WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.839 Matt: Tessa, welcome to the WP minute. 00:00:01.839 --> 00:00:02.359 Tessa: Excited to be here. 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:05.199 Matt: I obviously know you from the WordPress space. 00:00:06.324 --> 00:00:10.934 You're not doing much WordPress these days, but I am excited to have a 00:00:10.954 --> 00:00:14.994 perspective from somebody who was really vested in WordPress, and now exploring 00:00:15.014 --> 00:00:16.745 other things in the web tech space. 00:00:16.745 --> 00:00:18.294 You're going to define that in a moment. 00:00:18.534 --> 00:00:21.654 but this series is all about sort of uncovering the challenges that 00:00:21.734 --> 00:00:25.774 freelancers, boutique agencies have had in 2024 running their business, 00:00:26.054 --> 00:00:30.214 your perspective into launching into 2025 and what that might look like. 00:00:30.464 --> 00:00:34.314 so for the uninitiated, what does Tessa do these days? 00:00:35.749 --> 00:00:37.459 Tessa: Oh, that's a loaded question. 00:00:38.679 --> 00:00:43.209 what Tessa does these days is I help anyone who is targeting 00:00:43.209 --> 00:00:46.139 developers as their user audience. 00:00:46.559 --> 00:00:47.819 and I help them go to market. 00:00:47.829 --> 00:00:51.269 So a lot of it, you know, it's market insights into that research, understanding 00:00:51.269 --> 00:00:54.739 those developers, understanding that technical stack that they're building 00:00:54.739 --> 00:00:57.829 within and helping them understand how to take that and actually go 00:00:57.829 --> 00:00:59.489 to market in an effective way. 00:00:59.809 --> 00:01:03.899 with developers, if, if folks don't know, developers are a little different, right? 00:01:03.899 --> 00:01:05.609 We don't really want to talk to salespeople. 00:01:05.609 --> 00:01:07.269 We don't want to talk to marketing people. 00:01:07.649 --> 00:01:10.399 So we got to find, you've got to find those people where they're at and really, 00:01:10.399 --> 00:01:12.029 truly engage in that authentic way. 00:01:12.029 --> 00:01:14.739 So it's kind of a TLDR, but, yeah. 00:01:15.139 --> 00:01:15.279 Yeah. 00:01:15.894 --> 00:01:17.314 Matt: I've seen a lot of roles. 00:01:17.314 --> 00:01:21.284 I mean, in fact, I would say that like my day job at gravity forms as. 00:01:21.779 --> 00:01:24.049 I don't even know what the official title is, don't tell my boss, but 00:01:24.049 --> 00:01:27.479 I think it's something like, you know, Community Lead for WordPress. 00:01:27.789 --> 00:01:32.399 it sort of gets bucketed into developer relations to a degree, though I'm not a 00:01:32.399 --> 00:01:35.549 developer, I'm much more of a, like, a power user, but so are a lot of, like, 00:01:35.549 --> 00:01:37.409 Gravity Forms users, they're power users. 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:41.129 you know, with X percent being, like, the real, you know, hardcore developer. 00:01:41.694 --> 00:01:45.424 And this is a role that I see, you know, Automatic constantly hiring 00:01:45.424 --> 00:01:47.604 for, especially now in WooCommerce. 00:01:47.604 --> 00:01:49.774 I've seen a lot of their job postings coming up with, 00:01:49.814 --> 00:01:51.194 with pushing into that space. 00:01:51.204 --> 00:01:54.494 A lot of hosting companies as well with developer relations. 00:01:54.504 --> 00:01:55.424 It's, it's important. 00:01:55.554 --> 00:01:58.284 It's like, you know, customer service for your product. 00:01:58.284 --> 00:02:01.374 At the end of the day, it's like, how do I reach these folks? 00:02:01.694 --> 00:02:05.149 And, you know, I like to think of it as, is it just because 00:02:05.419 --> 00:02:07.349 you can speak developer ish? 00:02:07.399 --> 00:02:09.479 Is that, like, the essence of this role? 00:02:09.489 --> 00:02:13.009 Because that's what it is for me, but is that the essence of DevRel in your world? 00:02:13.909 --> 00:02:17.159 Tessa: You know, yes, honestly, I think that it really is. 00:02:17.169 --> 00:02:17.509 Right. 00:02:17.519 --> 00:02:20.409 Cause at the end of the day, it's, you know, coming back to sort of the sense 00:02:20.409 --> 00:02:24.149 of, you know, we're like adverse to marketing, we're adverse to, you know, 00:02:24.149 --> 00:02:27.439 sort of sales, but even when you think about sort of the gravity form, right. 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:30.259 Power user over here, although I haven't built in WordPress in a couple of 00:02:30.269 --> 00:02:34.069 years, but love gravity forms, like, wow, can it do some awesome stuff? 00:02:34.459 --> 00:02:37.219 and that it's still sort of this like audience of people 00:02:37.219 --> 00:02:38.509 that are building things, right. 00:02:38.509 --> 00:02:39.489 They might not be the. 00:02:39.679 --> 00:02:41.889 Hardcore quote unquote developers, right. 00:02:41.899 --> 00:02:44.769 That we might be thinking of, but there's still developers on the list. 00:02:44.769 --> 00:02:45.729 They're like builders, right? 00:02:45.729 --> 00:02:47.089 They're bringing those things together. 00:02:47.089 --> 00:02:48.299 They're creating something. 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:52.849 And I think when you're that, that type of personality, it just works when 00:02:52.849 --> 00:02:54.619 someone authentically engages with you. 00:02:54.949 --> 00:02:59.039 and to actually kind of take that a step further, I've, I believe that if 00:02:59.059 --> 00:03:02.990 all companies started operating in the way that DevRel operates, where we get 00:03:02.990 --> 00:03:04.710 to know our audience and we actually. 00:03:04.885 --> 00:03:07.015 And authentically engage in them where they're at. 00:03:07.485 --> 00:03:10.225 I think everyone would find a lot of growth from that tactic. 00:03:10.225 --> 00:03:13.644 And so, yeah, fundamentally, I think that it's, it's really about getting 00:03:13.644 --> 00:03:16.155 down there and like hanging out with those users and like, who doesn't want 00:03:16.155 --> 00:03:17.595 that for, from a company, you know? 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:22.430 Matt: we are gonna, like, talk about the challenges of 2024, and then what your 00:03:22.430 --> 00:03:26.210 perspective is into 2025, but I love this topic, and I wanna go a little bit just 00:03:27.165 --> 00:03:29.745 This seems like, you know, a dream role. 00:03:29.745 --> 00:03:34.795 When I left my other career in, pod in the podcast industry, capital P and capital 00:03:34.815 --> 00:03:39.135 I, like being somebody who has been a podcaster for over a decade and then like 00:03:39.145 --> 00:03:40.475 had a career in it for a little while. 00:03:40.914 --> 00:03:42.304 I was like, man, this is, this is great. 00:03:42.314 --> 00:03:46.424 And I really started to see more dev rel stuff pop up, right. 00:03:46.464 --> 00:03:49.374 You know, be this community liaison, really know the product. 00:03:49.534 --> 00:03:50.424 It sounds great. 00:03:51.974 --> 00:03:55.174 And I'm sure, just like if you made a job posting for a content 00:03:55.174 --> 00:03:59.624 marketer, a gazillion people will come through the doors looking for this. 00:03:59.934 --> 00:04:01.294 How does one stand out? 00:04:01.304 --> 00:04:04.354 How does one really take this job serious where it's not just show 00:04:04.354 --> 00:04:07.574 up at word camps and high five each other and eat some cupcakes? 00:04:07.844 --> 00:04:11.624 What does it really take to be in this profession? 00:04:11.984 --> 00:04:12.934 Professionally. 00:04:13.889 --> 00:04:18.549 Tessa: Yeah, I love what you just said, because I think that a lot of 00:04:18.559 --> 00:04:25.029 sort of DevRel as a, as a big tech trend, so let's call it that, right? 00:04:25.029 --> 00:04:26.959 Because DevRel has been around for years. 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:28.759 I mean, Apple started it back in the seventies. 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:31.259 They, they understood that technical audiences were different. 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:34.679 They needed to approach it differently, but when you look at it today, and 00:04:34.679 --> 00:04:37.389 even honestly, when you look at sort of DevRel programs that were created over 00:04:37.389 --> 00:04:40.230 the pandemic time, it was a lot of that. 00:04:40.440 --> 00:04:43.420 It was a lot of eating cupcakes and hanging with your friends and it 00:04:43.430 --> 00:04:45.430 does work and it can work, right? 