Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
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It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
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com.
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
Today I've got Celisse Barrett.
There's a lot of people who come on the show who do the impossible.
That tends to be why I select them.
And many of you out there who are involved in this equine assisted
world do the impossible, but Celisse really does the impossible.
She and her husband Jason, run this thing that shouldn't really work,
but does called equestrian chaos, where they not just trick ride
professionally, not just mounted archery professionally or girl team, but they
also do it with and for special needs.
So they go between the professional shows and running
this as a special needs program.
When I first heard about it, I was not skeptical.
I was just intrigued, went and witnessed it for myself with Rowan, my
son, 2019, and Sise and her compadre.
Brooke had my son, my anxious son standing up on a horse.
Incredible.
And then I watched people with all kinds of special needs from TBIs that.
Had rendered the brain and the body, let's say, compromised in the extreme to
people with barely verbal, nonverbal to the hypoxic, a DDH, you know, everything,
everything, everything in the show.
And it knocked me on my butt.
There aren't many people out there who can do what Sise Barrett does.
So thank you Cise for coming on the show.
Please tell us who you are, what you do, why on earth you do it.
'cause it's bloody hard work and you know, how did you get here?
Tell us about the program and you.
Celisse Barrett: Wow, that's a, that's a very big question.
Well, I started because it was actually honestly a selfish start in the beginning.
I moved to Mobile, Alabama with my husband and I really, I found
trick riding right before I left.
And when I found trick riding, I found something that just, it
inspired me to the fullest physically.
When you don't know what you're able to do and then you're finally suddenly able
to do what seems like the impossible.
You realize, well, at least for me, I realized that I wanted to push my body
much further into this extreme type of writing, and it gave me confidence
in a way that I had never felt before.
And it wasn't really like a it wasn't so much about being on stage as it was that
I could physically achieve a certain goal.
Yeah.
And when I had physical confidence, it gave me personal confidence.
If that, were you
Rupert Isaacson: not so personally confident before trick writing?
Celisse Barrett: I don't think I really was, to be honest.
And I think a lot of that comes from my music background.
I'm also a classical musician.
Of course you are.
And I went through
Rupert Isaacson: What's your, what's your instrument?
Celisse Barrett: Flute?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: I played flute for, since I was seven years old.
And I played it all through high school.
I actually went to Howard w Blake School of the Performing Arts,
and I had to audition in high school to get into that school.
And it was
Rupert Isaacson: Where is that, where in the US is that school?
Celisse Barrett: In Tampa?
Tampa Bay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Florida.
Celisse Barrett: They had opened up as a magnet school and I was the second year.
Student they didn't have seniors the first year.
And the second year that was open as a magnet performing arts school.
I joined.
And I think because of the music background, you know,
perfect practice means perfect.
Right?
That's how you get, and music is so critical that I think all the years
of being beat up classically training.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: Because it's, it's cutthroat.
I mean, I guess all entertainment and performing arts is cutthroat
in a way, but with your instrument, you're not able to hide behind your
instrument the way you can hide, I guess, somewhat behind a horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: And if that, I don't know if that makes sense or resonates.
Oh, I've
Rupert Isaacson: hidden behind a few horses in my time.
Celisse Barrett: Yeah, yeah.
Like, oh, I didn't do it, but maybe the horse did it.
I don't know what happened.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But
Celisse Barrett: when you're playing on stage it's all out there from your breath
to your, I mean, the second you walk out there, you are in charge of everything.
If you go flat, you can't blame the flute.
It is all you.
And I think I was just so, I was so tired of being critiqued all the time that I
had scholarships to go into college for music, and I turned them down because I
was, it was too much, almost too much.
Mm-hmm.
I had, like, at one point I had 20 pieces.
I was playing from soloist, pieces to I was a part of the,
the school had a symphony.
The school actually, when we did musicals for musical, the musical
theater department, the school did not have recorded audio.
It was all live, played by the students in the orchestra pit.
We were the first high school to have an orchestra pit in the United
Rupert Isaacson: States.
Celisse Barrett: Wow.
So when I say it was a heavy music program, it was so heavy.
We had to audition every year for all county and all State.
That was a requirement.
We had to audition for Julliard.
That was a requirement.
Okay.
Like that tells you how extreme it was.
And so, and after every performance, there's always that person in
the background that's saying, Hey, here's what you did great.
Here's what you did bad.
Yeah.
And a lot of times I always felt like it was more bad than good.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And,
Celisse Barrett: and so no, I wasn't a very confident person coming out of into
the performing arts world at that time.
My life.
And
Rupert Isaacson: you've always been a horse woman, right?
You'd always been around horses?
Oh
Celisse Barrett: yes.
I've been around horses my whole life.
Horses were kind of my hobby.
I've been riding since I was three, and they were, I tried to get outta
horses several times throughout high school, and I always just kind of
found myself falling back to them.
Rupert Isaacson: Why did you try and get out of horses?
Celisse Barrett: I think because I was so.
Smothered in the classical music world.
That time was an issue, and especially in high school for me.
And once I stopped competing with horses, I kind of lost my way for a little while.
When I got on my own and I'm like, well, what do I do if I
don't have $150,000 show horse?
Which I never, ever had.
How do I, what, what do I do with the skills that I had acquired in horses?
What was
Rupert Isaacson: your showing discipline?
Celisse Barrett: I showed American Saddlebreds Morgan's saddle seat mainly.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: But yeah, I showed Morgan's Arabians, national Show,
horses, American Saddlebreds, all those really hotheaded horses that don't stand
still when you're trying to mount up onto them and take 'em into the story.
And why do
Rupert Isaacson: you, why them, why that style?
Celisse Barrett: The, I loved how hot they were.
Mm-hmm.
I loved the energy underneath me that I felt with them.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: It was like riding a firecracker.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
I mean,
Celisse Barrett: you never knew which way it was gonna go.
At least for me.
But I love the thrill of how much energy I felt underneath
me when I was showing on them.
And I loved being in the competitive show ring, but it was just so expensive.
Every time we would compete to go into a show, it was, I mean, this
was what, 25, 30 years ago now?
I mean, it was.
I think my show bill at the end of the year was over $10,000.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
Back then.
Yeah,
Celisse Barrett: that's back then.
Right?
And that's, yeah.
So, and that was just, that wasn't
Rupert Isaacson: even like the top shows.
Yeah,
Celisse Barrett: no, that wasn't even the top.
No, I never went to the world or anything like that.
I didn't have a horse competitive enough I to even make it to the top.
And so I kind of got in a funk because I, I mean, I had horses, but I didn't,
I had a horse, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: And I finally found a I was reading the newspaper when
they actually had jobs listed in the newspaper, and Dixie Stampede was
coming into town to Orlando, Florida.
And I was like, well, shoot, I ride horses as a hobby.
I play, I've been a performer my whole life with music.
Why don't I just go ahead and get on stage with a horse?
Like they were, they were
Rupert Isaacson: auditioning riders for the show.
They were
Celisse Barrett: auditioning for riders.
Yes.
They had opened up a brand new show and they had no riders yet to fill the
Orlando location in Orlando, Florida.
And I was like, well, let me just drive over to Kissimmee, Florida where they
were holding the auditions and let me see if I'm good enough to do it.
And I had enough stage presence from the, my music.
For all those years that I knew what I was supposed to do on
stage, but I never really thought about combining the two together.
Um Mm.
And trying out for an equestrian theater.
And that's when they hired me.
That's where I found trick riding when I saw trick riding
for the very first time ever.
And I was blown, blown away.
And what was Dixon
Rupert Isaacson: Stampede?
What kind of a show was it?
Celisse Barrett: The Dixie Stampede originally was a show between the
Confederates versus the Yankees.
North versus South.
Okay.
So the first part of the show would be it would introduce all
the rider in a 10 person drill.
There would be a bunch of specialty acts, trick riding, Roman riding some
dancing different, some carriage stuff.
They herded some buffalo in the beginning of the show, and then they would go on the
second half of the show was a competition between the north and the south.
And, and the
Rupert Isaacson: competition would be what trick riding?
Celisse Barrett: Actually, no.
The trick riding was one of the specialty acts in the beginning.
Okay.
The competition started out with like the ring game.
They got the, the soldiers would take out their swords and they would ride
under this apparatus that came down from the ceiling that held rings.
Oh yeah.
And whoever speared the most rings won that side for their team.
And then another show was, or another game was barrel racing.
The girls would do a serpentine pattern, one for the north and one for the south.
Three girls, three on each side.
And the first person to finish.
Won a medal for their team, ostrich racing.
That was at the time there was ostrich racing in the show.
And
Rupert Isaacson: as if that had anything to do with the civil War.
Celisse Barrett: Absolutely.
Of course, you know how many people rode into the infantry on a freaking bird
that you can't control, by the way.
I don't, you can't control them.
So, yeah, it was, it was a wild show.
It was, it was fun.
Rupert Isaacson: And where first did you do, how did that for
Celisse Barrett: I did that for four years
Rupert Isaacson: and you ended up, you could have been in any one of those acts.
So why the trick writing?
Celisse Barrett: I was blown away when I saw this girl.
Her name was Leslie, and I saw her turn upside down on her horse, drop
the reins and fly upside down in the arena from point A to point B.
And that it was just, to me it was magic to see how well that horse ran for her.
She had no control over the horse whatsoever.
And that horse just knew the pattern
period.
And that was the first time I'd ever really witnessed anything
like that coming from saddle seat.
And I think between saddle seat and music, everything is about personal control.
Control, control, control, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Perfectionism.
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
And then to all of a sudden, watch this girl let go of the reins,
her horse run the pattern and the horse just carry her flawlessly.
It blew me away.
And then to see the next trick and then the next trick, and then
the next trick, and now it like, but of course, trick riding,
Rupert Isaacson: we all know is like all stunt all about
control and preparation and it is otherwise you get killed, you know?
So
Celisse Barrett: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It must to some degree also appeal to that side of you.
Celisse Barrett: The, the freeness of it is what appealed to me so much
because yes, even though it is the way we practice it is so controlled.
Of course you don't see that out there when you see it in the arena.
First time you just see the final picture and you're going, holy cow.
How do you get to that?
Oh, I think
Rupert Isaacson: we all can see that the amount of precision and control is insane.
Insane.
Yeah.
You know, I think we, that is loud and clear.
Even it, it does not appear like chaos, you know, at all.
It looks like a science applied, you know, at speed.
Yeah, sure.
You know, but okay, so you do this for four years.
You get involved in trick writing and you become very good at it.
What gave you the idea to mix special needs with this?
Celisse Barrett: Well,
I always had a passion.
It was just something I always did in school.
When I was in sixth grade, I was a peer facilitator and
I worked with children that.
Had special needs and I would go and tutor them after school.
My cousin.
But why,
Rupert Isaacson: why?
There's usually a story behind it.
Celisse Barrett: I don't, I don't really know why.
I was just always wrong.
Did you wake
Rupert Isaacson: up one day and like, oh, I want to tutor special needs kids?
I mean, and you had a lot of stuff going on too.
You didn't really have a lot of time.
Celisse Barrett: I think because of
how I grew up in middle school, in high school and my personal experiences, I
always had, I don't know, it was always just instinctual for me to help others.
Rupert Isaacson: My cousin.
Were you bullied?
Did you have a tough time?
Celisse Barrett: I had a very tough time, especially in middle school.
Yes.
Why?
I had a very tough time.
Why middle?
What happened?
I was bullied a lot.
In what
Rupert Isaacson: sort of a way and why do you think, why were you bullied?
What was, what was the target?
Celisse Barrett: I think it was,
I don't really know why I was bullied.
To be honest, I was kind of, and my middle school, it was also a magnet school,
but we were not in a great part of town.
And honestly, I was bullied by a lot of the local kids.
Mm-hmm.
Magnet schools, you have to have a percentage of, of the
district children in with the
the gifted
With the gifted kids.
Yeah.
And.
Back then, I think bullying was just kind of part of, I mean, it
was a kind of a rite of passage.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
And I can't
Celisse Barrett: tell you how many times on the basketball court when I,
I hated basketball and PE because these girls would come up to me and I can't
tell you how many times I was called the cream filling of the Oreo cookie.
Okay.
And they
would, two of them would come up and they would just be ready to
like smash into me on both sides.
And I'm like, oh my God, this is gonna hurt so bad.
And but you couldn't say, back then, you couldn't say anything.
You just took it and then you just went on with your day.
Yeah.
And so I don't know if I just had a compassion for those that I
always thought were the underdog.
But I always noticed the people that were sitting by themselves at
the lunch in the lunchroom, Uhhuh.
And I would always go and sit with those people.
Like, you're sitting by yourself.
Who are you?
Tell me more about you.
And I would always try to befriend those that didn't
seem like they had any friends.
'cause I always felt, even I had a story, no one wanted to hear it.
But even I had one as a kid, so.
Mm.
I'm sure
these, my other kids, my other peers at the time had a story too.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Celisse Barrett: And you know, and middle school's tough.
Middle school kids don't.
Yes.
The kids are mean.
I mean, I'm sorry, but at that time, I mean it, you just.
I was the minority at the, at that school.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And actually both my schools, middle school and
high school, I was the minority.
Although it did change in high school some the bullying
definitely died away a lot more.
I think it's just a middle school thing
Rupert Isaacson: that really
Celisse Barrett: hit me hard.
So much so that I hate, like I remember walking into high school
dreading that I was gonna have to endure four more years of this,
Type of peer real, these dealing with all these different
peers and these relationships.
But I realized it changed a little bit in high school when it wasn't nearly as
cutthroat as it was in middle school.
Rupert Isaacson: So you started volunteering to tutor special needs kids.
But that's quite a long way from trick riding with special needs kids.
Yeah.
That's a tall order.
What gave you the idea to do what, what, what made you
think that was even possible?
Celisse Barrett: Well, it, for me, it started with an accident
back to those ostriches Okay.
That we mentioned earlier.
I had an accident on one of the birds at the St.
Dixie Stampede, and I had to learn how to walk again after that.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
What happened?
And.
Celisse Barrett: My, it was a rehearsal and we had new birds that were in the show
that were practicing to go into the show.
And
Rupert Isaacson: just the situations one finds oneself in, in life, right?
Yeah,
Celisse Barrett: right.
Right.
