WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:01.120 Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us. 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:03.230 Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free. 00:00:03.410 --> 00:00:06.810 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:08.389 The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home. 00:00:08.450 --> 00:00:13.089 Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our 00:00:13.089 --> 00:00:14.989 audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:15.949 I have a request. 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.750 If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up, 00:00:19.799 --> 00:00:22.380 like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:24.910 It really, really helps us to make the pro. 00:00:24.910 --> 00:00:28.930 To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries, 00:00:29.435 --> 00:00:33.815 books, and other courses, please go to rupertisakson. 00:00:33.894 --> 00:00:34.195 com. 00:00:34.894 --> 00:00:36.125 So now let's jump in. 00:00:39.655 --> 00:00:42.894 Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free. 00:00:42.955 --> 00:00:48.714 When we talk about self-actualization so much of it has to do with how one 00:00:49.375 --> 00:00:55.614 orients oneself on the planet towards the other denisons of the planet. 00:00:56.565 --> 00:01:01.484 One can think so much of self-actualization as the self, 00:01:02.294 --> 00:01:05.865 but the self is nothing, if not something in relation to other. 00:01:06.704 --> 00:01:08.595 And that other is not always human. 00:01:09.585 --> 00:01:18.835 So my guest today rhymes with human, but sounds something like this. 00:01:26.245 --> 00:01:28.105 George, welcome to Live Free, ride Free. 00:01:28.405 --> 00:01:29.185 What was that? 00:01:29.575 --> 00:01:31.075 Who are you and what do you do? 00:01:32.605 --> 00:01:33.865 George Bumann: Thank you for having me, Rupert. 00:01:33.865 --> 00:01:37.795 That was a common raven, which if you live in the Northern Hemisphere, you 00:01:37.795 --> 00:01:42.985 probably know this bird is a large black, glossy corvid family member. 00:01:43.075 --> 00:01:46.244 And it just said that this is my home. 00:01:46.335 --> 00:01:49.034 This is my place and I appreciate it. 00:01:49.034 --> 00:01:50.654 If you stay on your side of the fence, 00:01:52.034 --> 00:01:55.664 Rupert Isaacson: would that Raven be saying that to, to another 00:01:55.664 --> 00:01:58.335 raven, or would that Raven be saying that as equally to me? 00:01:59.800 --> 00:02:02.080 George Bumann: To other ravens, you know, that they are the largest 00:02:02.080 --> 00:02:06.759 songbird in the world and as unsung like as that may sound, that is 00:02:06.759 --> 00:02:08.610 in fact functions as their song. 00:02:09.060 --> 00:02:09.750 Rupert Isaacson: Well, that sort of 00:02:10.139 --> 00:02:10.769 George Bumann: sounds to me a bit 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:14.700 Rupert Isaacson: like the sort of industrial metal singer of the, of 00:02:14.700 --> 00:02:17.250 the avian world m partial to indeed. 00:02:17.250 --> 00:02:17.730 Perhaps they 00:02:17.730 --> 00:02:18.180 George Bumann: are. 00:02:18.450 --> 00:02:18.930 Yes. 00:02:19.110 --> 00:02:19.470 Yes. 00:02:19.920 --> 00:02:21.180 It's appropriate observation. 00:02:21.230 --> 00:02:25.144 Rupert Isaacson: If, if the Raven were to see us on the other side 00:02:25.144 --> 00:02:32.644 of that fence and was to vocalize, what in your experience would it be 00:02:32.644 --> 00:02:36.365 likely to vocalize and, and, and why? 00:02:37.385 --> 00:02:37.745 Yeah, 00:02:37.745 --> 00:02:38.225 George Bumann: sure. 00:02:38.225 --> 00:02:39.605 It would, it would say this, 00:02:47.704 --> 00:02:50.225 Rupert Isaacson: and that's milk, no sugar, please. 00:02:50.225 --> 00:02:50.524 Isn't it? 00:02:50.524 --> 00:02:52.204 When a raven's making you a cup of tea. 00:02:52.235 --> 00:02:52.594 I think I've, 00:02:53.344 --> 00:02:56.795 George Bumann: yes, they will do that in those situations, but more often 00:02:56.795 --> 00:03:00.035 as we experience here in Yellowstone near our home, it's when someone pulls 00:03:00.035 --> 00:03:04.714 out the Cheetos or the bag of crisps as they call them in, in many parts 00:03:04.714 --> 00:03:08.795 of the, of Europe there, the, that extra notes and they're a little bit 00:03:08.795 --> 00:03:14.615 faster, is a bit of possessiveness that's conveyed through those sounds. 00:03:14.945 --> 00:03:17.435 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think the raven at, at this stage, if I hear that, 00:03:17.435 --> 00:03:21.065 is the Raven saying, I would like to share those Cheetos with you, sir? 00:03:21.425 --> 00:03:23.855 Or is the, is the raven according to other Ravens saying 00:03:24.034 --> 00:03:25.594 potential Cheetos on the ground? 00:03:26.510 --> 00:03:28.070 Or some mixture of the two. 00:03:29.209 --> 00:03:34.039 George Bumann: Well, that is most often the sound you hear, the, the 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:38.990 residents give when something really good enters their field of view. 00:03:39.229 --> 00:03:42.769 So in, in other words, that would probably most likely equate to 00:03:42.774 --> 00:03:44.419 mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine. 00:03:46.250 --> 00:03:46.640 I'm sort of 00:03:47.029 --> 00:03:47.959 Rupert Isaacson: about it and a little 00:03:47.959 --> 00:03:50.180 George Bumann: bit worried that someone else not yours. 00:03:50.180 --> 00:03:50.719 Mine. 00:03:51.380 --> 00:03:51.859 Rupert Isaacson: Wonderful. 00:03:51.950 --> 00:03:52.669 Sounds like me. 00:03:53.209 --> 00:03:53.420 Alright. 00:03:53.420 --> 00:04:00.299 Well, George Booman you've got a jolly interesting life and I think where 00:04:00.299 --> 00:04:05.459 I would like to start is I want to start with a book that you've just 00:04:05.459 --> 00:04:09.019 put out eavesdropping on Animals. 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.409 What a wonderful title. 00:04:12.979 --> 00:04:19.010 I like the fact that it's eavesdropping and not listening because I often 00:04:19.010 --> 00:04:25.549 get that sense of stumbling into conversations in the wild, in nature 00:04:25.969 --> 00:04:31.909 that maybe are happening outside of me. 00:04:31.939 --> 00:04:40.039 And I'm lucky enough maybe to overhear, but I can't necessarily claim to 00:04:40.039 --> 00:04:41.809 be a part of the conversation. 00:04:42.559 --> 00:04:43.580 I'm not a hunter gatherer. 00:04:43.580 --> 00:04:45.859 I'm not living at that depth in nature. 00:04:46.469 --> 00:04:50.909 So I think the eavesdropping part of your, of, of your title is. 00:04:51.615 --> 00:04:55.965 Quite indicative of us in the modern age because in many ways I 00:04:55.965 --> 00:04:58.365 feel that's what we can hope for. 00:04:58.515 --> 00:04:59.955 Why did you write this book? 00:04:59.955 --> 00:05:01.185 What does it mean to you? 00:05:02.055 --> 00:05:04.575 How did you come to write this book? 00:05:04.755 --> 00:05:09.465 You can clearly articulate the vocalize vocalizations of animals and 00:05:09.465 --> 00:05:11.355 interpret them to a very good degree. 00:05:12.255 --> 00:05:12.495 George Bumann: Yeah. 00:05:12.615 --> 00:05:13.784 Rupert Isaacson: But this is switching it around. 00:05:13.784 --> 00:05:14.685 Talk to us about this. 00:05:14.685 --> 00:05:15.344 Why'd you do it? 00:05:16.455 --> 00:05:16.664 George Bumann: Yeah. 00:05:16.670 --> 00:05:22.545 The, the real drive for it, Rupert, was just this sense and experience 00:05:22.545 --> 00:05:27.975 of my own that I always felt outside of what nature was doing. 00:05:28.335 --> 00:05:34.335 I grew up on a lake in, in upstate New York state here in the us and there just 00:05:34.335 --> 00:05:40.575 seemed like there was this veil between me and the world of the deer, the beaver, the 00:05:40.575 --> 00:05:45.525 water snake, that there, there were things going on and they knew things about me 00:05:46.515 --> 00:05:49.725 that I couldn't tell how they knew them. 00:05:49.725 --> 00:05:53.325 I would go just as a boy to track the foxes. 00:05:53.325 --> 00:05:57.015 When the lake would freeze, I would hike across the, the frozen lake into 00:05:57.015 --> 00:05:59.025 the swamps and follow fox tracks. 00:05:59.695 --> 00:06:03.414 And one day I came upon this set of tracks that I learned enough at that 00:06:03.414 --> 00:06:05.064 point to know that these were fresh. 00:06:05.064 --> 00:06:09.294 These were so fresh that they'd literally just probably happened minutes before. 00:06:10.854 --> 00:06:16.854 And I could sort of back calculate in my mind where I was when this fox. 00:06:17.229 --> 00:06:20.949 Did this skid move where it basically came to a screeching halt on the 00:06:20.949 --> 00:06:25.389 icy snow in of the swamp, and took off in the opposite direction. 00:06:26.559 --> 00:06:30.309 It knew I was there and I had no clue it was there. 00:06:31.419 --> 00:06:33.039 And how did it do that? 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:38.109 How is it possible that these creatures are, are understanding the world 00:06:38.769 --> 00:06:41.589 beyond mine by beyond what I perceive? 00:06:41.589 --> 00:06:42.969 And it just frustrated me. 00:06:42.969 --> 00:06:48.609 I, I went through all the things that I knew to, to get closer to nature in 00:06:48.609 --> 00:06:52.389 that area and in that culture I grew up in, I fished, I hunted, I I trapped. 00:06:52.389 --> 00:06:55.269 I did all these terrible things I don't do now. 00:06:55.449 --> 00:06:56.469 They taught me a lot. 00:06:56.979 --> 00:07:00.339 I even went through a bachelor's and master's in wildlife ecology 00:07:00.339 --> 00:07:01.719 that didn't feel the well. 00:07:02.799 --> 00:07:07.229 And what I've come to realize over the last two and a half decades of 00:07:07.349 --> 00:07:14.699 guiding and teaching others here in Yellowstone is that it is sound, it is 00:07:14.699 --> 00:07:20.999 sight, it is our senses on the whole that are our doorway into this space. 00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:27.679 But if and only if we know how to use them and how to direct them you 00:07:27.679 --> 00:07:32.899 know, there is this separation we have from each other these days with 00:07:32.899 --> 00:07:37.189 computer technology and other devices and things that isolate us even when 00:07:37.189 --> 00:07:38.569 we're sitting next to one another. 00:07:38.809 --> 00:07:40.759 Say nothing of, you know. 00:07:41.119 --> 00:07:45.559 Larger societies in in your, our town, our, our, our nation. 00:07:46.549 --> 00:07:52.159 But that's amplified even further when you jump across the species divide. 00:07:53.749 --> 00:07:55.189 What is that rabbit doing right now? 00:07:55.334 --> 00:07:57.349 Rupert Isaacson: How end, how did you end up going from 00:07:58.009 --> 00:08:01.309 New York over to Yellowstone? 00:08:01.369 --> 00:08:02.989 You, you clearly went to college. 00:08:02.989 --> 00:08:04.549 You, you're an eco boy. 00:08:05.119 --> 00:08:05.509 Yeah. 00:08:05.509 --> 00:08:09.289 You learn your environmentalism also with a bit of hunting and fishing, which 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:13.069 honestly is our biological imperative. 00:08:13.069 --> 00:08:16.819 I feel It's not a terrible thing as long as one does it with respect. 00:08:16.819 --> 00:08:17.839 It's who we are. 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:17.840 Mm-hmm. 00:08:18.269 --> 00:08:21.419 But yes, if, if we don't need to do it, perhaps we can interact 00:08:21.419 --> 00:08:22.619 with animals in another way. 00:08:23.219 --> 00:08:29.429 But how did you end up coming to the, to the sort of iconic American West there? 00:08:29.939 --> 00:08:36.569 And again, why, what are you, what are you trying to communicate 00:08:36.569 --> 00:08:37.889 to us about this place? 00:08:38.729 --> 00:08:42.179 Because I know that your interaction with nature isn't 00:08:42.179 --> 00:08:44.219 just about the big wilderness. 00:08:44.969 --> 00:08:48.540 Talk to us about how, what's your, what was your trajectory that got you there? 00:08:49.319 --> 00:08:53.669 George Bumann: Yeah, so I grew up in the land of my ancestors. 00:08:53.669 --> 00:08:57.300 My family went back to the second settlers in that area of New York state. 00:08:58.439 --> 00:09:00.479 And, and that has its own interesting history. 00:09:00.479 --> 00:09:04.519 But when I went to graduate studies in Virginia. 00:09:05.629 --> 00:09:09.349 I went to study predator, prey, ecology of birds. 00:09:09.499 --> 00:09:14.589 And I enjoyed it greatly, but as I said, it did, didn't quite fill the void. 00:09:14.589 --> 00:09:19.299 I did, you know, some publications and help with a popular press book and things. 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:25.329 I met my wife there and as often as the case, we move great distances 00:09:25.329 --> 00:09:30.639 when we meet a girl or a guy and, and she had worked here in Yellowstone. 00:09:30.729 --> 00:09:32.469 I was done with academia for a bit. 00:09:32.514 --> 00:09:34.869 I, I wasn't sure if I fit there. 00:09:35.339 --> 00:09:37.619 Or in the research world I had inclinations that 00:09:37.619 --> 00:09:39.569 way, but I needed a break. 00:09:40.050 --> 00:09:44.949 So I followed her where she was following her passion back to, so we 00:09:44.949 --> 00:09:49.159 moved here and she became the campus manager of a field school out there 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:52.519 in, I think you've probably have been there, a Lamar Valley in the northern. 00:09:52.524 --> 00:09:53.104 I know Lamar Valley. 00:09:53.109 --> 00:09:53.299 Yes. 00:09:54.349 --> 00:09:54.949 So we lived there. 00:09:54.954 --> 00:09:56.089 There of America. 00:09:56.119 --> 00:09:57.619 Yeah, precisely. 00:09:57.624 --> 00:09:57.844 Yeah. 00:09:57.849 --> 00:09:58.099 Yeah. 00:09:58.099 --> 00:10:03.224 We lived there for first few years and I was trying to figure it out, you know, 00:10:03.224 --> 00:10:08.624 I was really trying to, to, in some ways probably even find my way back to 00:10:08.624 --> 00:10:12.704 the sense of community I had among the people in the landscape I grew up in. 00:10:12.974 --> 00:10:15.674 You know, everyone knew me, I knew everyone. 00:10:15.974 --> 00:10:16.964 I went to Virginia. 00:10:17.055 --> 00:10:19.305 Very few people knew me, got to know some people. 00:10:19.305 --> 00:10:23.444 But when we moved to Yellowstone, we weren't around people. 00:10:23.894 --> 00:10:24.164 No. 00:10:24.780 --> 00:10:25.319 Not there. 00:10:25.344 --> 00:10:26.759 That's, that's no, not there. 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:29.219 And not then in, in, in large part. 00:10:29.219 --> 00:10:36.239 And so it, it was the, a togetherness and a desire to feel of a place that really 00:10:37.499 --> 00:10:43.800 kind of codified my, my approach to how I, I started out there in Yellowstone. 00:10:43.859 --> 00:10:48.540 It, I was teaching, I taught longer than I've done anything. 00:10:48.660 --> 00:10:52.739 Helping people connect in one of those powerful ways was, was through sound. 00:10:52.739 --> 00:10:58.530 But I needed it for myself to, and the most common species, the most common 00:10:58.530 --> 00:11:03.869 non-human residents there that we saw and interacted with were ravens. 00:11:05.040 --> 00:11:07.739 And so every day they were there, they were part of life. 00:11:07.739 --> 00:11:12.630 They weren't interacting in the, you know, handshaking way and exchanging, you know, 00:11:12.630 --> 00:11:15.109 notes and, and food or anything like that. 00:11:15.109 --> 00:11:16.760 'cause that's of course not allowed in the park. 00:11:16.760 --> 00:11:21.410 But they were a constant presence that drew me outward 00:11:21.410 --> 00:11:23.449 from myself, you could say. 00:11:24.620 --> 00:11:28.069 And what they revealed to me was fantastic. 00:11:28.819 --> 00:11:32.510 The ability to know that the wolves may have just made a kill over 00:11:32.510 --> 00:11:34.579 on the, behind that one ridge. 00:11:34.939 --> 00:11:38.390 That the otters are fishing along the river right there, right now. 00:11:38.660 --> 00:11:41.329 That there might be an owl in the tree over there. 00:11:41.329 --> 00:11:42.199 Do you wanna go see it? 00:11:42.229 --> 00:11:42.920 Okay, let's go. 00:11:42.920 --> 00:11:43.910 Oh my gosh. 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:45.319 Indeed it is. 00:11:46.219 --> 00:11:48.620 And so through these birds who just. 00:11:49.370 --> 00:11:51.949 Are easily dismissed along with any other species. 00:11:51.949 --> 00:11:55.490 Think of what you encounter regularly, whether it's a city or a wilderness. 00:11:55.550 --> 00:11:56.120 Pigeons. 00:11:56.510 --> 00:12:01.699 Squirrels, you know, they have a life, they have a world unto themselves. 00:12:01.699 --> 00:12:02.750 They have culture. 00:12:02.750 --> 00:12:07.010 They might have what we can call language that once we slow down 00:12:07.010 --> 00:12:13.220 enough to see that it's there, we begin to receive those gifts. 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.300 Rupert Isaacson: There's lots, I've been to the Lamar Valley and it's one of 00:12:17.300 --> 00:12:20.540 the most charismatic places in the USA. 00:12:20.540 --> 00:12:24.709 It's one of the only places in the world where you can sort of see wolves out 00:12:24.709 --> 00:12:26.900 in Plainview and that sort of thing. 00:12:26.900 --> 00:12:28.160 It's, it's extraordinary. 00:12:28.280 --> 00:12:31.010 But it's also full of charismatics. 00:12:31.010 --> 00:12:33.350 The word other, you know, iconic birds. 00:12:33.350 --> 00:12:36.290 There's, you see bald eagles there, there's all sorts of interesting smaller 00:12:36.290 --> 00:12:39.079 birds, lots of other corvids mag pies. 00:12:39.079 --> 00:12:39.500 Crows. 00:12:40.189 --> 00:12:41.120 Why the ravens? 00:12:42.590 --> 00:12:44.780 Is it because they're the most like us in a weird way? 00:12:46.730 --> 00:12:51.590 George Bumann: They are intelligent and, and maybe that's part of that mystery. 00:12:51.590 --> 00:12:52.189 We're always 00:12:52.205 --> 00:12:52.699 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah. 00:12:52.699 --> 00:12:53.209 Drawn 00:12:53.209 --> 00:12:55.280 George Bumann: to the mysteries of the world around us. 00:12:55.285 --> 00:12:58.490 And, and the more complex sing, the more tantalizing they are. 00:12:58.490 --> 00:12:58.850 Right. 00:12:58.969 --> 00:13:01.100 And ravens have this mystique. 00:13:01.100 --> 00:13:04.400 You know, I was a birder for, for many years, and when I grew 00:13:04.400 --> 00:13:05.780 up, the idea of birding was. 00:13:06.425 --> 00:13:09.574 Ludicrous, unless you were a grandmother sitting there watching 00:13:09.574 --> 00:13:13.234 the feeder, you know, you didn't go out for a walk just to watch birds. 00:13:13.775 --> 00:13:17.675 So I didn't really learn about that and participate in that until I 00:13:17.675 --> 00:13:22.055 was at the university and then just was taking hook line and sinker. 00:13:22.385 --> 00:13:27.185 And I had been writing down the Raven's name for years along with all these 00:13:27.185 --> 00:13:31.385 other names, but that's where it stopped. 00:13:31.444 --> 00:13:32.734 They were just names. 00:13:33.994 --> 00:13:40.864 They weren't minds and meaning and revelation. 00:13:42.489 --> 00:13:46.535 And when we moved to Yellowstone, they're big, you know, it's easy to be 00:13:46.535 --> 00:13:48.334 pulled in by the big and loud things. 00:13:48.589 --> 00:13:48.869 You know? 00:13:49.864 --> 00:13:51.665 They're not shy to get relatively close to you too. 00:13:51.785 --> 00:13:52.984 They, yeah, yeah. 00:13:52.984 --> 00:13:55.564 Especially if you, you're, you're starting to eat lunch, 00:13:58.025 --> 00:14:00.905 and so it was an easy starting point mm-hmm. 00:14:01.025 --> 00:14:01.655 For me. 00:14:02.255 --> 00:14:09.185 And so I didn't read any of the, the Raven literature, you know, coming 00:14:09.185 --> 00:14:10.535 outta that academic background. 00:14:10.589 --> 00:14:12.334 I, I made a very clear decision. 00:14:12.334 --> 00:14:14.614 I did not wanna read anything about ravens. 00:14:15.155 --> 00:14:19.505 I wanted to see for myself what these birds were doing before I 00:14:19.505 --> 00:14:24.935 dove into any of the, the, the other behavioral, you know, work out there. 00:14:24.935 --> 00:14:27.425 I just wanted to see what I could find in. 00:14:28.474 --> 00:14:32.435 In association with these birds in this place, in this moment. 00:14:33.989 --> 00:14:35.824 And, and that's really just how it started. 00:14:35.824 --> 00:14:37.114 And it started very simple. 00:14:38.014 --> 00:14:41.715 You know, they were always sitting or discovered that there was always two and 00:14:41.715 --> 00:14:43.515 they were sitting on the corral fence top. 00:14:43.935 --> 00:14:49.155 As I got up each morning and as I was doing chores and getting ready to guide 00:14:49.515 --> 00:14:51.885 people on a trip, there was the Raven. 00:14:53.115 --> 00:14:55.215 I'd go for a walk and there was the raven. 00:14:55.965 --> 00:14:59.325 I'd be brushing my teeth and out the window there was the 00:14:59.325 --> 00:15:02.595 raven and always the same Raven. 00:15:02.685 --> 00:15:05.175 Or when you say the raven, I didn't know collective raven. 00:15:05.505 --> 00:15:07.515 I didn't know that was a thing. 00:15:07.515 --> 00:15:12.555 That was part of the adventure is what, what is this? 00:15:13.335 --> 00:15:14.775 How far do they range? 00:15:14.775 --> 00:15:19.605 Does this thing claim title to this whole Lamar, Lamar Valley, 00:15:20.505 --> 00:15:21.495 or is it just right here? 00:15:21.495 --> 00:15:21.705 It was a 00:15:21.705 --> 00:15:25.365 Rupert Isaacson: single Raven, or it was a group of ravens, or it was a, because 00:15:25.365 --> 00:15:28.545 they, they seem to be as solitary as their social and social as their solitary. 00:15:29.805 --> 00:15:31.485 George Bumann: It was almost always two. 00:15:31.815 --> 00:15:32.415 Okay. 00:15:33.045 --> 00:15:34.035 It was almost always two. 00:15:34.035 --> 00:15:38.865 And, and over time I discovered that this pair who sat together, 00:15:39.225 --> 00:15:40.755 presided over this place. 00:15:40.755 --> 00:15:43.155 This was their home, just like it was my home. 00:15:43.275 --> 00:15:49.064 Except there weren't fences or clear cut boundaries of a road or 00:15:49.064 --> 00:15:50.655 anything that defined their space. 00:15:50.655 --> 00:15:53.385 Their space was defined by something much more abstract. 00:15:53.985 --> 00:15:55.485 What was it Defined by sound. 00:15:56.055 --> 00:15:57.525 It was defined by sound. 00:15:58.155 --> 00:15:58.395 Okay. 00:15:58.395 --> 00:16:04.965 And I remember clearly one day hearing them well, the, the typical call 00:16:05.085 --> 00:16:06.405 is the one I did at the beginning. 00:16:06.405 --> 00:16:07.575 It's those three notes. 00:16:13.700 --> 00:16:15.615 But one day it transitioned to, 00:16:23.895 --> 00:16:28.665 and this was different, and this is the, the diamond in the rough that we all hold. 00:16:28.665 --> 00:16:32.925 If we just put in enough time to figure out what's normal, what do 00:16:32.925 --> 00:16:34.995 you expect when you see those ravens? 00:16:34.995 --> 00:16:40.335 Or what do you expect to hear when you spot those ravens and this diverged? 00:16:40.335 --> 00:16:42.045 So, and this is different. 00:16:42.135 --> 00:16:43.215 Why is this different? 00:16:43.455 --> 00:16:49.635 And immediately one of those birds took off from the archway corral fence and 00:16:49.635 --> 00:16:53.445 launched itself across the valley and proceeded to chase this other raven. 00:16:54.390 --> 00:16:55.680 With great ferocity. 