00:04:45.700 --> 00:04:48.380 But at the end of the day, it only works for so long and if you're actually 00:04:48.380 --> 00:04:51.840 not focused and targeted and being really strategic about where you're 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:55.680 eating those cupcakes, that value isn't going to be there and so I think that 00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:01.080 I feel is the true essence of DevRel is actually being that voice, right? 00:05:01.080 --> 00:05:02.480 You're that voice for the company. 00:05:02.490 --> 00:05:04.310 And it's not that you're the only voice for the company. 00:05:04.310 --> 00:05:07.380 Of course, there are many people inside of a company that should and could be a voice 00:05:07.390 --> 00:05:11.519 for a company, but you are that voice with that user base that you are focused on. 00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:11.790 Right. 00:05:11.790 --> 00:05:14.800 And so you're out there, you're advocating for the company, you're learning, you're 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:16.610 absorbing, you're hanging with the peers. 00:05:16.995 --> 00:05:20.585 Ideally, they're falling into that very perfect target audience 00:05:20.585 --> 00:05:22.105 that your company is looking for. 00:05:22.395 --> 00:05:25.525 and you're bringing everything that you're learning back to the company. 00:05:25.555 --> 00:05:30.154 And I think that there's often that, that gap or that void where the insights 00:05:30.154 --> 00:05:33.255 aren't being brought back to the company so that we can continually improve 00:05:33.534 --> 00:05:37.305 what marketing is working, what sales tactics will work, what products. 00:05:37.525 --> 00:05:39.895 You know, feature, should we pivot to, should we bring in, 00:05:39.895 --> 00:05:41.125 what are we not considering? 00:05:41.125 --> 00:05:41.465 Right. 00:05:41.805 --> 00:05:45.705 and so I think a really good Devereux program, although yes, lovely job, 00:05:45.715 --> 00:05:47.215 I've had it for the last 10 years. 00:05:47.235 --> 00:05:48.714 It can be really beautiful. 00:05:49.075 --> 00:05:53.935 It also is a job where like you are tasked with driving some sort of 00:05:53.935 --> 00:05:55.635 objective or some sort of results. 00:05:55.635 --> 00:05:55.894 Right. 00:05:55.894 --> 00:06:00.025 And those results need to be clear and the company needs to see that. 00:06:00.025 --> 00:06:03.775 And so that kind of speaks to sort of the, the COVID trends we were seeing 00:06:03.775 --> 00:06:06.155 in which Devereux was created and that. 00:06:06.265 --> 00:06:09.805 That impact was just not as visible as it needed to be. 00:06:10.395 --> 00:06:14.405 Matt: Yeah, once again, I have, and I'm curious on the, on the exterior, 00:06:14.405 --> 00:06:18.904 if you can comment on the exterior of the WordPress community, but I 00:06:18.935 --> 00:06:23.125 am lucky enough, obviously to have the role that I have at, at Gravity 00:06:23.125 --> 00:06:24.704 Forms to do this kind of thing. 00:06:25.034 --> 00:06:27.544 and I also come with, you know, once again, I. 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:32.110 I've been like, building community and connecting with others for over 00:06:32.110 --> 00:06:35.500 a decade, having run my own agency and then just like, doing this 00:06:35.500 --> 00:06:40.350 whole podcasting thing to just keep my ear to the ground of WordPress. 00:06:41.100 --> 00:06:45.760 Which It's very hard to like quantify that to your boss, 00:06:46.635 --> 00:06:46.875 Tessa: It 00:06:47.100 --> 00:06:50.620 Matt: you know, but it, but it's such a huge part of the, the, 00:06:50.630 --> 00:06:55.219 the relations, you know, phrase in developer relations, right? 00:06:55.220 --> 00:07:00.880 It's like, I spend my time talking to people and understanding the market. 00:07:01.140 --> 00:07:04.240 So that I can relay this back to product. 00:07:04.270 --> 00:07:05.960 I can relay this back to marketing. 00:07:05.980 --> 00:07:09.430 I can relay this back to C suite to understand what's happening 00:07:09.450 --> 00:07:11.070 over here in the WordPress space. 00:07:11.429 --> 00:07:16.440 So I find it easy in the WordPress space because it is big, but also insular. 00:07:16.440 --> 00:07:20.330 And we have a tight group of people and I can stay connected to these people. 00:07:20.330 --> 00:07:23.510 But I can, I can only imagine that that might be difficult. 00:07:23.580 --> 00:07:27.470 So, on the exterior of WordPress, like other platforms, other coding 00:07:27.470 --> 00:07:31.950 tools, other technologies, is it challenging and how do you quantify that 00:07:31.950 --> 00:07:33.950 relationship part in this whole thing? 00:07:34.545 --> 00:07:35.095 Tessa: Yeah. 00:07:35.165 --> 00:07:36.495 Ooh, that's a loaded question. 00:07:37.225 --> 00:07:41.055 you know, I think when you look at sort of these, you know, thinking about 00:07:41.055 --> 00:07:44.804 WordPress, I think WordPress has this, this ecosystem and this community around 00:07:44.804 --> 00:07:46.934 it that makes it feel so tight, right? 00:07:46.934 --> 00:07:50.705 It makes you feel like when you're there, when you're hanging with those people, 00:07:51.215 --> 00:07:53.724 you really, you feel connected, right? 00:07:53.724 --> 00:07:54.965 You feel very well connected. 00:07:54.965 --> 00:07:57.455 I think that's the beautiful thing of WordPress or, you know, has. 00:07:58.020 --> 00:08:01.230 Has has been the beautiful thing in WordPress most recently. 00:08:01.289 --> 00:08:02.219 Maybe that's shifting. 00:08:02.219 --> 00:08:02.699 We'll see. 00:08:03.179 --> 00:08:05.940 but I think that, you know, when you're in these other ecosystems, 00:08:05.940 --> 00:08:07.020 it's no different, right? 00:08:07.020 --> 00:08:08.010 They're all the same. 00:08:08.010 --> 00:08:12.219 There's always, there's this, this sort of, ecosystem around anything. 00:08:12.219 --> 00:08:12.519 Right? 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:15.039 And is this kind of like where you're, where you're asking sort 00:08:15.039 --> 00:08:17.440 of, it feels like it's easy to stay connected in a WordPress, but maybe 00:08:17.440 --> 00:08:19.239 not as easy in other, other spaces. 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:20.719 Matt: Yeah. 00:08:20.779 --> 00:08:21.209 Yes. 00:08:21.670 --> 00:08:23.670 Tessa: yeah, and I think that it can feel that way. 00:08:23.690 --> 00:08:27.489 So going back to when I was in WordPress in my prime, right. 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:30.670 I had shifted out of WordPress and took a role at CircleCI, right. 00:08:30.700 --> 00:08:34.039 I was like, yes, I'm nerding out on this CI, CD stuff. 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:34.809 This is fun. 00:08:34.829 --> 00:08:35.559 I love it. 00:08:35.930 --> 00:08:39.760 WordPress played a pivotal role in my career from the beginning up until 00:08:39.789 --> 00:08:41.569 I, you know, moved on to that role. 00:08:41.740 --> 00:08:42.629 And honestly still does. 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:43.690 I have WordPress clients today. 00:08:44.150 --> 00:08:45.120 I was worried about that. 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:48.159 I was worried getting out of an ecosystem that I was so deeply tied in and so 00:08:48.160 --> 00:08:52.000 deeply, I don't want to say known, but then my connections were deep, right? 00:08:52.370 --> 00:08:53.239 they all happen. 00:08:53.389 --> 00:08:56.449 Everywhere you go, because at the end of the day, if you're the kind of person 00:08:56.449 --> 00:08:59.359 that thrives on that, you enjoy hanging out with people, you enjoy meeting 00:08:59.359 --> 00:09:02.759 people, you enjoy being a part of that ecosystem and bringing all those great 00:09:02.769 --> 00:09:05.409 insights back, you're going to find your current, no matter where you go. 00:09:05.659 --> 00:09:07.029 it can feel scarier though, right? 00:09:07.029 --> 00:09:09.359 Because you're going into something new and you're still trying to sort of. 00:09:09.430 --> 00:09:11.550 Forge that in, but, it's actually interesting. 00:09:11.570 --> 00:09:14.930 I've been pulling together sort of these just one off developer events where I'm 00:09:14.930 --> 00:09:19.800 like, Hey, just come hang out because I'm realizing how much we like deeply miss the 00:09:19.810 --> 00:09:22.480 community driven events and engagement. 