WEBVTT

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You are listening to the USDN on the

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DFPN.

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Thanks for watching!

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what is up everybody and welcome to the

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united states department of nerds where we

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are for the people by the people and

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of the people and tonight from secret

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government experiment experiments

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encrypted folklore to ethical horror

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rooted in reality mark burton crafts

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stories that feel terrifyingly possible on

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this episode of the usdm podcast we dive

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deep into the

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Arakoon?

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Arakoon?

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A chill-encrypted horror novel centered on

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a genetically engineered prehistoric

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raccoon unleashed in western Pennsylvania

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and the human cost of science gone too

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far.

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This isn't just monster horror.

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It's conspiracy, survival,

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ancient knowledge,

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and government secrecy colliding in the

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woods.

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The Council of Nerds is now in session.

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mark welcome to the united states

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department of nerds my friend you're

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welcome thank you thank you for having me

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hey anytime uh again i apologized earlier

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about uh not getting back to you right

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away we were on a little little christmas

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holiday and but i'm glad we were able

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to get you in and get you scheduled

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you're the last of twenty twenty five my

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friend

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Awesome.

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I appreciate it.

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So let's jump right into it.

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What was the original spark that led to

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the creation of the haricoon?

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The original spark actually came out of

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COVID.

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Back then,

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we were in lockdown up here in

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Pennsylvania,

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and my daughter's school went virtual.

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And I was working remotely at home.

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So in the mornings,

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I would be on with her classes online.

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And then after that was done,

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I would go and do my day job

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and get that done.

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And their curriculum at the time was all

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STEM-based, science, technology,

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engineering, mathematics.

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And I got this idea about writing a

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book that

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you know, the science behind, uh,

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everything in the book actually would be,

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you know, legit,

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like this would be stuff that you could

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do in the real world.

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And, um, it just went, uh, went,

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went ahead with that.

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And, you know, the, the raccoon creature,

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I mean, if you've know your conspiracies,

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uh, you know, you know,

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the government has, uh,

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used anything from dolphins and rats and

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dogs, uh, to, to, uh,

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for military purposes,

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and a raccoon would be exceptionally adept

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at that purpose because it's got five

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fingers, it could hold a weapon,

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it's a natural problem solver.

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Just scale that up a little bit and

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you have an animalistic soldier to work

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with.

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So this one kind of went off the

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rails and grew a little bit too big

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and escaped,

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but that was the whole genesis of the

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story.

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That is so freaking awesome.

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So why a prehistoric raccoon?

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And how did you shape this into something

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truly terrifying?

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In the book, we scaled it up.

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I scaled it up to about fifteen feet

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tall.

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They say in the book it's about the

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size of a small bungalow.

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It made its way out of a lab

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on Plum Island up in Montauk and crossed

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through New York down into Pennsylvania

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and made its way through Western

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Pennsylvania.

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It is nocturnal,

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so they had a hard time trying to

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find it.

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Nobody really knows where it went in

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during the day, you know,

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whether it burrowed or caved or whatever.

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But it made its way to western

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Pennsylvania.

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Along the way,

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it caught a case of rabies.

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And, you know,

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then it went on the warpath.

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And so it really goes off the rails

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at that point.

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Could you imagine, though,

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taking the trash out of a grocery store

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at night and finding that big old thing

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eating out of your trash bin?

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It's eating out of your trash bin,

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you know, tearing off your arms,

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your legs.

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This thing's got a grip, you know, so.

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That's one of those where you open the

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door and it's sitting there eating out of

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your trash.

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You just close the door, go back in.

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I ain't taking the trash out.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Plum Island has a real-world reputation

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for secrecy.

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How much research went into grounding that

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aspect of this creature?

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Everything was researched.

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You know, the Plum Island part...

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You know,

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that was early stages of the book.

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Kind of, you know,

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it ties in the Montauk monster in that

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people, early ones that got escaped,

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prototypes, if you will, that escaped,

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turned out to be what the Montauk monster

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really was,

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was one of these raccoons that got out.

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And then the geography through Connecticut

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all the way down through New York.

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I mean, you know,

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there was a lot of studying maps and

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finding there was a particular waterfall

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where the military thought they disposed

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of this thing.

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That was in New York.

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And, you know,

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the creature went off the side of the

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falls and they never found it.

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So they assumed it was dead.

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Mm hmm.

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Um, the geography in Western Pennsylvania,

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I took a little bit of Liberty with,

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um,

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because I needed a place that kind of

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had a college town nearby and state

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college is a few hours away from

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Pittsburgh.

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So I kind of brought state college closer

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to Pittsburgh and that's the, uh, the, uh,

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uh,

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territory where this whole story takes

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place.

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But, uh, there's coordinates in the book.

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Um,

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that line up to actual places.

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If you go into Google Maps and look

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these places up, you can find them.

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There's a state hospital in the book.

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There's a side story where this kid tells

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us a backstory about this cannibalistic

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stuff that goes on in an old mental

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hospital.

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And that was based on Dixmont State

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Hospital,

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which is right outside of Pittsburgh in

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the suburbs.

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It closed down in

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But it was a creepy place that they

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finally tore down.

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So, but yeah, the genetics of everything,

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the rabies as a virus, you know,

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researching rabies was very detailed

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because, you know,

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you think you get rabies from a bite,

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but there were some studies done in the

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late seventies and early eighties that

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found,

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I think it was the University of Kansas,

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that found that you can actually get

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rabies from ingesting carrion, you know,

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rabid carrion, den animals that had it,

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vector animals.

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So, you know, everything is,

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I tried to keep everything what I call

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myth busters plausible.

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And so, you know,

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the science may drift here and there,

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but at the end of the day,

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everything in the book I think could be

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done, you know,

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if you had the ingenuity and the know-how

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that these kids in the book had.

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I like it.

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So did your journalism background

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influence how you approach the realism in

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the story and the government cover ups?

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Oh, yeah.

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I just mentioned Dixmont.

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I covered Dixmont State Hospital for about

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four years with the Pittsburgh Tribune

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Review.

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And that was part of my territory.

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And over my time of covering that,

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the owner gave me

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pretty much unfettered access to the

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property and grounds.

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So I went up and I took all

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kinds of photos, found the cemetery,

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found the tunnel system that went under

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the property.

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um, and dispelled with a lot of the,

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the urban myth, uh, people come up with,

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with abandoned mental hospitals.

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I mean, it wasn't,

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it wasn't a place of torture.

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It was a place of healing.

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It's just that the,

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the healing at that time seemed barbaric

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due to twenty, twenty six standards.

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So, so yeah, I mean that, um,

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researching the different conspiracy

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theories, um,

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that take place in the book.

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I have a sort of like a men

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in black team that is like the cleanup

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crew.

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And so, you know, bringing these guys in,

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it's all over the place.

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But yeah, the researching,

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all these places, the geography, the lore,

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the cryptids, you know,

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that were out there,

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and weaving these into something that was

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kind of a new story using existing things,

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plus the Native American aspect of it as

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well.

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I'm glad you just brought that up.

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That was actually the very next question.

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So Mingan Jones introduces the indigenous

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folklore and herbal knowledge into the

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book.

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Did you refer or work with indigenous

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people to kind of own that aspect of

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the book?

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No, and not anybody in particular.

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But what I tried very hard to do

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was to research these stories and the

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tribal affiliations and not appropriate

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anything, not passing it off as my own.

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Anything that's in the book is referenced.

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It's out there.

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It's in the world.

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There's a rich history and mythology that

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every tribe has that's unique.

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So, you know,

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bringing that into this book and having

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that representation was important.

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I didn't want to have like this magic

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medicine man, shaman, you know,

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stereotype, you know, character.

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I wanted to have a believable character.

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representation of an actual Native

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American person.

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Unfortunately,

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Pennsylvania has no tribes left.

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We are- Oh, I didn't know that.

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Yeah.

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I think the closest tribe,

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you have to go over towards Ohio or

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up into New York.

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That's wild to think about because there's

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so much woodlands in Pennsylvania still

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that you would think that there would

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still be some tribal influence there.

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And it's crazy to think about that there

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isn't any.

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Not nothing.

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Pittsburgh had a council,

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the Council of Three Rivers,

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I believe it was called at one time.

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And that was just ancestors, you know,

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people would have Native American blood,

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you know,

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they would kind of associate there.

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But we used to be,

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where I'm located in Pennsylvania,

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we're on Shawnee land,

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but there's no tribes here.

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Oh, wow.

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That's crazy to think about.

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I would never think that of all places,

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Pennsylvania wouldn't have that.

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But how important was it for you to

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balance modern science with the ancestral

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wisdom that your character Mingan provided

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in the story?

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He he provides a lot of backstory.

00:13:15.515 --> 00:13:15.917
And again,

00:13:16.136 --> 00:13:18.399
I took these these myths and I kind

00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:19.701
of repurposed them.

00:13:20.654 --> 00:13:22.495
uh, for this particular, uh, story.

00:13:23.316 --> 00:13:26.317
Uh, the balance, it was, it was important.

00:13:26.638 --> 00:13:27.038
Like I said,

00:13:27.077 --> 00:13:28.197
I didn't want to appropriate anything.

00:13:28.238 --> 00:13:31.298
I didn't want to steal anything, um,

00:13:31.359 --> 00:13:32.279
or be accused of it.

00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.941
You know, I just, I wanted to, uh,

00:13:34.961 --> 00:13:38.221
more or less highlight this stuff and

00:13:38.261 --> 00:13:40.482
highlight my science background and, and,

00:13:40.663 --> 00:13:43.344
uh, um, you know, and like I said,

00:13:43.624 --> 00:13:45.205
stick to that STEM thing and make this,

00:13:45.404 --> 00:13:47.166
make this a book that's accessible for.

00:13:48.125 --> 00:13:48.926
anyone really.

00:13:51.408 --> 00:13:53.629
My publisher is based in the UK.

00:13:54.528 --> 00:13:56.129
Which is wild to me that it's based

00:13:56.169 --> 00:13:59.350
in the UK.

00:13:59.471 --> 00:13:59.971
In England,

00:14:00.591 --> 00:14:02.352
they consider this book young adult,

00:14:03.153 --> 00:14:05.714
but here in the States with our

00:14:05.734 --> 00:14:07.434
puritanical history,

00:14:07.955 --> 00:14:10.556
this is definitely an adult horror book.

00:14:10.596 --> 00:14:14.038
So it's just take that

00:14:15.245 --> 00:14:17.126
It's crazy to see how like the,

00:14:17.587 --> 00:14:20.291
the two different countries look at the

00:14:20.331 --> 00:14:21.452
book, you know?

00:14:22.333 --> 00:14:23.235
Yeah, exactly.

00:14:23.595 --> 00:14:24.015
Exactly.

00:14:24.096 --> 00:14:24.296
I mean,

00:14:24.797 --> 00:14:26.479
at one point I approached our local school

00:14:26.499 --> 00:14:28.081
district and I said, you know,

00:14:28.100 --> 00:14:28.822
cause I like, I'm,

00:14:29.365 --> 00:14:31.126
I'm a joiner, I'm a volunteer,

00:14:31.226 --> 00:14:33.086
I'm on the board of directors with our

00:14:33.667 --> 00:14:34.607
public library here.

00:14:34.668 --> 00:14:37.548
And I tried to involve community in

00:14:37.589 --> 00:14:37.928
things.

00:14:38.009 --> 00:14:39.408
And I went to the school district and

00:14:39.469 --> 00:14:41.230
I said to the art teachers, I said,

00:14:41.370 --> 00:14:42.471
do you think we could have a little

00:14:42.510 --> 00:14:44.191
contest for a cover for the book?

00:14:44.770 --> 00:14:46.072
And the publisher was cool with it and

00:14:46.091 --> 00:14:46.392
everything.

