[00:00:00] ‌ --- [00:00:00] Phil: You were diagnosed with ADHD later on in life and you found a way to reframe it and help you thrive in your MarTech role at Expedia. [00:00:08] Angela: I think I've been drawn a lot to marketing or operations or places that can feel like chaos, it's like one plus one can equal two sometimes, but occasionally it's these eight other options. [00:00:19] because it kept my brain busy, it's definitely been a little bit of a reframe and a rewiring, Like I can connect dots pretty quickly. [00:00:26] super useful in a operation issue that has a long chain of events that happen. [00:00:33] Phil: this whole shift helped you achieve, a stronger bridge between execution and vision, [00:00:38] Angela: execution is about persuading people it's convincing a whole bunch of people. I don't work for you to say, please, can you do this thing [00:00:45] Phil: Sh. [00:00:45] Angela: because it's gonna make my life easier. That itself, deserves a lot more credit than the strategy. [00:00:51] ​ [00:01:18] In This Episode --- [00:01:18] Phil: What's up everyone? Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Angela Vega, director of Capabilities and Operations at Expedia Group. In this episode, we explore Angela's A DHD MarTech Stack and why A DHD helps marketers build better systems. She explains how to build a bridge between strategy and execution, and how to use discernment to protect your energy. [00:01:39] All that and a bunch more stuff after a quick word from two of our awesome partners. [00:01:43] ​ [00:03:39] Phil: Angela, thank you so much for your time today. I really excited to chat. [00:03:42] Angela: Yeah, thanks. It's actually nice to talk about MarTech here other than, uh, slacks at 10:00 PM so this is definitely preferable. [00:03:52] Phil: I feel that from my in-house journey for sure. Um, the slack, uh, late night threads, especially in like remote [00:04:00] teams, you can't really control like when someone is gonna be responding or not. I'm a big fan of using that like schedule send button. When you're sending a DM to someone that you know isn't on right now and you're probably having dinner and you don't wanna like annoy them, [00:04:14] Angela: No, I do that. Uh, I love using, like, actually looking like I'm already up in the morning, so I schedule it for like 5:00 AM my time and you know, it's like nine or 10 there's, and I'm like, wow, she's already up. But you know, you have to use it strategically. But yes, I usually end up getting on Slack a lot later than necessary due to working, um, with the global team. [00:04:33] So it can be rough. [00:04:34] Phil: Yeah, pro tip making people think that you, uh, start work a lot [00:04:39] Angela: schedule everything. [00:04:42] Phil: Yeah, no, I'm super pumped to chat today 'cause I feel like, you know, a lot of us in marketing and operations are feeling this constant pressure of productivity, getting stuff out the door, and with that comes this undercurrent of anxiety. [00:04:55] 1. Building an ADHD Techstack --- [00:04:55] Phil: You were diagnosed with ADHD later on in life and you found a way [00:05:00] to reframe it and help you thrive in your MarTech role at Expedia. And you found a way to blend ADHD and your MarTech career. Uh, talk to us about this, ADHD tech stack that you've put together. [00:05:12] Angela: Yeah, no, it was, um, it was something I started to think a lot more about, especially as the onslaught of like AI tools started to explode and I got a really deep interest in, you know, using a lot of them for my own personal use. But then once I started realizing how much more I was getting done by kind of like leveraging some of these tools to help support me on my way, I was like this, I dunno, there's, there's something here for the person who's like, you know. [00:05:47] Working, managing a household with the kids, trying to have really, uh, good conversations, you know, across the board in their industry and things of that sort. And so what I started thinking on and, [00:06:00] and, and while I'm making it general right now, there is an aspect of this that I would like to go a little bit more towards women because there's so much of that where I believe that they need that sort of, um, support and space. [00:06:10] But this one was meant to kind of be a little bit more open to, you know, the general sort of public. But essentially the way I think about it is something that executive functioning is one of the most critical aspects that you know, most. You know, people struggle with who, uh, have ADHD. Um, and that executive functioning is like when you have too much information or you don't know exactly where to start, or being able to take that sort of first action with things can be, can be really, really challenging. [00:06:39] And that was something that I struggled with too. I had so many coping mechanisms, you know, with lists, sticky notes, um, the reminders. I'm one of those people that has like 18 alarms, like on my phone to remind me for certain things. Like all those sorts of things are great tools, but technology's evolved. [00:06:55] There's better tools now. We should use them and they should be in a way that isn't about like, [00:07:00] figuring out how to make things faster, you know, at work or being able to answer that one question that Google would've done totally fine with. But your grandmother doesn't know how to use it yet. Like we. We should use these in a way that actually help create a world and environment for peoples whose brains did not match the environment that we had previously, which is people who are trying to manage several different tasks who don't know how to break sometimes things down into things who don't understand what the next step, who step away from a thing. [00:07:29] When they come back to it, they're like, what was I doing? What, what was this thing that I was trying to accomplish here? And so what I basically am starting to build outside of, you know, I have, you know, the general framework around it, which is the idea of like offload shape, prototype loop, and anchor. [00:07:47] All these are attached to like very typical things that, you know, I have personally struggled with, at least my version of how ADHD shows up. But the first part is really around the offload. It's just I talk out loud all the [00:08:00] time. Like when I'm alone shower, I, I'm sure a ton of people sort of do it, but usually it's because I'm trying to figure out how to say a thing and auditory processing helps me. [00:08:09] But instead of just doing that into the abyss or into, you know, behind my toddlers, whatever Moana song, and just saying it to myself, I, I say it into, you know, an ai, whether it's Whisper or whether it's GPT or whether it's one of the gyms from Gemini that I crafted to be specific to my needs on saying, this one is specific to, um, the things I need to get done. [00:08:34] This one is about the list. I need to send my boss about the things that I'm trying to action on, which then leads to shape because at that point. Its ability to be able to create a framework. You can design it or something, you know, or you can prompt it in a way that allows you to give it the right context and things. [00:08:51] Prototyping is more around the idea that like we get so caught up in our, like the ability to do a thing. People look like, yeah, I'm really into this thing now. And then [00:09:00] like two weeks later you're like, I'm not into this thing anymore, because you can't get to the result that you have in your brain about what that dopamine hit is going to be. [00:09:07] Right? And so now the ability, when someone has an idea of saying like, look, I wanna create an app for a thing like this. This isn't like, you know, two months of trying to figure this out. This is like two minutes of you writing some stuff. Into rept, into lovable, into pick whatever sort of AI app. And then you get to that sort of point. [00:09:27] And then loop is more about body doubling, right? It's the idea of being able to have your ideas and have a conversation with it and not feeling judged, right? Because a lot of the times when we're saying things out loud, I repeat myself all the time with my husband. He's like, we talked about this yesterday. [00:09:39] And I'm like, I know I'm still thinking about it and I still need to talk through it. Now, I don't have to necessarily bother 'em with all the things around it, but you can loop with that. And it's in a judgment free. Now there's some aspect of like AI that, right? Like they're all about, like, they're not gonna say like, girl, no, don't, don't do that. [00:09:57] They're not gonna tell you