1 00:00:09,209 --> 00:00:11,611 Hello and welcome back to The Premise. 2 00:00:11,611 --> 00:00:13,680 I'm Jennifer Thompson and I'm Chad Thompson. 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,684 And today we are here with Emily whose book start at the end 4 00:00:17,684 --> 00:00:18,752 has recently come out. 5 00:00:18,752 --> 00:00:22,022 And it is absolutely gorgeous. 6 00:00:22,022 --> 00:00:24,391 I love this book. 7 00:00:24,391 --> 00:00:26,559 It is about finding your voice. 8 00:00:26,559 --> 00:00:27,794 It's about being vulnerable. 9 00:00:27,794 --> 00:00:30,797 It's about grief and love and trust in yourself. 10 00:00:30,964 --> 00:00:33,900 And it explores the idea of what if you know what 11 00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:37,804 if this one thing affects that, and where do we end up? 12 00:00:37,837 --> 00:00:40,874 And it's about the messiness of life, but it's also the beauty of life. 13 00:00:40,907 --> 00:00:43,576 So I'd like to introduce Emma Gray. 14 00:00:43,576 --> 00:00:47,213 She is the author of seven books, including two international 15 00:00:47,213 --> 00:00:51,251 bestselling novels, The Last Love Note and Pictures of You, 16 00:00:51,384 --> 00:00:55,321 winner of the American Independent Publisher Book Award Gold Medal. 17 00:00:55,722 --> 00:00:59,125 Her adult and young adult novels have been translated internationally, 18 00:00:59,259 --> 00:01:02,262 optioned for film, and adapted for the stage. 19 00:01:02,395 --> 00:01:05,732 She lives in Canberra, Australia, surrounded by her three children, 20 00:01:05,765 --> 00:01:07,834 stepchildren and grandchildren. 21 00:01:07,834 --> 00:01:10,537 Emma, welcome to The Premise. 22 00:01:10,537 --> 00:01:11,438 Thank you so much. 23 00:01:11,438 --> 00:01:13,106 It's lovely to be here with you both. 24 00:01:13,106 --> 00:01:16,142 Well, I am just delighted and I know that, you know, 25 00:01:16,142 --> 00:01:18,211 it's pretty early in the morning for you, so we appreciate it. 26 00:01:18,211 --> 00:01:19,112 We appreciate you 27 00:01:19,112 --> 00:01:22,282 taking the time to talk to us over here on the other side of the planet. 28 00:01:22,982 --> 00:01:24,017 Oh you're welcome. 29 00:01:24,017 --> 00:01:26,586 Yes. I'm coming to you from the future. Technically on time. 30 00:01:26,586 --> 00:01:27,987 You technically are. 31 00:01:27,987 --> 00:01:30,123 Which works really well with this book. 32 00:01:32,659 --> 00:01:33,827 We'll dive into that. 33 00:01:33,827 --> 00:01:34,260 Boilers. 34 00:01:34,260 --> 00:01:37,964 Yeah, yeah, we're going to do our best not to have any spoilers today for you. 35 00:01:38,565 --> 00:01:39,732 So I got to tell you, 36 00:01:39,732 --> 00:01:43,169 I don't think I've cried this much reading a book or, you know. 37 00:01:43,736 --> 00:01:46,773 Well, I haven't cried this much since I watched Steel Magnolias. 38 00:01:47,173 --> 00:01:47,674 Oh, gosh. 39 00:01:47,674 --> 00:01:50,443 Do you remember that movie? Yes, yes I do. 40 00:01:50,443 --> 00:01:53,580 Whenever I read a really good book that, like, I am just. 41 00:01:54,147 --> 00:01:57,250 I'm so emotionally invested. 42 00:01:57,250 --> 00:02:00,253 I always think of Steel Magnolias. 43 00:02:00,687 --> 00:02:03,690 I cried a lot in steel Magnolias as well. 44 00:02:04,624 --> 00:02:06,292 But this one, you know, in a good way though. 45 00:02:06,292 --> 00:02:08,761 But you know the middle is just gutting. 46 00:02:08,761 --> 00:02:12,332 It's like oh I just felt your grief. 47 00:02:12,332 --> 00:02:15,401 And of course at the end of the book I read the acknowledgments. 48 00:02:15,401 --> 00:02:18,471 And I come to understand that this book is actually inspired 49 00:02:18,872 --> 00:02:23,009 largely by your husband's death, 2016, ten years ago. 50 00:02:24,144 --> 00:02:27,814 And I was like, oh, no wonder, no wonder. 51 00:02:27,814 --> 00:02:30,583 It's so visceral and and real. 52 00:02:30,583 --> 00:02:33,653 And I mean, it was just you're an extraordinary writer. 53 00:02:33,653 --> 00:02:34,921 So there's that too. 54 00:02:34,921 --> 00:02:37,891 I don't know that you have to experience grief to write it 55 00:02:37,891 --> 00:02:40,894 so well, but I'm guessing it helped. 56 00:02:41,094 --> 00:02:44,063 Yeah. Well, it certainly helped me to write. 57 00:02:44,063 --> 00:02:46,533 It helped me to write about grief. 58 00:02:46,533 --> 00:02:48,334 Help me in my in my grief. 59 00:02:48,334 --> 00:02:50,270 I think it was very cathartic. 60 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:53,273 And I mean, I had known, 61 00:02:53,907 --> 00:02:57,477 you know, when Jeff died in 2016, I knew that 62 00:02:57,477 --> 00:03:00,947 I was going to have to process that loss through writing. 63 00:03:01,581 --> 00:03:04,050 And I've been really doing that ever since 64 00:03:04,050 --> 00:03:07,353 in different ways, and it has helped me. 65 00:03:07,353 --> 00:03:10,023 But I think it's also helped a lot of my readers 66 00:03:10,023 --> 00:03:12,825 who've been in touch with me over the last few years 67 00:03:12,825 --> 00:03:16,362 and sort of thanked me for articulating things 68 00:03:16,362 --> 00:03:20,533 that are very difficult to put into words sometimes, some of these deep emotions. 69 00:03:21,134 --> 00:03:23,436 And I think that's the beauty of fiction. 70 00:03:23,436 --> 00:03:27,273 I think we get to escape into somebody else's world, 71 00:03:27,774 --> 00:03:32,612 but if it's close to our own in any way, it helps us to navigate our own losses. 72 00:03:33,012 --> 00:03:33,913 Yeah. 73 00:03:33,913 --> 00:03:36,783 So true and so well put. 74 00:03:36,783 --> 00:03:39,018 And this book absolutely does that. 75 00:03:39,018 --> 00:03:43,056 I mean, it was just so beautiful and I was so invested. 76 00:03:43,523 --> 00:03:46,960 And their experience, all of them, every character. 77 00:03:47,327 --> 00:03:50,730 And I just kind of wondered like, did you know where this book was going to go 78 00:03:50,730 --> 00:03:51,664 when you started writing it? 79 00:03:51,664 --> 00:03:54,734 Did you have a kernel or were you just writing and it started to evolve? 80 00:03:55,168 --> 00:03:58,538 I tend to just write, which does get me into some trouble 81 00:03:58,538 --> 00:03:59,939 sometimes with my editors. 82 00:04:01,407 --> 00:04:02,709 I do glad to hear that 83 00:04:02,709 --> 00:04:05,945 I create a lot of extra work for everyone. 84 00:04:06,179 --> 00:04:11,351 Because I don't plot and I knew I knew broadly 85 00:04:11,351 --> 00:04:15,121 what I wanted to try to do with this book, and it was quite a challenging premise. 86 00:04:15,321 --> 00:04:18,224 It is, I guess, a little bit of a spoiler to say. 87 00:04:18,224 --> 00:04:21,227 It's a little bit of a sliding doors concept. 88 00:04:21,361 --> 00:04:26,266 But, you know, and then that presents you with this opportunity 89 00:04:26,266 --> 00:04:30,403 to imagine two potential outcomes for these characters. 90 00:04:30,403 --> 00:04:34,340 And that was quite a stretch for my brain at times. 91 00:04:34,340 --> 00:04:35,308 You know, just remembering 92 00:04:35,308 --> 00:04:37,744 what's happening on this side and what's happening over here. 93 00:04:37,744 --> 00:04:40,647 And but it was so interesting to do. 94 00:04:40,647 --> 00:04:44,350 And, there was actually one entire draft 95 00:04:44,350 --> 00:04:48,554 that we had to ditch where it had gone a step further in complexity. 96 00:04:48,554 --> 00:04:52,659 That ended up just being too, almost too distracting for the story. 97 00:04:52,659 --> 00:04:54,894 So sometimes that happens when you don't plot 98 00:04:54,894 --> 00:04:59,032 and you just take something too far or try something a bit too 99 00:04:59,065 --> 00:05:02,268 trying to be a bit too clever and it may not work. 100 00:05:02,302 --> 00:05:05,004 So again, that's where editing comes in. 101 00:05:05,004 --> 00:05:08,041 And it's just I'm so grateful to the people who can help me 102 00:05:08,641 --> 00:05:11,644 straighten things out when they go a little bit astray. 103 00:05:11,744 --> 00:05:14,580 It was it really was 104 00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:18,084 such an enjoyable book to write because in addition 105 00:05:18,084 --> 00:05:21,988 to the grief, there's also of course, so much hope and excitement. 106 00:05:21,988 --> 00:05:23,089 And yeah, 107 00:05:23,089 --> 00:05:24,090 I know that's what I'm trying 108 00:05:24,090 --> 00:05:27,994 to embody in my life this year as well, with this 10th anniversary 109 00:05:27,994 --> 00:05:31,297 since Jeff died, to really be doing some things 110 00:05:31,297 --> 00:05:34,767 in my own life that lift me up and give me that hope for the future. 111 00:05:34,934 --> 00:05:37,003 I'm starting at the end as well. 112 00:05:37,003 --> 00:05:39,972 Well said. Wow. Yeah. 113 00:05:40,540 --> 00:05:41,607 And ten years is 114 00:05:42,642 --> 00:05:43,443 interesting that it 115 00:05:43,443 --> 00:05:47,313 you know it happens on that in that timeline. 116 00:05:47,714 --> 00:05:48,114 Yeah. 117 00:05:48,114 --> 00:05:50,483 I mean it feels like just yesterday. 118 00:05:50,483 --> 00:05:52,985 And so I'm sure. But 119 00:05:52,985 --> 00:05:54,987 and I do remember thinking at the time, I couldn't 120 00:05:54,987 --> 00:05:58,958 imagine getting through ten weeks and days even at the start, you know, and, 121 00:05:58,958 --> 00:06:03,896 and the, the concept of being here ten years later, do it. 122 00:06:03,896 --> 00:06:07,834 And talking about this with you, going on a US book tour 123 00:06:08,401 --> 00:06:10,970 next month, all that sort of stuff. 124 00:06:10,970 --> 00:06:11,671 Just. 125 00:06:11,671 --> 00:06:13,373 I would never have believed it back then. 126 00:06:13,373 --> 00:06:16,242 It did feel like life was over. It was. 127 00:06:16,242 --> 00:06:17,377 It was a sudden loss. 128 00:06:17,377 --> 00:06:20,046 And, you know, you never prepared. 129 00:06:20,046 --> 00:06:22,014 I think even if you do see it coming. 130 00:06:22,014 --> 00:06:25,952 And so it really I sort of wish I could go back 131 00:06:25,952 --> 00:06:29,021 and speak to that earlier version of me and say it's going to be okay. 132 00:06:30,123 --> 00:06:30,390 And I 133 00:06:30,390 --> 00:06:33,526 think that's what I'm doing sometimes with, with some of this writing 134 00:06:33,526 --> 00:06:36,963 for other people who are at that much earlier 135 00:06:37,663 --> 00:06:40,666 part of the, experience of grief. 136 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,335 Absolutely. 