Charlie Loften: The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There are really big, deep questions that we ask each other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in our understanding of who God is, his word, and the way that he's called us to live. Everyone, welcome to the Cultivate podcast with The Grove Church.
I'm Charlie Loften. I'm the lead pastor there, and I'm here with
Abigail Boone: DJ Bagel, DJ.
Charlie Loften: DJ Bagel Boone is
Abigail Boone: back. I can really tune in and hear you again.
Charlie Loften: When do you have one of those little little table DJ tables?
Abigail Boone: But I downloaded an app on my phone, So I'm starting to learn.
Charlie Loften: Okay. Yeah. Could you at some point in future to do that for us during the podcast?
Abigail Boone: Oh, I think for sure.
Charlie Loften: Okay. Have to connect the sound, I guess, to your
Abigail Boone: yes, but then I could take song requests of like one from your generation and one from mine.
Charlie Loften: Our now we're now we're a completely different podcast. Yeah,
Abigail Boone: we've always wanted to do that, right? He just launched it all
Charlie Loften: who would listen
Abigail Boone: Cassie. Shout out from two episodes ago. Granny Boone. Granny Boone would probably but probably the whole time she'd be like,
Charlie Loften: oh, we are talking.
Abigail Boone: Why is this happening again?
Charlie Loften: I'm so proud of you, honey, But why? Well, we are currently not doing a pop culture or music podcast to DJ Bagel Boone's chagrin, but we are going through the parables and we've been working our way through them for a few months now and have 10 ish left.
Abigail Boone: Oh, I thought you're about to say we've only done 10.
Charlie Loften: No, we've done
Abigail Boone: we've done way
Charlie Loften: more we've done way more than 10. And we are about to kind of back to back here in these two episodes. These these parables are very similar. Okay, and they're both about prayer and Jesus teaching about prayer, but they're both we've combined some but I think these are different enough. And again, some of the like the parable itself, I think they're both just kind of cool enough to kind of like get their own space, but we'll kind of learn a little bit about what Jesus says about prayer.
So we will start here in Luke chapter 18, the parable of the persistent without a
Abigail Boone: Luke lately.
Charlie Loften: What's that?
Abigail Boone: We've done a lot of Luke lately. Yeah, the big parable guy.
Charlie Loften: Yeah, I think we were in Matthew there for quite a while.
Abigail Boone: Guess it's
Charlie Loften: kind of switched over. Yeah. Verse one. Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. What a just what a great intro as like, at least for our purposes.
Abigail Boone: Just don't give up.
Charlie Loften: Well, it's like, if you think about, like, what is it? We're trying to figure out here in our podcast. Who's it to?
Abigail Boone: I guess that's true. So the disciples
Charlie Loften: and what's it about? Like, why did he do? And not just he didn't just say prayer, but very specifically not to give up. Should always pray and not give up.
Abigail Boone: Most people will probably be more satisfied of that's the sum of the parable instead of some confusing story that doesn't seem like it relates.
Charlie Loften: And then Jesus told his disciples, hey, you should always pray and not give up.
Abigail Boone: That's that's American type teaching.
Charlie Loften: Then just bend it just
Abigail Boone: moves on. They're like true.
Charlie Loften: Let's let's not say that the Gospels aren't anything like Paul. That's kind of a Paul would say. Yeah, you should pray and not give up. Done. But Jesus says, now, here's a story real quick.
Here's a story that is going to make you just a little bit uncomfortable. Verse two, he said, in a certain town, there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, grant me justice against my adversary. For some time, he refused, but finally he said to himself, even though I don't fear God or care what people think, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice so that she won't eventually come and attack me.
Abigail Boone: That's so aggressive. That he thought she was going to attack me.
Charlie Loften: Right. So you got, you've got this guy. He's terrible. Like it just in every way. He's like people don't like him.
He didn't care about people doesn't care about God, but he's a judge somehow. And this widow says, need Justice and I don't even care about you. And And then finally, she just keeps coming back. So I thought I guess I got to get rid of this crazy woman because she might
Abigail Boone: she might attack.
Charlie Loften: She might pull out a shiv stab me.
