Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where Chemical means business.
I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights
from leaders driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry.
Each week we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the
strategies that make an impact.
Let's get started.
Victoria: Welcome back to The Chemical Show, Where Leaders Talk Business.
Today I am speaking with Ray Sambrotto, who is the CEO of Allied Microbiota.
Ray has sought microbes and a better understanding of the roles they play,
in the environment around the world.
Throughout his career, he has spent much of his career as a
research professor in environmental microbiology at Columbia University.
And he decided.
To venture into entrepreneurship and taking his insights on environmentalism
and microbes and I guess bioremediation and other good things that Ray's gonna
share with us, into leading Allied Microbiota to help operationalize
biotech for environmental problems.
So we are gonna be having a conversation about the role of biotech in
environmental remediation, how it plays into the chemical industry and more.
Ray, welcome to the Chemical Show.
Ray: Thank you Victoria.
Good to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Victoria: Absolutely, I am really glad to have you here.
First of all, let's just start with you.
Tell us a little bit about your origin story.
What got you interested in this space, and then what led you to start AM.
Ray: I've always been a.
Big fan of the, environment and things that happen environmentally, and I was
a, Uplander in upstate New York, but I always sought after the big blue ocean.
So I eventually found myself getting an advanced degree in oceanography
and particularly microbiology, the bugs that live in the, the ocean.
And I did that for a long time, and that was my academic, expertise.
Everyone has their, uh, little cellular area in academia, and that was mine.
And so it, it was fit me, it, was enjoyable.
Academic research is, is great, really.
And, you know, you get to follow the basic research, and in my case,
doubly so because it got me outside and into the environment and on
ships all over the, global ocean.
So that was, uh, that fit me just, perfectly, but toward the, Uh, last,
I'd say over the last 10 years or so, I became more interested in the application
of what we were learning and, uh, and, uh, how to do that and make some of the
things that we've learned and, uh, and I've come up with over the years into,
commercial applications that could help, alleviate some of the, uh, problems and,
uh, challenges we have in the environment.
So that's, that was the genesis of Allied Microbiota.
Victoria: So tell us a little bit about Allied Microbiota and your
products and what you guys are doing.
Ray: it's essentially biotech for the environment.
Now, most biotech is, uh, obviously, biopharma and, uh, with good reason.
It, uh, provides drugs and services and things that we need, We can crib
a lot of that technology into the environmental space and, a lot of
the same technology that's used for,
biology and, uh, pharmaceutical applications, can be repurposed
for things in the environment.
that's the general approach.
And in particular, we're coming out of, applications that have
been fairly longstanding in the environmental space, particularly
things like, uh, bioremediation where you take, strains of bacteria and.
Apply them to the breakdown of contaminants in the environment.
This has been a longstanding, application for the last several decades now.
It started off simply just using the bugs that were already in the
soil and things, but now we've progressed to the point where we
can take very specific strains that.
Are shown to be more efficient at breaking down certain contaminants
and then use them in a selective manner, bringing, more, capable bugs
to bear on the problem, as it were.
Yeah,
Victoria: Interesting.
Well, and in fact, as you talk about microbiotics and just how
we've used that for remediation.
I mean, that's the fundamentals of like wastewater treatment, right?
Is, is using biology and microbes and what have you to clean up, water.
And obviously we're using it a lot to clean up the, the soil.
I know one of the topics we started talking about
earlier, Ray, was around PFAS.
Um, and obviously we know that we've got a PFAS issue.
I'll just call it an issue and concern.
And it sounds like you guys have figured out a way to use your
microbes from Allied Microbiota to address, address PFAS contamination.
I.
Ray: Yes.
So, uh.
Remediation has dealt with all of the standard contaminants in the past.
Things like, uh, petroleum, which is pretty much everywhere.
And then the more difficult or recalcitrant contaminants, the
halogenated things, uh, chlorinated, by fennels and things like that.