137 00:06:42,335 --> 00:06:45,838 Well, and that's what really struck me too, is you had this ability to show 138 00:06:45,838 --> 00:06:47,907 and we are going to have some spoilers here. 139 00:06:47,907 --> 00:06:49,108 We can't really help it. 140 00:06:49,108 --> 00:06:52,111 My God, you know, this what if scenario, 141 00:06:52,111 --> 00:06:55,381 this butterfly effect that you allude to in the book, you know, 142 00:06:56,249 --> 00:06:58,551 and you got to dig into that and see, you know, 143 00:06:58,551 --> 00:07:00,987 how would he have gone on without me? 144 00:07:00,987 --> 00:07:02,188 And I'll be honest with you, 145 00:07:02,188 --> 00:07:05,191 I think I might actually start crying because it was so 146 00:07:06,259 --> 00:07:08,227 real and powerful, 147 00:07:08,227 --> 00:07:11,464 and I could just imagine it, you know, and and I have to tell you. 148 00:07:11,864 --> 00:07:15,034 So years ago, I was driving. 149 00:07:15,034 --> 00:07:18,037 I was in this intersection, and someone didn't they didn't 150 00:07:18,037 --> 00:07:22,074 stop at the stop sign, and they almost hit me and I swerved and I had this, like, 151 00:07:22,575 --> 00:07:26,813 thought in my head and was like, oh my God, in another universe, I just died. 152 00:07:27,213 --> 00:07:27,980 Yeah, yeah. 153 00:07:27,980 --> 00:07:29,949 And Chad has to go on without me. 154 00:07:29,949 --> 00:07:35,822 And I was and it struck me like, what if, you know, and and so when I started 155 00:07:35,822 --> 00:07:39,058 reading your book, I didn't realize that's where we were going. 156 00:07:39,058 --> 00:07:41,828 And I was like, oh my God, this is so good. 157 00:07:41,828 --> 00:07:44,063 But talk about the what if, like, 158 00:07:44,063 --> 00:07:47,467 when did you decide this book would dig in to the what if? 159 00:07:48,034 --> 00:07:52,305 Well, I think actually soon after, not soon after. 160 00:07:52,305 --> 00:07:57,009 I got very early on after Jeff died, I used to occasionally think 161 00:07:57,009 --> 00:07:58,978 what would have happened if this was the other way around. 162 00:07:58,978 --> 00:08:02,915 I think because we had a young child who was five at the time, 163 00:08:02,915 --> 00:08:04,884 who's now 15 and towering over me. 164 00:08:07,119 --> 00:08:10,022 You know, I, I would often wonder 165 00:08:10,022 --> 00:08:14,260 how would he have handled everything if if it had been me who had died. 166 00:08:14,660 --> 00:08:17,330 Yeah. And where would they be living? 167 00:08:17,330 --> 00:08:20,833 And he had been applying for a job in Ireland 168 00:08:20,967 --> 00:08:23,970 at the time, just before he died. 169 00:08:24,136 --> 00:08:26,305 He was a professor of history. 170 00:08:26,305 --> 00:08:29,909 And so would the family have moved to Ireland? 171 00:08:29,909 --> 00:08:32,778 Would my my little boy have an Irish accent now? 172 00:08:32,778 --> 00:08:34,614 You know, 173 00:08:34,614 --> 00:08:35,715 what would they have done? 174 00:08:35,715 --> 00:08:38,751 What would my girls have, have studied at university or, 175 00:08:38,751 --> 00:08:42,088 you know, just the entire family 176 00:08:42,088 --> 00:08:45,091 outcome could have been completely different. 177 00:08:45,091 --> 00:08:49,829 And I think we all have experiences in life where we we 178 00:08:49,829 --> 00:08:52,164 look at where we are now, and then we look back and think, 179 00:08:52,164 --> 00:08:57,203 there was the crossroads back then, and we either had something happen to us 180 00:08:57,203 --> 00:09:01,974 or we made a decision or a choice that sort of pushed us down this path. 181 00:09:01,974 --> 00:09:03,109 Instead. 182 00:09:03,109 --> 00:09:05,878 And we question, did we make the right choice? 183 00:09:05,878 --> 00:09:08,881 You know, is this where I should be, all those sorts of things? 184 00:09:09,015 --> 00:09:13,052 And this was an opportunity for me to explore that concept 185 00:09:13,052 --> 00:09:16,455 that I think it resonates with most of us at different times. 186 00:09:16,923 --> 00:09:21,961 And then to sort of show myself that in either outcome, 187 00:09:22,328 --> 00:09:25,164 everything would have been okay, it would have been different, 188 00:09:25,164 --> 00:09:28,167 but everyone would have found their way through regardless. 189 00:09:28,367 --> 00:09:31,938 And so that was really very therapeutic to think. 190 00:09:32,638 --> 00:09:35,241 I can imagine, you know, in talking about Parker. 191 00:09:35,241 --> 00:09:39,712 So she's five years old and she loses a parent and, you know, so 192 00:09:39,712 --> 00:09:44,383 we're watching her struggle through both scenarios, which was God. 193 00:09:44,383 --> 00:09:45,818 It was therapeutic for me, 194 00:09:45,818 --> 00:09:50,489 you know, reading about how we how we struggle through loss. 195 00:09:50,489 --> 00:09:53,693 And she really came out the same in 196 00:09:53,693 --> 00:09:56,696 both scenarios. Yes. 197 00:09:56,696 --> 00:09:57,229 That's right. 198 00:09:57,229 --> 00:10:00,399 That's I think that was really something that I wrote for myself. 199 00:10:00,633 --> 00:10:01,300 Sure. 200 00:10:01,300 --> 00:10:05,371 Prove myself that my little child was going to be okay in other, 201 00:10:05,371 --> 00:10:09,342 you know, either outcome to she she really becomes the hero of the story. 202 00:10:09,342 --> 00:10:10,443 And I love that for her. 203 00:10:10,443 --> 00:10:14,080 I just think it's so powerful what she ends up doing. 204 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,450 And, you know, I've met a lot of, people 205 00:10:17,850 --> 00:10:22,488 since my last who, adults now, but who lost a parent when they were young. 206 00:10:22,488 --> 00:10:26,726 And in every case, I've noticed they are a strong, resilient person 207 00:10:26,726 --> 00:10:28,027 who's done amazing things. 208 00:10:28,027 --> 00:10:31,897 And I think that the loss has really shaped them. 209 00:10:31,897 --> 00:10:36,469 So I was drawing upon those people, friends and others that I've met in life 210 00:10:37,036 --> 00:10:39,805 who, just showed me that 211 00:10:39,805 --> 00:10:44,510 it's still going to be okay for my son and that, you know, this has been 212 00:10:44,510 --> 00:10:50,816 a terrible tragedy in his life, but, he, you know, his life is not over either. 213 00:10:50,816 --> 00:10:54,420 And he's got, a big future ahead of him as well. So 214 00:10:55,488 --> 00:10:56,889 I love that character. 215 00:10:56,889 --> 00:11:00,860 She really, I mean, I, I noticed in different drafts 216 00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:04,296 as, as I went on, she just got stronger and stronger and 217 00:11:05,331 --> 00:11:07,133 more prominent role. 218 00:11:07,133 --> 00:11:08,634 Nice. 219 00:11:08,634 --> 00:11:12,571 And that that, again, was sort of all a surprise to me too, because I don't plot. 220 00:11:12,571 --> 00:11:17,076 So when she we won't say what she does, but when she steps up 221 00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:20,146 and sort of becomes the hero there, at one point 222 00:11:20,913 --> 00:11:24,617 I just felt like cheering for her, you know, I felt like she and, 223 00:11:25,685 --> 00:11:27,753 it's it's really lovely. 224 00:11:27,753 --> 00:11:29,121 She was a real person. 225 00:11:29,121 --> 00:11:31,891 I mean, I you know, it's funny when I reflect on the book 226 00:11:31,891 --> 00:11:34,860 because it's really stuck with me since I finished reading it. 227 00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:37,963 And sometimes I stop and say, oh, wait a minute, was that a movie? 228 00:11:37,963 --> 00:11:40,966 Because they're so real in my head, you know, 229 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,769 I can see the characters and I'm like, oh yeah, this is a book. 230 00:11:43,769 --> 00:11:44,670 I didn't see it. 231 00:11:44,670 --> 00:11:50,176 I read it and, you know, good on you for creating these characters 232 00:11:50,176 --> 00:11:52,178 that are so real that I can visualize them 233 00:11:52,178 --> 00:11:55,181 and remember them, and they will stick with me forever. 234 00:11:55,381 --> 00:11:57,783 Oh, that's really lovely to hear because that's how I see it. 235 00:11:57,783 --> 00:12:02,021 When I write it, I see it and be, it's like there are a few producers 236 00:12:02,021 --> 00:12:05,091 looking at it at the moment, so I think it would make a great movie. 237 00:12:05,091 --> 00:12:09,795 You know, I suppose all authors think that that every book. But, 238 00:12:11,163 --> 00:12:12,031 actually 239 00:12:12,031 --> 00:12:15,034 my Pictures of You novel is being made into. 240 00:12:15,234 --> 00:12:17,770 Oh, it's been option for TV series at the moment. 241 00:12:17,770 --> 00:12:20,773 So congratulations. Yeah, yeah. 242 00:12:20,973 --> 00:12:24,944 So I'd love to see this one on screen because I think it's just such a, 243 00:12:24,944 --> 00:12:30,549 it's a, a thought provoking concept as well as a romantic and hopeful story. 244 00:12:30,549 --> 00:12:32,551 But there's that emotional depth. 245 00:12:32,551 --> 00:12:33,352 Yeah. 246 00:12:33,352 --> 00:12:37,723 Well, well, I'm wondering if you did much research on, you know, 247 00:12:38,190 --> 00:12:41,227 there's a point in the book where Fraser and Audrey are talking about 248 00:12:41,293 --> 00:12:44,296 the idea of the multiverse, you know, 249 00:12:44,463 --> 00:12:46,632 and really, they're talking about string theory. 250 00:12:46,632 --> 00:12:47,700 And so I'm just wondering, like, 251 00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:51,070 how much did you dig into string theory and this idea? 252 00:12:51,604 --> 00:12:55,274 I've always had a casual interest, just as an, you know, armchair, 253 00:12:56,642 --> 00:12:57,176 marathon. 254 00:12:57,176 --> 00:12:59,211 I don't have any science background. 255 00:12:59,211 --> 00:13:00,846 And I often think, gosh, 256 00:13:00,846 --> 00:13:03,849 I hope not too many scientists read this novel, but, you know, 257 00:13:04,950 --> 00:13:06,685 I'll be receiving some emails. 258 00:13:06,685 --> 00:13:11,724 But it it has always fascinated me, this idea of there 259 00:13:11,724 --> 00:13:15,394 being multiple universes and, 260 00:13:16,395 --> 00:13:18,230 I find it 261 00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:21,967 I find it just I just love that idea that we, 262 00:13:21,967 --> 00:13:24,970 I love this idea that we don't know who we're going to become 263 00:13:25,404 --> 00:13:29,508 and that in another, as you said, with your near-miss in the car, 264 00:13:29,608 --> 00:13:31,143 you know, we have near-misses 265 00:13:31,143 --> 00:13:34,880 all the time in our lives where we sort of get almost a fleeting glance 266 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,084 of another version of ourselves or something else that we could have done. 267 00:13:39,251 --> 00:13:39,518 Yeah. 268 00:13:39,518 --> 00:13:43,856 And, so I sort of love this idea of it all overlapping in time. 269 00:13:43,856 --> 00:13:49,261 And, you know, I did read a really fascinating article about, 270 00:13:49,461 --> 00:13:53,432 a concept called The Block Universe about all time 271 00:13:53,432 --> 00:13:58,137 existing now, and that at at all times we are sort of we are alive. 