Intro: This is for the sled dogs in the trenches. Real hockey parents, real stories. The Good and the Gong Show. No filters, no sugarcoating, no politics, just straight hockey talk, and the best guests around the barn. Welcome to the Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast.
Alright, boys. Grind them corners, chirp responsibly, and bring that savage fire.
Scott: Alright, everybody. Welcome back to the Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast, the unfiltered podcast for hockey parents. No politics, no sugarcoating, just real talk for hockey parents in the trenches. Wanna give a big shout out to big John Dangles aka BJD for the introduction. You can find his, link in their show notes to Instagram and check out his stuff.
It's it's funny. It's awesome. It's hockey culture at its best. Love it. And we're at episode 56, my guy.
Jamie: Crazy, isn't it? Crazy. Episode fifty six and fifty countries, by the way.
Scott: Fifty six fifty countries.
Jamie: We just hit 50 countries yesterday.
Scott: How about that?
Topher: Right?
Scott: No. It's amazing, dude. And thank you to all the listeners that are that are picking us up. It's your first episode, not your first episode, whatever the case might be. If you told friends about it, whatever it is, thank you so much.
I really appreciate the support.
Jamie: Yes.
Scott: We're we're having a blast. And and I gotta say, all the all the listeners have helped us land their today's guests, which
Jamie: Oh, man.
Scott: Which is which is amazing to have, the one and only Topher Scott, cohost of the Hockey Think Tank Podcast and just an unreal hockey mind and unreal, person who's just so involved in the hockey space, in all facets. Been there, done it for the player, coach, all of it. And now he's just helping educate organizations, parents, players, on on all things hockey, and it's just was an unreal conversation.
Jamie: Yeah. He was great. He was, he he was just as impressive as I thought he would be. You know?
Scott: Oh, yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. I mean
Scott: Yeah. I I mean, like, his podcast, you know, I listened to I still listen to it not as religiously as I was when I was when I was coaching. But, just yeah. It's, it's something that I think anyone that's involved in hockey in any capacity, you know, will get something from every episode. They they put on a they put out a couple they have a short shifts segment that they put out during the week also, which is which is a great, like, very focused topic conversation, ten minutes or less, which, you know, I I think I shared with you, if I'm not mistaken.
It was not I don't think it was this past Friday, the Friday before. Mhmm. Just talking about level, which was something I haven't played for auto, but I certainly want to because it just resonated so loudly. So there's just so many so many nuggets of information that are helpful for parents that are, you know, trying to make sense of things and players who are just kinda going through it. You know?
Jamie: Yeah. No. I think parents I think our our listeners are really gonna like what he had to say. He he, we could have gone with him for
Topher: hours. I mean, like, hours and hours.
Scott: Oh, we did. It was basically two hours.
Jamie: Yeah. But we could have gone folks. This is yes. Well said. This is a long one.
What was it? One forty five, something like that? One fifty?
Scott: Something like that. Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. It was long, but we could have gone for four or five, six hours with him. I mean, question we asked could have been its own show. Oh my god.
You fucked up your boom, didn't you?
Scott: I I literally just pulled the microphone out of the thing.
Jamie: Didn't you do that the other day we were out?
Scott: Yeah. But I feel like the other day, did it on purpose. This was not on purpose.
Jamie: Technical difficulties, folks. Technical difficulties.
Scott: Still figuring it out. Rookie year. Eternal white belt.
Jamie: That's right. Eternal white belt is
Scott: white belt.
Topher: We should not
Jamie: be an eternal white belt at 56 episodes.
Scott: What do you mean? That's not true.
Topher: You're an
Scott: eternal white belt. It's a it's a mindset. It's a way of life, dude. Come on.
Jamie: Get with it. Sorry.
Scott: Wait. If the the moment you think you know everything is the moment you you you start, I don't know, not progressing.
Jamie: There you go. I'm with you. So
Scott: Look at me.
Jamie: Yes.
Scott: I'm cool. I'm hot. Scott.
Topher: Bring in the cats.
Scott: Bring out the femme
Jamie: cats. So good. What what does Austin Powers say? He's like, look. They have they have things shooting at the jubblies.
Scott: Well, you know what? That that one, I don't remember.
Jamie: Maybe maybe he's Oh my god. You know? Oh
Topher: my god.
Scott: With freaking laser beams.
Jamie: Attached to their heads. Dude, he definitely says that, by the way. They shit they're shooting at the Jubilees.
Scott: Oh, behave. So good.
Jamie: All I love China. Oh, bro. Can I just tell you? Dominic still quotes, like, stuff from from those movies. Like, Juno Trump.
Judo trip.
Scott: Who does number two work for?
Jamie: I knew you were gonna say that.
Scott: Give him hell.
Jamie: My name is Richie Cunningham. This is my wife, Oprah. Anyway, but yeah. No. Topher was he was great.
He was he was everything I thought he would be. I I guess he was kinda like like I don't wanna say like the OG us, but but kinda.
Scott: Well, listen. I mean, even in their their their opening, it's like a podcast for players, parents, and coaches to go.
Jamie: And coaches.
Scott: To go.
Jamie: To compete.
Scott: I think passionate player parent players, parents, and coaches. Yeah. I mean, they they they they cover all sides of it. You know? And I think I think well, when they started it, you know, they weren't parents.
I don't think. They're parents now. They they've been, you know, kids. Maybe maybe Topher had kids. I I forget.
Jamie: But They were really young then if he if he did. You know? Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Scott: So it's definitely different angle, and they've got experiences that we don't have. You know?
Jamie: Yeah. No. They both played, like, really high level hockey.
Scott: High level and and, you know, at least Topher, I mean, he was he coached at the high levels, you know, at Listen. Jeff played pro
Jamie: a bunch of years. Right? Overseas Yeah. In The States. But he he was great.
He was I mean, he was great. He he you folks are gonna get a lot out of his episode. He was he was really good. I I I really I really that was one of my most enjoyable episodes.
Scott: Conversations. Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. Him and him and Lavecchio were insane insane interviews.
Scott: Yeah. They're a great duo.
Jamie: Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. You know?
Scott: Yo. Click a big shout out.
Jamie: Yeah. No. They they were great. You you guys are really gonna enjoy that today. Yeah.
So
Scott: Hold on. Just time out real quick. Partners. Partners. I was hockey.
Crazy 10.
Jamie: Crazy 10. Go get your tape, laces, gear, Scott's favorite, the candle, the wax, two different waxes, the yellow handled scissors, which I'm looking for, and I don't see them in in in arm's reach of me. But
Scott: That's unusual.
Jamie: Yeah. I know. It is. You're not wrong about that. They're not they're
Scott: not in your scissor holster?
Jamie: They're not in they're not in arm's reach of me. I'm looking. They are not in arm's reach. But they're they're always not they're never far away. Let's put it that way.
We have multiple around the house. You know? So Yeah. But yeah. Because you
Scott: always need to be cutting things.
Jamie: Listen. You need them more than you don't around your house. I'll say that. Know? I'm telling you.
They we use it for everything. Like, literally everything. It's crazy. They're really good shears. Like, again, I've said this before.
I feel like they need to be in, like, some paramedics, like, toolkit because they will cut through anything. Cut it out.
Scott: I wonder if that that was the inspiration behind the
Jamie: I would think so. Yeah. I mean, they're pretty good scissors. You know? But but, yeah, we love Howie's hockey.
So go use our discount code crazy 10 for 10% off your Howie's hockey gear.
Scott: Yeah. And let's not forget to shout out coach Kevin in hockeytraining.com. You know, if you you got a kid or you yourself, you beer leaguers out there want quicker hands, faster feet, or stronger stride, go to hockeytraining.com. Coach Kevin runs all sorts of, has a library, sorry, of all different videos from stick handling, speed strength agility. They've got virtual stick handling classes, off ice training programs.
You know, I got men's league domination 23. That's what's up. And, you know, like I said, it's not just for kids. So, I encourage anyone to check out hockeytraining.com, and take a look at the, the platform. It's, it's full of all different types of content, all different types of, at home, off ice, training programs, like I said, for speed, strength, agility, stick handling.
You name it. He's got it. So go check it out. Hockeytraining.com.
Jamie: And hockey training h is his Instagram. A lot of good videos there.
Scott: Yes. That is And
Jamie: then we have, Titan Battle Gear. Right? We have Titan Battle Gear, for your, in my opinion, the best base layer on the market for your children. If you're looking for your children to be safe and stylish at the same time, which they will like because the sty is big these days.
Scott: The sty is big.
Jamie: It is big. Titan Battle Gear is your best base layer with the most protection. They are not cheap, but it is worth it in my opinion. We spend so much money on on gear for our children. The least we can do is actually protect, you know, them from from themselves and from from others, especially with all the all the lacerations going on these days in the game for whatever reason.
Everybody should have a a Titan base layer for their child, in my opinion.
Scott: Yep.
Jamie: You can go to titanbattlegear.com backslash Crazy Hockey Dads and use the discount code Crazy Dads 10 for 10% off your Titan Battle Gear.
Scott: Well done, sir. And last but certainly not least, athletic performance insight. And for all of us that have had our seasons wrapped up, I know I have, or Otto has, and therefore, I have. But, I know there's plenty of coaches, managers that are out there listening that are already thinking about next year's team, tryouts, all the things. Don't sleep on video analytics for your team next season.
If you haven't dug into it, take a look at athletic performance insight. Use the contact form to reach out to Eric. He'll happily demo the system for you, tag a game for free so you can see how robust the platform is. You can use it for all ages from the youngest ages of, you know, mites, squirts, all the way up to collegiate athletes. He's done it all with athletic performance insight.
And it'll break down videos. You'll have team analytics, game analytics, player analytics, all the things under the hoods
Jamie: All the analytics.
Scott: All the analytics.
Jamie: All the analytics you can want.
Scott: Yeah. All of them. And then you can also, you know, why use it for video review primarily to go over with your team, your players as as individuals if you like as well. Mention Crazy Hockey Dads, and you get a 10% off a season subscription. And make make sure to check out Athletic Performance Insight.
Jamie: Yeah. Alright. So Otto is done with his season?
Scott: Yo. Came to an end. Came to an end on Okay. On Sunday, and I gotta say playoffs, they had three games. I did not see no.
Sunday? What am I saying? Saturday finished up.
Jamie: Saturday. Right?
Scott: They had three games. I didn't get down there on Friday. They lost, apparently, the game was close enough for long enough, but then the wheels fell off and they lost five one. Then they got oh, I don't forget what the score was. But the first game on Saturday, they got, I mean, they got outplayed and lost.
And then interestingly, you know, like, they they won their last game against a team that didn't seem like they were that that good. I mean, they beat a team. You know, they were competitive, no doubt. But the team they beat on their last game, it was the team that went on to win. And I found that very surprising.
Because I feel like they played much better teams during the season. But, hey, youth hockey, that's what happens. But it's in the history books. 11 new, done and And we are looking forward to tryouts in, like, nine days, eight days, whatever it is now.
Jamie: Is that when your tryouts are? Your tryouts are in nine days?
Scott: Yeah. March 10. Really? Eleventh and twelfth.
Jamie: Ours aren't until, like, mid April.
Scott: Well, you know, the thing is with the younger age groups, they're earlier because they don't they don't go to, like, you know, districts. They're not going to, like, nationals. They're, you know, their seasons, if you're not in the playoffs, are shorter.
Jamie: Yeah.
Scott: Or if you if you win your playoffs, they're shorter too. What?
Jamie: All month ahead. I mean, that's that's more time than I expected.
Scott: Yeah. I guess it makes sense
Jamie: because there's no nationals.
Scott: Yeah.
Topher: You know?
Scott: So they'll be done, soon. And then Right. Yeah. I was looking forward. We got a mountain biking team he's on this this spring.
He's, gonna run track. Gonna run track at, middle school. Gonna do that, and he'll be skating, like, twice a week. Nice. But no no spring teams.
Just No
Jamie: spring teams. Right.
Scott: No spring teams.
Jamie: No spring teams. Gotcha.
Scott: No spring.
Jamie: Okay. No goals. Listen.
Scott: No goals.
Jamie: No goals.
Scott: Great commercial. Do have any financial any financial goals? No goals.
Jamie: No goal. No goals. Nice, man. Good. Alright.
So you you guys are not gonna do, like, all the tune ups and all that crazy shit? You can do all that stuff?
Scott: You know, it's funny. Orly just said to me before we started
Jamie: Dude, listen to it. You're such a fucking money grab.
Scott: She's like, is I not gonna do any tune ups? I'm like, I don't know. I'm pretty sure he just skated this past weekend, and he's got a tryouts next week. So I think, you know, he's kinda tuned up. She's like, yeah.
But, like, we're just down in Florida. We were stuck down in Florida, which is a crazy story, which I know we've since we've posted on social. But We should get into that.
Jamie: We'll get into that after we should get into that after Topher's interview because,
Scott: yeah, we should get into that after. Yeah.
Jamie: But yeah. And and I I think it's a but I also wanna mention something about, like, Brady and Matthew Kochuck, and that'll tie nicely into your story about that.
Scott: No doubt. You know? But, yeah, she was like, he didn't skate that, you know, didn't skate that week or whatever when they were stuck in Florida. I was like, oh, okay. But, anyway, so is he good?
Maybe he'll hop on the ice. I have no idea.
Jamie: Gotcha. Alright. Cool.
Scott: And you've been done, so no news on your end. Right?
Jamie: We are done. We're just kinda waiting for nationals to get finished. You know, Dominic has not been on the ice for, I guess, like, two weeks now. Something
Scott: like that. Feeling well either. Right? He was sick.
Jamie: No. We went up to we went up we went up to Hobart. Oh, So we're gone like over over the weekend. We went up to Hobart to watch to watch Hobart play. Speaking of Hobart just won in their their first round matchup three zero four zero.
Scott: Oh, wow.
Jamie: They start go again Wednesday for round two, then there's a bye, then they come back for another one, and then they go up to Utica. And Marsh said that if they win, he'll come back. If they win in if when they win another national championship, he'll come back on the podcast after it.
Scott: Why? He wouldn't come on otherwise?
Jamie: No. He actually he obviously will. You know? But he said when we win one, he's like, I'll come back on the podcast. I'm like, alright.
Like, as long as you have your as long as you have your lights turned up brighter than you did last time, then we're good. He goes, I'll turn on some lights this time. So
Scott: That was funny. Think someone on social, like, be like, wrote, like, does he do you have electricity?
Jamie: It was one of his it was one of his old teammates or something like that. Yeah. Like what if somebody called That's funny.
Topher: You know
Jamie: you know what was it was it was the it was somebody from like the it was like equipment manager of like Penn State Hockey or was the guy who does like the social media for Penn State Hockey and they saw it and they're like, dude, do you have lights in your apartment? Like, what the
Topher: fuck? That's
Scott: so funny.
Jamie: So so good luck to the Hobart men's ice hockey team going for a four peat for a national championship. So Four peat.
Scott: That's unreal.
Jamie: And good luck to our buddy, Alec Marsh, who's the assistant coach of that hockey team. So Go, Alec. So we went up to watch them one of their last weeks that they had regular season games. It was pretty cool. You know?
Not gonna lie. It was it was a lot of fun. Anthony Duclaire's younger brother plays for the team.
Scott: Oh, yeah. You mentioned that. Right.
Jamie: So so his brother was there watching him actually with his buddy.
Scott: Oh, that's so cool.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. It was cool. His brother came up because it was it was during the the Olympic break. So his brother had off for a couple weeks, so he came up to watch his younger brother play.
Younger brother can play, man. Like Yeah. Good good
Scott: I don't doubt that.
Jamie: Very good player. No question about it.
Scott: That's awesome.
Jamie: But, yeah, so Dom's been off the ice for and then he's been he's been injured.
Scott: Oh, injured. Not sick.
Jamie: That's what I should say. So he didn't skate at all last week. He didn't he didn't go to practice. We still have practice. He didn't go to practice.
He didn't skate all this weekend he
Scott: Is he feeling better?
Jamie: He has a thing called it's called Severus disease.
Scott: Okay. What is that?
Jamie: Severus disease is I'll read you the medical terms it's a common cause of heel pain in growing kids, especially active ones from ages eight to 14. So it's actually not a disease. It's a growth plate irritation in the heel bone. Okay. And it's funny it says that things that can cause the Sever's disease are repetitive running, jumping, skating so it's all inflammation in the heel yeah so it's pain from the back bottom of the heel.
Generally, it's like limping after sports, worse during activity, better with rest, and it's tender to, like, to squeeze the area. So it's it's during so it's funny because we were at my mother's on Sunday for, like, a brunch. We hadn't seen them in a So we went over with my in laws and me and the kids and Dads went over. And he's been, like, injured with this heel issue for, like, probably two weeks now. He's probably won't go to practice this week.
But so he'll be out for two weeks with his heel issue.
Scott: Still practicing?
Jamie: Yeah. We're practicing, like, through, like yeah. We are. Why? Through, like, I don't know, through, like, late March, something like that.
Scott: Through late March? I
Topher: think
Scott: so. Like, the event that they had gone
Jamie: on Yeah. To, like Whatever. You know? But but so so it's funny. It it's a growth plate issue, this this Severus disease.
It's not really a disease. It's just, a condition. But, you know, he stood next to my wife, and we didn't realize this, but they went back to back. He's, like, three inches taller than Nancy.
Scott: What do you mean you didn't realize that?
