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Good morning, Grid Connections listeners.

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This week we have our favorite panel of returning guests, John McElroy from Auto Line
Network, Matt Teske of Chargeway and Loren McDonald of EV Adoption.

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In this episode, we discuss the past quarter's EV sales, along with examining the trends
and challenges facing the larger automotive industry.

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EVs might not be the only ones having some issues with sales, it turns out.

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Our panel discusses the pros and cons of plug -in hybrids versus fully electric vehicles
as

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offering insights that every electric vehicle enthusiast will find valuable.

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We then turn our attention to the current state of electric vehicle charging, exploring
the realities of road tripping in an EV today.

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Additionally, we discussed the status of a Navi funding and its potential to significantly
enhance charging infrastructure across the United States.

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Don't miss this episode packed with expert opinions and thought provoking discussions.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with at least one other listener who you
think would appreciate it as

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And don't forget to leave a positive review on our podcast page.

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Your feedback helps us grow and bring you even more fantastic content.

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With that, enjoy.

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I'm joined today by our favorite panel.

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got Matt Teske of Chargeway, John McElroy of Auto Line Network.

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And we also have Mr.

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Lorne McDonald of EV Adoption.

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Thank you gentlemen for being back on the show today.

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Thanks.

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It's great to be back in such awesome company.

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Yeah, agreed.

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Same here.

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have said it better myself.

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I just real briefly.

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I think everyone's pretty familiar with all three of you now, but just in case I'm just
going to pick one of you on random, just looking at my screen.

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If each of you could just give a quick background, that'd be great.

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So Matt, why don't you kick it

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Definitely.

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Yeah.

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I'm Matt Teske.

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I'm the founder and CEO of Chargeway and Chargeway is a software and mobile app for
finding and locating EV charging stations and planning road trips.

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And we have a system that makes it super easy for everyone.

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So give the Chargeway app a download.

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Thank you so much, Matt.

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John, what about you next?

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Yeah, the president of Blue Sky Productions.

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We have a bunch of products that we put out under the Outerline brand, everything and
anything to do with the automotive industry.

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And finally, not least, Loren, why you take us home?

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Yeah.

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Hi, Loren McDonald, CEO of EV Adoption.

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We're a EV, EV charging data analysis firm.

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So we track everything from, you know, how many chargers are going into the ground to like
incentive programs, like the NEVI program that many people might be familiar with, utility

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incentives, EV sales.

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We do a lot of forecasts, things like that.

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So if it's EV or EV charging data, we're, we're probably tracking

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And I think we've got a few different topics that are always fan favorites to go over
today, ranging from just the current EV market to kind of EV charging in North America.

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But let's kind of kick it off with a focus on, I think not even just EV sales, but
automotive sales.

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John, I've been kind of watching some of the stuff you've been covering this week with a
lot of the North American automakers about how this past quarter Q2 went them went for

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them in 2024.

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And I think there's been such a strong narrative and maybe not

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Automotive news realm, but just the media in general that electric vehicles and all of
these things aren't doing well.

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But from what we're seeing from this past quarter, it might be the automotive industry in
general, has definitely kind of been struggling a little bit, this year.

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So I think it'd be great just to kind of get your take and thoughts on what you've seen
recently and we'll go from

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Sure thing.

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You know, everyone thought 2024 was going to be pretty good.

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They thought, OK, we got COVID behind us, the chip shortage behind us now, we're going to
go back to a quote unquote normal year.

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And it hasn't materialized.

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I think there's a couple of things going on.

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Number one, interest rates.

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Holy moly.

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know, car prices have been super high.

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They've moderated a little bit.

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But now with interest rates so high.

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People are having a hard time getting a loan or they don't want to pay the money.

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It's really expensive.

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Plus last month we had a cyber attack on this company called CDK that does DMS dealer
management systems and thousands and thousands and thousands of dealers all across the

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country use CDK software to run their business.

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Well, guess what?

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It crapped out.

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I mean, they literally went back to pen and paper in a lot of cases to try to process
sales.

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So, you know, the latest sales figures for June, for example, last month, a little bit
uncertain as to how things are going because we don't know how much CDK disrupted what was

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going on.

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But I will say this, Chase, even though overall sales are soft, the EV segments outperform
in the market.

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I mean, it's one of the few bright spots, although with the latest registration numbers,
doesn't look like

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Tesla is hauling the water anymore.

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It seems to be the legacy automakers that have picked up the pace here.

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Because in point of fact, we've seen Tesla sales go down.

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And so, are we at this poignant moment in the market where, here we've seen Tesla create
this segment.

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I mean, let's get real.

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But now it looks like the legacies are starting to make their weight felt.

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John, I have question for you on the CDK thing.

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Do you think there's going to be a delayed reporting?

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In other words, like might July and August actually be higher than they would have been
because of the delay in moving from the paper back to technology?

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I think there will be.

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fact, you know, on our Auto Line After Hours program yesterday, we had the new VP of Sales
from Honda on the show.

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And he was saying essentially that, Loren, that, you know, some people couldn't get the
car they wanted, so there's a little bit of pent up demand there, and other orders

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couldn't be processed.

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So it should look better.

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I would say on the sales side of it, I think the elephant in the room of it is with the
Tesla conversation is Tesla has, yeah, they're going to have to contend with how their CEO

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is having an impact on their brand image and people's interest in their products.

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It's rampant on, I I've had conversations with people, but you hear people chattering
about it on a lot of different social platforms about how people are flat out saying.

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I will not buy a Tesla because of Elon.

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And yeah.

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think about it.

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You know, his biggest market in the world is California.

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And he's been trashing the state saying, I'm moving Tesla.

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I already moved Tesla out.

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Now I'm going to get SpaceX out.

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I'm to move Neuralink out.

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The hell with that state, essentially.

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You know, it's the old city, know, feds to New York City drop dead.

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This is Tesla to California drop dead.

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And I think it's been foolish for him to take that kind of stance.

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I mean, as an individual, fine, but as the CEO of a car company, that's a big mistake.

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And the other thing I keep harping on, it's time for Tesla to update its styling.

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You know, the S and X have not changed in a decade, the three and the Y are five years old
or something.

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I know I get lots of blowback from the Tesla fans saying, you're ignoring over the air
updates, you're ignoring the Highland refresh on the Model 3 and blah, blah, blah, blah,

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blah, blah.

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I'm telling you the auto industry is a fashion industry.

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The companies with the freshest designs are the ones that make market share grow.

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And this is why, you know, big department stores and big cities change their window
displays every couple of months because otherwise you get used to it, you don't even

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notice

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Yeah, no, I think it's amazing the S and the X have had the length they've had in sales.

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mean, it's, they've done some gloss here and there.

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The interiors are refreshed a tad, but I think the Model 3 Highland as an example, I think
is what each of these Y, X and S all need the same type of genuine refresh.

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And so if they can do that on the Y, the X and the S as they did with the three, I think
it'll help.

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But it doesn't change the fact that I think that the S and the X, to your point, John,
mean, they are just dated products now and you can only squeeze the over -the -update

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benefit for so long before, your point, it is, again, automotive industry is, the
aesthetic there is so important to people.

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And if you feel like you're buying a product from 2012, you can only say so much about the
software before you're kind of like, yeah, but, you

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you know, I, I do agree with you on that, John.

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do have a question for you.

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Cause I feel like you're totally right.

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That the styling hasn't changed.

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think they're usually improvements, especially exterior stuff.

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Like we saw recently with the model three, but, you know what?

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It really reminds me of is like Porsche, like devout Porsche 911 buyers.

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Like I cannot tell the difference between one year from the next and suddenly say, you see
the light, the light head of the, they have this different type of led versus that led.

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And the average person has no idea.

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And it does seem

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Good or bad, there is a very similar mentality and following to a lot of the people who
buy into the Tesla thing.

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And do you think that that is, do you think that there is some element to that?

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Like almost kind of the mindset and just like they have that core group of followers that
have really followed that or do you really think at the scale that the three and why are

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it especially they need to be changing it more or is there some sort of other way that
they can kind of get that engagement without the exterior refresh?

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Like you're seeing with maybe high end day and some of the other, EV cars that from like
kind of the fashion styling that you're talking about have been seeing a lot of

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Yeah, look, when Tesla was the only game in town, so to speak, the only EV game in town,
it could do whatever it wants.

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But now it's facing some pretty tough or toughening competition.

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And, when you bring a Porsche, you know, that's a very small group, you know, the
Cognizant, they're hyper aware, kind of like Tesla owners.

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But, know, yeah, right.

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But if you're going after the mass market, Musk has talked about making 20 million cars a
year, which I never believed anyway, and I don't think he's ever gonna get anywhere close

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to that.

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But if you're going to the mass market, the general American buyer, when they buy a new
car, they want everyone to know, I got a new one, I got the latest stuff.

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I mean, we all deny that, we're not that egocentric, but guess what?

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When you buy a new car, man, it feels so good, and you want everybody to know.

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And when you buy a 2024 Model 3 that looks like a 2019 Model 3, people don't know.

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Now, it depends.

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It's very regional.

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So if you're out in California where you see Teslas everywhere, you know, people can't
tell are you in a new one or an old one or what.

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You know, out here in the Midwest where I'm at, just outside Detroit, you know, maybe not
so much the 3 and the Y, but the S X, you don't see them very often.

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So they still look like fresh designs.

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But in places where they've been selling well, people are starting to look at some of the
other alternatives.

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Yeah, John, wanted to talk about that because I agree with both you and Matt that from
what I see it, there's sort of like four main things that are sort of slowing the Tesla

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sales in the US and one is the Musk effect, right?

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I I hear that from a lot of people and think about it, even if it's only a couple of
percent, five percent of potential buyers, like, you know, of what 700 ,000 in sales that

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Tesla in the three in the why last year, whatever.

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What's, what's that math?

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That's let's 35 ,000.

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I have been looking up the numbers.

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like just through the first of this year, Tesla has sold globally 830, 831 ,000 vehicles.

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Then it goes down to BYD at about 726 ,000.

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And then the next closest is a pretty big jump down to Volkswagen group at 316 ,000.

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So, just trying to bring in the numbers for sure.

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a small number of people who say I will not buy Musk issues.

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And I think actually the sub part of that, which is people like me and Matt, who are, you
know, maybe multiple time Tesla owners are like, not again.

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Right.

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So like, if you think about the couple of million people that own Teslas, a lot of them
have decided.

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Like I don't want another Tesla.

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the next time around, and that's losing a big part of the market share, John.

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It's not just like the people that are thinking about an EV and a Tesla.

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that that's a big effect.

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The second thing we talked about that, that I agree is just sort of the models are, you
know, need to be updated, but I also think they need a new model, right?

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And I'm not including the cyber truck.

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I was about to say, Loren, what do you mean?

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It's a brand new Tesla.

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just, literally was driving back about 20 minutes ago behind one and that's definitely not
its best angle.

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mean, and John, you could talk for an hour about this, like, you know, especially like in
the East coast, like what do people like?

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They like the Honda CRVs and the, you know, and the Toyotas and the, you know, like the
smaller, you know, crossovers and stuff like that.

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And, you know, the Y sort of filled that for a while, but now I think we need something
smaller and cheaper than that.

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Right.

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Like, and, and where is it?

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Right.

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I guess we're getting the Robo taxi.

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Well, that's yeah, that distraction piece is a big part of the conversation, right?

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Musk, I think we talked about it previously, is he just, he's lost interest in running
Tesla and the things that he is now interested in as a CEO has, yeah, it has nothing to do

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with product development, new, refreshed product, things like that.

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And, you know, you can put that onto someone like Franz and Holhousen and be like, okay,
like what are you dreaming up and how can you influence must be like, Hey, we really got

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to rethink some of this

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Yeah, just, that's gonna be a tall hill to climb, I think, for where Musk is leading
things, unfortunately.

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John, think the, you know, the last thing they're sort of connected at the hip, which is
where I live in Northern California in the suburbs.

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Literally I can pull up to a stoplight and intersection with eight lanes, right?

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And every car can be a model Y.

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Like I'm literally not exaggerating, right?

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And so they're boring out here.

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Like to your point,

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You know, like you said, people deny this.

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If you ask people, when you buy a car, part of it is you want other people to know that,
you know, you're well off or whatever it is, right?

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A lot of the reasons we buy people don't admit it, but they do.

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Right.

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When you buy a Tesla now, you're not telling anybody anything anymore.

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Right?

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Like it's, it's not that different.

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You know, when we bought our first Tesla in 2016, it was like, Ooh.

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You drive a Tesla.

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Now it's like, you drive a Tesla.

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Right.

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It's like, it's, it's boring.

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Right.

207
00:15:10,948 --> 00:15:18,258
And so, and this, the sort of the second part of that is the competition, which you
touched on, right?

208
00:15:18,258 --> 00:15:26,128
Like four or five years ago, there were, you know, 25 other EV models you could choose
from, including plugin hybrids or whatever.

209
00:15:26,128 --> 00:15:28,648
Now there's like 80, right?

210
00:15:28,648 --> 00:15:33,282
Like, and you know, several years ago, if you wanted a luxury,

211
00:15:33,952 --> 00:15:40,277
sedan, there was the model S there are now like eight luxury sedans.

212
00:15:40,277 --> 00:15:45,942
You can get a lucid, you can get a BMW, you can get a Mercedes, you can get a Audi, right?

213
00:15:45,942 --> 00:15:48,915
Like you can get, you know, whatever, go down the list.

214
00:15:48,915 --> 00:15:49,275
Right.

215
00:15:49,275 --> 00:15:57,382
And so, you know, the, they're being sort of nished to death, I think also, right.

216
00:15:57,382 --> 00:16:02,890
And, and I did this analysis, an article looking at the average sales per unit.

217
00:16:02,890 --> 00:16:05,130
over the last couple of quarters, right?

218
00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:08,830
And it's just, it's, it's basically roughly flat.

219
00:16:08,830 --> 00:16:15,230
It's like five to 6 ,000 sales per, per EV model per, per quarter, right?

220
00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:21,610
It's like, it's, it's not growing because, you know, like, look at this last quarter, we
had the Equinox, the Blazer, right?

221
00:16:21,610 --> 00:16:23,610
You got all these new models.

222
00:16:23,790 --> 00:16:27,910
A lot of those are people that maybe we're going to buy the Mach -E or the Y, right?

223
00:16:27,910 --> 00:16:29,710
And so then they go over to the other ones.

224
00:16:29,710 --> 00:16:33,046
So like, as we get more of these models.

225
00:16:34,012 --> 00:16:40,597
It's really difficult for the sales to grow for any of existing ones, including Tesla.

226
00:16:40,597 --> 00:16:45,541
Yeah, and I think what we're seeing is the typical car buying process, is what do people
everything we've talked about.

227
00:16:45,541 --> 00:16:46,471
What do people know?

228
00:16:46,471 --> 00:16:48,253
Well, they don't want to buy the thing that everyone has.

229
00:16:48,253 --> 00:16:52,456
They do want to be the standout a little bit different, which will only help these new
models coming to market.

230
00:16:52,456 --> 00:16:55,057
Equinox, Blazer go down the list.

231
00:16:56,179 --> 00:16:56,620
Yeah.

232
00:16:56,620 --> 00:16:59,001
actually going to push back on that a little bit.

233
00:16:59,772 --> 00:17:07,467
and it's not like, I think everything you guys are saying is totally true, but in some
ways for the Evie, like first time buyer, I still get questions.

234
00:17:07,467 --> 00:17:10,620
even had a question yesterday about guys like, I get a Tesla?

235
00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:14,542
And I just asked him like, do you want to, do you want to get an electric car and not
really have to think about it?

236
00:17:14,542 --> 00:17:15,233
He's like, yeah.

237
00:17:15,233 --> 00:17:16,344
I was like, okay.

238
00:17:16,344 --> 00:17:18,786
And then he was like, okay, I'm done.

239
00:17:18,786 --> 00:17:20,076
I'm in that's I'll just get that.

240
00:17:20,076 --> 00:17:21,907
It like, think.

241
00:17:23,129 --> 00:17:23,741
Yeah.

242
00:17:23,741 --> 00:17:29,684
is that, is that the, the buying experience that people are accustomed to, which is, just
liked that car.

243
00:17:29,684 --> 00:17:32,575
They haven't had to think about how the car functions for their day to day life.

244
00:17:32,575 --> 00:17:36,688
They've been buying based on the aesthetic that we're seeing that now translated into the
EV world.

245
00:17:36,688 --> 00:17:42,141
But the EV experience as Chase, as you just pointed out, yeah, it's not apples to apples
there.

246
00:17:42,141 --> 00:17:45,052
It's software infrastructure, things of that nature.

247
00:17:45,052 --> 00:17:50,635
And for all the things you can point to Tesla about where you, or even give, you know,
Elon grief, which he's earned.

248
00:17:50,787 --> 00:17:57,600
I mean, my wife and I talked about this, we both drive Teslas and we're both kind of like,
yeah, but what would we opt for if we still wanted to have an electric car?

249
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:05,073
And because of the knowledge we have, the answer is, yeah, instead, I'm just going to get
the sticker for my trunk that says bought it before he was a jerk.

