WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.170 --> 00:00:05.370 Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where Chemical means business. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:09.720 I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:13.590 from leaders driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry. 00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:18.840 Each week we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the 00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:20.610 strategies that make an impact. 00:00:20.910 --> 00:00:21.720 Let's get started. 00:00:23.373 --> 00:00:26.413 Victoria: Welcome back to The Chemical Show, Where Leaders Talk Business. 00:00:26.683 --> 00:00:32.893 Today I am speaking with Ray Sambrotto, who is the CEO of Allied Microbiota. 00:00:33.793 --> 00:00:38.203 Ray has sought microbes and a better understanding of the roles they play, 00:00:38.253 --> 00:00:39.723 in the environment around the world. 00:00:39.723 --> 00:00:43.023 Throughout his career, he has spent much of his career as a 00:00:43.053 --> 00:00:48.333 research professor in environmental microbiology at Columbia University. 00:00:48.713 --> 00:00:49.943 And he decided. 00:00:50.423 --> 00:00:57.653 To venture into entrepreneurship and taking his insights on environmentalism 00:00:57.713 --> 00:01:02.693 and microbes and I guess bioremediation and other good things that Ray's gonna 00:01:02.693 --> 00:01:08.133 share with us, into leading Allied Microbiota to help operationalize 00:01:08.163 --> 00:01:11.133 biotech for environmental problems. 00:01:11.133 --> 00:01:16.553 So we are gonna be having a conversation about the role of biotech in 00:01:16.553 --> 00:01:22.473 environmental remediation, how it plays into the chemical industry and more. 00:01:22.863 --> 00:01:24.693 Ray, welcome to the Chemical Show. 00:01:25.497 --> 00:01:26.172 Ray: Thank you Victoria. 00:01:26.242 --> 00:01:26.892 Good to be here. 00:01:27.072 --> 00:01:28.212 Thanks for having me. 00:01:28.447 --> 00:01:30.667 Victoria: Absolutely, I am really glad to have you here. 00:01:30.997 --> 00:01:32.557 First of all, let's just start with you. 00:01:32.557 --> 00:01:34.507 Tell us a little bit about your origin story. 00:01:35.197 --> 00:01:40.682 What got you interested in this space, and then what led you to start AM. 00:01:41.405 --> 00:01:42.615 Ray: I've always been a. 00:01:42.912 --> 00:01:46.942 Big fan of the, environment and things that happen environmentally, and I was 00:01:46.942 --> 00:01:52.112 a, Uplander in upstate New York, but I always sought after the big blue ocean. 00:01:52.112 --> 00:01:56.552 So I eventually found myself getting an advanced degree in oceanography 00:01:56.552 --> 00:02:00.722 and particularly microbiology, the bugs that live in the, the ocean. 00:02:01.052 --> 00:02:05.035 And I did that for a long time, and that was my academic, expertise. 00:02:05.035 --> 00:02:10.405 Everyone has their, uh, little cellular area in academia, and that was mine. 00:02:10.555 --> 00:02:13.915 And so it, it was fit me, it, was enjoyable. 00:02:14.270 --> 00:02:16.710 Academic research is, is great, really. 00:02:16.980 --> 00:02:21.030 And, you know, you get to follow the basic research, and in my case, 00:02:21.030 --> 00:02:25.650 doubly so because it got me outside and into the environment and on 00:02:25.650 --> 00:02:27.940 ships all over the, global ocean. 00:02:27.940 --> 00:02:32.793 So that was, uh, that fit me just, perfectly, but toward the, Uh, last, 00:02:32.793 --> 00:02:38.223 I'd say over the last 10 years or so, I became more interested in the application 00:02:38.253 --> 00:02:43.247 of what we were learning and, uh, and, uh, how to do that and make some of the 00:02:43.247 --> 00:02:48.497 things that we've learned and, uh, and I've come up with over the years into, 00:02:48.597 --> 00:02:53.927 commercial applications that could help, alleviate some of the, uh, problems and, 00:02:53.927 --> 00:02:56.117 uh, challenges we have in the environment. 00:02:56.117 --> 00:03:00.287 So that's, that was the genesis of Allied Microbiota. 00:03:00.903 --> 00:03:05.103 Victoria: So tell us a little bit about Allied Microbiota and your 00:03:05.103 --> 00:03:06.723 products and what you guys are doing. 00:03:07.210 --> 00:03:10.120 Ray: it's essentially biotech for the environment. 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:16.370 Now, most biotech is, uh, obviously, biopharma and, uh, with good reason. 