00:09:22.800 --> 00:09:24.929 and so, I think honestly, when you're looking at other ecosystems, 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:26.439 it's no different, right? 00:09:26.439 --> 00:09:29.769 It's just like, how do we start to dive into that ecosystem? 00:09:29.779 --> 00:09:30.119 Who's. 00:09:30.164 --> 00:09:31.194 Who are the players in there? 00:09:31.194 --> 00:09:31.414 And right. 00:09:31.414 --> 00:09:32.894 How do we just put ourself out there? 00:09:33.124 --> 00:09:34.704 And I think that's the biggest thing, right? 00:09:34.714 --> 00:09:37.974 And I think that's why, like, you're so great at your job and why you are so, 00:09:38.284 --> 00:09:42.204 you know, able to do like, what is like such a fun quote unquote job, right? 00:09:42.234 --> 00:09:45.694 Is this because you're able to go out there, build those relationships, 00:09:45.734 --> 00:09:48.884 understand what businesses need from all of your experience, right. 00:09:48.884 --> 00:09:49.994 And be able to bring that forward. 00:09:49.994 --> 00:09:53.224 And I think if anyone has those chops or those, you know, in 00:09:53.284 --> 00:09:54.954 interests in doing so, right. 00:09:54.974 --> 00:09:57.574 Like you're going to have that interest, no matter what ecosystem you're in. 00:09:58.189 --> 00:10:01.059 Matt: Yeah, let's start to talk about some of the challenges, but we're 00:10:01.059 --> 00:10:02.239 going to keep it with you first. 00:10:02.239 --> 00:10:06.119 And we're going to keep it under the umbrella of developer relations here. 00:10:06.339 --> 00:10:11.049 When you're looking for clients, do you have to target clients that understand 00:10:11.169 --> 00:10:14.149 what community means to their brand? 00:10:14.889 --> 00:10:17.779 I can imagine like some, you know, software company being 00:10:17.779 --> 00:10:20.169 like, we need developer relations. 00:10:20.369 --> 00:10:22.039 We don't know anything about community. 00:10:22.719 --> 00:10:24.299 We've never invested in it before. 00:10:24.439 --> 00:10:27.949 I can imagine that's like, you know, a WordPress freelancer going, I'm going 00:10:27.949 --> 00:10:30.979 to go build a website for a restaurant because their website is terrible. 00:10:30.979 --> 00:10:35.239 But then you find out that restaurant website owners are just way too busy. 00:10:35.239 --> 00:10:36.269 They don't have the budget. 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:37.699 They don't have the technical understanding. 00:10:37.699 --> 00:10:40.339 So it's a bad fit for a client. 00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:41.229 it looks like. 00:10:41.499 --> 00:10:43.119 Oh, obvious low hanging fruit. 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:45.839 And then you get there and it's like, Oh, this is just a rotten apple. 00:10:45.839 --> 00:10:46.729 This is not going to help. 00:10:47.019 --> 00:10:50.749 is that the same particular challenge that you might face when you're trying to find 00:10:51.069 --> 00:10:53.189 customers that just don't get community? 00:10:53.614 --> 00:10:54.184 Tessa: Yeah. 00:10:54.214 --> 00:10:55.314 Ooh, that's a good question. 00:10:55.354 --> 00:10:55.654 Okay. 00:10:55.654 --> 00:11:03.534 So yes, that is very much a trend and sentiment in what I would say, Would 00:11:03.534 --> 00:11:05.154 be in more established companies. 00:11:05.404 --> 00:11:08.764 So in throughout my career, I have been at what I would say 00:11:08.764 --> 00:11:10.144 is more established companies. 00:11:10.144 --> 00:11:11.464 I've been at some startups, right. 00:11:11.474 --> 00:11:13.084 And I've also been at some enterprise companies. 00:11:13.084 --> 00:11:16.994 Most recently left Snapchat, where I was leading the, the AR SDK over there. 00:11:16.994 --> 00:11:19.304 So it's like a pretty big deal working with enterprise companies 00:11:19.314 --> 00:11:20.544 to get that integrated and such. 00:11:20.544 --> 00:11:21.644 So different. 00:11:21.954 --> 00:11:24.404 So coming into, I would say sort of middle. 00:11:24.794 --> 00:11:28.044 Stage startup into enterprise and sort of beyond. 00:11:28.464 --> 00:11:29.104 Absolutely. 00:11:29.134 --> 00:11:32.344 There's like a, there is definitely a shift that you have to start to 00:11:32.344 --> 00:11:36.564 almost like forge with them around, Hey, here's why developer relations 00:11:36.564 --> 00:11:39.514 is valuable and sometimes they have technical founders, right? 00:11:39.514 --> 00:11:42.954 They, they, they're years from it because they're established companies. 00:11:42.954 --> 00:11:43.144 Right. 00:11:43.144 --> 00:11:44.954 But they, they forget. 00:11:44.979 --> 00:11:47.319 They like forget what it's like to be a developer. 00:11:47.319 --> 00:11:49.429 They forget what it's like to sort of be this user. 00:11:49.429 --> 00:11:52.159 That's like, yeah, I don't want to hang out with sales or marketing. 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.089 And I kind of just want to find my crew, you know? 00:11:54.449 --> 00:11:59.059 and so, yes, however, in my scenario, I targeted my, 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:00.349 Essentially my target audience. 00:12:00.349 --> 00:12:04.319 So I didn't have to do that work because I'm so burnt out on that work. 00:12:04.329 --> 00:12:08.689 It's something that in DevRel is very common to have to advocate for. 00:12:08.689 --> 00:12:10.879 Here's what DevRel and here's why we do it. 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:12.469 And here's how developers think. 00:12:12.709 --> 00:12:13.949 And it gets exhausting, right? 00:12:13.949 --> 00:12:17.209 It's like having an accountant constantly having to tell you, you have to do your 00:12:17.209 --> 00:12:19.329 taxes, you have to pay your bills, right? 00:12:19.329 --> 00:12:22.029 Like no one wants to chase down someone. 00:12:22.129 --> 00:12:24.089 Matt: want to lose weight, Matt, stop eating pizza. 00:12:24.139 --> 00:12:25.109 It's just like, oh yeah, 00:12:25.509 --> 00:12:26.709 Tessa: but pizza, so good. 00:12:26.939 --> 00:12:27.269 Matt: good. 00:12:28.199 --> 00:12:33.619 Tessa: but in my business I focus on early stage DevTool technical founders. 00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:36.149 And so I did that for, obviously, you can probably figure out a number 00:12:36.149 --> 00:12:37.359 of reasons, technical founders. 00:12:37.389 --> 00:12:38.429 I want to hang out my peers. 00:12:38.429 --> 00:12:39.409 I want to hang out with other devs. 00:12:39.499 --> 00:12:40.309 Cause I'm a dev. 00:12:40.709 --> 00:12:42.109 but then on the early stage, right. 00:12:42.119 --> 00:12:47.119 They're not thinking about, Oh, community versus not community versus whatever. 00:12:47.119 --> 00:12:47.439 Right. 00:12:47.449 --> 00:12:48.659 They're thinking about growth. 00:12:48.889 --> 00:12:50.009 All they care about is growth. 00:12:50.019 --> 00:12:51.719 They need to get developers to their platform. 00:12:51.719 --> 00:12:53.739 They don't really care about the technique. 00:12:53.989 --> 00:12:56.159 They just want to know what's going to be the best approach to 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:57.629 drive that growth immediately. 00:12:57.829 --> 00:12:58.789 And so they're eager. 00:12:58.789 --> 00:13:01.409 They're, You know, they're scrappy, they're fast moving. 00:13:01.649 --> 00:13:02.469 those are my people. 00:13:02.599 --> 00:13:07.229 And so in that case, I don't have to explain it to them because they, for 00:13:07.229 --> 00:13:10.709 the most part are a lot closer to the original days of building their product. 00:13:10.709 --> 00:13:12.279 They're a lot closer to being a developer. 00:13:12.529 --> 00:13:15.739 and now there are a lot of really great resources, out in the 00:13:15.739 --> 00:13:18.599 world that are really speaking to DevRel and why it's so valuable. 00:13:18.599 --> 00:13:21.289 And so most of them come in with some. 00:13:21.659 --> 00:13:24.079 Some understanding that developer relations and community 00:13:24.079 --> 00:13:25.249 is going to be valuable. 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.809 but if they don't, it's still us talking about, Hey, you have to be where your 00:13:28.809 --> 00:13:31.419 devs are because they're not going to, they're not going to come through 00:13:31.469 --> 00:13:35.989 ads or these other technical channels, not technical, normal channels. 