272 00:13:58,137 --> 00:14:00,906 We are dead. We are babies in one part of the universe. 273 00:14:00,906 --> 00:14:04,743 Now, we're a little six year old over here, and then here we are today. 274 00:14:04,743 --> 00:14:10,382 I'm 52 and I love that because that that I found that a very encouraging thing 275 00:14:10,382 --> 00:14:15,221 to imagine, having lost someone because I was thinking, you know, 276 00:14:15,221 --> 00:14:19,625 somewhere, somewhere Geoff is still alive and and that's how I feel. 277 00:14:19,625 --> 00:14:22,995 I sort of get the feeling that he's still around me somehow. 278 00:14:22,995 --> 00:14:24,630 It doesn't make sense to me. 279 00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:26,599 Not like. But, you know, I like to imagine that, 280 00:14:27,733 --> 00:14:29,869 I love this so much. 281 00:14:29,869 --> 00:14:33,906 And digging into this to me, like, I could get really geeky with you on this part. 282 00:14:34,974 --> 00:14:35,307 There's. 283 00:14:35,307 --> 00:14:38,844 At this point in the book that was so brilliant, where there are 284 00:14:38,844 --> 00:14:42,448 characters are in two different timelines, but they're in the same place, 285 00:14:43,215 --> 00:14:46,418 and they feel each other, you know, and, like, 286 00:14:46,418 --> 00:14:49,622 Parker comes back from the bathroom and she's like, I just it's a weird. 287 00:14:49,622 --> 00:14:51,390 I feel like she was there with me and like, 288 00:14:51,390 --> 00:14:54,627 she was in a different universe in another timeline. 289 00:14:54,827 --> 00:14:55,995 Yeah. 290 00:14:55,995 --> 00:14:57,529 Oh, no, I loved doing that. 291 00:14:57,529 --> 00:14:59,064 I love thinking about that. 292 00:14:59,064 --> 00:15:01,567 I was so impressed, too, because you didn't do too much of it. 293 00:15:01,567 --> 00:15:04,670 It was like just enough to make us think about it. 294 00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:06,739 But you didn't like. 295 00:15:06,739 --> 00:15:07,773 You didn't overdo it. 296 00:15:07,773 --> 00:15:08,274 It was great. 297 00:15:08,274 --> 00:15:09,241 Yeah, yeah. Oh. 298 00:15:09,241 --> 00:15:11,143 That's good. I'm so glad I got the balance right. 299 00:15:11,143 --> 00:15:12,978 That's again up to my editors. 300 00:15:15,114 --> 00:15:17,716 Well, I mean, yeah, everyone needs a good editor. 301 00:15:17,716 --> 00:15:19,551 The other thing I really loved about this, 302 00:15:19,551 --> 00:15:23,689 I recently just read another book that had different characters. 303 00:15:23,689 --> 00:15:26,292 So we would swap perspectives. 304 00:15:26,292 --> 00:15:29,762 And, you know, typically when I read a book that does that, 305 00:15:30,162 --> 00:15:32,765 we're rehashing from a different perspective, 306 00:15:32,765 --> 00:15:35,100 like we kind of go through the same scene, but, 307 00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:38,170 you know, first it's this character A and then we do a through character piece. 308 00:15:38,203 --> 00:15:39,972 So we see the same thing over and over. 309 00:15:39,972 --> 00:15:41,206 And you really didn't do that. 310 00:15:41,206 --> 00:15:44,944 Like you would literally pick up in the middle of a sentence, 311 00:15:44,944 --> 00:15:47,012 but now we're in the other characters head. 312 00:15:47,012 --> 00:15:52,051 Yeah, I, I feel like that's a lesson I learned, in my last book, actually 313 00:15:52,051 --> 00:15:56,188 doing pictures of you, because it's also, from both perspectives. 314 00:15:56,188 --> 00:16:01,827 And I think one of my editors made that point at some stage and said, you know, 315 00:16:01,827 --> 00:16:05,297 we need to make sure that at every point the story's progressing forward. 316 00:16:05,798 --> 00:16:08,334 You know, at times I would actually jump back in time. 317 00:16:08,334 --> 00:16:09,568 But that was a time line shift. 318 00:16:09,568 --> 00:16:13,605 But, it needed to continue to go forward no matter what had happened. 319 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:15,574 Which was great. 320 00:16:15,574 --> 00:16:18,711 Just to learn that because I think you can feel a bit stagnant. 321 00:16:18,711 --> 00:16:22,748 That's the trap with dual names, you know, can feel a little stagnant 322 00:16:23,382 --> 00:16:27,419 if we are rehashing, from somebody else's point of view. 323 00:16:27,419 --> 00:16:31,256 But there are ways to bring in that other point of view in conversation 324 00:16:31,256 --> 00:16:32,658 or something like that later on. 325 00:16:32,658 --> 00:16:36,795 If you need to get, into that, that other person's head. 326 00:16:36,795 --> 00:16:40,532 And I think it's really important when we write any scene to be thinking, 327 00:16:40,632 --> 00:16:43,836 who needs to be telling this part of the story? 328 00:16:43,836 --> 00:16:45,304 Who has the 329 00:16:45,304 --> 00:16:46,638 the most stakes 330 00:16:46,638 --> 00:16:49,708 at this point in the story, and they're the one that should be speaking. 331 00:16:49,708 --> 00:16:53,312 So there's a whole those kinds of little tricks 332 00:16:53,312 --> 00:16:57,483 that you learn over time when you're, you know, developing as a writer. 333 00:16:58,117 --> 00:17:00,152 I wonder if there were times when you were writing 334 00:17:00,152 --> 00:17:02,855 and all of a sudden it just switched to the other character. 335 00:17:03,822 --> 00:17:06,625 I think they were they were a couple of times where I went back 336 00:17:06,625 --> 00:17:07,292 and changed. 337 00:17:07,292 --> 00:17:10,295 I moved the whole chapter into the other characters voice. 338 00:17:10,362 --> 00:17:13,932 Yeah. We partly for that. 339 00:17:13,966 --> 00:17:17,302 The reason I just outline, but it was also sometimes just went, oh, 340 00:17:17,302 --> 00:17:18,837 because I am a big rewriter. 341 00:17:18,837 --> 00:17:23,375 So my, my structural edit is usually just such an enormous endeavor. 342 00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:27,780 And I do a very messy lot first draft. 343 00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:31,517 So I like to sort of get everything down on something down on the page to 344 00:17:31,517 --> 00:17:32,284 then work with. 345 00:17:32,284 --> 00:17:37,056 And and I think there were will they were whole chapters 346 00:17:37,056 --> 00:17:40,059 that that were deleted and 347 00:17:40,225 --> 00:17:43,896 just so that if you do something like that, that's quite radical, 348 00:17:44,229 --> 00:17:45,697 then you might find, 349 00:17:45,697 --> 00:17:46,398 oh, now I've got, 350 00:17:46,398 --> 00:17:48,967 you know, so much in a row from one person, 351 00:17:48,967 --> 00:17:51,103 so I need to really balance it out differently. 352 00:17:51,103 --> 00:17:52,805 And sometimes 353 00:17:52,805 --> 00:17:56,108 it was so much more powerful once you put it in the other perspective. 354 00:17:56,675 --> 00:17:58,911 Yeah, yeah. Interesting. 355 00:17:58,911 --> 00:18:01,914 I find sometimes when I'm writing, all of a sudden it will literally just 356 00:18:02,047 --> 00:18:03,782 the perspective will switch. 357 00:18:03,782 --> 00:18:07,052 And when I was a younger writer, I thought, oh, I'm bad at this, 358 00:18:07,052 --> 00:18:10,055 I need to, and I would force myself to stay in that lane. 359 00:18:10,355 --> 00:18:11,123 Yeah. 360 00:18:11,123 --> 00:18:13,592 You know, and that's what I was being taught in school. 361 00:18:13,592 --> 00:18:18,197 But in following your heart when you're writing is so important. 362 00:18:18,597 --> 00:18:19,298 That's right. 363 00:18:19,298 --> 00:18:20,666 I go every year. 364 00:18:20,666 --> 00:18:26,171 I volunteer as a reading ambassador for this local, government, 365 00:18:26,171 --> 00:18:31,143 in Australia and, visit, we call them primary schools. 366 00:18:31,143 --> 00:18:35,280 You call them elementary schools and talk to students about writing. 367 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,250 And I remember going in last year and and one of this, 368 00:18:38,317 --> 00:18:42,754 the kids asked about how much planning to do and how much of an outline I have, 369 00:18:42,888 --> 00:18:44,089 because that's what they taught. 370 00:18:44,089 --> 00:18:46,592 Never start writing a story without having an outline. 371 00:18:46,592 --> 00:18:48,961 And here's the beginning and middle and end and all of that. 372 00:18:48,961 --> 00:18:50,929 And I of courses. 373 00:18:50,929 --> 00:18:55,701 So yeah, yeah, yeah I do I a slope a document and I knew that 374 00:18:55,701 --> 00:18:59,071 the teachers were sitting there thinking, oh what is she saying? But 375 00:19:00,472 --> 00:19:01,039 but I just 376 00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:04,977 needed them to know that they're there are the rules that we're taught. 377 00:19:04,977 --> 00:19:07,946 But then there's always other ways to get a story on a page. 378 00:19:07,946 --> 00:19:11,283 And really, a lot of it is experimenting with what works 379 00:19:11,283 --> 00:19:14,286 best for you. 380 00:19:15,020 --> 00:19:17,156 But I will say I'm also a pantser. 381 00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:20,159 But probably not a very effective one. 382 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:22,861 And I find that like I go back 383 00:19:22,861 --> 00:19:26,598 and I read like that shitty first draft and I'm like oh this is terrible. 384 00:19:26,598 --> 00:19:28,500 And then I have a really hard time. 385 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:32,804 You know, getting back into it because I'm too hard on myself now. 386 00:19:32,804 --> 00:19:34,006 I think we all are. 387 00:19:34,006 --> 00:19:35,908 And the problem is, 388 00:19:35,908 --> 00:19:38,644 I mean, every time I sit down and write a new book, 389 00:19:38,644 --> 00:19:40,979 I look at my first draft and think, well, that's it. 390 00:19:40,979 --> 00:19:42,814 I forgotten how to write, haven't I? 391 00:19:42,814 --> 00:19:44,516 To what is this? 392 00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:48,053 And it's and it's very much because you've just come through, 393 00:19:48,053 --> 00:19:52,024 I don't know, 12, 15 drafts of the previous book 394 00:19:52,024 --> 00:19:56,428 and it's been edited and it's, you know, there's been several sets of fingerprints 395 00:19:56,428 --> 00:20:00,499 all over that on the book, and now it's on the shelf and it looks fantastic. 