Coming up on the Devil's Details, turns out the Devil is a Millennial Revelation Chapter 20. What does that mean? He likes he likes avocado toast.

He's destroying the diamond industry. Uh-huh. The paper towel industry.

He has it so much better than his his mother and father Devil. And he's just ungrateful. No, that's absolutely not true. Has it much, much, much harder. Shut up, mom and dad Devil.

Oh, sympathy for the Devil.

Yeah. Really.

Yeah. He can't afford his own condo. He has to go and live in the bottomless pit. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. With with 10,000,000,000 roommates.

That's the Devil's problem. He has anxiety. Good morning, Star, and welcome to another episode of the Devil's Details, a show where we dig up, decipher, dissect, deconstruct the many forms of the One of my names is Lester Ryan Clark.

And I sometimes go by Kynan Dias.

And we're just two lost souls hitchhiking down the highway to hell. And, yeah, folks, welcome back. We are on chapter 20 of Revelation, and folks, this is the chapter that has caused more theological arguments than maybe any other chapter in the entire bible. This is where we get the thousand year reign, the millennium, and depending on which Christian denomination you ask, you're gonna get wildly different interpretations of what that means. We got premillennialists, postmillennialists, amillennialists, xenialists, and they have been fighting about this for literally centuries.

Yeah. Infighting and leaving the the boomers and the zoomers out of it.

Yes. Yes. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Which they should all really team up against the Boomers who still have a death grip on this world. They wanna be here for the for the the end time so bad that they're trying to they're trying to make it happen before they they shuffle off.

That's right.

Yeah. But but, yeah, we're also gonna see Satan get bound then released. Apparently, he's into that.

Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're saying that there's a lot of chains and and and locks and and binding in this chapter.

Yes. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. They're not just being chained or using chains. They're wearing chains.

Yes. Then,

yeah, they they yeah. Mhmm. It's a fashion choice for

sure. Mhmm. His safety word is six six six. Yeah. But then he's gonna finally get thrown into the lake of fire for good, and we are gonna get the final judgment scene with the book of life and the second death, and folks, it is a lot.

So without further ado, let's get into it. Mhmm. This is Revelation Chapter 20, and I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent which is the Devil and Satan and bound him a thousand years and cast him into the bottomless pit and shut him up and set a seal upon him that he should deceive the nations no more till a thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection, on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the camp of the saints about and the beloved city, and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. And I saw a great white throne and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them, and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Okay. Sounds pretty simple to me. I don't see what people are arguing about.

It's very clear. Simple.

Yeah. No. I I I am being facetious.

I don't what Yes. Yes.

Yes. You guys are we've got three chapters left after last week. I was like, okay. We're gonna just wrap this up. I I get this now.

Mhmm. Explain it to me, and now this one, I have no idea what's going on again.

Yeah. Yeah. This one this one is like, it it's hard to interpret it any other way than than how most people have been interpreting it. But

even then yeah. But but you you see why people would jump to, like, oh, that must mean something else beyond what what it's actually saying, that literal thousand years, etcetera. And and and, you know, Lester does a great job with these readings, as as a lot of our listeners say. But he has to read sentences that start in the past tense and then go into the present tense and then go into the the future tense, and that's not easy.

And just the natural rhythm of of, you know, I don't wanna say modern English, like modern modern English, current modern English.

Good English.

But no, just the rhythm has changed so much to where it's like I'm I'm walking up a flight of stairs and there's an extra step. It's like, and the eggs, and the chickens, and the geese.

Mhmm. Well, no, but it'd be like the chickens were because geese are and the eggs shall be.

Yes.

And again, I I I read the I read the literal version as well as the King James, that's in the the literal version as well. Mhmm. So good King James is trying his best.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not we can't blame King James for this.

For this one. Yeah.

Yeah. We can we can blame him for quite a bit of other stuff, but but not this.

Right.

But okay. So so let's look at this chapter in in particular. So in the popular end times theology, chapter 20 is the chronological sequence of events after Jesus returns. He's defeated the beast and the false prophet in chapter 19, and now Satan gets locked up in the bottomless pit for a thousand literal years, a thousand. During this millennium, Jesus reigns on earth with the martyrs and the saints who were resurrected.

This is the first resurrection. Everyone else is still dead.

Mhmm.

Alright? And then after a thousand years, Satan gets released for, quote, a little season and immediately goes back to his old tricks, gathering the nations, Gog and Magog, which okay. I guess we gotta, like, kind of explain what these are. I I Mhmm. I still kind of don't know.

I've been I've been researching. I still don't know. Mhmm. And and apparently, nobody does. It's it's been debated whether or not they were actual nations or this is, like, shorthand for, like, meaning, like, like, a big nation or something like that.

Yeah. Like, everybody.

Everybody. Right? So, like, like, the word magog in in Hebrew, probably constructed as ma plus gog, like, where like, ma is a Hebrew prefix, meaning, like, the land of or the place of. Right. So ma Gog literally just means the land of Gog.

