WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.199 Raphaël: Hey folks and welcome to this latest episode of 00:00:03.209 --> 00:00:05.060 the Sustainable Tech Podcast. 00:00:05.070 --> 00:00:08.889 I'm your host Raph and today we are talking to Dr. 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:11.519 Marshall Cox, founder of Kelvin. 00:00:11.819 --> 00:00:16.659 We'll talk about the challenges of energy consumption in urban areas 00:00:16.689 --> 00:00:21.379 And the role of smart technologies in building an energy efficient future. 00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:25.466 I learned a ton from Marshall about the science behind this stuff, the 00:00:25.466 --> 00:00:27.676 technology, and about entrepreneurship. 00:00:27.746 --> 00:00:30.416 I hope you enjoyed the discussion as much as I did. 00:00:30.616 --> 00:00:32.096 Hey, how's it going? 00:00:32.635 --> 00:00:33.315 Marshall: Good, how are you? 00:00:33.606 --> 00:00:34.216 Raphaël: Good. 00:00:34.286 --> 00:00:38.036 So I'm just going to dive right into this and I would love 00:00:38.036 --> 00:00:40.196 to know about your journey. 00:00:40.196 --> 00:00:42.496 what led you to start Kelvin? 00:00:42.556 --> 00:00:45.646 What led you to hop into entrepreneurship? 00:00:45.676 --> 00:00:47.416 How did this all come about? 00:00:47.716 --> 00:00:51.046 Marshall: Yeah God, it's kind of like a, it's not a long story, 00:00:51.046 --> 00:00:52.276 but it kind of seems like it is. 00:00:52.676 --> 00:00:55.706 So I got, my research and experience , in undergrad and grad 00:00:55.706 --> 00:00:57.406 school is in material science. 00:00:57.706 --> 00:01:00.086 With a focus on organic electronics. 00:01:00.166 --> 00:01:01.606 So you've heard of OLEDs, 00:01:01.666 --> 00:01:02.226 I assume. 00:01:02.736 --> 00:01:05.486 So a lot of materials, a lot of research in organic light emitting 00:01:05.486 --> 00:01:07.466 diodes and organic solar cells. 00:01:07.796 --> 00:01:12.706 My first entrepreneurial experience was at a company called QD Vision. 00:01:12.766 --> 00:01:14.596 So QD Vision stands for Quantum Dot Vision. 00:01:14.926 --> 00:01:17.506 And if you're familiar with the Samsung QLED TVs, 00:01:17.717 --> 00:01:18.677 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:01:19.127 --> 00:01:19.647 Yeah. 00:01:19.926 --> 00:01:22.336 Marshall: acquired QD Vision and that is the basis for that technology. 00:01:22.656 --> 00:01:26.346 I made no money in that transaction, but my expertise is in low 00:01:26.346 --> 00:01:29.276 dimensional materials, quantum dots for display applications. 00:01:29.276 --> 00:01:29.356 So 00:01:29.376 --> 00:01:31.546 very ridiculous, and niche. 00:01:31.936 --> 00:01:34.746 The person who hired me at that company, went to become a professor at Columbia 00:01:34.806 --> 00:01:38.271 and I loved him, and so I just followed him and I went to get my PhD with him. 00:01:38.741 --> 00:01:42.011 And in that lab, which is called the Columbia Laboratory for 00:01:42.011 --> 00:01:43.361 Unconventional Electronics, which 00:01:43.361 --> 00:01:46.081 is an awesome name there was a heavy emphasis on entrepreneurship. 00:01:46.291 --> 00:01:47.791 And so we do a lot of cool stuff. 00:01:47.791 --> 00:01:51.441 There was a lot of different projects and there was a lot of patent applications. 00:01:51.861 --> 00:01:55.681 One of the things I stumbled onto was my own heating in my apartment. 00:01:56.261 --> 00:01:57.411 So I live in this kind of shithole. 00:01:57.661 --> 00:01:59.821 It was a nice apartment, but it was like a studio. 00:01:59.821 --> 00:02:00.581 It was really overheated. 00:02:00.581 --> 00:02:02.231 It was a steam heated, radiated, heated building. 00:02:02.661 --> 00:02:07.161 The real reason why I began looking into this is because my twin brother, 00:02:07.701 --> 00:02:09.801 who's a professional ballet dancer. 00:02:10.101 --> 00:02:13.571 Got a job on Broadway, like a really good job Broadway, and he didn't know, it was 00:02:13.571 --> 00:02:15.791 a new show and he didn't know how long this was going to last, and so he slept 00:02:15.791 --> 00:02:21.811 on my floor and complained incessantly about the hot, cold, hot, cold, hot, cold, 00:02:21.851 --> 00:02:25.331 like he just wouldn't stop, and so, I built the first version of what 00:02:25.331 --> 00:02:29.231 is now called the Cozy as a means of controlling temperature in the apartment. 00:02:29.231 --> 00:02:29.891 And it worked really well. 00:02:30.471 --> 00:02:31.801 And that was the origin of that. 00:02:31.801 --> 00:02:35.341 But I'd say my entrepreneurial journey started earlier, just being exposed to 00:02:35.341 --> 00:02:37.521 it early as a non founding employee. 00:02:38.051 --> 00:02:42.231 And then kind of liking that being interested in doing that again and 00:02:42.641 --> 00:02:43.501 looking for opportunities to do it. 00:02:43.802 --> 00:02:44.282 Raphaël: Cool. 00:02:44.382 --> 00:02:48.132 How does the stuff that you learned about in the display space, 00:02:48.132 --> 00:02:51.152 translate into heating and cooling, 00:02:51.252 --> 00:02:52.482 Marshall: It doesn't except that. 00:02:52.782 --> 00:02:54.882 when people learn you have a PhD, they're like, oh, you must be smart. 00:02:54.882 --> 00:02:56.882 It's like, no, there are a lot of dumb people who have PhDs. 00:02:57.282 --> 00:03:01.652 and people, I think, I'm not going to say naively, but often it's considered 00:03:01.662 --> 00:03:05.072 that what you learn in your PhD or in school, you apply in the real world. 