00:16:55.680 --> 00:16:59.880 It was trying to, to grab it in the air and push it down toward the ground. 00:16:59.880 --> 00:17:02.700 And the other one was, you know, just doing everything it 00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:05.070 could to get away from this. 00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:09.540 What I discovered was the resident pair, this was their territory, and there 00:17:09.540 --> 00:17:14.400 was this acoustic, no trespassing sign that's represented in those three notes 00:17:14.610 --> 00:17:20.820 that was violated, and the violation was followed up with the chase. 00:17:20.820 --> 00:17:25.470 But also this sound that from then on forward, I'm like, oh my gosh, every 00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:28.650 time I hear that, now I know someone's not where they're supposed to be. 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.420 And someone who, who rules over that airspace is chasing them off. 00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:36.510 So I'd know immediately, okay, there's a raven, there's two ravens 00:17:36.510 --> 00:17:37.890 actually, if we look, oh, yep. 00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:38.400 There they are. 00:17:38.610 --> 00:17:39.750 One chasing the other. 00:17:40.005 --> 00:17:42.330 The, the one behind is the territorial bird. 00:17:42.600 --> 00:17:44.770 The one in the front is the interloper. 00:17:46.090 --> 00:17:49.990 And so immediately the, the world starts expanding, right? 00:17:50.470 --> 00:17:53.439 To see it from the perspective of this big black bird. 00:17:55.090 --> 00:17:56.709 Rupert Isaacson: Few questions immediately spring to mind. 00:17:56.810 --> 00:17:58.550 Do ravens usually live in pairs? 00:17:58.550 --> 00:18:01.129 Because yeah, sometimes one sees them solo, sometimes one sees to 00:18:01.129 --> 00:18:03.169 see them in big, almost parliaments. 00:18:03.739 --> 00:18:04.340 Um mm-hmm. 00:18:04.939 --> 00:18:09.560 And then the other question is, if they're that territorial, 00:18:09.590 --> 00:18:10.969 what was that interloper doing? 00:18:12.499 --> 00:18:17.629 And actually a third question, why didn't it challenge and fight back? 00:18:18.259 --> 00:18:20.749 Or might it have done in another context? 00:18:22.504 --> 00:18:24.004 George Bumann: Yeah, that's a really good question. 00:18:24.004 --> 00:18:30.225 So typically they are territorial in the sense of for nesting purposes, 00:18:30.615 --> 00:18:33.525 you know, they kind of preside over an area so that they can garner the 00:18:33.525 --> 00:18:35.595 resources to take care of their young. 00:18:35.955 --> 00:18:36.285 Mm-hmm. 00:18:36.645 --> 00:18:41.055 So they're, they're most commonly holding down the fort, shall we say, 00:18:41.235 --> 00:18:45.345 when, when the, the stakes are high, you know, they're bringing on the next 00:18:45.345 --> 00:18:47.055 generation, passing on their genes. 00:18:48.135 --> 00:18:53.415 But there are times you're right, where you'll see 3, 6, 8, 10, hundreds. 00:18:53.775 --> 00:18:54.105 Hmm. 00:18:54.435 --> 00:18:58.275 And these cases like right now here in our, our neck of the woods, 00:18:58.515 --> 00:19:05.085 you'll see that surrounding big food sources and birds, as we now know, 00:19:05.085 --> 00:19:09.355 there's been a research project that I, I was involved in peripherally 00:19:09.985 --> 00:19:11.725 to study ravens here in Yellowstone. 00:19:11.785 --> 00:19:15.115 You, and you would think that this wilderness environment, the birds 00:19:15.115 --> 00:19:17.485 are staying in the wilderness, they're feeding only unnatural 00:19:17.485 --> 00:19:18.835 foods, and it's not the case. 00:19:19.195 --> 00:19:24.535 They are commuting daily, 20 to 30 miles each way. 00:19:24.970 --> 00:19:29.410 To access food in areas outside of the park and surrounding communities. 00:19:29.650 --> 00:19:35.590 So for instance, when I was going to Lamar to teach this program, I was passing the 00:19:35.590 --> 00:19:39.100 Ravens who were going the other direction past me, leaving their territories, 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:41.950 going out to the area around my home. 00:19:42.070 --> 00:19:45.615 So we were actually trading places as they were coming to take Oh, 00:19:45.615 --> 00:19:46.990 coming traffic on the community. 00:19:47.125 --> 00:19:48.010 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:19:48.010 --> 00:19:51.400 So there are things like the dump, there are things like the sewage 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:57.040 treatment plant where they grotesquely scour the, the fats that, that, that 00:19:57.040 --> 00:19:59.410 come off of the, the settling ponds. 00:19:59.770 --> 00:20:04.390 But mostly it's to take advantage of human hunters killing game 00:20:04.750 --> 00:20:07.870 outside of Yellowstone, so on the national forest lands. 00:20:08.260 --> 00:20:11.350 And so they're hoping that they will encounter, you know, the, the 00:20:11.350 --> 00:20:15.460 room pile and the organs left behind from hunters of elk and bison. 00:20:16.540 --> 00:20:21.100 And then you'll see these birds com converged by the hundreds, you 00:20:21.100 --> 00:20:26.080 know, 2, 3, 4, 500 in some cases when food supply is really big. 00:20:27.150 --> 00:20:27.660 And then they can 00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:28.020 Rupert Isaacson: be very 00:20:28.020 --> 00:20:30.390 George Bumann: cooperative or at least tolerant. 00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:33.630 Tolerant is probably a better way to put it because they're 00:20:33.630 --> 00:20:34.890 definitely these squabbles. 00:20:34.890 --> 00:20:37.230 And if you hear the sound such as, 00:20:40.230 --> 00:20:44.820 right, that, like, that's the sound of a raven saying, get off my back buddy. 00:20:44.820 --> 00:20:47.010 Don't, don't, don't peck my eyes out. 00:20:47.010 --> 00:20:50.190 You know, this is, I have every right defeat at this carcass that you do. 00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:54.380 And so as you learn these sounds, you start getting that window into 00:20:54.380 --> 00:21:00.830 their world where they definitely do cooperate, but conditionally. 00:21:01.190 --> 00:21:04.205 So like a great example is this call, how, 00:21:06.860 --> 00:21:06.890 ah, 00:21:09.710 --> 00:21:15.115 and now at your home in Germany, in Austria Scandinavia, Russia, north 00:21:15.115 --> 00:21:21.210 America, Alaska, if you hear that sound, it is one of those sounds among the 00:21:21.210 --> 00:21:25.830 dialectics in, in, in regional variations that ravens have that is consistent. 00:21:26.310 --> 00:21:28.170 The territorial call is consistent. 00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:32.250 And that call, that high pitched call is also consistent 00:21:33.330 --> 00:21:35.070 because it's so very important. 00:21:35.820 --> 00:21:38.700 And the importance of that is it conveys the presence of 00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:41.130 food, but not just any food. 00:21:41.375 --> 00:21:43.980 It, it communicates the presence of meat. 00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:48.570 And when I did start, I ended up reading the Raven Literature. 00:21:48.600 --> 00:21:52.800 It overlapped with what I was seeing in Yellowstone Barran Heinrich, one of the 00:21:52.800 --> 00:21:56.850 world's leading authorities on Ravens had discovered what he termed the hail 00:21:56.850 --> 00:21:59.220 call, which was that high pitched ah, 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:04.470 and the time he saw it. 00:22:04.470 --> 00:22:11.700 It was when a single raven found an entire dead moose by itself 00:22:12.300 --> 00:22:14.790 near Barron's cabin in, in Maine. 00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:18.870 And as a behaviorist, this made no sense. 00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:26.400 Why on earth would you shout out when you have found this trove of food to yourself? 00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:30.180 And so this is the, the, at the risk of ruining, you know, Ravens in 00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:31.740 winter, the book he wrote afterwards. 00:22:32.520 --> 00:22:39.720 This call was a situational use of cooperation as it turned out to overwhelm 00:22:39.780 --> 00:22:44.400 the resident birds who presided over that area that would otherwise kick it out. 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:50.310 So the meat call, the hail call was actually used to draw. 00:22:50.520 --> 00:22:55.320 And when he first heard it, that one Raven called with that high pitch call. 00:22:55.410 --> 00:22:58.620 And Ravens came outta the woodwork and they joined it 00:22:58.620 --> 00:22:59.970 to feed, and it made no sense. 00:22:59.970 --> 00:23:01.860 Again, why would you share? 00:23:02.130 --> 00:23:05.400 You built, you make this wonderful dinner, and before you and your family 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:09.660 eat, you invite the h You know, the, the, the local rugby team did dine first. 00:23:10.695 --> 00:23:12.795 You know, that makes no sense. 00:23:12.825 --> 00:23:13.785 You know, you don't get any. 00:23:14.265 --> 00:23:16.905 But what he found was, yes, these were young birds. 00:23:16.905 --> 00:23:20.355 These were non territorial birds who were kind of floating around and if they found 00:23:20.355 --> 00:23:24.945 something in someone else's backyard, they knew that if they gave this high 00:23:24.945 --> 00:23:30.075 pitched hail call, it basically brought in the rugby team and the football 00:23:30.075 --> 00:23:35.205 team and, you know, the gymnastics squad, so that the ravens who would 00:23:35.205 --> 00:23:37.305 otherwise kick them out were overwhelmed. 00:23:38.385 --> 00:23:41.565 Which is a fascinating interplay that, that shows the 00:23:41.565 --> 00:23:43.035 intelligence of these creatures. 00:23:44.835 --> 00:23:48.345 Rupert Isaacson: So was that one raven that was then driven 00:23:48.345 --> 00:23:51.405 out by your resident Raven? 00:23:51.405 --> 00:23:51.705 Do you think? 00:23:51.705 --> 00:23:56.745 One of those semi juveniles cruising, looking for a territory? 00:23:58.815 --> 00:23:59.175 George Bumann: That's why I didn't 00:23:59.445 --> 00:24:00.015 Rupert Isaacson: fight back. 00:24:00.885 --> 00:24:01.995 George Bumann: Yeah, it didn't fight back. 00:24:02.045 --> 00:24:02.945 Usually the, 00:24:05.045 --> 00:24:08.975 in any case, when a bird chases another bird, the one in the back has the 00:24:08.975 --> 00:24:12.025 upper wing, upper hand, upper wing but 00:24:12.025 --> 00:24:12.325 Rupert Isaacson: you can 00:24:12.325 --> 00:24:12.565 George Bumann: turn 00:24:12.565 --> 00:24:15.265 Rupert Isaacson: around and get behind them or you could, but you, 00:24:15.280 --> 00:24:18.515 you do see birds when they're in combat in sometimes doing that. 00:24:18.785 --> 00:24:23.105 And sometimes it's clear that one is no, I'm just gonna defend 00:24:23.105 --> 00:24:24.065 myself and get outta here. 00:24:24.065 --> 00:24:26.225 And the other, other time it's like, no, I'm gonna try and get on top 00:24:26.225 --> 00:24:26.585 George Bumann: of you. 00:24:26.645 --> 00:24:28.535 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:24:28.535 --> 00:24:31.265 It's a complex thing and it matters who it is, you know, whether 00:24:31.265 --> 00:24:32.615 it's a juvenile or an adult. 00:24:32.615 --> 00:24:36.785 And that's one of the neat things I feel like I've found since. 00:24:37.670 --> 00:24:41.510 I was able to step behind some of those layers of the natural world is 00:24:41.510 --> 00:24:44.000 to realize they're all individuals. 00:24:44.660 --> 00:24:48.080 They are really genuinely individuals in the way we are. 00:24:48.590 --> 00:24:51.990 So, you know, I was just talking about this with a friend about grizzly bears. 00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:55.740 It's not always the biggest grizzly bear who dominates the carcass. 00:24:56.520 --> 00:25:02.490 Sometimes it's a smaller one who just has the attitude that others don't 00:25:02.490 --> 00:25:04.320 wanna mess with the dog in the fight. 00:25:04.320 --> 00:25:05.379 It's fighting the dog. 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:05.710 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:25:06.280 --> 00:25:06.820 Bingo. 00:25:07.210 --> 00:25:07.810 Exactly. 00:25:07.879 --> 00:25:10.610 That's the rick, Rick McIntyre Wolf eight. 00:25:10.669 --> 00:25:11.060 Right. 00:25:11.060 --> 00:25:12.230 The, that, that amazing. 00:25:12.245 --> 00:25:12.534 Yeah. 00:25:12.649 --> 00:25:12.889 George Bumann: Yeah. 00:25:12.950 --> 00:25:13.490 Rupert Isaacson: Of that. 00:25:13.730 --> 00:25:13.879 Yeah. 00:25:13.879 --> 00:25:17.990 Small male who seemed to somehow kick butt all over. 00:25:18.365 --> 00:25:18.655 George Bumann: Yeah. 00:25:18.659 --> 00:25:18.889 Yeah. 00:25:18.889 --> 00:25:20.815 Let's, by rights he should make, yeah. 00:25:20.815 --> 00:25:22.550 And he started out as a subordinate. 00:25:22.909 --> 00:25:27.409 And, and so the, the context in which these non-human individuals find 00:25:27.409 --> 00:25:31.460 themselves brings out these qualities and characters that, you know, we often 00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:35.240 see in ourselves when you go away to college, when you get a new group of 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:37.280 friends, you know, the dynamic shifts. 00:25:37.340 --> 00:25:40.040 And that's one of the most beautiful things I think, to watch 00:25:40.040 --> 00:25:45.260 over time, is the trajectory of a life of a non-human individual. 00:25:45.379 --> 00:25:50.300 You know, we've had the chance to do that with individual elk and bison and wolves 00:25:50.300 --> 00:25:54.139 in, in some of the cases of the wolves, been able to watch generationally traits 00:25:54.139 --> 00:25:57.379 and characteristics that are handed from the grandmother to the mother, 00:25:57.560 --> 00:25:59.870 to the granddaughter, and to her pups. 00:25:59.899 --> 00:26:03.710 You know, just not just coat color, but the way they hunt, 00:26:04.129 --> 00:26:05.690 the way they relate to people. 00:26:06.260 --> 00:26:11.449 These very dynamic and, and I think more than anything that shows us we're not 00:26:11.449 --> 00:26:18.529 alone in the way we navigate the world, but that we are very much part of their 00:26:18.529 --> 00:26:20.540 world, whether we think we are or not, 00:26:21.350 --> 00:26:25.219 Rupert Isaacson: these ravens that you got to know, interestingly, 00:26:25.219 --> 00:26:26.749 you know, you're in a lonely place. 00:26:27.229 --> 00:26:30.679 There isn't a lot of one could perhaps, if there had been more people 00:26:30.679 --> 00:26:34.879 around, you might not have paid so much close attention to the Ravens. 00:26:34.879 --> 00:26:34.969 Mm-hmm. 00:26:35.239 --> 00:26:40.879 How long did you know them for and what else did they guide you into? 00:26:40.879 --> 00:26:43.100 Like you're mentioning the elk, you're mentioning the wolf. 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:46.490 So they clearly opened up the world, but you must have had a 00:26:46.490 --> 00:26:48.620 relationship with them for some time. 00:26:48.620 --> 00:26:49.730 How long did that last for? 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:50.990 How long do Ravens live? 00:26:50.990 --> 00:26:53.660 How long did they keep their territories and mm-hmm. 00:26:53.780 --> 00:26:56.120 If they seeded their territories or died. 00:26:56.120 --> 00:26:57.920 Just tell us a little bit the story and now, now I'm curious. 00:26:57.920 --> 00:26:58.790 I wanna know what happened to them. 00:26:59.330 --> 00:27:00.110 George Bumann: Yeah, yeah. 00:27:00.110 --> 00:27:03.020 It's, and it's a hard thing because it was before this study started where 00:27:03.020 --> 00:27:04.730 they were banding any of the birds. 00:27:04.730 --> 00:27:08.930 So I, many of these species, and I'm sure you've encountered this 00:27:08.930 --> 00:27:10.700 too, they, they all look the same. 00:27:11.450 --> 00:27:11.540 Yeah. 00:27:11.570 --> 00:27:14.390 And as humans, we sometimes say that even of other cultures, you 00:27:14.390 --> 00:27:17.180 know, or other cultures say that about us, that we all look the same. 00:27:17.180 --> 00:27:22.879 But of an acquaintance, Joe Huro has, you know, he got to the point after nine 00:27:22.879 --> 00:27:28.610 years of literally embedding himself with a group of wild mule deer in Wyoming that 00:27:28.610 --> 00:27:31.970 he could tell by facial features alone. 00:27:32.149 --> 00:27:36.530 And a few body features the identity of over 200 individual 00:27:36.620 --> 00:27:39.139 mule deer that all look the same. 00:27:39.315 --> 00:27:39.605 Yeah. 00:27:39.679 --> 00:27:43.159 But they don't, the truth is they really don't, when you start paying attention, 00:27:43.280 --> 00:27:48.590 and I didn't have the time to get to that level with these birds, and I don't know 00:27:48.590 --> 00:27:52.610 if I even really could, but I only had, we, were they staying there in the summer? 00:27:52.850 --> 00:27:55.939 So I basically had a season to get to know these birds. 00:27:56.060 --> 00:28:01.730 And I, if they traded places with some other ones, honestly, I don't know if I 00:28:01.730 --> 00:28:04.430 could have really identified who was who. 00:28:05.270 --> 00:28:08.810 But they can live, gosh, there might be some of the same birds there now. 00:28:08.840 --> 00:28:11.300 They can live into their teens and twenties. 00:28:11.580 --> 00:28:12.810 Well that was gonna be my question. 00:28:12.810 --> 00:28:15.390 As far as I know, they're quite long lived birds, you know, even in the wild. 00:28:15.930 --> 00:28:16.320 Yeah. 00:28:16.650 --> 00:28:16.830 Yeah. 00:28:16.830 --> 00:28:20.310 And that was one of the things that I was very cognizant of when 00:28:20.310 --> 00:28:21.960 I helped out with this Raven study. 00:28:21.990 --> 00:28:24.870 'cause they were notoriously difficult to capture. 00:28:25.560 --> 00:28:25.650 Mm-hmm. 00:28:25.656 --> 00:28:30.570 They're so intelligent and they're so, astute in terms of reading 00:28:30.570 --> 00:28:36.480 situations, but also seemingly reading the intentions of, of us. 00:28:36.930 --> 00:28:37.080 Mm-hmm. 00:28:37.110 --> 00:28:39.000 So, for instance, we started out one day in the park. 00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.670 We had a dead squirrel and we put it behind the vehicle we were 00:28:41.670 --> 00:28:45.330 in and hid the trap, which is this device that launches a net. 00:28:45.540 --> 00:28:48.300 You know, we covered it in newspaper, made it look like a pile of trash, 00:28:48.330 --> 00:28:51.660 you know, and we sat there for hours. 00:28:52.410 --> 00:28:57.870 And as we're sitting there, the ravens, they knew, they see the squirrel, but they 00:28:57.870 --> 00:29:04.050 would fly by and they would not just look, they would look into the car windows. 00:29:04.560 --> 00:29:09.180 They would look at us as if to say, you should be getting out, you should 00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:13.350 be going for a walk, yet you're, you're doing something different here. 00:29:13.350 --> 00:29:14.460 What, what are you doing? 00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:18.540 And they would go perch on a rock, maybe 200 meters away, and they 00:29:18.540 --> 00:29:19.830 would just sit in and observe. 00:29:21.015 --> 00:29:23.205 And they'd fly by again a little while later. 00:29:23.265 --> 00:29:28.395 And so it wasn't until we did a bit of craftiness near our home with the 00:29:28.395 --> 00:29:33.615 researchers in a place where the birds have always come for generations. 00:29:33.645 --> 00:29:36.095 There's a place where our neighbor throws bones. 00:29:36.515 --> 00:29:41.585 He is a hunting guide, and he would cut up the, the, the game that they would collect 00:29:41.945 --> 00:29:43.775 and hunt and throw the bones in this pile. 00:29:44.075 --> 00:29:47.015 So I knew these birds were coming to this, this bait pile. 00:29:47.015 --> 00:29:48.095 They were not afraid of it. 00:29:48.395 --> 00:29:49.415 So we set up the trap. 00:29:50.165 --> 00:29:55.745 And lo and behold, Matias is a wonderful fellow who is one of the lead 00:29:55.745 --> 00:29:59.915 researchers from Austria that at that time he was at the Max Plank Institute. 00:30:00.785 --> 00:30:06.695 And we launched that net and captured 23 Ravens at once. 00:30:07.415 --> 00:30:09.575 Two of them escaped, so we're down to 21. 00:30:09.575 --> 00:30:14.375 But still, Mathias says in that smooth Austrian accent in, in, in 00:30:14.375 --> 00:30:19.325 English, he says, I've never caught this many, you know, literally I'm 00:30:19.325 --> 00:30:20.675 on the phone with my wife, Jenny. 00:30:20.675 --> 00:30:24.995 I'm like, bring every, every pillowcase, every sack he had, he had a couple 00:30:24.995 --> 00:30:26.525 cat carriers and some pillowcases. 00:30:26.525 --> 00:30:30.365 I'm like, bring everything to the, to the pasture at the neighbors quick. 00:30:30.365 --> 00:30:34.565 You know, we've, and literally this, this net looks like a, you know. 00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:41.750 A, a container of bouncing burnt popcorn, like these birds are just exploding outta 00:30:41.750 --> 00:30:45.260 there and we finally bagged them up and we're all bleeding because even though 00:30:45.260 --> 00:30:50.000 this bird is not a raptor per se, you know that big sharp hooked beak, they 00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:52.595 have a small hook and they will cut you. 00:30:53.755 --> 00:30:55.820 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I was gonna say, I, I would wanna wait 00:30:55.820 --> 00:30:57.200 in there in full armor, I think. 00:30:57.410 --> 00:30:58.520 George Bumann: Yeah, pretty much. 00:30:58.730 --> 00:30:59.450 Yeah, pretty much. 00:30:59.450 --> 00:31:02.990 But you couldn't work very well with gloves on, so you had to, you know, 00:31:02.990 --> 00:31:06.650 they'd very delicately get the net out from behind their tongues so you didn't 00:31:06.650 --> 00:31:11.240 hurt them and get their, the net out from between their, their toes and claws. 00:31:11.630 --> 00:31:14.150 So you just had to open yourself up to it. 00:31:14.600 --> 00:31:20.840 But through that process and the process of weighing them, measuring them, putting 00:31:20.840 --> 00:31:28.400 the transmitters on the leg, bands, I knew that these long lived birds know 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:34.460 us, even though we can't tell them apart as individuals, they know us. 00:31:34.955 --> 00:31:38.615 And John Mars left, who is one of the lead researchers on that same project, 00:31:38.765 --> 00:31:42.215 had done a study in, in Washington that you might be familiar with, with they did 00:31:42.215 --> 00:31:49.025 crow crows close relative of ravens, and found that they identify us as individuals 00:31:49.025 --> 00:31:51.605 and they remember, and they pass it on. 00:31:51.755 --> 00:31:55.745 They talk about us, and they would harass this masked figure who 00:31:55.745 --> 00:32:00.185 captured them, even though the, they took the mask out for a walk on the 00:32:00.185 --> 00:32:04.665 campus of Washington's university of Washington campus once a year. 00:32:05.175 --> 00:32:08.025 They captured once, remember this, they captured one time 00:32:08.235 --> 00:32:09.195 and let all the birds go. 00:32:10.485 --> 00:32:13.545 Every time they wore the mask that they did when they captured 00:32:13.545 --> 00:32:15.885 the birds every year thereafter. 00:32:16.125 --> 00:32:19.125 And it's been like 17, 18 years now. 00:32:19.785 --> 00:32:22.125 The crows would go bananas. 