WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.209 Matt: Mark Szymanski, welcome back to the WP minute. 00:00:02.880 --> 00:00:05.120 Mark: Matt Medeiros, always a pleasure, my friend. 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:05.810 Thanks so much. 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:07.430 Matt: You rushed home from the grocery store. 00:00:07.430 --> 00:00:10.219 Your wife sent you out, said, go get some damn food for the house. 00:00:10.230 --> 00:00:10.980 It's Friday. 00:00:10.980 --> 00:00:11.980 We've eaten everything. 00:00:11.989 --> 00:00:12.779 Go get it. 00:00:13.180 --> 00:00:13.589 I text you. 00:00:13.590 --> 00:00:14.919 I'm like, Hey man, you want to record some stuff? 00:00:14.949 --> 00:00:16.070 You know, I'll be home in 20 minutes. 00:00:17.170 --> 00:00:18.619 Did you leave the eggs back at the store? 00:00:19.119 --> 00:00:20.939 Mark: I, I should double check. 00:00:20.979 --> 00:00:23.560 I should double check on the, on the, on the items. 00:00:23.610 --> 00:00:23.939 Yeah. 00:00:24.070 --> 00:00:24.350 But, 00:00:24.400 --> 00:00:25.370 Matt: You know, I walked into it. 00:00:25.860 --> 00:00:26.400 Mark: I'd rather be 00:00:26.430 --> 00:00:26.770 Matt: grocery. 00:00:26.990 --> 00:00:27.310 Yeah. 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:30.860 I walked into a grocery store the other day and I was just like, I know this 00:00:30.860 --> 00:00:34.660 is probably going to come up, sound kind of weird, but like, I, I have my 00:00:34.660 --> 00:00:36.230 groceries delivered because I walked in. 00:00:36.230 --> 00:00:38.080 I'm like, I'm going to be here for an hour and a half. 00:00:38.080 --> 00:00:38.099 Okay. 00:00:39.050 --> 00:00:40.820 I just want it door dashed. 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:42.660 I don't actually use door dash. 00:00:42.660 --> 00:00:48.220 I use the stores like built in service, but I'm just like, I, I just 00:00:48.220 --> 00:00:49.500 can't get out of that mode anymore. 00:00:49.500 --> 00:00:54.730 I know I'm spending 15 percent more, but I don't want to be in the store doing it. 00:00:55.330 --> 00:00:56.240 Mark: Time is valuable. 00:00:56.620 --> 00:01:00.470 It's not just, it's not just in that, it's in WordPress, it's in building 00:01:00.470 --> 00:01:02.340 stuff, it's in whatever, it's in life. 00:01:02.390 --> 00:01:07.280 Time is very valuable, and if you can make more money, then you can, you know, 00:01:07.310 --> 00:01:10.270 you can just deploy in different ways, and sometimes it can buy you back time. 00:01:10.650 --> 00:01:11.070 Matt: Mm hmm. 00:01:11.420 --> 00:01:12.280 That's what I feel anyway. 00:01:12.650 --> 00:01:13.910 Anyway, what are we going to talk about today? 00:01:13.910 --> 00:01:16.580 We're going to talk about, we're going to talk about WordPress content creation. 00:01:16.590 --> 00:01:17.710 I think that's a fun topic. 00:01:17.990 --> 00:01:21.364 There's a lot of folks coming up these days, starting their, their Podcast or 00:01:21.365 --> 00:01:23.885 YouTube channels, their newsletters. 00:01:24.705 --> 00:01:27.395 and, you know, talking about it from two perspectives, you've 00:01:27.395 --> 00:01:29.064 been doing it now for a few years. 00:01:29.065 --> 00:01:31.495 I've been doing it now for over 10 years. 00:01:31.794 --> 00:01:35.534 and just talking about maybe the way the, the lay of the land and, 00:01:35.534 --> 00:01:39.724 what's working, what's not, at least from our two perspectives and what 00:01:39.724 --> 00:01:43.774 we want to see, from, you know, other content creators that are out 00:01:43.774 --> 00:01:45.279 there, like What are they doing? 00:01:45.279 --> 00:01:46.889 How are they approaching this stuff? 00:01:46.889 --> 00:01:50.069 And maybe we have some, particular feedback. 00:01:51.039 --> 00:01:54.339 for me at the WP minute, I'll just kick off with one of the things that I've 00:01:54.339 --> 00:01:58.159 been, pontificating about and really came up with my friend, Corey, when we were 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:03.500 talking about, stress as an entrepreneur, and Corey was also in the WordPress 00:02:03.510 --> 00:02:07.500 still is, I mean, he still is a, an owner stakeholder in, in post status, 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:09.360 but now he has a full time gig at a two. 00:02:10.310 --> 00:02:14.260 this whole WordPress content thing, especially for us old folks who've 00:02:14.260 --> 00:02:16.110 been doing it now for over a decade. 00:02:16.460 --> 00:02:21.075 it's challenging because what I've found is one, Everybody has 00:02:21.075 --> 00:02:23.055 a newsletter, which is great. 00:02:23.065 --> 00:02:25.855 Like I love the fact that everyone's publishing content and doing this thing. 00:02:26.215 --> 00:02:29.375 but everyone has a newsletter, everyone's doing their link sharing, 00:02:29.375 --> 00:02:32.554 like, like I was doing at the WP minute when it first started. 00:02:32.884 --> 00:02:35.924 everyone's got a YouTube channel now, or I think everyone's exploring the 00:02:35.924 --> 00:02:37.824 idea of starting a YouTube channel. 00:02:38.124 --> 00:02:40.614 I'd love for people to explore more of the audio experience. 00:02:40.614 --> 00:02:43.954 And maybe we can talk about that, in a moment, but everyone's doing it. 00:02:44.269 --> 00:02:47.749 And it's making it harder for those of us who have been in the 00:02:47.749 --> 00:02:49.980 space to retain the audience. 00:02:50.470 --> 00:02:55.194 And especially the audience that I serve, which is I call the fortune 00:02:55.194 --> 00:02:58.344 5, 000 of WordPress because I think there's only 5, 000 English speaking 00:02:58.344 --> 00:03:01.514 people or 10, 000 English speaking people across, the entire world, 00:03:01.514 --> 00:03:04.014 maybe 5, 000 of them being in the, U. 00:03:04.014 --> 00:03:04.264 S. 00:03:04.264 --> 00:03:04.724 or U. 00:03:04.724 --> 00:03:05.044 K. 00:03:05.044 --> 00:03:08.414 area, and, it's becoming real challenging because there's just 00:03:08.415 --> 00:03:10.325 a lot more options for people. 00:03:10.395 --> 00:03:12.585 And maybe people are burned out at the same time of, like, 00:03:12.635 --> 00:03:14.795 tuning in to WordPress content. 00:03:15.435 --> 00:03:18.820 and you have an interesting perspective because you have your Your thing and 00:03:18.830 --> 00:03:22.560 your YouTube channel your newsletter, and you're doing it much more from like 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.490 hey, I'm learning wordpress I'm trying to make a living with this stuff and 00:03:25.490 --> 00:03:29.190 learning the fun cool stuff with wordpress So it's still kind of exciting to you. 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.080 I think not to put words in your mouth 00:03:31.480 --> 00:03:31.720 Mark: yeah. 00:03:32.760 --> 00:03:34.910 Yeah, I mean, a lot, a lot of different things there, obviously. 00:03:34.910 --> 00:03:36.190 We'll dive into each of them. 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.420 I mean, I think that, you know, First, yeah, I think the things that I've 00:03:40.420 --> 00:03:43.130 seen again is I've talked about this before we've talked about it but just 00:03:43.130 --> 00:03:48.029 the difference in like like you said earlier the the level of experience and 00:03:48.110 --> 00:03:51.680 Like I'm probably learning things you probably like watch me like learn things. 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:53.740 You're like up I know exactly where this is going. 00:03:53.740 --> 00:03:56.550 I know exactly what he's gonna think next You know, he's gonna run into this 00:03:56.580 --> 00:04:00.370 because he's learning XYZ and then the next thing is, you know I learned this 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:05.640 back when whenever right like I you know in Like in the in the come up days of 00:04:05.640 --> 00:04:09.675 whatever but I think the landscape has changed You In WordPress, from what I've 00:04:09.675 --> 00:04:14.505 seen historically, been a little bit personal, like, had personal experience 00:04:14.505 --> 00:04:16.895 with, and then also, you know, like, things that you've talked about, things 00:04:16.895 --> 00:04:19.565 that I've heard, things that I've just, you know, discovering the history of it. 00:04:20.055 --> 00:04:22.775 I think definitely a lot has changed, and I think we're in a real interesting 00:04:22.775 --> 00:04:26.635 time now where, again, we talk about it all the time, there's like, other 00:04:26.735 --> 00:04:28.895 things out there, there's other options. 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.510 which that's a separate topic in and of itself, but it does play 00:04:32.510 --> 00:04:35.590 into the idea of like, okay, well, there's a ton more content now. 00:04:35.640 --> 00:04:36.920 It's always going to be like this too. 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:38.590 There's just going to be more and more YouTube content. 00:04:38.590 --> 00:04:39.740 There's going to be more and more whatever. 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:43.060 And it's important to kind of like, you know, you got to somehow differentiate, 00:04:43.060 --> 00:04:46.860 which just gets more tough as things get more saturated, as these 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:48.710 channels get more saturated and such. 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:52.620 And then the only other thing that I was thinking about just from the, from 00:04:52.620 --> 00:04:58.580 the initial, you know, Overview you gave there is I think I've said this before 00:04:59.390 --> 00:05:02.850 In a world that's becoming more and more artificial It's more important than ever 00:05:02.850 --> 00:05:07.250 to become become like as authentic as possible And that is there's a couple 00:05:07.250 --> 00:05:10.860 ways that I sliced that but one of the ways is specifically that everything 00:05:10.870 --> 00:05:14.870 that I've seen in this community and elsewhere is Everybody is like going 00:05:14.880 --> 00:05:19.320 back to like having the personal branding aspect of a lot of things And that's 00:05:19.320 --> 00:05:22.150 one thing that i've leaned into and I think people connect with other people 00:05:22.150 --> 00:05:25.830 They connect with brands too, you know in communities as well for certain but 00:05:25.830 --> 00:05:29.560 like it's like There's just something about that that i've that i've taken 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:32.530 into consideration So if you are going to start, you know, if you're out there and 00:05:32.530 --> 00:05:36.250 you're listening you want to start making content I would at first I would just 00:05:36.250 --> 00:05:38.650 recommend just doing it under yourself Like just say you don't need to you 00:05:38.650 --> 00:05:40.090 don't need to over complicate that part. 00:05:40.380 --> 00:05:44.540 Just like be like hey You I'm so and so, I work with this stuff, here's what 00:05:44.540 --> 00:05:48.320 I'm doing, here's what I'm interested in, and people will ultimately start to 00:05:48.620 --> 00:05:51.610 find you, because that's the one good thing about the space we're in now. 00:05:51.610 --> 00:05:52.980 The algorithms are pretty good. 00:05:53.030 --> 00:05:56.030 Like, I mean, if you put out, like, half decent stuff about, like, a specific 00:05:56.030 --> 00:06:00.110 topic, they will recommend that to people. 00:06:00.440 --> 00:06:01.890 Not overnight, but it will happen. 