250
00:18:05,073 --> 00:18:14,927
know, I mean, like, honestly, because it's like, I know that if we opted to switch to
another electric car, we'd be giving up things like how well the software works and how

251
00:18:14,927 --> 00:18:16,218
well the infrastructure works.

252
00:18:16,218 --> 00:18:18,893
I, as much as I can say, like, yeah, I

253
00:18:18,893 --> 00:18:22,646
I've got plenty of friends that work at Tesla and they still take a lot of pride in their
work.

254
00:18:22,646 --> 00:18:24,807
So it's like, yes, it is about the CEO to a point.

255
00:18:24,807 --> 00:18:29,070
There are really smart engineers and hardworking people there that make the company
function.

256
00:18:29,070 --> 00:18:38,186
But if the board or somebody does not get Elon to tamp down on what he's been doing as it
relates to the image of Tesla being tied to him, yeah, they are in trouble.

257
00:18:38,186 --> 00:18:45,882
And then that concerns me that people's first time EV experience because they say no to
Tesla and they buy another EV that has deficiencies in software and infrastructure,

258
00:18:45,882 --> 00:18:48,201
they're going to have a potentially

259
00:18:48,201 --> 00:18:51,592
less positive experience for those factors.

260
00:18:51,592 --> 00:18:58,715
And it might actually damage people's first impression of EVs because they're just
thinking how they always do, which is like emotionally and aesthetically, it's like, I

261
00:18:58,715 --> 00:19:00,935
don't like Elon, gonna buy that EV instead.

262
00:19:00,935 --> 00:19:05,917
I think we do run the risk out for EVs in general and Musk clearly doesn't care about that
anymore.

263
00:19:05,917 --> 00:19:08,098
The mission to him, pooh, gone.

264
00:19:08,498 --> 00:19:09,228
He doesn't care.

265
00:19:09,228 --> 00:19:11,499
So that's, yeah, that concerns me.

266
00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:14,559
Look, it concerns me too.

267
00:19:17,219 --> 00:19:19,299
No, I'm just going to say it concerns me too, Matt.

268
00:19:19,299 --> 00:19:21,479
You know, I want to see Tesla succeed.

269
00:19:21,479 --> 00:19:23,019
I think that's a great story.

270
00:19:23,019 --> 00:19:26,559
And I've come from full skeptic to, you know, I drank the Kool -Aid.

271
00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:30,599
But, you know, look, they had a disastrous second quarter.

272
00:19:30,599 --> 00:19:32,859
I mean, their operating profit was down what?

273
00:19:32,859 --> 00:19:34,019
Almost 40%.

274
00:19:34,019 --> 00:19:36,071
That should shake the board up.

275
00:19:36,071 --> 00:19:42,071
And you know, the success behind Tesla has been this 50 % per year growth.

276
00:19:42,071 --> 00:19:42,851
It's over.

277
00:19:42,851 --> 00:19:43,781
That growth is over.

278
00:19:43,781 --> 00:19:49,131
This is why Elon has pivoted to talking about Optimist robots and AI and robotaxes.

279
00:19:49,131 --> 00:19:54,771
Because he's got to do something to keep the faithful, you know, there with the stock
price.

280
00:19:55,431 --> 00:19:57,631
look, Franz, you brought his name up.

281
00:19:57,631 --> 00:19:58,671
He's a great designer.

282
00:19:58,671 --> 00:20:03,559
I bet he's got sketches all over his studio of what they want to do with all the models.

283
00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:06,339
You have to let them rip loose and go for

284
00:20:06,339 --> 00:20:08,139
Yeah, I agree 100%.

285
00:20:08,139 --> 00:20:08,670
Yeah.

286
00:20:08,670 --> 00:20:13,798
What you don't think the Tesla tequila is like a growth market opportunity, Joe?

287
00:20:19,109 --> 00:20:20,743
It probably is.

288
00:20:20,743 --> 00:20:20,993
Yeah.

289
00:20:20,993 --> 00:20:29,923
No, think until we get Elon in line in some way, to your point, John, the numbers, when
those came out, I think everybody just kind of had their like, my God moment about,

290
00:20:30,463 --> 00:20:32,173
someone actually did the math on and broke it down.

291
00:20:32,173 --> 00:20:37,543
said, if we were to do this by the numbers, this stock should be at like $8 a share.

292
00:20:39,163 --> 00:20:40,263
Yeah.

293
00:20:40,463 --> 00:20:42,823
Well, it is the best.

294
00:20:43,003 --> 00:20:44,451
It's the best hype stock.

295
00:20:44,451 --> 00:20:47,101
for the last 10, 15, 20 years, arguably, right?

296
00:20:47,101 --> 00:20:48,251
I mean, and it is that.

297
00:20:48,251 --> 00:20:53,251
I think the promise of what Tesla offered for the last 15, 20 years is what people were
buying into.

298
00:20:53,251 --> 00:20:59,741
And John, to your point, now he's just like, okay, how can I keep the faithful alive and
excited about how we're a tech company doing this crazy, fun stuff?

299
00:20:59,741 --> 00:21:12,011
like, yeah, but we also need you bring the lunch pail to work type CEO on this is still a
car company in so many ways, not this just, like cornucopia of all these things.

300
00:21:12,011 --> 00:21:14,245
Like you guys still do make cars.

301
00:21:14,251 --> 00:21:20,789
And if you don't get that right, you're going to just all the goodwill that you've gotten
from people is just going to just flounder over the years.

302
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:26,120
yeah, mean, without Franz getting let loose, like you said, John, or maybe it Loren, it's
just like, yeah, without that,

303
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:27,891
Yeah.

304
00:21:27,891 --> 00:21:36,956
was, was kind of interesting because like their last, stock or, investor relations that
they did earlier this week, was clear, like all their margin was coming from their energy

305
00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:40,628
storage grid backup stuff, which it's great.

306
00:21:40,628 --> 00:21:44,530
They have that, I guess, but it was just, it kind of reminded me of what we've seen for a
while.

307
00:21:44,530 --> 00:21:53,425
Definitely different, but like the legacy automakers are there trying to take all their
profits from one area and try to cover some of the challenges they've had with the EV

308
00:21:53,425 --> 00:21:54,425
market.

309
00:21:54,976 --> 00:21:56,817
obviously Tesla's kind of didn't.

310
00:21:56,817 --> 00:22:00,437
pretty big 180 because they used to be their strength was kind of the margins they had.

311
00:22:00,437 --> 00:22:08,577
But one thing that, I did kind want to ask you about John, cause this was covered, I think
in the news, like a month or so ago and you guys had mentioned it was like, I believe it

312
00:22:08,577 --> 00:22:14,157
was like 47 % of people who were in an EV then.

313
00:22:14,677 --> 00:22:15,177
Yeah.

314
00:22:15,177 --> 00:22:25,009
And I was just kind of curious if you had heard any more about that or like what your
thoughts are with why, I guess clearly.

315
00:22:25,009 --> 00:22:27,209
Matt and Loren, you have some ideas too, not necessarily.

316
00:22:27,209 --> 00:22:36,469
agree with it, but I wanted to hear your thoughts on what has been the issue with that
struggle as to why just for anyone listening who's not familiar, the, believe it was like

317
00:22:36,469 --> 00:22:40,269
47 % allegedly due to this, globally.

318
00:22:40,269 --> 00:22:40,869
Thanks.

319
00:22:40,869 --> 00:22:46,865
do the survey was saying that when someone went to an EV, then they went back and they
went to a combustion vehicle after

320
00:22:47,311 --> 00:22:51,563
Yeah, look, haven't dived into the details of that survey.

321
00:22:51,563 --> 00:22:54,515
It sounds like click bait to me, to be honest.

322
00:22:55,676 --> 00:23:01,706
I'll have to look more into it, Chase, but I didn't get into the details of that.

323
00:23:01,706 --> 00:23:02,386
Yeah.

324
00:23:02,386 --> 00:23:19,226
So, so chase and Matt and I were on a string with, with John Volcker, the, infamous, EV
analyst, almost as famous as John McElroy, he, actually had some back and forth with, with

325
00:23:19,226 --> 00:23:25,836
McKinsey on that got a bunch of questions answered, including some from me and Matt, but
they're, they're defending it.

326
00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:30,792
But, there are 10 other studies out there that have completely different.

327
00:23:30,864 --> 00:23:32,405
numbers on that.

328
00:23:32,405 --> 00:23:38,938
it's like pick which survey fits your narrative and go with it.

329
00:23:38,938 --> 00:23:45,081
I just find it hard to believe that half of the people that buy an EV go back to a gas
car.

330
00:23:45,081 --> 00:23:47,342
You just don't see it, right?

331
00:23:47,342 --> 00:23:48,623
Some percent, yes.

332
00:23:48,623 --> 00:23:55,526
And there's an old study from a few years ago that UC Davis did that's one of my favorite
on this topic.

333
00:23:55,530 --> 00:23:57,770
It's just, it was kind of old.

334
00:23:57,770 --> 00:24:03,290
know, there was like the early Nissan Leafs and the Fiat 500E in it, right?

335
00:24:03,290 --> 00:24:05,090
So that gives you a sense of how old it is.

336
00:24:05,090 --> 00:24:12,870
But what they found was like literally almost nobody that bought a Tesla went back to an
ICE vehicle.

337
00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:23,290
And the people that went from an EV back to ICE were apartment dwellers, or they were
driving an EV that had 90 miles of range or a combination of both, right?

338
00:24:23,290 --> 00:24:24,262
In other words,

339
00:24:24,262 --> 00:24:25,983
It all comes back to Matt Teske.

340
00:24:25,983 --> 00:24:27,754
It all comes back to charging.

341
00:24:27,754 --> 00:24:30,966
It all comes back to the charging experience, right?

342
00:24:30,966 --> 00:24:40,251
That the people who say an EV is not for me do not have convenient access to charging a
longer range EV.

343
00:24:40,251 --> 00:24:44,773
They rely on shitty public charging, like whatever it is, it's not the car.

344
00:24:44,773 --> 00:24:47,605
It's the charging experience is why they go back.

345
00:24:47,605 --> 00:24:49,756
That's what it all boils down to.

346
00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:52,437
And you know, that takes us back to Tesla.

347
00:24:52,437 --> 00:24:53,758
Why people who

348
00:24:53,758 --> 00:24:58,352
don't want to buy a product from Elon, still buy another Tesla, right?

349
00:24:58,352 --> 00:25:03,287
Because it's the best charging experience, software buying experience, et cetera.

350
00:25:03,287 --> 00:25:06,701
Yeah, I couldn't I couldn't say better myself, Loren.

351
00:25:06,701 --> 00:25:08,052
I mean, I agree with all that.

352
00:25:08,052 --> 00:25:10,995
It's, you know, and so to the point of where do these studies come from?

353
00:25:10,995 --> 00:25:12,928
Who are the target demographics?

354
00:25:12,928 --> 00:25:15,030
What is like everything you just said?

355
00:25:15,030 --> 00:25:17,403
It's like they got to dig a little deeper.

356
00:25:17,403 --> 00:25:20,345
Which EV did you have and where do you live?

357
00:25:20,476 --> 00:25:20,831
Yeah.

358
00:25:20,831 --> 00:25:27,659
And if I remember right, it was a pretty small survey group too, but it was just something
that I remember had been in the news around EV sales that we hadn't talked about since our

359
00:25:27,659 --> 00:25:28,455
last meetings.

360
00:25:28,455 --> 00:25:32,885
sure there was some truth to part of it, but it just, yeah, it just

361
00:25:33,393 --> 00:25:36,180
It was a glaring difference from most of other studies we see.

362
00:25:36,373 --> 00:25:40,137
JD Power has followed this too, and they're very careful.

363
00:25:40,137 --> 00:25:48,854
I think maybe more careful than McKinsey's been in its numbers because if I remember
right, and I admit I didn't read the whole survey, they were looking at trade -ins on new

364
00:25:48,854 --> 00:25:53,428
cars and they were seeing all these electrics and drawing a conclusion from that.

365
00:25:53,428 --> 00:26:01,445
And what the JD Power people have said is, hey, wait a minute, you don't know if they're
really getting rid of an EV because they don't like it.

366
00:26:01,445 --> 00:26:07,580
Maybe they had two EVs in their household and they thought, you know what, do, we should
have a nice vehicle too.

367
00:26:07,580 --> 00:26:09,301
So let's trade that in.

368
00:26:10,022 --> 00:26:15,946
I think there's a lot more study that's got to go into this, but I just don't buy the
numbers that they're giving up on

369
00:26:16,318 --> 00:26:18,901
Yeah, McKinsey did get the fentanyl market right.

370
00:26:18,901 --> 00:26:20,843
They understood that that was a big market.

371
00:26:20,843 --> 00:26:23,306
So we know we know they get some things

372
00:26:24,149 --> 00:26:24,952
Man.

373
00:26:26,001 --> 00:26:28,421
That's a different podcast altogether.

374
00:26:28,721 --> 00:26:29,281
Yeah.

375
00:26:29,281 --> 00:26:30,291
But it is Friday.

376
00:26:30,291 --> 00:26:31,021
So who knows?

377
00:26:31,021 --> 00:26:34,661
Maybe, we're sliding into our week and a little early, guess today.

378
00:26:34,921 --> 00:26:43,531
I guess, one, I, I realize we've already talked about almost 30 minutes on this, but I,
I'm just kind of curious talking about EV sales.

379
00:26:43,531 --> 00:26:46,921
Obviously Tesla has been a big part of what we're talking about already.

380
00:26:47,441 --> 00:26:48,821
let's change it a little bit.

381
00:26:48,821 --> 00:26:49,761
What do you think?

382
00:26:49,761 --> 00:26:52,483
Obviously we're starting to see some kind of better other

383
00:26:52,483 --> 00:27:01,019
actually options come to the market from other automakers in multiple, kind of segments
for, the industry.

384
00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:10,496
What do you think that either the tradition essentially, what do you think anyone other
than Tesla really needs to be doing right now to kind of keep that momentum going to kind

385
00:27:10,496 --> 00:27:14,369
of put the focus back on the narrative that overall EV sales are

386
00:27:15,594 --> 00:27:19,754
Just, can I just throw out one last sort of numbers thing?

387
00:27:19,754 --> 00:27:21,074
So sorry.

388
00:27:22,394 --> 00:27:39,354
So I looked at 57 BEVs over the last year and a half, quarterly sales, and they were up 30
% in Q2 over Q1 of 2023.

389
00:27:41,162 --> 00:27:50,782
If you take out the new models, so all the models that were introduced since then is only
up 14 .8%.

390
00:27:50,782 --> 00:27:51,562
Right.

391
00:27:51,562 --> 00:28:00,422
So basically, you know, the, the, the models that have been around for a year and a half
growing just a little bit.

392
00:28:00,462 --> 00:28:09,782
know, so it's, it's the existing market is growing a little bit and the new market is sort
of growing a little bit, but still it's not adding up to the big numbers.

393
00:28:09,782 --> 00:28:10,762
And I think.

394
00:28:10,762 --> 00:28:19,622
You know, and then John could talk to this like five, six years ago when EV sales were a
couple hundred thousand and the next year they went to double that.

395
00:28:19,622 --> 00:28:20,252
Right.

396
00:28:20,252 --> 00:28:24,982
Like we had 80 % growth, whoo -hoo, a hundred percent growth or whatever it is.

397
00:28:24,982 --> 00:28:31,472
Well, we're at like, you know, including plugin hybrids were like 1 .4 or whatever it is,
you know?

398
00:28:31,472 --> 00:28:39,062
And so now when you get a couple hundred thousand growth, you know, it's like 20 % or
whatever the math is, right?

399
00:28:39,062 --> 00:28:39,978
It's like.

400
00:28:39,978 --> 00:28:50,698
And so I think, you know, it's just, it's just math and this idea that we were going to
continue to see 80, a hundred percent growth just ignores, you know, people's ability to

401
00:28:50,698 --> 00:29:00,188
use Excel and understand that, you know, I mean, Apple years ago stopped having a hundred
percent year over year sales on the iPhone, right?

402
00:29:00,188 --> 00:29:03,918
Cause they were selling 50 million a year or whatever was, right?

403
00:29:03,918 --> 00:29:07,090
they weren't going to sell a hundred million the next year, you know, if

404
00:29:07,090 --> 00:29:08,971
If they sold another million, that was huge.

405
00:29:08,971 --> 00:29:11,493
And I think we're entering that part with, with EVs.

406
00:29:11,493 --> 00:29:22,071
Anyway, I didn't mean to get off, but I think it's just an important point to understand
this narrative that all the automakers are going, my God, EV sales aren't, growing like we

407
00:29:22,071 --> 00:29:23,061
thought.

408
00:29:23,702 --> 00:29:28,485
yeah, did you think they were going to grow a hundred percent every year for the rest of
life?

409
00:29:28,485 --> 00:29:29,746
You don't know.

410
00:29:29,923 --> 00:29:36,263
Maybe, mean, maybe not that, but I think some of them, you know, we keep hearing more to
you about like our projections.

411
00:29:36,263 --> 00:29:38,263
we're not going to do a million in 2025.

412
00:29:38,263 --> 00:29:43,363
We're pulling back on that or we're going to hold out on switching that factory to pure
electric.

413
00:29:43,363 --> 00:29:46,683
So we're actually going to build more trucks at that factory again, still.