Abigail Boone: My go prison mode on me.
Charlie Loften: Verse six, and the Lord said, listen to what the unjust judge says, and will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice and quickly. However, when the son of man comes, will he find faith on the earth?
Abigail Boone: It's random ending, but funny comparing a crazy woman to him.
Charlie Loften: No, you're the crazy woman.
Abigail Boone: Yes, but the crazy woman if he was like, I'm scared. My people are going to attack me. Keep asking over and over again.
Charlie Loften: I think the thing that really kind of shocks people the most about this parable is, you know, prodigal son and God God's kind of like this really nice father.
Abigail Boone: You
Charlie Loften: know, God is like this king who's really forgiving. But if you if you're not forgiving, he'll he'll he'll punish you or he's like a guy with all this money and he gives you some talents and hopes you'll do something with them while you're gone. In this the parallel is between God and the worst possible person we can describe, right?
Abigail Boone: Yeah, But they both give.
Charlie Loften: Right. So how does how does how does why would Jesus do that? You think to kind of in order to describe why the persistence in prayer is important? Why would he use an example of such a odious character?
Abigail Boone: Only thing that isn't that what they call Shrek? He's odious.
Charlie Loften: Have to look that up.
Abigail Boone: Okay, culture reference.
Charlie Loften: I mean, I know doctor does say, know, they stank stank when he's comparing why ogres are like onions. They'll stank make you cry. Yes.
Abigail Boone: Yes. Yes. But I don't about Otis. What a movie.
Charlie Loften: Fact. We had just had our second child in the sun in the fall of two thousand, and for the first time, it was 2001, it was kind of our first little date night, and we wanted to go see a movie.
Abigail Boone: So you went to go see Shrek.
Charlie Loften: And I took my wife on our anniversary to go see Shrek. I heard really great things about it and I was relatively young and naive. Okay.
Abigail Boone: So that wasn't like a home run.
Charlie Loften: No, no, no, It was it was a swing and a miss that I guess what now? Out of town and was just kind like, here's a movie theater out here. Let's go to the movie.
Abigail Boone: I would love that.
Charlie Loften: Yeah, and I think I'm trying to remember I think it was either that or Pearl Harbor, which
Abigail Boone: which was really
Charlie Loften: long. I had already seen it and I mean, I don't know. Don't know that Heidi would have liked that either
Abigail Boone: really,
Charlie Loften: but it was long really long and I had already seen it
Abigail Boone: but been a matter in it. Wait, no is Matt Damon in that don't
Charlie Loften: think Matt's
Abigail Boone: in it. Okay, but Rafe what a movie. Haven't seen that in a long time. Well interesting choice on
Charlie Loften: looking looking back on it. I should have made the other choice but
Abigail Boone: you should have anyway, if those were your only option why
Charlie Loften: would Jesus?
Abigail Boone: Okay. This is my thought that he can be moved right that like both of these scenarios, I guess maybe not well in the judges position. Wasn't going to do it maybe and then he was moved to do it Jesus. I don't know that he wasn't going to do it, but he was moved by the persistent pleading.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. So even the worst person can be persuaded by persistence. Yeah. And so if the worst person could be persuaded by persistence, How much more can you trust on God to be motivated by your persistent prayer?
Abigail Boone: Kind of like didn't we do the one where like the person comes to the door in the middle of the night and knocks we have not done that one. Okay.
Charlie Loften: It is amazing to me that that is the one that you just popped out of your head considering one. Haven't done it and to it is the one that we are doing next.
Abigail Boone: Hey, okay. No spoilers. I won't get into it.
Charlie Loften: But now I'm deeply curious like why is that front of your mind right now?
Abigail Boone: Do you say it in a sermon recently? You sure
Charlie Loften: I'm 100% sure.
Abigail Boone: I guess you probably know that better than most. Probably. Okay. Well, I don't know why it's on top of mind, but the yeah, the idea that Persistent does end up with a response,
Charlie Loften: right coming back to if terrible people will do it. You can most assuredly
Abigail Boone: how much more
Charlie Loften: trust that God will do it.