00:14:47.802 --> 00:14:49.583
and so they said well what's the book

00:14:49.604 --> 00:14:51.846
about and i said it's about this giant

00:14:51.865 --> 00:14:53.427
raccoon i said but you know there's some

00:14:53.527 --> 00:14:56.068
mild gore you know there's some uh mild

00:14:56.109 --> 00:14:58.551
drug references there's a few f-bombs here

00:14:58.571 --> 00:14:59.873
and there and they're like uh i think

00:14:59.913 --> 00:15:04.096
we'll pass so that's um but imagine how

00:15:04.135 --> 00:15:05.538
cool that would have been for the uh

00:15:05.557 --> 00:15:06.678
for the kids though

00:15:07.318 --> 00:15:10.642
yeah yeah yeah you know you do what

00:15:10.662 --> 00:15:12.144
you can and you know you work with

00:15:12.163 --> 00:15:13.524
what you have and you know i i

00:15:13.585 --> 00:15:15.346
respect your decision at the end of the

00:15:15.365 --> 00:15:16.587
day it's a really cool cover i don't

00:15:16.607 --> 00:15:18.729
know if like there were different covers

00:15:18.769 --> 00:15:20.671
produced for the book or not but the

00:15:20.770 --> 00:15:21.971
one that you sent over to me i

00:15:21.991 --> 00:15:23.894
thought was really cool because it's like

00:15:23.933 --> 00:15:28.638
you're like i know this is about a

00:15:28.678 --> 00:15:31.860
raccoon a giant raccoon but what's with

00:15:31.880 --> 00:15:33.143
the cute raccoon on the cover

00:15:34.119 --> 00:15:34.438
I know.

00:15:34.700 --> 00:15:35.000
I know.

00:15:35.220 --> 00:15:36.961
That was my publisher, uh, Ray.

00:15:37.022 --> 00:15:39.825
She's, uh, she came up with that concept.

00:15:39.926 --> 00:15:42.187
I kind of tweaked it in Photoshop and,

00:15:42.368 --> 00:15:43.769
um, you know, you know,

00:15:44.049 --> 00:15:46.472
brought it all together, but, and then we,

00:15:46.493 --> 00:15:48.754
we went back and forth and there were

00:15:48.774 --> 00:15:49.436
a couple of different,

00:15:49.456 --> 00:15:51.638
a couple of different, uh, takes.

00:15:51.798 --> 00:15:52.960
One, I believe was a, um,

00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:55.081
If you were laying down on your back

00:15:55.100 --> 00:15:56.383
and you took a photo of a tree

00:15:56.423 --> 00:15:58.183
canopy looking straight up,

00:15:58.585 --> 00:15:59.725
that would have been a cover.

00:16:00.807 --> 00:16:04.090
She wanted to show a creature on there.

00:16:04.409 --> 00:16:05.350
I trust her judgment.

00:16:05.731 --> 00:16:07.653
She sells books and I just write them.

00:16:09.174 --> 00:16:11.797
It's a really cool concept of a cover

00:16:11.817 --> 00:16:12.898
because it's not at all

00:16:14.099 --> 00:16:15.799
what you expect it to be.

00:16:16.400 --> 00:16:18.022
I mean, it is, but it isn't.

00:16:18.042 --> 00:16:19.043
You imagine, like, oh,

00:16:19.082 --> 00:16:20.823
it's about a mutant raccoon.

00:16:21.904 --> 00:16:24.346
It should be, like, huge, you know?

00:16:24.947 --> 00:16:25.528
But it's not.

00:16:25.548 --> 00:16:27.229
It's just a little cute raccoon walking on

00:16:27.288 --> 00:16:28.190
a tree canopy.

00:16:28.210 --> 00:16:29.270
And you're like,

00:16:30.171 --> 00:16:33.354
I like it because it's like it works,

00:16:33.494 --> 00:16:34.815
but it shouldn't work.

00:16:34.835 --> 00:16:35.455
Yeah.

00:16:35.475 --> 00:16:37.557
And I like it, too,

00:16:37.596 --> 00:16:40.038
because one of my favorite,

00:16:40.938 --> 00:16:42.921
all-time favorite horror stories

00:16:45.081 --> 00:16:46.722
stories is Frankenstein.

00:16:47.903 --> 00:16:49.783
And, you know,

00:16:49.802 --> 00:16:51.303
I grew up in that era where like,

00:16:51.604 --> 00:16:51.823
you know,

00:16:51.884 --> 00:16:54.504
the Boris Karloff black and white in

00:16:54.524 --> 00:16:57.245
nineteen thirty one was on, you know,

00:16:57.325 --> 00:16:59.326
our Saturday suspense theater,

00:16:59.365 --> 00:17:00.706
what we had here in Pittsburgh.

00:17:01.625 --> 00:17:03.246
And so I grew up with those movies

00:17:03.466 --> 00:17:05.606
and, you know, he's grown to me.

00:17:06.186 --> 00:17:07.948
Frankenstein and the Hulk, you know,

00:17:08.028 --> 00:17:08.688
are like the two

00:17:09.346 --> 00:17:10.446
most tragic figures,

00:17:10.646 --> 00:17:11.967
I think in all of horror history,

00:17:12.707 --> 00:17:14.688
maybe Candyman, but you know,

00:17:14.988 --> 00:17:16.909
you have this figure that's,

00:17:17.348 --> 00:17:20.570
that's so misunderstood.

00:17:20.611 --> 00:17:22.371
And I think, you know, that, that,

00:17:22.412 --> 00:17:26.232
that subtlety that, that, that she,

00:17:26.252 --> 00:17:27.894
that she brought into that raccoon on the

00:17:27.933 --> 00:17:28.753
cover, you know,

00:17:28.814 --> 00:17:31.295
kind of gives that feeling that, you know,

00:17:31.494 --> 00:17:32.895
it's not the raccoon's fault.

00:17:33.096 --> 00:17:33.296
You know,

00:17:33.336 --> 00:17:34.936
this thing was never meant to be born.

00:17:35.017 --> 00:17:35.336
It was,

00:17:35.416 --> 00:17:36.998
it was created and it's not its fault

00:17:37.018 --> 00:17:37.778
that it's a monster.

00:17:39.503 --> 00:17:40.984
I like that thinking on that.

00:17:41.505 --> 00:17:43.925
So do you see folklore as a counterweight

00:17:43.986 --> 00:17:50.768
to unchecked scientific ambition?

00:17:50.827 --> 00:17:52.028
We're getting a little philosophy.

00:17:52.188 --> 00:17:53.249
Yeah.

00:17:53.328 --> 00:17:54.068
Yeah, seriously.

00:17:55.490 --> 00:17:57.809
I don't see it as a counterbalance to

00:17:57.849 --> 00:17:57.930
it.

00:17:58.050 --> 00:18:02.991
I see it as having a wisdom on

00:18:03.051 --> 00:18:07.614
how to use power and science is a

00:18:07.693 --> 00:18:07.973
power.

00:18:09.343 --> 00:18:09.743
Uh, it's, it's,

00:18:09.884 --> 00:18:11.365
it's a power that we all have access

00:18:11.404 --> 00:18:16.307
to, um, in, in, in, in folklore mythology,

00:18:16.548 --> 00:18:18.669
you know, even not just native American,

00:18:18.709 --> 00:18:18.989
but your,

00:18:19.048 --> 00:18:20.230
your go back to your Greek and Roman

00:18:20.269 --> 00:18:20.910
mythology.

00:18:21.990 --> 00:18:23.172
It's it's interactions.

00:18:23.211 --> 00:18:25.053
It's how do people, um,

00:18:26.095 --> 00:18:28.898
handle power appropriately, ethically,

00:18:29.059 --> 00:18:32.044
morally, and survive.

00:18:32.825 --> 00:18:36.711
And science is that power in this case,

00:18:36.750 --> 00:18:40.336
in this story that people have to wrestle

00:18:40.376 --> 00:18:40.557
with.

00:18:41.428 --> 00:18:43.409
And of course, you know, you know,

00:18:43.449 --> 00:18:44.128
science is,

00:18:44.189 --> 00:18:46.210
is what gave us the Manhattan project.

00:18:46.269 --> 00:18:48.309
It's, it's what gave us, uh,

00:18:48.329 --> 00:18:50.651
such a good movie and even better book.

00:18:51.431 --> 00:18:51.951
Yeah.

00:18:52.151 --> 00:18:54.571
It gave us, it gave us project echelon,

00:18:54.652 --> 00:18:57.232
you know, it gave us all these massive,

00:18:57.472 --> 00:19:00.534
massive government projects that, uh,

00:19:00.933 --> 00:19:01.775
you know,

00:19:01.795 --> 00:19:03.934
loads of conspiracy theories have been

00:19:03.974 --> 00:19:06.355
based on and, you know,

00:19:07.621 --> 00:19:10.603
it has gone unchecked and you know, these,

00:19:10.782 --> 00:19:13.284
these old stories tell you, you know,

00:19:13.384 --> 00:19:14.605
at their, at their core,

00:19:15.605 --> 00:19:16.806
how do you handle this power?

00:19:16.986 --> 00:19:17.807
How do you, you know,

00:19:17.866 --> 00:19:19.227
whether it's a gift from the gods,

00:19:19.428 --> 00:19:20.988
you know, like a Prometheus type of thing,

00:19:21.828 --> 00:19:23.130
or, you know, you know,

00:19:23.210 --> 00:19:26.510
how do you responsibly, um, treat this,

00:19:26.730 --> 00:19:28.632
this gift that you have as a,

00:19:28.692 --> 00:19:29.393
as a species?

00:19:32.045 --> 00:19:33.666
Yeah, no, that answer was perfect.

00:19:34.387 --> 00:19:35.950
Like, damn, that was good.

00:19:38.133 --> 00:19:42.019
So the Eric Kuhn explores ethical limits

00:19:42.219 --> 00:19:43.701
of experimentation.

00:19:44.162 --> 00:19:45.343
Do you kind of see this as a

00:19:45.403 --> 00:19:46.684
cautionary tale?

00:19:47.542 --> 00:19:48.683
of like, kind of like where,

00:19:49.023 --> 00:19:52.205
where does advanced in science like begin

00:19:52.306 --> 00:19:54.508
in like ethics stop kind of,

00:19:54.587 --> 00:19:56.788
or how far do you have to bend

00:19:57.430 --> 00:20:00.912
your ethics or scientific ethics to go to

00:20:00.951 --> 00:20:01.893
that next level?

00:20:02.413 --> 00:20:03.273
So how do you see that?

00:20:03.314 --> 00:20:04.574
Do you see it as like a cautionary

00:20:04.614 --> 00:20:06.596
tale?

00:20:06.816 --> 00:20:07.496
It's a cautionary tale.

00:20:07.536 --> 00:20:07.916
It's, it's both.

00:20:07.997 --> 00:20:12.200
I mean, you know, you,

00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:14.500
you seem like you're probably,

00:20:14.520 --> 00:20:15.501
you and I are probably in the same

00:20:15.582 --> 00:20:16.201
age bracket.

00:20:17.042 --> 00:20:17.202
Um,

00:20:18.548 --> 00:20:19.028
Growing up,

00:20:20.609 --> 00:20:22.351
they would do testing on monkeys.

00:20:22.912 --> 00:20:26.795
They would do testing for cosmetics on

00:20:27.154 --> 00:20:27.714
rabbits.

00:20:29.997 --> 00:20:31.758
All these controversies that have come out

00:20:32.578 --> 00:20:34.200
over the years that we've lived through,

00:20:35.981 --> 00:20:38.824
everything in the book is me.

00:20:39.003 --> 00:20:40.184
It's how I see the world.

00:20:40.244 --> 00:20:42.826
It's my filter in this story.