414
00:29:46,683 --> 00:29:48,223
So we are seeing that happening.

415
00:29:48,223 --> 00:29:52,463
And to a certain extent, I mean, again, I think that some of this

416
00:29:52,971 --> 00:29:56,042
a lack of understanding of what they were building, the ecosystem they needed to build.

417
00:29:56,042 --> 00:29:59,723
It's like, yeah, if we build cars with big batteries in them, people are going to buy them
like Teslas, right?

418
00:29:59,723 --> 00:30:01,153
Well, geez, let's do that.

419
00:30:01,153 --> 00:30:02,344
And it's like, yeah, okay.

420
00:30:02,344 --> 00:30:04,964
But in the legacy world, it's like, you have to contend with, did you get the software
right?

421
00:30:04,964 --> 00:30:05,854
Where's the infrastructure?

422
00:30:05,854 --> 00:30:10,776
How is your dealer network going to support that and actually make it really a good
experience for people?

423
00:30:10,776 --> 00:30:19,178
There was a lot of pieces that they just kind of did what they've done for years, which is
we produced the vehicle, we'll just put it into the sales system that we have.

424
00:30:19,178 --> 00:30:21,079
And we've got some marketing around it.

425
00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:22,899
And look what EVs are doing.

426
00:30:23,009 --> 00:30:31,534
I mean, not to oversimplify, but I think to an extent there was so much going on to get
the engineering done, just to get these products to market with still missing, having gaps

427
00:30:31,534 --> 00:30:33,205
and understanding of what they're bringing to market.

428
00:30:33,205 --> 00:30:33,785
Right.

429
00:30:33,785 --> 00:30:40,869
And we've seen that play out with these kind of reactive moments of, we need to change
strategy or whatever it look like.

430
00:30:40,869 --> 00:30:46,022
So, to your point, don't think they thought it was going to be like, we're to sell a
hundred thousand of these or a million of these out of the gate.

431
00:30:46,022 --> 00:30:52,087
But to an extent, I just don't think they fundamentally understood a lot of the different
little, you know, support pieces that had to be there to make their

432
00:30:52,087 --> 00:30:53,588
be what they anticipated.

433
00:30:53,588 --> 00:30:58,981
And so we're now seeing that backtracking and add to that the political year that we're in
that's just all kinds of fun.

434
00:30:58,981 --> 00:31:03,194
It's just like, how are they reacting to those moments too?

435
00:31:03,194 --> 00:31:05,386
So there's a lot of things that come into play with that.

436
00:31:05,386 --> 00:31:05,806
Yeah.

437
00:31:05,806 --> 00:31:08,986
I think, you know, and this is like going to be the third topic.

438
00:31:08,986 --> 00:31:11,776
So I don't want to get us out of order here, Chase.

439
00:31:11,776 --> 00:31:22,266
But I think an exclamation point to what you just said, Matt, is the fact that, you know,
a year ago, seven automakers got together and announced Iona, the new charging network,

440
00:31:22,266 --> 00:31:22,986
right?

441
00:31:22,986 --> 00:31:28,824
It took them, you know, 10 years to figure out what Tesla figured out in 2012,

442
00:31:28,824 --> 00:31:29,763
Right.

443
00:31:29,763 --> 00:31:31,493
I was literally driving my car yesterday.

444
00:31:31,493 --> 00:31:41,663
I mean, I have a 2018 Model 3 and I was driving it and it did cross my mind and I was
like, yeah, this coming fall, I will have had this car for six years.

445
00:31:41,963 --> 00:31:48,403
And I thought to myself, and I'm like, okay, six years, like what's happened since I
bought this car?

446
00:31:48,403 --> 00:31:52,163
And yeah, new products have come to market and things have been growing, which is true.

447
00:31:52,163 --> 00:31:58,703
But then if you compare the apples to apples game, and John, maybe think of like the
videos you've done about what's happening in the Chinese market.

448
00:31:58,703 --> 00:31:59,789
And I thought,

449
00:31:59,789 --> 00:32:06,825
Yeah, there's just a dragging of feet still happening domestically on a lot of what they
could be doing to compete.

450
00:32:06,845 --> 00:32:08,757
It really just, it struck me.

451
00:32:08,757 --> 00:32:14,832
was like, yeah, this thing is still better than most brand new EVs you can buy from other
brands today.

452
00:32:14,832 --> 00:32:16,253
And it's six years old.

453
00:32:16,253 --> 00:32:17,434
That's crazy.

454
00:32:17,434 --> 00:32:18,358
How did we get

455
00:32:18,358 --> 00:32:18,798
It's funny.

456
00:32:18,798 --> 00:32:22,670
You mentioned the six year thing because, I didn't really realize this earlier this week.

457
00:32:22,670 --> 00:32:25,082
I'd had my model Y for two years.

458
00:32:25,082 --> 00:32:31,475
And the only reason I know that officially is I got a push notification and it said, they
said a message from Tesla.

459
00:32:31,475 --> 00:32:33,987
was like, okay, I figured it might've been a service thing or something.

460
00:32:33,987 --> 00:32:36,868
And it says, congrats on owning your car for two years.

461
00:32:36,868 --> 00:32:41,991
And then it had this whole like a survey of different things they could be doing
recommendations.

462
00:32:41,991 --> 00:32:45,593
And it's one of those just really surprising.

463
00:32:45,593 --> 00:32:54,435
It's just a completely different approach to it that I thought was pretty fascinating with
kind of like, once again, just the user experience and asking for feedback saying, just

464
00:32:54,435 --> 00:32:57,966
like looking, they had like highlights of how I'd use the car and all this stuff.

465
00:32:57,966 --> 00:33:05,958
And I don't know if it's, if it's more like a generational interest thing, but like,
especially from someone who's kind of worked in the software and tech side, you're like,

466
00:33:05,958 --> 00:33:12,340
of course they test would be the one to do this, but you would see more of like the
Rivians and the lucids of the world to kind of take that approach.

467
00:33:12,340 --> 00:33:14,821
But it is just a really fascinating.

468
00:33:15,185 --> 00:33:17,631
Chase, this is not true.

469
00:33:17,631 --> 00:33:19,684
Tesla does not do marketing.

470
00:33:22,179 --> 00:33:23,392
What do you mean?

471
00:33:24,539 --> 00:33:24,889
okay.

472
00:33:24,889 --> 00:33:25,599
Sorry.

473
00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:27,680
have to, have to translate.

474
00:33:27,801 --> 00:33:38,507
so for years that the Tesla fanboys have, been proud of the fact that all the other
automakers spend all this money on advertising and everything like that.

475
00:33:38,507 --> 00:33:47,372
And Tesla doesn't spend any money on marketing when in fact, cause I've met with people in
the marketing team before and stuff, they do email marketing.

476
00:33:47,372 --> 00:33:49,923
They're now doing Google AdWords, right?

477
00:33:49,923 --> 00:33:51,454
They have like

478
00:33:51,454 --> 00:33:55,336
Hundreds of stores that's marketing, right?

479
00:33:56,298 --> 00:33:58,959
They have superchargers, that's marketing, right?

480
00:33:58,959 --> 00:34:00,070
It's brand, et cetera.

481
00:34:00,070 --> 00:34:02,161
So anyway, I was teasing.

482
00:34:02,265 --> 00:34:11,798
No, no, I just, it just was something that popped in my head because it was such a like
crazy thing to think like my car is telling me I've owned it for two years as like, and I

483
00:34:11,798 --> 00:34:15,949
just thought that that was just such a wild experience, especially if you lease the
vehicle.

484
00:34:15,949 --> 00:34:17,929
It's almost like, it's been two years.

485
00:34:17,929 --> 00:34:18,840
Well, you got a year to go.

486
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,811
And then you could start some sort of drip campaign to remind them at the end of that
third year of the lease, like, Hey, we got this hot deal.

487
00:34:24,811 --> 00:34:25,371
I don't know.

488
00:34:25,371 --> 00:34:27,502
It was just such a, it was such an interesting.

489
00:34:27,502 --> 00:34:29,152
I let's put it this way.

490
00:34:29,152 --> 00:34:31,961
My Subaru never told me how long I had had

491
00:34:31,961 --> 00:34:35,795
My Land Rover from the eighties does not tell me how long I've had it.

492
00:34:36,106 --> 00:34:42,301
and then it doesn't ask me how could, how could I make your life better chase, which is
such a funny experience.

493
00:34:42,301 --> 00:34:48,266
this really defines the difference between that vertically integrated ecosystem compared
to a dealer ecosystem.

494
00:34:48,266 --> 00:34:54,311
The legacies are like, that's the dealer's job to do that outreach and hit people up on
those comments and thoughts.

495
00:34:54,311 --> 00:34:55,252
We don't do that.

496
00:34:55,252 --> 00:34:58,284
Whereas Tesla is, I I've never seen an email like that from Tesla.

497
00:34:58,284 --> 00:35:05,460
think it's cooler doing it, but that's just, it speaks to their engagement with their
customers in a way that is different from legacy.

498
00:35:06,461 --> 00:35:09,163
mean, lesson to be learned from that possibly, yeah.

499
00:35:09,176 --> 00:35:16,490
But yeah, think that's the thing is we're still in that that the legacy mindset of
pivoting from things that they have known to how can they think differently in these

500
00:35:16,490 --> 00:35:20,697
processes and Yeah, we're still in the throes of how that will all play out

501
00:35:20,697 --> 00:35:23,088
No, I'll be curious if you, I'm sure you'll probably get one.

502
00:35:23,088 --> 00:35:25,149
It was just a push notification to my phone.

503
00:35:25,149 --> 00:35:35,655
So I definitely, as someone kind also in the marketing tech background, I'm curious to see
what you think of it when you get one, but John, what, what, where, mean, yeah, I think

504
00:35:35,655 --> 00:35:36,946
this will probably be the last of it.

505
00:35:36,946 --> 00:35:47,802
Where, where do you think that, you're hearing as far as like in Detroit, as far as with
the legacy OEMs, is this everything that we're kind of babbling about aligning with some

506
00:35:47,802 --> 00:35:50,513
of the stuff you're hearing from the messaging as well

507
00:35:50,775 --> 00:35:58,359
the repositioning of selling EVs or how they're trying to approach them as a product to
the customer.

508
00:35:58,587 --> 00:36:08,421
Look, they got their hair on fire and it's not just Detroit, you know, it's Stuttgart,
it's Tokyo, it's, they've got this transition to EVs to make and now they found out, you

509
00:36:08,421 --> 00:36:16,455
just don't put batteries in electric motors, you got to do software -defined vehicles, you
got to go to zonal architecture, you've got to develop this with digital twins, it's like,

510
00:36:16,455 --> 00:36:19,436
holy crap, we don't know how to do any of that stuff.

511
00:36:19,436 --> 00:36:24,218
And you know, you've seen them try to do things on their own and fail miserably.

512
00:36:24,218 --> 00:36:26,631
You know, look at Volkswagen with Cariad.

513
00:36:26,631 --> 00:36:37,011
I mean, it fell flat on its face twice and they ran to Rivian and paid them $5 billion to
get their zonal architecture after they spent, I don't know, at least that much money or

514
00:36:37,011 --> 00:36:39,251
more trying to get Cariad going.

515
00:36:39,251 --> 00:36:44,751
And now they've got the Chinese breathing down their necks with maybe a 35 % cost
advantage.

516
00:36:44,751 --> 00:36:51,351
Maybe they're coming into Mexico and backdoor the tariffs that way.

517
00:36:51,431 --> 00:36:53,971
So they're desperately worried.

518
00:36:54,471 --> 00:36:58,731
They know that what they've got, well, let me make some statements here.

519
00:36:58,731 --> 00:37:05,381
Ford knows what it's got right now was a rush to market job, slap stuff together as fast
as we can.

520
00:37:05,381 --> 00:37:09,061
We got the Lightning, we got the Mach -E, we got the E Transit.

521
00:37:09,061 --> 00:37:13,721
They know their next generation vehicle is not gonna be out until about 2027.

522
00:37:13,721 --> 00:37:16,451
That's when they'll start to get competitive.

523
00:37:16,531 --> 00:37:23,559
GM, I'm not gonna say bullish on, but I'm starting to admire their, stick to their
strategy.

524
00:37:23,559 --> 00:37:27,639
They clearly over -invested like Ford did too.

525
00:37:27,639 --> 00:37:28,879
They were exuberant.

526
00:37:28,879 --> 00:37:33,859
And going back, Matt and Loren, to some of the earlier discussion, they were misled by the
market.

527
00:37:33,859 --> 00:37:44,019
Remember, Tesla got a million and a half reservations, deposits for the Cybertruck, fully
refundable.

528
00:37:44,019 --> 00:37:46,499
People went, holy crap, look at that.

529
00:37:46,499 --> 00:37:47,549
Who's ever seen that?

530
00:37:47,549 --> 00:37:51,175
Ford got 200 ,000 deposits.

531
00:37:51,175 --> 00:37:52,175
for the lightning.

532
00:37:52,175 --> 00:37:53,915
Where are those people?

533
00:37:53,915 --> 00:38:03,275
GM got, I don't know if they ever really announced the numbers, but they said, look, we're
getting strong orders for the electric Silverado, Cadillac Lyric and whatnot.

534
00:38:03,395 --> 00:38:12,515
But having said that, GM is probably going to end up this year in the United States
selling somewhere between 200 and 250 ,000 EVs.

535
00:38:12,515 --> 00:38:19,335
They claim that once they break the 200 ,000 barrier, they're going to start to have a
variable profit on those

536
00:38:19,687 --> 00:38:23,867
Honda's part of that mix too, the prologue is just hitting the market.

537
00:38:23,867 --> 00:38:28,787
They claim within a 12 -month period they're going to sell 40 ,000 of those things.

538
00:38:28,787 --> 00:38:31,407
So it's starting to happen.

539
00:38:31,407 --> 00:38:41,927
But, you know, if it wasn't for that irrational exuberance of four years ago where they
went, yeah, we need all these plants, we need all this capacity, if they had been a little

540
00:38:41,927 --> 00:38:45,127
bit more conservative, they'd look a whole lot smarter right now.

541
00:38:45,127 --> 00:38:49,433
And that's why you're seeing them either delay plants opening,

542
00:38:49,433 --> 00:38:58,179
or moving ICE vehicles into them because they can clearly make way more EVs than there is
demand for right now.

543
00:38:58,794 --> 00:39:04,434
Yeah, John, think it's Q4 is going to be fascinating this year, right?

544
00:39:04,434 --> 00:39:11,584
Because you've got, the Equinox and the Blazer, you know, just they're starting to scale
up production and stuff.

545
00:39:11,584 --> 00:39:23,514
And if those things are hits, you know, from an EV sales perspective, if they're selling,
you know, six, eight, 10 ,000 a quarter of those, you know, like that, that's going to be

546
00:39:23,514 --> 00:39:24,544
like really pretty solid.

547
00:39:24,544 --> 00:39:28,136
But if they're only selling three or 4 ,000 a quarter or something like

548
00:39:28,136 --> 00:39:30,247
That's going to be concerning.

549
00:39:31,348 --> 00:39:34,390
And what does that Honda Prologue do?

550
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:36,872
And then the Acura version.

551
00:39:37,633 --> 00:39:44,137
So we've got these new models that are either coming out or just sort of scaling up.

552
00:39:44,137 --> 00:39:57,096
And I think that's going to be the real litmus test of where this market is at, is if some
of these new models that are like solid models, they speak to the middle America.

553
00:39:57,096 --> 00:39:57,416
Right?

554
00:39:57,416 --> 00:39:59,598
These are Chevy buyers, right?

555
00:39:59,598 --> 00:40:01,969
It's like, will they actually buy them?

556
00:40:02,430 --> 00:40:04,061
That's, that's going to be fascinating.

557
00:40:04,061 --> 00:40:07,759
Or do they buy them for like one or two quarters and then it like plateaus?

558
00:40:07,759 --> 00:40:09,060
That's what I was about to say.

559
00:40:09,060 --> 00:40:11,461
Like is it full circle on our conversation?

560
00:40:11,461 --> 00:40:15,984
Is it the fresh new car in town and people jump out and grab at them?

561
00:40:15,984 --> 00:40:18,846
And then all of a sudden it's like, yeah, but what was that interest?

562
00:40:18,846 --> 00:40:26,120
They do have some pent up demand from people that have been interested in some of these
new models from EV, people in the EV community that have been on lists for Equinox and

563
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:27,331
Blazor, et cetera.

564
00:40:27,331 --> 00:40:31,833
Blazor had that issue from the outset was from the software side looks to be resolved.

565
00:40:31,833 --> 00:40:35,029
Hopefully Equinox hopefully doesn't have the same types of issues.

566
00:40:35,029 --> 00:40:38,301
I think that what we're, think it kind of, again, full sort of our conversation.

567
00:40:38,301 --> 00:40:48,197
People are still hungry for new options and EVs, especially because of what we're seeing
with what we talked about with Tesla earlier, which is, know, this lightning rod CEO

568
00:40:48,197 --> 00:40:53,950
that's, that's, you know, again, doing damage to the brand and the product combined with
the aging product.

569
00:40:53,950 --> 00:40:56,091
Everybody's looking around going, well, what else is on the market?

