
00:55:38,897 --> 00:55:41,027
to understand what I'm holding.

1114
00:55:42,677 --> 00:55:47,942
Um, I. So, yeah, I'm just holding, I'm,
I'm just like, I look at it, at this, uh,

1115
00:55:47,942 --> 00:55:50,462
as something that is entertaining now.

1116
00:55:50,462 --> 00:55:54,152
Like, I just want to see
how this is gonna play out.

1117
00:55:54,452 --> 00:55:59,522
And I've always seen Bitcoin as
it's either zero or it's, it's the

1118
00:55:59,522 --> 00:56:02,402
black hole of value and everything
is gonna be measured in Bitcoin.

1119
00:56:02,552 --> 00:56:07,982
I don't think there's like a mi a, a
a, a middle of the road ending for,

1120
00:56:08,192 --> 00:56:09,722
uh, Bitcoin, if that makes sense.

1121
00:56:09,722 --> 00:56:10,262
So.

1122
00:56:11,057 --> 00:56:12,887
In that sense, I'm also all in.

1123
00:56:12,887 --> 00:56:17,447
I think this is a, an an, an
asymmetric opportunity and a necessity,

1124
00:56:18,077 --> 00:56:21,287
um, for me and, uh, my children.

1125
00:56:21,407 --> 00:56:24,107
And that is what I'm going for.

1126
00:56:24,107 --> 00:56:30,647
And, uh, I think like 6, 6, 7 years
ago, I read this post on X by someone

1127
00:56:30,647 --> 00:56:34,247
who said, well, if you, if you think
Bitcoin is not going to zero, you

1128
00:56:34,247 --> 00:56:35,837
should get a seat in the stadium.

1129
00:56:36,047 --> 00:56:38,117
And I thought that was
a really interesting.

1130
00:56:38,852 --> 00:56:43,082
Way to frame the fact that, yeah, I should
be there, like if it happens, right?

1131
00:56:43,082 --> 00:56:48,272
And, and for example, if it happens meant,
uh, it was uh, a hundred K Bitcoin, right?

1132
00:56:49,082 --> 00:56:49,922
I wanna be there.

1133
00:56:49,982 --> 00:56:52,232
Like I wanna see it, you know,
what does that look like?

1134
00:56:52,232 --> 00:56:53,672
Are our brains gonna melt?

1135
00:56:53,672 --> 00:56:54,722
Is the internet gonna melt?

1136
00:56:54,722 --> 00:56:55,712
Well at a hundred K?

1137
00:56:55,712 --> 00:56:58,412
We had deafening silence,
but that was just fun.

1138
00:56:58,412 --> 00:57:00,002
Like, it's fun to see.

1139
00:57:00,452 --> 00:57:04,052
Um, it's fun to be early.

1140
00:57:04,052 --> 00:57:06,662
It's hard, but it's also
fun to be early because if.

1141
00:57:07,112 --> 00:57:11,642
If it's gonna play out, like we think
we're gonna look back and think, think

1142
00:57:11,642 --> 00:57:14,162
about this time in an amazing way.

1143
00:57:14,612 --> 00:57:18,422
So yeah, I'm just, I'm, I'm
just having fun in that sense.

1144
00:57:18,422 --> 00:57:23,102
I'm, I'm entertained and, um,
that's kind of how I look at it.

1145
00:57:23,102 --> 00:57:23,987
And, and maybe.

1146
00:57:25,367 --> 00:57:28,337
What I want to like, so I don't really,
yeah, I don't know about this year.

1147
00:57:28,342 --> 00:57:29,087
I don't, I don't really know.

1148
00:57:29,087 --> 00:57:30,047
I'm just following along.

1149
00:57:30,047 --> 00:57:31,817
That's kind of the,
that's kind of the answer.

1150
00:57:32,537 --> 00:57:33,887
Anja: You're here for the entertainment.

1151
00:57:35,147 --> 00:57:35,507
Bram: Yeah.

1152
00:57:35,507 --> 00:57:35,517
Yeah.

