1 00:00:00,790 --> 00:00:03,200 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 2 00:00:03,310 --> 00:00:04,649 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 3 00:00:05,109 --> 00:00:08,980 In this episode, you will hear part one of my conversation with Kate Sonka, 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,600 Executive Director of Teach Access. 5 00:00:12,290 --> 00:00:16,040 More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's 6 00:00:16,059 --> 00:00:18,069 Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. 7 00:00:18,250 --> 00:00:21,530 Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on 8 00:00:21,530 --> 00:00:23,359 YouTube or your favorite podcast app. 9 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,960 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 10 00:00:27,050 --> 00:00:28,370 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 11 00:00:28,910 --> 00:00:33,750 My guest today is Kate Sonka, Executive Director of Teach Access. 12 00:00:34,269 --> 00:00:35,030 Hi, Kate. 13 00:00:35,620 --> 00:00:36,220 Hi, Jeff. 14 00:00:36,290 --> 00:00:37,440 It's so good to be here. 15 00:00:38,310 --> 00:00:40,050 It's really great to see you again. 16 00:00:40,069 --> 00:00:46,540 And, uh, Kate, um, now, Teach Access is a non profit organization. 17 00:00:46,710 --> 00:00:51,929 Um, I want, why don't you tell us a little bit about, um, what 18 00:00:51,930 --> 00:00:56,030 Teach Access is so that we are all grounded to, to this, this episode. 19 00:00:56,030 --> 00:00:57,670 I think it's going to be really exciting. 20 00:00:57,670 --> 00:01:01,170 A lot of our listeners will be very excited about what you have to say. 21 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:01,910 Yes. 22 00:01:02,099 --> 00:01:03,080 Thank you so much, Jeff. 23 00:01:03,090 --> 00:01:04,379 And again, thanks for having me. 24 00:01:04,430 --> 00:01:05,480 So glad to be here. 25 00:01:05,850 --> 00:01:10,370 Um, so Teach Access, uh, as you said, we're a non profit organization. 26 00:01:10,690 --> 00:01:12,189 Um, we're based here in the U S. 27 00:01:12,710 --> 00:01:15,949 We're fully remote, so we don't actually have sort of a home base. 28 00:01:16,419 --> 00:01:19,410 I'm based in Michigan, we have other team members in Michigan, 29 00:01:19,419 --> 00:01:24,369 Tennessee, Puerto Rico, but we, we collaborate with people across the U. 30 00:01:24,369 --> 00:01:24,539 S. 31 00:01:25,119 --> 00:01:31,369 Um, and our mission is to support, Educators and faculty, uh, to 32 00:01:31,369 --> 00:01:36,460 teach about accessibility, digital accessibility and dis and disability. 33 00:01:36,939 --> 00:01:41,870 Um, and so our, we also have programs that, that support students as well, and 34 00:01:41,870 --> 00:01:43,230 I'm sure we'll get into some of those. 35 00:01:43,750 --> 00:01:48,250 Um, but our mission is to really think about what is it that educators and 36 00:01:48,250 --> 00:01:54,675 faculty need in terms of resources, Curricular materials, trainings to 37 00:01:54,675 --> 00:01:58,985 feel informed and comfortable to be able to teach these topics to their 38 00:01:58,985 --> 00:02:04,305 students, um, with the ultimate goal of closing what we call the, um, 39 00:02:05,695 --> 00:02:07,865 Accessibility Technology Skills Gap. 40 00:02:07,905 --> 00:02:13,315 Sorry, I stumbled there a bit, um, but this idea that industry and definitely 41 00:02:13,315 --> 00:02:19,075 the tech industry, but, but all industry is looking for recent graduates, um, 42 00:02:19,445 --> 00:02:23,965 From from higher ed, uh, who knows something about accessibility and who 43 00:02:23,965 --> 00:02:31,295 knows something about disability, um, so that as they enter into jobs, internships 44 00:02:31,375 --> 00:02:35,804 in these organizations, they know to include accessibility from the beginning, 45 00:02:36,314 --> 00:02:41,400 um, so that products and services are born accessible is what we call it. 46 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,950 So this idea that, you know, you and I are starting to work together and we 47 00:02:44,950 --> 00:02:49,009 want to develop a new app, um, and I know that accessibility is something we 48 00:02:49,009 --> 00:02:51,659 should consider, um, and, and you do too. 49 00:02:51,740 --> 00:02:55,359 So we know, ah, we have to include that from the beginning, um, because 50 00:02:56,055 --> 00:03:00,695 We know that things will be put out into the marketplace that are not 51 00:03:00,695 --> 00:03:03,985 accessible, and of course what that means is that people with disabilities 52 00:03:03,985 --> 00:03:08,115 cannot interact with those products or have difficulty interacting with that. 53 00:03:08,845 --> 00:03:11,715 And so the idea is really we're laying this groundwork, we're trying 54 00:03:11,715 --> 00:03:16,704 to close the skills gap so that as companies are hiring students and recent 55 00:03:16,704 --> 00:03:21,350 graduates They know that accessibility will be included from the beginning. 56 00:03:21,859 --> 00:03:24,780 Um, and so we do a lot of work that I know we'll dive into. 57 00:03:24,870 --> 00:03:26,410 Um, but that's, that's our mission. 58 00:03:27,870 --> 00:03:30,680 That is what a wonderful, wonderful introduction. 59 00:03:30,690 --> 00:03:35,529 And what a, um, what a, what a, what a great mission. 60 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,650 And I should, I think it would be important for our listener to know 61 00:03:38,660 --> 00:03:44,630 that, um, for those who don't already, Digication, um, and Teach Access, 62 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,790 um, have a partnership where, uh, we have, you know, we, I think. 63 00:03:50,865 --> 00:03:56,005 I think you and I met through, I actually don't remember how we met, but I know 64 00:03:56,005 --> 00:04:01,135 that we have a, um, a friend in common and who is Mark Thompson, who happens 65 00:04:01,175 --> 00:04:03,445 to be another Digication Scholar. 66 00:04:03,865 --> 00:04:07,944 And he is, uh, Season Three, Episode 28. 67 00:04:07,965 --> 00:04:09,344 Those are, that's what's in my notes. 68 00:04:09,774 --> 00:04:14,675 And he's, um, he's from University of Illinois in Urbana Champaign, who is 69 00:04:14,675 --> 00:04:17,655 an accessibility universal design guru. 70 00:04:18,165 --> 00:04:24,145 Um, And, um, I believe that he was in one of your, uh, founding board members 71 00:04:24,145 --> 00:04:25,865 or something, right, at Teach Access? 72 00:04:25,995 --> 00:04:26,845 Yes, yes. 73 00:04:26,875 --> 00:04:29,985 He's been, he's been with Teach Access since we kicked off in 2016 74 00:04:30,755 --> 00:04:37,364 and has been just a constant support and, and volunteer and just always 75 00:04:37,364 --> 00:04:39,384 willing to share his knowledge. 76 00:04:39,385 --> 00:04:43,575 And, and, and that's part of our work too, is, is building 77 00:04:43,575 --> 00:04:46,085 this network of other educators. 