So, and we've made our mark with, , developing strains that could handle
the really recalcitrant things like, uh.
Chlorate Polychlorinated by Fennels PCBs and things like that.
And you would think that at this point there would be, there would,
it would just be a historical, problem about cleaning up some of the
residues from, uh, the prior century.
But, uh, unfortunately there's a category called the emerging contaminants, which,
continue to, uh, evolve or continue to emerge in the, uh, industrial,
space that, are of some concern.
And the chief one that you, just mentioned is, uh, PFAS per and
Polyflor al Alcohol Substances.
So these, fluorocarbons that have proven very useful in a variety of things.
Everything from, uh.
Non-stick cookware to firefighting foams, but, have been extraordinarily
difficult to, uh, break down.
So people are very interested in, more solutions than that.
Victoria: So how I, so I guess, how does this really work?
So I think about, I think about microbiology and I think about the bugs
and, you know, things are, we're using a lot of, microbes and other things
around the industry, and really around all of us just to do different things.
How does, how does this actually work and what's unique maybe about the technology
that you guys are bringing to the market?
Ray: Well, the, we call it, uh, bioremediation 2.0.
So, really using the tools that we've got over the last, quarter
century, the newer bio tools to, uh.
Bring to bear on these environmental problems.
I mean, uh, it was only about 20 years ago we learned how to
actually identify some of, most of the organisms in the environment.
They were, uh, we graduated from just culture, , dependent
techniques to the genetic techniques that we used now so we can get a
pretty good idea of what's there.
And then that helps us to, select, tax funds that really would, uh, be most.
useful to us.
So we have the literature now, uh, growing, year by year in terms
of people reporting on, various applications of the different bacteria.
And, uh, we have the, uh, tool set building up, uh, that we can use.
Victoria: So, you know, I'm trying to wrap my head a little bit around
when I, and I know you guys are in the midst of commercializing this.
What does that look like?
How do you produce these microbes?
How do you tailor it to the right solutions?
Are these big batches, small quantities?
I mean, I know, I'm assuming you guys have gone beyond the lab, but how
do you go from lab to environment, um, and really make that impact?
Right?
Ray: That's the critical thing, the scale up, which
Victoria: Yeah.
Ray: the, the big kahuna in many of these, uh, technologies.
And that's certainly the case in ours as well.
Certainly no problem.
At the benchtop, we, we have very good methods for growing bacteria
and, Uh, characterizing their various, uh, capabilities, uh, with
relation to different contaminants.
So that's comes out of the, uh, bench top, and we can do that quite well.
But as you say, the challenge comes when you have to go to the environmental scale.
It's not, bench top that matters anymore.
It's tens of thousands of gallons of wastewater that are being produced
every day by a certain industry.
It's, Hundreds or perhaps thousands of tons of soil that's been
contaminated by a certain, chemical.
So the, that's the challenge.
And so we've been doing, pilot work with a variety of, cooperative,
industries, one of which has been a, uh, soil remediation company.
And they brought in soil.
We worked at their facility in, uh, outside of Newark, Delaware.
And, uh.
They would bring in the soil and we would, mix it with our, uh, strains of bacteria.
And it was mostly petroleum, contaminated soil.
So we would, we cut our teeth on, these kinds of case studies where we were able
to, work with large volumes of soil and.
do a time series of the, uh, effect of treating them with our bacteria.
So we have, uh, you know, some, now we have some good, documentation of how
fast the, things like that are and how much better it is than, other methods.
So the biology, the selling point for the biology has been, it's low cost,
but a big, drawback has been the time.
The biological breakdown rates are usually very slow and people wanna,
uh, get the soil out and get something built and, you know, they don't
have time to wait for a long time.
So, uh, with the newer applications that we're developing, we, we've been
able to speed up that, decontamination process by order of magnitude.
So going from years to, uh, weeks in terms of cleaning up the soil.
So, yeah.
Victoria: So that's huge.
