[00:00:30] Phil Gamache: What's up everyone. Today's our last episode of the year. And if you. You've paid attention to the intro. [00:01:04] Welcoming a New Co-Host and Celebrating Baby Milestones --- [00:01:04] Phil Gamache: I'm excited to officially welcome Darryl Alfonso as the newest co host of the podcast. Darryl, I love the new camera. I appreciate you taking a bit of time away from the little one, getting all of this set up and tying a bow in the season with me. [00:01:18] Thanks for being here. [00:01:19] Darrell Alfonso: Yeah. Excited to be here. Excited to help host the Humans of Martech podcast. Um, yeah, you and I had a, what's the story? One of the, one of the, um, I remember you said you were going solo. for the podcast and one of my mentees, someone that I mentor regularly, reached out to me and said, Hey, you should help and co host them. [00:01:46] You've been to our tech podcast. And I'm like, that's a great idea. Um, [00:01:51] ​ [00:01:51] Darrell Alfonso: [00:02:00] [00:03:00] as you know, and as, as the listeners know, you know, this is, this is my. My favorite, uh, you know, I was an early listener for the Humans of Martek podcast. It's my favorite one. And, um, um, I love like the, the authenticity. I love the guests. [00:03:47] I love how nerdy and geeky it is. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, um, unfiltered and, and, um, um, I've been on it as well. So, so it's, it's, it's been great. So thanks for, thanks for [00:04:00] having me. I'm excited to, on, on what we're going to do next year. And yeah, on the personal side, my wife and I just welcomed a healthy baby boy. [00:04:11] His name is [00:04:11] Phil Gamache: huge congrats. [00:04:13] Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, eight weeks ago. So, um, it's been tough. That's, that's the last time. That's the last time I got real, real, any real sleep was eight weeks ago. So, so that's, uh, um, um, it's good, but I'm excited. I'm excited. I've, um, You know, like Phil mentioned, he's been helping me upgrade my setup here. [00:04:33] So I have a, you know, an official YouTuber type set up with the, with the fancy camera and the light. And I think it is just going to keep getting better. So, yeah. Thanks for having me, Phil. This is going to be good. [00:04:44] Phil Gamache: Yeah, all the listeners who, uh, want an upgrade on their, their video set up, I'm, uh, offering a course on how to, I just kidding, not doing that. It's uh, maybe one day we'll, we'll share out like all the different things. So I have it up in the, in [00:05:00] a spreadsheet already for you. So if folks are curious though. [00:05:03] The tech that allowed us to just like level this up a little bit. We, we can share that out, but you were just at mobs of blues a couple of weeks ago, right? Like you shared on LinkedIn the, uh, same day, driving down, doing the keynote and then going back home, helping with feeding, how, how is he sleeping now? [00:05:20] Are you like, is it, is that getting a little bit better? [00:05:24] Darrell Alfonso: You know, um, there. It was getting better. And then I think it's, it's one of those two steps forward, one step back kind of things. And um, I was talking to Mike Rizzo earlier and he was, he was telling me about these like different developmental stages. And yeah, so you probably know those. And once, once they hit a different milestone, it kind of like reverts back a little bit to where, you know, he's more fussy. [00:05:49] He's, he's more cranky. Doesn't sleep as well. So that was, I think a little, a bit of a blow to my wife and I, cause we thought we were getting things in order. [00:06:00] We're like, we're, we're productive people. And like, like, um, ambitious people were like, we're going to get them to sleep through the night. And, um, um, that did not happen last night. [00:06:09] I will tell you that for sure. But, but you know what? It's a wonderful [00:06:12] Phil Gamache: regressions. Like it depends on the leaps, right? Like there's like leaps developmental leaps where [00:06:18] Darrell Alfonso: That's it. It's [00:06:18] Phil Gamache: they learn, like they're just covering the world. Right. And like, there's little things and new development stuff that happens and there's just going to be regressions on sleep, but it does, it does get better. [00:06:29] The first three months are really tough. I know Scott breaker is telling you about the Palooza that there's another like tough part when you send them to daycare and then they get sick. Sick, but you, you can look forward to that in a year [00:06:41] Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, that's the part you're in right now, right? Your daughter's getting sick all the time. It makes you sick. [00:06:48] Phil Gamache: We're recording this at the end of November, going into flu season in December, and thankfully like the transition to daycare has been really, really easy for a lot of folks. It's a, it is a tough, uh, [00:07:00] separation period, but it was super smooth for us. But yeah, she, she's gotten sick a couple of times. [00:07:06] My wife's a former kindergarten teacher. So her immune system is like mind blowingly