00:32:23.385 --> 00:32:26.025 They would harass that person and ignore everybody else. 00:32:26.505 --> 00:32:29.805 So through this process I had, this was before Covid, I had a 00:32:29.805 --> 00:32:33.255 handkerchief on, I looked like a bank robber, you know, over my face. 00:32:33.345 --> 00:32:35.265 I wore clothes that I didn't normally wear. 00:32:35.265 --> 00:32:37.155 I wore shoes that I didn't normally wear. 00:32:37.155 --> 00:32:41.145 'cause if there was any chance of pissing off the locals, I didn't 00:32:41.145 --> 00:32:45.105 wanna be recognized as the guy who was messing with him because in I talk 00:32:45.105 --> 00:32:49.335 about this in the book, a friend of ours didn't take those precautions. 00:32:49.755 --> 00:32:52.815 Nobody else did, in fact, and she. 00:32:53.445 --> 00:32:58.065 Went to a local cafe in town, like two and a half miles from the capture 00:32:58.065 --> 00:33:02.625 site and where we did the measuring and all the, the workup on the birds. 00:33:03.225 --> 00:33:07.425 Two weeks later, two and a half miles away, she comes outta the cafe 00:33:07.425 --> 00:33:10.755 with a scone and a coffee, okay? 00:33:10.755 --> 00:33:16.755 And this, this raven shows up and it takes this sideways hop toward her 00:33:16.755 --> 00:33:18.435 like you're gonna gimme some of that. 00:33:19.575 --> 00:33:21.315 And the moment she spoke. 00:33:21.315 --> 00:33:26.175 Now, keep in mind, most of the birds didn't see us anyway, or very little 00:33:26.175 --> 00:33:31.005 because they were in a, a cloth sack that would keep them safe, keep them calm. 00:33:31.995 --> 00:33:38.925 But they were listening as well as watching Shauna said, oh, what do you 00:33:38.925 --> 00:33:43.035 think you're doing to this Raven, who was sidling up for a piece of her scone. 00:33:43.065 --> 00:33:46.275 And the moment she spoke, the thing went ballistic. 00:33:46.275 --> 00:33:49.095 It screamed in a way she'd never heard a raven scream. 00:33:49.095 --> 00:33:55.215 And it jumped into this spruce tree just 20 feet away and just screaming at her. 00:33:55.215 --> 00:33:58.845 And meanwhile, these other ravens join it and start screaming at her, and 00:33:58.845 --> 00:34:03.975 they follow her all the way down the street screaming, shame, shame, shame. 00:34:03.975 --> 00:34:04.425 Yes. 00:34:04.425 --> 00:34:08.565 And she knew, she had noticed it had leg bands and a transmitter on its back. 00:34:08.565 --> 00:34:11.175 So this was one of the birds. 00:34:11.415 --> 00:34:16.755 She helped work up at the study site and it remembered. 00:34:17.100 --> 00:34:21.930 Not her, her outward appearance, it remembered her voice. 00:34:22.050 --> 00:34:24.360 It only did this after she spoke. 00:34:25.050 --> 00:34:27.750 So in addition to being all covered up and wearing different clothes, I was 00:34:27.750 --> 00:34:30.630 trying not to talk just on the chance. 00:34:30.630 --> 00:34:32.070 And they found this in elephants too. 00:34:32.310 --> 00:34:37.140 Like they, they know us way more than we realize. 00:34:38.010 --> 00:34:39.480 Rupert Isaacson: So the eavesdropping is two way. 00:34:40.050 --> 00:34:41.190 They're eavesdropping on us. 00:34:41.190 --> 00:34:43.980 We are eavesdropping on them precisely. 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:47.430 And they're, I guess the subtext of that is there really is no us 00:34:47.430 --> 00:34:53.070 and them, we're all part, we're all part of the same species habitat. 00:34:53.550 --> 00:34:59.030 There's a lady where I'm sitting right now in a large village, small 00:34:59.030 --> 00:35:01.220 town in Germany called Eden Hausen. 00:35:01.730 --> 00:35:09.189 There is a park across the street from us which is also, it, it, it's also farmland. 00:35:09.189 --> 00:35:11.890 It's sort of half park, half farmland, and then it goes 00:35:11.890 --> 00:35:13.089 out to the forest in the park. 00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:15.790 But it's sort of a public place where people walk. 00:35:16.149 --> 00:35:18.310 There's a lady who goes and she feeds the crows. 00:35:19.509 --> 00:35:26.080 And I've been watching her for seven years and she shows up. 00:35:27.310 --> 00:35:28.750 The crows are all lined up. 00:35:28.990 --> 00:35:33.370 They, they see her coming and she has an individual relationship with each one. 00:35:34.390 --> 00:35:37.660 And if you show up there, she'll introduce you. 00:35:38.830 --> 00:35:42.970 And I, a bit like you have realized that I. 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:45.070 Pretty sure they know who I am. 00:35:45.580 --> 00:35:49.550 And therefore, I want to mind my P's and Q's a little bit because 00:35:49.635 --> 00:35:51.050 I, I don't want to get mobbed. 00:35:51.500 --> 00:35:55.380 Walking through that, and my wife Eliana, who you just met for this podcast out 00:35:55.380 --> 00:36:00.470 where we keep our horses, she started to bring things for the crows because we got 00:36:00.470 --> 00:36:05.920 the idea because a friend of mine during Covid in London decided to grow decided 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:11.740 to grow garlic on his balcony, and he put window boxes out, and he came out 00:36:11.740 --> 00:36:19.540 one day and found the garlic, dug up from the soil, placed still in the soil, but 00:36:21.160 --> 00:36:24.490 inside where the garlic had been a peanut. 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:29.650 And this happened over all times. 00:36:30.610 --> 00:36:32.560 And, you know, all kind what's going on? 00:36:32.560 --> 00:36:33.430 All kinds of theories. 00:36:33.430 --> 00:36:36.580 Everyone's, he texted me about it, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:36:36.580 --> 00:36:39.460 I've got no idea because, you know, you're an nature guy. 00:36:39.460 --> 00:36:43.270 Rupert, you know, got window box in Hackney London. 00:36:43.300 --> 00:36:44.140 No, no idea. 00:36:44.650 --> 00:36:45.490 You know, squirrel. 00:36:45.490 --> 00:36:46.960 I don't know, but it doesn't sound like squirrel. 00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:47.230 Yeah. 00:36:47.560 --> 00:36:47.830 Why? 00:36:47.890 --> 00:36:49.720 And why, why is it taking something out, Rupert? 00:36:49.720 --> 00:36:53.860 Anyway, of course, he watched and watched, and watched and watched. 00:36:53.860 --> 00:36:58.060 It was one day he was coming home, getting out of his car, and he saw 00:36:58.750 --> 00:37:00.970 the raven, the, the, the crow fly in. 00:37:01.600 --> 00:37:03.460 Dig off his garlic and put a peanut in it. 00:37:03.910 --> 00:37:05.410 And then he is like, well, why? 00:37:05.410 --> 00:37:07.030 And where are they getting the peanuts from? 00:37:07.630 --> 00:37:09.250 So then he gets obsessed, of course. 00:37:09.250 --> 00:37:10.900 And it's covid, so there's nothing else to do. 00:37:11.050 --> 00:37:14.380 So, which is great because, you know, this is a time we can actually observe nature. 00:37:15.610 --> 00:37:17.620 And he begins to follow. 00:37:17.620 --> 00:37:22.990 And he followed one basically through the neighborhood, and he saw 00:37:22.990 --> 00:37:29.200 that they were going to the local Turkish delicatessen where they had 00:37:29.200 --> 00:37:31.960 bags of peanuts outside in sacks. 00:37:32.770 --> 00:37:33.010 Oh, wow. 00:37:33.070 --> 00:37:36.040 And they were waiting till No, and they were sweeping, they grab one. 00:37:36.790 --> 00:37:37.030 George Bumann: Hmm. 00:37:37.180 --> 00:37:41.470 Rupert Isaacson: But then they were going and depositing it in his window box. 00:37:43.510 --> 00:37:44.560 What were they saying? 00:37:44.560 --> 00:37:47.080 Were they saying, well, we think you put that there for us, the 00:37:47.080 --> 00:37:48.280 garlic, but we don't like garlic. 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:51.160 So here's a suggestion about some things we might like. 00:37:51.310 --> 00:37:54.430 Or were they saying, we think you put this garlic here for us. 00:37:54.490 --> 00:37:56.110 We don't like it, but it's the thought that counts. 00:37:56.110 --> 00:37:57.160 So here's something for you. 00:37:58.060 --> 00:37:59.110 None of the above, 00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:02.290 but fascinating, 00:38:03.160 --> 00:38:04.090 George Bumann: very fascinating. 00:38:04.330 --> 00:38:06.520 Rupert Isaacson: The, the, that's sort of my question is, 00:38:06.520 --> 00:38:08.170 you know, ravens in the wild? 00:38:08.170 --> 00:38:11.350 You mentioned wolf, you mentioned elk, and I hope you'll take us back there. 00:38:11.890 --> 00:38:15.940 But most people, of course, live in urban situations or suburb situations, 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:19.480 and of course, they're surrounded by nature and surrounded by wildlife. 00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:24.010 Our, our mutual friend Craig Foster, talks about walking around London and 00:38:24.010 --> 00:38:30.250 observing where slugs have gone on paving stones and eaten the algae. 00:38:30.745 --> 00:38:32.905 That's growing on the paving stones. 00:38:32.905 --> 00:38:37.705 And he can, he's learn to identify not just the trails, but the tooth marks 00:38:37.885 --> 00:38:41.695 because they're extremely similar to those of the slugs and the sea slugs that 00:38:42.205 --> 00:38:44.635 are on his kelp forest in South Africa. 00:38:44.755 --> 00:38:46.915 And he's there feeling, you know, overwhelmed and 00:38:46.915 --> 00:38:48.415 freaked out by the big city. 00:38:48.445 --> 00:38:49.015 He hates it. 00:38:49.375 --> 00:38:53.785 And then he starts to get his tracking eyes on and he's realizing, oh my gosh, 00:38:53.785 --> 00:38:55.405 I'm actually surrounded by wildlife. 00:38:55.915 --> 00:38:57.415 Yeah, eavesdropping on nature. 00:38:57.445 --> 00:38:58.975 TT take us into the city. 00:38:58.975 --> 00:38:59.125 Now. 00:38:59.125 --> 00:39:01.585 Take us into a more suburban setting. 00:39:03.355 --> 00:39:03.775 George Bumann: Yeah. 00:39:04.105 --> 00:39:06.535 Wonderful questions and, and wonderful lead in, because 00:39:06.535 --> 00:39:07.975 nature really is everywhere. 00:39:07.975 --> 00:39:12.835 You don't have to live next to the, the great kelp forest of South Africa, 00:39:12.835 --> 00:39:14.725 like Craig or next to Yellowstone. 00:39:14.845 --> 00:39:21.835 There's wildness everywhere that is, that is the, almost with the hallmark of 00:39:21.835 --> 00:39:27.475 life as it fits in all the places that it possibly could, whether it's a plant, 00:39:27.790 --> 00:39:31.315 a, a, a microbe, a, a bird, a mammal. 00:39:32.095 --> 00:39:32.935 And they make due. 00:39:32.965 --> 00:39:37.795 And in some cases, being near people is actually way more advantageous than 00:39:37.795 --> 00:39:41.895 being without, you know, they found that raccoons, for instance, in some places in 00:39:41.895 --> 00:39:47.205 the United States are, are far more well off in suburban and urban environments. 00:39:47.205 --> 00:39:48.405 They learned to cross streets. 00:39:48.405 --> 00:39:49.905 They learned to use intersections. 00:39:50.295 --> 00:39:51.765 They also come along. 00:39:51.765 --> 00:39:52.635 My Uber driver the other 00:39:52.635 --> 00:39:53.865 Rupert Isaacson: day was a raccoon actually. 00:39:53.865 --> 00:39:54.045 George Bumann: Yeah. 00:39:54.045 --> 00:39:54.765 Was really? 00:39:54.855 --> 00:39:55.275 Yes. 00:39:55.605 --> 00:39:58.495 And did he, did he keep both hands on the wheel or was it he didn't need to. 00:39:58.495 --> 00:39:59.815 He was just driving by ESP. 00:39:59.875 --> 00:40:01.465 Yeah, they're more intelligent. 00:40:03.235 --> 00:40:05.895 Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm 00:40:05.895 --> 00:40:13.075 an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping 00:40:13.075 --> 00:40:17.795 people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field. 00:40:17.874 --> 00:40:18.715 Are you a therapist? 00:40:19.135 --> 00:40:20.405 Are you a caregiver? 00:40:20.795 --> 00:40:21.805 Are you a parent? 00:40:22.240 --> 00:40:24.270 Or are you somebody with neurodivergence? 00:40:25.710 --> 00:40:30.650 When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004, 00:40:30.690 --> 00:40:32.320 I really didn't know what to do. 00:40:32.520 --> 00:40:37.789 So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult 00:40:37.830 --> 00:40:40.630 autistic woman who's very famous, Dr. 00:40:40.780 --> 00:40:41.670 Temple Grandin. 00:40:41.870 --> 00:40:43.510 And she told me what to do. 00:40:43.560 --> 00:40:47.800 And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years. 00:40:48.150 --> 00:40:52.600 That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped 00:40:52.860 --> 00:40:56.610 countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal. 00:40:56.950 --> 00:41:00.850 Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings. 00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:06.320 If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed 00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:08.579 approach, it's called Movement Method. 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:12.597 You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply. 00:41:12.597 --> 00:41:14.859 It's almost laughably simple. 00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:18.500 The important thing is to begin. 00:41:19.430 --> 00:41:22.580 Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr. 00:41:22.580 --> 00:41:25.870 Grandin and see what results can follow. 00:41:26.900 --> 00:41:29.830 Go to this website, newtrailslearning. 00:41:32.100 --> 00:41:34.605 com Sign up as a gold member. 00:41:35.045 --> 00:41:37.935 Take the online movement method course. 00:41:38.425 --> 00:41:39.795 It's in 40 countries. 00:41:40.405 --> 00:41:42.465 Let us know how it goes for you. 00:41:42.665 --> 00:41:43.434 We really want to know. 00:41:43.445 --> 00:41:47.944 We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there 00:41:48.294 --> 00:41:51.575 live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens. 00:41:52.565 --> 00:41:55.925 George Bumann: So, you know, the, the bottom line is you, you can interact 00:41:56.045 --> 00:41:59.645 with these things, these non-human intelligences everywhere, really. 00:42:00.665 --> 00:42:03.305 And so let's step into a park. 00:42:03.305 --> 00:42:05.105 Let's say you're, you're living in a park. 00:42:05.795 --> 00:42:08.015 And because I know North American species a little bit better, I'll, 00:42:08.015 --> 00:42:13.795 I'll use that as an example where you might be out it outdoors before light. 00:42:15.115 --> 00:42:17.185 It's dawn and you hear, 00:42:23.605 --> 00:42:27.025 so a great horned owl is there somewhere in the distance. 00:42:27.715 --> 00:42:32.185 And let's, let's actually add another, a different owl in, because this one is, 00:42:32.215 --> 00:42:33.535 is perhaps a little more instructive, 00:42:41.425 --> 00:42:42.325 the Bard owl. 00:42:43.045 --> 00:42:46.945 And before you can even see, before the sun has come up, you know, in most. 00:42:48.595 --> 00:42:52.495 In most likelihood, there is an evergreen tree, or forest, a 00:42:52.495 --> 00:42:54.385 component to the forest in the park. 00:42:55.615 --> 00:42:55.945 Okay? 00:42:55.945 --> 00:42:59.965 So that the sun comes up or it's getting close to sunrise, and you hear, you 00:42:59.965 --> 00:43:04.615 know, perhaps if it's a big enough park, you'll hear, teach, teach, teach, 00:43:04.615 --> 00:43:09.565 teach, teach the sound of an oven, bird, which is a type of war garden. 00:43:09.565 --> 00:43:09.835 It's an oven. 00:43:09.835 --> 00:43:12.205 Bird, yeah, it's a very small bird. 00:43:12.265 --> 00:43:15.565 And they make a nest that's kind of a globe with a side entrance, 00:43:15.565 --> 00:43:17.295 like an old fashioned bread oven. 00:43:18.795 --> 00:43:23.415 And they only nest in mature continuous forest. 00:43:24.255 --> 00:43:31.995 Whereas if you hear, we, we, we, as the sun is just starting to creep up that 00:43:31.995 --> 00:43:36.645 gray cat bird, you know that there's a brushy area, perhaps somewhere over there. 00:43:37.675 --> 00:43:39.235 You hear the rattle of a kingfisher. 00:43:39.235 --> 00:43:43.705 You know that if you've never even been to that place, that there's a stream or a 00:43:43.705 --> 00:43:48.085 river or a pond where there might be fish and this, this bird is looking for that, 00:43:48.535 --> 00:43:53.875 or just simply the sound of amphibians, frogs calling, there's a wetland, there's 00:43:53.875 --> 00:43:56.605 a marsh, there's some other habitat there. 00:43:57.145 --> 00:44:02.995 And so in, in many ways, I think sound is better than vision. 00:44:03.055 --> 00:44:09.565 We, we, we default to vision, but sound can go over, around and even through 00:44:09.565 --> 00:44:12.235 objects that we can't see through. 00:44:13.825 --> 00:44:17.785 And by a way of engaging not just our ears, but you know, learning 00:44:17.785 --> 00:44:20.905 to, to see through our noses, learning to see through our fingers. 00:44:20.905 --> 00:44:25.465 We discover things that we walked right by in places we thought we 00:44:25.465 --> 00:44:27.805 knew, perhaps for our whole lifetime. 00:44:28.465 --> 00:44:32.605 And by starting to listen to these wild conversations, you realize a, 00:44:32.605 --> 00:44:37.555 you're, you're surrounded by these other living beings, but that they're 00:44:37.555 --> 00:44:42.145 also telling you very important things about what your shared space is Like. 00:44:46.895 --> 00:44:49.565 Rupert Isaacson: So in June, I was, I was in London at my mom's house and 00:44:49.565 --> 00:44:55.924 my mom, like, your mom's a a artist, a sculptor, and she has a studio out back 00:44:55.924 --> 00:44:57.275 of the house and there's bed in it. 00:44:57.275 --> 00:45:05.545 So I sleep there and I woke up to this across the roof and I say, oh, squirrel. 00:45:05.665 --> 00:45:06.685 Yeah, it's like 00:45:08.935 --> 00:45:09.745 Scrabble, Scrabble, Scrabble. 00:45:09.745 --> 00:45:10.915 I say, not squirrel. 00:45:13.135 --> 00:45:20.035 And I look up at the skylight, there's a fox scrambling as if it's digging. 00:45:21.775 --> 00:45:27.535 At the skylight, and I'm looking up at him up at his belly. 00:45:27.535 --> 00:45:30.355 I've never had that perspective on a fox before. 00:45:30.475 --> 00:45:33.835 In fact, I don't think I've had that perspective on any wild animal ever. 00:45:35.365 --> 00:45:36.265 It's not fully grown. 00:45:36.265 --> 00:45:38.395 It's about a, it's probably about eight months old. 00:45:38.395 --> 00:45:44.065 It's quite skinny, but it's, it's semi adult and it's obsessively 00:45:44.065 --> 00:45:45.475 scrambling at the skylight. 00:45:45.475 --> 00:45:49.525 Like, what do you want you, that's not gonna give it's glass? 00:45:51.385 --> 00:45:52.405 Is it play? 00:45:53.545 --> 00:45:57.055 And then at a certain point it curls around and curls around and 00:45:57.055 --> 00:45:58.705 goes, and it lies down to sleep. 00:45:58.915 --> 00:46:03.745 And I'm looking up at this from underneath at this sleeping fox. 00:46:05.140 --> 00:46:06.160 I'm there for a few days. 00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:08.095 It cra I'm taking pictures. 00:46:08.095 --> 00:46:08.965 I'll, I'll send them to you. 00:46:09.415 --> 00:46:13.765 The third day I realize it's a family up there and they're living up there. 00:46:13.765 --> 00:46:15.174 They're living on the roof. 00:46:16.984 --> 00:46:22.174 Because I guess there's all kinds of stuff to eat falling down on 00:46:22.174 --> 00:46:23.944 there from the various local trees. 00:46:23.944 --> 00:46:26.944 There's probably insects, there's probably spiders, there's probably 00:46:26.944 --> 00:46:28.474 wood lice, there's probably ants. 00:46:28.624 --> 00:46:31.264 Turned out there were a big nest of ants up there. 00:46:31.354 --> 00:46:33.365 And that's what they were scrambling for. 00:46:33.994 --> 00:46:34.115 George Bumann: Mm-hmm. 00:46:34.115 --> 00:46:34.294 And the 00:46:34.294 --> 00:46:37.474 Rupert Isaacson: ants began to fall through the, later in the 00:46:37.474 --> 00:46:42.125 summer the tile, the, the, the, the, the old ceiling and it. 00:46:42.770 --> 00:46:43.070 Turn. 00:46:43.070 --> 00:46:44.270 And now of course they got the time. 00:46:44.450 --> 00:46:46.790 Now my mom curses them because they lift the tiles off. 00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:49.070 The same fox is looking for the ants. 00:46:49.640 --> 00:46:53.059 It it was one of those moments similar to what you described when you realize, 00:46:53.120 --> 00:46:58.459 oh my gosh, there's this whole world going on here in this place that I think 00:46:58.459 --> 00:47:00.919 of, in this entirely human context. 00:47:01.970 --> 00:47:02.660 George Bumann: Mm-hmm. 00:47:02.660 --> 00:47:02.662 Yeah. 00:47:02.689 --> 00:47:04.069 Rupert Isaacson: But it's compared wilderness. 00:47:05.089 --> 00:47:05.390 George Bumann: Yeah. 00:47:06.769 --> 00:47:07.039 Yeah. 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:08.530 It's it's where you find it. 00:47:09.190 --> 00:47:12.430 And I've had some of the most remarkable encounters with wildlife 00:47:12.970 --> 00:47:15.405 in the most unlikely places, you know? 00:47:15.405 --> 00:47:16.000 Can you give us an 00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:16.510 Rupert Isaacson: example? 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:18.580 George Bumann: Gosh. 00:47:19.060 --> 00:47:24.070 Well, a simple one is just knowing that there's a cat on the loose. 00:47:24.550 --> 00:47:28.510 You know, I was hiking with my wife along the, the CNO canal after we'd 00:47:28.570 --> 00:47:30.730 gone to meet her family in Maryland. 00:47:31.420 --> 00:47:34.090 And we just went for a walk on this old railway that had been 00:47:34.240 --> 00:47:35.560 converted to a hiking path. 00:47:36.730 --> 00:47:39.580 And, and the hill kind of drops down the grade, drops down toward the 00:47:39.580 --> 00:47:43.590 canal, and we're at such an angle we couldn't see all the way to the water. 00:47:43.590 --> 00:47:48.300 But all of a sudden, a re small bird just jumps up on a, a stick, maybe, 00:47:48.750 --> 00:47:50.730 you know, half a meter off the ground. 00:47:51.025 --> 00:47:54.540 Cha cha cha cha cha, just making all kinds of noise. 00:47:56.220 --> 00:48:00.390 And I knew in an instant that there was something dangerous. 00:48:00.720 --> 00:48:03.300 Something of concern right close by. 00:48:04.080 --> 00:48:06.960 So we crept closer and looked and looked and finally got a look over 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:11.340 the berm and here's a domestic house cat just, you know, doing 00:48:11.340 --> 00:48:13.860 its thing, hunting along the canal. 00:48:14.910 --> 00:48:18.890 And that's one of the real beauties to me of, of this eavesdropping is not 00:48:18.890 --> 00:48:24.260 only do you have the ability to find animals that you, that were invisible 00:48:24.260 --> 00:48:26.600 before, but you step into their world. 00:48:26.600 --> 00:48:29.510 And our friend Craig is great at, at talking about this, is that 00:48:29.510 --> 00:48:32.900 you, you're not just studying the octopus or the sea ice. 00:48:32.900 --> 00:48:35.090 You're, you're, you're seeing what eats them. 00:48:35.240 --> 00:48:38.690 You're seeing what they run from, you're seeing what they feed on. 00:48:38.870 --> 00:48:40.460 You're seeing where they hide at night. 00:48:40.460 --> 00:48:46.160 You're seeing where they go through the sand in, in, in, you know, stormy periods. 00:48:46.250 --> 00:48:52.160 You just, you, you step into their world and to me that you can't not help but 00:48:52.160 --> 00:48:58.790 begin to be more aware, certainly, but also empathetic for what these wild 00:48:58.790 --> 00:49:01.340 creatures go through to just survive. 