570
00:40:56,091 --> 00:40:59,653
So the timing actually is really good for some of these things that are coming from like
GM.

571
00:40:59,653 --> 00:41:02,935
So, but I think exactly what you said, Loren is like, yeah, but how is

572
00:41:03,253 --> 00:41:04,307
longevity to that?

573
00:41:04,307 --> 00:41:10,293
is it going to be it's just new hotness on the market and then a quarter or two later,
it's like, womp womp, you know?

574
00:41:10,293 --> 00:41:13,686
you know, look, the real question too is who gets elected in November?

575
00:41:13,686 --> 00:41:28,165
You know, and if Trump gets reelected and tries to, you hadn't noticed a, but I mean,
look, we've seen it happen in China where they reduced incentives for EVs and sales

576
00:41:28,165 --> 00:41:28,776
softened.

577
00:41:28,776 --> 00:41:32,849
saw it, we're seeing it happen in Germany where sales are actually going down.

578
00:41:32,849 --> 00:41:39,483
I mean, it's not the growth rate slowing down, actual sales going down because the Germans
yank the incentives on

579
00:41:39,483 --> 00:41:42,566
So that's a real danger.

580
00:41:43,488 --> 00:41:56,113
that's why I fully expect the auto industry, dealers, the unions to say, hey, wait a
minute, Trump, if he gets elected, don't financially damage these companies because that's

581
00:41:56,113 --> 00:41:59,687
what you're going to do if you yank all this stuff out from under

582
00:41:59,691 --> 00:42:00,551
Yeah.

583
00:42:00,612 --> 00:42:01,172
Yeah.

584
00:42:01,172 --> 00:42:04,195
And what's interesting, the comments are made on that on the political side of it.

585
00:42:04,195 --> 00:42:12,082
When, you know, when Elon was all gung -ho of talking politics, like the last month on
Twitter, for example, sorry, X, I just can't bring myself to call it X.

586
00:42:12,082 --> 00:42:13,263
It just sounds ridiculous.

587
00:42:13,263 --> 00:42:19,958
But, but you noticed how even his commentary around when he was asked during the earnings
call, he said, well, frankly, it's not really going to hurt us much.

588
00:42:19,958 --> 00:42:22,431
I mean, it might hurt other people, but it's not going to hurt us much.

589
00:42:22,431 --> 00:42:27,715
And I was thinking, wow, that's, that's again, so far from the original mission

590
00:42:27,715 --> 00:42:30,195
what he said he was trying to accomplish with this company.

591
00:42:30,195 --> 00:42:31,575
But no, think John, you're right.

592
00:42:31,575 --> 00:42:40,535
think if that does go to the wayside, then even how they did clarify and clean up how that
was working as it relates to what vehicles were eligible.

593
00:42:40,975 --> 00:42:45,205
Yeah, we stand to see again, I don't think it's going to drop off.

594
00:42:45,205 --> 00:42:48,315
But I mean, we are seeing this, the growth curve is not this hockey stick.

595
00:42:48,315 --> 00:42:54,115
It's more realistic in the realm of we are talking about $50 ,000, $60 ,000 products here
that and to Loren's

596
00:42:54,115 --> 00:42:59,475
Where's the $20 ,000, $30 ,000 one legitimately that people can actually afford?

597
00:42:59,475 --> 00:43:04,555
Because when I was flying home from a recent trip, I was at the airport, I went to buy a
McDonald's hash brown.

598
00:43:04,555 --> 00:43:09,425
It was $3 .59 for a hash brown from McDonald's.

599
00:43:09,425 --> 00:43:15,915
And I thought, man, if this is pissing me off, I can only imagine how people feel when
they're like, how much is that new car?

600
00:43:15,915 --> 00:43:17,175
Forget it.

601
00:43:17,175 --> 00:43:19,215
You know, it's like, good Lord.

602
00:43:19,215 --> 00:43:20,615
So, yeah.

603
00:43:21,059 --> 00:43:22,684
Yeah, I mean, I know what.

604
00:43:22,684 --> 00:43:33,194
Matt, the average age of cars is going up like, like six tenths of a year, you know, like
half a year or, you know, nine months, like every year now.

605
00:43:33,194 --> 00:43:33,614
Right.

606
00:43:33,614 --> 00:43:38,744
You know, pretty, in a couple of years, we're going to be at the average age of cars is
like 20, 20 years old.

607
00:43:38,744 --> 00:43:39,064
Right.

608
00:43:39,064 --> 00:43:49,454
Because, think about it, cars are made so much better now than they were 30, 40 years ago
that, you know, a 20 year old Toyota Camry is still a good car.

609
00:43:49,454 --> 00:43:50,074
Right.

610
00:43:50,074 --> 00:43:50,671
Right.

611
00:43:50,671 --> 00:43:56,191
I mean, I get that argument from friends all the time who will say, you know, hey, I love
the idea about going electric, but I have to be pretty honest with you, like my car's paid

612
00:43:56,191 --> 00:43:57,831
off and it runs well still.

613
00:43:57,831 --> 00:43:59,491
I'm not really having problems.

614
00:43:59,491 --> 00:44:01,711
So I mean, maybe for my next one.

615
00:44:01,711 --> 00:44:05,891
yeah, to that, to how do we replace this aging fleet?

616
00:44:05,891 --> 00:44:13,971
Well, if the aging fleet is still operating way that people say, and people are getting
pinched at the wallet, they're kind of like, yeah, unless that's a $20 ,000 EV that really

617
00:44:13,971 --> 00:44:16,863
makes it so like, you know, unmistakable, I should do

618
00:44:16,995 --> 00:44:18,235
Maybe they'll wait for it.

619
00:44:18,235 --> 00:44:26,285
But then it's like, what do they buy in a used age DV that has technology from 2018 that
wasn't a Tesla, you know, or 2020 that wasn't a Tesla.

620
00:44:26,285 --> 00:44:28,095
And all of a sudden it's like, yeah, what are they buying?

621
00:44:28,095 --> 00:44:33,245
It's like, there's a software gremlin in that, that, you know, legacy OEM vehicle you're
looking at.

622
00:44:33,245 --> 00:44:36,045
And that's the thing is people are discovering this stuff in real time.

623
00:44:36,045 --> 00:44:40,575
We just don't have an educated buying market that understands what they're getting into.

624
00:44:40,575 --> 00:44:42,075
They just approach it like they always have.

625
00:44:42,075 --> 00:44:43,565
we're going to have so many of these.

626
00:44:43,565 --> 00:44:51,572
just kind of start and stop moments as it relates to how people are responding to what
they're getting simply by sake of, is it new or old or what's the price?

627
00:44:54,057 --> 00:45:03,577
well, think one of the other things that I've found really interesting, well, kind of work
with some dealerships lately is kind of going through the political side of it is if those

628
00:45:03,577 --> 00:45:08,377
all go away as far as the incentives, I think that may help with the sales process.

629
00:45:08,377 --> 00:45:16,217
Cause I've recently had an experience where they just were not interested in dealing with
like, it qualifies for 37 50, this qualifies for that.

630
00:45:16,217 --> 00:45:21,325
Or if you lease it, then it's 7 ,500 and they just seem to feel like I'm not kind of
understandably that

631
00:45:21,325 --> 00:45:28,698
overconfli, over -complified the already complicated sales process of selling an EV over a
combustion vehicle.

632
00:45:29,768 --> 00:45:42,704
but I also say like with the used market, that is such a huge market compared to the new
vehicle market that it's, I, yeah, it'll, it only slowed down that adoption, right?

633
00:45:42,704 --> 00:45:50,957
If there's less EV new car sales, in addition to all the concerns you've kind of brought
up about what the quality of those are and concerns around,

634
00:45:51,163 --> 00:45:58,477
battery degradation, other things for some of these EVs that are newer to the market
versus like the decade Tesla's already had for a lot of their products.

635
00:45:59,163 --> 00:46:03,725
I mean, man, this is a weird time to be alive in the world of automotive.

636
00:46:03,725 --> 00:46:05,626
mean, it's, and it's volatile.

637
00:46:05,626 --> 00:46:09,298
And again, week to week, day to day, I mean, I, again, we've discussed this in the past.

638
00:46:09,298 --> 00:46:18,173
I try to do my best to just not respond to the daily news and really take a step back,
look at the parade view of the conversation and say, okay, how does this impact the long

639
00:46:18,173 --> 00:46:18,993
term here?

640
00:46:18,993 --> 00:46:22,434
Or is this just like a fly by night, you know, news hit?

641
00:46:22,523 --> 00:46:28,536
Well, know, Gartner Research does this thing that they call the hype cycle that they've
developed.

642
00:46:28,536 --> 00:46:32,048
And it's sort of a bell curve kind of a thing chart.

643
00:46:32,048 --> 00:46:34,999
And it shows out, you know, a new technology comes out and it's sort of there.

644
00:46:34,999 --> 00:46:38,651
And then all of a sudden it catches fire and man, it takes off.

645
00:46:38,651 --> 00:46:42,033
And that's what we saw with EVs over the last couple of years.

646
00:46:42,033 --> 00:46:45,215
The hype got way out in front of the reality.

647
00:46:45,215 --> 00:46:45,995
And

648
00:46:46,055 --> 00:46:48,815
per the Gartner hype cycle, things collapse.

649
00:46:48,815 --> 00:46:51,575
Everybody thinks it's garbage, it's never going to happen.

650
00:46:51,575 --> 00:46:59,295
And that's where we're at, I think kind of right now, at least with the general public,
that yeah, EVs are stupid, it's not going to happen.

651
00:46:59,295 --> 00:47:03,505
And it's from there that you see slow but steady growth.

652
00:47:03,505 --> 00:47:05,235
And that's what I expect to see.

653
00:47:05,235 --> 00:47:07,295
I've been saying this for a number of years.

654
00:47:07,295 --> 00:47:12,667
My own personal opinion is somewhere in the 2027, 2028 timeframe.

655
00:47:12,667 --> 00:47:16,483
we're really going to see EV sales take off in the United States.

656
00:47:16,483 --> 00:47:16,983
Hmm.

657
00:47:16,983 --> 00:47:20,723
Well, yeah, everything you said on John, I think is 100 % accurate.

658
00:47:20,723 --> 00:47:22,813
And the, that's what we talked about at beginning of the year.

659
00:47:22,813 --> 00:47:27,973
It's like what I, when I was, whatever the, you know, projection I had, Chase, you said,
was like, the hype train is going to come off the rails.

660
00:47:27,973 --> 00:47:31,163
Whatever I said, I wasn't as eloquent about it as John just was.

661
00:47:31,163 --> 00:47:36,763
But, but I mean, but that, think that part of it is just, we, we've had so much hype
around it.

662
00:47:36,763 --> 00:47:44,543
And it, mean, name the topic, we have hype around on a 24 hour basis and people just need
practical information around, is it real?

663
00:47:44,543 --> 00:47:45,123
Is it not?

664
00:47:45,123 --> 00:47:45,837
And

665
00:47:45,837 --> 00:47:49,386
We're weeding through a lot of the BS right now, which I think is a good

666
00:47:50,065 --> 00:47:52,485
Well, I guess that's an interesting segue real quickly.

667
00:47:52,485 --> 00:47:55,745
know I'd put it as one of the bigger things to talk about, but I don't think there's as
much.

668
00:47:55,745 --> 00:47:58,765
was kind of EVs versus hybrids.

669
00:47:58,765 --> 00:48:04,855
And I think in the auto industry and among us, people talk about hybrids and are excited
about it.

670
00:48:04,855 --> 00:48:06,145
Talking to mainstream people.

671
00:48:06,145 --> 00:48:07,965
don't think they really care.

672
00:48:08,245 --> 00:48:11,805
outside of like how you said it, John, that they shouldn't be talking that it's a hybrid.

673
00:48:11,805 --> 00:48:15,065
They should just educate people and say it gets 50 miles a gallon.

674
00:48:15,085 --> 00:48:17,645
The only people I have talked

675
00:48:17,783 --> 00:48:26,197
As far as like buying demographic, and I'm curious for everyone else's thought that are
kind of bought in and think hybrids are interesting are like traditional Ram truck buyers.

676
00:48:26,197 --> 00:48:28,497
They're like, okay, that kind of makes sense.

677
00:48:28,538 --> 00:48:30,768
And they're very anti -V usually.

678
00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:39,162
and I realized there's a lot of generalizations I'm using, but that's like the only part
of the market where I've heard any sort of interesting enthusiasm for hybrids.

679
00:48:39,162 --> 00:48:45,805
And I'm curious if that's something that you guys have been seeing as well, because I
think overall, especially with a lot of other,

680
00:48:46,541 --> 00:48:50,793
more general consumers, I think the idea of an EV makes a lot of sense to them.

681
00:48:50,793 --> 00:48:55,446
It's if it can work with their life and it's not a big change to make that adoption.

682
00:48:55,606 --> 00:48:58,807
so I'm kind of curious on your thoughts of hybrids are kind of.

683
00:49:00,589 --> 00:49:06,282
I just, I feel like people just don't have the enthusiasm that there was for them in
talking about these discussions.

684
00:49:06,282 --> 00:49:08,453
Like there was even a year

685
00:49:09,511 --> 00:49:12,041
Well, look, sales of hybrids have taken off.

686
00:49:12,041 --> 00:49:16,191
mean, if you're an automaker with a strong hybrid portfolio, you're sitting pretty.

687
00:49:16,191 --> 00:49:23,451
Toyota, Honda, Ford, the Hyundai Kia Group, I mean, their hybrid sales are up
dramatically.

688
00:49:23,451 --> 00:49:32,811
And what's so funny to me is the same crowd that's bashing EVs saying they're not really
good for the environment, don't make any sense, are the exact same people who were bashing

689
00:49:32,811 --> 00:49:35,011
hybrids 15 years ago.

690
00:49:35,011 --> 00:49:36,081
You know, they hated hybrids.

691
00:49:36,081 --> 00:49:37,361
They hated that thing.

692
00:49:37,361 --> 00:49:40,413
But now, hey, hybrid's got an internal combustion engine in it.

693
00:49:40,413 --> 00:49:42,405
All right, that's what I want.

694
00:49:42,405 --> 00:49:43,516
That's good.

695
00:49:43,516 --> 00:49:49,660
And, you know, they keep talking about, electrics being shoved down their throat.

696
00:49:49,660 --> 00:49:52,112
They don't want the government telling them what to buy.

697
00:49:52,112 --> 00:50:00,409
Well, I don't know anyone who's telling you what you have to go out and buy, but that's
become this, this narrative amongst the, anti -EV crowd.

698
00:50:00,409 --> 00:50:03,909
And, and for whatever reason, well, we know the reason.

699
00:50:03,909 --> 00:50:08,041
They're embracing hybrids because hybrids got an internal combustion engine in

700
00:50:09,322 --> 00:50:23,622
So just to put some numbers on this, so the industry and the media tend to talk about EV
sales share, the percentage of new vehicles purchased each year that are EVs, BEVs, and

701
00:50:23,622 --> 00:50:26,262
plug -in hybrids are one of those.

702
00:50:26,802 --> 00:50:34,422
To me, the more fascinating number is the VIO numbers, the vehicles in operation and
looking at that.

703
00:50:34,422 --> 00:50:39,146
And there now about 295 million vehicles on the road

704
00:50:39,146 --> 00:50:40,726
in the US.

705
00:50:41,406 --> 00:50:47,616
like 6 and 1 million of those are BEVs and plug -in hybrids.

706
00:50:47,616 --> 00:50:49,656
Somewhere in there, I don't have it memorized.

707
00:50:49,656 --> 00:50:56,176
So we've now reached about 1 .6 % by my latest VIO forecast.

708
00:50:56,176 --> 00:51:00,506
The vehicles on the road have a plug, right?

709
00:51:00,506 --> 00:51:01,986
The point

710
00:51:02,186 --> 00:51:10,026
It's going to take us to like 2060, 2065 or whatever to get rid of those 290 million ice
vehicles.

711
00:51:10,026 --> 00:51:16,166
Cause just like we said, they're lasting 20, 30, 40 years now and they're still good cars
oftentimes.

712
00:51:16,166 --> 00:51:16,886
Right?

713
00:51:16,886 --> 00:51:25,666
So the point is, that while, know, everybody talks about, you know, BEVs, we got to get
everybody in a full electric vehicle.

714
00:51:26,326 --> 00:51:30,146
It's going to take decades to get.

715
00:51:30,218 --> 00:51:35,598
BEVs to the point where they work for everybody, they're affordable, all that kind of
stuff.

716
00:51:35,598 --> 00:51:39,018
So our goal is not 100 % BEVs, right?

717
00:51:39,018 --> 00:51:43,358
Isn't our goal to reduce carbon emissions and pollution?

718
00:51:43,418 --> 00:51:54,922
And so if we can get somebody out of a truck that's getting 16 miles to a gallon into one
that's getting 25 miles to a gallon, you know, or, you know,

719
00:51:54,922 --> 00:51:59,292
We're cutting carbon emissions by 30, 40 % or 50 % or whatever.

720
00:51:59,292 --> 00:52:04,262
And so I'm a big fan of hybrids because it's reality.

721
00:52:05,122 --> 00:52:15,522
Like if 90%, 92 % of the US market buying a new car this year, don't buy a BEV, right?

