1 (8s):
I'm

2 (9s):
Jen Bosworth from

1 (10s):
This, and I'm Gina pci.

3 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand

1 (15s):
It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

3 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous? Yet?

0 (32s):
I

1 (32s):
Finally

2 (32s):
Looked at like, because we're moving and you know, bought a house and all that, I was like scared to look at the credit card balance. I don't know if you've ever had that, where you're like, I dunno, I can

1 (44s):
Wait. Wait. Have I ever, I, I think I've had that every single day of my, I have had that every single day of my life since I worked at Express and told myself I deserved an express credit card baby. I was getting 40% off thinking to myself like, man, this is basically like doing stuff for free. And not only did I max out that card, I basically had to use my entire paycheck every time. Okay. To

2 (1m 13s):
Pay off my, I feel I am talking to a, a comrade here and I, I just was like, I've been using this card a lot. And so I looked and it wasn't as, it wasn't as bad as I thought, but it was, it was bad. Don't get me wrong. But it's also like, again, if I'm gonna practice what I preach, which is like get the data, you sort of have to just face and like face the fear. And I was talking to myself the whole time the page is loading. I'm like, it's better to know than to not know you can do this. So like, reparenting myself or just parenting myself and it was, it was not outrageous, but I was like, okay, that's gonna, it's gonna put a kibosh on going to Costco as much.

1 (1m 54s):
Yeah, yeah. Well getting, buying a house and getting married or two times in life where you're like, suddenly it's not only the money that you have to spend on that thing, it's the money that you have to spend around the whole thing. Yes. Like whether it's I have to take a cab to sign the closing papers or I have to buy all new kitchen utensils. Correct. You know, that kinda shit.

2 (2m 14s):
It's sort of like, yeah, the tentacles of this purchase, I would say 10 outta 10 better than getting married. But That was a nightmare. And like that my mom was sick and like, it was just awful. Like my wedding was not a good memory. Like not a good memory. Like I don't like looking at my wedding pictures. We knew my mom was gonna die. We found out the day after my wedding shower that she had terminal cancer basically, and I wanted to cancel the wedding and she was like, f you, you're not, if you wanna pay me back $50,000. Which at the time I thought was so much and it is a lot, but people spend way more.

2 (2m 56s):
But anyway, for me it was a lot. And I was like, I'm not paying her ass back. 50,000. So we had the wedding. So all this to say the house has actually been a much more enjoyable experience. However the funds it, it, it just goes, I mean, I totally understand how people, you know, my banker was saying that most like the average American and by average American who knows what the fuck they use as markers, but I don't know is in I shit you not has a debt balance of anywhere from 75,000 to 200,000.

1 (3m 32s):
This does, this does not phase me whatsoever. This Yeah. I I have no trouble believing that. I was going to say, well congratulations to you and Miles on going from being debt free to a debt that you won't be able to pay off for at least 30 years. But listen, it's not a bad debt to have. It's usually like a pretty decent interest rate and it's an investment.

2 (3m 52s):
Yeah. And we literally found out that, yeah, there was a article published in the New York Times that was like Ventura, the last affordable California beach town.

1 (4m 7s):
Wow. Getting in clutch probably in 20 years you're gonna be able to sell it for like five bajillion dollars.

2 (4m 13s):
Like I'll be Jeff Basils walking around with my small dick and my cowboy hat on or whatever the fuck

1 (4m 20s):
To answer your question or maybe to make you feel better about the debt thing. Like I have a note on my phone that just lists, you know, where we are and I update it basically like every month. Whoa. And I was so happy when I started doing this and I was getting things, you know, like some credit cards for example, I had a credit card from a furniture store that had a 27% interest rate. Like why on earth was I Yeah, seriously. I'm sure that's what the express one was too. Any, any kinda like store charge is just, you'll you'll pay $10,000 for your whatever 2000

2 (4m 54s):
Thing. Oh my God.

1 (4m 57s):
But I still, we still owe for for med school.

2 (5m 2s):
Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.

1 (5m 4s):
$90,000. Yeah. You know, and it cost, it cost like 400,000 or $500,000 and it's the, the year he graduated was the year before they capped medical student debt the year before. And, and in fact, my social work degree, I'm still paying, I still owe $9,000. That's better than anything else than it's ever been. That's, this is the end of my student loan debt.

2 (5m 36s):
Hopefully. Yeah. Listen, I, the smartest thing I ever did this and we've had, we had a whole episode on dead on on our podcast, but the smartest thing I ever did was when the, the day we sold my mother's house, I literally took the check from the house sale, they wired it into my bank account. I went to my bank and did, before it touched anything, I said, take 50,000 of that and please pay these people, these asshole private lenders today. And they did. And I was, and I literally wrote a note to them saying, go fuck yourselves, here's your money. And my banker was like, are you sure you wanna put that in the memo? I'm like, put it in the memo. I think I didn't say fuck.

2 (6m 16s):
I said F you. I said F you cuz I was scared to get sued. So if I'm honest, it was like, well

1 (6m 21s):
That, it's such a good feeling to pay off a debt like that. Like I, I, I, I salivate for the day. I can, we can pay off all these student loan, you know, it's, it's a slog. It's just a real slog. And you know, my dad was really, in some ways he was good with money. He was the first person to tell me, oh, never, never. I, I wanted to take him out to lunch and I had to pay for it on my credit card. He's, he's like, no, if you cannot afford to go out to lunch, don't go out to lunch. Don't put lunch on your credit card In some ways. So in that way he was good, but then he died penniless because he invested all of his money and in one thing. So there's that,

2 (6m 59s):
This is a really good thing just to to point out that people, I'm noticing people are really good at some things in the same genre, parts of something in the same genre and terrible at other parts in the same thing.

1 (7m 13s):
I guess the point is like, it's really hard to talk about money. It's really hard to teach your kids about money. It's really hard to practice what you preach about money. Like, it's all just really hard because when we feel, you know, my thing that I get into is like, oh, but I deserve this because I've whatever, I've worked hard or I've gone absolutely. You know, I I really get into this like justification stuff with money and I'm better about it now than I ever have been, but it's a battle.

2 (7m 40s):
Yeah, it's a battle. And, and what I was gonna ask was like, in terms of like, do you do this? Okay, so I find this really weird. I know people because the, the lotto power ball, right? Was that was at two 1.2 billion. I don't know if you knew that. So after taxes and shit, you'd walk away with 600 million or something, I don't know. But okay, so I bought tickets. I I never buy lot tickets, but I did. And of course we won $5 and Doris ate the fucking ticket. That motherfucker, I couldn't even get the five. So that's like God's way of saying like, I'm a see bitch, stop all this. So, so fine. But I know people, Gina, who planned out what they would do with the money as a couple, like they had lists of people, they had lists of like where would the money would go and what it would do.

2 (8m 35s):
Gina, do you, would you do this? Seems I just, I never get into it. Like I'm never so hopeful or presumptuous that I'm gonna win anyway. They had like things they were gonna do with this money that they hadn't won. I'm like, I think this,

1 (8m 51s):
It's kinda like when you played Mash when you were on the bus going to a field trip, you're just like, I'm gonna gonna live in a mansion. I'm gonna have 36 kids. Yes. Like, it's kind of that that's what it's it's that, it's like a self soothing thing of like, wouldn't it be, my kids are constantly saying, you know, if somebody gave you one, their thing is usually like, how much would you have to be paid to do this disgusting

2 (9m 11s):
Thing? Oh right. That's like, and

1 (9m 12s):
My husband, my whole family loves these hypotheticals. I can't stand them, but they're always asking me these hypotheticals and my husband's thing is always like, you have to spend 5 million today. And it, and he has all these rules about it. Like, and it can't be to pay off your debt or, you know, it's just gotta be, you know, they invest so much, it must really be soothing to them because the way they pressure me about what my answers are is like, this is not a real thing.

2 (9m 39s):
Well that's, yeah. I was like, wait, you're doing what? They're like, yeah, like we wouldn't give this person, we would do this. And I'm like, you fools, none of us are winning anything. This is a racket. What? You're actually spending more than three minutes. Well here I am talking about it, but they like got paper and pen out and like did a and I was like, I would much rather spend that time like looking at, I don't know, discount pet probiotic treats online. I mean I just don't, it's not, it's not soothing to me. I guess you're right, you said it. Everyone has different self soothing mechanisms and mine is not to plan out what my six, my lotto, where you have the better chances, right. They say of being struck by lightning twice than winning the lato.

1 (10m 22s):
Yeah. My version of that was more like when I was dating my gay boyfriend in high school being like, this is what our wedding is gonna look like. And his mom really great Italian cook. So we're,

2 (10m 31s):
Oh wait, wait, what about the Italian cooks?

1 (10m 35s):
Well, his mom is a, was a great Italian cook, so I wasn't like, she's gonna cater it and this is what I'm looking at wedding mag, I was 16 years old dating this boy. So obviously gay. Everybody but me knew he was gay. Well actually everybody but me and him. It took him a while to figure it out too. Yeah.

2 (10m 54s):
Well at least that's what was

1 (10m 56s):
Always doing. I was always like investing in, yeah, I was always investing in fantasy relationships. That was my, I

2 (11m 3s):
Think that was my

1 (11m 3s):
Thing too. You know, what's my lot of money?