00:49:02.390 --> 00:49:06.830 And we, we live very posh lives, very cushy existences 00:49:07.040 --> 00:49:08.900 compared to our ancestors, but. 00:49:09.215 --> 00:49:13.745 If you want a window into that, just look at what your foxes have 00:49:13.745 --> 00:49:15.965 to do to get by to raise their kids. 00:49:16.355 --> 00:49:21.125 Look at what that pigeon, how far that, if you get to identify that one oddly colored 00:49:21.125 --> 00:49:25.835 pigeon and realize, you know, sort of like your friend trying to narrow down where 00:49:25.835 --> 00:49:31.235 the crows were going, you realize that they're traveling over a very vast, you 00:49:31.235 --> 00:49:33.755 know, bit of ground to, to make ends meet. 00:49:34.355 --> 00:49:37.445 And, and all the travails they run into, you know, there's other 00:49:37.445 --> 00:49:40.355 members of their own species that push them off and, and push them 00:49:40.355 --> 00:49:42.095 around, or that they have to avoid. 00:49:42.095 --> 00:49:47.915 You just, you just step into a new world and the place you've always been 00:49:52.085 --> 00:49:52.535 Rupert Isaacson: talking about. 00:49:52.535 --> 00:49:54.215 Craig, you know, one of the 00:49:56.915 --> 00:49:59.495 interesting things that came up in our last conversation, it's 00:49:59.495 --> 00:50:01.055 actually on this, on this podcast. 00:50:01.055 --> 00:50:07.205 So for those listeners, go check out the second podcast with Craig Foster was 00:50:07.315 --> 00:50:15.915 that wellbeing, psychological emotional wellbeing in a human tied up with nature. 00:50:15.975 --> 00:50:19.665 Like, why is it that we feel so good in nature beyond the fact that 00:50:19.665 --> 00:50:22.905 we're our organisms and of course we're designed for planet Earth. 00:50:22.935 --> 00:50:29.625 And so, okay, we're gonna do better out there than we do behind a screen, but. 00:50:31.140 --> 00:50:35.820 This thing of you, you, you talk about the travels they go through, but often 00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:40.290 it seems to me that the natural world really is it That's true abundance 00:50:40.890 --> 00:50:48.930 and that animals, and of course wild people are so competent gaining 00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:54.150 sustenance unless some environmental condition really shuts them down. 00:50:54.150 --> 00:50:58.830 Or someone built a housing estate right where they live or whatever. 00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:00.090 George Bumann: Mm-hmm. 00:51:00.570 --> 00:51:02.550 Rupert Isaacson: That there really is kind of quality of life. 00:51:02.550 --> 00:51:06.660 And we ourselves, as a species feel really good when we are in 00:51:06.660 --> 00:51:09.150 a place of great biodiversity. 00:51:09.390 --> 00:51:13.290 'cause I think that there is something ancestral in us that 00:51:13.290 --> 00:51:15.180 goes, ah, lots of food here. 00:51:15.450 --> 00:51:16.170 I'm Okay. 00:51:16.350 --> 00:51:17.700 Lots of abundance. 00:51:18.410 --> 00:51:21.860 You live in one of those places, you live in Yellowstone. 00:51:23.420 --> 00:51:33.650 What do you feel is the state of the mental health of, say yourself? 00:51:33.650 --> 00:51:38.270 Just take yourself as an example and put yourself in different phases of your 00:51:38.300 --> 00:51:41.060 life, in different times of mental health. 00:51:43.130 --> 00:51:48.590 What do you feel these places of abundance give us? 00:51:49.430 --> 00:51:51.470 What do you notice in the. 00:51:51.830 --> 00:51:55.160 People that are attracted to these places that come, you know, Yellowstone 00:51:55.160 --> 00:51:56.930 is this massive tourist attraction. 00:51:57.470 --> 00:52:03.200 People want to be there even in a day and age of completely sedentary culture. 00:52:03.350 --> 00:52:06.860 And, you know, we're all overweight and we're all this and we're all 00:52:06.860 --> 00:52:12.170 that, but yet we are drawn in vast numbers still to these, these places. 00:52:12.290 --> 00:52:16.940 What do you think is going on with all this and what do you think the locals, 00:52:16.970 --> 00:52:18.920 the wild locals make of us there? 00:52:20.720 --> 00:52:26.900 George Bumann: I think this is a, a wonderful, wonderful question because 00:52:26.900 --> 00:52:30.740 none of us are living in the ideal bubble. 00:52:31.040 --> 00:52:31.430 Mm-hmm. 00:52:31.880 --> 00:52:32.150 Right? 00:52:32.150 --> 00:52:36.620 None of us have the perfect life, and even if we do think of it, you know, 00:52:36.620 --> 00:52:40.100 someone looks across the lawn and sees something better and different that 00:52:40.100 --> 00:52:42.350 they, they think they're missing out on. 00:52:42.350 --> 00:52:46.490 And you know, I, this is, this is one I've thought about a bit. 00:52:46.670 --> 00:52:53.120 You know, I, I feel like the, the high point in my life as far as mental 00:52:53.120 --> 00:53:00.680 health and freedom and appreciation of beauty and the, the feeling of, of 00:53:00.950 --> 00:53:07.550 togetherness with all of the living things in my family, neighbors, fish, birds 00:53:07.610 --> 00:53:09.295 was when I was about seven or eight. 00:53:11.630 --> 00:53:14.450 And I was always out on the docks fishing. 00:53:14.540 --> 00:53:17.240 I was in, you know, we had had about an acre of land, but the, 00:53:17.355 --> 00:53:18.770 the latter half was not moan. 00:53:18.770 --> 00:53:19.970 So it was kind of feral. 00:53:21.290 --> 00:53:22.490 And that was my jungle. 00:53:22.850 --> 00:53:27.800 That was my, that was my Amazon, that was my African Savannah, like that. 00:53:28.010 --> 00:53:32.690 I escaped into that space and there weren't a lot of kids around. 00:53:32.780 --> 00:53:36.380 Not that there weren't in the area and didn't have a, a large class in school. 00:53:36.380 --> 00:53:43.500 But when I came home I had myself, but I had myself perhaps in the best 00:53:43.500 --> 00:53:47.460 way in association with that space. 00:53:48.390 --> 00:53:52.440 So there's constant, I think one of the things that truly 00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:56.430 diverse wild nature offers us is this, this sense of possibility. 00:53:58.470 --> 00:53:58.890 You know? 00:53:58.890 --> 00:54:07.890 So as you become in tune with that space, you see possibilities for the, the, 00:54:08.520 --> 00:54:10.320 you know, Maslow's hierarchy, right? 00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.370 That you as a, as an educator in, in the outdoors leading a backpacking trip 00:54:14.370 --> 00:54:17.460 or an expedition, you'll, you have to worry about the pe people's safety. 00:54:17.460 --> 00:54:18.960 Are they fed, are they hydrated? 00:54:19.170 --> 00:54:22.830 You know, those, those key elements that we need when 00:54:22.830 --> 00:54:26.370 satisfied, give us a sense of calm. 00:54:26.835 --> 00:54:29.655 I know we're, I know dinner's coming at the end of the day, 00:54:29.655 --> 00:54:31.095 I won't go to sleep hungry. 00:54:31.635 --> 00:54:37.395 The sense of possibility for those options is what I feel in nature. 00:54:37.395 --> 00:54:40.485 But interestingly, for myself, the progression was 00:54:43.575 --> 00:54:48.225 society culture molds us in different ways. 00:54:48.975 --> 00:54:52.665 And I would say not always for the better in, in the sense that 00:54:53.415 --> 00:54:58.315 the human world is very inwardly focused in, in a lot of ways. 00:54:58.375 --> 00:55:02.635 Indigenous cultures not so much, you know, of course they're much, they have to be 00:55:02.665 --> 00:55:04.555 because they're directly tied to the land. 00:55:04.585 --> 00:55:08.125 But for those of us in the modern world, we're, we're less 00:55:08.125 --> 00:55:09.475 and less directly connected. 00:55:09.475 --> 00:55:13.615 So it's easy to fall into this, me, me, me, my, my, my, 00:55:13.735 --> 00:55:16.075 our family versus your family. 00:55:16.765 --> 00:55:21.655 And starting in through my early teens, I, I was wanting to fit in 00:55:21.660 --> 00:55:25.315 and, and pleased those around me to do what I thought I should do. 00:55:27.175 --> 00:55:31.645 And even as I got into the university and was very good at my studies, 00:55:32.005 --> 00:55:35.155 I, you know, excelled and was honored for all those things. 00:55:35.155 --> 00:55:40.525 But I, there was this piece in me that wasn't there satiated, it wasn't 00:55:40.525 --> 00:55:49.015 fulfilled in the way those hours of free play and exploration did for me when I 00:55:49.015 --> 00:55:51.415 was in that seven to 8-year-old range. 00:55:52.195 --> 00:55:54.445 And it's taken me a long time to get back to that. 00:55:55.525 --> 00:55:59.335 I think when, honestly, honestly, when we first moved to Yellowstone, 00:55:59.335 --> 00:56:00.805 I was not in a great place. 00:56:01.885 --> 00:56:06.385 I, I, I didn't know what I was supposed to do with my life. 00:56:06.895 --> 00:56:07.645 Quite frankly. 00:56:08.785 --> 00:56:09.925 We'd moved to this new place. 00:56:09.925 --> 00:56:11.095 I knew I needed a break. 00:56:11.095 --> 00:56:14.665 I tried doing illustration work for publications, but the age 00:56:14.665 --> 00:56:16.045 of illustration, it was gone. 00:56:16.555 --> 00:56:20.515 I tried doing some writing that I tried doing watercolor painting. 00:56:20.515 --> 00:56:21.535 I was teaching. 00:56:22.075 --> 00:56:26.635 I was just, there was just this unquenchable longing for something. 00:56:26.635 --> 00:56:27.775 I didn't know what 00:56:30.145 --> 00:56:33.745 I just, and I think a lot of people are in this position where you 00:56:33.745 --> 00:56:38.305 just, you don't know what it is, but you feel something's missing. 00:56:38.755 --> 00:56:46.435 And I think this is very much a part of that very old piece that resides 00:56:46.435 --> 00:56:53.125 deep within us that longs for genuine, supportive community that doesn't 00:56:53.125 --> 00:56:58.315 judge us, that lets us be creative and odd and weird and all those quirky 00:56:58.315 --> 00:57:06.265 ways that lets us explore into our environment without, without parameters. 00:57:06.895 --> 00:57:11.425 And so the Ravens, for me, to be honest, to bring some of this back 00:57:11.425 --> 00:57:19.045 around, were my effort to start recapturing some of my youth. 00:57:19.045 --> 00:57:19.105 I. 00:57:20.215 --> 00:57:26.425 In this non-judgmental, completely open, non-directed way, that was 00:57:27.025 --> 00:57:30.175 the epitome of freedom in many ways. 00:57:30.505 --> 00:57:33.685 And we're not talking about political freedom here or economic freedom. 00:57:33.685 --> 00:57:40.405 I'm talking about personal lived freedom to just wander over that hill, 00:57:41.515 --> 00:57:45.745 to walk through that creek barefooted, just because you want to, not because 00:57:46.255 --> 00:57:49.735 you know, someone says that that is what you should or shouldn't do. 00:57:51.115 --> 00:57:56.575 And these days, I, my physical health is better than it's ever been. 00:57:56.575 --> 00:58:00.385 I think my mental health is, is, is very close to all. 00:58:00.385 --> 00:58:03.325 I'm still, you know, I think we all struggle trying to find 00:58:03.325 --> 00:58:10.645 things that give us a hand or, or a rope to our better selves. 00:58:12.115 --> 00:58:16.315 And, and nature, nature does that. 00:58:16.375 --> 00:58:20.950 I was interviewing the project veterinarian who brought the very first 00:58:21.050 --> 00:58:23.035 wolves down to Yellowstone here recently. 00:58:23.785 --> 00:58:26.785 And I asked him about the physical health of these wolves and he said, 00:58:27.655 --> 00:58:29.875 they're immaculate, they're beautiful. 00:58:29.905 --> 00:58:30.205 Yeah. 00:58:30.205 --> 00:58:31.525 Once in a while they get diseases. 00:58:31.525 --> 00:58:33.685 Parvovirus can canine virus. 00:58:33.685 --> 00:58:38.035 Sometimes they get mange, but nothing compared to the health 00:58:38.035 --> 00:58:40.045 and ailments of domestic animals. 00:58:41.275 --> 00:58:45.595 And so many of the ills of the human world spill over into our pets. 00:58:45.745 --> 00:58:52.795 You can't not have a pet sometimes and not see how our world, it's 00:58:52.795 --> 00:58:55.795 an agreement in, in some respects, but it's not in another, and it, 00:58:57.835 --> 00:59:00.085 and we suffer from some of those same things. 00:59:00.295 --> 00:59:02.095 We are domesticated humans 00:59:04.105 --> 00:59:07.675 and it, it brings a lot of baggage with it, but it's heartening to 00:59:07.675 --> 00:59:11.215 know that nature is that place where we can offload the baggage. 00:59:12.925 --> 00:59:13.645 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting. 00:59:13.645 --> 00:59:16.315 As you were talking there, I was drawing this little diagram, so it started with 00:59:16.315 --> 00:59:18.445 the questions like, is nature optimism? 00:59:19.135 --> 00:59:25.315 And then I wrote under optimism, I wrote belonging question mark. 00:59:25.315 --> 00:59:28.105 And then when you said freedom, I wrote freedom up at the top. 00:59:28.525 --> 00:59:32.365 So then I've ended up with is nature sort of with one of those brackets, 00:59:32.395 --> 00:59:38.185 one of those squiggly swirly brackets, freedom, optimism, belonging. 00:59:39.955 --> 00:59:45.775 In fact, is it possible to have those things really without nature? 00:59:48.595 --> 00:59:52.675 George Bumann: I've never had to answer that exact question, but 00:59:52.675 --> 00:59:56.125 in my, my snap response is no. 00:59:58.735 --> 01:00:00.745 Rupert Isaacson: And it's interesting that you bring up wolves. 01:00:01.495 --> 01:00:05.755 I was lucky enough in the nineties to go and report. 01:00:06.265 --> 01:00:08.995 Very, very early on the Wolf Ry introduction in Yellowstone. 01:00:09.325 --> 01:00:14.935 So I got to see a bit of that, and I've gone back a few times 01:00:14.935 --> 01:00:16.615 and seen how they've thrived. 01:00:17.425 --> 01:00:22.165 But it seems to me that if there's a species that really typifies that 01:00:22.165 --> 01:00:27.415 in a way that almost reflects human society a little bit, it's wolves. 01:00:28.315 --> 01:00:28.885 What? 01:00:29.650 --> 01:00:30.895 Talk to us about that. 01:00:30.895 --> 01:00:31.315 And 01:00:33.650 --> 01:00:36.655 you, you, you live there, you talk about the Lamar Valley, that's sort of the best 01:00:36.655 --> 01:00:40.285 wolf spotting spot in the world now really because they're, they're out there on the 01:00:40.285 --> 01:00:44.815 open ground from the few places you can actually drive in your car and literally 01:00:44.815 --> 01:00:46.195 see them by the side of the road. 01:00:46.195 --> 01:00:46.795 Incredible. 01:00:47.485 --> 01:00:47.725 Yeah. 01:00:47.805 --> 01:00:48.735 Talk to us about wolves. 01:00:51.585 --> 01:00:52.845 George Bumann: Wolves are contentious. 01:00:54.105 --> 01:00:59.475 We have several bills that have been put forward in our state legislature to, in 01:00:59.475 --> 01:01:01.575 whatever ways they can annihilate them. 01:01:02.805 --> 01:01:07.845 Again, you know, it, it won't happen to the success of, of previous 01:01:07.845 --> 01:01:12.135 times of the 19th century because poison is not allowed at this point. 01:01:13.875 --> 01:01:20.625 But I think like we as children who have siblings squabble most, with those 01:01:20.625 --> 01:01:26.445 who are closest to us or most like us, there's the most we have to lose. 01:01:26.445 --> 01:01:32.325 And I think as a social mammal who is both territorial and outspoken, you 01:01:32.325 --> 01:01:34.965 know, unafraid to be seen and speak. 01:01:34.965 --> 01:01:37.785 Its mind howl at you right in your face. 01:01:37.995 --> 01:01:46.275 You know, when you step too close to the den un unawares there is at once 01:01:46.665 --> 01:01:51.885 as indigenous cultures, my nesper friends say that the wolves are how 01:01:51.885 --> 01:01:55.005 we learn to be pit good parents. 01:01:57.075 --> 01:02:01.275 You can see that similarity as, as an analog and inspiration, or 01:02:01.275 --> 01:02:02.925 you can see that as competition. 01:02:04.935 --> 01:02:09.945 And therein lies a lot of the, the beauty in the, the, the travails of, of the world 01:02:09.945 --> 01:02:13.215 of wolves, especially in the context of Yellowstone, where it's not like Northern 01:02:13.215 --> 01:02:18.885 Canada or Alaska or Russia, where you have vast untracked spaces for them to live. 01:02:18.885 --> 01:02:24.705 They're living, you know, as they leave Yellowstone in context with human society. 01:02:26.415 --> 01:02:32.625 But when you see them as individuals and get over some of the mythologies 01:02:32.625 --> 01:02:36.675 that we attach to them, good, bad, or indifferent, and see them for who 01:02:36.675 --> 01:02:42.105 and what they are, they become, in my mind, some of the best teachers. 01:02:43.395 --> 01:02:45.195 They're like us in so many ways. 01:02:45.195 --> 01:02:48.825 And that's the thing I, you know, my art actually is a great, I use 01:02:48.825 --> 01:02:53.655 my art as an excuse to dig deeper into the lives of my subjects. 01:02:53.815 --> 01:02:58.135 What I really try to portray is not a wolf, or not a bear or not a elk. 01:02:58.135 --> 01:02:59.275 It's, it's. 01:03:00.145 --> 01:03:07.105 What is this being who resides in this form thinking, you know, some 01:03:07.105 --> 01:03:11.605 of these pieces take years to, to get to my satisfaction because I'm trying 01:03:11.605 --> 01:03:13.255 to model something that has no shape. 01:03:14.365 --> 01:03:18.985 I'm trying to model what I receive from them as perhaps anthropomorphized 01:03:18.985 --> 01:03:21.175 as it is in some cases. 01:03:21.805 --> 01:03:22.945 What's going through their mind? 01:03:23.155 --> 01:03:28.195 How do they experience this same exact moment as, as compared to me? 01:03:29.695 --> 01:03:34.855 And when you're having a hard day for whatever reason, coworker pissed you 01:03:34.855 --> 01:03:42.445 off, or you you got sick and vomited in the interview or just any, pick your, 01:03:42.685 --> 01:03:47.935 pick your, you know, terrible day and you go outside and you see this wolf 01:03:48.415 --> 01:03:52.555 who's just gotten kicked in the ribs and has three broken ribs and is still 01:03:52.585 --> 01:03:54.895 out there providing for its family. 01:03:56.125 --> 01:04:02.005 It's PAC Mate had its femur crushed, and yet from the air, the biologist 01:04:02.005 --> 01:04:07.495 flying along dart it and would never have known that it only had three legs 01:04:09.505 --> 01:04:15.415 because they just persevere that drive to survive, that drive to persist, 01:04:15.415 --> 01:04:19.045 to drive, to care for your young, to drive, to protect your mate. 01:04:19.525 --> 01:04:26.155 These eternal, deep universal things make you turn around and look at your own. 01:04:26.920 --> 01:04:31.450 Shitty day and think, alright, I don't have really that much to complain about. 01:04:32.980 --> 01:04:36.280 I've got dinner tonight, my sweetie right here. 01:04:37.810 --> 01:04:42.340 You know, I've got all my, my, my bodily appendages in Good. 01:04:42.340 --> 01:04:43.000 What's Netflix? 01:04:43.060 --> 01:04:44.890 Yeah, I've got Netflix. 01:04:46.030 --> 01:04:46.480 Totally. 01:04:46.480 --> 01:04:51.790 So they're a wonderful mirror to us in many ways because the behaviors of 01:04:51.790 --> 01:04:56.710 animals will tell us a lot about ourselves that perhaps we didn't even realize. 01:04:57.970 --> 01:04:58.210 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:04:58.210 --> 01:05:02.590 They seem to meet wolves to be, to typify the best of family. 01:05:02.590 --> 01:05:04.000 Mm-hmm. 01:05:04.085 --> 01:05:05.095 That okay. 01:05:05.170 --> 01:05:08.920 You've got an alpha pair who will have the young, but the entire pack will 01:05:08.920 --> 01:05:11.680 look after the young most of the time. 01:05:12.160 --> 01:05:12.370 Yeah. 01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:17.500 They will fight these territorial battles sometimes to the death, but 01:05:17.500 --> 01:05:19.180 really they're doing it for family. 01:05:20.200 --> 01:05:20.500 Yeah. 01:05:20.740 --> 01:05:28.510 When I was a journalist there, I remember Idaho was also bringing wools back 01:05:28.510 --> 01:05:30.730 in and it got blocked by the state. 01:05:31.420 --> 01:05:33.970 Who withdrew the funding got withdrawn. 01:05:33.970 --> 01:05:36.550 And the ne as you talked about the Nez pe the Nez PE Indians 01:05:36.670 --> 01:05:38.740 stepped up and said, we'll fund it. 01:05:39.580 --> 01:05:43.240 Because for us the wolf is a symbol of family. 01:05:44.410 --> 01:05:44.680 George Bumann: Yeah. 01:05:45.130 --> 01:05:45.400 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:49.780 You are living out there and you are taking people. 01:05:49.780 --> 01:05:50.050 Right? 01:05:50.260 --> 01:05:52.780 So if somebody wanted to, we'll go into this at the end, how people can 01:05:52.780 --> 01:05:57.550 contact you, but people can actually go with you into Yellowstone, right? 01:05:57.550 --> 01:05:58.990 You guide people. 01:05:59.920 --> 01:06:00.250 George Bumann: Yeah. 01:06:00.250 --> 01:06:02.950 I still, I don't do as much as I used to, but a few times a year I teach 01:06:02.950 --> 01:06:05.440 classes and, and things like that. 01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:06.070 So yes. 01:06:06.430 --> 01:06:10.390 Rupert Isaacson: When you are bringing people in, I presume sometimes people 01:06:10.390 --> 01:06:14.020 are coming as families, some people are come, you know, and you are 01:06:14.020 --> 01:06:16.300 showing them these family structures. 01:06:16.300 --> 01:06:20.680 What, what are the insights that people gain? 01:06:22.835 --> 01:06:25.780 What are the things they come away with that they didn't expect perhaps? 01:06:28.240 --> 01:06:31.270 George Bumann: I think one of the, again, good question. 01:06:31.420 --> 01:06:35.830 I think a lot of times the initial takeaways are, they're not doing 01:06:35.830 --> 01:06:36.910 what I thought they would do. 01:06:37.660 --> 01:06:37.960 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:06:38.770 --> 01:06:42.760 George Bumann: They're walking right by a whole group of elk or, you know, 01:06:43.030 --> 01:06:44.920 they're just, they're just laying there. 01:06:46.150 --> 01:06:47.800 Wolf's spend a lot of time laying about. 01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:54.850 And until we really have a chance to, to view them more and view individuals 01:06:54.850 --> 01:06:56.530 and individuals from different packs. 01:06:56.530 --> 01:07:00.640 And do you see this spectrum of, of behaviors that sort of 01:07:00.640 --> 01:07:02.890 calibrates and recalibrates? 01:07:02.890 --> 01:07:08.650 What, those expectations are we just so removed that yes, we have 01:07:08.650 --> 01:07:11.950 dogs and it's easier for us to relate to wolves perhaps that way. 01:07:12.130 --> 01:07:15.190 And you'll hear that, oh my gosh, it look, my dog does that. 01:07:15.190 --> 01:07:18.940 It rolls on its back, or, or it spins in circles before it, it lays down and 01:07:18.940 --> 01:07:23.080 for no reason, well, you get to see here it, you know, in the wild it, the wolves 01:07:23.165 --> 01:07:27.640 doing it, you know, maybe to, to lay the grass down, out there in, in the valley. 01:07:28.360 --> 01:07:32.890 But to see those, some of those tender moments too, I wish I could say I was 01:07:32.890 --> 01:07:37.510 there for this one, but Rick McIntyre maybe told you this story of Wolf 21. 01:07:37.510 --> 01:07:43.540 He's like the all time am heavyweight champion of, of wolf fights. 