78 00:04:46,250 --> 00:04:51,330 Incredible educators like Mark, um, as well as people in industry, disability 79 00:04:51,340 --> 00:04:57,250 advocacy, non profit groups, um, really building a network to help do this work, 80 00:04:57,319 --> 00:05:01,370 um, because we can't do it alone, uh, and, and Mark has been incredible in 81 00:05:01,370 --> 00:05:04,520 coming and talking with other faculty about, here's what I've done in my 82 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,310 courses and how I've taught this, or, um, providing ideas on how they 83 00:05:08,310 --> 00:05:09,740 could be teaching it in their courses. 84 00:05:09,780 --> 00:05:14,055 So Mark is a big, big, big friend of Teach Access. 85 00:05:14,789 --> 00:05:19,360 And so we, and I, and, and, and he's a big friend of Digication as 86 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:20,920 well, which I think is so lovely. 87 00:05:21,260 --> 00:05:27,140 And, and I think that the, um, uh, I think based on all of that circles, we have 88 00:05:27,140 --> 00:05:31,310 overlapping because we obviously both have interest in it, in, in accessibility. 89 00:05:31,659 --> 00:05:35,229 Um, we got to know each other and know, uh, having learned 90 00:05:35,229 --> 00:05:38,739 about your mission, in which case does not really do a lot of, um. 91 00:05:40,725 --> 00:05:44,705 You know, this level of partnership with organizations, but when we learned 92 00:05:44,705 --> 00:05:48,515 about your mission, we thought, wow, what an amazing set of resources. 93 00:05:48,615 --> 00:05:53,184 And, and since we work with a lot of faculty members and students across many 94 00:05:53,185 --> 00:06:00,425 universities and K 12 schools, we thought, wouldn't it be nice if we can, um, uh, 95 00:06:00,705 --> 00:06:05,854 you know, promote some of the resources that Teach Access has to offer, which 96 00:06:06,125 --> 00:06:13,100 is genuinely just good content for both faculty members and students, good for 97 00:06:13,130 --> 00:06:18,930 teachers and students who are maybe, you know, know, have heard a little bit about 98 00:06:18,970 --> 00:06:24,849 accessibility, but don't know, don't know how to do it, you know, aside from maybe 99 00:06:24,849 --> 00:06:32,800 the limited experiences with, oh, right, a video should have um captions and audio 100 00:06:32,815 --> 00:06:36,635 should have transcripts maybe, and that might be the extent of what they know. 101 00:06:37,174 --> 00:06:42,344 Um, and so what, you know, and, and, and it may not even be a huge part 102 00:06:42,344 --> 00:06:44,474 of, you know, what they do day to day. 103 00:06:44,804 --> 00:06:48,155 And, and, and for us to have an opportunity to... 104 00:06:48,694 --> 00:06:53,254 to, to provide some really quick, easy to digest resources for them. 105 00:06:53,905 --> 00:06:56,835 Um, you know, is, is a wonderful thing. 106 00:06:56,864 --> 00:07:01,734 Um, we don't necessarily need them to get a PhD in it, but, you 107 00:07:01,734 --> 00:07:05,955 know, knowing that is, is, is, is just the, the basic foundation. 108 00:07:05,965 --> 00:07:10,315 Like you said, that skill gap promotes the idea that whether they're building 109 00:07:10,315 --> 00:07:15,645 an app or providing services, you know, to, to, to their community, how, how can 110 00:07:15,715 --> 00:07:18,674 accessibility be born with that idea? 111 00:07:19,054 --> 00:07:21,455 You know, that comes with everything that they do. 112 00:07:21,474 --> 00:07:24,554 So maybe I would just clarify one thing, which is. 113 00:07:24,554 --> 00:07:27,875 You know, we, you use the example of what if we build an app together, right? 114 00:07:27,875 --> 00:07:29,954 It sounds very Silicon Valley, right? 115 00:07:30,314 --> 00:07:34,515 But there's also the same as if you are a journalist and you're going to go and 116 00:07:34,584 --> 00:07:41,145 work for a newspaper, a more traditional media company when, but you are still, 117 00:07:41,924 --> 00:07:43,314 it doesn't matter what your job is. 118 00:07:43,315 --> 00:07:44,095 You could be a writer. 119 00:07:44,115 --> 00:07:44,815 You could be an editor. 120 00:07:44,815 --> 00:07:48,105 You could be a photographer, but you are going to. 121 00:07:48,495 --> 00:07:54,265 Still advocate for accessibility at whatever job that whatever way 122 00:07:54,265 --> 00:07:56,405 that you contributed to society. 123 00:07:56,785 --> 00:08:00,034 And I think that is just what an amazing mission, Kate. 124 00:08:00,085 --> 00:08:04,435 Thank you so much for bringing this, this, um, this organization to life 125 00:08:04,505 --> 00:08:07,124 and, and, and, and, and, and heading it. 126 00:08:07,404 --> 00:08:07,814 Yeah. 127 00:08:07,824 --> 00:08:08,394 Thank you. 128 00:08:08,394 --> 00:08:09,904 I really appreciate that. 129 00:08:09,904 --> 00:08:11,904 I think you really, um, 130 00:08:14,084 --> 00:08:19,625 noticed something that is really part of our ethos is this Everybody should know 131 00:08:19,655 --> 00:08:25,135 a little bit, um, so one of the phrases that we like to use a lot is we are about 132 00:08:25,145 --> 00:08:28,985 breadth more than depth, um, and you kind of hinted at this in a few different 133 00:08:28,985 --> 00:08:33,725 ways, um, but this idea that we're really trying to get a lot of people to know at 134 00:08:33,725 --> 00:08:37,795 least a little bit, um, of course that doesn't mean that it will take care of all 135 00:08:37,795 --> 00:08:40,749 the accessibility needs, um, that exist. 136 00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:43,180 For all types of disabilities, of course not. 137 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,510 Um, but imagine what the world would be like if everybody at 138 00:08:47,510 --> 00:08:49,320 least knew, Hey, you know what? 139 00:08:49,330 --> 00:08:51,540 Accessibility has to be a part of the work that I do. 140 00:08:52,089 --> 00:08:55,970 Just like you said, no matter where I'm at, you know, if you're a journalist, 141 00:08:55,970 --> 00:08:59,669 what, what language choices are you making in terms of the way that maybe you're 142 00:08:59,669 --> 00:09:01,120 talking about people with disabilities? 143 00:09:01,270 --> 00:09:05,530 Or, um, you know, ableist phrases or using plain language. 144 00:09:05,930 --> 00:09:10,069 Um, and then of course the type of media you're creating, what are you 145 00:09:10,069 --> 00:09:13,149 doing to make sure that that media and the, and the stories that you're 146 00:09:13,149 --> 00:09:16,400 putting out and information is accessible to people with disabilities. 147 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,029 And that's really what we're looking at is. 148 00:09:19,925 --> 00:09:23,374 If everybody knew a little bit, um, think of how we would 149 00:09:23,374 --> 00:09:24,794 continue to advance, right? 150 00:09:25,464 --> 00:09:27,985 We will always need people who are accessibility experts. 