722
00:52:15,842 --> 00:52:22,732
Well, would we rather have a hybrid that gets 35, 40 miles per gallon instead of one that
gets 20 miles per gallon?

723
00:52:22,732 --> 00:52:24,422
Like it's just

724
00:52:24,542 --> 00:52:25,745
Common sense, isn't it?

725
00:52:25,745 --> 00:52:32,328
Like I just, don't get why anybody would be against hybrids because they're perfectionist.

726
00:52:32,403 --> 00:52:38,243
talking about long standing brand recognition of what took 20 years.

727
00:52:38,243 --> 00:52:46,752
Yeah, it's taken 20 plus years for people to go from, saying, that's, mean, South Park
made a really hilarious episode about people, their Priuses, right?

728
00:52:46,752 --> 00:52:53,263
I mean, like, that was the it's taken that long to understand the psychology of what
people were having against that.

729
00:52:53,263 --> 00:52:56,623
And it's it's again, that lily pad car kind of concept, right?

730
00:52:56,623 --> 00:52:57,219
It's

731
00:52:57,219 --> 00:52:59,649
That was the greeny car 20 years ago.

732
00:52:59,649 --> 00:53:00,729
like, well, that's a hippie car.

733
00:53:00,729 --> 00:53:02,279
I'm never buying that stupid thing.

734
00:53:02,279 --> 00:53:11,779
Now the psychology around it is, well, it's not about that the hybrid isn't hippie as much
as it's like, as John was pointing out, I want my miles per gallon to be better than 10.

735
00:53:11,779 --> 00:53:17,249
So if I can still fill up with gas every day and get 22, okay.

736
00:53:17,249 --> 00:53:18,919
And if that's called a hybrid, fine, man.

737
00:53:18,919 --> 00:53:20,079
Like I'm game.

738
00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:23,422
The hippie car is the one that's got the plug that runs on electricity.

739
00:53:23,422 --> 00:53:23,839
Yes.

740
00:53:23,839 --> 00:53:26,610
hybrid, whatever it is, it's, runs on gas.

741
00:53:26,610 --> 00:53:27,860
That's not a weird thing now.

742
00:53:27,860 --> 00:53:32,972
So that took a fifth of a quarter or quarter of a century for that to kind of, you know,
rotate through.

743
00:53:32,972 --> 00:53:38,423
to your point, Loren, yeah, it's like, how much longer is that going to take for plugins
and pure electrics to get to where we're at?

744
00:53:38,423 --> 00:53:43,845
Well, if we start doing the math and also that longevity of gas cars on the road, yeah, we
are decades away.

745
00:53:43,845 --> 00:53:49,716
And I said to people all the time when they say, we got to get that gas, the gas model of
how you get gas out of people's minds.

746
00:53:49,716 --> 00:53:50,617
We have to kill it immediately.

747
00:53:50,617 --> 00:53:52,591
I'm like, you won't.

748
00:53:52,591 --> 00:53:53,983
Yeah.

749
00:53:53,983 --> 00:53:56,223
is a generational change.

750
00:53:56,223 --> 00:54:05,503
You know, we will in 20, 30 years, we will have plenty of people who will see that home
that own homes that will say, yeah, I, I just fill up at home 99 % of the time.

751
00:54:05,503 --> 00:54:06,053
I don't care.

752
00:54:06,053 --> 00:54:06,623
I don't think about it.

753
00:54:06,623 --> 00:54:07,373
It doesn't bother me at all.

754
00:54:07,373 --> 00:54:08,083
And it's cheap.

755
00:54:08,083 --> 00:54:13,083
Like that will be a thing that is much more mainstream understood, but the experiential
piece has to happen.

756
00:54:13,083 --> 00:54:16,003
And all these factors we're talking about are going to have to live themselves out.

757
00:54:16,003 --> 00:54:21,727
And yeah, it's the human element is the thing that no matter how much we talk about this,
how are humans responding to

758
00:54:21,727 --> 00:54:30,272
And so often that gets overlooked because as we talked about, and as John pointed out
earlier about that hype cycle of just how, just get the product in market, just get it in

759
00:54:30,272 --> 00:54:30,422
there.

760
00:54:30,422 --> 00:54:33,854
like, it truly ready for people to use yet?

761
00:54:33,854 --> 00:54:35,374
No, it's going to take time.

762
00:54:36,229 --> 00:54:38,470
Yeah, Loren, I completely agree with what you said.

763
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:40,660
The focus has got to be on carbon reduction.

764
00:54:40,660 --> 00:54:42,241
Who cares how you get there?

765
00:54:42,241 --> 00:54:43,121
Who cares?

766
00:54:43,121 --> 00:54:45,842
And in fact, you know, I'm dreaming now, right?

767
00:54:45,842 --> 00:54:54,455
I would have much preferred the government or the EPA to go to each one of these car
companies and say, General Motors, you got to reduce your carbon footprint by X number of

768
00:54:54,455 --> 00:54:55,715
tons this year.

769
00:54:55,715 --> 00:55:02,939
And here's what every year is going to You figure it out and we're going to have some sort
of mechanism to verify, know, trust but verify.

770
00:55:02,939 --> 00:55:09,576
But, you know, let's focus on carbon reduction, not on specific technology that we want
you to use.

771
00:55:09,576 --> 00:55:10,348
Yeah.

772
00:55:10,348 --> 00:55:15,280
And the answer is still probably going to be electric vehicles, right?

773
00:55:16,264 --> 00:55:18,376
But don't prescript

774
00:55:18,376 --> 00:55:21,981
with their, kind of mandates for

775
00:55:23,871 --> 00:55:27,645
vehicles yeah I mean that's kind of what they were doing

776
00:55:27,645 --> 00:55:32,947
slowly walking into the, you know, you know, carbon credit type thing of like, how did
Tesla make money for a decade?

777
00:55:32,947 --> 00:55:33,637
And what were they doing?

778
00:55:33,637 --> 00:55:40,730
I mean, so like, so do we put the backs yet again, on other companies are willing to make
pure electric fleet, these other companies just buy their credits from somewhere else.

779
00:55:40,730 --> 00:55:42,691
I mean, now we're getting into the deep politics of it.

780
00:55:42,691 --> 00:55:49,474
And the truth is, is we need genuine vision and leadership from companies on product
development.

781
00:55:49,474 --> 00:55:52,695
And so that's where I really look at what we're doing, you know, to basically

782
00:55:52,733 --> 00:55:58,846
shield Americans from products that are being advanced and designed well outside of the
United States.

783
00:55:58,846 --> 00:56:03,788
And the American public is just not really being exposed to what they should be thinking
of as options.

784
00:56:03,788 --> 00:56:07,609
And we're shielding our domestic manufacturers from having to compete.

785
00:56:07,609 --> 00:56:10,470
And so it doesn't really help us in that way either.

786
00:56:10,591 --> 00:56:19,734
yeah, everything we're discussing right now is a very interesting and crazy web of what's
the tipping point that actually gets people to say they want it and the industry

787
00:56:19,734 --> 00:56:21,435
domestically disabled do

788
00:56:21,791 --> 00:56:24,273
And then how do the politics align with all of that?

789
00:56:25,534 --> 00:56:26,024
I don't know.

790
00:56:26,024 --> 00:56:26,785
Do we have another hour?

791
00:56:26,785 --> 00:56:28,996
Because we could really unpack that.

792
00:56:30,158 --> 00:56:35,269
since we just solve that, obviously, let's go over to the state of EV charging.

793
00:56:35,570 --> 00:56:42,171
but I guess, no, one thing I'll just say is I think everything you guys said was pretty
accurate, but there's nothing.

794
00:56:42,171 --> 00:56:51,634
I think one of the advantages to why I think EVs will overall take off faster than,
hybrids did is hybrids just are not fun to drive.

795
00:56:51,634 --> 00:56:55,109
And as like for an average American or anyone that's

796
00:56:55,109 --> 00:56:58,441
You're not going to buy a car like, if I buy this car, I'd buy a car.

797
00:56:58,441 --> 00:57:08,376
If it saves me money, I'm not going to buy a car probably because there's a carbon
reduction, but if it's drives faster, it's more fun and it's better for the environment.

798
00:57:08,376 --> 00:57:08,626
Okay.

799
00:57:08,626 --> 00:57:09,486
Now I'm kind of interested.

800
00:57:09,486 --> 00:57:10,156
And

801
00:57:10,538 --> 00:57:19,588
Yeah, if you can save several hundred dollars a month on gas, because if you're driving
like a big Ram pickup that gets, you know, 15 miles per gallon and you can get it up to,

802
00:57:19,588 --> 00:57:23,158
as Matt said, to 22 or something, right.

803
00:57:24,245 --> 00:57:31,960
It matters, but to Chase's point, this gets back to even we're talking about earlier, like
even the aesthetic of like, man, Tesla's got to update their fleet because it's aging.

804
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,883
It's like what triggers people to say yes to wanting to buy the product they're buying,
you know?

805
00:57:35,883 --> 00:57:38,125
And yeah, some of these factors that make sense.

806
00:57:38,125 --> 00:57:38,865
Well, that's fine.

807
00:57:38,865 --> 00:57:39,505
That's logical.

808
00:57:39,505 --> 00:57:44,789
But as we've discussed multiple times as a group, who buys cars based on logic?

809
00:57:44,789 --> 00:57:46,710
You know, not a lot of people.

810
00:57:46,710 --> 00:57:47,590
Yeah.

811
00:57:47,725 --> 00:57:53,585
When I think there's just something to be said, like obviously, yeah, if you live in
Wyoming, you got your, Ram pickup props to you.

812
00:57:53,585 --> 00:57:58,505
I don't think they're listening to this podcast, but I will say it's just like.

813
00:57:58,505 --> 00:58:02,825
We have a land Rover, great off -roading vehicle.

814
00:58:02,825 --> 00:58:05,085
gets like 10 miles a gallon.

815
00:58:05,305 --> 00:58:08,115
And, but at the same time it's older than I am.

816
00:58:08,115 --> 00:58:09,825
So it's been around for almost 40 years.

817
00:58:09,825 --> 00:58:11,685
And so it's like, we're keeping on the road.

818
00:58:11,685 --> 00:58:13,617
We've only put up, we probably put like.

819
00:58:13,617 --> 00:58:15,187
5 ,000 miles a year on it.

820
00:58:15,187 --> 00:58:18,317
And then we put 26 ,000 miles a year on our Tesla.

821
00:58:18,437 --> 00:58:26,507
And that's kind of the thing where it's just like, if I think there's more of an argument
to be made to make the city driving a lot of the day to day driving, just your EV.

822
00:58:26,507 --> 00:58:34,377
And then if you want to have a combustion, like, don't know, I disagree with, I think
there's interest in that, but I think for a lot of families, especially on multiple

823
00:58:34,377 --> 00:58:40,227
vehicles, it's just like, I think you can have a much larger indent in the carbon
reduction side of it.

824
00:58:40,227 --> 00:58:41,967
If you have

825
00:58:41,967 --> 00:58:45,919
And I think we're starting to see this, but there's still challenges with the actual
fueling thing.

826
00:58:45,999 --> 00:58:50,952
That whole part of it of actually just making your daily and doing so many more miles on a
fully electric.

827
00:58:50,952 --> 00:58:55,464
then when you want to do something or go off in the matter, go to something, yeah, you got
your big old pickup.

828
00:58:55,464 --> 00:58:58,591
Are you making the case for plug -in hybrids today?

829
00:58:58,591 --> 00:59:02,779
say, as a product designer at OEM is like, you know what that sounds like?

830
00:59:02,779 --> 00:59:05,475
no, no, I don't want to plug in hybrid.

831
00:59:05,475 --> 00:59:13,060
you just did and I'm a big fan of plug -in hybrids because they allow you to do with one
car What you just described to do with two cars?

832
00:59:13,621 --> 00:59:15,275
Anyway, let's move on to charge

833
00:59:15,275 --> 00:59:20,565
I realized I'm coming to the minutiae though that, but yeah, I'll, I'll drive like 200
miles in a day in an EV and it's fine.

834
00:59:20,565 --> 00:59:29,265
I don't want to deal with oil changes and all that crap and unplugging hybrid, but, this
is, this is my own opinions on that.

835
00:59:29,265 --> 00:59:31,595
And like you said, we've already been talking about this for an hour.

836
00:59:31,595 --> 00:59:38,761
So let's get to real quickly the state of EV charging, which I think is something we
probably agree more on.

837
00:59:38,761 --> 00:59:46,883
And Loren, I'm curious on your thoughts of just what you've been seeing in the space and
probably a lot of the conversations you've been having as far as Nevi and actual kind of

838
00:59:46,883 --> 00:59:49,496
the current state of charging infrastructure

839
00:59:49,994 --> 00:59:50,374
Yeah.

840
00:59:50,374 --> 00:59:56,354
So I'll sort of speak to it from like the industry perspective, kind of the B2B
perspective.

841
00:59:56,354 --> 01:00:04,234
And, you know, I'm sort of, I'm calling it, we're moving from charging 1 .0 to charging 2
.0, right?

842
01:00:04,234 --> 01:00:14,874
Like the, if you think about the last 10 years, and I'm not going to mention any names
because I work with all of them as customers or prospects or whatever it is, but you know,

843
01:00:14,874 --> 01:00:18,834
there, there are some charging companies that basically were in

844
01:00:19,228 --> 01:00:23,971
Let's sell chargers to unsuspecting restaurant owners and stuff.

845
01:00:23,971 --> 01:00:31,445
And those chargers go out back behind the building where there's no lighting near the
garbage cans.

846
01:00:31,445 --> 01:00:35,227
three years later, those chargers have cobwebs on them.

847
01:00:35,227 --> 01:00:37,098
The software hasn't been updated.

848
01:00:37,098 --> 01:00:39,169
Matt knows what I'm speaking about.

849
01:00:41,470 --> 01:00:46,033
And people just getting incentives and grants to get these things in the ground.

850
01:00:46,033 --> 01:00:48,134
was a land grab, right?

851
01:00:48,746 --> 01:01:06,266
Now in the last 18 months, we're moving into BP Pulse, Circle K, 7 -Eleven, Pilot, Loves,
Mercedes -Benz, GM, Quick Stop, Quick Trip.

852
01:01:06,266 --> 01:01:08,146
You go down the list.

853
01:01:08,206 --> 01:01:10,762
We're moving from companies that

854
01:01:10,762 --> 01:01:20,028
crossing their fingers that they could sell a lot of chargers and then EV sales would go
up and utilization would go up and at some point they would actually make a profit.

855
01:01:20,229 --> 01:01:33,429
To moving into companies that are like multi -billion dollar companies that already have
physical footprints and stores and profits and adding chargers is a business that they

856
01:01:33,429 --> 01:01:37,361
understand because most of them are in the fueling business, right?

857
01:01:38,036 --> 01:01:39,337
You know, often refers to it.

858
01:01:39,337 --> 01:01:41,238
We're talking about refueling here, right?

859
01:01:41,238 --> 01:01:43,289
Whether it's gas or electric.

860
01:01:43,370 --> 01:01:46,091
And so they're adding a different kind of pump.

861
01:01:46,512 --> 01:01:53,397
And they understand that business and they, they, they don't want to lose money on the
charging business.

862
01:01:53,397 --> 01:01:57,320
But what they're really excited about is getting people out of the car.

863
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,772
Once they plug it in and inside the store.

864
01:02:00,772 --> 01:02:06,856
I mean, we just, I posted something the other day on Bucky's Bucky's is announcing the new
store in Ohio.

865
01:02:07,146 --> 01:02:12,826
It's going to have a hundred gas pumps and 24 fast chargers.

866
01:02:13,446 --> 01:02:19,486
you know, and I've never been to a Bucky's, but I'm told they're like twice the size of a
target store or something like that.

867
01:02:19,486 --> 01:02:20,786
They're, they're massive.

868
01:02:20,786 --> 01:02:22,046
Yeah.

869
01:02:22,046 --> 01:02:22,756
Yeah.

870
01:02:22,756 --> 01:02:33,146
And so we're the second part of it, Chase is that, you know, the first part is we're
moving to a different kind of company and what their goal and reason for getting into the

871
01:02:33,146 --> 01:02:34,580
charging business is.

872
01:02:34,580 --> 01:02:40,774
The second part of it is they already are in the retail business, so they're looking for
incremental revenue.

873
01:02:43,276 --> 01:02:50,141
you know, so this whole thing about how do we get people inside the store is sort of like
the next part of this.

874
01:02:50,141 --> 01:02:52,763
And so we have this, this dichotomy.

875
01:02:52,763 --> 01:03:02,650
I wrote about this in my newsletter the other day of, you know, there's all these people,
the Ram drivers who don't want to be EV and say, I am never going to buy an EV until it

876
01:03:02,954 --> 01:03:06,594
Charge in five minutes, just like I can at the gas station.

877
01:03:07,154 --> 01:03:08,154
But guess what?

878
01:03:08,154 --> 01:03:21,354
All the companies that are now getting into the charging business want you to stay parked
for 20 to 45 minutes and go inside the store and get the Bucky's barbecue and the Bucky's

879
01:03:21,354 --> 01:03:26,674
beaver hat and a lotto ticket and hang out and have a nice

880
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:33,430
and spend, you know, $37 and 52 cents inside the store and, $12 out there for charging.