Yes. But then Gog itself is is equally, like, cryptic. Like like, we don't have a clear historical nation or king named Gog that, like, Ezekiel was was obviously referencing. Mhmm. You have the Gigs of Lydia.

Right? Seventh century BC Lydian king whose name in Akkadian was was Gugu. He could be talking about that guy. And and Goo Goo in Akkadian meant darkness.

Mhmm. So Gog might be Goo Goo?

Yes. Gog might be it might be from the gigs of Lydia whose king was Goo Goo. Right? In Genesis 10, the table of nations, Magog appears as a grandson of Noah listed alongside other names like Gomer Mhmm. Madai, Yavan, Tubal, and and Meshech.

I think Meshech. Yeah. Meshech. Yeah. Most of these names do correspond to actual ancient peoples.

Gomer is the Cimmerians, Madai is the Medes, Yavan is the Greeks, and Tobiah and Meshech are real Anatolian peoples mentioned in Assyrian records. So Magog is in a list of real ethnonyms

Okay.

Which suggests it may have referred to real people or not. Or it could be it could be the same thing that that John is doing, like, when he says Babylon when he's talking about Rome. You know? Yes. The horror of Babylon is the horror of Rome because Rome is Babylon.

Yeah. Yeah. And Gog and Magog are are are are not Gog and Magog.

Gog might have been a bad person that Ezekiel was writing about, and so his country, which is the land of Gog Magog, might have been bad because Gog is bad or vice versa. Uh-huh. Where the land might be blasphemed as as bad because Gog is bad.

Right.

Yeah. And we didn't maybe neither of them existed. Mhmm. Mhmm. I I did see that in some, like, tales of Alexander the Great from medieval time.

They were Goth and Magothy. Oh. Gog and Magog. So Oh,

there we go.

So I guess we just yeah. We had fun, didn't we? Yes. But Okay, so whatever this is, like here, we're using it to mean another country or all the countries. I don't understand why it wouldn't be just saying Babylon again.

Right. Babylon or just like all the nations or, you know

Yeah. Why don't we why do we benefit from bringing Gog and Magog into this on chapter nineteenth and I don't know.

They I'm sorry. Like, they just sound like Mhmm. Like two fantasy characters.

Yeah.

Like like like two, like like like monsters that you team up with to to go kill Kefka or something.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yep. You know? Yep.

And then Gog Magog as one name is a British giant who used to stock Cornwall and and, like, the what is this? The twelfth century.

Oh, see? That's what I mean. Like, that

But there's one person.

Okay. Gog Magog. Gog Magog. Well, that's how Ferguson comes about and and Anderson and and and and all of the the things son because it's like, I am Ferguson's son.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

So Gog Magog.

Gog is Magog's

Yep.

Mhmm. Person or vice versa.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. So now you know.

So anybody out there

named Gog or Magog Mhmm. Now you know where that comes from. Actually, you don't.

No, you don't.

You're welcome.

I was trying to figure out how to to help out. I could be like like pose a helpful question like, Uncle Lester Mhmm. What's gogging magog? Or or whether it'd better as as Gollum to be. Habits is what's gogging magog?

So whichever one you think is easier for you to answer.

You boil them, mash them, stick them in the bible. Gog Magog. There we go. Now somebody somebody auto tuned that. No.

Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah, I'm gonna I I don't think it's being blasphemous because you don't really know who Gog and Magog are, so I'm gonna

just translate it

as or what they are. Right? So I'm choosing to translate this as what's his name and wherever he's from. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. So we're we're with what's his name and wherever he's from.

Actually, yeah, that that might be this this might be this this mysterious thing that historians and and scholars are puzzling over and linguists as well might be the equivalent of what's his face. Those guys over there. Mhmm. You know, the garg and the magog.

Yeah. My professor used to call us, when he couldn't remember our names, monkey boy. What? So everyone is everyone is monkey boy. Hang on.

Hang on.

This is this is an entirely new conversation. Is your professor still working?

No. He no. No. Okay. Christ.

If if, like, he was talking about you to me and he didn't remember your name, be like, and how's monkey boy?

I guess we're all monkey boys. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's monkey boy. Yeah.

Jesus. Oh my god. Mhmm. Oh my god. No.

It's oh my god.

Mhmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway okay. Gosh. Okay.

Let's let's let's move past this. But, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so gathering all the nations, Gog and Magog. Mhmm. Gosh, Gog and Magog.

Oh, and to be clear, these are Satan's buddies. Yes. We we can make fun of them. They're not good people. If you can't tell These are bad

They should've I mean, pain and panic are good names. Yeah. But but Gog and Magog, honestly. Yeah. But gathering them together, you know, for one final battle against God's people.

Mhmm. But fire comes down from heaven and devours them, and Satan gets thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet already are. That's kinda weird. Yep. So Satan's not there, but the beast and the false prophet are already there.

Uh-huh. Okay. And and and they're all tormented forever.