Jamie: Dude, he's been growing out of sneakers in, like, the last, like, three months. Like but, like, I changed my socks.
Scott: No shit.
Jamie: Yeah. So, like,
Scott: do you need a
Jamie: So that's why he has new skates? His oh, don't even say that. Don't even fucking say that.
Scott: He definitely needs new skates.
Jamie: Don't even fucking say that to me. Well, you
Scott: know he needs new skates soon. Otto told me the other day he thinks he needs new skates. Don't even was like, nah. You're good.
Jamie: Don't even don't even go there with me.
Scott: You need to, like, do some, like, Chinese, like, foot binding
Jamie: thing. Seriously?
Topher: Yes.
Jamie: Can I just tell you? He he the kid grows out of sneakers. Like, it's, like,
Scott: nothing. How's growing out of his skates yet?
Topher: Bro, you you
Jamie: don't understand. Dominic went from, like, clothing wise. Dominic went from, like, a youth small
Scott: Yeah.
Jamie: To a youth large to a youth extra large like that. Like, it was ridiculous. I would say in like a year, he like Yeah. Starts skip skipping sizes.
Scott: Wow. Which Wow.
Jamie: Which is nuts. Yeah. So which is great. But but this is why he's he's having these heel issues because it's clearly, he's growing, and he's pounding on his growth plates as they're you know? So yeah.
So that's what so Dom's is injured with this Severus disease, which, again, is just a a heel issue for kids eight to 14 that are growing.
Scott: Well, I hope he feels better and
Jamie: Pretty painful.
Scott: Yeah. I hope it, like, resolves as Yeah. As quick as possible. Sure. We should get to the interview.
But before we do, I got one thing that I wanted to share real quick. So one of my parents moved out of their house, I don't know how many years ago, eleven years ago, twelve years ago, whatever it was. Went back to the house, and they had all my childhood shit in there. And so I just put aside the things I wanted to keep, and the rest was getting thrown out. So, like, fast forward, you know, like years had passed, and I hadn't really, thought about it.
And then I said to my mom, I was like, you know, as Otto was getting older, I was thinking about my hockey card collection. I was like, mom, where's all my hockey cards? She's like, I don't have them. I'm like, what do you mean you don't have them? I don't have them.
I don't have them. So where'd they go? So then she's like, they must have been thrown out. I'm like, you gotta fucking be kidding me. Like, I had so much like stuff.
Like, I had like my my like high school yearbooks and like not that I'm trying to like look through all of it like, you
Jamie: know. Right.
Scott: But, you know, it's just like my stuff. So nonetheless, Orly this past weekend goes with her mom to like her mother like her mother's storage unit. Lo and behold, all the shit that was I thought was lost was found.
Jamie: All your stuff is there. Right?
Scott: All my stuff was found. So dude, I'm gonna check this out. Hold on. Ready?
Jamie: Any gems? Yep. Let me see.
Scott: Alright.
Jamie: Oh my goodness.
Scott: Can you see it?
Jamie: The Oshawa generals. Was that who is that who is that who Lindros played for? Yep. Oh, that is so funny, dude. Dude, you could probably sell that.
Scott: Well, let me let me just tell you. It's not it's like it's a replica, whatever. I also have my flyer, my Lindross Flyers jersey upstairs. Now I know for a Devil's fan like, you know, fan is like kind of taboo, but like Yes. Truthfully, he was like my idol growing up.
So nonetheless, I found my Lindross jerseys, all my Lindross hockey cards, my signed picture of Eric Lindross. I was like, holy shit. This is amazing. So nonetheless listen. We gotta we gotta get him on the pod.
That's what we need to get on the pod. We can get Eric Lindross.
Jamie: Sure it's probably not that difficult.
Scott: Can tag him. We can get him on there.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure we can figure something out. You know?
Scott: So, anyway, there's a few more gems in there that I found, including my scrapbook from when I went to the when I was there when the Devils won the Cup in 02/2000. Yeah? Yeah. Photos that I took on like a disposable camera. Dude, you know what I have?
I folded up in there. I have like, you know, when you go to a hockey game or any kind of sporting event, they give you like a towel to kinda like wave around.
Jamie: Yeah. Sure.
Scott: I have the towel that they handed out at the '19, '88 or 89.
Jamie: We were, like, 10.
Scott: That's crazy. Yeah. I haven't folded up. It's awesome. Anyway
Jamie: That's funny.
Scott: So Nice, man. I'll drop some more gems, but, yeah, it was pretty cool. I found the the jersey. Now we need to get them on.
Jamie: Nice. Sounds good. I like it.
Scott: Alright, dude. Alright. Anyway, you wanna kick it over to Topher?
Jamie: Yeah. Here we go. Topher Scott, everybody. Hope you enjoy. I you're think really gonna enjoy this interview.
He has a ton of insights, so enjoy.
Scott: Yep. Topher Scott, hockey think tank. Alright, everybody. Welcome back to our next interview with Topher Scott. We've who's someone who's become one of the most respected voices in hockey development.
He's a former division one NCAA player, professional player, cohost of the Hockey Think Tank Podcast and also founder of the Hockey Think Tank platform where he works with players, coaches, organizations, culture, leadership, and long term development. And we couldn't be more excited to have have you on the podcast, Topher. Thanks for joining us.
Topher: Thanks for having me, guys. I'm I'm excited. I I talked to Vex, and he was saying how much fun he had with you guys. So I'm I'm I'm pumped that the bar is high, though. The bar is really high for you guys.
So let's go. There we go. I I
Scott: I would I would find it hard to believe. I'd be on it hard to believe that that dude doesn't have a good time wherever he goes.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. He brings it.
Topher: Well, he brings it. Brings the energy. That's for sure.
Scott: Yeah. He does. Unreal. Anyway, well, listen, thanks so much for joining us tonight. And as we usually start with most of our guests, if you wouldn't mind just kind of sharing with our audience, you know, about yourself, the hockey think tank, and then we'd love to dive into, you know, what life was like for you growing up as a youth athlete and potentially having crazy hockey parents.
We'll find out.
Topher: No. None. There's none none of those out there.
Jamie: Gotcha. Zero.
Topher: You know, it it's it's funny. I so when I started the hockey think tank, it was really just a passion project. I had, you know, my background is mostly in college coaching. I've worked at Miami, Ohio where I got my master's program as a graduate assistant there. Worked at Cornell where I played and then most recently at the University of Michigan.
And throughout, you know, all those adventures of of coaching in college hockey, you know, a big part of our job is recruiting and networking and get to know as many people as we can, particularly at the the higher levels of of midget hockey and then junior hockey. And and it was always really funny because whenever I would talk to people in youth hockey, I was like, man, everybody just seems so stressed. Like, what what's going on? Everybody seems so stressed. And then when I decided to leave college coaching just to to be a little bit more present around the family and not be traveling so much, I got into youth hockey, became a youth hockey coach, and then eventually youth hockey director.
And I was like, pretty quickly, was like, oh, I get it now. Like, I get why people are so stressed. And and so, you know, when I started the hockey think tank, honestly, it was just a passion project to to help educate people about the game. And then it turned into a podcast, and then it turned into a website with some blogs, and then it turned into, okay, how can we actually really make some change and affect some positivity in in the hockey world? And so now we work with youth organizations all over North America, and and and we have this hockey think tank community bringing people together to collaborate and share ideas and and things like that.
And it's been it's been really fun. It's been really, really fun. I I've learned a lot, and and I've gotten to interact, as you guys know, even though there are some crazies in in the hockey world, so many people, the vast majority are just amazing people. And and so percent. This this journey that I've been on has been one of a lot of intellectual curiosity.
It's been a lot of, you know, scratching my head and pounding my head against the table too. But but, honestly, it's, it's been really fun getting this thing off the ground, and, we feel like we're making a positive impact. And and so we appreciate you having us on, you know, between Vax and myself to to spread the word and and, yeah, excited to talk to you guys here and getting your perspective today too.
Jamie: Yeah, man.
Scott: Appreciate it, man.
Jamie: And it helps the game. So it's it's it's all for, you know, all for the greater good of the game. Right?
Topher: 100%. Let's move it forward, baby. Let's go.
Jamie: So tell us about, you know, your youth career. How'd you start in the game? How'd you start playing?
Topher: Yeah. So it's really it's actually a funny story. Like, so my my dad and my mom's brother played college hockey together. It, it was UIC, which is no longer a division one program. It folded, I think, in the nineties, but, that's you know, it's funny.
Like, I give my dad crap all the time. Like, he he ended up marrying his teammate's sister. So I'm like, dude, that is, like, what
Jamie: are you doing in this? Know? Ouch. Yeah.
Topher: I know. Right? But, you know, they swear, like, that, like, you know, my mom's brother set him up and whatever.
Scott: Like Right.
Topher: It's just just kinda funny. But so I I kinda, you know, came out with the hockey stick in my hand. It was just one of those things that was gonna happen because both families were so passionate about the game. And, you know, I was lucky enough. I I think it I I was blessed with some talent, and and because of that, I was able to have some pretty pretty neat youth hockey experiences.
I grew up in Chicago, you know, played for the Chicago Young Americans and Team Illinois. Those were the only two tier one teams, you know, when we were growing up that were out there And was fortunate enough, my my band a major year, we won a national championship, which was which was awesome.
Scott: Wait. Was that was that with your coach with Coach Stan?
Topher: That was with Coach Stan, which
Scott: I I more Well, than happy to
Topher: if you have any questions on him, man, I I I love talking about that that time. And and then, you know, it was funny. I I after that year, was 15 years old, and the Fargo Moorhead ice sharks moved from Fargo, North Dakota to Chicago in the USHL. And, you know, a bunch of my teammates, even though we were young, we kinda went just to do it. Nobody knew what the USHL or junior hockey was and anything.
It was a lot different back then. And I ended up making a team out of tryouts as a 15 year old, which, you know, looking back now is absolutely insane. And I had two of the, you know, least fun years of hockey I've ever had and lost all my confidence and questioned myself constantly. And, you know, thank God. Yeah.
I'm a big believer that your your your support system and the people you surround yourself with is gonna take you where you where you end up going. And and luckily, have a great family and great support system with friends and and teammates and stuff and kinda got out of that rut. Right? And and so, you know, finished off my my junior hockey career with a lot of ups and downs, but ended up getting to Cornell and having a great experience there. Played a couple years of really love low level pro hockey before getting into coaching, but, you know, it all started right from the beginning.
Like, I had skates on at, like, one year old, two years old, you know, walking around the house type stuff and just just fell in love with it right from the beginning. Love at first sight kinda thing.
Scott: That's that's also so what was it like with the you know, so with hockey on both sides, would you was there a lot of, like Wild. I don't know. Like, downward pressure? Like, you know, or, like, what was it what was the dynamic like in terms of, like, you know, I know, obviously, like, we talk about it. You guys talk about it, but, the car ride home and, like, you know, is there like, you know, is there a lot of pressure to do more?
Things were different back then. I get it. There wasn't as much opportunity for this early specialization, so to speak, but like, what what was it like, you know, for you?
Topher: Yeah. I could not have asked for a better childhood, honestly. I couldn't have asked for better parents. I couldn't ask for better friends, better siblings, better teammates, better, you know, bigger family, you know, Jeff and my cousins, like
Jamie: Right.
Topher: And and so much of both sides of the family was was just hockey goo goo. Right? We we just love the game. And so for for me, there was never really any pressure. You know?
I had my grandfather who who, you know, never played, but thought he knew everything about the game, who would always tell me, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. Even though I was playmaker, I'm like, grandpa, like, stop. Like, you're not. You know? But that, like, that was the extent of it.
You know, my parents were always very supportive. The car rides home were you know, they were very positive. My dad had actually a rule in the car ride home that if we were gonna talk about hockey, I had to be the one to bring it up. He would never be the one to to say it first. And, you know, he coached a lot of my teams.
He he never really liked to be the head coach, but he was always there as an assistant.
Scott: And Mhmm.
Topher: So, yeah, I you know, my mom loved to be the manager. My dad was always involved. You know, it it was just I I honestly could not have asked for anything better. And the the really interesting part of that, guys, and and I say this a lot, I do a lot of parent education stuff in in the hockey world. And because I was pretty talented, you know, I can make teams and things like that.
But my parents, you know, I've I've asked them a lot about how they, you know, supported me through my journey as as a youth athlete because I couldn't have asked for anything better. Right? So getting into their heads and asking them. And one of the things that they were very, very big on was because I I had the talent and could make kinda whatever team that I was trying out for, they always chose the coach that was the best person. They really did not care about how much hockey that person knew.
They the the thing that they cared about was, does this person care about my kid? Isn't and is he gonna make my kid a better person? At the end the day, that was their biggest thing that they always look for. And so I was always surrounded by really, really good people. That was and that's always my message to to parents because I get asked that all the time, like, hey.
You know, what team should we play for? Things like that. I'm like, who's the coach, and are they gonna make your kid a better person? That's it. That's it.
That's literally it. You know, there's other ancillary things, but, like, those are one, two, and then everything else is below.
Scott: So so that so that's such an interest I mean, interesting is not the right word. I mean, it makes a ton of sense. You know, in a lot of situations, you know, Jamie and I recently had moved our kids, you know, to different organizations. But, you know, the process of learning about the coach and even getting to talk to a coach if you even, you know, like, kinda what how would you recommend parents kinda go about that? Right?
Because it's like, how much can you really learn leading up to, you know, like, tryouts? And that's like a whole separate topic, like, what are trials nowadays anyway? But, you know, it's like maybe some parents don't even have, like, opportunity. Maybe there's only one rink, you know, like so in terms of, like, just kind of the how how would you how do you advise people to kinda go about that? Like, get the coach on a a call, like, person, ask him a few questions?
Topher: Yeah. I that's a great question. It's a question we get asked a lot, and and I think there's a couple things that that parents could potentially do. Number one, when you think of, like, hockey stuff, go watch a practice or get on Live Barn and watch Like, a for me, that that's everything. Not everything, but it's one of the most important things because practice is where your kids get better.
And so if the coach has a plan and the coach has you know, is bringing energy and and it looks like a really good practice, then that is something that's gonna help to develop your son or your daughter. I think the second thing is, and again, depending on what age, but it seems to be you kinda have to ask this at every level now, but, like, what's your philosophy on ice time? You know? Like, if you're if you're because, honestly, like, if your kid is gonna be one of the bottom kids on the team, and this is a coach that's known for playing one line or playing two lines, then you don't like as much as maybe a good practice is, if you you don't have any confidence because you never play in a game, that's that's never a good thing either. And so what's your what's your philosophy on ice time?
And I think another thing that's really important too is, like, I I tell parents all the time that, like, steer clear and be very afraid of people who tell you what you wanna hear. Like, the people who are kinda like salesman and the people who are gonna promise the world and, like, all these kinds of things. Yeah. Oh, man. I I just don't I don't love that.
I I would rather have my kids play for a coach that's, like, brutally honest.
Jamie: They could for the good, the bad,
Topher: and the ugly. Yeah. I can look you in the eyes and tell you the truth because those are the people ultimately at the end of the day, they're gonna be not just coaches. They're gonna be mentors. They're gonna be sports psychologists.
They're gonna be, you know, so many other things than just coach. And so, again, it goes back to is is this person a good person who's gonna put time and effort into developing my kid more importantly as a person than than as a hockey player. So I think, you know, watch a practice on Live Barn or or get your kid out on the ice with them, know, ask them about their plan for development, ask them about their their philosophy on ice time, and then, you know, is this an honest person that's gonna help my kid become a better kid?
Scott: Yeah.
Jamie: So it's it's funny you mentioned, you know, development and stuff like that. I'm curious. You obviously see tons of kids on the youth level. What do you see is the difference between the kid that can progress and the kid that can't progress? Like, do you see its parents putting too much pressure or, I don't know, them not being able to handle failure?
I'm just curious. Why do you think there are some kids that make it and some that don't?
Topher: It's a great question. Talent.
Jamie: Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's a
Topher: little age appropriate, so I might have different answers for younger kids than than older kids. I think the ability for a kid to learn is something that we don't talk about enough. How can we equip kids with the skills to be able to pick things up a little bit quicker?
Jamie: How can
Topher: we equip them with the skills to be able to to coach them, and then they can take that and transfer it into into what they're doing? I think that's one at every level. Like, I think about the college kids that I've coached, and the best ones, you told them once, and then they did it. You know? Like, they you didn't have to coach them again on whatever it was that that thing was.
So is there a way that we can help kids to learn quicker and learn better, you know, and transfer skills a little bit better? I think that kind of scopes around it. I would say, love yeah, of the game. Love of the game is a big one. I think, you know, like I mean, it's just simple science.
If you love the game, you're gonna wanna work at it more, and you're gonna put more intention for what you what you put into it. And so, like, I think of, like, all the best players that I've been around, whether it was playing or coaching that have gone on to play in the NHL and things like that, the they I always say there's two consistencies with those players. Number one is they absolutely love the game. It's not work to them.
Jamie: They love it. They put in the extra work, not because they feel like
Topher: they have to, but because they want to, because it's a passion for them. Right. And then the second thing is is ownership and accountability. Like, those players take ownership and accountability for everything that they do. And I think it's very, very easy to be an excuse maker.
It's very, very easy to point fingers and blame other people when you don't get the results that you want. And very few of us get the results we want, especially in the time that we want them in. And so you're gonna have to stick it out. You're gonna have to be resilient. You're gonna have to be okay being uncomfortable not getting those results.