881
01:03:33,430 --> 01:03:34,010
Right.

882
01:03:34,010 --> 01:03:43,330
So we're, you know, this is what I see is fascinating that we're moving into like a whole
new different paradigm of companies and why they're in the charging business.

883
01:03:43,330 --> 01:03:46,070
And then you add in like Mercedes and Iona.

884
01:03:46,930 --> 01:03:51,290
And they're like, well, we're doing this because we want to sell more EVs.

885
01:03:51,290 --> 01:03:51,450
Right.

886
01:03:51,450 --> 01:03:54,440
And we finally realized that that's what we have to do.

887
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:56,362
We can't just rely on.

888
01:03:56,362 --> 01:03:59,952
You know, unnamed charging networks, right?

889
01:03:59,952 --> 01:04:11,182
But, and the, last thing I will say that that's part of the sort of this charging 2 .0 is
that the dream of high utilization is actually happening now.

890
01:04:11,182 --> 01:04:18,752
Like several of the major charging networks now have 20, 25, almost 30 % utilization on
average.

891
01:04:18,752 --> 01:04:21,462
A couple of years ago was 4%.

892
01:04:21,462 --> 01:04:26,666
Like two or three years ago, Electify America averaged 4 % utilization.

893
01:04:26,666 --> 01:04:33,386
They're now at, by my numbers that I get from a third party source, 27%.

894
01:04:33,386 --> 01:04:42,606
I visited the Electrify America 20 stall center here in San Francisco.

895
01:04:42,606 --> 01:04:43,836
That's an indoor mall.

896
01:04:43,836 --> 01:04:45,746
They have two lounges in there.

897
01:04:45,746 --> 01:04:49,986
We were there at 10 .30 in the morning and there's just cars like lined up.

898
01:04:50,566 --> 01:04:55,882
And there was times where there were a couple of stalls open, but they said

899
01:04:55,882 --> 01:05:00,522
In the middle of the night, rideshare drivers come in by the droves.

900
01:05:00,522 --> 01:05:06,262
know, so that station is probably at north of 50 % utilization.

901
01:05:06,262 --> 01:05:06,762
Right.

902
01:05:06,762 --> 01:05:10,102
So what does that get us to?

903
01:05:10,102 --> 01:05:13,202
They're actually starting to make money, right?

904
01:05:13,242 --> 01:05:18,292
You know, you can actually now make money in, in, the charging business.

905
01:05:18,292 --> 01:05:23,312
And we're seeing, you know, Electify America actually now is testing.

906
01:05:23,434 --> 01:05:30,704
pricing strategies and limiting people to charge to only 85 % because they're trying to
get rid of the lines, right?

907
01:05:30,704 --> 01:05:32,694
And I know Matt can talk about that.

908
01:05:32,694 --> 01:05:43,734
Not a good idea for like an hour, but, but any rate, there's just sort of like some of the
key components we're seeing in sort of like this next version of the charging industry.

909
01:05:43,734 --> 01:05:47,286
It's fundamentally going into the next phase.

910
01:05:48,437 --> 01:05:55,262
I guess Mike, it's really interesting you talk about all that, cause I had a conversation
pretty similar to those lines yesterday.

911
01:05:55,363 --> 01:06:08,374
And I'm not terribly convinced that there's a strong business case for like an electrify
America where it's just what you do, unless they pivot and become like the next generation

912
01:06:08,374 --> 01:06:11,035
of like a pilot or flying J as well.

913
01:06:11,036 --> 01:06:17,140
And that's, I think a bigger business transition than the pilot and flying J's of the
world or the

914
01:06:17,537 --> 01:06:26,752
Adding charging stops and kind of getting that additional revenue from the actual sales,
which to me makes a lot more sense than trying to make, cause we're starting to see like

915
01:06:26,752 --> 01:06:35,726
the per kilowatt hour rate of some of these, EV chargers go up to such a point that it's
just as if not more expensive than buying gas.

916
01:06:35,927 --> 01:06:38,618
And then you're just kind of running into like a worse situation overall.

917
01:06:38,618 --> 01:06:44,091
Whereas like when I wrote it with my wife and our dogs, the car is usually ready before
they are.

918
01:06:44,271 --> 01:06:47,133
And then you're kind of looking at also, yeah,

919
01:06:48,357 --> 01:06:51,850
Kind of what, what is available to you at that place that you stop.

920
01:06:51,850 --> 01:06:59,985
And that's where it kind of something like a Bucky's where it's food or whatever is such a
big benefit then, behind like you're talking about some of these early old ones that would

921
01:06:59,985 --> 01:07:05,389
just be in kind of random places behind old kind of sketchy parking lots and stuff like

922
01:07:06,014 --> 01:07:06,264
Yeah.

923
01:07:06,264 --> 01:07:06,444
Yeah.

924
01:07:06,444 --> 01:07:17,700
And that's, that's, know, to your point about the amenities, like that's why the majority
of the, award winners in the, from the States and the Neve program, are the, you know,

925
01:07:17,700 --> 01:07:21,442
the, the convenience store chains and the travel centers.

926
01:07:21,442 --> 01:07:29,066
Cause those, those people, the state DOTs at the end of the day, they want their legacy to
be,

927
01:07:29,822 --> 01:07:38,206
This money that we handed out from our federal tax dollars to these companies, it's
actually a really good charging experience, right?

928
01:07:38,206 --> 01:07:42,729
Like they don't care about the hardware and the chargers and all that kind of stuff.

929
01:07:42,729 --> 01:07:45,630
They want to make sure that it's a good, safe experience.

930
01:07:45,667 --> 01:07:52,607
Well, and that right there, I think hits the nail on the head for what's what is a
positive direction for Neve dollars and where things are going for the future, as you call

931
01:07:52,607 --> 01:07:57,787
it, like the 2 .0 process is it's about the driver experience.

932
01:07:57,787 --> 01:08:07,347
Finally, you know, not, not just like your point, like, well, let's put something out
there and hope to God someone finds it, you know, and I think that that's a good.

933
01:08:08,187 --> 01:08:11,147
and I just always was just, I just, you shake your head at it.

934
01:08:11,147 --> 01:08:15,267
It's just like, now you're not thinking about how people operate, how humans operate.

935
01:08:15,267 --> 01:08:24,287
And I think that there's a lot of positive points that are coming out of where these
deployments are going to happen and how it will improve upon the actual driver experience.

936
01:08:24,467 --> 01:08:27,597
years ago, when people used to say like, we should just install charging stations at gas
stations.

937
01:08:27,597 --> 01:08:37,527
My response was always not until the technology actually can make it worth being at a gas
station for a reasonable amount of time, as opposed to two hours, for example.

938
01:08:37,887 --> 01:08:40,837
you know, we're now it's like 15, 20, 30 minutes.

939
01:08:40,837 --> 01:08:42,707
It's like, okay, that balances out more.

940
01:08:42,707 --> 01:08:44,347
And if you have something like a

941
01:08:44,545 --> 01:08:52,357
I mean, people that buy gas at a Bucky's, they're not timing themselves when they're
there, but chances are they're there for a lot longer than, it took me five minutes.

942
01:08:52,357 --> 01:08:54,343
It's like, yeah, but you were there for a while.

943
01:08:54,343 --> 01:09:02,563
Yeah, know, hey Matt, there's been some studies on that where people traveling on the
interstates, their average stop is about 27 minutes.

944
01:09:03,063 --> 01:09:10,362
And you know, if you're traveling with children too, you know, and they all got to go to
the bathroom every couple of hours, you're going to be stopping again anyway.

945
01:09:10,362 --> 01:09:13,421
So charge to 80%, even make it faster.

946
01:09:13,421 --> 01:09:14,127
Yeah.

947
01:09:14,127 --> 01:09:14,497
yeah.

948
01:09:14,497 --> 01:09:26,557
To that point, John, I posted something the other day about this and a guy said he did a
road trip in a Tesla where he never stopped for more than, I think he said 10 minutes,

949
01:09:26,557 --> 01:09:32,597
because what he would do is he would get to about 20 % and charge to 50%.

950
01:09:32,597 --> 01:09:36,877
So he would do these and experienced road trippers and EVs know that.

951
01:09:36,877 --> 01:09:39,597
Like, no, you don't charge to like a hundred percent.

952
01:09:39,597 --> 01:09:41,342
You charge in that curve.

953
01:09:41,342 --> 01:09:50,927
And so you stop maybe one or two extra times, but your total accumulated time on the trip
is actually less because you're maximizing the charging curve.

954
01:09:50,927 --> 01:10:01,793
Now Matt, Matt could counter for an hour about what, while that's going to take a while to
get like the next generation of EV buyers to understand and want to do that.

955
01:10:01,793 --> 01:10:03,287
But you

956
01:10:03,287 --> 01:10:14,717
present it in a way that I think actually, if we communicate it in a way that they
understand it in a way that doesn't sound like a deficiency, not even, not even that.

957
01:10:14,717 --> 01:10:23,947
just, again, the whole 85 % thing from Electro America, for example, I I put up something
on LinkedIn and I just said, I said, this is not going to translate well, you know, and

958
01:10:23,947 --> 01:10:30,179
because why people when they're filling up their car, if all of a sudden you're told, at
this particular station and pump,

959
01:10:30,179 --> 01:10:34,059
you can only get 85 % of your tank, they're go, why?

960
01:10:34,059 --> 01:10:35,249
That seems crazy.

961
01:10:35,249 --> 01:10:41,379
Like, they don't understand the chemistry of and the engineering of why they just want
what they want.

962
01:10:41,379 --> 01:10:47,019
So I think there's better ways to communicate to the public what how the technology will
work for them.

963
01:10:47,019 --> 01:10:51,179
That still appeases a mindset of I'm getting everything I want.

964
01:10:51,179 --> 01:10:59,267
Everything from like, you know, again, saying that 80 % of the battery is 100 % on paper,
and then calling the 81 % to 100 %

965
01:10:59,267 --> 01:11:03,847
bonus battery that you can use for road tripping that only can slow charge.

966
01:11:03,847 --> 01:11:12,247
I mean, we can then identify different metrics around like how does the battery function,
but still arguably saying to people, you're still getting what you think it is, which is

967
01:11:12,247 --> 01:11:12,967
full.

968
01:11:12,967 --> 01:11:19,107
You know, I mean, the idea of saying, we just need you to make a concession as a consumer
to only get 80 to 85%.

969
01:11:19,287 --> 01:11:20,547
I'm sorry, this is America.

970
01:11:20,547 --> 01:11:22,487
And that's the last time I checked.

971
01:11:22,487 --> 01:11:28,917
Someone doesn't go to a ball game and say, Hey, can you give me that beer, but only fill
it up three quarters and then have the rest foam.

972
01:11:28,917 --> 01:11:32,452
and watch me go like this, it's like, yeah, give me a break.

973
01:11:32,452 --> 01:11:34,666
This is just not how you communicate product to public.

974
01:11:34,666 --> 01:11:40,106
So what do you think about using capitalism, Matt?

975
01:11:40,146 --> 01:11:50,627
And sure, you can fill up to 100%, but the 80 % to 100 % is going to be $4 a kilowatt
hour.

976
01:11:50,627 --> 01:12:00,347
Well, then you'll have the people that that are willing to justify that have yeah, then
you still run the risk of someone who's just going to sit there and go, you know, and

977
01:12:00,347 --> 01:12:02,687
still piss people off because they're charging to 100%.

978
01:12:02,687 --> 01:12:07,607
I think it's I mean, again, most people that again to chase this point, who's listening to
our conversation?

979
01:12:07,607 --> 01:12:12,327
I think the vast majority of the general public is.

980
01:12:12,327 --> 01:12:13,427
That's that's that.

981
01:12:13,427 --> 01:12:15,047
Yeah, that is the point.

982
01:12:15,047 --> 01:12:19,899
But but I mean, the general public, think if you tell them they're getting what they
expect.

983
01:12:19,971 --> 01:12:22,091
which is I want to fill up.

984
01:12:22,091 --> 01:12:23,841
If you just tell them, yeah, you can fill up.

985
01:12:23,841 --> 01:12:33,321
The concession the automakers then have to make is we can't maximize our EPA rated range
out of the entire battery pack and say it gets 312 miles of range.

986
01:12:33,321 --> 01:12:38,891
In fact, it's the 100 % daily usage is 270 miles of range.

987
01:12:38,891 --> 01:12:42,291
But for road tripping, you can make it 312 with this bonus battery.

988
01:12:42,291 --> 01:12:47,671
To me, that's how you communicate the technology in a way that helps them understand,

989
01:12:48,063 --> 01:12:48,443
you're right.

990
01:12:48,443 --> 01:12:49,933
I don't need three and 12 miles range every day.

991
01:12:49,933 --> 01:12:52,343
But if I do road trip five times a year, I can use that bonus battery.

992
01:12:52,343 --> 01:12:52,783
Okay.

993
01:12:52,783 --> 01:12:54,073
That's a, that's a benefit.

994
01:12:54,073 --> 01:12:55,043
Okay, cool.

995
01:12:55,043 --> 01:13:00,283
I think that's a better strategy for communicating as opposed to saying, Hey public,
please make a concession.

996
01:13:00,283 --> 01:13:01,783
trying to learn all this engineering.

997
01:13:01,783 --> 01:13:05,715
think it's just, I think it's a completely ridiculous way of going about it.

998
01:13:05,715 --> 01:13:18,600
why don't you think the automakers have used like a reserve concept like you have in your
gas car and you get down to E, you know, it's like, okay, you know, you've got to go to a

999
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:23,396
gas station, but you know, you've got like a gallon or two gallons left below E.

1000
01:13:23,396 --> 01:13:25,201
Why don't you think they've done that with

1001
01:13:25,201 --> 01:13:26,560
I think it depends on the automaker.

1002
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:28,776
Yeah.

1003
01:13:28,776 --> 01:13:35,981
maybe I think maybe like the Volkswagen Audi kind of played with some of that a little
bit, think, but for how they can open up battery down the line kind of thing.

1004
01:13:35,981 --> 01:13:41,565
But I think the bigger reason is they were looking at what do people care about most range
anxiety.

1005
01:13:41,565 --> 01:13:42,715
So they go, forget it.

1006
01:13:42,715 --> 01:13:48,550
We're just how far can this energy density of this and efficiency, this battery pack get
you from a hundred to zero.

1007
01:13:48,550 --> 01:13:51,952
Let's throw them that number because that makes them feel better.

1008
01:13:51,952 --> 01:13:56,907
That's that's a misunderstanding of what people were concerned about in the first place,
which was access to fuel.

1009
01:13:56,907 --> 01:13:58,632
Not how far can this thing go?

1010
01:13:58,632 --> 01:14:01,557
So, you know, that's, we're, yeah.

1011
01:14:01,581 --> 01:14:08,021
kind of interesting you mentioned that cause Loren exactly that guy that commented that
they kind of roll in.

1012
01:14:08,021 --> 01:14:14,701
mean, when I, the longest road trip I've done kind of regularly is from Bend, Oregon to
Phoenix, Arizona, which is about 1200 miles.

1013
01:14:14,701 --> 01:14:21,141
And I've done that in a day, think six times twice in a combustion and then mostly in a
UV.

1014
01:14:21,201 --> 01:14:26,513
And when I'm doing that, yeah, I'm like rolling in at a few percent charging it for

1015
01:14:26,513 --> 01:14:29,973
10, 15 minutes using the bathroom, whatever, and then get on the road for another two
hours.

1016
01:14:29,973 --> 01:14:40,513
It does take me longer than when I did it in my Subaru, but I do notice like every time
I've done it, I am definitely more alert by the time I'm rolling in either to bend or

1017
01:14:40,513 --> 01:14:45,413
Phoenix, just cause I kind of have been able to kind of get up and kind of mentally reboot
a little bit.

1018
01:14:45,513 --> 01:14:53,745
and it's not that big of a time difference, but once again, the majority of people aren't
crazy like me and they drive with like other people.

1019
01:14:53,745 --> 01:14:57,725
And when they've done that, like I said, with my wife, you're usually at these places
longer.

1020
01:14:57,725 --> 01:15:03,425
so that Delta isn't as big of a thing, but to kind of what you're talking about, Matt
also.

1021
01:15:03,665 --> 01:15:10,315
Like some of the EVs, like with the Tesla, you can pretty much take that thing down to 0 %
and even go a little beyond it.

1022
01:15:10,315 --> 01:15:16,625
But then like pull star and a few others, once you get to like five or even under 10%,
they, get all sorts of lights going off.

1023
01:15:16,625 --> 01:15:18,255
You have to like charge it all.

1024
01:15:18,255 --> 01:15:21,965
And it's, it's a much different and kind of a much

1025
01:15:23,126 --> 01:15:28,705
EV driving experience, whereas I know with like my Tesla, I can just get it down to a few
percent regularly.

1026
01:15:28,705 --> 01:15:32,535
And I don't even notice a, I can still like floor it and it still has plenty of

1027
01:15:32,535 --> 01:15:36,658
Well, that's confidence in the product ecosystem that they're selling to the public,
right?

