Your brand is your reputation, and communicating it effectively is critical.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today, I'm really excited to speak with Lorraine K Lee.
I've known Lorraine for several years.
She's a teacher, content creator, speaker, and author.
Her latest book is Unforgettable Presence, Get Seen, Gain Influence,
and Catapult Your Career.
She works to help people with their communication, presence and
finding their authentic voice.
Welcome, Lorraine.
I am so excited to actually be talking to you in person.
We've talked virtually for a long time.
Thanks for being here.
Of course.
I'm so excited that you have me here.
Excellent.
Shall we get started?
Yes, please.
Awesome.
When we first met many years ago, you were helping me learn how to use more
complex and useful visualization tools.
One of the things that you taught me that I thought was really helpful
virtually is you want people to be able to see you and see your face.
A lot of us sit so far away from the camera, or we look like
we're in the witness protection program sitting in the dark.
So there's a lot of advice that you gave around just the physical setup that we do.
So it's not just what you say, it's how you're presenting yourself.
Anything else you suggest to help us show up virtually better?
The reason that framing is so important is that, like you said, not only does it
allow us to take up more of the space, but when we frame ourselves correctly,
it will make it feel like we're having more of an in-person conversation.
And when you frame yourself correctly, it allows you to use
your hands more naturally on camera, and that's a huge benefit.
Because there's been research that shows that when you use your hands
on camera, you appear warmer, more personable, more energetic, all
of these really positive things.
But so many of us, when we're at home, we keep our hands on our laps.
We keep it on our mouse, on our keyboard, and so they don't appear on the screen.
But they're one of the main ways that we communicate, that
we strengthen our message.
And again, all those positive adjectives, so to be able to have
more body language on camera is key.
Absolutely.
And when you gesture on camera in the box, be it Zoom, Teams, Meet, WebEx, whatever,
your gestures have to be higher up.
When we gesture normally in person, they're mid chest, and when we gesture
on screen for them to be shown, I like to coach people, put your thumbs at your
shoulders, and that's how it looks good.
I think it's really cool that you took a class that I started teaching for
Stanford Continuing Studies a long, long time ago and haven't taught for a while.
And you stepped in and it's a public speaking class open to
anybody globally to take the class.
I'm really curious, what are some things that you have put into place?
I know you've made it your own, that you really want to get
your students to take away.
So what are two or three key takeaways from this class that you'd
like students to have that all of us listening in can benefit from?
The first thing is that mindset is so important, and I know you talk about
this a lot, that nerves are a natural thing and it's okay to be nervous,
and what you have to do is just make sure that the nerves are not taking
over and making you forget things and want to run off stage and all of that.
But that we need to learn how to harness the nerves because they actually help
us focus more and be more attentive.
And so I think that mindset piece is really critical when it comes to
public speaking and that anyone in fact can be a really solid public speaker
with enough practice and repetition.
And then another thing I talk about in the class is the virtual communication piece.
And so to be able to know how to present yourself virtually is going to be key.
Whether you are presenting, whether you are in a team meeting, meeting
new clients, a one-on-one meeting.
I had this student, Laurie, and she took the public speaking
course, and she saw that there was a module on virtual communication.
And she told me afterwards, she was like, oh, I didn't really think that
this was relevant, and I just showed up because I paid for the class.
And then afterwards she was like, wow, I didn't realize all the
things that we have to think about.
And then she upgraded her setting.
She got the new camera, she got lighting and herself, she felt more confident
knowing she looked really great and not in witness protection, like you said before.
And also all the other students as well, they noticed it.
So it really can be a confidence booster.
And again, it takes a different set of skills, different intentionality
to make sure that you're showing up how you want to virtually.
Absolutely.
So in terms of the anxiety piece and the mindset that you're exactly right,
a lot of communicating effectively is having the right mindset.
And seeing that anxiety is something that actually is normal and natural.
It means that what you're doing is important and it's something
that you and others experience.
It's a normal and natural thing.
So helping normalize that and giving people the opportunity to
practice, I think is critical.
And really helping integrate the notion of virtual speaking just
with communication in general.
The class, when I taught it, we didn't touch virtual speaking at all.
Now, of course we hadn't gone through the pandemic then, but I
love that you're integrating the two and that you're really helping
people not just see for themselves, but giving people that feedback.
One of the things I tell people all the time that if you want to get
better at communication, you have to do communication and you have to get
feedback from others, and I love that you're continuing that tradition.
So thank you and thank you on behalf of all the students who take your class.
You are a very successful, talented, and confident young woman.