2 (11m 5s):
I, I mean I literally, I literally was thinking about like, what, just now when you were talking like, what's my version of that? I, this is so sad. This is so sad. It's gonna be so telling. And if like the, the people that listen to this podcast are gonna be like, oh, bz, I would fantasize about if I just, ugh, this is breaking my own heart. If I just hadn't eaten this, how, how much skinnier I would've been. Like if I took away all the, this is so crazy. I can't believe I'm admitting this, but like as a teenager I'd be like, if I just took away all the m and ms I've ever eaten, I wonder how much thinner I, I mean like that's how I invested my brain power.

2 (11m 46s):
That is not, it's so sad. It's also, it's just so sad. It's so sad. So anyway, that was my verdict.

1 (11m 52s):
Yeah. We all wasted so much time on that. Like, and I regret every second I spent writing down what I ate or writing keeping. I one time used to keep like a journal that I would take to the gym and I would write down like how long I ran and how many reps I'd, it's just so sad, right? Like, yeah. This is kind of what people, I mean, and I'll say like, no surprise to anybody, but I'll say I feel like this is what women get reduced to a lot. Just like counting your ins and your outs. And I'm on season two of the vow, the N XM documentary.

2 (12m 26s):
Yeah. I haven't

1 (12m 27s):
Better, yeah, it's better than season one because it's all about the Nancy Salzman factor. Cuz I, the whole time I was going like, well where is Nancy Salzman on this? And are they together? And, and he did her as dirt. Well he did her the dirtiest in a way because he, he's really a parasite. And he took her smarts and her professional training and her great ideas and took, took them over. Now you could argue that maybe she couldn't have gotten anywhere without his charisma. So there's, there's that. But he took all of her stuff and turned it into a sex cult so that now she's wearing an ankle bracelet.

1 (13m 9s):
I mean, he's in prison granted, but she's wearing an ankle bracelet and has lost her relationship with one of her daughters. You know, he's, he just completely destroyed everything. And, and I, and I just thought when I was watching it, like, yeah, this is the position that so many women, and maybe men too, but so many women find themselves in of like, you know, I can have the greatest idea in the world and I can be so full of like power and talent and knowledge, but if I meet the right person who meets my coding for like, I wanna app, I want you to approve of me. Yeah. All of my senses go out the window and my only focus is like making you happy.

2 (13m 45s):
And then look at it. I mean totally. And, and you, we see that. I was just like relating it back to like our theater school experience. It's the same thing. It's like, if I just do this, then I'm discovered it's the same thing. Like I am just this undiscovered blob. I know how great I am, but nobody else does and I'm just waiting. Or really, it's like I know how shitty I am, but like there's, I'm like this. I just am waiting for the right manager, the right agent, the right man, the right teacher to see me, to see that raw talent and that good idea and do something with it. God, it's just

1 (14m 21s):
Swoop down and pick carry in their talents.

2 (14m 25s):
Yeah. And the older kill me right on the way back to the nest. All my ideas kill.

4 (14m 35s):
Oh,

2 (14m 36s):
Let me run this by you.

1 (14m 41s):
Here's the thing I wanted to run by you. I am, I am flirting with a, a notion of starting an another very small scale, like a 10 or 15 minute long podcast Wow. That I would call something like 12 weird questions and basically it would just be having people on. I can't decide if it would be, I would pick one theme and ask a bunch of questions related to that theme. Or it would, they would just be random questions. But I'm gonna do it first with you. Okay. Because I, I thought of a bunch of questions that related to parenting.

1 (15m 22s):
Now I am not gonna let on, I'm not gonna pipe in. I'm just gonna have you answer,

2 (15m 27s):
Oh God, these questions brilliant. Okay. Are we gonna do it right now?

1 (15m 32s):
We're gonna do it right now. When you were a kid, did your, and you had clubs or extracurriculars or whatever, did your parents let you quit things if you wanted to?

2 (15m 42s):
Yes. With massive amounts of guilt and shame. You

1 (15m 46s):
Meaning like they'd say, oh, if that's what you wanted to, I guess you're gonna ruin your life. That kinda thing.

2 (15m 49s):
Awful. I paid this good money. You're, I didn't raise a quitter, but I guess if you, oh God. So yes and no, right? Like they wanted, yeah. It was awful.

1 (15m 58s):
So it was like very confusing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. How much chores did you have to do as a kid?

2 (16m 8s):
I would say minimal, but the chores we did do were like the dumbest things. Like my mom was just so pissed. We weren't doing anything that she would make us do stupid ass shit. Like make sure the ice cube trays were filled in this freezer and if they weren't, we had to I believe dump out half the ice and refill it. It was stupid shit. But yeah, minimal, I would say minimal. And I complained about everyone and some of them were weird.

1 (16m 35s):
Was it daily? Weekly. Weekly. Did you

2 (16m 37s):
Have cleaning your room then? Yeah. Yeah. Weekly. It was supposed to. Teenage years I refused. My sister and I ganged up by my mom and we're literally like, fuck you We're not doing any, we were awful. Yeah. So we, she tried, but my dad did nothing. So yeah.

1 (16m 50s):
Okay. So she was doing it on her own. When did you start doing your own laundry?

2 (16m 56s):
Oh shit, that's a great question. I think I was probably in sixth, like middle school. Sixth grade.

1 (17m 2s):
Okay. Oh, that's, yeah. Okay. That's impressive. Did your parents provide you with every meal of the day and up to what age?

2 (17m 9s):
Oh no. I mean my

1 (17m 10s):
Meaning like, you know, give you breakfast a like send you to school with lunch or buy it and then make you dinner at

2 (17m 17s):
Night until, yes until high school. So high school started and literally we've talked on the podcast about how like I ate beef bags and Doritos, however it was provided, you know what I mean? Like, she bought the shit and then we threw it into a bag. But I think high school we were really on our own.

1 (17m 35s):
What kind of consequences did you get when you broke a rule?

2 (17m 41s):
I feel like it's so funny having an older sister. Okay. So I'm just trying to like focus on myself. Cuz I feel like my sister didn't, she broke every rule and there were no consequences. But I'm also know that I'm making part of that up. Do you know what I mean? So, okay, for me, I'm gonna talk about myself specifically. I think it was yelling, there was a lot of yelling, screaming were the consequences. My mom would hit us when she couldn't use words anymore. And, and frankly I don't blame her actually. I mean, I, I'm not saying it's right, but I, I I, we were terrible. So yelling, screaming, hitting, and I believe there was probably like threats of things taken away.

2 (18m 24s):
I don't know that they ever were like, like you can't use my car. You know, you're not gonna be able to use the car if you don't, if you, because you were like awful. And then, but I think it was mostly yelling and screaming Gina mostly.

1 (18m 39s):
So it's unreliable, unpredictable, inconsistent and emotional

2 (18m 44s):
That's, there was no, yup. It was no, there was no logic or reasoning at all in my parents' parenting style of consequences and that, oh, it was the worst. Screaming, a lot of screaming. Okay,

1 (18m 58s):
Okay. Again, was that only your mom or did your dad get in on the consequence

2 (19m 2s):
Too? My dad, my favorite consequence story was me at 16. My sister had a boy over. This was so crazy. The only time I've heard my dad go crazy. Okay. I was upstairs and I heard a commotion. It was like seven in the morning. Apparently my sister like dated like older guys in bands, right? Whatever. She was in high school. So she was a senior, I was a junior. She had some guy come over and spend the night. He was supposed to be spending the night downstairs. Right. Like he's vis, I dunno why my parents left that happen. But anyway, apparently in the middle of the night my sister went fucking downstairs and slept with him. I don't know what they did, but they were in the same bed when my fucking six, nine father came downstairs in the morning.

2 (19m 45s):
What the fuck? Why don't you sneak back the fuck up you dummies unless you wanna get caught. Right? And I hear this screaming from my father who never screamed. My dad, I've only heard him. That was the only time. And he was said, if you wanna fuck my daughter, it's not gonna be in my own house. It was a whole thing. I literally got my shit and like ran to school and I never ran to school. I like got out of the house. So that was the only time I've ever heard my father yell,

1 (20m 10s):
Okay, go check. I mean, it sounds like it was traumatizing, but at the same time I would've probably had the same response. What things were considered your rights versus your privileges? Like what, what was, I mean, maybe your parents didn't use the language of like, this is a privilege, not a right, but looking back, can you identify things that yes, you were always gonna get versus they were a

2 (20m 30s):
Privilege. We were always gonna get food, clothing, a place to live. Although sometimes I was like, they're gonna kick my sister, we're gonna get kicked out. But no, but food, all food, clothing, shelter, those things and then literally was made to seem like everything else was a huge privilege.

1 (20m 49s):
Okay. But it doesn't sound like those things were necessarily like part of the consequences, given that your consequences were always emotional and not really. Okay. What was your curfew and were there any limits on what you could do while you were out of the house?

2 (21m 2s):
No, so, so we, our, I, I think my curfew was 11 when I was in high school. And then, but they didn't, let me tell you something, my parents didn't fucking know what the fuck was going on when I left that house. So they, I don't know where they were, but they didn't, there was no cell phones. I literally ran the streets of mean Evanston from any time after school on the, I think and like weeknights were different, right? Like weeknights most deaf, we couldn't be out past like nine or 10, right. Like in terms, and it had to be like school related, like homework and shit like that. On the weekends it was like, I mean I was drinking alcohol in eighth grade on the weekends my friend had a wine cellar and we would steal wine.