00:03:05.102 --> 00:03:06.362 And that's obviously not true, right? 00:03:06.362 --> 00:03:08.932 almost nothing of what you learn in school, PhD included, is 00:03:08.932 --> 00:03:10.322 used in your day to day life. 00:03:10.732 --> 00:03:14.262 in that context, what I learned at QDVision doesn't need to be applied, 00:03:14.312 --> 00:03:18.832 What I was doing at QDVision was trying to figure out a product something 00:03:18.832 --> 00:03:24.242 that worked and establishing a process for testing that hypothesizing and 00:03:24.492 --> 00:03:25.752 building stuff that functioned. 00:03:26.032 --> 00:03:28.652 I think that is what has been applied universally in what I do. 00:03:28.993 --> 00:03:29.523 Raphaël: Cool. 00:03:29.933 --> 00:03:34.353 And when you decided to start a company around this, so you go from like building 00:03:34.353 --> 00:03:39.023 a prototype because your brother is complaining about the heating what then 00:03:39.043 --> 00:03:41.883 turns that into an actual company for you? 00:03:42.183 --> 00:03:45.433 Marshall: that's the step that I think most people take because they 00:03:45.443 --> 00:03:46.553 don't have experience doing it. 00:03:46.553 --> 00:03:50.603 But it was very easy for me in my position in that lab to apply for a patent. 00:03:50.783 --> 00:03:53.293 my perspective then was I could apply for this on my own because the school 00:03:53.293 --> 00:03:54.863 didn't really contribute to that. 00:03:55.163 --> 00:03:57.933 I applied through the school because I wanted to use the school 00:03:57.933 --> 00:03:59.773 as a testbed for the technology. 00:03:59.853 --> 00:04:03.383 so I basically gave them a large ownership of the IP. 00:04:03.843 --> 00:04:06.493 I licensed it back and then I was like, hey, Columbia, you want to 00:04:06.493 --> 00:04:07.393 test this out in your facilities? 00:04:07.413 --> 00:04:08.293 And they were like, yeah, let's do that. 00:04:08.593 --> 00:04:12.763 And then from that small step, I'd say the big step after that 00:04:12.763 --> 00:04:16.763 was we competed in a bunch of clean tech, business competitions, 00:04:17.083 --> 00:04:19.913 and we won a few of them and one very big one. 00:04:19.983 --> 00:04:24.673 And that really launched the company in this most, official sense. 00:04:24.884 --> 00:04:28.004 Raphaël: what was the most surprising thing to you leaning 00:04:28.004 --> 00:04:31.744 into this entrepreneurial stuff you have support, but there's always 00:04:31.754 --> 00:04:33.714 stuff that you just don't expect. 00:04:33.804 --> 00:04:34.064 Right. 00:04:34.074 --> 00:04:35.764 So what was the, 00:04:35.918 --> 00:04:36.488 Marshall: Yeah, totally. 00:04:36.538 --> 00:04:37.208 I could sum it up. 00:04:37.808 --> 00:04:42.738 It's something that one of my first big investors refers to as schlep blindness, 00:04:43.268 --> 00:04:45.588 which is that first time founders 00:04:45.699 --> 00:04:46.189 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:04:46.489 --> 00:04:50.049 Marshall: entirely blind to the schlep that they're embarking on. 00:04:50.589 --> 00:04:52.579 I had no idea what I was getting myself into. 00:04:52.629 --> 00:04:54.739 to go into more detail on what that was, was essentially, you 00:04:54.739 --> 00:04:55.749 know, I had this radiator cover. 00:04:55.749 --> 00:04:57.409 It's not, Rocket science. 00:04:57.919 --> 00:04:59.819 it's pretty simple to build. 00:05:00.109 --> 00:05:01.989 It's simple to sell ish. 00:05:02.359 --> 00:05:05.619 But the process to get it certified as an energy efficiency technology 00:05:05.789 --> 00:05:07.009 was outrageous. 00:05:07.309 --> 00:05:09.729 we got funding from NYSERDA, which is the New York State Energy Research 00:05:09.729 --> 00:05:13.689 Development Authority, It took eight years to get the technology into what's 00:05:13.689 --> 00:05:16.489 called the technical resource manual, where you have to be to get incentives. 00:05:16.779 --> 00:05:18.149 And that is an outrageous amount of 00:05:18.159 --> 00:05:18.489 time. 00:05:18.689 --> 00:05:20.209 Like that's longer than most startups 00:05:20.409 --> 00:05:21.149 Raphaël: Last. 00:05:21.318 --> 00:05:22.218 Marshall: or even sell. 00:05:22.278 --> 00:05:24.888 That was the biggest surprise, and it continued to be a very big 00:05:24.888 --> 00:05:25.738 surprise for a very long time. 00:05:25.998 --> 00:05:30.008 And to add insult to injury, we were entered into the New York State Technical 00:05:30.008 --> 00:05:32.738 Resource Manual in December of 2019. 00:05:33.178 --> 00:05:34.908 So we were like, all right, we finally 00:05:35.019 --> 00:05:36.189 Raphaël: Ready to go. 00:05:36.738 --> 00:05:38.098 Marshall: guess what wasn't happening anymore? 00:05:38.128 --> 00:05:39.518 Any access to any apartments. 00:05:39.578 --> 00:05:41.098 It took a while for us to get beyond that. 00:05:41.424 --> 00:05:43.734 Raphaël: I've heard a couple interesting stories about 00:05:43.764 --> 00:05:45.764 navigating lockdowns recently. 00:05:45.764 --> 00:05:47.354 I'm curious, what happened for you? 00:05:47.374 --> 00:05:49.134 Did you just have to put everything on hold? 00:05:49.134 --> 00:05:51.594 Did you have the resources to just carry on 00:05:51.594 --> 00:05:52.854 Marshall: we weren't allowed to do any in unit work. 00:05:52.854 --> 00:05:53.524 We did what we could. 00:05:53.534 --> 00:05:55.304 We spent a lot of time thinking about what we were doing. 00:05:55.304 --> 00:05:57.154 We actually developed a new product during that time. 00:05:57.204 --> 00:05:59.834 the PPP loans are what got us through we had one big 00:05:59.844 --> 00:06:01.314 contract that was Put on pause. 