And in fact, that's probably maybe one of the winning value propositions is just
being able to speed that up because we know, I mean, As you say, nobody actually
likes to wait, um, to, to get results.
We want our results instantly.
And so time to, you know, time to execute, time to delivery becomes really critical.
Ray: And the incumbent technology there, uh, that's always.
One, that battle has been landfills.
You, you know, cut it and drag it to a landfill, we've been able to equalize
the rates there because the tipping fees and landfills, particularly for
the highly contaminated soils and materials, has gone up dramatically
and will probably continue to do so as,
Victoria: What does, what does that mean?
What are tipping fees?
Ray: When you bring a truck to a landfill and they say, okay, your truck, you have
got 10 tons of material that's gonna cost you this much to, uh, to, uh, dump it.
And that tipping fee is dependent on the class of materials.
So for Class C landfills, which are very restrictive, uh, high, highly
hazardous material, the land, uh, the tipping fees have gone up drastically.
Victoria: That makes sense.
How, what about the whole, regulatory aspect of this?
'cause I know, you know, I've talked, worked with and talked with a lot
of leaders that are in startups that are bringing new products to market,
and one of the biggest challenges, of course is getting regulatory approvals.
How are you guys tackling and approaching that?
Ray: Uh, good question because, uh, obviously the environmental engineering
is a highly regulated area and, uh.
We got around it in the soil remediation work we did because we
were working at an existing facility, so they had all of the permits.
So, yeah.
But the permitting is an, is an important part of, of this particularly
working in the environment.
So it has all of these, uh, activities have to be permitted.
And, uh, yeah, so we've been working with, companies that have
handled the permitting for us.
We do not intend to be a Contractor ourselves.
We are a, a specialty company that is developing specific tools for
these, uh, environmental, larger environmental engineering companies.
Victoria: Got it.
And so you'll be partnering with them to bring your product to market
Ray: Yes,
Victoria: and the solutions to market.
That's great.
You know, we talk about, just kind of how Allied Microbiota fits
into the broader chemical and, um, space and just environmental space.
How do you see this transforming?
Where does it fit in as we look at the products that you're bringing to market,
the technologies you're bringing to market and going, looking forward over
the next five to 10 years, where does, where do you see, um, this fit and how
do we bring you guys in to the mix?
I.
Ray: Well, uh, lowering the costs for, existing, Procedures like decontaminating,
soils and sediments, I think we can, uh, provide a more cost effective alternative
to what's going on, uh, right now.
So based on, uh, the case studies we've already developed, and then in the new
and emerging, problems such as the, uh, PFAS we mentioned earlier, We found
that they really are not the forever chemicals that they were, claimed to be.
And a lot of that's been repeated quite often in the press, but they're actually
amenable to breakdown, almost certainly at different, much lower rates than
other things because the, fluorocarbon bonds are so difficult to break.
Uh, the fluorocarbon bonds have been something that have been
almost excluded from biochemistry, and so there are very few.
Biochemical pathways that can be used to break them down.
But we found that, uh, we can get, breakdown of the, some of the p
common PAS, particularly some of the regulated PFAS, uh, PFAS and POA.
And, uh, we can either, change them chemically into less toxic forms,
or at least break down the ca carbon carbon bond to break them into smaller
compounds which are less toxic.
Victoria: So that, so I came back that, that starts to address
one of my questions, which is what does this stuff turn into?
Right?
So you're remediating it in the soil, um, and going, let's just say let's use
PFAS as the example from PFAS to what?
How does that work?
Ray: Yeah, well we've been doing our homework there with, uh, a lot
of, Lc mass spec work to actually look what happens when you do that.
How much of the, not only how much of the product disappears, but how, what
are the, breakdown products because, uh, you have to worry about forming something
that's also, toxic in the breakdown pool.
So we've been looking at that and, uh, it's.
Heavy sledding.