151 00:09:28,395 --> 00:09:31,474 They're crucially important to us being able to do this work. 152 00:09:31,884 --> 00:09:35,504 Imagine if their time was able to be spent more on some of those 153 00:09:35,524 --> 00:09:37,284 challenging accessibility questions. 154 00:09:37,674 --> 00:09:40,674 How to make different things function in different ways. 155 00:09:41,114 --> 00:09:45,655 Um, and maybe less time, less of their time, you know, training incoming 156 00:09:45,655 --> 00:09:50,405 new hires on This is what alternative text is, or here's what the Web 157 00:09:50,415 --> 00:09:52,295 Content Accessibility Guidelines are. 158 00:09:52,695 --> 00:09:55,605 Um, if everyone kind of understood, yeah, those things are out there, 159 00:09:55,905 --> 00:09:57,795 um, I know how to do some of this. 160 00:09:58,325 --> 00:10:02,874 I know where to go to find more information, or have to call in the, 161 00:10:02,975 --> 00:10:06,115 you know, the internal accessibility team, because this one is a little bit 162 00:10:06,125 --> 00:10:10,885 more than what I'm Aware of enough to be able to do, uh, if that makes sense. 163 00:10:10,915 --> 00:10:15,055 So, um, it's really part of what we're trying to do is broad 164 00:10:15,084 --> 00:10:17,464 understanding about accessibility. 165 00:10:17,964 --> 00:10:22,434 Um, of course, if you look at disability, um, statistics, there's 166 00:10:22,665 --> 00:10:25,334 so many different places you can go to find this information, but. 167 00:10:26,205 --> 00:10:30,425 For example, the World Health Organization estimates that about 20 168 00:10:30,425 --> 00:10:34,984 percent of the population, world's population, has a disability. 169 00:10:35,745 --> 00:10:37,624 It's likely higher, right? 170 00:10:37,655 --> 00:10:41,855 Because it's self reported data, and there's all sorts of reasons that people 171 00:10:41,865 --> 00:10:45,825 choose not to report or aren't aware that they have a disability, perhaps, 172 00:10:45,845 --> 00:10:49,185 or don't think of it as a disability, or whatever that might look like. 173 00:10:49,805 --> 00:10:55,480 So that means that one in four people, uh, Actually, that's, yeah, 174 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:56,660 a little higher than that, I guess. 175 00:10:56,680 --> 00:11:00,449 25%, one in four people has a disability, um, or knows 176 00:11:00,469 --> 00:11:02,020 somebody who has a disability. 177 00:11:02,069 --> 00:11:05,250 And so when you think of it that way, no matter what you're doing, 178 00:11:05,589 --> 00:11:10,699 somebody will interact with, with your work who identifies as disabled or 179 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:12,530 knows someone who has a disability. 180 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,379 So it's crucial that we all are aware of this. 181 00:11:15,029 --> 00:11:19,210 Um, another thing that, that, We talk about often with faculty and students 182 00:11:19,210 --> 00:11:23,610 is that, you know, the disability community is one that any of us could 183 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:31,280 enter and at any time in our life, um, permanently, temporarily, situationally. 184 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:36,369 And so when we think of other types of, um, identity groups that some 185 00:11:36,450 --> 00:11:39,420 of us are born into, we're, we're members of those groups, right? 186 00:11:39,420 --> 00:11:40,010 Our whole lives. 187 00:11:40,570 --> 00:11:46,120 Um, disability is one that you can be born into, but you can also join at any point. 188 00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:47,500 At any time. 189 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:51,470 And so it truly does affect all of us in some way. 190 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:56,269 And so the more we can bring awareness to that, that this is part of human, you 191 00:11:56,269 --> 00:11:57,730 know, this, this is, these are humans. 192 00:11:57,750 --> 00:11:58,300 We're humans. 193 00:11:58,809 --> 00:12:01,490 Um, it's, it's important to, to be able to do that. 194 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,439 So I think that's, that's, that's really, really great. 195 00:12:05,439 --> 00:12:10,780 I, I, I wanted to paint a little picture for, for us to ponder a little bit, which 196 00:12:10,780 --> 00:12:17,270 is, you know, like, even if you are not someone who feels like, You're not, um, 197 00:12:17,490 --> 00:12:19,720 you know, I'm not designing a product. 198 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,350 I'm not responsible for any of that. 199 00:12:22,070 --> 00:12:25,850 I think, like you said, to participate does not require you to do any of that. 200 00:12:26,219 --> 00:12:32,170 So for example, today we, we, um. 201 00:12:32,724 --> 00:12:37,805 Many of us actively participate in, you know, social media such 202 00:12:37,805 --> 00:12:40,145 as, um, TikTok and Instagram. 203 00:12:41,305 --> 00:12:45,004 Most of these, you know, services are not designed with 204 00:12:45,004 --> 00:12:47,115 accessibility in mind at all. 205 00:12:47,275 --> 00:12:52,865 In fact, many of them, um, You know, it's not even in the roadmap. 206 00:12:52,955 --> 00:12:56,305 There is no way to, to make it accessible. 207 00:12:56,315 --> 00:13:00,704 The, the product itself was not like you said, born with accessibility 208 00:13:00,745 --> 00:13:02,684 as part of its formulation. 209 00:13:03,585 --> 00:13:10,065 Um, in fact, I would probably say that for, for, for many of these 210 00:13:10,065 --> 00:13:16,645 services, they have given up on people who would not be able to access their 211 00:13:16,645 --> 00:13:18,125 service and they're okay with it. 212 00:13:19,655 --> 00:13:19,954 Yeah. 213 00:13:19,954 --> 00:13:20,529 I don't know. 214 00:13:20,770 --> 00:13:22,400 Yeah, that's an interesting question. 215 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,660 I, so I have to say, you know, part of the, the, um, work that we 216 00:13:26,660 --> 00:13:30,150 do and the collaborations we have are with a lot of tech companies. 217 00:13:30,709 --> 00:13:32,980 Um, that's really where we were born out of, actually. 218 00:13:32,980 --> 00:13:36,589 Conversations that, um, some people at Facebook, now Meta. 219 00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:42,230 We're having with some folks at Yahoo and, and they were identifying the skills 220 00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:44,300 gap and this was back in like 2015. 221 00:13:44,660 --> 00:13:48,090 I mean, it's existed longer than that, but in 2015, they were saying, you 222 00:13:48,090 --> 00:13:51,820 know, we can't, when we're hiring recent graduates, they don't know about this. 223 00:13:51,929 --> 00:13:55,625 And so, you know, I, there's, Always room for improvement. 224 00:13:55,975 --> 00:13:59,365 You know, we're never, we're never done with accessibility. 