What advice do you have for others who are starting their careers and who might
be struggling to find their own voice in those careers that they're striving for?
I would say it's really important to find mentors and sponsors.
Those two things are different.
So a mentor is someone who will coach you, who will share about their own
personal experiences, who might ask you important questions to help tease out
what exactly it is that you're struggling with, that you're looking to do.
And a sponsor is someone who is going to advocate for you and really bring you
along with them and open doors for you and say your name when you're not in the room.
And so having both of these people, we don't need both at the same time,
depending on what your goals are.
But having one or the other or both, depending on what your goals are, are
going to be really helpful to have that extra hand, to give you that
guidance, to give you that feedback.
I'm so lucky, Matt, that we met and then you immediately were like, if
you're looking for a mentor, like I'm open to it, and then you've also
sponsored me and opened doors for me.
And so having that and having someone who believes in you and to open those
doors for you and then you do the thing, like the Stanford Continuing
Studies course, you mentioned I had never taught a training so long
before, but you gave me the chance.
I did it.
I have more confidence now and I continue to improve and iterate.
You made it very easy to help you.
You come with so many talents.
You have lots of great advice and guidance for personal branding.
Can you share two or three things that we should be thinking about as we go about
making our brand known on social media?
Mindset is so important.
We all have a brand already.
So I think when people hear the phrase personal brand, they think, ooh, that's
maybe icky or sounds disingenuous, or, I'm not a company, I don't need a brand.
But personal brand is essentially career brands.
A brand is in service of helping you grow your career, reach your goals,
and so to know that we already have a brand, I think is the first step.
And your brand is essentially your reputation.
And so you can either be really intentional about it and try
to form it and create it.
Or you can let people define it for you.
And so hopefully you're doing the former and then as you start doing
that, platforms like LinkedIn are really critical because LinkedIn is
now our virtual water cooler, our virtual landing page, and I like
to say the ultimate virtual office.
And so you want to be seen at work right, in the office.
And so if you're not on LinkedIn, I think that really can negatively impact your
presence, how people see you, your brand.
And on the contrary, if they see you there and it looks amazing and
you have everything filled out and you're posting content, you're going
to be elevated in their eyes like, wow, Matt has a really amazing brand.
And the really exciting thing is that can happen even before they've met you.
So a lot of people have come to me and say, oh, Lorraine, you have
such a strong LinkedIn presence.
And they say that to me like after we've met in person, but they have
an impression, a positive impression of me even before having met me,
which is a very powerful thing.
So I mentioned before, creating content is really key.
Networking on LinkedIn.
Some of my closest friends now are people who were strangers on LinkedIn before.
And then making sure that you're commenting and engaging
with other people as well.
So not just pushing content, but really being part of the community.
I want to dive into that last part first because a lot of people can
be intimidated by social media tools, LinkedIn, et cetera, but you
can actually take some baby steps just by commenting and contributing
to other people's conversations before you initiate your own.
And for me, when I first got started on LinkedIn and other social media, that was
a much more comfortable step coming in.
And I really like this idea of thinking about your brand as your reputation.
Allison Kluger, a colleague of mine, a friend of mine, she
studies and teaches reputation.
She has this saying that I love, which is, your reputation
is the echo that precedes you.
And I like that idea and having that social presence be consistent with who
we are already makes a lot of sense.
Congratulations on your book.
You have a new book coming out.
I think it's great.
In it you introduce the concept of the EPIC career brand framework.
What is this and how can we leverage it?
I created the EPIC career brand framework because when it comes to
thinking about our brands, creating our brands, our reputation, it can
feel a little bit intimidating.
Like, where do I start?
What am I known for?
And so EPIC stands for experiences, personality, identity, and community,
and so I'll dive into each of those.
So experience, these are the life experiences, work experiences that
have made you who you are today.
Personality, what is your personality?
Are you more serious?
Are you introverted?
Are you extroverted?
Introversion is a big part of my personal brand.
I talk about it a lot on LinkedIn.
Identity, so this can be your cultural background.
It can be the values that are very important to you in the workplace.
So for example, relationships are very important to me.
Following through and being known as that person who is going to do what I
say I'm going to do is very important.
So that's part of my identity.
And then the fourth piece, community, which I think a lot of people forget
about sometimes is, okay, you have a great brand, you have an idea of
what you want to be known for, but is that how your network and how
your community sees you right now?
Because if there's a huge disconnect, then something has to change
something's off, and you have to figure out how are they perceiving you?
Are you perhaps leaping too many steps ahead for what you want to be known for.