00:06:01.324 --> 00:06:05.464 once things relaxed and we developed a personal protective equipment 00:06:05.864 --> 00:06:07.204 strategy, start making revenue again. 00:06:07.204 --> 00:06:07.884 that was really painful. 00:06:08.190 --> 00:06:12.760 Raphaël: I'm curious, do you think there's anything, I mean, there's something 00:06:12.760 --> 00:06:17.410 unique to, your situation in terms of the background, you had the context in 00:06:17.410 --> 00:06:22.780 the lab do you think there's anything to the sort of ecosystem in New York 00:06:22.840 --> 00:06:27.400 that in particular is helpful to the kind of thing that you were doing or. 00:06:27.700 --> 00:06:30.040 Marshall: People consider us like the OG hardware company 00:06:30.080 --> 00:06:31.170 because we've been around for so long. 00:06:31.220 --> 00:06:33.640 much fewer resources for startups than there are today. 00:06:33.830 --> 00:06:35.800 there's all kinds of accelerators today and it's great. 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:39.830 we benefited from that somewhat, but we were like the first ones. 00:06:39.910 --> 00:06:41.360 they were still building the programs, et cetera. 00:06:41.700 --> 00:06:42.660 our market's New York. 00:06:42.710 --> 00:06:44.080 it's every bigger, older city, but, 00:06:44.140 --> 00:06:45.990 New York City is the steam capital of the world. 00:06:46.470 --> 00:06:49.690 So, all the customers we could ever need are here. 00:06:49.970 --> 00:06:52.150 And it's just a great place for us to be in a location where most of 00:06:52.150 --> 00:06:53.580 your early customers are, so you can 00:06:53.616 --> 00:06:53.636 Raphaël: Of 00:06:53.636 --> 00:06:54.116 course. 00:06:54.416 --> 00:06:56.586 Marshall: Yeah, I mean, outside of that, the finance industry 00:06:56.586 --> 00:06:57.816 here is really helpful because, 00:06:57.886 --> 00:07:00.026 That's been one of the biggest unlocks for us, honestly, in terms 00:07:00.026 --> 00:07:01.566 of sales is financing the product. 00:07:01.996 --> 00:07:04.166 New York City is a great place to have a startup except that 00:07:04.186 --> 00:07:05.516 the labor is really expensive 00:07:05.956 --> 00:07:07.026 and the space is really expensive. 00:07:07.246 --> 00:07:10.556 So if the pros can outweigh the cons, then it's great. 00:07:10.707 --> 00:07:14.227 Raphaël: Are you currently working in other markets 00:07:14.247 --> 00:07:17.017 Marshall: we have deployments all over the Eastern seaboard, but I'd say 98 00:07:17.327 --> 00:07:18.387 percent of them are in New York City. 00:07:18.827 --> 00:07:22.357 We're raising another round, and that round is predicated on, you 00:07:22.357 --> 00:07:25.197 know, we've established our growth in New York City, and now we want 00:07:25.197 --> 00:07:26.757 to replicate that in other regions. 00:07:26.767 --> 00:07:30.307 there are many that make really good sense for us right now, and we want 00:07:30.307 --> 00:07:31.967 to hire teams that focus on them. 00:07:32.208 --> 00:07:36.058 Raphaël: I'm curious, in the sort of hardware and sustainability, like 00:07:36.058 --> 00:07:38.548 the intersection of hardware and sustainability, I think there's a lot 00:07:38.548 --> 00:07:40.078 of interesting stuff happening there. 00:07:40.418 --> 00:07:40.718 Marshall: argue it's 00:07:40.718 --> 00:07:41.648 where everything is happening, 00:07:41.719 --> 00:07:42.219 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:07:42.739 --> 00:07:45.019 Marshall: Well, you know, people have very different takes on 00:07:45.019 --> 00:07:46.739 this, but sorry to hijack your 00:07:46.895 --> 00:07:47.685 Raphaël: no, go for it. 00:07:47.985 --> 00:07:50.815 Marshall: the era where a piece of software is going to make a huge 00:07:50.815 --> 00:07:54.755 difference in efficiency is kind of over, the things that need to 00:07:54.755 --> 00:07:58.905 be harnessed and reined in are not controllable via software. 00:07:59.300 --> 00:08:03.980 And so I think that to really make the next step in sustainability for a 00:08:03.980 --> 00:08:06.460 number of different things, you really have to have the hardware to do it. 00:08:06.760 --> 00:08:07.150 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:08:07.280 --> 00:08:08.420 That makes a lot of sense. 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:14.130 I feel like I've seen over the past, five plus years, a lot more emphasis 00:08:14.130 --> 00:08:16.570 being put in hardware, both at the. 00:08:16.890 --> 00:08:18.410 consumer ish level. 00:08:18.710 --> 00:08:21.940 I say consumer, like you're not consumer, you're selling to buildings, right? 00:08:21.940 --> 00:08:22.980 If I understand correctly. 00:08:23.260 --> 00:08:25.510 But it's still dealing with people's lives. 00:08:25.540 --> 00:08:29.690 I'm seeing now a lot more stuff in mining and industrial sectors. 00:08:30.109 --> 00:08:32.279 Marshall: yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff going on these days 00:08:32.309 --> 00:08:35.889 really interesting ways to tackle problems, and it's all, you know, I 00:08:35.889 --> 00:08:38.089 guess, I'm going to step, walk back a little bit on the hardware thing. 00:08:38.109 --> 00:08:41.399 I think that you have to have physical stuff to do things physically, 00:08:41.739 --> 00:08:42.029 right? 00:08:42.029 --> 00:08:44.719 there's a lot of cool stuff on, like, using you know, like growing 00:08:44.719 --> 00:08:47.739 plants in a field and then burning it to extract metals that the, that 00:08:47.739 --> 00:08:48.809 the plants are designed to extract. 