225 00:13:59,475 --> 00:14:03,465 We never are 100 percent done with it because there will always be, you know, 226 00:14:03,475 --> 00:14:08,444 a new update or, or you meet someone, um, or someone is using your product who has 227 00:14:08,445 --> 00:14:12,704 a specific, um, type of disability that you hadn't thought about or considered 228 00:14:12,704 --> 00:14:17,045 and, and, you know, need to go back and take a look at how, how to make it work. 229 00:14:17,425 --> 00:14:18,795 Um, so. 230 00:14:19,555 --> 00:14:24,505 While there's plenty of, of space for improvement, um, I do think there's, 231 00:14:24,555 --> 00:14:27,835 you know, a number of, of companies that we work with who have internal 232 00:14:27,835 --> 00:14:33,385 accessibility teams, um, who are working really hard to figure out how to, uh, 233 00:14:33,655 --> 00:14:37,315 create new products that are accessible, but also remediate what exists out there. 234 00:14:37,745 --> 00:14:43,825 Um, and I think, I think there's, There are all types of people at every 235 00:14:43,835 --> 00:14:49,345 stage, right, of the process in making their products and services accessible. 236 00:14:49,385 --> 00:14:52,544 So, um, but that's what our hope is, right? 237 00:14:52,545 --> 00:14:56,465 If we can continue to reach, or as we continue to reach all of the students 238 00:14:56,504 --> 00:15:01,714 that we can, they come into these organizations, whether it's Tech or any 239 00:15:02,044 --> 00:15:07,005 organization, any industry, and they can start to really move that needle, right? 240 00:15:07,025 --> 00:15:11,255 That every meeting, someone saying, we have to make this accessible. 241 00:15:11,554 --> 00:15:12,445 How do we do that? 242 00:15:12,885 --> 00:15:15,345 Um, or, or where do we go to make that happen? 243 00:15:15,364 --> 00:15:22,230 So, you know, it's a big, It's a big undertaking, uh, for all of 244 00:15:22,230 --> 00:15:23,890 us, but, but an important one. 245 00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:26,080 So, yeah, I, I agree. 246 00:15:26,090 --> 00:15:29,449 And I, and I think that, you know, to the picture that I was going 247 00:15:29,450 --> 00:15:34,510 to paint, which was, you know, it might come a time where products 248 00:15:34,669 --> 00:15:37,399 in general will find itself being. 249 00:15:37,685 --> 00:15:42,005 Oh, we have to address this because our consumers are knowledgeable 250 00:15:42,005 --> 00:15:44,875 enough that they expect it, right? 251 00:15:45,195 --> 00:15:51,275 So similar to if you, you wouldn't be able to, I mean, if I go into a brand 252 00:15:51,275 --> 00:15:57,125 new restaurant today and that this restaurant is not, you know, accessible by 253 00:15:57,125 --> 00:16:02,135 wheelchair, I would notice it and I'll be like, well, how, how would you serve that? 254 00:16:02,135 --> 00:16:04,495 And how did you even get to this point where you can have 255 00:16:04,495 --> 00:16:05,825 a restaurant that is new? 256 00:16:07,305 --> 00:16:07,585 Right. 257 00:16:07,625 --> 00:16:11,965 And, and, and it's something that you'd, you'd, you'd, you would, 258 00:16:12,075 --> 00:16:15,335 you would sort of go, you would, you would ask questions about it. 259 00:16:15,335 --> 00:16:19,775 And, and I think that that's, um, that's a really healthy thing. 260 00:16:19,785 --> 00:16:21,904 It's a healthy thing for our society. 261 00:16:21,915 --> 00:16:28,380 It's a, you're almost like giving it some, you mean it, uh, um, uh, What, 262 00:16:28,460 --> 00:16:31,940 what is it that I'm going to, I'm trying to say you're, you're giving 263 00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:38,210 it, um, sort of a defense mechanism, you know, a self corrective self, um, 264 00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:46,319 mechanism by letting all of us, letting the general society gain a higher level 265 00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:48,260 of awareness of digital accessibility. 266 00:16:48,270 --> 00:16:51,030 We just talked about wheelchairs, which many of us would, would 267 00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:53,180 know and notice, you know, right. 268 00:16:53,390 --> 00:16:53,550 Right. 269 00:16:54,210 --> 00:16:58,930 But when we are then starting to talk about, um, digital accessibility, 270 00:16:58,930 --> 00:17:00,440 we're not there yet, right? 271 00:17:00,460 --> 00:17:06,290 Like you, as you mentioned, all alternate texts for images, I'm sure that some of 272 00:17:06,290 --> 00:17:08,360 our listeners will go, well, what is that? 273 00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:09,480 Absolutely. 274 00:17:09,650 --> 00:17:16,075 Um, and, uh, but, you know, As they learn more about it, then it becomes 275 00:17:16,075 --> 00:17:20,415 something that they go, okay, I may not even be the one who's creating 276 00:17:20,415 --> 00:17:25,974 something that will use this alt text or have anything to do with it. 277 00:17:26,165 --> 00:17:29,394 But if I come across someone who talks about it and saying that 278 00:17:29,405 --> 00:17:33,875 they, they, they can't access an image because it was lacking this 279 00:17:33,935 --> 00:17:35,675 text, I would know what it is. 280 00:17:35,755 --> 00:17:40,695 And I would know that They should have done it, and they would demand it, right? 281 00:17:40,965 --> 00:17:43,475 And I think that that's, that's what it's about, right? 282 00:17:43,695 --> 00:17:47,564 Getting that, that, that literacy out to people. 283 00:17:48,065 --> 00:17:48,874 It really is. 284 00:17:48,875 --> 00:17:50,594 And I think, you know, it's interesting. 285 00:17:50,595 --> 00:17:54,785 You bring up the idea of how we notice if something maybe isn't wheelchair 286 00:17:54,785 --> 00:17:59,325 accessible, um, versus, you know, thinking about digital spaces and accessibility. 287 00:17:59,325 --> 00:18:04,519 And some of that is by nature of, um, So we, we know about the 288 00:18:04,519 --> 00:18:06,080 Americans with Disabilities Act. 289 00:18:06,469 --> 00:18:11,179 Um, and prior to that there were other pieces of legislation, um, the 290 00:18:11,179 --> 00:18:17,050 Rehabilitation Act, um, and others who were identifying in the ADA for 291 00:18:17,050 --> 00:18:18,670 short Americans with Disabilities Act. 292 00:18:18,670 --> 00:18:24,310 ADA was signed into law in 1990, so not that long ago really. 293 00:18:24,660 --> 00:18:28,050 Um, but what that did lay the groundwork for, and what that required 294 00:18:28,050 --> 00:18:32,149 was that we have to make public spaces and, and others accessible. 295 00:18:32,465 --> 00:18:34,195 You know, physical spaces. 296 00:18:34,645 --> 00:18:39,855 And so, you know, people I think have a more, um, a longer, have had 297 00:18:39,855 --> 00:18:42,795 a longer chance to understand, like, okay, I understand what that means. 298 00:18:43,095 --> 00:18:45,525 There needs to be wheelchair accessibility into a building, 299 00:18:45,534 --> 00:18:49,455 or there needs to be braille, um, available and in signage and so forth. 