And the ones that that make excuses, like, they kinda stagnate, and the ones that that take ownership and look in the mirror and say, you
Jamie: know what? I need to get a little
Topher: bit better. Like, those those are those are the kids that I think end up making it and also have the life skills to be able to succeed in whatever it is they do outside of hockey too. So, like, love of the game, ability to learn, to the ability to be resilient and and handle conflict in uncomfortable situations Mhmm. I I think those are really, really big separating factors. And and and, actually, like, to to a really cool story.
So this is maybe a little bit as you get older, but I remember it was a couple years after I had left coaching Cornell, and they were in the ECAC final four, and I went up to go watch him play. And, you know, I know a lot of people in the NHL, particularly in development and scouting because we talk a lot in the college recruiting process. And so I remember walking into a restaurant, and Scott Young, I don't know if you guys remember that name, but played for the blues, was an Olympian for USA Hockey, and he was the director of player development for the Pittsburgh Penguins at the time. And we had a kid on our team at Cornell Anthony Angelo who was a Penguin draft pick. So he was just eating dinner by himself, and I, you know, came up, and I was like, hey.
Mind if I join you? And we ended up having a great conversation. And and I remember one of the things that he that I asked him was very similar to what you guys just asked me, and I asked him, like, you know, as a director player development, you're you're with the HL team a lot. You're with the NHL team a lot. You're with your prospects a lot.
And I asked him, like, what's the difference between a a player that, like, gets to the NHL and stays there versus one that you kinda can't quite they're up and they're down, and they can't quite figure out how to, you know, stick. And his answer just floored me. It absolutely floored me. And I'm thinking he's gonna say something like compete level or character or, you know, hockey sense or something like that. And his answer to me, he said it was self awareness.
Like, the the people that make it are are self aware. They understand their strength and their weaknesses. They under understand the the role that they need to play on the team. They're bought into, you know, the Pittsburgh Penguin Way, whatever he called it. Like, they they just have a really good self awareness and understanding of who they are and and how they can help our team win.
And I was like, wow. That is such a profound answer. And, you know, the more I read and listen to podcasts about professional and personal development and things like that, and honest self reflection is like such a powerful thing. And we need to be talking about that more, and we need to get kids journaling more, and we need to get kids to really kinda get outside themselves and think about things from different perspectives, get them outside their bubble so they can have a better perspective on where they're at in their journey. And, yeah, I'll never I love telling that story because I just remember being like, wow, that is just such a great thing that kids should learn, you know, just an honest self reflection and how how important that can be.
Jamie: There's a lot of not self aware parents in the youth hockey space.
Scott: Yeah. And it doesn't trickle down. But but it reminds me. Was listening to a podcast, On Purpose, the guy Jay Shetty, and he had Novak Djokovic on. And he was recalling what it was like for him growing up playing tennis, and he had to move away from don't know if he moved away, but he may maybe was within his home country.
But nonetheless, he was he was at the young age of, 10. He was, like, more effectively billeting at, like, a tennis coach's house, and they would and I think it was a she, and I think she would have him listen to classical music and journal, like, starting from the age of 10. Know? And it's just funny you say the, like, the journaling piece because I was like, wow. That's, you know, one of the best, if not the best tennis player of all time.
That's something he started doing at a young age. But it's so interesting that, like, even we're we're talking about this because my son just started middle school this year, so he's in sixth grade. And it's a big change from an educational standpoint and, like, the amount that's expected of them workload and, like, you know, independent work and stuff like this. And my wife and I are like, you know, it's hard for a lot of kids. You know, my kids, you know, does fine in school, but it's not like he loves it.
And I we I just we kept on saying to each other, when did these kids actually learn to learn? Because it's just, like, expected of them. You know? Like, they show up, and it's like they give them, like, the first marking period to, like, you know, ease them into homework. But I'm like, my kid doesn't know how to do this stuff, and now he just has to, like, turn it on.
It's like these kids need like, to your point, you know, like, learning to learn, it should be part of the conversation, you know, and it's it makes a ton of sense.
Topher: Yeah. And I think with that, like, I I I don't know about you guys, but I I'm obsessive right now about creating environments where that stuff can come out with these kids. Like, what what kind of environment can we create to help stimulate that? And and a lot of it and I'm learning this as a parent. You know, I got a an eight year old, a six year old, and a four year old, and and my first impulse a lot of the time is to step in and tell them what to do, you know, or correct them.
And luckily, I, you know, I have a lot of great people that I know in the development world, and like, by doing that, you're almost handicapping them to be able to problem solve because that's what that's what sports and and hockey sense, and, you know, it's it's all problem solving.
Jamie: Yes.
Topher: And life. Right? And so, you know, I I I kinda catch myself sometimes. You know, I'm, like, I'm either, like, in the middle of stepping in or, like, just about to, and I'm like, Toph, practice what you preach. Step back.
And and so, like, how can we create environments? I I think that coaching is great, but I think overcoaching really crutches kids, and I think we're living in a day and age right now where we're probably the pendulum has swung a little bit too far to the overcoaching. And so, you know, we there's the the kids don't necessarily play hockey on the pond anymore, and they're not playing in the street as much as we did. And they don't get that unstructured play where they can kinda do that problem solving and figuring it out on themselves. And so, you know, I think if we think about how do we help kids to be able to learn, a lot of that is just trying and failing and self reflecting.
What's a factious thing? He probably said it on the pub, like learn, adapt, apply, think is what he always says.
Jamie: He did. He did say that.
Topher: He probably said it when he was on here. Right? But it's so true. But like, you can't can't always tell them what to do. You can't always give them the answers to the test and and let them figure it out.
And when you do that, they they can stimulate a learning experience.
Jamie: You know, it's it's so funny that you just said that, because the conversation in my household recently is that dad's doing too much dadding. And Absolutely. Yeah. And and literally and literally this morning. So my so my son, Dominic, who was on when you popped on, has ADHD.
So it's it's really easy to to parent an over parent an ADHD kid. Right? Because they're always kind of, you know, make them because they don't realize it. Right? But they're always kind of doing something.
I don't wanna say incorrect, but you know what I mean. So as a parent, you know, you wanna correct. Right? Because you want them to to learn the right way to do things. But so I've been trying to dad less for that exact reason.
I want him to figure it out. And if he's not going to figure it out now, he'll figure it out in a year from now or six months or two years, whatever it's going to be. Right? So this morning, literally this morning, before I take him to school, he was like, he was brushing his teeth and he wasn't even brushing his teeth well. And I and I and I and I shut my mouth and I I called my wife, on her way to work.
I'm like, Nance, I'm like, I wanted to say something like, but I didn't. Because like you said, they have to figure it out. That's how life works. You have to problem solve. You have to figure it out.
You know? As parents, we like to step in and try to remedy the situation. But like you said, Toph, you're really hampering your child, and you're kind of taking away a learning experience from them that they can actually how many times did you touch the hot stove when your parents told you not to touch hot stove? Right? Sometimes you just kind of have to do it and figure out that it's wrong to then figure out that you're not supposed to do that again.
Right?
Topher: Yeah.
Scott: And they're
Topher: we don't have to be their teachers all the time. Don't have to be their correctors all the time. And I think that's something we all, And
Intro: as parents, struggle with, you
Topher: and I think about, like, one of my daughters, you know, she sucked her thumb until, like, second grade. And my wife and I were like, you know, like, we tried everything to get her to stop. And and then, you know, we go to the pediatrician, the pediatrician was like, she'll stop
Jamie: when friends
Topher: when her friends make fun of her.
Jamie: When they're ready.
Topher: We're like, oh, Yeah, like, that makes okay. Know, like, that makes me way more sense, you know? And we're stressing about it, and we're like, Oh, God. And it's just like, No. But it's funny you say that, Jamie, like, the the ADHD thing.
So I have an ADHD child too, and we just got her kinda tested at at the request of a a teacher that she had. And it was really funny because I think that's becoming a lot more, you know, whether it's we just know about it more or I do think environments kind of, like, stimulate and and and kind of I don't wanna say create ADHD kids, but, like, certainly brings it out maybe a little bit more.
Jamie: No question about it. Yes.
Topher: And and it's it's interesting because I've I've I've done a lot of research on it now, and it was funny when when we met with the doctor who did the evaluation on my daughter and was like, yep. This is your daughter, and this is why. And, like, I remember after she was done, I kinda looked at her, and she was like, you guys have any questions? And I was like, yeah. Is this genetic?
And she was like, what do you mean? I was like, because I feel like you're talking about me right now. But you know? But Yes. But going through that and I do think it's it's actually something that we probably gotta talk about a lot more because, again, like, going down the rabbit hole, the environments that these kids are growing up in and the amount of dopamine hits that they get every day in the the short term, you know, result like, it's it's being developed.
Like, it's something that I think is genetic, but it's also something the environments that they're growing up in are very much developing those tendencies as well. And and so how can we as parents and how can we as coaches with probably a lot more kids that we have than maybe we grew up with having ADHD, and I hate that it's called a disorder. It's not. I think it's a superpower, but it's just a different way of thinking about things. Yes.
I would encourage all all parents out there to to to look into it and and to think about it, and then all coaches do because we're we're gonna be coaching a lot more kids that have those I don't if you call them symptoms or whatever, but, like Challenges. Those challenges, tendencies, whatever. Right. Yeah. I hear you.
It's but but, yes, you're right. Yeah. It's they need to be parented more, but do they? Right? Like, they're they're doing things differently, and so you kinda step in to try to correct, but then you're like and then I think about it again, that self self reflection.
Like, if I was in her shoes, you know, like, am I stifling her creativity? You know? Am I am I stifling her ability to problem solve? You know? Like, am I so while there probably are more moments for correction and and things like that, you know, I guess trying to find that balance of letting them be and figuring it out themselves, but also supporting them and helping them and holding them accountable too.
That's why it's hard to coach. That's why it's hard to parent. Anytime you're
Jamie: doing Yeah, those we're gonna have to do like an ADHD episode, Toph, because I can't even tell you how many because I I'm very open and honest as Scott will tell you about my kids ADHD on our podcast. Right? Mhmm. You know, listen, it's a struggle. You know, he misses drills, you know, because he has a hard time standing still in line.
Mean, listen, it's he's he's if you look up ADHD in the dictionary, there's a picture of my child. He literally has every symptom to a t. It's, like, unbelievable. Because he and he and he is a a spitting image of me in that respect. I mean, I I was never diagnosed with ADHD, but now that I've read so much about it with my with him, I am there's there's no question about it.
Topher: I have it. And my I said
Jamie: to my mother, I'm like, mom, like, why didn't you ever ever have me tested? She's like, well, know, you were fine. We're more concerned about your brother. So she
Scott: just kinda lets you
Jamie: do your thing. Right? You know, so but like I said, we we should probably do a whole episode about that because I think that not especially in the hockey world, in the sporting world. I think that some coaches and teachers label those kids a problem. When they're not a problem, it's just they can't help themselves.
Topher: Right? And the environment that they're in, it brings out
Jamie: Does not current help them. Right? You know, so, you know, so the reason I mentioned, you know, you know, mentioned before, you know, I want to tell ADHD kids, for those of you who don't know, make the same mistakes over and over and over. Right? So as a parent, you want to try to correct it.
But, you know, like you said, are you are you overcorrecting? And I I think the answer to that is yes.
Topher: Yeah. You know? And it did for you or for anybody that's interested in, like, couple books that my wife and I read. One was called ADHD is Awesome. It's great.
Like, really, really good book. Really, really good book. Don't know if you guys have read that. One I'm reading actually right now is Gaboor Mate, Scattered Minds. Okay.
That's one I think maybe a little bit more tailored towards adults, at least is what I've read so far, and it has been a very big mirror to like,
Jamie: I kinda understand myself a little more.
Topher: And another one, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Mel Robbins. Yeah. Sure. Robbins.
Jamie: Oh, yeah. She's great.
Scott: List her podcast.
Topher: And Yeah. She did an episode. She has ADHD as well, and she did an entire episode on it. And, like, I was, like, crying, like, listening to it, like, you know, oh my god. I understand myself.
I understand my kids so much more. My wife's crying because she understands me and her daughter, you know, like so, yeah, just those are those are three just, like, resources or something that I've read Yeah. Listened to that that really had a profound effect on the way that I think about it, and I think really helped me to to understand it and understand myself and my family.
Jamie: Mhmm. That's awesome. Yeah. I have another But I need
Scott: to find those things.
Jamie: He's not he's not lazy by Adam Price. You know? Okay.
Topher: Those of
Jamie: you who have a kid who has ADHD, by all means, you know? Definitely read up about it. I encourage all of you.
Topher: Cool. But, yeah. Was a nice little tangent we got there. It was. Right?
Scott: Well, listen, there's so many I mean, there's so many parents that, like, listen to this that, like, I'm sure, like, you know, have, you know, similar situations and, you know, it's yeah. Or know someone. So in any event, it's good to get that stuff out there for sure.
Topher: Oh,
Scott: yeah. But one one of the things I wanted to touch upon was, like, this time of year, youth hockey, you know, the youth hockey space, the seasons are wrapping up for the the younger kids. The older ones might be going on to play a little longer. Let's call it silly season, if you will. You know, when we have the tryouts that are there really tryouts, you know, the ID skates that maybe you did or didn't get invited to.
Maybe you're shopping for a new club. Maybe you're a parent that's delusional about how kid you're you know, how good your kid is. Boy, it's like it's insanity time around the rink. In terms of, like, you know, let's say there's a family that, you know, isn't a lock for, you know, the team that they're on, and, you know, they're either concerned, they're starting to shop around. How what what what are some, like, you know, pro tips from your perspective on kinda handle, like, all the things that are happening this time of year?
Topher: Oh, boy.
Scott: I know. It's a lot.
Topher: We can have a whole podcast episode. Big, big topic. Yeah. Yeah. Know, dry out dates and how to navigate it and everything like that for sure.
I think two things are really important. Number one is live in the moment, man. Like, yeah, the only thing that you have control over is your actions right now. So yeah. And and and, again, like, Vaxxie probably said it when he was on here with you guys too.
We are very big believers that lessons are caught, not taught. And if we as parents are, you know, riding the drama train and we're, you know, getting crazy and and things like that, like, our kids feel it. They hear it. They see it. You might not think it, but they do.
And and so it is going to affect like, I was on the phone with a guy today, and and he was telling me that, like, you know, it's playoff time right now, but his kids got a bun and this is like a 10 year old. His kid's, like, got a bunch of anxiety because everybody's talking about next year. Like, he can't sleep. He's got that much anxiety. He can't sleep because he's so worried about next year's team.
And it's like he's getting ready for playoffs, and he's a 10 year old. Like, that's a reality of the world that we're living in right now. And and so I think as as parents and even as co like, again, the the message has to be live in the moment. The message has to be be in the present as much as we can. Right?
Like, that's that's idealism. That's not reality. We can't fully do that because there's a reality to where trial dates are and all these things that are happening, but if we can do that. And then when you talk about, like, navigating this thing, honestly, and I would have this advice for anything, but, like, whatever happened to brutal honesty? Just be honest with people.
Like, if you're if you're a parent that, you know, you don't know if your kid is gonna be on the team next year or something like that, go to the coach and be like, hey, just shoot me straight, man. Like, what? And the coach might say, he's in. The coach might say, go find another club. The coach might say, I don't know.
But at least you know. If if it's a coach that you can trust. And then same thing on the coaching side. Be honest with people. Hey.
Scott: Sure.
Topher: You're you're like, wink, wink, nod, nod, you're in. Okay? Stop stressing.
Scott: Right.
Topher: Or like, I I'm not seeing it. You know, I just don't like as a parent, would rather have a coach tell me no now and so I can figure out a better situation than you know, I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, the trial should be in the fall, and it should be an actual trial that that's not reality. Right? So try your best to live in the moment, and and especially in front of your kids. You know, don't talk about the drama.
Don't talk about all this stuff. Let them let them finish out their year as best they can with their teammates, the people that they battled with, you know, throughout the whole year. You as a parent, like, have fun with the parent group that you've had throughout the year. You've gone through a lot of stuff together. And and and just just honesty, man.
Like, honesty. There's nothing wrong with honesty. Like, anybody who plays an angle are the ones that make me the most furious. Like, I would rather tell somebody tell me something that I didn't like, but they told me it straight up than somebody to, like, lead me on, drag me on, try to play an angle, you know, like, tell me yes, tell me no, tell me I don't know. And then I can make a better decision.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie: Unfortunately, I think a lot of coaches are are more worried about hurting people's feelings these days.
Topher: Well, I think so.
Scott: They also hedge. Right? Like, everyone's hedging. Like, what if another player shows up at tryouts? Know?
Or what if I get invited? You know? It's it's it's yeah. It's it's crazy.
Jamie: Mhmm. No. No. True. I'm I'm curious, Toph.
What you know, we have a lot of people that got I'm sure you get this question too. We have a lot of people that write us and say, you know, you know, my kid's trying out for a double a team and, you know, would and they're not sure they're gonna make it, and the coach is kind of beating around the bush like we just said. Would you have that person have, like, a a plan b, a plan c just in case?
Topher: Depends on the situation, I think, for sure. Think but, again, it's gotta be honest with people, you know, like, hey, if if you wanna play on team a and that coach says, I don't know. They're hedging their bets or there's actually gonna be a drought, God forbid, you know, like and and they're they're on the bubble. Right? Sure.