strong. She hasn't caught all of them. So she's able to pick up the slack here and there. But, uh, I, I still say that the first three months of like lack of sleep and running on sometimes like no more than an hour or two hours of straight sleep. [00:07:25] It's crazy what that does to the human body. [00:07:29] Darrell Alfonso: Actually, I'm part of like a virtual support group through this app called Maven. And I don't go all the time, but basically you show up virtually and and a nurse guides you through like You know, best practices and everyone just shares. And from what, from that, I learned that number one, everyone's baby is different and fussy in their own way. [00:07:54] And then number two, whenever we made progress, the nurse would humble me really [00:08:00] quickly and said, that's working for this week, you know? And, and it just, it's just so true. And like the first, you know, I think, I think I've, I've been, I've been doing this practice of like acceptance because at, for the first 12 weeks, like you said, it's really kind of survival mode. [00:08:18] And things are just changing and, you know, it's honestly, it's like two steps back or two steps forward, three steps back sometimes, you know, and, and I think just, just, you know, as a first time parent learning to accept that I think has been, has been a challenge, but also like. You know, good for me, you know what I mean? [00:08:38] It's like, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a deep philosophical thing, I think that I've never had to experience before, but, um, now I have, and, uh, it's, it's good. It's that way we're, we're, we're making it through. We're making it through. We're almost there. We're all, we're, we're through two months. [00:08:54] Phil Gamache: for all the obstacles and like the, the tough parts, I still feel that like the, the [00:09:00] good parts just completely outweigh, like some of the tough things, like a lot of people say, like, you will forget how tough it was because like, you're just like, It's a lot of people have like multiple kids, right? [00:09:10] And you're just like, how did you do this multiple times? But I actually read once that the human body is programmed to forget Some of the early stages of birth is specifically and like it's the only reason that like the women especially go through this another time because You forget, you don't remember a lot of those things and myself included, like we're chatting about maybe having a second. [00:09:33] And I'm just like, if you would have asked me that last year, like, what would I've had a different sense? Because you don't, you don't remember as many of those things, but for all the folks listening, we're just like. You know, they don't have kids yet. Obviously it's not as it's not only obstacles, right? [00:09:48] Like my wife and I tried for, uh, more than a year. Like there was a lot of bad moments and like deception and disappointment. And we really wanted a kid and it [00:10:00] wasn't as easy as a lot of folks, you know, as story is to, to have a kid. So I like to remind folks, you know, cause a lot of folks listening, maybe [00:10:08] Darrell Alfonso: That's true. [00:10:09] Phil Gamache: have that ability. [00:10:10] Maybe they tried, they weren't able to. So, you know, it's, it's, we're appreciative of like the tough parts and the good parts. And so, yeah, wanted to, to, to coin that, that, that part of the conversation there. But, uh, let's, let's talk. Dive into some of the topics here. So, um, yeah, a little, little intro there for, for the folks. [00:10:30] But like I said, you just had a chance to dive into, um, your talk at Mopsapalooza. Uh, I watched remotely. I'm excited to go in person next year. Uh, Mike's been trying to [00:10:41] Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, I hope so. [00:10:42] Phil Gamache: a couple of years now, but we'll, we'll get to meet in [00:10:45] Darrell Alfonso: can see how tall you are. [00:10:48] Phil Gamache: Definitely. Uh, won't be one of the tallest heads, uh, at [00:10:51] Darrell Alfonso: No, no, no, no. I'm shorter in real life. Yeah, for sure. [00:10:55] Darrell's MOPs predictions for the next 5 years --- [00:10:55] Phil Gamache: So, uh, your nine predictions for the next five years [00:11:00] of marketing ops, uh, I read your kind of teaser to, um, the keynote that you did also. [00:11:05] So I wanted to use, uh, the time that we have from this episode, uh, not just to chat about babies and, uh, first time dads, um, but you did a talk at Mopsapalooza. Like I just said about, uh, predictions that you have for the next five years of marketing operations. Uh, there's two in there and they're actually the two first ones That, um, maybe we can spend the next 20 ish minutes or so unpacking and, and having a bit of a longer conversation about, um, the first one is in five years, most marketing automation tools will not have databases. [00:11:37] And the second one was that 75 percent of executional work will be accomplished through Jenny and visual workflow builders. So maybe you can start by unpacking that first one and saying that one in your own words. [00:11:49] Darrell Alfonso: yeah! And um, no, I'd love to hear, like, if you have countertakes too, you know. These are predictions, and, you know, one of the things that I mention in my talk is that I [00:12:00] really encourage everyone, especially if you're really um, um, if you, if you're, if you're, And, and enthusiastic about your profession to make predictions because, um, it's not really that whether they come true or not, it's the, the, what I found is it's the process of critical thinking that helps you. [00:12:21] Um, um, number one, I, I think that this is how you kind of look around corners. Um, but, but in order to make predictions, you have to look around corners. at historical events and what's happening and also look at current trends and you kind of marry those together and it gives you an idea of like what could happen in the future. [00:12:41] So, so it's not so much what the predictions are. I don't know where I read this, but it's not so much what the prediction are, but it's the act of making predictions that, that is really valuable. [00:12:49] Marketing tools will not have databases in 5 years --- [00:12:49] Darrell Alfonso: Um, so my first one, Is that, uh, and we've, we've talked about this before. It's that the technology or, or technology platforms of the future [00:13:00] will not have databases. [00:13:02] And, um, a lot of people can, might, might be surprised by that. Like, what does that mean? Because all tools have a data, a marketing automation platform has a database. A CRM has a database. CDPs have a database. They're literally mostly just databases. Like most tools are, are relational databases. So, so it can be shocking. [00:13:20] And it was funny when I, when you and I were talking about this, when I, when I posted this prediction, people were like, what does that mean? And, um, uh, essentially it means, uh, a data warehouse. or warehouse native approach. Also, also kind of being called zero copy data architecture, um, um, approach or strategy is going to be the sort of, of, of default set up in the future. [00:13:48] And, um, what, one of the things that like, I think the reason why this is so surprising to people is we haven't known anything different. [00:14:00] And, um, in my talk, I go over this example of. Hey, when you are on Yelp or when you are on Google places or something like that, and you want to share a restaurant with your friend, What do you do? [00:14:14] Right? You just click and the app accesses your contacts and sends the sends the link to the to your restaurant, right? It doesn't make a copy of your entire database and try to keep it up to date all the time. And if you think about it, Our entire tech stack is literally just making copies of some sort of contact database and then updating it all the time. [00:14:39] And I have this theory that probably 80 percent or more of data work that you have to do with your, your technology stack is literally combating this problem of, Hey, is the data the same over here as over here? And then, you know, we can go down rabbit holes of, you know, if you, if you think about bi directional [00:15:00] sync and I've, I've done this personally. [00:15:01] There's this, sometimes you have these infinite loops of updating one system, updates it, then another system fixes it. Then the system, the other system fixes it and you have this loop. So. I think that it was so eye opening for me to just realize how incredibly cumbersome and inefficient that it has been that we've all been doing this, um, um, our, our entire careers of dealing with this data problem of, of copied data. [00:15:26] Um, but yeah, I'd love to hear your take, Phil, if, if you think that that's the case, I think you, you agree with me. [00:15:31] Preparing for a Warehouse Native Future --- [00:15:31] Phil Gamache: Yeah. I, I, I don't think that like, this is going to replace APIs completely, but there is an element to this from an API perspective, like different tools talking to each other and passing data from one to the other that is going to be replaced from this. Like, I think this is my favorite prediction that you have in this stack. [00:15:50] Like we're starting off with a bit of a bang here. I think this is inevitable. The question is only. When is this going to happen? Like back in 2023, um, a couple [00:16:00] of years ago, this is an area that I researched heavily. Like I discovered this through some of the CDP research that I was doing at the in house company that I was working at. [00:16:08] And I had a ton of experts on the show, unpack like package versus composable CDP, and it opened up this whole world of. The warehouse native zero copy data architecture that the composable CDPs were navigating a bit more towards, right? Like folks from the vendor side were, uh, kind of like arguing against warehouse native, but we had folks building warehouse native tool on the show, like message gears and castle. [00:16:34] io. Like we're not talking about future. Tech that doesn't exist yet. Like there are vendors today that are already doing this and they've struggled over the last couple of years, just getting the industry to catch up to it. Like talking about no database