no. Um, [00:10:00] but if it's just something that you need to chew on and ruminate and then structure, that's a good thing. And then anchoring is more about the struggle of being able to come back to ideas. That's where AI can allow you to kind of like prompt to say like, where did I leave off? [00:10:16] What was, what was this thing that I was sort of doing? And there's so many other things with AI workflows and you know, orchestration and there's so many great apps that are coming out. But each of these tech stacks, which you need can be very, very different in customizable to you as a person. And that's the whole point is like we shouldn't have to accept this one sort of tool, sticky notes or this, it can be so much more robust than that. [00:10:39] But not only that, it can be so personalized to each individual and the things that they have in their life. And that's what I wanna enable anybody else with, struggling with some level of executive function that they can build their own tech stack and they don't need my experience or any anybody else's like technical expertise to do that. [00:10:59] Phil: Hmm. [00:11:00] Super cool. Yeah. We'll, we'll put up the, the actual diagram for, for folks that are watching this, uh, on YouTube. Uh, I think it's a really cool way to, to think about it. So maybe, yeah, [00:11:11] 1.2 Why ADHD Shapes Better Decision-Making in Marketing Operations --- [00:11:16] Phil: maybe take us back to like that first initial diagnosis, ~Like a lot of us in marketing and, and operations or feeling this constant pressure of productivity and this undercurrent of anxiety comes with a lot of that pressure.~ [00:11:16] ~Um, but, and everyone takes the step to actually get diagnosed. Uh,~ I know for you that moment kinda reframed everything about how you lead at work, but also at home as a parent. So take us back to that moment, like what was happening in your life and career, how did it change how you kinda see yourself as a MarTech leader? [00:11:30] ~Um, the slack, uh, late night threads, especially in like remote teams, you can't really control like when someone is gonna be responding or not. I'm a big fan of using that like schedule send button. When you're sending a DM to someone that you know isn't on right now and you're probably having dinner and you don't wanna like annoy them,~ [00:11:30] Angela: ~No, I do that. Uh, I love using, like, actually looking like I'm already up in the morning, so I schedule it for like 5:00 AM my time and you know, it's like nine or 10 there's, and I'm like, wow, she's already up. But you know, you have to use it strategically. But yes, I usually end up getting on Slack a lot later than necessary due to working, um, with the global team.~ [00:11:30] ~So it can be rough.~ [00:11:30] Phil: ~Yeah, pro tip making people think that you, uh, start~ [00:11:30] ~work a lot ~ [00:11:30] Angela: ~schedule everything.~ [00:11:30] Phil: ~Yeah, no, I'm super pumped to chat today 'cause I feel like, you know, a lot of us in marketing and operations are feeling this constant pressure of productivity, getting stuff out the door, and with that comes this undercurrent of anxiety.~ [00:11:30] ~Everyone deals with anxiety, but not everyone takes the step to actually get diagnosed about the anxiety that they feel sometimes and some of the other issues they're dealing with. I know for you that moment reframed everything and how you kinda lead at work, but also how it impacts your home life. So maybe take us back to that moment where you know, what was happening in your life, your career, how did it change how you saw yourself as a MarTech leader?~ [00:11:30] Angela: Yeah. No, I, I think it's so interesting because for, for people who do decide to get diagnosed with any aspect of depression, anxiety, neurodivergence, um. It's one of those things that I think some people feel like this instant relief, you know, like, oh, this thing, I knew it was there. Um, for others it's like, yeah, no, that, that makes sense. [00:11:52] It just feels so clear. Um, and I know for me, you know, when you kind of like look at photos like, you know, from [00:12:00] 10 years ago and, you know, 10 years ago you're complaining, I didn't like this, this wasn't fun. Or I wish I would've worn my hair like that. But now you kind of look at 'em and you're like, how fun was that? [00:12:09] Um, there's a part of me that now that I've been able to get, you know, an understanding, a better understanding of myself, but more information about, you know, not who I am, but how aspects of my brain work that has allowed me to look in the past and be a little bit more gracious with those experiences that I've had and kind of reframe them, almost relive 'em and say, oh no, that was, that was just a way in which I was processing it. [00:12:35] Then like more in the present, it, it is more like a, you know, a pair of glasses. I know a lot of people kind of compare that sort of thing. You just get a little bit more focus, a little bit more clarity. Um, so for me, you know, the, the path of diagnosis to shorten the story just a little bit is after I had my, my first son, um, there was a lot of things going on [00:13:00] that, you know, the toolkit that I had, you know, therapy or coping mechanisms just really weren't working anymore. [00:13:07] So I went to my OB and, um, was able to get, you know, my, my first medication around anxiety, but it wasn't necessarily properly diagnosed, it was just. It was an outcome of a experience that I had, that a lot of people have, a lot of birthing people have that can be super traumatic. And, and that's what I needed at that time. [00:13:27] And then shortly after, about a year later, we decided, let's, let's go ahead and, you know, take, take the next step and add another human being to our lives. And so, um, we did our second transfer. Uh, both of my children were, you know, through IVF. And so after about a year struggling with that, that also kind of compounded in some of the aspects of anxiety. [00:13:48] But for that second sort of transfer, at that point in my life. Specifically we had my, my father-in-law, um, became very, very sick. And I've known the man since I was [00:14:00] 19. And, um, he unfortunately then passed away about a month later. I was pregnant with my, you know, second child. And unfortunately, the complexity of both being like sick and then also having anxiety, the medications I were taking, uh, caused something called serotonin syndrome. [00:14:19] So I had to choose between my medications, which for those of you don't know, it's like, do you wanna throw up or do you wanna feel anxious? And to be perfectly honest, I would prefer to feel anxious because throwing up several times a day is just not fun for [00:14:31] Phil: Yeah. [00:14:33] Angela: Um, and then we, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on at work. [00:14:37] I, it wasn't really an environment at that time that was conducive to I think a person who was. I don't wanna say struggling, but definitely had complexities in their life that really weren't making room for the fact that as a leader and as someone who needed to show up at their sort of best, that it just didn't really exist at that [00:14:58] time. [00:15:00] Um, and so through that I was lucky, you know, got a great maternity leave, came back, um, and, you know, my role again be, begin, began to shift. But, you know, within about a, a year after that, I was like, well, I need to, I need to probably actually go get a proper diagnosis. And so I went to a psychologist and with that, um, started explaining like all my myself, like, oh, you know, uh, I have a lot of thoughts in my head. [00:15:25] It's sometimes super hard to, you know, fall asleep. I think of the 20 things that might go wrong, here's the a hundred hobbies that I have. You know, my, I already have 15 water cups right next to me as we speak. Like, you know, and those weren't like the, the actual things that I explained to the therapist, but it was things that she started kind of, you know, asking. [00:15:44] And then she says, Hey, you might, um, this is also kind of showing up as, you know, ADHD. And at that point, as typical people would do, at least what I was taught, I was like, no. I can sit still. I mean, I fidget, but I can sit still. They're like, yeah. So [00:16:00] that is a, what was used in the 1990s, the description of all this. [00:16:05] So much of this has changed, and the way that, you know, it shows up in women can definitely be more, you know, in, in their head. Um, and then there's so many other factors associated with what society expects of girls or women that, you know, sitting still is