396 00:20:00,499 --> 00:20:02,334 And you forget that 397 00:20:02,334 --> 00:20:06,271 that book two was an absolute mess the first time you wrote a draft. 398 00:20:06,271 --> 00:20:10,209 So it's really about remembering, because we'll only compare our first draft 399 00:20:10,209 --> 00:20:13,345 to first draft and compare anything at all. 400 00:20:13,512 --> 00:20:13,745 Yeah. 401 00:20:13,745 --> 00:20:16,782 Because it's just I don't know 402 00:20:16,782 --> 00:20:19,985 if you've ever seen that video by IRA Glass on the Taste gap. 403 00:20:20,752 --> 00:20:23,755 It's such a great little video to watch. 404 00:20:23,822 --> 00:20:27,392 A couple of minutes long, and it sort of changed my whole perspective 405 00:20:27,392 --> 00:20:31,763 on this because, he talks about the fact that when we writers 406 00:20:32,130 --> 00:20:35,100 and readers, we read something and we know we can, 407 00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:40,973 we can recognize because we've got really good taste in, in reading and writing, 408 00:20:41,139 --> 00:20:44,276 so we can recognize what reads well and looks great. 409 00:20:44,643 --> 00:20:48,981 And then we look at our own first attempt and think, well, this is not that 410 00:20:48,981 --> 00:20:53,552 I can see this gap between what I've written and what I wish it was like, 411 00:20:54,052 --> 00:20:58,423 and that where people fall down is that they they get to that stage 412 00:20:58,423 --> 00:21:00,158 and then they give up because they're thinking, 413 00:21:00,158 --> 00:21:02,628 I could never possibly reach that point, 414 00:21:02,628 --> 00:21:06,131 forgetting that that everything we're reading was once at that point, too. 415 00:21:06,131 --> 00:21:09,134 I mean, I don't know if there were any writers that are able 416 00:21:09,134 --> 00:21:12,004 to put down an almost perfect first draft, but I've never met one. 417 00:21:14,373 --> 00:21:17,676 You know, it's much more common that we're all just struggling 418 00:21:17,676 --> 00:21:21,947 through multiple drafts and all sitting there thinking, I don't know, 419 00:21:21,947 --> 00:21:26,385 I can't write like my him or like her or, you know, it's it's such, 420 00:21:26,451 --> 00:21:29,721 we're kind of walking through this maze 421 00:21:29,721 --> 00:21:32,724 of self-doubt all the time, and. 422 00:21:32,891 --> 00:21:37,029 Yeah, that's even start submitting it to publishers for rejection and, 423 00:21:37,062 --> 00:21:38,430 you know, all of that sort of thing. 424 00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:41,033 So, you know, oh, yeah, 425 00:21:41,033 --> 00:21:42,834 we love rejection. 426 00:21:42,834 --> 00:21:44,970 Yeah. It's a badge of honor, right? 427 00:21:44,970 --> 00:21:48,240 You get to 50 rejections and then you're like, okay, I've made it now. 428 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,775 Now I can start doing it. 429 00:21:49,775 --> 00:21:52,144 Yeah. 430 00:21:52,144 --> 00:21:54,212 How many drafts or how long did it take you 431 00:21:54,212 --> 00:21:58,350 to write this book once you finally, like, had your first draft in place? 432 00:21:58,717 --> 00:22:01,253 I think I did. 433 00:22:01,253 --> 00:22:05,324 Oh, that was probably I think there were about 12 drafts eventually. 434 00:22:06,024 --> 00:22:08,560 That includes, you know, those last little ones where you're looking over it. 435 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,596 And for copy editing and that sort of thing. 436 00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:13,332 And of course, the one where we've had to change it 437 00:22:13,332 --> 00:22:18,070 from a strict, firm Australian English to US English and all of that, things 438 00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:22,441 like the the term caravan, we call it a caravan, you call it a camper trailer, 439 00:22:23,342 --> 00:22:26,611 you know, all that sort of stuff we've had to do work on. 440 00:22:26,912 --> 00:22:28,580 That's always very funny. But, 441 00:22:29,915 --> 00:22:32,684 I have, I mean, I always with each book, 442 00:22:32,684 --> 00:22:36,421 I think I delete about 30 or 40,000 words every time. 443 00:22:36,421 --> 00:22:38,690 And, and, you know, the book's not long. 444 00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:41,693 It ends up being, I don't know, 90,000 or something. 445 00:22:41,993 --> 00:22:45,530 And and that is just words that were in an earlier draft 446 00:22:45,530 --> 00:22:49,201 that I put in another file, another file and never look at again. 447 00:22:49,434 --> 00:22:51,002 And so, yeah. 448 00:22:51,002 --> 00:22:54,806 So I'm very ruthless when it comes to what I cut out. 449 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,876 I think really stories are made 450 00:22:58,310 --> 00:23:02,280 by the words on the page and the words that you delete as well. 451 00:23:02,981 --> 00:23:07,119 Because the, the words that stay in sometimes because we just cling to them 452 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,555 and think, no, I wrote that I spent, you know, two weeks on that paragraph. 453 00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:13,725 Yeah, yeah, killing our darlings. 454 00:23:13,725 --> 00:23:14,693 I think that's it. 455 00:23:14,693 --> 00:23:18,630 And sometimes those decisions are the most important ones that we make. 456 00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:20,966 Indeed. Yeah. 457 00:23:20,966 --> 00:23:25,604 Well, in terms of wordsmithing, the way you write about 458 00:23:25,604 --> 00:23:28,039 music is so gorgeous. 459 00:23:28,039 --> 00:23:31,543 And of course, I, you know, researched you a little bit and discovered 460 00:23:31,543 --> 00:23:35,814 that you actually did write a, musical screenplay. 461 00:23:36,281 --> 00:23:39,818 Yes, well, I did I mean, I worked with a composer to write that, 462 00:23:39,818 --> 00:23:43,722 but so I and I did I had years and years of piano lessons 463 00:23:43,722 --> 00:23:46,725 growing up, and I was always in bands and orchestras and, 464 00:23:46,925 --> 00:23:51,329 and then when I wrote my teenage novel unrequited, it's called 465 00:23:51,329 --> 00:23:55,400 I wrote it when my daughter was 14 and hated writing, but loved Harry styles, 466 00:23:56,435 --> 00:23:58,837 as she's 25 and turned up on 467 00:23:58,837 --> 00:24:01,873 the doorstep in tears this morning after listening to his latest album. 468 00:24:01,873 --> 00:24:04,643 So that has not changed, and I wasn't going to say 469 00:24:04,643 --> 00:24:06,278 I was going to ask that very question. 470 00:24:06,278 --> 00:24:07,712 What does she think of his latest? Yeah. 471 00:24:07,712 --> 00:24:08,146 Oh no. 472 00:24:08,146 --> 00:24:13,251 She's so sick of telling me that we we ended up having an access to it 473 00:24:13,251 --> 00:24:16,788 earlier than some of the countries because it was midnight release here, 474 00:24:16,788 --> 00:24:20,592 and there were people on TikTok saying they had seven hours to wait. 475 00:24:20,592 --> 00:24:23,528 And, you know, she I don't think she had any sleep at all. 476 00:24:23,528 --> 00:24:26,331 Well, anyway. 477 00:24:26,331 --> 00:24:28,567 Oh, they show later in the year. 478 00:24:28,567 --> 00:24:34,372 But, so I wrote that and that novel I wanted to show her that reading 479 00:24:34,372 --> 00:24:37,442 could be fun because she was struggling through all her English texts at school. 480 00:24:37,442 --> 00:24:41,880 And I said, you know, reading is just an escape into a fantasy world. 481 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,451 So I'll write a story about a boy band and a young singer and songwriter 482 00:24:47,052 --> 00:24:50,388 who hates their music and thinks she's too good for it, 483 00:24:50,388 --> 00:24:51,723 and then ends up falling in love 484 00:24:51,723 --> 00:24:55,660 with one of them and co-writing a song with one of them, one based on Harry. 485 00:24:55,660 --> 00:24:58,964 Anyway, friend to who I met in high school, 486 00:24:58,964 --> 00:25:01,333 who is an award winning composer in Australia. 487 00:25:01,333 --> 00:25:04,069 Sally Whitwell read the novel and she said, look, 488 00:25:04,069 --> 00:25:07,839 I've never been interested in boy bands or even in boys at all. 489 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:13,945 And, she said, I love this story and would love to write a musical. 490 00:25:13,945 --> 00:25:15,413 So we've actually 491 00:25:15,413 --> 00:25:20,051 just sent off the proposal this week to have a to, to our old high school 492 00:25:20,252 --> 00:25:23,221 to see if they might, put this on next year, 493 00:25:23,455 --> 00:25:25,423 which would just be amazing because we could be, 494 00:25:25,423 --> 00:25:27,926 you know, two former students, right? Yeah. 495 00:25:29,094 --> 00:25:31,997 And, so cool, really fun. 496 00:25:31,997 --> 00:25:34,666 But I just love telling stories in different ways. 497 00:25:34,666 --> 00:25:38,670 And to see, to be able to hand over those characters to someone else 498 00:25:38,670 --> 00:25:39,871 and let go a little bit. 499 00:25:39,871 --> 00:25:42,841 And I'm learning that with the TV series as well. 500 00:25:43,108 --> 00:25:45,343 I said to the producer, 501 00:25:45,343 --> 00:25:48,213 you know, we often argue that the book is always better 502 00:25:48,213 --> 00:25:52,050 than, than the screen version of anything because we're writers and readers, 503 00:25:52,050 --> 00:25:53,919 and that's the story we want to stick to. 504 00:25:53,919 --> 00:25:55,120 But I really said to her, 505 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,189 I would love for the TV series to take it further and be better. 506 00:25:58,189 --> 00:25:58,623 And, you know, 507 00:25:58,623 --> 00:26:02,427 I want every iteration of this story to just grow and continue to develop. 508 00:26:02,961 --> 00:26:06,097 And that might mean making changes and that's that's fine. 509 00:26:06,097 --> 00:26:09,000 I love that collaborative approach. 510 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,002 Yeah, I think that's really cool. 511 00:26:11,002 --> 00:26:11,870 And you're right. 512 00:26:11,870 --> 00:26:15,240 I mean, frankly, there's very few or I can say, yeah, the 513 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,612 the TV show or the series of the movie was as good a or if not better. 514 00:26:21,112 --> 00:26:24,149 But I think you're right, it's about making it its own thing. 515 00:26:25,116 --> 00:26:26,751 And letting it evolve. 516 00:26:26,751 --> 00:26:28,753 Yes. Because that's really what we're looking for, right? 