00:20:44.307 --> 00:20:46.249
Everything that I've absorbed as a human

00:20:46.288 --> 00:20:47.529
being living on this planet for

00:20:48.923 --> 00:20:51.045
know has come to the that that point

00:20:51.144 --> 00:20:52.965
you know and it's it's it comes out

00:20:52.986 --> 00:20:55.807
in my writing so all these characters that

00:20:55.867 --> 00:20:58.170
i have are different facets of me you

00:20:58.349 --> 00:21:00.191
know and and how i perceive things um

00:21:01.951 --> 00:21:03.292
you know sometimes you have to twist them

00:21:03.313 --> 00:21:05.875
around uh to make the narrative work but

00:21:06.055 --> 00:21:09.096
but still i mean you know you have

00:21:09.116 --> 00:21:13.299
uh you have uh these these these um

00:21:13.619 --> 00:21:14.941
issues that we have to deal with on

00:21:14.980 --> 00:21:16.962
a day-to-day basis so

00:21:18.111 --> 00:21:22.034
I'm sure somewhere there's unethical

00:21:22.074 --> 00:21:22.994
testing going on.

00:21:23.816 --> 00:21:24.316
Oh, sure.

00:21:24.355 --> 00:21:24.836
To this day.

00:21:24.856 --> 00:21:27.038
Yeah.

00:21:27.057 --> 00:21:28.278
We just haven't heard about it yet.

00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:31.701
And there's other conspiracy theories

00:21:31.902 --> 00:21:32.362
about that.

00:21:32.402 --> 00:21:33.403
I mean,

00:21:33.583 --> 00:21:37.086
you can look up things about Nestle and

00:21:38.146 --> 00:21:40.147
how people think that Nestle is trying to

00:21:40.449 --> 00:21:44.451
control the water supply.

00:21:44.672 --> 00:21:45.893
So that's one that's out there that people

00:21:45.932 --> 00:21:47.054
can look up if they're curious.

00:21:47.114 --> 00:21:47.253
But

00:21:49.188 --> 00:21:50.929
There's all kinds of things in this world

00:21:50.949 --> 00:21:55.849
that we've seen movies, we've seen books,

00:21:55.910 --> 00:22:00.951
we've seen comics where mankind has been

00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:05.551
on this trajectory of taking over the

00:22:05.592 --> 00:22:07.333
world in some form or another,

00:22:07.393 --> 00:22:09.012
whether it's like some kind of Terminator

00:22:09.053 --> 00:22:11.834
future where it's through computers and

00:22:11.894 --> 00:22:15.714
robots or whether it's controlling natural

00:22:15.755 --> 00:22:17.174
resources to a point where

00:22:17.741 --> 00:22:19.222
People like you and me can't go to

00:22:19.242 --> 00:22:21.042
our tap anymore and get a glass of

00:22:21.083 --> 00:22:21.403
water.

00:22:21.442 --> 00:22:21.623
I mean,

00:22:21.663 --> 00:22:23.144
it's just this type of black in your

00:22:23.183 --> 00:22:25.345
world that we're all headed towards in

00:22:25.404 --> 00:22:25.944
some way.

00:22:26.585 --> 00:22:27.704
So which who's going to make it to

00:22:27.724 --> 00:22:29.105
the finish line first, you know?

00:22:30.246 --> 00:22:30.905
Yeah.

00:22:31.006 --> 00:22:33.027
If Mother Nature has taught us anything,

00:22:33.067 --> 00:22:35.567
she eventually flips that script and

00:22:36.488 --> 00:22:38.148
self-corrects that course anyway.

00:22:38.169 --> 00:22:38.249
Yeah.

00:22:39.019 --> 00:22:39.538
Yeah.

00:22:39.578 --> 00:22:41.701
So within this book,

00:22:41.961 --> 00:22:43.863
government agents linger in the

00:22:43.903 --> 00:22:44.564
background.

00:22:45.084 --> 00:22:48.207
They appear to be scarier than the actual

00:22:48.267 --> 00:22:49.228
creature itself.

00:22:49.248 --> 00:22:53.211
Was that done intentionally or like what

00:22:53.250 --> 00:22:53.951
was like?

00:22:53.991 --> 00:22:55.573
How did you come come to that?

00:22:55.732 --> 00:22:56.053
You know,

00:22:57.114 --> 00:23:01.397
they're actually scary in their reach.

00:23:04.169 --> 00:23:05.648
They have access to all of this,

00:23:06.170 --> 00:23:06.369
you know,

00:23:06.410 --> 00:23:09.570
the full strength and power of the federal

00:23:09.611 --> 00:23:11.792
government, you know, they have access to.

00:23:14.074 --> 00:23:15.835
But in the end, I mean,

00:23:15.875 --> 00:23:18.435
they're kind of comic relief in a way

00:23:19.016 --> 00:23:22.377
in that the main man in black,

00:23:22.837 --> 00:23:24.798
you know, his name, his code name,

00:23:24.838 --> 00:23:26.140
or they refer to him as R-One,

00:23:26.180 --> 00:23:27.901
as in, you know, clean up in R-One.

00:23:28.520 --> 00:23:30.061
And they're the cleanup crew that comes

00:23:30.182 --> 00:23:30.301
in.

00:23:31.218 --> 00:23:33.519
and uh fixes these things when when you

00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:35.281
know science goes awry and if they have

00:23:35.321 --> 00:23:37.944
escaped raccoons if they have a montauk

00:23:37.984 --> 00:23:40.307
monster that gets out this is the cleanup

00:23:40.346 --> 00:23:43.930
crew that they send in and um you

00:23:43.950 --> 00:23:47.973
know they they use their their resources

00:23:48.034 --> 00:23:51.037
to fix things and i don't want to

00:23:51.076 --> 00:23:52.097
give away

00:23:52.739 --> 00:23:54.180
Because it's kind of the tail end of

00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:54.460
the book,

00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:55.380
so I don't want to give away too

00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.621
much of that for spoilers.

00:23:57.661 --> 00:23:59.501
Yeah, no, let's not spoil it.

00:23:59.521 --> 00:24:01.262
Make sure that everything is nice, neat,

00:24:01.603 --> 00:24:01.982
and tucked.

00:24:03.763 --> 00:24:06.424
Yeah, but they tuck it away,

00:24:06.444 --> 00:24:07.464
and they put it to bed,

00:24:07.505 --> 00:24:09.806
and they make sure that the public doesn't

00:24:09.846 --> 00:24:10.906
know what's really going on.

00:24:11.646 --> 00:24:12.606
No, I like it.

00:24:12.907 --> 00:24:13.288
I like...

00:24:14.243 --> 00:24:16.664
I like books like this because you get

00:24:16.684 --> 00:24:18.645
your real world stuff that could actually

00:24:18.685 --> 00:24:19.165
happen.

00:24:19.665 --> 00:24:22.146
And then you get your sci-fi that kind

00:24:22.166 --> 00:24:24.367
of intertwines through all of it.

00:24:24.867 --> 00:24:27.048
And to me, it just makes fun stories.

00:24:30.076 --> 00:24:31.117
But speaking, well,

00:24:31.157 --> 00:24:32.518
this is not really fun,

00:24:32.597 --> 00:24:35.859
but do you believe secrecy is necessary

00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:39.442
for security or inherently dangerous when

00:24:39.481 --> 00:24:42.423
it comes to these instances that we could

00:24:42.463 --> 00:24:42.903
have?

00:24:43.104 --> 00:24:45.905
Like a fifteen foot raccoon escaping its

00:24:47.086 --> 00:24:52.689
laboratory.

00:24:52.709 --> 00:24:53.910
Definitely makes for more fun.

00:24:55.090 --> 00:24:56.751
You have to have secrets as a country.

00:25:00.121 --> 00:25:01.982
Um, I think, you know,

00:25:02.762 --> 00:25:05.424
man's drive to turn everything into a

00:25:05.484 --> 00:25:06.226
weapon of war.

00:25:07.386 --> 00:25:09.387
Um, maybe that's my filter.

00:25:09.407 --> 00:25:10.929
I mean, I grew up with, you know,

00:25:10.969 --> 00:25:12.631
twilight zones and, you know,

00:25:12.711 --> 00:25:15.813
broad sterling was extremely anti-war.

00:25:16.252 --> 00:25:18.795
Um, yeah.

00:25:18.875 --> 00:25:20.415
And so, you know, it's like,

00:25:20.496 --> 00:25:22.317
and so it's like some Alfred Hitchcock in

00:25:22.337 --> 00:25:24.199
there and everything that goes,

00:25:24.239 --> 00:25:25.599
that's a great weekend right there.

00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:26.401
Um,

00:25:28.797 --> 00:25:31.137
twilight zone and but you know everything

00:25:31.157 --> 00:25:36.020
that uh everything that's good or whole

00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:37.582
everything that's good you know that it

00:25:37.622 --> 00:25:38.942
seems like you know man has a way

00:25:38.981 --> 00:25:41.703
of corrupting and uh you know how can

00:25:41.723 --> 00:25:44.605
we turn it into a weapon and uh

00:25:44.724 --> 00:25:46.425
and get a leg up on somebody else

00:25:46.665 --> 00:25:48.707
and you know i think i think that

00:25:48.747 --> 00:25:50.808
if you know people would work together a

00:25:50.828 --> 00:25:53.769
little bit more um and have a little

00:25:53.789 --> 00:25:56.050
bit less secrecy in the world and just

00:25:56.070 --> 00:25:57.051
say hey we have these

00:25:57.781 --> 00:25:59.303
amazing things we could show you.

00:26:00.144 --> 00:26:01.964
Oh, yeah, a hundred percent.

00:26:02.065 --> 00:26:03.346
We could solve a lot of problems in

00:26:03.365 --> 00:26:03.826
this world.

00:26:04.946 --> 00:26:06.188
But it's got to be about the first

00:26:06.307 --> 00:26:07.709
one to fits it.

00:26:07.949 --> 00:26:09.730
The first to fits it gets the paycheck

00:26:09.750 --> 00:26:10.730
for fits in it, right?

00:26:10.750 --> 00:26:14.653
Yep, yep.

00:26:14.673 --> 00:26:17.355
So how did your time as a journalist

00:26:17.736 --> 00:26:24.000
shape your storytelling?

00:26:24.040 --> 00:26:26.803
The dialogue was definitely one.

00:26:27.375 --> 00:26:28.876
uh, one way, um,

00:26:28.896 --> 00:26:31.317
creating believable dialogue is extremely

00:26:31.357 --> 00:26:33.259
difficult, uh, for any writer.

00:26:34.539 --> 00:26:36.340
Um, so, you know,

00:26:37.080 --> 00:26:38.942
having just people talk naturally and

00:26:39.021 --> 00:26:40.262
sound, you know,

00:26:40.282 --> 00:26:41.683
like they're talking like you and I are

00:26:41.723 --> 00:26:44.505
here, uh, was one way that, that, uh,

00:26:44.545 --> 00:26:47.105
that, that, uh, come in, came into play,

00:26:47.886 --> 00:26:49.488
uh, researching,

00:26:49.528 --> 00:26:52.368
knowing where to find information, uh,

00:26:52.388 --> 00:26:55.490
knowing how, how to use information, um,

00:26:56.178 --> 00:26:59.558
know all those things having them a

00:26:59.659 --> 00:27:02.179
backlog of stories that i've covered

00:27:02.199 --> 00:27:05.299
throughout my career that were just uh

00:27:05.339 --> 00:27:07.339
some of them you know were just mundane

00:27:07.520 --> 00:27:09.361
you know what's the council doing the

00:27:09.421 --> 00:27:13.402
night others were you know really horrific

00:27:13.961 --> 00:27:16.942
um you know you're on a scene a

00:27:17.002 --> 00:27:19.103
crime scene where where they find a body

00:27:19.123 --> 00:27:20.883
that's been melted into the couch for

00:27:20.903 --> 00:27:23.124
three months in august um

00:27:23.864 --> 00:27:24.364
You know,

00:27:24.384 --> 00:27:25.424
it turns out the guy was dead.