300 00:18:49,944 --> 00:18:54,245 Um, where was the internet in 1990? 301 00:18:54,365 --> 00:18:59,284 I mean, it existed, but not like it does now. 302 00:18:59,304 --> 00:18:59,624 Right? 303 00:18:59,655 --> 00:19:02,034 I mean, not like it did even 20 years ago. 304 00:19:02,475 --> 00:19:03,764 Uh, and so... 305 00:19:04,235 --> 00:19:07,945 It's been, I think what you've identified is, is what a lot of us have been working 306 00:19:07,945 --> 00:19:11,495 on in accessibility is that, you know, general public awareness, if you talk 307 00:19:11,504 --> 00:19:15,714 about disability, um, or accessibility as it relates to physical buildings, it's 308 00:19:15,715 --> 00:19:19,284 like, oh, yeah, I understand that means we have to uh, you know, an elevator, 309 00:19:19,284 --> 00:19:21,134 whatever, whatever those things may be. 310 00:19:21,134 --> 00:19:21,715 There's many. 311 00:19:22,144 --> 00:19:26,675 Um, they're just, there's no real legislation that's been around as 312 00:19:26,675 --> 00:19:30,945 long to say, here's what it has to look like for digital spaces. 313 00:19:31,445 --> 00:19:34,794 Um, there is something for, for listeners, if they aren't familiar 314 00:19:34,794 --> 00:19:41,314 with, it's called the Web Accessibility Content Guidelines or WCAG. 315 00:19:41,804 --> 00:19:45,364 Some people pronounce that acronym WCAG or WCAG. 316 00:19:45,364 --> 00:19:47,254 It's, you know, any number of ways. 317 00:19:47,725 --> 00:19:49,435 Um, but this is a set of guidelines. 318 00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:55,530 It's not legislation, it's not a law, um, but it's a bunch of very intelligent 319 00:19:55,570 --> 00:19:59,139 people who know what they're doing with accessibility who've come together to 320 00:19:59,139 --> 00:20:04,779 put together, um, the set of guidelines to help all of us understand, okay, how 321 00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:06,909 do we make digital spaces accessible? 322 00:20:07,530 --> 00:20:12,210 Um, and so that exists and many entities, especially anyone out there who works 323 00:20:12,230 --> 00:20:15,460 for a university, you've probably heard, okay, well, our university 324 00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:18,560 says they're accessible for WCAG AA. 325 00:20:18,939 --> 00:20:20,629 Um, so there's different levels within it. 326 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:26,239 Um, so it's, it's used as a tool, um, to help people understand here's how 327 00:20:26,239 --> 00:20:28,539 we make digital spaces accessible. 328 00:20:28,899 --> 00:20:31,525 Um, and there's a whole bunch of other legislation that, that, We 329 00:20:31,525 --> 00:20:35,555 could certainly talk about or think about or that's coming down and 330 00:20:35,555 --> 00:20:37,065 thinking about these, these phsy... 331 00:20:37,065 --> 00:20:41,095 Uh these digital spaces, but um it's very interesting for that reason, 332 00:20:41,745 --> 00:20:45,324 because you're right that it is about awareness that some people are aware 333 00:20:45,324 --> 00:20:47,445 over here on this side, because it's. 334 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,210 There's laws, or it's been around a little bit longer, um, but the digital 335 00:20:52,220 --> 00:20:55,950 space is still a very interesting one, uh, to be, to be working 336 00:20:55,950 --> 00:20:57,530 in for accessibility, for sure. 337 00:20:58,429 --> 00:21:06,830 And, and I think that the, um, I think that the, um, the idea that, Uh, more 338 00:21:06,830 --> 00:21:09,480 and more services will be accessible. 339 00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:12,220 Um, it is a good thing you talked about some of the big tech 340 00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:13,790 companies who are participating. 341 00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:16,530 And by the way, I don't mean to, you know, Of course, yeah. 342 00:21:16,530 --> 00:21:21,839 keep up on them for not, um, for, for not, you know, if they have things 343 00:21:21,850 --> 00:21:25,209 that are, you know, that still need to, you know, improvements or whatnot. 344 00:21:25,459 --> 00:21:28,939 I'm just thinking more of the, you know, and it's not about a big tech company. 345 00:21:28,949 --> 00:21:33,465 It's about also, you know, Someone in a garage building the next, you 346 00:21:33,465 --> 00:21:38,135 know, really cool, you know, photo sharing app, you know, photo sharing 347 00:21:38,135 --> 00:21:42,074 app is actually, in fact, one of those things that's it's photo sharing app. 348 00:21:42,085 --> 00:21:47,134 How do I immediately think about photo sharing also being an accessible version 349 00:21:47,135 --> 00:21:49,294 of photo sharing from the get go? 350 00:21:49,504 --> 00:21:56,415 So if, if, if that's part of your own requirements, part of your own, you know, 351 00:21:56,425 --> 00:22:01,405 goals, then you might take the product in a completely different direction. 352 00:22:01,765 --> 00:22:02,185 Right. 353 00:22:02,565 --> 00:22:03,165 Absolutely. 354 00:22:03,165 --> 00:22:08,325 Um, and, and, and by the way, just it's, it's also happens to be good business 355 00:22:08,325 --> 00:22:13,175 because like you said, you know, maybe it's not one in four that you know, 356 00:22:13,175 --> 00:22:18,325 cannot access a photo, but there is some significant percentage still and 357 00:22:18,325 --> 00:22:23,635 laws of large numbers when, you know, a small percentage of a very large number 358 00:22:23,635 --> 00:22:25,645 is still a very, very large number. 359 00:22:26,135 --> 00:22:26,580 Um, right. 360 00:22:27,255 --> 00:22:29,625 And, and, and that's not something to ignore. 361 00:22:29,635 --> 00:22:34,975 Now, I do think that, um, and I, I, I don't know the history of this. 362 00:22:34,975 --> 00:22:38,615 I probably should because I was trained as an architect, um, for 363 00:22:38,615 --> 00:22:42,274 the, you know, sort of physical accessibility, you know, sort of history. 364 00:22:42,735 --> 00:22:50,200 Um, I see now that, um, All, if I'm correct, all at least federally 365 00:22:50,220 --> 00:22:55,129 funded websites and maybe even state funded websites usually are, 366 00:22:55,659 --> 00:22:57,609 are required to be accessible. 367 00:22:57,609 --> 00:22:58,280 Is that correct? 368 00:22:58,609 --> 00:23:01,459 Either they're required, or they are already being accessible. 369 00:23:01,659 --> 00:23:06,240 So this is an interesting question because if you so a lot of that comes 370 00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:10,860 through actually through the ADA, because of the way that it's written. 371 00:23:10,860 --> 00:23:16,520 It talks about public spaces needing to be accessible, and in rulings, 372 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,729 and I'll talk about a good resource to check out more in one second, 373 00:23:21,729 --> 00:23:24,540 but in a lot of these rulings and. 374 00:23:25,585 --> 00:23:26,855 Uh, what's the word I'm looking for? 375 00:23:26,865 --> 00:23:27,595 Lawsuits, I guess. 