Mhmm.

Right? Okay. Alright. So then we get the great white throne of judgment. Why does it gotta be white?

I don't know. But but but judgment? Okay. Yeah. That yep.

That that tracks. Mhmm. So judgy. But oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Great white throne of judgment where everyone who has ever lived gets resurrected. This is the second resurrection, and they're judged based on what's written in the books. If your name is in the book of life, you're good.

Mhmm.

If not, you get thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Yes. You've been resurrected to get punished anew. Like, maybe you have died before, and Mhmm. You've been in not quite I was gonna say purgatory, but that's a that's another concept and all that. But you've been you've been in limbo, which is another concept.

You've been

where have you been?

Yeah. Wait. Where where have you been?

You've just been dead, I guess.

Yeah. I guess.

Right. And so you're being revived from that death in order to be judged and be hurt even more, punished even more forever and ever.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

I mean, well, it says this is the second death. Mhmm. So it says, like, literal translation, it says that the the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet

Mhmm.

Are thrown into the lake of fire to be tortured forever and ever. Mhmm. Amen. But everyone who is not in the book of life is also thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Mhmm.

Now I'm assuming that most people are assuming that means that they're also tortured forever and ever. Amen.

Yep. That's how I read it.

But could this just mean, like, oblivion?

With fire.

Well, yes. But, like, but not forever and ever.

But, again, yeah, there there is an abyss in the book of Revelation, and there is a a lake of fire. So these are two different places. So we're not putting back into nothingness. We're specifically putting them in a place with fire and sulfur.

Yeah. Yeah. But remember, we were talking last week about how fire could be well, I guess we gotta wait for the the the scholarly interpretation for this. But, like, the idea that, like, fire just equals, like, like, we're we're completely obliterating this thing. Mhmm.

You know?

Which is different from the void? Yeah. I Being in the void versus not existing.

Well, because when they describe the like Mhmm. Our description of the void, I think, has been colored by, like, centuries of of stuff. I think when they say the void, it could be, like, it could have nothing to do or, like, when they say the abyss Mhmm. It could have nothing to do with, like, nonexistence. It could just be a, you know, a deep, dark pit Mhmm.

Where, you know, all the monsters are just down there playing Uno.

That's that's as bad as a lake of fire?

No. I'm not saying that's as bad. I'm just saying I'm just saying Mhmm. We've attributed characteristics to both the abyss and to the lake of fire.

Uh-huh.

And I'm saying that if we read this literally, and this is before we even get to the, you know, the the scholarly interpretation, but if we just take this literally Mhmm. I think we attributed oblivion, just not existing, to the wrong place. Okay. I think it it fits more, just the way I'm reading it, to this lake of fire because then something is dead, gone, kaput, it's like burned up, it's it's completely erased. Mhmm.

Versus the abyss, which could literally just mean a pit, where you throw something into a pit, it's still down there. Mhmm. It still exists.

Yeah. So you the the I don't know. Are you trying to so the lake of fire, you know, they're tormented forever and ever.

The the beast and the and the and the the dragon and the false prophet.

Right. You just don't want the other people to be tormented forever and ever.

Well, I'm just saying, like, it it doesn't necessarily say that they are tormented forever and ever.

It does not say that.

Yeah. It just says it just says that's the second death. Mhmm. So I'm wondering and it also, like, maybe we were wrong about the other thing because it says all the all the people that were in hell came out of hell to be judged.

Mhmm.

It doesn't say all the people that were in the Lake Of Fire. So now it's it seems to be differentiating between hell and the Lake Of Fire.

Oh, good.

Well, no. I'm I'm what I'm saying is

You're right. Mhmm.

Like like but do you see what I mean? So so so it's like it could be that Mhmm. Okay. You're judged. You're not in the book of life.

Too bad, so sad. Mhmm. You get thrown into the lake you don't go back to hell.

You do not know.

You go into the lake of fire Mhmm. Which is the second death, which, like, what if that just means, like, poof, you're gone and not suffering forever and ever?

Well, okay. I guess, yeah, I guess I'm assuming that it it it has the same rules that basically, like, you know, if one thing goes in and is tormented forever and ever, then another thing should go in and get tormented forever and ever.

But the like like, we're not gonna, like, so we're we're kind of, like, assuming that we're gonna get the same treatment as Mhmm. The great red dragon.

I don't see why not. You're throwing him into a giant He's the

great red dragon. He's the he's the origin of all of this.

He's the, you You are I think you are trying to find god being nice here. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think if you want that, I don't think you need to look at Revelation. Yeah.

Yeah. Actually, this not Ugh. God. I I I feel bad for the lawyer who's who's who's got this case. But, yeah, this is all very literal.

It's very sequential. It's very like, oh, this is exactly how the end of the world is is gonna happen. And, folks, people have built entire theological systems. We just tried to do one around representation of the church. Right?

That's amillennialism. Mhmm. Alright? And and honestly, I think they're all missing the point. Mhmm.