Have a plan b, but tell plan b, hey, my kid wants to play on this team. We're not sure he's gonna make it or she's gonna make it. And and so I get, like, there's we need more of that. Not like, hey, we we really like it here. And then at the ninth hour, we're gonna pull the rug out, and we're gonna go back on our word.
You know, that's that's not the right way to do things. The the people in this business, I think, that do it the right way are unapologetically authentic. They're upfront. They're honest. What they they say, they mean, and they follow through.
Like, the follow through thing, I in youth hockey is a thing that we gotta be a lot better at. There's a lot of promises made, there's a lot of this and a lot of that because the way that youth hockey is today, it's more of a recruiting culture than it is a development culture. Let's be honest. That's not to
Jamie: say that coaches that recruit don't develop because there's a
Topher: lot to do, but there's also a lot that don't. And and and so so much of the emphasis gets put on the recruiting side of youth hockey. And and unfortunately, because of that, we live in an age that's just there's so much stress and anxiety and and doubt and and, you know, with all the things that you guys are talking about right now. So, yeah, I think, again, just like the the the honesty part, like, you wanna have a plan b, that's fine, especially if your kid's on a bubble, for
Scott: sure. Yeah.
Topher: But be honest about it, You know? And I think people people that you want in your corner or in your support system, think will appreciate that. I I really do. Good people appreciate that.
Scott: Yeah. So, you know, you just brought up the the difference between, like, recruiting and development. Can you, like, dive into that a little bit more and just kinda, like, tease that out? Because, like, I you know, you people use the word development, and plenty of people talk about what does that even mean and, like, you know, certain, you know, different circumstances. But it what I was taking away from that was that, you know, there are coaches that are not going to, like, necessarily keep the same core of kids and, like, over time develop them unless I'm misunderstanding, like, the context of this.
But if could you just, like, tease that out a little bit and, like, what's the difference between a recruiting and a development, you know, team?
Topher: Yeah. I mean, again, at the end of the day, like, you know, I've I've when we grew up, there were boundaries. There were borders. Like, you lived in this town. You played for this team.
That that's pretty much there might have been a little bit of leeway for one or two players, but I kinda wish that we would go back to that. There's pros and cons to having open boundaries and having boundaries, but I I think we a lot of the the ills of our game would be solved or at least, you know, they would be better if we just had boundaries and you had a a group to play for. And that's a whole another conversation. When it comes to development, like, what does that look like? First of all, like, I think one of the things that we have to do a better job of as as parents in this sport is how we judge our kids' coaches.
And and what's the criteria we're using to to to to ask ourselves, hey, was this coach a good coach this year, or were they not? And and it's really, really easy because it's black and white to to judge coaches based on win and loss records or my hockey rankings. At the end of the day, when really the the the way that we should be judging coaches, and this is the same for, you know, might be players to to midget triple a players in youth hockey. Number one, did my kid absolutely love coming to the rink every day? If your kid loves coming to the rink every day, then that coach 90 has done 90% of their job, and they are a good coach.
They might not be a great coach, but they are a good coach. Was my kid better at the end of the year than they were at the beginning of the year? And that's a little bit tougher to judge, you know? So you gotta ask questions, you gotta watch practices, you gotta you gotta actually look at your kid at the beginning of the year and look at the kid the next year. Was was the team better at the end of the year than the beginning of the year?
You know? And you can like, if you wanna judge on wins and losses, like, was it worse at the end of the year? Was it better at the end of the year?
Jamie: Was it the same at the end of
Topher: the year based on the competition they were playing? Right? So, like, when you think about how we judge our coaches, I think that's a big part of it, and and we we judge them wrong. We judge them based on wins and losses when the win and a loss really a lot of times is especially in youth hockey, it's talent. It's not necessarily coaching.
Yeah. That coaching is a part of it, but most of it is talent. The team that has the most talent in the NHL is gonna win most of the time versus the you know? And you thought it's even a wider spread. So when when you think about that, like, a big part of that conversation is, like, again, what's the criteria we're using to to judge how how good of a coat a job a coach did for for our kid and for the team this year?
Scott: Yeah. Yeah. That's a oh, go ahead, James. I'm sorry.
Jamie: No. No. I was gonna say we Scott and I actually were have been talking about that recently. Now that kind of both of our kids seasons are winding down, we've been we've actually said that a couple times, Scott, recently. You know?
Scott: Yeah. Just judging judging the like, you know, I somebody even made a comment to me and said, you know, I think your son your I think your son is pretty much the this this person was not a fan of the coaching and blah blah blah. He said, think your son is the same player at Trials as he is now. So now, is that what
Topher: he's I
Scott: was like, thanks, buddy. But, you know, but I I I I point I point that out. I I know. Right? Thanks for the input.
But no. No. No. Listen. Like, the guy the guy consider him a friend, and he was just kind of like, you know, just talking about no.
Listen, there there are parts of what he had to say that I don't necessarily disagree with, and like, I think the parts that, like, where I think things could have been different is, you know, so my son's 11. You're playing you eleven, and, you know, I I think that there was, you know, I'll I'll call I'll call them foundational habits, you know, and just like how much selfish play is out there. You know, like, are are they starting to get a handle of, like, you know, positioning on a breakout? You know, like, it it just some some basic stuff, and, you know, I just are they how hard is the team back checking overall? Like, is it does it seem like that there's they're trying to light a fire under their butts to be, like, first on puck?
So in any event, you know, like so I think in some areas, you know, that that there was improvement with my son specifically, but the team at large, like, you know, there I don't know that a lot of people saw those kinds of changes. But nonetheless, I I maybe I'm digressing a little bit. But, like, I think that those are some of the things that, to your point, Topher, not the wins and losses, but when you're judging whether or not, you know, it was a good season, you know, I I think those are the some of the things that I've talked to parents about. I don't know if you'd agree with that.
Topher: For sure. I wanna I wanna hit that a little bit more when we think about kind of, like, again, judging the coaches, like, from a hockey standpoint. I think there's a couple things that we could and should look for. Number one, do they like you said, do they compete? Like, is this a are they do they do they work?
Do they compete? That is not just gonna help you be a better hockey player. It's not gonna help just help your team, but that a 100% is a life skill to learn how to compete, learn how to win. And, again, winning isn't the most important thing as far as the game and the scoreboard, but winning your battles is, you know, showing up and giving everything you have is a 100%. And and I tell people all the time, like, as a college recruiter, if I ever got back into it, I would never recruit another kid that didn't have an elite compete level.
And the reason why is I think compete is a very, very you know, it's a it's a sibling, to to passion and love for the game. I I don't know very many people that are really, really competitive in in hockey that don't love to play hockey. They're it's usually one in the same.
Scott: And and sorry sorry to interrupt, could you just, what what do you what does elite an elite compete level look like? Just for for yeah. Go ahead.
Topher: It's it's passion. For me, it it is a passion. It's a willingness to show up and give everything you have to a battle. It's a willingness to show up and and give everything you have to to win a race, you know? And and it's, again, it's just like the the passion with which you play.
Because you're not gonna win. Like, again, it goes back to process versus results. You know, you're not gonna win every battle. You're not gonna win every race, but if you gave it your all for it, that to me, that's a competitive person. So that that that I think would be my definition would be, like, pretty close to, like, just passion for the game.
Yeah.
Jamie: Alright. So so I have a quick question to bounce off that. So Scott and I talked Scott and I talked about effort level a lot, right, in competing.
Scott: Sure.
Jamie: So how do you teach that to a kid? Right? And at what age should you really kinda see that come out? Because
Topher: Yeah. I love this question so much. It's like for and honestly, guys, we can talk a whole episode about compete and work on and things like that. I love it. Thank you for bringing it up because, you know, we'll probably go for another hour here, and that's totally fine.
But, like, first of all, I think compete comes out in different ways and different people. So understanding, like, what can like, you look at Alex Ovechkin and Sidney Crosby, the two best players of our generation. They're both extremely competitive people in very, very different ways. Alex Ovechkin's compete level comes out in his passion for scoring goals. Like, he loves to score.
It's how he feels he can help his team win. He doesn't compete really that hard in other areas and at sometimes, you know, like, it's not a knock against him, like, his his gift is is his competitiveness to wanna win by scoring goals. Right. Like, and and he has he's a great school
Jamie: football Yep. Yep. Yeah. Very good
Scott: at it.
Topher: Sydney Crosby's compete level is very different. Sydney Crosby's compete level is in small areas. It's around the net. It's, you know, it's it's what we kind of define compete level as, you know, when we think about compete in at a more macro level. And and Austin Matthews is extremely competitive in in his own way, and and McDavid is is competitive in his own way, and McCar and, like, all these different people.
And so I think really, like, figuring out each kid and what that means that what are they passionate about in the do they love to score? Do they love to be physical? You know, whatever it may be. Like, just kinda doing that. I think that's one thing that that's important.
The other thing that it's that's important is, like, I think and and I've talked to a lot of different people about this, but, like, it is something that can be developed. It is absolutely 100% something that can be developed. Now people are born with different compete levels. There's no question about that. There's a a nature part of this.
Yeah. One of my mom's favorite stories was when I was, like, five years old, and I was like, they had me really young, so they would, like, bring me to parties, like, you know, with their 26 and 27 year old friends who hadn't have kids yet, you know, and I'd be sitting there and I Right. You know, I loved playing Sega Genesis, like, NHL stuff, you know, on Sega back in the day. Totally. And I was playing against one of her, like, friends from high school, you know, that they were still buddies with, and and, you know, he was letting me win, you know, for the first couple periods.
And then the third period, he's like, oh, this kid's actually not bad at this. I'm gonna start trying. And so he started, like, coming back and things like that. And and then I got so pissed off when he started coming back. I went up the TV, and I freaking shut it off.
I walked upstairs. I'm, like, crying. You know? So, like, I think it was it was a little bit nature for me to, like, be a little psycho when it comes to compete. There's other know?
But so there is a nature aspect to it, but, also, it's something that and Vex and I talk about this all the time, and I'm sure you guys talked about it with him too. Like, in his gym, everything they do
Scott: could be
Topher: a there's a score, and there's a result, and there's a winner, and there's a loser. In in in hockey, like drills and small area games and, like, having an ability to have a winner and have a loser, and maybe there's something on the line, you know, when you're working on on skating, you know, if you're doing a station based practice, like, don't just work on going around cones, Do races or, you know, blow a whistle. The first person goes, then you blow a second whistle a second later, and the other person's gotta chase them. You know? Like, put put them in competitive situations, and and they're going to be more competitive.
And so I think, you know, it's it's a little bit more developable, if that's even a word, when they're young. I think as they get a little bit older, you know, the zebras' stripes have been painted on them, and it's a little bit harder to kinda get that out of them. But, like, yeah, when you talk about what's the age, you know, there there's not one. There's you can develop that at the youngest of of ages, and they love it, man. Like, they love it.
We had Jason Guerrero on our podcast. Gosh. It was probably three, four months ago. He works with USA Hockey, and Jay was telling us that they they did a study on eight u players, and and, you know, we always wanna make the game fun. That's a big part.
We have to make the game fun. And so they did a study on AU players. Well, what does that mean? To an eight year old, what does fun mean? What does that look like?
And so they they went out, and they actually, you know, talked to a bunch of eight year olds and seven year olds. And what does fun mean to you? And it was amazing. The number one answer was I LoveToBeChallenged. No way.
That was the number one answer is I LoveToBeChallenged. And and I it's so funny because I feel like, you know, the the the the kinda the way that we think at at a macro level about kids of today. Right? Like, kids of today with quote marks is like, oh, they're soft. They're not mentally tough.
Things like like you hear that from, like, old school coaches all the time, and I hate it because I don't think they are. And this is like a perfect, you know no. Like, they they actually like it. They love to be that's fun to them to be challenged. So creating competition, creators creating winners and losers, you know, we shouldn't be judging people by that, but we should put them in situations where they can learn that skill.
I think it's a skill that can be developed, just like stick handling and shooting and skating. You know? Yeah. So I don't know. We can go down this whole rabbit hole for for hours, but I I I think compete is very linked to to passion for the game.
I think it is something that we can develop in our players, especially when they're younger. And then, again, it's all about the environment that we create. What's the environment we create? And and my cousin, Vex, I don't think there's anybody better at developing that kind of environment that I've ever seen. And I've been with some amazing, amazing coaches and and people who develop kids on and off the ice.
I don't think there's anybody that does it better because of the enthusiasm with which he brings, the, you know, the competition which he he exudes. It's it's really fun to watch.
Jamie: I I think he said something to the effect when he was on with us. I think he said, like, he he it was some, like, game. He's like, and the losers gotta do push ups. He's like, and I want you chirping him while he's doing his push ups. Like, it was so right.
It was something to that effect. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Topher: Yeah. A 100%.
Scott: So one of the other things that I know that you you you talk about often, but just talking about leadership. Right? And and one of the things that, you know, I think happens often and is, you know, it's the best player, you know, that usually ends up wearing, the C. And we my son hasn't been on a team where they've had captains yet or anything like that, but I think that's also something where you see in the locker room, like, are kids that are just natural like, it comes to them more naturally just like compete, you know, and there are kids that are, like, shy or more introverted. But when in terms of, like, helping our kids become leaders, because I think that there's opportunities, you know, all over the place, you know, for for kids to do that.
How how is that you know, when you talk about leadership, how how do you recommend fostering that in kids?
Topher: Oh, man. You guys did your research because you're talking about stuff that, like, I cannot stop talking about. Like, I freaking love talking about this stuff. Well, here here before I get into that, I just wanna say that, like, being at the higher levels of the game, you know, like, still being very involved and in touch with college hockey and knowing a lot of people that are in the NHL at every level from management to coaching to to players. There is an abyss of leadership.
People are craving and starving for player leadership like you would not believe. I just think it it is something that we're not seeing as much. And and so it is something that, you know, if you are a crazy hockey dad or a crazy hockey parent, like, you want your kid to make the next level, you know, like, if they do have some of those abilities, like, those are things that people at the highest levels of the game are looking for. They they wanna recruit and scout captains. You know, they wanna recruit and scout kids who the coaches, you know, can't I call it the daddy daughter test.
Like, if I go to a coach and I ask about a kid's character and and that coach says, I would let this kid date my daughter. Like, that's like, that's that's my daughters myself now. You know, like that. Yes. 100%.
So so, you know, before we get into how to develop it, it is something that is we need more. We need a lot more of it because I know as a coach at the college level, and I've won championships with with every college program I've been at, You can't win without player leadership. You you you just can't. When the accountability and and and the the the passion comes from the room, and it doesn't have to come from the coaches, and you have leaders that can take care and police the room and and and make everybody feel welcome, makes our jobs a lot easier. A lot easier.
So, you know, before that again, before diving into how do we develop it, man, we need it, and we need it bad. And so, like, I asked program directors, like, what's your leadership and life skills development plan? Do you have one? If you don't, you need one. You know?
Not only are the parents gonna love it, it's gonna give you, you know, maybe some less crazy emails because you're you're showing the parents that you care about their kids as kids. Totally. But, also, you're you're gonna develop better leaders, and you're gonna develop develop better players. Like, better leaders usually typically are better players, you know, because they have the life skills necessary to to understand what it means to be consistent and work hard and care about other people and be a good teammate. Like, that that's part of development.
Right? So
Jamie: I don't know. Just talked a lot a void. Toph, why do think there's a void of leadership right now? I'm curious here before you get into it.
Topher: Yeah. That that's a great question. I think a big part of it, if we go again, we'd like zoom out to 10,000 feet. So much of what youth sports has become I don't think this is just a youth hockey problem. So much of what youth sports has become is is centered around the individual.
It's centered around the individual and their journey and making it, whatever making it is. Making it might be making the high school varsity team, making it might be playing in the Olympics one day. And so we talk way too much about hockey, and we talk way too much about the individual journey to making it. We don't talk enough about how to be a great teammate. We don't talk enough about the importance of playing for something bigger than yourself, you know, playing for the logo on the front of the jersey rather than the name on the back.
And, you know, coming full circle to just kind of like the culture of youth hockey and it being about recruiting and it being about no boundaries and stuff like that, it it it creates an environment where we talk more about individual stuff, and we talk more about recruiting and what we can do for your kid rather than to to to achieve the next level rather than, like, how we can make them a well rounded individual and talk about the team, you know, and that's I I think that's a big part of why Minnesota continues to lead the way of developing elite players is because they understand the value of playing for something bigger bigger.
Jamie: Yeah.
Topher: They play for their town, and then they play for the high school in their town, and and that means something to them.
Jamie: All the way up. Yeah. Yeah.
Topher: Yeah. When it means something to you, you're gonna develop a lot more. And so I think the answer to the question, honestly, Jamie, is like it it it I think it's the environment that we've created in youth sports because I know all other youth sports are kinda dealing with this too. It's not just hockey, where it is so much more tailored around the individual's journey to making high level whatever than developing well rounded athlete leader kids, if that makes any sense.
Jamie: Right. So it's a societal problem as a
Topher: I don't think kids are any different. You know, don't think they're any like, kids today are any different than we are, but we grew up in much much different environments.
Scott: Yeah.
Topher: And and so I think that the environment kinda creates us and and yeah. I think that's a big part of the reason why. I'm sure there's other reasons why, but that's that's a big one for me.