00:27:27.026 --> 00:27:28.967
You could smell dead bodies.

00:27:30.007 --> 00:27:31.627
Yeah, you could have smelled it.

00:27:31.887 --> 00:27:33.588
It was about fifty yards from the building

00:27:33.628 --> 00:27:34.170
and you could smell it.

00:27:34.210 --> 00:27:37.951
And the guy, you know,

00:27:37.971 --> 00:27:40.893
it turns out he was he committed suicide,

00:27:40.932 --> 00:27:42.054
but he was going to go on a

00:27:42.094 --> 00:27:42.614
rampage.

00:27:42.653 --> 00:27:44.595
He was surrounded by shells and guns.

00:27:44.795 --> 00:27:45.535
And, you know,

00:27:46.256 --> 00:27:49.557
he was loading his own and, you know,

00:27:49.617 --> 00:27:50.258
nobody missed him.

00:27:50.717 --> 00:27:52.357
He was just that type of guy that

00:27:53.038 --> 00:27:54.398
he didn't get along with anybody.

00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:57.080
And, you know,

00:27:57.221 --> 00:27:58.602
so those are the types of stories that

00:27:58.781 --> 00:28:00.123
you come across as well.

00:28:00.202 --> 00:28:06.307
And you also find that life is not

00:28:07.048 --> 00:28:08.808
black and white all the time.

00:28:09.368 --> 00:28:13.751
You know, I did a story early, early,

00:28:13.892 --> 00:28:14.913
early on in my career,

00:28:15.212 --> 00:28:17.094
right out of college on a guy that

00:28:18.015 --> 00:28:19.096
worked for a gas company.

00:28:20.424 --> 00:28:22.226
And he saved his co-workers life.

00:28:22.246 --> 00:28:23.626
He pulled him out of a ditch where

00:28:23.666 --> 00:28:24.607
the gas was leaking.

00:28:25.448 --> 00:28:26.769
And as soon as he pulled him out

00:28:26.788 --> 00:28:27.189
of the ditch,

00:28:27.229 --> 00:28:29.671
the whole thing went up in a flame.

00:28:30.471 --> 00:28:32.551
And so he was getting all these accolades

00:28:34.633 --> 00:28:35.074
for that.

00:28:35.614 --> 00:28:35.753
Well,

00:28:36.314 --> 00:28:39.536
flash forward a year and a half and

00:28:39.556 --> 00:28:40.576
the guy's on the run.

00:28:41.617 --> 00:28:42.998
There's a manhunt in Pittsburgh.

00:28:43.858 --> 00:28:44.679
He killed his wife.

00:28:44.699 --> 00:28:45.420
He killed his son.

00:28:46.108 --> 00:28:48.049
He booby-trapped his house for the police,

00:28:49.009 --> 00:28:53.593
and he went through multiple jurisdictions

00:28:53.613 --> 00:28:55.874
throughout Pittsburgh on a day-long

00:28:55.953 --> 00:28:56.473
manhunt,

00:28:57.314 --> 00:29:01.056
and he ended up dying in one of

00:29:01.155 --> 00:29:03.017
those concrete sewer tubes.

00:29:05.671 --> 00:29:07.212
But I shook hands with this guy.

00:29:07.814 --> 00:29:09.115
I congratulated this guy.

00:29:09.195 --> 00:29:13.082
I wrote this guy up as a hero.

00:29:13.122 --> 00:29:14.483
But you never know.

00:29:14.523 --> 00:29:15.486
A year and a half later,

00:29:15.506 --> 00:29:18.309
he's on a killing spree through

00:29:18.369 --> 00:29:18.891
Pittsburgh.

00:29:18.911 --> 00:29:19.632
That's wild.

00:29:20.432 --> 00:29:21.432
But it just goes to show,

00:29:21.472 --> 00:29:22.913
do you ever really know your friends and

00:29:22.952 --> 00:29:23.354
neighbors?

00:29:24.074 --> 00:29:24.554
Exactly.

00:29:24.894 --> 00:29:25.294
Exactly.

00:29:25.354 --> 00:29:25.713
And what,

00:29:26.273 --> 00:29:27.854
speaking of your friends and neighbors,

00:29:28.394 --> 00:29:32.295
yum thing says, shout out to you.

00:29:32.315 --> 00:29:34.255
But you know, it's, you know,

00:29:34.575 --> 00:29:36.855
what's that trigger that can turn somebody

00:29:36.895 --> 00:29:37.236
from that,

00:29:37.435 --> 00:29:39.395
that nice guy that can save your life

00:29:39.435 --> 00:29:39.816
into that,

00:29:40.056 --> 00:29:42.436
that guy that you just don't know.

00:29:42.977 --> 00:29:44.797
You don't know what's going to trigger the

00:29:44.856 --> 00:29:47.958
nets, you know, one, one bad day.

00:29:47.978 --> 00:29:48.157
Yeah.

00:29:48.278 --> 00:29:48.458
Yeah.

00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:53.028
I mean there's been plenty of movies like

00:29:53.067 --> 00:29:53.289
that

00:29:55.528 --> 00:29:56.890
So your previous books,

00:29:57.049 --> 00:30:00.071
Ditzmont State Hospital and Moon Township,

00:30:00.732 --> 00:30:03.355
also kind of blend history with unease.

00:30:03.875 --> 00:30:05.497
Is this kind of like your signature that

00:30:05.537 --> 00:30:07.317
you use in your books,

00:30:07.357 --> 00:30:10.500
or is it just pure coincidence that both

00:30:10.780 --> 00:30:12.082
these other books kind of carry that

00:30:12.102 --> 00:30:12.442
theme?

00:30:13.061 --> 00:30:13.843
It was coincidence.

00:30:13.883 --> 00:30:14.943
Those were my first two,

00:30:15.104 --> 00:30:16.384
and they're historical.

00:30:17.885 --> 00:30:19.928
They're those sepia-colored ones you see

00:30:19.948 --> 00:30:21.848
in the airports and, you know,

00:30:21.888 --> 00:30:22.609
local towns.

00:30:23.509 --> 00:30:23.630
And...

00:30:25.291 --> 00:30:28.094
They were just projects that I had going

00:30:28.233 --> 00:30:28.394
on.

00:30:28.993 --> 00:30:30.115
And then I kind of went dormant,

00:30:30.434 --> 00:30:31.516
you know, as far as writing.

00:30:31.596 --> 00:30:33.178
I mean, the Dixmont, I think,

00:30:33.337 --> 00:30:35.558
was two thousand seven that came out.

00:30:36.500 --> 00:30:37.601
And then, you know,

00:30:37.641 --> 00:30:40.002
I didn't do anything until Eric came

00:30:40.042 --> 00:30:42.304
around and I really had the time.

00:30:42.384 --> 00:30:44.986
COVID afforded us all the time to work

00:30:45.067 --> 00:30:46.948
on so many projects.

00:30:47.749 --> 00:30:48.088
Yeah.

00:30:48.148 --> 00:30:48.409
So.

00:30:50.029 --> 00:30:51.951
So, yeah, I mean, it's it's I think.

00:30:53.257 --> 00:30:54.636
I think my signature, if, if,

00:30:54.737 --> 00:30:58.218
if somebody had to pin me down would

00:30:58.258 --> 00:31:01.618
be, yeah, the history a little bit,

00:31:02.459 --> 00:31:06.819
but the science, uh, the, the truth and,

00:31:07.380 --> 00:31:09.861
and, and just having lovable characters,

00:31:09.881 --> 00:31:11.161
you know,

00:31:11.201 --> 00:31:12.442
characters that you can relate to is to

00:31:12.461 --> 00:31:14.221
be like, you know, Zen and Bill in,

00:31:14.321 --> 00:31:15.201
in, in the book.

00:31:15.583 --> 00:31:17.623
Um, you know, these, these are kids you,

00:31:17.803 --> 00:31:19.022
you would have gone to high school with,

00:31:19.462 --> 00:31:20.084
you know, they, they're,

00:31:20.124 --> 00:31:21.503
they're friends that we all had.

00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:24.260
growing up and i'm glad you brought up

00:31:24.340 --> 00:31:25.761
zen and bill because they are kind of

00:31:25.801 --> 00:31:28.144
thrown into chaos without any type of

00:31:28.183 --> 00:31:31.586
warning why did you choose them at as

00:31:31.625 --> 00:31:35.387
your like entry point to our raccoon eric

00:31:37.289 --> 00:31:39.310
they were me i mean there was uh

00:31:39.490 --> 00:31:40.771
me and my best friend in high school

00:31:40.991 --> 00:31:43.032
you know you just you have those lazy

00:31:43.053 --> 00:31:45.654
days where it's like hey let's just pick

00:31:45.714 --> 00:31:46.976
up and go somewhere for the weekend

00:31:47.714 --> 00:31:49.635
go fishing you know let's let's let's go

00:31:49.675 --> 00:31:52.257
hike you know let's uh that was us

00:31:52.597 --> 00:31:54.499
like we would go hiking through the woods

00:31:54.699 --> 00:31:57.220
after school you know right when we get

00:31:57.259 --> 00:31:59.080
off the bus just like drop our stuff

00:31:59.141 --> 00:32:01.862
on the front door and set off through

00:32:01.882 --> 00:32:03.962
the woods and be back in time you

00:32:03.982 --> 00:32:06.944
know for dinner exactly and you know it's

00:32:07.144 --> 00:32:09.445
like we had those days and i think

00:32:09.486 --> 00:32:11.987
everybody has those days uh so you know

00:32:12.047 --> 00:32:12.768
it's it's um

00:32:14.195 --> 00:32:16.877
It was that childhood bringing that

00:32:16.897 --> 00:32:18.358
feeling back, that nostalgia.

00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.903
And they bump into this game warden

00:32:23.383 --> 00:32:23.863
slaughter,

00:32:23.903 --> 00:32:25.585
and they bump into another game warden,

00:32:26.045 --> 00:32:29.748
Monique McKesson, and Minion,

00:32:29.788 --> 00:32:31.669
and the whole cast.

00:32:31.749 --> 00:32:35.751
And so people ask me what it's about,

00:32:35.951 --> 00:32:37.554
and I kind of say it's almost like

00:32:37.574 --> 00:32:39.755
Stand By Me meets an episode of The

00:32:39.875 --> 00:32:40.336
X-Files.

00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:44.884
so those are like two great things right

00:32:44.923 --> 00:32:47.786
there yeah this is my guy right here

00:32:47.806 --> 00:32:51.009
in the in the chat donald great guy

00:32:51.128 --> 00:32:52.849
check out his comic book powerscape if

00:32:52.869 --> 00:32:55.332
y'all haven't already it just is also

00:32:55.372 --> 00:32:58.294
making its way into stores right now so

00:32:58.314 --> 00:33:00.695
if you're in albuquerque go hit up your

00:33:00.736 --> 00:33:01.656
local comic shop

00:33:02.659 --> 00:33:04.818
His comic book is now popping up in

00:33:04.898 --> 00:33:06.839
stores, hopefully nationwide here soon.

00:33:06.859 --> 00:33:07.859
So shout out to Donald.

00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:10.400
But he used to study the Lenny Lenate

00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:11.520
growing up in Jersey.

00:33:11.641 --> 00:33:13.161
He is kind of heartened to read from

00:33:13.221 --> 00:33:14.861
someone else who knows the indigenous

00:33:14.901 --> 00:33:15.820
history of that area.

00:33:15.881 --> 00:33:17.882
So shout out to Donald, man.

00:33:17.902 --> 00:33:17.981
Yeah.

00:33:18.001 --> 00:33:20.061
How you doing?

00:33:21.501 --> 00:33:23.883
We we came up with our library.

00:33:23.923 --> 00:33:24.303
Like I said,

00:33:24.323 --> 00:33:25.563
I'm on the board of directors there.

00:33:25.623 --> 00:33:28.063
And we actually formed a sister library

00:33:28.864 --> 00:33:31.003
program with the Shawnee tribe.