376 00:23:28,055 --> 00:23:33,995 Um, the argument is the Internet is a public space because 377 00:23:34,055 --> 00:23:35,434 everybody has access to it. 378 00:23:35,534 --> 00:23:40,454 I mean, of course, there's the question around actually having access in terms of 379 00:23:40,464 --> 00:23:47,034 bandwidth and ability, but as an entity, anyone who has the ability to get to 380 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,389 an internet space can get to it, right? 381 00:23:49,390 --> 00:23:54,690 So, so that's how, um, some of these have been, uh, litigated, I guess. 382 00:23:54,780 --> 00:23:58,370 Uh, and so when you think about that, you're like, okay, well, if the ADA 383 00:23:58,399 --> 00:24:03,200 covers, uh, or, or talks about public spaces needing to be accessible, 384 00:24:03,210 --> 00:24:07,350 like, you know, federal buildings and state buildings and universities and 385 00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:13,370 all of these places, um, that's how, the, the conversation comes about 386 00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:14,879 for digital accessibility as well. 387 00:24:14,889 --> 00:24:16,990 Well, it is a public domain. 388 00:24:16,990 --> 00:24:17,870 It's a public space. 389 00:24:17,870 --> 00:24:19,120 It needs to be accessible. 390 00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:22,829 Um, and for anyone who's like, wow, I'm really intrigued by this 391 00:24:22,829 --> 00:24:26,449 and I would like more information, um, a super great resource. 392 00:24:27,379 --> 00:24:30,790 Um, there's, uh, a good friend of Teach Access. 393 00:24:30,820 --> 00:24:34,349 Um, she's actually on our board as well, but Lainey Feingold. 394 00:24:34,629 --> 00:24:42,125 Um, and if I recall right off my brain, I think it's LFLegal dot com or dot org. 395 00:24:42,195 --> 00:24:48,685 I should have it memorized and I don't, um, but Lainey is, uh, is a well known, 396 00:24:49,054 --> 00:24:55,414 um, civil rights lawyer, disability rights lawyer, and her website has a ton of 397 00:24:55,414 --> 00:25:00,004 different information about, um, different current lawsuits and past lawsuits. 398 00:25:00,645 --> 00:25:03,325 Um, and just information about the legal aspect of it. 399 00:25:03,345 --> 00:25:07,135 So, um, for anyone out there who is really interested, her, her site is very 400 00:25:07,135 --> 00:25:11,565 approachable, very accessible, um, highly recommend taking a look, um, at that. 401 00:25:12,395 --> 00:25:14,775 We'll make sure to put that into, into the show notes. 402 00:25:15,145 --> 00:25:22,825 Now, um, Kate, I, I do think maybe this is anecdotal, but, um, my 403 00:25:23,025 --> 00:25:24,795 personal experience interacting with. 404 00:25:25,065 --> 00:25:30,865 You know, like, you know, federal, you know, websites and state websites, you 405 00:25:30,865 --> 00:25:35,235 know, basically, in other words, things like the DMV, where if you want to look 406 00:25:35,245 --> 00:25:39,484 for information about, you know, pretty much anything and, you know, in this 407 00:25:39,885 --> 00:25:46,180 sort of, uh, uh, in a, from a federal basis, especially, um, Most websites 408 00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:52,180 now are actually very accessible and quite, quite, uh, it's quite an amazing 409 00:25:52,180 --> 00:25:53,990 improvement from, from years ago. 410 00:25:54,510 --> 00:25:59,639 Um, in fact, I, I have found that through COVID when perhaps that's one of the, one 411 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,810 of the things that sort of instigated this during that time, we all need resources 412 00:26:04,810 --> 00:26:09,765 from our, our government, you know, in every dimension possible, whether it be 413 00:26:09,765 --> 00:26:15,665 for transportation to sanitation, to the CDC and, you know, all of that, right? 414 00:26:15,934 --> 00:26:19,575 So I feel like that everything got an upgrade in terms of accessibility. 415 00:26:20,035 --> 00:26:25,605 Um, and I, and, and, and I mentioned this also to observe that not 416 00:26:25,625 --> 00:26:27,345 only are they more accessible. 417 00:26:28,225 --> 00:26:31,465 But the websites generally are just better. 418 00:26:32,185 --> 00:26:36,075 They really are just, I feel like, you know, if we were to do a study, 419 00:26:36,255 --> 00:26:38,005 it would be objectively better. 420 00:26:38,005 --> 00:26:42,445 Just number of clicks to get to spaces, you know, being able to navigate, 421 00:26:42,574 --> 00:26:44,924 you know, clearly from one place, because those are actually some 422 00:26:44,924 --> 00:26:47,485 accessibility, um, guidelines as well. 423 00:26:47,504 --> 00:26:52,050 It's not always just about, you know, like, that's your Image have an alt text. 424 00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:52,870 Right. 425 00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:57,880 Um, and so it's, I think it's actually, it's, it's like accessibility 426 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:03,139 lift all boats, you know, we all get to enjoy a better, um, better 427 00:27:03,179 --> 00:27:05,259 designed websites and resources. 428 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:07,000 Absolutely. 429 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,059 And that's something, you know, it's important to me that when we're talking 430 00:27:10,059 --> 00:27:14,410 about accessibility, we really make sure we continue to center, um, disability 431 00:27:14,450 --> 00:27:21,105 as, you know, as a core part of why accessibility, uh, is a thing, right? 432 00:27:21,105 --> 00:27:25,825 Because we're creating products that aren't accessible and that's affecting 433 00:27:25,825 --> 00:27:29,405 the disability community, um, and impacting their ability to work with, 434 00:27:29,874 --> 00:27:32,795 uh, with those products, with those services, whatever they might be. 435 00:27:33,490 --> 00:27:37,820 That said, there is a lot around, and there's a lot of people who 436 00:27:37,820 --> 00:27:40,770 will talk about, and, and I have certainly been one of them, that 437 00:27:40,810 --> 00:27:42,760 accessibility is good for everybody. 438 00:27:43,139 --> 00:27:46,000 Um, and so I always like to make sure we don't lose track of the fact that 439 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,530 it, you know, I don't want to, you know, sort of erase the fact that 440 00:27:49,539 --> 00:27:54,090 the disability community is really at the core of the work, but, or and, 441 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,290 accessibility is great for everybody. 