And so checking in with your manager, your peers, your cross-functional stakeholders,
that's going to be really helpful to make sure that you are aligned, that people
are seeing you as you want to be seen.
And then of course, your career brand can change over the years.
We all evolve and our priorities change, but that's a really great first
step to start thinking through it.
I love that not only is it a way of helping define how we think about
our branding, but it's actually a guide of how to determine it.
So you can actually think about each of those components and
think about what is my identity?
What is the identity I want to see?
So it serves as a way of not only packaging it up, but as
a way of thinking about it.
And I think that's great.
When you talked about community, you talked about checking
in and getting feedback.
We're not the best judges of how people see us.
And so getting that feedback.
So to me, I heard you say you first have to reflect and then
you have to solicit feedback.
And then iterate, right, as you evolve.
And that's great, and I need to spend a little time going through your
framework as well as I continue to expand whatever the brand is I have.
I really like that you took time to think about how we
introduce ourselves to each other.
Introductions can be so important and so nerve wracking for people.
I'd love to hear how we can craft what you call a UPI, a
unique and powerful introduction.
So what goes into a unique and powerful introduction?
There's a lot of things that can go into a UPI.
I think that's the beauty of it.
You can pick and choose depending on what setting you're in, who you're speaking
with, but this idea came to me because when I was working in tech, a lot of the
times I would hear introductions and it would really feel like a throwaway moment.
Oh, hi.
I am Lorraine.
I'm a whatever title.
I'm an editor, or, hi, I sit on Lorraine's team.
Nice to meet you.
To me, there's so much more that we do.
It really can impact how confident we feel, others' perception of us.
And so what a unique and powerful introduction is, is yes, it can
be your role and how many years you've been at the company, which
a lot of people like to share.
But take it one step further.
Give me a little bit more like, what does that title exactly mean?
Because it can mean one thing to me.
It can mean one thing to you.
So share a little bit more.
Do you have a mission statement or success metrics that your team is working towards?
Do you have a specific target audience?
And that way I know as your coworker or perhaps a colleague outside of work, I
know what I can turn to you in the future or what I can get help for depending
on what you've shared with me already.
And it opens up the door to more conversation too.
If I say I'm an editor and I leave it at that, it's like, okay, and they
share their role and then that's that.
But if I elaborate a little bit, then I give you little bits and pieces to
utilize conversational threading and to grab onto that and ask a little bit more.
I love that an introduction is more than just your name and title and
that you can use it as almost like a movie preview to get people more
interested in you and to really be strategic about how you think about it.
One of the things that I teach, and I like to do for myself personally, is I
like to challenge myself when I introduce myself never to start with my name.
I like to start with something that I'm passionate about or something, one, it's
different than how most people do it, and two, it allows me to convey an emotion.
It's really hard to convey an emotion about your name or your job title, and
so I love that you're building on that and giving almost a recipe for what
makes for a good, powerful introduction.
You mentioned something that I wanna pull the thread on.
You talked about conversational threading.
I certainly understand what that is, but I'm curious if you'll share with our
audience, when you say conversational threading, talk to me about what that
means and how that might look for us.
Conversational threading is so important, especially when we are
communicating virtually because so many of us are on autopilot now, where we
jump onto the call, how are you, Matt?
I'm good.
How are you, Lorraine?
I'm good.
Okay.
That's the end of the conversation.
But small talk is a really powerful way for us to build relationships.
And I know it gets a bad rap, but that's because a lot of us are on autopilot
and it's not interesting conversation.
But when you can offer up threads for the other person and then also know
how to pull on threads that you hear, so you share where you're based, or
something that you did earlier that day that made you really happy, now I learn
a little bit more about you and we can create some more genuine, authentic
conversation and get to know each other.
And so, small talk, and again, especially virtually, because we're
not passing each other in the halls.
That's such a critical way to build those relationships and to build that rapport.
And so conversational threading, it takes a little bit more thought
for you to remember to ask the questions, remember to pull on the
threads, but it goes a long way.
And it's a tool to build that connection.
We've already talked about presence on video a little bit, but I'd
like to dive a little deeper.
You talked about resting business face.
I actually chuckled out loud because obviously that's a play on something else.
I'm curious if you can share with us some very specific best practices.
You've already talked about gesturing, you've talked about
perhaps curating what's behind us.
What are some things we can do to make sure that we really shine
when we are virtual and on video?
Yes.
Resting business face.
This is a thing that happens a lot because.
Back to back meetings, especially virtually, we are tired.
We don't want to be on another video call.
And so video also mutes energy a little bit.
So we just don't seem as expressive, as energetic as
we might if we were in person.