expected. Getting good grades is expected. While those same sorts of things aren't necessarily, you know, put on, you know, little boys. [00:16:27] And that's not right nor fair, but it is a bias that, you know, between, you know, the social expectations of people as well as what the data and the doctors were trained on, that it wasn't very common that, you know, you would look at a, at a little girl who was thinking about a billion things in her head while they were trying to teach a math problem. [00:16:48] And then. Asking her a question, but she knows she has to come with the answer because if she doesn't, she's a failure. Right? There's, there's all these narratives that lead up, but the point being is, you know, the [00:17:00] psychologist was like, you most likely have this, would you like some medication? I was like, eh, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna go take a six hour test that's going to make me like, just wanna fall asleep afterwards. [00:17:10] That was all about, you know, assessing that sort of experience. Um, and so with that, I came out, uh, peer reviewed by, you know, two or three other psychologists because that was important to me personally, to make sure that this wasn't something that I was making up, right. Because that's the narrative that I had in my head. [00:17:27] It's just a thing I have there, you know? And, um, I, you know, also had a really good friend who had made a suggestion to go to this sort of place, you know, where they did all this sort of testing and it came out that it was, you know, ADHD combined type, um, you know, hyperactive, inactive, and then of course, you know, anxiety. [00:17:45] And so now I'm able to kind of. Like, think about all of the, um, what I think I considered quirks for a super long time and think about them a little bit, you know, differently now, and, and how that shows up at [00:18:00] work, like I said, is I think I've been drawn a lot to marketing or operations or places that can feel like chaos, that aren't this like numerical mathematical situation that, you know, one plus one equals two, but it's like one plus one can equal two sometimes, but occasionally it's these eight other options. [00:18:18] Um, because it kept my brain busy, it, it made me feel like I could do, you know, a hundred different things. And, [00:18:23] Phil: Hmm. [00:18:24] Angela: and so it's definitely been a little bit of a reframe and a rewiring, um, and giving myself a little bit more grace, you know. [00:18:34] Phil: I, I appreciate you sharing that. Um, I, I, I look back on your, on your answer there and like a couple of things jump out. Obviously ton of stuff going on in your life and your expectation to still kinda show up at work. And I know a lot of folks listening are probably just like, you have to figure out a way to not let it affect your work. [00:18:54] Like people still expect you to perform and be productive and it's so easier said [00:19:00] than done when you like close a laptop and then you're dealing with these like 17 different things that are going on in your life. But [00:19:06] 1.3 How to Turn ADHD Patterns Into Martech Leadership Strengths --- [00:19:06] Phil: when you mentioned like you treated your quirks as flaws before the diagnosis, like what were some of those quirks? [00:19:14] Like, take us back and like how do you think they affected the way that you showed up to your MarTech job? [00:19:20] Angela: Yeah, no, it's a great question. Um, and some of these things, these, like I said, these corks still sort of exist in behaviors and, and to your point, it's really about how I'm like thinking about them more neutrally. Like, it's just about using a tool set and all tools are neutral until you decide what's the best way to really apply them. [00:19:38] Right. So some of the things that I know I do and I still do today, and I will probably continue to do for the rest of my life, is, um, I can jump from like one topic to another pretty quickly because in my mind I've already created the, like five connections and then I have to go back and talk. And that works like sometimes pretty well at a leadership level [00:20:00] that you can like, make a statement and then get to hear and then some people can kind of follow you. [00:20:04] Um, it does not work when you're in a very tactical and you need to explain things and understand how you, how you got there. Um, and so I've learned to kind of break things into smaller steps, but it is a, a really good skillset that if you have a short period of time to where you need to explain something, your ability to find that connection from dot 0.1 to five, what's the quickest way to get there? [00:20:31] Um, I also talk a lot. I interrupt. Um, I've had to work very, very hard on that. I think, again, there's also an aspect of this that's like, I've been in rooms that have been primarily men, and if I don't interrupt then I don't get to say anything. But then if it becomes a habit, because if I don't, sometimes if I don't say something, it's gone. [00:20:51] The thought is gone. [00:20:52] Phil: Yeah. Yeah. [00:20:53] Angela: Um, so I've had to work on like writing some stuff down, but it, it also makes sense that as a leader, I gotta make sure I give people the [00:21:00] space that they need to explain what they have and say like, they need to be heard more than I need to say something and that thing that I need to say. [00:21:07] Is there a different way to be able to introduce in the conversation that doesn't require me to say like, stop, like, you know, and so that's something, um, I'm sure a lot of people do this, but I overread everyone's expressions. You know, you know when you're like that person, like at the gym and someone starts like looking and they're saying, oh my God, they're looking at me because I have something like, like all eyes are on you. [00:21:29] They're not, like, most people really do not notice or do not care, right. Um, but at work, especially like during Zoom, like you get hyperfocused or like, Ooh, they made a face [00:21:40] Phil: Mm-hmm. [00:21:40] Angela: that. Why did they make that face? Um, and so many other things. And, and with that, the, the downside of that is that you overread into everything. [00:21:50] You think everyone's statement, you read it how your mindset, when you get a Slack message and someone says like, Hey, you know, how are you doing? If you're in a really, really bad mood or you have an [00:22:00] idea in your head, you're gonna read it. Like, what do you mean, how am I doing? Like, we have all this context that gets built up and specifically as an outcome for first some, I won't say that. [00:22:10] All right. ADHD is not an anxiety, they're not a monolith. But the idea of what it shows up for me is I've been a person who always has to constantly say like, are we okay? Like, are you mad at me? Um, it has annoyed my husband for the last 13 years of marriage, but he's still, he's still here. Um, but I've had to kind of like work through that on realizing like regardless of whether or not that phase was directed at me, doesn't matter. [00:22:33] Probably not. Um, and I think one of the more positive sides is quirks that I think still people find quirky is I got a lot of energy. I come with a lot of personality. And, um, that can be super useful in like, talking about really boring topics. I remember doing that, like I did one around testing for some of the launches that we were doing and like everyone was done. [00:22:57] It was the end of the day. And [00:23:00] then by the end of it, people came up to me, I like, you know, got a few laughs and people were like, that was really, really great. I, I would like to help with this. And I was like, yeah, because if you can just be like exciting and human enough, it, it's a lot easier to do. And I think you, you have that sort of like the way that your brain works and how much and how quickly it's firing. [00:23:19] Phil: Those are awesome. I really appreciate that. Yeah. I feel like on Zoom most of the time people are looking at themselves more than like looking at other people and, and other people's reactions, but I totally empathize with, uh, a lot of your, your quirks there and, uh, I appreciate you you sharing some of those. [00:23:38] 1.4 Why ADHD Helps Marketers Build Better Systems --- [00:23:38] Phil: I think that we've come a long way with like mental health stigma, but it's, it's still there and people still think of anxiety, specifically H-D-H-D-A, DHD as like a limitation. When you were diagnosed and you went on this journey, like what helped you make the shift to seeing it as a strength and something [00:24:00] that could actually