2 (21m 48s):
I mean, it was crazy with my friends. We were not like, I'm still friends. Like best, you know, like my best friend from that time was Amber and I'm still friends with her and we talk about like the weird shit that we did. She was arrested multiple times in or when at in the patty wagon for or whatever. Oh yeah. We were like not good kids, but I was always like the tag along kid. But no, my parents didn't fucking know shit. And we were doing crazy shit. People were getting, you know, pregnant in eighth grade. I wasn't, I didn't, I didn't have sex until grade. Right,

1 (22m 21s):
Right. No, but other kids were. Yeah. Well, so the reason that my questions today are all about like, how you were parented is, you know, I think a lot of people, a lot of parents of our generation, I mean like not our parents generation but us, are making really different choices than their parents made with them. Because this is widely understood that the Gen Xers were just feral and yes, like left to do whatever they wanted. And people have a variety of opinions about whether or not that was good or bad. With the technology age, I can find, I can pinpoint where my child is at any moment because I have find my iPhone, I can see literally where they are.

1 (23m 6s):
So for example, when my son goes out and I check in on him to see where he is, I don't call him, I just look up, find my iPhone and you know, we, we, we don't live very far from the border to the state of New York, but every time I look and he's in New York, I'm like, is this okay?

2 (23m 24s):
Yeah. Can he,

1 (23m 25s):
I, it never occurred to me, you know, that I, that I would, I would just assume like he would be hanging out in our town. It didn't occur to me that he'd be going, you know,

2 (23m 34s):
Did they go into Manhattan? So

1 (23m 35s):
Anyway, no, no. They just, they're, they're like in Westchester County kind of area. But it's two things. It's parenting differently than I was parented. But also, also, I was not a kid who I like broke no rules. You know, I never drank in high school, I never did drugs. I had a boyfriend, but I didn't sleep with him until I was a senior. I, you know, I, I just, there wasn't, so it's all, and then Aaron's experience was kind actually really similar to yours. In fact, I think he would've answered every single question the same as you did. Which I find really fascinating. I think, I think there is an element too of, I don't know if it's class or

2 (24m 18s):
Yes, it's the store, the north store dude of, of Illinois. Okay. Was fucking like a John Hughes movie on crack. Like, you, you, you're like, what? You're doing what? Yeah, we got a hotel room in seventh grade. My friends, or maybe eighth grade, I don't remember eighth grade, my friend's parents got us a hotel. They were in Lake Geneva and they had a house in Lake Geneva. Got us a hotel room on the other side of town in eighth.

1 (24m 53s):
I'm a go, I, I'm, I'm completely,

2 (24m 56s):
I'm drinking vodka and in a hotel room in, in, I think it was eighth grade, maybe freshman year. And I was like, yeah, wasted in a hotel room in Lake Geneva. My parents didn't also, lemme tell you something. We smoked cigarettes, smoked, smoked, smoked freshman year, smoked sophomore year. I would come home. So my friends, my twin friends had the all third floor all to themselves. We'd smoke, we'd drank, we did whatever. Then I'd go home, I'd reek of cigarettes. My mom would ask nothing. She smoked too. So what she could say. But still she, yeah,

1 (25m 32s):
So, okay, well, so basically where I live in the context in which I'm parenting is that is the north shore. But I wasn't raised here or there. And, and my, and it's not, I'm not even gonna really say my parents are strict to me, like strict parents are. I have a strict definition of strict, to me, a strict is like, you have to have these certain grades and you have to do these cho you know, which is kind of how I try to parent. I try to make everybody really accountable for their actions. I try not that I'm, I succeed at it. It's just always like, it's always my intention. It's always my goal to get there. But Aaron was raised on the North shore and he just has, or like, or like his thing is his parents were all about the grades.

1 (26m 18s):
So he thinks it's unacceptable that anybody should have anything less than an A. But now we have this thing where we can see their grades every day. We can see their grades in progress.

2 (26m 28s):
Oh my God. It's

1 (26m 29s):
Not like when you got the report card mailed home. It's like I know what their grades are every single day and we have this fight at the beginning of every term because if there's only been one assignment and they didn't do it, or they didn't do well on it, they have like a d or an they're going and they're going. But mom, it's, it's, it's only been one, you know, we just started the term like there's only one assignment and you know, to me I'm going, this is f this is unacceptable. You can't have this. So there's certain things that I feel very strict about and then other things that I feel lax about and I'm just like, yeah, I guess I'm just kind of, we humans, we compare ourselves to other people. I'm just really curious like how other people are doing it and how other people had it done for

2 (27m 4s):
Them. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what I would do. I know the thing about the grades. Cause my friend Gisa has a daughter and, and they, she looks at her grades. You can look at 'em every day and like gi I don't know if she looks at 'em every day or not. I have no idea. But I would be like obsessing, you know, why I would be obsessing because for me it would be like a total reflection on me. That's it. I mean, I would be worried about the kid, like 10%, maybe 25. But most of it would be, I, I mean I got a grooming report about Doris, like how she did it grooming and I, and they give you a report card and I was having a panic attack when they said they were gonna give me a grooming report.

2 (27m 48s):
I'm like, did she do? And when I saw it, said well behaved, I like relaxed. I didn't care what the rest of the report said. So I, I, that is not, that is weird. And for me, I'm saying and I think that's how I'd be as a parent and what I don't think my heart would take.

1 (28m 18s):
Today on the podcast we are talking to Kelly Curran. Kelly is an actor from a very special program at Fordham University that I can't wait for you guys to hear all about. She is on the Gilded age season two of which just finished filming and should be out in the spring. So we're so excited to share this conversation that we had with Kelly cur, please enjoy

2 (28m 50s):
What the fuck is happening here. Anyway, it's like the wild west. We should start but, well this isn't hbm. Okay, so I just got a email from my ophthalmologist cause I had gone in and like, ah, my new, you know, I have these like Jeffrey Dahmer serial killer glasses that I love, but like, they're crooked, right? So I went in to fix them. I literally got an email that said, dear Jen, your face is crooked. Not the glasses. No, no, it's perfect.

1 (29m 23s):
I'm

2 (29m 24s):
Sorry. It's like super, it's like super a metaphor for my life. Like, it's like you're actually the problem, not the glasses. Hilarious. Anyway, go ahead with your start. Wait, do they

1 (29m 36s):
Wait, I wait, I'm sorry. Now that you brought this up. I have

2 (29m 39s):
To like, it's like really bizarre. Cause I noticed I wore him on a self-tape. I had a self tape for something and I was like, this is really weird. Like, they look straight and they put him on and my reader was like, eh, let's just do it. And I was like, yeah, but, so I'm like tilting my head in the tape. Yeah, I could figure it out. So I like go all indignant to the, the place in Pasadena. I'm like, Hey, my glasses that I paid $350, they're crooked. I went through this whole thing and then the ophthalmologist took measurements and then did some stuff and said, okay, we'll replace them. But like, let me, and then I literally just got an email that says, Jen, your face is crooked. Not the glasses. Love Dr. Lee.

2 (30m 19s):
Or no, not love, not love from Dr. Lee. And I was like,

1 (30m 23s):
Oh, I love it so much. You'll have to do the thing like people have to do if they have one leg shorter than the other, they have to get a lift in their shoe. You need to get a little pad put on one side. The problem

2 (30m 32s):
Is, they didn't tell me like what part of my fucking face is. So it could be the eyebrow. I mean, I have these weird eyebrows that thanks to my Columbian mom, I, it could be all sorts of fucking defects in me, but like now I'm like, this

1 (30m 47s):
What a journey we're on already this morning. What a journey. So congratulations Kelly Kern, you survived theater school. Woo.

2 (30m 54s):
Woohoo. Very, very, very is is like an understatement, right? You're thriving.

5 (31m 2s):
Oh my gosh. It's, it's wild. It's been, it's been amazing. It's been an amazing couple of years, but it's been like an amazing journey since the beginning and not without its extreme emotional ups and downs and periods of unemployment and dozens and dozens of day jobs and all that stuff. But I certainly feel like very blessed, especially the last few years during the pandemic to have this wonderful job on, on the gilded age to have like a consistent, steady job. It's just like such a blessing.

1 (31m 37s):
So wonderful. And this is exactly what I wanted to ask you about because I don't think, I don't think people are naive to the fact that nobody's an overnight success and everybody has, you know, tons and tons and tons of years of training and hard luck and experiences behind them. But I do love to just tell that story a little bit more for, for people, you know, how long did you feel like you were in that phase where maybe every six months you go, should I really be doing this?

5 (32m 5s):
Oh, you know, it's a, it's, it's funny, I, the one thing that I think has like allowed me to survive in this profession is like this sort of astonishing, mysterious faith that this is the, the highest expression of myself in the world. That this is the thing that most aligned with what, with what I'm supposed to be doing. So there's always been that through line just in my center, even through the period of unemployment even like, yeah, like even when I had to, even when I've, you know, didn't get enough weeks to earn my health insurance or you know, all those things or I was working day jobs that I just like, that were just like destroying my soul.