and like, we don't charge you per number of records that you have in the system. [00:16:55] Like it's foreign to a lot of people that are just like used to that, like [00:17:00] billing model. Right. And so there's like a change management process that these companies have had to go to a through, but yeah, it's a, so there's, The, I think it's eight episode 89 that I did a journalistic style, kind of round up on this, like warehouse native mode. [00:17:15] And the thesis at the end of it was that, um, we're navigating this like potential transformation of MarTech and how. Bartik vendors are building on top of the warehouse and what it kind of like came out with a lot of conversations is this idea that the thing that you can do today to prepare for that future, isn't like shopping and thinking about like new tools that are doing this, it's focusing on how you're doing this internally, like high quality, well structured data. [00:17:46] Is the key to unlock any of these advancements. So, um, yeah, they usually like all the AI episodes, all the like warehouse package CDP, like the thesis is always, it only matters as much as how good your data is. But, [00:18:00] um, that's the point that makes me wonder like how long. This is going to take like, is it going to be longer than five years? [00:18:06] Because how many companies are really immature when it comes to their data strategy or how well they're set up there? But yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be fun to see how this kind of evolves. [00:18:17] ​ [00:18:17] Phil Gamache: [00:19:00] [00:20:00] Yeah. [00:20:09] Understanding When Warehouse Native Tools Matter --- [00:20:09] Darrell Alfonso: are companies that are doing this already. And the, I think that where this really comes into play is when you have large volumes of data. So if you're a company that doesn't have that, this actually isn't super relevant, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's the interesting thing, you know, and, and, and that's a whole nother conversation, but, but I, I, I came to this conclusion that, that, um, small and medium sized Martech, business Martech and enterprise Martech are completely different. [00:20:41] Um, um, they're completely different jobs and, and marketing operations at those companies are also completely different jobs. So it's very interesting to think if, if, if you're, if you're a company with like 500 people or less, you really can get away with, with the classic setup of like your [00:21:00] CRM, your map, and you know, whatever types of tools you want to connect to those, to those, and it worked perfectly fine. [00:21:07] You know, and, and that's, that's how I had a setup when I was, um, leading marketing ops at a 500 person organization. Um, but at my last two companies, uh, they're very, very large, you know, 10, 000 person plus, it just doesn't work. Things just start to break. And, and so you have to, there's this sort of imperative to figure out a new data strategy. [00:21:29] And, um, that I think once people start to see that, that, that, uh, D that data pipeline start to break down when you try to just copy data all the time. It becomes very this. It becomes very apparent that a zero copy data architecture or warehouse native is the way because it's so elegant, you know, why do you have to keep on copying data and updating it all the time? [00:21:56] Like it doesn't. But I will say that if you [00:22:00] don't have a big volume of data and you don't have a big customer base, a lot of this stuff, you know, it probably doesn't matter to you. But but once you hit that threshold, It makes all the difference. So I'm, I'm, I'm really excited about it. And I think that companies or, or tech vendors that aren't seeing this, I think that they are actually turning a blind eye. [00:22:20] I think they're intentionally not trying to do this. I think Salesforce, for example, is starting it. I think they're, they're the ones that are trying, trying to promote this idea of zero copy. Um, data architecture, um, um, you know, with, with, with some of my like research and, and, and, and seeing of the demonstrations of their products. [00:22:38] It's not a 100 percent zero copy, though. I think they are calling it that it's more of like a CDP that you can just kind of look into. Um, but, but yeah, I'm really fascinated and really excited to see where it goes. Um, cause I, I do think it is going to be the way of the future. [00:22:53] Phil Gamache: Yeah. I'm pumped for next season to have your enterprise background, balance out my [00:23:00] startup experience because, uh, yeah, I come from a world where, you know, it is a lot more nimble and if you break a little something, it's doesn't have the ramifications that it does when you have a 10, 000 plus person company. [00:23:15] Um, but yeah, let's go to your second prediction. [00:23:17] The Democratization of ML Pipelines and the Need for Human Oversight[00:23:17] 75% of work will be done with GenAI and visual workflows --- [00:23:17] Phil Gamache: So you've got 75 percent of executional work will be a company will be accomplished through Jenny eye and visual workflow builders. Um, I