00:06:02.330 --> 00:06:02.640 Matt: Yeah. 00:06:03.020 --> 00:06:03.310 Yeah. 00:06:03.780 --> 00:06:09.260 I mean, I was going back in, the archives of when I started my YouTube and yeah, 00:06:09.330 --> 00:06:13.180 you know, the, the big picture thinking that I have in my head right now is 00:06:13.190 --> 00:06:16.870 these tools, like right now we're recording on StreamYard, you know, and 00:06:16.870 --> 00:06:20.490 then I'll edit in Descript and then I'll, I'll, I'll probably live stream 00:06:20.490 --> 00:06:24.770 this, from the, from the WP minute podcast channel, not the WP minute 00:06:24.790 --> 00:06:29.280 tutorial channel, which are two distinct, YouTube channels for various reasons. 00:06:30.145 --> 00:06:34.155 So the tools are just getting better, easier, faster, you know, and like 00:06:34.155 --> 00:06:35.755 connecting up to these social networks. 00:06:35.785 --> 00:06:39.825 There's so much opportunity in like repurposing content where I 00:06:39.825 --> 00:06:43.135 was looking back at my original YouTube videos that I started from 00:06:43.145 --> 00:06:45.235 my studio, you know, 11 years ago. 00:06:45.285 --> 00:06:50.750 And, Like my first video was recording a review of gravity forms, you know, 00:06:50.790 --> 00:06:53.040 which I work at full time these days. 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:54.970 So it's, it's kind of funny how that came full circle. 00:06:55.190 --> 00:06:59.110 But back then I was trying to do it full, you know, air quotes, 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:00.760 full high quality production. 00:07:00.770 --> 00:07:02.320 You know, we had a, we had a whole studio. 00:07:02.320 --> 00:07:05.310 We had, we were a photo studio and a web studio at the same time. 00:07:05.520 --> 00:07:07.670 So we did a lot of video and photo back then. 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:08.870 And, I remember. 00:07:09.205 --> 00:07:13.065 You're recording it with a Nikon DSLR camera, and I could only get 00:07:13.095 --> 00:07:16.495 15 minutes on an SD card, right? 00:07:16.655 --> 00:07:19.145 Like, that's, that's as long as I could record because that's 00:07:19.145 --> 00:07:20.935 as big as the SD cards were. 00:07:21.285 --> 00:07:25.005 And then I had to, like, import all of that data into a laptop, which could 00:07:25.015 --> 00:07:29.525 barely handle it, because these things were just not, like, you needed a 10, 00:07:29.595 --> 00:07:34.560 000 computer, literally, back then, to edit those videos, where now, You 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:35.770 can do it on your iPhone right now. 00:07:36.060 --> 00:07:40.650 I have like 8, 000 worth of Sony equipment sitting back in my home office and I'm 00:07:40.650 --> 00:07:42.870 using my iPhone right now as the camera. 00:07:42.870 --> 00:07:47.930 It drives me nuts that I've spent so much money, you know, for, you know, an 00:07:47.930 --> 00:07:51.710 effect that is not dramatically different compared to like what I can do with 00:07:51.710 --> 00:07:53.900 this, you know, 1, 000 iPhone camera. 00:07:54.810 --> 00:07:59.150 Also laughable, but, you know, the world has changed in content 00:07:59.150 --> 00:08:01.500 creation and it's great that. 00:08:01.860 --> 00:08:03.350 Lots of people can get into it. 00:08:03.760 --> 00:08:06.130 my biggest criticism, I don't have a direct question here, 00:08:06.130 --> 00:08:07.230 but I love your thoughts on it. 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:11.990 My biggest criticism has always been, I want people to get started, but I 00:08:12.010 --> 00:08:14.380 don't want people giving up, right? 00:08:14.410 --> 00:08:21.020 Like I want people to at least do it for a year, like at least commit yourself 00:08:21.020 --> 00:08:27.235 to a year because at minimum, Like, that's the only, only timeline that I 00:08:27.235 --> 00:08:28.825 know of where you actually see traction. 00:08:28.845 --> 00:08:30.925 I mean, unless you're just a unicorn and you're putting out like 00:08:30.925 --> 00:08:35.595 ridiculously, you know, ridiculous hit after hit on your content. 00:08:35.885 --> 00:08:38.514 but if you're just like, Hey, I'm just trying to get this WordPress 00:08:38.514 --> 00:08:39.095 YouTube channel thing going. 00:08:39.125 --> 00:08:40.485 You got to give it like a year, man. 00:08:40.775 --> 00:08:43.135 Like, I don't, I don't know any other way to do it. 00:08:43.395 --> 00:08:47.735 unless you're just a savvy SEO or, and what happens is, is when people give 00:08:47.735 --> 00:08:52.180 up, they it detracts like from like that quality, like the tracks from 00:08:52.180 --> 00:08:55.320 the rest of us, especially if it's, if you're like being celebrated and 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:56.470 you're seeing this stuff come out. 00:08:56.770 --> 00:09:00.940 I'm not saying like it's bad if you, if you can't like proceed, but 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:04.840 I've seen people just like give it a half ass attempt and then just 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:06.360 like ruin it for the rest of us. 00:09:07.170 --> 00:09:07.390 Right. 00:09:07.390 --> 00:09:09.780 And it's, it's that it's like the 500 website builder who 00:09:09.780 --> 00:09:10.890 doesn't care about the customer. 00:09:11.390 --> 00:09:11.550 Right. 00:09:11.580 --> 00:09:13.800 I've seen this happen time and time again. 00:09:14.180 --> 00:09:14.200 yeah. 00:09:14.660 --> 00:09:18.060 And that's not of interest to me, but I don't know if you have any perspective 00:09:18.060 --> 00:09:22.300 on like lack of trying or lack of quality or like what your thoughts 00:09:22.300 --> 00:09:25.360 are like what what do you think like when you started like did you think 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.210 you're gonna is gonna take this long or faster like what were your thoughts? 00:09:29.415 --> 00:09:31.355 Mark: Yeah, so I don't know a couple things there. 00:09:31.615 --> 00:09:35.535 I think the first thing is that I, I would never discourage people 00:09:35.595 --> 00:09:37.555 from starting to do something. 00:09:37.925 --> 00:09:39.555 and I, and it resonates with me what you're saying. 00:09:39.565 --> 00:09:42.205 Like you have to try, you have to actually want to do this. 00:09:42.605 --> 00:09:44.315 I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a quick relation. 00:09:44.345 --> 00:09:48.055 A lot of times like people ask me how to get like more clients 00:09:48.055 --> 00:09:49.215 or how to get more influence. 00:09:49.215 --> 00:09:52.305 Like if I was, if I'm talking to like a client building a website, like they'll 00:09:52.305 --> 00:09:53.895 ask me for marketing advice, so to speak. 00:09:53.895 --> 00:09:55.025 It's like, how do we get more clients? 00:09:55.045 --> 00:09:57.770 And I'm like, Well, how have I gotten more? 00:09:57.790 --> 00:09:58.990 I know how you can get more clients. 00:09:58.990 --> 00:10:00.810 You can do SEO, you can do pay per click, you can do whatever. 00:10:01.190 --> 00:10:02.980 But how do you actually get more clients? 00:10:02.980 --> 00:10:05.350 Like, what are some proven ways in my mind? 00:10:05.660 --> 00:10:08.360 Well, one of the ways in my mind is literally just start talking on the 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:10.740 internet about the things that you're interested in and the things that 00:10:10.740 --> 00:10:12.450 you are building up expertise in. 00:10:12.650 --> 00:10:15.690 That is literally all I have done, and that's what so 00:10:15.690 --> 00:10:16.970 many other people have done. 00:10:17.180 --> 00:10:20.320 Now, granted, there's There are a lot of variables there. 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:24.010 There are like how experienced you are, how comfortable you are in front of a 00:10:24.010 --> 00:10:27.210 camera with a microphone in front of you, how, how much experience you have 00:10:27.220 --> 00:10:31.140 just doing that in the past in any, you know, other facet of your life. 00:10:31.510 --> 00:10:33.160 just like a litany of things there. 00:10:33.340 --> 00:10:36.630 And those are the things that start to really trip people up, I feel like. 00:10:37.030 --> 00:10:39.490 Uh, but to go back to what you're, you're kind of saying there is, 00:10:39.490 --> 00:10:43.650 yeah, I would, I think that if I'm telling somebody to get into content, 00:10:43.660 --> 00:10:45.130 specifically like WordPress content. 00:10:47.465 --> 00:10:49.195 You're probably gonna make an impact. 00:10:50.110 --> 00:10:53.230 Like, if I could give the playbook for what I did, like, and I'm not saying 00:10:53.230 --> 00:10:55.820 I'm, I'm big by any means, but like, I've, I've gained a little bit of 00:10:55.820 --> 00:10:58.090 track and people know, like, I've know people now, like, and stuff like that. 00:10:58.090 --> 00:11:01.120 And like, I make content and people, I guess, appreciate it to some degree. 00:11:01.370 --> 00:11:04.720 Like, all I've done is just talk about the things that I was doing. 00:11:05.250 --> 00:11:08.130 Some of the things that I found out how to do tips and tricks here and 00:11:08.130 --> 00:11:12.480 there and then I started Exploring and learning wordpress and I was just kind 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:14.980 of documenting honestly It's kind of the way that i've always thought about 00:11:14.980 --> 00:11:19.400 just documenting my kind of my thought processes Asking questions being curious 00:11:19.620 --> 00:11:21.890 and people really start to appreciate that because a lot of people have the 00:11:21.890 --> 00:11:25.500 same questions And there's just a lot of people out there that are not ever going 00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:29.490 to be content creators so to speak because that's just not what they want to do 00:11:29.860 --> 00:11:33.200 like There's there's a more meta thing. 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:37.825 I don't know how deep you want to go into it here You I think everyone, like, 00:11:37.825 --> 00:11:41.875 could potentially start making content, but the trouble is, like, I truly 00:11:41.875 --> 00:11:45.955 believe that not everyone, not everyone is a content creator, necessarily. 00:11:45.955 --> 00:11:48.345 You know, like, that might just not be the case for some people. 00:11:48.345 --> 00:11:51.305 And not only that, maybe some people are really good on video. 00:11:51.785 --> 00:11:55.375 You know me, I literally hate to read, so it's like, I'm not gonna 00:11:55.385 --> 00:11:58.245 sit there and write a bunch of stuff, I'd much rather just talk like this. 00:11:58.245 --> 00:12:00.245 But other people are totally different, and maybe they'd rather, 00:12:00.245 --> 00:12:03.145 like, write a million words and never want to get in front of a camera. 00:12:03.145 --> 00:12:03.194 I don't know. 00:12:03.635 --> 00:12:05.485 So there's just those different types of things. 00:12:05.930 --> 00:12:09.420 and I think that all of that kind of plays into, again, back to the main 00:12:09.420 --> 00:12:13.490 question of, you can start, but sometimes you might not be starting in the thing 00:12:13.490 --> 00:12:15.280 that's best for you to continue with. 00:12:15.680 --> 00:12:18.710 And maybe you're just starting because, oh man, YouTube is like the real big 00:12:18.710 --> 00:12:21.810 thing right now, which is objectively kind of true in certain ways. 00:12:22.050 --> 00:12:25.620 But if you're not built for video and you don't want to get better at video and you 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:28.519 try to get better at video and it's not working, then maybe it's just not for you. 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:30.770 That's not your tool to leverage. 00:12:30.770 --> 00:12:34.170 Maybe it is blogging, or maybe it is podcasting, or something else, right? 00:12:34.180 --> 00:12:35.720 I mean, again, I hate video editing. 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:37.810 None of my videos, barely any of them get edited, right? 