So let's talk about what John is actually doing here because this chapter is not a chronological road map of future events as as we have said many and many a time before. It is apocalyptic literature. It's and apocalyptic literature doesn't work like that. It's symbolic. It's cyclical.

It's using numbers and images to convey theological truths, not, you know, give us a timeline. So so verse one, right, I saw an angel come down from heaven having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Right? Mhmm. So an angel, not Jesus, not God, just an angel.

And he's got the key to the abyss and a chain, and he's gonna bind Satan. And folks, the fact that it's just an angel doing this tells us something. Satan isn't this all powerful cosmic force that requires God himself to defeat him. An angel can handle it. Quote, and he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent which is the devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.

Okay. So John uses four names here, the dragon, the serpent, the devil, and Satan. He is piling them on, making sure we know exactly who we're talking about. This is the ultimate enemy. This is the deceiver, the accuser.

He is getting bound for, quote, a thousand years. Now is this a literal thousand years? Folks, I don't think so. The number 1,000 in apocalyptic literature represents completeness, fullness, a divinely appointed period of time. Right?

It's 10 times 10 times 10. Right? 10 being, you know, the number of completeness completeness. So a thousand years is John's way of saying a complete and perfect period of time as long as God wants it to be. Right?

And what happens during this time? Satan is prevented from deceiving the nations. He can't do his thing. He is locked up. And then we get verse four.

Right? Quote, and I saw thrones and they sat upon and they and they sat upon them. Yep. And judgment was given unto them. Okay.

Because thrones is a rank of angel, but it's also a throne.

I think this is a throne. Yeah.

But who's they then?

Alright. Let's see. They cast him. They saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them.

Judgment was given unto them. Meaning the power of judgment or judgment?

One

word could could fix this, John. And I saw thrones and they that sat upon them.

Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them. These were the ones who had been given the power to judge.

Well. We're almost done with Revelation. Have we made a mistake reading the King James version?

Oh, wow. That's that's the pretty one.

Yeah. That is. Yeah. Okay. Alright.

Mhmm.

Well, but that that's what people have built their their whole lives on is that version and then

Is that version. Right. But yeah. And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and which had and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Mhmm.

So the martyrs right? These are the martyrs. The martyrs are reigning with Christ, the people who were killed for refusing to worship the beast, right, And people who stayed faithful even when it cost them their lives. Right? They they're vindicated.

They are reigning. Right? Mhmm. And folks, I think this is John's way of saying to his community, you might die. You might be executed.

Rome might kill you, but that's not the end. You're going to reign with Christ. Your faithfulness matters. Your witness matters. Death is not defeat.

The quote, this is the first resurrection. Right? The martyrs are raised to life and reign with Christ. Right? They're priests of God and quote, on such the second death hath no power.

So the second death, right, well, you know, we're gonna we're gonna get to that. But the point is the martyrs are beyond its reach. They've already conquered death by being faithful unto death. Okay. So now we got verse seven, and when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

Folks, this is the part that always confused me when I first read it. Why would God release Satan? Why let him out to cause more trouble?

Yeah. Why would God release Satan? Why let him out to cause more trouble?

This is this is the problem of evil right here. Right? Mhmm. But I think what John is saying here is that evil is persistent. Deception is persistent.

You can defeat one empire, one beast, one manifestation of oppression, but unless the root is dealt with, it's gonna come back. Satan being released is John's way of saying there's gonna be another empire, another beast, another Rome, another cycle of deception and oppression. Alright? Quote, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. So Okay.

Gog and Magog. These names come from Ezekiel thirty eight and thirty nine where they represent the ultimate enemies of God's people, the final assault. John is using them here to represent all the nations, the four corners of the earth, everyone who has been deceived by Satan. And they surround the quote camp of the saints and the quote beloved city. God's people, right, they're gonna destroy them.

They're gonna finally win and then quote, fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. Alright. So it's over, just just like that. They don't even get close. God's people don't have to fight.

Fire from heaven just wipes them out. And then, verse 10, quote, and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. This is it. This is the final defeat of Satan, not just bound, not just locked up, but permanently eternally defeated, cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet. And folks, the lake of fire in Revelation represents total permanent destruction.

It's the second death. It's not torture. It's not God gleefully tormenting people for eternity, though I know that's, you know, how it gets interpreted. It's the complete and final end of evil.

Okay. But But why why not just do that the first time? Why why release him and then have even if it's not a literal thousand it's some measure of time where where Satan is loosed for a little season.

Yeah. I think we still keep on reading it. Like, we can't help read it literally in in even when we're looking at the the the coded language that that John is using. Mhmm. I think what he's meaning is like, God has nothing to do with this.

I think what he's saying is empires rise and fall. Mhmm. And he's using God releasing the dragon as a metaphor for it's almost like you're saying the world is going to make a new Caesar. Mhmm. Right?

And then that Caesar is going to be killed Mhmm. And that empire is gonna fall, so it's like the dragon gets bound. But eventually, a new Caesar is gonna is gonna pop up. Mhmm. Or quote unquote be released from his chains.