517 00:26:28,753 --> 00:26:30,055 We've already experienced the book. 518 00:26:30,055 --> 00:26:31,122 Now we want something more. 519 00:26:31,122 --> 00:26:32,624 It's I think it's the soon 520 00:26:32,624 --> 00:26:35,794 as soon as the book is published, it's no longer entirely yours. 521 00:26:35,794 --> 00:26:38,897 You've handed it over to readers, and it's exists in their minds 522 00:26:39,464 --> 00:26:40,899 and in every reader's mind. 523 00:26:40,899 --> 00:26:42,867 They're picturing it slightly differently. 524 00:26:42,867 --> 00:26:46,171 And and that's fascinating to 100%. 525 00:26:46,171 --> 00:26:48,473 Oh, and I love that so much. 526 00:26:48,473 --> 00:26:49,941 Yeah. Yeah. 527 00:26:49,941 --> 00:26:55,046 Well I want to talk a little bit about this idea of creativity 528 00:26:55,513 --> 00:26:59,551 and actually you know it before we get to creativity let's talk about academia. 529 00:27:00,619 --> 00:27:04,122 Yes. Really. 530 00:27:04,122 --> 00:27:04,889 Yeah. 531 00:27:04,889 --> 00:27:07,425 We're all right Charles. Like why. Yeah. 532 00:27:07,425 --> 00:27:08,660 You got to make it dry. 533 00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:10,462 We're going to make it not dry. 534 00:27:10,462 --> 00:27:13,898 So I mean part of the story and our, our main character, 535 00:27:13,898 --> 00:27:19,170 one of our main characters Audrey, is she is in her doctoral program. 536 00:27:19,170 --> 00:27:22,440 And you know, someone plagiarize and steals from her. 537 00:27:23,108 --> 00:27:27,012 And this, this happens so often in academia with women. 538 00:27:27,479 --> 00:27:28,713 Yes it does. 539 00:27:28,713 --> 00:27:31,182 In fact, when I started researching that, I was horrified. 540 00:27:31,182 --> 00:27:36,121 But when I was turning up, it was just the stories of of academic plagiarism. 541 00:27:36,354 --> 00:27:41,092 You know, if you stiffy look that up, you'll be there all day writing about it. 542 00:27:41,159 --> 00:27:42,961 Oh. Yeah. Yeah. 543 00:27:42,961 --> 00:27:44,929 And so my daughter has just handed 544 00:27:44,929 --> 00:27:48,667 in her doctoral thesis, and she's done a thesis. 545 00:27:48,667 --> 00:27:50,835 She's doing criminology, and, 546 00:27:50,835 --> 00:27:53,972 she helped me with Pictures of You, which is a book about coercive control. 547 00:27:53,972 --> 00:27:56,441 So she was sort of my academic advisor for that. 548 00:27:56,441 --> 00:27:59,344 She's now the academic advisor for the TV series. 549 00:27:59,344 --> 00:28:02,347 I feel like I can just step out of it at this point and hand it over. 550 00:28:02,747 --> 00:28:03,815 You're like, go for it. 551 00:28:03,815 --> 00:28:08,053 Yeah, but my husband, too, was a, professor of history, 552 00:28:08,053 --> 00:28:11,990 so I've been surrounded by the two of them, in academia. 553 00:28:12,390 --> 00:28:17,195 And while neither of them have come across this plagiarism, you know, happening 554 00:28:17,195 --> 00:28:22,233 in their own careers, they are aware of it happening that he was aware and she is. 555 00:28:22,233 --> 00:28:26,738 And, there's this position of power. 556 00:28:26,738 --> 00:28:30,742 And when you're a young woman in academia or in any field, you know, 557 00:28:31,142 --> 00:28:35,246 there was this sort of sense for Audrey in the book of, 558 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,583 you know, should she can what can she do about it? 559 00:28:38,583 --> 00:28:40,085 Can she what's going to happen? 560 00:28:40,085 --> 00:28:41,453 What are the ramifications? 561 00:28:41,453 --> 00:28:44,255 If she does stand up for herself. 562 00:28:44,255 --> 00:28:48,426 And so that's first what happened, happened to her. 563 00:28:48,860 --> 00:28:54,733 But then I think it was important that after a while, she sort of learns that 564 00:28:54,733 --> 00:28:59,971 she then continued to allow that one event to stop her from chasing those dreams. 565 00:28:59,971 --> 00:29:03,875 And I think that's what we can do sometimes if we have something 566 00:29:03,908 --> 00:29:07,712 terrible happen to us and we are a victim in that. 567 00:29:07,912 --> 00:29:11,082 And and, you know, that is the truth. 568 00:29:11,082 --> 00:29:13,485 And it's it's just so unfair. 569 00:29:13,485 --> 00:29:15,720 And then at some point, 570 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,990 there may be opportunities for us to dig ourselves out of it anyway. 571 00:29:18,990 --> 00:29:21,226 And she hadn't taken those opportunities. 572 00:29:21,226 --> 00:29:25,363 She'd also been very much, let down by a friend who was another 573 00:29:25,363 --> 00:29:29,834 who was a man, at the time as well, which didn't help. 574 00:29:29,834 --> 00:29:33,772 And so I really wanted to her to rescue herself 575 00:29:33,905 --> 00:29:37,342 and yeah, so on that path and also, 576 00:29:38,209 --> 00:29:41,212 you know, get him back for the for the plagiarism 577 00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:44,549 that was just infuriating me at this point, you know, that 578 00:29:44,849 --> 00:29:46,084 anyone could have done this. 579 00:29:46,084 --> 00:29:52,724 And, so having that layer of I mean, that's again another whole layer 580 00:29:52,724 --> 00:29:57,662 to the story that I didn't plan for or until it sort of unfolded. 581 00:29:58,163 --> 00:30:00,932 Yeah. In the process of writing. Nice. 582 00:30:00,932 --> 00:30:02,000 I was wondering about that. 583 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,102 You know, what came first, right. 584 00:30:04,102 --> 00:30:08,373 And it's so and she really is this perfect example 585 00:30:08,373 --> 00:30:12,577 of someone who is almost using this pain in this fear as an excuse 586 00:30:13,011 --> 00:30:16,381 to not let herself move forward, because at some point 587 00:30:16,381 --> 00:30:18,249 she has to take responsibility for that. 588 00:30:18,249 --> 00:30:19,384 And she does that. 589 00:30:19,384 --> 00:30:19,684 Yeah. 590 00:30:19,684 --> 00:30:22,587 And I think it's one of those cases where two things can be true. 591 00:30:22,587 --> 00:30:26,191 I think as soon as I first heard that notion 592 00:30:26,191 --> 00:30:29,460 that we can hold two truths at once and that they can be opposing, 593 00:30:29,460 --> 00:30:33,231 it helped me with so many things in life, you know, to help understand things. 594 00:30:33,231 --> 00:30:39,204 And so it can be true that she is very much a victim and she is gaslit 595 00:30:39,204 --> 00:30:43,741 by this, this person and all kinds of I mean, it's just terrible what he did. 596 00:30:43,741 --> 00:30:45,844 And it's not just her that he was doing it to. 597 00:30:45,844 --> 00:30:47,946 And so that's true. 598 00:30:47,946 --> 00:30:50,982 And that's just exceptionally unfair. 599 00:30:51,382 --> 00:30:55,720 But it can also be true that she then at different times 600 00:30:55,820 --> 00:30:59,791 has does have choices and refuses to to take those risks. 601 00:30:59,791 --> 00:31:04,362 And so the, you know, it then becomes a question of is she going 602 00:31:04,362 --> 00:31:08,399 to, you know, how long is she going to allow that to influence her life. 603 00:31:08,633 --> 00:31:10,034 Yeah. And I think it's 604 00:31:10,034 --> 00:31:13,471 when these big things happen to us where we do experience a loss. 605 00:31:13,972 --> 00:31:19,010 You know, speaking of Harry styles, he, he came out yesterday with some, 606 00:31:19,010 --> 00:31:21,212 some comments about Liam Payne's death 607 00:31:21,212 --> 00:31:25,116 and the fact that losing his friend and bandmate, 608 00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:30,655 caused him to to look at his own life and to live life to the full. 609 00:31:30,655 --> 00:31:31,923 And I think that's what happens. 610 00:31:31,923 --> 00:31:36,661 You you get this big wake up call sometimes through loss, 611 00:31:36,895 --> 00:31:42,233 where you just realize that life is so incredibly fragile and precious. 612 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:42,934 Yeah. 613 00:31:42,934 --> 00:31:47,472 And, and I don't say you should live every day as if it's your last. 614 00:31:47,472 --> 00:31:50,475 I think that's exhausting and impossible and just unrealistic 615 00:31:50,541 --> 00:31:54,445 because sometimes terrible and, you know, and sometimes you just lying in bed 616 00:31:54,445 --> 00:31:55,847 watching Netflix, and that's fine. 617 00:31:55,847 --> 00:31:59,250 You know, it's it's you don't have to be like that every day. 618 00:31:59,250 --> 00:32:03,021 But certainly I think overall, if you can have that sort of, 619 00:32:03,354 --> 00:32:07,358 just a sense that, that we're lucky to have this life 620 00:32:07,358 --> 00:32:12,797 and, you, we can we can only do the best with what we've got. 621 00:32:12,897 --> 00:32:14,165 But let's do that best. 622 00:32:14,165 --> 00:32:19,137 Let's let's sort of, you know, make the most of what we have and the time 100%. 623 00:32:19,170 --> 00:32:19,904 Yeah. 624 00:32:19,904 --> 00:32:22,173 Well, then you mentioned earlier this idea of resilience, 625 00:32:22,173 --> 00:32:25,043 like you cannot become resilient without hardship. 626 00:32:26,044 --> 00:32:26,844 Yeah. 627 00:32:26,844 --> 00:32:27,946 I do think that's true. 628 00:32:27,946 --> 00:32:29,414 I think 629 00:32:29,414 --> 00:32:32,684 the people that I see who have the most resilience 630 00:32:32,684 --> 00:32:35,420 are the ones who've been through something particularly difficult. 631 00:32:35,420 --> 00:32:39,190 And and of course we all have different 632 00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:42,226 coping mechanisms, different support systems around us. 633 00:32:43,428 --> 00:32:45,563 We are at different socio economic levels. 634 00:32:45,563 --> 00:32:47,932 So I think it's much more complex than that. 635 00:32:47,932 --> 00:32:50,868 You know, there are people who are well placed 636 00:32:50,868 --> 00:32:54,539 almost to have something happen because if it does happen, they've, 637 00:32:54,539 --> 00:32:57,575 they've but, you know, a lot of other things are still going 638 00:32:57,575 --> 00:32:58,943 okay for them in their lives. 639 00:32:58,943 --> 00:33:01,813 And then there are others who it's the absolute last straw 640 00:33:01,813 --> 00:33:03,381 that the same event has happened to them. 641 00:33:03,381 --> 00:33:06,384 And so I think, you know, we've got to be careful about, 642 00:33:06,818 --> 00:33:11,522 looking at people and, sort of judging how resilient 643 00:33:11,522 --> 00:33:15,460 they are, mental health, all that sort of stuff, you know. 644 00:33:15,460 --> 00:33:16,761 Sure. 645 00:33:16,761 --> 00:33:19,397 Yeah. But I sorry. 646 00:33:20,598 --> 00:33:21,766 Go ahead. 