give you an edge in your MarTech career? [00:24:04] Angela: Yeah, I, I think it kind of goes back to the statement of, you know, like we said with tools, um, all traits and behaviors are also neutral, right? Like, the idea of a characteristic that you have, like I've been called bitchy, right? Like at work, um, that trait that I can pull out. Is super useful in situations where it is required for me to be clear, concise, have a, a very strong opinion like, and the concept of then what's put on that sort of word. [00:24:41] Just because I happen to be female obviously is, you know, exaggerated. But me having that ability to act in that way or be that way or have that behavior characteristic is considered only a negative thing when it is not welcomed or someone doesn't sort of view it. But there will be situations where it is the perfect tool to sort of [00:24:59] [00:25:00] use. [00:25:00] Phil: Hmm. [00:25:00] Angela: The same thing about like, when we think about anxiety and ADHD, there is, there's definitely things that, because our, I don't wanna say society 'cause you know, it, it depends what sort of culture, but I would say for the US was not necessarily set up. You were, you were set up to be in a place to do a thing to at one point, stare at sheets to then go to a computer, like to sit still. [00:25:26] To do this task and to press the buttons and have a thing. And of course, you know, we've evolved so much in terms of like, so much of this is about strategy and presentation and things of that sort to where, you know, the, when it comes to the type of characteristics that come out with people who have different types of, you know, invisible disabilities or, or things that you're unable to see, ~um, that the most important thing that we can do as a, I'm sorry, there's an ant on my, sorry.~ [00:25:53] ~And cut. No, um, going back to that, I, I think what, ~what we need to focus on are the things that. Using these characteristics that I have more as [00:26:00] strengths is figuring out like the neutrality of them and when they're best leveraged to play up or to play down. Um, so like I said, some of the examples, like I can connect dots pretty quickly. [00:26:14] That can be super useful in a operation issue that has like a very long chain of events that happen. So understanding that this was the result we saw, but what are the 15 things that [00:26:28] happened [00:26:29] Phil: Mm-hmm. [00:26:30] Angela: Um, and that can be super annoying. In meetings where they wanna get to context as quickly as possible, right? [00:26:39] So don't, don't, I don't wanna see the 15 dots. What happened? How are we fixing it and what's next? Right? Um, and so being able to play between those things, which actually kind of leads to another strength that I've, I know is a characteristic that shows up for people who have ADHD or even combined di you know, [00:27:00] anxiety, um, is understanding your, your audience. [00:27:03] Because naturally we're always so worried that people are gonna dislike us. They don't. We then mask or we create different versions of ourselves tailored to a person to say, this is my version I have made for you because this is what I know you need. And I have a desire to be liked or loved or, you know, accepted in some sort of way. [00:27:23] Because that wasn't something that I felt at some point in my life being able to be accepted. I had to alter my personality to fit your expectation. So then you get really good at trying to tailor experiences with your audiences. But people do this all the time. How you, I'm sure with your friends, your best buds from whatever time period versus your wife versus you know, your boss or things of that sort. [00:27:47] We all tailor it. Right. Um, and this kind of does get to a big point that I have around, you know, people like everyone bring your true self to work. Totally get it. Yes. We all have certain values and things that are important to [00:28:00] us. Um. But I do not think anybody would expect that you act the exact same way. [00:28:07] Like the way you play up your traits and your values should be equivalent across your life. That would be silly. It's the same thing with these characteristics or these aspects of, you know, uh, you know, uh, mental illnesses, or not even illnesses, like I said, more of like a superpower. But your state of being with me with ADHD is just like, these things will exist. [00:28:30] There's not much I can do except for the fact of, you know, leveraging medication, leveraging different tools like therapy. But I cannot, and nor do I want to change the way that my brain thinks too fast, that I like to have really in-depth conversations with strangers, that I have 15 different versions of myself, that I all equally love and like, that I can take out and have a conversation depending upon what that person needs. [00:28:55] Um, so that's kind of how I think through it. [00:28:58] Phil: Super cool in depth [00:29:00] conversation with strangers. Uh, I feel like that's what I do for, for a [00:29:03] Angela: Yeah, it does see, it aligns really, really well. It's a super useful skill. Like if you can just meet a person and be like, can you tell me your entire life story? You know, and they're just like, yes. And that helps when you also have the personality and energy is like, I would love to open up to you, which you have that you have that face as someone that they just wanna open up to. [00:29:22] ​ [00:31:25] 2. Building a Bridge Between Strategy and Execution in Marketing Ops --- [00:31:25] Phil: One of the things you mentioned, uh, with this like whole shift that helped you achieve, uh, and, and becoming like this idea of a stronger bridge between execution and vision, and I'm curious to ask you like, what practical advice do you have for folks when it comes to things like how do you make your process more visible? [00:31:45] How do you slow down for leadership conversations and how, what does leaning into the details with your team look like in this whole context? Walk us through that. [00:31:55] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I, I do and I always feel like. [00:32:00] I guess it is. Middle management always has such a interesting and hard job because you have to figure out how to get to the details with the team, but then level it up to the right aspect for, you know, your leaders and, and what it really means. So, I mean, on a practical sort of advice, the way that I've usually approached, 'cause I, I have so many conversations on like trade offs and decisions and things of that sort is you always list all the options. [00:32:28] Sometimes even the super bad ones. 'cause they know that you have thought through everything and, you know, I've, I've been pretty like, you don't, don't do like the really, really, really bad ones, but to a certain extent it's like, hey, yeah, we could get, you know, an extra $2 million and then go ahead and extend this timeline an extra two months and then, you know, throw these 15 engineering teams at this problem. [00:32:49] Like, I don't know, like. That, you know, it's the idea of saying like, look, this is all the stops. This is none of the stops. When you're trying to like, you know, level up a process or an [00:33:00] action or a thing that you want, you know, want them to say yes to or to do to then move forward, whether it's executing some sort of campaign or, you know, evolving your tech stack or rolling out some sort of massive, you know, program. [00:33:14] Your, your goal is not to give them all the details, but to give them all the options for you to be very clear on what option you would recommend and what it would take to get to that sort of point. Um, and then be clear on the trade-offs and resources that come with it. I think like a lot of like leadership conversations, you know, like the details to them. [00:33:38] Are not the details. I think to people who are natural operators, like the details we need to know are like, what day, what am I turning on and off? What are the buttons? What connects here? Who's it, what's it for them? The details are more about like, when will this thing be live in a place or a market to where we can understand if it's connecting well with the, because we were the traveler. [00:33:59] [00:34:00] That's like a deadline. What are the details on saying that this problem that happened two months ago will never happen again? What, what have you done to change that equation at that point? Sometimes it's just like, we have fixed it. It was this and now it's this, and then that's all that they, they sort of want, and then you always have to have like backup of like documentation. [00:34:20] But