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All right, we're ready for departure. Here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the

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best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF.

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Brought to you by Skies magazine and RCAF today. I'm your

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host, Brian Morrison. With me today is my friend and former

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instructor, Mike Hool. Mike, welcome to the show and thanks

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so much for being here.

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Thanks for having me.

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Before we get started, let's go over Mike's bio.

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Mike graduated from flight training in 2003 and was

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posted to four two nine tactical airlift squadron flying the CC

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130 H model Hercules. While training on

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the Herc four two nine squadron was stood down and all personnel then

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joined. Four three six squadron. During the seven years, he was

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posted to Four Three Six Squadron, he deployed seven times in support

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of Op Impact. In 2011, he was posted to

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three Canadian Forces flight training school where he instructed on

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the CT 145 King Air for six years.

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In 2017, he was posted to the Combined Air

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Operations Center, or Koch, in one Canadian Air Division

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NORAD region as a Senior Operations Duty

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Officer. In 2019, he was posted back

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to three Cfffts as the Standards Flight Commander.

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In 2022 he was posted to Air Operations

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Training standards evaluation and training in two Canadian

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Air Division as the Deputy Senior Staff Officer for

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Air Operations Training and Chief check pilot on the

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CT 145. In 2023, he

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was posted to the Future Air Crew Training, or Fact Training

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Detachment Team as the deputy lead for the team.

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Today, we will be focusing on his time on The Hercules and his

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experiences in Afghanistan, as well as how those relate to his

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Remembrance Day experience. Okay, so Mike, we go

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way back. You were my multi engine instructor and I was your first student.

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But I don't know this about you. Where did aviation start for?

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It started for me way back when I was a kid.

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Both my grandfathers retired from the Canadian Armed Forces

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in Trenton, Ontario, at Safe B, Trenton, and my one

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grandfather on my father's side, he remained working

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for the RCAF and the Supply Division

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as a civilian after he retired. And so I

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spent all my summers in and around Trenton Belleville,

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watching the aircraft, constantly flying, and it

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always captured my, uh, attention and my

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interest. And growing up in London, Ontario,

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they.

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Had the London Air Show, which was.

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A huge air show. Ah, throughout

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the still is very much a huge air show

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today. One, if not the top air show in North America. And

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as it was back in the day, so it always captivated, uh, my attention as

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a young kid. And I remember one time me and my

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grandfather. I was about six or seven. We were at our trailer

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about an.

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Hour north of Trenton and, uh, we.

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Were out fishing on our boat and I saw this herc come over

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the ridge, over the lake and he dropped down to about 200ft, and as he

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approached a boat, he started rocking the wings. But then I noticed another

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herc come in behind him and start doing the same thing. This happened

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six times over, so there were six hercs in a row, all

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rocking their wings ass. And I turned to my grandfather, I said, Grandpa,

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what's going on? He goes, oh, it's just the boys saying hi.

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And I'm like, are, uh, they really saying hi to us? He goes, oh yeah, they

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recognize my boat. And he wasn't kidding. Uh, I thought he

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was putting me on. And as a seven year old chaching

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his grandson, but he wasn't the, uh, first aircraft

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commander, recognized my grandfather's boat, obviously knew my

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grandfather from supply, and started rocking the wings and told the rest of the boys to say

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hi to. So that right there. When I was seven

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years old, I.

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Was like, I want to do that.

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Ah, one day, I want to figure.

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Out how to do that ah.

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And that's what pretty much had me from the get go.

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And later on I got to go full circle and I got

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to do that.

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That's so cool. I also grew up going to the London Air

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Show, and it was a very formative experience for

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me as well. It is a great air show.

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Amazing.

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Yeah.

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How did you find your flight training.

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Experience in the forces? Intense.

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The adage open mouth, insert fire hose was not

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a lie. Yeah, you really had to be on your game

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every day. Another adage that you say you're always two flights

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away from failing, and so you were

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constantly studying hard, putting in a lot of

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effort into learning the theory and

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learning the skills in the simulator and then, um, putting it to

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practical use every day when you went up flying.

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And it wasn't the easiest thing to.

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Go through, but I'm very glad I.

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Went through it and it helped chart.

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My way forward in my learning. Throughout my aviation

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career in the armed.

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Forces, did you have anything specific that

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helps you get through that stress and the pressure of that time?

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You have to take time for yourself. I mean, yes, you're

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studying all the.

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Time, but you always have to take.

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At least a day for yourself. So on Saturday, Saturday

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was downtime actually, I'd say Friday at

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four till about Sunday morning.

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It was downtime me time, do whatever.

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I had to do to relax with the guys or by myself. And then

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Sunday afternoon generally is when I started getting back into the books.

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For another five day push. Yeah, I totally agree

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with that.

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So you get through your flight training and you end up selected

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for the H model. Was that what you wanted?

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Like I was saying, uh, with my story with my grandfather, flying

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the Hercs was always what I wanted to do in Trenton.

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Specifically when I first was on the.

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Multi engine flying school, just before I got my wings, they ask you

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what you want to fly?

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And I basically said hercs anything in Trenton?

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Because at the time, there were three squadrons flying hercs in

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Trenton. So whether it's the Search and Rescue Squadron, which was my first

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choice, and then the two tactical, uh, airlift

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squadrons, I was like, Anything Trenton hercs, I'm

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good. And I end up getting four to.

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Nine tactical airlift in Trenton. So you must have been

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thrilled. Oh, I was. I was ecstatic, yeah.

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And I didn't realize it at the.

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Time, but Four Two Nine was what.

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Led me to realize why those Hercs were flying over

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my trailer, because that's the tactical training area for the Hercs.

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For the tactical Hercs, they have a massive area that goes from

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Trenton all the way north up to Petawa into Quebec

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Hills. And my trailer was within that area.

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So I realized there was actually a significant point just to the

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west of our trailer, which was constantly used

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for training and places to go due to a simulated drop, and that's

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why they were going by there. So once I got

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qualified, especially when I became an aircraft commander, I made

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sure to route our routes to go over my trailer a couple of

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times to say hi to everyone, uh, who was camping.

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That's really cool.

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So you arrived in Trenton and you thought you'd be flying with Four Two

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Nine Squadron, but that quickly became, uh.

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A posting to Four Three Six Squadron, right? Yeah,

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it sure did.

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So the RCAF decided they were going to stand

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down Four Two Nine, because, like I said, 429436 were the two tactical

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airlift squadrons. Generally, when you're posted to one, you did

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four years there, and then you got posted the other one to do your

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second tour. And guys would just swap in the hallways. Basically,

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we were just down the hall in ten hangar. So it wasn't that,

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uh, uh, far of a stretch. You were just in a different group of people.

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And your second tour is more developed as an aircraft commander,

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and then to be coming to teach the young first officers from

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there.

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So when I was on my Otu.

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I got the news that 49 was standing down and I was post a

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Four Three Six, and I thought this would be a brilliant idea

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to play.

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A little bit of a joke on my wife.

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So I came home from school that day because I was on the

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Otu, still in ground school, and I said.

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Uh, Kim, I just got

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posted. And she's like, what do you mean? We just

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got here. I know, but I'm

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posted I'm posted.

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To Four Three Six Corner, and she didn't know four Three Six was just down the

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hallway.

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She's like, well, then, where are we moving to now? I

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said, oh, we're not moving.

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I'm, um, changing offices down the hall in Ten Hanger.

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And then I got the look, and any married man who's

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overstepped himself knows the look. And she got up

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and she grabbed my hand, and we went towards the front door. And I said, well, where are

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we going? She goes, oh, we're going shopping. You're paying.

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You don't ever give me news like that without, uh, flowers and chocolate in

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your hand. And that's not a joke you ever play again. I was

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like, okay, yes, ma'am. Yeah. It was a yes,

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ma'am moment. And, uh, what sounded like

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a funny prank in my head was not a funny prank in

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reality. And then, uh, I literally paid for

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it.

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So when you arrived at Four Three Six, the squadron was steadily

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increasing its presence in Afghanistan. After you

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achieved an upgrade and did your basic tactical air training course, it

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was time to deploy.

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What were you feeling at that time? Scared.

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Yeah. The reality of what we did

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became real.

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Up until that point, the squadron hadn't been deploying over the world. They were

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moving equipment all over the world and doing stuff.

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But we never really did what we.

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Did in training for real since

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Somalia. And so now it was becoming real. And when the first

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guys went out the door for six month tours at that time,

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I went for two month tours. When the first couple, uh, of six month

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tours went out the line, we.

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Thought, okay, it'll be over in a

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year. Yeah.

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They'll be back, and we'll be done with this.

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That's what we always think.

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So what we always think.

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But it's not what happened in reality. Obviously. We went off for another ten

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years, and so my turn came to go to

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Afghanistan, my first tour, and then I left on my son's first

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birthday. So it was a little rough.

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Yeah.

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That must have been really hard.

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Yeah.

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I got to see him take his first two steps five days before

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I left. And then when I came home, he ran up to

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me in the terminal. So I had missed a

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lot.

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Yeah.

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And that happened repeatedly. I missed significant

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events in his first five years.

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Yeah.

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Anything that big thing to happen, I was never home, which really

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sucked. But, uh, having a very strong spouse,

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keeping the home front, uh, going was the key to that success

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there.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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That's so crucial. When you're gone that much, you have to

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have somebody who's independent.

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Oh, totally. I paid for the house, but it wasn't my

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house. Yeah. And when I would come

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home, I had to integrate into her routine.

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It wasn't my routine.

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It was her routine. So how do I fit back into this routine?

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Because I'm home now for the next

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month, being on leave, but then I'm going to be

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flying with the squadron.

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Again, doing regular missions all around the world, and then I'm gearing

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up to go back overseas again. So, uh, I was gone

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six to eight months of the year for seven straight years.

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So, again, it's her routine.

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It's good that you realize that, though, because that's a big part of

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the friction some people get when they come home, is not

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realizing that you have to now integrate into someone

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else's routine because they've learned to get along without you.

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Yeah, well, before we came home on our and they do this for every.

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Uh, tour that wears on, but they would have

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a meeting with all the.

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Crews before they go home. And not just the air crews, I mean, even the army guys who

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00:09:52.618 --> 00:09:55.468
are gone for six to nine months at a time and give us

242
00:09:55.514 --> 00:09:56.008
these briefs.

243
00:09:56.024 --> 00:09:57.516
To say, hey, this is what you.

244
00:09:57.538 --> 00:09:58.604
Need to expect when you come home.

245
00:09:58.642 --> 00:10:00.844
That she's had her own

246
00:10:01.042 --> 00:10:02.796
routine for so long.

247
00:10:02.978 --> 00:10:04.524
And it's not just you come home.

248
00:10:04.562 --> 00:10:06.700
And everything's back to normal.

249
00:10:07.280 --> 00:10:08.636
It's a bit of a disruption for.

250
00:10:08.658 --> 00:10:11.376
Her to actually have you back in the house. So to get to

251
00:10:11.398 --> 00:10:14.368
climatize and to realize that reality was a bit

252
00:10:14.374 --> 00:10:14.496
of.

253
00:10:14.518 --> 00:10:15.936
A shock, but I saw it right.

254
00:10:15.958 --> 00:10:17.936
Off the bat and what do you.

255
00:10:17.958 --> 00:10:18.930
Need me to do?

256
00:10:20.180 --> 00:10:23.056
Canadians developed a reputation for doing whatever was asked

257
00:10:23.078 --> 00:10:26.036
of us, even when other countries said it couldn't be done. Can you give us

258
00:10:26.058 --> 00:10:26.996
an example of that?

259
00:10:27.098 --> 00:10:29.956
Yeah, one example was, again on my first tour, we were

260
00:10:29.978 --> 00:10:32.916
asked to move a high Mars system, the high mobility air

261
00:10:32.938 --> 00:10:35.888
rocket system for the Americans, because the Americans

262
00:10:35.904 --> 00:10:36.920
wouldn't move it themselves.