Here I'm on an
Rupert Isaacson: ostrich that, I dunno,
Celisse Barrett: brand new ostrich 350 pound bird that had, there's a
reason why they survived the Ice Age.
Yeah.
But so we were running this rehearsal and I remember thinking like, man,
this is, these birds are not running well, let's just get this over with.
We're we, I feel like we need more people out here.
It was just, it was complete chaos.
And so they're like, all right, well we wanna take these, this bird one more time.
We need someone to ride it.
And I could ride the birds without, they had a little harness that went
underneath their wings and that you held onto, well, many times in the show, if
you're getting imbalanced in the show with your scores, if the south has like
five medals and the north only has one, you might wanna start thinking about
throwing the race for audience, for the audience's standpoint, because you don't
want the show to be blown away and no chance for the other side not to win.
So during the ostrich race, I could easily throw the race if I needed
to, to even out the playing field.
And I didn't necessarily need a a harness to ride.
Well, they didn't have a harness ready during this rehearsal.
And I was like, forget it, let just get on the bird.
Let's end this rehearsal.
Let's go.
And I get on the bird and this bird is running wild and.
Before I know it, I'm coming off the bird and my leg slips in between
the bird's legs while it's running.
And I tore four ligaments in my knee, like it snapped.
Like I could, I heard my knee snap, like rubber bands.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And just from the kick that fell out.
Celisse Barrett: Yeah.
Well, it got caught the, into the, it, it got caught between the bird's legs.
So it was like putting my knee into like a grinding wheel.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Celisse Barrett: And it just, there's, yeah.
I mean, there's a reason why those birds, they tell you
stay away from the front legs.
Yeah.
They are so strong.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And so I completely jacked up my knee that day and it
took me probably about two years before I could walk without a limp.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: And I remember saying, if I can ever trick ride again, I will never
take walking for granted because I finally had found the thing that I love most.
I found that thing that put me in my flow zone.
Mm-hmm.
That place where I, it didn't matter how many people that watched or
didn't watch, I loved trick riding.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
I loved
Celisse Barrett: how it felt physically, mentally, emotionally,
and, and the connection that I had with my trick riding horses.
And it's a different connection than I've had with any other type of horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: I mean, you're trusting them with everything that you have and
you're saying, carry me from point A to point B and carry me fully confidently.
Without flaw.
And they, and my trick riding horses, they did it so perfectly.
And then when I tore my knee and had to learn how to walk again, all I could think
of was, oh my God, please don't let this be the last time I ever experienced this.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: Especially to a stupid bird of all things.
So
Rupert Isaacson: I presume that you then couldn't go on with the show
after you had that accident, right?
Celisse Barrett: Correct.
I actually went up and auditioned for Caval at the time and came back
and had the accident a week later and had to call Caval and tell them
Rupert Isaacson: I can't
Celisse Barrett: go.
And so anyway, so yeah, that started a very long road and that is basically
the, that was the catalyst that inspired me to work with those that
didn't have the same abilities that
Rupert Isaacson: I had.
But what made you think that you knew the dangers?
I mean, what made you think that that was possible to do with
this very vulnerable population?
Celisse Barrett: Because I was able to get it back and do it again.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
If
Celisse Barrett: I could rebuild myself and really work hard and belief,
belief was the biggest thing I had to.
It took me a while to get out of my mental funk that I was in,
and I finally just had to believe enough that I could do it again.
And I remember pushing through pain like nobody else had ever pushed
through pain before in my life.
Like, I mean, I know like there's, there's a type of pain that you go through
when you're trying to learn any type of circus art, and you kind of take that
pain as a rite of passage and it make what doesn't kill you make you stronger.
And I was like, all right, if I can get through this, then
I can get through anything.
And I knew what it was like to feel like I had everything and then
to instantly have it taken away.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Celisse Barrett: And it wasn't even doing the thing that I loved.
Yeah.
And I honestly hated the ostriches.
It was like my least favorite thing to do.
And but so anyway, once I got that, once I got myself physically back my
first show was at a special needs camp.
And now my husband hasn't been involved.
Jason has been involved with this camp since he was 12 years old.
And we were moving to Mobile, Alabama.
We just had our daughter.
And by the
Rupert Isaacson: way, listeners, we're gonna be having Jason, who's
also incredible on our other podcast, live Free, ride Free quite soon.
So you will get a bit of Jason all.
Yeah.
You're gonna love him.
Celisse Barrett: He's he's great.
Yeah.
He's brilliant.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, he's brilliant.
Celisse Barrett: And so he is like, well, I really wanna take you
to this camp that I grew up with as a kid, which was Camp Smile.
And he had spent his whole life working with special needs.
And so I was like, awesome, let's go check it out and see.
Do you think they would want me to trick ride?
Now mind you, this is not far past my injury.
Since then, I've had a kid, Jason, and I had a, a daughter in 2007,
and my accident was in 2005.
So my first trick riding show outside of the Dixie Stampede
was this special needs camp.
And again, coming from that cutthroat
era of entertainment, this accident honestly, was probably the best
thing that ever happened to me.
And I can't believe I'm actually saying that, but in hindsight, it
really was because it forced me to leave the Dixie Stampede, or it forced
me to relieve all my peers, and it forced me to find something completely
hidden that I had no idea existed.
And I remember standing up on my horse for the first time to perform.
D And this is your own
Rupert Isaacson: horse that you brought in, trained and brought
to the camp, or you joined a team?
Yes.
Celisse Barrett: Okay.
No, no, no.
I'm sorry.
Yes.
I bought my own horse.
I actually bought my trick riding horse from the Dixie Stampede before I left.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: And took him with me.
And hope, and he'd been kind
Rupert Isaacson: of out of work all this time.
And then you'd, you'd gone and had a kid.
How'd you, how'd you feed yourself?
Celisse Barrett: I actually temporarily worked as a court reporter in Tampa
at the courthouse for a while.
And that's what I did when I was pregnant with Marley.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: And I worked for the juvenile dependency courts for the,
for Tampa's I think 15th Precinct.
I worked under Judge Sheehan, and that is probably the worst job you
can ever have while you're pregnant.
Because I was in there with all juveniles, they were all kids that were either going
through termination of parental rights.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: It was a very hard, it was easier for me to work in.
Go ahead.
Rupert Isaacson: I said oi.
Yeah.
I mean, that just must have been Oh yeah.
Heartbreaking.
Celisse Barrett: It was, it was, it was very heartbreaking.
I would've much rather been in 15 murder trials constantly then have to
deal with kids with parental rights and getting their parents taken,
getting them taken away from their parents or their parents just not
being fit enough to care for them.
And it was a very heartbreaking thing to be put into.
And it,
Rupert Isaacson: by the way, how did you end up, that seems, again, so random.
How did you end up as a court reporter?
That's a fairly specialist job.
Celisse Barrett: It is.
I had a friend working in the courts at the time and she knew I was looking
for work and she actually hooked me up with the job and yeah, I did some
training and it wasn't the same as a stenographer because they're starting
to change some of the courts houses.
They changed how they do transcribing.
Mm-hmm.
And everybody is on their own microphone Okay.
When they're in these court cases.
And so my job was to go in there, hook up everyone's microphone to them and make
sure that I annotated on my own program who was speaking when, because when
you're dealing with like a kid trial with minors, you would have not only the, the
parents would have their own attorney, the kid would have their own attorney.
They would also have a guardian ad litem yeah.
Speaking for them.
They'd have social workers involved.
Like sometimes I'd be sitting at a table of 16 people.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And
Celisse Barrett: you wouldn't know whose voice was who.
And so it was my job to connect the voice to the
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And the
Celisse Barrett: transcripts to the court hearings.
Rupert Isaacson: So again, I could see how for your special needs training
to watch children going through that kind of trauma and pain, and a lot
of these kids must have been special needs as well of one kind or another.
Some of them
Celisse Barrett: were,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Some of them were a lot of them was they,
it was a product of poverty.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And I hate to say it, and at the time you don't
realize how much poverty does affect.
Families.
But when you come from nothing,
and there's nothing to give and no life experience to give,
you only learn one way to live.
And a lot of these kids were just part of the, they were just
constantly wrapped up in the system.
I mean, and if they weren't in, some of them were foster
kids that weren't working out.
Yeah.
Parents wanted to adopt them.
And then they, I mean, there were, there were some beautiful
proceedings that happened.
The adoptions were great.
They were all adoptions are done off the record.
And those were wins.
But for every win there was 50 losses.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And to see it in such a big city and see the
system, I mean, it was very hard.
Yeah.
It was very hard to see it, it was very hard to watch it.
Some of it was poverty, some of it was just, I mean, kids needed
to be out of these situations.
Some of it was not good.
It was the best thing for them to leave.
The hardest one though, was to watch siblings be separated.
Mm.
That was where it really kind of hit you in the gut.
Rupert Isaacson: And why did, there were, why did they separate siblings?
Why would they do that?
Celisse Barrett: Because maybe they were coming from a bad home
and maybe one foster family could take two of the six siblings.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
They weren't,
Celisse Barrett: some of the families coming in weren't able to take all
of the siblings into all together.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Yeah.
Large families.
Celisse Barrett: There were some great families that would come in and try
to take, I'll take two of the brothers if you take two of his sisters and
we'll have play dates together Yeah.
Where they can kind of keep the connection of the siblings.
So they did have some great outcomes like that.
But you're talking Tampa Bay, it is a huge city.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Millions of people in that city.
Yeah.
I mean, if it's that bad there, imagine where it's like in cities that are bigger.
Yeah.
And and so that was a very eyeopening thing for me.
And so I did learn very quickly what it was like to not have opportunity
and to know that these kids may never have anything in their life
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Other than
Celisse Barrett: just hopes to have a roof over their head and a place to call home.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And for a child not living with any sort of
what's the word I'm looking for?
Connection and having some commonality in life like daily where, you know,
you know, you're gonna come home and mom is gonna be there and dad is
gonna be there and no support system.
It's hard for kids and they just get, I mean, as a kid you think you're,
you're still growing and you're still impressionable and all these kids
are just being kind of chucked away.
Yeah.
And people are, the adults are trying to do the best that they can, but none of
it is setting the kids up for success.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Because they're just jumping from one home to another.
And you gotta think from.
Set from two and three years old to 18, those are some very
impressionable years of a child's life.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean,
Celisse Barrett: that's where all the major programming happens.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And if you have no constant programming, you, I
mean, they're setting up to fail.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And that was the hardest part to think about the job.
And I'm sitting here pregnant with Marley and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm
about to bring a kid into this world.
And I really didn't have anything at the time.
I had that job and I had my horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
But
Celisse Barrett: I had nothing outside of that.
And Jason, we had just gotten back together.
I'm sure you'll hear more about our story through him, but he'll, he
had just gotten off of a cruise ship and Marley was not even born yet.
He, she was born two weeks after he got off of his cruise ship job.
And and that's how we were bringing a baby into this world.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, I hope to God I can give her something.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Celisse Barrett: Outside of what I'm seeing, because when
you're in it just every day, it was just too much negativity.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think that really port that kind of unconsciously did turn over into my
work building what we built with the kids.
Because not only if your special needs, but again, poverty plays a huge role
into what people can and can't do and what they're allowed, what they're
accessible for and not accessible for.
And and I never wanted.
Any of our clients or students to not have access to things that they
wanted to try or possibly needed because finances were an issue.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Okay.
So you do this ca camp.
You do a performance at the Camp, camp Smile.
And what gives you the idea to start an act that is both a kind
of professional level act and also a special needs program?
Celisse Barrett: Well, I now, mind you, I came from the mental mindset of
classical music and equestrian theater.
Both were very cutthroat, but I went into this camp and I did this horrific
performance of trick riding in my mind.
I'm like, oh my gosh, this was the worst thing I've ever done.
What am I doing?
Those kids cheered so loudly.
Mm-hmm.
And they wanted to see the same stunt over and over.
Okay.
And over and over.
And I was like, you know what?
Fine.
I'll give it to 'em.
If they wanna see it again, I will do it again.
And I did it again and again and
Rupert Isaacson: again.
Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And it was just as good the first time as it was the eighth time.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
But I've performed it, you know, it's so true.
I've been on a play date, for example, with kids in the forest with horses riding
with them, and then there's a tree down.
This has happened a couple of times, particularly in Germany, and so I've
had to give the kid to my sidewalk and jump the horse over the log and then
retrieve the kid on the other side, and they'll make me do it like 20 times.
They're like, well, you know, that is, yeah.
I, I, I so know what you mean it.
Yeah.
And it makes you look at the whole thing through a very different lens.
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
And that was the lens that changed everything, that it turned, it put
on a new filter on my camera, and I was like, wow, wait a minute.
In my mind, from what I came from, it was absurd to do it 10 times
over and over and over again.
The same stunt where people would normally get bored, but these kids, it
was like, they were like powerhouses and they just kept getting more energized
and more energized every time I did it.
And that was like when the first light bulb came on in my head, and
I realized at that time that what I had to offer was enough.
Okay.
I didn't have to be the best at that time.
I just had to.
Be exactly who I was at that moment in time.
And that was kind of my big, I guess, epiphany into trying, well actually it's
actually, it happened right after that.
So I did my performance.
They loved it.
Same tricks over and over again.
They didn't care.
It was epic every single time.
And then I went down, another woman was directing the horse program at the time,
and I wanted to walk down and see what they were doing in their horse program.
And I get down to the bottom of the field where, and I'm watching them ride
and they're like, Hey, ly, look at me.
I can do a trick too.
And then they would let go of the horn and put their hands out to the
side or put their hands up in the air.
And that was their big trick.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And
Celisse Barrett: that was when I had the aha moment.
And I'm like, oh, okay, wait a minute.
Obviously know that holding onto a horse with no hands is not a trick,
but in their minds it was a trick.
Absolutely.
It's all a matter
Rupert Isaacson: of perception.
Celisse Barrett: Exactly.
And I was like, you know what?
I could work with this.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: This is cool.
And never in a million years did I ever, when I started trick writing,
did I think I would be incorporating it into the special needs world.
Okay.
And, but then I realized those kids taught me how empowering it was.
And I'm like, if they were this empowered by what little bit that
I did, how much more empowered can they be if I actually let them try?
And that's when it all started.
Rupert Isaacson: Now I can immediately hear like 25 old school therapeutic
riding people going, it's so dangerous.
You can't do that.
You know?
You can't.
Oh
yeah.