Scott: Oh, it makes a lot of sense. I was I was blown away, then I forget his name, but the the kid from Minnesota who just went back and won the the football championship with his high school.
Topher: Mason West. Yep.
Scott: Yeah. Mason West. Yeah. So I I heard yeah. I heard him for a minute.
But, like even and just talking with Sadie also being from Minnesota and, you know, one of the things that, you know, when, you know, I I listen or read about the minute, you know, the hockey, you know, the community model. And as crazy as it might sound, what what got lost on me is, like, just playing with your friends for, like, years. You know what I mean? Like, it was I I would think about it differently. I didn't necessarily think about it like, oh, like, these are, like, my buddies.
These are my classmates. And, you know, with, like, club hockey, you know, there's it's not often, at least where we are, you might get one or two kids that might play for the same organization. It's becoming more and more common. But for the most part, you're not with, like, kids that, like, you're necessarily socializing with as much. Right?
And so I just thought that that was, like, such an interesting piece on, like, how much more invested you can get in, like, the journey, then it's, like, it's, like, less transactional almost in in some ways. You know?
Topher: Yeah. That's a great word for it, transactional. And one thing one thing I caution because, like, we talk about the Minnesota model all the time, and we absolutely love it. We think it's the best way to develop players. And, obviously, there's things in Minnesota that, you know, in other parts of the country, you can't totally take it and copy it and put it.
There's just there's a lot of nuances to that. And and that's where I think and I'm on this, like I I don't even know what to call it, but, like, I think the who is way more important than the what. You can have a a phenomenal coach that, you know, you're playing triple a hockey, you're paying 30 you're traveling all over the place. And and, you know, it's the the absolute craziness of what youth hockey has become and and which we don't want. But, like, if that coach is a phenomenal coach and your kid loves to play and they create a culture where they love each other and their play even though it's triple a tier one and it's crazy and the parents, you know, care about my hockey rankings and all that.
But, like, if the coach is instilling a love for the game in that kid and and teaching them all the things that we're talking about that I think is easier to teach probably in the community model for a lot of different reasons, it's the who. And and and, again, there's people in Minnesota that I would never let my kid play you know, even though he was the model. So it's I think a lot of it, and it goes back to what we what we talked about earlier, like, surround the the best thing that we can do as parents is surround our kids with the best people that we can, The best people that we can, and that comes in all different shapes and sizes. It comes in all different areas, and it comes in crazy tier one triple a nutsness. It comes in community.
It comes in every everywhere. So, yeah, I I I yeah. Putting our kids in in situations and environments with coaches that create a positive experience for them is everything.
Jamie: Yeah. Alright. So you mentioned the Minnesota model, which we talked at length with Sadie about that we love too, and I agree with you. And Scott and I both agree. It can't be be replicated.
It would be nice if it can be elsewhere, but for the most part, you know, I don't think our system is gonna allow that. So I'm gonna ask you a really broad question, and we're not and we can do a whole episode on this too. So if you had a magic wand, how would you fix youth hockey?
Topher: Oh, boy. Yeah. I said it was a
Jamie: broad question. I wasn't kidding.
Topher: That's a broad like, can do anything that I I mean
Jamie: Yep. Anything.
Topher: I mean, there's so much that
Jamie: I would do, but if I had
Topher: to pick, like, a top
Jamie: Yeah.
Topher: One or two
Jamie: Yeah.
Topher: I would I would do I shouldn't say I would do away with my hockey rankings because the reason why my hockey rankings was created was actually really good.
Scott: You know,
Topher: it's it's so people can find good competition for their kids teams, particularly in rural areas, you know, because you you just you know, you might schedule games against teams, and then it's, you know, two ten nothing games, and that's not good for anybody. Right? So, like Right. It was very well intended how it was created, but what it has become, I think, is some of the biggest reasons why we have so much toxicity in our sport because it has created a an environment of super team and recruiting
Jamie: Yes. It has.
Topher: And, you know, scheduling our games where now we have to travel all these places because we gotta play teams, you know, my hockey rankings near us instead of playing teams that are pretty similar to us, but they might be in this not be in the same bracket. You know? Like, you know? So I think I don't wanna say getting rid of my hockey rankings because the people that started it are good people, and and they did it in the right intentions, but it's just become bastardized. So maybe, like, really truly getting people to understand what it is and and to stop the craziness with that.
I think that's that's a big part of it.
Jamie: Is it the right way? Yeah. Gotcha.
Topher: Yeah. Another thing that I would do is is I would ban triple a tier one hockey before '12 u. No such thing. I think it's I I think it's it's terrible. I I honestly think, you know, when we do a lot of research, we talk to a lot of people.
I'm on the board of Ahi now, which is a USA hockey affiliate for for Illinois hockey or sorry. It's the Illinois affiliate for USA hockey. And and I think so much of of what we do is that's wrong is narrowing the talent pyramid way too early. And and we actually don't we've looked at the numbers. We don't really have a growth problem.
We have a retention problem in in hockey. And and so with that, I think a big part of that is just, like, it gets too crazy too quick, and parents are like
Scott: Yeah.
Topher: I can't do this. It's too expensive. It's too it's too stressful. You know? And so I would I would do away with with triple a, you know, and if people would listen, you know, and and actually, I can actually enact it, I would say Yeah.
No triple a hockey before twelve u. Can't do it. You know? Yeah. That that's another thing.
What else would I do? God, there's so many things I would do. But you know what, though? Like, it's a great question, but there's also a lot of really good, you know, in in hockey, and and I think you focus on what we need to change and the problems a lot too. I I think we've come a long way in coaching education.
Think we've come a a long another thing that I would do, you know, honestly, is is I would mandate a parent education course that every single hockey parent at any level would have to take every single year. You know, with the parent education stuff that we do with the organizations we work with, that's the best feedback that we get is is on the parent education stuff. And and because I would say I I would honestly say, like, yeah, it's funny even the name of your guys' podcast. Right? Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast.
I think 95% of hockey parents are are awesome, and they're great. And and, like, the 5% kinda ruins it a lot of the time, but but also that that 95%, a lot of them don't understand. Like, hockey is just different than other sports and how it's delivered to everybody. And so if we can do a better job of, like, educating the parents of of what hockey development should look like, if we did a better job of educating the parents on, hey, if your kid does have a dream, you know, of advancing in in this sport, here's what it potentially could look like. I I think that would be another change that I think would show or provide a lot of value.
It would make things a lot easier for parents
Scott: too. What do so so on that note, you you just got me thinking about when we had Matt Dumicelli on, and we talked about the Scandinavian models and how there's much more transparency, like, year over year with, like, what is the core of this year's in terms of, like, a learning standpoint, like, it's technical or, like, IQ stuff. Like, that sounds like something that would kind of fit in with what you're talking about. I don't know what your thoughts are about what they're doing over there, you know, versus what we're doing here and if that standardization is something that we would benefit from.
Topher: Yeah. So so here's the difference between USA and Canada and and those Scandinavian countries. Because the development model and how we think it should be delivered is actually very similar. Like, a lot of the ADM was taken not taken, but, like, in collaboration with some of those stand Scandinavian coach. I think those those guys at the head of USA Hockey did a phenomenal job.
Like, we just won two gold medals. Big part of that is the ADM.
Scott: It's a
Topher: huge part of it. Huge part. And the NTDP, I think, is a big part of it too in developing the the the the upper echelon of players, but the ADM at the grassroots in in theory is is phenomenal and very much aligns with those countries and what they're doing. Here's the difference. The difference is that the people in Sweden and Finland have to follow that development model.
Jamie: Right. I was just gonna say that.
Topher: And for The United States and Canada, there's a rise in rogue leagues. There's a rise in unsanctioned hockey because people don't wanna follow the thing that develops players the best, you know, for business interests or their kid got cut or whatever. You know, like, how many people are not getting what they want, so they'll try and sue USA Hockey or sue the affiliate. Or they don't like the situation that's going on, and so they're gonna do it differently, and they're gonna go play AAU. Like, in all honesty, like, we we know, like, the what the research says, and we know in every sport how a development environment should be created.
And a lot of what we do, the ADM is is the for me, it's the gold standard. And if you talk to anybody who knows anything about developing players and athletes, the ADM is the gold standard. We don't follow it. We have my AAA and scored AAA. We have super teams and recruitings and open borders as opposed to you play for your town.
You know, we don't have enough resources into, you know, like, the the the governments in in Scandinavian country invest a lot of money into youth sports and creating the model, and then people have to follow it as opposed to here where, you know, there's only so much, you know, people love to to bash on USA Hockey for different things. There's only so much you can do to to to regulate and govern things. So it's funny, like, you think about those countries. We we have that. Like, the ADM and what was created is is amazing.
Scott: Yeah.
Topher: We gotta follow it better, and we'll develop better players.
Scott: Right. Right. And it's interesting because, like, where we are in in North Jersey, you know, and even, Bob Mancini was, you know, sharing with us that, like, this part of the country is is one that is not known for following the ADM. You know? And whether it's, like, you know, like, Massachusetts and, like, somewhere with, like, New England where there's been, like, long standing Yeah.
More of a long standing hockey tradition than in other parts of the country where it's, let's say, newer. Right? They're, like, more bought in, and they're they're following it. But there's you have these pockets where it doesn't exist. And, you know, part of my comment comes from the fact that, like, you know, I coached myself for a couple years when my son was younger, and it was full ice mites, and it was, you know, triple a, and it was my hockey rankings, and it was top 20 in the country, and going to ba ba ba ba ba, you know, and throughout all of that, despite the fact I had to, you know, get certified through USA Hockey, and I, you know, gone through level four, but, like, no one ever said, you have to follow this playbook.
You know what I mean? And it's just so odd that like, you have to do this one thing, but then like, it all goes out the window.
Topher: Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of different reasons for that, you know. I think there's, you a lot of people who think they know better. There's a lot of people who it doesn't fit their narrative of what's best for their kid.
There's people who have business interests and stuff like that. And and that that's an unfortunate part of it. But the model's there, and and and I think people follow it. And and it's funny too because we talk about ADM and grassroots, and and we get this a lot because we very much sing the praises of Minnesota and the community model. But one thing that, like, that I think is important to talk about too because I get this pushback when I talk about Minnesota and the community model.
Well well, what about best on best competition? Like, that that develops kids too. And I'm like, yeah. You're right. And, well, you talk about Minnesota, and and it's it's all the community model.
I'm like, oh, no. It's not just the community model. You don't understand. Their their their fall tier one program is awesome. You know?
And their spring program and summer program for high development is awesome. It's not just community. It's like, they they put best on best competition too. I'm a product of triple a. I grew up in Chicago, and and I think there are so many good things about triple a hockey.
It's kinda it's it's a lot different now. There's probably too much triple a now. You know? Sure.
Jamie: Oh, yes.
Topher: But, like, they're they're the best models, in my opinion, do the best job of creating that balance and and age appropriately for community and then best on best. You know, like, every kid that played in the Olympics, whether it was the women's team or the men's team at some point, it was we're narrowing this talent pyramid, man, and we're we're it's, you know, it's best on best now. It's triple a. It's and and you do. You develop in that environment, you know, provided that the coach is good, and it's a good environment and things like that.
And so the pendulum, like, pendulum, I think, has swung a little too far to the crazy, you know, the little too far in the my hockey rankings type stuff. I think there's gonna be a correction here at some point because it can only get so expensive, and and it can only you can only travel so much and things like that. But, yeah, that's something that I don't think we talk about enough too is, like, you need both. To to to create elite athletes, you need you need both. And and even at, like, you know, at at the might level, at eight u and 10 u, like, if you can do, like, a spring tea spring team or a spring league or something like that and you kinda get some of the best players together and no pressure, though.
You know? It's, like, not like this create like, that's fun for kids too. They they wanna measure themselves against, you know, players that are better than them and see where they're at. You know? There's there's nothing wrong with that, but to to to make the environment where it's like that all year.
And when you start that, like, you guys got kids. Like, when you start that at eight, very few of those kids are gonna love the game at fifteen. Like, if you start that rat race at eight where, you know, it's it's all about the brick, and then it's all about Quebec, and then, you know, it's all about the the super team. The parents are gonna get worn out. They're gonna get burnt out.
They're not gonna love it. Yeah. Kids kids aren't gonna love it. There might be a special kid here and there, you know, or a couple that, you know, just for whatever reason, they they can withstand all of that. But I tell parents all the time, like, what what race are you trying to to win?
Are you trying to win the race to be the best 12 year old? Because you're winning the race to be the best 12 year old. By God, go ahead. Go nuts. Like, go nuts.
Play tier one hockey at eight u. Go play 75 games, you know, but your kid's probably not gonna be the best 15 year old when the drafts are starting, and your kid's not gonna be the best 18 year old when they start going to college. And if that's their dream, right, like, win the race to the right finish line.
Scott: Right. And that finish line is is, I think, a lot further down the road than a lot of people think.
Topher: Yeah.
Scott: You know?
Jamie: The runway is longer.
Scott: Yeah. I mean, like, because yeah. For so many reasons. But even just when we talked to Sadie Lundquist again, you know, she was bringing up some statistics about, like, you know, commits and, like, the ages, like, commits and, you know, just even, the average, like, you know, rookie age in the NHL for those that'll go on to play that, and they're playing in the AHL before they're in the NHL. You know, like, it's not all, like, these Maclan Celebrini's out there.
Right? So you don't have to be the best 18 year old. Like, maybe you need to be the best 24 year old in your environment or whatever the age is, but it's I don't think it's as close as people necessarily think it needs to be. I don't know if you would agree with that.
Topher: Yeah. What what do you mean by that?
Scott: Well, I'm just saying, like, you know, you you were talking about, you know, if you wanna be the best the best 12 year old, you know, then, like, yeah, at eight, play triple a, etcetera, etcetera. And I think for a lot of families that maybe have, like, you know, college, you know, like, say, d one college or whatever the the goal is, I think, like, if you if you take, like, the most the NHL is, like, the pinnacle or, like, the the the highest, you know, it's the highest level you could play, you don't your kid doesn't need to be ready for the NHL at 18, 19, 20. Right? Like, that that that you're gonna be older, most likely. Right?
Same thing for, like, a college, like, you know, in college. Like, there's a lot of older players that are playing in college. The d one college is not necessarily like a true fresh man, you know, that's that's playing. And so I'm just in terms of, like, where that finish line is or what the ages are, I'm I guess I'm just what I'm saying is that I I don't think it's as soon as people, like, you know, you get they get really concerned. It needs to be Yep.
Better sooner.
Topher: Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. It makes yeah. It makes a ton of sense.
And Yeah. You know, the thing the thing that's really important that that parents gotta know is, like, everybody's got a different path, and most paths are the long way. You know? And we even talked to players that, you know, played in the NHL, and, you know, there are certainly some and and quite a few that were the best players all the way through and didn't hit much adversity. They were just kinda on that path.
But most of the players aren't like that. You know? Like, we we have people on our podcast, as I'm sure you guys have, that are NHL players that got cut at 15 years old. You know? And everybody thinks that they need to have things figured out at nine and 10 nowadays or else their their career's over, but it's like that's not everybody has their own path.
We like, we did a a study. It was a couple years ago on all the American born players that went to the NHL, and one
Jamie: of the things that
Topher: we looked at was draft year.
Scott: Yeah.
Topher: And in the NHL, for that year, for all 288 American born players, the most amount of players that were playing were drafted in the first round, which certainly makes a lot of sense. The second most players were undrafted players. Not second round.
Scott: Not third
Topher: round. It was undrafted players. Now, there's more undrafted players than drafted players, so there's a little bit of a numerical advantage to that. But
Jamie: But still yeah.
Topher: But right? But there is something very good in development about learning how to persevere through not being the best player all the way through. There there's a lot of kids, and again, coming from being a former college coach and and doing a lot of recruiting and talking to a lot of scouts, like, a lot of times the best players at 15 aren't the best at 17. The best at 17 aren't the best at 19, aren't the best at 21. And and a big part of that, I think, is number one complacency.
You know? Like, let's say your kid that gets drafted at 15 into a junior draft in the CHL or in the USHL. A lot of those kids, I made it, man. I made it. And then there's a lot of kids who didn't get drafted, who will get pissed off, and they're like, okay.
I gotta work. And then those kids pass those kids Yes. So much. So incredibly much. And and so just understanding that the the path is different for everybody.
288 players from America that played in the NHL a couple years ago. There was not one the same path. Every single path was different. And then the other thing with that guys, and I and you guys probably talk about a lot too, is like one of the worst things that we can do as parents or as players if we have this dream is to compare our journey to somebody else's journey. That's such like a from a mental health standpoint and and from just even from your own development standpoint, you know, it's so easy with social media nowadays and and Instagram and stuff to to kinda, like, compare yourself to somebody else.
And and and then the only thing we should be comparing ourselves is was I a little bit better today than I was yesterday. Am I treating people a little bit better today? Did I learn something, you know, today that's gonna make me better? Did I put in a better effort or the same effort that I put in yesterday? And and we get caught up, you know, in all these ranking reports, websites, and the MyHockey rankings, and, you know, the the social media with people putting up there that they, you know, made this team or they got this commitment or they got drafted or whatever.
And a lot of times kids will see that and they feel like especially if they think they're better than that kid, you know, they feel like somebody's out to get them or and then that that message is coming from the parents too, and and they're focusing on the things that are outside of their control. Like, if you wanna derail your kid's career, get them to focus on things they can't control. You wanna put them on the path to being elite at whatever they do, help them to understand the power of focusing on the things that you can control. That that's it. You know?