It's a lot of an analytical work, but we've identified and been able to mass
balance a lot of the uh, uh, work we've done in terms of breaking how much
goes into the various breakdown pools.
Victoria: What, what role does AI play in any of this, Ray?
So, you know, I've, I've talked with a lot of different companies, especially
that are bringing AI solutions to, let's just say product formulations or.
Figuring out some of this deep scientific work to get from concept to reality.
How are you guys using digital and ai, in the development of your products?
Ray: Uh, we've been using machine learning approaches and mainly for, Prospecting
for, capabilities in the bacteria.
Obviously there's millions and millions of different bacteria.
So where would you go looking?
We call it bio prospecting for new, things.
And we've been, using machine learning to help us with that, mostly from the, uh,
genetics and bioinformatics end of things.
Victoria: Yeah, that makes sense.
And that, and that's probably the right place to start, right, is uh, letting
get shortcut some of that work, um, that you would otherwise have to do.
Ray: but I think we're certainly just at the tip of the iceberg with that.
I think there'll be a lot more we can do.
Victoria: Yeah.
So, you know, we've talked a bit about your products.
We've talked about what the solution is.
Where do you guys fit in the industrial value chain?
I think that's always this concept.
And you know, I think about here on the Chemical Show and we talk with
leaders across the value chain.
Where are you fitting into the value chain?
Ray: Yeah, so the idea is to go beyond the bioremediation.
And Bioremediation has been an afterthought.
I mean, we've made a mess and now we have to go clean it up.
Well, okay, so hopefully we'll clean it.
It all up.
At that point we'll have, we can focus where we should be focused, which is
internalizing the remediation process within the walls of the industry so
that you're really having no impact now.
So there there won't be any future messes to clean up because we'll handle it.
Inside , the process itself.
And so we're getting into that.
Uh, I'd say the wastewater, uh, industrial wastewater pretreatment
is, already a, a fairly, uh, mature.
Engineering area and, uh, where people are recognizing that they're
going to build these solutions directly into their process.
It's not gonna be an afterthought.
They're going to, treat the material, inside the building.
And so that's, yeah.
Victoria: So that's interesting.
I mean, that's absolutely true in the production process of chemicals, right?
Um, when I think about P-F-A-S-P Fs, the PFAS issue is not a production issue.
It's a usage issue because obviously it's been used like in firefighting
foams, for instance, where it was the wonder chemical for a while, right?
Um, and.
Inside the four walls of the manufacturing plant.
You know, presumably some of that was done, but it's getting
out into the broader world.
So it's, so I guess it's kind of a combination that you treat it on the front
end during the manufacturing process, and that you're ready to treat it on
the back end in the after use process.
Ray: Yes.
Yes.
And so there's, uh, you know, the fulfilling the regulatory,
Responsibilities is one thing, and uh, particularly as the regulatory
limits become lower and lower, then it becomes, uh, a bigger and bi,
a bigger and bigger marketplace.
So, and, and trying to keep the cost low and trying to do it as
cost effectively as as we can.
And that, and that brings us to another area, w hich is not just
removing the contaminant, but turning the contaminant into , another,
commercially valuable product.
Now that's been done in a, a lot of areas.
I mean, biogas has been made from agricultural feedlots and,
and things for quite some time.
So, certainly not the first ones to think of, turning.
Waste products into, uh, a commodity.
So, but you can, help still more with some of these industrial processes.
You can, uh, if we can get a cost effective way to treat the waste and
then def, defer some of the, uh, cost by producing a product, then you've got,
uh, you know, you've make it, you've made it more cost effective still.
Victoria: I mean, across the industry, this is what happens, right?
So we, we keep repurposing waste streams and figuring out how to create
something good with it that people want and companies and, and businesses
want and need to use, um, et cetera.
And so that's always, I guess as part of the continual life
cycle of the value chain.
Ray: Yeah.
I mean, that's how biology, that's how ecology works.
That's how the world works that I spent many years in.