And so one simple tip that I like to share is to smile or to think about
something funny before jumping on a call.
I know that takes a second to sort of reset before getting on a call, and it
sounds like obvious advice, but you'd be amazed like the, the difference it
can make when you look happy, when you look like you want to be there when
you look excited to talk to the person.
And, and this translates very well to virtual presenting as well, where you
want to show that enthusiasm, that energy.
And so that's a very simple tip I think everyone can implement and especially
something when you are nervous and presenting, that one can really counteract
that and make sure that people feel like you are excited to be there.
A little secret that I used to use when we all first went to being virtual.
I would watch a really short, humorous clip.
I have lots of comedians I like, and I would watch just a joke
or two, and that would just put me in a very different space.
'Cause often I was rushing from place to place.
There are acting techniques I know, and by no means am I an actor ,where if an
actor has to portray a scene that has a certain emotion, they'll try to think
of a time in their lives when they had that emotion so we can put ourselves
in that non resting business face.
Lorraine, I knew this was gonna be fantastic with lots of useful information.
Before we end, I'd like to ask three questions.
One I'm gonna make up just for you, and the other two are standard.
You ready for that?
Yes, I'm ready.
Okay.
So you've mentioned this notion of introversion a few times, and I know
that you self-identify as an introvert.
Can you talk to us a little bit about the advice you follow yourself and you
give others who are more introverted?
Clearly introversion affects the way we communicate and can be very positive.
But I'm curious to know your thoughts.
With introversion, it's really important to remember that
we have so many strengths.
I think sometimes corporate America can feel like it's made for extroverts.
It's an extrovert's world out there.
But we do bring a lot to the table, and I think part of it is
knowing what those strengths are.
So, you know a few that come to mind.
The first one, we talked about relationship building earlier when
it comes to mentors and sponsors.
You might not be the loudest in a room full of people, but you are
wonderful at connecting one-on-one.
And business is built on relationships.
People are going to want to help you, advocate for you, promote you, right?
If they like you and they know you and they feel connected to you.
So the relationship building is one very important skill.
The second one, I would say is introverts are really wonderful writers,
and so to be able to communicate your idea clearly, to summarize.
I feel like, Matt, you're doing this so well.
Like you're listening to me and you're picking out, okay,
what are the key themes?
Like that's very helpful because in a world that's go, go, go, and there's
always something else to do, to be able to slow down and process and say, okay,
this is what I'm hearing and this is what I think the next step should be.
That is going to be invaluable, especially during times of change and stress.
I think it is so important for introverts to realize that
they have so many superpowers.
You know, in the coaching practices I have and the students I teach, a lot of
people who will identify as introverts, think they're at a disadvantage.
And in fact, there's a whole bunch of research that says the
thoughtfulness, as you mentioned, the relationship building, the question
asking, that is all beneficial.
I am an extreme extrovert.
I talk first, think second, and that can get you into a lot of trouble.
I like how you said that introverts need to think about their strengths and find
other ways and avenues to communicate that might feel more comfortable.
So writing versus speaking, using the chat versus speaking in a virtual meeting.
I love that advice.
Thank you.
Question number two.
Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Normally I say your name, Matt.
I'm not just saying that because I'm on your podcast right now.
So you, and I'll say, I had the chance to interview Daniel Pink for
my book, which was very exciting.
And he has some great advice around communication, keeping
things clear, concise.
So I'll have people read the book to see what he has to share, but
he's a wonderful communicator.
Yeah, Dan is a great guy.
I had him on as a guest and he is somebody who's very kind and always open to
helping and he has great stories to tell.
Final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
I would say clarity of your message.
Relevance.
So you have to understand your audience and what they need.
So it might not be what you want to share, but they need to hear something else.
And then the last thing I would say is presence, both how and
where your communication is seen.
So clarity, relevance, and presence.
And I like what you said about presence.
It's where, as well as how, you show up.
And that's something I think we all need to think about is
where do we do the communication?
And that's not just what's in your background when you're on a virtual
call, but do I pull the person aside into a small conference room?
Do I make it on a phone call?
Really appreciate clarity, relevance, and presence.
Lorraine, this was an EPIC conversation.
I love that acronym and I love what it stands for.
Thank you for helping us better understand how we can lean into our personal brand
and leverage specific communication skills that you teach your students, that
you write about in your book and that you demonstrate in your communication.
Thank you, and I wish you the best, not just on the book release,
but everything that you do.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was great.
Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think
Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about virtual presence, please listen to episode
six, seven, and thirty-one.
This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt I Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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