00:03:16.370 --> 00:03:21.195 It, uh, provides drugs and services and things that we need, We can crib 00:03:21.225 --> 00:03:26.198 a lot of that technology into the environmental space and, a lot of 00:03:26.198 --> 00:03:29.365 the same technology that's used for, 00:03:29.415 --> 00:03:34.225 biology and, uh, pharmaceutical applications, can be repurposed 00:03:34.225 --> 00:03:35.755 for things in the environment. 00:03:35.928 --> 00:03:37.278 that's the general approach. 00:03:37.548 --> 00:03:41.118 And in particular, we're coming out of, applications that have 00:03:41.328 --> 00:03:44.688 been fairly longstanding in the environmental space, particularly 00:03:44.688 --> 00:03:49.978 things like, uh, bioremediation where you take, strains of bacteria and. 00:03:50.442 --> 00:03:53.742 Apply them to the breakdown of contaminants in the environment. 00:03:53.742 --> 00:03:58.682 This has been a longstanding, application for the last several decades now. 00:03:59.162 --> 00:04:03.182 It started off simply just using the bugs that were already in the 00:04:03.182 --> 00:04:05.852 soil and things, but now we've progressed to the point where we 00:04:05.852 --> 00:04:08.432 can take very specific strains that. 00:04:08.757 --> 00:04:13.107 Are shown to be more efficient at breaking down certain contaminants 00:04:13.107 --> 00:04:17.633 and then use them in a selective manner, bringing, more, capable bugs 00:04:17.633 --> 00:04:19.853 to bear on the problem, as it were. 00:04:20.188 --> 00:04:20.478 Yeah, 00:04:21.238 --> 00:04:21.478 Victoria: Interesting. 00:04:21.548 --> 00:04:25.443 Well, and in fact, as you talk about microbiotics and just how 00:04:25.443 --> 00:04:27.213 we've used that for remediation. 00:04:27.243 --> 00:04:30.903 I mean, that's the fundamentals of like wastewater treatment, right? 00:04:30.903 --> 00:04:36.983 Is, is using biology and microbes and what have you to clean up, water. 00:04:37.043 --> 00:04:39.923 And obviously we're using it a lot to clean up the, the soil. 00:04:40.283 --> 00:04:42.623 I know one of the topics we started talking about 00:04:42.623 --> 00:04:44.273 earlier, Ray, was around PFAS. 00:04:44.333 --> 00:04:47.053 Um, and obviously we know that we've got a PFAS issue. 00:04:47.972 --> 00:04:49.772 I'll just call it an issue and concern. 00:04:49.872 --> 00:04:55.482 And it sounds like you guys have figured out a way to use your 00:04:55.482 --> 00:05:00.632 microbes from Allied Microbiota to address, address PFAS contamination. 00:05:00.632 --> 00:05:00.662 I. 00:05:01.323 --> 00:05:01.773 Ray: Yes. 00:05:01.803 --> 00:05:02.613 So, uh. 00:05:03.047 --> 00:05:07.577 Remediation has dealt with all of the standard contaminants in the past. 00:05:07.577 --> 00:05:10.607 Things like, uh, petroleum, which is pretty much everywhere. 00:05:10.907 --> 00:05:14.947 And then the more difficult or recalcitrant contaminants, the 00:05:14.947 --> 00:05:19.110 halogenated things, uh, chlorinated, by fennels and things like that. 00:05:19.110 --> 00:05:23.020 So, and we've made our mark with, , developing strains that could handle 00:05:23.050 --> 00:05:25.750 the really recalcitrant things like, uh. 00:05:26.073 --> 00:05:29.493 Chlorate Polychlorinated by Fennels PCBs and things like that. 00:05:29.943 --> 00:05:33.543 And you would think that at this point there would be, there would, 00:05:33.543 --> 00:05:36.983 it would just be a historical, problem about cleaning up some of the 00:05:36.983 --> 00:05:39.653 residues from, uh, the prior century. 00:05:40.308 --> 00:05:44.898 But, uh, unfortunately there's a category called the emerging contaminants, which, 00:05:44.898 --> 00:05:50.448 continue to, uh, evolve or continue to emerge in the, uh, industrial, 00:05:50.498 --> 00:05:52.768 space that, are of some concern. 00:05:52.768 --> 00:05:56.698 And the chief one that you, just mentioned is, uh, PFAS per and 00:05:56.728 --> 00:05:58.798 Polyflor al Alcohol Substances. 00:05:59.218 --> 00:06:05.058 So these, fluorocarbons that have proven very useful in a variety of things. 00:06:05.058 --> 00:06:06.078 Everything from, uh. 00:06:06.327 --> 00:06:12.367 Non-stick cookware to firefighting foams, but, have been extraordinarily 00:06:12.427 --> 00:06:14.257 difficult to, uh, break down. 00:06:14.887 --> 00:06:18.582 So people are very interested in, more solutions than that. 00:06:19.117 --> 00:06:21.697 Victoria: So how I, so I guess, how does this really work? 00:06:21.697 --> 00:06:26.437 So I think about, I think about microbiology and I think about the bugs 00:06:26.437 --> 00:06:31.627 and, you know, things are, we're using a lot of, microbes and other things 00:06:31.657 --> 00:06:35.543 around the industry, and really around all of us just to do different things. 