5 (32m 54s):
You know what I mean? Even in those periods, I, I, it never became a thing where I was like, I should stop. I should give this.

2 (33m 2s):
What what did you do? What was the thought then? Like, like say you're at the shithole day job that's paying your bills probably barely in, in Manhattan or whatever, but like you're doing, what is the thing you weren't like, oh I'm gonna stop, but like what was the thing that went through your head? Like, just hold on or how did you get through?

5 (33m 20s):
Yeah, I think it was just like, okay, what are the pillars that keep you healthy, that keep you grounded, that keep you curious? Like what are those things? And then it was like finding ways to stay connected to the community of people making theater that I found interesting. You know, it was like finding ways to like, to be young enough to get like student discounts or volunteer to do stage readings. Like, you know, read the stage directions of a stage reading or volunteer to be like an usher whatever. And just clinging to these opportunities to be a part of what I came here to do. Even if that part was very peripheral or even if it was as a spectator. So

2 (33m 58s):
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is like, there was like a sense like what I'm getting from this is this, like your ego didn't, cause most people what happens is the ego says or whatever, and I'm not even saying it's a bad thing, but ego is like, fuck this shit. Like I am now whatever age I wanna be earning enough and making a living and then they pivot and do something else. But it sounds like you were still able, like the word periphery is really interesting cuz there's not a lot of people that can stand to be, especially artists and actors particularly can stand to be on the periphery without being on the stage or the thing or the tv. So it sounds like you had some kind of thing where it was like this is still part of the action, right?

2 (34m 40s):
Like being a stage ringer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

5 (34m 43s):
Yeah. Absolutely. And it was still, I still found things nourishing, like seeing like a bad play. You're always like, oh my god, you know, or whatever. Like seeing some terrible production, obviously that's not the case, but, but I would still kind of, I would get nourishment from seeing something that I thought, yes, that's, that's what I wanna be doing and how do I, and then it would get my mind going, like how do I create that opportunity? And I would do kind of audacious things. Like I would reach out to people who were artistic directors or, and I would say, I'm really interested in your work. I've seen it. Would you like to get coffee? I did that a few times to people and I've been like, I'm, I went to Fordham, I'm like a young actor and I'm really inspired by what you do. And I was, I don't even know if I do that now.

5 (35m 23s):
You know what I mean? Like at this point

2 (35m 25s):
In my, I reach out on social media,

5 (35m 26s):
I think I've grown

2 (35m 27s):
Higher. You should do it because now you're on a show. So now you can just even do it even more like people would meet with you. But I do it, I'm nobody nowhere. And I'm over here and I'm like, Hey, show runner. And they usually, if you write a good enough email, they'll take you up on it. Now look, they may not give you a job or anything, but that's what we're going for. We're going for the, we're trying to get information. So you were,

5 (35m 49s):
Yes and connection.

2 (35m 51s):
It sounds like connection. And the other thing, Gina, we've had people on that also talk about this, where the theater is the glue that keeps them from losing their mind as they pursue higher paying film, tv, whatever, jobs. So you're part of a theater, right? You do a lot of theater still,

5 (36m 8s):
Right? I do a lot of theater. Yeah. And that was really how I started. I once actually, I once went back to Fordham. They asked me to come back and speak to their like senior class, you know, of theater students and stuff. And, and it was like a senior audition class that was being run by a taught, excuse me, by a casting director. And I remember this casting director saying to me at the time, she's like, you're, it's so funny. You've got this very like, old tiny career that doesn't seem to happen that much anymore. It's sort of like the, the trajectory of like a Cherry Jones or an Allison Janney of like, you know, I got out of school, I landed this amazing job with this company called The Acting Company, that they would, they would take young actors, usually like recently graduated actors from different programs, do plays in repertory and tour the country and then bring them back to New York for an off-Broadway run and the opportunity to perform in front of the New York.

2 (37m 0s):
What the hell? I mean, I saw this

5 (37m 2s):
Social, oh my

2 (37m 3s):
Kelly. But I, this is amazing. And why is it only from New York programs? Why didn't we do this?

5 (37m 11s):
No, I don't believe so.

2 (37m 12s):
Why didn't we do this? So many questions, but, okay. So let's back up a little bit. So you're, where are you from and how did you end up at Fordham's? Cause that is, I really wanna know that. Okay. Before I get to off,

5 (37m 26s):
So I'm from,

6 (37m 28s):
I'm from upstate

5 (37m 29s):
New York, just outside sort of, just outside of Albany, New York. And I, I did theater in high school and I loved it. But we did, we did a lot of musicals at my school and, and different like, you know, youth theater stuff around Albany growing up. They had a lot of musical programs. And I have an older sister who is an incredible singer. She is amazing. She is like, she's, she's really marvelous. And so I grew up with my older sister being like this, you know, star singer, actress person. And and I was always like, oh, Mikayla's little sister.

5 (38m 10s):
Mikayla's little sister. Yeah. She does the plays too. You know what I mean? And so when it came time to go to school, I think, I think I thought like, oh, I should do something practical, which like, get a, get a degree in English that's practical.

6 (38m 30s):
Really. Really. I was really the, so I entered

5 (38m 35s):
Fordham as an intended English major and I knew they had like a theater program there, but I didn't necessarily know how great it was. It was kind of pure luck that I ended up going to Fordham at Lincoln Center because I visited it and I just like loved the energy. I don't know how to describe it other than like, I got there and I felt at home in a way that I didn't on a lot of other of my college campus visits. And so when I got accepted, I, I chose to go there and I thought, oh, I'll start as a drama minor. I'll take some classes and I'll audition for some plays to, to make friends and meet people. And I got there and I started classes and I, and I started auditioning for plays and I got very quickly cast in a lot of plays and I started, of

2 (39m 21s):
Course you did.

5 (39m 22s):
Just like,

2 (39m 23s):
Here's the other thing, here's the other thing that I'm really aware of. Cause I had a sister who was like the star of my family and like what happens is the best thing that can happen to us and is that we can go away from the family and see, because I got to school and was like, well wait a second, I have, I'm good at this too. And it's no fault of theirs. It's not about them. It's about like being like, wait, I can shine in this way. I'm so glad that you like went away from home. You know what I'm saying? Yes,

5 (39m 53s):
Yes, exactly.

2 (39m 54s):
You got there and like you, you're like, I'll just, we have so many guests that are like, I'll just dabble. Like I'll just audition. Right. You know, like I'll just see what happens and then they're like cast immediately. So what was the first thing you were cast in at Fordham? Do you remember?

5 (40m 9s):
Oh my gosh, yes. Oh my gosh. It was a Sarah Kane play. It was 4 48 psychosis. Have you, do you know this? Yeah. It's like a very, very dark place. Old

2 (40m 21s):
Move for Ford Bold.

5 (40m 24s):
Yes, it was, it was a student directed production. So they did, so they had a number of student directed productions throughout the year and then they had like four main stage productions where professional directors would come in and direct ORs or are some of our professors who were also professional director, you know, would come in and direct the plays. But, but they had like so many student productions and that's what was amazing about it is it was, there was like always something happening and so much you could potentially be a part of. And, and it was a kind of a small program. The classes were not particularly large I think. I think my graduating class by the time we got to the year I graduated was only like 12 actors.

2 (41m 5s):
Wow. Wait a minute. So this is, so this is Fordham at Lincoln Center? Yeah. Is that what you said? So that's where they'll program, even if you're an English person, you're English major, you're at Lincoln Center.

5 (41m 15s):
Yeah, yeah. I was, I think maybe you had the opportunity to be at either for, for different program, different courses of study. But the theater program was specifically located there and that was the campus that I visited and was like this, I like this one, I wanna go, I wanna go here. You

2 (41m 29s):
Know? But but you, you were still like an undercover actor, like when you started. Yes. If I were to go, I'm not gonna go Gina, but I always threatened to go to all these programs. But if I were to go, like when the English major still, you're at Lincoln Center is what you're telling me. Yes. That's amazing. Yeah. Right. So you get cast in the psychosis play. Yes. And are you like, this is where I belong, I'm a star? Or how do

5 (41m 55s):
That work? I dunno. I mean I think it took me a minute, but it took me like halfway through the first semester I think I started to be like, oh, you have a skill set. This is not just like what you did for fun extracurricularly as a kid. It was, but but it, but you have a skill. Like you are a peer of the people in this program and you excel at certain things. And I, I could sense that I excelled at, at heightened language texts in particular. Like there's something about rhythm and poetry and language that I just would get really excited by and love to, to to sort of dive into like a puzzle and try to figure out, you know, and, and it was like a particular thing that I was like, I finally started to be like, no, you're good at this.

5 (42m 44s):
And, and I think my, and I think my desire to, to do it finally sort of like overwhelmed all of the logical part of my brain that was like, this is a bad idea for your life. Like this is very, this is gonna be stressful and unstable and you don't know if you can, you know what I mean? And I think it took, it took a minute for my courage to sort of like outsize my logical brain that was like, you should do something more practical. You

1 (43m 14s):
Know? Cause there's something to that. There's, cause Boz was right to reference that we've, we've particularly like in the last six or seven interviews have been people who, they went for chemistry. They ended up doing this. They're saying to be said for not having that. Because for me, I had the expectation I was gonna be an actor from the time I was four years old. And everything that wasn't just automatic success was really surprising to me. And it like kind of knocked me down a peg each time. Like, but I just really, I just always thought that this is me and I'm gonna be an actor and that's all I'm ever gonna do. I'm never gonna have to do anything else. And I'm certainly never gonna encounter any adversity.