for the details, your, your best bet is really to make sure that you understand and all leaders are different, but most of them, your audience is like, I need to know the details that are critical for me to do my job well. Which is understanding across the board of the other 15 teams or leaders that I'm working with, when they can depend upon a thing. [00:34:40] Another step I would just say is if you're gonna step into a meeting and that you, you don't, you don't know what level that they want. You can always ask and kind of like a, it's not a sneaky way, but in a way of saying like, we're gonna talk about this today. How much, how much do you [00:35:00] know about this topic? [00:35:02] And what would, what information would be helpful in order for us all to have the same context? Um, that can be a way, I think, to have a better conversation because someone might come in and say like, yeah, I know. I know where we're at. I, I want to know this. And they'll, they'll help you get to that point. [00:35:19] Then you might have someone say, I, what is this about? I didn't, I didn't read the agenda. that case, you know, you can, they say it and then the rest of the room acknowledges, okay, when she starts going through this, this isn't because she didn't read the room, it's because someone specifically asked for it. [00:35:33] Um, so that can be a super, you know, good way of, of going about it. And, and when it comes to, like, slowing down there, leadership and, and a lot of, you know, of, you know, who I at least I personally report into, but in general in my career, they, they're always going to want all the things as quickly as possible. [00:35:55] To be fair, that is their job, right? Their job is to try to push the sorts of teams. [00:36:00] Your ability, especially when you're kind of more in that sort of middle layer, is to be able to explain, to get to those things, what the, the cost or what the, um, expectation or expense or trade off is. You don't have to say explicitly like. [00:36:20] We have to slow down. You do have to explicitly say, it sounds like we want a lot of things, and a lot of these things take a lot of foundational work and that foundational work isn't necessarily usable. However, it does allow us to go faster once we have it. Given that this sort of thing to do it right and to do it well is at minimum X amount of time. [00:36:41] Would you like us to make sure we have this foundational part correct, or would you like us to try to get something out as quickly as possible, knowing that it may not scale [00:36:51] Phil: Hmm. [00:36:52] Angela: and it's not about pushing the problem to somebody else, but you don't have to necessarily explicitly state the [00:37:00] thing without them being able to arrive. [00:37:02] But you always need to have an opinion and recommendation in your back pocket. [00:37:07] Phil: Yeah, that's a really cool reframing of it. 'cause I feel like your, your perspective is balancing that whole execution side of thing with the folks that care more about strategy and, and vision like you kinda shared, right. I, [00:37:21] 3. Execution Defines Whether Ideas Live or Die --- [00:37:21] Phil: I feel like in, in your career and a lot of other folks too, when you move up the ladder, so to speak, you kind of. Do a little bit of ops, hands-on work, still operating, but you have to care more about things like strategy and, and be able to speak the vision, speak and have that exact presence. Right. Um, but you, you've done a bunch of everything when it comes to like execution from ESP migrations to IP warming projects, lifecycle strategy things. [00:37:50] Um, you've had to balance both execution and strategy. But lots of folks think that when they move up in their careers, that's when they need to step away from the hands-on [00:38:00] execution stuff and they need to wear their grownup pants and think more strategically and team leadership stuff. You've actually said that vision, or you've actually said that execution is where differentiation happens. [00:38:13] Why do you believe execution deserves way more credit than strategy in marketing ops? [00:38:19] Angela: Yeah. Yeah, that one's probably definitely. I'm sure I'll ruffle a few feathers on that. Um, and it's probably 'cause I do have a slightly different, uh, definition of execution, but I believe anyone, like we have good ideas all the time. Right. How many pieces of work I'm sure that you've done, I've done anyone who's listening has done, have you just have gone to go die in a file from a PowerPoint deck that you spent like three weeks on or something of that sort. [00:38:50] Right. [00:38:50] Phil: many. [00:38:51] The graveyard is [00:38:51] Angela: many. It's so big. Right. And it's not to say that that was a bad idea. It was about getting the right people to help you [00:39:00] execute it. And that's the thing. We all have really good ideas. A really good idea is to solve world hunger. Cool. Have we, we haven't really figured that out. Right? Because the execution of it is challenging and obviously that's a pretty, like big sort of example, but to kind of bring it back to like marketing ops, like we get a lot of, you know, really great ideas on how a brand should come to life or how we should connect with a customer or traveler or whoever it might be. [00:39:27] Um, but your ability to be able to get from point A to point B, if you end up having an excellent strategy that you feel it's like foolproof and then your execution falls apart. Was it a good strategy? Like, and some of the times it can be the fact like obviously the tooling wasn't, you know, set. And I have, I have seen where it was a pretty good strategy and we didn't have the, the platform to really support it. [00:39:53] So then we went out and we invested more in our platform to make sure that it could go out. But that means that that strategy would have never seen the [00:40:00] light of day. Unless we fix the execution, unless we allow people to scale. Unless we, and so when, when I mean that in, in execution, it's like the idea of button pushing, [00:40:10] right? But my kind of expanded definition of that is, um, the idea execution is being able to get people on board with an idea and a concept enough to get whatever you decided in that strategy to market. And we all work, I think, I mean, there are very few people that I know and I'm like, yeah, I do it all and I push all the buttons and set up all the strategy. [00:40:35] But most of the time it's convincing a whole bunch of people. I don't work for you nor on your team to say, please, can you do this thing [00:40:41] Phil: Sh. [00:40:42] Angela: because it's gonna make my life easier. It'll probably make your life easier, I promise. I'll, I'll shout to the world on how wonderful you were. But it is a lot about that. [00:40:51] It's execution is about persuading people as well, and that is a leadership skillset that isn't about necessarily generating the idea, [00:41:00] but regardless of whether or not it's your idea or a good idea, getting other people to be able to say, yes, a committed yes, I will do it. That itself, I believe, deserves a lot more strategy or a lot more credit than, than the strategy. [00:41:15] Phil: It's such a cool way to think about it. So how, how do you think like we fix this, like [00:41:19] 4. Why Recent Execution Experience Builds Better Marketing Leaders --- [00:41:19] Phil: if you think of your typical leadership team in, in big companies, it's made up primarily of people that are vision high up in the sky strategy level folks, and there isn't a ton of representation from individual contributors and people that understand what pushing the buttons actually means and the impact and the work behind it and, and all of that stuff. [00:41:46] Like how, how do we fix that? Like how do we get more representation of execution and IC folks in, in leadership teams? [00:41:53] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. No, I would, uh, you know, like I said, I'll, I have a strategy and idea about whether or not it executes well, we'll [00:42:00] see if anybody else wants to take that, but I, I think so. I think one thing foundationally is that one good operators from earlier in their career to the point of reaching some sort of C-suite if they truly have. [00:42:15] That sort of point of view, hopefully, and I'm speaking maybe to myself if I ever get to that point, is the idea that they, they take that sort of understanding with them as they grow. And it is about getting people who have been in the weeds in those sorts of positions. Right. Um, and so it is about the idea, like even when I see traditional, like CMO roles, a lot of them have branding or agency or creative sort of experience. [00:42:41] That's great. Cool. But we all know that there's an aspect of the benefits of having someone who has been a operator, who has worked in technology, who understands the underlying functions of data and uh, you know, um, uh, customer research and that stuff [00:43:00] that I think goes a little bit broader. And so I think it's just about getting a really good mix there in terms of bringing like individual contributors a little bit more close to it. [00:43:08] I think the, you have to find. An individual contributor who understands kind of what I stated beforehand, that you cannot get so bogged down into the details of like, well, if this, then that, then this. 