00:13:36.499 --> 00:13:36.779 Matt: right. 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:42.779 I want to try to pull together the experiences that you, that you have 00:13:42.779 --> 00:13:47.039 now sort of outside of WordPress and, how it might relate to the, 00:13:47.119 --> 00:13:50.119 the WordPress listener that, that we have, listening to us right now. 00:13:50.569 --> 00:13:54.479 I was talking to, my writer, Eric Karkovac, earlier today, and we were 00:13:54.479 --> 00:13:58.759 just like, Just talking about the industry in general, and one of the 00:13:58.769 --> 00:14:03.209 things that I still see today in the WordPress world, I stumbled upon a plugin 00:14:03.549 --> 00:14:05.769 that I just found interesting, never heard about it before, but I hit the 00:14:05.769 --> 00:14:07.389 pricing page and it was the typical 47. 00:14:08.729 --> 00:14:12.029 97, 147 for the price, and I'm like, okay. 00:14:12.204 --> 00:14:14.054 Are we still doing that in 2024? 00:14:14.294 --> 00:14:16.844 Like, are we still, that's what we're still charging these days? 00:14:17.054 --> 00:14:19.004 We all realize we're heading into 2025, right? 00:14:19.004 --> 00:14:21.794 And like, sustainability and survivability is like, a thing, and 00:14:21.794 --> 00:14:25.174 like, making money isn't bad, and the prices should go up, because the 00:14:25.174 --> 00:14:27.114 prices of my bananas have gone up. 00:14:27.364 --> 00:14:30.364 so certainly this piece of software should go up. 00:14:30.704 --> 00:14:34.504 Is there a thread there that you, that you see now being on the exterior of WordPress 00:14:34.534 --> 00:14:38.764 learning from all these other bigger tech, outfits, or even the startup outfits that 00:14:38.764 --> 00:14:43.244 you're working with, that you look at and say, Hey, WordPress, get, get a little 00:14:43.244 --> 00:14:47.014 bit better with this thing that you're doing, whether that's pricing or packaging 00:14:47.014 --> 00:14:49.254 or presenting to, to your end user. 00:14:49.514 --> 00:14:52.364 Is there a thread there that, that you can pull on that from 00:14:52.364 --> 00:14:53.374 your experience these days? 00:14:53.849 --> 00:14:57.459 Tessa: Yeah, I love what you said there because I was definitely picked up a 00:14:57.459 --> 00:15:00.889 lot of what you were saying in terms of, you know, sort of the advancements. 00:15:01.259 --> 00:15:01.739 yes. 00:15:01.769 --> 00:15:05.989 And so here's the thing, like, and I spent a great deal of time in Drupal as well. 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.259 and before that in Joomla, so I've got like just a great deal of sort of the 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.009 open source kind of that vibe, right? 00:15:12.019 --> 00:15:13.529 The people are different. 00:15:13.579 --> 00:15:17.469 And so I think what's really interesting about that is that we see in WordPress, 00:15:17.489 --> 00:15:22.379 a very open source mentality type of a pricing structure, right? 00:15:22.389 --> 00:15:25.489 Which is very much what you're alluding to the, I'm just going to 00:15:25.489 --> 00:15:26.749 charge you a little bit of money. 00:15:26.749 --> 00:15:29.659 And maybe even sometimes you're getting a lifetime license, or even sometimes 00:15:29.659 --> 00:15:34.199 you're getting, you know, all the bells and whistles for 47, which, you'll 00:15:34.199 --> 00:15:35.819 never see that in big tech, right? 00:15:35.859 --> 00:15:36.619 Absolutely. 00:15:36.619 --> 00:15:37.609 We'll never see that. 00:15:37.699 --> 00:15:41.099 And there, there is, there's good and there's bad here, right? 00:15:41.099 --> 00:15:44.179 And I think that when we look at the WordPress community and the people who 00:15:44.179 --> 00:15:48.389 are, who are the developers who are used to the open source kind of model 00:15:48.389 --> 00:15:52.669 and methodology, even in big tech, you will see them not charging as much. 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:55.189 You will also see them giving away things for free. 00:15:55.429 --> 00:15:58.939 You will see them, you know, building big, beautiful projects with no 00:15:58.959 --> 00:16:02.869 monetary value, because that's the mission and what they want to do. 00:16:03.369 --> 00:16:04.239 However. 00:16:04.494 --> 00:16:06.534 There's always going to be that, right? 00:16:06.534 --> 00:16:09.524 There's always going to be that open source version or that free 00:16:09.524 --> 00:16:11.294 version or that freemium version. 00:16:11.754 --> 00:16:15.424 I think that in the cases of WordPress, I think that what is 00:16:15.424 --> 00:16:19.364 happening is that folks feel like because the ones that may be vocal or 00:16:19.364 --> 00:16:20.954 the ones that they're experiencing. 00:16:21.339 --> 00:16:25.949 Are the ones that only want to pay the 47 and this is very much where it comes into 00:16:25.949 --> 00:16:28.769 a lot of the work that I do in my business in the early part when I'm working 00:16:28.769 --> 00:16:30.479 with a client is the market research. 00:16:30.699 --> 00:16:34.409 How can we understand the value at which a tool or a product for 00:16:34.409 --> 00:16:37.799 a developer is providing and what are they willing to pay for that? 00:16:37.819 --> 00:16:39.799 Like I actually go out and talk to their target audience and 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:40.599 I'm like, would you buy this? 00:16:41.684 --> 00:16:42.664 I don't say, would you buy this? 00:16:42.674 --> 00:16:43.814 Cause that's a horrible question. 00:16:44.104 --> 00:16:46.724 You want to ask the question, you want to ask the question of, 00:16:46.734 --> 00:16:48.744 is there value in this for you? 00:16:48.774 --> 00:16:51.164 And if there is, how do you envision using it? 00:16:51.164 --> 00:16:51.504 Right. 00:16:51.824 --> 00:16:54.624 And then from there, there's the followup question of, okay, Hey, 00:16:54.624 --> 00:16:56.164 yeah, let's dive into actual pricing. 00:16:56.164 --> 00:16:57.034 What are you willing to pay? 00:16:57.374 --> 00:16:59.114 And I think that oftentimes WordPress. 00:17:00.969 --> 00:17:02.059 Generally, right. 00:17:02.059 --> 00:17:04.439 We'll just go with, Hey, here's what my peers are doing. 00:17:04.449 --> 00:17:07.609 But at the end of the day, WordPress is like, was it 43, 44? 00:17:07.639 --> 00:17:11.329 I can't remember the exact percentage now that WordPress is, is hosting of the web. 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:14.839 Imagine that like huge, big brands. 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:18.359 I mean, we've got Coke, we've got Disney, we've got just huge brands, right? 00:17:18.629 --> 00:17:19.314 They're not. 00:17:19.404 --> 00:17:23.364 Carrying about a 47 plugin, they need the functionality that they need. 00:17:23.664 --> 00:17:27.064 Now I can't necessarily speak to Disney and exactly what plugins they need and 00:17:27.064 --> 00:17:29.254 how they build their infrastructure and how they care about that. 00:17:29.294 --> 00:17:32.754 There's lots of great people that I know have been on your show that can, but when 00:17:32.754 --> 00:17:35.854 you think about it from that space, I think what happens in WordPress is they 00:17:35.854 --> 00:17:39.174 just get so stuck in, this is the way. 00:17:39.649 --> 00:17:43.269 This is the way this is how we price and we're always going to do a Black Friday 00:17:43.269 --> 00:17:47.849 sale, which also I just laugh about because like why Black Friday really like 00:17:47.879 --> 00:17:49.449 devs are spending money all the time. 00:17:49.449 --> 00:17:52.519 Like I just, the Black Friday thing just makes me chuckle because 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:54.689 it is such a a constant thing. 00:17:54.689 --> 00:17:56.969 But at the end of the day, like I'm not thinking about buying 00:17:56.969 --> 00:17:58.319 a tool on black Friday, right? 00:17:58.349 --> 00:18:00.599 I'm thinking about buying a tool when I'm in the pain point. 00:18:00.619 --> 00:18:04.009 I have that problem and I need a resolution and I'm not saving 00:18:04.009 --> 00:18:05.459 that pain point for black Friday. 00:18:05.829 --> 00:18:09.419 So it's, it's, it's interesting to me that, you know, some of the trends and 00:18:09.419 --> 00:18:12.429 things that we see in some of these open source communities versus what 00:18:12.429 --> 00:18:14.179 we see in big, in big tech, right? 