01:07:43.570 --> 01:07:48.130 You know, he, he at one point ran headlong by himself into 01:07:48.160 --> 01:07:50.620 the, the center of an enemy pack. 01:07:51.970 --> 01:07:55.540 And his pack subsequently rallied around him and they drove off this, 01:07:55.540 --> 01:07:57.550 this enemy to the Druid peak pack. 01:07:57.880 --> 01:08:02.020 And yet this wolf that is so fierce and so strident in his defense of his 01:08:02.020 --> 01:08:08.170 family, can turn around and play with his puppies, with abandon, you know, 01:08:08.170 --> 01:08:11.500 let those puppies attack him and knock him to the ground and bite him and 01:08:11.770 --> 01:08:16.000 put their paws over his back, which is something you do not do to a alpha wolf. 01:08:16.060 --> 01:08:22.180 You know, you, you don't dominate or, or symbol that, with these behaviors that 01:08:22.180 --> 01:08:27.940 this father freely lets his kids do, bite him on the ankles, you know, just 01:08:28.090 --> 01:08:34.030 he falls to the ground and feigns, you know, defeat so that these children of his 01:08:34.090 --> 01:08:39.790 can experience something of, of what he can teach them just by being who he is. 01:08:39.790 --> 01:08:40.030 So I, 01:08:42.250 --> 01:08:46.660 it's seeing these, these moments and these, these little windows 01:08:46.660 --> 01:08:53.980 into just how similar, very much on parallel tracks in life. 01:08:54.580 --> 01:08:56.440 You know, good dad plays with his kids. 01:08:56.440 --> 01:09:01.060 A good mom reads them at at bedtime and they, they really inspire. 01:09:01.600 --> 01:09:08.800 And I think people come away from that changed how, how can I be a better dad? 01:09:09.040 --> 01:09:09.760 I do it too. 01:09:09.850 --> 01:09:15.070 You know, it's like, man, it didn't run off and get another bone at the carcass. 01:09:15.130 --> 01:09:19.060 It actually stayed there and it, it greeted that puppy 01:09:19.060 --> 01:09:20.470 and played with that puppy. 01:09:20.470 --> 01:09:26.820 And, and even if for five minutes, can I do that with our dog to improve his 01:09:26.820 --> 01:09:32.550 life and just, just stop after I come in the door and I've got all these things 01:09:32.550 --> 01:09:34.470 in this to-do list in my head yet? 01:09:35.070 --> 01:09:39.600 No, just, just give, give five minutes, give 10 minutes. 01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:42.030 It's, it's nothing really, but it means the world. 01:09:42.690 --> 01:09:42.990 Yeah. 01:09:44.685 --> 01:09:48.645 Rupert Isaacson: You, I watched a Ted talk that you did in which you, and we 01:09:48.645 --> 01:09:50.205 have not talked about your sculpture yet. 01:09:50.895 --> 01:09:55.365 So listeners, George is an extremely stonly good sculptor. 01:09:55.725 --> 01:09:59.505 Won a bazillion awards and a bazillion shows and look him up. 01:09:59.565 --> 01:10:01.845 We'll give you web things at the end. 01:10:01.845 --> 01:10:05.235 If you wanna pay a million dollars for sculptures, you should. 01:10:05.265 --> 01:10:05.805 'cause they're great. 01:10:06.375 --> 01:10:08.475 But you were sculpting 01:10:10.695 --> 01:10:15.645 out of clay on stage a wolf, but I remember you saying, 01:10:16.155 --> 01:10:18.165 or did I, did I see it right? 01:10:18.165 --> 01:10:18.675 Is it a wolf? 01:10:18.675 --> 01:10:22.605 And you turned it into a coyote and then you turn it back into a wolf, 01:10:22.605 --> 01:10:26.565 then you turn it into a Labrador, then you say, no, it's definitely a wolf. 01:10:27.135 --> 01:10:28.815 And it's, is it a she wolf? 01:10:28.845 --> 01:10:30.165 And then you cocked the leg. 01:10:31.155 --> 01:10:31.725 It was great. 01:10:31.785 --> 01:10:36.675 Of the wire structure and then you was No, it's actually is a she wolf. 01:10:36.675 --> 01:10:41.475 And then you, and you told a story, which I found very inspiring 01:10:41.575 --> 01:10:42.595 about motherhood. 01:10:43.675 --> 01:10:43.975 George Bumann: Hmm. 01:10:44.395 --> 01:10:46.585 Rupert Isaacson: Can you tell us that story please? 01:10:47.755 --> 01:10:49.285 George Bumann: Yeah, yeah. 01:10:49.285 --> 01:10:52.195 And it's, it's a good one because it's, it was one where I was out 01:10:52.195 --> 01:10:56.425 with a family and it was midsummer. 01:10:56.455 --> 01:11:00.585 So the first week of June July in Lamar Valley. 01:11:00.855 --> 01:11:03.045 And this family dearly wanted to see wolves. 01:11:03.585 --> 01:11:06.345 And so I'd taken them to a place that overlooked. 01:11:07.095 --> 01:11:13.965 The route through which the, the local wolf pack took to get to their den. 01:11:14.685 --> 01:11:19.815 So you'd see Cummings and goings potentially all day long, but at that 01:11:19.815 --> 01:11:26.445 time of the year, it's time for the puppies to really gain their exposure to 01:11:26.445 --> 01:11:28.485 the wider world, you know, here to four. 01:11:28.485 --> 01:11:33.075 By early July they've lived in the den and food have been brought to 01:11:33.075 --> 01:11:35.505 them and toys have been brought to them and the families visited them 01:11:35.505 --> 01:11:37.035 there and taken care of them there. 01:11:38.535 --> 01:11:43.275 But there comes a point where you have to get out into the world and see what it's 01:11:43.275 --> 01:11:47.205 really like and who you have to contend with in the situations you run into. 01:11:49.035 --> 01:11:50.715 So, explain that to the family. 01:11:50.715 --> 01:11:53.415 This is the place where, you know, we could see the Druid wolves coming 01:11:53.415 --> 01:11:57.075 and going from the den, you know, hear that often the places they cross 01:11:57.075 --> 01:12:00.135 the river and in the distance, you know, some of the trails they used. 01:12:00.135 --> 01:12:01.575 So keep your eyes open. 01:12:01.575 --> 01:12:08.475 And we were there for a little while and at one point the daughter says, there's a 01:12:08.475 --> 01:12:11.325 wolf over there and we're on this bluff. 01:12:11.325 --> 01:12:15.795 That sort of drops down to first the road, then a small creek that flows into 01:12:15.795 --> 01:12:17.805 the Lamar River and then the Lamar River. 01:12:18.765 --> 01:12:23.025 And along the, the edge of this same bluff was a wolf. 01:12:23.025 --> 01:12:23.715 She was right. 01:12:23.805 --> 01:12:25.425 She, she was entirely right. 01:12:25.425 --> 01:12:28.545 It was maybe a quarter mile from us, half a mile. 01:12:28.635 --> 01:12:29.325 I can't remember. 01:12:29.415 --> 01:12:33.585 'cause we were looking through spotting scopes, but it wasn't just any wolf. 01:12:34.590 --> 01:12:40.410 This was the Alpha female, the famous Wolf, 42, the Cinderella Wolf depicted 01:12:40.410 --> 01:12:44.850 on multiple television programs quickly. 01:12:44.850 --> 01:12:46.110 Why was it a Cinderella wolf? 01:12:46.800 --> 01:12:52.620 She was dubbed the Cinderella wolf because when the wolf were returned in 1995, 01:12:52.620 --> 01:12:57.450 as you experienced, they were brought as much as they could in family groups. 01:12:58.500 --> 01:13:03.120 And when she was brought down with her family, one of the other quote 01:13:03.120 --> 01:13:06.660 unquote family members, as it turns out, we now know genetically 01:13:06.660 --> 01:13:09.540 was not a pure sibling to her. 01:13:10.765 --> 01:13:15.600 And as shown by Bob Landis' footage in some of the National Geographic films 01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:21.510 early on that came out, she and her other sisters and even her mother were brutally 01:13:22.830 --> 01:13:25.740 terrorized by this wicked stepsister. 01:13:26.160 --> 01:13:29.580 She drove her mother outta the pack, drove a couple of her sisters outta 01:13:29.580 --> 01:13:34.800 the pack, drove Wolf 42 outta the pack, and ultimately they got sick of it. 01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:36.240 This was the, this 01:13:36.240 --> 01:13:36.780 Rupert Isaacson: was the she wolf. 01:13:36.780 --> 01:13:37.680 I remember hearing about this. 01:13:37.680 --> 01:13:40.320 You actually went around killing the cubs of some of the other ones. 01:13:40.410 --> 01:13:40.890 Is that right? 01:13:40.890 --> 01:13:41.340 Correct, 01:13:41.400 --> 01:13:41.820 George Bumann: yes. 01:13:41.850 --> 01:13:49.050 40 Wolf, 40 was her number would went to the year before and killed 40 twos pups. 01:13:50.370 --> 01:13:53.820 And apparently she highly unusual behavior among wolves too. 01:13:53.850 --> 01:13:55.050 Very unusual. 01:13:55.110 --> 01:13:56.970 Very unusual to kill. 01:13:57.405 --> 01:14:01.275 Pups or any individual within your own pack, that is very 01:14:01.485 --> 01:14:02.865 get so in any species unusual. 01:14:03.435 --> 01:14:04.155 Yes. 01:14:04.515 --> 01:14:04.905 Right. 01:14:04.905 --> 01:14:09.225 We, we don't have the corner on that, but it's far more rare, I would 01:14:09.225 --> 01:14:11.415 say, even than in our population. 01:14:11.415 --> 01:14:16.485 So 42 was not gonna take it as it seems is from what we understand. 01:14:16.665 --> 01:14:22.145 She and perhaps one of her adult daughters and maybe a couple others, put their 01:14:22.145 --> 01:14:24.965 paws down, said Not this time sweetie. 01:14:25.595 --> 01:14:30.005 And they beat her up badly and she ultimately died of her injuries. 01:14:30.755 --> 01:14:35.945 So this is kind of the pretext to her that morning, but also 01:14:35.945 --> 01:14:40.265 her rise and her ascendance to be the alpha female of that pack. 01:14:40.265 --> 01:14:44.855 She was a, a strong leader, but she, if I can use a human 01:14:44.855 --> 01:14:46.535 term, was, was compassionate. 01:14:47.165 --> 01:14:47.405 Mm. 01:14:47.495 --> 01:14:52.415 You know, even, even as an alpha, they don't always lead from the front, you 01:14:52.415 --> 01:14:54.005 know, and she would lead from the back. 01:14:54.005 --> 01:14:56.735 Sometimes she would lead from the middle of the pack when they were traveling. 01:14:58.145 --> 01:15:03.605 And at the time we saw her this morning with this family, she was eight years old. 01:15:04.895 --> 01:15:10.215 Now, keep in mind, this is almost three times the normal lifespan of a, a regular 01:15:10.215 --> 01:15:11.895 wolf in the population at that time. 01:15:12.495 --> 01:15:18.255 So within her was this accumulated wisdom of life 01:15:20.505 --> 01:15:23.445 and that plays into the events that unfolded in a really. 01:15:23.955 --> 01:15:30.195 Beautiful way that I thankfully realized then, but even more so now as a parent. 01:15:32.535 --> 01:15:38.655 And as we watched 42 stood on that bluff and she at one point looked behind her, 01:15:38.805 --> 01:15:43.695 which if you know anything about animal behavior, was often a, a, a sign quite 01:15:43.695 --> 01:15:46.095 universal, one that someone else is there. 01:15:46.725 --> 01:15:50.385 She looked back into the forest and outta that forest came five little 01:15:50.385 --> 01:15:59.505 puppies just clamoring tiny little characters, you know, just 7, 8, 9 weeks 01:15:59.505 --> 01:16:02.205 old, however old they were very young. 01:16:03.825 --> 01:16:09.585 And they joined at her heels as if to say, okay, now what mom? 01:16:10.995 --> 01:16:15.855 And she gave the signal, whatever that signal was, and they descended the 01:16:15.855 --> 01:16:20.025 bluff down toward the road and the park rangers stopped traffic so that the, 01:16:20.115 --> 01:16:22.695 the family could cross the, the road. 01:16:23.055 --> 01:16:28.155 And it was hysterical because it was late enough in mourning that the sun had 01:16:28.155 --> 01:16:30.705 been hitting the asphalt and it was warm. 01:16:31.065 --> 01:16:35.715 And I noticed as these puppies were dancing across the pavement of the road, 01:16:35.865 --> 01:16:38.895 that they were kind of like picking up their paws in this funny ways. 01:16:38.895 --> 01:16:41.355 If they had something stuck to them, when, in fact, I think it was just 01:16:41.475 --> 01:16:47.115 the heat of the, the road in the, the morning sun was a new sensation to them. 01:16:47.240 --> 01:16:47.590 Right. 01:16:47.685 --> 01:16:50.415 And they get across the road, it's like, woo, they made it, 01:16:50.475 --> 01:16:51.825 there are three big obstacles. 01:16:51.855 --> 01:16:54.375 The road, the creek, and then the river. 01:16:55.365 --> 01:16:56.325 And phew. 01:16:56.385 --> 01:16:56.595 Okay. 01:16:56.595 --> 01:16:59.895 So they, they go across and they hit Soda Butte Creek. 01:17:01.035 --> 01:17:04.455 And mom is now joined by two of her adult daughters. 01:17:04.455 --> 01:17:09.555 So auntie one and auntie two join, and the adults go to the Ford, the crossing 01:17:09.555 --> 01:17:11.685 place of the creek that they usually use. 01:17:12.645 --> 01:17:15.465 And the three adults cross the creek. 01:17:16.155 --> 01:17:18.435 And the pups aren't sure about this whole thing. 01:17:18.435 --> 01:17:21.105 They're, you know, they're very apprehensive about 01:17:21.105 --> 01:17:22.275 stepping into the water. 01:17:22.275 --> 01:17:24.165 They're kind of exhibiting this indecision. 01:17:24.165 --> 01:17:25.125 But at 1.1 01:17:25.125 --> 01:17:28.215 of 'em just leaps in and then they all jump in, you know, but the flow 01:17:28.215 --> 01:17:31.905 quickly takes them, you know, and, and most of them get out, but one 01:17:31.905 --> 01:17:33.645 gets washed down like a hundred yards. 01:17:33.735 --> 01:17:36.435 And we're, you know, us watching we're like, oh my gosh, 01:17:36.435 --> 01:17:38.385 did, did that puppy make it? 01:17:38.385 --> 01:17:41.325 Did it just, did we literally just watch this puppy drowned. 01:17:41.595 --> 01:17:46.755 And, you know, pretty soon out comes this pup onto the far side of the bank 01:17:46.845 --> 01:17:50.655 and it just, in that beautiful morning light, it shakes off and there's just 01:17:50.655 --> 01:17:58.965 this prismatic spl you just spray of, of fractured light that, that sort 01:17:58.965 --> 01:18:03.195 of heralded, this youngster making it, getting back with its siblings. 01:18:03.555 --> 01:18:03.795 Whew. 01:18:04.425 --> 01:18:05.655 Boy, that was a big deal. 01:18:05.655 --> 01:18:06.975 Hope we don't have to do that again. 01:18:08.085 --> 01:18:11.055 So they made it through the second big obstacle. 01:18:11.865 --> 01:18:14.115 Then they came to the third, which was even bigger. 01:18:14.115 --> 01:18:15.795 Yet it was the Lamar River. 01:18:16.635 --> 01:18:22.185 And even in mid-summer throughout most of the history, that is still at 01:18:22.335 --> 01:18:27.555 high water or at least higher water than normal as far as the year goes. 01:18:28.575 --> 01:18:32.745 So per crossing the creek, the adults take them to the Ford of the river. 01:18:34.335 --> 01:18:38.265 And as they're standing there, the adults, you know, sort of survey, 01:18:38.265 --> 01:18:41.835 got all the pups it seems like, and they stride out across the flow. 01:18:42.495 --> 01:18:46.395 They make it to the other side and they look back and all at once, this one black 01:18:46.395 --> 01:18:53.386 pup just says, to hell with this, this is a fool's errand if I've ever seen one. 01:18:53.625 --> 01:18:57.645 And it starts walking up its side of the river upstream and all the other pups 01:18:57.645 --> 01:19:01.875 join it, and you can, you know, totally anthropomorphizing, but there's something 01:19:01.875 --> 01:19:06.555 within the wolves that you, you know, you can feel that, okay, this isn't working. 01:19:06.555 --> 01:19:10.575 But to me it was like G kids, you know, like we've all had that, you 01:19:10.575 --> 01:19:13.245 know, it's like you're trying to shuttle them from point A to B and 01:19:13.245 --> 01:19:17.895 they get stuck with friends or you know, the dandelion next to the path 01:19:17.895 --> 01:19:20.205 and come on, I have an agenda for you. 01:19:20.205 --> 01:19:21.435 And it just wasn't working. 01:19:21.735 --> 01:19:25.005 So back across the river, the adults went, they gather up the puppies, 01:19:25.155 --> 01:19:29.265 they bring 'em back to the Ford, they cross again, they turn, look 01:19:29.265 --> 01:19:31.275 back, and off the pups go again. 01:19:33.495 --> 01:19:38.535 And this went on and on until they start, they start moving up around 01:19:38.535 --> 01:19:43.215 a, a bend of the river to the point where we can't see them anymore. 01:19:44.355 --> 01:19:45.465 So we don't know. 01:19:45.780 --> 01:19:52.500 What's going on in the 10 minutes goes by, 15, half hour, 45 minutes goes by, 01:19:52.500 --> 01:19:57.150 and at some point, all of a sudden we see one wolf head, a second wolf head 01:19:57.150 --> 01:20:01.740 above the sage brush, and then they start moving into where we can see them better. 01:20:01.740 --> 01:20:03.810 And behind them are all five pups. 01:20:05.040 --> 01:20:05.730 They made it. 01:20:05.850 --> 01:20:09.570 And so then they trundled on across the valley to their traditional 01:20:09.570 --> 01:20:13.080 rendezvous site, which is kind of a, a, a traditional gathering place, but 01:20:13.080 --> 01:20:17.850 also a babysitting site for the pups to start learning what it's like to live in 01:20:18.930 --> 01:20:21.330 the Lamar Valley, the open, wild world. 01:20:21.480 --> 01:20:24.960 But one of the most beautiful things to me that ties into that comment 01:20:24.960 --> 01:20:30.870 you made about how this is such a statement on motherhood is every time 01:20:30.870 --> 01:20:36.570 she went back to get those pups, she would pick up something in her mouth. 01:20:38.700 --> 01:20:42.750 Sometimes it, it was a rock, like literally would pick up a rock with her 01:20:42.750 --> 01:20:48.000 teeth or a stick, and she would take that around to each one of the puppies 01:20:48.540 --> 01:20:51.180 as if to say, I've got something for you. 01:20:52.925 --> 01:20:53.850 You, you want it? 01:20:54.180 --> 01:20:55.170 This is really good. 01:20:55.770 --> 01:20:56.400 Do you want it? 01:20:56.760 --> 01:20:59.610 You know, I, I've done this with my own son, with gummy worms to get 01:20:59.610 --> 01:21:00.900 him to the top of the mountains. 01:21:01.775 --> 01:21:02.125 Right. 01:21:02.755 --> 01:21:04.125 He's just like learning from the wolf. 01:21:04.205 --> 01:21:05.125 I would never use such a bribe. 01:21:05.195 --> 01:21:05.485 Okay. 01:21:05.715 --> 01:21:06.006 Yeah, yeah. 01:21:06.011 --> 01:21:10.530 You gotta gotta lure you along somehow with something that, that takes 01:21:10.530 --> 01:21:12.780 your mind off of this, this hurdle. 01:21:13.020 --> 01:21:20.670 And, and she did it, this wisdom within this mother of seeing so many 01:21:20.820 --> 01:21:27.690 difficulties and successes, bringing that all to bear around this vital task 01:21:27.750 --> 01:21:34.230 of cultivating the next generation of hunters, of soldiers, of caregivers. 01:21:34.920 --> 01:21:36.480 And she did it in spades. 01:21:36.510 --> 01:21:40.920 It was just, it still is so touching to me that story. 01:21:40.920 --> 01:21:45.990 And as it turned out, she was killed by another wolf pack later in the year. 01:21:46.560 --> 01:21:51.510 So this would be her last litter of puppies that she would ever have. 01:21:52.710 --> 01:22:03.690 And listening to Wolf 21, her mate, how and how and how for her that February was. 01:22:05.220 --> 01:22:06.210 I can still hear it. 01:22:09.150 --> 01:22:16.530 And I think to me, the sculptures, the viewing, the book, the, all these things 01:22:16.530 --> 01:22:20.070 are just excuses to try to peel back, 01:22:22.350 --> 01:22:24.240 what did that mean for me? 01:22:25.230 --> 01:22:27.390 What did that mean Then what does it mean to me now? 01:22:27.390 --> 01:22:29.220 What, what does that teach us? 01:22:31.260 --> 01:22:33.990 And that's nature to me. 01:22:33.990 --> 01:22:34.890 It's infinite. 01:22:35.520 --> 01:22:36.330 It is, 01:22:38.490 --> 01:22:40.380 it is freedom. 01:22:41.130 --> 01:22:42.270 It is joy. 01:22:42.330 --> 01:22:43.590 It is obligation. 01:22:43.590 --> 01:22:45.000 It's tragedy. 01:22:45.000 --> 01:22:51.480 It's, it's, it's everything you can possibly imagine rolled into one. 01:22:52.230 --> 01:22:56.130 And it gives us, it just gives us inspiration, 01:22:56.130 --> 01:22:59.970 perspective, options, and yeah. 01:23:00.600 --> 01:23:01.620 I start running outta words. 01:23:01.620 --> 01:23:03.330 It just, the vastness. 01:23:03.330 --> 01:23:04.020 That's why I went to 01:23:04.170 --> 01:23:04.380 Rupert Isaacson: words. 01:23:04.380 --> 01:23:04.890 Don't cut it. 01:23:04.890 --> 01:23:05.220 Yeah. 01:23:05.550 --> 01:23:11.460 It it, it's so interesting that we are all animals vocalize or many of them do. 01:23:12.000 --> 01:23:13.860 We have this larynx so you know. 01:23:14.220 --> 01:23:14.310 Mm-hmm. 01:23:14.610 --> 01:23:16.650 They call us homo sapien sapiens. 01:23:17.160 --> 01:23:19.259 But that's just means the thinking ape. 01:23:19.259 --> 01:23:22.349 That's everything with a brain thinks there's nothing special 01:23:22.530 --> 01:23:23.789 to humans about thinking. 01:23:23.999 --> 01:23:25.019 But we do speak. 01:23:25.365 --> 01:23:25.785 George Bumann: Mm-hmm. 01:23:26.940 --> 01:23:30.389 Rupert Isaacson: So were the ultra vocalists and yet words fail us. 01:23:32.039 --> 01:23:36.739 If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm guessing you're somebody 01:23:36.749 --> 01:23:41.729 that, like me, loves to read books about not just how people have achieved 01:23:41.739 --> 01:23:47.739 self actualization, but particularly about the relationship with nature. 01:23:48.189 --> 01:23:51.369 Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything. 01:23:52.109 --> 01:23:55.059 And I'd like to draw your attention to my books. 01:23:55.069 --> 01:23:59.749 If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps 01:23:59.749 --> 01:24:04.209 you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy 01:24:04.909 --> 01:24:09.879 and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered, 01:24:09.939 --> 01:24:12.089 what started Live Free Ride Free. 01:24:12.109 --> 01:24:15.889 And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing 01:24:15.889 --> 01:24:18.379 Land, which tells the story of. 01:24:19.084 --> 01:24:24.474 My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people 01:24:24.474 --> 01:24:28.634 there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned. 01:24:28.884 --> 01:24:30.144 Come on that adventure with me. 01:24:30.169 --> 01:24:34.609 George Bumann: That's why I returned to art, honestly, Rupert, that I felt 01:24:34.609 --> 01:24:40.909 so much from this place when I let, when I gave into it and quit asking 01:24:40.909 --> 01:24:42.889 myself, is this my career trajectory? 01:24:42.889 --> 01:24:43.879 Am I supposed to do this? 01:24:43.879 --> 01:24:45.079 Is this gonna help my resume? 01:24:45.079 --> 01:24:46.519 Is this all that bullshit? 01:24:47.659 --> 01:24:48.799 I just let go. 01:24:51.079 --> 01:24:53.929 You experience things that you will never expect. 01:24:54.679 --> 01:24:57.739 You know, there is a time when I would be working on a black bear sculpture, 01:24:57.739 --> 01:25:03.229 let's say, and I would be just, you know, driving, you know, striving to find that 01:25:03.229 --> 01:25:07.519 black bear so I could finish the sculpture as I often do outside in the field. 01:25:07.999 --> 01:25:09.259 And I'd never find the bear. 01:25:10.909 --> 01:25:14.299 But when I let go, I'd bring the sculpture in case I saw the bear, I would see 01:25:14.299 --> 01:25:16.609 the moose with her fawn or her calf. 01:25:18.409 --> 01:25:20.449 I would see the badger feeding. 01:25:20.449 --> 01:25:21.019 Its young. 01:25:21.799 --> 01:25:25.459 I'd find all these other things that I could not have possibly planned that 01:25:25.459 --> 01:25:29.389 were so infinitely better than what I thought I should be doing and finding. 01:25:30.619 --> 01:25:32.269 And that's not just for wildlife sightings. 01:25:32.269 --> 01:25:34.069 This is, this is for my day. 01:25:34.909 --> 01:25:36.919 Like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? 01:25:36.979 --> 01:25:40.159 I'm so sick and tired of office work and staring at this screen. 01:25:41.269 --> 01:25:42.889 My wife and I say, 10 minutes. 01:25:43.519 --> 01:25:44.179 10 minutes. 01:25:44.209 --> 01:25:45.079 It's always worth it. 01:25:46.069 --> 01:25:47.449 Okay, I can do 10 minutes. 