00:08:49.029 --> 00:08:49.959 just cool stuff like that. 00:08:49.999 --> 00:08:53.349 there's a lot of awesome things going on in the industrial world, effluent 00:08:53.549 --> 00:08:55.699 management a lot of cool stuff on mining. 00:08:56.059 --> 00:08:56.479 Agreed. 00:08:56.700 --> 00:08:57.100 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:08:57.110 --> 00:09:00.480 So with that context, I'm kind of curious, you mentioned 00:09:00.490 --> 00:09:01.800 you're raising another round. 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:04.420 what does that ecosystem look like for you right now? 00:09:04.450 --> 00:09:08.720 we've had some ups and downs lately, generally in like venture capital and 00:09:08.740 --> 00:09:13.363 in the tech and startup ecosystems uh, generally, like more broadly. 00:09:13.653 --> 00:09:16.853 I feel like I'm seeing here in British Columbia and in Canada. 00:09:17.438 --> 00:09:20.748 A lot more emphasis being put on cleantech investments. 00:09:21.212 --> 00:09:22.312 Marshall: Yeah, It's been up and down. 00:09:22.682 --> 00:09:25.322 You know, there's like the big cleantech crunch was that 00:09:25.622 --> 00:09:26.672 2010 ish or whatever it was. 00:09:26.752 --> 00:09:28.352 And we founded on the back end of that. 00:09:28.362 --> 00:09:30.512 It wasn't a great time to be raising money in cleantech. 00:09:30.882 --> 00:09:31.962 And that was another weird time. 00:09:32.002 --> 00:09:35.652 I think, the golden days of cleantech investing were like 2022, 2021. 00:09:36.132 --> 00:09:37.452 And now it's getting a little weird. 00:09:37.822 --> 00:09:40.972 In the states, at least, because there's political question marks which 00:09:40.992 --> 00:09:43.212 mean maybe incentives question marks, 00:09:43.212 --> 00:09:44.242 I mean, there's still a deficit. 00:09:44.292 --> 00:09:45.802 on one hand, can you make a lot of money? 00:09:45.872 --> 00:09:47.552 some of the multiples in cleantech are not that great. 00:09:48.102 --> 00:09:50.942 And on the other hand, can we afford not to make these 00:09:50.942 --> 00:09:53.022 improvements, even if they're not the biggest money makers on earth. 00:09:53.072 --> 00:09:55.042 I think both those things are kind of fighting each other. 00:09:55.412 --> 00:09:57.222 We're in a position where our numbers are really good. 00:09:57.272 --> 00:09:58.562 we're in pretty good shape for funding. 00:09:58.882 --> 00:10:01.082 But that's not true of a lot of companies out there right now. 00:10:01.132 --> 00:10:04.192 it's a tough environment because everyone's trying to raise money 00:10:04.242 --> 00:10:05.522 Interest rates still aren't great 00:10:05.692 --> 00:10:07.022 and a lot of companies rely on that. 00:10:07.582 --> 00:10:10.912 I think more and more people are seeing cleantech as not only a place where you 00:10:10.912 --> 00:10:15.212 can make money, but where philanthropic dollars could be uniquely enabling too. 00:10:15.612 --> 00:10:18.252 It's just the people who work in cleantech are not necessarily 00:10:18.252 --> 00:10:19.942 working in cleantech because they want to make a lot of money, right? 00:10:19.942 --> 00:10:22.772 Like, a lot of people are, it's crazy how many people are moving 00:10:22.772 --> 00:10:25.692 into cleantech because they feel this, you know, maybe they've just 00:10:25.762 --> 00:10:26.542 had kids or something like that. 00:10:26.542 --> 00:10:28.062 Like, they have an existential dread 00:10:28.462 --> 00:10:30.772 of what could happen if these problems aren't solved, and 00:10:30.772 --> 00:10:32.202 that's certainly why I'm here. 00:10:32.612 --> 00:10:33.722 Yeah, it is interesting. 00:10:33.892 --> 00:10:37.562 And the fundraising market is always a up down question mark thing. 00:10:37.612 --> 00:10:38.482 I don't know what it's like in Canada. 00:10:38.532 --> 00:10:40.113 In the United States, it's a little rough right now. 00:10:40.324 --> 00:10:40.694 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:10:40.694 --> 00:10:45.304 I feel like, given that we're a small ecosystem placed next to a 00:10:45.304 --> 00:10:49.194 behemoth we kind of get dragged along, is what it feels like. 00:10:49.633 --> 00:10:50.673 Marshall: there's a lot of good companies in Canada, 00:10:50.673 --> 00:10:53.143 Raphaël: that in mind, I'm curious, you mentioned the motivations 00:10:53.143 --> 00:10:54.433 of people going into cleantech. 00:10:54.953 --> 00:10:59.233 how does that affect setting a vision, mission for your company, how do you 00:10:59.233 --> 00:11:04.693 hire, all of these operational things tie into, why people approach this sector. 00:11:05.088 --> 00:11:07.308 Marshall: Yeah as a startup, we have funding limitations. 00:11:07.308 --> 00:11:10.538 we're not going to be able to pay as much as Peloton, the pull of 00:11:10.738 --> 00:11:13.788 climate tech allows you to get better people than you otherwise would. 00:11:14.109 --> 00:11:14.589 Raphaël: yeah, 00:11:14.633 --> 00:11:16.753 Marshall: especially in New York City, where we're competing against, ad tech, 00:11:16.763 --> 00:11:19.793 where you're getting paid way more than we could ever pay you I think that's the 00:11:19.793 --> 00:11:23.163 biggest implication, of working in this, you get people who are really passionate 00:11:23.163 --> 00:11:26.893 about it don't necessarily need to make, a million dollars a year and are still 00:11:26.893 --> 00:11:28.023 going to put a lot of effort into it, 00:11:28.073 --> 00:11:31.123 people are driven in this market because it is so important. 