647 00:33:21,766 --> 00:33:24,502 Oh, no, I was just going to say I, I do think, 648 00:33:24,502 --> 00:33:29,140 I just admire when people are able to sort of 649 00:33:29,140 --> 00:33:35,013 turn the ship around and, and take what's happened and grow from it. 650 00:33:35,346 --> 00:33:38,816 I've actually struggled a little bit with this in my own life, in that 651 00:33:39,150 --> 00:33:43,888 I have a little bit of survivor guilt, because I look at 652 00:33:44,122 --> 00:33:48,393 what's happening in my life now, you know, this career success, for example. 653 00:33:49,127 --> 00:33:51,796 And I think, well, I'm writing about grief. 654 00:33:51,796 --> 00:33:55,733 You know, if I if I hadn't lost my husband, would we be sitting? 655 00:33:55,733 --> 00:33:58,736 We wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation because I wouldn't. 656 00:33:58,970 --> 00:33:59,937 Oh yeah. 657 00:33:59,937 --> 00:34:03,341 And and so I've had to really work on thinking about Jeff 658 00:34:03,341 --> 00:34:06,778 and how supportive he was of my career and how much hope he had for me, and, 659 00:34:07,311 --> 00:34:09,514 and how proud he'd be of all of this. 660 00:34:09,514 --> 00:34:11,082 You know, it's it's 661 00:34:11,082 --> 00:34:13,985 it, but it is it has been something I've had to wrestle with. 662 00:34:13,985 --> 00:34:15,153 Yeah. 663 00:34:15,153 --> 00:34:17,221 Well, and you you mentioned that in the book. 664 00:34:17,221 --> 00:34:17,422 Come in. 665 00:34:17,422 --> 00:34:20,792 Our characters deal with this too, this idea that if we move on 666 00:34:21,125 --> 00:34:25,530 and become happy, we've somehow tainted the memory of them, and we we lose them. 667 00:34:25,530 --> 00:34:28,299 We're we're trying so desperately to hold on that. 668 00:34:28,299 --> 00:34:29,400 But leaving that 669 00:34:30,568 --> 00:34:31,402 well, letting 670 00:34:31,402 --> 00:34:34,405 that pain take a back seat feels like a losing them. 671 00:34:34,405 --> 00:34:34,772 Yeah. 672 00:34:34,772 --> 00:34:35,706 And it's and I 673 00:34:35,706 --> 00:34:38,709 it was so sort of liberating when I learned that that's not the case 674 00:34:39,077 --> 00:34:41,679 when I think that, you know, when I really thought about it, 675 00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,450 I remember the first time I smiled, I was I went out for dinner a few weeks after 676 00:34:45,450 --> 00:34:49,754 Jeff died with his friends that I knew, Kylie and, we had dinner. 677 00:34:49,921 --> 00:34:50,922 We had a great night. 678 00:34:50,922 --> 00:34:54,392 I was walking back to the car and smiling, thinking about something that she had 679 00:34:54,392 --> 00:35:00,298 said, and I suddenly felt so guilty that I had felt happy in that moment. 680 00:35:00,298 --> 00:35:02,533 I'd almost 681 00:35:02,533 --> 00:35:05,136 forgotten the magnitude of what was happening. 682 00:35:05,136 --> 00:35:09,140 And then I thought, if Jeff was watching this, he would be sitting there 683 00:35:09,140 --> 00:35:14,045 waiting for that first smile, desperately hoping to see that glimpse of happiness. 684 00:35:14,045 --> 00:35:18,783 Because the last thing that our loved ones would want for us is for us to remain 685 00:35:18,783 --> 00:35:21,953 miserable for the rest of our lives without them, you know it's right. 686 00:35:21,953 --> 00:35:22,353 It's. 687 00:35:22,353 --> 00:35:25,256 And it was such an important lesson for me to learn. 688 00:35:25,256 --> 00:35:29,327 And so I used to then strive for just little life 689 00:35:29,327 --> 00:35:33,030 affirming moments in any day, and just looking for the light 690 00:35:33,164 --> 00:35:36,367 in the midst of all this darkness that I was feeling 691 00:35:36,734 --> 00:35:40,471 and that then became a bit of a guiding principle for the next few years. 692 00:35:40,471 --> 00:35:43,541 And, it really did help me to. 693 00:35:43,541 --> 00:35:45,610 And again, you're holding those two things at once. 694 00:35:45,610 --> 00:35:47,311 The loss and the hope. 695 00:35:47,311 --> 00:35:48,846 And I think they go hand in hand. 696 00:35:48,846 --> 00:35:52,316 And they have to because that's, you know, that's what we're here for us 697 00:35:52,316 --> 00:35:55,319 as humans, I think to to continue on. 698 00:35:55,319 --> 00:35:56,320 Yeah. Yeah. 699 00:35:57,321 --> 00:35:58,656 And the creativity piece of it, 700 00:35:58,656 --> 00:36:02,660 which I started to talk about earlier, is so I think 701 00:36:03,861 --> 00:36:08,499 creativity comes to us in bursts, but especially when we're feeling sad 702 00:36:08,499 --> 00:36:11,502 or if there's something really deep happening in our lives, 703 00:36:11,502 --> 00:36:15,806 it moves us toward the creativity that gives us this, this escape. 704 00:36:16,908 --> 00:36:17,475 It does. 705 00:36:17,475 --> 00:36:23,214 I, I one of the things that I picked up since my loss is photography 706 00:36:23,214 --> 00:36:26,250 and I'd never been a photographer 707 00:36:26,250 --> 00:36:30,888 and then a couple of years after Jeff died, I sort of fell into that as a hobby. 708 00:36:31,222 --> 00:36:35,493 And then it became just this immense joy in my life. 709 00:36:35,493 --> 00:36:36,894 I just couldn't get enough of it 710 00:36:36,894 --> 00:36:39,897 and became quite a geek, actually, for photography. And, 711 00:36:41,399 --> 00:36:43,568 and then the musical was another one. 712 00:36:43,568 --> 00:36:46,604 And one of the most joyous experiences of my life 713 00:36:46,604 --> 00:36:50,374 was when we staged that musical in, in my daughter's school a few years ago. 714 00:36:51,075 --> 00:36:54,345 And, I went through this phase 715 00:36:54,345 --> 00:36:59,183 of trying to learn art, and I, you know, I'm not an artist in that way. 716 00:36:59,183 --> 00:36:59,450 At all, 717 00:36:59,450 --> 00:37:03,788 but I felt this real sense of wanting to get all of this emotion out somehow. 718 00:37:03,788 --> 00:37:07,925 And and before I wrote my earlier book, The Last Love, 719 00:37:07,925 --> 00:37:11,429 it felt like I had to go through all these other phases of experimenting 720 00:37:11,429 --> 00:37:16,634 with different types of creativity and art and music and all of it just. 721 00:37:16,634 --> 00:37:19,904 And I'm sure that was just a way that my body was or my brain 722 00:37:19,904 --> 00:37:23,174 was, was processing things that I couldn't yet 723 00:37:23,174 --> 00:37:26,310 put into words at that point and which I now have put into words. 724 00:37:26,377 --> 00:37:28,579 And I have indeed. 725 00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:32,283 You're not trolling photography forums, are you? 726 00:37:32,283 --> 00:37:33,951 Oh, I'm always in photography. 727 00:37:33,951 --> 00:37:36,954 There's such a cesspool, though. 728 00:37:38,723 --> 00:37:39,657 Oh, no. 729 00:37:39,657 --> 00:37:40,591 It's. Yeah. 730 00:37:40,591 --> 00:37:44,562 In fact, one of the things that I really, 731 00:37:44,562 --> 00:37:49,367 have made into a hobby is taking photos of the Aurora australis. 732 00:37:49,367 --> 00:37:52,270 Oh, okay. So astrophotography? 733 00:37:52,270 --> 00:37:53,304 Yeah. Yeah, totally. 734 00:37:53,304 --> 00:37:54,538 We've got the southern lights 735 00:37:54,538 --> 00:37:57,541 and you've got the northern lights, but, ours are better. 736 00:37:58,075 --> 00:38:00,811 Oh, no, that's 737 00:38:00,811 --> 00:38:03,180 actually I really, really want to say the Northern Lights. 738 00:38:03,180 --> 00:38:06,417 That's definitely, you know, bucket list stuff, but, 739 00:38:07,084 --> 00:38:10,087 it's that that I think, I mean, I've stood out in the middle 740 00:38:10,288 --> 00:38:14,759 of a country road in the dark, just crying from from how incredible it is. 741 00:38:14,759 --> 00:38:19,497 And, and I think when I, when Jeff first died, I remember going for a walk 742 00:38:19,497 --> 00:38:20,231 and it was beautiful. 743 00:38:20,231 --> 00:38:22,867 It was springtime and we were walking by a lake and all of this. 744 00:38:22,867 --> 00:38:24,869 And I remember looking at it and thinking, 745 00:38:24,869 --> 00:38:29,073 I can see with my eyes that that is beautiful, but I'm feeling nothing. 746 00:38:29,073 --> 00:38:32,743 I'm just feeling absolute stone cold, just nothing. 747 00:38:32,743 --> 00:38:34,779 And I, and I remember thinking, what do I do? 748 00:38:34,779 --> 00:38:38,482 Do I just, do I just stay at home until I stop feeling something, 749 00:38:38,482 --> 00:38:43,387 or do I just keep going out into the world until I get this spark of healing back? 750 00:38:43,888 --> 00:38:47,058 And obviously I chose the latter, and it was through photography 751 00:38:47,058 --> 00:38:48,292 that I got that back. 752 00:38:48,292 --> 00:38:50,628 And I remember during the pandemic, 753 00:38:50,628 --> 00:38:54,298 when we'd be allowed to go out once a day for a one hour walk or something. 754 00:38:54,298 --> 00:38:57,868 We had some really strict, lockdown rules in Australia 755 00:38:58,202 --> 00:39:02,606 and the that that's when I fell for photography, really. 756 00:39:02,606 --> 00:39:04,809 And I would forget we were in a pandemic. 757 00:39:04,809 --> 00:39:08,713 I'd be on the ground for an hour with a, with a macro lens on my camera. 758 00:39:08,746 --> 00:39:10,514 So now you've got me started and I love it. 759 00:39:10,514 --> 00:39:11,782 It's great. And, 760 00:39:12,783 --> 00:39:14,552 breaking photos of a little 761 00:39:14,552 --> 00:39:18,923 dewdrop on a blade of grass, you know, for an hour, and I forget everything. 762 00:39:18,923 --> 00:39:23,461 So I think, you know, that's where creativity can just be so healthy 763 00:39:23,494 --> 00:39:24,261 for all of us. 764 00:39:24,261 --> 00:39:26,764 And and we can find it in the kitchen. 765 00:39:26,764 --> 00:39:29,934 I personally haven't found it in the kitchen, but others do find it in 766 00:39:29,967 --> 00:39:33,671 cooking and gardening and, you know, all manner of things. 767 00:39:34,004 --> 00:39:35,639 Yeah, we find it in the kitchen. 768 00:39:35,639 --> 00:39:37,074 We love to go, oh that's good. 769 00:39:37,074 --> 00:39:39,076 I'll come over for dinner then. Absolutely. 770 00:39:39,076 --> 00:39:42,513 And Chad's a photographer, so we can photograph our perfect 771 00:39:42,513 --> 00:39:45,516 creativity in the kitchen. 