'cause then you're gonna lose them on those sorts of things. You have to match them. You have to meet them where they're at. [00:43:31] And for leaders where that's at is we have a thing we wanna do. It's gonna drive something that's super important to us. I would like to get that done as quickly as possible. And then in your side, like I said, it's coming to the table of saying, cool, I totally understand. I agree. It's important. I would like to help. [00:43:46] Here's what I need in order to make that happen. Because at this time we cannot do X, Y, and Z. Then at that point they get curious, well, why can't we? Great question. Let me tell you some more. So [00:44:00] it's all about kind of saying, you know, aligning with what they want, understanding what that might be, and then being able to dive a little bit deeper to get that sort of representation. [00:44:10] Like at the tables, I've seen some really great things that I know at, at places that I've worked have been the idea of creating these like groups where you do bring in someone who has a very special interest or very, you know, unique understanding of something and you bring them to the leadership table. [00:44:27] Now at first, the expectation should be like, just listen. Try to understand what they're trying to say. But then eventually you get to that point where they're saying, we need you to come back with like a thing. It's all about those leadership teams, not just talking to and at each other, but bringing in the people occasionally to gut check the sorts of challenges that we have on getting things out the door. [00:44:52] And I know that's something that I personally do. Is that I always try to take those voices that exist and say, Hey, sounds like we've got a problem. I'm gonna [00:45:00] raise it over here. Can you help me frame it up? And then if it gets enough traction, I say, cool, you're gonna be presenting on this date. Can you please talk to them about this and what you need to be sort of successful? [00:45:10] But it does require, you know, people to carry those voices throughout, especially when it comes to people who are like hands on keyboards doing that sort of work. [00:45:21] Phil: Yeah. Such a good advice, like having. The people in IC shoes speak firsthand. Like it's one thing to have, you know, the layers of management and someone at the top getting the intel from an IC on their team and then taking their own spin on that. Like, they're playing telephone, right? And then they bring it to the leadership team and they're like, I think he said something, or she said something like this. [00:45:45] And then she explained, I I, I'll have to double check. Like I, I didn't take notes when she was explaining it to me, but we have something wrong with, uh, like our domain reputation [00:45:54] Angela: Exactly. Yeah, [00:45:55] Phil: I love using email deliverability as an example there. I know that's, that's also close to your heart. [00:46:00] Um, but yeah, it's really good advice. [00:46:02] Like something else that you said kinda related to this that I, I felt deeply when I was reading some of your notes there, like [00:46:09] 5. How to Build Discernment in Martech Leadership --- [00:46:09] Phil: you've described yourself as someone with deep passion who had to learn discernment and the muscle of indifference and. Your advice is basically like, not every battle is worth the fight. [00:46:21] And I felt this profoundly because I've always had issues figuring out what are the battles that are worth fighting for? Because I felt passionate about a lot of the things that I had my hands in. And as someone who is also very passionate about work and sometimes borders on like taking criticism a bit personally, uh, I need to lean on this advice. [00:46:42] So like, how do you decide today at which battles to fight and which ones to kinda let go and, and save for another day? [00:46:50] Angela: Oh man, it's been a rough journey and it's, it's like, it's like flexing a muscle. And here's the thing is like, you just never get it perfect. You just, you just get a little [00:47:00] bit better at refining like, what matters. Um, and I know I don't have it like down today, 'cause even today, like the amount of times I wanted to jump into a conversation, meetings we were having and I was just like that, like I wanted and I was just like, doesn't really matter. [00:47:18] It was so funny. It was a question was brought up is like, do you wanna be right or do you wanna be happy? [00:47:23] Phil: Hmm. [00:47:23] Angela: and I, you know, there's also a part, like those two things can coexist at the same time, but in some situations it's like. I don't have to be right. I'm totally good. What the group wants, I'm more than happy to help facilitate. [00:47:35] It is not the hill I will die on today. And that was something that literally happened today. And like I said, this is like very, very common, I'm assuming, against anyone in these sorts of leadership, especially when it comes to a place where you are bridging both the idea of like a marketing strategy, right? [00:47:52] Which there's some science behind it, but there's also a whole bunch of these like feels and what people expect to be good and things of that sort. And then of [00:48:00] course you have the other side, the technology, right? Which, you know, can be it. It is very flexible, but it's also very rigid, right? Like if a thing doesn't work then it, it's just not gonna plug in. [00:48:10] And then you have to do the 85 steps to kind of get it to that and being in that sort of place like. Translating back and forth and having sort of conversations back and forth. It ends up putting you in a lot of places where you get into, um, intense creative discussions or, you know, arguments. You get into some arguments, some, some disagreements, and there's a lot of healthy friction that can exist, but sometimes there isn't. [00:48:32] And that's when you have to decide. So when I get into those points, and I don't go through all four of these questions every single time, 'cause sometimes I just get to the first one and I'm like, oh, so not, not gonna, doesn't matter. Then, um, I first ask like, does this thing block or enable momentum? So this point that has come up that I want to refute or I want to challenge or I want to do, does this, me bringing this thing up, does it actually [00:49:00] help us start to move forward? [00:49:01] Or is it me just trying to get a point out that, or is it me trying to like stop a thing that I just don't think is valuable? Like if the goal of when you're having discussions, you're, you're not trying to win, you're trying to get to a point that everyone is just trying to understand what are we doing, why are we doing it, and how is it important? [00:49:20] And all of that is about getting momentum, getting people to say, I'm committed to doing this thing. And not like a counterfeit yes, but like an actual like, yes I'm in. Um, if it makes me feel weird. So if I like get to a point where I'm like, why am I getting bothered by this? Like why is this a thing that's like, Ooh, is it because I just spent three weeks working on it and someone tore down in less than three minutes? [00:49:46] Is it because, um, I actually disagree foundationally with this thing? Or is it because like they don't have this piece of information that is going to fundamentally. [00:49:58] Change the entire thing. They're [00:50:00] missing something. And that's not their fault. I have new information, they don't have it, let me tell them. [00:50:03] And so when it's making me sort of feel weird, I just try to question that, like, what is this kind of coming from? Because sometimes it's like conflicting with like a value, but sometimes it's just ego. It's like I have to say the thing because I'm the leader in the room, but sometimes I'm like, no, you don't. [00:50:20] You don't have to ask questions