00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:32.259
in Oklahoma.

00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:35.101
And so, you know, it's,

00:33:35.181 --> 00:33:36.362
it's not very active.

00:33:36.422 --> 00:33:36.642
They,

00:33:36.862 --> 00:33:38.943
they had a really tough time of COVID

00:33:39.544 --> 00:33:40.964
but we established this, we,

00:33:41.005 --> 00:33:42.425
we put the roots down and hopefully we

00:33:42.445 --> 00:33:45.307
can circle back to that and you know,

00:33:45.347 --> 00:33:46.969
make that thrive a little bit more in

00:33:46.989 --> 00:33:48.269
the, in the years to come.

00:33:48.349 --> 00:33:49.530
But, but yeah, it's, it's,

00:33:49.971 --> 00:33:51.011
I appreciate that comment.

00:33:51.031 --> 00:33:52.752
Thank you.

00:33:52.792 --> 00:33:53.792
So Doug Slaughter,

00:33:53.813 --> 00:33:54.874
I'm glad you brought him up cause he

00:33:54.894 --> 00:33:56.154
was literally my next one.

00:33:56.414 --> 00:33:57.695
What was your plan with him?

00:33:57.736 --> 00:33:59.717
Cause he kind of seems intentionally

00:33:59.896 --> 00:34:00.798
unreliable to,

00:34:02.701 --> 00:34:06.084
He's unreliable because he's tracking this

00:34:06.104 --> 00:34:09.626
thing in secret.

00:34:10.286 --> 00:34:12.849
And so he bumps into the kids,

00:34:13.829 --> 00:34:16.893
and he's looking for clues of this animal.

00:34:17.373 --> 00:34:18.554
He knows it's in the park,

00:34:19.295 --> 00:34:22.117
and so he wants to keep them safe.

00:34:22.657 --> 00:34:24.440
He's got all kinds of motives going on,

00:34:24.739 --> 00:34:27.402
but he wants to figure out what this

00:34:27.422 --> 00:34:28.463
thing is and where it's going to go

00:34:28.503 --> 00:34:29.143
to next.

00:34:29.869 --> 00:34:31.472
So he tracked it all the way from

00:34:31.753 --> 00:34:32.753
Griswold, Connecticut,

00:34:33.054 --> 00:34:34.958
down to Western Pennsylvania.

00:34:35.998 --> 00:34:38.262
And that's, you know,

00:34:38.322 --> 00:34:41.047
his story is kind of short in the

00:34:41.067 --> 00:34:41.367
book.

00:34:42.369 --> 00:34:45.072
But yeah, yeah.

00:34:45.902 --> 00:34:46.902
But he gives the backstory.

00:34:47.442 --> 00:34:48.521
He knows the history of it.

00:34:49.043 --> 00:34:50.242
He knows the conspiracy.

00:34:50.702 --> 00:34:55.204
And I think if he – it's no

00:34:55.224 --> 00:34:55.583
spoiler.

00:34:55.603 --> 00:34:57.224
I mean he gets off early on.

00:34:57.724 --> 00:34:59.563
But I think if he had survived to

00:34:59.583 --> 00:35:00.264
the end of the book,

00:35:00.304 --> 00:35:03.025
he would have been taken care of in

00:35:03.085 --> 00:35:05.585
another way because he knows too much.

00:35:06.106 --> 00:35:06.965
Oh, yeah.

00:35:06.985 --> 00:35:09.706
So let's talk about Monique McKesson.

00:35:11.226 --> 00:35:13.746
She is the warden in the story.

00:35:15.384 --> 00:35:17.204
How important to you,

00:35:18.164 --> 00:35:19.726
what was important to you when you were

00:35:19.766 --> 00:35:24.047
writing her character in particular?

00:35:24.208 --> 00:35:26.429
Not to have somebody post me in Reddit

00:35:26.590 --> 00:35:27.650
on how not to write women.

00:35:29.771 --> 00:35:30.472
Did that happen?

00:35:31.750 --> 00:35:33.572
there's a whole subreddit on how not the

00:35:33.612 --> 00:35:34.112
right women.

00:35:34.152 --> 00:35:35.353
And it's, it's just like, uh,

00:35:35.974 --> 00:35:37.596
excerpts of books, you know, and, uh,

00:35:38.536 --> 00:35:40.519
yeah, that are total cheese.

00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:41.960
There's a Reddit for everything.

00:35:42.481 --> 00:35:43.202
Yeah.

00:35:43.302 --> 00:35:44.724
So I, uh,

00:35:45.023 --> 00:35:46.286
I was trying to stay out of there,

00:35:46.905 --> 00:35:49.449
but I wanted her to, you know,

00:35:49.469 --> 00:35:50.190
be strong.

00:35:51.090 --> 00:35:51.271
Um,

00:35:53.190 --> 00:35:54.711
She's a daughter of a single dad.

00:35:55.672 --> 00:35:56.811
She's African-American.

00:35:57.492 --> 00:35:59.592
I wanted her to be in a position

00:35:59.833 --> 00:36:00.612
of leadership.

00:36:02.193 --> 00:36:04.153
I wanted her backstory to be believable.

00:36:05.114 --> 00:36:13.295
I wanted her to be a example for

00:36:13.936 --> 00:36:15.795
young women to show them.

00:36:15.876 --> 00:36:17.896
Again, the STEM stuff,

00:36:17.996 --> 00:36:19.697
the whole thing originated with,

00:36:20.583 --> 00:36:25.487
It was my daughter schooling and trying to

00:36:25.507 --> 00:36:27.588
get women in science and women in

00:36:27.648 --> 00:36:28.548
engineering fields.

00:36:29.750 --> 00:36:32.130
And so keeping in with that theme,

00:36:32.351 --> 00:36:33.932
I thought it was natural to have a

00:36:34.032 --> 00:36:37.835
woman warden who had these leadership

00:36:39.217 --> 00:36:41.838
capabilities and this strength inside of

00:36:41.858 --> 00:36:45.601
her that could become heroic at a moment's

00:36:45.661 --> 00:36:46.121
notice.

00:36:47.362 --> 00:36:47.922
And she does.

00:36:49.686 --> 00:36:50.467
I like it, man.

00:36:51.108 --> 00:36:52.389
And I know you keep bringing up the

00:36:52.409 --> 00:36:53.068
STEM program.

00:36:53.409 --> 00:36:54.990
My daughter in middle school and part of

00:36:55.050 --> 00:36:56.913
high school went to a magnet program.

00:36:56.952 --> 00:36:58.994
So I know exactly what you're talking

00:36:59.034 --> 00:36:59.355
about.

00:36:59.815 --> 00:37:01.436
It was during the COVID timeframe as well.

00:37:01.456 --> 00:37:03.177
Yeah.

00:37:03.257 --> 00:37:04.599
Now she's a pre-med student.

00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:08.583
So kind of wild.

00:37:09.043 --> 00:37:10.985
It feels like, it feels like yesterday,

00:37:11.025 --> 00:37:12.326
but it was,

00:37:12.967 --> 00:37:14.688
it's been a hot minute now since COVID

00:37:14.748 --> 00:37:15.489
and it's just wild.

00:37:16.143 --> 00:37:17.485
Yeah, it goes by so fast.

00:37:18.204 --> 00:37:19.585
My daughter's twelve now.

00:37:19.606 --> 00:37:21.867
She'll be thirteen in May.

00:37:22.547 --> 00:37:24.550
Mine will be twenty next year.

00:37:27.711 --> 00:37:28.452
It goes fast.

00:37:29.773 --> 00:37:31.715
And she's got driving school in like two

00:37:31.755 --> 00:37:31.954
weeks.

00:37:35.577 --> 00:37:37.818
Got that in the middle of the day.

00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:41.940
What draws you to locations that are kind

00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:43.920
of like dark and for God?

00:37:44.141 --> 00:37:44.922
I know if you're like me,

00:37:45.041 --> 00:37:46.021
I kind of like those.

00:37:46.161 --> 00:37:48.443
I like the history of those types of

00:37:48.483 --> 00:37:48.983
places.

00:37:49.244 --> 00:37:52.766
And I'm too old to explore them anymore.

00:37:52.826 --> 00:37:54.186
But if I was still in my youth,

00:37:54.266 --> 00:37:55.646
I would be like the first guy like

00:37:55.666 --> 00:37:57.367
trying to like there's got to be a

00:37:57.407 --> 00:37:57.648
window.

00:37:57.668 --> 00:37:59.509
We can Jimmy or something to get into

00:37:59.548 --> 00:38:00.168
this place.

00:38:00.688 --> 00:38:00.969
Yeah,

00:38:01.409 --> 00:38:03.030
I'd be that guy in the horror movie,

00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:03.231
you know?

00:38:03.251 --> 00:38:05.831
Yeah, I'm you know,

00:38:06.132 --> 00:38:08.333
it's I don't believe in the paranormal.

00:38:09.668 --> 00:38:14.489
So I willingly go into these places that

00:38:14.528 --> 00:38:16.909
have this creepy history or this creepy

00:38:16.949 --> 00:38:17.449
background.

00:38:18.849 --> 00:38:23.349
And I appreciate it for what it is.

00:38:23.750 --> 00:38:25.251
If it was a house where a tragedy

00:38:25.271 --> 00:38:28.451
took place or if it was a Gettysburg

00:38:28.490 --> 00:38:29.891
battlefield or something like that,

00:38:30.172 --> 00:38:31.771
I don't go there looking for ghosts.

00:38:32.072 --> 00:38:35.012
I go there trying to absorb what I

00:38:35.052 --> 00:38:38.813
can from the site and to internalize that.

00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:42.960
and really delve into the history of how

00:38:43.001 --> 00:38:45.864
horrific these things are that take place.

00:38:48.445 --> 00:38:50.586
But yeah, people ask me all the time,

00:38:50.628 --> 00:38:51.949
especially when the Dick's Bump book came

00:38:52.009 --> 00:38:52.369
out, it's like,

00:38:52.389 --> 00:38:53.449
do you see any ghosts up there?

00:38:53.469 --> 00:38:55.431
And it's like, no, it didn't.

00:38:56.431 --> 00:38:57.632
People would go up all the time,

00:38:57.751 --> 00:38:59.293
local radio stations and things would

00:38:59.333 --> 00:39:01.295
spend Halloween night in there and

00:39:01.335 --> 00:39:02.255
broadcast from there.

00:39:02.295 --> 00:39:03.577
And, you know, people would say, you know,

00:39:03.617 --> 00:39:07.800
yeah, I mean, the owner was super chill.

00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:08.822
I mean, he was like, you know, just,

00:39:09.202 --> 00:39:10.063
just do what you want.

00:39:10.083 --> 00:39:10.804
Just don't get in trouble.

00:39:10.844 --> 00:39:11.123
Yeah.

00:39:15.146 --> 00:39:17.949
That's like some old country stuff right

00:39:17.969 --> 00:39:18.110
there.

00:39:18.170 --> 00:39:18.650
He's like, yeah,

00:39:18.670 --> 00:39:19.931
I don't mind if you go back there,

00:39:19.952 --> 00:39:21.413
but just don't be breaking shit.

00:39:22.422 --> 00:39:24.043
Yeah, and he did everything.

00:39:24.083 --> 00:39:24.284
I mean,

00:39:24.324 --> 00:39:26.246
he filmed car commercials up there.

00:39:27.085 --> 00:39:28.347
He let people hunt up there.

00:39:29.568 --> 00:39:30.509
You know, anybody,

00:39:30.668 --> 00:39:32.010
it was four hundred and seven acres.

00:39:32.269 --> 00:39:33.851
So if you had some use for that.

00:39:33.891 --> 00:39:34.012
Yeah.

00:39:35.112 --> 00:39:35.413
Yeah.