Abigail Boone: Which is interesting. Maybe you're going to get to this, but any of the parables or it may say it in the New Testament letters, but this feels like almost a really will he really like if I just pray enough.
Charlie Loften: So then that that gets to kind of what I think is just some really it's it's deeper and more complex than any sort of some simple thing. Right? So I do not think that what Jesus is saying here is if you pray for anything long enough, God will eventually give in because he's afraid you're going to attack him.
Abigail Boone: Well, just as like, okay, fine.
Charlie Loften: Okay, fine. Once you reach seven thirteen times, prayed for this. Fine. Here's a puppy.
Abigail Boone: Yeah. Well, because this actually recently went through my mind. I've just decided to move it to a different new rental property and it went through my mind of like, should just be praying about this all the time because he says ask and receive, but then also I'm like, I don't know. He's probably not thinking about my rental property, you know, like, it's not a guarantee. I'm going to get that right.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. I mean, now we're now we're now we're popcorn and everywhere as as a theological conversation with Abigail is likely to always do. Let's let's let's some of these in general. First of all, he he narrows the context here a little. Listen to what the unjust just says.
Will God not bring about justice for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night?
Abigail Boone: He give So specifically justice.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. And so will he not make right something that is wrong in the lives of people who follow him?
Abigail Boone: Okay.
Charlie Loften: Now they're asking for a very specific sort of justice. I mean, they are impoverished and oppressed and unoccupied people, you know, and, you know, JesusGod the Father. I mean, they have very long term views on what does it mean for God's people to be their timeline is longer, right? They've got a they've got a long timeline, but ultimately people who pray God will ultimately at some point, right all the wrongs. Okay.
And that is different than,
Abigail Boone: please give me a rental property.
Charlie Loften: Can I get this rental property?
Abigail Boone: Yeah.
Charlie Loften: However, okay, we can't we can't make the jump there if you and we will we will look at this a little bit more in the next one because there are some a bronze it out at least somewhat talking about that, but it's a little bit like if you ask a good father for something good. Yeah. Can you trust a good father to give you something good?
Abigail Boone: Yeah.
Charlie Loften: Can you trust a good father to give you something that's bad for you? Even if you if you ask him a whole bunch of times.
Abigail Boone: Probably not.
Charlie Loften: No, no, just because you ask God a whole bunch of times for something that is not for your good does not mean he's going to give into it. So you this broad sense of justice. He will make wrong things right.
Abigail Boone: I
Charlie Loften: think we can expand it out a little bit based on some other teachings around prayer to God is a giver of good gifts. Yeah. If you ask for something that is for your good, He will give it to you. And then now we have to start parsing words like, what does it mean? Good.
What does good mean? Yeah. And just because you perceive it to be a good thing for you does not mean that God would think that it is good for you. Know, it would be better for you actually to get this different rental property would actually, you know, sometimes there's a greater thing like I'm here. I'm now doing things with my hands.
I'm position a trying to get to be in a straight line seems to be the best way to get there. Right? But it turns out there's a blockade there that you don't see, and so you have to go around it. And so what it seems like is, I asked for B, but He sent me to C, and I feel discouraged by that, but C actually was a safer, better route to the ultimate good that God wanted to give me.
Abigail Boone: Yeah.
Charlie Loften: And so we can't this is, again, too often, and this parable is one of them, like too often we can oversimplify Jesus' teachings about prayer that somehow because of some of these promises that He's made that we've now somehow got Him boxed in. Dear God, let me win the lottery today. Let me win the lottery today. Let me win the lottery. Fine.
Here's $300,000,000 Leave me alone already. Yeah, because you really what you're saying is, you know, like a kid. Hey, let a three year old, please let me have caffeine right before I go to bed. No, please let me have caffeine before I before I go to bed. No.
Can I have some coke before I go to bed? No. Can I have Doctor? Pepper before I go to bed? No, like persistence is not always parent.
Not going to give into some sorts of persistence. Persistence always wins is not the point of this parable,
Abigail Boone: but
Charlie Loften: it is when we are persistent with God, we can trust that he will right wrongs.