Do you know, because I get all that right.
You can't work with kids at the Canor, you can't work with
kids who can't wear a helmet.
You can't do this, you can't do that.
And of course, one absolutely can.
And I, I'm being used to be the one who gets the stick, you know, for doing those
sorts of things and like right into you and you're like, how do you even do it?
It's like, my hat's off to you.
So, yeah.
So you decided to do this.
Talk to me about how you envisaged the program and how you got it going
and then where you sort of encountered reality with it and then Yeah.
Yeah.
The whole sort of growth and maturation process of it.
'cause it's intriguing.
Celisse Barrett: So Ssie Lowell, she was the director of Camp Smile at the time.
The camp was moving and they were moving to a location where the
old therapeutic writing destruct instructor who was PATH certified,
could no longer travel that far.
And I said, well, how, and did that,
Rupert Isaacson: by the way, did that PATH instructor like what you were doing?
'cause path can sometimes be a little bit.
Celisse Barrett: I don't think she really, because at the time I had just
done the demonstration, I hadn't really do dove into therapeutic writing.
Yeah.
Or trained to do anything with equine therapy at that time.
And I don't, she really didn't have an opinion either way of it.
Right.
She was just there to put the kids.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Because you weren you weren't coming into her world as far
as she was concerned, right?
Correct.
Celisse Barrett: Correct.
I wasn't, I wasn't, yes, yes.
But she wasn't like,
Rupert Isaacson: wow, we should do this with the kids.
Like she must once she saw, or was she, I mean, once she saw the kids
throwing their hands in the air and say, Hey Miss Ali, I have a trick too.
Was she sort of inspired by that and coming to you saying, Hey, we should
do something like this here, or
Celisse Barrett: no?
I, I think it was more or less a Oh, that's really cute.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And that's where it was left.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And so, well, the next year I called the camp, I called
the director and I said, Hey, do you want me to come back and trick ride?
She said, well, we're moving locations.
We're not gonna have a horse program this year because the woman running
it can't come down to run the program.
And I said, well, what do you mean you can't have, like,
you're not having horses.
Like they come to camp for horses.
That is their, the one time of year they actually get on a horse
that's, they come to camp for that.
You have to have horses.
She's like, well, we don't have anyone that we trust that can run the program.
And I said, well, what does it take to run the program?
I mean, I've got horses that are great.
I mean, they're.
Circus horses, what, what can I do?
And and she said, well, you would use your professional horses.
And I said, well, what other horses would I use?
I, they're the ones I trust the most.
Mm-hmm.
Of course I would use my professional horses.
And I had only had two horses at the time, and I said, but I can train
some other horses if you have any horses that, or know of any of them.
And the director happened to own a couple horses and she said, well, let's,
if you want to try it, let's try it.
I'll help you get started.
And I had other couple other people that had helped with the horse program at the
old camp and and she said, I'll hook you up with these people and let's see what
we can do and if you like it, then I'll pay to go get you certified through path.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: And I did it the first year and of course I put on another
little trick riding show for the kids.
And we did that opening day and I just started using the little things
that I had learned at Dixie and a couple of little circuses and shows
that I worked for at the time, and incorporated those skills on a very
basic level into the therapy program.
One because I didn't really want my horses to be.
They weren't really lesson horses at the time.
Mm-hmm.
They were still my professional horses, so I didn't want the kids to be up there
and pulling on their mouths and mm-hmm.
And hurting 'em.
And I mean, it was completely out of their territory, but I knew the horses
were bombproof 'cause what they had been ex what my horses had been exposed to
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: Through my career.
And so
we did that for a year and then I was like, look, I'll, I'll, I'll take it over.
I wasn't actively performing at the time.
I was still training for trick writing, but I was doing little gigs here and
there with, you know, a circus group
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Celisse Barrett: Once or twice a year.
And outside of that, I was still looking for work.
I was working at a pet store down the road just trying to earn
money and put food on the table.
And Jason was working as a massage therapist at the at a big spa
downtown, at the Battle House.
So we hadn't really opened a huge program yet.
And
we were offered a place in West Mobile.
A family had, a woman had moved out of her house and the landowners
were looking for somebody to kind of take care of the property.
And it happened to be a s there happened to be a seven stall barn and seven acres.
And they said, if you wanna move your horses here and start a
therapeutic riding program in mobile, we'd love for you to do it here.
And it was just like the golden ticket I had driven by this property.
I don't know how many hundreds of times.
And the opportunity to leave was, or to leave where I was,
was, it was just perfect timing.
And you know, when it says when the stars align or when things just line up without
question and you just, I don't know.
I felt like I just had to kind of run with it.
How random was it that this person needed somebody to watch their house live on the
property and I could use it as my own?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Celisse Barrett: And I knew there was a need for therapy in town.
I was the first path instructor in Mobile, Alabama.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
But you don't normally meet path instructors that are trick riders.
You must be no one of a kind.
Celisse Barrett: I definitely I actually, when we did our path training, I stopped
telling people what I did because I didn't wanna talk about trick writing anymore.
I was just, I, I don't know.
I just, what was their reaction?
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Celisse Barrett: It, it was more or less how
I felt, I feel like, so for the traditional path person,
I feel like it was, oh.
You're one of those,
I'm like, one of what, what does that mean?
And I understand why, because if you only have seen rodeo trick riding and
you don't know what you're watching, yes, it looks absolutely crazy and mad.
And it looks like absolute chaos.
But as you know, as well as I do that, it is completely not like
that when it comes to trick writing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And
Celisse Barrett: I also had the chance for a while to work as a cosac writer with
a circus family for a show called Cir.
Well, it's now called Cir Maceo, owned by Alicia Oppe.
And Cosac Riding is really where I found
how important it was for
Rhythm.
It's where I learned rhythm and cadence with the horse.
Because for trick riding, you're in a open field and you're
running from point A to point B.
When you're in the circus ring, you're running in a circle and you can constantly
keep your flow going in the circle.
And it's almost like you can, it's a difference be, it's almost
like you can feel like you can break dance on the horse versus.
Just throwing a trick out and holding it for a second and then
coming back up and being done.
You can keep it, you can keep all the movements going and flowing.
And I, that's a show that you came and saw was in our circus ring.
The cossack ring.
And so
Rupert Isaacson: does cosac, is cossack riding defined by the ring?
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
And I think also in Europe too, I mean, a lot of them are cosac riders.
Mm-hmm.
Most of them train in the circle.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: But you can do it outside of the ring, but yeah,
mostly it's in America, it's trick riding if you're in the rodeo arena
and cosac, if you're in the circus.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Celisse Barrett: Although the tricks are the same for the most part.
Saddles are a little different, but it all the same for the most part.
But in the ring you have more control of the horse.
Yeah.
You can counter along, you can run alongside of the horse no matter how fast
they're going there, there is more of a rhythm and a more of a balance to it
than there is just in a big open field.
The horses require a little more collection and a little
more training, I think, than the typical trick riding horse.
Rupert Isaacson: I would say that's, that I have found, observed.
Yes.
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: So, but you find yourself among all the path people and
you're like, well, this is what I do.
And, and did you have some skepticism about, or I did.
Did they just assume that you were gonna not do that with your therapy?
Celisse Barrett: I think they assumed that I wasn't going to do that with
my therapy, although they I actually did put the students and one of
the instructors through one of my clinics at Path while I was there.
Did you?
Which was a lot of fun.
One of the ladies I taught her a cool trick and she was
worried that she couldn't do it because she had rods in her back.
Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh.
She was actually
Celisse Barrett: one of the, she was one of my peers at the time her name was Ann.
And I was like, I'm pretty sure you can do this move.
Like, you're, you're gonna be good.
And sure enough she did it first try.
And she was the oldest one out of the students and and
put everyone else to shame.
And so that was really cool.
'cause she got, she was super confident after she was able
to do this little maneuver.
It was all outta standstill of course.
And we kept it very safe.
But yeah, I knew once I set foot in path territory that my, what I was doing with
my kids was going to be questioned a lot.
Yeah.
Because everything was about saddles, helmets.
Safety, safety, safety, safety.
And yes, obviously you want to be safe and no, you don't wanna get anybody hurt.
Yeah.
But when they just don't know that world that you come from, they don't realize
how many times I've practiced on a barrel.
A stationary barrel before I ever put that stunt on a horse, or
how many pull-ups that I've done before I ever tried to vault.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, there's so much behind the scenes that people don't realize that
happens when you're a true rider.
Yeah.
An insane
Rupert Isaacson: amount of preparation that goes into training the horses to be
Celisse Barrett: Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.
Reliable.
Celisse Barrett: Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Probably more, much more reliable and certainly
fitter and more supple and happier and more fulfilled than your average
therapy horse in a therapy program.
Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Yes, absolutely.
And that was one thing that was really interesting that I did find in this,
along in this journey, was when I was using horses for the program.
'cause I, I went to path, did my certification, and I was
already teaching at the time.
They didn't know exactly what I was teaching.
And I was so nervous at the time to tell anybody, because I'm new
to this therapeutic riding role.
I didn't wanna lose my credentials over something that I knew the
kids, I mean, the kids loved it.
They loved learning how to turn around backwards on the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: Of course, we had, we had someone leading the horse.
We had two sidewalks.
I mean, there was no chance this kid was coming off the horse.
And I knew how good my horses were.
So unless a bomb went off, there was nothing that was gonna happen.
And but I was just terrified to tell anybody.
'cause as soon as I would open that door, it was instantly just slammed in my face.
I remember
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Now, the ju the negativity and the judgments unfortunately
with Path have been.
Quite shocking to me actually through the last 20 years of Horse Boy Method.
And the limitations oh yeah.
And the lack of preparation of horses and really the lack, you know, and
the knee jerk responses to condemn anything new that comes in while sort of
assuming that they're the gold standard.
And you look at them from the outside as a horse person, they're
like a proper pro horse person.
You're like, Hmm, sorry, but that's not very good.
You know?
And your horses aren't happy and they don't feel good, and if they
don't have wellbeing, how can they give wellbeing to a kid?
So, you know, there are of course many amazing path programs out there,
but we definitely found that the leadership of the organization was
antipathetic really to healing.
Celisse Barrett: Yeah.
Because it, well, and you're right, people can, the horses
were miserable.
Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, say that again.
I coughed over you.
I,
Celisse Barrett: I, you're good.
I said the horses were miserable.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: They had 35 horses in that program.
At the time and you couldn't take one horse up to that ramp
before they would start biting.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And I'm like, these horses are not happy.
These horses.
Like, I don't, I loved it when they wanted me to sidewalk.
I didn't wanna be a leader of any of those horses because I
didn't want my arm shoot off.
And I can't, I mean, not all path, like, like you said, not all path
instructors are bad by any means.
But as soon as I would, I remember we worked with one child who had very
low tone, no head control whatsoever.
And they put this big helmet on this child.
And I was like, well, why haven't you used, have you thought
about using wrestling helmets?
Their foam, their lightweight?
I use them all the time for the camp.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, 'cause the camp that I directed, the pro the horse program that I
directed at this camp, it was more or less working with kids and adults.
Not all of the kids and adults would make the cut as a therapeutic riding candidate.
A lot of it, a lot of them made the cut as more like make a wish.
Kids where you didn't know if they were gonna be here next year.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Celisse Barrett: And their bodies weren't gonna be able to hold
up to a therapeutic program.
But should they have the opportunity to sit on the back of a horse?
Absolutely.
And who am I to sit there and say, if the parents are saying yes, the directors
are saying yes, the child is saying, please, yes, let me sit on a horse.
Well, if I can give that to them, then why shouldn't I?
Especially if this is gonna be their last.
So you
Rupert Isaacson: know how to prepare a horse that's safe to do that job.
And happy to do that job.
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And I've seen your horses and I, I know how supple and well
muscled and mentally and emotionally happy they are because of all the,
you know, excellent training that you guys do your, your whole team.
So yeah, a horse like that is going to be able to say yes.
And it's, you know, I was upper in Michigan earlier this year at a path
center doing one, a training for one of our programs called Renew.
And they also were putting incredible time and training into their horses.
And suddenly it was, you know, I walked into there and go, wow, I'm not
used to seeing something, you know, of this caliber where the horses are
like fit and well and muscled and all being lunged and all being worked and
trail ridden and happy so that when they come in with the kids and, you
know, ridden in good dressage as well.
So when they come in with the kids, they're like, yeah,
rock and roll, let's go.
But in a soft, sweet way.
Sure.
But as you know, you know, so I, you know, I thought, wow, that is
a gold standard renew, by the way.
I'm sh giving a shout out to renew.
And Melissa who runs Renew 'cause they, they are amazing up
there in Grand Rapids mission.
I was just
Celisse Barrett: gonna ask you who was it?
'cause I, I was curious.
Yeah, it's
Rupert Isaacson: I'll connect you.
But yeah, renew is the program, grand Rapids Michigan.
And yeah, Melissa, who runs it, I'll, I'll put you in contact
'cause it's, it's, it's top notch.
But these of course are people who are also very, very educated
horse people and very open to
whatever field of excellence they can find to bring into their thing.
I, I can absolutely imagine how people must have looked at you
way back then and you Oh yeah.
Would've felt, yeah.
I just can't tell 'em, I just can't tell 'em what I'm doing.
Celisse Barrett: I couldn't, I had to, I mean, I had to lie and I felt so bad
because I wanted to be honest and I wanted to share the work, but every time
I did a door was slammed in my face.
And that's actually what led me to finding you.
Yeah.
Back in, I think we talked in 2017 or 2018 originally, and when you called me back
over the phone, I remember recognizing your voice from the documentary and
I'm like, oh my gosh, I know this voice and you left a message and I could not
believe you actually called me back.
I was floored that you were gonna even give me the time of day because
for so long, I mean, it was just one slam after another and I'm just
like, oh my gosh, is this, is anyone gonna listen to what I have to say?
Because that only word, can you describe
Rupert Isaacson: some of those slams?
Like, can you give us a couple of situations?
Celisse Barrett: So one was the, like the wrestling helmet.
That was one where I realized, okay, what I'm doing is a little bit outside
the box and I'm gonna have to be very careful with how I present this.
The lady had told me, I said, well, have you tried a wrestling
helmet on this student?
The kid can't hold his head up.
So you've got a two and a half pound helmet on this child's head.