263
00:10:37.070 --> 00:10:38.568
When the Americans were flying over in.

264
00:10:38.574 --> 00:10:41.444
Afghanistan with their Hercules transport aircraft,

265
00:10:41.492 --> 00:10:44.456
they were putting weight restrictions on their airplanes, and we weren't. We were just

266
00:10:44.478 --> 00:10:46.856
like, it's a herc, it's what it's designed to do, let's move it.

267
00:10:46.958 --> 00:10:49.416
So, uh, when the American

268
00:10:49.518 --> 00:10:50.364
Chaoc asked.

269
00:10:50.402 --> 00:10:51.708
Us to do it, and for the.

270
00:10:51.714 --> 00:10:53.692
Listeners, a Chaoc is a combined air.

271
00:10:53.746 --> 00:10:56.236
Operations center, we said, yeah, sure, we'll do it.

272
00:10:56.258 --> 00:10:59.036
So we flew to Baghram Air Force Base from

273
00:10:59.058 --> 00:11:01.264
Kandahar, and then it was.

274
00:11:01.302 --> 00:11:04.256
Two trucks with three double pallets of.

275
00:11:04.278 --> 00:11:07.264
Missiles of rockets that we had to bring to

276
00:11:07.382 --> 00:11:10.256
Kandahar for them to fire off the next day. And then

277
00:11:10.278 --> 00:11:13.248
we brought them all back, and it was task and a

278
00:11:13.254 --> 00:11:15.684
half bringing that system down to Kandahar. The first

279
00:11:15.722 --> 00:11:18.676
truck was the loader that

280
00:11:18.698 --> 00:11:21.556
would pick up, it had a crane on it, would pick up the missiles off

281
00:11:21.738 --> 00:11:24.516
the rack and put it into the rocket launcher. And

282
00:11:24.618 --> 00:11:27.508
it had self deflating tires, so the guy had to

283
00:11:27.514 --> 00:11:30.264
lower the pressure down to ten PSI and really

284
00:11:30.302 --> 00:11:31.896
brought the height of the truck down just.

285
00:11:31.918 --> 00:11:33.524
Enough so it could get back, roll.

286
00:11:33.572 --> 00:11:35.060
Back into the back of the herc.

287
00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:37.288
And it took us an hour, a.

288
00:11:37.294 --> 00:11:40.096
Little over an hour to get it into the back of the herc.

289
00:11:40.228 --> 00:11:43.132
By the time it rolled in, the truck had

290
00:11:43.186 --> 00:11:45.564
six inches of clearance on either side and four inches on

291
00:11:45.602 --> 00:11:48.252
top. It was a snug fit.

292
00:11:48.386 --> 00:11:51.276
And it was a young corporal that was driving the truck. And when he got

293
00:11:51.298 --> 00:11:54.184
in there and we said, stop, he tried opening the door and he realized

294
00:11:54.232 --> 00:11:57.084
he wasn't getting out. And he's like, I've got a meeting I got to go

295
00:11:57.122 --> 00:12:00.028
to. And I said, who's your sergeant? Who's your supervisor? And he

296
00:12:00.034 --> 00:12:03.028
goes, the guy over there. So I went to him and said, um, sergeant, I had

297
00:12:03.034 --> 00:12:05.808
to let you know your corporal's coming with us for a ride to Candel

298
00:12:05.824 --> 00:12:06.048
Harbor.

299
00:12:06.064 --> 00:12:07.188
We'll bring him back, but we're going.

300
00:12:07.194 --> 00:12:10.084
To be about 3 hours because he's stuck in that truck and

301
00:12:10.202 --> 00:12:12.980
he's going for a ride. And he's like, oh, okay.

302
00:12:13.050 --> 00:12:16.004
And the young corporal is like, I'm doing what? And back then, we were

303
00:12:16.042 --> 00:12:18.784
low when we departed out of Bagger, and we were doing low tactical

304
00:12:18.832 --> 00:12:21.540
flying, banking and cranking before we would pick up enough speed and

305
00:12:21.610 --> 00:12:24.484
climb as fast as we could to get up to height. So he was getting

306
00:12:24.522 --> 00:12:27.436
a backseat ride and facing backwards in this

307
00:12:27.458 --> 00:12:30.428
big truck in the back of the Herc, not being able to see outside the

308
00:12:30.434 --> 00:12:33.432
windows and just going for a roller coaster ride.

309
00:12:33.496 --> 00:12:36.476
Oh, my gosh, I'm surprised he didn't get sick. But I know

310
00:12:36.498 --> 00:12:39.336
when we got to Canahar and he drove the truck off, he's

311
00:12:39.368 --> 00:12:41.790
like, I need a break. I'm like, I don't blame you.

312
00:12:42.160 --> 00:12:44.944
I would not want to I wouldn't want to be in the back

313
00:12:44.982 --> 00:12:47.824
with experiencing that, let alone him being stuck there because

314
00:12:47.862 --> 00:12:50.716
he wasn't used to flying in Hertz and especially the way we flew

315
00:12:50.748 --> 00:12:53.696
them at the time. So, yeah, we brought, uh, the first

316
00:12:53.718 --> 00:12:56.036
truck there. We went back the second truck, and.

317
00:12:56.058 --> 00:12:57.572
Then we went back two more times.

318
00:12:57.626 --> 00:13:00.596
To get all the missiles. So that was a whole day

319
00:13:00.618 --> 00:13:03.408
of flying. And we got the last load to Kandahar.

320
00:13:03.504 --> 00:13:06.384
They turned to us and said, do you want to watch us fire these things

321
00:13:06.442 --> 00:13:06.952
off?

322
00:13:07.086 --> 00:13:09.928
And we're like, yes, we do. So the

323
00:13:09.934 --> 00:13:10.696
next day, we went out.

324
00:13:10.718 --> 00:13:12.824
To the Kandahar range, and they set it all up.

325
00:13:12.862 --> 00:13:15.690
And again, then the realization of

326
00:13:16.140 --> 00:13:16.548
you're.

327
00:13:16.564 --> 00:13:18.476
In a war zone became real because.

328
00:13:18.578 --> 00:13:21.516
When these things get fired off, someone's going to

329
00:13:21.538 --> 00:13:21.976
die.

330
00:13:22.088 --> 00:13:25.048
These things are meant to make big explosions.

331
00:13:25.144 --> 00:13:27.724
And we fired off every single rocket they

332
00:13:27.762 --> 00:13:30.510
had in the span of 40 minutes.

333
00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:33.868
And once they're all done, they packed it all up and said, we'll see you in the ramp

334
00:13:33.884 --> 00:13:34.448
tomorrow so you.

335
00:13:34.454 --> 00:13:36.268
Can take the two trucks back to Bagroom.

336
00:13:36.364 --> 00:13:39.196
Was that on a range or was that at enemy

337
00:13:39.228 --> 00:13:39.916
targets?

338
00:13:40.028 --> 00:13:42.444
They were shooting at enemy targets from the Candehar range.

339
00:13:42.492 --> 00:13:43.312
Wow. Yeah.

340
00:13:43.366 --> 00:13:44.048
That's crazy.

341
00:13:44.134 --> 00:13:44.384
Yeah.

342
00:13:44.422 --> 00:13:47.230
And it was a successive barrage until, uh,

343
00:13:47.466 --> 00:13:50.420
the whole rack was done. Then they would pick up the next rack and load it in and,

344
00:13:50.470 --> 00:13:51.828
uh, fire them all off again.

345
00:13:51.914 --> 00:13:52.790
That's crazy.

346
00:13:53.560 --> 00:13:56.164
So your bread and butter in Afghanistan was dropping

347
00:13:56.212 --> 00:13:58.984
container delivery systems or CDs bundles to

348
00:13:59.022 --> 00:14:01.896
forward operating bases or Fobs. Why were

349
00:14:01.918 --> 00:14:03.684
those drops so important to troops and Fobs?

350
00:14:03.732 --> 00:14:06.472
And why not just truck them in? At the time?

351
00:14:06.526 --> 00:14:09.516
I don't know if Afghanistan still holds the term, but at the time, it was

352
00:14:09.538 --> 00:14:12.492
the most heavily mined country in the world.

353
00:14:12.626 --> 00:14:15.416
You couldn't go walking onto dirt

354
00:14:15.448 --> 00:14:18.348
roads or dirt fields with not running the.

355
00:14:18.354 --> 00:14:21.052
Risk of stepping on a landmine. Even when we flew into

356
00:14:21.106 --> 00:14:24.076
Baghram Air Force Base, there were areas in between the concrete

357
00:14:24.108 --> 00:14:25.744
that you would see would.

358
00:14:25.782 --> 00:14:28.176
Have flags on them standing up, and.

359
00:14:28.198 --> 00:14:31.136
Those flags were identified landmines that hadn't been dealt with yet as they

360
00:14:31.158 --> 00:14:34.064
built the air base. So you were always told, stand the hard

361
00:14:34.102 --> 00:14:36.868
pack, stand on the concrete and the pavement. Don't walk off it

362
00:14:36.874 --> 00:14:38.724
unless you know it's a cleared area.

363
00:14:38.922 --> 00:14:41.428
So for all these Fobs, and there.

364
00:14:41.434 --> 00:14:44.052
Are many Fobs, Canadian Fobs, American Fobs.

365
00:14:44.116 --> 00:14:46.984
All over the place, for them to have all

366
00:14:47.022 --> 00:14:49.784
the equipment that they need, whether

367
00:14:49.822 --> 00:14:52.612
it's food, ammunition, blankets,

368
00:14:52.676 --> 00:14:55.050
whatever, to have it trucked out there,

369
00:14:55.450 --> 00:14:57.252
uh, was extremely dangerous.

370
00:14:57.396 --> 00:15:00.216
The Taliban loved to put landmines and anti tank

371
00:15:00.248 --> 00:15:03.128
mines underneath the roads and blow

372
00:15:03.224 --> 00:15:04.188
vehicles, uh, up as they were.

373
00:15:04.194 --> 00:15:06.984
Going by, namely the NATO

374
00:15:07.032 --> 00:15:07.516
vehicles as.

375
00:15:07.538 --> 00:15:10.192
They were going by, because they were obviously the enemy to them, right?

376
00:15:10.326 --> 00:15:13.200
So it was very dangerous for them to truck anything

377
00:15:13.270 --> 00:15:15.996
to a Fob. So that's where CDs

378
00:15:16.028 --> 00:15:18.016
drops were, for.

379
00:15:18.038 --> 00:15:20.050
The most part, the key choice of.

380
00:15:20.500 --> 00:15:23.396
Delivery to getting troops on the ground what they

381
00:15:23.418 --> 00:15:26.288
needed when they needed it. The Americans were doing CDs

382
00:15:26.304 --> 00:15:29.008
drops, namely at night, on night vision goggles.

383
00:15:29.184 --> 00:15:31.924
Our, uh, hercs at the time didn't have were not

384
00:15:31.962 --> 00:15:34.656
MVG compatible. The cop it wasn't MVG

385
00:15:34.688 --> 00:15:37.624
compatible. So we did our drops during the day, which

386
00:15:37.662 --> 00:15:40.344
was the most dangerous time to

387
00:15:40.382 --> 00:15:43.016
do CDs drops because they can see you

388
00:15:43.038 --> 00:15:45.896
coming. But that's what we trained for, so.

389
00:15:45.918 --> 00:15:46.970
That'S what we did.

390
00:15:47.580 --> 00:15:50.580
What was your craziest story involving a CDs drop at a

391
00:15:50.590 --> 00:15:51.260
Fob?

392
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:53.970
Got a couple of them, but definitely.

393
00:15:53.970 --> 00:15:56.428
Uh, the one, uh, Fob Cobra rings a

394
00:15:56.434 --> 00:15:57.100
bell.