1 (43m 55s):
Yeah.

5 (43m 55s):
I was, I could totally see that there's something, there's something almost like a, like a strange beneficial thing of like being able to kind of discover in a stealth way of being able to kind of be like, let me slowly

2 (44m 10s):
Build this

5 (44m 11s):
Thing and see if it feels,

2 (44m 12s):
And you take the pressure off of, see that's the thing with, so is Ford m a conservatory?

5 (44m 18s):
No, that's the other interesting thing that I wanted to make sure I brought up with you guys is right. It's like, it's not, no, it's a Jesuit school, so it has a Jesuit core curriculum, so no matter what you're there for, you have to take a certain amount of classes in like sociology, anthropology, mathematics, science, all that stuff. And that holds true for the theater department and the, the Alvin Ailey Dance School is also affiliated with Fordham. So in our program we had students who were, who were in a conservatory dance program at Ailey school that we're also taking all of the core curriculum, like working so hard, like incredible artists, incredible athletes working so hard.

5 (44m 59s):
And, and that was something that we were all like right, you know, adjacent to and, and could watch and could see their performances and their training. And we were a program that that was just a ba but they found all these like wonderfully sneaky ways to, as part of, you know, your scene study class, you also had to do this weekly or biweekly movement lab or vocal lab, you know, so there were these extra classes that were just part of one grade that they somehow managed to like So you were getting all this training.

2 (45m 33s):
Yeah. What's very clear is that whoever was running that program was really, really astute Yes. At when you went there and really amazing at realizing that like, okay, like we're in this container, but that doesn't mean that we don't, we're not gonna become like a top contender in terms of training people for the theater and for, you know, as actors. Yes. And so that is, that is brilliant. It also speaks to looking outside the box for education for college students. Yes. So like you could say, most people also, Gina and I would say that come on the show that have like, I don't know about better, but like find their way, seem to investigate thoroughly the schools for the most part that they are going to and feel comfortable or at home despite like not about the conservatory, the name, the Yeah.

2 (46m 29s):
Whatever. It's mostly like, oh, I felt at home here. Like someone else was talking about the program in like Arkansas or somewhere where they're like, no, no, this is my jam. Yeah. Even though it's not the name. Totally. And not that Fordham doesn't have a name, but you know what I'm saying, not Juilliard

5 (46m 43s):
Say.

2 (46m 43s):
Right. And so anyway, so you're there. And then when are you, like, were you, like, is your experience at Fordham where, like you, were you like the jam, like the lead and all the things? Or did you play weird roles? Or what was your experience like as a student there?

5 (46m 57s):
Well, it was like an incredible, it was it, I was there during like these, these really incredible years with all these amazing actors. So by like my sophomore year I was getting a lot of great roles and a lot of parts both in the main stage and, and the student directed productions. And I think I could, I could feel that I was like, you know, among the people who were getting cast a lot. But yeah. But like there were incredible actors all of, in all of the classes around. So just to like, name, name a few, like particularly the women. Heather Lin was the year above me.

5 (47m 38s):
McKayla McManus, Taylor Shilling. Oh, Betty. Betty was, my god. I mean there, there was a whole, I mean, it was an incredible,

2 (47m 49s):
It's like magic. It's like those years you hear about, yeah. Yes. Those, those time periods

5 (47m 54s):
We get Yeah. Like really marvels and these are just the, these are just the people who are currently acting and have a certain amount of exposure. You know, I think like there were a lot of people there who were, you know, just as talented. That's a sort of a subjective thing who went on to do different things who for whatever reason, you know what I mean? These are just the ones that like, people will, people will probably recognize their names. Sure. But they're also,

2 (48m 16s):
They also happen to be like, really fucking good. Yes. Like, like also you guys, you guys are good actors, so it's not, it's not also a fluke. Like I always wanna say, like there's something about a magic period of time where you're just like, oh, this is like when step will started. Yes. Or like when, you know, you had John C. Riley and Jillian whatever at DePaul or like whatever, there's like a Jillian, there's like a time period. So okay. You were, you were ma you were in this sort of magic time period. Yeah. And it sounds like it worked.

5 (48m 48s):
Yes. Yes. And I think like the thing, and I know this is very, like I had, I had a good experience there. I felt very encouraged. I felt, I felt like safe as a creative person in, in the rooms there and stuff. So I know this is like not, you know, I don't mean to make this like a fluffy thing, but like I did have a really nourishing experience there. And I think like, part of it was because we were in New York City and because we had the, the director of the program at the time was this actor Lawrence Sacro who sort of came of age in the theater in the 1960s and like the downtown theater. And

2 (49m 23s):
He

5 (49m 24s):
Knew everybody. He knew everybody and he had a long career. And so he would, he would make a phone call, I think basically, I think this is probably how it worked. He would make a phone call and he would get actors to come in to teach our classes who happen to be in the city working on this or that. And, and so like our, like my scene study classes, not just like masterclass, but like semester long scene study classes were taught by Marion Salis and Kate Burton and my Shakespeare. Oh wow. My Shakespeare teacher was Roger Reese, like, I mean, just extraordinary teachers for whole semesters because it was like an adjunct thing. They could teach once a week on a Monday they could come in for three hours and teach and then go do their play on Broadway.

5 (50m 7s):
And, and so we had these teachers that are just like mind blowingly, you know,

1 (50m 13s):
By the way, this is the second time Kate Burton's name has come up on this podcast, Rodney to, it works with her at usc. She's a professor at USC right now. Oh,

5 (50m 23s):
She's amazing.

1 (50m 25s):
So Boz, earlier you used the word ego in describing something like what your reaction would've been versus somebody else. And it, and that just helped me to realize like there's a direct correlation between the height of the ego of the institution, which is usually higher at a conservatory. Like thinking there, there's that phrase in Spanish, like they think a lot a lot about themselves versus a program.

2 (50m 53s):
Yeah.

1 (50m 55s):
Versus a program that just like, Hey, let's do, you know, let's, let's have a, let's do a theater major. We're in New York. Like, there's no end to the amount of talent around here. I really feel like the more a programmer, you know, takes itself seriously and thinks it's so precious, you know, kind of the more you, you get that vibe and it's less nurturing. I guess that's what I'm getting at. It's so wonderful that you had a nurturing experience because I feel like that's more possible when there's less ego at play.

5 (51m 24s):
Yes, yes. I 100% I agree 100%. And that, that like sort of rings true in a lot of areas, you know what I mean? Like find that a lot that like,

2 (51m 33s):
So okay, so you're, you, you have all this exposure to these amazing teachers. You're at Fordham and then it comes time to graduate. Did you have like a showcase or how did that

5 (51m 47s):
So we have a showcase. It was very, it was pretty small. It was pretty, I don't know how many, you know, how many of like the big agencies or anything really showed up. And of course I was like deeply awkward about it. Like, I don't even remember the scenes I picked, but I remember thinking like in very quick hindsight I was like, that was a bad choice. Those were bad

2 (52m 9s):
Choices, you know? You know. Did you do okay? So did you do like Nikki Silver? I did Nikki Silver. Nikki

5 (52m 16s):
Silver. It was such a

2 (52m 18s):
Thing, right? It's like why it's not right. And I think there's, I was talking about child abuse at one point, like abusing a child, come on. But anyway, I tried, I tried to and remember what you did. No,

5 (52m 36s):
But I think I, I remember like resenting having to put myself in a casting box, you know what I mean? I remember feeling like that's what I had to do, even if that's like a false idea. I had that sense and I resented it and I was like, this is bullshit. I'm an actor. I'm supposed to be able to do anything. Like I don't wanna be a pigeonholed. And the tough thing is like that doesn't really help you when you're doing a showcase, having that mindset. But I was young and like, what do you you know, it's not like, yeah.

2 (53m 2s):
And also it's feisty and it's also speaks to your wanting to do a lot of things and it's, it's actually a good sort of fighting spirit thing.

5 (53m 11s):
Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad you think so. Oh,

2 (53m 14s):
Yeah. Like, look, Gina reminds me of, Gina reminds me of Gina was not, and I don't think being put in a box.

1 (53m 20s):
No, but yeah. But I had the same problem of like, I so didn't wanna put myself in the box. I didn't put myself in any category whatsoever. Didn't know who I was. Yeah. So then therefore didn't know how to sell myself to, you know, to anybody.

5 (53m 33s):
Right, right. And that's the thing, like having to figure out at, at that, at such a kind of tender age still, like who you, who you are, how you're perceived, what, you know, it was, it's a lot to do at a, at a time when you're kind of still very much sure. Evolving. So

2 (53m 53s):
Were you, like, this is whose career, like whose career were you looking at? Like a Cherry Jones and being like, I want that. Or did you, did you? Yeah. What did you wanna do when you graduated?