Let's go to a wrestling helmet that's half a pound or a quarter
of a pound, like very lightweight.
And the woman replied, well, it's not gonna help the kid from, if
the kid falls off and hit it head.
It's not gonna stop the kid from getting hurt.
And I'm looking at the child going, this child is so fragile.
If this kid comes off the horse, it's gonna get hurt no matter what.
Hmm.
So if your helmet's not gonna stop the, I mean, if you're telling me
that the wrestling helmet is not gonna provide enough protection
for the child in general, like this kid has no head control, period.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, right.
And your, and your heavy helmet may actually damage this child's neck.
Celisse Barrett: Exactly.
Yeah.
Because with trick riding, we don't, we don't pr I mean, I've
been hurt trick riding with helmets.
Yeah.
Like, it, it hyperextends your neck.
It can hurt your vertebrae.
It can cause nerve damage.
Yes.
I believe helmets are a great thing for certain things that you're doing, but
for any type of gymnastic type sport, you've got to have the flexibility
in your vertebrae and in your body.
And a helmet can actually cause damage.
Yes.
It keeps you from a traumatic brain injury, but it doesn't
keep you from breaking your neck.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's very interesting that, for example, the vaulters, you know,
even at international level, nobody makes them wear helmets.
No one
Celisse Barrett: no
Rupert Isaacson: has anything bad to say about them not wearing helmets.
And they are standing up on horses, you know, cantering around and
jumping up and down on them, you know, and somehow it's accepted.
And of course it should be because if they were wearing helmets they
wouldn't, they'd injure themselves.
But it's so interesting how people separate, you know,
what's acceptable and what's not.
I'll tell you a funny story.
When my wife IA and I went to do our first trainings in Germany with
Horse boy we were at the office of the German Curatorium of Therapeutic
Riding, which is not like Path or RDA or Horse Boy or anything.
It's not like some standalone nonprofit.
It's a wing of government and it's a wing of the health ministry.
It's actually, you know, paid for and all of that by government there.
And because they were one of the first early adopters of, of equine assisted
staff, you know, way back in the fifties.
And we were nervous.
So we had put together, you know, a bunch of pictures of us working with helmets.
'cause we'd taken a lot of flack even though we'd written our own
insurance policies for when kids that could not, and of course most of our
kids did wear helmets, but the ones that couldn't neurologically Right.
We weren't going to traumatize them by making them do that.
Sure.
Anyway, we're, we're sitting there in the waiting room and we are
going through all the official literature and all the photographs.
Not one kid wearing a helmet.
We go into the, to have the interview with the director and we are like,
we've just been bricking ourselves out there, you know, and Yeah.
You know, what's the story?
And they're like, oh, we went through that 30 years ago.
Yes, there are many, many kids for whom wearing a helmet is deleterious.
So, the, the whole point is prepare your horse properly and yeah.
Be prepared in your practice, and then you're okay with this, but if
you're not, then, then you're not.
Yeah.
So, okay, so you, you, you ran into that, what, what other, you know,
'cause the standing up on the course I.
Celisse Barrett: Oh, well, that I never showed the videos of because I knew
instantly I was gonna get flack for that.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: Because how can you ensure that the kid isn't gonna
hurt themselves if they don't jump off or, you know, whatever and
Well, and at the time, path had just changed their back riding rules.
Yeah.
So we did a lot of back riding in our program.
Yeah.
I mean, we still do.
We, we believe in it wholeheartedly and we'll never change.
I mean, you have to back ride with some of these kids, and especially if
you're teaching them a certain stunt or you're teaching them a certain
balance, you gotta be their safety.
Absolutely.
So, one of them was, I sent her a video of Rock, my student who I
based a lot of my program around him because he was so untouchable
for so many, but not for me and him.
Like we had our thing and it was good.
And he was my inspiration to keep pushing and keep going for kids that
had, that were dealing with major sensory issues and overstimulation problems.
And so I sent a video of him into, I guess kind of like my path mentor.
And the first thing she commented on was not about the video at all, but what was
about my lunge line touching the floor.
And I'm like, that's what you saw over.
Like, he just did all this really cool stuff.
It was all like he had a sidewalk the whole time.
There's a safety person there jogging alongside of the horse.
He would step off the side of the horse, he would touch the ground while
the horse was moving at a trot in the sacking, and then he'd get back up on
the horse and get back to the saddle.
And I mean, not talking, I mean, we're talking about proprio reception
and the vestibular system and all of these great things that are
happening inside Rocky's brain.
And the only thing she had to say was, that was good, but
your lunge line's on the ground.
And I'm like, it.
Yeah.
Because he was dismounting and taking a bow and I waster turning the horse.
Nevermind.
And so I was just like, okay, I don't know if I'm gonna get
anywhere with any of these people.
And I couldn't bring any of this up, but I mean, I went to the regional
conference at the little Red Barn and I wanted to speak so badly, but I was
just afraid to share anything because any little bits and pieces I would share
would just get immediately shot down.
I mean, you would have people reamed, like for putting a child
on a horse without a helmet.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And it's interesting that the whole back riding thing, you know, one things
that struck me as so strange about that is it's completely racist because
what it's saying is they're writing off the entire culture of Northern Asia.
Which is big like including Mongolia and Kazakhstan is, and you know,
it's how all the kids grow up riding to ev all pretty much all of the
Americas west of the Mississippi.
'cause that's how most of the kids grow up in front of mom and dad in a west
and all of Central and South America.
So you're gonna, and you're just going to blanket from some White East coast
hunty idea of what equitation is because of course there are many equitation
that it never occurred to anyone that this was actually incredibly racist.
You know?
The, the people, the, the, the Mongolians or the Texans or the
Chileans or the, you know, would just be outraged by this because they said,
you know, we get around on horseback.
You guys do this as a hobby.
We live on horseback.
Yeah,
Celisse Barrett: absolutely.
Absolutely.
We rely on
Rupert Isaacson: horseback.
We do not have cars, you know, and we know horses and we know how to look
after horses 'cause we rely on them.
You do not.
Yeah.
You, you board them.
How dare you, you know, suggest that we, but what was interesting, I I, I
remember once 2018, actually the same year I think you came out, I was speaking
in Denver at the university there.
'cause they have that amazing program.
The human animal, connection institute there.
Mm-hmm.
On by Nina Fry, who's a visionary.
And I was quite honest on stage about how obstructive and even quite
vicious path had been towards us when we first appeared on the scene.
And what I didn't realize and how sad it had made me as an autism dad
because it made me realize, oh, you, you don't really want to help people
like my son because, you know, if you did, you'd be looking at everything.
But no, you're, you're closing off.
So what I didn't realize was that all of the puff board
were actually in the audience.
And but Betsy, I dunno if you remember Betsy, wonderful.
Betsy Carl, who was running the horse boy program at the time, happened to be a very
senior path instructor and still working one day a week at the Big Path place
in, in Austin, which is actually where we pioneered our program with veterans.
And I said, so what happened is I got an email saying we were in the audience,
should we talk from the path people?
Like, oh, this actually could be quite good.
So I, I said, yes, absolutely.
So, but I asked Betsy to be on the call too because she's a path
instructor and, so first thing I got was, well, we've never badmouthed you.
And we, I was like, oh, come on.
Why are we even having this conversation?
You know, of course you have, you know, but my question is why?
Like, what's your beef?
And they finally said, well, we think you are dangerous.
And I said, well, why?
What's the danger?
Like touch wood if in 15 back then now 20 years or more of practice,
we've never had an accident.
So, and we are op you know, we operate in 40 countries with scores of location,
so what danger are you referring to?
And they said, well, it's the back riding.
And I said, well, okay, but we haven't had any accidents with this.
And then they said, well, when we did it path we had it,
and then the penny dropped.
And I was like, well, of course you did, because you don't prepare your horse's
backs, you don't prepare your riders, you don't prepare the horses in collection.
You don't do any of that.
So if you take, yeah, some horse with a saw back that's just been donated
and you plunk some big old, you know, western saddle on you know, that sore
back and then you put a person and a half up there that's not gonna go well.
So fortunately Betsy, who was the you know, on the call, said, she
actually came, she cut in and she said, listen, I'm a senior path
instructor and I've never seen horses as well prepared as horse sport.
And it's, for me, it's the gold standard.
And so I said, listen, I, I get it.
You guys shouldn't back ride, but why are you condemning other people?
Who do you know who, who do, who do it?
Well, surely we should all be collaborating through
our different fields.
Surely that is what we should be doing.
So anyway yeah, it, it's been a struggle and I can only imagine
for you because you're taking it way further than, than we are.
And even the name of your program, equestrian Chaos, it's going to,
it's, it's, it's a great name.
'cause it's a great show and of course it's going to trigger them.
However, I have seen your show.
And I have seen you do the impossible.
And of course it's anything but chaotic.
It's of course precision work.
Can you talk to me now about, okay, so you realized that you had to,
you know, just go do your own thing.
How did you get insured and then how did you grow the program?
Celisse Barrett: We were insured through esure.
And I will say that there were things that I, and I hate to say this now, but there
were things I absolutely could not list on my insurance that I was doing, especially
here in the US because I knew that it wasn't, they were gonna look at it and
they were gonna go, what are you doing?
Why are you doing this?
And, you know, for something that, I mean, yes, I was certified as a path
instructor and I tried as best as I could to meet all of those standards.
And yes, I So you're insured through that agree that Yes, and I was insured through,
Rupert Isaacson: but you must have had a bit of a white knuckle going on,
like, shit, you know, if, if there were something were to happen and it turns
out that the kids doing a, a trick, would I, would my insurance hold up?
Celisse Barrett: Oh yeah, absolutely.
I was nervous as hell all the time, to be perfectly honest.
Okay.
But when I had parents coming up to me saying, Hey, can you teach my kid this?
There's one part of me that's going
do I do this for the greater good or do I do it for the insurance companies?
And I always had to pick the greater good because these parents were desperate.
They wanted something that worked and they were leaving other therapy
centers because they weren't getting
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Celisse Barrett: the same.
Rupert Isaacson: You're so brave.
What gave you the courage?
Because you had, you had a kid, you had a, a livelihood.
You know, what gave you the courage?
It,
Celisse Barrett: you know, it was one of those things where
you just, I just had to trust,
I don't know, whatever you wanna call it, universe, God, however,
that, you know, you're just, you just gotta go with a gut feeling.
And that's what I did.
And yes, I always kept it very, very controlled.
We never pushed, we never took risk with the kids, ever.
Just because I didn't, you know, one, I didn't want the red tape and
I didn't want people breathing down my neck and I didn't want us to be
shut down because it was such a cool thing that we were doing with them.
And it was working, it was working phenomenally.
Which is partly, again, reason why I contacted your program.
I mean, I couldn't find anybody to give me any continuing education hours or
to tell me why it was working so well.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
I'm
Celisse Barrett: like, I'm having these kids up here who are.
I mean, I mean, we're not doing anything wild and insane.
I mean, they're moving at a walk and at a trot, very few are moving at
a canner, doing tricks, but stand still at a walk and at a trot.
And they're getting this full physical workout, not including the, all the
benefits that come with what's happening physically within their bodies.
And, but I know when it's unchartered territory, it's hard to get those,
to get others to believe you in what you're in the work that you're
doing and that it is beneficial.
Yeah.
Well, where's the, where's the data?
That's what everyone wants.
Where's the data?
Show me the, show me the medical benefits of it.
I'm like, I'm a, I'm a nobody out here.
Like I'm seeing the results.
I've got a waiting list of 40 people that wanna come in on this program,
but I, I can't take anyone else.
I don't have the funds to show you all the data.
I mean, I can give you my notes that I wrote every day
after every after every lesson.
But I mean, I tried to get doctors to come out and look at what I was doing.
I tried to get physical therapists to come out to watch what I was doing.
And at the time, I mean, again, we're talking now 10, 15 years
ago, people were still afraid.
I mean, and that's right when all that, that path stuff happened and I
just kind hidden the shadows for a while and I probably could have
grown the program much bigger.
But when you are hiding in the shadows.
It's hard to speak your truth when you don't know how it's going to
be reciprocated from Well, it's not
Rupert Isaacson: a good idea to speak the truth when the Spanish Inquisition
are the ones you're speaking to.
Celisse Barrett: Exactly.
And so they're gonna
Rupert Isaacson: be, they're not gonna do good things with that truth.
Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: No, and, and back to the path thing for a second, like,
and it, it did bother me when they did banned back riding because what
bothered me most was if you offered hippotherapy, you could back ride.
I'm like, oh, so if you can only bill it under insurance,
you can offer back riding.
But a therapeutic riding instructor can't back ride with their students.
Rupert Isaacson: Just
Celisse Barrett: because I'm not a physical therapist or an occupational
therapist or a speech language pathologist, I can't back ride.
And that really turned me sour.
I'm like, so they have to be approved by insurance and I have to be able
to bill insurance to be able to do these things with these kids.
And it was just for me, I'm like, since when did the insurance
companies have to dictate what can and can't be done or approved?
And that always soured me.
And I was like, you know what?
I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing.
The parents are asking for it.
I can't tell them No, the benefits are, I mean, you could see the
benefits right then and there.
I mean, and it was empowering these kids in ways that I've
never seen any other program do.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you have a, because I think, I think what's so
wonderful is it's not just this, this is not just the thing you're
doing, you know, in the ring, in the.
Equine assisted sessions, which is amazing enough.
Oh, that's my ghost.
But you are including them in the show, and that's something which
I wanna go into in a little while.
But just before we get to your show, and, you know, some of the stuff I've seen you,
you, you do in there at what point did you sort of become, if you like, legitimized?
Did it shift at a certain point?
Celisse Barrett: It probably shifted,
I wanna say around 2015 1415 when
there was, with no doubt in my mind
this is what needed to happen.
And it wasn't for, there's nothing big that really set it off that
just, I was just tired of hiding from it all, to be perfectly honest.
Yeah.
And I'm like, someone's gonna have something to say.
If they put me on the chopping block, then whatever, I'll just go
on the chopping block and I guess.
No, I mean, all press is good press.
I don't, I don't know.
But
I was tired of being nervous about it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean,
Celisse Barrett: and just being nervous on a daily basis is
enough to send anyone spiraling.
You know, emotionally.
And
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Celisse Barrett: we knew it needed to happen.
We knew what we needed to build it.
Just, if I couldn't get anyone to listen, then fine.