395
00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:59.400
So we did two to Fob cobra.

396
00:15:59.560 --> 00:16:02.556
The one was probably the craziest. We had been flying

397
00:16:02.588 --> 00:16:04.770
around the country doing

398
00:16:05.300 --> 00:16:08.256
three different legs that day, and we thought our day was done when we

399
00:16:08.278 --> 00:16:11.136
landed. And as we were pulling into our parking spot, I noticed I

400
00:16:11.158 --> 00:16:13.250
looked over and I saw the K loader with.

401
00:16:13.250 --> 00:16:15.764
Uh, eight bundle pack of

402
00:16:15.802 --> 00:16:18.436
CDs on board. And I was like,

403
00:16:18.538 --> 00:16:21.364
I think we are not done the day.

404
00:16:21.562 --> 00:16:24.276
And, uh, the AC is like, what do you mean? I said, look over there. There's a K

405
00:16:24.298 --> 00:16:27.064
loader full of stuff. And I think we're about to get told we're going

406
00:16:27.102 --> 00:16:29.912
flying again. And literally as the engine

407
00:16:29.966 --> 00:16:32.776
shut down and the crew door opened up, our

408
00:16:32.798 --> 00:16:35.768
ops officer came flying up into the cockpit and he's like, how

409
00:16:35.774 --> 00:16:38.552
much gas do you have on board? We said, for what?

410
00:16:38.686 --> 00:16:41.496
And he said to go to Fob Cobra, which we had just done a drop

411
00:16:41.528 --> 00:16:44.344
there the day prior to go do an emergency

412
00:16:44.472 --> 00:16:47.276
CDs drop. They were running low on ammunition. They

413
00:16:47.298 --> 00:16:50.184
need supplies now. And so the navigator

414
00:16:50.232 --> 00:16:53.104
looked at what we had left and said, well we

415
00:16:53.142 --> 00:16:56.064
have enough. But it's uh, basically 15 to 20

416
00:16:56.102 --> 00:16:58.816
minutes of extra gas. And that's it. Because we've been flying around all day

417
00:16:58.838 --> 00:16:59.264
long.

418
00:16:59.382 --> 00:17:01.344
And at the time if you asked.

419
00:17:01.382 --> 00:17:04.192
For gas in Kandahar Airfield, it took

420
00:17:04.246 --> 00:17:05.664
two to 3 hours to get fuel.

421
00:17:05.712 --> 00:17:05.740
Wow.

422
00:17:05.740 --> 00:17:08.532
Uh, so we didn't have that kind of time. So he's like, okay, sounds

423
00:17:08.586 --> 00:17:11.364
good. And just as he said, sounds good, you could

424
00:17:11.402 --> 00:17:14.208
feel the bundles being loaded onto the plane.

425
00:17:14.384 --> 00:17:17.360
It was all going to the back. We're like, okay, here we go. So we just pulled out all

426
00:17:17.370 --> 00:17:20.216
our maps from the day before that we had already had in our

427
00:17:20.238 --> 00:17:23.144
bags and pulled it out. Quickly started looking at it and said, we're doing

428
00:17:23.182 --> 00:17:25.656
it again. So the

429
00:17:25.678 --> 00:17:28.488
riggers normally take 4 hours to rig a, uh, load in the

430
00:17:28.494 --> 00:17:31.388
back. It was done in 20 minutes. I think every rigger on the

431
00:17:31.394 --> 00:17:33.820
base was in the back of our airplane rigging the whole load.

432
00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.052
And after about 30, 40 minutes

433
00:17:37.106 --> 00:17:37.228
they.

434
00:17:37.234 --> 00:17:39.372
Said, fired up, go. So we did.

435
00:17:39.426 --> 00:17:42.284
So we fired up. We went directly to our

436
00:17:42.322 --> 00:17:45.216
initial point where we're at altitude and we're going to start dropping down to

437
00:17:45.238 --> 00:17:48.016
200ft. And uh, I called up the

438
00:17:48.038 --> 00:17:50.672
ground controller on the same frequency I used the day

439
00:17:50.726 --> 00:17:53.536
prior. And the response I got

440
00:17:53.558 --> 00:17:56.436
back wasn't from the ground controller. It was from an A ten close air

441
00:17:56.458 --> 00:17:59.444
support pilot who was orbiting the drop zone. He said,

442
00:17:59.562 --> 00:18:02.452
is F 80, you got to hold. There's a

443
00:18:02.506 --> 00:18:04.256
Chinook helicopter on the ground.

444
00:18:04.368 --> 00:18:05.856
Wounded troops being loaded.

445
00:18:05.968 --> 00:18:08.884
And we're like, okay, so we start holding and we're waiting

446
00:18:08.932 --> 00:18:11.896
and Ange, how much time do we have?

447
00:18:11.918 --> 00:18:14.856
And he said, you got 15 minutes before we're turning this plane around.

448
00:18:14.878 --> 00:18:17.470
We're going back. Okay? And then,

449
00:18:17.470 --> 00:18:19.756
uh, now it's getting really

450
00:18:19.938 --> 00:18:20.584
antsy.

451
00:18:20.632 --> 00:18:23.228
The time's ticking away and

452
00:18:23.394 --> 00:18:23.964
we're looking.

453
00:18:24.002 --> 00:18:25.644
At it and we're like, this is.

454
00:18:25.682 --> 00:18:28.476
Not how things are supposed to go. This is one thing I said, this is not how things

455
00:18:28.498 --> 00:18:31.344
are supposed to go. What I'd forgotten was we

456
00:18:31.382 --> 00:18:34.208
had reporters on board who had gone for us for the

457
00:18:34.214 --> 00:18:36.704
day. And that was the line that made.

458
00:18:36.742 --> 00:18:38.304
The newspapers back home.

459
00:18:38.502 --> 00:18:41.456
AirDrop on a Wingsner prayer. This is not uh, how things are

460
00:18:41.478 --> 00:18:44.448
supposed to go. I wasn't focused on who was in the

461
00:18:44.454 --> 00:18:47.296
back. I was focused on the job. So we're getting antsy.

462
00:18:47.328 --> 00:18:50.052
The angel looks up again. And he goes, seven

463
00:18:50.106 --> 00:18:53.056
minutes. And I'm just about to get on the radio with the ATM pilot

464
00:18:53.088 --> 00:18:53.380
again.

465
00:18:53.450 --> 00:18:55.364
And he said, ISFA day clear?

466
00:18:55.402 --> 00:18:56.296
Day to hot, go.

467
00:18:56.398 --> 00:18:59.348
And immediately, aircraft commander, he just dropped.

468
00:18:59.364 --> 00:19:02.312
The nose over, pull back the power, and we just went right down,

469
00:19:02.446 --> 00:19:02.744
down.

470
00:19:02.782 --> 00:19:05.176
200Ft, cranking through the

471
00:19:05.198 --> 00:19:08.036
valleys, popped up, door

472
00:19:08.068 --> 00:19:10.692
opens up, run altitude on airspeed.

473
00:19:10.836 --> 00:19:13.788
Green on the logo is out the back. I actually got a video of

474
00:19:13.794 --> 00:19:15.230
the logo and out the back.

475
00:19:15.600 --> 00:19:17.340
And then, uh, low clear.

476
00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:20.468
Immediately, he starts turning to the right because there's a mountain in front of us.

477
00:19:20.494 --> 00:19:23.344
We're running out of mountain. So he's running at a distance. And

478
00:19:23.382 --> 00:19:26.316
so he starts turning and climbing. And we got up, uh, above the ridge

479
00:19:26.348 --> 00:19:29.248
because we were in a valley. And at this point,

480
00:19:29.334 --> 00:19:32.272
the navigator is like, you guys got to go direct the button

481
00:19:32.326 --> 00:19:32.844
of the runway.

482
00:19:32.892 --> 00:19:35.336
We are going on fumes.

483
00:19:35.468 --> 00:19:38.468
So that's exactly what we did. Point the airplane right towards the button of the

484
00:19:38.474 --> 00:19:41.060
runway in Kandahar. And I got a hold of the area

485
00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:44.016
controller and know we're inbound immediate

486
00:19:44.048 --> 00:19:47.048
landing for the stop. And he says negative. I need you to go

487
00:19:47.054 --> 00:19:49.924
over to this point and hold for an hour. There's a repatriation ceremony

488
00:19:49.972 --> 00:19:50.712
going on.

489
00:19:50.846 --> 00:19:53.080
And I said negative.

490
00:19:53.500 --> 00:19:56.340
We're declaring emergency for low fuel.

491
00:19:56.500 --> 00:19:58.868
I'm not asking your permission to land. I'm telling you we're

492
00:19:58.884 --> 00:19:59.524
landing.

493
00:19:59.652 --> 00:20:00.868
We'll keep it quiet.

494
00:20:00.964 --> 00:20:03.848
We will shut down the engine inboards as soon as we touch down. We won't

495
00:20:03.864 --> 00:20:06.776
use reverse, but we don't have a choice. And the controller

496
00:20:06.808 --> 00:20:09.644
came back to me, said, confirm what kind of aircraft you are.

497
00:20:09.762 --> 00:20:12.508
We're at Charlie 130 and you're low on gas.

498
00:20:12.604 --> 00:20:14.530
Yes, it's been a very long day.

499
00:20:15.300 --> 00:20:16.544
Okay, cleared in.

500
00:20:16.582 --> 00:20:17.564
Direct the runway.

501
00:20:17.692 --> 00:20:18.444
Keep it quiet.

502
00:20:18.492 --> 00:20:19.504
So that's exactly what we did.

503
00:20:19.542 --> 00:20:21.456
We trying to be as respectful because.

504
00:20:21.478 --> 00:20:24.416
Usually when there's a repatriation ceremony going on, the airfield is shut down.

505
00:20:24.438 --> 00:20:27.364
There are no aircraft ops for respect for what's happening

506
00:20:27.402 --> 00:20:30.340
on the ramp. But we didn't have a choice. We were actually so

507
00:20:30.410 --> 00:20:33.348
concerned when we were taxing back to our ramp that one of

508
00:20:33.354 --> 00:20:36.170
the engines might flame out on the taxi back. We, uh,

509
00:20:36.314 --> 00:20:37.700
were less than 1000 pounds.

510
00:20:37.780 --> 00:20:40.648
On each main tank, which is crazy for a

511
00:20:40.654 --> 00:20:40.836
herc.

512
00:20:40.868 --> 00:20:43.480
It's super crazy because you can get to a point where there's still

513
00:20:43.550 --> 00:20:46.088
fuel in there, but the pumps won't pick it up

514
00:20:46.094 --> 00:20:46.740
anymore.

515
00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:49.624
So, yeah, we were nervous. Yeah.

516
00:20:49.662 --> 00:20:52.220
And for listeners, for anyone who's got a little bit of experience

517
00:20:52.290 --> 00:20:55.164
flying, that sounds like a lot of fuel. But it's so

518
00:20:55.202 --> 00:20:56.920
little fuel for a hurricane. It's wild.

519
00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:57.436
Yeah.

520
00:20:57.538 --> 00:20:58.748
Was not a comfortable situation.

521
00:20:58.834 --> 00:20:59.980
Yeah, no kidding.

522
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.844
Did you ever do any drops to Canadian Fobs?

523
00:21:02.972 --> 00:21:03.472
I did.

524
00:21:03.526 --> 00:21:06.336
We did one, uh, drop to a Canadian Fob. I did

525
00:21:06.358 --> 00:21:08.656
five drops overall in my time in

526
00:21:08.678 --> 00:21:10.892
Afghanistan. One was to a Canadian fob.

527
00:21:10.956 --> 00:21:13.240
They were middle of a firefight.