5 (54m 3s):
I wanted to do, and I thought I could, I didn't realize that I couldn't, I wanted to do theater forever. I wanted to do theater forever. And I wanted to, my ultimate goal was like, I wanna make a life out of doing theater and I want to be respected by my peers that I were. And that was like, that was like it. And, and I don't say it like that was really it. I was like, I was like, Fiona Haw, cherry Jones. I was like looking at these, these people and I was like, that's it. Like what they're doing is how I wanna spend my life and my time.

2 (54m 34s):
Right. Did you wanna start a theater company? Were you one of those types

5 (54m 38s):
At all? No. No. Not necessarily. I want, I think I, I would've liked being a part of a theater company, which is like what I did after I graduated. Like, so, so I think I, I started like, I had a couple meetings from the showcase and I started like freelancing with this very small agency that I got. The sense was like, not a, not a great situation, but I was like,

1 (54m 59s):
Okay, it's like some guy working out of his Winnebago being like, yeah, I know a ton of fancy director.

5 (55m 4s):
Like, you're like, where is

2 (55m 6s):
This office and what am I, you're like, it's in, yeah. So they've got like a one 800 number.

1 (55m 13s):
Exactly.

5 (55m 14s):
Something doesn't fit

2 (55m 15s):
Right.

5 (55m 16s):
So like I, I knew that I was like a little bit on my own and I was like incredibly scared and incredibly like overwhelmed. Like how, what's the first step after this? And I, I wrote, right after I graduated, I wrote like, you know, snail mail letters with my headshot to, to three different companies asking for an audition, including theater companies. Yep. The, the non-equity company of the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, the non-equity ensemble of Shakespeare in the park. Cuz I knew they did non-equity ensemble who understudied the show. And, and then this company, the acting company, which is an equity company, but I knew that you could get accepted and then they would give you your equity card if you got into the show.

5 (56m 2s):
And so I had, and so, and I got these auditions. I managed to get the auditions, wait,

2 (56m 6s):
Wait, stop, stop, stop. So you wrote snail mail and you were like, Hey, I just graduated. This is who I am, here's my headshot. Can I come and audition? And I just wanna put it out there because I'm a huge cold emailer kind of a person that you actually, that you can't be totally bonkers. But you did what you needed to do. Yes. And you got fucking three auditions.

5 (56m 26s):
Yeah. Correct. Yes. Which was amazing. Which was like, great. So I got these auditions and the two first one, the two, it was like the Shakespeare, the park, and then the Oregon Shakespeare Festival were the two first ones. And I didn't get them. And, and I remember thinking, they were like, okay, auditions, but not, you know, like I didn't, the spark thing didn't happen. And so I got to like, the final one, I think this must have been in August of, of 2006 after I graduated in June. And, and I was like, and it was for, it was for this company, the acting company. And the production they were doing that season was an, an adaptation of Jane Heir with only eight actors playing all the parts.

5 (57m 7s):
So the characters were gonna double. And several of the roles were cast already, but they were looking for an actor. The, I think like one of the only roles for women left. They were looking for an actor to play Helen Burns at the beginning of the book. And then, and then the 10 year old French ward that Jane tutors, Mr. Rochester's Ward. And I thought, I'm five eight, I got this low voice. I thought, there's no way. There's no way. And I was like, at the end of my rope and I was like, what am I gonna do? This was the last of three auditions. What am I gonna do if I don't get this? I was, I was, I think like sad. I was like, you know, and, and I had to go do monologues and I did Lady Percy's monologue from Henry for Love that, oh, I love that.

5 (57m 57s):
What a character. So I did her and I think I did like a Windy Waine contemporary monologue, and I did those two back to back and the director. And I was so sort of at the end of my rope that I just, like, everything was like laid out on the table. Like it was just one of the best auditions I ever gave because I, I had nothing to lose by

2 (58m 18s):
I it tape to, oh my God, I love the, the sort of, yeah. Like this is it kind of like I don't give a fuck and I give a fuck at the same time. Yes. Okay, so you do it and you felt like, oh, I, this was a spark.

5 (58m 35s):
Yes. Well, the director, Davis McCallum, this wonderful director stood up out of his chair and he goes, you're great. He's like, you are great. He was like, where did you, and he was like, you are great. And I was

2 (58m 48s):
Like, where did you call?

5 (58m 49s):
I almost started crying. I was like, hold it together, Kelly. I was like, hold it together.

2 (58m 54s):
Just,

5 (58m 56s):
And I, and I mean,

1 (58m 58s):
That's amazing. Champion. Wait, so I'm, you know, it must have been so painful for you to be compared to Cherry Jones and have somebody stand up and tell you that you're amazing. I'm, I'm so sorry that you had to go through such a difficulty, but here's, here's what I have to say. My, this is a fun experience for me because to meet you in person and to see you in the gilded age is so, these things are worlds apart. It's such a little nap. And you and Mary Good are my favorite in the whole, in the whole show. That's why I reached out to you. Oh my God. So I, I, you know, villain is not the first thing that comes to mind when I see you.

1 (59m 41s):
If I was looking at your headshot, I wouldn't be like, oh, she'd make a great villain. I think of you as the, you do have the deep voice, which you have influenced,

5 (59m 48s):
You know? Right, right. This

1 (59m 49s):
Particular casting. But what is it like to play a villain?

5 (59m 53s):
Oh my God, it's so much fun. It's so much fun. She's, she's so fun because she is like a messy character in a world that's trying to be very pristine as like part of the show, you know? And so she gets to sort of like push all the boundaries of the storyline and she pushes all the boundaries of her world and it's so fun. I mean,

2 (1h 0m 20s):
What, okay, so, so tell us how that came about. Like, did you have a, well, first of all, it makes perfect sense that you are great with heightened text. You are like, it sounds like a Shakespeare nut in some ways, and you okay all the things, right? So you're, you're, you're, you're busting your butt as an actor and you're in plays and you're living your life and obviously you have an agent and they're like, Hey, here's an audition. Did you just, was it just a random audition for Gil age?

5 (1h 0m 49s):
No, what was, what was great is like, like at some point when I was like 26, I started to develop a relationship with the casting office. Chelsea and Company.

2 (1h 0m 59s):
I like Chelsea and Company, they're

5 (1h 1m 1s):
Marvelous. They're such great people there. And so I booked a job early, like the second time I ever went in for them, I booked the job, which was understudying the roles of Harper and the Angel and the off-Broadway revival of Angels in America at the Signature Theater back in like 2010, 11. And so I, I got that job. And ever since that moment, Chelsea like slowly but surely would like, they'd think apart was right for me. They'd call me in and even if I didn't get it, which most of the time I did not. They, I think they, they, they stayed champions of my work. They knew I would show up prepared, they knew I would show up, making choices, you know.

5 (1h 1m 44s):
And so they kept calling me in. So more consistent than any representation I had in the early part of my career. Now I have a manager that I've been working with for about five years. And she's wonderful. She has like, really changed, changed my life in a lot of ways with her, her support and her work. But, but more than any, you know, agent up to that point, Chelsea were the people who were championing me to different directors and different, and they would kind of put me out for bigger and bigger projects as time went on. And so in the fall of 2019, I was working with my newer manager and, and you know, things were going along and going well and, and Chelsea called me in for the show, the Giled age.

5 (1h 2m 28s):
And, and we had one audition that was like, sort of like a pre-screen just, just with the, with the camera and the casting director. And, and the character at the time was not American. She was not a New Yorker. She was, she was, I don't think I'm supposed to talk about it too much. They've like sort of been like, no, don't. But, but she had a dialect and, and so I had like two days to prepare this dialect, but it was one that I had actually had to do in different plays before. So it was in there, you know what

2 (1h 3m 1s):
I mean? Ya me?

5 (1h 3m 4s):
Yes. And, and they didn't, it appeared to me that they didn't call in a lot of women. I knew some of the women who went in for this role because it was like a certain kind of actor that they knew would be able to sort of pull the dialect up in like, you know, 48 hours and whatever. So it was a smaller group, but I ju I found the character so delicious and so much fun that I was just like, oh, I love that. I love her. I was like, she is great. I was like, she's kind of like sultry and, and pretentious and like, there's something so wonderful about her. And, and I had watched with my parents for years down to Abby and so I had the sort of rhythms of his writing, you know, I had some experience of listening to that.

5 (1h 3m 45s):
And, and so I went in, did, did a good enough job at the first audition at the pre-screen to get called back the next day just with the executive producer and director Michael ler, which was amazing and weirdly in like a mirroring experience. And this is like the only two times this has ever happened to me specifically, I did the audition and Michael was like, great and, and do it again, but like, what about this? And then the two of, and I was like, oh yeah, like that. And he was like, yeah. And then we would, and it felt like a rehearsal. It felt like we were kind of rehearsing it and I was and it was fun that Yeah. And you

2 (1h 4m 21s):
Were, were collaborating. Yes,

5 (1h 4m 22s):
Exactly.

2 (1h 4m 24s):
So it's interesting. It's like I always thought everything people's always said about everything was bullshit. It's not true. So like, the thing that people say about it's part luck, it's part this, it's part this. I always thought that is the dumbest thing. It's actually true. It's the luck of, it's not luck in that, that the casting liked you and championed you. It's not luck that you worked your ass off. It is luck that he happened to be the director on this piece and the writer and that the and that you showed up. Yeah. And then you kicked ass. Exactly. And then you collaborated right. About collaboration. So you felt like you had ownership, which also, by the way, then takes us, I believe as actors out of our head Yes.