And and so it's really easy to to to kinda get lost in in that. And it's I think it's easier to focus on the things that that we can't control. It's easier to point a finger. It's easier to make excuses than it is to take accountability and ownership for things when we don't get the results. But but, again, like those, if we can create environments and we can live that ourselves and and lessons are caught, not taught where we look in the mirror and we kids buy a byproduct, they're gonna look at themselves in the mirror.
We don't make excuses. So by as a byproduct, the kids aren't gonna make it. We take accountability for our failures. Well, kids are gonna take account they they do they take after our our notes. Yep.
I don't even know what we were talking about, guys, but, like, this this stuff, man, like, I and and I've seen it, you know, I've lived it. I've I've lived it as a player, as somebody five foot four, and and at times, threw myself pity parties and made excuses and pointed fingers, but I'm very lucky that I had parents who didn't allow me to do that. Yeah. You know, when I when I was doing that, no. No.
No. No. No. What's a positive we can take out of this? That's something that my parents told me all the time in the tough time.
What's a positive we can take out of this? What's something we can learn from it? Let's focus on the things that we can do to get better and make sure that that never happens again. And and I don't know if that's the norm nowadays. I feel like the norm I shouldn't say that.
It's
Jamie: easier
Topher: to make excuses than it is to take accountability.
Scott: Yeah. Oh, I think I even got it from your podcast. Sorry, James. But one one of the and it stuck with me, and I've I've said it a bunch of times, but the the the saying that, comparison is the thief of all joy. Yeah.
Something along those lines. I think I heard it on you guys talking about that one.
Topher: That's not our quote. That's somebody else's quote. It's actually yeah. I can't remember whose quote it was.
Scott: But that was a good Yeah. That's a good one.
Topher: I can't take credit for that,
Jamie: though. Read that.
Topher: You know, it's it's funny, Phil.
Jamie: If you mentioned, you know, you mentioned your height. So so my so my son Dominic is listen, his dad's five five, his mom's five one. Like, you know, listen, if he's five seven, I'll be thrilled. Right? You know, so so
Topher: so breaking the family tree there.
Jamie: Yeah. Well, listen, I hope it I hope it happens. Right? Fingers crossed. But so it's funny because as when he was younger, you know, I used to we used to listen, you know, to to that think tank, you know, when we were kind of in the car and I would I would tell him about you, and I'd say, you know, Dom, I say, you know, he's not super tall.
I said, and look what he's done. You know? So, like, you and Cole Caulfield were, like, his kind of go tos as far as, like, you know, what he can do. So I guess my, well, more of a statement, I guess. Alright.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts, you know, on what would you say to the kids out there that are like, oh my god. You know? You know, I'm not a hundred and fifty five pound 12 year old. You know? What am I supposed to do?
People think that their size is gonna hamper them. So what would you say to those kids?
Topher: Oh, man. I can't you're asking
Jamie: me questions, guys. I'm like, we could
Topher: do a whole podcast episode on at the end of the day. I mean, like, just like I said, you gotta focus on the things you can control. Yeah. You can't control your height. You can't control your weight.
I mean, I guess you can control your weight a little bit, but, you know, you can't you can't control the, you know, the the blueprint that God gave us, you know, in into just kinda who we are physically. For me and, this kinda goes back to I I have the greatest hockey parents in the world. Like, I don't make it where I get to without them. And their biggest thing for me was always looking for the positive in a situation. And I never thought of being small as a disadvantage.
The way that I grew up, I always it was an advantage. If I get in the corner with a big guy, you know, I'm gonna use my agility, and I'm gonna use my leverage and all of that. Right? And so I always thought it was an advantage. Everybody else thought it was a disadvantage.
I didn't. And I truly believe that. Like, yes, there are you know, it's nice to be big and have big reach and,
Jamie: you know, you
Topher: could probably skate faster from a to b, you know, with with longer legs and stuff. But there's also a lot of things that I can do better than a bigger guy, you know, in tight area, and the game of hockey is in tight areas. And so that's one thing. Like, it's not a disadvantage. It really isn't.
And and, again, it's all what you believe. If I truly believe that it's an advantage to be smaller. The other thing that I would say too is I think every every small player needs to have an elite compete level. And and I little man syndrome. You have to go into a corner with the belief that I'm coming out with the puck, And I had that.
And again, nate nurture or sorry, nature wise, I I I do have a little bit of a screw loose when it comes to being competitive. But but honestly, I think it makes you better. Like, having that quote unquote disadvantage of power and strength and reach. Yeah. We're gonna have to work a little hard to win that battle.
Yeah. We're gonna have to work a little smarter to win that battle. But you know what? I'm gonna do whatever. I'll I'll gnaw your freaking leg off to win that battle.
You know? And and so, again, it goes back to I think it's an advantage to be smaller, especially when you're younger because you have to be smarter and you have to be more competitive to to win battles at that age. And and and we talk about this a lot, and it's something like if you talk to college coaches and you talk to especially junior scouts because they're recruited like, they're watching kids younger. I think it's an advantage, and a lot of people do, to being a late bloomer physically or being small because you have to figure out how to play the game without being physically dominant. Because at some point in your hockey career, you're not gonna be physically dominant.
And we've how many times have you guys seen it where you have a kid at eight, nine, 10 years old who's bigger and faster and stronger than everybody else? And the way that they are developed or, like, the the praise that they get is for skating in a straight line and just being bigger and faster and stronger than everybody else. And they score goals because of it. And there's a ceiling when you have a kid and you coach a kid that way, and we praise that kind of stuff because when people catch up Yeah. They haven't figured out how to play the game hockey yet.
Jamie: Right.
Topher: Kids who, like us, who are smaller and less developed, you know, they have not hit puberty maybe early. We have to learn how to survive. We have to learn how to problem solve in a different way that translates to the next level when physical dominance like, every age you go up, physical dominance gets less and less a part of of of winning and a part of the game. And and again, so it all just like I don't if it's a Jedi mind trick, but, like, you just yeah. Yeah.
You have to you have to teach yourself. And as parents, we have to teach our kids that no. No. No. No.
No. This is a good thing. This is this is an advantage that you have, not only now, but this is gonna be an advantage for you when you get older. I've seen so many kids that were what you would call average players at 16, 17 years old, and then they hit puberty. And then it was like they pop.
And it's like because they they they know how to play the game because they had to think it, you know, or they had to compete hard to have success. And then that that's the thing that translates. And then you see again the other ones, the 16, 17 year olds were like the studs at that age, but then there's that ceiling because that's all they know how to do is just to be physically dominant.
Scott: So so on that note though, the so to everything you're saying makes a ton of sense in terms of, like, you know, being like a late bloomer or undersized. But if you could help me kind of, like, bridge that gap between, like, yes, it's an advantage, but, like, I'm scared, and I don't have enough confidence maybe to go in there and, like, battle. Now I get it. This part of it's coaching, part of it's like, are you doing battle drills, part of it's like, you know, what are the people around you doing to foster that within you. But at the end of the day, like, you know, just any advice on, like, you know, parents that are, you know, dealing or dealing is not the right word, but, like, have children that are maybe, and it doesn't have to be about the sizing at this point.
We can talk about confidence broadly speaking, but, like, how to help them, you know, become more confident or be more willing to take on, like, these things that could be really scary for some kids.
Topher: Yeah. Totally. That's a great question. You know, confidence is is everything. It it's it's it's honestly, it's everything.
It's everything at the highest levels of the game in the NHL. You look at these Olympians, and
Scott: Yeah.
Topher: It's it's the same for for young kids too. And and how do you develop? I think it it I think there's a little bit of age appropriateness that that and it's not totally the same for for a young kid as it is for an elite athlete at that age. But especially for young kids, it's reps removed out. What's the best way to get over what's what's the best way to get over fear of heights?
Go skydiving and understand that it's really not that bad. Yeah.
Jamie: You know? Like, you you gotta do the thing.
Topher: Action alleviates anxiety. You you gotta do the thing. Yeah. And so if you have a kid, like and I've I've seen it. It one of the coolest things in youth hockey, honestly, it's like one of my favorite moments of the year of of especially, like, the younger kids is you're gonna have your nature wise kids who are a little bit more timid, especially when you get to checking age.
You know? Like, you're gonna have some kids who don't don't love it, don't want it. You know? And then at some point at some point during the year, it might be in game two. It might be in game 50.
What does that kid do? That kid bundles somebody. Like, he like, you know, like, that kid, for whatever reason and it might even be an accident, but that kid, like, does something in the game really physically, and it get and then the reaction that everybody has to that kid Like, bench The goes the the parents in the stands go crazy. Yeah. And and it's like it's I think it's one of the coolest moments in youth hockey is when that happens.
And what happens in that kid who does that thing, something unlocks in them. They've gotten a little bit of success, and and they've gotten a little bit of the for the praise for the thing that they were afraid to do. And it's like, oh, man, it really wasn't that bad. And even like in life, guys, like, you talk to, like, psychologists or sports psychologists and stuff, the anxiety is not in doing the thing. The anxiety is in the leading up to doing the thing.
And then when you do the thing, it's like, why was I so anxious about that? Absolutely. So that's where, put them in battle drills, man. Like, if a kid doesn't like to battle, like, put them in battle drills constantly. And then and then just, like, how we positively reinforce when they do good in those drills, like, that that gets them so excited, and then they they the the fear kinda goes away a little bit, I think.
And and so get them to do the thing. Reps removed out. Get just do. You know? I I don't know.
I I would be interested to hear what you guys think, but I I feel like that's just a big part of it.
Scott: The the reps removed out thing, I think, is so true. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And I I think that, you know, for for some for, like, the younger age groups, like, things that I can think about, like, with my son, like, in in particular, like, when like, there was times where he was less willing to go battle in the corner, you know, and and he would just kinda stand on the periphery hoping a puck, you know, like, pop out, you know, like, on his stick and this and that.
And and for him, you know, like, I wasn't, know, like, this year, last year wasn't responsible for, like, you know, practice plans and stuff like that, and I wasn't coaching. But, like, continuing to talk to him and, like, trying to show him the value in it, you know, this is not, like, again, this is not a a rep, but, like, the it's more about the reinforcement. And, you know, part of it's kind of explaining why. You know, like, if you have the puck on your stick, you know, you're gonna keep the puck in the offensive zone. You know?
That's where you guys, you know, wanna spend more of your time than your defensive zone. And, you know, and then I think a lot of it also had to do with just, like, as he, like, became more, like I I think maturity, you know, was part of it that also came along. And and then he was like, oh, okay. Like, this is kinda like my job. I need to get in there a little more.
And then, like you said, you do a little bit. The door opens a little bit, and then it gets a little wider and a little wider. And then with time, you know, so yeah. No. I I think the repetition part is it makes a ton of sense.
Topher: Yeah. And I think the other thing too, especially for kids at the youngest ages, we gotta be asking them a lot of questions as coaches and and and figuring out why. Because a lot of times when a kid doesn't compete or a kid's timid, it might be different reasons why for different kids as to why that is. Maybe maybe it's a pair of pressure. You know, maybe the parent's putting so much pressure on the kid that I think we all know, Vax and I talk about it a lot, like, kids don't wanna put everything into something because they're afraid to fail.
And if they fail, you know, it's it's an easy excuse to say, like, I didn't like it, or I just, you know, I didn't try my best or whatever. And and so, like, creating that environment where there's there's not that pressure and they can try and fail and it's okay. You know? Like, that's I think that, like, what you're taught like, it's I think that's a part of it. And and just getting to know the kids, there's different reasons why they're not putting everything they have into something.
Maybe they are just scared. Maybe it's a pressure thing. You know, maybe maybe they're so scared about losing because their teammates are gonna make fun of them. You know, there there's a lot of different reasons why that happens. And so I think that's another thing, I guess, coaches and even as parents, like, notice noticing this thing.
What's up? You know? And asking questions and figuring out how you can best because every kid gets coached differently.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. So well said. Jeez.
Scott: So you go.
Jamie: No, was just gonna say we could go for
Topher: like another like four hours here.
Jamie: I know.
Topher: You know? It's like, it's fun being on this side. I love it. It's great.
Jamie: Man. That's right. Norm, it's a little role reversal for you. Yeah. Yeah.
This is fun.
Scott: Alright. So so alright. Be before we finish up though, so this I I need I need to hear perhaps I I need a Stan story. I because I was telling this kid
Jamie: We got away
Scott: from home, I was like, dude, not gonna believe it. He had this coach Stan, and they would have to do somersaults, and he wouldn't play like the, you know, a full play five on five. They would play like four on five to practice like the like the penalty kill for an entire game, Like, unreal. So Yeah.
Topher: I mean, he he he's a phenomenal coach.
Jamie: I had
Topher: him for three years. And and one of the funny and kind of circling back to what we were talking about earlier, my parents kept me off the super team to play for Stan. Our team was not for I played for him for three years. In the first two years, our team was half the talent that the other team had in triple a hockey in Chicago. And then eventually, were like, why is this team, like, the Bad News Bears beating us?
That coach is probably doing a pretty good job. And I remember, like, I I'm talking to my parents at one time, and and they were kinda I was kinda like, should I go play? Like, that team's way better. You know, the players are way better, and they're like, no. Like, we're better coached.
That's more important. Better culture. That's more important. But then what I'm about to say will probably negate. You you guys are probably gonna be like, oh, culture?
Like, this guy sounds like a wacko. But yeah.
Jamie: I mean Sounds like a legend is what he sounds like.
Scott: Yeah.
Topher: So listen. Half the things that Stan did, this was, like, you know, late nineties. You know? He'd get sued for it nowadays. Like, in in all honesty, he probably would.
But a couple of the things like, he he talked about ADM, and he talked about how practices. That's that's how we practiced in in in Peewee's and Banhams. It was all games. Everything was a game. Everything was a competition.
On the ice, off the ice, like, our dry land was not our workouts were not, like, workouts. We we played soccer. We played handball. We did, like, these Russian style kind of races where it's like a duck walk and like a frog leapfrog and, like, all these different kinds of things. So just the environment that was created, it was all about competition and all about fun.
Like, it was it was so much fun to play for him, and the practices were great. And the funny part that I also like to say too is, you know, the team that won the national championship, my band a major year, the fourteen new year, I think, like, a third of our practices were half ice or, like, in a studio rink. So, like, everybody that feels like, you know, at eight u, you have to have all four extra ice. Yeah. 14 years old, you know, like, nine division one players on the team or whatever it was, like, third of our practices were on, like, a small pond.
Yeah. And all because that's all we did was play smaller games.
Jamie: And
Topher: so Stan, a couple good Stan stories. So he was always looking for a way to challenge us. Always looking for ways to challenge us. And so, like, we again, going back to my hockey rankings, like, there wasn't that, so you would, you know, schedule games with teams, and you wouldn't necessarily know how good they were. And so, you know, there were a lot of times where we would beat up on a team eleven, twelve, 13, nothing on a Saturday, then we play them on a Sunday, and Stan's way of thinking was like, it's not worth playing another 13 to nothing game, So what can we do to make it harder for our players?
So let's go from maybe least crazy to crazy of things that he would do. Least crazy. Play the whole game shorthanded five on four. Like, literally had to play whole games shorthanded, five on four. Guys, that's the least crazy of what we're gonna talk about
Scott: here.
Topher: Oh, And again, my dad was the assistant coach, and he would always go over to the other coach and say, Hey, we would like to do this. And if they said no, then we would beat him 13 nothing again. If they said yes, then we would we'd do it. He'd we'd try to do it in a respectful way.
Scott: Yeah. Right.
Topher: So that was one thing that he would do. Another thing that we would do is we had, I think, nine forwards and five d. And the first period of the game, two lines would play and three d would play. And one of the lines in deep air would go up and they would do dry land. Like, they we would be working out doing his crazy Russian stuff.
Second period would come. That line would go get their equipment on. Another line would go do dry land for the second period. And then same thing for the that line would come back, and then the last line would for the third period would go and do dry land so that we would do that, and we never lost one of those games. Yeah.
And we were the by far the most conditioned team. You know? We won national national championship nine to one. Like
Scott: Oh, my god. Ironman Hockey.
Jamie: It's like Ironman Hockey.
Topher: Yeah. And we were it was old Russian stuff. You know? Like, we were just in shape. And so we did that.
We played entire games without a goalie, five on five without a goalie. Entire games, five on five without a goalie. Never lost one of those games. And it was such great development for us because, like, it was all about puck possession. We we could not let them shoot the puck because they if they shot the puck, they were gonna score.
And so we had to play really well defensively, really well defensively. And we had to hold on to the puck and not let the best way to play defense is to for the other team not to have the puck. So it was all about puck possession too. And and so, like, Stan would do a lot of of that. And then the last story I have, and I don't wanna, like, pimp out my podcast, but one of the episodes that we did was incredible.
Was with Mike Brown. And we just did it, like, maybe a month or two ago, and Brownie was a kid that was on that team. So Mike Brown, for everybody that's listening, played 400 games in the NHL. Mike Brown was the last pick on that 14 new team. I remember this.
Yeah. He was the last pick on that team, and he was the only guy to play in the NHL. Last pick on the team at 14 years old, and he's the guy that made it the furthest. So going back to it, like, every like, everybody's on a different path. And yeah.
Anyways, so Brownie, we had tryouts when when you actually had a tryout. You know? It was an actual tryout. It was three days long. And the first two days of tryouts, everybody was on the ice.