528
00:21:13.340 --> 00:21:16.308
They were low on ammo again, it was a get, uh, up and

529
00:21:16.314 --> 00:21:19.140
go kind of moment. So, uh, we were

530
00:21:19.210 --> 00:21:22.052
going in for the run and we noticed usually

531
00:21:22.106 --> 00:21:25.076
they light up the point where they want us to

532
00:21:25.098 --> 00:21:28.050
drop the load on with smoke. And we noticed that, uh,

533
00:21:28.050 --> 00:21:30.872
we were flying right over top of the Fob and the smoke was on the far.

534
00:21:30.926 --> 00:21:33.816
Side of the wall. And as

535
00:21:33.838 --> 00:21:34.984
we're coming in, the AC.

536
00:21:35.102 --> 00:21:36.648
Turned to the NAV, said, what do.

537
00:21:36.654 --> 00:21:39.496
You think about throwing this bundle on

538
00:21:39.518 --> 00:21:41.788
purposely? A little short for some of the.

539
00:21:41.794 --> 00:21:44.680
Bundles maybe to land inside the Fob. And this is a whole dangerous concept

540
00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:47.676
because you got these bundles coming in, they could land on the roof of

541
00:21:47.698 --> 00:21:48.732
something and break through.

542
00:21:48.786 --> 00:21:49.820
They could hurt people.

543
00:21:49.970 --> 00:21:52.736
These guys are engaged in a firefight, so they're up on the

544
00:21:52.758 --> 00:21:55.616
walls. And we said, yeah, let's do it. So we purposely threw it 100

545
00:21:55.638 --> 00:21:58.368
meters short of the, uh, there were six or

546
00:21:58.374 --> 00:22:01.276
eight bundle CDs. Four of the bundles

547
00:22:01.308 --> 00:22:03.856
landed inside the Fob walls and the other ones landed

548
00:22:03.888 --> 00:22:06.692
outside. And we peeled off,

549
00:22:06.746 --> 00:22:09.460
went directly back to Candehar, which took us 30 minutes

550
00:22:09.530 --> 00:22:12.356
before we shut down and immediately ran into ops and

551
00:22:12.378 --> 00:22:15.284
said, what happened? Yeah, and we found

552
00:22:15.322 --> 00:22:15.796
out by the.

553
00:22:15.818 --> 00:22:17.604
Time we got back, half the guys.

554
00:22:17.642 --> 00:22:20.388
Had come off the wall, opened up the bundles, grabbed the bullets

555
00:22:20.484 --> 00:22:21.016
back on.

556
00:22:21.038 --> 00:22:22.376
The wall, and by the time we.

557
00:22:22.398 --> 00:22:24.008
Had landed, the fight was over.

558
00:22:24.094 --> 00:22:26.932
Awesome. Um, and they were very appreciative

559
00:22:27.076 --> 00:22:27.336
of.

560
00:22:27.358 --> 00:22:29.240
Us actually dropping stuff right into the middle.

561
00:22:29.310 --> 00:22:29.592
Yeah.

562
00:22:29.646 --> 00:22:32.476
I mean, it would be pretty sketchy to have to go outside the walls to

563
00:22:32.498 --> 00:22:33.352
collect the ammo.

564
00:22:33.416 --> 00:22:33.836
Yeah.

565
00:22:33.938 --> 00:22:36.424
It's not something I would want to do in the middle of a firefight

566
00:22:36.472 --> 00:22:39.276
personally. So that's where our squad really got.

567
00:22:39.298 --> 00:22:42.016
Our pride from, was getting troops what they needed when they

568
00:22:42.038 --> 00:22:43.616
needed in not.

569
00:22:43.638 --> 00:22:44.892
The most ideal situations.

570
00:22:44.956 --> 00:22:47.856
What's the feeling when you land and you found out that it

571
00:22:47.878 --> 00:22:50.556
landed exactly where you wanted to and now they're safe?

572
00:22:50.668 --> 00:22:51.500
Purulation.

573
00:22:51.580 --> 00:22:54.516
Yeah, we were just chomping. It was

574
00:22:54.538 --> 00:22:54.916
awesome.

575
00:22:55.018 --> 00:22:56.516
It's what we do, it's what we.

576
00:22:56.538 --> 00:22:59.252
Train for, and we did it. And

577
00:22:59.386 --> 00:23:00.916
guys survived because of it.

578
00:23:00.938 --> 00:23:02.036
So it was awesome.

579
00:23:02.138 --> 00:23:03.430
Yeah. That's so cool.

580
00:23:04.520 --> 00:23:07.296
So what was life like in Kandahar Airfield? I've

581
00:23:07.328 --> 00:23:10.244
heard the, uh, rocket attacks there could be pretty intense. Did you ever

582
00:23:10.282 --> 00:23:11.156
experience any?

583
00:23:11.258 --> 00:23:14.036
Yep, one of my tours, we were.

584
00:23:14.058 --> 00:23:16.888
Actually counting how many rocket attacks were is how many missions we were flying.

585
00:23:16.984 --> 00:23:19.692
And there were more rocket attacks than we had missions. And

586
00:23:19.746 --> 00:23:22.636
sometimes we'd have seven rocket attacks in one day. Some days you'd have

587
00:23:22.658 --> 00:23:25.544
none. You'd be sleeping in the middle of night and all of a sudden you hear a big boom

588
00:23:25.592 --> 00:23:28.550
go off. You kind of got acclimatized to it.

589
00:23:28.550 --> 00:23:31.452
Mhm, which isn't the best thing to have happen. Like

590
00:23:31.586 --> 00:23:32.684
a rocket attack is going on.

591
00:23:32.722 --> 00:23:35.696
Get up, go to one of the shelters, wait. For the all clear, then go

592
00:23:35.718 --> 00:23:38.608
back to bed. But I remember one time I was in the

593
00:23:38.614 --> 00:23:40.492
gym working out in the American gym.

594
00:23:40.636 --> 00:23:42.436
I was on the treadmill, and the.

595
00:23:42.458 --> 00:23:45.408
Gym walls all got mirrors around them. And it's

596
00:23:45.424 --> 00:23:48.064
a big, big tent. And, uh, as I'm

597
00:23:48.192 --> 00:23:49.508
running with my.

598
00:23:49.594 --> 00:23:52.452
Earbuds in, listening to music, you could

599
00:23:52.506 --> 00:23:55.200
feel the concussion of the boom

600
00:23:55.360 --> 00:23:55.636
kind.

601
00:23:55.658 --> 00:23:58.568
Of hit you in the chest, and you could see all the mirrors kind

602
00:23:58.574 --> 00:24:00.360
of bow in and bow back out.

603
00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:00.904
Wow.

604
00:24:01.022 --> 00:24:03.876
And immediately off the treadmill, everyone's

605
00:24:03.908 --> 00:24:06.730
hitting the deck. I'm, um, like, okay, that one was close.

606
00:24:07.180 --> 00:24:09.836
So after the first 30 seconds, people get up.

607
00:24:09.858 --> 00:24:12.060
They're all rushing outside to go into the shelters.

608
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.244
I just beelined it down the road.

609
00:24:15.362 --> 00:24:18.012
Directly to our tent, because the rest of the crew was

610
00:24:18.066 --> 00:24:20.968
there, and they knew I was at the gym, but they also knew the rock

611
00:24:20.984 --> 00:24:23.936
attack was over by the gym. So I wanted to make sure they knew I was okay. But,

612
00:24:23.958 --> 00:24:25.008
yeah, I hightailed it down the.

613
00:24:25.014 --> 00:24:27.504
Road back to our tent, and

614
00:24:27.702 --> 00:24:30.448
there are two Hungarian I don't know if.

615
00:24:30.454 --> 00:24:33.316
They were pilots, but two Hungarian guys had gotten directly hit

616
00:24:33.418 --> 00:24:36.320
from that particular blast. They ended

617
00:24:36.320 --> 00:24:37.696
up surviving, but they suffered.

618
00:24:37.728 --> 00:24:39.860
Some pretty big wounds in their

619
00:24:39.930 --> 00:24:40.900
intestines.

620
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.176
How do you feel living in a place where rocket attacks

621
00:24:44.208 --> 00:24:46.264
can happen at any time?

622
00:24:46.462 --> 00:24:49.332
It's definitely nerve wracking, but you can't

623
00:24:49.476 --> 00:24:50.488
focus on it.

624
00:24:50.574 --> 00:24:52.490
Otherwise you're not going to be able to do your job.

625
00:24:53.260 --> 00:24:55.992
And like I said, they happen so often, and

626
00:24:56.126 --> 00:24:58.044
99% of the time, not.

627
00:24:58.082 --> 00:24:59.710
Happening near where you are.

628
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:02.716
You just become numb to

629
00:25:02.738 --> 00:25:03.164
it.

630
00:25:03.282 --> 00:25:06.136
And until one's happening really close to you, you don't

631
00:25:06.168 --> 00:25:09.116
really think about it. You hear the boom. Here goes

632
00:25:09.138 --> 00:25:10.376
the air raid sirens.

633
00:25:10.568 --> 00:25:13.104
Ten minutes later, air raid sirens for all

634
00:25:13.142 --> 00:25:15.184
clear. Go back on with your day.

635
00:25:15.222 --> 00:25:15.984
Flip your page over.

636
00:25:16.022 --> 00:25:18.720
Keep reading your book. Yeah, you couldn't focus on it.

637
00:25:18.790 --> 00:25:21.728
You really had to compartmentalize a lot of things when you're over there in

638
00:25:21.734 --> 00:25:23.168
order to do your job, from what.

639
00:25:23.174 --> 00:25:25.136
You saw, from what you heard, for.

640
00:25:25.158 --> 00:25:28.116
How you felt nothing at home, you really had to put it in its own

641
00:25:28.138 --> 00:25:29.828
little compartment and deal with it.

642
00:25:29.914 --> 00:25:31.204
At a different time.

643
00:25:31.402 --> 00:25:34.116
Did that one feel different where it was so close?

644
00:25:34.298 --> 00:25:35.652
Oh, it had my heart racing.

645
00:25:35.716 --> 00:25:38.216
Yeah, that one definitely caught, uh, my

646
00:25:38.238 --> 00:25:38.920
attention.

647
00:25:39.340 --> 00:25:42.056
But ironically, after that, it just went.

648
00:25:42.078 --> 00:25:43.684
Back to being I mean, I've caught.

649
00:25:43.732 --> 00:25:45.620
Reading a book here. Boom.

650
00:25:45.780 --> 00:25:47.964
I never really had any secondary effects from it.

651
00:25:48.002 --> 00:25:50.844
Okay. It's like I'm, um, one of the lucky ones. Keep

652
00:25:50.882 --> 00:25:53.484
going, man, that's crazy. It

653
00:25:53.522 --> 00:25:53.964
is.

654
00:25:54.082 --> 00:25:55.900
Again, uh, compartmentalization

655
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:58.496
is a great thing to be able to do.

656
00:25:58.598 --> 00:25:59.250
Yeah.

657
00:26:00.340 --> 00:26:03.164
When Canadians were killed, they needed to be repatriated

658
00:26:03.212 --> 00:26:05.980
to Canada. You've already mentioned repatriation

659
00:26:06.060 --> 00:26:09.036
ceremonies. Did you take part in any repatriation flights?

660
00:26:09.068 --> 00:26:11.828
And can you explain their repatriation process?

661
00:26:11.994 --> 00:26:14.628
Yeah, I took part in at least

662
00:26:14.714 --> 00:26:16.976
70 repatriation parades.

663
00:26:17.088 --> 00:26:19.476
And I brought back or started the.

664
00:26:19.498 --> 00:26:22.164
Journey home for 13 of

665
00:26:22.202 --> 00:26:23.956
the Canadians.

666
00:26:23.988 --> 00:26:25.892
Who had fallen in Afghanistan.

667
00:26:26.036 --> 00:26:29.000
So how it would work is

668
00:26:29.070 --> 00:26:32.008
we get message that one or more

669
00:26:32.174 --> 00:26:32.756
Canadian.