Abigail Boone: So do you think this he's talking to his disciples in this and we've talked about a common miscon ception throughout all the parables that they thought the kingdom of God was going to be military revolution, all that kind of stuff. Do you think they would have heard this and be like, oh, wait, you've said the opposite, but now you're saying you will bring about Justice. Well,
Charlie Loften: that's that's a great transition question almost as if it were planned.
Abigail Boone: Oh, it was it was not
Charlie Loften: that's not how we roll here. No, I prep and
Abigail Boone: do none
Charlie Loften: and bagel comes in cold. And you never
Abigail Boone: know what's going to happen.
Charlie Loften: Next thing you know, you're talking about Shrek.
Abigail Boone: Most importantly,
Charlie Loften: such a good movie. It really is. There really is still a part of me when we fight about it. Not fight when we banter when we jokingly banter about that. Like there's worse movies.
It's a great movie. Yeah. Well, you know, it's highly very tail with it with an antihero with Mike Myers and Eddie Murphy at their absolute comedic peak. And John Lithgow just coming out of nowhere just with this. I mean, it's so good.
Abigail Boone: It's so good.
Charlie Loften: It's so good. It's
Abigail Boone: of the more quoted cartoon movies. Absolutely. I make a waffles and pick number three, my Lord. Very quoted movie.
Charlie Loften: Yes, but not enough to overcome the stigma of
Abigail Boone: it being our anniversary after my
Charlie Loften: wife has given birth to a child. And listen to what I got it. Yeah. And then, and will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?
I tell you, he will see that they get justice and quickly. However, when the son of man comes, will he find faith on the earth? So you were like, that's weird.
Abigail Boone: You
Charlie Loften: got any thoughts on that? Like what would it would
Abigail Boone: I guess that does put a little bit into ish context to the question I was asking, but interesting that he switched to faith. I mean, he's he does say justice and quickly. But then, however, I know what that word means.
Charlie Loften: All the wrongs that you are experiencing are going to be made right if God's people will persist in prayer. And then he says, again, I think the more confusing part of this is the word quickly. I tell you, he will see that they get justice and quickly. And what does he mean by quickly? However, when the son of man comes, will he find faith on the earth?
So justice is going to come when the son of man comes back to the earth.
Abigail Boone: Okay.
Charlie Loften: Right? So that if if you if you pray, God, make this this world is terrible. There's injustice everywhere. There's oppression everywhere. Free the world from the power that darkness seems to have over this world.
Give give justice to the poor, to the oppressed. Please, God, please, please, please, please. Yes, I will do that. And he is. He's going to come back and he's going to do that.
He's going to set all the wrongs right. And so he's quite the rhetorical question is when he comes back, where will there still be who are persistently faithful people on the
Abigail Boone: earth believing he will right redeem it. But this is I'm assuming at this point. Don't have a good understanding of yeah, you're going to leave and then you're going to come back out. So what if this is like
Charlie Loften: so shoot so for their purposes, they're like if you thought that was a random way to end that
Abigail Boone: they would have
Charlie Loften: they would have even more thought
Abigail Boone: because they surely would have been like we went here on about but they would have been like you're you said that you're the same. Yeah, you're you're already here.
Charlie Loften: So and with this and we're talking
Abigail Boone: we're talking about quickly. It seems
Charlie Loften: like soon. I'm right here. I'm right here. We're right here, you know, and so if they had made that connection that would make it more confusing because when the son of man comes and you're
Abigail Boone: like seems like you're here. You're here not to say the obvious, but it seems like you're in front of me.
Charlie Loften: Now I'm like, are you talking about somebody else then I thought you were I mean so or like they certainly what I don't think they would have let to also he's going to leave and then he's going to come back because the Messiah comes twice. That's yeah, they would not have thought that so that's the confusing part for them. Okay. I think the confusing part for us is his use of the word quickly. Yeah,
Abigail Boone: because it's been a long time, right? Because even Paul says like the son of man or the day is drawing near like a bunch of different things like that. It's like well and they probably thought it was even post resurrection like any day now,
Charlie Loften: right? Yeah, they were just most certainly prepared for Jesus to come back in their lifetime. Okay.