or you don't have to say something to be important. Um, and then I ask whether it's a problem or noise. So is this actually like a thing that is worth bringing up because it's like, oh my gosh, this is a real problem. Or is this just like a thing right now that everyone's frustrated, we just redid the project plan, like for the billionth time. [00:50:42] Like what, where are we at with this? Is this just sort of noise? And then the last one that's so important I think in kind of deciding this is like, do you have the energy? Everyone always talks about time, right? Like, do I have the time? Okay, your, your time technically, like we, everyone knows, is a certain amount of hours, certain amount of minutes, certain amount of seconds in a [00:51:00] day. [00:51:00] And I still refute the fact that everyone has the same 24 hours in a day. People have variety of different experiences where those 24 hours do not equate to what they would be capable of doing, but energy, right? That kind of depends a little bit on the person and what they have based on their wellness, their situation, their environment, um, and, and what they have to give at that time. [00:51:20] And sometimes there are things that maybe answer yes to all those questions, but I just don't have the energy. I do, I do not have it. Um, and is not something that I'm willing to then sacrifice where I've saved my energy to go bike riding with my son or, you know, on a date night with my husband that I reserve that energy and I put it someplace else. [00:51:41] Um, so it's not perfect, but like I said, is it about blocking your enabling momentum? Is this making you feel weird? And why? Question it? Um, and is that a value thing or an ego thing? Is it actually a real problem or is it just noise? And then probably most importantly, you might wanna put that one up at the [00:52:00] front is just, is it worth my energy? [00:52:02] Sometimes the answer's no, and that's okay. [00:52:05] Phil: That's such great advice. I feel like a lot of folks listening, going back and replaying battles that they've had or arguments like stages of storming and figuring out, do I say this thing? Do I try to push this, do I not? And there's always this like internal conflict and reflecting on like, is this ego, is it something. [00:52:28] That they're missing, that you just need to like inform them about? Is it a mix of kind of all of those things, right? Like is it really stopping the project from hitting its goal as such, such great advice? I feel like, you know what, like how do you teach this to your team? Like, are there, like, aside from like asking those questions and then deciding whether you have that energy, like I feel like it's, it's a good framework. [00:52:52] 5.2 Energy Economics for Marketing Ops Leaders --- [00:52:52] Phil: Like how do you figure out like what energy looks like in that situation? Like for me, like, I'll give you an example like, um. [00:53:00] I'll use email deliverability again, like I'll go back to the case. Um, I was at a startup and we had really poor email deliverability issues and a lot of the implementation execution work was on the IT team to get, um, new records set up in DNS and like I didn't have access to all of those things. [00:53:19] And so I just needed things to get done really, really quick. And I explained a lot of the things, probably went too much into the details at that level. And instead of folks just being like, yeah, this is critical, like we'll get this done right away. Like thanks for the context, Phil. I was faced with resistance because they didn't have all the context despite me oversharing, the, the, like, the level of information. [00:53:42] But I felt like I, I took it personally that there was resistance to my solutions or my suggestions based on the 12 years of email deliverability experience that I have in marketing and, and all that stuff. And they were just like, well, we're not sure about like, having all of our [00:54:00] emails to customers be on a separate SubD domain. [00:54:02] Like, why would we have to do that? And it's just like, like that, that part of it, you know, like, I do, I have the energy to do that or not. I don't know, like, how important is this thing to getting through the door? I don't know if that makes sense. Like that, that whole energy thing. Like, I get it, I feel it more after the fact. [00:54:21] So like, how do you train your team to be more mindful about that battery of energy at work and like, you know, what's gonna drain it? What's not gonna drain it? I feel like it's, it's easier said than done, right. [00:54:33] Angela: Oh yeah, yeah. No, on email deliverability, I think, uh, as your example, it can be so rough with, with that. And, and the good news is for mine, it's attached to a copious amount of money. So it was like, cool, this is how much money's losing. We all go do work. Yes, we're on it. I was like, that's what I thought. Um, but yeah, you're, you're right. [00:54:50] It's kind of like this idea of, of things that we're deeply attached to, right. That are super important to us, and that's where it, it can be really, really hard. Um, which is [00:55:00] actually why I think some aspects of like ai, the ability for us to be able. To produce the amount of work we do a little bit, you know, faster and quicker. [00:55:09] We have a better ability to detach because I didn't spend a copious amount of time trying to get this. I've, I've lessened the amount of time and effort I've invested in a thing, but the output is still solid. This sort of same thing kind of happens when we're, we're thinking about what sort of things we can go after. [00:55:26] It's very human for us to say, when I feel attacked or when I feel the thing that I value is not being valued by others, then that means I need to go on defense. I need to, I need to say, but why and be upset and, and, um, you know, uh, react versus respond. And that's, that's human, right? There's, there's technically nothing wrong with that. [00:55:51] However, we work in a corporate world where that is not acceptable and then that's what gets you interesting labels throughout the sort of time. And so [00:56:00] in teaching teams one. Each of their values are going to be different, right? Like, so the things that are important to me as, as a person, are very different than maybe some of the other people in my team in terms of what they either personally value or how they view, view their work. [00:56:17] Which is why I have like, I produce like an operating manual that I send to my team and I say, I don't want you to guess all my funny, quirky stuff. I'm just gonna go ahead and tell you this is, this is how I am. And when I say this, it never means like this. Like I kind of walk them through that. 'cause I don't want them to have expectations in their head about me that aren't necessarily true that I never put out. [00:56:38] But when it comes to the things that understanding for them what's important, like discernment as we know is not about doing less. It's about doing the things that are ideally going to move the needle and your ability to judge well on essentially like what things deserve that energy to move the needle, to make things go further. [00:56:56] Um, and in the ops world. [00:57:00] Specifically in marketing ops, there's places where like if you drop the ball, like nobody else picked it up. Like, and so you sometimes don't have that ability, right? But you do have accountability that you can make sure that, that the teams that are responsible for fixing it, that you, you follow through on those sorts of things. [00:57:20] Um, and so in each of like my team, I try to make sure that they understand that sometimes there's a thing, I say, it's just email. We're not in the ER like that. No one's, no one's going to die. We do need to be responsive. We do need to do our job well. But this is like, this is just marketing, we're [00:57:37] Phil: Yeah. [00:57:38] Yeah. [00:57:40] Angela: Um, the second thing is I do try to, I, I don't believe in busy. [00:57:44] I only believe in prioritization. And sometimes I tell people, just look at your prioritization list. If this thing is falling below your energy and your capacity, then guess what? It doesn't matter because we always care about the things. That are urgent. If my house caught fire right now, I guarantee I'd be off [00:58:00] this podcast. [00:58:00] Right? Because that's the most important thing. But right now you are the most important thing, which is, you know, so it's, it's how we think about those sorts of things. So in general, I do talk to my team in terms of kind of like that, that, you know, checklist that