670
00:26:32.788 --> 00:26:35.736
Troops had been killed in action, and that we

671
00:26:35.758 --> 00:26:36.808
needed, uh, to get the.

672
00:26:36.814 --> 00:26:39.592
Bodies from Kandahar to the

673
00:26:39.646 --> 00:26:40.076
base that.

674
00:26:40.098 --> 00:26:41.164
We flew out of in the Middle.

675
00:26:41.202 --> 00:26:44.156
East, just south of Dubai. For they can be

676
00:26:44.178 --> 00:26:46.636
picked up by an Airbus, uh, to be then brought back to

677
00:26:46.658 --> 00:26:49.528
Trenton. So there would be a brief

678
00:26:49.544 --> 00:26:52.076
patching ceremony on the ramp in

679
00:26:52.098 --> 00:26:52.856
Kandahar.

680
00:26:52.968 --> 00:26:55.520
And you'd have anywhere from 1502,000

681
00:26:55.590 --> 00:26:56.252
troops.

682
00:26:56.396 --> 00:26:59.084
Not just Canadians, Americans, Aussies,

683
00:26:59.212 --> 00:26:59.916
French, whoever.

684
00:26:59.948 --> 00:27:02.880
Was there would come out. And we did this for every country.

685
00:27:02.950 --> 00:27:05.072
That was having one would line up.

686
00:27:05.126 --> 00:27:07.856
In two big groups on either side of the back of the plane,

687
00:27:07.888 --> 00:27:10.836
and the bodies would be loaded on. And then we would

688
00:27:10.858 --> 00:27:13.732
take the bodies, fly the bodies to the Middle East. We'd have another

689
00:27:13.786 --> 00:27:16.436
repatriation ceremony for the bodies coming off the

690
00:27:16.458 --> 00:27:19.364
plane to be put into storage until the

691
00:27:19.402 --> 00:27:20.008
airbots can.

692
00:27:20.014 --> 00:27:22.730
Come pick them up, which is usually a couple of days later,

693
00:27:23.260 --> 00:27:23.816
we'd have.

694
00:27:23.838 --> 00:27:26.596
Another repatriation ceremony for them to go on to the Airbus.

695
00:27:26.708 --> 00:27:29.128
And then when the Airbus arrived back in

696
00:27:29.134 --> 00:27:32.076
Trenton, there would be another repatriation ceremony for when

697
00:27:32.098 --> 00:27:34.876
the bodies came off, and then were placed into the hearses to be

698
00:27:34.898 --> 00:27:37.528
taken down highway 401 to Toronto.

699
00:27:37.624 --> 00:27:40.096
So basically, for every group of

700
00:27:40.278 --> 00:27:40.716
fallen.

701
00:27:40.748 --> 00:27:43.712
Soldiers that there were, you generally would have four

702
00:27:43.846 --> 00:27:46.630
repat ceremonies. Sometimes it was three.

703
00:27:46.630 --> 00:27:49.596
Um, one of my experiences, it was a three repatriation

704
00:27:49.628 --> 00:27:50.976
ceremony because when we.

705
00:27:50.998 --> 00:27:53.376
Offloaded the bodies out of the air.

706
00:27:53.398 --> 00:27:56.308
Base in the Middle East, they literally went off the Herc and onto the Airbus because

707
00:27:56.314 --> 00:27:57.424
the Airbus was already waiting.

708
00:27:57.472 --> 00:28:00.388
Okay, so they combined two into one.

709
00:28:00.554 --> 00:28:01.428
That makes sense.

710
00:28:01.514 --> 00:28:03.588
And how many repatriation parades did you.

711
00:28:03.594 --> 00:28:04.484
Say you've been to?

712
00:28:04.602 --> 00:28:07.032
At least 70. I mean, even if you're not

713
00:28:07.086 --> 00:28:09.816
flying an actual ceremony yourself, or a

714
00:28:09.838 --> 00:28:12.756
repet crew yourself, if you're not working, you're

715
00:28:12.788 --> 00:28:15.656
tending on the ramp. Whether it's in Kanahar or it's in the

716
00:28:15.678 --> 00:28:18.424
Middle East, you're attending the parade as the body's arriving

717
00:28:18.472 --> 00:28:19.320
or departing.

718
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:21.710
What's that like? Not fun.

719
00:28:21.830 --> 00:28:24.140
Um, that's

720
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:26.396
the area I had the.

721
00:28:26.418 --> 00:28:27.756
Hardest time dealing with, with my time.

722
00:28:27.778 --> 00:28:30.416
In Afghanistan, was the

723
00:28:30.438 --> 00:28:31.244
repatriation ceremonies.

724
00:28:31.292 --> 00:28:34.256
And turns out it wasn't so much the repatriation ceremonies that got to

725
00:28:34.278 --> 00:28:34.800
me.

726
00:28:34.950 --> 00:28:36.770
It was seeing the

727
00:28:37.860 --> 00:28:39.580
brothers in arms.

728
00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:41.108
Sisters in arms of those who had.

729
00:28:41.114 --> 00:28:44.084
Fallen, hurting really bad.

730
00:28:44.282 --> 00:28:47.184
That tore me up. I carried

731
00:28:47.232 --> 00:28:50.116
that. What I found out later that I.

732
00:28:50.138 --> 00:28:52.144
Dealt with through mental, uh, health therapy.

733
00:28:52.272 --> 00:28:55.184
Was pent up grief for them. I was grieving

734
00:28:55.232 --> 00:28:58.196
for them. I didn't have time to grieve for them. I had a job

735
00:28:58.218 --> 00:28:58.456
to do.

736
00:28:58.478 --> 00:29:01.412
I had to get in the plane of fly, go in compartmentalize,

737
00:29:01.476 --> 00:29:04.296
put it back your mind, deal with it later. Well, uh, I chose to deal with it

738
00:29:04.318 --> 00:29:07.272
16 years later when it started.

739
00:29:07.326 --> 00:29:08.612
Really building up for me.

740
00:29:08.766 --> 00:29:10.316
Those weren't flights we ever wanted to.

741
00:29:10.338 --> 00:29:13.276
Do, but it was definitely a job we had

742
00:29:13.298 --> 00:29:13.740
to do.

743
00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:16.044
Mhm, do any of those

744
00:29:16.082 --> 00:29:17.176
repatriation flights.

745
00:29:17.208 --> 00:29:19.948
Stand out to you? One does,

746
00:29:20.034 --> 00:29:21.096
specifically.

747
00:29:21.288 --> 00:29:24.272
I was at the end of one of my tours. We had actually

748
00:29:24.326 --> 00:29:25.248
already handed in all.

749
00:29:25.254 --> 00:29:26.480
Of our flying gear.

750
00:29:26.820 --> 00:29:29.532
It was the day before we were leaving.

751
00:29:29.676 --> 00:29:32.592
The AirBoss was already in the ramp in the base

752
00:29:32.646 --> 00:29:33.760
south of Dubai.

753
00:29:34.120 --> 00:29:36.948
We're going home the next day, and at 830 in the

754
00:29:36.954 --> 00:29:38.116
morning, we got.

755
00:29:38.138 --> 00:29:40.996
The call that four soldiers had died and they

756
00:29:41.018 --> 00:29:42.404
needed a repat ceremony that.

757
00:29:42.442 --> 00:29:45.124
Night in order to bring them back.

758
00:29:45.162 --> 00:29:47.268
For the Airbus to take home the next day.

759
00:29:47.434 --> 00:29:50.104
And there were no other crews available

760
00:29:50.302 --> 00:29:50.968
that could do it.

761
00:29:50.974 --> 00:29:53.928
The two crews, uh, were up in Afghanistan, were already flying around, so they were

762
00:29:53.934 --> 00:29:56.776
not available. And the other crew that was in Dubai was our

763
00:29:56.798 --> 00:29:59.644
replacement crew. They had just arrived, so they were not ready

764
00:29:59.682 --> 00:30:02.476
to go flying. And so they asked us, can you

765
00:30:02.498 --> 00:30:05.390
guys go do this trip? And we said,

766
00:30:05.760 --> 00:30:08.604
if guys go and sign all our gear out for us,

767
00:30:08.722 --> 00:30:11.676
and if they were able to pre flight the plane for us, we can go

768
00:30:11.698 --> 00:30:14.576
to know somewhat get some sleep now, because it was going to be an all

769
00:30:14.598 --> 00:30:15.248
nighter that we were going.

770
00:30:15.254 --> 00:30:17.936
To pull to do this, then, yeah, of

771
00:30:17.958 --> 00:30:18.528
course.

772
00:30:18.694 --> 00:30:21.568
So that's exactly what we did. We went to bed, got about three

773
00:30:21.574 --> 00:30:24.316
or 4 hours of sleep. We showed up 1 hour prior to takeoff.

774
00:30:24.348 --> 00:30:27.300
Normally show up 3 hours prior to takeoff. We showed up 1 hour.

775
00:30:27.450 --> 00:30:28.996
We were handed, uh, all of our.

776
00:30:29.018 --> 00:30:31.364
Gear that we had signed back in.

777
00:30:31.562 --> 00:30:33.384
Got right in the plane, fired up.

778
00:30:33.422 --> 00:30:35.736
Flew into Kandahar, and then did the.

779
00:30:35.758 --> 00:30:38.740
Repatriation ceremony in Kandahar on the ramp.

780
00:30:38.900 --> 00:30:41.704
And I remember once the parade was

781
00:30:41.742 --> 00:30:44.024
done, we would always give

782
00:30:44.142 --> 00:30:46.990
again the brothers and sisters of,

783
00:30:46.990 --> 00:30:49.080
uh, the fallen.

784
00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:52.156
Time, about five to ten minutes in the back of the plane to say

785
00:30:52.178 --> 00:30:52.904
their last goodbyes.

786
00:30:52.952 --> 00:30:55.756
And I remember looking in

787
00:30:55.938 --> 00:30:57.852
the back, seeing what again?

788
00:30:57.906 --> 00:31:00.600
I knew it bothered me, but I had to walk away from it, I

789
00:31:00.610 --> 00:31:01.968
couldn't see it.

790
00:31:02.134 --> 00:31:03.516
And I looked over on the ramp.

791
00:31:03.548 --> 00:31:06.496
And I saw this young captain. And I recognized him

792
00:31:06.518 --> 00:31:07.772
from my time at RMC.

793
00:31:07.916 --> 00:31:10.704
It was Captain Matt Daw. I knew

794
00:31:10.742 --> 00:31:12.684
Matt? Not closely.

795
00:31:12.812 --> 00:31:15.764
He was in another squadron from myself. I knew his

796
00:31:15.802 --> 00:31:18.756
brother, his older brother better, uh, Vince, because he was in my

797
00:31:18.778 --> 00:31:19.424
squadron.

798
00:31:19.552 --> 00:31:21.716
So we knew of each other and.

799
00:31:21.738 --> 00:31:24.164
He recognized me too. So I went over and talked to.

800
00:31:24.202 --> 00:31:25.876
Him and, um, I gave him my.

801
00:31:25.898 --> 00:31:27.636
Condolences for the loss of his men.

802
00:31:27.738 --> 00:31:29.476
And uh, I asked him how much.

803
00:31:29.498 --> 00:31:32.388
Time he had left in his tour and he said, three weeks. I

804
00:31:32.394 --> 00:31:33.428
was like, oh, that was kind.

805
00:31:33.434 --> 00:31:36.284
Of one of the worst times for.

806
00:31:36.322 --> 00:31:39.036
Any soldier going in and out. It's the first three weeks and last three weeks.

807
00:31:39.138 --> 00:31:41.244
First three weeks, you don't know what to be cautious for the last three.

808
00:31:41.282 --> 00:31:43.784
Weeks, your guard gets let down none.

809
00:31:43.832 --> 00:31:46.744
Not saying Matt let down his guard by any stretch of the imagination.