Mhmm. Okay.

So we're we're kind of we're we're working metaphorically here saying, like, you know, that like this empire and this empire have nothing to do with each other. But if we look at it like, you know, if we zoom out, it's like, oh, it's almost like it's the same empire, and it just keeps on popping up again. Mhmm. So it keeps on getting out of its prison.

Okay. But then eventually it will

not. Exactly.

Okay. Yeah. I guess I guess it is hard to even within you know, even if we're accepting it as coded, the weird things John does with his language, you know, he's he's quoting Ezekiel and the old prophets, but then he's also like, at this point, you know, reincorporating things in the beginning of his book in Revelation. So this angel that came down from heaven,

he has

the the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. But in in chapter one, Jesus says that he, Jesus, has the keys of of of hell and death.

Yeah. Yeah.

So so it's hard to like to to let go and to say here, this is this angel is not God. It isn't it's an angel. It's just a I minor

wanna know. I'm curious, like, especially with this chapter. Mhmm. I'm curious how John actually perceives God. Mhmm.

Could it be that he is perceiving God as less of a character than even we are? Mhmm. And he is like, if if you just if you swap out like, if you take all of Revelation and and what is it? Control f?

Control find. Yeah.

Yeah. Mhmm. And and swap out god for time or destiny or nature or fate. And and then we read it and see it's like, you know, you know, and and, you know, fate loosed to the devil again. Mhmm.

And the devil was wreaking havoc havoc, you know, eventually, you know, the devil's own fate is is to, you know, shoot himself in the foot and and die of his own destructive nature. Mhmm. But then as fate would have it, you know, another dragon shows up. Like, if we read it that way and take take the word god out of it Mhmm. And and talk about it, like, in that way, then it seems to be closer to what John is trying to say, which makes me wonder I I look.

You you had this question in our Paradise Lost season, Keenan. But you asked and and you you were you were hesitant to to ask it because it like, on the surface, it sounded kind of like a silly question, but I don't think it was. Mhmm. But you you asked how religious is Milton? Mhmm.

You know, the author of Paradise Lost.

Right.

And we kind of concluded. It's like, well, he's he's kind of like playing with the theology, the Christian theology. Mhmm. He's he's, like like, he's taking all the names of the places and the characters, and he's, like, building his own epic like like the like like the Iliad or or the oh, what's the other one? Odyssey.

The Odyssey. Right? The the Magogacy. Right? But now I'm looking at Revelation in this way, and I'm wondering, how religious is John?

Mhmm. Is he super religious and and, like, whenever he mentions God, he's talking about literal God, Yahweh, or is he using apocalyptic literature and talking about, like, the, you know, the rise and fall of empires and using it in a language that his readers will understand, and we can just kind of, like, swap out the word God for time Mhmm. Or fate or destiny or something.

Okay.

I wonder. And then, you know, fast forward two thousand years and, you know, the evangelicals pick this up and and god seems like like a a a smiting trigger happy old man who just wants to throw everybody into a lake of fire. Mhmm. Right? I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. This is this is raising more questions than than than answers. But, yeah, that's just kinda like my take combined with what I'm seeing, you know, scholar scholars and and and cultural historians Mhmm. Have have found that that this lake of fire just actually means like destruction Mhmm.

And rather than like eternal torture. Mhmm. But then, okay, yeah, we get the great white throne of judgment. Right? And I saw a great white throne and him that sat on it from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them.

Right? So so the old heaven so the old heaven and earth flee away. This is the end of the old creation. Everything is being made new. Alright?

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God and the books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works. So everyone is judged, small and great, right, and they're judged quote according to their works, not according to whether they said the, you know, the right prayer or believed the right theology. Right? But according to what they did, how they lived, how they treated others. Alright?

And there's there's two sets of books. Right? The the books that record everyone's deeds and the book of life. And whoever and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Right?

And folks, here's here's what I think John is saying. The final judgment isn't arbitrary. It's not God randomly deciding who gets in and who doesn't. It's based on how people lived. Did they worship the beast?

Did they participate in empire's violence? Did they take the you know quote unquote mark? Or did they stay faithful? Did they live righteously? Did they refuse to participate in the system?

Right? The book of life contains the names of the faithful. Those people who chose God over empire, or you could say love over violence. Right? Truth over deception.

Right? And quote, death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. So death itself is destroyed. Hell or Hades, right, the the the realm of the dead is destroyed.

The old order, the order of death and violence and empire is all gone, cast into the lake of fire. Not the death of the body, right, that's that's the death that everyone experiences. The second death is permanent, final end of everything that opposes God.

Mhmm.

So I like that interpretation, the idea that like, it's almost like the hell that we created on Earth is cast into the lake of fire. Like evil is cast into the lake of fire.