01:25:47.509 --> 01:25:51.289 And of course, you end up spending an hour 'cause the ants lead you over to 01:25:51.289 --> 01:25:54.859 this trail that they've made that goes under the, the log over there and then 01:25:54.859 --> 01:25:58.189 the, then this, a bull snake takes off from there and you can see where it's 01:25:58.189 --> 01:26:02.329 trying to check out where the, the magpie nest is or the the robin Nest. 01:26:03.109 --> 01:26:07.399 And it just takes you out of that world that you've built around yourself 01:26:08.599 --> 01:26:11.749 and just helps you chill out, man. 01:26:12.469 --> 01:26:16.459 Like, look around, enjoy, relax, breathe. 01:26:17.389 --> 01:26:18.859 And we're the better for it. 01:26:19.864 --> 01:26:21.814 But it just seems so hard sometimes. 01:26:22.594 --> 01:26:27.514 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think you talk about sound soundscapes 01:26:31.174 --> 01:26:36.874 and that sound really brought you in to this wild place, and that 01:26:36.874 --> 01:26:43.114 by learning sounds and what sounds might mean we can learn so much more 01:26:43.144 --> 01:26:50.944 about what's around us and back to the way we, our species make sound 01:26:51.874 --> 01:26:51.964 George Bumann: mm-hmm. 01:26:52.564 --> 01:26:53.884 Rupert Isaacson: Is we make it through story. 01:26:54.694 --> 01:27:00.154 I, I've been, and I've been lucky enough to live with koan, bushman, hunter 01:27:00.154 --> 01:27:01.924 gatherers in, in the Kalahari boat. 01:27:01.924 --> 01:27:05.704 That's actually how I know Greg and through that work and so on and, and 01:27:05.754 --> 01:27:07.464 story's everything, story's the hunt. 01:27:08.304 --> 01:27:09.804 It's the gathering, but it's healing. 01:27:10.764 --> 01:27:12.654 Particularly what story is, is healing. 01:27:13.194 --> 01:27:15.224 And we're funky monkeys. 01:27:16.214 --> 01:27:22.394 We're sort of half bonobo, half love and peace and love making and 01:27:22.484 --> 01:27:24.944 flowers and Jefferson airplane. 01:27:25.514 --> 01:27:31.864 And we are half chimpanzee, gangster up, gonna rip fucking head off. 01:27:32.494 --> 01:27:35.824 And how do we bring these two sides of ourselves together? 01:27:35.824 --> 01:27:38.734 And of course, in a wild human context. 01:27:39.349 --> 01:27:43.069 We have the shaman, we have the healer at the center of the culture. 01:27:43.099 --> 01:27:44.229 And what is that? 01:27:44.229 --> 01:27:48.769 But story, you know, you bring your you bring your dilemma doesn't have to be 01:27:48.769 --> 01:27:51.979 an ailment to the healer and the healer. 01:27:52.369 --> 01:27:53.149 That's a story. 01:27:53.749 --> 01:27:57.379 And then the healer goes into the spirit world, goes into an 01:27:57.379 --> 01:28:01.549 altered set of consciousness and goes and talks to our ancestors. 01:28:01.549 --> 01:28:03.469 Or he talks about climbing a rope. 01:28:03.469 --> 01:28:04.399 That's very interesting. 01:28:04.429 --> 01:28:09.469 Earlier, poked up my ears because all the good healers I met in the Kalahari 01:28:09.469 --> 01:28:12.709 talked about climbing the rope to God's village when they're in trance 01:28:13.279 --> 01:28:17.899 and seeing this great interconnected web that they climb and then they get 01:28:17.899 --> 01:28:22.849 a series of instructions and then they bring that back and create a new story. 01:28:23.989 --> 01:28:25.339 And then you go out into that new story. 01:28:25.339 --> 01:28:27.859 Now there you are in that wild area. 01:28:27.859 --> 01:28:36.759 But one of the things which I think we all feel to some degree in the US unless we're 01:28:36.759 --> 01:28:41.169 living in a place like New Mexico where there's a really, really strong indigenous 01:28:41.169 --> 01:28:44.559 culture where the people who are always on the land are still on the land, 01:28:46.959 --> 01:28:50.589 there's often a sense of are, but the people are missing. 01:28:51.579 --> 01:28:57.369 And this idea of pristine wilderness, we know is a complete illusion. 01:28:57.969 --> 01:29:01.509 There were always people there that people got cleared out to make. 01:29:02.199 --> 01:29:03.519 To make it a national park. 01:29:03.639 --> 01:29:05.769 It's the same, same story in Africa, by the way. 01:29:06.879 --> 01:29:06.969 Mm-hmm. 01:29:07.269 --> 01:29:10.209 And of course when we go into the city where we say there is no wild, 01:29:10.209 --> 01:29:13.719 as you pointed out earlier, we're surrounded by the wild in the city. 01:29:14.049 --> 01:29:19.689 We are of the place, but yet when we go into a place like Yellowstone, 01:29:19.689 --> 01:29:24.219 because the original people, the Nez PEs as you, as you pointed 01:29:24.219 --> 01:29:26.079 out, they're not there anymore. 01:29:26.889 --> 01:29:29.129 And there's a pretty thorough going genocide. 01:29:29.129 --> 01:29:29.369 Yeah. 01:29:29.489 --> 01:29:31.409 You know, we gotta call it what it is. 01:29:31.409 --> 01:29:34.529 And I'm a product of the colonial experience myself, my family 01:29:34.529 --> 01:29:36.359 are South Africans and Yeah. 01:29:36.419 --> 01:29:36.629 Yeah. 01:29:36.629 --> 01:29:40.439 I mean, we all participated, our ancestors all participated in this. 01:29:46.229 --> 01:29:50.579 And we are tame people now and we go into the wild for healing. 01:29:54.209 --> 01:29:59.279 But that story, that wild story is still there for us. 01:30:00.419 --> 01:30:00.599 Mm-hmm. 01:30:01.109 --> 01:30:07.439 Do you, this is more speculative now, but as you go forward into the next 01:30:07.439 --> 01:30:11.429 phase, you've written this really good book, you do this amazing art. 01:30:11.639 --> 01:30:17.519 You take people into the wilderness, you help them to interpret what they 01:30:17.519 --> 01:30:22.589 see you, you help people to heal themselves in the stressful city 01:30:22.589 --> 01:30:24.359 by noticing the wild around them. 01:30:26.609 --> 01:30:27.929 Where are we going? 01:30:29.279 --> 01:30:32.624 As a species with this, we're going more into ai. 01:30:37.394 --> 01:30:39.944 We're go, you know, you go to a place like Yellowstone, but the 01:30:40.124 --> 01:30:41.504 original people, they're not there. 01:30:44.534 --> 01:30:48.014 One could say that's a very pessimistic thing. 01:30:48.194 --> 01:30:53.924 Then you talk about nature gives you options and I take that as optimism. 01:30:54.434 --> 01:30:59.384 And there have actually been a lot of recent and I've, I've been involved in 01:30:59.384 --> 01:31:01.334 some of them as a human rights activist. 01:31:02.324 --> 01:31:06.464 Big wins by indigenous people in the last 30 years as almost 01:31:06.464 --> 01:31:09.884 like a slowly rumbling moment. 01:31:09.884 --> 01:31:15.944 Momentum that from the old days of just wipe 'em out to build McDonald's. 01:31:15.974 --> 01:31:20.744 You know, to now know indigenous people are beginning to get the 01:31:20.744 --> 01:31:22.964 land back and change things. 01:31:22.964 --> 01:31:26.774 And what else is wiped out, say from yellow and the wolves 01:31:26.774 --> 01:31:28.454 eradicated at their back. 01:31:28.454 --> 01:31:28.455 Back. 01:31:29.354 --> 01:31:29.564 George Bumann: Yeah. 01:31:29.834 --> 01:31:30.974 Rupert Isaacson: Are we as a 01:31:30.974 --> 01:31:32.474 George Bumann: species, rewilding 01:31:35.444 --> 01:31:38.354 some of us are not enough. 01:31:39.584 --> 01:31:44.029 Really that's why I spent three and a half years on this book. 01:31:44.569 --> 01:31:48.589 I just certainly could have done far better things with three and a half years. 01:31:48.589 --> 01:31:55.789 But I saw how transformative the experience of wildness. 01:31:56.134 --> 01:32:01.054 Was for people, you know, tens of thousands of folks I've had the 01:32:01.054 --> 01:32:05.464 pleasure of sharing Yellowstone with. 01:32:06.724 --> 01:32:15.124 And you see the reaction and you feel it because you felt it yourself that they 01:32:15.124 --> 01:32:20.614 are not gonna be able to articulate this, but by God, they sure as hell felt it. 01:32:25.324 --> 01:32:30.844 And I, it gives me great solace to see those indigenous cultures bringing 01:32:30.844 --> 01:32:37.444 back some ownership and say, over the land, because God's sake, sure as 01:32:37.444 --> 01:32:43.834 hell in the US the dollar rules the United States of America incorporated. 01:32:45.244 --> 01:32:49.114 But in those indigenous cultures that remain, there still is 01:32:49.114 --> 01:32:52.264 that baked in understanding. 01:32:52.894 --> 01:32:56.044 You know, we're very smart, we made ai, we do all these kinds of 01:32:56.044 --> 01:32:58.114 things, but we're not really wise. 01:33:00.904 --> 01:33:01.894 Should we do that? 01:33:03.664 --> 01:33:05.584 What aren't we doing that we should? 01:33:08.344 --> 01:33:12.484 And within those cultures is that consult of the land? 01:33:13.144 --> 01:33:17.104 Is this good for the seventh generation of everybody? 01:33:17.614 --> 01:33:20.854 Not just people, but is this good for the land? 01:33:20.854 --> 01:33:21.904 Is this good for the water? 01:33:21.904 --> 01:33:23.074 Is this good for the air? 01:33:24.979 --> 01:33:32.389 And will these kinds of touchpoints with nature and wildness in our own 01:33:32.389 --> 01:33:34.879 wild within be enough to counter that? 01:33:34.909 --> 01:33:36.019 I don't know. 01:33:36.559 --> 01:33:44.569 I'm pretty pessimistic myself, but what I really do believe in is that 01:33:46.519 --> 01:33:54.649 it is through the story that we will leave a legacy of what is good and true 01:33:57.289 --> 01:34:04.249 for those generations that manage to persist after whatever happens, happens. 01:34:06.469 --> 01:34:13.279 I don't feel like I honestly contribute that much, but if I can for someone 01:34:14.059 --> 01:34:21.169 pass on something that gives them joy, that helps them through tough times, 01:34:21.859 --> 01:34:26.779 it makes them bust out laughing when they're at their worst and think to look 01:34:26.779 --> 01:34:32.659 to that squirrel who's got half a tail and think, I still got my tail at least, 01:34:36.049 --> 01:34:37.879 then that will be a contribution. 01:34:38.029 --> 01:34:40.759 My grandfather was a master storyteller. 01:34:41.974 --> 01:34:46.174 And he would never have said that, but I watched it and I knew it from a young age. 01:34:46.204 --> 01:34:49.534 I would, I would ride my bicycle to the museum that he helped start. 01:34:50.134 --> 01:34:55.324 And it covered local history in that part of New York from 10,000 years to 01:34:55.684 --> 01:34:57.220 basically the pre well to world to war. 01:34:57.334 --> 01:34:58.834 What town was that and what's the museum? 01:34:59.824 --> 01:35:02.644 It's called the Fort Brewerton Historical Society. 01:35:02.884 --> 01:35:09.224 And it was built on the grounds of a a, a very early European owned basically 01:35:09.224 --> 01:35:12.524 home and trading place, but it was on the site of a French and Indian 01:35:12.524 --> 01:35:17.409 war embattlement and, and campsite not campsite, but a fortifications. 01:35:17.589 --> 01:35:17.679 Mm-hmm. 01:35:17.919 --> 01:35:24.729 Still one of the most well preserved in, in all of that region, but he, you know, 01:35:24.729 --> 01:35:28.059 it covered everything from the paleo Indian culture 10,000 years ago, all the 01:35:28.059 --> 01:35:31.899 way up through the, you know, woodland periods and the explorer periods, and 01:35:31.899 --> 01:35:38.559 Father Le Moine and Samuel Champlain and Civil War and Revolutionary War. 01:35:38.559 --> 01:35:41.769 All these connections to that place that I grew up hearing these stories 01:35:41.769 --> 01:35:42.969 when we were on the boat fishing. 01:35:43.209 --> 01:35:46.749 You know, I could picture in my mind, sir William Johnson in the beau coming 01:35:46.749 --> 01:35:52.849 across a Iida Lake to lay siege to the French forces in their Huron 01:35:52.909 --> 01:35:55.459 companions to the north and west. 01:35:55.459 --> 01:36:00.529 I, I lived with those stories and see them in my mind as real 01:36:00.529 --> 01:36:03.769 as I see the bobber drop when a. 01:36:04.144 --> 01:36:05.224 A perch bites. 01:36:07.744 --> 01:36:11.434 And I would watch him tell these stories to other people. 01:36:11.434 --> 01:36:17.554 And even in the span of 10 to 20 minutes, he would, the people would change. 01:36:17.584 --> 01:36:23.434 You would see their energetic signature, if you will, elevated, 01:36:24.004 --> 01:36:26.764 altered, arguably improved. 01:36:28.984 --> 01:36:31.984 And the, the time that brought it to me most, that almost still 01:36:31.984 --> 01:36:35.524 brings me to tears, was he'd always wanted to go to Alaska 01:36:38.614 --> 01:36:39.754 and he never made it. 01:36:41.344 --> 01:36:45.214 So for his 75th birthday, our family pooled all their resources 01:36:45.214 --> 01:36:49.744 and bought he, myself and my uncle, his son, a ticket to go to Alaska. 01:36:51.934 --> 01:36:55.354 And it was a cruise, so it was like totally not my way to do it. 01:36:55.654 --> 01:36:56.644 Probably not his either. 01:36:56.644 --> 01:36:57.874 I'm pretty damn sure of it. 01:36:58.414 --> 01:36:59.344 But we went anyway. 01:37:00.094 --> 01:37:03.334 It was a wonderful opportunity to be all together, the three of us. 01:37:04.564 --> 01:37:07.684 And as you often do, you sit at the same table every night with the same people. 01:37:08.284 --> 01:37:12.664 And just my grandfather being my, his himself would tell stories every day. 01:37:13.114 --> 01:37:17.314 And at that table was a co, a couple from Cardiff Wales and there was a 01:37:17.314 --> 01:37:21.034 couple from Mexico City and their adult daughter, MBE was her name. 01:37:22.624 --> 01:37:23.854 And he would just tell stories. 01:37:23.974 --> 01:37:27.034 And the, the couple from Mexico City did not speak any English. 01:37:27.904 --> 01:37:31.504 The daughter would have to fragmentary, translate the stories 01:37:31.504 --> 01:37:33.484 to them from my grandfather. 01:37:35.764 --> 01:37:41.314 And the tour came to a close and NBE pulled me aside right 01:37:41.314 --> 01:37:43.054 before we said our last goodbyes. 01:37:43.054 --> 01:37:48.634 And she said, I wanted you to know your grandfather's stories were 01:37:48.634 --> 01:37:50.944 the highlight of my father's trip. 01:37:55.114 --> 01:37:57.294 And they didn't even share a language. 01:38:00.534 --> 01:38:08.574 And yet this mystique, this power, this, you could almost say shamanistic ability 01:38:08.754 --> 01:38:15.594 to transcend time and space for the betterment of now was in full effect. 01:38:17.454 --> 01:38:18.684 I never forgot that. 01:38:21.174 --> 01:38:29.124 And I think more than anything, the story gives me hope that those, those good and 01:38:29.124 --> 01:38:35.694 true things about our world, principally underpinned by the natural world, will 01:38:35.694 --> 01:38:39.144 persist as we have to tell the story. 01:38:40.579 --> 01:38:40.799 Mm. 01:38:41.304 --> 01:38:43.554 We have to tell it again and again. 01:38:43.584 --> 01:38:45.864 And even to people who don't get it and don't want to hear 01:38:45.864 --> 01:38:47.544 it, we have to tell it again. 01:38:48.234 --> 01:38:51.294 We have to learn to tell it in different ways that are appealing 01:38:51.474 --> 01:38:55.734 and do get a foot in the door because we have to tell the story. 01:38:58.344 --> 01:38:59.574 That's really all we have. 01:39:00.834 --> 01:39:01.764 Money's nothing. 01:39:02.844 --> 01:39:08.424 If you invest your most precious resource, your time in something, I 01:39:08.424 --> 01:39:13.974 feel you are obligated to tell that story, to share with the village 01:39:13.974 --> 01:39:18.774 what you have learned so that they too can stand upon your shoulders 01:39:18.774 --> 01:39:20.394 as much as you've stood on theirs. 01:39:23.844 --> 01:39:24.024 It, 01:39:24.234 --> 01:39:27.474 Rupert Isaacson: it's, I've just been thinking, you know, there you are. 01:39:27.474 --> 01:39:31.124 In, when, when you were growing up in upstate New York, by the way, 01:39:31.124 --> 01:39:33.524 Fort Burton or Burton, did you say? 01:39:34.004 --> 01:39:38.054 Brewerton, BR Eton, we're gonna look that Fort Brewerton. 01:39:38.684 --> 01:39:42.014 I was busily trying to look up Burton or Brewerton while you 01:39:42.014 --> 01:39:46.934 were talking to see what, what Brewerton French and Indian Wars. 01:39:46.934 --> 01:39:47.234 Yes. 01:39:47.234 --> 01:39:52.304 The English and the French battling it out for who would get control of the fur 01:39:52.304 --> 01:39:56.084 trade before America was minerals and 01:39:56.714 --> 01:39:57.134 George Bumann: Yes, 01:39:57.224 --> 01:39:58.604 Rupert Isaacson: even agricultural wealth. 01:39:59.094 --> 01:40:02.394 And using the Indians to do their fight and call them 01:40:02.874 --> 01:40:03.924 George Bumann: Indians all the way through. 01:40:04.014 --> 01:40:04.434 Mm-hmm. 01:40:05.004 --> 01:40:10.914 Rupert Isaacson: Then these stories taking place against a wild, natural 01:40:10.914 --> 01:40:15.324 backdrop, whether it was then in the 18th century or whether it was your 01:40:15.984 --> 01:40:21.054 grandfather founding the historical society and helping to create that museum, 01:40:21.774 --> 01:40:24.234 or against that backdrop of Alaska. 01:40:25.614 --> 01:40:32.064 We've been telling stories since we have been on the planet. 01:40:32.634 --> 01:40:35.904 It occurs to me as you were saying, that the, the same animals, the same 01:40:35.904 --> 01:40:43.884 ravens, the same wolves, the same foxes have been observing us, as you say, 01:40:43.884 --> 01:40:46.224 and listening to us tell our stories. 01:40:47.124 --> 01:40:47.304 George Bumann: Mm-hmm. 01:40:47.904 --> 01:40:49.554 Rupert Isaacson: Do you ever get a sense 01:40:52.194 --> 01:40:52.644 that 01:40:54.714 --> 01:40:59.694 they know we are, they are in our stories and 01:41:02.454 --> 01:41:03.864 are we in theirs? 01:41:06.684 --> 01:41:07.284 Yes. 01:41:08.484 --> 01:41:09.024 George Bumann: To both. 01:41:09.774 --> 01:41:11.034 Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me about that. 01:41:11.514 --> 01:41:13.134 What's been your experience? 01:41:19.944 --> 01:41:23.334 George Bumann: Sometimes the story is told to ourselves, 01:41:25.704 --> 01:41:26.814 and I think I. 01:41:28.149 --> 01:41:33.129 Sort of alluded to that, that change in the e energetics of, of an individual 01:41:33.129 --> 01:41:42.669 in contact with story, it shifts us into a place or a plane or, I don't know. 01:41:42.669 --> 01:41:43.809 I don't have words for it. 01:41:43.869 --> 01:41:48.639 I know it when I feel it, that makes us open. 01:41:50.649 --> 01:41:56.709 So I talk to animals, not thinking they will understand me in the words 01:41:56.709 --> 01:41:58.629 I use, but they will get my meaning. 01:42:00.699 --> 01:42:04.299 And indigenous cultures around the globe say this, you know, you, you talk to 01:42:04.299 --> 01:42:06.189 the animals and they will talk back. 01:42:06.939 --> 01:42:08.949 And I don't make the animal noises when I'm in the field. 01:42:08.949 --> 01:42:10.389 I wanna make very clear about that. 01:42:10.389 --> 01:42:12.009 It's illegal in Yellowstone. 01:42:12.009 --> 01:42:17.379 But even outside of that, my own ethical boundaries, I do not imitate them. 01:42:18.729 --> 01:42:21.729 I used to do it for hunting, and I would again, if I hunted, 01:42:21.939 --> 01:42:22.989 Rupert Isaacson: is that how you learned it? 01:42:22.989 --> 01:42:24.069 Because they're so good? 01:42:25.119 --> 01:42:25.599 George Bumann: Yes. 01:42:25.599 --> 01:42:26.469 That's where I started. 01:42:26.679 --> 01:42:30.339 It was I learned to hunt deer and turkeys and ducks and geese. 01:42:30.339 --> 01:42:35.479 I figured out how to call beavers of all things in order to hunt them, but 01:42:35.479 --> 01:42:40.129 it didn't get me closer to them in the way that we're talking about here. 01:42:41.989 --> 01:42:43.309 So I keep my mouth closed. 01:42:43.309 --> 01:42:45.949 If I imitate the raven in the field, I do it under my breath 01:42:47.149 --> 01:42:51.079 because even if I'm not making the sound, we all learn differently. 01:42:51.229 --> 01:42:53.239 We learn not just with our mind. 01:42:53.239 --> 01:42:53.779 We learn. 01:42:54.379 --> 01:42:57.139 With our soma, the, the summation of our body. 01:42:57.139 --> 01:43:00.169 Our, our, our entirety is a learning tool. 01:43:00.199 --> 01:43:03.709 It's an antenna, a receiver, and a projector. 01:43:03.709 --> 01:43:04.459 A transmitter. 01:43:05.839 --> 01:43:09.889 And so when I'm out there I've heard indigenous folks that I know here say 01:43:09.889 --> 01:43:14.359 that they, the animals respond to them when they speak their native language. 01:43:16.489 --> 01:43:22.819 But I've sort of done some of my own ad hoc experiments with just 01:43:22.819 --> 01:43:25.669 speaking English, my native tongue. 01:43:26.869 --> 01:43:32.059 And I think I encourage others to do that because you don't make eye contact. 01:43:33.169 --> 01:43:35.989 Like with a lot of indigenous cultures, it's important that you don't look 01:43:36.709 --> 01:43:39.799 your fellow interlocutor in the eye. 01:43:40.069 --> 01:43:40.669 That's rude. 01:43:41.779 --> 01:43:42.829 It's a provocation. 01:43:44.179 --> 01:43:50.569 But you speak into the space that you share and they hear you. 01:43:52.129 --> 01:43:55.069 They get your intentions, they get your motives. 01:43:55.309 --> 01:43:58.999 They understand whether they are safe or not. 01:43:58.999 --> 01:44:04.039 Great example is we just, my son and I walked our dog, he's, he just had knee 01:44:04.219 --> 01:44:07.009 surgery, so we aren't going very far, but we went down the driveway, which is 01:44:07.369 --> 01:44:11.749 two tenths of a mile long, but we went to the end and on the way back in those 01:44:11.749 --> 01:44:13.369 few minutes, an entire herd of elk. 01:44:13.789 --> 01:44:16.219 Walked across the driveway and were occupying and feeding 01:44:16.219 --> 01:44:18.349 the place that we had to walk through to get back to the house. 01:44:18.349 --> 01:44:20.149 They were all almost all around the house. 01:44:20.839 --> 01:44:22.249 So what do you do? 01:44:22.279 --> 01:44:26.569 You know, like most people would hoo hoo get the, get outta here like we do with 01:44:26.569 --> 01:44:30.499 the seagulls on the beach, or you know, the pigeons are defiling the sidewalk, 01:44:30.499 --> 01:44:31.669 get outta here, blah, blah, blah. 01:44:31.819 --> 01:44:39.079 Well, you're, you're being tallied, you are being observed, you're being received. 01:44:39.079 --> 01:44:41.869 You are, your behavior is being remembered. 01:44:42.019 --> 01:44:44.809 Pigeons, colom, Bolivia, the rock dove. 01:44:45.439 --> 01:44:49.399 It can remember hundreds if not thousands of people's faces and 01:44:49.399 --> 01:44:51.859 know who's naughty and who's nice. 01:44:53.044 --> 01:44:55.879 And through the behavior of one another, and watching that so 01:44:55.879 --> 01:44:59.839 closely, others get the message having never had an encounter with you. 01:45:00.799 --> 01:45:06.949 So our approach is what a, another mutual friend of John and I or ex Craig and I, 01:45:07.069 --> 01:45:09.569 John Young calls the honoring routine. 01:45:10.889 --> 01:45:15.719 So when you run into an animal or herd, or he's this great example of running 01:45:15.719 --> 01:45:20.099 into a group of geese and they need to get to the other side of where these geese 01:45:20.099 --> 01:45:21.989 are just like we had to cross through. 01:45:21.989 --> 01:45:29.519 Where the elk were is you walk until you see them take notice and 01:45:29.519 --> 01:45:35.039 you don't look, but you stay for a moment and you respect their space. 01:45:36.809 --> 01:45:37.889 You might even back up. 01:45:38.789 --> 01:45:44.879 You might fiddle with some sticks or take your attention off of them, but that 01:45:44.879 --> 01:45:51.659 initial contact lets them know you have a directive, but I'm only gonna ex exercise 01:45:51.659 --> 01:45:54.179 this directive if you give me permission. 