00:06:35.543 --> 00:06:40.163 How does, how does this actually work and what's unique maybe about the technology 00:06:40.163 --> 00:06:41.693 that you guys are bringing to the market? 00:06:42.407 --> 00:06:46.097 Ray: Well, the, we call it, uh, bioremediation 2.0. 00:06:46.097 --> 00:06:49.957 So, really using the tools that we've got over the last, quarter 00:06:49.957 --> 00:06:52.747 century, the newer bio tools to, uh. 00:06:52.943 --> 00:06:54.863 Bring to bear on these environmental problems. 00:06:54.863 --> 00:06:59.033 I mean, uh, it was only about 20 years ago we learned how to 00:06:59.033 --> 00:07:03.053 actually identify some of, most of the organisms in the environment. 00:07:03.053 --> 00:07:07.220 They were, uh, we graduated from just culture, , dependent 00:07:07.220 --> 00:07:11.210 techniques to the genetic techniques that we used now so we can get a 00:07:11.210 --> 00:07:13.190 pretty good idea of what's there. 00:07:13.400 --> 00:07:18.890 And then that helps us to, select, tax funds that really would, uh, be most. 00:07:19.078 --> 00:07:19.948 useful to us. 00:07:19.948 --> 00:07:23.788 So we have the literature now, uh, growing, year by year in terms 00:07:23.788 --> 00:07:28.108 of people reporting on, various applications of the different bacteria. 00:07:28.318 --> 00:07:32.232 And, uh, we have the, uh, tool set building up, uh, that we can use. 00:07:33.302 --> 00:07:36.752 Victoria: So, you know, I'm trying to wrap my head a little bit around 00:07:36.752 --> 00:07:39.782 when I, and I know you guys are in the midst of commercializing this. 00:07:40.492 --> 00:07:41.752 What does that look like? 00:07:41.752 --> 00:07:44.572 How do you produce these microbes? 00:07:44.672 --> 00:07:47.852 How do you tailor it to the right solutions? 00:07:47.852 --> 00:07:51.602 Are these big batches, small quantities? 00:07:51.602 --> 00:07:54.662 I mean, I know, I'm assuming you guys have gone beyond the lab, but how 00:07:54.662 --> 00:08:01.142 do you go from lab to environment, um, and really make that impact? 00:08:01.142 --> 00:08:01.532 Right? 00:08:01.622 --> 00:08:03.782 Ray: That's the critical thing, the scale up, which 00:08:03.872 --> 00:08:04.022 Victoria: Yeah. 00:08:04.082 --> 00:08:08.725 Ray: the, the big kahuna in many of these, uh, technologies. 00:08:08.725 --> 00:08:10.915 And that's certainly the case in ours as well. 00:08:11.155 --> 00:08:12.055 Certainly no problem. 00:08:12.055 --> 00:08:15.925 At the benchtop, we, we have very good methods for growing bacteria 00:08:15.955 --> 00:08:20.688 and, Uh, characterizing their various, uh, capabilities, uh, with 00:08:20.688 --> 00:08:22.398 relation to different contaminants. 00:08:22.398 --> 00:08:26.118 So that's comes out of the, uh, bench top, and we can do that quite well. 00:08:26.298 --> 00:08:31.728 But as you say, the challenge comes when you have to go to the environmental scale. 00:08:31.728 --> 00:08:33.645 It's not, bench top that matters anymore. 00:08:33.645 --> 00:08:37.455 It's tens of thousands of gallons of wastewater that are being produced 00:08:37.455 --> 00:08:39.435 every day by a certain industry. 00:08:39.435 --> 00:08:43.055 It's, Hundreds or perhaps thousands of tons of soil that's been 00:08:43.055 --> 00:08:45.492 contaminated by a certain, chemical. 00:08:45.492 --> 00:08:47.142 So the, that's the challenge. 00:08:47.142 --> 00:08:51.855 And so we've been doing, pilot work with a variety of, cooperative, 00:08:52.262 --> 00:08:56.702 industries, one of which has been a, uh, soil remediation company. 00:08:56.852 --> 00:08:58.052 And they brought in soil. 00:08:58.052 --> 00:09:03.062 We worked at their facility in, uh, outside of Newark, Delaware. 00:09:03.062 --> 00:09:03.842 And, uh. 00:09:04.292 --> 00:09:08.612 They would bring in the soil and we would, mix it with our, uh, strains of bacteria. 00:09:08.702 --> 00:09:11.682 And it was mostly petroleum, contaminated soil. 00:09:11.682 --> 00:09:16.422 So we would, we cut our teeth on, these kinds of case studies where we were able 00:09:16.422 --> 00:09:19.552 to, work with large volumes of soil and. 00:09:19.820 --> 00:09:24.140 do a time series of the, uh, effect of treating them with our bacteria. 00:09:24.410 --> 00:09:28.693 So we have, uh, you know, some, now we have some good, documentation of how 00:09:28.693 --> 00:09:33.063 fast the, things like that are and how much better it is than, other methods. 