I'm just gonna do it on my own and not worry about path, not worry about
keeping my credentials, not worrying about doing it by the book and making
my own, just making our own thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Did your insurance status change?
Did you, did you, did you change it at a certain point?
Celisse Barrett: No, I did not.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: I went into it and they all knew when they signed my
release form, that trick writing was not covered under my insurance.
That, you know, this is at your own risk.
Okay.
And what was shocking to me was that all the parents did not care.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
They
Celisse Barrett: were like, sign this up, we don't care.
Okay.
It's working.
I'd have parents tell me we went to Boston for treatment and the same
benefits they would get in my backyard were the same benefits that they kept
flying to Boston and staying there for two weeks and then coming back home.
They're like, so why do we fly to Boston if we can come just see you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Absolute.
And I'm, I'm like, wow.
Celisse Barrett: That was, that was big to hear.
But also heavy at the same time because I knew that, all right, this is.
I gotta just keep fighting for what I know we can do and what these kids need.
I mean, it was great for the horses, it was great for the kids.
I mean, it was a win-win for everybody all the way around.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, in the best horses for this program were trick riding horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
No, I would agree.
I would agree.
Having seen your, having seen your horses and your program, so
talk us through your methodology.
What tricks, what are your go-tos like, I saw what you did with my son and he
was standing by the end of it, you took him through this very systematic step
by step thing with the stationary horse in the small Cossack arena and mm-hmm.
By the end of that process, you and Brooke had him standing on
the horse and he came out of it.
Do you remember how ecstatic he was on that Yes.
Visit with you And not just that, but also all the stuff he was doing
on the quad with Jason and mm-hmm.
It's, for him it was a, even that was 2019.
It's one of the high point memories that he has.
So I watched you work in this really systematic and Brooke way.
Shout out to Brooke 'cause she's incredible too.
Your right hand.
And also Marley, your daughter who's in a league of her own talk us through.
The step by step methodology of equestrian chaos and what you do.
Celisse Barrett: So I had to learn to break it down literally from step one.
If you want to,
if you want to be able to, okay, let's just use standing up, for example.
Well, if you wanna be able to do the hippodrome, you gotta be able to
put your feet in the straps first.
That's where it starts.
And so
that would be, for example, that would be step one.
Let's actually, no, that wouldn't even be step one that, do you get
your feet in the hippodrome straps?
Well, we're gonna sit on the croup of the horse for a second.
We're just gonna go here and put our feet in this position, if you can do that.
Okay, good.
You've got step one.
Now let's go to step two.
We're gonna slide back again in this weird, uncomfortable area on
the horse, and then we're gonna put our feet in these straps.
Excellent.
You did that.
Perfect.
Let's take your feet out.
Let's slide back to the saddle again.
Now let's try step three.
We're gonna slide back to the horse, put our feet in the straps.
Now we're going to sit back to the saddle where you're in a
more of a scrunched up position.
It's a little more uncomfortable if you're comfortable with that.
Perfect.
Now we're gonna go on to step four, where you're gonna.
Put your feet in the straps or slide your feet back, put your feet up on the,
into the straps slide back forward again.
Then we're going to lift ourselves up a little bit and hang onto the horn
and hang onto the main of that horse.
We're not gonna really stand up, we're just gonna kind of crouch for a minute.
Does that feel comfortable?
Okay.
If it's a yes, then we'll continue from there.
If it's a no, that's all we're gonna do.
We're only gonna get to whatever.
I mean, I'm talking, breaking it down.
Every movement is a step in this line of teaching.
So rowan's sake, he, he did all of it.
He got to the back of the horse, got his feet in the straps.
We will also provide security as well.
We'll hold onto the ankle, into the shin.
Just like you were, if you were balancing on standing on somebody's
shoulders, you're gonna give them a little support on their shins.
That way they can kind of have a little more bracing
and feel a little more stable.
So that's what we did with Rowan.
Now let's see if you can stand up higher, because if you can crouch on the horse
in that what kind of position, I guess kind of a jockey type position, then
you can absolutely stand all the way up.
But mentally standing up is a lot different than just
crouching in your safety zone.
So.
That's what we did.
Again, let's crouch and let's see how that feels.
Does that feel okay?
Can you let go for a second while crouching, you know?
Now my first rule is always find the horn.
So once they get into that position, I'll have them let go for a second.
Then I have them reach for the horn again, and then I have them softly sit back down.
And then all of a sudden, once they've gone through all those little tiny
steps, then the next one is, all right, let's see if you can stand.
And we're not gonna move, we're just gonna keep the horse still.
You're gonna stand, we're gonna count.
We give, we give a count, because that's a goal.
If we can get to three, the person is focused on hitting that number
three and not so much, you know, how long do I have to be up here?
There's a clear focused goal, number three.
So we'll stand up 1, 2, 3, and then we're gonna find that horn like we
talked about, and we're gonna sit down nice and soft on the horse's back.
And if they can do all that, and with somebody in the back, on the back of the
horse, helping them, supporting them with sidewalks and someone leading the horse,
we can go through all those motions.
Then we can put it into motion at a walk, and then we start it all over again.
Hey, you just went into this position on the croup of the horse.
You're gonna sit there and we're just gonna walk, and you're gonna
feel what that feels like, period.
And then once they discover, oh, well that doesn't feel so bad, I can do it.
Okay, great.
Now let's put those feet in the straps.
Then once they realize they can balance, I mean, if they can do everything that
I put them through at a standstill, they can definitely do it in motion.
It's just being able to get them to believe they can do it.
So it's training in this very basic baby step type method,
but with the belief constantly reassuring, Hey, look, you did it.
Yes.
All right.
If you got this, then you can definitely do this move.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me about the support people.
So you're talking about having someone on the horse with them to stabilize
them as well as the ground people?
Because of course if, if someone is sort of adult size and they need to come off
quickly, it's hard if they're, if they're standing up to sort of dismount them and
they might weigh 200 pounds, you know?
So, you know, and, and Brooke for example, you know, I watched her
when she was up there with Rowan.
I mean, she's half his size right?
Of course.
She's incredibly strong, incredibly athletic, and incredibly professional
in what she does to see how you could stabilize large people.
Talk to us about how do you, what's your system for organizing the support people?
Celisse Barrett: So I use everything from gait belts, different types
of safety rigging, if I have to put it on the person if they cannot.
Feel, if they don't feel comfortable doing everything at a standstill,
we don't go onto anything in motion.
We simply can, can, and you'll have someone
Rupert Isaacson: up there with the horse on the horse with them stabilizing
them sometimes also at the standstill.
Right?
Absolutely.
Almost like a vaulting team on a horse.
Celisse Barrett: Correct.
Yeah.
Those Olympic vaulting teams that require four and five riders
on a horse at one time, but yet we can't back ride with ours.
Yeah.
Those
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Yeah.
So, yeah, I'll have somebody up there to help stabilize.
And now if they do get to a certain weight where we don't, where we
know we can't physically hold them.
Yeah.
We'll, we'll, we'll do another maneuver.
'Cause we don't wanna put ourselves.
Okay.
What would you, what would
Rupert Isaacson: you do in, in the case of someone who's at that size?
Celisse Barrett: I would probably, let's start with learning
how to ride backwards first.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: Let's start with learning how to do it around the world where
they're still in control and if they do slide off the horse, we are there to catch
them and guide them to the ground at a much slower pace where they're much lower.
Rowan was an exception because yes, he was tall, but he was still within the
weight limit that we felt comfortable.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Whereas somebody who's, you know, 225 pounds, we probably wouldn't do that
because that would be, unless I had, you know, something, some belay rigging set
up where, you know, we could actually attach them to a harness, which is,
that's one of our goals for the future that maybe we'll get to in this podcast.
But, yeah.
Our goal even, well, what we would like to do is be able to, when as we're
rebuilding our program, have a facility where you ever watch ice skaters practice.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
When they
Celisse Barrett: practice all the lifts and they practice the triple axles and all
those spins, they have a, a belay system that's on a track in the rink so they
can practice these things without ever killing themselves landing on the ice.
Rupert Isaacson: Like a sort of aerial support.
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
I would love, my dream is to build an arena where I could use that track to be,
to keep this program going where people of all shapes and sizes could experience
what we do, but with full safety rigging.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: Somebody with my knee injury, the best thing
for my knees was Roman riding.
If I, I never thought I'd say that in a million years.
That's counterintuitive.
Yeah.
The stability that I gained after tearing both my acls and learning how
to, like, teaching myself again how to Roman ride, no matter what form of
physical therapy I did Roman riding made me so, made my knees so strong.
The only problem with Roman riding is what happens when you
eat dirt and hit the ground.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: So if you could have a safety contraption.
Put in a covered arena where you wouldn't have to worry about rehabbing
people, you wouldn't have to worry about hitting the ground, and you could still
get all the benefits of Roman riding.
And if for whatever reason they lost their balance, it wouldn't hurt the horse.
You would just catch 'em on the rigging and, you know,
you just have to reset again.
You could, your goals could get so much further than just having to
worry about having so many spotters.
So there was always limits to you follow where I'm You follow what I'm saying?
Rupert Isaacson: I do, absolutely.
And I'm gonna, we're gonna get there where actually I want to find out what it would
cost to put that in and, you know, do a bit of a shout out to our listenership and
our viewership to perhaps help with that.
Have you, but just before we, we we go to that stuff.
Have you had special needs people Roman writing?
Celisse Barrett: I have Incredible.
Rupert Isaacson: You had Rock Roman
Celisse Barrett: writing.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell, so tell us about Rock.
Give us Rock's biography.
Okay.
And how did you get in Roman writing and what was the result for him?
Celisse Barrett: Oh, I love Rocky.
Rocky's great.
So Rock came to us back in the, my very first days after
me becoming a path instructor.
And I was doing everything by the book The Way Path.
Said it, do it like this, do it like this.
And I was like, okay, I'm gonna stick to what I know, what I've been taught, and.
It wasn't working.
Yeah,
he, he had a great, he had a great like first month and then all
of a sudden he's regressing bad.
He's trying to bite me.
He's hitting the horse, he's hitting his family members.
He's biting the sidewalks, he's hitting them.
And anytime he was on a horse, it was just going backwards and
I was failing him as a teacher.
Rupert Isaacson: And why was it going backwards?
Celisse Barrett: I'm sorry?
Rupert Isaacson: Why was it going backwards?
Celisse Barrett: Oh, why well, at the time I didn't know why it was going
backwards, but he was definitely not comfortable and it was not putting him in
that state that I wanted to see him in.
He would get on the horse for a minute and then he was off again.
And Rocky, if you, once you know about him and his family, like,
oh, Rocky is an adrenaline junkie.
He's the kid that you have to call the fire department for because he's climbed
a tree and he literally can't get down.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Celisse Barrett: And so
I was hoping and praying that his mom would ask me to
teach him how to trick ride.
I'm like, I feel like Rocky wants more than he just, he doesn't want pony rides.
He needs something where he can physically challenge himself.
Because when you know about his history again, and he can obviously
Rupert Isaacson: follow, follow direction.
Right.
He can follow top down instructions.
Celisse Barrett: He can to a point.
His brother was a huge cult.
His brother was a huge asset to me, teaching Rocky how to trick ride.
So we stopped riding after a while.
His mom's like, you know what?
He's getting violent.
Let's just stop for a minute.
His mom happened to be a professional dancer at one point
in her life for a football team.
I believe she was a dancer for the Dallas Cowboys.
And she called me up and she's like, look, do you mind
teaching him how to trick ride?
And I was like, what?
Rupert Isaacson: What was his diagnosis, by the way?
Celisse Barrett: Au Autism.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: That's, that's it.
I don't know where he is.
He is, he gets overstimulated very easily.
He has no patience to wait for anything.
He's not very verbal.
He will talk once in a while, but it's, you're not gonna have a
conversation with Rock the way you and me and Rowan have a conversation.
Okay.
He is very different and when he does get angry, he lashes out and or he runs.
Mm-hmm.
And that boy can run like nobody's business.
Um mm-hmm.
That's the story for another day.
But chase him down with a car once he took off.
He was, he was like a half mile down the street before I could even get outta
the driveway with his helmet on, though.
He had his helmet on, so at least everyone knew where he was running from.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
But anyway but I was really worried in the beginning if it was going to work
because for a kid who got overstimulated about everything, now she's asking
me to teach him how to trick ride.
Now I have to touch him.
I have to physically move him in certain positions and how
is he going to receive that?
And as soon as he realized what I was asking to do and he could tune into
the sensation of having to balance on the horse, everything changed.
It was like a flip switched in Rocky's head and he wanted more of it.
So by the end, and we did this for five or six years, when you came to
the show, you saw Rock probably in the most uncomfortable experience that
he's had because he had just hurt his leg and he wanted to be in the show so
badly, but he didn't have the ability to do all of the stunts that he was
doing because his leg was in a cast.
But he still wanted to be there.
Rock when we would do shows, our, our call time for every
student was an hour before a show.
Rocky's call time was five minutes before the show started, because
if he sat around, I would lose him.
Yeah.
Like he would, he, he, he could not sit around and wait.
That was not what Rocky did.
So by the end of it, Rocky Could Rock, could step off the side of the
horse at a run, touch the ground.
Get back up on the horse.
He could do it around the world of complete 1 360, turn on the
horses in the saddle at a run.
And he could stand, stand up with
Rupert Isaacson: the horse in Cantor.
Celisse Barrett: In a cantor.
Yes.
And he could stand up on the horse at a run.
Rupert Isaacson: At what age?
Celisse Barrett: And, and he was 16 or 17.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: When he was, when before he, we program.
It's funny, I can
Rupert Isaacson: feel my own neurons firing.
Boom.
As you talk through the process, even at the standstill.
Yeah.
Let alone what the explosion of neuroplasticity that this must cause.
Celisse Barrett: Oh.
Oh.
And he learned how to vault.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
At a
Celisse Barrett: trot.
He never trotted at a canner, but he trotted at a, he vaulted at a trot.
And the day he figured out how to vault up onto the horse, tr trying to teach
a nonverbal man basically how to can't, how to manipulate their bodies to jump up
on a, on a moving animal was so tricky.
But he did it.
And
Rupert Isaacson: incredible.
Celisse Barrett: A lot of it was us, like whisking him up there at
just the right time to help him understand what he was supposed to do.