810
00:31:46.792 --> 00:31:48.170
Let me make that very clear.

811
00:31:48.170 --> 00:31:50.080
Um, it's just coincidence.

812
00:31:50.820 --> 00:31:52.850
Later on, things went bad.

813
00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:54.736
So he said, yeah.

814
00:31:54.758 --> 00:31:57.744
So we shook hands, I went and jumped in the front end,

815
00:31:57.782 --> 00:31:58.176
fired the.

816
00:31:58.198 --> 00:32:00.720
Plane, flew the bodies into Dubai.

817
00:32:01.220 --> 00:32:03.900
Bodies were offloaded from the Herc right onto the Airbus.

818
00:32:03.980 --> 00:32:06.880
We handed into our gear as we're walking off the Herc

819
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:09.904
to the guys that were waiting, and we walked right onto the Airbus

820
00:32:09.952 --> 00:32:12.404
and flew with the Airbus all the way home. So now I'm seeing

821
00:32:12.522 --> 00:32:15.444
literally every repat parade for these four

822
00:32:15.562 --> 00:32:17.210
soldiers that had passed away.

823
00:32:18.460 --> 00:32:20.084
And ah, when we got to Trenton.

824
00:32:20.212 --> 00:32:23.124
We obviously stayed on the plane while the bodies were unloaded

825
00:32:23.172 --> 00:32:25.064
and then put in the hearses where the families were.

826
00:32:25.102 --> 00:32:28.068
And then they were taken away. And about an hour

827
00:32:28.094 --> 00:32:28.636
later we were.

828
00:32:28.658 --> 00:32:30.700
Able to get off the plane and see our families.

829
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:34.108
And about ten days later, somewhere around there,

830
00:32:34.274 --> 00:32:36.988
I remember being at home, sitting on the

831
00:32:36.994 --> 00:32:39.630
couch, had a drink in my hand and

832
00:32:40.100 --> 00:32:41.228
I was watching CTV's.

833
00:32:41.244 --> 00:32:43.840
News Net and a news flash came up said, another

834
00:32:43.910 --> 00:32:46.732
Canadian soldier has been killed in Afghanistan.

835
00:32:46.876 --> 00:32:48.930
At that point, I remember standing up

836
00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:52.400
and then the picture of the soldier

837
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.980
popped up in the TV and it was Matt.

838
00:32:55.620 --> 00:32:58.596
Uh, and

839
00:32:58.618 --> 00:33:01.076
I remember I dropped the

840
00:33:01.098 --> 00:33:03.136
glass and it shattered on the floor.

841
00:33:03.168 --> 00:33:06.116
My wife was in the kitchen at the time. She's like, what's wrong? And I

842
00:33:06.138 --> 00:33:06.896
just pointed at the TV.

843
00:33:06.928 --> 00:33:09.690
And I said, I was just talking to him.

844
00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:11.530
What do you do?

845
00:33:12.300 --> 00:33:15.064
So the things that had bugged me over the years were

846
00:33:15.182 --> 00:33:17.752
seeing the guys grieving

847
00:33:17.816 --> 00:33:20.076
for their lost comrade, um, and.

848
00:33:20.098 --> 00:33:23.036
Then regretting what I had said to him. Why do you

849
00:33:23.058 --> 00:33:24.030
regret that?

850
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:26.364
I know what I said didn't lead.

851
00:33:26.402 --> 00:33:29.390
To him getting killed, but

852
00:33:29.760 --> 00:33:30.168
I wish.

853
00:33:30.184 --> 00:33:32.200
I'd never said, be careful, I don't.

854
00:33:32.210 --> 00:33:33.824
Want to do one of these for you.

855
00:33:34.022 --> 00:33:36.464
That one line is one of the things I wish I'd never

856
00:33:36.502 --> 00:33:37.090
said.

857
00:33:37.620 --> 00:33:40.544
And when I was going through therapy, I did

858
00:33:40.582 --> 00:33:42.144
written exposure therapy where you.

859
00:33:42.182 --> 00:33:45.168
Write out the whole event. And those were the

860
00:33:45.174 --> 00:33:48.068
two things where I got very upset when I was writing them out. And I

861
00:33:48.074 --> 00:33:50.928
realized it wasn't the whole repatriation somewhere that bugged

862
00:33:50.944 --> 00:33:53.616
me, it was those two concepts mhm, that really bugged.

863
00:33:53.648 --> 00:33:55.808
Me over the years. I mean, I just got a little.

864
00:33:55.834 --> 00:33:58.616
Bit upset recalling that now, but in the

865
00:33:58.638 --> 00:34:00.696
past when I would recall that.

866
00:34:00.878 --> 00:34:03.316
Memory, I would get a lot more upset.

867
00:34:03.348 --> 00:34:06.344
And I've told this one to you before and you've seen

868
00:34:06.382 --> 00:34:07.752
how upset I've gotten in the past.

869
00:34:07.806 --> 00:34:10.684
So the therapy has definitely

870
00:34:10.802 --> 00:34:11.276
helped me.

871
00:34:11.298 --> 00:34:13.212
Deal with that grief a lot better.

872
00:34:13.266 --> 00:34:16.156
Than how I was feeling in the past about it.

873
00:34:16.258 --> 00:34:19.196
That's good. I'm really glad to hear that. We're

874
00:34:19.228 --> 00:34:20.256
already getting into this a little.

875
00:34:20.278 --> 00:34:21.936
Bit, but how has being around all.

876
00:34:21.958 --> 00:34:23.890
That death and grief affected you?

877
00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:28.304
Yeah. So over the years,

878
00:34:28.502 --> 00:34:29.692
definitely around Remembrance.

879
00:34:29.756 --> 00:34:32.676
Day, um, you'd start seeing more images on the

880
00:34:32.698 --> 00:34:34.190
TVs, war movies and ah.

881
00:34:34.282 --> 00:34:37.092
Such, uh, of past wars in

882
00:34:37.146 --> 00:34:37.792
Afghanistan.

883
00:34:37.856 --> 00:34:40.836
War. And the memories of the repat parades would come up

884
00:34:40.858 --> 00:34:43.284
and I would start getting

885
00:34:43.322 --> 00:34:44.100
upset.

886
00:34:44.390 --> 00:34:47.248
Um, and over the

887
00:34:47.274 --> 00:34:48.664
years, I found.

888
00:34:48.782 --> 00:34:51.448
Especially over this past year, this time last

889
00:34:51.534 --> 00:34:54.488
November, usually it was like the first ten days leading up to and

890
00:34:54.494 --> 00:34:55.816
then a couple of days after, and.

891
00:34:55.838 --> 00:34:58.744
Then you wouldn't really have any feelings

892
00:34:58.792 --> 00:35:01.452
pop up for the rest of the year. Last

893
00:35:01.506 --> 00:35:04.204
year, I kept having feelings pop.

894
00:35:04.242 --> 00:35:07.004
Up after November's Day, like watching

895
00:35:07.042 --> 00:35:09.650
Chicago Fire, Chicago PD or something where

896
00:35:10.420 --> 00:35:11.436
someone was killed.

897
00:35:11.468 --> 00:35:13.456
And then there was grieving, or there.

898
00:35:13.478 --> 00:35:16.256
Was a ceremony tied with it, with grieving, uh, that would

899
00:35:16.358 --> 00:35:17.840
get me upset.

900
00:35:18.180 --> 00:35:20.450
And I realized that,

901
00:35:20.450 --> 00:35:23.170
um, it was becoming a problem

902
00:35:23.620 --> 00:35:24.850
and it was something.

903
00:35:25.240 --> 00:35:28.128
Having talked with you multiple times, you really encouraged

904
00:35:28.144 --> 00:35:29.216
me to go get seek.

905
00:35:29.248 --> 00:35:31.892
Some mental health help, and I finally

906
00:35:31.946 --> 00:35:34.324
did, and I'm so thankful that I did do

907
00:35:34.362 --> 00:35:36.804
that. It involved me getting grounded

908
00:35:36.852 --> 00:35:38.104
for six.

909
00:35:38.142 --> 00:35:40.968
Weeks over the summer. I ever want to ground a

910
00:35:40.974 --> 00:35:41.364
pilot.

911
00:35:41.412 --> 00:35:44.184
But yeah, it's the steps I had to go through.

912
00:35:44.222 --> 00:35:45.800
Yeah, sometimes you just have to.

913
00:35:45.870 --> 00:35:47.512
Yeah, sometimes you got to.

914
00:35:47.566 --> 00:35:50.396
And it's a process I'm glad I

915
00:35:50.418 --> 00:35:52.092
went through and was able to address.

916
00:35:52.146 --> 00:35:54.556
Those feelings almost immediately. When I was going through

917
00:35:54.578 --> 00:35:57.150
therapy, I found I was sleeping better at night.

918
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.616
Not that I ever had dreams about it, because I haven't

919
00:36:00.648 --> 00:36:03.216
never had really dreams about my time to Afghanistan. So I never really

920
00:36:03.238 --> 00:36:05.856
attributed me getting only 6 hours of sleep at

921
00:36:05.878 --> 00:36:08.848
night as a trigger from what happened in the past. But

922
00:36:08.854 --> 00:36:11.796
I all of a sudden found I'm sleeping seven and a half, 8 hours at

923
00:36:11.818 --> 00:36:14.404
night more consistently than I was

924
00:36:14.522 --> 00:36:17.476
previously. And I was feeling a lot

925
00:36:17.498 --> 00:36:20.224
better. I felt like the weight had been lifted

926
00:36:20.272 --> 00:36:20.916
off.

927
00:36:21.098 --> 00:36:24.036
But, uh, yeah, being around all that death, it

928
00:36:24.058 --> 00:36:25.104
affects everybody differently.

929
00:36:25.152 --> 00:36:26.632
Some people, they just block it out.

930
00:36:26.686 --> 00:36:29.384
Some people, they can't see it ever

931
00:36:29.422 --> 00:36:30.010
again.

932
00:36:30.940 --> 00:36:33.768
I can't do repatriation ceremonies again.

933
00:36:33.854 --> 00:36:35.850
That's just something

934
00:36:36.940 --> 00:36:38.076
as disrespectful as that.

935
00:36:38.098 --> 00:36:40.764
Might be, if I was told to do one, it's just I

936
00:36:40.802 --> 00:36:43.148
can't that's my limitation right there.

937
00:36:43.314 --> 00:36:45.180
I've done enough of those.

938
00:36:45.330 --> 00:36:48.124
You've done more than most as far as those go.

939
00:36:48.322 --> 00:36:50.416
Yeah. I'm glad it's behind me.

940
00:36:50.438 --> 00:36:51.328
I'm glad I got the help that.

941
00:36:51.334 --> 00:36:54.210
I needed and, uh, moving forward.

942
00:36:55.460 --> 00:36:58.428
Remembrance Day is approaching. As it approaches,

943
00:36:58.524 --> 00:37:01.330
how has Remembrance Day changed for you over the years?

944
00:37:01.910 --> 00:37:04.672
Uh, like I said, the days

945
00:37:04.726 --> 00:37:04.988
leading.

946
00:37:05.004 --> 00:37:07.956
Up to it in the past have been upsetting. I

947
00:37:07.978 --> 00:37:10.948
haven't had any problems so far, but also in the past. I

948
00:37:10.954 --> 00:37:13.876
used to give presentations for kids at the schools about my time

949
00:37:13.898 --> 00:37:14.036
in.

950
00:37:14.058 --> 00:37:17.028
Afghanistan, and seeing some

951
00:37:17.034 --> 00:37:17.420
of the pictures.

952
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:20.376
I would put in there, uh, would get me upset as

953
00:37:20.398 --> 00:37:21.144
I'm talking to kids.

954
00:37:21.182 --> 00:37:24.090
But I try to keep that under control as much as

955
00:37:25.420 --> 00:37:25.944
do those.