00:11:31.469 --> 00:11:34.419 Raphaël: I think something like do well by doing 00:11:34.713 --> 00:11:35.183 Marshall: Yeah. 00:11:35.239 --> 00:11:36.278 Raphaël: yeah, I totally get it. 00:11:36.692 --> 00:11:39.432 Marshall: Usually co opted by industries that are just 00:11:39.552 --> 00:11:40.472 greenwashing what they're doing 00:11:40.472 --> 00:11:43.042 Raphaël: can you speak to that, because you're probably competing with a lot of 00:11:43.052 --> 00:11:46.662 people who are doing greenwashing, who are saying that they'll provide some solution 00:11:46.672 --> 00:11:49.352 that competes with you, but isn't actually 00:11:49.646 --> 00:11:51.667 Marshall: I mean, Yeah, there are a few peppies that I have. 00:11:51.807 --> 00:11:52.147 I'll share 00:11:52.147 --> 00:11:55.077 one without saying anything bad about the carbon credit market, 00:11:55.547 --> 00:11:55.817 right? 00:11:55.847 --> 00:11:57.407 That's made a lot of companies. 00:11:57.447 --> 00:11:59.397 And it's a, valuable market. 00:11:59.797 --> 00:12:06.057 We don't do anything in it because If you entomb carbon for, a thousand years 00:12:06.057 --> 00:12:09.787 or 10,000 years, whatever it is you get paid $50 for that ton of carbon entombed. 00:12:10.087 --> 00:12:16.187 If you avoid the burning and creation of a ton of carbon, you get $7. 00:12:16.637 --> 00:12:18.347 So like the market is like. 00:12:18.647 --> 00:12:19.807 Is really bizarre. 00:12:19.807 --> 00:12:23.017 And, and the thing I want to point out in the market, which is ridiculous 00:12:23.467 --> 00:12:27.677 is how not cutting down a forest has kind of overtaken the entire market. 00:12:28.097 --> 00:12:30.007 And if you tell them you're not going to cut down your backyard, 00:12:30.017 --> 00:12:30.987 you can get a lot of money for it. 00:12:30.997 --> 00:12:33.997 there's been a lot of research recently showing that is, Horrible. 00:12:34.027 --> 00:12:34.927 it doesn't work at all. 00:12:34.927 --> 00:12:36.567 And there's enormous amounts of fraud. 00:12:36.767 --> 00:12:39.327 that whole market is, is kind of messed up because of an 00:12:39.637 --> 00:12:40.647 aspect of greenwashing, right? 00:12:40.647 --> 00:12:43.647 Like, Oh, I'm not going to cut down this thousand acres. 00:12:43.677 --> 00:12:47.567 And you're going to pay me money and then it's going to suddenly create this huge 00:12:47.567 --> 00:12:50.007 benefit on a climate sense and it doesn't. 00:12:50.523 --> 00:12:53.663 Raphaël: I'm kind of curious, actually I realize we haven't really 00:12:53.663 --> 00:12:57.643 talked much about the product, tell me more about the actual product. 00:12:57.653 --> 00:13:02.293 you mentioned the story that started it all, so I think we have a sense of it. 00:13:02.838 --> 00:13:06.358 I've looked around your website and checked it all out, but yeah, 00:13:06.718 --> 00:13:06.828 tell 00:13:06.897 --> 00:13:07.157 Marshall: Yeah. 00:13:07.177 --> 00:13:10.297 So we have one product that is the basis of all our growth And then 00:13:10.337 --> 00:13:11.597 a third that's kind of feature 00:13:12.167 --> 00:13:14.677 and try to figure out the best way to introduce it. 00:13:14.677 --> 00:13:17.107 So we started out with this cozy, 00:13:17.157 --> 00:13:18.517 It's an efficiency product for rare buildings. 00:13:18.527 --> 00:13:20.927 Let's get control of these systems because they're horribly wasteful. 00:13:20.927 --> 00:13:23.867 It's one of the most inefficient building stocks in the world. 00:13:24.367 --> 00:13:27.537 it works by, stopping heat from transferring into a room when it 00:13:27.647 --> 00:13:31.197 has enough heat, since the system is, pressurized steam if you're not 00:13:31.207 --> 00:13:36.002 condensing in one area, That steam remains pressurized to flow to a low pressure 00:13:36.002 --> 00:13:38.582 area, where steam is condensing, where heat is being transferred to a room. 00:13:38.582 --> 00:13:40.582 we're able to balance out the heat transfer in a building, 00:13:40.582 --> 00:13:42.716 which stays between 25 and 40%. 00:13:43.253 --> 00:13:43.633 Raphaël: Okay. 00:13:43.697 --> 00:13:46.327 Marshall: too many details about the physics the second product. 00:13:46.327 --> 00:13:48.527 And so that's what we should do with all our radiator heated buildings, right? 00:13:48.527 --> 00:13:50.417 There's two things you can do in a building with radiators, 00:13:50.417 --> 00:13:51.547 You can make it more efficient 00:13:51.847 --> 00:13:52.802 or you can electrify it. 00:13:52.802 --> 00:13:52.946 And 00:13:53.327 --> 00:13:57.527 it turns out that electrifying these buildings is outrageously hard. 00:13:57.737 --> 00:14:01.917 If you had to estimate how many buildings in New York City of the type we work 00:14:01.917 --> 00:14:04.497 with, like larger multifamily have electrified, what would you guess? 00:14:04.797 --> 00:14:06.087 Raphaël: I have no idea. 00:14:06.517 --> 00:14:08.247 Marshall: Two complexes. 00:14:08.597 --> 00:14:11.057 There's a few smaller buildings, on the order of 10 or 15 00:14:11.057 --> 00:14:11.997 apartments that I've electrified, 00:14:12.007 --> 00:14:14.127 but of the larger buildings, there's two, 00:14:14.213 --> 00:14:14.713 Raphaël: two. 00:14:15.013 --> 00:14:16.393 Marshall: And one is an NYU dorm 00:14:16.669 --> 00:14:17.159 Raphaël: Okay. 00:14:17.463 --> 00:14:20.193 Marshall: one was a NYCHA, New York City Housing Authority conversion. 00:14:20.203 --> 00:14:22.463 they're doing these conversions to make them privately owned by 00:14:22.463 --> 00:14:24.573 a corporation for like 99 years. 