But Rock was a kid that he, if he could feel it, he could do it.
Okay.
And once he felt it, he loved it.
And I remember like in the show, the show that you watched, I don't know
if you were there the very last day.
No.
You had left, the people watched him.
He was having a moment because he had his leg in the cast and
it was overstimulating for him.
Rupert Isaacson: And I looked
Celisse Barrett: at him, I said, Rocky, do you want a canter on Romeo?
And he said, yes.
And I said, okay.
So what we would do, and he was overstimulated, was I'd just take him out
there in the ring and I would just canter I'd, I'd say, all right, Romeo Hop and
Romeo would just canter in the circle.
Everybody thought that was the trick.
That was not the trick.
That was me getting rocky back, mentally focused.
And we would just go around and around and around and until I could
see the calm just come over him.
'cause he just, he loved the ride.
He loved
Rupert Isaacson: the, almost like lunging a horse and
waiting till the eye gets soft.
Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
That's exact It's, that's exactly it.
Yes.
I would lunge rocky on the horse waiting till his eyes just softened up.
And then he was like, okay, I'm good.
And everyone started to cheer.
And Rocky would look at me and I look at him and we're like, we haven't
even gotten started yet, guys.
Like that was just, that was the warmup.
Hang on.
And so, but for a boy who couldn't be touched to a boy who now wanted to perform
in front of lights and sound and all this other stimulate, stimulating environmental
stressors, he freaking thrived in it.
Hmm.
And the reason why I always talk about him is because I knew if I
could get a breakthrough with rock.
Then I could get a breakthrough with so many others because he was
so hard to get a breakthrough with.
And it was just, again, learning more about him.
Who was he?
He loved adrenaline.
The Roman riding, he did very great.
He did great with that in the beginning.
How did you get, how did
Rupert Isaacson: you show him how to do it?
Did you have to stand behind him?
Celisse Barrett: Yes, there were actually, oh, this was a lot of people.
We had two per, two people on the head of each Roman riding horse.
And then we had a sidewalk on
the one, the left side of the horse.
On the left horse.
A sidewalk on the right side of the horse or on the, I'm sorry.
The right when you're ro riding, you have a left foot and a right foot horse.
You have one side walker on the left, one side walker on the right horse.
And then we had two back riders.
Wow.
And I had ropes set up.
Yeah.
So to get him to rum and ride, it took 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 of us
to give him this experience.
And so I would back ride.
Brooke would back ride on the other woman riding horse.
And then as he would, and then we were, her and I were on the cr of the horses.
And then I would just show him, all right, step one, you're gonna kneel.
And rock was really great at copying what we did.
And so what was neat was once he was able to stand up and he was
holding onto ropes that I had onto the, I had placed on the rigging.
He never had the reins in his hands.
But once he was able to stand up, his body would self adjust.
Like you could see him losing his balance and he would pick up his foot
and he would put it down in a new place on the back of the horse naturally
without me having to say anything.
And so it was really teaching him to find this self-awareness that he had to find.
Instinctually, there's nothing but when it comes to Roman riding, you
can tell everybody in the world what to do, but there's a matter
of just doing it and getting up there and standing on the animals.
I mean, it, it's, I think it's the hardest stunt to do, honestly.
Yeah.
I mean, it's the one stunt you're not attached to the horse, to, you're
literally surfing on two surfboards that have two different minds of their
own and they're not always going the same speed and they're not always,
you know, moving in the same rhythm.
Yeah.
And so
what he was doing naturally was I was, I was floored by it because he was being
able to, being able to self adjust and he, he wouldn't last very long in the arena.
He would maybe last, he could maybe stand for a full lap around the arena, which
is actually pretty good out a, that's lot Roman
riding.
Like, that's a lot.
Before, like, it was a lot, but, and he did it so well.
And he just really learned how to move his body.
No.
Did he ever take the reins and Roman ride?
No, he did not.
But could he stand on two moving horses walking around an arena?
Yes, he could.
Rupert Isaacson: And he could do that in the show, and that's
Celisse Barrett: hard.
He never did that in the show.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
No.
But
But even so, yeah, it's a massive achievement.
Celisse Barrett: Yes, absolutely.
The show was, the show was harder for Roman riding because
we were in such a smaller area
Yeah.
Of our performances.
And that for him to Roman ride, we really needed to be like on our track at home
where we had a lot of straight lines so he could really find his balance.
I could
Rupert Isaacson: see that.
But each of the fact that you do it at all where is Rocky now?
What, what, what's he doing?
Celisse Barrett: I have not seen Rock in probably for three, three
years, probably since COVID.
He has gone through,
he's gone through quite a bit.
I know with him he is, had some,
he is, had some issues again where he is become, I mean,
he, he's outgrown his mom now.
He's like six foot two or whatever, and he's strong as an ox.
And so there were some behavioral issues that they were working.
On with him and the horse that he was, Roman Ro the hor Romeo has since retired.
Yeah.
Romeo's 23 now.
So I
Rupert Isaacson: remember Romeo.
Celisse Barrett: Yeah.
He's, he's still around.
And so when Romeo kind of started fizzling out and Rocky started
getting bigger, I knew that I was gonna have to find another horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And 'cause Romeo could only take, you know, do so much.
And at that time, I mean that was, he was 19, Romeo was 19 at the time, 18 or 19.
And so it was just becoming a little bit much for Romeo to be able, and it,
it all kind, everything kind of changed during c for us in the equestrian
chaos show that we were once doing.
Yeah.
And and so now that we have a new herd of horses I haven't really seen rock,
but I would like to bring him back out and start doing some more stuff with him
once the new horses are a little more,
Rupert Isaacson: is he living at home?
Is he in an assisted living situation?
Celisse Barrett: He is at, he is at home right now.
He did go to a hospital for a while.
He was becoming violent again.
And unfortunately there was no choice but to send him to a hospital.
Yeah.
Because he was becoming dangerous and this is, no, it's not confidential.
This is all stuff his mother has posted online.
Okay.
And.
I believe now what they are doing with him.
And that's been very helpful.
I don't know how much you know about ketamine infusions.
Rupert Isaacson: I do, yes.
Celisse Barrett: But he is actually going through ketamine treatments.
He goes once a month.
How interesting.
Have no infusion and has been, is
Rupert Isaacson: that in the state of Alabama?
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And they've legalized that there.
That's so interesting to me because it's such a conservative state.
Celisse Barrett: Yeah.
There's a place called Holistic Health in Theodore, Alabama, and they do ketamine
infusions, and they've been doing it with rock, and it has been a game
changer for him, according to his mom.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So,
Celisse Barrett: We talked about a month ago about the infusions actually.
And she's like, he still has problems, but they're nothing like they were.
And he can come, he's living at home.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: But, but you know, I mean, that is a, you know,
I often do wonder a lot of my students, what's gonna happen as they
Rupert Isaacson: age, age out.
Well, it would be very interesting to bring him back.
As you, you may know, I dunno if you know that, you know, since we've
been in contact, we, we have a new program called INE Equine Integration.
And Taine is a, is a Mongolian word.
It's for the WildHorse, it means honored one or revered one.
And I've always rather like the fact that the Mongolians sort of honor the
essential wild nature of the horse.
And so I wanted to nick that for, you know, a program title.
I like that.
But what it is, is, you know, we, as you know, incorporate all the dressage.
And we started running out of time because we had so many clients to
train and condition the horses.
And I went through a lot of stress and then I had like a duh moment.
I'm like, it's the clients who are the trainers.
They should be the trainers.
They, they're so good with the horses.
The horses love them.
They can absolutely lunge horses, work in hand with horses, long rein horses.
And out of that, a program called Tacking has arisen, which quickly took off also
with veterans and first responders.
And 'cause, you know, we could say, Hey, this horse is broken in service.
You know, 'cause donation horses often are, would you help me put
this horse back together please?
So it can serve this autistic person over there.
And the horse gets what it needs.
The adult artist or the veteran or the person with trauma or whatever
kind gets what they need without ever having to talk because it's just, they
are repairing this horse, which is of course a metaphor for themselves.
And learning to be like really good horse trainers.
And then of course the barn owner is I me is, is getting what they need
because that takes all the stress away because suddenly the thing that
I was battling for time to do is now incorporated into the, it is a program.
And I wonder if something like that might be good for him.
So that might be the next stage for us to talk about, to bring that program perhaps.
To equestrian chaos, because that was gonna be my next question actually.
You know, d as you describe what you have to do, including sitting on the croup and
that sort of thing, I know again, you'll have, you know, a bunch of listeners,
you can't sit on the croup of a horse.
Yeah.
Well, you can of course, if you strengthen the croup massively.
Right.
And train the horse that way.
But, you know, set the horse up for success by, so talk to
us about how you condition and train and strengthen the horses.
What's the process?
Celisse Barrett: We always start in the round, in the round pin first, always.
We do a lot of working in checks with the horse.
We try to get the horse balanced moving freely as much as we can.
Without moving checks means
Rupert Isaacson: like side res?
Celisse Barrett: Side res?
Yes.
Yeah.
Just trying side res.
Yes.
All strengthening and balance first.
I've learned very quickly that it's very easy to throw horses back out Yes.
If they're not ready for trick riding.
Yes.
So, we prepare them in the ring equally on both sides.
First then once we get a little bit of flexibility, then
we start working on cardio.
And we do a lot of Marley's big into Polo Cross and she's one of my main
cardio trainers, I guess out here.
But she can put some cardio on a horse like nobody's business.
And she controls their stats.
She watches their.
Still monitor their heartbeat, their respira respiratory rate, and we
wanna get them to a certain point in their cardio so we can kind of push
further into the flexibility work.
Mm-hmm.
And then when it comes to, and all this happens, I mean, it sounds like it's
fast, but it's not all this can happen.
It depends on the horse, but anywhere from a month to three
months, depending on where the horse is and how much they re but
Rupert Isaacson: once they're, and once they're in the program,
what's your conditioning, strengthening sort of day-to-day?
Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: For, so basically once they're in the program, they're
still working on a lunge line between one to two days a week.
Okay.
Just if they're not working, then they're, we don't ever bring them in.
Yeah.
Side brains on just
Rupert Isaacson: working that back muscle.
Working the top line.
Yeah.
Just
Celisse Barrett: working the back muscles.
And then we take them out when we start with tricks,
everything is done very slowly.
It's much harder for a horse to balance the slower that
they are, the weaker they are.
Okay.
And so we start with very little weight shifting on both
sides of the animal first.
Okay.
We'll step off the side of the horse, we'll say, okay, we'll walk
this straight line down the side of the arena, then we'll get back to
the saddle, and then we're gonna do the same thing on the other side.
We may do that for
another couple of weeks.
Until I know that their back is good and then we'll pick it up to a trot.
Again, doing it all in very small increments until it just
becomes natural for the horse.
We try our, we don't wanna ever soar them too fast because we want them to
always like what their job is and mm-hmm.
What they do.
We do a lot of trail riding when we can.
Everyone needs a vacation and the horses need it too.
If they're constantly working in the ring, they don't wanna go in the ring.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Celisse Barrett: We do a lot of liberty stuff with our horses as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: Just to keep it, keep it fun, keep them
moving and keep them engaged.
Mm-hmm.
But normally, I mean, their work week, it's typically when we're finished doing
it all, usually we're trick riding on them once or twice a week with practices.
And then the rest is just the fine tuning work, whether it's cardio, whether we're
working on maybe tr working more off fine tuning leg pressure or you know,
Roman riding if they're, we kind of take that as a win 'cause it kind of works.
Both we're working cardio.
Roman riding's a lot of cardio For the horse, it's not so much, and for
us, it's not really like trick riding.
I mean, it's, you're taking the weight off of you and you're putting yourself,
I mean, you're distributing your weight on two horses instead of one.
And so, mm-hmm.
We do a lot of ponying with our horses as well.
If we know one needs cardio, but it maybe it's too weak, then we pony the
one horse while we're long trotting while we're riding the other horse.
Mm-hmm.
And so we just kind of constantly try to change it up like that.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But with, with sort of solid lunging, two to three times a week to keep that
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Back muscle in the loin and the croup.
Strong.
Celisse Barrett: Lots of cavalletti constantly working on
footwork, lunging over cavalletti.
Sometimes we'll put a small jump in the arena or in the ring just so they
can really fine tune their footing and get confident within themselves.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Celisse Barrett: And that's, that's a lot of it for the most part.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's a lot.
It, it, well, but it, you know,
as you know, many, many therapeutic riding places do not do this.
And so horses may or may not be there for really well in body and mind.
And the question in my mind if, if they're not, is how can they transmit wellbeing
if they themselves don't have it to give.
And it's often not the fault I think of the people who might be running a
program where that's not going on because.
Maybe they haven't had that education.
But it's you know, I know I'm always looking for people who are really
open to how, how can we get better and better at our horsemanship?
Not, yeah.
Just say, well, I I don't do that stuff because I only do this stuff, you know?
Okay.
So there's one other person I'd like you to tell us about a little bit.
I remember during the show there was a very big African American
young man who had, had suffered a terrible football injury, right?
Um mm-hmm.
And I found him really intriguing because
there was
so much going on inside of him.
Yes.
But what he could express was so, so, so just, you know, a twinkle
in the eye and a half smile from that man, you know, said volumes.
Tell us a little about him and how he ended up in your program and,
and, and where he went with you.
Celisse Barrett: That was Tim . I met him at Camp Smile.
He came to Camp Smile the year after he had his football accident.
He was given an award.
He was on his way to pro.
And people were starting to look at him.
Scouts were looking at him and he was the
What's the word I'm looking for?
The result of the helmet defects that were going, that were happening.
What was that?
So we got hit on the field in his helmet.
He had a, he had a defective helmet,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Celisse Barrett: And suffered a traumatic brain injury.
He got hit on the field, was conscious.
And then right about two or three minutes after he was hit he
collapsed and suffered a brain bleed.
And that is what paralyzed him on his left side completely.
So when he came to us, he was probably about 250 pounds strong as an ox
because he just came from like a full football career or on his way
to doing a full-time football career, to now living in a wheelchair.
And the fight for Tim was to try to get him as independent as possible
in trying to get his brain to rewire everything as best as we could.
That was the doctor's plan.
The mom, his mom was a warrior of a woman, and I tell you, she fought
for him like every person needs.