442 00:27:57,310 --> 00:28:02,475 And so earlier you were talking about, um, social media, and You know, I'm 443 00:28:02,475 --> 00:28:06,745 thinking of all of the different social media platforms right now 444 00:28:07,084 --> 00:28:09,564 that have captions that you can add. 445 00:28:09,885 --> 00:28:12,735 You know, thinking about TikTok videos, thinking about Instagram 446 00:28:12,735 --> 00:28:14,284 videos, etc., and there are more. 447 00:28:14,725 --> 00:28:21,585 Um, the fact that there are so many people who add them, Now, maybe some of them are 448 00:28:21,595 --> 00:28:26,665 adding them because they know it's helpful for, um, you know, certain disability 449 00:28:26,665 --> 00:28:31,194 populations, deaf, hard of hearing, hearing loss, you know, cognitive, um, 450 00:28:31,215 --> 00:28:37,414 other types of disabilities that benefit from having those captions, but it also 451 00:28:37,414 --> 00:28:41,835 benefits it perhaps language learners of whatever that language may be, um, 452 00:28:41,865 --> 00:28:45,524 to be able to see the text as they're, as, as you're hearing the language. 453 00:28:45,985 --> 00:28:51,375 Um, it also benefits, I mean, think of you're on a bus going from your 454 00:28:51,375 --> 00:28:54,964 home to your work or from, you know, your dormitory to your classroom 455 00:28:54,964 --> 00:28:57,984 building, whatever, wherever you're going, uh, and you don't have your 456 00:28:57,984 --> 00:29:02,004 headphones with you and you have your phone on silent, but you're watching 457 00:29:02,004 --> 00:29:05,234 the video and you can keep up because there's captions there, whether or not 458 00:29:05,234 --> 00:29:08,614 you identify as having a disability, you're benefiting from those captions. 459 00:29:08,674 --> 00:29:15,104 And so Um, there are a number of, so many more examples, of course, we can, uh, talk 460 00:29:15,114 --> 00:29:18,985 through, uh, or that, that I'm sure others would, would think of as well, where 461 00:29:19,185 --> 00:29:25,805 it's, it was specifically designed as, as access, you know, assistive technology 462 00:29:25,805 --> 00:29:29,585 or accessibility, however you want to call it, um, but that it benefits others. 463 00:29:30,075 --> 00:29:34,305 Um, and I think that's a really important piece, um, to know that when. 464 00:29:34,784 --> 00:29:37,495 You know, we hear this sometimes when people are like, but I don't 465 00:29:37,495 --> 00:29:40,094 have any, you know, students with disabilities in my class. 466 00:29:40,144 --> 00:29:43,024 So why would I do this or whatever it might be? 467 00:29:43,024 --> 00:29:45,144 Well, first of all, you don't know that you don't. 468 00:29:45,485 --> 00:29:47,064 Maybe they haven't disclosed that to you. 469 00:29:47,914 --> 00:29:53,400 But also, It's just good, good design or it's good, um, you 470 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,710 know, user experience to be able to include some of these things. 471 00:29:57,170 --> 00:30:01,319 Um, and it, it often doesn't take too much effort to be able to add these 472 00:30:01,350 --> 00:30:04,780 things, um, to what you're creating and it, and it helps everybody. 473 00:30:05,740 --> 00:30:07,100 Yeah, I, I, I agree. 474 00:30:07,100 --> 00:30:11,560 I think it's, it's definitely one of those things is things that, um, you 475 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,990 know, I, I like to think of it almost like cooking, you know, like it, it's like the 476 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,680 special spice that it's so easy to have. 477 00:30:18,710 --> 00:30:22,110 And then when you use it, you know, it's, it's food just tastes better. 478 00:30:23,270 --> 00:30:24,800 In general, why are we doing it? 479 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,020 And so I think it's more like how can people get, and it's not expensive, 480 00:30:30,050 --> 00:30:35,290 you know, so it's, it's, it's a, it's a, um, it's something to, you know, to 481 00:30:35,290 --> 00:30:40,789 be aware of, because I really believe that it's not like, does it add an 482 00:30:40,790 --> 00:30:45,239 additional cost to product development as a product developer, I would say. 483 00:30:46,095 --> 00:30:52,365 Yes, but there is a big but here, but it keeps us more disciplined 484 00:30:52,405 --> 00:30:53,815 in how we design our product. 485 00:30:54,655 --> 00:30:57,125 So we got a better product that comes out of it. 486 00:30:57,985 --> 00:31:01,625 It's almost like it did some free work for us to get our product better. 487 00:31:02,415 --> 00:31:07,414 And so I don't know, like, maybe you can look at a line item and say, well, 488 00:31:07,414 --> 00:31:11,195 we needed, you know, something took longer or whatever, you know, like I 489 00:31:11,195 --> 00:31:16,054 had to hire additional headcounts to, to make this work, but I think that 490 00:31:16,054 --> 00:31:18,225 the product was better at the end. 491 00:31:18,225 --> 00:31:22,351 I don't know whether I can really sort of like justify like exactly how, 492 00:31:22,351 --> 00:31:26,175 how much, how many percent better is it worth that exact dollar amount. 493 00:31:26,565 --> 00:31:31,860 But I would argue at least for me right now, I wouldn't be able to go back to 494 00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:37,540 not considering it because overall it creates, there's a lot of other things 495 00:31:37,540 --> 00:31:43,109 too, like for me, it literally go into even recruiting, I wouldn't, if I hire... 496 00:31:43,659 --> 00:31:44,299 So two things, right? 497 00:31:44,315 --> 00:31:47,595 If I hire someone today who doesn't care about it, I probably 498 00:31:47,595 --> 00:31:48,715 wouldn't want to hire them. 499 00:31:49,975 --> 00:31:53,645 But if I hire someone today who cares about them and they see 500 00:31:53,645 --> 00:31:57,164 that we don't care about it, they wouldn't want to come work for us. 501 00:31:57,164 --> 00:32:00,465 So it's kind of like, uh, it's, uh, it exists in, in. 502 00:32:00,665 --> 00:32:04,915 It permeates itself into every layer of everything that we do. 503 00:32:05,445 --> 00:32:10,635 Um, so I can't imagine it being like, it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's not only 504 00:32:10,635 --> 00:32:14,225 a great thing and it helps us in so many ways, it's basically win, win, win, 505 00:32:14,225 --> 00:32:16,314 win, win at every layer that we go to. 506 00:32:16,615 --> 00:32:17,085 Right. 507 00:32:17,604 --> 00:32:20,504 And like from the cost standpoint, and I was trying to think as you were talking, 508 00:32:20,574 --> 00:32:24,244 if there are specific examples I can come up with or resources, they might, 509 00:32:24,264 --> 00:32:25,474 they might occur to me in a minute. 510 00:32:25,874 --> 00:32:28,325 Um, but in terms of the cost, sure. 511 00:32:28,355 --> 00:32:32,670 Maybe there's a small cost or like you said, maybe a harder to define cost if 512 00:32:32,670 --> 00:32:38,830 it's about the, the, um, team that you need to assemble or specific, whatever 513 00:32:38,830 --> 00:32:41,930 it might be, um, a little extra time to be able to make it accessible. 