00:18:14.349 --> 00:18:16.789 I could go on for a long time on this, but. 00:18:17.934 --> 00:18:20.774 Matt: when I, when you, when we first DM each other on Twitter, which was 00:18:20.834 --> 00:18:24.164 a nearing about a month ago, before setting up this call, you mentioned that 00:18:24.164 --> 00:18:28.294 you could share some challenges without name dropping, any particular clients. 00:18:28.444 --> 00:18:33.884 Are there particular challenges in 2024 that you're seeing across the board, from. 00:18:34.099 --> 00:18:36.309 The brands that you're working with or customers you have 00:18:36.309 --> 00:18:37.849 worked with outside of WordPress. 00:18:38.069 --> 00:18:41.379 We just talked about like some of the challenges that WordPress has, but what 00:18:41.379 --> 00:18:44.709 are the challenges in your space that clients might be running into for you? 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:45.689 Tessa: Yeah. 00:18:45.769 --> 00:18:46.719 Oh, that's a good question. 00:18:46.719 --> 00:18:49.639 So I have a couple of things, AI being one of them. 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:51.159 Let's come, well, let's come back to that. 00:18:51.169 --> 00:18:52.109 Cause I know that's kind of a 00:18:52.299 --> 00:18:55.619 Matt: I like to leave that to the end because I know the listener wants that. 00:18:55.959 --> 00:18:56.349 so 00:18:56.589 --> 00:18:57.239 Tessa: they want it. 00:18:57.249 --> 00:18:58.199 Let's make them wait for it. 00:18:58.209 --> 00:18:58.499 Okay. 00:18:58.499 --> 00:18:59.829 So let's talk about that. 00:19:00.199 --> 00:19:02.989 I think one of the biggest things that I'm seeing from. 00:19:03.614 --> 00:19:05.914 Is around sort of our economic times, right? 00:19:05.914 --> 00:19:10.314 Like we are seeing a very strict tightening of budgets in big tech, 00:19:10.334 --> 00:19:13.384 where those budgets used to be a little bit more loose, a little bit more. 00:19:13.384 --> 00:19:14.354 Yeah, it's fine. 00:19:14.364 --> 00:19:17.054 Go take people to dinner where now it's like, who did you take to dinner? 00:19:17.054 --> 00:19:17.974 How much did that cost you? 00:19:17.974 --> 00:19:18.654 Where did you go? 00:19:18.664 --> 00:19:19.894 Did you stay within budget? 00:19:20.104 --> 00:19:21.164 Where's the receipts? 00:19:21.364 --> 00:19:23.744 What was the value you got out of that conversation? 00:19:23.744 --> 00:19:23.954 Right. 00:19:23.974 --> 00:19:26.444 And, and years ago, we didn't see that as much. 00:19:26.474 --> 00:19:28.104 I think we, we still saw it. 00:19:28.114 --> 00:19:30.724 There's always been a scenario where people are, you know, shifting 00:19:30.724 --> 00:19:31.804 and hustling and whatever, but. 00:19:31.854 --> 00:19:35.784 and so with that, what I've actually learned is VC change. 00:19:35.794 --> 00:19:40.104 So a lot of venture capital trending and a lot of different investment trends. 00:19:40.474 --> 00:19:45.004 previously you could show traction, Hey, I've got users, I've got users. 00:19:45.004 --> 00:19:50.144 I'm retaining users that haven't churned users who are continuing to find value. 00:19:50.414 --> 00:19:53.664 and maybe they weren't always a paid user where now those VCs 00:19:53.664 --> 00:19:54.854 are like, what's the revenue. 00:19:55.129 --> 00:19:56.309 And it isn't about adoption. 00:19:56.309 --> 00:19:57.219 It's about revenue. 00:19:57.229 --> 00:19:59.189 We want to see adoption plus revenue. 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:01.729 and I think coming back to the conversation we just had around 00:20:01.729 --> 00:20:03.239 pricing, right, that's everything. 00:20:03.269 --> 00:20:07.089 If you're, if you're in a space where you're looking to get funded, I know 00:20:07.089 --> 00:20:12.049 WordPress and VC funding are not always, you know, in a combination together, but 00:20:12.049 --> 00:20:13.499 should someone be thinking about that? 00:20:13.509 --> 00:20:16.599 That's definitely those trends now of like, we used to be able to just prove 00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:20.399 adoption and now we need actual, they want to see those dollar bills, y'all. 00:20:20.809 --> 00:20:21.159 Matt: Yeah. 00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:21.769 Yeah. 00:20:21.769 --> 00:20:25.959 I, I feel the same way about, Yeah, you know, it's, there's so many correlations 00:20:25.959 --> 00:20:30.359 between like what I see trending in, let's say content marketing again, 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:33.619 because of like AI and just like attention and just so much stuff happening. 00:20:34.059 --> 00:20:37.479 So many people from years ago, were like, Oh great. 00:20:37.479 --> 00:20:41.549 I have, you know, whatever the number is, I 10, 000, you know, downloads or 10, 000 00:20:41.549 --> 00:20:43.849 views, whatever it is, 10, 000 page views. 00:20:44.189 --> 00:20:47.329 And I would say that these days you probably see half, 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:49.119 if not less than half of that. 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.479 And now you're focused on do these people actually want to. 00:20:52.634 --> 00:20:53.604 Read this stuff. 00:20:53.674 --> 00:20:55.954 Do they really want to engage with my content? 00:20:56.244 --> 00:20:59.984 And that's like the obvious thing we should have all been wanting from the 00:20:59.984 --> 00:21:05.634 beginning, but we got so caught up in like the vanity metrics and whether that's 00:21:05.634 --> 00:21:08.824 like on that money side, the money line, like you just talked about, like we just 00:21:08.824 --> 00:21:11.074 raised 50 million and it's like, great. 00:21:11.184 --> 00:21:12.284 Are you profitable? 00:21:12.409 --> 00:21:12.759 Tessa: Mm 00:21:12.934 --> 00:21:14.444 Matt: How are you going to pay that back? 00:21:14.484 --> 00:21:17.234 And then same thing with like when you have like this content, it's like, 00:21:17.234 --> 00:21:21.284 Oh, my content went viral and I got a million views on this tick talk video. 00:21:21.284 --> 00:21:22.234 It's like, well, great. 00:21:22.244 --> 00:21:25.414 Did are you engaged with that audience member or did that 00:21:25.414 --> 00:21:27.124 piece of content just fly by? 00:21:27.134 --> 00:21:30.744 And it's It's like, it's whatever now, it's just like, it doesn't even matter. 00:21:30.934 --> 00:21:33.574 You'll never get that person to buy or engage with your, 00:21:33.804 --> 00:21:34.794 you know, with your product. 00:21:34.794 --> 00:21:38.804 And there was such a push for like, help me create viral content, 00:21:38.974 --> 00:21:41.024 help me raise all this money. 00:21:41.334 --> 00:21:43.894 And you know, a lot of us on the sidelines who weren't doing that, we're 00:21:43.894 --> 00:21:45.204 going like, wait, is this the right way? 00:21:45.694 --> 00:21:45.984 Are we, 00:21:46.819 --> 00:21:47.289 Tessa: Yep. 00:21:47.404 --> 00:21:48.514 Matt: what are we building with this? 00:21:48.514 --> 00:21:50.954 Like what, what are you expecting out of this? 00:21:50.954 --> 00:21:53.774 And it's, it's, I don't want to say it's funny to see that 00:21:53.774 --> 00:21:55.314 getting caught up now or. 00:21:56.009 --> 00:21:59.789 Or that catching up to that now, but it's just like yeah, sometimes when 00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:02.159 you see all this stuff And you're wondering is this a false floor. 00:22:02.159 --> 00:22:03.349 It's probably a false floor 00:22:04.044 --> 00:22:05.344 Tessa: Absolutely. 00:22:05.434 --> 00:22:06.674 I cannot echo that enough. 00:22:06.674 --> 00:22:09.374 That actually speaks to exactly what I was referring to in terms of 00:22:09.374 --> 00:22:11.134 like the dev rel of the 2020, right? 00:22:11.134 --> 00:22:12.254 They were great. 00:22:12.264 --> 00:22:13.194 They were getting views. 00:22:13.194 --> 00:22:14.654 They were getting subscribers. 00:22:14.654 --> 00:22:16.264 They were coming in, watching the live streams. 00:22:16.264 --> 00:22:17.314 They were reading the content. 00:22:17.324 --> 00:22:20.534 They were previous to COVID hanging at the events that existed. 00:22:20.944 --> 00:22:23.515 But, GitHub stars were like a huge metric. 00:22:23.545 --> 00:22:24.535 Oh, do you have GitHub stars? 