And, uh, we need to apply some of this, uh, maybe perhaps in, uh, something called
industrial ecology of, you know, finding closed loops for some of these substances.
Victoria: Yeah, I think that's interesting.
so you've obviously, you've been at this for a while.
How, when, you know, when did you guys really get started on, allied Microbiota
and then where, what's next for you?
Where are you guys going next?
Ray: Well been doing this for quite some time now, probably about 15 years if
you count the years in the university.
But then, uh, stepped out of the university with some IP from, uh, from
the university and, uh, in earnest doing it probably since about, 2020.
Victoria: Okay, so five years in.
Um, and I know from talking to a lot of founders, there is no such
thing as overnight success, right?
It is, uh, it's a journey.
Um, it's a journey.
What are you looking to do, you know, what's your goals?
What do we see?
What should we be looking for from, allied Microbiota over the next 18 to 24 months?
Ray: We're, uh, starting to get some traction in a couple of areas.
Uh, so soil is, uh, a big one and, uh, it's a, it's a huge market
and so even a small percentage of that is, uh, is a big cash flow.
So, uh, and then the wastewater treatment, both in the industrial
side and the municipal side too.
We have.
Solutions, not just in the, uh, contaminant world, but also in the,
domestic sewage world of doing some of the nitrogen and nutrient removal a little
bit more effectively than it's been done.
Victoria: makes sense.
And you'll, um, and you guys are working on partners to help take
that, your technology to continue developing it and take it to market.
Ray: Yes.
And parallel, because, uh, again, we're not the, Main contractor we're going to
be working with, uh, larger companies and, and established engineering
companies to, help them provide, uh, more bang for their client's buck
when, uh, you know, on, on the various things that they, uh, are charged with.
Victoria: Yeah.
So Ray, as you started this, I always like to talk leadership with, my guests
because, you know, it's al it's a journey.
So this has been a big journey for you.
What's maybe been the biggest surprise as you've moved out of academia,
taking the work that you've done?
Obviously with the environment, with companies, and I know that you've prob
done a lot of research partnerships with people and then actually
taking it into, an enterprise to.
Scale up and commercialize it.
What's been the biggest surprises for you?
Ray: Wow.
I don't know where to start with that, I guess.
I wouldn't call it surprises so much as I knew there'd be issues.
But how really challenging it is, you know, there's, in the academic world you
have ideas, people get excited about them.
You can start to do a, uh, a seminar series and, and, uh, put together, uh, a
publication and things and there you go.
That's the product.
In the industrial world, of course, it's much.
good idea is great, but you still have to, get people to buy off on that.
And, uh, there's good reasons not to change the way you're
doing something if it's working.
You know, there's the, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
attitude toward, new technology and, and in the world of, uh, remediation,
since it's not typically, uh.
The key part of an, the industrial process.
For most con companies, it's kind of an afterthought.
So, convincing people that, these kinds of approaches, not just cost
effective, but are going to lead to, uh, a better, simplified process for them.
You know, it's a, it's a, it's a process.
It's a road and, uh, it's, it's not a simple one.
Victoria: Yeah, absolutely.
Um, awesome.
So what else should we, um, what else do you want people to know about what
you're doing and what Allied is doing?
Ray: Uh, we're getting better as the tools get better and as the,
uh, particularly as I think it will, the regulations, uh, continue to,
Increase the market, uh, we're here.
And, uh, I think you'll see a lot more of these kinds of, solutions,
biologically based solutions.
They're not, uh, the only one in town.
Certainly there's chemistry and physics and other things that happened, but,
uh, biology is certainly ready and it's been underutilized in the past.
And, uh, I think you'll see it come on quite strong in the next five or 10 years.
Victoria: Awesome.
I think so as well.
Well, Ray, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your story and
the story about Allied Microbiota.
Ray: Thank you, Victoria.
Good speaking with you.
Victoria: Yeah, and thank you everyone for joining us today.
Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will
talk with you again soon.