00:12:38.090 --> 00:12:41.090 So it's like, it's, it's, a lot of it is introspective, though. 00:12:41.290 --> 00:12:43.920 But at the same time, I do think anyone could be successful. 00:12:43.990 --> 00:12:47.080 Just, they gotta find, you know, where they're, where they're kind 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:49.230 of at with it, and what, what makes the most sense for them. 00:12:49.340 --> 00:12:49.620 So, 00:12:50.010 --> 00:12:53.610 Matt: Do you think, do you, like time wise, like where, where do you feel 00:12:53.620 --> 00:12:58.900 like, did you have any, goal or what was your perspective on, like how 00:12:58.900 --> 00:13:02.950 long it would have taken you to get to, you know, grow this audience that 00:13:02.950 --> 00:13:04.760 you've, that you've accumulated so far? 00:13:04.760 --> 00:13:06.110 Is it faster than you thought? 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:06.660 Shorter? 00:13:06.660 --> 00:13:08.010 Like what, what, what, what's your thoughts? 00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:13.766 Mark: I would say, I would say that it has gone better than I, I 00:13:13.766 --> 00:13:16.955 would say it's going better than I actually expected, probably slightly 00:13:16.955 --> 00:13:19.495 worse than I like, quoted on myself. 00:13:19.495 --> 00:13:22.575 Like I had like a random arbitrary goal of like 10, 000 subs by the 00:13:22.575 --> 00:13:23.625 end of the year or something. 00:13:23.685 --> 00:13:25.205 I mean, I meant like for something. 00:13:25.425 --> 00:13:28.655 But I'm not even saying that's like the right metric to even 00:13:28.655 --> 00:13:29.765 go by or anything like that. 00:13:29.765 --> 00:13:31.075 Like there's so many different things there. 00:13:31.075 --> 00:13:33.195 If you're talking specifically YouTube, there's a lot of stuff there. 00:13:33.635 --> 00:13:39.140 I would say it's going better than I actually expected because Of 00:13:39.150 --> 00:13:40.450 the other things that I've done. 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:44.070 So if, I mean, again, if we're talking playbook for content creators, you 00:13:44.110 --> 00:13:49.390 have to be like a type of person that wants to grow and, and is actually 00:13:49.390 --> 00:13:52.530 curious about what you're talking about before this WordPress, but I 00:13:52.530 --> 00:13:55.110 was always involved in like WordPress, but before I actually dove into this. 00:13:55.490 --> 00:13:58.620 I was very scattered and I didn't really like, I didn't have like a 00:13:58.620 --> 00:14:00.240 niche or a community whatsoever. 00:14:00.260 --> 00:14:03.590 And then when I started making content about WordPress, it's like, okay, now they 00:14:03.590 --> 00:14:05.720 know that Mark Szymanski is WordPress. 00:14:05.760 --> 00:14:08.890 Or like, you know, like it has, you know, those are, those are assimilated 00:14:08.890 --> 00:14:10.300 to some sort of like, those are related. 00:14:10.490 --> 00:14:14.540 Rather than Mark making random videos about like business, finance, home 00:14:14.540 --> 00:14:16.610 remote, like whatever the, whatever the hell I was doing before, right? 00:14:17.030 --> 00:14:25.770 So my, to, to, to like what I've done is, You have to be on, if you want to do it, 00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:30.000 at least one strategy is like very boots on the ground, so to speak, like you're 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:34.210 making content and you're also like on X, like following people and talking to 00:14:34.210 --> 00:14:35.990 people and getting in a conversation. 00:14:36.250 --> 00:14:41.040 You're potentially in the make slack group, like doing stuff there. 00:14:41.050 --> 00:14:43.590 You're in the WP minutes slack, like talking to people there, like 00:14:43.590 --> 00:14:44.910 you just have to make connections. 00:14:44.910 --> 00:14:48.920 My mother used to always tell me, it's all about who you know and you gotta 00:14:48.920 --> 00:14:49.980 be networking, networking, networking. 00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:50.129 Okay. 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.270 That's, it makes total sense now, but it didn't make any sense when like you 00:14:54.270 --> 00:14:56.050 don't have somewhere to network worth. 00:14:56.050 --> 00:14:57.890 You can't network with 7 billion people. 00:14:57.890 --> 00:15:00.730 You got to network with the people that like are actually 00:15:00.730 --> 00:15:03.330 going to move you forward and help you and you can help them. 00:15:03.700 --> 00:15:07.000 So that, I mean, I've just made so many good connections and again, I 00:15:07.010 --> 00:15:08.720 think that's a skill in and of itself. 00:15:08.850 --> 00:15:10.380 You've got to be able to build rapport with people. 00:15:10.380 --> 00:15:12.520 You've got to be an actual genuine, authentic person. 00:15:12.530 --> 00:15:14.570 You can't be like a slimy, you know, bastard. 00:15:14.570 --> 00:15:18.650 Like you have to actually want to, to, to help people as well as 00:15:18.660 --> 00:15:19.750 like have other people help you. 00:15:20.300 --> 00:15:23.330 So, I understand that that's like not necessarily directly related 00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:26.170 to making content, but it is like a huge thing that's a part of it 00:15:26.170 --> 00:15:27.900 because that's what making content is. 00:15:27.910 --> 00:15:30.190 Like even connecting with your audience, you know, if you're going to start a 00:15:30.190 --> 00:15:33.860 community or offer a service or a product to them, you have to understand them. 00:15:34.170 --> 00:15:35.210 And we're humans. 00:15:35.210 --> 00:15:38.290 We normally understand stuff by communicating and observing and all that. 00:15:38.290 --> 00:15:41.740 So I would say, again, to answer your question with a long winded answer, 00:15:42.330 --> 00:15:47.250 concisely, I would say that you have to, it's gone a little bit faster because 00:15:47.250 --> 00:15:51.040 I feel like I've kind of like, made it go faster because of those efforts. 00:15:51.070 --> 00:15:53.230 And if you don't do any of that, and you're not connecting with anybody, 00:15:53.230 --> 00:15:55.490 and you're just making videos, you might see yourself being like, why 00:15:55.490 --> 00:15:56.600 am I not getting more traction? 00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:58.390 It's like, the people don't, they can't connect with you. 00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:00.810 Like, if they connect with you, then they, they, they're going to care 00:16:00.810 --> 00:16:01.880 more about the stuff you're saying. 00:16:01.990 --> 00:16:03.800 Like, it's, it's human nature, I feel like. 00:16:04.055 --> 00:16:04.275 Matt: Yeah. 00:16:04.275 --> 00:16:06.775 I have a cynical outlook on it. 00:16:06.975 --> 00:16:10.534 Mark: I'd love to hear it. 00:16:10.570 --> 00:16:12.200 Matt: like, it's, it's a blessing and a curse. 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:16.950 The, the WordPress community, especially for content creators, because you know, 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:24.570 on one hand, like outside of our world, WordPress and they're just like, like 00:16:24.570 --> 00:16:28.400 what, like what, what, what kind of content could you possibly be creating? 00:16:28.400 --> 00:16:31.760 And like, what kind of reach, what kind of audience could you possibly have? 00:16:32.260 --> 00:16:36.130 You know, if you went like full on, just like web design in general, like 00:16:36.130 --> 00:16:41.160 a general web design is, or a general online e commerce person or drop ship 00:16:41.170 --> 00:16:47.410 company like this, the, the audience for WordPress is, is so small relative 00:16:47.410 --> 00:16:48.970 to like other hot topics in the space. 00:16:48.970 --> 00:16:52.700 Like generally like in the tech and business stuff, not like pop culture, 00:16:53.010 --> 00:16:56.340 but like in that, in those categories that are like adjacent to us. 00:16:56.910 --> 00:16:57.280 but. 00:16:57.800 --> 00:17:03.250 Interior to WordPress people, there, there is a lot of content being 00:17:03.250 --> 00:17:05.440 made, for the WordPress crowd. 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:10.160 And I think from the audience perspective, like looking for something new, right? 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.740 So like, and I'm not saying this is what happened to you, but maybe part 00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:17.605 of it is like, there's this of, Oh, there's a new guy out there, a new 00:17:17.615 --> 00:17:19.235 gal out there doing a YouTube channel. 00:17:19.235 --> 00:17:20.045 Let me tune into them. 00:17:20.675 --> 00:17:22.395 I just want something fresh and new. 00:17:23.045 --> 00:17:26.215 I'm sick and tired of hearing from like Matt Madaris in the WP minute. 00:17:26.215 --> 00:17:27.485 Cause I've been listening to him for 10 years. 00:17:27.555 --> 00:17:28.755 I need something new. 00:17:29.115 --> 00:17:31.415 and then there's like, it's a weird formula. 00:17:31.415 --> 00:17:33.545 It's a weird dynamic because you come in and you're talking 00:17:33.555 --> 00:17:35.535 bricks and that's popular. 00:17:35.535 --> 00:17:40.695 So now it's like you have like this, this, Popular like tool that you use 00:17:40.695 --> 00:17:42.405 and and people are excited for it. 00:17:42.405 --> 00:17:44.815 And then there's a fresh new guy Demonstrating the 00:17:44.815 --> 00:17:46.125 stuff and talking about it. 00:17:46.455 --> 00:17:53.305 So then you get those like sweet spot of you know a content rush And inside 00:17:53.305 --> 00:18:00.495 that WordPress world, it's it's pretty Competitive Kind of mean it in the in 00:18:00.495 --> 00:18:05.865 the literal sense, but also like like people are just like, okay, I've, I've 00:18:05.865 --> 00:18:07.345 got my fill of Mark for the month. 00:18:08.225 --> 00:18:12.665 Let me move on, you know, to, you know, something else like, okay, he, I liked it. 00:18:12.685 --> 00:18:18.595 He was for me, but just like if you look, zoom out and you look at how you tune into 00:18:18.595 --> 00:18:23.205 your favorite podcast or your favorite shows produced by, you know, big names 00:18:23.225 --> 00:18:27.695 or at least, you know, big, industries, you don't listen to every single one. 00:18:27.755 --> 00:18:29.395 Like I love the bill Burr podcast. 00:18:29.825 --> 00:18:30.225 Love it. 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:34.170 I don't get every, I don't listen to every single one, but it is, it is 00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:38.360 still like, I still regard it as one of my favorite podcasts to tune into and 00:18:38.360 --> 00:18:39.680 it's just him talking into his phone. 00:18:39.930 --> 00:18:41.450 It literally is what he does. 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:43.990 but I don't tune into every single episode. 00:18:44.420 --> 00:18:50.300 So it's, it's this weird thing that happens inside of WordPress where all of 00:18:50.300 --> 00:18:54.430 a sudden you can get like this meteoric rise, air quotes, and then all of a sudden 00:18:54.430 --> 00:18:55.550 it's like, wait, where did everybody go? 00:18:55.550 --> 00:18:56.860 Like I'm on this plateau. 00:18:56.860 --> 00:18:58.390 Like, how do I get to the next step? 00:18:58.985 --> 00:19:02.235 And I think that's where we as content creators have to be cautious 00:19:02.235 --> 00:19:04.715 of that, because I've, I felt it. 00:19:04.755 --> 00:19:05.765 I feel it every day. 00:19:05.765 --> 00:19:07.765 It's like, man, I, I have this YouTube channel. 