00:22:24.725 --> 00:22:26.235 What the heck does that even tell you? 00:22:26.245 --> 00:22:28.495 GitHub stars tells you nothing that someone was like, I 00:22:28.505 --> 00:22:30.055 might build with this one day. 00:22:30.610 --> 00:22:31.560 It doesn't mean anything. 00:22:31.570 --> 00:22:31.880 Right. 00:22:31.900 --> 00:22:35.230 And now it's like, what does that actually mean, which speaks into or 00:22:35.230 --> 00:22:37.360 sort of leans into had three trends. 00:22:37.370 --> 00:22:39.220 One was VCs and they want revenue. 00:22:39.250 --> 00:22:41.180 The second one is what I'm going to dive into here and 00:22:41.180 --> 00:22:42.040 then we'll get to the AI one. 00:22:42.040 --> 00:22:44.950 But the second trend, Is around truth, right? 00:22:44.950 --> 00:22:47.820 And I think this is more than anything we can all relate to 00:22:47.820 --> 00:22:49.110 this, especially with the election. 00:22:49.120 --> 00:22:52.210 Everything we have going on is there's no trust anymore. 00:22:52.220 --> 00:22:54.670 And so the sort of, Oh, okay, cool. 00:22:54.670 --> 00:22:56.310 I'm going to trust what you do is gone. 00:22:56.630 --> 00:22:58.600 And it's more of like, I don't believe you. 00:22:58.630 --> 00:23:01.580 And so when, when an immediate reaction for someone is, I don't 00:23:01.580 --> 00:23:03.390 believe you and I need to validate. 00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:05.120 And it's not that they're like, Oh, I see you. 00:23:05.120 --> 00:23:06.020 And I think you're a liar. 00:23:06.020 --> 00:23:09.535 It's just more like the initial sort of, Trust that we had 00:23:09.535 --> 00:23:11.415 inside of us as has dissipated. 00:23:11.415 --> 00:23:13.125 And now we want to question everything. 00:23:13.545 --> 00:23:15.895 and I think that makes business really, really hard, right? 00:23:15.895 --> 00:23:18.475 What used to be a little bit easier, there was an inclination. 00:23:18.475 --> 00:23:21.695 There was sort of a, a curiosity, right? 00:23:21.995 --> 00:23:23.925 And that curiosity would take you down a path. 00:23:23.925 --> 00:23:27.075 And now that curiosity needs to be pretty validated and actually pretty 00:23:27.075 --> 00:23:30.705 warranted for someone to come in and actually want to do business with you. 00:23:30.975 --> 00:23:34.185 which gosh, we could really dig out a whole bag of worms. 00:23:34.185 --> 00:23:36.315 And you start talking about trust in this regard. 00:23:37.030 --> 00:23:38.380 Matt: Yeah, I grew up in car sales. 00:23:38.390 --> 00:23:41.180 So, like, listen, I've been on both sides. 00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:42.680 So I totally get it. 00:23:42.910 --> 00:23:46.570 Like I totally like get it when people just don't trust you as 00:23:46.570 --> 00:23:49.560 like that front person and they're just like, nope, just here. 00:23:49.600 --> 00:23:50.300 Give me the best deal. 00:23:50.310 --> 00:23:50.910 I got to leave. 00:23:50.985 --> 00:23:53.565 Like there's, there's nothing that fortifies you for running 00:23:53.565 --> 00:23:54.535 your own small business. 00:23:54.535 --> 00:23:58.155 Then like selling cars in New England, in the, you know, dead of 00:23:58.155 --> 00:23:59.745 winter, nobody wants to talk to you. 00:23:59.805 --> 00:24:02.725 Nobody wants to be outside looking at this car and they just are 00:24:02.785 --> 00:24:04.805 at odds with you immediately. 00:24:05.135 --> 00:24:09.125 Like the chances are just so slim, you know, to, to land a deal. 00:24:09.355 --> 00:24:10.965 and you're like, no, like you can trust me. 00:24:11.815 --> 00:24:12.615 I'm trying to do this. 00:24:12.635 --> 00:24:13.825 I'm trying to do right. 00:24:13.825 --> 00:24:15.215 We're not like this high pressure car sale. 00:24:15.215 --> 00:24:17.385 I want to get into car sale, but it's like not a high pressure car sales, 00:24:17.385 --> 00:24:19.155 family owned and all this other stuff. 00:24:19.385 --> 00:24:22.355 And they're just like immediately coming to war with you. 00:24:22.765 --> 00:24:26.065 And this is, this was me in car sales, like literally 25 years ago. 00:24:26.115 --> 00:24:28.115 That's, you know, how long it's been. 00:24:28.135 --> 00:24:31.875 And, it's still, you know, the same, you still see that stuff, you 00:24:31.875 --> 00:24:33.585 know, you know, happening today. 00:24:33.585 --> 00:24:34.845 It is, it is crazy. 00:24:35.205 --> 00:24:36.145 but trust is massive, 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:37.950 Tessa: that's a perfect analogy. 00:24:37.950 --> 00:24:42.890 Honestly, the world is more like a car sales transaction than, than it has ever 00:24:42.955 --> 00:24:48.555 Matt: Ever been right, right, right and and like listen, I and also I like I am 00:24:48.755 --> 00:24:50.485 as somebody who grew up in that space 00:24:53.045 --> 00:24:55.925 You know, it's it oftentimes, you know, you're dealing with let's say 00:24:55.945 --> 00:25:01.490 contractors or other small businesses and You know, you're just like, I don't 00:25:01.490 --> 00:25:04.310 know, dealing with like, I'm dealing with a plumber a few months ago. 00:25:04.420 --> 00:25:08.260 And it's just like, half of me wants to be like, where the hell are you, man? 00:25:08.570 --> 00:25:09.410 Get here. 00:25:09.470 --> 00:25:10.660 Fix my problem. 00:25:10.790 --> 00:25:12.100 Why did you charge me this money? 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:15.360 Why did you show up and say you could do this if you can't do this job? 00:25:15.580 --> 00:25:15.840 Right? 00:25:15.870 --> 00:25:18.360 But then the other half of me is like, I get it. 00:25:18.600 --> 00:25:21.330 Like I get why you're stressed because you're a small business and you got a 00:25:21.330 --> 00:25:24.990 gazillion things going on and you're just one person You know, and i'm always 00:25:24.990 --> 00:25:30.050 like at odds of like where I draw that line you know when i'm dealing with 00:25:30.070 --> 00:25:33.529 people and it's Yeah, I really think like one day if I ever write a book it's 00:25:33.529 --> 00:25:37.395 going to be like why everyone should be a car salesperson You know step 00:25:37.395 --> 00:25:42.210 one be a car salesman first to really learn what it's like to go through the 00:25:42.220 --> 00:25:48.075 throes of you know, one on one human interaction in a non critical sale sales 00:25:48.075 --> 00:25:51.715 environment, like non critical meaning like this isn't life threatening thing. 00:25:51.904 --> 00:25:52.825 You have choices. 00:25:53.145 --> 00:25:55.864 you know, and, and yeah, there's a lot to lots to be learned there. 00:25:55.865 --> 00:26:00.065 And I could get on that car sales soapbox for forever too, as well. 00:26:00.065 --> 00:26:05.325 But trust also sort of goes into this like whole AI thing, which I'm sure in 00:26:05.335 --> 00:26:10.930 your world is, you know, Disrupting it at an even faster pace than maybe even 00:26:10.930 --> 00:26:15.090 WordPress with just like so many people onboarding and starting a bit I've seen 00:26:15.100 --> 00:26:17.260 so many AI businesses doing things. 00:26:17.260 --> 00:26:21.020 I'm just like wow, there's you're doing that, too But I also have to remember 00:26:21.070 --> 00:26:22.300 is that a false floor over there? 00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:25.590 So, how do you transition into AI with with all of this stuff? 00:26:25.940 --> 00:26:26.550 Tessa: Yeah. 00:26:26.610 --> 00:26:27.720 Ooh, I love that. 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:28.540 Is there a false floor? 00:26:28.550 --> 00:26:30.770 There is a little bit of a false floor, I think still. 00:26:31.280 --> 00:26:35.240 and I think, you know, in terms of kind of back to the VC conversation, I would 00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:39.730 say of, of the trends there, like most of the folks that are getting investment 00:26:39.730 --> 00:26:43.960 funds are, there's some capacity of like an AI you're either serving an AI use 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:46.140 case or your tool is actually, you know. 00:26:46.405 --> 00:26:49.615 Powered by artificial intelligence in some way, shape, or form. 00:26:49.935 --> 00:26:52.855 I would say about 50 percent of my clientele falls into that bucket 00:26:52.865 --> 00:26:55.985 too, where they're building something in that AI ecosystem or space. 00:26:56.435 --> 00:26:59.555 I think what's interesting about sort of the trends and what I think is funny. 