I go through is like, what is this thing going to enable? [00:58:15] Why is this making us feel funny? And in meetings it's kind of sometimes you have to say something or not say something really quickly. I think a lot of the time you just, you have to kind of fiddle with that depending upon your audience that you have. Right? And, and you know, think of like worst case scenarios. [00:58:30] You say something and someone's like, yeah, cool, whatever. Um, or if you say something and then it completely changes the trajectory of something negatively or positively. And so that you just have to learn, you have to do stuff. Um, but I think when it comes to like, you know, my directs, it's just that idea of people who direct reporting to me is like, what, what can we just let go? [00:58:52] Does this thing, do you plan to think about this thing for the next two weeks? Is it really that important? If, if it is something you're really [00:59:00] interested in and you think is critical, I, I will plant that flag next to you. We will die on that hill together. But I do like, you have to be aware that sometimes this thing that means so much to this other person and takes you so little effort to do, what's that cost? [00:59:17] Just go ahead and do it. But if a thing that cost you a lot and that's not something that you think is a value, is it worth having that conversation and figuring that out? So, can't necessarily, there's, there's ways to think about it, but it's, it's a hard one. I don't even know what I'm doing to be perfectly honest. [00:59:36] Phil: I don't think anyone does, but you. You had fantastic advice. Angela, I feel like we could keep chatting for a couple hours here. Like I love your point about I don't believe in busy. I just believe in having a prioritized list, and it's such a cool reframing because it's so easy to say like, I'm so busy. [00:59:54] There's so many things going on right now, and it's like, all right, chill. Like make your list, like what are the most important [01:00:00] things right now? And all the other shit you have in your head. Like just keep that for later. Like that's goes back to the whole topic about anxiety. Like for me, battling anxiety throughout my career, it's always been about this feeling of being overwhelmed, like not being able to fall asleep at night because I have these 17 things going on and when I went through a mindfulness journey, I learned to. [01:00:21] Put things in a box and save them to later because like the, the world isn't ending right now. We're working in email. We're not saving babies like it's gonna be okay. Just put stuff in a box and worry about it later. Um, yeah. Angela, it's been a super fun conversation. [01:00:39] 6. How to Build a Personal Growth Formula in Marketing Leadership --- [01:00:39] Phil: I got one last question for you. We usually say like, let's bring things back to the humans because we are the humans of MarTech podcast. [01:00:46] But I feel like the whole conversation has been about humans. This has been a super fun conversation. ~So you're a marketing exec at a 10 k plus person. Uh, 15 billion public company. I'll say that again.~ Angela. You're a marketing exec at a 10 K person, 15 billion public company. Uh, you're a team leader, obviously forever, an [01:01:00] execution minded operator. [01:01:01] You're also a speaker, a writer, but you're also a mother of two, and you've got a ton of hobbies on the side, like gardening, interior design, woodworking, rock climbing, biking, photography, a bunch of other ones. Um, clearly you got a ton of stuff going on in your life. Like one question we ask everyone on the show is how do you remain happy and successful in your career, and how do you find balance between all the stuff you're working on while staying happy? [01:01:24] Angela: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's um. That, that question around like happiness, like it's something that it's just so normal that we try to like ask you like, what, what will make you happy? And, and the, it's like one of those questions that almost everyone has the same answer, but it's never exactly said in the same way, which I mean says something, there's some sort of universal truth to this thing. [01:01:42] And so the way that I thought about it is. For me, it was at one point, one thing, it was all about success. However, I define success at that time, which was usually a lot of different activities, right? Just fill my thing with stuff to do and not only fill it, but be good at it. And then if I wasn't good at it or someone told me I was bad at [01:02:00] it, then I was no longer successful, so therefore I could not be happy. [01:02:03] Um, I'm glad to say, as you know, the joy of Parenthood, um, for those who have experienced it, it, it's, I know it's said all the time, but man, it does change you. And so with that, for me, is no longer just one thing. I think of happiness now as like a formula, but just like in any sort of formula, you have all these factors, right? [01:02:25] And these factors can actually exist in a ton of different emotional states. So I know sometimes the goal is to feel like I wanna be happy. I also want to sometimes feel grief or sadness or all the other things that are frustrated, angry, um, disappointed. Um, you know, and I'm sure I've gone through all those emotions today, just like in all the meetings that I've had. [01:02:47] Right. And I know there's like a state of wanting to be happy, and I think generally that most of the time I am, but I've also recognized in my life that I'm not, and it doesn't mean that those periods of my life were not of, [01:03:00] you know, weren't worthwhile or something of that sort. But all this to say is like, when I think of my formula of like, what brings me happiness is, are the values that I have being honored in a environment, in a place and by people that I love, that I hold dear to me? [01:03:16] Do I have, do I get to pick my chosen challenges? Um, I think a lot of the time we have challenges put upon us, and this is the idea of like growth, right? Everyone talks about like, I want growth. And usually most of the time you get growth is because you've been challenged, because you've worked out at the gym and now you have bigger muscles because you know, you've, uh, watered the tree. [01:03:37] You've done some sort of activity that isn't necessarily easy, that has allowed you to change the way in which you think about things. And I think being able to choose some of those things, which I'm very fortunate, I know not everyone gets that is, is a part of my happiness. Discernment. Just as we talked about realizing what things are important and what things aren't prioritization, and then also recognizing that there's growth and rest [01:04:00] phases. [01:04:00] I think it's so hard for us who are just constantly go, go, go, that the idea that there's times in your life where your rest isn't like, I'm gonna sit on the sofa and do nothing. It is just more about the idea of, I. Giving yourself grace and space to not climb a ladder, but to explore a landscape and be okay with that. [01:04:20] And that it doesn't have to mean that you have to keep getting better at a thing. Sometimes you can just do a thing because it's enjoyable. And so how I remain happy is playing up each of these things. And sometimes it's all of them. Sometimes it's only one of them, but I always have a little bit of happiness there. [01:04:41] And then sometimes those pieces go into other places to where I'm not so happy. But I'm definitely able to, you know, to understand what would get me to that place of happiness. [01:04:57] Phil: So cool. I've asked this question [01:05:00] over almost 200 times now to 200 different people and you're probably my favorite answer. Even though you said like a lot of the answers are like a different like spin on the same answer. Your formula reframing of it and like would you say space and grace to explore landscape. [01:05:20] I love it. It is such a cool answer, Angela. [01:05:23] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. Well it's, it's true. Or at at least it's true for me. But I hope that other people start to think of their happiness in that way too, because it can be so hard when it's tied to this one thing because you are not one thing. Humans are multidimensional. They have so many different factors, and you should be okay with recognizing all of them, including all of my super fun different traits as someone with ADHD. [01:05:45] Phil: Angela, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. [01:05:48] Angela: Yeah, it was great speaking with you too, Phil. Thank you for having me.