00:09:33.063 --> 00:09:37.233 So the biology, the selling point for the biology has been, it's low cost, 00:09:37.233 --> 00:09:39.460 but a big, drawback has been the time. 00:09:39.635 --> 00:09:43.715 The biological breakdown rates are usually very slow and people wanna, 00:09:43.985 --> 00:09:46.925 uh, get the soil out and get something built and, you know, they don't 00:09:46.925 --> 00:09:48.935 have time to wait for a long time. 00:09:48.935 --> 00:09:53.195 So, uh, with the newer applications that we're developing, we, we've been 00:09:53.195 --> 00:09:57.618 able to speed up that, decontamination process by order of magnitude. 00:09:57.918 --> 00:10:02.628 So going from years to, uh, weeks in terms of cleaning up the soil. 00:10:02.628 --> 00:10:03.258 So, yeah. 00:10:03.448 --> 00:10:04.108 Victoria: So that's huge. 00:10:04.108 --> 00:10:07.343 And in fact, that's probably maybe one of the winning value propositions is just 00:10:07.343 --> 00:10:11.637 being able to speed that up because we know, I mean, As you say, nobody actually 00:10:11.637 --> 00:10:14.427 likes to wait, um, to, to get results. 00:10:14.577 --> 00:10:16.497 We want our results instantly. 00:10:16.747 --> 00:10:22.837 And so time to, you know, time to execute, time to delivery becomes really critical. 00:10:23.187 --> 00:10:26.332 Ray: And the incumbent technology there, uh, that's always. 00:10:26.887 --> 00:10:28.987 One, that battle has been landfills. 00:10:28.987 --> 00:10:33.990 You, you know, cut it and drag it to a landfill, we've been able to equalize 00:10:33.990 --> 00:10:37.680 the rates there because the tipping fees and landfills, particularly for 00:10:37.680 --> 00:10:42.300 the highly contaminated soils and materials, has gone up dramatically 00:10:42.570 --> 00:10:44.580 and will probably continue to do so as, 00:10:44.730 --> 00:10:45.930 Victoria: What does, what does that mean? 00:10:45.930 --> 00:10:47.100 What are tipping fees? 00:10:47.655 --> 00:10:52.335 Ray: When you bring a truck to a landfill and they say, okay, your truck, you have 00:10:52.335 --> 00:10:58.365 got 10 tons of material that's gonna cost you this much to, uh, to, uh, dump it. 00:10:58.365 --> 00:11:01.935 And that tipping fee is dependent on the class of materials. 00:11:01.935 --> 00:11:07.215 So for Class C landfills, which are very restrictive, uh, high, highly 00:11:07.245 --> 00:11:11.265 hazardous material, the land, uh, the tipping fees have gone up drastically. 00:11:11.880 --> 00:11:12.720 Victoria: That makes sense. 00:11:13.020 --> 00:11:16.830 How, what about the whole, regulatory aspect of this? 00:11:16.830 --> 00:11:19.830 'cause I know, you know, I've talked, worked with and talked with a lot 00:11:19.860 --> 00:11:24.840 of leaders that are in startups that are bringing new products to market, 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:30.120 and one of the biggest challenges, of course is getting regulatory approvals. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:33.210 How are you guys tackling and approaching that? 00:11:34.425 --> 00:11:38.968 Ray: Uh, good question because, uh, obviously the environmental engineering 00:11:38.968 --> 00:11:41.338 is a highly regulated area and, uh. 00:11:41.802 --> 00:11:45.462 We got around it in the soil remediation work we did because we 00:11:45.462 --> 00:11:49.842 were working at an existing facility, so they had all of the permits. 00:11:50.382 --> 00:11:51.342 So, yeah. 00:11:51.372 --> 00:11:55.122 But the permitting is an, is an important part of, of this particularly 00:11:55.122 --> 00:11:56.292 working in the environment. 00:11:56.562 --> 00:12:00.232 So it has all of these, uh, activities have to be permitted. 00:12:00.322 --> 00:12:03.782 And, uh, yeah, so we've been working with, companies that have 00:12:03.782 --> 00:12:05.432 handled the permitting for us. 00:12:05.522 --> 00:12:09.060 We do not intend to be a Contractor ourselves. 00:12:09.060 --> 00:12:14.100 We are a, a specialty company that is developing specific tools for 00:12:14.370 --> 00:12:17.940 these, uh, environmental, larger environmental engineering companies. 00:12:18.150 --> 00:12:18.450 Victoria: Got it. 00:12:18.450 --> 00:12:21.300 And so you'll be partnering with them to bring your product to market 00:12:21.510 --> 00:12:22.080 Ray: Yes, 00:12:22.140 --> 00:12:23.430 Victoria: and the solutions to market. 00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:23.940 That's great. 