00:19:07.965 --> 00:19:11.695 If I just kept doing YouTube, it would have been like five times, you know, 00:19:12.015 --> 00:19:15.800 greater than, you Then this podcast and blog that I've been doing, you know, this 00:19:15.810 --> 00:19:19.820 traditional podcast and blog that I've been doing, you know, so I've seen it sort 00:19:19.820 --> 00:19:24.190 of like that, that content tilt, or that audience tilt, like what they're tuning 00:19:24.190 --> 00:19:25.930 into and like where the industry is going. 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:28.010 you know, again, I don't have a direct thing there. 00:19:28.010 --> 00:19:30.270 It's just a lot of thoughts on like in that space. 00:19:30.520 --> 00:19:34.930 We're lucky for the WordPress community, but at the same time, it can, it can 00:19:34.930 --> 00:19:36.420 make us hit a plateau pretty quick. 00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:39.310 And we're like, where the hell did everybody go and why aren't 00:19:39.310 --> 00:19:40.380 they paying attention anymore? 00:19:40.985 --> 00:19:41.295 Mark: Yeah. 00:19:41.630 --> 00:19:42.120 Matt: If that makes 00:19:42.260 --> 00:19:43.320 Mark: So no, it does. 00:19:43.610 --> 00:19:44.600 I definitely have a couple things. 00:19:44.610 --> 00:19:44.770 Okay. 00:19:44.770 --> 00:19:48.460 So the first thing is like you're 100 accurate there too on the pieces that that 00:19:48.460 --> 00:19:53.050 you added there Like for me again as my case study goes Yeah, I did come in kind 00:19:53.050 --> 00:19:56.310 of like with some bricks content, which is like on the rise, you know Like as I 00:19:56.310 --> 00:19:59.110 was coming in and everything like that, so that definitely helped me I think 00:19:59.120 --> 00:20:02.590 me being young definitely helps me to some degree because again It's more just 00:20:02.710 --> 00:20:04.420 like a fresh perspective on it as well. 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:05.320 Probably a little bit. 00:20:05.670 --> 00:20:07.230 Out of the ordinary to some degree. 00:20:07.230 --> 00:20:11.055 Like I said, I mean, I feel like i've I've seen a lot of a lot of a lot of 00:20:11.055 --> 00:20:14.795 wisdom in this in this community And i'm like one of the younger dudes that 00:20:14.795 --> 00:20:18.115 are just kind of like Learning and also kind of providing some perspective. 00:20:18.115 --> 00:20:20.665 So I do think that probably helped and i've thought about what you're 00:20:20.665 --> 00:20:25.645 saying here a ton when you're hot you need to capitalize on it Like you 00:20:25.645 --> 00:20:30.335 can't let you can't let the attention or the views or whatever like kind 00:20:30.335 --> 00:20:32.735 of You can't miss that opportunity. 00:20:32.885 --> 00:20:36.925 And i've had this happen in other like sequences of my, of my 00:20:36.925 --> 00:20:39.645 past, like content creation stuff outside of the WordPress thing. 00:20:39.795 --> 00:20:41.595 It's just opportunities though, is really what it is. 00:20:41.595 --> 00:20:47.315 It's like, it's like hitting like a, a viral video or like a viral topic per say 00:20:47.615 --> 00:20:49.365 at the current time where it all lines up. 00:20:49.365 --> 00:20:51.585 And I think if you have enough of those, you know, you continue 00:20:51.585 --> 00:20:54.575 to kind of like scale, I guess to some degree, but you do have to 00:20:54.585 --> 00:20:55.855 take advantage of that opportunity. 00:20:55.855 --> 00:21:00.335 So I've already thought of like, well, you know, Should I, should I start like 00:21:00.335 --> 00:21:03.865 more of a community thing or should I offer some sort of a service product 00:21:03.865 --> 00:21:06.845 or something like that and you know, it's just really, again though, you 00:21:06.845 --> 00:21:10.915 have to listen to the people but I, but I, but the thing I'll say is about the 00:21:10.915 --> 00:21:17.845 plateauing, this is partially experience, partially speculation or just a theory 00:21:17.845 --> 00:21:22.949 here, is the thing that you can't do as you go through that is you can't it. 00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:25.660 We as content creators are providing value. 00:21:25.690 --> 00:21:30.360 There's no doubt about it, but it is very like Intangible so it's like if there's a 00:21:30.360 --> 00:21:35.520 way that we can provide something that is more tangible and is like more impactful 00:21:35.550 --> 00:21:40.910 and more valuable that is how the people are gonna have a less likelihood of like 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:45.920 forgetting about you so to speak and There's many different ways to do that. 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.430 The trouble is you just need to like try them or try one and 00:21:48.430 --> 00:21:49.520 see what sticks or whatever. 00:21:49.770 --> 00:21:51.610 And that's kind of really where I'm at right now. 00:21:51.610 --> 00:21:55.150 But I'm like so observant of all the other people that are in the space, like 00:21:55.150 --> 00:21:57.940 doing it and like kind of what I see like is working, what I think resonates with 00:21:57.950 --> 00:21:59.230 me, what resonates with other people. 00:21:59.810 --> 00:22:02.410 so again, going back to the playbook thing, like that's, those are the 00:22:02.420 --> 00:22:05.870 things I would be thinking about as I would be like starting, create content, 00:22:06.060 --> 00:22:09.710 watching to see how it's growing, seeing what people are saying and then how 00:22:09.710 --> 00:22:12.810 to kind of leverage some of that and capitalize on some of those opportunities. 00:22:12.830 --> 00:22:18.890 without being, my personal opinion, like, just like, almost a sellout 00:22:18.890 --> 00:22:20.090 per se, you know what I mean? 00:22:20.090 --> 00:22:23.640 Like, you still, you still have to be authentic, because that's the other way. 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:25.090 You could go too far with that. 00:22:25.935 --> 00:22:30.125 With the opportunity capitalization and you could just be doing things simply 00:22:30.125 --> 00:22:33.275 for the money and then that could also backfire the money or, you know, the 00:22:33.275 --> 00:22:34.895 opportunity, whatever, whatever, X, Y, Z. 00:22:35.235 --> 00:22:37.905 And then you could also backfire because people will just be like, 00:22:37.985 --> 00:22:41.145 at a certain point, like you could have a million viewers on a YouTube 00:22:41.145 --> 00:22:42.525 channel but have no community. 00:22:42.705 --> 00:22:44.435 Like that's, like that's very possible. 00:22:44.585 --> 00:22:46.175 So it really depends too on what you want. 00:22:46.435 --> 00:22:49.015 You know, so the, you know, there's a lot of nuance in this conversation, 00:22:49.015 --> 00:22:51.695 but that's, that's what I've seen from not just WordPress all over. 00:22:52.025 --> 00:22:54.445 Matt: Yeah, I was thinking about that actually this morning, or yesterday 00:22:54.445 --> 00:22:56.315 when I saw, do you know Peter McKinnon? 00:22:56.715 --> 00:22:57.395 He's a 00:22:58.025 --> 00:23:00.305 Mark: Yeah, I don't watch them too often, but yeah, I've seen them in the 00:23:00.405 --> 00:23:04.425 Matt: So like when I was just like really spending a lot more time and in YouTube 00:23:04.425 --> 00:23:07.695 and getting more serious about it and like doing more, you know, filmic stuff. 00:23:08.005 --> 00:23:10.035 I was learning how to edit and whatnot. 00:23:10.045 --> 00:23:12.295 He was somebody who's just doing tutorials all the time. 00:23:12.295 --> 00:23:12.355 Yeah. 00:23:12.355 --> 00:23:16.655 I had some great tutorials on, when I was using Adobe Premiere and I was 00:23:16.655 --> 00:23:19.885 learning a lot from him, color grading, editing, yada, yada, yada, transitions. 00:23:20.045 --> 00:23:21.075 And it was fun and entertaining. 00:23:21.075 --> 00:23:23.375 And then he started to, you know, broaden, broaden out and 00:23:23.375 --> 00:23:24.515 start doing more product reviews. 00:23:25.035 --> 00:23:26.425 And I've fallen off. 00:23:26.715 --> 00:23:29.525 And then I know he's doing like collabs with Casey Neistat and other YouTubers. 00:23:29.525 --> 00:23:33.425 And he really went from like sub, you know, I don't know, sub 200, 000 to 00:23:33.585 --> 00:23:35.415 over 7 million, you know, at this point. 00:23:35.735 --> 00:23:39.545 but he literally has just become at, for me anyway, in my perspective, 00:23:39.885 --> 00:23:44.665 he has just become just another, like, influencer brand person. 00:23:45.045 --> 00:23:48.005 Lewis Howes is like the same, it has the same effect on me. 00:23:48.005 --> 00:23:49.665 Like I, I knew him personally. 00:23:49.665 --> 00:23:52.765 I worked on WordPress websites with him way back in the day. 00:23:53.135 --> 00:23:58.375 but now it's just like, it's just a brand to either like sell Canon cameras, 00:23:58.595 --> 00:24:02.615 or his Peter McKinnon specifically sell Canon cameras or, the Peter 00:24:02.615 --> 00:24:06.625 McKinnon backpack, or I just saw him launch like this new, like film holder 00:24:06.625 --> 00:24:10.065 thing, like this high end premium, like just traditional film holder case. 00:24:10.425 --> 00:24:12.165 And it's just like, all right, man, like I don't even see you 00:24:12.165 --> 00:24:14.635 do any original content anymore. 00:24:14.635 --> 00:24:16.835 Like you're not connecting with the audience anymore. 00:24:16.835 --> 00:24:18.635 Like you used to with through your tutorials. 00:24:19.005 --> 00:24:20.215 and he used to do like photo reviews. 00:24:20.335 --> 00:24:22.385 Now it's just like you've grown so big that people just 00:24:22.405 --> 00:24:24.795 leverage you for that like brand. 00:24:25.215 --> 00:24:27.735 And I don't think we'll ever see anybody like that in the 00:24:28.075 --> 00:24:29.975 WordPress space specifically. 00:24:30.355 --> 00:24:35.625 you know, the, the closest one in like web design web world that I can think 00:24:35.625 --> 00:24:40.755 of is, is maybe Chris Doe from, the future, in like his brand, but he's 00:24:40.755 --> 00:24:44.825 still very much like, you know, leading community and doing all that stuff. 00:24:44.825 --> 00:24:47.335 So he's still very like, you know, rolling up his sleeves and doing the work. 00:24:47.365 --> 00:24:48.845 I don't think we'll ever see that in WordPress. 00:24:49.715 --> 00:24:54.835 However, I, you know, I don't mind the wordpress creator, it's a bit 00:24:54.835 --> 00:24:58.185 of a tangent, but I don't mind the wordpress creator that does a brand 00:24:58.185 --> 00:25:03.855 deal for the money, as long as you're like transparent and you're up front 00:25:03.855 --> 00:25:07.475 about it, and you actually, and you actually like the product, right? 00:25:07.575 --> 00:25:08.715 Mark: we got to talk about the money part. 00:25:08.715 --> 00:25:09.105 Yeah, keep 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:09.490 Matt: Yeah. 00:25:09.490 --> 00:25:12.850 Like, as long as you like, like the product and you're not, you're not 00:25:12.860 --> 00:25:17.060 selling something scammy or like reviewing something scammy, but I don't 00:25:17.060 --> 00:25:20.170 know, like if, you know, any other like piece of software that you're 00:25:20.190 --> 00:25:22.740 like, I'm right now I have screen studio in front of me, which is a 00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:25.690 recording app, on Mac for screencasts. 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.790 I only use it when I have like a really short screencast that I 00:25:28.790 --> 00:25:31.590 want to do, cause not the greatest, like a long form editing tool. 00:25:31.870 --> 00:25:35.185 However, like if they came to me and We would we would love 00:25:35.195 --> 00:25:36.705 to do a sponsored video for you. 00:25:37.075 --> 00:25:41.905 I would do it And you know present it to the audience because in my audience there 00:25:41.905 --> 00:25:45.125 are other content creators out there, so I would find it useful Descriptor 00:25:45.795 --> 00:25:48.785 you know something like that something tangentially related to the work that we 00:25:48.785 --> 00:25:54.275 do You know so I don't mind if somebody is going for the money as long as it's 00:25:54.275 --> 00:25:57.685 honest You know truthful, and you believe in whatever it is that you're promoting 00:25:58.335 --> 00:26:00.635 Mark: Yeah, so, this goes back to the thing where I was talking 00:26:00.635 --> 00:26:03.645 about like having a brand versus you're just running with your name. 00:26:03.725 --> 00:26:05.195 So there's some relation there. 