Yeah. So then you could see how if we're now transferring hell from one bag of holding into the lake of fire, then another bag of holding, like, why why we why we now potentially read hell as fiery. And Yeah. Yeah. Hades and hell, which have not been fiery before.

Mhmm. And not necessarily even like in the ground, in the ground somewhere, like a lake of fire saying it's in the ground, I think. It's sort of implied there. Right? And now we're putting all that in there, and so it's all getting mismatched together as one.

Thanks, Jean.

Well, but, like, I think I think that's how it's interpreted is like, okay. Now now the land of the dead where, you know, people people who don't get into the heaven club Mhmm. Is is on fire because it's in the lake of fire. Right? Mhmm.

I think that's that's the the popular interpretation, but I think what what John is saying based on on these scholars, is the land of the dead is is no more. It's empty. It's it's like it's it's gone. We don't need

to die anymore.

Right? Yeah. Exactly. Mhmm. Yeah.

So But, yeah, I think it's interesting. Like, this one line, you might have found it, where, you know, John is taking the Greek version of the afterlife and the Jewish version of the afterlife

Mhmm.

And in throwing them into a lake of fire, you you know, Ipi is saying, like, we don't need them anymore. That is how we are, you know, coming out the other end and saying, like, okay. This is all hell now. It's all together. Right.

Mismatched together. Yeah.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Oh, that's oh, that is so fascinating because like what he's what he's trying to say, if I'm if I'm understanding this correctly, like god basically took like yeah. Like like every culture's idea of the land of the dead.

Mhmm. Right? So it's almost it's almost like people from it's it's almost like Don is saying, oh, you know, what about shale? Yeah. No.

No. No. Crumple that up and toss that in the bin. It's like, oh, what about what about Hades? Oh, no.

Crumple that up and toss it in the bin. Right?

Right.

What about the bin? Well, the bin the bin is is not. And this is Jesus. He he puts his you know, he does the face palm. He's like, no.

No. Just forget about like, the bin is a metaphor. It's not there. It's it's gone. Burn it up.

Alright. So it's fiery. No. No. It's gone.

Yeah.

And I don't know. Using I don't know how familiar he would have been with the Egyptian religion, but there's a lake of fire there as well. But it's not one that you stay in, it's one you pass through.

Yes.

So I don't know if he's using that terminology. Wasn't able to find that link anywhere. Like, if if that's the idea, like, we'd be instead of going into the Lake Of Fire, we're passing it through the Lake Of Fire, and on the other end, in our version, there is nothing.

Yeah. Yeah. Because it because everything is all burned up.

Yeah. Not even for the birds to

eat. Exactly. Mhmm. Right? Because that that part is is done as well.

That's like Right. Yeah. I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to find it before our next episode. Mhmm. But there was this guy on TikTok talking about, I guess, the modern so this is this is not, you know, what the ancient Hebrews thought, but the modern Jewish idea of hell.

Mhmm. And and he uses the word hinom, and he talks about it as not eternal and also not a a punishment, but purification before you can get into heaven.

Mhmm.

So you have, like, he he what does he talk about? He he compares it to it's like it's like, oh, it's like you're it's like you're a coin or or a piece of of jewelry that's gotten a little bit tarnished or something like that, and you need to be purified. And, you know, like every little sin is like a little bit of, you know, a little bit of tarnish or a little bit of, you know, dirt or something like that. Right? And you have to, like, pass through the fire to get purified, and then and then you and then you're in heaven.

So it's not torture. It's more like a like a cleansing thing.

Yeah. I I I saw something similar that I I didn't quite understand, and maybe maybe now based on what you've said Mhmm. This might this might help here. So this is about this lake of fire symbolism. The Greek words for torment or tormented Mhmm.

Are something like I I can't read Greek. Who knows? But anyways, anyways, that that's been translated from Greek into torment or or torment in relation to this lake of fire. But originally, the Greek meaning is approving actual gold and silver coins. So actually testing real silver coins and to see like have you has it has it survived our our tests to see if it's if it's gonna, you know, be a true coin or not.

So like a crucible situation where you're kind of Mhmm. Like like like burning all of the impurities out of it?

Yeah. Yeah. By actually, like, putting it onto a stone and then testing it, and that that's where our ideas of or our words rather torment and and tormentor come from. Oh.

Okay. Mhmm. Okay. So so see, the more we look into this, like, every angle you look at it from, the whole idea of, like, punishment for punishment's sake forever and ever, like, just like torture, is not in it. Mhmm.

It's it's it's either it's either, you know, this is the place it it's either we're throwing Hades away because we don't need it because people don't have to die anymore, or people are consigned to oblivion, like like just poofed on, or they're being thrown into a purifying fire

Mhmm.

Where in the bible and this is this is the place where people supposedly get the idea of hell from.

Right. And in our version of hell, you're not down there to prove yourself or to come out the other side as a new person. You're there to be, you know, to stay there Yeah. Forever and be a

Mhmm. So if if this is like ground zero for like like fire and brimstone, eternal punishment because you were bad. Mhmm. If if this book is is where people are extracting that from and interpreting that from, then it is objectively wrong. It it had like, it it had to have been modified by priests and and and theologians later on, but it's not here.