772 00:39:45,516 --> 00:39:48,919 So there's this one scene that really struck me. 773 00:39:48,919 --> 00:39:49,987 And I'm sure other readers 774 00:39:49,987 --> 00:39:53,457 have felt the same, especially those of us who maybe want to write 775 00:39:53,791 --> 00:39:58,062 this idea of creativity coming in sparks and in the you need to capture it. 776 00:39:58,062 --> 00:40:01,766 You need to like captured in a bottle now or you lose it. 777 00:40:01,932 --> 00:40:03,467 And if you don't mind, on page 778 00:40:03,467 --> 00:40:07,405 73, I want to read just a little, just a paragraph where you can read it. 779 00:40:07,405 --> 00:40:08,372 If you have your book next to you, 780 00:40:08,372 --> 00:40:10,808 I please, please do, because I'm interested to hear 781 00:40:10,808 --> 00:40:13,411 what this is because I'm struggling to remember it now. 782 00:40:13,411 --> 00:40:14,311 Okay, okay. 783 00:40:14,311 --> 00:40:17,314 So Frazier and Audrey are together. 784 00:40:17,481 --> 00:40:21,118 He takes my wrist and twists my hands, palm up 785 00:40:21,385 --> 00:40:23,387 as though he's giving me something to hold. 786 00:40:23,387 --> 00:40:26,390 And I'm surprised at the unexpected touch. 787 00:40:26,390 --> 00:40:28,893 Sometimes it feels like sand slipping 788 00:40:28,893 --> 00:40:32,296 through my fingers, he says, trailing a finger across my palm. 789 00:40:32,630 --> 00:40:35,032 But it's invisible. I know it's there. 790 00:40:35,032 --> 00:40:39,236 I can feel the weight of it, but I can't see it or understand it yet. 791 00:40:39,570 --> 00:40:44,141 It's this intangible, frustrating, exciting, excruciating possibility, 792 00:40:44,375 --> 00:40:48,345 and it's almost unbearable not to know one way or the other. 793 00:40:50,681 --> 00:40:51,582 That sounds really great. 794 00:40:51,582 --> 00:40:54,452 When you read it I was like, oh my God, it's so true. 795 00:40:54,452 --> 00:40:55,519 Because like there's these moments 796 00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:59,557 when you're like you're you're so excited about something. 797 00:40:59,557 --> 00:40:59,790 Yeah. 798 00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:02,593 And you're like, you have to know, you have to dig deeper into it. 799 00:41:02,593 --> 00:41:03,794 And if you don't you lose it. 800 00:41:03,794 --> 00:41:06,897 You lose that spark and then you move on to something else. 801 00:41:07,498 --> 00:41:09,733 Yeah, it's I love that feeling. 802 00:41:09,733 --> 00:41:12,503 Isn't it just so exciting that that you. 803 00:41:12,503 --> 00:41:13,571 It's almost there. 804 00:41:13,571 --> 00:41:17,708 But you can't quite see it or touch it yet and, 805 00:41:17,708 --> 00:41:22,246 and then you sort of don't want to move in case you spook it and it disappears 806 00:41:23,814 --> 00:41:26,116 and I think that's where that taste 807 00:41:26,116 --> 00:41:30,154 comes in, too, because you can feel the power of what you are going to create. 808 00:41:30,154 --> 00:41:30,754 But you 809 00:41:30,754 --> 00:41:34,925 you are going to have to go through those 12 drafts to, to actually be able 810 00:41:34,925 --> 00:41:39,196 to really touch it and hold it and have it sit there and be strong on its own. 811 00:41:39,630 --> 00:41:43,067 And so I think that's where we have to have that courage 812 00:41:43,067 --> 00:41:48,739 and find that that sense of persistence and the belief in ourselves 813 00:41:48,739 --> 00:41:52,443 that while we may not be there in the first draft, second draft, fifth draft, 814 00:41:52,543 --> 00:41:57,681 you know, whatever, we will get there and just have the belief in the idea. 815 00:41:57,915 --> 00:42:00,918 And I think if you if you feeling that joy 816 00:42:01,051 --> 00:42:03,921 and that spark, then it's worth chasing. 817 00:42:03,921 --> 00:42:06,657 Oh my God yes. 818 00:42:06,657 --> 00:42:08,592 Yes totally. 819 00:42:08,592 --> 00:42:09,760 And it's interesting too 820 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,531 like you know it, you feel it when you've hit something really good. 821 00:42:13,597 --> 00:42:15,633 Like you can feel it in your bones. 822 00:42:15,633 --> 00:42:17,201 Oh yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 823 00:42:17,201 --> 00:42:20,704 It's, it's that sense you almost want if you're driving and it occurs to 824 00:42:20,704 --> 00:42:24,942 you just want to drive over and start writing on the spot or you know, 825 00:42:24,942 --> 00:42:27,211 and it often ends, of course, isn't it when you're in the shower 826 00:42:27,211 --> 00:42:29,813 or you're driving or you're drifting off to sleep, that these things, 827 00:42:29,813 --> 00:42:33,717 when you relax and you're allowing your brain to just do its best work? 828 00:42:33,984 --> 00:42:35,185 Oh yeah. Relax. 829 00:42:35,185 --> 00:42:39,156 When those those thoughts hit you, it's like, you know, 830 00:42:39,156 --> 00:42:43,527 Taylor Swift sitting on the couch in, on that chat show. 831 00:42:43,527 --> 00:42:46,830 Oh, gosh. No, I've forgotten his name. 832 00:42:46,830 --> 00:42:50,401 Who I, I adore him, anyway, Graham Norton, I am Norton. Yes. 833 00:42:50,834 --> 00:42:51,902 Nailed it. 834 00:42:51,902 --> 00:42:55,973 Well, I was sitting on the couch and somebody on the couch said, oh, 835 00:42:55,973 --> 00:42:59,043 you know, imagine if we all in your music video or something. 836 00:42:59,043 --> 00:43:01,111 I'd like. You know, I want to be in your music video. 837 00:43:01,111 --> 00:43:03,347 That's my sort of bucket list thing. 838 00:43:03,347 --> 00:43:06,216 And so she's and you can actually see 839 00:43:06,216 --> 00:43:10,120 on her face the thought process happening and so on. 840 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,191 And now she's put out a music video for Open Light with everyone from 841 00:43:14,191 --> 00:43:17,227 that couch, everyone on that particular one 842 00:43:17,227 --> 00:43:20,230 not so good by the pool in it. 843 00:43:20,364 --> 00:43:24,668 And I was one of those few times in life when you're watching something or someone 844 00:43:24,668 --> 00:43:28,172 and you think, wow, that was the actual bolt of inspiration 845 00:43:28,172 --> 00:43:31,108 going across her face in that moment, you get to see it. 846 00:43:31,108 --> 00:43:31,976 Yeah, yeah. 847 00:43:31,976 --> 00:43:35,679 And we recognize what that felt like because she sort of drifts off 848 00:43:35,679 --> 00:43:37,948 and in her mind you can say, oh, she's already gone 849 00:43:37,948 --> 00:43:39,917 and then she's not there on the couch anymore. 850 00:43:39,917 --> 00:43:42,119 She's already planning this music video. 851 00:43:42,119 --> 00:43:46,523 And so that's the sort of those are the moments 852 00:43:46,523 --> 00:43:50,728 you just want to bottle, because they just feel so exciting and, 853 00:43:51,295 --> 00:43:55,366 you know, and of course, it's not like that all the time. 854 00:43:55,366 --> 00:43:58,802 There is a whole lot of time when we were creative of any description 855 00:43:58,802 --> 00:44:01,572 where we are sitting around thinking, why can't I think of anything? 856 00:44:01,572 --> 00:44:03,974 Like why? What's wrong? Why is it so hard? 857 00:44:03,974 --> 00:44:06,877 All those thoughts are there as well, often. 858 00:44:06,877 --> 00:44:10,114 But, I think just having the belief that 859 00:44:10,381 --> 00:44:13,150 that we have the capacity 860 00:44:13,150 --> 00:44:16,320 to come up with great ideas is a really great start. 861 00:44:16,620 --> 00:44:19,156 Absolutely. 862 00:44:19,156 --> 00:44:21,725 Well, this almost feels like advice to all of the writers 863 00:44:21,725 --> 00:44:22,893 listening to this podcast. 864 00:44:22,893 --> 00:44:25,262 And by the way, most of our listeners are writers. 865 00:44:25,262 --> 00:44:28,699 We're the official podcast of the San Diego Writers Festival, 866 00:44:28,699 --> 00:44:32,903 which I think you know, and yeah, you know, 867 00:44:34,071 --> 00:44:35,239 those of us who are like 868 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:40,644 trying to capture that magic and needing the encouragement 869 00:44:40,644 --> 00:44:45,616 to keep going, to believe in yourself and to get past the first 11 drafts. 870 00:44:46,350 --> 00:44:49,353 Do you have any advice for our listeners? 871 00:44:50,154 --> 00:44:52,322 I guess the main thing is 872 00:44:52,322 --> 00:44:55,325 it's that whole idea of failing fast. 873 00:44:55,726 --> 00:44:58,729 It's to get to the end of that first messy draft 874 00:44:58,896 --> 00:45:02,599 and convince yourself that you have something there. 875 00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:04,568 And when you get to the end of that draft, 876 00:45:04,568 --> 00:45:06,670 what you've got there is still a big mess. 877 00:45:06,670 --> 00:45:08,772 And that's fine and normal. 878 00:45:08,772 --> 00:45:13,777 And it's about then just having the belief in yourself 879 00:45:13,777 --> 00:45:18,415 that somewhere between the state that the manuscript in right now 880 00:45:18,649 --> 00:45:22,019 and sitting in on a shelf in a shop, you know, 881 00:45:22,019 --> 00:45:26,590 you have got the capacity to pull this together and, and, 882 00:45:27,091 --> 00:45:30,461 and every I think when we go into a bookshop 883 00:45:30,461 --> 00:45:34,231 and look at the books on the shelf, we can become so overwhelmed, 884 00:45:34,531 --> 00:45:37,968 you know, by everyone else's finished product 885 00:45:38,569 --> 00:45:40,537 that we forget that everyone else in there. 886 00:45:40,537 --> 00:45:43,807 And if you listen to enough writers like you do on your podcast, you know, 887 00:45:43,807 --> 00:45:46,844 if you listen to enough writers, you realize that they all felt the same 888 00:45:46,844 --> 00:45:47,878 way and that, 889 00:45:49,546 --> 00:45:49,980 the only 890 00:45:49,980 --> 00:45:52,983 difference is, is that they've kept going through that. 891 00:45:53,283 --> 00:45:55,786 And so is that is the secret. 892 00:45:55,786 --> 00:45:58,021 It's that middle, messy bit. 893 00:45:58,021 --> 00:46:00,257 And just having this faith, 894 00:46:00,257 --> 00:46:03,327 you know, like the the exit that you just read that, that, that stuff 895 00:46:03,327 --> 00:46:06,029 that's running through your hands and you can't quite hold yet. 896 00:46:06,029 --> 00:46:08,732 You will be able to hold if you just keep trying. 897 00:46:08,732 --> 00:46:11,068 Beautiful. 898 00:46:11,068 --> 00:46:13,403 How often do you write. 899 00:46:13,403 --> 00:46:16,840 Well actually I'd love to say that I write every day, 900 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,444 but you know how you sort of think, oh, I need to have this writing practice 901 00:46:20,444 --> 00:46:22,746 and a place and a desk and all of that stuff. 902 00:46:22,746 --> 00:46:23,947 I don't do any of that. 903 00:46:23,947 --> 00:46:30,254 I'm a binge writer, so I will be thinking about writing all the time, every day. 904 00:46:30,254 --> 00:46:34,792 But, when I finally get that idea and go with it, 905 00:46:34,792 --> 00:46:36,827 I will then just sit there and just do nothing else 906 00:46:36,827 --> 00:46:38,896 and think about nothing else for for weeks. 