01:45:55.499 --> 01:45:58.709 We don't ask as human beings, for the most part. 01:45:58.709 --> 01:46:02.009 We just take, and we don't worry about the collateral damage. 01:46:02.609 --> 01:46:06.479 If you really want the relationship, you have to be willing to give. 01:46:08.069 --> 01:46:12.629 And that might just be simple as giving space, giving a minute of your time. 01:46:13.319 --> 01:46:18.059 But what that does is George and I, young George and Hobbes, our black 01:46:18.059 --> 01:46:21.029 Labrador stopped and we turned around. 01:46:21.089 --> 01:46:25.649 So we were facing away from them and they went back to feeding. 01:46:26.309 --> 01:46:27.839 Could see it out of the corner of my eye. 01:46:29.399 --> 01:46:33.179 And after a moment or two letting them do that relaxed, I turned 01:46:33.179 --> 01:46:34.379 around again and I walked. 01:46:34.709 --> 01:46:38.489 And this time they let me go a little further and I repeated, I 01:46:38.489 --> 01:46:40.259 turned around, I turned my gaze away. 01:46:40.499 --> 01:46:41.249 I talked to them. 01:46:41.939 --> 01:46:43.289 Sorry, it's cold out. 01:46:43.289 --> 01:46:44.639 We needed to get back to the house. 01:46:44.639 --> 01:46:46.289 We don't have as good a fur as you do. 01:46:46.649 --> 01:46:48.449 We're, we're gonna be patient though. 01:46:48.449 --> 01:46:49.349 We'll be right here. 01:46:49.559 --> 01:46:52.919 If you, if you want us to wait a little bit longer, wander 01:46:52.919 --> 01:46:55.049 backwards, noodle with a few things. 01:46:55.349 --> 01:47:00.329 We did this a couple times and just like with John's example of the geese, 01:47:00.329 --> 01:47:02.519 they, they, the, the sea parted. 01:47:03.179 --> 01:47:06.689 The geese parted the elk, parted the one that was in the driveway 01:47:06.689 --> 01:47:08.009 that really didn't wanna move. 01:47:08.039 --> 01:47:13.139 We gave her a little more time, but she too just took enough steps off to 01:47:13.139 --> 01:47:15.389 the, the western side of the driveway. 01:47:16.079 --> 01:47:17.549 There was enough room for us to go through, 01:47:19.589 --> 01:47:21.719 and you don't, I've done this with bison. 01:47:21.719 --> 01:47:24.869 He had a school group and it's this huge herd of bison we couldn't get through. 01:47:25.289 --> 01:47:28.259 I was like, listen, kids, this is how we're gonna do it. 01:47:29.309 --> 01:47:33.869 No pictures, no eye contact with the animals. 01:47:35.579 --> 01:47:42.749 Follow these rules to the T and they let you write through and thank them. 01:47:44.009 --> 01:47:48.449 It's, it's a, it's a conversation that's communicated without, without sound in 01:47:48.449 --> 01:47:57.209 that case, but it is very clearly received and acted upon and that that reciprocity 01:47:57.539 --> 01:48:03.989 of, you know, all told that elk incident, it cost us maybe five minutes, like 01:48:04.049 --> 01:48:06.089 all of us can spare five minutes. 01:48:07.799 --> 01:48:11.849 Because the beauty of what comes outta that now is that group of elk 01:48:11.849 --> 01:48:18.209 remembers us and the next time we don't have to play that much of a game. 01:48:18.269 --> 01:48:19.229 They let us right through. 01:48:19.679 --> 01:48:25.319 We've had deer and fawns, deer, mothers with fawns that would let me walk 01:48:25.319 --> 01:48:27.209 with our two black labs before Hobbes. 01:48:27.689 --> 01:48:32.219 I would, as a gesture of, of my responsibility to the. 01:48:32.804 --> 01:48:33.524 Relationship. 01:48:33.524 --> 01:48:35.444 I put my hand on their shoulders. 01:48:35.714 --> 01:48:37.874 They weren't on leash, but they were healed. 01:48:38.324 --> 01:48:42.074 I put my hand on their shoulders to demonstrate that we're all in 01:48:42.074 --> 01:48:43.784 this and we're all gonna behave. 01:48:45.014 --> 01:48:49.094 And there are times we could walk within 10 feet of her and the fawns. 01:48:49.094 --> 01:48:49.844 Mm-hmm. 01:48:50.889 --> 01:48:55.184 That's, that's, you know, you see people, people think that's magic. 01:48:56.084 --> 01:48:57.044 It's not magic. 01:48:57.554 --> 01:49:01.154 It's honoring the relationship across a species boundary. 01:49:01.304 --> 01:49:05.984 And that's where the real beauty really is, is when you see them respond in kind. 01:49:07.094 --> 01:49:09.374 It just my heart beams. 01:49:09.944 --> 01:49:10.214 Hmm. 01:49:12.944 --> 01:49:16.664 And I can't help but think that they appreciate it too. 01:49:17.444 --> 01:49:18.014 Oh, without a 01:49:18.014 --> 01:49:18.614 Rupert Isaacson: doubt. 01:49:18.734 --> 01:49:21.464 You know, whether animals are domestic or, or wild. 01:49:21.524 --> 01:49:28.404 You know, my, my horses, I have a heard of seven horses and so today I 01:49:29.664 --> 01:49:36.124 was going to work with one horse and my horses have a professional life. 01:49:36.124 --> 01:49:40.984 You know, they, they work with autistic children and they also work with 01:49:41.084 --> 01:49:42.434 teaching people how to do dressage. 01:49:42.434 --> 01:49:47.234 And they're good, you know, professional attitude. 01:49:48.254 --> 01:49:48.494 George Bumann: Yeah. 01:49:48.554 --> 01:49:50.174 Rupert Isaacson: But I try to honor 01:49:54.164 --> 01:49:54.914 their choice. 01:49:54.914 --> 01:49:54.974 I. 01:49:55.814 --> 01:50:02.804 So I went out to catch Boo slus and he just looked at me and went, nah. 01:50:04.844 --> 01:50:12.464 Trotted off to the far end of the pasture, lay down with his back to me and very sort 01:50:12.464 --> 01:50:16.064 of emphatically put himself on the, I was like, all right, not today, no problem. 01:50:16.784 --> 01:50:23.594 But 10 years ago I would have insisted, I would have said, 01:50:28.274 --> 01:50:34.064 but through the process with my oldest son who's autistic and the 01:50:34.064 --> 01:50:39.974 relationship that he formed with a horse called Betsy, I realized I had 01:50:39.974 --> 01:50:45.614 to completely rethink everything that I knew and that agency was everything. 01:50:45.614 --> 01:50:46.814 Mm-hmm. 01:50:46.819 --> 01:50:50.025 Because I was going to now rely, absolutely rely on this 01:50:50.030 --> 01:50:55.484 horse and all subsequent horses to when the stakes are high. 01:50:56.714 --> 01:50:59.384 I have my son in front of me in the saddle, or someone else's 01:50:59.384 --> 01:51:00.554 autistic child in the saddle. 01:51:00.554 --> 01:51:06.464 I had to know that in that moment the horse was really with me. 01:51:06.974 --> 01:51:11.144 So where before I would've, I would, was brought up with the, 01:51:11.444 --> 01:51:12.674 you have to make him do it. 01:51:12.674 --> 01:51:14.144 You have to be the dominant one. 01:51:14.144 --> 01:51:14.804 You have to do it. 01:51:14.954 --> 01:51:15.974 That was the old school. 01:51:16.934 --> 01:51:19.334 I realized that that had to be completely abandoned. 01:51:21.854 --> 01:51:22.034 George Bumann: Yeah. 01:51:22.064 --> 01:51:25.874 Rupert Isaacson: And the moment I started giving Choice and 01:51:25.874 --> 01:51:30.884 agency, the give back was bananas. 01:51:31.364 --> 01:51:35.864 What my horses will do for me now when they know I need it, but if they know I 01:51:35.924 --> 01:51:40.184 don't really need it, they'll be like, well, maybe I'll, maybe I So true. 01:51:40.939 --> 01:51:43.964 You know, you, you, and you're so right with, with, with the, you 01:51:43.964 --> 01:51:49.754 know, because say with the, the elk herd there, well, it's one thing to 01:51:49.754 --> 01:51:53.684 demand they move, which could also be a fear-based reaction, you know? 01:51:54.404 --> 01:51:57.374 And you say, as you say, they're clocking you, and that, oh, he's 01:51:57.374 --> 01:51:58.574 a bit nervous of us, isn't he? 01:51:59.204 --> 01:52:00.734 Which is different to honoring us. 01:52:00.734 --> 01:52:01.484 Think to, okay. 01:52:01.484 --> 01:52:02.414 We, there's a lot of us. 01:52:02.444 --> 01:52:03.374 We're very, very big. 01:52:03.914 --> 01:52:07.184 And yes, if I feel he's too close to my calf, I might take a dip at him. 01:52:08.054 --> 01:52:13.124 If you behave differently the next time they're in your driveway, I would posit 01:52:13.274 --> 01:52:17.834 there might be a chance one might take a dip at you because you are not a friend. 01:52:19.004 --> 01:52:21.194 But what you're saying is, I, I am your friend. 01:52:21.524 --> 01:52:22.304 I mean, no harm. 01:52:23.354 --> 01:52:24.914 Um mm-hmm. 01:52:25.214 --> 01:52:30.304 And this honoring thing in Mongolia, you know, wrote across a chunk of 01:52:30.304 --> 01:52:34.594 Mongolia with my autistic son when he was five, going from shaman to shaman. 01:52:34.684 --> 01:52:35.914 It was an extraordinary thing. 01:52:36.364 --> 01:52:36.934 And, hmm. 01:52:37.894 --> 01:52:41.854 The Mongolian word for the WildHorse, what we call the prosky horse, 01:52:41.854 --> 01:52:44.464 which was never tamed, is kin. 01:52:44.464 --> 01:52:45.904 Which is honored one. 01:52:46.504 --> 01:52:47.404 Revered one. 01:52:48.154 --> 01:52:48.424 George Bumann: Hmm. 01:52:48.934 --> 01:52:52.774 Rupert Isaacson: And this thing of honoring into species, you talked about 01:52:52.774 --> 01:52:55.954 our soma, our body being an antenna. 01:52:56.974 --> 01:53:01.294 And so therefore it, it, it sends out signals, it receives signals. 01:53:01.294 --> 01:53:04.324 It's, we are all part of the same electromagnetic field. 01:53:04.324 --> 01:53:04.624 Right. 01:53:05.224 --> 01:53:09.454 Horses, trees, whatever that is a, that is a reality. 01:53:10.864 --> 01:53:18.034 So you are absolutely sending out through your electromagnetic field an intention 01:53:18.934 --> 01:53:23.224 to animals that are so keenly aware because they bloody well have to be. 01:53:23.254 --> 01:53:25.174 'cause there might be a wolf in the thicket or a bear. 01:53:27.154 --> 01:53:32.374 They better have some things to rely on beyond what we call the five sensors. 01:53:34.804 --> 01:53:35.104 George Bumann: Yeah. 01:53:35.254 --> 01:53:36.034 Without question, 01:53:36.064 --> 01:53:46.324 Rupert Isaacson: is it possible to live meaningfully without those extra senses? 01:53:46.984 --> 01:53:51.664 And is it possible to get those extra senses without interspecies relationship? 01:53:52.144 --> 01:53:56.704 And in your book, is that what you're trying to teach us? 01:54:02.374 --> 01:54:02.644 George Bumann: Hmm. 01:54:05.869 --> 01:54:10.669 I think those extra senses are revealed to us. 01:54:11.719 --> 01:54:12.739 They're in us all along. 01:54:13.549 --> 01:54:22.399 We come like the elk, like the wolf prepackaged for connection. 01:54:23.524 --> 01:54:29.089 We come prepackaged for a particular context, a place. 01:54:29.839 --> 01:54:35.239 If anything in the book, I, I really hope folks come to see. 01:54:35.239 --> 01:54:39.769 They don't live in an address, but they live of a place. 01:54:41.244 --> 01:54:47.419 And our guides are these more than humans who exceed us in so many capacities. 01:54:48.379 --> 01:54:51.319 Yes, they can hear in frequencies far beyond us. 01:54:51.319 --> 01:54:53.239 Yes, some can see an ultraviolet light. 01:54:53.269 --> 01:54:53.779 Yes. 01:54:53.904 --> 01:54:57.169 'cause some can hear in sub sound, some can smell in parts per billion 01:54:57.169 --> 01:54:59.179 of things we don't know exist. 01:55:01.579 --> 01:55:03.649 But we have superpowers too. 01:55:04.699 --> 01:55:10.579 And those superpowers are most keenly resurrected and put to 01:55:10.579 --> 01:55:13.909 use in these natural contexts. 01:55:16.009 --> 01:55:17.509 Does it help with people? 01:55:18.319 --> 01:55:19.249 Absolutely. 01:55:20.239 --> 01:55:25.069 You notice the discomfort in that woman in the presence of that particular man. 01:55:26.989 --> 01:55:32.419 You notice the child who flourishes in the company of his grandmother. 01:55:36.229 --> 01:55:41.419 There are unspoken things that, that sift all through our world. 01:55:41.869 --> 01:55:49.309 And the more than human world that reinforce all of this in ways that, you 01:55:49.309 --> 01:55:51.589 know, spoken language gets in the way. 01:55:51.739 --> 01:55:54.169 A a a raven call is, is stupid. 01:55:55.489 --> 01:56:00.469 And I don't mean to sound trite in saying those things, but the sounds, 01:56:00.469 --> 01:56:04.639 the listening, the using the senses where we, where we just begin. 01:56:04.639 --> 01:56:09.529 The relationships are the, the stepping stone through the first door. 01:56:11.359 --> 01:56:15.709 But there are no limited number of doors. 01:56:17.809 --> 01:56:21.709 And I think your experiences with the shamans, they, that is their world, 01:56:21.979 --> 01:56:24.829 is the world beyond the obvious. 01:56:25.669 --> 01:56:28.279 That's still underpins everything. 01:56:28.279 --> 01:56:32.359 And, and I don't hear like I have compromised hearing from guns. 01:56:32.749 --> 01:56:35.599 You know, people think even just to start, I need to have perfect hearing. 01:56:35.779 --> 01:56:36.919 I need to have perfect vision. 01:56:36.919 --> 01:56:41.539 And, and in the book I even talk about folks with autism and, you know, 01:56:41.539 --> 01:56:43.729 temple Grandin's work with animals. 01:56:43.729 --> 01:56:55.729 They, they re they relate in ways that neural normal people cannot, or 01:56:55.729 --> 01:57:01.849 do not, those who can't smell or see or hear or walk without their hip. 01:57:03.619 --> 01:57:10.339 Screaming at them are limited in those capacities, but we often 01:57:10.339 --> 01:57:14.989 fail to realize that it opens other doors that normal quote unquote 01:57:14.989 --> 01:57:18.379 people don't even recognize exist. 01:57:19.819 --> 01:57:24.889 You know, a friend of ours, he, he should have hip surgery years ago, and they would 01:57:24.889 --> 01:57:28.939 come to Yellowstone every year and they would sit in their vehicle, he and his 01:57:28.939 --> 01:57:34.609 wife, and she'd sometimes get out and walk a little bit, but he just didn't get the 01:57:34.609 --> 01:57:37.459 surgery, didn't get the surgery, didn't think it would work, didn't, wouldn't 01:57:37.459 --> 01:57:41.224 do what he wanted it to, but they would sit and that quote unquote handicap, 01:57:42.084 --> 01:57:46.789 you know, I think of our, our one friend Shane Doyle, who's a crow tribal elder. 01:57:46.849 --> 01:57:49.159 He says, in our culture, there's no handicap. 01:57:51.019 --> 01:57:52.909 Everyone is alternately able, 01:57:55.069 --> 01:57:59.119 you know, and the, the Haudenosaunee story of the, the muskrat saving the 01:57:59.119 --> 01:58:03.409 world, or, or being the one who brings the world into existence by grasping 01:58:03.409 --> 01:58:07.339 that little bit of mud from way deeper than anybody else could dive in the, 01:58:07.999 --> 01:58:12.289 in the limitless sea, to put on the turtle's back to begin everything. 01:58:13.459 --> 01:58:19.819 Those insights and lessons and successes are so often rooted in those 01:58:19.819 --> 01:58:22.699 unexpected places and people, and beings 01:58:24.739 --> 01:58:25.969 and, and those beings. 01:58:26.719 --> 01:58:27.799 Reside within us. 01:58:27.829 --> 01:58:30.439 I can't, I can't hear above 8,000 hertz here. 01:58:30.439 --> 01:58:35.359 I can get to about 14,000 here, but it's not what you can and can't do. 01:58:35.359 --> 01:58:38.449 It's what you do with what you can do. 01:58:39.949 --> 01:58:42.409 It's what you do with the sounds you can hear. 01:58:42.889 --> 01:58:46.519 I could eclipse other birders in finding warblers and even some that made these 01:58:46.519 --> 01:58:50.239 high pitched sounds because I listened better to the sounds I could hear. 01:58:54.769 --> 01:58:56.689 And that was a gift that nature gave me. 01:58:59.359 --> 01:59:02.719 Rupert Isaacson: As we move towards the, the, the close of this, and I hope this is 01:59:02.719 --> 01:59:07.759 just the first of several conversations, I would love to have you back on, to 01:59:07.759 --> 01:59:11.899 go more deeply into this, although I'm also not gonna let you out of here 01:59:11.899 --> 01:59:13.249 without hearing how you call a beaver. 01:59:14.119 --> 01:59:14.839 So many jokes. 01:59:16.459 --> 01:59:17.539 Oh, yes. 01:59:18.529 --> 01:59:20.989 But have you, I dunno if you've ever been to Detroit, but there's 01:59:20.989 --> 01:59:25.629 a, there's a famous exit of the freeway by there called Beaver 69. 01:59:26.559 --> 01:59:31.629 And when I was lucky enough to spend some time with the Cree up in northern 01:59:31.629 --> 01:59:35.709 Quebec when they were fighting off hydro Quebec who was gonna flood their 01:59:35.709 --> 01:59:37.239 land and they were actually successful. 01:59:37.239 --> 01:59:40.779 And I ate a lot of beaver and 01:59:44.079 --> 01:59:44.799 yes you did. 01:59:45.279 --> 01:59:48.009 And I presume that's probably why you were hunting them too. 01:59:48.579 --> 01:59:52.539 Let's just go back to your book because I want people to go out and buy your book. 01:59:53.169 --> 02:00:01.089 Take us into a last story from there that will help bring our listeners who, 02:00:01.179 --> 02:00:05.349 yeah, I, I wrote down this word while you were talking about the healing power 02:00:05.349 --> 02:00:07.569 of nature and so on and perspective. 02:00:07.749 --> 02:00:14.259 And the word that came to my mind is, or a WE and whether it was 02:00:16.329 --> 02:00:21.579 you with the elk, you with the wolf, you with the 02:00:23.859 --> 02:00:30.879 ravens bouncing like popcorn, whether it's me this afternoon saying to my 02:00:30.879 --> 02:00:37.179 horse, you know what, if you don't want to, no problem, and, and look at you, 02:00:37.184 --> 02:00:41.019 you, so that allows me to see him in that moment, not just as this horse I'm 02:00:41.019 --> 02:00:43.599 going to wear, but oh my God, you're the most amazing, beautiful animal. 02:00:43.599 --> 02:00:44.739 Look at you, look at you. 02:00:45.069 --> 02:00:46.779 You are awe, I mean, awe of you. 02:00:48.219 --> 02:00:50.019 You put me in perspective. 02:00:50.079 --> 02:00:52.989 I'm small compared to you and you're beautiful compared to me. 02:00:52.989 --> 02:00:56.259 And I think that's the power of your book. 02:00:57.039 --> 02:01:02.679 That, and we talked about mental health and you know, there, there's, there's data 02:01:02.679 --> 02:01:07.719 now showing that even if you're living in, you know, the most non-natural environment 02:01:07.719 --> 02:01:08.979 in your, all depressed, in your. 02:01:10.134 --> 02:01:14.664 If you watch a wildlife documentary, your body begins to respond very, very 02:01:14.664 --> 02:01:16.644 similarly to if you were in nature. 02:01:17.914 --> 02:01:21.904 The subconscious doesn't much care whether it's simulator and, and maybe 02:01:21.904 --> 02:01:25.594 VR will help us in this way, you know, at least we can get back to nature. 02:01:25.624 --> 02:01:26.044 Who knows? 02:01:26.044 --> 02:01:26.434 Who knows? 02:01:26.434 --> 02:01:26.854 Who knows? 02:01:27.184 --> 02:01:28.564 Maybe that's where AI will help us. 02:01:28.984 --> 02:01:36.184 But I feel that a book like yours gives one that sense of 02:01:36.184 --> 02:01:41.644 awe and that sense of it healing. 02:01:43.924 --> 02:01:45.454 So give us one more story. 02:01:46.799 --> 02:01:46.919 George Bumann: Hmm. 02:01:47.859 --> 02:01:51.814 Well, first thank you for that and thank you for having me on. 02:01:51.874 --> 02:01:59.224 It's been a real treat to be able to share what is, you know, our day to day doesn't 02:01:59.224 --> 02:02:07.264 seem that special sometimes, but each of us hold within our own hands, within 02:02:07.264 --> 02:02:10.444 our ears, within our eyes, our minds. 02:02:10.534 --> 02:02:17.854 These diamonds in the rough and those gems are, as you say, and I agree, 02:02:17.854 --> 02:02:23.854 they, they, they are the embodiment of the awe that you find when you 02:02:23.854 --> 02:02:27.094 just open up to what comes in. 02:02:29.299 --> 02:02:31.819 One day I'd had it with the office. 02:02:33.079 --> 02:02:35.989 You know, we run a fair bit of, I have a online course on animal 02:02:35.989 --> 02:02:41.719 language, and we run an online summit on Yellowstone topics, you know, so 02:02:41.719 --> 02:02:44.119 folks around the world can tune in you. 02:02:44.269 --> 02:02:50.119 Many of these things, because of our age, are very, you know, very office screen 02:02:50.599 --> 02:02:54.289 to do phone oriented and yeah, I'm living 02:02:54.289 --> 02:02:55.639 Rupert Isaacson: in Yellowstone, staring at a screen. 02:02:55.699 --> 02:02:58.009 George Bumann: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. 02:02:58.044 --> 02:03:03.289 We, we are not made to, to operate on this wavelength, and yet this is how we 02:03:03.469 --> 02:03:05.359 connect and tell the story these days. 02:03:06.169 --> 02:03:07.489 And I'd had it, I was done. 02:03:07.489 --> 02:03:10.999 I just, and often my wife will see it before I do, or the dog does. 02:03:10.999 --> 02:03:13.069 Like, you need to go for a walk. 02:03:15.169 --> 02:03:16.129 Well, you did get out. 02:03:16.489 --> 02:03:17.209 Yeah, exactly. 02:03:17.389 --> 02:03:18.379 Go out now. 02:03:18.409 --> 02:03:20.119 I think it'd be wise for you to go now. 02:03:20.509 --> 02:03:23.599 And one day, I, I went out for a walk and I, I write about this one 02:03:23.599 --> 02:03:30.799 in the book because it, it to me leaves the breadcrumbs to what I 02:03:30.799 --> 02:03:33.769 feel is one of the highest order 02:03:36.679 --> 02:03:38.569 experiences of that awe. 02:03:40.459 --> 02:03:43.729 And instead of just going in and sitting or just going and walking, 02:03:43.729 --> 02:03:50.569 I did what was, what you could say was just an extended stand. 02:03:51.124 --> 02:03:52.954 That slightly moved. 02:03:54.034 --> 02:03:56.509 And what I mean by that is, I, I went into the lower yard. 02:03:56.509 --> 02:03:57.629 I do that sometimes after five points. 02:03:57.629 --> 02:03:57.909 Yeah. 02:03:57.909 --> 02:04:01.294 But yes, and that's kind of the way it felt. 02:04:02.194 --> 02:04:05.914 You know, I went into the lower yard and I was gonna walk, I was gonna go do 02:04:05.914 --> 02:04:12.574 something uhhuh, and what I realized is what I needed most was to be something. 02:04:12.574 --> 02:04:13.204 Mm-hmm. 02:04:13.924 --> 02:04:20.314 And I just stood there and I just let the senses go. 02:04:20.374 --> 02:04:23.224 You know, there's a jet flying over, the breeze is coming in this way. 02:04:23.224 --> 02:04:23.584 Oh no. 02:04:23.584 --> 02:04:26.884 It, it actually is swirling back from that direction, the sunshine, it's 02:04:26.884 --> 02:04:29.194 hitting the back of my neck right here. 02:04:29.674 --> 02:04:34.504 The grasses are blowing in front of me, you know, just absorbing these patterns. 02:04:35.764 --> 02:04:38.314 And every once in a while, every few minutes, I would just take 02:04:39.094 --> 02:04:42.844 half a step, a full step, maybe. 02:04:43.804 --> 02:04:50.104 And by the time I don't know how long it was, an hour, hour and a half had passed, 02:04:50.104 --> 02:04:53.104 I'd gone maybe 20 feet, 30 feet tops. 02:04:56.074 --> 02:04:58.474 And whatever happened 02:05:01.924 --> 02:05:09.694 clearly shifted the dynamic of how I existed in that space. 02:05:10.144 --> 02:05:14.254 And I, I don't really know how to articulate it beyond that. 02:05:14.314 --> 02:05:17.614 But as I was standing there, this song, Sparrow. 02:05:17.944 --> 02:05:23.314 It drops in like almost over my shoulder and it lands in the ryegrass in front 02:05:23.314 --> 02:05:25.594 of me, and it's almost at my feet. 02:05:25.594 --> 02:05:27.994 And it's gnashing on this ryegrass seed. 02:05:27.994 --> 02:05:32.674 Like, you know, in the book I described as, it's kinda like that country diner, 02:05:32.674 --> 02:05:35.944 you know, and everybody's in their locals drinking coffee and they got the plastic, 02:05:36.094 --> 02:05:39.424 you know, coffee stir and they're just chewing on it, like a piece of grass or 02:05:39.424 --> 02:05:40.954 something in the corner of the mouth. 