00:12:24.260 --> 00:12:29.613 You know, we talk about, just kind of how Allied Microbiota fits 00:12:29.643 --> 00:12:34.743 into the broader chemical and, um, space and just environmental space. 00:12:35.568 --> 00:12:37.368 How do you see this transforming? 00:12:37.368 --> 00:12:41.148 Where does it fit in as we look at the products that you're bringing to market, 00:12:41.148 --> 00:12:44.748 the technologies you're bringing to market and going, looking forward over 00:12:44.748 --> 00:12:49.008 the next five to 10 years, where does, where do you see, um, this fit and how 00:12:49.008 --> 00:12:51.168 do we bring you guys in to the mix? 00:12:51.168 --> 00:12:51.198 I. 00:12:51.688 --> 00:12:57.667 Ray: Well, uh, lowering the costs for, existing, Procedures like decontaminating, 00:12:57.667 --> 00:13:03.907 soils and sediments, I think we can, uh, provide a more cost effective alternative 00:13:03.907 --> 00:13:06.097 to what's going on, uh, right now. 00:13:06.097 --> 00:13:10.807 So based on, uh, the case studies we've already developed, and then in the new 00:13:10.957 --> 00:13:15.605 and emerging, problems such as the, uh, PFAS we mentioned earlier, We found 00:13:15.605 --> 00:13:20.285 that they really are not the forever chemicals that they were, claimed to be. 00:13:20.285 --> 00:13:24.665 And a lot of that's been repeated quite often in the press, but they're actually 00:13:25.475 --> 00:13:30.105 amenable to breakdown, almost certainly at different, much lower rates than 00:13:30.105 --> 00:13:33.775 other things because the, fluorocarbon bonds are so difficult to break. 00:13:34.075 --> 00:13:36.955 Uh, the fluorocarbon bonds have been something that have been 00:13:37.405 --> 00:13:41.515 almost excluded from biochemistry, and so there are very few. 00:13:43.028 --> 00:13:46.568 Biochemical pathways that can be used to break them down. 00:13:46.568 --> 00:13:51.018 But we found that, uh, we can get, breakdown of the, some of the p 00:13:51.018 --> 00:13:55.788 common PAS, particularly some of the regulated PFAS, uh, PFAS and POA. 00:13:56.178 --> 00:14:00.518 And, uh, we can either, change them chemically into less toxic forms, 00:14:00.518 --> 00:14:05.468 or at least break down the ca carbon carbon bond to break them into smaller 00:14:05.468 --> 00:14:07.748 compounds which are less toxic. 00:14:08.018 --> 00:14:10.868 Victoria: So that, so I came back that, that starts to address 00:14:10.868 --> 00:14:14.018 one of my questions, which is what does this stuff turn into? 00:14:14.378 --> 00:14:14.648 Right? 00:14:14.648 --> 00:14:18.908 So you're remediating it in the soil, um, and going, let's just say let's use 00:14:18.908 --> 00:14:21.938 PFAS as the example from PFAS to what? 00:14:22.028 --> 00:14:22.958 How does that work? 00:14:23.678 --> 00:14:26.588 Ray: Yeah, well we've been doing our homework there with, uh, a lot 00:14:26.588 --> 00:14:30.902 of, Lc mass spec work to actually look what happens when you do that. 00:14:30.902 --> 00:14:34.802 How much of the, not only how much of the product disappears, but how, what 00:14:34.802 --> 00:14:40.375 are the, breakdown products because, uh, you have to worry about forming something 00:14:40.375 --> 00:14:44.125 that's also, toxic in the breakdown pool. 00:14:44.365 --> 00:14:47.045 So we've been looking at that and, uh, it's. 00:14:47.645 --> 00:14:48.425 Heavy sledding. 00:14:48.425 --> 00:14:53.795 It's a lot of an analytical work, but we've identified and been able to mass 00:14:53.795 --> 00:14:58.835 balance a lot of the uh, uh, work we've done in terms of breaking how much 00:14:59.165 --> 00:15:01.805 goes into the various breakdown pools. 00:15:02.255 --> 00:15:05.345 Victoria: What, what role does AI play in any of this, Ray? 00:15:05.345 --> 00:15:08.195 So, you know, I've, I've talked with a lot of different companies, especially 00:15:08.195 --> 00:15:13.205 that are bringing AI solutions to, let's just say product formulations or. 00:15:13.640 --> 00:15:20.000 Figuring out some of this deep scientific work to get from concept to reality. 00:15:20.180 --> 00:15:26.540 How are you guys using digital and ai, in the development of your products? 00:15:27.485 --> 00:15:33.915 Ray: Uh, we've been using machine learning approaches and mainly for, Prospecting 00:15:33.915 --> 00:15:36.748 for, capabilities in the bacteria. 00:15:37.018 --> 00:15:40.658 Obviously there's millions and millions of different bacteria. 00:15:40.898 --> 00:15:42.548 So where would you go looking? 