1153
00:57:35,987 --> 00:57:39,587
Um, most entertaining
outcome is the most likely.

1154
00:57:39,587 --> 00:57:45,107
So, um, um, and I think what I would
like to leave people with is, um.

1155
00:57:45,842 --> 00:57:50,282
I really realized that, uh, you know,
and that's what we talked about, the once

1156
00:57:50,282 --> 00:57:54,872
you realize that you're in this sort of
like rat race or race of time or whatever

1157
00:57:54,872 --> 00:58:01,712
you wanna call it, constructed by other
people for you without your consent or

1158
00:58:01,712 --> 00:58:03,422
whatever, you're just in there, right?

1159
00:58:03,422 --> 00:58:09,482
And, and, and, and, and along your growing
up people shape, shape that for you.

1160
00:58:09,902 --> 00:58:11,912
Once you step out of that.

1161
00:58:12,827 --> 00:58:15,797
Mentally one and then financially two.

1162
00:58:17,177 --> 00:58:17,417
Yeah.

1163
00:58:17,417 --> 00:58:21,197
You, you can really create your
own path and, and, and you're

1164
00:58:21,197 --> 00:58:22,847
not running, you're like walking.

1165
00:58:22,847 --> 00:58:23,057
Right.

1166
00:58:23,057 --> 00:58:26,297
So I always say like, oh, I'm,
I'm, I feel mentally retired.

1167
00:58:27,107 --> 00:58:30,322
You know, like it's, I
it's, um, thought you said

1168
00:58:32,552 --> 00:58:34,097
retired, retarded, mentally retarded.

1169
00:58:34,097 --> 00:58:34,367
Yeah.

1170
00:58:34,757 --> 00:58:36,017
Maybe also, I don't know.

1171
00:58:36,377 --> 00:58:38,867
Um, but um.

1172
00:58:40,192 --> 00:58:40,487
I don't know.

1173
00:58:40,487 --> 00:58:42,047
I'm just excited about the future.

1174
00:58:42,347 --> 00:58:46,787
I'm hopeful, and, um, I don't feel
distracted by all the things that

1175
00:58:46,787 --> 00:58:49,007
people are distracted with every day.

1176
00:58:49,007 --> 00:58:55,277
And, and that by itself,
despite any financial aspect, is

1177
00:58:55,577 --> 00:58:57,467
incredibly freeing and rewarding.

1178
00:58:58,157 --> 00:59:05,597
So, yeah, I, I, I, I hope, uh, I'm able
to, to convey that to other people that

1179
00:59:05,657 --> 00:59:07,547
I think that is the main invitation.

1180
00:59:08,357 --> 00:59:08,867
Um.

1181
00:59:09,392 --> 00:59:12,092
As to how, how you can
free your mind more.

1182
00:59:13,322 --> 00:59:13,592
Anja: Yep.

1183
00:59:13,952 --> 00:59:15,272
It's a peaceful life.

1184
00:59:15,542 --> 00:59:16,712
Thank you for your time.

1185
00:59:16,952 --> 00:59:17,372
Bram: Of course.

1186
00:59:17,462 --> 00:59:17,972
Thank you.

1187
00:59:17,972 --> 00:59:19,472
And uh, really enjoyed it.

1188
00:59:19,652 --> 00:59:19,922
Cheers.

1189
00:59:20,582 --> 00:59:21,092
Anja: Likewise.

1190
00:59:21,359 --> 00:59:23,849
Speaker: Still here you
are one of the good ones.

1191
00:59:24,329 --> 00:59:26,969
We'll be back next week
with a brand new episode.

1192
00:59:27,329 --> 00:59:31,049
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the noise, consider supporting us

1193
00:59:31,049 --> 00:59:33,299
directly via the Lightning QR code.

1194
00:59:33,809 --> 00:59:35,849
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1195
00:59:36,239 --> 00:59:37,589
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1196
00:59:37,889 --> 00:59:39,119
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1197
00:59:39,229 --> 00:59:44,509
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1198
00:59:45,559 --> 00:59:50,389
Until next week, take care of yourself
and your money and stay decentralized.