956
00:37:25.982 --> 00:37:27.148
I haven't done those in a while.

957
00:37:27.234 --> 00:37:29.910
But I'm very interested to see how this year goes.

958
00:37:29.910 --> 00:37:32.172
Mhm compared to previous years.

959
00:37:32.306 --> 00:37:34.668
Yeah, you're kind of in unexplored territory now.

960
00:37:34.754 --> 00:37:36.110
Yeah, I am.

961
00:37:36.640 --> 00:37:39.608
I've seen a few images on TV since I'd

962
00:37:39.624 --> 00:37:41.216
gone through therapy there and.

963
00:37:41.398 --> 00:37:44.336
Someone dying, a ceremony even happening,

964
00:37:44.438 --> 00:37:44.656
and.

965
00:37:44.678 --> 00:37:47.632
It didn't phase me anymore. The fact that

966
00:37:47.686 --> 00:37:50.656
I'm looking at this, I'm like, okay, I'm watching TV and it's not upsetting me

967
00:37:50.678 --> 00:37:51.196
anymore.

968
00:37:51.308 --> 00:37:52.144
That's good.

969
00:37:52.262 --> 00:37:55.136
So I have got hope for this coming year as to

970
00:37:55.158 --> 00:37:55.980
how I will do.

971
00:37:56.070 --> 00:37:56.564
Yeah.

972
00:37:56.682 --> 00:37:58.068
I'm sure at some point I'm going.

973
00:37:58.074 --> 00:38:00.260
To still feel a little upset, but.

974
00:38:00.410 --> 00:38:03.348
I really don't think it's going to be as bad as it's been in the past.

975
00:38:03.434 --> 00:38:06.090
Yeah, I'm really happy for you.

976
00:38:06.170 --> 00:38:08.090
Uh, that's awesome. Thanks.

977
00:38:08.780 --> 00:38:11.736
So with Remembrance Day right around the corner, if you could say one

978
00:38:11.758 --> 00:38:13.976
thing to Canadians about Remembrance Day and are.

979
00:38:13.998 --> 00:38:16.860
Fallen, what would it be? Never forget.

980
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.844
Never forget the sacrifice that's been made. Not just by

981
00:38:20.962 --> 00:38:22.344
those who have fallen.

982
00:38:22.472 --> 00:38:24.670
But then the families who are left behind.

983
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:28.912
The sacrifice that they made. The

984
00:38:28.966 --> 00:38:31.890
sacrifice that the soldiers who did come home

985
00:38:32.260 --> 00:38:34.796
are still making in terms of dealing with mental

986
00:38:34.828 --> 00:38:37.616
health, doing their job for this

987
00:38:37.638 --> 00:38:40.364
country and what their

988
00:38:40.502 --> 00:38:43.428
families are going through. Mhm there's a

989
00:38:43.434 --> 00:38:46.404
lot of people who have put

990
00:38:46.442 --> 00:38:48.870
a lot on the line, risked everything

991
00:38:49.560 --> 00:38:51.430
so that we can live

992
00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:53.976
in a society that we get to live in.

993
00:38:53.998 --> 00:38:56.856
Because there's a lot of countries in this world that do not have

994
00:38:56.878 --> 00:38:57.016
the.

995
00:38:57.038 --> 00:38:59.770
Freedoms and the level

996
00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:01.416
of life that.

997
00:39:01.438 --> 00:39:02.490
We get to experience.

998
00:39:03.740 --> 00:39:06.460
And it's sad that, uh, not everyone gets to experience

999
00:39:06.530 --> 00:39:08.740
that. Yeah. It's,

1000
00:39:08.740 --> 00:39:11.420
um, so easy to forget

1001
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:12.076
the.

1002
00:39:12.098 --> 00:39:14.924
Ripple effects that the losses and injuries have on

1003
00:39:14.962 --> 00:39:17.640
the people around. It's not just that soldier,

1004
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:20.796
it's all the people connected with them who feel that loss as

1005
00:39:20.818 --> 00:39:21.100
well.

1006
00:39:21.170 --> 00:39:21.790
Absolutely.

1007
00:39:23.040 --> 00:39:24.828
It goes a long way that ripple.

1008
00:39:24.844 --> 00:39:27.120
Effect goes a long way out and affects a lot of people.

1009
00:39:27.270 --> 00:39:30.096
So just always remember who's made those

1010
00:39:30.118 --> 00:39:33.088
sacrifices. Okay,

1011
00:39:33.174 --> 00:39:34.688
so we're going to end on.

1012
00:39:34.694 --> 00:39:37.670
A slightly lighter note and ask some questions. We always ask,

1013
00:39:38.200 --> 00:39:40.916
what is the most important thing you do to stay ready for the

1014
00:39:40.938 --> 00:39:41.412
job?

1015
00:39:41.546 --> 00:39:42.580
Take time for myself.

1016
00:39:42.650 --> 00:39:45.648
I said that before when I did pilot training, but even today

1017
00:39:45.834 --> 00:39:48.552
I've got a very busy job with staff work

1018
00:39:48.606 --> 00:39:50.548
and being a chief checkpoint and checking.

1019
00:39:50.564 --> 00:39:53.016
Guys out and teaching pilots such as.

1020
00:39:53.038 --> 00:39:55.796
Yourself how to be instructors and testing

1021
00:39:55.828 --> 00:39:58.612
them and getting ready for our new aircraft

1022
00:39:58.676 --> 00:40:01.390
training fleets that we're going to be getting in a couple of years.

1023
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:04.456
But you always have to take time for yourself. There's

1024
00:40:04.488 --> 00:40:07.356
always tomorrow. Whatever's happening today, at

1025
00:40:07.378 --> 00:40:07.708
the end of.

1026
00:40:07.714 --> 00:40:09.608
The day, it can wait till tomorrow.

1027
00:40:09.704 --> 00:40:11.744
Move on. But if you don't take time for.

1028
00:40:11.782 --> 00:40:14.508
Yourself, you can't put forth

1029
00:40:14.684 --> 00:40:17.520
that great effort into your job and into

1030
00:40:17.590 --> 00:40:17.824
all.

1031
00:40:17.862 --> 00:40:20.624
Those around you that they're expecting you to perform at.

1032
00:40:20.742 --> 00:40:22.256
It's very critical you take time for.

1033
00:40:22.278 --> 00:40:24.836
Yourself and do whatever it is that makes you

1034
00:40:24.938 --> 00:40:25.808
relax.

1035
00:40:25.984 --> 00:40:28.800
For me, it's ice fishing or watching TV,

1036
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:31.812
or being in the pool or being around a campfire. Whatever

1037
00:40:31.866 --> 00:40:32.996
it does for you to take.

1038
00:40:33.018 --> 00:40:35.876
Your mind off of work and bring.

1039
00:40:35.898 --> 00:40:38.888
It down so you can be recharged for the next day, that's what you

1040
00:40:38.894 --> 00:40:39.480
got to do.

1041
00:40:39.550 --> 00:40:40.168
Yeah.

1042
00:40:40.334 --> 00:40:43.224
I really like what you said about how it affects the others around

1043
00:40:43.262 --> 00:40:46.056
you as well. That's one thing that I've always noticed about you

1044
00:40:46.078 --> 00:40:48.972
is a big part of your passion is about is the student

1045
00:40:49.026 --> 00:40:51.884
getting the best possible instruction? Are they getting the best

1046
00:40:51.922 --> 00:40:54.856
possible learning experience? And, uh, it affects

1047
00:40:54.888 --> 00:40:57.436
so much more than just yourself if you're taking care of yourself.

1048
00:40:57.538 --> 00:41:00.456
Absolutely. Every instructor is personally

1049
00:41:00.488 --> 00:41:03.408
involved in the well being of their students. And not just their students, but the students they

1050
00:41:03.414 --> 00:41:06.144
see around them. We have a job. Our job is to teach. We

1051
00:41:06.182 --> 00:41:08.156
want to see our students succeed.

1052
00:41:08.268 --> 00:41:11.084
And if we see outside factors

1053
00:41:11.132 --> 00:41:13.250
affecting their ability to learn,

1054
00:41:14.100 --> 00:41:15.316
then it's our.

1055
00:41:15.338 --> 00:41:18.020
Obligation to step in and help solve those problems.

1056
00:41:18.170 --> 00:41:19.328
We may not be able to solve.

1057
00:41:19.344 --> 00:41:21.748
Those problems, but then we could send the student off to get

1058
00:41:21.914 --> 00:41:24.868
resolution to those problems so that they can be successful. They

1059
00:41:24.874 --> 00:41:27.640
can come back to training so they can be successful. It, uh,

1060
00:41:27.738 --> 00:41:30.536
costs a lot of money to make a pilot, and we don't want to waste that

1061
00:41:30.558 --> 00:41:33.528
money. And we want everyone to pass. We need everyone to

1062
00:41:33.534 --> 00:41:35.160
pass. We need more pilots.

1063
00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:38.488
So to be very cognizant of how

1064
00:41:38.494 --> 00:41:41.272
our students are doing, both performance wise.

1065
00:41:41.336 --> 00:41:44.076
On the course, but also mentally, you can see when your

1066
00:41:44.098 --> 00:41:47.004
students attitudes all of a sudden has changed, something's just not quite

1067
00:41:47.042 --> 00:41:48.556
right, and when you can.

1068
00:41:48.578 --> 00:41:50.700
Pick up on those cues.

1069
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:54.096
Because students will often not

1070
00:41:54.198 --> 00:41:54.704
be very.

1071
00:41:54.742 --> 00:41:57.568
Forthcoming with when stuff's going on. They think they can

1072
00:41:57.654 --> 00:42:00.368
deal with stuff in the background. You don't need to know as an.

1073
00:42:00.374 --> 00:42:03.008
Instructor, but we can see it sometimes.

1074
00:42:03.174 --> 00:42:06.144
You probably wouldn't be as able to do that kind of stuff if you were not also

1075
00:42:06.182 --> 00:42:08.788
taking care of yourself and making sure you're at the top of your game.

1076
00:42:08.874 --> 00:42:11.328
Absolutely. You always have to know your own limitations.

1077
00:42:11.504 --> 00:42:13.988
If you're at the point where you need to take a break, you got.

1078
00:42:13.994 --> 00:42:15.090
To call it what it is.

1079
00:42:15.090 --> 00:42:15.520
Mhm.

1080
00:42:15.520 --> 00:42:17.060
If you don't know your own limitations.

1081
00:42:17.220 --> 00:42:20.184
You can't be ineffective in

1082
00:42:20.222 --> 00:42:20.472
anything.

1083
00:42:20.526 --> 00:42:23.496
Whether it's being effective soldier, be an effective teacher, you can't take

1084
00:42:23.518 --> 00:42:25.756
care of yourself. You're going to lose out on that

1085
00:42:25.778 --> 00:42:26.536
effectiveness?

1086
00:42:26.648 --> 00:42:27.710
Yeah, absolutely.

1087
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.120
So you have a lot of experience instructing young pilots.

1088
00:42:32.200 --> 00:42:34.460
What would you say makes a good pilot?

1089
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:38.324
The ability to adapt to an ever changing

1090
00:42:38.392 --> 00:42:41.170
situation. We teach

1091
00:42:41.860 --> 00:42:42.716
students how to fly.

1092
00:42:42.748 --> 00:42:45.440
We teach them how to land, take off, fly around,

1093
00:42:45.590 --> 00:42:46.704
go up, go down.

1094
00:42:46.822 --> 00:42:49.628
Bad weather, good weather. But it's

1095
00:42:49.644 --> 00:42:52.604
all kind of a can scenario.

1096
00:42:52.732 --> 00:42:55.264
And we do it again and again and again. We just drill

1097
00:42:55.312 --> 00:42:57.140
in those basic

1098
00:42:57.560 --> 00:42:58.608
procedures.