00:15:42.608 --> 00:15:45.665 We call it bio prospecting for new, things. 00:15:45.665 --> 00:15:50.745 And we've been, using machine learning to help us with that, mostly from the, uh, 00:15:50.805 --> 00:15:53.565 genetics and bioinformatics end of things. 00:15:54.128 --> 00:15:55.148 Victoria: Yeah, that makes sense. 00:15:55.153 --> 00:15:58.208 And that, and that's probably the right place to start, right, is uh, letting 00:15:58.208 --> 00:16:02.318 get shortcut some of that work, um, that you would otherwise have to do. 00:16:03.383 --> 00:16:06.533 Ray: but I think we're certainly just at the tip of the iceberg with that. 00:16:06.533 --> 00:16:08.783 I think there'll be a lot more we can do. 00:16:09.613 --> 00:16:09.903 Victoria: Yeah. 00:16:10.337 --> 00:16:12.707 So, you know, we've talked a bit about your products. 00:16:12.707 --> 00:16:14.897 We've talked about what the solution is. 00:16:14.897 --> 00:16:17.417 Where do you guys fit in the industrial value chain? 00:16:17.417 --> 00:16:19.157 I think that's always this concept. 00:16:19.157 --> 00:16:22.937 And you know, I think about here on the Chemical Show and we talk with 00:16:23.087 --> 00:16:25.217 leaders across the value chain. 00:16:25.817 --> 00:16:27.617 Where are you fitting into the value chain? 00:16:28.545 --> 00:16:32.505 Ray: Yeah, so the idea is to go beyond the bioremediation. 00:16:32.505 --> 00:16:34.395 And Bioremediation has been an afterthought. 00:16:34.395 --> 00:16:37.485 I mean, we've made a mess and now we have to go clean it up. 00:16:37.785 --> 00:16:40.065 Well, okay, so hopefully we'll clean it. 00:16:40.215 --> 00:16:40.875 It all up. 00:16:41.115 --> 00:16:45.015 At that point we'll have, we can focus where we should be focused, which is 00:16:45.015 --> 00:16:50.985 internalizing the remediation process within the walls of the industry so 00:16:50.985 --> 00:16:53.745 that you're really having no impact now. 00:16:53.745 --> 00:16:58.095 So there there won't be any future messes to clean up because we'll handle it. 00:16:58.635 --> 00:17:01.018 Inside , the process itself. 00:17:01.078 --> 00:17:03.118 And so we're getting into that. 00:17:03.148 --> 00:17:07.078 Uh, I'd say the wastewater, uh, industrial wastewater pretreatment 00:17:07.168 --> 00:17:10.348 is, already a, a fairly, uh, mature. 00:17:10.565 --> 00:17:14.945 Engineering area and, uh, where people are recognizing that they're 00:17:15.035 --> 00:17:18.095 going to build these solutions directly into their process. 00:17:18.095 --> 00:17:19.445 It's not gonna be an afterthought. 00:17:19.745 --> 00:17:23.158 They're going to, treat the material, inside the building. 00:17:23.848 --> 00:17:25.348 And so that's, yeah. 00:17:25.393 --> 00:17:26.263 Victoria: So that's interesting. 00:17:26.263 --> 00:17:30.463 I mean, that's absolutely true in the production process of chemicals, right? 00:17:30.823 --> 00:17:36.193 Um, when I think about P-F-A-S-P Fs, the PFAS issue is not a production issue. 00:17:36.193 --> 00:17:39.913 It's a usage issue because obviously it's been used like in firefighting 00:17:39.913 --> 00:17:46.783 foams, for instance, where it was the wonder chemical for a while, right? 00:17:46.843 --> 00:17:47.198 Um, and. 00:17:48.163 --> 00:17:50.833 Inside the four walls of the manufacturing plant. 00:17:50.893 --> 00:17:54.583 You know, presumably some of that was done, but it's getting 00:17:54.583 --> 00:17:56.113 out into the broader world. 00:17:56.113 --> 00:18:00.073 So it's, so I guess it's kind of a combination that you treat it on the front 00:18:00.073 --> 00:18:03.493 end during the manufacturing process, and that you're ready to treat it on 00:18:03.493 --> 00:18:06.553 the back end in the after use process. 00:18:07.033 --> 00:18:07.603 Ray: Yes. 00:18:07.633 --> 00:18:08.173 Yes. 00:18:08.263 --> 00:18:12.970 And so there's, uh, you know, the fulfilling the regulatory, 00:18:13.137 --> 00:18:18.477 Responsibilities is one thing, and uh, particularly as the regulatory 00:18:18.477 --> 00:18:22.872 limits become lower and lower, then it becomes, uh, a bigger and bi, 00:18:23.072 --> 00:18:24.747 a bigger and bigger marketplace. 00:18:25.527 --> 00:18:29.277 So, and, and trying to keep the cost low and trying to do it as 00:18:29.277 --> 00:18:31.947 cost effectively as as we can. 00:18:32.323 --> 00:18:36.043 And that, and that brings us to another area, w hich is not just 00:18:36.073 --> 00:18:42.110 removing the contaminant, but turning the contaminant into , another, 00:18:42.360 --> 00:18:43.860 commercially valuable product. 