1028
01:15:36,658 --> 01:15:41,981
But I, but I think that that conversation, it's good to have that.

1029
01:15:41,981 --> 01:15:46,103
But I think very few people do that in even a combustion vehicle.

1030
01:15:46,103 --> 01:15:48,925
And I think very few people even do the road trip.

1031
01:15:48,925 --> 01:15:53,517
I think just so many people in the U S just fly now that I'm always surprised.

1032
01:15:53,517 --> 01:15:54,978
Like I almost kind of do it for fun.

1033
01:15:54,978 --> 01:16:01,652
Just like, you know what I can, given the industry I work in and stuff, I can do this road
trip, kind of document it.

1034
01:16:01,652 --> 01:16:04,633
And there's some interesting things along the way anyways.

1035
01:16:04,731 --> 01:16:14,196
But I think so many of these people, this could be probably not a good argument for carbon
reduction, but I think most people after like a four hour, like if it's going to be a four

1036
01:16:14,196 --> 01:16:18,818
or five hour drive and there's a flight option, they're probably going to take the flight
option.

1037
01:16:18,818 --> 01:16:21,478
And in some ways that's where the cycle.

1038
01:16:21,478 --> 01:16:23,048
high -speed rail in North America.

1039
01:16:23,048 --> 01:16:24,804
Yes, yes.

1040
01:16:26,013 --> 01:16:27,455
Another future show.

1041
01:16:27,455 --> 01:16:36,320
yeah, I was going to say if, getting people to drive VVs is a pipe dream, I think that is
just like a pipe, delusion.

1042
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:37,081
I don't get it wrong.

1043
01:16:37,081 --> 01:16:42,484
I would love to see that, but that is a unfortunate, unlikely outcome.

1044
01:16:42,484 --> 01:16:44,778
I've got a feeling you want to say something there though, Loren.

1045
01:16:44,778 --> 01:16:49,398
Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, on your, and I joke about this, this often,
right?

1046
01:16:49,398 --> 01:16:54,098
I think there are probably two main types of road trippers, right?

1047
01:16:54,098 --> 01:17:03,458
There's that single driver who's saying I can get from San Francisco to LA in five, five
hours and 20 minutes.

1048
01:17:03,498 --> 01:17:07,558
And I'm going to have a bottle in the car to pee, right?

1049
01:17:07,558 --> 01:17:10,238
I'm not even going to stop, right?

1050
01:17:11,118 --> 01:17:12,633
And then there are people.

1051
01:17:12,633 --> 01:17:13,200
yet.

1052
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:17,002
which, which, my dad had a bottle in the car when I was a kid.

1053
01:17:17,002 --> 01:17:19,453
So I know that that concept exists.

1054
01:17:19,453 --> 01:17:20,293
Right.

1055
01:17:20,293 --> 01:17:29,678
But, and my oldest daughter would do that when she was in school and college in Southern
California, she would only stop to like get gas and she would not do anything else.

1056
01:17:29,678 --> 01:17:35,681
But when we, as a family go on a road trip, I look at road trips completely differently in
an EV.

1057
01:17:35,681 --> 01:17:38,382
Now that you're doing a gas car, I look at it

1058
01:17:39,430 --> 01:17:50,289
enjoying life more and enjoying like the boring trip down interstate five and turning it
into I'm going to stop off and have a nice relaxing breakfast or lunch or stop off at

1059
01:17:50,289 --> 01:17:56,024
Harris ranch and get a nice dead cow, you know, grilled, grilled to perfection.

1060
01:17:56,024 --> 01:17:56,984
Right.

1061
01:17:58,205 --> 01:18:09,364
but, know, to me, I look, I, turn it into an advantage of, know, if we're going to stop
and charge, I want to enjoy life and have a nice breakfast or lunch or whatever it is.

1062
01:18:09,364 --> 01:18:11,498
That's not for everybody though, right?

1063
01:18:11,498 --> 01:18:12,751
That's not for everybody.

1064
01:18:12,751 --> 01:18:13,463
Some of those.

1065
01:18:13,463 --> 01:18:17,883
Loren, what you're describing is how motorists were 120 years ago.

1066
01:18:17,883 --> 01:18:25,983
You know, you had to plan ahead, you had to think ahead, you know, going on a motor trip
was, you know, it was an adventure.

1067
01:18:25,983 --> 01:18:32,443
You know, we've made automobiles so convenient, so easy, you know, it's just fill it and
go and whatnot.

1068
01:18:32,563 --> 01:18:39,965
You're getting back more to the roots of what automobilism, as they used to call it back
then, was all about.

1069
01:18:40,330 --> 01:18:40,630
Yeah.

1070
01:18:40,630 --> 01:18:50,430
And part of it may be, you know, my, if I had gray hair, I would say gray hair, but, is,
know, it's just like, you get a certain point in your life and it's about smelling the

1071
01:18:50,430 --> 01:18:51,290
roses.

1072
01:18:51,290 --> 01:18:51,870
Right.

1073
01:18:51,870 --> 01:19:01,190
And so to me, it's like, if I'm going to go on that 500 mile road trip, you know, that's
really boring down interstate five, I want to enjoy it.

1074
01:19:01,190 --> 01:19:04,360
So stop off with the outlet mall, stop off and have a nice breakfast.

1075
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:05,985
Like whatever it is.

1076
01:19:05,985 --> 01:19:13,355
Yeah, the counter to that is the person who says, if I know it's gonna be boring, I want
it to go as fast as possible, which means I don't wanna stop, right?

1077
01:19:13,457 --> 01:19:14,019
Yeah.

1078
01:19:14,019 --> 01:19:14,680
for everybody.

1079
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:18,193
And that's why I tell those people to get a hybrid or a plugin hybrid, right?

1080
01:19:18,193 --> 01:19:19,483
Like, know,

1081
01:19:21,093 --> 01:19:21,864
All

1082
01:19:23,715 --> 01:19:27,100
Now, I mean, I think if you're doing that regularly, that's for sure.

1083
01:19:27,100 --> 01:19:29,584
thing I mean, I'm kind of curious of everyone on here.

1084
01:19:29,584 --> 01:19:33,058
What's, what's the longest like, right.

1085
01:19:33,990 --> 01:19:40,289
what's the longest, road trip anyone, any of you guys have done in like the past year or

1086
01:19:41,347 --> 01:19:47,587
I did Portland to Chicago back through North Dakota in my Model 3.

1087
01:19:47,963 --> 01:19:49,559
Okay, yeah, maybe that's pretty good.

1088
01:19:49,559 --> 01:19:50,020
Yeah.

1089
01:19:50,020 --> 01:19:55,674
So, and that was one of those ones where it just kind of like, I know I can do it because
I've, you know, but I just, why not?

1090
01:19:55,674 --> 01:20:04,943
You know, and I could have flown, but I actually, did drive that trip to make a point
because when I got to Chicago, I was presenting to the executives from the auto dealers

1091
01:20:04,943 --> 01:20:06,694
from around the country.

1092
01:20:07,055 --> 01:20:15,762
And I made it a point to say, look, what I just did is what you are about to need to
explain to every single person that walks in your store when you have an EV on your lot.

1093
01:20:16,419 --> 01:20:17,819
Like that's what you need to understand.

1094
01:20:17,819 --> 01:20:25,299
And so I did it as an exercise, but to Loren's point, the experience, I, the drive of it
for what it was.

1095
01:20:25,639 --> 01:20:33,449
I mean, yeah, I mean, I did enjoy the idea of stopping and seeing what was around me when
I had to stop and charge, but I also wasn't stopping and charging for, you know, you know,

1096
01:20:33,449 --> 01:20:34,369
40 minutes or whatever.

1097
01:20:34,369 --> 01:20:37,819
I was, I was leapfrogging, you know, like you described Chase.

1098
01:20:37,859 --> 01:20:41,939
So again, all these things are learned elements of what we've had to learn about.

1099
01:20:41,939 --> 01:20:43,747
And exactly what John says, like, yeah,

1100
01:20:43,747 --> 01:20:45,057
You're rewinding 120 years.

1101
01:20:45,057 --> 01:20:51,247
it's like, OK, which hardware store or pharmacy has gasoline added on this rudimentary
map?

1102
01:20:51,527 --> 01:20:56,247
And so it's full circle in this experiential thing of how we're evolving.

1103
01:20:56,247 --> 01:21:01,387
It all comes back to confidence and trust of where you can get your fill up so you can
continue your journey.

1104
01:21:01,827 --> 01:21:03,977
And then what is your comfort around that?

1105
01:21:03,977 --> 01:21:07,167
And while you're doing it, what is around you while you are doing that?

1106
01:21:07,167 --> 01:21:11,423
So it's amazing how it's of come full circle for it.

1107
01:21:11,423 --> 01:21:18,077
is an evolution of what did you say was automobile, automobile, automobile, mobilization,
automobileism.

1108
01:21:18,077 --> 01:21:18,427
Yeah.

1109
01:21:18,427 --> 01:21:21,549
No, it's, it's, it's just a new chapter in that.

1110
01:21:21,549 --> 01:21:27,092
And, it's the human element, the human factor that's involved in that is what creates
these discussions.

1111
01:21:27,092 --> 01:21:31,414
And then in turn, how we translate that as a value proposition to the public.

1112
01:21:31,795 --> 01:21:33,246
yeah, I mean, I don't know.

1113
01:21:33,246 --> 01:21:39,279
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm excited to see if we can get the conversation from here.

1114
01:21:39,405 --> 01:21:47,146
to out to more people in the industry as stakeholders and say like, we need to be talking
about this all in this comprehensive fashion more often, because we're not yet.

1115
01:21:47,146 --> 01:21:58,264
But think part of it, Matt, is sort of connecting the dots with all of this is like, when
people see these announcements from Buc -E's and stuff, LinkedIn just explodes with

1116
01:21:58,264 --> 01:21:59,355
excitement.

1117
01:21:59,355 --> 01:22:02,138
Like, my god, that's amazing.

1118
01:22:02,138 --> 01:22:09,793
And so you think about Pilot and Circle K and Loves and all these sort of destinations.

1119
01:22:09,793 --> 01:22:13,646
And then now you add in the Starbucks with the Mercedes deal and things like that.

1120
01:22:14,408 --> 01:22:23,878
I don't know about you guys, I usually choose, you know, which superchargers to charge at
based on what food options are closest to that supercharge.

1121
01:22:23,878 --> 01:22:30,407
that that's true, there are options because for a long time as a Tesla owner it was, I
have to use that supercharger.

1122
01:22:30,407 --> 01:22:37,513
And so you got really used to whatever restaurant that was, but now you can now have
variances in your road tripping because of how many there are.

1123
01:22:37,513 --> 01:22:40,485
five, there's like nine superchargers, right?

1124
01:22:40,485 --> 01:22:53,247
And so literally, you know, I could choose to skip two to go to the third one because
they've, they had a nicer restaurant option or whatever, or yeah.

1125
01:22:53,247 --> 01:23:02,842
the other, the other importance of what you're talking about there is this is normalizing
EVs and the EV charging experience because people, I hear this all the time.

1126
01:23:02,842 --> 01:23:04,343
I wouldn't know where to go charge.

1127
01:23:04,343 --> 01:23:06,664
And I said, well, of course you don't because you don't own an EV.

1128
01:23:06,664 --> 01:23:07,575
You don't see these things.

1129
01:23:07,575 --> 01:23:09,326
They're not well -marked and whatnot.

1130
01:23:09,326 --> 01:23:18,417
But as they go to rest stops and these different chains have got fast chargers and they,
they see them and they see that electric cars are being charged

1131
01:23:18,417 --> 01:23:21,129
They're all different kinds of electric vehicles.

1132
01:23:21,150 --> 01:23:26,145
That's going to get them thinking, you know what, maybe it's time for me to start looking
at one.

1133
01:23:26,625 --> 01:23:34,282
Well, to that point, it's the complete lack of visibility into there's gas as an option to
fill up and there's electricity as an option to fill up.

1134
01:23:34,282 --> 01:23:35,903
And that electricity is an option to fill up.

1135
01:23:35,903 --> 01:23:38,795
There's still a hundred percent lack of visibility.

1136
01:23:38,795 --> 01:23:42,128
There is no marketing, no communication around it.

1137
01:23:42,208 --> 01:23:48,314
The day I watched Sunday Night Football and there's an advertisement about electric fuel,
I'll go, okay, cool.

1138
01:23:48,314 --> 01:23:51,576
We're finally having a serious conversation about how we can get people to understand this
better.

1139
01:23:51,576 --> 01:23:54,498
Until that happens, I know that we're not getting it right.

1140
01:23:54,644 --> 01:23:55,334
Yeah.

1141
01:23:55,334 --> 01:24:07,781
John, there was a fascinating study done by UC Davis transportation studies department
earlier this year that looked at, you know, kind of what you and Matt are talking about,

1142
01:24:07,781 --> 01:24:11,504
which is recognition of chargers being available.

1143
01:24:11,504 --> 01:24:23,230
And what they found, which makes a lot of sense is that people that owned EVs or were in
consideration mode of an EV, noticed

1144
01:24:23,878 --> 01:24:27,980
EV charging stations when they were driving around town or wherever they were.

1145
01:24:27,980 --> 01:24:35,103
People that were not interested in EVs didn't even see them or the lack of them.

1146
01:24:35,103 --> 01:24:43,767
In other words, it's that old sort of obvious idea, you know, when you, when, when you see
a pink Porsche, then all of a sudden you see like a hundred pink Porsches.

1147
01:24:44,308 --> 01:24:48,970
it's like, if you're not looking for charging stations.

1148
01:24:48,970 --> 01:24:49,480
Right.

1149
01:24:49,480 --> 01:24:51,450
You don't see them even if they're there.

1150
01:24:51,450 --> 01:24:54,104
And so it's this sort of like catch 22 thing.

1151
01:24:54,104 --> 01:24:57,806
is where the industry got it wrong thinking like, well, then we just got to build more of
them.

1152
01:24:57,806 --> 01:25:00,007
We got to, we got to build a trillion of these damn things.

1153
01:25:00,007 --> 01:25:09,702
And my response, UC Davis did a study around this about five years ago now, maybe more,
where they asked those, you know, those who were in the market, is there enough public

1154
01:25:09,702 --> 01:25:13,254
charging out there for you to trust in EV and X percent said yes or no.

1155
01:25:13,254 --> 01:25:18,097
Then three years later, they did the study again, the amount of charging stations in
California had doubled.

1156
01:25:18,097 --> 01:25:19,358
This is all done in California.

1157
01:25:19,358 --> 01:25:21,963
They asked the same question again, are there enough charging stations?

1158
01:25:21,963 --> 01:25:24,624
and the amount of people that said no doubled.

1159
01:25:24,645 --> 01:25:31,710
And so it's like, okay, that's a great data point that tells you don't just carpet bomb
the world with these things exactly how you said it, Loren.

1160
01:25:31,710 --> 01:25:33,411
It is about visibility.

1161
01:25:33,411 --> 01:25:38,303
And if you're actively looking for it, you will go, my God, there's a level two right
there in front of Lowe's.

1162
01:25:38,303 --> 01:25:39,735
didn't even, wow, that's great.

1163
01:25:39,735 --> 01:25:43,698
But most people to your point will just walk right by it because they're not thinking
about it actively.

1164
01:25:43,698 --> 01:25:48,481
This is where somewhere Don Draper is like, hi, have you heard of advertising?

1165
01:25:48,581 --> 01:25:51,233
We can help change the conversation.

1166
01:25:51,233 --> 01:25:52,307
You know, so,

1167
01:25:52,849 --> 01:25:59,289
Well, I think the secondary thing that's really interesting too, is like the infotainment
in a combustion vehicle.

1168
01:25:59,289 --> 01:26:03,019
When you say you're going to go somewhere, it just shows you like, yeah, you're driving
800 miles.

1169
01:26:03,019 --> 01:26:10,189
You're just going to do straight that like it just automatically assumes you're never
going to stop and you figure out along the way where to refuel, where to stop.

1170
01:26:10,309 --> 01:26:19,089
Whereas I think one of the other kind of underrated things for like Tesla and Rivient and
extend is they just have a really good, trip planner.

1171
01:26:19,089 --> 01:26:20,469
built into their infotainment.

1172
01:26:20,469 --> 01:26:22,819
So it does like a lot of this heavy lifting for you.

1173
01:26:22,819 --> 01:26:24,849
And so you don't even have to find it.

1174
01:26:24,849 --> 01:26:31,419
And I think that's just inherently one of the big challenges is like for a new technology
to take off, doesn't have to be just as good.

1175
01:26:31,419 --> 01:26:32,489
has to be better.

1176
01:26:32,489 --> 01:26:41,079
And I think part of that is obviously the fueling experience, but the simplicity of just
like, okay, I'm going to get to, I don't know, Grand Rapids.

1177
01:26:41,079 --> 01:26:42,209
I'm just throwing out some random city.

1178
01:26:42,209 --> 01:26:45,169
And I know exactly where I'm going to stop on those places.

1179
01:26:45,169 --> 01:26:48,643
And I was like, okay, if I want to be here for 30 minutes or whatever, I'll just get lunch
there.

1180
01:26:48,643 --> 01:26:55,183
Well, this is what we're describing as that subconscious trust of, course gas is between
me and 800 miles away.