00:14:24.793 --> 00:14:26.933 in exchange the corporation has to put a lot of money into 00:14:26.933 --> 00:14:27.733 the building and upgrade it. 00:14:28.203 --> 00:14:29.963 both complexes started their work three years ago. 00:14:29.993 --> 00:14:30.603 They're both vacant. 00:14:30.974 --> 00:14:31.484 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:14:31.688 --> 00:14:32.748 Marshall: Still, because the work's still 00:14:32.748 --> 00:14:33.158 being done. 00:14:33.458 --> 00:14:37.238 So it's three years of vacancy and tens of millions of dollars to do it. 00:14:37.568 --> 00:14:40.808 the amount of work required and the cost to do it is just crazy. 00:14:41.278 --> 00:14:43.188 And no one's ever going to do it if they're not required. 00:14:43.348 --> 00:14:43.908 And why you can do it? 00:14:43.928 --> 00:14:44.858 Cause they have more money than anybody. 00:14:45.238 --> 00:14:48.968 And NYSHA no longer requires it for their contracts because it was so onerous. 00:14:49.438 --> 00:14:50.828 The barriers are vast. 00:14:51.054 --> 00:14:51.354 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:14:51.654 --> 00:14:53.004 Marshall: Finances is one part. 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:55.769 And that's a big one, but procedurally, it's a bigger one. 00:14:55.809 --> 00:14:57.159 buildings have heating plants. 00:14:57.189 --> 00:14:58.079 let's talk about America. 00:14:58.089 --> 00:14:59.109 Buildings have heating plants. 00:14:59.319 --> 00:15:00.419 You paid for your heating system. 00:15:00.859 --> 00:15:02.209 Are you gonna replace it before it dies? 00:15:02.609 --> 00:15:04.009 The answer is almost always no, 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:05.079 because nobody does that. 00:15:05.469 --> 00:15:06.429 So you wait until it dies. 00:15:06.469 --> 00:15:08.649 When do you think heating systems typically die? 00:15:08.999 --> 00:15:09.799 They break when used. 00:15:09.935 --> 00:15:10.185 Raphaël: Okay. 00:15:10.285 --> 00:15:10.725 Marshall: they break in 00:15:10.981 --> 00:15:11.721 Raphaël: When you need them. 00:15:12.165 --> 00:15:15.305 Marshall: it's an utter emergency, and 96 percent of all heating plant 00:15:15.305 --> 00:15:17.075 failures in the US are replaced with the exact same system. 00:15:17.075 --> 00:15:20.195 So you lock in another 20 or 30 years of natural gas consumption. 00:15:20.655 --> 00:15:21.625 And this is what happens everywhere. 00:15:21.625 --> 00:15:23.475 if you think, like, that's the US number. 00:15:23.525 --> 00:15:27.035 Multifamily, like you have 100 families now that are not heated in February? 00:15:27.085 --> 00:15:29.355 there's no way they're going to consider a sustainable upgrade. 00:15:29.401 --> 00:15:30.031 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:15:30.331 --> 00:15:33.261 Marshall: Our pathway is let's get control of our systems. 00:15:33.261 --> 00:15:33.651 I mentioned 00:15:33.951 --> 00:15:35.631 product number two is called hybrid electrification. 00:15:36.161 --> 00:15:38.991 what we're doing with this product is deploying a commodity heat pump 00:15:39.511 --> 00:15:43.991 that works above freezing and you use the radiator system below freezing. 00:15:44.341 --> 00:15:45.261 So you can install it. 00:15:45.261 --> 00:15:48.550 Now we attached to this heat pump. 00:15:48.861 --> 00:15:53.441 A thermal battery system, so you can do demand response and in all the 00:15:53.441 --> 00:15:56.091 regions where you find these big steel and steam buildings, demand response 00:15:56.091 --> 00:16:00.201 and grid services are valuable because you have a stressed electricity grid. 00:16:00.581 --> 00:16:04.221 And so we can monetize the demand response for these systems and generate 00:16:04.231 --> 00:16:07.601 enough revenue to pay for the entire implementation of the technology. 00:16:07.601 --> 00:16:09.531 So we literally install it for free in buildings. 00:16:09.831 --> 00:16:12.411 Every day that's not peak air conditioning, we use that battery 00:16:12.411 --> 00:16:14.261 to do what's called peak shading. 00:16:14.561 --> 00:16:16.101 And so in these, this is getting really technical. 00:16:16.101 --> 00:16:16.781 I apologize. 00:16:17.051 --> 00:16:20.211 But in these big buildings, they're on a commercial rate typically and half 00:16:20.211 --> 00:16:24.701 their electricity charge more or less is how much is called the demand charge. 00:16:24.981 --> 00:16:28.001 what's their maximum draw during the month or day or whatever their rate is. 00:16:28.351 --> 00:16:34.121 we reduce that a ton because we shave all the, the conditioning consumption 00:16:34.121 --> 00:16:38.391 to an off peak time the end result is we monetize demand response to 00:16:38.391 --> 00:16:42.491 pay for implementation, and then we reduce their peak demand charge 00:16:42.771 --> 00:16:45.841 so much that heating costs less than natural gas heating. 00:16:46.162 --> 00:16:46.602 Raphaël: Okay. 00:16:46.902 --> 00:16:49.522 Marshall: And so it's free and it lowers their operating costs. 00:16:50.092 --> 00:16:52.962 And it turns out that 75 percent of heating is done 00:16:52.962 --> 00:16:54.182 above freezing temperatures. 00:16:54.642 --> 00:16:56.382 So we can decarbonize for 75 percent for free. 00:16:56.812 --> 00:16:57.301 So that's pretty much it. 00:16:57.532 --> 00:16:58.432 That's step two. 00:16:58.982 --> 00:17:03.002 And step two lines you up for step three, which is when the boiler dies, 00:17:03.252 --> 00:17:06.962 we're in the building with a plan to fully electrify, and we've already installed 00:17:06.962 --> 00:17:10.272 all these heat pumps and units designed to integrate into a full electrification 00:17:10.272 --> 00:17:13.622 solution, so the final step costs less than the boiler replacement. 