514 00:32:42,070 --> 00:32:42,450 Okay. 515 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,359 But what we know is that what's actually the most costly is if you 516 00:32:47,359 --> 00:32:50,960 don't do that from the beginning, and then you have something that you're 517 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,010 ready to ship software code, whatever it might be an actual product, and 518 00:32:55,010 --> 00:32:56,570 you haven't made it accessible. 519 00:32:56,570 --> 00:33:01,235 Um, And you realize either right before, that's what's costly because now you're 520 00:33:01,235 --> 00:33:06,755 like, okay, do we ship it anyway, knowing it's not accessible, which damages your 521 00:33:06,755 --> 00:33:11,345 brand and means your user, like you can't reach all of the users you possibly 522 00:33:11,345 --> 00:33:13,895 can, um, because they can't access it. 523 00:33:13,895 --> 00:33:16,895 They can't use the tool or, or whatever it is we're talking about. 524 00:33:17,414 --> 00:33:21,055 Um, or you say, okay, pause, we aren't going to be able to. 525 00:33:21,380 --> 00:33:24,290 put out this release or whatever it might be, uh, because we 526 00:33:24,290 --> 00:33:25,590 need to make it accessible. 527 00:33:25,940 --> 00:33:30,389 Now that's costing you money because now you're, you know, it's delaying, yeah, 528 00:33:30,460 --> 00:33:32,250 all of the things that, that go into that. 529 00:33:32,250 --> 00:33:36,729 And so, um, that's where I was saying, I was trying to think of a specific example 530 00:33:36,740 --> 00:33:40,620 or resource I could point you to, but there is a lot out there that talks about 531 00:33:40,639 --> 00:33:44,765 how The cost of accessibility is actually when you don't make something accessible 532 00:33:45,035 --> 00:33:50,075 and then have all of that associated, um, stuff and activity around it versus, 533 00:33:50,205 --> 00:33:52,445 okay, let's build it from the beginning. 534 00:33:53,055 --> 00:33:56,455 Crucially, let's make sure that we're including people with disabilities 535 00:33:56,485 --> 00:34:00,390 through the entire process so that it's not just, also a thing at the end, 536 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,980 it's from the beginning, all the way through, you know, ideation, testing, 537 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,369 prototyping, all of those things, depending on how you're creating products, 538 00:34:09,410 --> 00:34:15,030 but, um, that's, that's really where the cost comes in, um, is not doing it. 539 00:34:15,410 --> 00:34:20,755 So, and, and by the way, some of these sort of harder to to measured cost 540 00:34:20,765 --> 00:34:25,545 is some of them are, you just can't, you know, you, you can't even fathom, 541 00:34:25,575 --> 00:34:30,185 you know, things like, because if it affects, for example, the retention 542 00:34:30,185 --> 00:34:32,204 of your own employees, that's right. 543 00:34:32,364 --> 00:34:33,465 What, what's that cost. 544 00:34:33,635 --> 00:34:35,305 That's an incredible cost. 545 00:34:36,044 --> 00:34:39,155 You know, if your employee leaves you because they go, I don't 546 00:34:39,155 --> 00:34:43,585 want to work for an organization where we don't care about this. 547 00:34:43,695 --> 00:34:49,960 And when, uh, users ask us about it, our, you know, decision maker just 548 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,360 simply said that's not going to be part of, you know, what we do, right? 549 00:34:54,370 --> 00:34:55,060 I can't live with it. 550 00:34:55,685 --> 00:34:56,045 Right? 551 00:34:56,075 --> 00:35:00,515 Like you said, everyone, even if they are not themselves, have any, identify 552 00:35:00,515 --> 00:35:04,485 with any disabilities, they know someone who is, someone close to them is their 553 00:35:04,495 --> 00:35:06,375 best friend, their family member. 554 00:35:06,395 --> 00:35:07,030 That's right. 555 00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:07,524 Right? 556 00:35:07,705 --> 00:35:11,680 And their family members may not be today, but they may be You know, as 557 00:35:11,710 --> 00:35:15,730 they age and, you know, and so on, they, you know, so it's, it affects 558 00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:18,000 all of us and themselves too, right? 559 00:35:18,030 --> 00:35:18,750 Absolutely. 560 00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:22,429 For someone to like, you know, to, to not have that. 561 00:35:22,429 --> 00:35:26,439 I mean, the, the, the cost is unmeasurable in my mind, you 562 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,230 know, the lot is unmeasurable. 563 00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:33,960 Um, so I, I don't, I hope that people who, who might listen to this will, will, will 564 00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:36,630 agree that it's, it's not even a choice. 565 00:35:36,780 --> 00:35:39,690 It's not a, well, maybe one day we'll, we'll get to it. 566 00:35:39,770 --> 00:35:40,320 Um, right. 567 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,640 It's, it's just something that, you know, to me, it goes into, you know, it, 568 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:51,300 it becomes a, uh, you know, like before everyone's aware, it's fine because we 569 00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:52,659 just didn't know what we didn't know. 570 00:35:52,989 --> 00:35:56,539 Now that we, we, I think when you starting to get to a point, especially 571 00:35:56,540 --> 00:36:01,700 with your help, you know, spreading the word to, to everyone, it's going to get 572 00:36:01,700 --> 00:36:04,050 to a point where it's not acceptable. 573 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:05,910 I think that's a world we want to live in. 574 00:36:06,270 --> 00:36:06,460 Yes. 575 00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:07,800 It's not acceptable. 576 00:36:08,180 --> 00:36:10,020 You know, correct. 577 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,105 Here is a preview of what's coming up next in Part 2 of my conversation with Kate 578 00:36:15,105 --> 00:36:18,175 Sonka, Executive Director of Teach Access. 579 00:36:18,495 --> 00:36:22,795 I mean, as students are putting their work out there, um, being able 580 00:36:22,795 --> 00:36:27,105 to demonstrate, hey, I know what accessibility is, generally speaking, 581 00:36:27,484 --> 00:36:31,075 and I've done a couple things to my portfolio to make it more accessible. 582 00:36:31,405 --> 00:36:32,545 That indicates a lot. 583 00:36:33,505 --> 00:36:36,385 You know, they're thinking about inclusivity, they're thinking about the 584 00:36:36,385 --> 00:36:40,005 different ways they're presenting their materials, um, and their artifacts, 585 00:36:40,535 --> 00:36:42,595 uh, and their work to the world.