02:05:40.954 --> 02:05:46.504 And it's just, it's just living, it's doing its thing completely ignoring me. 02:05:48.154 --> 02:05:49.354 To me, that is one of the most 02:05:51.694 --> 02:05:56.434 beautiful, privileged positions to be in, in nature is to be forgotten. 02:05:57.034 --> 02:05:59.314 Ignored, overlooked. 02:05:59.734 --> 02:06:00.364 Allowed. 02:06:00.994 --> 02:06:01.924 Allowed. 02:06:02.074 --> 02:06:02.944 Exactly. 02:06:04.984 --> 02:06:07.774 And I felt different. 02:06:08.104 --> 02:06:13.084 It was, it was just like, it was not quite like I had too many pints, but it kind 02:06:13.084 --> 02:06:20.404 of smacked of an altered, just, just, it was like all the senses were on high 02:06:20.854 --> 02:06:25.324 functioning independently, but in unison. 02:06:26.224 --> 02:06:28.504 And I was, I just felt so relaxed. 02:06:29.554 --> 02:06:30.544 It was beautiful. 02:06:30.574 --> 02:06:37.204 It was just like having a, a killer massage or you know, a soak in the hot 02:06:37.204 --> 02:06:41.704 tub after long day and my phone went off. 02:06:42.439 --> 02:06:46.339 Of course the alarm clock went off and I was like, geez, god dammit. 02:06:46.339 --> 02:06:50.809 You know, like here, I just like, oh, you know, I've ascended to this, you know, 02:06:50.809 --> 02:06:54.949 altered state of, of consciousness and the phone rings, you know, the alarm says, get 02:06:54.949 --> 02:06:59.839 back to the office, dummy and I, I smacked the phone from outside my pocket and it 02:06:59.839 --> 02:07:03.439 shuts off and I begrudgingly turn around. 02:07:03.439 --> 02:07:09.079 I start slowly walking back up the steps past the greenhouse toward the house. 02:07:10.549 --> 02:07:16.459 And there's three, is it three or four? 02:07:16.459 --> 02:07:18.499 Three or four black build mag pies. 02:07:18.799 --> 02:07:20.509 They're a member of the Crow and Jay family. 02:07:20.509 --> 02:07:24.859 Just like the, the raven is, but they don't like being around people at all. 02:07:26.749 --> 02:07:28.009 You know, if you feed them, yeah. 02:07:28.009 --> 02:07:30.499 It's like the, the gal with the crows that, that you get to 02:07:30.499 --> 02:07:31.969 watch, they'll snuggle up to you. 02:07:31.969 --> 02:07:36.379 But in my mind I do, I we don't feed, the reason I don't feed is 02:07:36.379 --> 02:07:41.719 I don't want our wild neighbors to be engaged in prostitution. 02:07:43.039 --> 02:07:47.389 I don't want our relationship to be predicated on something they absolutely 02:07:47.389 --> 02:07:55.579 can't do without, for us to be together, it has to be built on trust first. 02:07:57.679 --> 02:07:59.029 And without that it's, I. 02:07:59.359 --> 02:08:00.349 To me, not worth it. 02:08:02.329 --> 02:08:03.829 That's a whole nother topic into itself. 02:08:03.829 --> 02:08:04.219 After that you 02:08:04.219 --> 02:08:04.519 Rupert Isaacson: can have the 02:08:04.519 --> 02:08:05.179 George Bumann: prostitution. 02:08:05.179 --> 02:08:06.589 Sorry, I couldn't. 02:08:07.489 --> 02:08:08.269 Yeah, exactly. 02:08:08.624 --> 02:08:10.664 I don't wanna, then we can, I don't, yeah. 02:08:10.944 --> 02:08:13.339 I don't want to pay them in the currency. 02:08:13.339 --> 02:08:15.019 They need to pay, you need to hang out with me. 02:08:15.499 --> 02:08:15.799 You know? 02:08:15.799 --> 02:08:18.319 'cause when you run out, if it's like training a dog or training a horse, if 02:08:18.349 --> 02:08:21.319 you're, if you're just training them a treats, they, they train to get the treat. 02:08:21.379 --> 02:08:22.849 They don't give a care about you. 02:08:23.719 --> 02:08:23.869 Right. 02:08:23.869 --> 02:08:24.889 You run outta snacks. 02:08:24.949 --> 02:08:26.689 You're, you're old news now. 02:08:27.529 --> 02:08:27.619 Mm-hmm. 02:08:27.859 --> 02:08:29.359 So we didn't feed these mag pies. 02:08:29.929 --> 02:08:31.039 Neighbors didn't feed them. 02:08:31.309 --> 02:08:32.119 They're always around. 02:08:32.659 --> 02:08:34.399 Every time we go for a walk, they're there. 02:08:34.399 --> 02:08:34.489 They, 02:08:37.099 --> 02:08:38.419 and they're usually gone. 02:08:38.419 --> 02:08:41.479 If you surprise them, the closest usually you ever get is 02:08:41.479 --> 02:08:43.459 30 yards, 40 yards, 50 yards. 02:08:43.459 --> 02:08:45.949 Usually if it's an open and they're gone, they take off. 02:08:46.369 --> 02:08:48.319 They are not hanging around with humans. 02:08:48.349 --> 02:08:52.099 Not any of you walking around on two legs outta here. 02:08:52.129 --> 02:08:52.999 Sorry buddy. 02:08:53.689 --> 02:08:54.589 Not trusting you. 02:08:56.629 --> 02:09:02.719 And oddly enough, that day as I walked past the garage, these three mag pies 02:09:02.719 --> 02:09:06.679 were right next to the sidewalk that I had to walk on to go into the house. 02:09:08.539 --> 02:09:09.529 They just stayed there. 02:09:11.899 --> 02:09:16.279 So, but I was, I dunno, I, I don't know why. 02:09:16.279 --> 02:09:18.499 I just felt like I could keep going. 02:09:18.499 --> 02:09:26.239 So I took another couple steps and they stayed there and I took a couple more. 02:09:27.454 --> 02:09:34.144 A few more until literally Rupert, I was standing over them. 02:09:35.044 --> 02:09:38.674 This is a position they never would concede to. 02:09:40.294 --> 02:09:41.884 I'm standing over them. 02:09:41.884 --> 02:09:45.334 I can hear these tiny little sounds that they're making, 02:09:45.334 --> 02:09:46.924 you know, this, this little, 02:09:52.469 --> 02:09:57.124 the sounds that you, you can't hear if you're more than five feet away. 02:09:57.574 --> 02:09:59.464 Like we've heard 'em outside the window and other times 02:09:59.464 --> 02:10:00.484 where we could be that close. 02:10:00.814 --> 02:10:02.524 Never when you're out and about, 02:10:04.774 --> 02:10:07.114 I can see what they're picking at in the grass. 02:10:07.144 --> 02:10:08.254 The food that they're selecting. 02:10:08.254 --> 02:10:12.484 They're moving away the, the grass blades and twigs and little pebbles, and, and 02:10:12.484 --> 02:10:16.684 they're all, you know, they were, if I fell over, I would've fallen on them. 02:10:18.664 --> 02:10:23.614 And yet they were pretending, acting, carrying on as if I didn't even exist. 02:10:25.354 --> 02:10:27.304 Very mysterious, very puzzling. 02:10:28.654 --> 02:10:34.684 And then at once, I had this thought of, wow, nobody's gonna believe this. 02:10:35.224 --> 02:10:37.654 And in that instant, I didn't move. 02:10:39.064 --> 02:10:43.024 I didn't make a sound, but every single one of them looked 02:10:43.024 --> 02:10:45.274 right up at me and took off. 02:10:48.349 --> 02:10:51.499 And after that point, I, I was like, what the hell was that? 02:10:51.499 --> 02:10:54.829 You know, I, they landed on the fence post, which, or the fence 02:10:54.829 --> 02:10:58.249 railings across the driveway, which was maybe 20 yards away. 02:10:58.549 --> 02:11:00.559 So I, I just started walking toward them. 02:11:01.729 --> 02:11:02.899 They weren't having it. 02:11:02.929 --> 02:11:06.979 They flew another 50 or 80 yards further, and I walked, you know, 02:11:06.979 --> 02:11:09.499 to the fence and they just, they were outta there completely. 02:11:11.509 --> 02:11:12.679 What was that? 02:11:13.159 --> 02:11:14.059 I i 02:11:16.549 --> 02:11:20.629 was that the state that the, 02:11:22.789 --> 02:11:25.939 the elemental human really exists in? 02:11:29.659 --> 02:11:31.729 Did they not even see me? 02:11:31.729 --> 02:11:36.559 Like I, you try to rationalize things like this, yet at the same time, it only 02:11:36.559 --> 02:11:44.329 takes a mere few seconds of an experience like that to really draw into question 02:11:44.329 --> 02:11:48.559 what you conceive of as, as reality. 02:11:51.004 --> 02:11:54.619 What, what else is possible here? 02:11:55.999 --> 02:11:58.129 What was that relationship? 02:11:58.219 --> 02:12:00.679 What, I don't know. 02:12:01.909 --> 02:12:10.879 I have ideas, I guesses, but I have to ask a shaman, because it was so transcendent, 02:12:11.179 --> 02:12:14.479 it was so imbued with a sense of awe that. 02:12:15.859 --> 02:12:19.549 I can't look at those mag pies even from a distance and see 02:12:19.549 --> 02:12:22.039 them the same way I did before. 02:12:25.399 --> 02:12:33.109 My notion of them has been transformed and a bunch, you know, from smaller, 02:12:33.109 --> 02:12:39.079 less profound experiences before that we every encounter changes the 02:12:39.079 --> 02:12:40.279 relationship a little bit better. 02:12:40.279 --> 02:12:43.189 I love, you know, John Craig and i's friend. 02:12:43.189 --> 02:12:48.379 John Young talks about his time with Thesal Bushman and that every time 02:12:48.559 --> 02:12:53.119 we encounter an animal, a specific individual, a thread grows between us. 02:12:53.299 --> 02:12:54.679 You probably know this story, right? 02:12:55.069 --> 02:12:59.389 And the next time you see them, that thread turns into a thin string and 02:12:59.389 --> 02:13:03.079 the next time it's a rope, and the next time it's a cord, and then a rope. 02:13:03.079 --> 02:13:08.599 And, and until you have these solid ropes of connection to 02:13:08.599 --> 02:13:09.979 everything around you and it, 02:13:12.259 --> 02:13:16.729 you are stopping before you walk out the front door to see who's 02:13:16.729 --> 02:13:20.989 there enough to exit slowly. 02:13:20.989 --> 02:13:21.079 Mm-hmm. 02:13:22.789 --> 02:13:25.819 So that you don't blow out the door and blast everybody out. 02:13:25.819 --> 02:13:30.229 Like every normal human you take on a different approach. 02:13:30.769 --> 02:13:36.589 Slowly open the door, leave it open as you look out, let the animals see you. 02:13:37.579 --> 02:13:39.439 Let them go back to what they were doing. 02:13:40.159 --> 02:13:43.579 Take one step to the threshold and wait. 02:13:45.954 --> 02:13:50.914 They go back to what they're doing, take another, and pretty 02:13:50.914 --> 02:13:52.834 soon you're in their company. 02:13:53.344 --> 02:13:53.464 Mm-hmm. 02:13:54.094 --> 02:13:55.324 And that's very powerful. 02:13:56.794 --> 02:13:57.934 Very, very powerful. 02:13:58.234 --> 02:14:02.284 And all of us can do it anywhere, anytime. 02:14:02.344 --> 02:14:05.524 It just takes a few moments of our retirement attention. 02:14:12.754 --> 02:14:13.924 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I feel your book 02:14:16.144 --> 02:14:17.104 helps us 02:14:19.804 --> 02:14:26.044 to enter that shamanic state a bit, and I think that's one of 02:14:26.044 --> 02:14:28.354 the great gifts of nature writing. 02:14:30.784 --> 02:14:36.304 It draws our attention back to the wild and it draws our subconscious back to the 02:14:36.304 --> 02:14:45.334 wild, and it draws our souls back to where we know we've lost since we became tame. 02:14:46.864 --> 02:14:52.894 And with each telling of a story like that, and each reminder that it's possible 02:14:53.824 --> 02:14:54.004 George Bumann: mm-hmm. 02:14:54.634 --> 02:14:56.944 Rupert Isaacson: To step back over that bridge. 02:14:57.724 --> 02:14:59.404 In fact, all it takes is intention 02:15:01.804 --> 02:15:04.144 and we're right there because we're the same species we ever were. 02:15:06.274 --> 02:15:06.874 George Bumann: Absolutely. 02:15:07.474 --> 02:15:10.444 Rupert Isaacson: But it's good to be reminded, and as you 02:15:10.444 --> 02:15:13.324 say, if we are not reminded. 02:15:14.734 --> 02:15:17.164 Even those of us that know and value this, 02:15:19.264 --> 02:15:26.884 we, we slip so easily into poor mental health basically for 02:15:26.884 --> 02:15:28.294 those generations coming up. 02:15:28.294 --> 02:15:34.204 Now, if they're not reminded, if the cycle of storytelling is 02:15:34.204 --> 02:15:39.334 broken, how will they value that? 02:15:39.334 --> 02:15:42.754 Which we are supposed to not just protect, but upon which we 02:15:43.024 --> 02:15:45.424 rely for our very sustenance. 02:15:46.624 --> 02:15:46.804 George Bumann: Mm-hmm. 02:15:47.074 --> 02:15:50.434 Rupert Isaacson: So when you make, when you write a book like keeps 02:15:50.434 --> 02:15:56.614 dropping on animals, when you create the arc that you create, let alone 02:15:56.614 --> 02:15:58.624 when you take people into the wild, 02:16:02.284 --> 02:16:03.844 you remind us 02:16:07.984 --> 02:16:09.394 to care for ourselves. 02:16:10.984 --> 02:16:17.884 Because to care for the wild is to care for ourselves and to forget it and 02:16:17.884 --> 02:16:23.404 denigrate it and destroy it is to do the same thing to destroy ourselves. 02:16:24.094 --> 02:16:27.364 But we might not even know that because we're so growing up in 02:16:27.364 --> 02:16:34.504 families that are so, cultures that are so long divorced from the wild. 02:16:34.894 --> 02:16:37.264 So every contribution that you make, 02:16:40.474 --> 02:16:41.524 so listeners. 02:16:42.559 --> 02:16:46.399 He's dropping on animals and buy one for a friend, especially if you've got a friend 02:16:46.399 --> 02:16:49.039 that's not having much access right now. 02:16:51.079 --> 02:16:55.429 In return, George will now call a viva. 02:16:59.809 --> 02:17:02.569 George Bumann: I suppose I should fess up. 02:17:03.709 --> 02:17:08.499 So the beaver is also all a very social creature as well. 02:17:09.369 --> 02:17:15.309 So if you learn to sound like another beaver you stand a chance of having a 02:17:15.309 --> 02:17:17.409 very close encounter with the keto are. 02:17:19.059 --> 02:17:23.069 And most commonly and most attractive to them is the sound 02:17:23.069 --> 02:17:25.139 of chewing someone else dining. 02:17:25.799 --> 02:17:26.159 Ah. 02:17:26.729 --> 02:17:30.929 And so if you can imitate the sound of them doing this corn cob, like 02:17:30.959 --> 02:17:33.089 chewing of the bark off of a twig 02:17:39.989 --> 02:17:40.829 and they roll it, 02:17:50.099 --> 02:17:54.179 you can often call them up right up to you. 02:17:54.754 --> 02:17:54.974 Wow. 02:17:55.124 --> 02:17:55.694 Hide though. 02:17:56.404 --> 02:17:56.694 Hide. 02:17:56.819 --> 02:17:59.249 So they can't see that you're not another beaver. 02:17:59.729 --> 02:18:02.629 But you will, you'll be surprised. 02:18:04.009 --> 02:18:04.339 Roll the. 02:18:06.379 --> 02:18:06.649 Yep. 02:18:11.557 --> 02:18:14.167 Rupert Isaacson: Well, listen, George, it's been a real treat. 02:18:15.277 --> 02:18:16.447 I've been transported. 02:18:16.477 --> 02:18:17.167 Thank you. 02:18:19.102 --> 02:18:19.532 Thank you. 02:18:19.537 --> 02:18:20.377 Will you come on again? 02:18:20.587 --> 02:18:24.697 There's a lot of other questions I'd like to ask happily. 02:18:24.907 --> 02:18:25.177 George Bumann: Yeah. 02:18:25.657 --> 02:18:27.937 Rupert Isaacson: What I'm thinking we should do is we should, we should 02:18:27.937 --> 02:18:31.117 actually have a little three-way panel with you, me and Craig. 02:18:31.987 --> 02:18:32.887 Oh, that would be fun. 02:18:32.947 --> 02:18:35.287 Which means I just get to hang out basically with you and Craig. 02:18:35.737 --> 02:18:36.247 Very cool. 02:18:38.017 --> 02:18:40.027 Well, I'd love, you can call beavers together. 02:18:40.567 --> 02:18:41.407 George Bumann: There you go. 02:18:41.467 --> 02:18:45.517 We'll, we'll be a colony unto ourselves and maybe draw some others in. 02:18:45.727 --> 02:18:46.117 Yeah. 02:18:47.347 --> 02:18:50.617 Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, if, if, if you fancy the sound of that, 02:18:51.097 --> 02:18:55.177 we will see if we can do a Craig call. 02:18:56.467 --> 02:18:56.917 Have two, 02:18:57.427 --> 02:18:58.177 George Bumann: what would that be? 02:18:58.177 --> 02:19:01.117 What's the sound of a, a, an octopus suction cup 02:19:03.547 --> 02:19:04.357 popping off? 02:19:04.717 --> 02:19:05.167 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 02:19:06.282 --> 02:19:09.487 Or, or, or, or the sound of sea lice crawling over a forearm. 02:19:10.777 --> 02:19:13.387 That thousand, the stuff that man puts himself through. 02:19:13.987 --> 02:19:14.617 George Bumann: Mm. 02:19:14.707 --> 02:19:17.197 The bark of a Cape Clawless Otter. 02:19:17.527 --> 02:19:17.977 Rupert Isaacson: That's right. 02:19:19.072 --> 02:19:24.232 The feeling of kelp wrapping itself around your lower calf when there's 02:19:24.232 --> 02:19:26.452 a great white closing in on you. 02:19:26.632 --> 02:19:30.502 That's a very wi with, with the water at sort of Sub-Zero temperatures. 02:19:30.502 --> 02:19:32.782 That's a very Craig type of situation. 02:19:32.782 --> 02:19:34.702 And yes, it is. 02:19:38.637 --> 02:19:40.042 George Bumann: Well, I would be up for it. 02:19:40.042 --> 02:19:44.982 It's not often and that we get to have these kind of conversations and, and 02:19:44.982 --> 02:19:50.712 certainly not frequently enough then that are in ways that others can benefit to. 02:19:50.922 --> 02:19:52.182 So count me in. 02:19:52.812 --> 02:19:55.092 Rupert Isaacson: So tell me before we, before we depart this 02:19:55.092 --> 02:19:56.712 time, how do people find you? 02:19:57.642 --> 02:19:58.152 George Bumann: Sure. 02:19:58.872 --> 02:20:00.552 They can find me at for the art. 02:20:00.792 --> 02:20:04.472 You can see my website at george bauman.com. 02:20:04.472 --> 02:20:10.292 Bauman rhymes with human, it's spelled B as in boy, U-M-A-N-N. 02:20:10.832 --> 02:20:15.422 And my wife and I have a lifestyle blog about our, our life here at the edge of 02:20:15.422 --> 02:20:18.482 Yellowstone called a yellowstone life.com. 02:20:20.132 --> 02:20:24.452 And at present, if you are already a, a Yellowstone aficionado or would like 02:20:24.452 --> 02:20:28.222 to be, we're working on the fourth annual Yellowstone Summit, which is 02:20:28.222 --> 02:20:31.972 an online event for anyone around the world to hear from the world's leading 02:20:31.972 --> 02:20:37.342 experts on all the neat things about this place@yellowstonesummit.com. 02:20:37.342 --> 02:20:38.332 When will that be? 02:20:39.712 --> 02:20:43.882 The event goes live on the 20th of February this month. 02:20:44.062 --> 02:20:44.152 Oh. 02:20:44.152 --> 02:20:44.452 Soon. 02:20:44.452 --> 02:20:46.462 And run through the 23rd very soon. 02:20:46.492 --> 02:20:51.392 So we're in the throes of finalizing speaker material programs. 02:20:51.392 --> 02:20:53.762 We have prerecorded and live sessions. 02:20:53.762 --> 02:20:58.672 We have everything from geology, ecology, animal behavior, photography, trip 02:20:58.672 --> 02:21:02.982 planning, geo you know, geothermal things. 02:21:03.222 --> 02:21:08.712 We actually have a, a classical musical, a classical music composer who's in, created 02:21:08.712 --> 02:21:13.992 some works based on his time guiding into the back country of Yellowstone 02:21:14.172 --> 02:21:15.882 this year to to feature this year. 02:21:15.882 --> 02:21:20.802 So a nice variety of topics, the arts literature, and to really 02:21:20.802 --> 02:21:25.722 give people a well rounded feel for, for the awe of, of this place. 02:21:25.992 --> 02:21:28.362 Rupert Isaacson: Sounds like an insane amount of work putting that together. 02:21:28.992 --> 02:21:29.772 It totally 02:21:29.772 --> 02:21:29.982 George Bumann: is. 02:21:30.852 --> 02:21:32.202 Sounds like it's ridiculous. 02:21:32.772 --> 02:21:36.642 My wife is really at the center of it and it's solid four or five months of the 02:21:36.642 --> 02:21:39.012 year to put this together and Oh, sure. 02:21:39.012 --> 02:21:41.562 She's a rock star when it comes to that. 02:21:41.562 --> 02:21:42.042 So 02:21:42.042 --> 02:21:44.022 Rupert Isaacson: that sounds like a wonderful thing to attend. 02:21:44.022 --> 02:21:45.762 An absolute nightmare to put together. 02:21:45.762 --> 02:21:46.092 Yeah, 02:21:46.692 --> 02:21:50.712 George Bumann: but it's so rewarding 'cause you know, from our two and a 02:21:50.712 --> 02:21:54.942 half decades of giving and organizing education programs, who here we know. 02:21:55.887 --> 02:21:59.817 So many of these people doing things that are off the charts amazing 02:21:59.817 --> 02:22:01.167 that you would never know about. 02:22:01.227 --> 02:22:05.877 Sometimes you might in the academic literature or park films or programs 02:22:05.877 --> 02:22:10.017 of that nature, but there's folks who are doing things that are so 02:22:10.077 --> 02:22:13.707 incredible that unless you lived here, you wouldn't know about them. 02:22:13.767 --> 02:22:17.427 So it's, it's actually a real honor for us to be able to put these folks up 02:22:17.427 --> 02:22:20.937 on a pedestal for others to appreciate in the ways that we love them. 02:22:21.657 --> 02:22:23.217 And again, what's the web address for 02:22:23.217 --> 02:22:23.787 Rupert Isaacson: people wanting 02:22:23.787 --> 02:22:23.907 George Bumann: to 02:22:23.907 --> 02:22:24.357 Rupert Isaacson: attend that? 02:22:24.357 --> 02:22:24.687 Summit? 02:22:25.497 --> 02:22:28.377 George Bumann: Yellowstone summit.com. 02:22:28.377 --> 02:22:29.157 And they can too. 02:22:29.187 --> 02:22:30.987 They can buy the pass and watch later. 02:22:31.287 --> 02:22:34.527 It's, you know, you can buy it after the fact, but you, there's a little 02:22:34.527 --> 02:22:38.777 price break if you get in early and yeah, yellowstone summit.com. 02:22:38.867 --> 02:22:40.517 It's a real, a real treat. 02:22:40.517 --> 02:22:44.267 And it's, it's the kind of event I wish I had around when we first 02:22:44.267 --> 02:22:46.337 moved here, frankly, you know? 02:22:46.547 --> 02:22:46.757 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:22:46.757 --> 02:22:49.037 Creating the community, the social hub that 02:22:49.427 --> 02:22:49.937 George Bumann: you had to, yeah. 02:22:50.507 --> 02:22:53.327 It's really part of the point is to build that community of people who 02:22:53.327 --> 02:22:57.197 love this place around the globe tribe. 02:22:57.737 --> 02:22:57.977 Yep. 02:22:58.667 --> 02:22:59.087 Rupert Isaacson: Totally. 02:22:59.537 --> 02:23:01.757 And the book is Eavesdropping on Animals. 02:23:02.177 --> 02:23:03.377 George Bumann: Eavesdropping on Animals. 02:23:03.377 --> 02:23:04.917 You Can Get It in most places. 02:23:04.917 --> 02:23:08.447 Books are sold in Europe and Australia United States, Canada. 02:23:08.787 --> 02:23:09.957 You can go to my website. 02:23:09.957 --> 02:23:14.447 There's a link there that you can also link through to, and get a copy there 02:23:14.867 --> 02:23:16.757 or find out how to get one near you 02:23:17.357 --> 02:23:18.527 Rupert Isaacson: and we will have all the links. 02:23:19.482 --> 02:23:21.197 In the blurb following this. 02:23:21.497 --> 02:23:23.687 So it's all there if you have. 02:23:23.687 --> 02:23:26.987 Well, thanks If you're driving, I appreciate you helping spread the word. 02:23:27.197 --> 02:23:28.037 Oh, of course. 02:23:28.097 --> 02:23:29.237 That's valuable work. 02:23:29.837 --> 02:23:31.487 George, it's been an absolute delight. 02:23:31.607 --> 02:23:34.007 Thank you so much, my honor. 02:23:34.217 --> 02:23:34.607 George Bumann: My pleasure. 02:23:34.607 --> 02:23:34.787 I look 02:23:34.787 --> 02:23:35.777 Rupert Isaacson: forward to the next time. 02:23:37.487 --> 02:23:38.117 George Bumann: I as well. 02:23:38.817 --> 02:23:42.197 Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 02:23:43.027 --> 02:23:46.777 If you did, please help us to make more. 02:23:46.777 --> 02:23:50.657 Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up. 02:23:51.107 --> 02:23:56.357 If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson. 02:23:56.677 --> 02:23:57.027 com. 02:23:57.227 --> 02:24:00.407 And if you'd like 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rupertisatson. 02:24:42.632 --> 02:24:43.492 com, it's all there. 02:24:43.552 --> 02:24:47.102 I can't wait for our next guest and also to meet you there. 02:24:47.902 --> 02:24:51.692 In the meantime, remember, live free. 02:24:52.622 --> 02:24:53.172 Ride free.