personally think that we're somewhere at like 25 percent of that, maybe for some companies, enterprise teams with big data science teams, um, they are probably already pushing the boundaries on that, on that percentage number. [00:23:39] The question isn't tech there for me, it's like the former prediction that we just unpacked. Are people ready for that in the next five years? Like are most companies ready for that? Um, actually just unpacked some of the available tech. With, uh, Steven Stouffer from Trey a few weeks ago in episode 148, um, that dropped two weeks ago, uh, by the time this one comes [00:24:00] out, what's exciting is that like for half a decade. [00:24:03] And you can tell me if you agree here, but like enterprise teams have been backed by data science resources. And a lot of this enablement has been because of the advancements in those teams, enabling marketers. But. The excitement that I have is that going forward, we have tools that are democratizing like ML pipelines and journey orchestration, not just for big enterprise teams with like data scientists on, on, as like a resource there. [00:24:31] So for me, the question is always going to be like the historical data element to this, like big enterprise teams have a ton of data. Like when I was at WordPress, we were working with like 15 plus years of like Billions of data points. And so feeding these models data was like a lot different than a small startup. [00:24:52] And typically for enterprise or older companies, you needed historical data to have accurate prediction engines. But new [00:25:00] tools have found a way to create shared pools of data as a replacement for this. If you're a startup, that's only like two years old or whatever. So you're not building off of only six months or 12 months of data from your 2000 users and your startup. [00:25:12] You're building off of a vendor shared pool of data across hundreds of other similar companies in the same industry. So it's still not as like 10 year old company, but. Like you said, 75%, because, uh, one thing that came out of all of the doomsday episode that we did on what's like stopping AI from replacing marketers is this idea that we still need a human in the loop, like for now, and probably for the next five years, humans still have the edge when it comes to the business context. [00:25:44] The ethics, the human emotional capabilities compared to Jenny. I just like completely taken this over from folks. One of my favorite takeaways from an episode I did with action IQ is to Mark Roosberg and episode 88. She introduced me to the term, like they call it human [00:26:00] in the loop, basically the need for ongoing dialogue between the AI and the marketer to make sure that. [00:26:06] Like all this AI generated content aligns with your brand's unique voice and message preventing like homogenized marketplace where every brand sounds the same. Um, but yeah, we'd love for you to unpack that one a bit more. [00:26:19] How GenAI and Visual Workflows Will Reshape Marketing --- [00:26:19] Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, there's a ton. I feel, and you know what, a lot of these predictions kind of tie together. [00:26:24] Phil Gamache: Yeah. Yeah, that's [00:26:25] Darrell Alfonso: You know, they, they do, they, they kind of tie together. And, um, I, I, I, I hear your point around, you know, there should be a human still in there, I think there, there will be, there's also, you know, and I mentioned this when, when on my episode of the humans of MarTech podcast, their technology companies are more of like in a bubble and much more forward thinking than the rest of like the different industries. [00:26:50] And there are still. You know, companies and marketing teams that do it, do everything just straight HTML. Uh, and [00:27:00] I was a few years ago, I was a part of a team like that. Like there, the tools today are really at a stage where you do not need to do HTML from scratch. And I would argue you shouldn't. But people still do so like, like, so even if AI brings us several steps ahead, you're still going to have the people like, you know, like the, like I was listening to a podcast, the yellow pages are still a thing. [00:27:22] Like the phone book still exists. Some people still use it. So it's just, it's just, it's really interesting. So I think that when it comes to the prediction of, Hey, 75 percent of our work is going to be. Gen AI and visual workflows. It's really interesting to think about MarTech work and marketing operations work as broken down into these two big buckets. [00:27:41] One is like manual configuration of the tools, right? And, and you're just going through and changing all these settings. And then another is like essentially like data analysis. So you, so you, so you've broken those up too. So, so with the manual configuration of the tools. You know, especially now I've been [00:28:00] experimenting with, with, with some different tools, but there are tools that you have a visual canvas where you can just connect the tools together, um, without actually doing the manual configuration, you can just lay it out visually on a canvas. [00:28:13] I don't know