2 (1h 5m 7s):
And then get us into the room as a human being be like, oh wait, I'm here, I'm present. And then you, it's like the synergy between you. So okay, with the, at that second audition you were like, like he was like, that's great and you had fun. Yeah. Then what, you go away and are like, what the fuck? Or did they just cast you or how did it

5 (1h 5m 23s):
Work? Yeah, I mean I, he, he was great and he did that thing again at the end where he was like, where, where did you come from? Where

6 (1h 5m 29s):
Have you been? And I was like, I've been working in the American theater for like, for like 14 years.

2 (1h 5m 33s):
You're like, I've,

6 (1h 5m 36s):
I've been around. But but he was,

5 (1h 5m 39s):
He was lovely. And then I left and, and then like a few weeks went by and I, and my manager called me and she was like, you're strongly in consideration. I was like, okay, okay. You know, and then like another week went by and then I was actually getting, getting coffee with a college friend, with a Fordham theater program friend who I hadn't seen in a long time. My dear friend Tim Kubert, who's an amazing musician, he's like a Grammy award-winning children's musician. He's amazing. And we were getting coffee in my neighborhood and I was like, Tim, I'm, my phone rang. And I was like, Tim, I'm so sorry I have to take this call cause I'm in the running for this thing and I don't know. And I got on the phone and he pulled out his cell phone and, and just started recording

6 (1h 6m 23s):
Me. And I got on the, it was the cutest thing

5 (1h 6m 26s):
And I got on the phone and it was both my manager and agent and they were like, you got the job? Oh

1 (1h 6m 31s):
My God, you're gonna be on the day. I got the,

6 (1h 6m 34s):
And Tim was

5 (1h 6m 35s):
Like, we're switching to wine. And

6 (1h 6m 37s):
The, and was and he's like, went the counter and he was like, we need two glasses of wine. And it

1 (1h 6m 40s):
Was like, oh, that's fantastic.

5 (1h 6m 42s):
And it was amazing that it was that, you know, because because in the first season she was a recurring character. So you did, I didn't have to do the whole thing of like testing as a series regular and you know, media just because of the nature of the show and how many roles they were trying to cast and who needed to approve what that's how quick the process was. Yeah. It was like, it was like just Michael and Michael showed the tape to everyone and they made a decision amongst themselves and a few weeks later that was that. So what's, what's

1 (1h 7m 11s):
Julia's relation? Is he just the creator or does is, has he had further involvement?

5 (1h 7m 19s):
He, well he's, he's present when he can be. It's, it's so tricky cuz we were supposed to start, our production start date was March 16th, 2020.

1 (1h 7m 27s):
Oh of course it was.

2 (1h 7m 28s):
Of course.

5 (1h 7m 29s):
Yeah. And which was so interesting to hear Trell talk about this when Trell came on and like, such a similar thing happened, similar vibe with him, with Severance and, and yeah, the same thing happened to us where our start date was March 16th, 2020 and they were amazing and they kept us posted and they would do these Zoom meetings trying to encourage us with like what they've been doing and when they're gonna be able to get it up. And like they, they, you know, they really kept us assured and informed, which was incredible when I knew a lot of people whose jobs just like evaporated in this.

2 (1h 8m 0s):
Well the other thing to know is that like, it's the ultimate actor weirdness of you fucking booked a huge thing and then same with Tramel. And then you're like, wait, what? I'm not, and you have no control. Nobody does. And this is is not even a thing where you can like blame an exec at h right? No

5 (1h 8m 19s):
M this

2 (1h 8m 20s):
Is, this is whoever you believe in God, what a Buddha, whatever saying, oh no. And then were you, okay, so you had Zooms, but you were like, is this still gonna happen or did you think, oh yeah, of course this is still gonna happen. Or like, how did you live your

5 (1h 8m 32s):
Life? I did, I did think it was still gonna happen. I did think it was still gonna happen because they did an amazing thing several months in where they advanced us half of our salaries and they said it was, and they were like, please be assured we are committed to this. The network's committed to this. Like this group is committed to this, this is happening and if this helps you during the, they were amazing. They were amazing. And like the stress, the sort of the stress that that relieved the, the like space that, that opened up in my brain in terms of like, at least like, I mean it was, it was, it was such an incredible blessing.

1 (1h 9m 19s):
So I recently rewatched all of down Nabb and I re-watched season one of Guilt in Nature. When does season two come out by the way?

5 (1h 9m 28s):
I believe April. I believe April of 23. So it's still a ways off, but, but we just wrapped this week, this past week.

1 (1h 9m 35s):
That's amazing. That means I'm gonna have a great spring because success is like, season comes out then too. So I'm gonna be like, shit. So I'm really curious about like, you know, the, the story we hear a lot in this context I'm about to describe is how the American version of the office had all this, you know, worry and, and many people around town were saying like, oh they should never do it. They're gonna ruin it. You know, and it turned out to be like one of the best shows of all time. Did. Was there any kind of that expectation or fear or feeling like you needed to live up to down Nabby?

5 (1h 10m 14s):
I, I, I think so. I mean, I don't know if it was necessarily in comparison to doubt Nebby, but it was, it, I think this show, the content of the show was a little bit of a departure for hbo. I think they were trying to reach an audience that they had not particularly catered to like the PBS audience that that crowd. And I think the goal, I, I know part of the goal was to get new people signing on to HBO to be interested in the content of hbo. And so there was a lot of pressure to, to succeed at that. And I think we knew there would be natural comparisons to downtown of course. You know, so going into like having now completed the second season, I think coming back to the second season, you could definitely tell there was like a weight off people's shoulders.

5 (1h 11m 2s):
There was like a, ooh, okay, let's go. And there was like a little bit of like freer, more courageous, you know, quicker, quicker work happening in that way. Because I think in the first season too, we're all figuring out together who these characters are and what the fabric is and what the landscape is. Cuz it's this huge landscape. It's these multiple worlds that you're, you know, creating in the same place. And, and I think in now having completed season two, I can see that more clearly that there was definitely pressure, there was pressure in season one to make the show successful and to, and because we know that's such a loyal audience, the Downton audience and stuff that like to, to to not have it be necessarily the same.

5 (1h 11m 47s):
Cuz there's a lot of differences in, in the show and like the style of the show and just, just it being set in America, the context is like so, so totally different. But, but to create something exciting and sumptuous and I don't wanna say informative because it's a fiction, but you know, but that's rooted in history and rooted in historic context with accuracy, but also that has fictional elements that has things that maybe people wouldn't have expected happened or were possible or you know, whatever. So, so I think there was a lot of pressure to like honor the genre and honor the scope of it cuz it was hu it was just so big.

5 (1h 12m 32s):
It was so big. Like my first day on the set ended up being in October of 2020, I was finally my first day on set and the scene we were doing was actually my first appearance in the show where you see me in the background of Bertha walking into her house for the first time and there's all these movers and all these people, you know, working on the house and all this stuff. So it was this big scene with a bunch of background actors and, and a track. The camera was on a track like moving all around. And this was the first time I was in a room with like anyone other than my immediate family since March of 2020. And I got there and there's like 80 background actors and there's like a hundred crew members and I was like in a mansion in a warehouse and I was like, oh, I was so over, I was so overwhelmed and, and I, at a certain point I was like, I don't know where the camera is, I don't even know where the camera is.

5 (1h 13m 20s):
And I was like, Kelly, just think of it as like a site-specific theater piece and just get in her body and you know what her body is and you, you auditioned with her like you found her when you auditioned. Just find her, you go. And that was like how I calm myself down enough to actually like get through that first take. But it was so overwhelming, especially after not having seen or interacted with anybody.

1 (1h 13m 45s):
Yeah. That's insane. That's insane because the whole, the whole feeling, pervasive feeling during Covid is everything was just so heightened. The risk is heightened and the boredom was heightened that danger, danger,

5 (1h 13m 56s):
Danger

1 (1h 13m 58s):
To come out of that world to an extremely heightened but fictional world. I think one of the things that makes this like a really timely series is we, we are living in a gilded age, you know, right now. And I'm really curious to see the trajectory of the show. I loved in Down Abbey, how they kept that thread of the world is changing and we're gonna have to change with it and we can't just be stuck in these sort of class positions or wealth positions. And it's kind of sad that we're having to like relearn this lesson all over again now. But yeah. So a moment of fangirling for, for Carrie Co who is like unstoppable.

1 (1h 14m 47s):
Do you guys talk shop? Do you guys talk about, you know, acting stuff?

5 (1h 14m 53s):
Yeah, yeah. A bit like absolutely. Like I think even on that first day at one point I looked at her and I was like, does it ever get easier? I was like, do you ever get less nervous? And she was like, no. And then she like went and did her thing and I was like, okay, okay. And, and we do. And and it's been amazing to work in such close proximity with her as our, you know, our characters get to work in such close proximity and, and to watch her this this like woman in like the prime of her life and like the sort of full force of her power and her agency who's also a mom and you know, during the first season she was pregnant with her second child.