00:26:05.245 --> 00:26:07.935 the, the, the beautiful part about doing your name is because humans 00:26:07.935 --> 00:26:09.545 connect with humans very, very easily. 00:26:09.985 --> 00:26:14.920 I mean, you just, I'm creating videos on my name and it's like, People look 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:16.730 at me and they, they can watch me. 00:26:16.730 --> 00:26:19.320 They don't like hate anything instinctually just like 00:26:19.320 --> 00:26:20.320 about like what I'm doing. 00:26:20.520 --> 00:26:22.630 Then, you know, it's, it's a very boom, boom. 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:23.500 It's like, Oh, I know Mark. 00:26:23.500 --> 00:26:23.670 Yeah. 00:26:23.670 --> 00:26:24.290 I watch them all the time. 00:26:24.300 --> 00:26:25.760 Like that's like, I watch Casey Neistat. 00:26:25.760 --> 00:26:28.340 I watch, you know, it's like, it's a very, very connecting thing. 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:34.060 The problem or the potential con with that is if you, you only get one name, let's 00:26:34.060 --> 00:26:35.320 change it, but you only get one name. 00:26:35.510 --> 00:26:38.600 So you have to be very cognizant of the integrity portion of that. 00:26:38.950 --> 00:26:41.700 And certainly people make mistakes and you, you know, certain mistakes you can 00:26:41.890 --> 00:26:43.460 apologize for or whatever, or fix up. 00:26:43.470 --> 00:26:43.620 But. 00:26:44.025 --> 00:26:47.845 But my thing is regarding this, like, I do agree with what you're saying, I 00:26:47.845 --> 00:26:51.705 don't have a problem, I have affiliate links, I'm doing sponsorships, I make 00:26:51.705 --> 00:26:54.565 sure that I'm transparent as possible, I think everybody should have like an 00:26:54.565 --> 00:26:59.295 affiliate and sponsorship policy, like, on their website or something, because 00:26:59.295 --> 00:27:01.755 I think that's a really good way to just be like, Hey, if you don't like 00:27:01.755 --> 00:27:03.755 what I'm doing, I'm telling you every single time, if you're like giving me 00:27:03.755 --> 00:27:06.385 shit for it, just go over here and look at this, and this is exactly what I 00:27:06.385 --> 00:27:09.065 believe, and this is exactly who I take money from, who I don't take money from. 00:27:09.390 --> 00:27:10.610 and my policy on that. 00:27:10.820 --> 00:27:12.700 So a lot of things that I've seen, like really good ones 00:27:12.700 --> 00:27:14.860 that I've kind of compiled and I'm working on one for myself. 00:27:14.860 --> 00:27:17.410 So like, those types of things I think are really good. 00:27:17.770 --> 00:27:23.490 and then to bring it into the money conversation, we, we cannot be, you, 00:27:23.490 --> 00:27:26.151 you, you gotta, like anybody that criticizes this, you gotta be careful 00:27:26.151 --> 00:27:30.196 being like, like extremely emotional or holier than thou on any of these 00:27:30.196 --> 00:27:33.920 arguments because this takes a lot of time, regardless if you like the 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:36.150 content, you don't like the content, where you stand on a content creator. 00:27:36.150 --> 00:27:36.210 Thank you. 00:27:36.540 --> 00:27:38.620 Most content takes a long time to produce. 00:27:38.770 --> 00:27:41.680 Like, yeah, you could just put it up and not edit it or whatever. 00:27:41.690 --> 00:27:43.080 It's at least taking time, though. 00:27:43.080 --> 00:27:45.530 Like, it's at least taking half an hour, an hour, whatever. 00:27:45.670 --> 00:27:48.610 If you edit, you do any post production, pre planning, I mean, 00:27:48.610 --> 00:27:49.880 that's a, that's a lot of work. 00:27:49.910 --> 00:27:52.500 Like, it, it is not, if you're thinking about getting into content, 00:27:52.520 --> 00:27:54.070 it is not, like, an easy thing. 00:27:54.320 --> 00:27:57.300 It's easier if you like it, if you're interested in it, if you're curious in it. 00:27:57.580 --> 00:27:58.900 But it's not, it's not, like, easy. 00:27:58.900 --> 00:28:00.430 It's not like you just snap your fingers and it's done. 00:28:00.430 --> 00:28:01.090 It is a job. 00:28:01.490 --> 00:28:02.780 So, what does that mean? 00:28:02.790 --> 00:28:06.020 That either means you need to get paid from the content directly somehow, 00:28:06.310 --> 00:28:10.210 Sponsorships, affiliates, partnerships, whatever, brand deals, which is all fine. 00:28:10.210 --> 00:28:12.930 Again, as long as those other things are taken care of transparency and all that. 00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:17.030 But the other thing though, and I'll cite like an Alex Hermosi. 00:28:17.350 --> 00:28:17.780 Yeah, sure. 00:28:17.780 --> 00:28:21.050 He like makes money possibly from the content ad room or something like that. 00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:24.810 But your other model is like, you're, you're, the content is like, kind of 00:28:24.810 --> 00:28:26.510 like a lead magnet to a certain degree. 00:28:26.740 --> 00:28:29.640 But you have to make sure that the people watching the content are the people that 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:30.790 are actually going to be your customers. 00:28:30.800 --> 00:28:34.300 And it is, the reason this goes back to WordPress is because it's kind 00:28:34.300 --> 00:28:36.560 of like not the case a lot of times. 00:28:36.770 --> 00:28:39.670 Because the stuff that I'm saying per se, or the stuff like you're saying 00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:43.080 Matt, is like, Okay, well we're telling people how to use WordPress. 00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:46.160 Now certainly some beginners might pick that up, but a lot of developers and like 00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:47.470 agency owners are going to pick it up. 00:28:47.700 --> 00:28:49.190 And then it's like, they watched it, that's great, 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:50.180 they love us, that's awesome. 00:28:51.025 --> 00:28:52.045 How are we going to get money from them? 00:28:52.095 --> 00:28:52.395 You know what I mean? 00:28:52.445 --> 00:28:55.345 Like just as any, I, that was too, too straight up of a way to say that, 00:28:55.345 --> 00:28:58.605 but I'm saying like, it's not like they're really our ideal customer 00:28:58.615 --> 00:28:59.895 unless we have an offer for them. 00:29:00.105 --> 00:29:02.605 If you're an agency owner, then you need to be making content. 00:29:02.605 --> 00:29:04.755 There's people that do this really well, but there's, you need to be 00:29:04.755 --> 00:29:08.565 making more content for like why you need a website or that type of thing. 00:29:08.835 --> 00:29:10.305 So you got to be cognizant of that. 00:29:10.355 --> 00:29:11.955 I am definitely not a poster child for that. 00:29:11.955 --> 00:29:15.515 I'm in a different phase right now with some of that stuff, but those are the meta 00:29:15.515 --> 00:29:20.095 things of like, Making content, actually taking the time to do it properly and 00:29:20.095 --> 00:29:23.375 everything like that, and then making money from it in one, two, you know, 00:29:23.425 --> 00:29:25.015 way one, two, or three, or whatever. 00:29:25.385 --> 00:29:27.985 so there's a lot of, a lot of things to consider there as you 00:29:27.985 --> 00:29:29.145 continue to go through that. 00:29:29.550 --> 00:29:34.390 Matt: Yeah, you and I talked about this stuff offline a lot about like, how, how 00:29:34.390 --> 00:29:38.490 are you going to monetize your content and you know, what are the advantages 00:29:38.500 --> 00:29:42.110 of, you know, direct sponsorship like I do versus affiliates versus the 00:29:42.110 --> 00:29:43.580 membership stuff and product stuff. 00:29:43.850 --> 00:29:44.740 I've tried them all. 00:29:45.690 --> 00:29:46.860 I've tried them all literally. 00:29:47.140 --> 00:29:51.530 And, the only one that I, I'm, I'm effective at is the, is the 00:29:51.530 --> 00:29:54.400 direct sponsorship sale, like going in front of somebody and saying, 00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:57.080 look, I'm My audience trusts me. 00:29:57.360 --> 00:30:01.950 You can see my body of work over a decade and if you want this kind of stuff to 00:30:01.950 --> 00:30:07.230 continue and want your brand to align your like your brand sentiment or synergy 00:30:07.230 --> 00:30:10.680 to align with the stuff that I'm doing, then this is why you should support me. 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.810 It's not, it's not your typical, you know, pay per click play. 00:30:14.990 --> 00:30:16.750 It's not, you know, am I going to make 1. 00:30:16.750 --> 00:30:20.400 25 with every dollar that I spend with Matt and the WP minute. 00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:24.380 It is not that because the audience isn't that, isn't that large and I do 00:30:24.380 --> 00:30:28.935 want to talk about, you know, Why that's good and why that's bad is because 00:30:28.935 --> 00:30:32.415 you do have what's good because you have that sort of editorial control. 00:30:32.795 --> 00:30:35.385 you know, and it does keep that integrity and that trust really 00:30:35.405 --> 00:30:36.725 locked in with the audience. 00:30:37.035 --> 00:30:42.105 the bad is like when you get in front of, you know, a new web host, I won't 00:30:42.225 --> 00:30:45.385 name names, but a lot of like up and coming, you know, new web hosts 00:30:45.385 --> 00:30:46.355 or, you know, knock on the door. 00:30:46.355 --> 00:30:49.955 They want to do this thing, but they're really in the mode of like growth and 00:30:49.965 --> 00:30:51.395 how do we just get more customers? 00:30:51.395 --> 00:30:53.975 So when I talk to them or any product, does it have to be hosting like 00:30:54.005 --> 00:30:58.165 plugins, themes, services, whatever, like they're in this growth mode. 00:30:58.175 --> 00:31:00.735 So they immediately just have like this budget and they're like, all 00:31:00.745 --> 00:31:02.075 right, we got 5, 000 to spend. 00:31:02.075 --> 00:31:04.375 Like, how are we going to make 5, 500? 00:31:04.605 --> 00:31:06.965 It's like, well, it's not going to happen here, right? 00:31:06.975 --> 00:31:10.425 This is, you know, supporting independent journalism more. 00:31:10.715 --> 00:31:13.325 Call it independent journalism, public radio, like whatever 00:31:13.335 --> 00:31:14.475 moniker you want to throw at it. 00:31:14.775 --> 00:31:15.975 that's what this is. 00:31:16.195 --> 00:31:20.005 because not many people, you know, do the deep dive stuff, that I do. 00:31:20.155 --> 00:31:23.925 Which, again, the other edge of that sword is, eh, there's 00:31:23.925 --> 00:31:25.505 not a huge audience for it. 00:31:25.825 --> 00:31:27.755 It's a very, impactful audience. 00:31:27.845 --> 00:31:29.415 It's a very important audience. 00:31:29.745 --> 00:31:33.055 they're the decision makers in the, in the community and other business 00:31:33.055 --> 00:31:36.685 owners and who are also affecting, influencing other, other folks. 00:31:36.985 --> 00:31:39.965 but they're not like spending their dollars per se. 00:31:40.295 --> 00:31:44.315 because they're deep rooted or they have their own solutions or, you know, 00:31:44.315 --> 00:31:45.735 they're just, you know, already there. 00:31:45.735 --> 00:31:47.115 They're a mature audience. 