Mhmm. I like, I don't I don't that that just blows my mind. And we're not even talking about the the the metaphorical, like, empires rising and falling and and, you know, the concept of evil being defeated, you know, hell being thrown into hell. Like, like, we're just talking about, like, the like, if we're gonna take this a 100% literally and and and there's gonna be a lake of fire, it's still not the hell that we're thinking of.

Right. Mhmm.

That's I don't know. Am I supposed to feel good about that? Like I

Or did we crack it? It it was all worth it?

I I you know what? I I think it's I think it's in the journey, Keenan. Maybe maybe hell is the friends we made along the way. Alright. Alright.

All that was nice and fun, but what does this mean for us? I think this chapter is John's way of saying, yes, evil is persistent. Right? It's gonna get out again. Right?

Yes. Empire keeps coming back. Yes. We're gonna defeat one beast and then another one is gonna rise. We're we're gonna think we've won and then Satan gets released and we're we're back in it again.

But the final victory is assured. Satan will be defeated. And again, remember, Satan just means, you know, adversary, enemy.

Adversity.

Yeah. Adversity. Yeah. Right? So so empire will fall.

Death itself will be destroyed. Right? And in the meantime, we're called to be faithful, to refuse the mark of the beast, to not worship the empire, to keep witnessing even when it costs us everything because the martyrs reign with Christ. The faithful are in the book of life, and the second death has no power over them. And folks, I, you know, I think about this right now in 2026 watching, you know, what's happening with ICE, with with the detention centers, with the families being destroyed, and it feels like we're in one of those cycles.

We we defeat one manifestation of evil and another one rises. Right? Every every day, I look at the news and I'm like, oh, okay. Here's here's here's the new beast. Here's the new, you know, dragon.

Here's the next here's the here's the the the seventh head. Right? Mhmm. And the tenth horn. Right?

We think we think, you know, we're making yeah. But then but then I see good news. It's like, oh, you know, this is impeachment or, oh, you know, look what the Supreme Court did. Look what the Pope said. Look what you know?

And I'm like, maybe this will be the thing, you know, and stop. He's got a he's he's got a a bruise on his hand. What does that mean? Mhmm. But then, you know, then the next day something bad happens.

Right? So, you know, we think we're making progress and then, you know, we slide backwards. But John's message is don't give up. Don't lose hope. Don't start worshiping the beast just because it looks like the beast is winning.

Right? The thousand year reign isn't some, you know, far off future event. It's it's the reality that that Christ is already reigning, that the martyrs are already vindicated, that death and empire don't have the final word. And yeah, Satan gets released. Yes.

Evil keeps coming back, but every time, it's defeated. Every time fire comes down from heaven. Every time the lake of fire gets fuller. First the beast, then the false prophet, then Satan himself, and then death and hell. Evil is being systematically destroyed.

It might not feel like it. It might feel like we're losing, but the trajectory is clear. And a final judgment, folks, I think that's a word of hope too because we're judged according to our works, according to how we lived, according to whether we stayed faithful, whether we refused to participate in empire's violence, whether we we kept our humanity when the beast demanded that we surrender it. Did we did we visit the imprisoned? Did we welcome the stranger?

Did we feed the hungry? Did we refuse to take the mark? That's what matters. That's what gets written in those books. That's what determines whose name is in the book of life.

So so yeah. So, you know, keep doing the work, keep resisting, keep refusing, keep being faithful, whatever religion you are, or or if you have no religion. Right? Because I I honestly don't think this is about religion. But I do think Satan is already defeated.

The lake of fire is already prepared. Death is already doomed. We we just gotta hold on until the end. And folks, the end is assured. But on that note, what did we think of of this chapter?

You know, I we'll we'll have to come back to some ideas to some other point. I mean, we this is one chapter in one book. There's 15 verses, and

Mhmm. You know,

so much of Christian denominations have split over this, and I'm not really sure that I understand those parts it. The Mhmm. Yeah, like everyone's interpretations. But, yeah, doing a close reading of these last few chapters particularly has been important, think, of seeing where we get our ideas of hell, the Devil. Mhmm.

It's it's Where he

is now? What what's going on? Yeah.

Yeah. Where are they now? Well, I've opened a fast food chain down in the house. It's called it's called Gog Magog.

Gog Magog's chicken.

Want that with the with the seven heads and 10 horns or

I like a 20 piece chicken McGogies.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Every time somebody orders that, we gotta ring the bell.

That's hell. That's hell.

Yeah. No. I like, it's it's uplifting. It's fascinating, and it's also maddening how like, we're reading this now. We're we're like you said, we're we're closely reading this, and it doesn't seem to be about the hell, you know, that we've come to, like, know and fear and and threaten people with and and and, you know, wish people went to and and, you know, all these all these depictions.