Evelyn, his mom, like Evelyn was amazing, is amazing.
And just such a fighter for him.
But he lost everything on his left side.
He lost the ability to talk.
He lost the ability to walk.
And so
when we started working with him, I'm like, okay, if we can't, if you can't use
your left side, let's use your right side.
And coming from he, oh, and also before Tim had his accident, he actually
was a musician as well, and he cut his own record in a recording studio.
So in our show, when he would perform his act, he wanted to perform it to his song
and he wanted people to hear his voice.
So we always played that when he would take the stage.
'cause we wanted people to know who Tim was.
'cause he was still Tim and he was a rap
Rupert Isaacson: singer, right?
Celisse Barrett: He was, yes he was.
And so, in the beginning it took five of us, five or six of us, to
successfully give Tim a horse experience.
And then by the time you saw him, he could ride for short periods of time.
He could ride totally on his own with the right horse.
We would never leave him alone
very long.
Because obviously if he were to fall.
He was high risk with already having a brain injury.
We didn't want him to, we, we'd always keep things very controlled.
Mm-hmm.
And in the show, the horse knew exactly what he was supposed to do.
Every single time we practiced the same act over and over again.
So it didn't throw the horse for any, we didn't throw the horse any curve balls.
Sebastian has the horse that he rode, knew his job like a Saint.
Sebastian knew when he goes into the ring, he's gonna have to do this.
And now Tim did all that with Sebastian, but we did it
over and over and over again.
Right.
What Tim loved, his favorite thing was when the stunt guys would come out.
Now, I used I've trained, I, I dabble in movies.
I can't say like I'm a professional movie stunt person,
but I've, I've been in a few.
And so I would do stunt trainings for our friends in the movie world and I would
teach them how to fall off of horses.
We had the best horses to do it.
And so we would take our horses to our friend's place that had a
big sandpit, and we would let them practice falls in a very controlled
environment so nobody would get hurt.
And Tim loved those days.
He would line up in the line with the stuntman in his wheelchair,
ready to be put on a horse and ready to be thrown off of the horse.
I'm like, Tim, what are you doing, dude?
I'm not gonna throw you off of a horse.
You have a traumatic brain injury.
You know this.
Right.
And he knew, like, he would laugh about it, but he would
just, he would try to be sneaky.
He always had a funny sense of humor about it and trying to sneak
into the line like, I'm not gonna see him for me to throw him up on a
horse, just to throw him off again.
But he loved I think coming from football and coming from entertainment,
he also loved the idea of the show.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And when I asked him if he wanted to be in it, he was the one
that picked out that Viking outfit and put himself in for like a freaking warrior.
And
he just, he, he never took no for an answer.
And I think that's, he, he had so much heart, I I say has like, he's not here.
He's still here with us.
But he has, he has so much incredible heart that nothing was going to
ever hold Tim back in his world.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And I think that's the secret to a lot of what we do just in life
in general, is if we could be more like Tim and not give ourselves limitations.
Yes.
Tim knew what he used to do.
He remembers grabbing the football and running through the, the goal
lines and making the field goals.
And like he remembers that he'll never do that again, but
he could get up on the horse.
We could get him on the horse and we could put a spear in his hand and
teach him how to manipulate a spear.
That was so empowering to him, and he always wanted to try
to take it to the next level.
And
he was his, like, I would push him.
He wanted to be, and he wanted it to be pushed like an athlete.
Mm-hmm.
And if there was no pain, there was no progress.
And I remember like, I would ask him like, you good?
You wanna go again?
And he would say more, whether I was stretching him at the time or trying to
get his arm to move to a certain position where he could learn how to spin the
staff properly or learn how to throw it.
Sometimes he would catch it and it would turn around and knock 'em in the head
because he didn't have, you know, at the time, he didn't have enough muscle
stability to catch it with the momentum.
Eventually he did, but he was just the perfect example of not giving up on
anything and wanting his independence.
And so we tried to give that to him as much as we possibly could.
And everything that he did in the show was done by him.
He picked all of the moves that he showed off.
He basically wrote his own act and that's, we wanted him to, I mean, he had a voice.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe not the same voice you and I have, but he still had one.
Or still has one.
So he wanted to ride to his music.
He wanted to manipulate the spear, or I guess a bo staff really
in a martial arts type fashion.
He wanted to manipulate the staff.
He would spin it around his his head.
He would tuck it underneath his shoulder.
He would strike at certain things with the staff with one
arm while he was on the horse.
And then we'd throw it back and forth to each other while he was on, I was
on the ground and he was on the horse.
Mm-hmm.
Just little warrior moves that you would see a martial artist do, and
that gave him so much purpose.
Mm.
And he thrived on it.
And he never would've gotten that really anywhere else.
No, I agree.
Because
he, you treat people with a brain injury in a certain way.
I mean, you treat anybody with knee injury in a certain way.
I mean, I'm doing physical therapy right now, and it's walking
into the doctor's office again.
You're like, all right, here we go again.
You know?
And I am of sound, mind and body, and I can't imagine people who have to
live in it every single day, 24 7.
It's just Yeah.
Who spend their entire lives walking into an office where, okay,
well here's what we're gonna do.
Let's open the book up.
Here's what the exercises you can do.
This is all you can do.
Let's not think outside the box.
Mm-hmm.
And it, it just becomes very, it feels very hopeless.
Yeah.
I think for a lot of people.
And we never wanted it to feel hopeless for Tim.
And so we were always trying to find the next cool thing.
Oh, one thing we did with him was if he got bored with the spear,
we would give him a shield and I would start throwing things at him.
Those little stress balls or whatever you'd find the little foam objects,
I would find all sorts of random stuff, and I'd just start chucking
it at him and making him deflect it.
And he freaking loved that game.
And it, and it wasn't like an easy game either.
I wouldn't make it easy on him.
Like I would try to actually peg him if I could.
'cause he didn't want me to take it easy.
And and if he could deflect it fast enough, I mean, he'd start laughing
and, and it was again, another, another empower, something so simple becoming
so empowering by just putting a shield in his hands saying, all right, dodge
this and don't let it hit your horse.
I mean, he was like, all right, done.
But that was, that was his story.
And they I remember his mom fighting for him so hard to he was, they wanted
to get him a standing wheelchair so he wouldn't have pressure sores.
That was a thing that they were worried about battling.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Do you know
Celisse Barrett: how much those things cost?
Rupert Isaacson: Hundreds of thousands.
Celisse Barrett: About the cost of a Mercedes?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah,
Celisse Barrett: yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I
Celisse Barrett: think with their, with their credit.
That they got, whatever, I think they paid out $65,000 for this standing wheelchair.
They got one.
They finally got one.
But it wasn't without,
Rupert Isaacson: it is, it is just incredible to me that in countries
as prosperous as our own, I'm sitting here in Europe, you're sitting
there in the USA, we are in the most prosperous nations in the world.
That this is not subsidized by government is just, well, it's a
poor show because we can afford it.
Yeah.
I'm very, very glad to hear that he got one though.
Celisse Barrett: He did.
Rupert Isaacson: And also to feel himself standing must be so empowering too for,
you know, big man and to, to, to regain his, for anyone to stand, obviously,
but to regain his power to some degree.
Celisse Barrett: Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, to be able to walk into a grocery store and to be able to get the
tomato soup off the top shelf instead of having to ask somebody or to be able to
talk, look at somebody eye level Yeah.
And have a conversation with them.
I mean, that's,
Rupert Isaacson: well be total of them that, yeah.
Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: We were there.
The, his mom invited us the day he got it.
They did a little party for him and they presented him with it.
And we played some music.
And I remember dancing with him for the first time.
I was like, we can dance.
Check it out.
How cool is this?
And the news came out and they did this whole thing about it.
And it was really, it was just fantastic.
And to see him just light up like a Christmas tree.
Yeah.
But I mean, you know, that wheelchair didn't cost $65,000 to make
Rupert Isaacson: No, no way.
You
Celisse Barrett: know, it didn't.
No.
And I'm like, why, why $65,000?
That could better somebody's life.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: You're gonna charge them.
I mean, they've already like, I mean, this kid was on his way to
going pro and heading, like colleges were already recruiting him.
And now his mom and his mom, he was the last one, the youngest one.
And now his mom, his senior year of high school has to stop all of
her life because her baby just got hurt and now needs 24 hour care.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Like, that's, that's a hard hit.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: I mean, on everybody, not just Tim, but the whole family.
I mean, yeah, Tim just had his whole life taken away just like that.
And then now mom who thinks her son's about to move out and go to college
and have a family and wife of his own.
Now all that's out the window.
Yeah.
I mean, so yeah, there's, there's definitely something, I don't know.
You just, you just wonder what's, what the future holds for a lot of
these people in these circumstances.
Because we work with lots of programs where a lot of the, we work with a
program called the Dream Program, and it's, they are all adults and a lot of
the time they show up to our facility.
And these adults are 40, 50 years old and their parents are 80.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And they're like, we just, we're trying to create
a network, a village for people.
'cause when we pass away, what are we gonna do?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And you know, and there's, there's just a lot of, a
lot of things that need to change.
I don't have the answers to all of that.
But we try our best to help bridge those gaps and be a, an
oasis in a desert for those that
I guess are kind of running dry.
I don't know.
But Tim, as far as Tim goes, I know he is doing great.
I haven't seen him in a couple years.
But we talked to his mom not too long ago.
She remarried to a great guy and he is got a great support system now.
And she's not having to do it all on her own.
Okay.
That was a big thing for her.
Yeah.
I mean,
Rupert Isaacson: good.
You can
Celisse Barrett: only lift him for so long.
I mean, he's still a full grown man, so,
Rupert Isaacson: well, again, maybe he can go into the horse training side.
It's, it's interesting.
My friend, henrik Bergoff and his wife, giddy Bergoff, who run the amazing
Horse Boy place at Green Care Farm in central Germany and their son Julian,
who's equally amazing in a wheelchair.
We've taken him fox hunting.
Celisse Barrett: Really?
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Awesome.
Three years now.
Okay.
Spina bifida, big western south, and yes, of course we're adapting it and
working with the hunt to choreograph it, you know, somewhat, but he's, he's
crossing country and he's also trained.
He can, he can train my horses in pf in his wheelchair.
Wow.
Celisse Barrett: That's fabulous.
And I
Rupert Isaacson: think more and more, that's kind of where we
need to go as people get adult, you know, to say, well come into
the program and be a team member.
No longer be a service user.
Right.
Be a service provider.
You've reached that point Now here's a question before we move to, because
we're approaching the two hour mark.
I just want to ask you a bit, you know, to, to do what you do is predicated
to some degree on people being able to follow instruction, follow top down
instruction with that kind of cognition.
What do you do when you have, like, when Rowan was very small, he,
there's no way he could have followed any kind of top down and strapping.
What do you do in those cases?
Go back to the back riding and such?
Celisse Barrett: What we do in those cases is we basically just follow their lead.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And what
Celisse Barrett: they enjoy and what they wanna do.
If all they enjoy doing is getting on the horse and maybe just trotting
around in the woods, and if I back ride with them and they like that sensation,
then we just kind of stop there.
If that's where we're getting progress, then we'll go to
that point and then we mm-hmm.
I don't push it further than what they're Right.
You're not a
Rupert Isaacson: wedded to the trick thing.
Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
No, we do lots of things.
We have a sensory, not right now, at our new place, but we had a sensory trail in
our woods where we would take them out and we would draw on the trees with chalk.
You would play hide and seek with the hor on, on the horses or off the horses.
It really just depended on what the student wanted.
One little girl that we had, she loves, this is all
Rupert Isaacson: dear to my horse boy heart to hear this.
Yeah.
Yep.
She loves
Celisse Barrett: sign language.
She, she understood words, but she would not speak on her own.
But once I taught her some sign language then she, she jumped on board with that.
And every time, like I, we had this little snail statue on our
trail and every time we had passed the snail, she would sign snail
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Or I would
Celisse Barrett: say right or left and give her the sign for it.
And then she would tell me which way she'd wanna go with her hands
instead of having to verbalize it.
And so.
We, whatever they, whatever they wanted to play.
We had this game of with foam noodles and one, these two twins that were
autistic, they would come out and we would play the telescope game and we
put the foam noodles up to our eyeballs, like telescopes, and we would try to
find mom and dad through the telescope.
And that was, that was what we did.
And then we'd find them, we'd go and we'd try to run mom and dad over.
They want, they thought that was the funniest thing, was
to run them over on the horse.
So, but we did so whatever, whatever just made them want to be there.
That's what we did with them.
We tried to make it a complete yes.
Environment.
We tried to not make it an environment of nos.
Mm-hmm.
Because they get told that enough.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And yeah, I think for people who are listening watches too, one really
has to take this seriously, this yes.
Environment.
Because when you're dealing with someone with autom, so many people say
the word autism or work with autism, don't even know what the word means.
The word is the Greek word for, for the self auto, like automatic moves by itself.
Autom, selfism.
So locked within the self.
The difficulty is the relationship with the exterior world.
So there's not a massive desire like there is between.
So you or I who have more or less the neurotypical brain.
We are compulsive communicators.
That's our species.
This is.
These are people within our species who don't feel
necessarily that same compulsion.
So if somebody like Rowan, when he, my son, when he was very small to speak
or communicate directly, it was as difficult as it for me to learn Cantonese.
You know, something.
So if you then, while I'm trying to learn Cantonese, say no, so stop you
know, well, I'm not gonna be very motivated to keep going 'cause it's
a schlep, it's a massive effort.
You know, why would I continue to make this effort?
So, yeah.
One of the things I really appreciate about what you do is
it is this environment of yes.
And you absolutely set the environment up so you don't have all the dangerous
stuff that you would have to say no to.
So, and then it's, it's, it's such a, it's such a ridiculous irony
that someone might sort of, from the traditional path thing might look at
you and say, oh, that's dangerous.
Where in fact you take such care of the safety to a level that's in the
stratosphere compared to what's going on at the average, you know, place
and the level of professionalism.
And yet there you are having to justify it.
But you create the absolute, you know, your work is masterful, frankly.
It's masterful.
Celisse Barrett: Well, thank you.
I,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I take my hat off.
You are one of my heroes.
You and Jason, Beth and Brooke, and Marley.
And I still to this day, scratch my head.
And when I watch you kind of create this quantum world where what should
not be able to happen happens.