00:31:47.125 --> 00:31:51.850 You're not, you're not giving them or, or, or, or, Influencing them to 00:31:51.850 --> 00:31:54.990 pick your thing because it's, you know, bright and shiny and it's, 00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:56.400 it's faster, cheaper, whatever. 00:31:56.850 --> 00:32:01.010 you know, one of the things that I've, I'm, I put in the footer of my, you know, 00:32:01.020 --> 00:32:06.180 newsletter today is, which hasn't gone out yet, is the fact, like, every, I feel like 00:32:06.180 --> 00:32:10.800 every summer, you know, Always adjusting, like every, I feel like summertime 00:32:10.800 --> 00:32:12.740 for me is, is that adjustment level? 00:32:12.740 --> 00:32:15.740 It's probably usually because, you know, taking vacations more, spending 00:32:15.750 --> 00:32:17.710 more time, you know, with the kids, cause they're not in school. 00:32:17.710 --> 00:32:20.780 So I start thinking about like, where's this thing going and then 00:32:20.780 --> 00:32:25.280 ramping up for like that seasonality push, which is heading into whatever 00:32:25.280 --> 00:32:27.570 fall holidays, yada, yada, yada. 00:32:27.570 --> 00:32:30.310 And you're like getting yourself into that reset mode of like, how am I 00:32:30.310 --> 00:32:34.500 going to push when the summer ends before the holidays hit so that I can 00:32:34.510 --> 00:32:35.900 like make an impact on the business. 00:32:36.360 --> 00:32:38.730 And, So anyway, like I'm thinking about like restructuring. 00:32:38.730 --> 00:32:42.290 And when I started the WP minute, the idea was like, Oh, I just want to do short 00:32:42.300 --> 00:32:44.280 form because everyone was doing long form. 00:32:44.730 --> 00:32:48.610 And, you know, I just thought it as a different market opportunity to 00:32:48.650 --> 00:32:53.180 come out with something short form and also give myself a break with air 00:32:53.180 --> 00:32:57.040 quotes that a break to not have to do so much heavy lifting of, of content. 00:32:57.360 --> 00:33:00.790 and it just parlayed into like this bigger thing, of course, but 00:33:00.790 --> 00:33:03.330 now just like reevaluating that and be like, you know what, this 00:33:03.510 --> 00:33:05.610 deep dive into the community stuff. 00:33:06.525 --> 00:33:09.925 the stress that I put on myself every single week to come up with a 00:33:09.935 --> 00:33:13.295 five minute monologue, which seems like, Oh, it should be pretty easy. 00:33:13.375 --> 00:33:16.415 And it is, it's easy when, when there's a lot of stuff happening. 00:33:16.525 --> 00:33:18.565 Like I joked with you, like where the hell have you been? 00:33:18.565 --> 00:33:18.765 Mark? 00:33:18.765 --> 00:33:19.235 It's been a week. 00:33:19.635 --> 00:33:22.025 You've been pretty quiet because there's not a lot of stuff happening, right? 00:33:22.025 --> 00:33:23.105 There's not a lot of things going on. 00:33:23.105 --> 00:33:24.685 We talked about everything already last week. 00:33:24.685 --> 00:33:25.995 And this week was kind of slow. 00:33:26.385 --> 00:33:28.465 and it usually is, in the summertime. 00:33:28.565 --> 00:33:32.685 So that five minutes of like pressure, to, I put on myself to 00:33:32.685 --> 00:33:33.965 like, what am I going to talk about? 00:33:33.965 --> 00:33:37.085 It's going to be super impactful that other people don't talk about. 00:33:37.465 --> 00:33:40.555 and then on the, on the flip side of that is like, man, it's like such a 00:33:40.555 --> 00:33:44.485 small audience that it almost feels like I write all this stuff and I 00:33:44.725 --> 00:33:46.585 pressure myself every week to do this. 00:33:47.185 --> 00:33:48.235 Does anyone care? 00:33:48.790 --> 00:33:49.060 Right. 00:33:49.070 --> 00:33:50.670 Versus if I put out a WordPress 6. 00:33:50.670 --> 00:33:52.670 6 video when WordPress 6. 00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:56.180 6 hits and thousands and thousands of people watch it and comments and 00:33:56.180 --> 00:33:59.730 all the stuff and it made from like the creator, like monkey brain. 00:33:59.730 --> 00:34:03.260 I'm just like, Oh, that was, that was way more satisfactory than, you 00:34:03.260 --> 00:34:07.865 know, sitting there and like, Thinking critical of like how Mullenweg should 00:34:07.865 --> 00:34:12.555 reshape automatic, you know, and what that means to, open source in the open 00:34:12.555 --> 00:34:15.505 web when people are like, I don't, I don't even want to think about that. 00:34:15.505 --> 00:34:17.135 And they just like skip the article. 00:34:17.135 --> 00:34:20.845 I was like, man, I've been like, this is years of work that I just put into this 00:34:20.905 --> 00:34:25.405 like five minutes and you don't, and you don't care about it, but from the business 00:34:25.405 --> 00:34:29.295 perspective, like I understand that that is my, you know, that's my fault. 00:34:29.525 --> 00:34:33.365 So anyway, going back to what's in the newsletter today is me just saying, look. 00:34:34.090 --> 00:34:36.890 It's maybe just like lifting this weight off my shoulders and being 00:34:36.890 --> 00:34:39.360 like, I'm not going to do that anymore. 00:34:39.660 --> 00:34:41.000 Like, I'm still going to do it. 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:42.810 Eh, it's just not going to be every week. 00:34:43.710 --> 00:34:43.910 Right? 00:34:43.910 --> 00:34:47.290 And I, and I need to say it out loud so that I'm okay with it. 00:34:47.430 --> 00:34:49.900 And so I can be like, I said I didn't, I'm not going to do it anymore. 00:34:50.490 --> 00:34:53.570 and then technically it also means like, I don't know what I'm technically going to 00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:56.730 do with the five minute WP Minute podcast. 00:34:57.370 --> 00:35:00.570 I might reroute it to the WP Minute Plus. 00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:00.620 Thanks. 00:35:01.335 --> 00:35:05.005 And rename, the whole podcast altogether for, for just like branding 00:35:05.005 --> 00:35:08.335 purposes, because what I really like are these long form discussions. 00:35:09.155 --> 00:35:13.465 And ultimately I think that's where folks know me most is, you know, the 00:35:13.465 --> 00:35:17.305 podcaster who's been here for a while talking to, to people and I, and I'm, 00:35:17.375 --> 00:35:19.085 I'm want to like lean back into that. 00:35:19.095 --> 00:35:19.715 I think. 00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:24.250 you know, cause you see these posts, the best WordPress newsletters, the best 00:35:24.260 --> 00:35:25.940 WordPress, you know, YouTube channels. 00:35:25.940 --> 00:35:27.330 You're like, man, I've been, I do all that. 00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:29.180 Like why am I not on this list? 00:35:29.470 --> 00:35:29.700 Right. 00:35:29.700 --> 00:35:33.110 But then you look at the best podcast and it's like, oh, it's Matterport WP minutes. 00:35:33.110 --> 00:35:34.970 So it's just like, okay, it's just this brand thing. 00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:38.570 People just see me as a podcaster, maybe not specifically a newsletter 00:35:38.600 --> 00:35:41.350 as much as I try, you know, to get that content out there. 00:35:41.350 --> 00:35:46.070 So summer restructuring, notice myself on that same plateau. 00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:50.460 and saying to myself, all right, it's time to shift gears because the real 00:35:50.460 --> 00:35:54.790 money, which we were talking about is in that generalized content for WordPress. 00:35:55.040 --> 00:35:59.750 It's in the YouTube tutorials, it's in the helpful content, and maybe 00:35:59.750 --> 00:36:04.980 the over analytical stuff, should be reserved for, you know, not so 00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:06.610 often, like I still want to do it. 00:36:06.790 --> 00:36:09.840 I don't want to give up on it, but I'm just not going to pressure myself to 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:12.200 like do that every single time because. 00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:16.750 Really, if I can make helpful content, it's helping more wordpressers at the end 00:36:16.750 --> 00:36:18.370 of the day, which is really what I want. 00:36:18.450 --> 00:36:21.200 Like, I really want to help people with this stuff, and maybe 00:36:21.200 --> 00:36:23.590 the over critical stuff is just too much for people to handle. 00:36:25.370 --> 00:36:29.260 Mark: I mean, it's, I feel like it's part of that conversation is just like 00:36:29.260 --> 00:36:32.130 you said, how many people actually care about those things per se? 00:36:32.130 --> 00:36:36.430 Like what is your actual, you're not going to get everyone, obviously, you're 00:36:36.430 --> 00:36:37.800 not going to get like 7 billion people. 00:36:37.810 --> 00:36:40.680 You're not going to even get all of the people that use WordPress because 00:36:40.680 --> 00:36:43.290 not all the people use WordPress care about that type of thing. 00:36:43.530 --> 00:36:46.000 So like, you know, and then you just continue to break it down. 00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.140 Like, and then even the people that do care about it. 00:36:48.875 --> 00:36:51.305 The stuff you're talking about, maybe for whatever reason they don't like 00:36:51.375 --> 00:36:53.935 you and I'm not picking on you, I'm just saying maybe they don't like you, 00:36:53.955 --> 00:36:54.925 maybe they don't like the content, 00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:55.710 Matt: It's a well known 00:36:55.865 --> 00:36:58.445 Mark: name or the name or something, you know what I mean, it's like, 00:36:58.485 --> 00:36:59.985 it's just, it's just marketing. 00:36:59.985 --> 00:37:01.035 It's just like influence. 00:37:01.035 --> 00:37:04.235 It's like, it's very, there's, there's no, there's no, sometimes 00:37:04.235 --> 00:37:05.325 there's no rhyme or reason to it. 00:37:05.325 --> 00:37:07.155 You just kind of have to like break it down to that point. 00:37:07.155 --> 00:37:12.255 It's like, I do think though that early people early on their content creation 00:37:12.255 --> 00:37:14.295 journey might have that misconception. 00:37:14.295 --> 00:37:17.230 It's important to learn that very quickly that, You have to understand, 00:37:17.230 --> 00:37:20.250 because I, I literally, I did this, and I still do this kind of in the agency 00:37:20.250 --> 00:37:26.100 realm, but in the, in the content side of it, I'm like, okay, I want like 00:37:26.100 --> 00:37:27.330 a million subscribers or whatever. 00:37:27.330 --> 00:37:29.460 Like people say, oh, we want to be like so and so, we want 00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:30.370 to have a million subscribers. 00:37:30.370 --> 00:37:33.725 Well, it's like, Depending on what you're actually interested in, and 00:37:33.725 --> 00:37:37.285 you know, somewhat qualified, so to speak, to like talk about, that 00:37:37.295 --> 00:37:39.165 might not literally be possible. 00:37:39.435 --> 00:37:41.985 So, like depending on what you're talking about, how deep you're talking 00:37:41.985 --> 00:37:44.605 about, the nuances, there might just not be a million people that give 00:37:44.605 --> 00:37:46.125 a shit about what you're saying. 00:37:46.435 --> 00:37:50.555 And the sooner you realize that, the sooner you can lean in to actually 00:37:50.585 --> 00:37:55.125 talking about what those people, and you, you and those other maybe 00:37:55.125 --> 00:37:59.055 thousand, couple hundred thousand, whatever people care about, and then 00:37:59.055 --> 00:38:00.585 that's like really kind of interesting. 