if you saw the post that I did earlier, but there's a tool that I had called default and it literally helps you do Martech orchestration, multi tool orchestration. orchestration on one canvas. So, so that's the visual workflow. And then when you think about, Hey, I need to look at my data to see, to understand which customers I want to target, which segments are performing better, how my campaigns are performing, and which, you know, um, where, which, which campaigns are my winners and losers. [00:28:41] That is data analysis. And in the future, more and more, it's going to be, we're going to migrate over to Gen AI, which essentially means typing and asking these questions of our database. Right. We're, we're almost [00:29:00] doing it already. Like you can kind of see where, you know, B2B follows B2C, but we're doing it already where we're using, you know, when we have questions about our, our, our, our, our own lives, we're asking like chat, GBT perplexity, Google, right. [00:29:17] We're, we're asking those questions. Like, what should we do? And that I think, you know, I think many people, um, Paul Wilson included, uh, are predicting that that's how we're going to interact with our databases just through questions. Um, so I, I'm, I'm really excited about that one. I think that we're already moving in that direction. [00:29:36] Um, um, and I think to be honest, 75 percent might be a conservative number. Of, of how much we're going to do, how much work, how much we're going to, uh, is going to change over to, to AI based and visual based workflows. [00:29:48] Embracing the Shift in Marketing Operations Roles --- [00:29:48] Phil Gamache: Yeah, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll see how many of us need to update our LinkedIn's and, and remove marketing ops out of that and put critical, critical prompt thinkers. I think is what some, some folks are [00:30:00] calling this, but yeah, there's, there's a bunch of other predictions there. Maybe we'll do like a part two of this episode to, to uncover some of these other ones, there's like. [00:30:08] A bunch that you made on like a measurement and MMM versus MTA. Um, maybe, maybe I'll have you jump in on that one because like we're, uh, we're doing like a roundup, this has been a theme that I dived into that the end of this year with a, with a lot of different folks, but yeah, Daryl, I'm pumped to, to, to collaborate with you this year. [00:30:26] Um, we'll have you on in a bunch of different episodes that we've got coming up. RIP your calendar already. I know I've been adding you to a lot of, uh, interviews there, but appreciate you, uh, hanging with me so far. Now you gotta jump back and, uh, chow at the, uh, take care of the little one. But, uh, yeah, I'm excited, man. [00:30:42] Thanks. Uh, thanks for agreeing to help out. [00:30:45] Darrell Alfonso: Yeah. I'm excited. It's going to be a good year. It's going to be a good year. It's going to be like a year different than any other for the humans of MarTech podcast and also for me. So, so, but yeah, appreciate the, you know, appreciate you having me on and, and really good to partner with [00:31:00] you on this Phil. [00:31:02] Reflecting on 150 Episodes and What’s Next for HoM --- [00:31:02] Phil Gamache: Folks, this was the final episode of 2024. We're taking a bit of a break. Uh, this is episode 150 and we'll be back with episode 151 fresh in 2025. Uh, that episode is going to be dropping January 7th. So taking a Tiny bit of a holiday break doing 150 episodes, uh, so far and braming to do 50 episodes per year. [00:31:28] So taking a couple of weeks off, uh, throughout the year, but, uh, we've already got a bunch of really exciting guests. Next season, uh, we already started doing interviews this week for some of those folks. Um, so excited about topics, excited about Darrell coming on the show and jumping into a bunch of these upcoming, uh, interviews and probably going to be doing some solo episodes with, uh, Darrell as well. [00:31:53] Um, we don't. Always have to chat with a guest. There's always two really interesting perspectives and folks that we want to chat with at [00:32:00] different companies, but, you know, just picking Daryl's brain and getting to unpack some of the posts that, that he's got out there. It's going to be super fun and exciting. [00:32:08] So if you're a regular listener, very just checking this out for the first time, uh, appreciate you listening this far and, uh, being along for the ride. This has been super fun. Some of you might know I'm doing this full time now I've left the in house world and, uh, just, uh, strapping on, uh, the microphone right now and the headphones and, uh, having a ton of fun with it. [00:32:30] So you guys are really what makes this possible. Um, you're essentially what makes me, uh, be able to attract really amazing sponsors and brands that want to reach out and get in front of you guys. So thank you. Uh, again for a crazy year and I can't wait for, uh, the, the content that we have lined up next year. [00:32:49] So thanks again, happy holidays. If you're listening to this in December, Merry Christmas, and, uh, we'll see you in the new year.