You know, at Horse Boy we obviously train people to do what we do.
There's horse boy method, there's movement method, there's TAing.
We have these different programs to, to train people to do
what you do is very difficult.
Would you, do you have the desire to sort of expand and train people in what
you do and sort of create a methodology?
Or are you content rather to be a, sort of a flagship gold standard
of showing what's possible?
Because it takes, you know, so much spec specific expertise
to deliver what you deliver.
And then in the, which case, where do you want it to go and how can we help?
Celisse Barrett: I would love to
be able to bring this to other facilities.
I think there is such a need for it.
And once you could have a handful of instructors that really understood how
structured it was or how structured it is.
Mm.
They would not see, they wouldn't see the chaos, but they would
see the, I mean, even with chaos, the name Equestrian Chaos, there
is, there's an order to chaos.
There's an order to the cosmos and we don't under, just because
you don't understand it doesn't mean that it's not there.
That it doesn't exist.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Celisse Barrett: And so even though it says Equestrian Chaos is the name, and
people go, oh my gosh, what is that?
It's kind of a play on words because it really, yes, horses can be
absolutely chaotic in a second, but
Rupert Isaacson: there's also not doing kinds of things that you do.
No, absolutely.
But, you know, theatrically, and I think in terms of the minds of the service
users, the clients who are coming to you, this idea that you're giving them a
part of the show, equestrian chaos with the, the excitement, the passion, the
dreamlike setting free that, that, okay.
It's actually incredibly structured and, and a detail like all, all performances
are as you started with your flute and, you know, but I think to call it that
name is both incredibly brave because you caught the disapproval of the disapproves.
And at the same time it means that anyone who's like overly therapized being told
what to do every day, they just, that name alone is gonna make you think, Ooh,
that might be an experience worth having.
I think I wanna go check out those people.
So do you feel, do you feel it's transferrable?
Do you feel, you, are you working on a methodology, for example, to train people?
Could I get trained?
Celisse Barrett: Absolutely.
110%.
And I think it, it has to start with the instructors first.
I can teach, I mean, I can teach this to kids all day long, but until the
instructors believe that they can even do it, the buck stops right there and it
comes with, but you've got to train 'em
Rupert Isaacson: how to produce the horse that can do it too, right?
Sure,
Celisse Barrett: yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
But you can start at a very basic level.
I mean, you don't have to train the horse to be able to accept
double vaults in a tail drag.
Yeah.
Or under the belly.
Or under the neck.
I mean, you don't have to go into that deep of, of, of, of training with therapy.
But you a horse, yours,
Rupert Isaacson: horse, you could absolutely trust even if you're
doing it static or to walk.
Celisse Barrett: Sure.
Yes.
Yeah.
Even if you had a barrel, I mean, you could do it on a, on, on a barrel.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, you could do it on a barrel.
That is so true.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, on a vaulting barrel.
Celisse Barrett: Yeah.
Until you finesse your, until you finesse it yourself.
But yes, we actually have a program that we started to write years ago and
it's still sitting in my Google Drive folder that we had a step-by-step thing.
You've got no time to develop it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Celisse Barrett: yeah.
We had names for every type of Mount dismount that our, and our students,
we followed them, whatever, however they got on the horse, we put a name
for it, and that's what we called it.
And they actually helped us write the program without even knowing it.
And and I, I've kind of struggled on, I try, I did a couple lectures on
this program a couple years ago and.
When you say circus, it almost puts a halt on people that are older or older
trainers that want to maybe learn it because they're like circus trick riding.
Whoa.
That's, that's, I, I can't do that.
Yeah.
And immediately there's an instant mental block and I'm like, no, that's,
that's not what I'm, no, you don't have to be a circus performer to do
what I'm trying to share with you guys.
Like, and you don't have to have a circus horse to do this.
You just have to have an open mind.
That is it.
Period.
And so now I've toyed around with changing it to maybe let's calling it
a performing arts therapeutic program.
I was gonna say,
Rupert Isaacson: as soon as you say like, circus arts or something, or as
you say performance, it changes, it changes the perception, doesn't it?
Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Correct.
And I think a performing arts program would be more would be more accepting than
saying circus, even though it's, well, you
Rupert Isaacson: know, there's it, this is a fortuitous bit of timing
because I'm currently in conversation with a, an amazing theater group in
London called Chicken Shed Who, 'cause it started in a chicken shed and it's
now really this big, big theater.
Yeah, yeah.
They, they, they were given like a shed, which had been a chicken shed.
So it had the feathers, you know, on somebody's, you know, farm.
And that's where they began.
And it's a special needs theater group.
They're at the point now where they actually run degree programs in.
The performing arts for special needs and through special needs through
London, through universities, and I think it's Middlesex University
and they've kind of grown, grown, grown, grown, grown like this.
And we are you remember we had talked ages ago and we still should be talking
about, but adapting the horse boy for a, a show with equestrian chaos
and we need to pick this up again.
And we are doing the same thing with them.
And because they're not riders, they're not.
And a lot of the performers are also special needs.
So I wanted them to take the story and see what they do with it.
And also have Roan be, you know, obviously a voice in this and a producer
and a narrator and you know, a writer.
But these people are going to need, when, when you said vaulting barrels
and just immediately thought, oh yes.
In the show, in a theater in London, you could have people riding and trick
riding on barrels that are moving to some degree and doing that thing.
And we would need someone who knows how to teach and we would need a consultant.
And I think that person might be Sice Barrett.
Celisse Barrett: Oh, I know about that.
What do you think?
I know her.
Yeah.
Do you know her?
That sounds great.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Celisse Barrett: We've done that.
So when we teach, we also teach adaptive archery since the archery has taken off.
And the one thing we do is we put, we actually strap barrels
to a trailer, a flatbed trailer.
And when they're learning how to load the arrow in motion before putting
on the horse and wasting the horse's energy and theirs we hook it up to
our car and we drive around the arena and it's like a, that's a good idea.
Can line up like a dang rollercoaster ride.
They're like me next, me next.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
I would do it.
Celisse Barrett: I, oh, I totally do.
I love it when we hook up the barrels.
But yeah, we practice loading in motion that way.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: And yeah, put put a, you could put a vaulting barrel easy
on some wheels and make it a whole theatrical thing and have people pull
it through the stage and while doing different tricks and things on the horse.
Oh yeah.
You could, you could totally do that.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
That's, so I think, I think we need to meet in London and workshop this.
Celisse Barrett: Perfect.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Yes.
You
Rupert Isaacson: willing to come?
Celisse Barrett: Let's do it when you wanna do it.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
It'll be this coming year and if you can come up with your sort
of level one entry training.
Okay.
For sort of points.
I will, I will take it.
You know, and I think most of our re most of our viewers and listeners would too.
So please.
So we're all like, okay, when are we all gonna do our equestrian chaos workshop?
And you now have a new facility.
I know you guys travel, of course, a lot with the show, but you, you have
a new facility in Mississippi, sort of close to New Orleans, um right.
It's sort of not far over the state line.
We're
Celisse Barrett: about two hours from New Orleans.
Right.
We're 20, yeah.
24 miles from the mobile state line.
We're right on the state line.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So you are, you are.
It's, it's, you know, yeah.
It's, it's doable.
So I think a lot of people would also love to come out and check out your program.
How do we support you?
How do people donate to you?
How do people come to you to be working students?
Just give us all the coordinates.
Celisse Barrett: So right now our website is equestrian chaos.com.
There is a my email directly on there, if someone wants to contact
me about donating something specific.
We are literally rebuilding from the ground up.
When we moved to this new facility, the facility was, we weren't
expecting to have to move so quickly.
We were renting the other facility we were at for 14 years and we had three
months to move everything to find a place to close on it, move the barn.
So we are currently getting.
Electricity run to the back 14 acres that we have that has no
electric or water right now that's actually happening as we speak.
And the next step will be to build out our arena the way we need to actually
have it a professional arena that we need.
We would
Rupert Isaacson: love to have a an aerial support system.
Celisse Barrett: Oh my gosh, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: That travels with people.
What does that cost to put in?
Celisse Barrett: That would be a, that's a million dollar question.
I don't know, to be perfectly honest.
I know it's gonna cost, I would, I mean, I would have to guess my first thought
is anywhere between 25 to $50,000 to put something like that in so much.
So that's very doable.
It may not, it, I, I mean, nowadays I feel like it's definitely doable.
I've never actually researched it further than just looking
at how it is set up, cost up.
Oh, that would be great to do if we could do that.
And if you can do that,
Rupert Isaacson: we'll do a, we'll do a GoFundMe through Horse Boy to help
you raise money for that, because
Celisse Barrett: that would be phenomenal.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I, I, I can't, there's just no argument that that's
gonna massively improve quality of life.
And if you, and if you are also training people, I think, in the
circus arts and to be prac equine practitioners or therapeutic
practitioners within this sphere.
They're gonna need to also go through a certain amount of training
that yes, these types of harnesses would be really useful for.
So we would get behind that.
And
Celisse Barrett: there's so many people that could benefit from it.
I mean, not just from the prac, I mean, even the practitioners,
nobody wants to fall and get hurt.
I understand that.
110%.
I'm on that team 110%.
And I don't want anyone falling and getting hurt if they don't have to.
And the rehab benefits, like, yeah, I taught this woman into her
seventies and there are so many times
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Where I
Celisse Barrett: wish I just had a har, a safety harness for
her because her anxiety Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I could totally see this with people who've had suffer
strokes, people who aren't so mobile.
Yes.
I mean, gosh.
Celisse Barrett: And they could gain it back without having any
fear and without any risk of falls.
Oh, I mean, that, that would be you, you'd change the whole game.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it would.
So yeah, I, that's my So what K would do it?
Well, let's, let's say what?
Let's get that money.
Yeah.
And by the way, listeners and viewers they are a nonprofit.
Correct?
You are a nonprofit.
Yes, we're a nonprofit.
Yes.
So you, you can donate tax deductible and you should give Sise money now.
Write to her, go to her website, equestrian chaos.com.
Do you have a donate button on there?
Yes.
Do you have We do.
Okay on the website.
Please go to equestrian chaos.com
and hit the donate button and send.
Money so that they can do more.
Please.
I'm asking you as Rupert Auntie Rupert is, you know, making this request.
Auntie Rupert.
All right.
Listen Sise, this has been as always a delight.
It's always a delight to talk to you and to Jason, and to Brooke and to Mar.
Let's talk further about these projects.
Yes.
And I'd like you to come back on the show, Okay.
You know, in a little while and tell us, you know, how you're growing.
'cause I, I think we all kind of want more equestrian chaos in our lives.
Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: Everyone needs equestrian chaos in their lives.
Rupert Isaacson: Everyone needs, whether it's my
Celisse Barrett: chaos or their own, but they all need it.
It's good for 'em.
Rupert Isaacson: I was building cross country jumps today on the
mountain behind our farm and going around them and enjoying my equest.
And whether it's happening at the level that Tim was doing it or at
the kind of extreme level that Rocky was doing it, you know what, what
occurred to me about what Tim and Rocky were doing in your stories is I know
many, many, many able bodied writers, you've never done anything like that.
Celisse Barrett: That was really the inspiration behind
the whole show when I wrote it.
And it really wasn't.
It was for them.
But it wasn't for them, it was for the audience.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Because I,
Celisse Barrett: I got tired of hearing, oh, I can't do this, or
I'm too old, or, oh, I, there's no way I could ever do that.
And all of a sudden you just hear immediate defeat out of people's mouths.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: And we're human, like humans are amazing
Rupert Isaacson: creature.
Yeah.
With the most adaptable species.
Celisse Barrett: We adapt, we study, we can, we can imitate, we can, I mean, yeah,
if you could put all of our abilities into one human, I mean, if you could believe
that, you could do, I mean, there's people that are blind that echo locate.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Celisse Barrett: So we have the ability to be our own superheroes,
but you have to believe that it has to come from somewhere first.
And it ha it starts with believing.
And so the whole idea behind equestrian chaos was to take our audience on
this emotional rollercoaster of all these different wow factors
from extreme stunts to extreme impossibilities becoming possibilities.
Like watching people like Tim and Rock and Sarah in the show who, I mean Sarah, she
only wanted to be looked at as an equal.
She's now, and she wrote that poem and she wrote Romeo in the show.
And she was the one that actually did pretty, she did really well with
the Mounted archery during COVID.
But she's a pro, she's now a professor at a university.
And the professor who writes Grant, she helps me write grants.
She's a brilliant brain.
And I mean, I call her to re to read some of my grants and
she'll, she'll refine them.
So she really
Rupert Isaacson: has, she really has become a team member.
Celisse Barrett: Oh yeah.
She's phenomenal.
And then now she calls me because she called me a couple weeks ago
wanting to know how to adapt her class because she had a few people
with special needs in her class.
And she's like, all right, I need your advice.
I'm like, whoa.
The doctor's coming to me for advice because she's working on her
doctorate now, and I've just been so humbled by And what was her special
Rupert Isaacson: need?
Celisse Barrett: She has cerebral palsy.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: Or has cerebral palsy.
And her big thing was in the show, we would dismount her
in front of the audience.
She would come out riding on the horse, and then she would dismount off of
Romeo and we would bring her, her canes.
And nobody knew that she couldn't walk.
That's right.
And that was, that was her statement.
She asked to do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember her phone?
Celisse Barrett: I remember parts of it.
It's actually on our I believe it's on our website or on our YouTube video, but it
Rupert Isaacson: What is the part that springs to mind the fragment that
Celisse Barrett: the last line.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Celisse Barrett: In flight.
She is free
Rupert Isaacson: in flight.
Cheers.
Free.
Celisse Barrett: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: In flight.
Cheers.
Free.
Celisse Barrett: That's the very last line of her poem.
Rupert Isaacson: If I could think of anything that epitomizes you
and what you do, it's in flight.
She is free and by extension, freeing everybody else who
comes into contact with you.
You know, I think that's the perfect note to end on.
Celisse Barrett: I agree.
Rupert Isaacson: Sise, it's been an honor.
Thank you so much.
Celisse Barrett: Likewise.
Rupert Isaacson: And let's keep talking.
Celisse Barrett: Sounds good.
Talk about London.
I'm looking forward to it.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, all right, my friend.
Celisse Barrett: All right.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk soon.
Till next time.
All right.
Love to work.
Bye-Bye.
Celisse Barrett: Bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
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