The last day of tryouts, Stan, the coach, basically told Brownie and one other kid, you two have it's up to you guys for the last spot. So you two are they picked the whole team, all 13 guys or whatever it was, and then you two are gonna duke it out for for the last spot. And so for for that tryout, everybody that made the team, we were up in the stands. We didn't even go out on the ice. It was Stan, it was Mike Brown, and it was the other kid.
We're the only three players on the ice, and they did battle drills. Wow. They did run and compete drills, and and Brownie ended up winning that. And because he won it, he ended up, you know, making the team. So you can say he was the worst player on our team.
He wasn't, but he was last person picked. Was He the guy that made it furthest. Two years later, he's the NTDP. Two years later, he's at the University of Michigan. Two years later, he's Wow.
He signs an NHL contract. And and and it's funny because I've talked to Brownie about this at at multiple times, and and he, like, kinda credits that day for making the
Jamie: NFL. Yeah.
Topher: You know, it, like, because it it it lit a fire in him. He was like, man, I'm the last player picked. I had to go through this. And, again, it's how you choose to see things. He was like, okay.
I gotta get better. I gotta get better, and and I gotta work my butt off, and he's one of the hardest working people I've ever met in my entire life. Last player picked a 14. I would say maybe embarrassed nowadays. Like, if in a one on one you had to do a one on one tryout, just two people on the ice for the last spot.
Like, that's that's embarrassed. That could be embarrassing. And imagine the parents thinking about that. You know? Like so it just like, Stan was he was a a man ahead of his time.
He was not afraid to do what he thought was the right thing to develop players no matter how unpopular the decisions were were gonna be
Jamie: from parents
Topher: and how much hate he was gonna get from other people. And and it was just a really, really cool learning experience and something to go through. And especially now as a coach and with the things that I do, a lot of it has shaped how I think about the game. Obviously, the game has changed. This is twenty five years ago, but but it's it was just really, really cool to be a part of.
I mean,
Jamie: would hit he would handicap your practices, essentially. Your games, I mean. He would handicap you guys by putting four against five. I mean, he would find a way to make the the game challenging for you guys. That's phenomenal.
Topher: Could you could you imagine doing that nowadays? Like, putting putting your team in a position where it's like, yeah, gonna make us maybe lose this game.
Jamie: Like, mutiny. It'd be a mutiny. So if you have smart parents, then the parents would like what what the coach is doing. Right? But unfortunately, these days, we talk about self awareness or lack of self awareness.
You know, unfortunately, a lot of hockey parents have
Topher: Yeah. And
Jamie: I think the lack of education.
Topher: And lack and the lack of education too. Yes. You know, hockey's a relatively new sport for a lot of people. There's a lot of people that didn't play, but their kid got a bug because, you know, their NHL team won the Stanley Cup, or they went to a learn to skate party or birthday party or whatever. There's so many different reasons that people get into it, and they just don't know.
They did they just don't they don't know the game, and that's why it's it's our job as leaders in this game to to really invest time and effort into into parent education. Again, like, would solve not solve, but that would make a lot of the issues that we see, I think, a lot a lot better. And and and I heard what was it? It was it was a volleyball thing, but there was a woman who was a volleyball coach at some high level club something. And she talked about kinda like the inverse relationship between a parent's playing career and how crazy they are.
So, like, most of the the the parents that have played at the higher levels, they're like your least drama, you know, kind of people and the ones that maybe haven't played, but love to have an opinion. They're successful in their their life outside of this. So, you know, their their opinion's usually right or whatever. Those people a lot of times are the ones
Jamie: that are causing a lot. I don't wanna say cause a
Topher: lot of problems, but they're the more educated you are on what we're doing, the, I think the easier it is to to look at, see, and see what's going on and have a have an appreciation for it and an understanding for it, and especially the why of why things go on.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So I have one more question before we you go.
Topher: Yeah. Right.
Jamie: So I meant to ask you before and then we started talking about everything. So you were talking about leadership. Okay. So and correct me if I'm wrong here. When you were at Michigan, was Rucker McGrory the captain then?
Topher: He wasn't a captain. He was a freshman.
Jamie: Oh, he was?
Topher: Yep. When I was I was there, was a freshman. Yeah.
Jamie: When you were because he was a captain down the road. Am I correct about that?
Topher: I mean, he's been a captain everywhere he's been. You know, he's captained the NTDP. Yes. You
Jamie: know, he's
Topher: captained the world junior team and stuff like that. So, yes,
Jamie: very much a leader.
Topher: Yeah. He was just a freshman.
Jamie: I I don't
Topher: know of any freshman that's ever been named captain of a college.
Jamie: No. Understood. Okay. I wasn't sure if he was was that and was that the year that did was that were you there the year where they beat Penn State in the to go to the Frozen Four? Was that the year you were there?
No overtime. Yep. It was when Mackie Samuskovich hit that shot in OT. I was sitting right behind that goal, by the way.
Topher: No way, really?
Jamie: Yes, I was I was right. I was right to the right of that goal. You didn't even see him snap it off. I mean, all of a sudden, was in the back of the net. It was unbelievable.
It was crazy. So you were on the bench for
Scott: that.
Topher: So you wanna know the best part about that.
Jamie: I thought so.
Topher: Being there that year, so that goal that Mackie scored to get us to the Frozen Four, I saw Mackie do that shot a thousand times that year. In practice? It's not an accident. It's not an accident why he is a goal scorer, and he's playing in the NHL, and he's a Stanley Cup ring playing for the Florida Panthers. Because if you look at a clean sheet of ice and there's nobody out there, Mac, you'll be out He's out
Jamie: there? Mhmm.
Topher: He's working on his craft. He's working on his game. And it's it's not it like, it's not an accident. When you make the NHL, it's not an accident. When you make college hockey division one, division three, what it's not an accident.
It's it's there's a lot of work and a lot of resilience and a lot of life skills that that go into into that. So that goal, I saw Mackey shoot that shot million times.
Scott: So cool.
Topher: Yeah. On the ice by himself or with a couple other people.
Jamie: Yeah. Scott, if you don't know it, he comes down in OT, and you didn't even see him snap the shot off. It was like, I mean, it was unbelievable. And it was in the back
Topher: of the net.
Jamie: And the Penn State goalie was standing on his head that game, and there was just nothing that he could do. He pulled it in tight and snapped it off, and the rest is his perfect shot.
Scott: College hockey is awesome.
Topher: Yeah. Anyway, Rucker McGratty leadership, what do you got?
Jamie: No. No. I was curious to hear what because I because I the the video that sticks in my mind with Rucker is him after they won gold, you know, world juniors. If him leading the, oh, mama, don't you cry in the locker room, I mean, he seems that we're talking about, you know, how would we have a void of leadership. He seemed like he was a big time leader, you know, when he was older on that Michigan team.
Am I right?
Topher: Yeah. So rut rut is infectious. And I mean that in the best way possible. Like his positive energy is very, very contagious.
Jamie: And and he's interviews.
Topher: Yeah. And and you talk about loving the game like, Rucker McGrory loves the game of hockey. He loves being a hockey player. He loves everything that goes into becoming the best that he can be at this sport. And and, again, look, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Jimmy McGrory, his dad, is is is a well known figure in the hockey world, particularly at the midget or not the midget level, the junior level. He's done a lot of winning at that level. Jeff Loveschio, it contributes a lot of his success in his career to Jim McGrory. Interesting. Because Jimmy coached him in Omaha.
Oh. When when he played junior hockey, was the assistant coach there. And and, again, like him and his family, like, they they love the Jimmy loves the game. Rutger loves the game. Like, he's a coach's kid.
He gets it. He understands it. And and just his his positivity, and everybody goes through their ups and downs in in the game. You know, you're not gonna be positive every day. You're not gonna have success every day, but he that was a gift that I think he gives every team that he's on is is just his infectious personality and and his care for for people and the smile.
Like, it just just a great kid that comes from a great family and really cool to see the success that he's had, you know, in in the game. You root for people like that.
Scott: Totally.
Jamie: Yeah. 100%.
Scott: Alright. Well, listen. This this was this was something and in the best way possible. And it's you know, I I think it's we can wrap this one up. This is maybe the longest conversation that we've had
Topher: with Yeah. Technically, yeah, we're we're going.
Scott: We're we're totally going.
Jamie: Yeah. No.
Topher: I it's it's awesome. And and I've had so much fun today being able to talk with you guys. And like I said, beginning, you know, Vex vex had so much fun when he was on here with you. So it's it's it's an honor to be on here with you guys. Thank you so much for for doing this.
We'll we'll get you on on our podcast at some point here soon.
Scott: Be amazing.
Topher: And I have one as as a, you know, podcast host. I have I have one one question for you because I I've I got asked this question a couple times. I think it's a really good one. This is not mine. It's the people have asked me, but like, you guys have done so many episodes now, and you've gotten the chance to talk to so many people.
What is the biggest thing that you've learned or the things that's made you better at what you do in your life that you've been able to learn from the the aggregate of guests? Is there a theme? Is there something that, like, you guys hear all the time from people that are talking about how to be the best you can be or whatever? What what for you guys is kind of like that that theme or that message that resonates?
Scott: Yeah. That that that's a great question. And It is a great question. Yeah. Know.
And and I think for me, having spoken to the and it's like, you know, it's it's always in the lens of of hockey. Right? But in, like, maybe this is gonna be a roundabout way to kinda answer it. But in terms of, like, the the the path, like, the people have different paths. And when I think about that with myself, you know, like, being, like, a late bloomer with this or, like, something like that, you know, I just think that, you know, the when I think about what I do in in for my career or even with this podcast, like, the the comparison piece and just knowing that, like, you know, my path, you know, down this podcasting road or with my careers is not gonna be the same as someone else's path.
And we hear that, like, a lot of everyone's path is different and that, you know, the the comparison that we talked about earlier, you know, it's like, it's really easy for us. It's like, you know, we start to get good guests, like, you know, like, oh, how are we compared to that podcast? Or how are we compared to that pod? You you know what I mean? Just like, and and we couldn't even I don't even even know how to, like, find an answer like that.
But then between Jamie and I, we're just like, listen, dude. Just keep going. 1% better each day. And, you know, it's just and I I think, like, those are some things that I've heard a lot of people say, you know, within the context of hockey that with respect to what we're doing on this podcast is has been applicable for sure.
Topher: That's great.
Jamie: Yeah. So think the biggest takeaway that and there's a lot of themes that we hear from all of our guests, right? I could start rattling them off left and right. One of the main themes that I think that I've taken away from what we're doing here is that there is so much lack of education on the parent end like you mentioned before, Toph. I I think what I've taken away from this is that I was going about this hockey dad journey all wrong until we started doing this.
And since then, I have now that I'm more educated in the space, right, because you're hearing from all these, you know, very impressive hockey minds that I was not hockey dad in the correct way, and I have since changed my entire hockey dad way here. I wish we had started this earlier. Right? So I would have known this earlier. So if we can help, which I think we are, and I think you guys, you and Jeff are doing the same thing.
If we can help educate parents out there to better speak to your kid, to better lead your kid, to better
Scott: Support them.
Jamie: Support your kid, right? To make sure you're more balanced in the house, you know, because I think a stable base for these kids is very important. Right? You mentioned in the hour and forty five minutes we've talking, you know, if things are nuts around, the kids feel it, and and that will show itself, you know, on the ice and in real life. So the biggest takeaway I have from this whole thing in a long winded way is that I was not hockey dabbing the right way, and now I am hockey dabbing the right way.
And I'm hoping that the people that listen to us also you're not gonna reach all of them, but I think that some of them in our comment sections, we're seeing that they're starting to change their stripes, which I think is it's gonna benefit people long term, not just with their kids in sports, but with their kids in life. Yeah.
Topher: Yeah. Amen. The parent piece is is everything. Yeah. Some it's funny, like, I I did one I did it, like, a parent seminar, and it was, like, it was really emotional for me.
Afterwards, I had a dad come up to me, and he had tears in his eyes, and he was like, I needed you five years ago. And I was like, what do you yeah. I was like, oh, man. Like, yeah, what do you mean? He's like, I have two sons, and my oldest son hates me.
And it's because of the way I parented him in his hockey journey. And if I had you five years ago, my kid doesn't hate me right now. And, like, guys, like, I have people that I know who played hockey at really high levels who still have a really bad relationship typically with your dad with their dads Yeah. Because of it. You know?
Yes. And so far as even some like, a few of them, like, don't want their dad around their kids talking.
Jamie: Oh, that's
Topher: You know? Like, because they're that traumatized. You know? And, like, so the dad and the, like, the grandson can't have that relationship, or at least it's at a distance. And so it's true.
Like, it's it's it's important. It's it's really important. And and, hopefully, you know, you guys are doing such a great job in in doing that. Hopefully, Vex and I are, you know, doing that too, and and just it's it's if we can all get better and get a little bit more perspective and listen, goes a long way.
Jamie: Yeah. And educate. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, thank you so much for coming on tonight.
This was such a treat Oh, for
Topher: I had so much fun, guys. This is great. I I'm gonna I won't yeah. I'm gonna tell Vax that you guys told me I was way better than him. So He's totally shit.
But, no, I I he's he's the best, and we have a good season. Yeah.
Jamie: Look forward to round two when we can get you guys on with us.
Scott: That would be amazing.
Jamie: Yeah. Looking forward to it. That'd be awesome.
Scott: Awesome. Well, thanks so much. Really appreciate your time. And, you know, continue to do what you do because I know it's influenced me and influenced everyone else, you know, that listens. If if you wouldn't mind just sharing with where you know, with our audience where they can find you, podcast, etcetera.
Topher: Sure. Yeah. Everything's the hockey think tank. Website's thehockeythinktank.com. All the social media stuff is at hockey think tank, and we're the hockey think tank podcast.
So if you can remember those couple words, you'll, you'll know where to find us. But, yeah, thanks thanks again, guys. This was a lot of fun.
Scott: You got it. Alright.
Jamie: Thanks so man. Have a great night.
Topher: See you
Jamie: soon, Topher. Be good. Alright. Alright, everybody. We are back with our interview with the Topher Scott.
I hope you guys enjoyed that because, man, we enjoyed speaking to him.
Scott: Yeah. Are you I
Topher: thought you were
Scott: gonna say Morris.
Jamie: Are you speechless? No.
Scott: I'm not speechless. Just thought you were gonna say Morris. Sorry. No. It was Yeah.
Was That's great. Dude, we covered so many things.
Jamie: Oh my god.
Scott: You know, I I one one thing that I I've continued to think about is just how he, talking about being an underage person, underage underage undersized hockey Yeah. Sure. And how he so sees that as an advantage. And I totally was, like, not for the same reasons, but when he was saying how, like, you know, I had to figure things out and, you know, like, how to solve problems in a different way because I was
Jamie: That was cool.
Scott: Yeah. No. And it makes a ton of sense. And when he was talking about the the, you know, whoever might be just better first or faster first or bigger, stronger, fat, whatever first. Yeah.
You know, that was me, dude. I'll show you a picture that I found in all the stuff that we found. It was one of my my hockey Oh,
Jamie: you mean because you were because you were big you mean?
Scott: Because I was big and then I just I I just figured I could have my way with people and then people grew and I couldn't and it was it was not the easiest thing to get used to because now I I was used to just like you know checking
Jamie: Just bulldozing
Scott: contact with
Jamie: See that by the way? See me just
Scott: What? You fall?
Jamie: You didn't catch that? My elbow slipped off the table.
Scott: I saw that but that that was, just an accident on your part. Right?
Jamie: No. That was well, yeah. It was not by design. Yes. That was me.
Scott: That's when it's not by design.
Jamie: Okay. Fucker. Alright, wise guy. Anyway But yes. No.
No. So you had an issue when you were because you were such a big boy?
Scott: Yeah. I mean, I didn't know I didn't know how to handle it at first. And and and to be honest with you, I was intimidated. But, like, I'll say Or is
Jamie: it I'll say this surprising to hear?
Scott: Listen. I'll I'll but but this is where I was intimidated. Mhmm. By the time I was in high school, I was probably at least six foot. I'm, like, between six two and six three at this point.
Right? Right. So when I when I was playing so playing club hockey, it was less of an adjustment because they were all kids my age. But when I started, I played varsity as a freshman in high school and then having to play against seniors who were, like, my size, but just, like, stronger and whatever like that like that that was more of the adjustment. That those are the moments where I found myself being more intimidated when I had to go against like kids that were like three, four years older than me played like, you know, whatever.
Right. But, yeah, I I I didn't Interesting. Yeah. It was not I remember it just not it being
Jamie: I remember there was a kid on there was a kid that played hockey from my high school. So Scott and I went to two different high school, two different, like, sister high schools. Funny, growing up at the same town with two different high schools, that's a whole another story. But those of you who know where Scott and I lived will understand the story. But we went to two different high schools, two sister high schools.
And I I I seem to recall there was a a senior on my high school's team that you were Sofer? Yeah. That you were kind of intimidated by.
Scott: A 100% I was.
Jamie: Yeah. I think was Cypher.
Scott: It was Craig Yeah. Yeah. He I think he went on to play D1 lacrosse. He was a goalie. No?
Jamie: I I think he was a very skilled lacrosse player. Yes. I think you're right. Yeah. I don't know
Scott: if he went d one.
Jamie: He was good boy.