00:18:44.100 --> 00:18:46.830 Now that's been done in a, a lot of areas. 00:18:46.830 --> 00:18:50.770 I mean, biogas has been made from agricultural feedlots and, 00:18:50.770 --> 00:18:52.210 and things for quite some time. 00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:54.948 So, certainly not the first ones to think of, turning. 00:18:55.683 --> 00:18:58.173 Waste products into, uh, a commodity. 00:18:58.173 --> 00:19:02.957 So, but you can, help still more with some of these industrial processes. 00:19:02.987 --> 00:19:06.707 You can, uh, if we can get a cost effective way to treat the waste and 00:19:06.707 --> 00:19:12.400 then def, defer some of the, uh, cost by producing a product, then you've got, 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.640 uh, you know, you've make it, you've made it more cost effective still. 00:19:16.737 --> 00:19:20.427 Victoria: I mean, across the industry, this is what happens, right? 00:19:20.427 --> 00:19:24.657 So we, we keep repurposing waste streams and figuring out how to create 00:19:24.657 --> 00:19:28.557 something good with it that people want and companies and, and businesses 00:19:28.617 --> 00:19:30.837 want and need to use, um, et cetera. 00:19:30.837 --> 00:19:34.117 And so that's always, I guess as part of the continual life 00:19:34.117 --> 00:19:35.677 cycle of the value chain. 00:19:36.592 --> 00:19:37.072 Ray: Yeah. 00:19:37.192 --> 00:19:40.222 I mean, that's how biology, that's how ecology works. 00:19:40.222 --> 00:19:43.192 That's how the world works that I spent many years in. 00:19:43.552 --> 00:19:48.772 And, uh, we need to apply some of this, uh, maybe perhaps in, uh, something called 00:19:48.772 --> 00:19:53.992 industrial ecology of, you know, finding closed loops for some of these substances. 00:19:54.254 --> 00:19:55.664 Victoria: Yeah, I think that's interesting. 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.154 so you've obviously, you've been at this for a while. 00:19:59.600 --> 00:20:04.940 How, when, you know, when did you guys really get started on, allied Microbiota 00:20:04.970 --> 00:20:07.370 and then where, what's next for you? 00:20:07.370 --> 00:20:08.300 Where are you guys going next? 00:20:09.380 --> 00:20:13.460 Ray: Well been doing this for quite some time now, probably about 15 years if 00:20:13.460 --> 00:20:15.320 you count the years in the university. 00:20:15.620 --> 00:20:20.130 But then, uh, stepped out of the university with some IP from, uh, from 00:20:20.130 --> 00:20:25.350 the university and, uh, in earnest doing it probably since about, 2020. 00:20:25.840 --> 00:20:27.145 Victoria: Okay, so five years in. 00:20:27.565 --> 00:20:33.700 Um, and I know from talking to a lot of founders, there is no such 00:20:33.700 --> 00:20:35.320 thing as overnight success, right? 00:20:35.320 --> 00:20:37.570 It is, uh, it's a journey. 00:20:37.870 --> 00:20:38.680 Um, it's a journey. 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:41.200 What are you looking to do, you know, what's your goals? 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:41.800 What do we see? 00:20:41.830 --> 00:20:48.250 What should we be looking for from, allied Microbiota over the next 18 to 24 months? 00:20:49.204 --> 00:20:52.234 Ray: We're, uh, starting to get some traction in a couple of areas. 00:20:52.534 --> 00:20:57.724 Uh, so soil is, uh, a big one and, uh, it's a, it's a huge market 00:20:57.844 --> 00:21:02.044 and so even a small percentage of that is, uh, is a big cash flow. 00:21:02.434 --> 00:21:05.567 So, uh, and then the wastewater treatment, both in the industrial 00:21:05.567 --> 00:21:07.397 side and the municipal side too. 00:21:07.847 --> 00:21:08.267 We have. 00:21:08.492 --> 00:21:12.702 Solutions, not just in the, uh, contaminant world, but also in the, 00:21:12.932 --> 00:21:17.942 domestic sewage world of doing some of the nitrogen and nutrient removal a little 00:21:17.942 --> 00:21:20.972 bit more effectively than it's been done. 00:21:21.257 --> 00:21:21.857 Victoria: makes sense. 00:21:22.037 --> 00:21:25.247 And you'll, um, and you guys are working on partners to help take 00:21:25.247 --> 00:21:28.262 that, your technology to continue developing it and take it to market. 