00:17:14.042 --> 00:17:16.792 everything we're trying to do at Kelvin is to create a pathway 00:17:16.792 --> 00:17:20.182 towards full electrification that is driven financially. 00:17:20.482 --> 00:17:21.542 There's no emotion 00:17:22.093 --> 00:17:22.573 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:17:22.772 --> 00:17:26.652 Marshall: to be in this equation for it to move forward, because there is no emotion. 00:17:27.002 --> 00:17:29.652 I mean, there's people who run these buildings, but they're businesses. 00:17:29.692 --> 00:17:32.972 They're fiduciarily responsible to make money. 00:17:33.342 --> 00:17:35.642 And we just need to align that with decarbonization. 00:17:35.883 --> 00:17:36.903 Raphaël: That makes a lot of sense. 00:17:36.903 --> 00:17:39.273 If there's no reason for them not to do it. 00:17:39.373 --> 00:17:40.043 Why wouldn't they? 00:17:40.423 --> 00:17:40.823 Cool. 00:17:41.383 --> 00:17:42.853 No, that was really cool actually. 00:17:43.273 --> 00:17:46.863 And so long term, what's the pathway to getting all of this in 00:17:46.863 --> 00:17:48.423 every building around the world? 00:17:48.952 --> 00:17:51.162 Marshall: Yeah, I mean, we're deploying a lot of units this year. 00:17:51.232 --> 00:17:53.232 We're 10x ing our deployments. 00:17:53.812 --> 00:17:54.782 And that's the Cozy. 00:17:54.832 --> 00:17:58.462 We're releasing hyper electrification late next year, commercially, and 00:17:58.462 --> 00:18:01.382 that'll be a free upgrade to all existing, Cosy deployments, more or 00:18:01.382 --> 00:18:04.462 less, and then we'll start selling in multiple cities next year, and 00:18:04.512 --> 00:18:07.312 eventually we'll start, doing these free upgrades to hyper electrification, 00:18:07.362 --> 00:18:10.792 I think the market's gonna like a free thing that removes, liability. 00:18:11.182 --> 00:18:14.352 our job is literally to make it free and make buildings 00:18:14.352 --> 00:18:16.432 money as a course of business. 00:18:16.862 --> 00:18:19.782 And if we can do that, we can deploy it at scale. 00:18:19.933 --> 00:18:20.433 Raphaël: I love it. 00:18:20.473 --> 00:18:21.243 That's awesome. 00:18:21.413 --> 00:18:23.543 can I ask which markets you're moving into? 00:18:24.093 --> 00:18:28.233 Marshall: Where, urban areas have good energy efficiency incentives and 00:18:28.233 --> 00:18:30.653 have grid issues that will pay for it. 00:18:30.963 --> 00:18:33.593 And that's Chicago, Boston a lot of the Exelon territories 00:18:33.963 --> 00:18:35.083 you know, Baltimore, et cetera. 00:18:35.553 --> 00:18:38.833 And I think that list will expand because energy efficiency is 00:18:38.883 --> 00:18:39.713 going to become more important. 00:18:40.163 --> 00:18:43.493 grids are only going to get more stressed electrifying heating in the winter. 00:18:43.733 --> 00:18:45.343 And so those demand response revenues will start creeping up. 00:18:45.664 --> 00:18:48.814 Raphaël: out of curiosity you ever thought about Canada? 00:18:49.173 --> 00:18:50.343 Marshall: yeah, we're looking at Toronto already. 00:18:50.343 --> 00:18:52.293 I think we have a project that's, you know, we're scoping in Toronto. 00:18:52.393 --> 00:18:53.773 so that's one of the places we've been speaking to. 00:18:53.934 --> 00:18:54.054 Raphaël: How 00:18:54.054 --> 00:18:54.844 about Montreal? 00:18:55.144 --> 00:18:55.654 Marshall: Montreal as well. 00:18:55.654 --> 00:18:58.194 I spent a summer in Montreal, I went to McGill for summer school. 00:18:58.534 --> 00:18:59.044 It was awesome. 00:18:59.470 --> 00:19:01.790 Raphaël: I study at Concordia, and I feel like a lot of 00:19:01.800 --> 00:19:03.650 Montreal buildings could use your 00:19:03.929 --> 00:19:04.349 Marshall: Yeah. 00:19:04.669 --> 00:19:07.639 although I will say like, you know, it's a more aggressive cooling market, right? 00:19:07.679 --> 00:19:08.439 Or heating market, right? 00:19:08.439 --> 00:19:09.589 So it's, it's much colder there. 00:19:09.589 --> 00:19:10.029 And so, 00:19:10.329 --> 00:19:12.179 you know, depending on where you are on the earth, you're going 00:19:12.179 --> 00:19:13.469 to need more or less cooling. 00:19:13.469 --> 00:19:17.189 So you get farther south and we electrify more with this hybrid approach. 00:19:17.399 --> 00:19:18.519 further north, you electrify less. 00:19:18.869 --> 00:19:21.189 That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense at all. 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:24.609 It's just that you get less decarbonization over the course of 00:19:24.609 --> 00:19:26.399 a year, the further north you go. 00:19:26.699 --> 00:19:27.719 it all depends on the economics. 00:19:27.769 --> 00:19:31.249 it still sets you up for full electrification to a certain extent. 00:19:31.779 --> 00:19:34.679 But I see it being valuable everywhere. 00:19:34.979 --> 00:19:37.619 And then, if we're in Canada, we can always do a cold climate heat pump. 00:19:37.619 --> 00:19:39.579 It's not like a huge delta. 00:19:39.749 --> 00:19:43.037 But there is a technological jump and a cost jump when you go to cold climate. 00:19:43.090 --> 00:19:45.940 Raphaël: I'm kind of curious if you have any advice specific people who 00:19:45.940 --> 00:19:49.080 want to come work for you, people who want to work in the field, people 00:19:49.080 --> 00:19:50.910 who want to get into sustainability, 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.060 Marshall: I use recruiters very rarely because I never find 00:19:54.060 --> 00:19:55.250 who I want through a recruiter. 