Like, the fear of hell and the and the the idea of the devil and and what he can do to you and and and, like, what's gonna happen to you down in hell has shaped so much of Christian like, I'll say human culture.

Yes. Mhmm.

Because of the way, you know, Christianity has has, like, violently kind of, like, insinuated itself all over the place. Mhmm. Like like, people have turned away from religion because of this possibly incorrect idea about hell. Mhmm. Because because they they just couldn't accept it because it is unacceptable.

It's it's, oh, wait. You know, God loves me and and more than more more than anything, more than more than I can understand, but he will throw me into a, you know, a fiery pit and torture me forever if I eat meat on Friday or whatever.

Mhmm. Right.

And then and then they leave the religion not even knowing or, I guess, caring at that point that, like, that was a a misinterpretation of this whole thing. Mhmm. I don't know. Like, leave it to humans to to, you know, to to to wreck a holy message, you know, throughout the centuries. Right?

Mhmm. Yeah. But yeah. I want like like, there's there's gotta be, like like, a least corrupted religion in the world. You know what I mean?

Like, a religion that has had the least amount of, like, hands on it. You know? The least amount of, like, like, chefs in the kitchen. You know what I mean?

Well, then that you know, the the newest world religion, the kingdom. So BSC. Oh, yeah.

But is that is that, like, based off of something pre is it built upon something else?

Oh, I think just tangentially I think it's it's quite different as far as I understand it from Okay. Islam, but yeah.

Okay. Interesting. Okay. Well, we'll have to take a look at that at some point. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That's only let's see here. It's only 500 years old.

Oh, jeez. That's a

So there you go. That's a baby.

It's hanging out at the the religion convention, and it's just like all the other religions is like, look at this look at this this what do they call it? Greenhorn? Is that Yeah. For a

young Yeah. Whippersnappers.

This new this this when I was back in my day, sinners were were were were punished with with with fire and brimstone, and we liked it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Might have to take a look at that one.

Sure. Yeah. But, yeah, I'm I'm excited because we're getting to the end here, folks. Mhmm. And I've already got our next season planned out.

We're gonna be looking at Mark Twain and his his relationship with Satan, which is refreshing and new and interesting and different.

And Funnier than what we've

got today. A lot funnier. Yeah. Which which scares me actually because, like, how can we make jokes on top of jokes? Like

Mhmm. Oh, just make fun of his mustache.

But there we go. That's it. Yeah. My favorite joke of of Ian's, he's like, you know what Mark Twain said? I'm Mark Twain.

I he's probably not wrong.

Probably.

Yeah. He's probably said that at one point. It'll be I'm Sam Clemons. Who? Mark Dwayne.

Oh. Oh. But, no, I'm excited. We're gonna get this is it, folks. It's the last two chapters next week and the week after.

Mhmm. And then and then, yeah, again, probably another short break as we read oh, what what is it gonna be? It's gonna be the mysterious stranger

Mhmm.

By Mark Twain. But I can't decide whether or not, Keenan, I want you to see the little film based on this first or not. Because it's not even it's not even an entire film. It's like a little scene from a claymation thing.

And I think Yeah. I should see that that Avengers of Mark Twain. Yeah.

Do you know the clip I'm talking about?

Nope. Not this one.

Oh, good. Okay. I think I think for I I because we were debating about this before. It's like, oh, what do you consume first? Right?

The movie or the book Mhmm. Or the, like, the thing, like, chronologically or or whatever. I think it would serve us best if you saw that little clip first

Okay.

And then we read the book. Mhmm. Because I think if you did it if we did it in the other order, it would like, it it's so different. You'd be like, hey. This isn't like the book at all.

Mhmm. But I think I think, yeah, you gotta appreciate just the that little clip. We won't even watch, like, like, full thing, just that little clip. And then maybe, like, as a bonus, we'll watch the the whole thing.

Yeah. Alright. I'm I'm looking forward to some batshit crazy stuff.

Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. But, yeah, that's that's for our next season, folks.

I can't wait. But for now, this has been another episode of the Devil's Details. I've been Lester Ryan Clark. You can summon me on all the socials as Lester Ryan Clark.

And I've been Keenan Diaz, and you can invoke me on Letterboxd and Instagram as Howdy Keenan.

Yeah. Find more of our shows and other really cool podcasts at truestory.fm, or you can drop us a message at banana for scale mail. That's mail@Gmail.com. We got our Facebook listener group, banana for scale. That's community for all of our shows, including this one.

It's a private group, but just request to join, and we'll let you into the infernal family. If you want more, consider joining us at truestory.fm/join, and look for banana for scale. That's us. You get bonus episodes of all our shows, access to our Discord, and you get your episodes a week early and ad free. Pretty cool.

Just $5. Wouldst thou like to live deliciously? We're not even asking for your souls. Just give us a five pentagram rating on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to our show. That and sharing the show by word-of-mouth or on social media is gonna help our little podcast grow and find more cool people like you.

Alright, folks. Until next week. Love and hisses.