1099
00:42:58.784 --> 00:43:01.264
Into you so it becomes second nature. So that all of a sudden,

1100
00:43:01.312 --> 00:43:01.956
when.

1101
00:43:02.138 --> 00:43:03.236
You go out to do it for.

1102
00:43:03.258 --> 00:43:05.924
Real and from what you've practiced, the situation you practice

1103
00:43:05.972 --> 00:43:08.116
in is changing constantly.

1104
00:43:08.148 --> 00:43:10.872
You're now able to have the

1105
00:43:10.926 --> 00:43:11.236
brain.

1106
00:43:11.268 --> 00:43:14.004
Capacity to deal with the, uh, ever changing

1107
00:43:14.052 --> 00:43:17.016
situation. And if you can't adapt to that changing situation, you just

1108
00:43:17.038 --> 00:43:19.256
freeze up. You're not going to be successful.

1109
00:43:19.368 --> 00:43:21.736
So those that, uh, are successful in the Canadian

1110
00:43:21.768 --> 00:43:24.556
forces are, ah, those that can adapt to change

1111
00:43:24.658 --> 00:43:27.548
on the fly without fail. They're the

1112
00:43:27.554 --> 00:43:30.464
ones that are going to have the easiest time. Yeah, I

1113
00:43:30.502 --> 00:43:31.490
agree with that.

1114
00:43:32.980 --> 00:43:35.090
Okay, so we're on our final question.

1115
00:43:35.540 --> 00:43:37.024
We'Ve changed it a little bit for.

1116
00:43:37.062 --> 00:43:39.904
Today'S topic and subject matter. What

1117
00:43:39.942 --> 00:43:42.656
advice would you give to young pilots who may encounter

1118
00:43:42.688 --> 00:43:43.424
grief and loss.

1119
00:43:43.472 --> 00:43:46.416
In the line of duty? Don't hide

1120
00:43:46.448 --> 00:43:48.790
it. Don't hide the pain.

1121
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:51.590
Don't think you can deal with it on your own.

1122
00:43:52.520 --> 00:43:55.050
There's tons of resources out there.

1123
00:43:55.660 --> 00:43:57.320
People who are professionally

1124
00:43:58.220 --> 00:43:59.690
adept at dealing.

1125
00:43:59.690 --> 00:44:02.330
Um, with this and helping you deal with this.

1126
00:44:03.180 --> 00:44:05.896
You'd be surprised how many people you are sitting

1127
00:44:05.928 --> 00:44:08.330
beside every day at work mhm.

1128
00:44:08.330 --> 00:44:09.724
Who are going through the exact same.

1129
00:44:09.762 --> 00:44:12.444
Thing totally and aren't seeing a thing.

1130
00:44:12.642 --> 00:44:15.596
You help me open up

1131
00:44:15.618 --> 00:44:17.740
to my problems. Yeah.

1132
00:44:17.810 --> 00:44:19.624
We have to realize you're not alone.

1133
00:44:19.672 --> 00:44:22.464
Right. Mhm, and it's huge. And then when I went and got.

1134
00:44:22.502 --> 00:44:24.544
My therapy, I found out other guys.

1135
00:44:24.582 --> 00:44:27.104
That I was working with were going.

1136
00:44:27.142 --> 00:44:28.110
Through their own things.

1137
00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:30.656
Mhm. So go get help. Yes.

1138
00:44:30.758 --> 00:44:33.644
That's one thing that I learned when I realized

1139
00:44:33.692 --> 00:44:36.516
I needed help was how many people around me were

1140
00:44:36.538 --> 00:44:39.536
going through something similar. And just that feeling

1141
00:44:39.568 --> 00:44:42.516
of I'm not alone, this is going to be okay, we

1142
00:44:42.538 --> 00:44:43.700
can all get through this.

1143
00:44:43.770 --> 00:44:44.960
Yeah, it's huge.

1144
00:44:45.050 --> 00:44:46.936
And by realizing a lot of other.

1145
00:44:46.958 --> 00:44:48.664
People are going through this stuff, it.

1146
00:44:48.702 --> 00:44:50.664
Gets rid of the stigma behind it.

1147
00:44:50.862 --> 00:44:52.120
You're not alone.

1148
00:44:52.460 --> 00:44:54.824
No one's looking down upon anybody for.

1149
00:44:54.862 --> 00:44:57.652
Dealing with what's going on. Yeah.

1150
00:44:57.806 --> 00:45:00.572
If anything, I, uh, look more

1151
00:45:00.626 --> 00:45:01.176
positively.

1152
00:45:01.208 --> 00:45:03.996
Upon a person who understands I need help and

1153
00:45:04.018 --> 00:45:06.956
is asking for help. I find it kind of ironic that

1154
00:45:07.058 --> 00:45:10.012
up until where I finally asked for help, I was all about

1155
00:45:10.146 --> 00:45:11.292
anyone working for me.

1156
00:45:11.346 --> 00:45:14.290
Go get help. Like with you, Brian, go get help.

1157
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:16.528
It was so easy for me to.

1158
00:45:16.534 --> 00:45:18.848
Tell people to go get help. But then when I was on the.

1159
00:45:18.854 --> 00:45:21.280
One in the other side of the chair,

1160
00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:22.816
needing help.

1161
00:45:22.918 --> 00:45:24.416
It was so much harder to ask for.

1162
00:45:24.438 --> 00:45:25.392
It was really scary.

1163
00:45:25.456 --> 00:45:28.212
It was very scary because you start running

1164
00:45:28.266 --> 00:45:31.060
these huge mind games, okay, if I ask for help,

1165
00:45:31.130 --> 00:45:34.032
I'm going to be out of a cockpit, I'm going to lose my career,

1166
00:45:34.096 --> 00:45:36.344
I'm out of the military. It's all going to go down

1167
00:45:36.382 --> 00:45:37.364
downhill.

1168
00:45:37.412 --> 00:45:37.576
Yeah.

1169
00:45:37.598 --> 00:45:38.884
You just catastrophize.

1170
00:45:39.012 --> 00:45:41.816
Absolutely. And I totally did. And my wife can

1171
00:45:41.838 --> 00:45:43.930
attest to that. Uh, I absolutely

1172
00:45:44.620 --> 00:45:47.064
was more concerned about my career than I was concerned about

1173
00:45:47.102 --> 00:45:49.876
me. And thankfully got past

1174
00:45:49.918 --> 00:45:50.508
that.

1175
00:45:50.674 --> 00:45:53.516
And, um, I'm one of the

1176
00:45:53.538 --> 00:45:53.912
cases.

1177
00:45:53.976 --> 00:45:56.892
Where I don't have to get out of the military. I was able to deal with it

1178
00:45:56.946 --> 00:45:58.670
before it got to the point where.

1179
00:45:59.600 --> 00:46:02.016
It really did affect my job and.

1180
00:46:02.038 --> 00:46:02.896
Now I'm able to go back to.

1181
00:46:02.918 --> 00:46:05.520
My so it's such a great success

1182
00:46:05.590 --> 00:46:06.208
story.

1183
00:46:06.374 --> 00:46:08.530
Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate it.

1184
00:46:08.980 --> 00:46:11.856
Mike, I just want to thank you so much for being here today.

1185
00:46:11.958 --> 00:46:14.892
And I know that some of these topics

1186
00:46:14.956 --> 00:46:17.716
and questions are not easy for you. So I just really

1187
00:46:17.738 --> 00:46:20.644
appreciate the courage that you've shown to come here and talk

1188
00:46:20.682 --> 00:46:22.836
about that. And I'm really excited to share this with

1189
00:46:22.858 --> 00:46:23.840
Canadians.

1190
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:26.616
Thanks for having me. And I know we've talked for quite.

1191
00:46:26.638 --> 00:46:28.690
A few years about doing this particular mhm

1192
00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:31.800
discussion and I'm very glad that today

1193
00:46:31.950 --> 00:46:33.144
we finally got to it.

1194
00:46:33.182 --> 00:46:34.170
Yeah, me too.

1195
00:46:34.940 --> 00:46:37.624
Remembers day can be a hard time of year for our

1196
00:46:37.662 --> 00:46:40.636
serving members, veterans and their families. If

1197
00:46:40.658 --> 00:46:43.468
you or someone you know is struggling right now, I'd like to

1198
00:46:43.474 --> 00:46:46.424
encourage you to reach out to the Canadian Forces Member

1199
00:46:46.472 --> 00:46:49.212
Assistance Program, or SIF Map. The number

1200
00:46:49.266 --> 00:46:50.940
is 1802

1201
00:46:51.010 --> 00:46:53.916
687708. I've

1202
00:46:53.948 --> 00:46:56.876
used it in the past. Your chain of command does not find out you're

1203
00:46:56.908 --> 00:46:57.296
using it.

1204
00:46:57.318 --> 00:46:59.436
It is confidential and they will hook.

1205
00:46:59.468 --> 00:47:02.252
You up with a specialist or therapist

1206
00:47:02.316 --> 00:47:05.172
in your area. So please, if you need it,

1207
00:47:05.226 --> 00:47:08.052
use it. That number again is 1802

1208
00:47:08.106 --> 00:47:11.044
687708. I

1209
00:47:11.082 --> 00:47:14.036
recommend you save it in your phone in case you or one

1210
00:47:14.058 --> 00:47:16.824
of your peers or subordinates need it. Stay

1211
00:47:16.862 --> 00:47:19.816
healthy out there. Okay? That's going to wrap up

1212
00:47:19.838 --> 00:47:22.724
our chat with Mike, talking about his time in Afghanistan

1213
00:47:22.772 --> 00:47:25.732
on The Hercules, as well as his experiences with Remembrance

1214
00:47:25.796 --> 00:47:28.756
Day. For our next episode, we'll be sitting down with my budy

1215
00:47:28.788 --> 00:47:31.484
Paul Goddard and talking about the Ch 149

1216
00:47:31.522 --> 00:47:34.444
Cormorant and search and rescue in the Royal Canadian Air

1217
00:47:34.482 --> 00:47:37.372
Force. Do you have any questions or comments about anything

1218
00:47:37.426 --> 00:47:40.204
you've heard on the show or would you or someone you know make a great

1219
00:47:40.242 --> 00:47:42.016
guest? You can reach out to us at

1220
00:47:42.038 --> 00:47:45.056
thepilotprojectpodcast@gmail.com

1221
00:47:45.238 --> 00:47:47.824
did you know that we make videos for every episode that we

1222
00:47:47.862 --> 00:47:50.844
create? These videos feature footage from RCAF

1223
00:47:50.892 --> 00:47:53.888
air crew and personnel and provide some unique perspectives that

1224
00:47:53.894 --> 00:47:56.660
you don't want to miss. Check it out on all social media

1225
00:47:56.730 --> 00:47:59.668
at at podpilot project. As it is the

1226
00:47:59.674 --> 00:48:02.484
week of Remembrance Day, we want to remind you to try to get out

1227
00:48:02.522 --> 00:48:05.092
and go to a Remembrance Day ceremony in your local

1228
00:48:05.146 --> 00:48:07.892
community, or maybe check out your local legion

1229
00:48:07.956 --> 00:48:10.744
and get to know your local veterans. As always,

1230
00:48:10.782 --> 00:48:13.608
we want to thank you for your time and for joining us this week.

1231
00:48:13.694 --> 00:48:16.520
And ask for your continued support in the Big Three

1232
00:48:16.590 --> 00:48:19.484
that's like and follow us on social media, share

1233
00:48:19.522 --> 00:48:22.428
with your friends and follow and rate us five stars wherever you

1234
00:48:22.434 --> 00:48:25.372
get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks

1235
00:48:25.426 --> 00:48:27.548
for listening. Keep the blue side up.

1236
00:48:27.634 --> 00:48:28.510
See you.

1237
00:48:30.240 --> 00:48:33.116
Engineer shut down all four. Shutting down all

1238
00:48:33.138 --> 00:48:33.720
four engines.