00:26:59.565 --> 00:27:03.775 So before I jumped on this call, total developer thing where I was like, and 00:27:03.785 --> 00:27:07.284 you can relate to this, like, you know, referring to sort of maybe not being 00:27:07.285 --> 00:27:10.904 fully technical chops, but still like you have that ambition and desire to 00:27:10.905 --> 00:27:12.314 like build things and create things. 00:27:12.714 --> 00:27:15.725 I was using Bolt, which I don't know if you've heard of Bolt, but there's like. 00:27:15.925 --> 00:27:16.345 Matt: Love it. 00:27:16.345 --> 00:27:17.165 Use it all the time 00:27:17.245 --> 00:27:17.775 Tessa: Do you? 00:27:17.785 --> 00:27:18.085 Okay. 00:27:18.085 --> 00:27:18.295 So, 00:27:18.325 --> 00:27:18.845 Matt: all the time 00:27:19.785 --> 00:27:20.075 Tessa: okay. 00:27:20.075 --> 00:27:21.595 Like I have used it a couple of times. 00:27:21.625 --> 00:27:22.795 I built something for my husband. 00:27:22.795 --> 00:27:27.025 Cause he does, so he does AI, but he does cattle artificial insemination. 00:27:27.025 --> 00:27:31.075 So we joke about how he's in agriculture and I'm in AI technology. 00:27:31.335 --> 00:27:33.645 but I built him a tool that's like a timing calculator, right? 00:27:33.645 --> 00:27:34.905 10 minutes, boom, done. 00:27:35.145 --> 00:27:36.259 All it did was say. 00:27:36.350 --> 00:27:37.990 His protocols are very timed, right? 00:27:37.990 --> 00:27:39.360 So one thing has to be done exactly. 00:27:39.370 --> 00:27:40.790 Set number of hours after another. 00:27:41.040 --> 00:27:42.680 It was hard to communicate that to clients. 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:44.650 So we're like pop the first time in and you'll see what the 00:27:44.650 --> 00:27:45.620 rest of the times look like. 00:27:46.010 --> 00:27:46.540 Super great. 00:27:46.540 --> 00:27:46.750 Right. 00:27:46.790 --> 00:27:47.450 Really easy. 00:27:47.450 --> 00:27:48.830 And I'm like, that seems simple. 00:27:48.860 --> 00:27:50.970 And then I'm like, okay, let me see if bolt can do something 00:27:50.980 --> 00:27:52.580 bigger and bolder than this. 00:27:52.870 --> 00:27:55.939 So before we got on this recording, I was actually in there and I was. 00:27:55.940 --> 00:27:59.080 building out, what I do a lot of times is like, I do a lot of 00:27:59.080 --> 00:28:00.560 channel listening for my clients. 00:28:00.560 --> 00:28:03.270 And so what that means is that there, there's a pain point that 00:28:03.270 --> 00:28:06.180 their product solves, and I'm listening for those conversations 00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:07.360 that include that pain point. 00:28:07.360 --> 00:28:10.390 So I can say, Hey client, you should go engage in this conversation. 00:28:10.390 --> 00:28:13.040 And so I wanted to build out essentially this channel discovery. 00:28:13.380 --> 00:28:17.780 I was like blown away at like it bringing in Reddit APIs 00:28:17.780 --> 00:28:18.920 and some of this other stuff. 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:23.649 And, you know, outside of my own curiosity and things, it's very interesting to see. 00:28:24.040 --> 00:28:28.380 and understand sort of technologically what we can start to sort of 00:28:28.420 --> 00:28:29.920 cut out and what we can't. 00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:34.380 And I think that The trends that I'm seeing in AI is that there is a lot of, 00:28:34.890 --> 00:28:38.710 you know, there's a lot of companies and leaders and, you know, the boards, the 00:28:38.710 --> 00:28:42.500 VCs, the investors, the ones pushing for the big decisions who are like cut, cut 00:28:42.500 --> 00:28:47.370 at all costs, cut people, use AI, but at the end of the day, what I'm realizing 00:28:47.370 --> 00:28:49.479 is that if you don't have sort of the. 00:28:49.830 --> 00:28:55.650 Capabilities to validate and verify AI and what it's doing, that it is not something 00:28:55.650 --> 00:28:58.010 that you can use as a cutting out source. 00:28:58.030 --> 00:28:59.310 It's more of a supplement. 00:28:59.620 --> 00:29:02.620 So for me, it's made my role a lot more efficient. 00:29:02.650 --> 00:29:04.780 And I think for other companies, they're seeing the same. 00:29:04.790 --> 00:29:08.720 Yes, they can use AI in a developer workflow to start to build 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:10.660 things with different AI tools. 00:29:10.970 --> 00:29:14.710 But a developer that knows what they're doing still has to validate and verify and 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:16.740 be involved in that process to understand. 00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:21.460 So I think that, you know, your listeners likely, are in this space of like. 00:29:21.865 --> 00:29:23.625 Oh my gosh, what should I be investing in? 00:29:23.625 --> 00:29:24.845 What should I be spending time in? 00:29:24.855 --> 00:29:26.145 How should I be leveraging it? 00:29:26.415 --> 00:29:29.695 you know, and if I can share any insights there, I think there's so many different 00:29:29.705 --> 00:29:33.055 tools and I think just taking a step back and saying, Hey, what do I do in my day 00:29:33.055 --> 00:29:37.615 to day workflow that I can potentially bring into some other solution, whether 00:29:37.615 --> 00:29:40.015 it be content, writing, ideation. 00:29:40.170 --> 00:29:42.270 Writing emails, et cetera. 00:29:42.320 --> 00:29:46.000 but in terms of, you know, it cutting out our jobs, I think we're, I think we're 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:49.800 years from that, but I do think that we are definitely seeing an evolution of 00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:53.290 growth where we can, we can definitely do some pretty cool things really 00:29:53.510 --> 00:29:56.530 Matt: yeah, I noticed you didn't say we're decades away. 00:29:56.530 --> 00:29:57.250 You said years. 00:29:57.260 --> 00:29:57.470 So, 00:29:57.580 --> 00:29:58.670 Tessa: not decades or years. 00:29:58.710 --> 00:29:58.890 Yeah. 00:29:58.890 --> 00:29:59.110 Yeah. 00:29:59.110 --> 00:30:00.600 I'm going to say less than five 00:30:00.970 --> 00:30:05.400 Matt: Yeah, I'll say that is, yeah, less than five, the, the, the long would be 10. 00:30:05.410 --> 00:30:11.210 But, yeah, certainly two things that, that actually Bolt has really exposed me to, 00:30:11.259 --> 00:30:14.879 I, you know, went down this path of, you know, learning how to code outside of AI. 00:30:14.909 --> 00:30:18.969 I think it's important, again, for my role at, at Gravity Forms to understand 00:30:18.969 --> 00:30:23.079 like what people are doing, and how it's going to impact Gravity Forms, right? 00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:25.049 I mean, can you make a form plugin with AI? 00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:29.939 Yes, is it going to have the same attention and scale 00:30:29.939 --> 00:30:31.149 that Gravity Forms has now? 00:30:31.199 --> 00:30:36.499 No, because the same appreciation that I've uncovered for WordPress actually 00:30:36.729 --> 00:30:40.269 building out my own standalone React apps through Bolt and Cursor and, you 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:44.529 know, use Bolt as like the front end ideation and then Cursor to implement the 00:30:44.529 --> 00:30:47.859 more like strategic parts of it is what I've been doing the last month or so. 00:30:48.159 --> 00:30:51.009 you know, yeah, you can build these standalone things, but that's it. 00:30:51.544 --> 00:30:55.324 Like you're the you're the human responsible for it now you created 00:30:55.324 --> 00:30:58.274 it and if you don't know what the hell you're doing You're not 00:30:58.274 --> 00:31:02.304 gonna be able to think about what comes next in that passing moment. 00:31:02.334 --> 00:31:04.284 You've made something awesome, right? 00:31:04.334 --> 00:31:06.624 But with WordPress, you know, you would look at it and go. 00:31:06.664 --> 00:31:07.764 Oh, this thing is 20 years old. 00:31:07.764 --> 00:31:09.724 This is monolithic app It's you know, it's old. 00:31:09.724 --> 00:31:10.464 It's lethargic. 00:31:10.674 --> 00:31:16.094 Okay, totally agree But it's like 10, 000 people plus have it touched this this 00:31:16.454 --> 00:31:21.144 This app that is running and sustaining and people are still caring about it. 00:31:21.384 --> 00:31:24.734 Your little app that you made, sure you made a wordpress with chat 00:31:24.734 --> 00:31:26.494 GPT, but it ain't going anywhere. 