00:39:35.932 --> 00:39:37.094
So if you had to use for it,

00:39:37.134 --> 00:39:39.956
he'd let you do it.

00:39:40.016 --> 00:39:44.619
So is there any more to explore with

00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:47.641
the air raccoon?

00:39:48.181 --> 00:39:50.804
I bring back Mingan and Bill.

00:39:51.443 --> 00:39:55.704
I'm working on the sequel right now.

00:39:55.744 --> 00:39:57.945
That book has a working title of ghost

00:39:57.985 --> 00:39:58.326
mother.

00:39:59.286 --> 00:40:02.648
It's it's, it's a little bit darker.

00:40:03.088 --> 00:40:04.648
It's a little bit more supernatural.

00:40:04.668 --> 00:40:07.831
I, I,

00:40:07.951 --> 00:40:09.510
I tell my publisher this all the time

00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:10.012
is like, yeah,

00:40:10.032 --> 00:40:14.914
that the young adult title that you put

00:40:14.974 --> 00:40:16.355
on Eric Kuhn, you know, it's like,

00:40:16.414 --> 00:40:17.135
I don't want to be,

00:40:18.731 --> 00:40:20.152
known as a young adult writer,

00:40:20.193 --> 00:40:21.313
which is nothing wrong with that,

00:40:21.574 --> 00:40:23.335
you know, but you know, it's, it's,

00:40:23.875 --> 00:40:25.195
you don't, you don't see like,

00:40:25.576 --> 00:40:27.876
you don't see any Clive Barker or Stephen

00:40:27.916 --> 00:40:29.617
King, you know, or Dan Simmons,

00:40:29.637 --> 00:40:30.458
young adult books.

00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:30.818
Yeah.

00:40:30.858 --> 00:40:32.340
So it's like, I wanted to,

00:40:32.739 --> 00:40:34.161
I wanted to like kind of stretch my

00:40:34.201 --> 00:40:36.521
wings a little bit and, uh, take the,

00:40:36.621 --> 00:40:38.543
take the gloves off for the next one.

00:40:38.822 --> 00:40:43.146
And probably still one of my favorite

00:40:43.166 --> 00:40:43.485
books.

00:40:44.996 --> 00:40:46.679
Clyde Barker's book of blood.

00:40:46.739 --> 00:40:46.978
Yeah.

00:40:47.438 --> 00:40:47.639
Yeah.

00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:49.501
Still one of my top ten.

00:40:49.621 --> 00:40:49.760
Yeah.

00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.643
All the time.

00:40:52.684 --> 00:40:53.704
But excellent.

00:40:53.764 --> 00:40:56.768
I mean, he's he's he's he's phenomenal.

00:40:56.907 --> 00:40:57.387
And, you know,

00:40:57.487 --> 00:41:00.391
Jack Ketchum and all these guys, you know,

00:41:00.451 --> 00:41:02.333
that really take it.

00:41:02.353 --> 00:41:04.514
They push the limits and they still tell

00:41:04.554 --> 00:41:05.235
a good story.

00:41:05.856 --> 00:41:07.878
And that's the important part is is is

00:41:07.918 --> 00:41:10.039
making sure the story is there and

00:41:10.449 --> 00:41:11.610
So this next one, you know,

00:41:12.231 --> 00:41:13.871
there's a little bit more body horror.

00:41:14.431 --> 00:41:17.253
Um, there's a little bit, um,

00:41:17.293 --> 00:41:18.673
there's a little bit more science

00:41:18.813 --> 00:41:19.353
involved.

00:41:20.215 --> 00:41:21.815
Um, and there's,

00:41:21.855 --> 00:41:22.856
there's a little bit more, uh,

00:41:22.916 --> 00:41:25.516
native American, uh, lore involved, but,

00:41:25.536 --> 00:41:27.697
uh, but not as much as Eric Coon.

00:41:28.463 --> 00:41:29.842
but it's Mingan's there.

00:41:29.902 --> 00:41:31.284
So you have to bring something in with

00:41:31.324 --> 00:41:34.364
him, but, but yeah, it's,

00:41:34.403 --> 00:41:37.364
it's it's just should come out, you know,

00:41:38.005 --> 00:41:39.505
I should be done with it hopefully early

00:41:39.545 --> 00:41:39.965
next year.

00:41:39.985 --> 00:41:41.344
Okay.

00:41:41.425 --> 00:41:42.784
And that was actually my very next

00:41:42.824 --> 00:41:45.246
questions was that are cryptids and

00:41:45.266 --> 00:41:46.206
conspiracy themes,

00:41:46.246 --> 00:41:48.565
something that you plan to revisit anytime

00:41:48.606 --> 00:41:48.947
soon.

00:41:49.027 --> 00:41:50.606
And well, there we go.

00:41:50.686 --> 00:41:51.327
Yeah.

00:41:51.666 --> 00:41:51.907
Yeah.

00:41:53.646 --> 00:41:57.487
I, I, I really didn't expect that.

00:41:58.961 --> 00:42:00.503
this to happen, but I mean, people,

00:42:01.023 --> 00:42:01.202
you know,

00:42:01.302 --> 00:42:03.463
really love these characters and that's,

00:42:03.623 --> 00:42:04.465
that's wonderful.

00:42:04.764 --> 00:42:08.867
And now that I have them, you know,

00:42:08.907 --> 00:42:10.367
I can do all kinds of things with

00:42:10.407 --> 00:42:11.668
them that I never,

00:42:11.907 --> 00:42:13.469
never really thought of when I was writing

00:42:13.489 --> 00:42:14.088
Harakun.

00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:16.302
so you know i can take them in

00:42:16.342 --> 00:42:17.903
different directions so this one is just

00:42:17.943 --> 00:42:19.626
like a little side story you know ghost

00:42:19.666 --> 00:42:21.007
mother's a little side story with bill

00:42:21.047 --> 00:42:24.990
mingen and um you know mckesson and zen

00:42:25.231 --> 00:42:29.014
and uh you know the the uh bring

00:42:29.054 --> 00:42:30.356
in the men in black in this one

00:42:30.396 --> 00:42:31.016
as well but

00:42:31.697 --> 00:42:31.856
Um,

00:42:31.876 --> 00:42:33.318
the other characters are kind of just like

00:42:33.378 --> 00:42:34.117
doing their own thing.

00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:34.418
You know,

00:42:34.438 --> 00:42:35.559
they're not involved in this one,

00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:37.639
but I could bring them back, you know,

00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:37.860
and,

00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:39.521
and do a Bill and Zinn story again,

00:42:39.541 --> 00:42:40.882
or I could do a Monique story or

00:42:40.961 --> 00:42:42.063
I can, you know,

00:42:42.103 --> 00:42:43.463
take them all these different directions.

00:42:43.523 --> 00:42:46.324
And it's, it's really, um,

00:42:47.485 --> 00:42:49.806
freeing as a writer to have that base

00:42:49.947 --> 00:42:50.686
already written.

00:42:50.947 --> 00:42:53.268
Now I can draw from it and, and,

00:42:53.389 --> 00:42:54.750
and take them all in all these different

00:42:54.769 --> 00:42:55.349
directions.

00:42:55.389 --> 00:42:56.931
So as long as people still like the

00:42:56.951 --> 00:42:58.452
characters and the stories, you know,

00:42:58.472 --> 00:42:59.751
that's, that's, that's great.

00:43:00.693 --> 00:43:00.733
Um,

00:43:01.201 --> 00:43:05.503
I got a review on Amazon earlier this

00:43:05.563 --> 00:43:08.686
month, and the reviewer said, you know,

00:43:08.726 --> 00:43:09.907
this was a really fun read.

00:43:10.086 --> 00:43:10.907
And I think at the end of the

00:43:10.947 --> 00:43:11.528
day, I mean,

00:43:11.648 --> 00:43:12.728
that was the highest compliment.

00:43:12.768 --> 00:43:13.969
That's the goal, right,

00:43:13.989 --> 00:43:15.471
is to have something really fun to read.

00:43:15.530 --> 00:43:16.612
You enjoyed this story.

00:43:17.012 --> 00:43:18.092
You had fun with it.

00:43:19.693 --> 00:43:21.735
Exactly.

00:43:21.755 --> 00:43:21.996
Yeah.

00:43:22.576 --> 00:43:22.797
You know,

00:43:22.817 --> 00:43:24.777
just have something that people really

00:43:26.418 --> 00:43:27.480
reverberates with them.

00:43:28.378 --> 00:43:29.900
So I'm a big comic book guy,

00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:31.440
and this actually reminded me of two

00:43:31.481 --> 00:43:34.103
different comic books by the same writer

00:43:34.664 --> 00:43:36.065
of James Tinney and the Fourth.

00:43:36.565 --> 00:43:38.146
He has the Department of Truth.

00:43:38.226 --> 00:43:39.867
It's all about conspiracy theories.

00:43:40.568 --> 00:43:42.550
And then he's also he's working on.

00:43:43.831 --> 00:43:46.293
He's got a cryptid story called Let This

00:43:46.373 --> 00:43:47.152
One Be the Devil,

00:43:47.733 --> 00:43:49.235
which is about the Jersey Devil.

00:43:49.594 --> 00:43:51.896
But that's supposed to be like the start

00:43:52.016 --> 00:43:54.239
of his cryptid series.

00:43:54.958 --> 00:43:56.260
It just so happened he started with the

00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:56.960
Jersey Devil.

00:43:57.884 --> 00:43:59.166
So it's kind of like a, a,

00:43:59.626 --> 00:44:02.548
a podge of those two stuck together with

00:44:02.568 --> 00:44:03.550
the, the Arakoon.

00:44:03.990 --> 00:44:04.831
And I think that's really dope.

00:44:04.851 --> 00:44:06.132
Cause that's two of my favorite comment

00:44:06.173 --> 00:44:06.934
posts right there.

00:44:07.135 --> 00:44:09.918
Just kind of like smashed together into

00:44:09.958 --> 00:44:10.619
this story.

00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:11.940
So it's, it's really cool.

00:44:13.101 --> 00:44:14.362
And one of my favorite authors too,

00:44:14.402 --> 00:44:15.184
with James Tinian.

00:44:17.324 --> 00:44:18.784
Nice.

00:44:18.804 --> 00:44:20.425
Yeah, it's, it's, you know, there's,

00:44:20.445 --> 00:44:22.146
there's so much out there and, you know,

00:44:22.266 --> 00:44:23.447
what's amazing too, is we've,

00:44:23.626 --> 00:44:25.527
we've done as a family, um,

00:44:25.547 --> 00:44:27.228
we went to a different, uh,

00:44:27.248 --> 00:44:28.989
a couple of different local conventions.

00:44:29.090 --> 00:44:30.831
We did, um, halfway to Halloween.

00:44:31.871 --> 00:44:33.092
Um, we did mall and we,

00:44:33.112 --> 00:44:35.193
and we did a Krampus Fest right before

00:44:35.454 --> 00:44:37.715
Christmas and the fans.

00:44:38.635 --> 00:44:40.476
The people that come to these shows are

00:44:40.516 --> 00:44:44.358
just so incredible and so open minded and,

00:44:44.538 --> 00:44:44.757
you know,

00:44:45.057 --> 00:44:47.898
just so willing to try something new and

00:44:47.918 --> 00:44:48.659
just roll with it.

00:44:48.858 --> 00:44:50.378
And, you know,

00:44:50.498 --> 00:44:53.320
it's it's it's amazing to see that open

00:44:53.380 --> 00:44:54.019
up as well.

00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:56.400
You know, people just, you know,

00:44:56.440 --> 00:44:57.780
willing to take a chance on this this

00:44:57.840 --> 00:44:59.240
book and this guy they never heard of

00:44:59.521 --> 00:45:00.041
before.

00:45:00.161 --> 00:45:01.521
It's wild.

00:45:01.762 --> 00:45:03.563
And you see the responses,

00:45:03.583 --> 00:45:04.742
you see the reviews pop up.