5 (1h 15m 36s):
And to watch that and to watch her negotiate that the cameramen negotiate that figure like, and just see how it's all possible. And also even this season we were talking and I was like, oh, I had this like crazy week and normally like the prep work I do before I know I'm gonna be filming is like pretty, pretty ritualized. It's pretty specific. I'm such a like nerd and such a like homework person that I have rituals around it. And she was like, oh my god. She was like, I was just talking about this with Kira Knightly on the set of the Boston Strangler. She was like, once you're a mom all that goes out the window cuz you have like no time left. You know what I mean? And so just to like, just to have those casual conversations about like life and how your life keeps evolving and how your artistry keeps evolving and, and like the, the, the goal is almost to just keep deepening your trust that like you already have everything you need to do this.

5 (1h 16m 26s):
You know what I mean? I think is like, it's, it's such an awesome thing to observe in her and to and to watch and, and then also just to play with her just to learn from her as we're like playing together. Cuz she is so, so much fun and so awesome to get to play opposite. I

2 (1h 16m 42s):
Mean I love the idea of like what, what what I love about this. And it's the same seemingly like on severance and stuff where it's like really masters of the craft, you included. Like people who have like, and I'm really talking like theater masters when I say that people of the stage that are now on television, I think of the same with like Michael Shannon and people like that Yeah. Who I've worked with where it's like, you're like, oh, oh this is what this could be. We could take all the theater training and all the, the amazing like preparation, like a lot of, a lot of television actors may not even know like Right.

2 (1h 17m 25s):
They just don't know the theater tricks and tr and and deepening of process and like to see that on a set, I would be like, oh, it's like a masterclass in like life and how to do things. And also I love the fact that you said Kelly, this is like aise sort of site specific theater piece and you fell, you fell back on all the theater training Yeah. To get you through this moment like huge monumental, momentous television experience Yeah. On a set. I love that because I feel like a lot of times when I go on set, like all that shit goes out the window and I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing. But a friend will often say to me before I would do anything, like, remember you are a fucking trained theater actor.

2 (1h 18m 11s):
Yes. Fucking get out there. I'm like right, right. We know what we're doing. We had to do all this shit. Wait, wait, I'm not gonna be scared by the camera. Just the different things. It's just like set pieces. Oh yeah. It's stage management. Oh yeah. So I love that you felt like you relied on that on, on your first day on, on the set to like keep you grounded and then to be around other theater actors ala Carrie Coon who's like the same shit. She's probably telling herself the same shit too. So yeah, I just, I love that. And I, I'm, I'm mindful of time so I wanna ask you about the, the scene where you are, where you are naked. Oh yeah. Not, not in terms of anything other than how was that for you as a human, as a lady to do that scene and what went into it.

2 (1h 18m 59s):
So anything you wanna say about that? Because I was reading about it online, there's a lot of backlash there. Oh boy.

5 (1h 19m 4s):
Oh yeah, I know. Which I found really interesting cause I was like, it was so tasteful. I dunno why there's

6 (1h 19m 10s):
So much back.

2 (1h 19m 11s):
Yeah. It's usually probably dudes like white dudes in their fifties

5 (1h 19m 13s):
Trying to control women's bodies probably. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. But

2 (1h 19m 17s):
Tell us about that. If you, if you could, if you want to.

5 (1h 19m 19s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I knew from the beginning that there was going to be that kind of intimate scene cuz I, I knew early on that that was gonna happen. And I think the thing that kept happening, which was a little frustrating, but it wasn't anybody's fault, it's like schedule-wise we film based on location so everything gets filmed out of order, not chronologically. And so this the day that I had to do that ended up being my rap day. It was like nine months

6 (1h 19m 45s):
Into filming and it was, so I waited all season long to do that. And of course

5 (1h 19m 51s):
Like, you know, you look at Morgan and you're like, oh, I'm gonna be naked with that guy. Okay, okay, here we go. Like everything. So you like try to befriend a person, but there's always that thing of like, well this, okay, we're gonna okay. But, but during the pandemic, like I did a lot, like, I was like, I knew the thing that would, would make me comfortable enough to play the scene and not be self-conscious, which is like the whole goal, like when you're acting anytime. But I think especially on camera when it's like you're so, it's so sensitive and you're so vulnerable and it's like I, I knew I would be comfortable if I felt good myself if I felt like I was like exercising and like had like a pretty healthy, you know, diet routine or regimen, you know?

5 (1h 20m 38s):
And, and so I did a lot of that all year long since I knew this was gonna be coming up in order to be out of my head on the day. And I think the funny thing that happened is I got less self-conscious about like, who would see this? Like millions of people seeing it as I did like, oh, I'm gonna be naked in front of all my colleagues who I've worked with for nine months and they're so great and that's gonna be a little weird that I'm naked in front of my dear friends now and these people who like, but at the same time the show was so supportive. We had an intimacy coach, the directors called me early on to talk about it. We kept talking about it and we went through like what we were comfortable with and what we weren't.

5 (1h 21m 22s):
And then it got negotiated by the contract is very specific, how many seconds the camera could be on certain body parts and how, you know, it's, it's very specific. And my manager was involved in those talks and the lawyers at HBO and all that stuff. So it's, they they really, you know, you well they

2 (1h 21m 39s):
Did it. They did it right. Yeah,

5 (1h 21m 40s):
They did it right.

2 (1h 21m 41s):
It kid is supposed to go, I feel like this production, from what I'm hearing from you and what I've heard about, like they're doing shit. Right. And like, I feel like that's very needed because shit goes wrong so often. Totally everywhere, but especially in Hollywood. So like, okay, so you had, and what what's interesting to me is like, do you think you did the, is to ask you like the the outward preparation, the food and the exercise and the stuff so that you could feel like what I'm getting is right, that you could feel good in your head about it. And so you weren't fixated on which parts were showing and which jiggly bits might be ji and all the things.

5 (1h 22m 18s):
Exactly. Exactly. Like I didn't want to, I didn't wanna be thinking about that. I wanted to be playing the scene and I felt like I know myself well enough to know that the way I can do that is by just taking care of myself in advance to the best way that I could to like make that happen. And still, and still still of course you like it was a totally new experience. I had to do some nudity on stage, but that's very different, you know, it's very fleeting. It's a limited audience. It's like, you know what I mean? And, and still like when I went and watched the show, I was like, that was,

2 (1h 22m 51s):
You watched it.

5 (1h 22m 52s):
Okay. So I did watch it. I did watch it cuz I wanted to see what, you know, happened. What

2 (1h 22m 55s):
Did you think? How did it go? How was it watching yourself naked in on television?

5 (1h 22m 60s):
I mean, awkward. It's like, but but, but I think the thing that I found was like I, I personally didn't think it was my best scene work on the show. Oh. And I think that, and, and I watched it and I was like, oh. And I was like, but but, but I was like, you have to forgive yourself. Like, yes, you, you were doing this thing where like you have, the show has so much exposure that there's a risk of failing at a very big level. Like there's a risk that you're gonna go out and not do as well as you wanna do in every scene, every time. And I personally felt like a little bit disappointed with my own work and I had to be like, Kelly, it was a new challenge.

5 (1h 23m 41s):
It was like a new moment. Like it was the first time you ever had to do anything like that and you were very supportive. But now, you know, and now you've learned and now you think about like, what would you do differently next time? You know, or what would, oh,

2 (1h 23m 54s):
So Kelly Kelly, did you pass out on set at all during that? No.

5 (1h 23m 58s):
No.

2 (1h 23m 59s):
Did you throw up pee or make poop on?

5 (1h 24m 2s):
No, thank God.

2 (1h 24m 4s):
You're fine. Fine. You're totally fine. It actually like, oh my

5 (1h 24m 8s):
God. Totally. And it ended up being like a really fun day. It ended up, because it was such a supportive group and such a supportive crew and it was just Morgan and I all day long. It was like really fun in the end. And, and like we, and he like, let me just say if you have to do something like that, he is such a lovely human being to do that with. I mean he is so just like naturally has so much integrity and respect for other people and respect for himself. And so, you know, I mean I, again, it's like a, it's like really falling into the luck bucket in, in so many ways. Oh,

2 (1h 24m 40s):
So wait, did he, did he play the director on Mind Hunter? He's the director on Mind Hunter, right? Oh,

5 (1h 24m 45s):
I don't know. I haven't seen No, no, no, no. That's, that's Michael servers, but, but Morgan plays Kerry Coon's husband.

2 (1h 24m 55s):
Oh, that's right. That's right. That's, yeah, yeah. That's who you're seducing. Yes.

5 (1h 24m 59s):
Trying to,

2 (1h 25m 1s):
Trying

5 (1h 25m 2s):
To and failing. But, but yeah, so it, it ended up being a great experience and also one that like the whole experience was like a learning curve for me. Like learning a new medium and learning how to work in it and, and like figuring out what works for enough for me to focus and when I'm less focused that, you know, the whole thing has been like this experience of figuring out, I

2 (1h 25m 24s):
I feel like the challenge that you're just reminding me that like, look, it's everyone's first hand set at some point. Yeah. And also if people who are pros and like have been doing it a million times aren't kind about it and that's their problem. But like everyone has to start somewhere. Like nobody starts out. I have to remind myself of that. Like, nobody starts out out a Carrie Coons or Kelly or anyone. You know, people you build, you, build you, build you.

7 (1h 26m 4s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survive. Theater School is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina PCI are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina pci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Inc, please visit our website@undeniableriders.com. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.