00:38:00.925 --> 00:38:05.935 where that can go because in my mind, one of the things that I've seen is like, 00:38:05.955 --> 00:38:09.445 if you think about the person, like an individual, we'll just keep it as an 00:38:09.445 --> 00:38:12.335 individual, like if you think about an individual that's like classified as 00:38:12.335 --> 00:38:15.355 like an influencer, obviously that term is whatever, but like somebody that 00:38:15.535 --> 00:38:21.095 speaks a content creator or somebody that speaks online, if they say something, if 00:38:21.095 --> 00:38:24.385 they're well known enough and they say something, let's say they normally talk 00:38:24.395 --> 00:38:27.525 about like business and they say something about like relationships, relationships. 00:38:28.245 --> 00:38:31.885 Right off the bat now, because you've consumed so much content, even though 00:38:31.885 --> 00:38:35.135 it's been in the business realm, if they say something about relationships, 00:38:35.135 --> 00:38:38.645 you're automatically going to have like a higher, you're going to hold their 00:38:38.655 --> 00:38:42.135 opinion to a higher standard because of all the other stuff that you've 00:38:42.135 --> 00:38:43.675 listened to over this other category. 00:38:43.985 --> 00:38:47.965 So what, what I kind of have deduced that is I used to try to be 00:38:47.965 --> 00:38:49.955 really generalist about the stuff. 00:38:49.985 --> 00:38:52.935 Like, I have really good opinions about this topic and this rather, 00:38:53.085 --> 00:38:54.395 rather random topic and this one. 00:38:55.155 --> 00:38:58.255 Because I'm interested in I'm a human and I'm like exploring every topic. 00:38:58.575 --> 00:39:03.105 The trouble is then you can't find anyone So if you niche down kind 00:39:03.105 --> 00:39:06.815 of to a WordPress type thing, for instance Then you, then you branch 00:39:06.825 --> 00:39:08.905 back out as you grow, potentially. 00:39:08.905 --> 00:39:11.945 I think that's a strategy that I've seen have success for people. 00:39:12.105 --> 00:39:13.135 And you don't even need it, Nick. 00:39:13.215 --> 00:39:15.285 I'm not even saying you have to need to branch back out, but I'm just 00:39:15.285 --> 00:39:19.545 saying, like, that seems, you have to build the rapport in a very siloed 00:39:19.555 --> 00:39:22.945 way, it seems like, and then from there you can continue to do it. 00:39:22.945 --> 00:39:25.145 So, and again, I'm not saying this is the only strategy, I'm just 00:39:25.145 --> 00:39:26.245 saying this is stuff that I've seen. 00:39:26.535 --> 00:39:29.505 But, But yeah, I mean, it's, but again, going back to all of it, you 00:39:29.505 --> 00:39:31.335 have to, you have to want to do it. 00:39:31.335 --> 00:39:33.405 You have to, you have to believe that it's a good idea. 00:39:33.405 --> 00:39:35.775 You have to believe that you can do it, and you always have to be ready 00:39:35.775 --> 00:39:40.325 to like literally fail with every single video or blog post or whatever. 00:39:40.905 --> 00:39:44.685 Because there are some days where your live stream, like, like a, a live stream. 00:39:44.685 --> 00:39:47.385 I'm just doesn't get as many people watching it for whatever reason. 00:39:47.445 --> 00:39:50.115 And sometimes it's not even your fault entirely, you know, it might 00:39:50.115 --> 00:39:51.885 just be like a busy day or something. 00:39:51.885 --> 00:39:54.735 So you, you can't be super emotional about it either. 00:39:54.735 --> 00:39:54.915 It's 00:39:55.125 --> 00:39:55.455 Matt: Yeah. 00:39:56.125 --> 00:39:56.305 Yeah. 00:39:56.305 --> 00:40:00.645 And I've, I've constantly, like, just as a creator, you know, it's also my, the 00:40:00.645 --> 00:40:05.065 same personality that I lead with when I criticize like WordPress is like, I 00:40:05.065 --> 00:40:09.555 don't know, it's just like the same way that I lead things where my own content 00:40:09.555 --> 00:40:15.365 creation, like, I don't want to be just this one person doing just this one thing. 00:40:15.415 --> 00:40:17.165 I am not good at that. 00:40:17.175 --> 00:40:21.235 Like I'm good at consistency because I haven't given up on WordPress. 00:40:21.690 --> 00:40:25.900 Content creation for over a decade what I'm not good at is 00:40:25.900 --> 00:40:30.510 like the same thing over and over and over again Which you know? 00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:35.340 Jonathan From the tonic, you know had mentioned something I think it was like 00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:38.320 when the first time you were on his live stream and you brought it up and 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.020 he was like Oh, you know, I've been you know, Matt's been doing it for a while, 00:40:41.020 --> 00:40:44.500 but I've been doing like consistently I have like more episodes and he's right. 00:40:44.500 --> 00:40:51.920 He probably has collectively, yeah, a crazy amount of, of episodes, but that's 00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:57.150 because number one, like I've, I never did the same thing over and over and over 00:40:57.150 --> 00:40:59.250 again because I just get tired of it. 00:40:59.700 --> 00:41:02.400 And then I get in my head, I'm like, if I'm tired of it, 00:41:02.690 --> 00:41:04.510 other people are tired of it. 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:08.350 So I was never one to be like, I'm just going to do this same format 00:41:08.390 --> 00:41:10.470 over and over and over again. 00:41:10.470 --> 00:41:10.640 Yeah. 00:41:10.640 --> 00:41:10.660 Yeah. 00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:14.920 I want to creatively change things, which is how like the Matt report evolved. 00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:17.430 Like at beginning it was just like, I'm going to talk to people cause I need to 00:41:17.430 --> 00:41:19.430 look same thing, same exact thing as you. 00:41:19.660 --> 00:41:22.580 I need to talk to people to learn what the hell is happening in this WordPress space 00:41:22.780 --> 00:41:26.270 because I see people getting big clients and I want to get those big clients too. 00:41:26.520 --> 00:41:27.860 I just don't know how they're doing it. 00:41:28.130 --> 00:41:30.370 And I did that for like two years to grow the agency. 00:41:30.370 --> 00:41:32.100 And I was like, Oh, I've figured it out. 00:41:32.630 --> 00:41:34.480 Like I figured out how to make connections. 00:41:34.490 --> 00:41:35.830 I figured out who the players are. 00:41:36.030 --> 00:41:37.570 I know where the other agencies are. 00:41:37.825 --> 00:41:40.575 And then it became more of like, you know, when I was starting to 00:41:40.575 --> 00:41:44.105 create products and, plugins and themes and I was just, okay, now 00:41:44.105 --> 00:41:45.175 I'm going to leverage it for that. 00:41:45.175 --> 00:41:47.505 So let's build in public with the, with the podcast. 00:41:47.505 --> 00:41:51.945 And then after that, it was just like, okay, how do I turn this into a community? 00:41:51.945 --> 00:41:56.400 And I started the mat report pro, which was, you know, a community like 00:41:56.410 --> 00:41:58.190 you, like we know communities today. 00:41:58.460 --> 00:42:00.880 and you know, still trying to run an agency and like 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:01.960 talking about things like that. 00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:04.760 And then it was like, Oh my God, I'm having kids and now I need a real job. 00:42:05.770 --> 00:42:08.750 so then it was just like, okay, like I have to get, like, I have to like 00:42:08.750 --> 00:42:11.430 change things up, you know, and, and do all these different things. 00:42:12.285 --> 00:42:16.395 So like I'm ever evolving this, this content position that 00:42:16.395 --> 00:42:17.715 I'm in and I'm okay with it. 00:42:18.025 --> 00:42:21.085 And, you know, when I see like other people doing well, sure. 00:42:21.105 --> 00:42:22.745 Do I get, do I get jealous? 00:42:22.745 --> 00:42:26.365 Like, you know, our friend, Paul Charlton, 150, 000 subscribers or whatever. 00:42:26.375 --> 00:42:28.055 And I'm like, yeah, I mean, I would love that too. 00:42:28.055 --> 00:42:31.150 But then I look at what Paul's doing and he's like, Only doing YouTube, 00:42:31.730 --> 00:42:33.230 like as far as content, right? 00:42:33.230 --> 00:42:36.280 I mean, maybe he has his blog and newsletter and stuff like that, but 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:37.320 I don't even hear him talk about it. 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:41.110 I just see him showing up and doing YouTube and that has worked for 00:42:41.110 --> 00:42:42.630 him to like grow that audience. 00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:43.930 And do I get jealous of it? 00:42:43.950 --> 00:42:44.970 Yeah, of course I do. 00:42:44.970 --> 00:42:46.640 As like a content creator, I'm competitive. 00:42:46.860 --> 00:42:48.290 And I'm like, I could do that too. 00:42:48.640 --> 00:42:53.070 But would I have been satisfied doing it all these years? 00:42:53.110 --> 00:42:54.020 Probably not. 00:42:54.370 --> 00:42:56.960 Cause I did hit a level of burnout when I started my YouTube channel where I 00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:01.310 didn't even open up my YouTube dashboard for over a year cause I, same thing. 00:43:01.310 --> 00:43:02.410 I was like, this sucks. 00:43:03.110 --> 00:43:04.190 I don't want to do this. 00:43:04.540 --> 00:43:07.330 And you know, let me just go back to the podcast cause I love that more. 00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:12.430 So anyway, this is evolution, of like my content and competing with other people. 00:43:12.430 --> 00:43:14.280 And you know, I'm sure we all go through this. 00:43:14.300 --> 00:43:15.170 I'm sure you go through it. 00:43:15.180 --> 00:43:18.450 Like when you look at the landscape to be like, God, I, yeah. 00:43:18.730 --> 00:43:20.540 If I did this, could I be like them? 00:43:20.700 --> 00:43:23.670 You know, and you just have to, you know, find your own path. 00:43:23.690 --> 00:43:26.880 Anything more systematic and I would just, like, hate it, I think. 00:43:28.300 --> 00:43:32.410 Mark: I mean and we go back to the the opportunity thing, you know 00:43:32.410 --> 00:43:34.660 when you're hot you get to take advantage of that That's very real. 00:43:34.870 --> 00:43:38.020 There's also I mean, I truly believe that there's also like a level of 00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:43.780 I don't know if luck is the right word But there's definitely an 00:43:43.820 --> 00:43:46.280 aspect of timing You know, right? 00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:49.760 Like, because, like, depending on when you started making, like, WordPress 00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:52.140 content, I would say you in general, like, depending on when somebody starts 00:43:52.140 --> 00:43:55.990 making, like, WordPress content, like, maybe there were more people that 00:43:55.990 --> 00:44:00.165 were at you know, like, like flocking to YouTube for that specific reason. 00:44:00.385 --> 00:44:02.925 Maybe YouTube is still kind of trending upward, but maybe there was like 00:44:02.925 --> 00:44:05.245 a boom before to a certain degree. 00:44:05.615 --> 00:44:08.745 There's also again, like you said earlier, there's when there's less 00:44:08.745 --> 00:44:10.485 saturation, there's less options. 00:44:10.485 --> 00:44:15.105 And that's just that, that super is a, super impactful there. 00:44:15.105 --> 00:44:20.545 I mean, this is, this is one of the reasons where like I think about WordPress 00:44:20.545 --> 00:44:24.815 and I think about how, You know, you try to like predict how it might change 00:44:24.815 --> 00:44:26.825 or move forward, which is difficult. 00:44:26.855 --> 00:44:30.905 But like, you know, the ad, the advent of AI and such, those types of things, 00:44:30.905 --> 00:44:32.165 like are they gonna have any impact? 