00:45:06.244 --> 00:45:08.927
And it's wild that it could just be

00:45:09.567 --> 00:45:11.829
a spark, you know, and they're like, oh,

00:45:11.869 --> 00:45:14.431
wow, I like this, you know.

00:45:15.311 --> 00:45:16.532
And actually,

00:45:16.652 --> 00:45:18.313
you'll surprise yourself with the number

00:45:18.353 --> 00:45:20.135
of people who will see that and go,

00:45:21.135 --> 00:45:23.237
you mean to tell me there's a fifteen-foot

00:45:23.376 --> 00:45:25.478
murderous raccoon with rabies out there?

00:45:25.498 --> 00:45:28.800
Hell yeah, let me get that.

00:45:28.940 --> 00:45:30.141
Because I would be that guy.

00:45:30.420 --> 00:45:31.161
I'd be like, oh, damn,

00:45:31.181 --> 00:45:32.523
you've got a story about a fifteen-foot

00:45:32.563 --> 00:45:32.882
raccoon?

00:45:32.902 --> 00:45:33.943
Hell yeah.

00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:38.601
It's a hard sell.

00:45:40.003 --> 00:45:44.586
I tried going through agents and

00:45:45.367 --> 00:45:48.028
publishing companies here in America for

00:45:48.789 --> 00:45:50.210
two and a half, almost three years.

00:45:50.451 --> 00:45:51.391
And I got to a point where I

00:45:51.411 --> 00:45:52.253
was so dejected,

00:45:52.592 --> 00:45:54.394
getting rejection after rejection on this.

00:45:55.615 --> 00:45:56.536
I told my wife, I said,

00:45:56.556 --> 00:45:57.777
I'm going to put this on shelf for

00:45:57.797 --> 00:45:59.057
a while.

00:45:59.137 --> 00:46:00.940
And then that's when I found Roswell

00:46:01.721 --> 00:46:02.201
Publishing.

00:46:03.146 --> 00:46:04.228
And, you know,

00:46:04.248 --> 00:46:05.849
it's a small publishing house in, in,

00:46:06.010 --> 00:46:07.652
in great Britain, in England.

00:46:08.233 --> 00:46:12.056
And she, uh, she loves niche weird stuff.

00:46:12.898 --> 00:46:14.400
Um, but yeah, you're exactly right.

00:46:14.420 --> 00:46:15.820
I mean, you tell somebody you like, Hey,

00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:17.884
this is a, a foot raccoon with rabies,

00:46:18.043 --> 00:46:18.864
you know, on a rampage.

00:46:19.753 --> 00:46:21.775
And people are like they either roll with

00:46:21.835 --> 00:46:23.556
it and they're really cool with it or

00:46:23.576 --> 00:46:24.856
they're like, you know,

00:46:25.197 --> 00:46:26.577
that's kind of too far out of my

00:46:26.597 --> 00:46:26.918
comfort zone.

00:46:26.938 --> 00:46:28.840
It's out there for somebody, you know.

00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:31.280
And that's what's great about writing and

00:46:31.501 --> 00:46:32.302
not just books,

00:46:32.342 --> 00:46:34.043
but comic books and these types of things.

00:46:34.063 --> 00:46:36.364
There's literally somebody or something

00:46:36.505 --> 00:46:38.186
out there for everybody.

00:46:39.286 --> 00:46:41.288
And eventually it will catch on.

00:46:41.489 --> 00:46:43.550
Like the friend will go, yeah, man,

00:46:43.590 --> 00:46:44.471
you got to read this book.

00:46:44.550 --> 00:46:45.871
He's like, yeah, it's about this,

00:46:45.911 --> 00:46:47.032
but you got to read this book.

00:46:47.092 --> 00:46:47.512
It's good.

00:46:50.476 --> 00:46:52.275
And it's crazy because I'm familiar with

00:46:53.675 --> 00:46:56.456
Marcosia, which is based out of the UK.

00:46:56.476 --> 00:46:57.657
They do comic books.

00:46:58.338 --> 00:46:59.478
And I get a lot of those guys

00:46:59.557 --> 00:47:00.978
on here on through the podcast.

00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:05.820
And the UK does a lot of great

00:47:05.860 --> 00:47:07.059
stuff over there when it comes to

00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:07.619
publishing,

00:47:07.659 --> 00:47:09.760
especially independent type of stuff.

00:47:10.661 --> 00:47:12.081
So I think that's really cool that

00:47:12.342 --> 00:47:14.342
Roswell, shout out Roswell in the UK,

00:47:15.342 --> 00:47:16.643
for publishing this because...

00:47:18.097 --> 00:47:20.818
It seems like you have a good book

00:47:20.878 --> 00:47:21.579
on your hands,

00:47:21.659 --> 00:47:23.440
and I'm going to be picking it up

00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:24.659
myself, to be fair.

00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:28.001
I appreciate that.

00:47:28.021 --> 00:47:29.460
So I know you said that the one

00:47:29.481 --> 00:47:31.822
thing that you wanted people to take away

00:47:31.862 --> 00:47:34.583
from this book is that this was a

00:47:34.702 --> 00:47:36.063
fun read.

00:47:36.963 --> 00:47:38.603
But what else would you want them to

00:47:38.664 --> 00:47:40.545
feel as they get to that last page

00:47:40.585 --> 00:47:40.905
and go,

00:47:43.913 --> 00:47:45.492
I know for me, it would be like,

00:47:45.873 --> 00:47:47.333
I hope there's another one coming like

00:47:47.353 --> 00:47:49.614
this because I like those types of niche

00:47:50.195 --> 00:47:52.416
books.

00:47:53.077 --> 00:47:55.197
You're breaking up a little bit.

00:47:55.217 --> 00:47:55.858
I was just asking,

00:47:56.458 --> 00:47:58.059
I know you said you wanted people to

00:47:58.159 --> 00:47:58.599
fill.

00:47:59.018 --> 00:47:59.518
Yeah, I'm here.

00:47:59.838 --> 00:48:00.480
Are you still good?

00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:04.481
Are we having audio issues again?

00:48:04.581 --> 00:48:05.822
I'm here, yeah.

00:48:05.842 --> 00:48:07.862
I just missed that last question.

00:48:08.572 --> 00:48:09.193
Oh, no, you're good.

00:48:09.253 --> 00:48:09.934
I was just saying,

00:48:10.273 --> 00:48:12.295
what do you hope readers feel when they

00:48:12.335 --> 00:48:13.416
close the final page?

00:48:13.456 --> 00:48:14.757
I know you said you wanted them to

00:48:14.856 --> 00:48:16.858
think, oh, damn, this was a fun read.

00:48:17.358 --> 00:48:19.019
But what else would you want them to

00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:27.266
fill from this book?

00:48:27.405 --> 00:48:28.487
Hopefully, you know,

00:48:28.686 --> 00:48:31.969
it checks off a nostalgia box for them,

00:48:32.528 --> 00:48:32.829
you know,

00:48:33.030 --> 00:48:35.030
that brings back their childhood.

00:48:35.851 --> 00:48:37.391
that it brings back those,

00:48:37.431 --> 00:48:39.672
those summer days where, you know,

00:48:40.112 --> 00:48:41.393
summer seemed to last forever.

00:48:43.094 --> 00:48:46.056
You didn't want to go back to school

00:48:46.077 --> 00:48:48.077
that you could tell yourself a good ghost

00:48:48.097 --> 00:48:51.358
story, you know, in, in,

00:48:51.458 --> 00:48:53.721
in scare your friends, you know,

00:48:53.740 --> 00:48:56.922
that type of thing, you know,

00:48:56.961 --> 00:48:59.623
but just have them walk away from it,

00:48:59.724 --> 00:49:01.164
you know, having, having a good time,

00:49:01.224 --> 00:49:02.885
take a trip with me, you know,

00:49:02.925 --> 00:49:04.346
let me sit down by the campfire,

00:49:04.467 --> 00:49:05.266
tell you this story,

00:49:06.067 --> 00:49:07.027
And it's a quick read.

00:49:08.469 --> 00:49:09.690
And that's what this does feel like.

00:49:09.710 --> 00:49:10.869
I've read it a million times just going

00:49:10.911 --> 00:49:12.572
over it.

00:49:12.791 --> 00:49:14.512
It feels like a campfire story.

00:49:14.532 --> 00:49:15.293
That's what's great.

00:49:17.815 --> 00:49:18.096
Yeah.

00:49:18.295 --> 00:49:20.056
So, you know, I –

00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:21.659
just hope that people,

00:49:22.041 --> 00:49:24.961
it resonates with people and, you know,

00:49:24.981 --> 00:49:26.461
brings back some memories and, you know,

00:49:26.501 --> 00:49:28.163
maybe they might get interested in some

00:49:28.222 --> 00:49:28.943
science fields.

00:49:29.003 --> 00:49:30.204
Maybe they might get interested in,

00:49:30.684 --> 00:49:31.884
you know, some local history.

00:49:32.905 --> 00:49:34.625
Maybe they might, you know,

00:49:34.945 --> 00:49:36.286
look at things a little bit differently.

00:49:36.326 --> 00:49:39.867
Or maybe, maybe it's that one, you know,

00:49:39.967 --> 00:49:41.188
one thing that leads them down a road

00:49:41.228 --> 00:49:43.188
into conspiracy theories and, you know,

00:49:43.989 --> 00:49:45.748
in looking into all that lore.

00:49:47.349 --> 00:49:47.510
So,

00:49:48.699 --> 00:49:49.420
You know, yeah, I mean,

00:49:49.521 --> 00:49:52.804
it's it's everybody has a catalyst for the

00:49:52.884 --> 00:49:53.864
interest in their lives.

00:49:53.925 --> 00:49:54.505
You know, for me,

00:49:54.545 --> 00:49:56.827
it was those old black and white movies.

00:49:56.907 --> 00:49:58.750
It was in search of with Leonard Nimoy.

00:50:00.112 --> 00:50:00.331
You know,

00:50:00.391 --> 00:50:01.954
it was Unsolved Mysteries as I got a

00:50:01.974 --> 00:50:03.856
little bit older with Robert Stack.

00:50:04.235 --> 00:50:04.876
You know, so all these.

00:50:06.217 --> 00:50:06.597
Yes.

00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:08.960
It's like these these all kind of like.

00:50:10.153 --> 00:50:12.356
you put these in your pockets and you

00:50:12.396 --> 00:50:13.679
carry them with you as adults.

00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:14.699
And, you know,

00:50:14.739 --> 00:50:16.101
I think the older we get,

00:50:16.762 --> 00:50:18.465
it's harder to talk about those things.

00:50:18.784 --> 00:50:20.027
And, you know,

00:50:20.067 --> 00:50:24.472
we lose that wonder and that openness that

00:50:24.492 --> 00:50:26.074
we had as kids, you know,

00:50:26.114 --> 00:50:26.876
to just say, hey,

00:50:27.757 --> 00:50:29.257
You know, did you hear about, you know,

00:50:29.498 --> 00:50:30.398
Montauk Monster?

00:50:30.559 --> 00:50:31.320
No, tell me about it.

00:50:31.340 --> 00:50:33.202
You know, it's it's that's that's gone.

00:50:33.521 --> 00:50:35.043
Now people are like telling me, you know,

00:50:35.063 --> 00:50:37.164
you talk about when's payday and,

00:50:37.204 --> 00:50:38.686
you know, and, you know,

00:50:38.726 --> 00:50:40.266
how much overtime this week.

00:50:40.327 --> 00:50:41.708
Did you see that TikTok?

00:50:42.568 --> 00:50:43.309
Yeah, exactly.

00:50:43.389 --> 00:50:43.949
Exactly.

00:50:46.032 --> 00:50:47.253
So, you know,

00:50:47.552 --> 00:50:48.893
hopefully it opens up these venues for

00:50:48.934 --> 00:50:51.657
people and lets them at least sit down

00:50:51.697 --> 00:50:53.338
and read something, you know,

00:50:53.358 --> 00:50:54.498
and use their brains a little bit.