00:31:27.214 --> 00:31:27.474 Right? 00:31:27.474 --> 00:31:29.444 And, and it's just that, like it's done. 00:31:29.704 --> 00:31:32.174 And, you know, you're not going to sustain it. 00:31:32.174 --> 00:31:33.144 Now, eventually. 00:31:33.674 --> 00:31:38.734 I'm sure, you know, these platforms will say turn on the sustainability, 00:31:38.884 --> 00:31:43.404 module and it will continue to think and evolve it for you, which is, is 00:31:43.404 --> 00:31:45.224 the scary part in an amazing part. 00:31:45.224 --> 00:31:48.484 But, you know, until then, it's like you still need that human interaction for 00:31:48.484 --> 00:31:52.884 these critical parts that, you know, the, the human brain needs to, to interact with 00:31:52.894 --> 00:31:57.199 because, as powerful as it is, it's, It's, it's just not going anywhere further than 00:31:57.209 --> 00:32:01.399 where your prompt left it, I guess, if you're the uninitiated, that was a long 00:32:01.399 --> 00:32:03.709 rant, but what I wanted to get to was. 00:32:04.219 --> 00:32:08.099 What this also has exposed to me is what I saw early on in, in the WordPress 00:32:08.109 --> 00:32:11.559 world, which is like, now I'm learning about all these frameworks, right? 00:32:11.569 --> 00:32:15.589 Next, JS, you know, React, like all this other stuff and all these little pockets 00:32:15.589 --> 00:32:18.549 of communities that exists, just like we see in WordPress, but they're like 00:32:18.569 --> 00:32:21.970 tiny little thousands of tiny little pockets of communities that exists 00:32:21.979 --> 00:32:24.089 for all this other real world coding. 00:32:24.669 --> 00:32:28.159 And what this AI thing has done is the same thing page builders has done to 00:32:28.159 --> 00:32:29.899 WordPress because now I'm seeing it. 00:32:30.269 --> 00:32:32.879 On the outside, where people going, Well, if you don't understand 00:32:32.879 --> 00:32:35.759 how to use this stuff, You shouldn't be coding in AI, right? 00:32:35.789 --> 00:32:38.959 Which is the same thing I heard like 15 years ago, When people were like, 00:32:39.009 --> 00:32:41.509 if you're using a page builder, You don't know how to build a website, 00:32:41.509 --> 00:32:42.549 you shouldn't be doing this. 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:44.129 And I'm like, where have I heard this before? 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:46.229 Oh wait, I said that, 15 years ago. 00:32:46.999 --> 00:32:49.979 To somebody who came in with like, Beaver Builder, or page, well back 00:32:49.979 --> 00:32:53.329 then, It was like page lines, or thesis theme, And you're like, you didn't 00:32:53.329 --> 00:32:56.189 do this right, All you did was buy this on ThemeForest, and launch it. 00:32:56.549 --> 00:32:59.599 You know, until I got educated obviously and understood like how people learn 00:32:59.649 --> 00:33:02.779 and now people are learning like this with this kind of technology 00:33:03.639 --> 00:33:07.849 It's just interesting to see how humans react to maybe not gatekeeping 00:33:07.859 --> 00:33:11.419 But they're like I've put 10 years of sweat equity into this and now 00:33:11.419 --> 00:33:15.769 you just showed up and launched a react app with bolt That's not fair. 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:16.539 Right? 00:33:16.609 --> 00:33:20.149 No real question there, but I don't know if you have like a Comment 00:33:20.149 --> 00:33:21.639 on where that world is heading 00:33:21.944 --> 00:33:22.474 Tessa: Oh gosh. 00:33:22.474 --> 00:33:26.564 I, I very much do because actually what, where you were all, what 00:33:26.564 --> 00:33:29.564 you were sharing was like, Oh yeah, it's all back to that trust. 00:33:29.564 --> 00:33:29.894 Right. 00:33:30.254 --> 00:33:32.184 It's like, absolutely we can use AI. 00:33:32.194 --> 00:33:35.074 And I, I laughed because, because I understand what you're saying 00:33:35.074 --> 00:33:37.734 of like, Oh, page builders, you don't know what you're doing. 00:33:37.754 --> 00:33:37.974 Right. 00:33:38.024 --> 00:33:41.374 Because we all sort of like, we get into this space where when someone 00:33:41.374 --> 00:33:43.144 comes in and they can do something. 00:33:43.529 --> 00:33:44.749 Better and quicker. 00:33:44.749 --> 00:33:47.269 It's like, wait a minute, should we trust that? 00:33:47.289 --> 00:33:49.359 And then that all comes back to that trust, right? 00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:51.489 Is it's like, yes, we're all going to grow. 00:33:51.489 --> 00:33:53.499 We're all going to evolve and things are going to change. 00:33:53.529 --> 00:33:55.219 And there's all these other use cases. 00:33:55.219 --> 00:33:58.499 And I think that we forget that like, we're one, we're like a one person and 00:33:58.499 --> 00:34:01.639 we're using something in the way that we're using it, but we don't think 00:34:01.650 --> 00:34:05.169 about, Oh, people who can't, you know, build something or people who don't 00:34:05.209 --> 00:34:08.339 understand how to, how to build a WordPress site without a page builder or 00:34:08.339 --> 00:34:10.099 how to build an app without AI, right? 00:34:10.764 --> 00:34:15.144 But I think what, you know, what I think you brought a really good point to is 00:34:15.144 --> 00:34:18.104 like, you can build all these things, but just because you build it, it 00:34:18.104 --> 00:34:19.814 doesn't mean they're going to come right. 00:34:19.824 --> 00:34:23.914 And so I think that that's the point of all of this, of we can create these 00:34:23.914 --> 00:34:25.414 really great things and it's awesome. 00:34:25.414 --> 00:34:28.154 But at the day, we still have to be humans that can build a business. 00:34:28.524 --> 00:34:29.864 We still have to understand the use case. 00:34:29.864 --> 00:34:31.324 We still have to understand our target audience. 00:34:31.324 --> 00:34:34.164 We still have to know who's willing to pay for that tool, what they're 00:34:34.164 --> 00:34:36.984 willing to pay for it, we still have to show up and do the marketing. 00:34:36.984 --> 00:34:39.974 And yes, we can hire AI to write our content, but that's 00:34:39.974 --> 00:34:41.164 not how marketing works, right? 00:34:41.164 --> 00:34:43.174 It's all these different things that go into it. 00:34:43.174 --> 00:34:46.844 And so when we build these things and they are new and they are early, 00:34:46.844 --> 00:34:49.574 there's a lack of trust coming back to that other trend, right? 00:34:49.574 --> 00:34:52.984 And I think that when we do start to build these things, that's, that's 00:34:52.984 --> 00:34:54.244 essentially where I feel like. 00:34:54.364 --> 00:34:57.994 Both politics and AI have created this lack of trust, right? 00:34:57.994 --> 00:35:02.654 Of can we actually create things with AI that has a person behind it that is 00:35:02.654 --> 00:35:04.994 trustworthy, and utilize it in that way. 00:35:04.994 --> 00:35:07.744 So I think that's my commentary there is like through all of that, it's 00:35:07.744 --> 00:35:08.984 all, it's all been trust, right? 00:35:08.994 --> 00:35:10.394 How should we trust this? 00:35:10.844 --> 00:35:11.564 Hmm. 00:35:11.564 --> 00:35:15.344 I question this, but what is it that we can do to bring a lot of trust to 00:35:15.384 --> 00:35:16.554 what we're, what we're doing with AI? 00:35:17.709 --> 00:35:21.219 Matt: I like to blame the bad car salesperson before, that started all 00:35:21.219 --> 00:35:23.259 of this stuff before AI and politics. 00:35:23.749 --> 00:35:25.999 Tessa Creasel, built4. 00:35:26.019 --> 00:35:27.499 dev, you can go to built4. 00:35:27.499 --> 00:35:31.689 dev, if you want to connect with, her services. 00:35:31.759 --> 00:35:35.009 Anywhere else you want folks to go to say thanks or to connect with you online? 00:35:35.804 --> 00:35:38.224 Tessa: I'm pretty much everywhere across all the socials. 00:35:38.224 --> 00:35:41.324 So if you're on LinkedIn, blue sky, Twitter X, whatever the heck you're 00:35:41.324 --> 00:35:45.384 on, I'm Tessa K 22 and most of those, but happy to engage in chat. 00:35:45.404 --> 00:35:48.634 I'm a very friendly and personable person. 00:35:48.694 --> 00:35:50.274 so reach out wherever you're hanging out. 00:35:51.049 --> 00:35:52.469 Matt: Fantastic stuff, thewpminute. 00:35:52.469 --> 00:35:53.779 com, thewpminute. 00:35:53.779 --> 00:35:57.929 com, slash subscribe to stay connected, and we'll see you in the next episode.