00:19:55.330 --> 00:19:57.050 It's mostly network. 00:19:57.430 --> 00:20:00.000 if you want to get into cleantech, go to the cleantech events, the 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.140 business plan competitions, but more so go to the accelerator events go 00:20:03.140 --> 00:20:04.410 to climate week and those events. 00:20:04.650 --> 00:20:06.080 That's where you meet all the entrepreneurs. 00:20:06.080 --> 00:20:06.770 when you. 00:20:07.070 --> 00:20:09.810 speak to people and you have a common interest you learn more about it. 00:20:09.870 --> 00:20:11.830 it's very hard to get into an industry like that when we've 00:20:11.840 --> 00:20:12.730 never worked in a startup. 00:20:13.055 --> 00:20:15.755 And there's not clear overlap between what you're doing, what they need. 00:20:16.055 --> 00:20:17.665 But you can move in that direction. 00:20:17.675 --> 00:20:19.795 You can start doing projects with companies and things like that. 00:20:19.795 --> 00:20:21.255 And it really depends on where you are in your life, right? 00:20:21.255 --> 00:20:23.175 If you're in university, super easy. 00:20:23.575 --> 00:20:26.195 if you want to get into it, after you've had a career for 20 or 00:20:26.195 --> 00:20:28.595 30 years, it's a lot harder, but it's still definitely doable. 00:20:28.935 --> 00:20:31.575 But I'd say the first step is really to meet those people, talk to them, get 00:20:31.575 --> 00:20:33.045 to know them, offer help where you can. 00:20:33.505 --> 00:20:36.025 Show that you can bring a lot to the table. 00:20:36.341 --> 00:20:36.821 Raphaël: Awesome. 00:20:37.011 --> 00:20:37.471 I love it. 00:20:38.051 --> 00:20:39.461 it is that time. 00:20:39.631 --> 00:20:42.931 I'm going to ask you for a product that you'd like to shout out. 00:20:43.231 --> 00:20:45.981 Marshall: Yeah, I think my favorite thing right now is the computer I'm 00:20:45.981 --> 00:20:48.121 using, which is a Framework computer. 00:20:48.261 --> 00:20:51.951 I hate buying pre assembled laptops 00:20:52.031 --> 00:20:53.491 that then you throw out and buy a new one. 00:20:53.881 --> 00:20:56.031 So the framework is awesome because it's not that expensive. 00:20:56.081 --> 00:20:57.841 it's as much as a normal laptop. 00:20:58.291 --> 00:21:02.556 But you buy you know, The memory, you buy the hard drive, you buy the keyboard, 00:21:02.566 --> 00:21:04.536 you buy the mouse, you buy the screen. 00:21:04.866 --> 00:21:07.086 And if any of those things break, you can replace it 00:21:07.437 --> 00:21:07.767 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:21:07.776 --> 00:21:09.146 Marshall: buying a new laptop. 00:21:09.536 --> 00:21:12.536 So I'm a big fan of them, and I met their director of products the other day, 00:21:12.657 --> 00:21:13.247 Raphaël: Oh, cool. 00:21:13.316 --> 00:21:14.686 Marshall: totally awesome. 00:21:15.277 --> 00:21:17.157 Raphaël: Do they have people in New York? 00:21:17.197 --> 00:21:18.167 Are they New York based? 00:21:18.666 --> 00:21:19.626 Marshall: No, I met them at a Yale event, 00:21:19.796 --> 00:21:21.566 a Yale entrepreneur, a client, 00:21:21.836 --> 00:21:22.306 cleantech event. 00:21:22.317 --> 00:21:22.797 Raphaël: Okay. 00:21:23.047 --> 00:21:23.487 Yeah. 00:21:23.767 --> 00:21:24.987 So, yeah. 00:21:25.027 --> 00:21:25.547 That's awesome. 00:21:25.597 --> 00:21:26.047 I love it. 00:21:26.347 --> 00:21:26.737 Cool. 00:21:26.787 --> 00:21:28.527 Well, thank you so much, Marshall. 00:21:28.527 --> 00:21:29.857 I've learned a lot. 00:21:29.907 --> 00:21:33.477 it's really interesting to understand your journey and your industry. 00:21:33.477 --> 00:21:36.057 I feel like I haven't gotten the opportunity to talk to a lot of 00:21:36.067 --> 00:21:40.947 people in this kind of like B2B to C sort of hardware is kind 00:21:40.947 --> 00:21:43.057 of unique and interesting to 00:21:43.256 --> 00:21:43.616 Marshall: interesting. 00:21:43.616 --> 00:21:46.386 Yeah, people are often very surprised about how the sales process goes 00:21:46.386 --> 00:21:49.416 just by virtue of who we're actually selling to and who benefits is unique. 00:21:49.716 --> 00:21:51.516 Raphaël: Well, thank you so much for the chat. 00:21:51.805 --> 00:21:52.555 Marshall: Thank you for your time. 00:21:52.806 --> 00:21:53.106 Raphaël: All right. 00:21:53.416 --> 00:21:53.696 See ya. 00:21:54.195 --> 00:21:54.425 Marshall: See ya. 00:21:54.846 --> 00:21:57.066 Raphaël: folks, that was my interview with Dr. 00:21:57.076 --> 00:21:59.436 Marshall Cox, founder of Kelvin. 00:21:59.736 --> 00:22:03.456 I learned so much in our chat, I really hope you did too, I hope you enjoyed it. 00:22:03.976 --> 00:22:08.096 If you like the work that we do, make sure to hit that like and subscribe button 00:22:08.096 --> 00:22:12.926 or find us on sustainabletechpodcast.com where you can subscribe in whatever 00:22:12.926 --> 00:22:17.411 podcast app you Like best, leave us a review, leave us a rating. 00:22:17.421 --> 00:22:18.691 It's really helpful for us. 00:22:18.721 --> 00:22:22.781 We're a tiny team and every little bit of support really helps us out. 00:22:23.081 --> 00:22:25.721 In the meantime, we all want to do something good in the world. 00:22:25.791 --> 00:22:28.671 So go out there and build something good, folks. 00:22:28.711 --> 00:22:30.401 I will see you in the next one. 00:22:30.951 --> 00:22:31.351 See ya.