00:50:56.596 --> 00:50:57.396
That'd be something.

00:50:58.297 --> 00:50:59.858
But before I let you go,

00:51:00.278 --> 00:51:03.920
what is your final message to horror fans

00:51:04.420 --> 00:51:12.047
discovering your work for the first time?

00:51:12.067 --> 00:51:14.047
Your final message to horror fans.

00:51:14.307 --> 00:51:15.509
Repeat that again.

00:51:15.608 --> 00:51:16.248
Yep.

00:51:16.268 --> 00:51:18.871
Your final message to horror fans reading

00:51:18.931 --> 00:51:20.351
your work for the first time.

00:51:20.932 --> 00:51:21.193
Yeah.

00:51:25.396 --> 00:51:25.476
Um,

00:51:30.344 --> 00:51:33.146
go with it you know um i've read

00:51:33.186 --> 00:51:35.467
horror like we mentioned clive barker

00:51:35.527 --> 00:51:38.489
where you really get taken for a ride

00:51:38.509 --> 00:51:39.989
you really have to expand your mind a

00:51:40.030 --> 00:51:42.311
lot to to accept some of the premises

00:51:42.351 --> 00:51:46.032
that he puts in in the writing um

00:51:46.072 --> 00:51:48.534
you know so you have uh he wrote

00:51:48.554 --> 00:51:50.215
a story in the hills in the cities

00:51:50.315 --> 00:51:52.936
which talked about uh all these people

00:51:52.996 --> 00:51:55.217
getting together for a battle you know

00:51:55.277 --> 00:51:57.139
that these two cities and they form these

00:51:57.199 --> 00:51:57.559
giant

00:51:58.460 --> 00:52:01.302
um humanoid creatures and it's just people

00:52:01.362 --> 00:52:03.264
you know stacked on top of one another

00:52:03.304 --> 00:52:04.744
and you're like how would that work but

00:52:04.784 --> 00:52:07.065
i mean he pulls it off so when

00:52:07.085 --> 00:52:09.327
you hear about something that's really way

00:52:09.407 --> 00:52:11.909
out of there um out of that comfort

00:52:11.949 --> 00:52:14.052
zone out of that normalcy that everybody

00:52:14.092 --> 00:52:16.233
expects you know and maybe a fifteen foot

00:52:16.273 --> 00:52:20.896
raccoon isn't so uh far-fetched so you

00:52:20.916 --> 00:52:22.838
know just keep an open mind and and

00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:25.340
you know look look for new things

00:52:26.795 --> 00:52:28.717
Shane M gives you another shout-out.

00:52:28.737 --> 00:52:30.739
Thank you.

00:52:31.099 --> 00:52:32.280
Appreciate that.

00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:32.860
You know,

00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:34.262
it's funny that you brought up that Clive

00:52:34.302 --> 00:52:35.802
Barker story in particular.

00:52:36.304 --> 00:52:37.764
I don't know if you're familiar with the

00:52:37.804 --> 00:52:38.766
TV show Grimm.

00:52:38.786 --> 00:52:42.710
Yeah, yeah.

00:52:42.730 --> 00:52:44.952
There was an episode called The Rat King,

00:52:45.411 --> 00:52:48.775
and one of the – how The Rat

00:52:48.795 --> 00:52:53.419
King is formed is actually by the –

00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:55.603
these human rats would tangle themselves

00:52:55.643 --> 00:52:58.086
together to form a giant rat.

00:52:58.166 --> 00:53:00.048
Hence the term, the rat King,

00:53:00.708 --> 00:53:05.434
which was a, you know, a foot rat.

00:53:05.873 --> 00:53:05.954
Yeah.

00:53:06.054 --> 00:53:08.597
It's you use your imagination to go in

00:53:08.697 --> 00:53:09.677
any direction you want.

00:53:09.697 --> 00:53:10.539
And, you know,

00:53:11.764 --> 00:53:13.126
this was a simple story that I put

00:53:13.146 --> 00:53:13.525
together.

00:53:13.646 --> 00:53:13.865
You know,

00:53:15.186 --> 00:53:17.148
anybody can do something like this if they

00:53:17.168 --> 00:53:20.389
have the will and the tenacity to just

00:53:20.568 --> 00:53:21.210
get it out there.

00:53:21.250 --> 00:53:23.550
And it's what's great about books and

00:53:23.590 --> 00:53:24.070
comics.

00:53:24.130 --> 00:53:26.271
And, you know, I could see this,

00:53:26.592 --> 00:53:28.512
I could see Raccoon being a graphic novel

00:53:28.773 --> 00:53:29.172
easily.

00:53:29.253 --> 00:53:30.353
That'd be really cool.

00:53:31.534 --> 00:53:33.695
You know, I don't think any movies would,

00:53:33.996 --> 00:53:35.155
movie studios would take it.

00:53:35.755 --> 00:53:37.137
But, you know, I could dream.

00:53:37.496 --> 00:53:38.757
We did get Cocaine Bear.

00:53:39.818 --> 00:53:43.460
yeah yeah well you know what right as

00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:45.240
uh the book was at the publishers it

00:53:45.260 --> 00:53:49.061
was over with roswell and my daughter was

00:53:49.081 --> 00:53:51.222
flipping through youtube and there was a a

00:53:53.103 --> 00:53:54.885
trailer for this movie called krakoon

00:53:56.027 --> 00:53:58.288
And my heart, my heart dropped.

00:53:58.307 --> 00:54:00.510
I said, Oh my God, I said, stop.

00:54:00.829 --> 00:54:02.891
We have to watch this because, you know,

00:54:02.931 --> 00:54:05.052
it's like, it was the same thing.

00:54:05.092 --> 00:54:05.293
Yeah.

00:54:06.773 --> 00:54:07.074
Yeah.

00:54:07.094 --> 00:54:08.315
And I was like, I was like,

00:54:08.974 --> 00:54:11.056
I can imagine like your heart just

00:54:11.115 --> 00:54:12.717
dropping out of your chest from like,

00:54:12.737 --> 00:54:13.657
you gotta be shitting me.

00:54:13.737 --> 00:54:14.097
Right.

00:54:14.277 --> 00:54:14.358
Yeah.

00:54:14.438 --> 00:54:15.719
And I watched his trailer for this thing

00:54:15.739 --> 00:54:16.380
and I'm like, okay, that's, that's,

00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:17.179
that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

00:54:17.239 --> 00:54:17.981
that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

00:54:18.021 --> 00:54:19.161
that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

00:54:19.181 --> 00:54:20.001
I'll never get back.

00:54:20.061 --> 00:54:20.202
But,

00:54:20.822 --> 00:54:22.202
you know thank god it had nothing to

00:54:22.222 --> 00:54:23.523
do with my book you know or anything

00:54:23.563 --> 00:54:25.125
you know because you look at you look

00:54:25.144 --> 00:54:26.226
at the world and you're like you have

00:54:26.266 --> 00:54:28.288
jaws you know comes out and then you

00:54:28.327 --> 00:54:30.230
have like you know orca you know the

00:54:30.250 --> 00:54:31.590
killer whale and you have all these like

00:54:31.610 --> 00:54:34.273
knockoffs orca was really good though

00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:36.440
orca was good i have to i have

00:54:36.481 --> 00:54:38.402
to admit you know and then now you

00:54:38.463 --> 00:54:39.943
know twenty years thirty years later you

00:54:39.963 --> 00:54:41.224
have the meg and you know all these

00:54:41.344 --> 00:54:42.846
all these different uh yeah it's a

00:54:42.885 --> 00:54:44.668
spin-off type things but it's it's never

00:54:44.688 --> 00:54:47.289
going to be jaws no never it just

00:54:47.309 --> 00:54:49.211
seems like these movies come out

00:54:49.251 --> 00:54:50.632
simultaneously i don't know if there's

00:54:50.652 --> 00:54:52.454
like moles on the set that like you

00:54:52.474 --> 00:54:54.456
know say hey there i'm sure let's put

00:54:54.635 --> 00:54:56.818
you know i'm sure but but i i

00:54:56.878 --> 00:54:58.900
had that uh that that nightmare that uh

00:54:58.940 --> 00:55:00.800
kraken was going to be something uh close

00:55:00.820 --> 00:55:02.503
to what i did thank god it wasn't

00:55:02.543 --> 00:55:03.884
thank god it wasn't man

00:55:04.864 --> 00:55:06.065
Mark, before I let you go,

00:55:06.686 --> 00:55:08.887
tell everybody where they can find your

00:55:08.967 --> 00:55:12.291
book and where they can find you.

00:55:12.711 --> 00:55:15.313
It's on, well, if you do Amazon,

00:55:15.353 --> 00:55:17.315
it's on amazon.com.

00:55:17.856 --> 00:55:19.918
If you don't do Amazon, it's bookshop.org.

00:55:19.938 --> 00:55:21.500
You can order it through your local

00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:22.840
bookstore there.

00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:25.463
Bookshop.org supports local bookstores.

00:55:25.784 --> 00:55:27.485
It's not in the Amazon network.

00:55:28.826 --> 00:55:30.608
My website is markburton.com.

00:55:31.771 --> 00:55:33.313
I'm on Facebook, Instagram,

00:55:33.773 --> 00:55:36.534
all these social medias that I try to

00:55:36.554 --> 00:55:37.295
keep up with.

00:55:38.717 --> 00:55:41.400
But yeah, and in the UK,

00:55:41.460 --> 00:55:43.822
if your audience stretches over there,

00:55:44.282 --> 00:55:45.083
Waterstones.

00:55:45.443 --> 00:55:46.224
It definitely does.

00:55:47.324 --> 00:55:49.545
Waterstones in the UK carries it.

00:55:49.867 --> 00:55:51.407
They have their own Amazon copies,

00:55:51.467 --> 00:55:53.769
but anywhere Amazon touches is probably

00:55:53.789 --> 00:55:54.811
the easiest place to get it.

00:55:57.007 --> 00:55:57.628
That's awesome, Mark.

00:55:57.648 --> 00:56:01.210
So Mark's Facebook is Mark Burton author,

00:56:01.731 --> 00:56:04.574
and you can find him on Instagram and

00:56:04.594 --> 00:56:07.775
threads at frog Elitzer,

00:56:08.336 --> 00:56:10.978
just as it sounds frog Elitzer in blue

00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:12.639
sky at markburton.com.

00:56:12.659 --> 00:56:17.043
I appreciate we everybody has that put

00:56:17.063 --> 00:56:17.923
that out there for you.

00:56:18.543 --> 00:56:20.306
And it will also be tagged down below

00:56:20.326 --> 00:56:22.927
this video on YouTube and Facebook.

00:56:24.289 --> 00:56:24.588
Mark

00:56:26.376 --> 00:56:27.617
It's been a pleasure, my friend.

00:56:28.197 --> 00:56:28.496
You too.

00:56:28.516 --> 00:56:29.938
I appreciate the opportunity.

00:56:29.978 --> 00:56:30.717
Thank you so much.

00:56:31.538 --> 00:56:34.297
So this has been another deep dive into

00:56:34.318 --> 00:56:35.878
the strange, the dangerous,

00:56:36.259 --> 00:56:37.858
and the unknown.

00:56:38.259 --> 00:56:39.858
Because here at the United States

00:56:39.878 --> 00:56:40.759
Department of Nerds,

00:56:41.300 --> 00:56:44.099
we investigate the stories that haunt you

00:56:44.500 --> 00:56:45.760
after the credits roll.

00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:48.521
The Council of Nerds are now convened.

00:56:49.001 --> 00:56:50.920
This has been the United States Department

00:56:50.940 --> 00:56:52.101
of Nerds podcast,

00:56:52.581 --> 00:56:55.081
where indie comics come to life.