Scott: Played lacrosse. Dude, he must have been, like, six four and, like He
Jamie: was a free two.
Scott: Two twenty, two thirty. You know? Like, I was like Yeah.
Jamie: So you as a freshman, 200.
Scott: But, like, the other thing was, like, it was different then. Right? Like, back in the nineties, like, everything was like finish your check. Everything, like, you had people playing hockey that were treating it kind of like football in some ways just trying to murder people.
Jamie: Blow people up. Yeah.
Scott: You know? And, like, they were taking runs at people. Like, the the dude broke one of the like, an another kid on our team's jaw. Like, completely, like, hammered him and broke his jaw against the boards. And the kid was wearing a full face mask, obviously, because we were in, like, United States high school hockey.
Jamie: Right.
Scott: Had, like, a a cage and broke his jaw. Like, I mean, I think I had reason to, but I you know, that did not get my competitive juices up where, like, I'm gonna try to fucking show this guy because I just Yeah. Felt like there was no way I didn't have the size and strength to to do it.
Jamie: He was also a senior when you were a freshman.
Scott: I appreciate But that's what I'm saying. Like No. That's a big difference. Right. But what I'm saying is
Jamie: And you were not a small dude.
Scott: No. But if I if I was like perhaps, if when I was younger, I was I was smaller and I had to like, you know, just maybe approach things differently or, you know, find ways to be physical against kids that are bigger than me, it wouldn't have been such an adjustment. You know? He's an exception. He was like a fucking freight train.
Right? But, like, all I'm saying is that because I was bigger, I I didn't I didn't necessarily I was like, hey. Why is everyone now big too? You know?
Jamie: Right. Topher made an interesting point in talking about that saying that the little the smaller guys have to kind of figure out the game of hockey because they can't just physically dominate. So they have to figure out all the ins and outs of the game. Then when they do grow, they've already had that figuring the part out, whereas bigger guys like you sometimes don't have to do that until it's, like, too late. Right?
Scott: Right. Be because they're not their their game's not evolving in certain ways.
Jamie: Right. Because it doesn't need to at the time.
Scott: Right. Doesn't need to. Right. Even though it should.
Jamie: It yeah. No. But was a very interesting point that he made.
Scott: You know? Was good for
Jamie: our parents that have shorter kids to hear.
Scott: Yeah. No. For sure. And then also just like his his his talk about, you know, how important coaching is and, like, his experience, like, when he had that coach Stan, which he talked about and, like, how
Jamie: Those those stories are
Scott: Those stories were great. But, you know, just the the level of compete and, like, you know, just I don't know. We touched upon so many things from from leadership to having a good parent group and talking about his mom and how they had put so much work into, you know, having, like, a good group and a good culture within the team. You know?
Jamie: Yeah. No. That that Stan stories were tremendous, by the way. I gotta tell you. I I would like my kid to play for a coach like that.
You know? Like that that he he was handicapping the game for his kids. You know? If they were playing a team that was not as good, he would play with four skaters. And and and so they were always on a on a penalty kill.
Right?
Scott: Right.
Jamie: I mean, he's handicapping. He's taking a game that should be a blowout, and he's making it hard for his players. That's a good hockey coach, dude. Like, that's a really good hockey coach.
Scott: I you I won't disagree. I I think that, you know, tactically, there's there's ways different ways to achieve similar results, but, like, with the way he was doing it was pretty extraordinary.
Jamie: Listen. It's extreme, and it's different. But if you look back at it, I mean, it it's a it's a very, very intelligent way to take a game that you should have won 15 nothing Yeah. And to and to and to change the dynamics of the game where your kids are gonna get something out of it. That's Yeah.
That's extraordinary coaching.
Scott: It is extraordinary. Yeah.
Jamie: It's great, dude. I think it's fantastic. Closest I've ever seen to that was when we were full ice mites. The assistant coach that took over our team when our head coach left, he was so angry at our players because they were not, like, playing in front of the goalie. They were not, like, helping out their goalie.
You know, it's kinda hanging them out to drive Yeah. To a team that we should not have been losing to. He pulled the goalie just to prove a point, and he made our team play with six skaters. And he said, don't you dare let a goalie. And I gotta tell you.
And we played for with we played six on five with no goalie for a good, like, seven, eight minutes and did not the fuck did not go in the net.
Scott: That's that's you know what's funny you say, you know, like
Jamie: It's a great move, dude. It's a great move.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah. I I've seen you know what I think I saw once although no. They didn't play with did they? I there was a there was a situation where a goalie got a penalty, and the coach made the goalie go to the penalty box.
I've seen that.
Jamie: That's cool too. I like that. But I I I think that Stan was the Topher's coach. He was handicapping the game for his players. Yes.
He was making things hard for his players
Scott: Yes.
Jamie: Which is a which in my opinion is a good hockey coach. You know?
Scott: No doubt. No doubt. And I and that what was I gonna say? I slipped my mind about but yeah. No.
You the way you put it handicapping is is spot on.
Jamie: It's great. If that that's and you're you're taking you're taking a a situation where your kids would have literally just run over a team and breezed through the game, probably not gave a whole ton of effort, and you're making it hard. And that's what and that's a good coach in my opinion. Right?
Scott: No doubt. Yeah. What about, you know, like, another thing that stuck out was when he was, like, kind of tying out, like, elite compete level directly to love for the game and passion. Right? That the best players he's been around.
Jamie: Yeah.
Scott: Love hockey and it's not work to them. But then at the same time, you know, he also felt that or believes that compete can be developed, like, you know, put kids in competitive environments continuously. And we called out he called out Jeff Leveckio. His cousin, Leveckio, about how he hasn't seen anyone better at putting kids in competitive environments
Jamie: In the gym. In all
Scott: all the time. Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. He talked about it when he was when when he was on our podcast. Right? I think I mentioned it during Topher's interview.
You know, he's he's having them compete, and the losers can do push ups, and the winner's chirping the kid doing push ups. That's great. No. It's it's awesome, dude. Yeah.
I mean, it's like a small area game. You know what I mean?
Scott: No doubt.
Jamie: And and then when the kids, they have to compete on the ice, it they they already know what they're doing. You know? So it's it's you're teaching them a you're teaching them a skill.
Scott: Yeah. What about what about this one when he was talking about the shoot. It's getting late, dude. But I'm gonna stick with it. I'm gonna I'm gonna really gonna
Jamie: Counter it. Counter it.
Scott: Dial in. I'm gonna whatever it is. Yeah. No. When he was talking about what kind I think he was it you that asked him about what separates, like, NHL guys or people that, you know, like, kinda go on to the next level Yeah.
That who, like, kinda get there and stay as opposed to, like, bounce up and down? And his answer was, like, self awareness.
Jamie: Yeah, man. Yeah. That was pretty cool.
Scott: Self aware are those are the ones that, you know, look. It's not everyone. It's never, like, in a 100% or always or absolute, you know, answer. But, like, knowing your ownership. Knowing your weaknesses, knowing your role, being coachable, and just being self aware about what's going on was something that he thought was a A major skill.
Separated those that stay and those that bounce.
Jamie: Yeah. I was that answer surprised me. Right? But when but when he when we started talking about it, it made perfect sense. You know, guys that, you know, can say, you know, I'm not taking care of business.
I need to do x, you know, instead of y. They're aware of what they're doing and what they're not doing. Right? And they fix it if they're not doing it, which is a skill into itself. Right?
You know?
Scott: No. There are so many good things. So many good things in there. And, like, the last thing I'll probably call out, but, like, he when he differentiated between recruiting culture versus, like, development culture on teams and how, like, you know, a lot of coaches are just bringing kids in just to, take care of the wins and losses as opposed to having a
Jamie: core
Scott: of kids that are being developed over time with intention. And I think that was one of the things he also called out you know, as far as parents to look out for now that, you know, many of us are, trials are upon us. Like, you know, watch it. Jamie, you still got you still got practices. I mean, I don't my team doesn't, but, you know, for anyone out there that has a kid that you're thinking about another team, if that other team is still practicing, go catch a practice.
Watch it on LiveBarn. You know, you have you have LiveBarn, you can go back at least thirty days, I think. Find a practice. Watch it. See see what you you're know, what's going on out there.
Jamie: Yeah. I think he also mentioned, beware of coaches that, promise you or tell you everything you wanna hear. Yep. Right? Something else.
If you guys are looking for new locations for your kids to play and you're talking to the coach, beware of the coach that's telling you everything that you wanna hear.
Scott: Yeah. You wanna look for honesty.
Jamie: Yeah. You'd rather have the guy that's gonna give it to you between the eyes as opposed to just telling you everything you wanna hear.
Scott: And sometimes it's hard to tell. So there are good salesman out there. You know what I mean? But still
Jamie: It's true.
Scott: That that was a good a good word of caution.
Jamie: Yes. Yes. I think so too. Well Yeah. So hope hopefully, everybody enjoyed the interview.
He's he was great. Do you wanna tell your story about your wife and kids in Florida?
Scott: Oh, yeah. And that yeah. Sure.
Jamie: So Right.
Topher: Then we'll wrap it up.
Scott: So at this point, I'll I'll do it quick. And but so the my family went to Florida, went to Miami, Wednesday before the big storm we had up here in the Northeast, end up getting snowed in down there. Like, so I'm
Jamie: watching did not go because you were home working. Right?
Scott: I I was working. Yeah. They kinda called me on a Wednesday. They called me, like I don't know. My wife called me probably, like, eleven.
She's like, I'm gonna take the kids to Miami today. I was like, thanks for your
Jamie: See you.
Scott: Thanks. Anyway, so they went, and they got stuck down there. But then also the US men's team got rerouted down there, And they're watching After
Jamie: they wanna
Scott: my go. God. The the Olympic team's coming down here. And then it might have been said on the news, but, like, they they knew that they were going to a steakhouse in Miami. And so I'm like, you should go try to find them.
You know? And
Jamie: Now they were in Miami? Your family was in Miami?
Scott: Not Miami proper, but they were Okay. They went to visit my house who were who were about, like, forty minutes north.
Jamie: Okay. Like, Fort Lauderdale area?
Scott: Thirty, forty minutes. I don't know. Sunny Isles, I think it's called. Okay.
Jamie: Got it. Okay.
Scott: Or I know it's called. But so in any event, so they went and, you know, I was just I didn't even think of it, like, while she was telling me the story, but they basically left. They went to Dick's to find some, like, you know, USA hockey gear. I don't think they found any. Now But they're driving to Miami, like, around dinnertime, which was, like, how my wife figured when to leave to go.
Like, I'll get there around dinnertime, whatever that is. And so they're driving, and then they drive by a bus that's not a luxury bus. It's like a hop on, hop off, like, tour bus. And I was like, I saw I saw the team. And I was like, no.
You didn't. And then sure enough, in front of, like, the bus, there was, a motorcade. And sure enough, these players were, getting a ride to the restaurant on a hop on, hop off bus. But so my wife's like, oh my god. I can't believe it.
They're actually right here. So they're start following them. They get to, like, a train crossing and the track like, you know, the the train signals come down and their their bus made it through. My wife got left lost them. They ended up finding them.
They saw them all walking to the restaurant. No one signed autographs. My wife's like, alright. Listen, kids. I'm gonna try to make a reservation.
So just play cool. Don't pretend like you're trying to see the hockey players. Try to get a reservation. Didn't happen. So then they went to eat somewhere else, like, the neighborhood.
At the end of dinner, like, Otto was just so thrilled to even see them walk into the restaurant. He, like, teared up. Like, was and Orly is like, yeah, we're let you know, let's let's go find them. And I was like, or let's see if they're coming out of the restaurant. Was like, I was like, you know, this is like, you know, I got to see them.
It was amazing. You know, like, don't have to go back. And then or he's like, nope. You're going. So they went back to the restaurant.
Sure as anything. Twenty minutes later, out pops Quinn Hughes among others. And Otto got to take pictures, get autographs. It was just like an unreal moment for a kid who just got to see, like, you know, some idols like Wingold Topher Scott Thompson's walking around with a gold medal around his neck. Like, I my son couldn't have been any happier.
Was like a dream come true. My daughter had so much fun. It was just such a cool experience for them.
Jamie: It's on our Instagram. Matthew Kochuk signs stuff from. Jack Eichel signs stuff from. Yep. A bunch of people
Scott: are Barking.
Jamie: Connor Ellebuck took pictures Yeah. Of I mean, it's all it's go to our Instagram. You'll see them all the pictures or they put them all up and also Super cool. Videos on, like, a carousel. It is super cool.
And it's funny. What I actually wanna say about that is I listened to the Wingman Podcast that that just came out when they came back from Italy after winning gold. And Oh, did. Yeah? Yeah.
And the fur for those of you who don't know who what the Wingman Podcast is, Brady and Matthew Kacchuk have a podcast that they do every Wednesday, during the NHL season. And they basically chronicled the the day before the gold medal game, leading up to the gold medal game, the gold medal game itself, and then after the gold medal game. It's a really, really good episode if you guys wanna
Scott: go listen
Jamie: to it.
Topher: It's it's fantastic.
Jamie: They and then they're wearing their gold medals around their necks while they're doing the podcast. Yeah. And then Matthew, it smells like champagne and cigars. But, man, it was a really good episode. Like, even even to have your kids go listen to it, it was it was really well done, and they give a lot of, like, inside baseball to, like, the stories and kinda like
Scott: I gotta listen to it.
Jamie: And I gotta tell you, they were the one thing you'll get out of it is they were such a tight bunch of players when they were there. I mean, they really were were a very, very tight bunch of players. That the the coach was awesome. You know, he made a pretty good speech before over yeah. The rangers coach made a pretty good speech in the locker room right before overtime.
This worked out really well. A good group of players, good coaching staff, and clearly, it, wind up working for them.
Scott: So so interesting you say that that they were such a tight bunch. I mean, you'd expect anyone that's competing for gold to figure out a way to, like, you know, get close. But I was Yeah. This the most recent episode of Chiclets, I think, or maybe the one on Friday. One of the Chiclets episodes, they were talking about how, like, a lot of these kids or players, not kids, but players were at the NTTP together and TTP together.
Yep. Or kind of like as one was leaving, the others were coming in. And so Worenski was talking about how he's like, I've known these guys since I was in high school. And we go out to dinner, and he's like, we were in high school together. We played together.
It was like picking up where we left off. And apparently apparently, there was a comment or something that was said, like, back, like, when the NTDP NTDP started and someone commented, like, look out twenty twenty six Olympics.
Jamie: No shit. Somebody said that? How funny is that? You know, it's funny you mentioned that because Matthew Kochuck on that podcast that I just referenced said something very similar. He's like, we all played together at some at some he's like, we all knew each other when we were kids.
You know? Yeah. Whether and he mentioned NTDP. He mentioned just kinda like, you know, youth hockey and shit. Yep.
A lot like I said, a lot of them knew each other for
Scott: Yeah.
Jamie: You know, forever. And for all of
Scott: them to
Jamie: be on the same team and then win it, it's pretty special, buddy.
Scott: Yeah. It's unreal.
Jamie: Pretty special.
Scott: What a story.
Jamie: Lot of crying still north of the border. Lot a lot of crying north of the border.
Scott: You know?
Jamie: Lot a lot of crying.
Scott: I will say the little bit that I've heard from Canadians very I've I've heard only I've I've heard people who like just been very classy about it.
Jamie: Oh, I haven't. I know who's extremely classy about it. Paul Bissonnette,
Scott: Extremely classy. Yeah.
Jamie: No. He was for sure.
Scott: But then there was someone else that came out.
Jamie: Super classy.
Scott: I was listening to something else. Like I said, I haven't listened to a a or seen a a lot of that. But Yeah. For sure, there was someone else that was that was similarly oh, no. Was an Instagram post.
I think I sent it to you. Did I send you that, like, cursed? And this guy was talking about how, like, all the missed outlined mistakes that Canada made, and they're and they were just like, you know Yeah. Enjoy it. Enjoy it, boys.
Jamie: Oh, yeah. I did see that. Sure. Yeah. I'll back in four years.
Yeah. Yeah. And listen. And and they will be back in four years. Don't no.
Make no mistake. Canada is not like Canada is not like down. If anything, they're gonna come back fucking angry as as anything. Right? They're gonna they're gonna have a huge chip on their shoulder, and they're gonna come for blood.
And you know what? Good. And there'll be another good hockey game.
Scott: You know? Yeah. I will.
Jamie: And, hopefully, The US wins again. But listen. Wouldn't surprise you if they didn't. Listen. Canada's good.
They have a good fucking hockey team. Dude. You know? North America's got
Scott: great hockey.
Jamie: North America does have great hockey. We're very lucky here. No question
Scott: about it.
Jamie: And we love our Canadian listeners to the North because we have a lot of you, but I still have to root for United States. Even though I love you guys as listeners.
Scott: Listen. It was a yeah. It was a it was a hell of a game.
Jamie: Yes. And It was a hell
Scott: of game. We will we will we will enjoy this for as long as we can.
Jamie: For four years, I will enjoy this, and then I will get nervous when we have to play them again.
Scott: Yep. Yeah. Alright, my man. What do you think? Wrap it up.
Jamie: Yeah. Good episode. We will see you guys for episode 57. Appreciate everybody. Yeah.
Thanks so much.
Scott: Awesome.
Jamie: We'll see you soon, homeboy. Be good. I'll talk to you later.
Scott: Alright. Take it easy, everyone.
Jamie: See you.