907 00:46:39,930 --> 00:46:43,400 And really just it takes over my, my life, 908 00:46:43,567 --> 00:46:46,403 you know, I have to break from it to actually feed my family 909 00:46:46,403 --> 00:46:50,641 and things like that, you know, it's it becomes such as yourself. 910 00:46:50,641 --> 00:46:52,810 It's it's so often. Yeah. 911 00:46:52,810 --> 00:46:55,312 And so it's sort of this obsession that, that point. 912 00:46:55,312 --> 00:46:56,680 But and I think, you know, 913 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,850 I used to sort of say, oh, I need to get a bit of practice 914 00:46:59,850 --> 00:47:03,153 and, you know, do all that stuff until my, my another writer friend said, 915 00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:05,422 why, you're a binge writer 916 00:47:05,422 --> 00:47:08,425 and you're still producing a book every year or so, you know, it's not 917 00:47:08,492 --> 00:47:11,495 it doesn't matter how you do it if it works for you. 918 00:47:11,528 --> 00:47:15,632 So I think that's another one of those things where we can let go of those rules 919 00:47:15,632 --> 00:47:17,401 that we talked about. 920 00:47:17,401 --> 00:47:20,838 You know, the best way to do anything and realize that our brains all work 921 00:47:20,838 --> 00:47:21,738 very differently. 922 00:47:21,738 --> 00:47:22,906 I mean, I've been 923 00:47:22,906 --> 00:47:26,410 diagnosed with ADHD this year, along with a whole lot of other people. 924 00:47:26,743 --> 00:47:31,148 And, that has made a big difference to my understanding of 925 00:47:31,381 --> 00:47:32,716 of how my brain works 926 00:47:32,716 --> 00:47:36,587 and how it best works and what to do to make life easier for myself. 927 00:47:36,587 --> 00:47:39,723 And so all it's all very complex. 928 00:47:39,723 --> 00:47:45,529 And the more we can get to know our own strengths and desires as writers, 929 00:47:45,529 --> 00:47:48,999 I think the more in-tune we are with the best kind of practice for ourselves. 930 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,569 It's kind of like being kind to yourself, isn't it? 931 00:47:52,569 --> 00:47:54,838 Yeah. Definitely self-compassion. 932 00:47:54,838 --> 00:47:55,739 Boy, is that hard. 933 00:47:57,875 --> 00:48:00,143 When you're thinking to yourself, oh, this is crap. 934 00:48:00,143 --> 00:48:01,478 I'm a terrible writer. 935 00:48:01,478 --> 00:48:03,513 Yeah, I know we were our own worst critics. 936 00:48:03,513 --> 00:48:07,784 Yeah, well, I have these moments where I'm like, oh, my God, it's so good. 937 00:48:07,784 --> 00:48:10,187 And the next day I'm like, wow, why did I think that was good? 938 00:48:10,187 --> 00:48:13,190 I know. 939 00:48:14,157 --> 00:48:16,493 So what are you working on now, aside from, 940 00:48:16,493 --> 00:48:19,630 you know, the exciting TV world, in the screenplay? 941 00:48:20,230 --> 00:48:21,965 Yeah. Do you have a favorite? 942 00:48:21,965 --> 00:48:24,968 I do love juggling different projects, and, 943 00:48:24,968 --> 00:48:28,939 I so I, I, I've got to write another book. 944 00:48:29,006 --> 00:48:33,176 I actually had a first stab at the next book. 945 00:48:33,877 --> 00:48:36,280 And it's kind of gone a bit astray. 946 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,416 And so we've all had a read of that first draft and thought, 947 00:48:39,416 --> 00:48:42,552 yeah, that might not be my next book. 948 00:48:44,521 --> 00:48:45,389 But I don't. 949 00:48:45,389 --> 00:48:45,822 Yeah. 950 00:48:45,822 --> 00:48:50,160 So I'm now thinking about that story of, of repurposing that. 951 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,031 And in fact, I'm speaking to the TV producer about it because there's a lot 952 00:48:54,031 --> 00:48:58,001 in that story that would lend itself to a, to a television series. 953 00:48:58,001 --> 00:49:01,571 So I'm really big fan of the idea that nothing is wasted 954 00:49:01,571 --> 00:49:03,240 and that that, you know, sometimes it's 955 00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:05,509 is this the right medium to tell that story? 956 00:49:05,509 --> 00:49:09,579 And, so now I've had another idea for a book 957 00:49:09,579 --> 00:49:14,117 that's about mothers and adult daughters, because my daughters are now in their 20s 958 00:49:14,584 --> 00:49:17,754 and, they're the ones I was writing about Harry styles, 959 00:49:17,854 --> 00:49:20,857 you know, and, you know, and now I'm. 960 00:49:21,024 --> 00:49:22,893 And now, while they haven't moved on from Harry, 961 00:49:22,893 --> 00:49:28,031 I can now write about this relationship between mothers and adult daughters. 962 00:49:28,031 --> 00:49:31,335 And I lost my own mum a couple of years ago, and I think I think 963 00:49:31,335 --> 00:49:34,938 that's now I'm ready to write a story about that dynamic. 964 00:49:34,938 --> 00:49:39,276 And, I, my lovely mum, she was just wonderful. 965 00:49:39,276 --> 00:49:44,081 And, and just the relationship between different generations of women, 966 00:49:44,081 --> 00:49:47,084 I think is where I want to go next. 967 00:49:47,117 --> 00:49:49,586 Well, I'm sorry for your loss. Oh thank you. 968 00:49:49,586 --> 00:49:50,687 Yeah that's hard. 969 00:49:50,687 --> 00:49:53,790 I think that's going to, 970 00:49:53,790 --> 00:49:56,760 going to be a wonderful subject in your hands. 971 00:49:56,860 --> 00:49:59,162 Thank you. Yeah. 972 00:49:59,162 --> 00:50:02,632 And feel a lot of love in that book already even though I haven't 973 00:50:02,966 --> 00:50:04,334 even started it. Yeah. 974 00:50:04,334 --> 00:50:05,002 But you have. 975 00:50:05,002 --> 00:50:06,737 You've started in your head. 976 00:50:06,737 --> 00:50:08,705 You write like you wrote. 977 00:50:08,705 --> 00:50:12,376 So I want to know how we're going to get unrequited into the hands of Harry styles. 978 00:50:13,076 --> 00:50:14,711 Well, that's what I would like to know. 979 00:50:14,711 --> 00:50:17,180 And we've been asking that question now for a decade. 980 00:50:17,180 --> 00:50:19,950 Well, I'm on your team. 981 00:50:19,950 --> 00:50:21,885 I believe anything is possible. 982 00:50:21,885 --> 00:50:22,919 Well, I do too. 983 00:50:22,919 --> 00:50:24,454 And in fact, one of my daughters, 984 00:50:24,454 --> 00:50:29,259 had a friend who had leukemia, and she was a massive fan of how she is. 985 00:50:29,593 --> 00:50:32,162 Oh, well. Continues on. 986 00:50:32,162 --> 00:50:33,363 So this has a happy ending. 987 00:50:33,363 --> 00:50:38,335 But she, when she had big first became sick, I said to my girls, 988 00:50:38,335 --> 00:50:41,338 look, I'm not really great making lasagnas and all that stuff. 989 00:50:41,671 --> 00:50:43,006 You know, the poor family. 990 00:50:43,006 --> 00:50:47,110 We don't want to inflict my cooking, but I am good at making connections. 991 00:50:47,110 --> 00:50:50,380 Wouldn't it be great to get a Harry's bandana for her? 992 00:50:50,380 --> 00:50:53,650 Because he was in this bandana phase and she was about to lose her hair, 993 00:50:53,650 --> 00:50:55,585 and and I looked at me and said, 994 00:50:55,585 --> 00:50:57,788 you know, mum, he's the biggest pop star in the world. 995 00:50:57,788 --> 00:50:58,522 And you're just, you know, 996 00:50:58,522 --> 00:51:01,591 this mum from Canberra, Australia, how are you going to do this? 997 00:51:01,591 --> 00:51:03,860 And I took that as a personal challenge. No. Yeah, 998 00:51:03,860 --> 00:51:07,931 yeah I won't go you with the entire story but we got the bandana and it. 999 00:51:07,931 --> 00:51:12,002 Oh and as requested it was worn and unwashed. 1000 00:51:12,903 --> 00:51:14,971 Very nice ranking of knots 1001 00:51:16,673 --> 00:51:17,841 and we all were inhaling it. 1002 00:51:17,841 --> 00:51:20,844 Even her mother and I. And it was like 1003 00:51:21,511 --> 00:51:24,281 it was the most joyous thing that happened in years. 1004 00:51:24,281 --> 00:51:26,817 And so I do believe anything can happen. 1005 00:51:26,817 --> 00:51:29,986 And maybe Harry will be listening to this podcast and, 1006 00:51:30,954 --> 00:51:33,690 you know, get in touch with you and you can pass on his details. 1007 00:51:33,690 --> 00:51:34,357 Yeah, yeah. 1008 00:51:34,357 --> 00:51:37,828 Well, we'll definitely have our people call his people to call your people. 1009 00:51:40,664 --> 00:51:40,897 Well, 1010 00:51:40,897 --> 00:51:44,167 Emma Gray, thank you so much for joining us here today. 1011 00:51:44,167 --> 00:51:45,969 This has been a wonderful conversation. 1012 00:51:45,969 --> 00:51:47,938 I think you're extraordinary. 1013 00:51:47,938 --> 00:51:48,705 Oh. Thank you. 1014 00:51:48,705 --> 00:51:50,507 It's just been so lovely to speaking with you. 1015 00:51:50,507 --> 00:51:52,809 I feel like I'm speaking to an old friend. 1016 00:51:52,809 --> 00:51:54,644 Well, let's, let's keep that going. 1017 00:51:54,644 --> 00:51:54,911 Yeah. 1018 00:51:54,911 --> 00:51:58,515 And next time you have a book, I would love to interview you again. 1019 00:51:58,515 --> 00:52:01,718 And anytime you're here, we will make you lasagna, I promise. 1020 00:52:01,718 --> 00:52:03,153 Thank you. I do appreciate. 1021 00:52:05,188 --> 00:52:06,623 For being no Graham Norton. 1022 00:52:06,623 --> 00:52:08,458 Yeah. No, 1023 00:52:08,458 --> 00:52:11,294 not today anyway. 1024 00:52:11,294 --> 00:52:15,198 Well, friends, you can learn more about Emma Gray on her website. 1025 00:52:15,432 --> 00:52:17,167 Emma gray. 1026 00:52:17,167 --> 00:52:19,336 Okay, you you can also follow her 1027 00:52:19,336 --> 00:52:22,539 on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok at Emma. 1028 00:52:22,539 --> 00:52:23,473 Great author. 1029 00:52:23,473 --> 00:52:28,111 Be sure to subscribe to our newsletter and buy her books specifically. 1030 00:52:28,111 --> 00:52:30,947 Get this one. Start at the end. 1031 00:52:30,947 --> 00:52:33,884 Wonderful. Wonderful read. You will love it. 1032 00:52:33,884 --> 00:52:36,486 This has been another episode of The Premise. 1033 00:52:36,486 --> 00:52:39,656 You can visit us online at The Premise podcast. 1034 00:52:40,223 --> 00:52:43,393 Be sure to subscribe and rate or review the premise wherever 1035 00:52:43,393 --> 00:52:44,594 you get your podcasts. 1036 00:52:44,594 --> 00:52:47,164 Those reviews really help us get the word out. 1037 00:52:47,164 --> 00:52:51,168 You can also follow me, your host on Instagram at Jennifer Grace, 1038 00:52:51,168 --> 00:52:54,504 or follow me on Facebook at Jennifer Thompson Consulting. 1039 00:52:54,871 --> 00:52:57,307 Until next week. Thank you for listening 1040 00:52:58,341 --> 00:53:00,243 to Bye Bye. 1041 00:53:00,243 --> 00:53:27,571 My. New.