Abigail Boone: And so which is funny because now most people are scared that he's going to come back in their lifetime.
Charlie Loften: Well, mean, that shows the difference between people who just we are we actually have managed to create a relatively pleasant comfortable place, comfortable place for ourselves.
Abigail Boone: America,
Charlie Loften: right? I mean, upper upper middle class to middle class people in America would have been way richer than anybody. Any of these people had ever
Abigail Boone: known the rich people.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. I mean, especially if you, I mean, not not percentage wise, a percentage had more money, man, to you to come back to one of our favorite topics. I mean, we have, you know, sewage, right? I mean, Yes. Mean, maybe
Abigail Boone: like there's a trend on Instagram right now. It's and it just the text over the video will say I'm wealthy because and then it's like your kids and your husband playing out in the yard together. Mine would be I'm wealthy because and just a picture of a toilet
Charlie Loften: because the worst things that come out of me leave my home immediately
Abigail Boone: and I never have to think of them again. And
Charlie Loften: so not to go back, I guess, several months to our theology podcast, but, you know, what does it mean? What does quickly mean? And why does it seem like, at least from our perspective, he has decided to not come back quickly? Yeah. What is quick to God is very different.
We can easily dismiss it just by saying, God's perspective, it was quick. Yeah. This is also a God who heard his people's prayers and after four hundred years got them out of Egypt. Yeah. That that's that's mind blowing.
But I think in this context, I think what we see is the same thing where, you know, Moses leads the people to the promised land they're about to conquer. But instead, you know, they make a bad decision and God has them wander around in the wilderness for forty years. Noah is told, Hey, I'm about to God's like, I'm about to wipe out the whole place, so build a boat. And it is one hundred and twenty years from the moment God says that to when it happens. Jesus says, Hey, the world is full of injustice, and I'm going to come back quickly and make it right.
And now we are at approximately two thousand years since then. What all of those things have in common is judgment is coming, judgment is imminent, but I am willing to wait in order to graciously give just a few more people to get it right before that. Yeah, is theoretically fewer people to judge. Right? I mean, it's just like, I want to give I want to give what feels like an overwhelming amount of opportunity for people to get right with me before judgment comes.
And then your missions people would be like, I mean, if he came back immediately in their lifetime, I mean, there would have been an entire world of people who had never even gotten the message. He wants there to be enough time for hard hearted people to repent and for the word to spread to the whole place. Again, I'm not one of these people that thinks that there is some missions moment that Jesus is waiting for. Would love to come back, but you missionaries haven't quite gotten there yet. I'm times a wasting,
Abigail Boone: but
Charlie Loften: I do think that does reflect the grace and compassion of God. We're a little bit off. I guess guess we're not technically off topic.
Abigail Boone: No, we've circled around. We're just trying to explain
Charlie Loften: all the time, the loose ends, but in the end, we can know and trust that God will ultimately make things right.
Abigail Boone: And it's a call to especially the end is a call to continue to be I want to return and there still be faithful people persistently praying again and again and again.
Charlie Loften: Right. And generations and generations later, after the initial people thought it was going to be in their lifetime, we are still here praying and asking God to restore the world. And so at least at this point,
Abigail Boone: it kind
Charlie Loften: of a man will find faith when he comes.
Abigail Boone: It kind of also this may be going way too far out but like he wants to know our desires for yeah, like it's he's not just like I know don't talk to me about it. You know, like it's kind of nice to have a parent that like I can talk to my parents like they've been paying taxes so much longer than I have. But they let me talk to them about it every year as an And they're like, I know. I know.
Charlie Loften: That is a really good transition point to
Abigail Boone: Next week.
Charlie Loften: Next week. And thank you as always. And thank you for joining us here at the Cultivate Podcast. And we're really glad that you have joined us, and we hope to see you again soon. Thank you for listening to the Cultivate Podcast.
Our hope is that you are taking steps to go deeper in your faith, that you are asking big questions, and you're looking for answers. We hope that we can be a resource for you through our podcast and any other way that we can help you. You can find all our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts, including YouTube. And, again, thank you so much for joining us.