1181
01:26:55,183 --> 01:26:59,583
It's because it's highly advertised and highly visible and we've had it for a century.

1182
01:26:59,583 --> 01:27:02,563
And the Tesla's approach was again, the McDonald's of charging.

1183
01:27:02,563 --> 01:27:05,253
It was like, okay, on this map, we'll show you where these dots are.

1184
01:27:05,253 --> 01:27:10,123
And when you pull up teach one, it's gonna look exactly the same every time.

1185
01:27:10,123 --> 01:27:12,483
And when you plug it in, it's gonna work the same every time.

1186
01:27:12,483 --> 01:27:15,233
And it's gonna be about the same amount of time every time.

1187
01:27:15,233 --> 01:27:16,963
That's the beauty of what they designed.

1188
01:27:16,963 --> 01:27:24,576
And that's what the lack of understanding from the legacies was they said, we'll just get
these data points, throw them in a map and yeah, you'll figure it out, but we'll call it

1189
01:27:24,576 --> 01:27:27,186
ours because PR is rad.

1190
01:27:27,186 --> 01:27:32,578
And then people that experienced it went, wow, this is not the same looking station as the
last one.

1191
01:27:32,578 --> 01:27:34,298
Then the shape of it's different.

1192
01:27:34,298 --> 01:27:35,999
And I guess it's from this now.

1193
01:27:35,999 --> 01:27:40,010
mean, that's the lack of appreciation for what we're asking people to do.

1194
01:27:40,010 --> 01:27:42,090
And to your point, Tesla knocked out of the park.

1195
01:27:42,090 --> 01:27:44,309
Rivian has a bunch of Tesla alums

1196
01:27:44,309 --> 01:27:45,580
understand how to fix it.

1197
01:27:45,580 --> 01:27:53,684
think it's very interesting that what that Rivian has basically said like CarPlay, same
way Tesla said we're not doing it.

1198
01:27:53,684 --> 01:27:58,525
And I think that's if you can get software right, that is the right approach.

1199
01:27:58,626 --> 01:28:05,909
CarPlay, Android Auto, they are what people have gotten accustomed to in legacy vehicles
because you just mirror it and gosh, my phone's in my dashboard.

1200
01:28:05,909 --> 01:28:09,631
But man, you can create a better experience if you actually get the software

1201
01:28:09,931 --> 01:28:15,578
And that's the part that I think we're still at the beginning stages of how most
automakers are going to understand how to push that.

1202
01:28:15,578 --> 01:28:18,882
And to John's point earlier, they can spend billions and still get it wrong.

1203
01:28:18,882 --> 01:28:21,365
And then they might end up just saying, okay, who got it right?

1204
01:28:21,365 --> 01:28:24,068
We'll wave the white flag and we'll just use what you got.

1205
01:28:24,069 --> 01:28:26,331
I think that is going to, we'll see more of that

1206
01:28:26,927 --> 01:28:31,503
Hey, John, I realize we've already gone over time pretty decently, but I'm kind of
curious.

1207
01:28:31,503 --> 01:28:35,526
You usually, you probably test drive vehicles the most out of any of us.

1208
01:28:35,929 --> 01:28:40,013
And is your daily, is it an electric vehicle?

1209
01:28:40,583 --> 01:28:41,433
This week it is.

1210
01:28:41,433 --> 01:28:43,643
I've been driving a Honda Prologue this week.

1211
01:28:43,643 --> 01:28:47,583
I had an ID .4 the week before that, last week.

1212
01:28:47,743 --> 01:28:56,621
yeah, I mean, I love getting into electrics and trying to evaluate, you know, who's doing
a good job and who's not.

1213
01:28:57,051 --> 01:29:03,602
When you when you're test driving these like how do you ever kind of purposely take on
road trips or like what's the farthest you've ever gone in any of you when you're

1214
01:29:03,602 --> 01:29:04,287
borrowing

1215
01:29:04,287 --> 01:29:09,044
they don't want us taking road trips in these vehicles unless you get permission from
them.

1216
01:29:09,044 --> 01:29:11,798
You know, they have these vehicles that they put in the fleet.

1217
01:29:11,798 --> 01:29:13,440
They want all the media to drive it.

1218
01:29:13,440 --> 01:29:17,144
And then once it hits a certain mileage, they pull it inside and sell it.

1219
01:29:17,986 --> 01:29:22,250
So no, I have not taken an EV on a long

1220
01:29:24,727 --> 01:29:28,317
Well there's an app for that called Chargeway you can just download it'll tell you exactly
where you gotta stop, John.

1221
01:29:28,317 --> 01:29:29,912
I'm I'm just pointing that out.

1222
01:29:29,912 --> 01:29:30,967
I mean, just damn it,

1223
01:29:30,967 --> 01:29:31,787
That's right.

1224
01:29:31,787 --> 01:29:38,127
No, they, you know, usually they want you to not go more than 500 miles in a week.

1225
01:29:38,127 --> 01:29:43,567
And, you know, now you can call the automaker and say, hey, look, I want to take a road
trip in this.

1226
01:29:43,567 --> 01:29:47,107
And nine times out of 10, they'll say, yeah, go ahead and do that.

1227
01:29:47,107 --> 01:29:50,637
But I have not gone on a long trip with an electric.

1228
01:29:50,793 --> 01:29:55,931
Well, you're dedicating time differently than you normally would for what you're
evaluating, right?

1229
01:29:55,931 --> 01:29:57,153
So, yeah.

1230
01:29:57,834 --> 01:30:05,634
Chase, just, want to, since we're talking road trips and you asked you, brought up Nevi at
the beginning when you asked me, which I didn't really address.

1231
01:30:06,214 --> 01:30:16,374
you know, the, one thing that the public still, and even much of the industry still
doesn't understand is the Nevi corridor program, the part of the $5 billion that, that

1232
01:30:16,374 --> 01:30:23,746
will be spent on building out the, the four 150 KW chargers every 50 miles.

1233
01:30:24,330 --> 01:30:29,230
By my estimate, that's only going to add up to 7 ,000 8 ,000 ports, right?

1234
01:30:29,230 --> 01:30:34,650
And so this, you know, Biden goal we hear of 500 ,000 all the time.

1235
01:30:34,690 --> 01:30:42,750
The Nevi corridor programs intent and purpose in what it's going to do is add actually
very few chargers.

1236
01:30:42,750 --> 01:30:50,190
that's not, it's intent is to put them there where nobody else is going to put them out in
the middle

1237
01:30:50,538 --> 01:30:52,538
You know, rural North Dakota.

1238
01:30:52,538 --> 01:31:03,798
So somebody can go from, and I don't know my geography, but from let's say Idaho to, you
know, Wisconsin or whatever, and go through North Dakota and know that there's plenty of

1239
01:31:03,798 --> 01:31:05,968
fast char, they can actually make that trip, right?

1240
01:31:05,968 --> 01:31:14,208
That's its point is to give people confidence that they can take that trip to Yellowstone
that they've been saying they're going to do for 10 years and never do it.

1241
01:31:14,208 --> 01:31:17,198
But they actually know they can do it if they buy an EV.

1242
01:31:18,216 --> 01:31:29,242
You know, so it's fundamentally, it's, it's purpose is to help give people confidence to
buy an EV cause so they can go on the road trip that they've planned for years.

1243
01:31:29,703 --> 01:31:31,594
and you know, fill in those charging

1244
01:31:33,533 --> 01:31:43,158
you know, you'd mentioned before Loren, with the Nevi funding that it kind of had the
unintentional effect of maybe slowing down some of the rollouts of DC fast charging.

1245
01:31:43,178 --> 01:31:44,879
Are you still seeing that?

1246
01:31:44,879 --> 01:31:51,382
Or is it kind of, it does seem like there's being a lot more charging, sites are going in
whether they get Nevi or not.

1247
01:31:51,382 --> 01:31:53,323
They might apply for it or try to get some.

1248
01:31:53,323 --> 01:31:58,265
But I just remember with the original kind of rollout, we were seeing kind of a slowdown
unintentionally because of

1249
01:31:58,442 --> 01:31:58,832
Yeah.

1250
01:31:58,832 --> 01:32:00,342
So there's, so there's a couple of things.

1251
01:32:00,342 --> 01:32:09,492
One is when, when the, Nevi announcement first came out and the program was going, I had a
lot of customers who were like, woohoo, right.

1252
01:32:09,492 --> 01:32:13,802
We're going to get some of that free money, 80 % blah, blah, blah.

1253
01:32:14,242 --> 01:32:28,298
and then when they, when the state started rolling out their RFPs and they were like, this
is really difficult and complex and it takes time and we may not win.

1254
01:32:28,298 --> 01:32:31,198
There's competition, right?

1255
01:32:31,198 --> 01:32:36,638
And there's companies that like know how to file grants and incentive applications.

1256
01:32:36,638 --> 01:32:38,938
They've been doing it for 10 years.

1257
01:32:38,938 --> 01:32:39,798
Right.

1258
01:32:39,798 --> 01:32:43,278
And, and then a lot of them said, okay.

1259
01:32:43,278 --> 01:32:50,428
We're going to move to plan B, which is we actually already have plans to add a thousand
charging stations over the next five years.

1260
01:32:50,428 --> 01:32:52,998
And so we're taking a.

1261
01:32:52,998 --> 01:32:55,318
Neve is nice.

1262
01:32:55,318 --> 01:32:57,078
Not necessary.

1263
01:32:57,078 --> 01:32:57,980
Right.

1264
01:32:57,980 --> 01:32:59,742
And so that's, I've sort of seen a lot.

1265
01:32:59,742 --> 01:33:08,710
mean, there's certainly some companies that are like all in on Nevi, but a lot of them are
like, you like, you you, take, I'm not going to mention their names because they're pretty

1266
01:33:08,710 --> 01:33:18,628
much all customers of mine, but you you look at some of these, these major charging
networks that have these big plans and they're like, we have to these numbers.

1267
01:33:18,849 --> 01:33:20,941
And if we get Nevi funding, great.

1268
01:33:20,941 --> 01:33:23,413
But if we don't, we still have to open them.

1269
01:33:23,413 --> 01:33:24,294
Right.

1270
01:33:24,330 --> 01:33:33,850
The second piece of it, and I just posted some numbers about this on LinkedIn the other
day, and the numbers are still, I don't have a lot of confidence in them, but there are 15

1271
01:33:33,850 --> 01:33:37,450
sites that have been Nevi funded that are now open.

1272
01:33:37,450 --> 01:33:44,350
And I looked at the award announcement date and the open date.

1273
01:33:44,790 --> 01:33:49,298
And the average was about seven months.

1274
01:33:49,298 --> 01:33:50,922
was gonna guess nine, but okay.

1275
01:33:50,922 --> 01:33:51,392
Yeah.

1276
01:33:51,392 --> 01:33:59,512
it's, but, it, but it ranged from like 60 days to almost a year, 357, I think it was for a
pilot site.

1277
01:33:59,512 --> 01:34:04,572
And the 60 days was a New York site that was funded actually under a state program.

1278
01:34:04,572 --> 01:34:07,182
then they called it Neve.

1279
01:34:07,832 --> 01:34:19,512
but, you know, and speaking of New York, they have a rule of thumb that it takes 16 months
from contract signing with the vendor to a site, fast charging site going live.

1280
01:34:19,512 --> 01:34:20,602
Right.

1281
01:34:20,858 --> 01:34:26,721
So far, you know, it actually looks like this is not slowing down.

1282
01:34:26,721 --> 01:34:36,905
But the reality is, think a lot of what has happened is these states all require the
applicant to have pre -negotiated with the utility, that utility can pull the power.

1283
01:34:36,905 --> 01:34:39,666
They've got transformers, they've got all that stuff.

1284
01:34:39,666 --> 01:34:47,575
So by the time they get the award, it's like they've got the construction crew like
sitting there,

1285
01:34:47,575 --> 01:34:48,730
Yeah, yeah.

1286
01:34:48,730 --> 01:34:54,093
trench and literally they can actually get the site done in like two or three weeks.

1287
01:34:54,274 --> 01:34:57,596
Install the hardware, drop it in like EVGO and Tesla do this now.

1288
01:34:57,596 --> 01:35:01,218
They literally bring in the prefab, right?

1289
01:35:01,218 --> 01:35:10,363
They're literally just drop it in and then it's just can the utility connected up to the
grid and do they have the switch gear and transformers?

1290
01:35:10,363 --> 01:35:15,646
And so that's actually the side benefit is that you will

1291
01:35:16,630 --> 01:35:26,536
With an award if you don't have an agreement with the utility that they can supply your
site Within a reasonable time frame the power the equipment and stuff like that.

1292
01:35:26,556 --> 01:35:36,842
So, you know It's still early but it but it seems like that once you get the award and the
contract sign things go like really

1293
01:35:37,649 --> 01:35:38,149
That's good.

1294
01:35:38,149 --> 01:35:42,909
How many states have not still not done Nevi at all?

1295
01:35:42,909 --> 01:35:43,439
14.

1296
01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:44,294
That's what I thought.

1297
01:35:44,294 --> 01:35:47,504
have, New Jersey just opened there as a couple of days ago.

1298
01:35:47,504 --> 01:35:54,484
So we went from the, the, sort of frigid 15 down to 14.

1299
01:35:54,484 --> 01:35:58,774
have to come up with my name for the 14 now, but, yeah.

1300
01:35:58,774 --> 01:36:01,374
So there's, there's.

1301
01:36:01,374 --> 01:36:02,004
Yeah.

1302
01:36:02,004 --> 01:36:02,574
Yeah.

1303
01:36:02,574 --> 01:36:03,914
But, yeah.

1304
01:36:03,914 --> 01:36:10,878
So there and, but there's about five or six States now that are on like phase three.

1305
01:36:10,890 --> 01:36:11,320
Right.

1306
01:36:11,320 --> 01:36:16,020
So we have 14 states that still haven't even opened round one of RFP.

1307
01:36:16,020 --> 01:36:18,530
There are several that are in round two and round three.

1308
01:36:18,530 --> 01:36:18,740
Right.

1309
01:36:18,740 --> 01:36:22,250
So it's a real, like all things in life, right?

1310
01:36:22,490 --> 01:36:23,790
It's a mix.

1311
01:36:23,790 --> 01:36:33,407
Some people are like way ahead and some people I think are waiting for the election and
then they're going to say, yeah, we're not doing this.

1312
01:36:33,407 --> 01:36:37,793
was already trying to reallocate Nevi dollars in other ways and things like that.

1313
01:36:37,793 --> 01:36:40,303
yeah, don't get me started about Florida.

1314
01:36:40,347 --> 01:36:41,438
Hahaha

1315
01:36:42,385 --> 01:36:48,685
Well, I think on that note, we've crossed the 90 minute mark and we're trying to keep it
under two hours.

1316
01:36:48,705 --> 01:36:53,445
So to make sure no one else talks about anything, I think that's probably where we're
going to call it for today.

1317
01:36:53,445 --> 01:36:56,145
But, I just want to say thank you to all three of you.

1318
01:36:56,145 --> 01:36:58,285
This was always a great time.

1319
01:36:58,285 --> 01:37:02,845
And so, looking forward to the next conversation, but thank you everyone for listening.

1320
01:37:02,845 --> 01:37:05,285
And with that, we'll have to do this again soon.

1321
01:37:05,285 --> 01:37:06,265
Thank you

1322
01:37:06,467 --> 01:37:06,798
Thank

1323
01:37:06,798 --> 01:37:07,641
Chase.

1324
01:37:08,543 --> 01:37:09,411
Thanks.

1325
01:37:15,127 --> 01:37:18,589
Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Grid Connections podcast.

1326
01:37:18,589 --> 01:37:28,164
We hope you enjoyed our deep dive into the world of electric vehicles with our fantastic
panel of guests, John McElroy from Autoline Network, Matt Teske of Chargeway and Loren

1327
01:37:28,164 --> 01:37:30,296
McDonald of EV Adoption.

1328
01:37:30,296 --> 01:37:38,220
Remember to check the show notes in today's episode to learn more about each of our guests
and learn more about what they are working on in today's automotive industry.

1329
01:37:38,240 --> 01:37:44,129
We covered a lot of ground today from the latest trends in EV sales and the challenges
facing the broader automotive industry.

1330
01:37:44,129 --> 01:37:53,377
Our discussion on the advantages of plug -in hybrids versus fully electric vehicles, along
with the current status of EV charging and road trips, providing valuable insights for all

1331
01:37:53,377 --> 01:37:54,609
EV enthusiasts.

1332
01:37:54,609 --> 01:38:00,654
And of course, we explore the progress of Nevi funding and its potential impact on EV
infrastructure across the U .S.

1333
01:38:00,654 --> 01:38:05,539
If you found this episode insightful, please share it with at least one other person who
might enjoy it too.

1334
01:38:05,539 --> 01:38:10,625
Your support helps us reach more listeners and spread the word about the exciting
developments in the EV world.

1335
01:38:10,860 --> 01:38:14,208
Don't forget to leave a positive review on our podcast page.

1336
01:38:14,208 --> 01:38:16,653
Your feedback is invaluable to us.

1337
01:38:16,855 --> 01:38:21,003
And until next week, this is the Grid Connections podcast signing