00:21:29.132 --> 00:21:29.552 Ray: Yes. 00:21:29.612 --> 00:21:33.515 And parallel, because, uh, again, we're not the, Main contractor we're going to 00:21:33.515 --> 00:21:37.775 be working with, uh, larger companies and, and established engineering 00:21:37.775 --> 00:21:43.598 companies to, help them provide, uh, more bang for their client's buck 00:21:43.628 --> 00:21:47.828 when, uh, you know, on, on the various things that they, uh, are charged with. 00:21:48.053 --> 00:21:48.383 Victoria: Yeah. 00:21:48.563 --> 00:21:52.523 So Ray, as you started this, I always like to talk leadership with, my guests 00:21:52.523 --> 00:21:55.343 because, you know, it's al it's a journey. 00:21:55.493 --> 00:21:57.653 So this has been a big journey for you. 00:21:57.653 --> 00:22:02.393 What's maybe been the biggest surprise as you've moved out of academia, 00:22:02.393 --> 00:22:04.133 taking the work that you've done? 00:22:04.133 --> 00:22:07.613 Obviously with the environment, with companies, and I know that you've prob 00:22:07.613 --> 00:22:10.883 done a lot of research partnerships with people and then actually 00:22:10.883 --> 00:22:13.573 taking it into, an enterprise to. 00:22:14.043 --> 00:22:15.813 Scale up and commercialize it. 00:22:15.813 --> 00:22:17.493 What's been the biggest surprises for you? 00:22:18.416 --> 00:22:18.636 Ray: Wow. 00:22:18.881 --> 00:22:21.191 I don't know where to start with that, I guess. 00:22:21.401 --> 00:22:24.831 I wouldn't call it surprises so much as I knew there'd be issues. 00:22:24.831 --> 00:22:30.041 But how really challenging it is, you know, there's, in the academic world you 00:22:30.041 --> 00:22:31.871 have ideas, people get excited about them. 00:22:31.871 --> 00:22:38.261 You can start to do a, uh, a seminar series and, and, uh, put together, uh, a 00:22:38.261 --> 00:22:41.221 publication and things and there you go. 00:22:41.281 --> 00:22:42.181 That's the product. 00:22:42.481 --> 00:22:44.941 In the industrial world, of course, it's much. 00:22:45.203 --> 00:22:50.110 good idea is great, but you still have to, get people to buy off on that. 00:22:50.170 --> 00:22:53.920 And, uh, there's good reasons not to change the way you're 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:55.420 doing something if it's working. 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.060 You know, there's the, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 00:22:58.115 --> 00:23:03.755 attitude toward, new technology and, and in the world of, uh, remediation, 00:23:03.965 --> 00:23:05.675 since it's not typically, uh. 00:23:06.517 --> 00:23:09.637 The key part of an, the industrial process. 00:23:09.637 --> 00:23:12.247 For most con companies, it's kind of an afterthought. 00:23:12.727 --> 00:23:16.967 So, convincing people that, these kinds of approaches, not just cost 00:23:16.967 --> 00:23:22.167 effective, but are going to lead to, uh, a better, simplified process for them. 00:23:22.527 --> 00:23:25.407 You know, it's a, it's a, it's a process. 00:23:25.407 --> 00:23:28.647 It's a road and, uh, it's, it's not a simple one. 00:23:28.962 --> 00:23:30.192 Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. 00:23:30.462 --> 00:23:32.232 Um, awesome. 00:23:32.322 --> 00:23:36.252 So what else should we, um, what else do you want people to know about what 00:23:36.252 --> 00:23:38.262 you're doing and what Allied is doing? 00:23:39.207 --> 00:23:42.867 Ray: Uh, we're getting better as the tools get better and as the, 00:23:42.867 --> 00:23:48.493 uh, particularly as I think it will, the regulations, uh, continue to, 00:23:48.658 --> 00:23:50.968 Increase the market, uh, we're here. 00:23:50.968 --> 00:23:55.198 And, uh, I think you'll see a lot more of these kinds of, solutions, 00:23:55.198 --> 00:23:56.848 biologically based solutions. 00:23:56.848 --> 00:23:58.888 They're not, uh, the only one in town. 00:23:58.888 --> 00:24:01.948 Certainly there's chemistry and physics and other things that happened, but, 00:24:01.948 --> 00:24:07.288 uh, biology is certainly ready and it's been underutilized in the past. 00:24:07.288 --> 00:24:11.338 And, uh, I think you'll see it come on quite strong in the next five or 10 years. 00:24:12.673 --> 00:24:13.123 Victoria: Awesome. 00:24:13.213 --> 00:24:14.023 I think so as well. 00:24:14.023 --> 00:24:18.583 Well, Ray, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your story and 00:24:18.583 --> 00:24:20.623 the story about Allied Microbiota. 00:24:21.422 --> 00:24:22.532 Ray: Thank you, Victoria. 00:24:22.592 --> 00:24:23.582 Good speaking with you. 00:24:23.927 --> 00:24:25.817 Victoria: Yeah, and thank you everyone for joining us today. 00:24:25.817 --> 00:24:28.397 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will 00:24:28.397 --> 00:24:29.862 talk with you again soon.