00:44:32.165 --> 00:44:38.195 That's why like, that's why I need to, I need to at least hear about the topics 00:44:38.405 --> 00:44:41.195 that are in their infancy, so to speak. 00:44:41.435 --> 00:44:44.255 I don't necessarily wanna be an early adopter of everything, but I need to 00:44:44.255 --> 00:44:47.795 like have my finger on the pulse of kind of like what's going on there. 00:44:47.945 --> 00:44:50.285 So hopefully I can kind of like maybe. 00:44:51.610 --> 00:44:55.590 feel it out as it starts to, you know, take away and take traction and then 00:44:55.590 --> 00:44:59.870 be like, like, that's, I think that's literally how most, again, regardless 00:44:59.870 --> 00:45:02.050 of what your goals are, you might have different goals, but like, I think that's 00:45:02.050 --> 00:45:06.310 how, like, take a ridiculous example of like Jeff Bezos and Amazon, like they 00:45:06.310 --> 00:45:10.730 were selling books, like, and he just, it was just timing and it was how it went. 00:45:10.770 --> 00:45:12.430 And then he was like, all right, well, let's keep doing this. 00:45:12.430 --> 00:45:14.030 And like, we're selling books and we're selling other stuff. 00:45:14.030 --> 00:45:18.740 And it's like, It, it just so happened that there was no such thing as Amazon. 00:45:18.750 --> 00:45:20.560 The internet was pop, was about to pop off. 00:45:20.720 --> 00:45:21.810 He kind of saw that. 00:45:21.810 --> 00:45:24.110 He started selling literally books and he's like, well, we 00:45:24.110 --> 00:45:25.220 could sell other stuff too. 00:45:25.570 --> 00:45:27.190 And then you just continue to roll from there. 00:45:27.190 --> 00:45:30.350 I know that was like a separate example, but it's just, it's kind of the same 00:45:30.350 --> 00:45:34.425 thing with this content because people make content for a living, surely. 00:45:34.695 --> 00:45:37.225 But there, there also is other pieces to it. 00:45:37.225 --> 00:45:39.175 I mean, you run the WP minute, like it's a business. 00:45:39.175 --> 00:45:40.335 It's not just content. 00:45:40.335 --> 00:45:44.715 I mean, the content is a big part of it, but it is, the content is one of the main 00:45:44.715 --> 00:45:46.235 pieces, but there's a lot more to it. 00:45:46.645 --> 00:45:50.415 you know, so I, I think it's just, like you said, you have to observe what 00:45:50.415 --> 00:45:53.665 other people are doing and kind of carve your own, your own way through it too. 00:45:54.605 --> 00:45:54.785 So, 00:45:55.610 --> 00:45:59.080 Matt: Multiple, streams of revenue, for sure are super important. 00:45:59.130 --> 00:46:01.550 Again, that's why I just go back to, to sponsorships. 00:46:01.550 --> 00:46:04.710 I know there are people that do, you know, great with memberships. 00:46:05.540 --> 00:46:06.800 Membership's super tough. 00:46:07.020 --> 00:46:08.570 It's its own challenge, right? 00:46:08.570 --> 00:46:11.340 It's, it's the challenge of like building the audience and 00:46:11.340 --> 00:46:12.410 then selling the membership. 00:46:13.550 --> 00:46:15.350 Even at the WP minute, if you go to the WP minute. 00:46:15.470 --> 00:46:20.560 com slash support, you can join as an annual supporting member for 79 a year. 00:46:20.830 --> 00:46:24.950 or if you donate, you can also join, the slack channel. 00:46:25.370 --> 00:46:28.450 And really it's just like your pledge of 79 is to be like, Hey, 00:46:29.220 --> 00:46:30.540 You know, really like what you do. 00:46:30.580 --> 00:46:32.310 It'd be no different if you were a business and you 00:46:32.310 --> 00:46:33.530 wanted to sponsor a podcast. 00:46:33.530 --> 00:46:36.790 It's sort of like an individual sponsorship level to be like, 00:46:36.790 --> 00:46:40.940 yeah, every year I'll give you 79 to support the cause of, you know, 00:46:40.950 --> 00:46:42.750 this effort that you, that you have. 00:46:43.050 --> 00:46:45.130 but you can also join the Slack channel for five bucks. 00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:46.780 and just one time. 00:46:48.225 --> 00:46:53.335 you know, the running a membership requires just so much more, focus and 00:46:53.345 --> 00:46:58.175 energy, which as a full time employee and part time content creator, there's 00:46:58.185 --> 00:47:01.915 no way I can also run a membership to, at least in my opinion, because 00:47:01.915 --> 00:47:05.025 the best memberships that I've been a part of are the ones where the person 00:47:05.025 --> 00:47:06.570 who's running it is also a member. 00:47:06.850 --> 00:47:10.860 Ultra engaged and there's ultra value on the other end of that 00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:12.110 membership in the beginning. 00:47:12.110 --> 00:47:12.930 It's fun It's exciting. 00:47:12.930 --> 00:47:17.060 You get to come in and network and see what's behind the closed door but as 00:47:17.060 --> 00:47:20.520 a consumer you're just like, okay, I after month two you're like I did all 00:47:20.520 --> 00:47:23.220 of it Like now what video game's over? 00:47:23.300 --> 00:47:24.080 I beat the game. 00:47:24.160 --> 00:47:25.080 Like what's the end game? 00:47:25.100 --> 00:47:27.660 Like what what else can I do after this? 00:47:28.090 --> 00:47:33.310 And I think to me at least that's what goes on in my head, which is why running, 00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:38.410 having been my second go at memberships has been pretty tough because I just don't 00:47:38.410 --> 00:47:43.690 have the time and the energy to, to focus on what else I can do, you know, for that 00:47:43.690 --> 00:47:47.710 membership, aside from, you know, we have the Slack channel, a slot aside from, 00:47:47.710 --> 00:47:49.530 you know, connecting with other folks. 00:47:49.530 --> 00:47:52.000 Like, you know, if you're in the Slack channel, there's people I've connected 00:47:52.020 --> 00:47:55.665 other people to as, as value, you know, and then doing like, you know, 00:47:56.115 --> 00:47:58.825 I don't know, a couple weeks ago we did like a little side chat, which is 00:47:58.825 --> 00:48:02.575 actually something I want to do more of for, the WP minute members is just 00:48:02.575 --> 00:48:05.685 like, Hey, let's, as this group, as this collective group right here who 00:48:05.685 --> 00:48:09.625 love to talk about WordPress news, and that's the focus, let's just all get 00:48:09.625 --> 00:48:12.485 on a call and just talk about stuff that's happening in the space and we 00:48:12.485 --> 00:48:15.775 can all ask our each other questions and, and get our opinions and whatnot. 00:48:16.055 --> 00:48:18.225 anyway, all of that is to say is like running a membership, you got to do 00:48:18.225 --> 00:48:21.085 so much more, like to get that value. 00:48:21.445 --> 00:48:21.465 yeah. 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:28.820 Courses in education, or I should say courses, is something I haven't done yet. 00:48:29.850 --> 00:48:30.380 Yet. 00:48:31.140 --> 00:48:35.040 I do want to explore something around that for the WP Minute. 00:48:35.340 --> 00:48:38.230 I don't think it would be a charged thing, or something I charge for. 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:41.040 It might be on like, the value for value system, which is like, if you 00:48:41.050 --> 00:48:44.320 value this work, then, you know, give me five bucks or give me fifty bucks. 00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:47.110 Like, whatever you find valuable for this content, you know, you know. 00:48:47.580 --> 00:48:51.140 Let's roll that way instead of just saying like this course is a hundred dollars or 00:48:51.140 --> 00:48:52.490 a thousand dollars like whatever it is. 00:48:52.860 --> 00:48:55.200 so that is something I have yet to explore though. 00:48:55.230 --> 00:49:00.020 I do have some ideas for it for the WP minute, but also still going to do the 00:49:00.290 --> 00:49:01.640 roll up your sleeve and do the work. 00:49:02.100 --> 00:49:05.950 Like you still got to make the thing and, and have people enjoy it, right. 00:49:05.980 --> 00:49:08.450 And, and market it and keep that wheel going. 00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:11.420 Cause otherwise no one sees it, regardless of your audience size. 00:49:11.430 --> 00:49:15.410 So, Definitely some challenges, but I think a lot of folks who are exploring 00:49:15.410 --> 00:49:20.100 the WordPress content creation space, You know, can get some, can build a healthy 00:49:20.100 --> 00:49:22.050 business off of multiple revenue streams. 00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:24.110 Cause you're not going to get it from YouTube ads. 00:49:25.175 --> 00:49:25.525 Mark: true. 00:49:25.790 --> 00:49:26.420 Matt: that's for sure. 00:49:26.520 --> 00:49:29.420 You're going to, you need to get considerably, more content than that, 00:49:29.660 --> 00:49:32.720 or considerably more eyeballs than that to make money on YouTube ads. 00:49:33.130 --> 00:49:36.740 And in fact, in an episode that might be out already by the time the listener 00:49:36.740 --> 00:49:42.110 is hearing this, I interviewed Doc Pop, who was a managing editor of Torque 00:49:42.130 --> 00:49:44.750 Mag for WP Engine for like 10 years. 00:49:44.750 --> 00:49:46.200 I thought it was 8, but it was 10 years. 00:49:46.690 --> 00:49:49.320 And now he's an independent WordPress content creator. 00:49:49.710 --> 00:49:52.185 and And he just did a partnership with WordPress. 00:49:52.185 --> 00:49:58.245 com doing a highly produced series on the Fediverse exploring what the Fediverse 00:49:58.265 --> 00:50:01.325 is, what it means, how folks can connect up to it, and all this other stuff. 00:50:01.885 --> 00:50:05.465 There's plenty of opportunity in this space, like WordPress product companies. 00:50:05.495 --> 00:50:06.365 They need marketers. 00:50:06.405 --> 00:50:07.195 They need content. 00:50:07.485 --> 00:50:11.855 Do they have the budget for it is another question, but they, they sorely need it. 00:50:11.965 --> 00:50:15.375 and I think like you said at the top of the show, the human connection 00:50:15.735 --> 00:50:16.865 is what's going to win out. 00:50:16.895 --> 00:50:21.395 And these brands need to work with folks like you and I and others. 00:50:21.865 --> 00:50:24.855 So it's a great time for us, but also a competitive time for us. 00:50:25.570 --> 00:50:26.550 Mark: Yeah, certainly. 00:50:27.030 --> 00:50:27.460 I think. 00:50:28.510 --> 00:50:29.890 Just going back there for a second. 00:50:29.890 --> 00:50:32.480 Cause that's a, I think it's a really important thing to understand if you're 00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:35.380 getting into content, like what you can do, like the ways that you can 00:50:35.380 --> 00:50:39.330 leverage your, your influence, your audience, things like that or whatever. 00:50:39.540 --> 00:50:42.170 So obviously just making content, you can get ad revenue straight 00:50:42.180 --> 00:50:43.630 up via YouTube or whatever. 00:50:43.980 --> 00:50:47.570 Maybe they could pay directly for content, I guess, is one other way, 00:50:47.570 --> 00:50:48.680 depending on how you want to slice it. 00:50:49.020 --> 00:50:50.860 Talked about sponsorships. 00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:53.830 We talked about, maybe we brushed on affiliates. 00:50:53.830 --> 00:50:56.090 So affiliate is like, you know, you say something and you're not 00:50:56.090 --> 00:50:58.520 getting paid to say it, but you're getting paid when people buy it, 00:50:58.570 --> 00:51:00.350 so to speak, is generally the way. 00:51:00.610 --> 00:51:01.300 you get a commission. 00:51:01.770 --> 00:51:03.330 we talked about courses there. 00:51:03.660 --> 00:51:07.515 We talked about memberships, which was like a, Community based approach 00:51:07.515 --> 00:51:09.355 membership to be in a part of a community. 00:51:09.845 --> 00:51:12.675 consulting is another one that I've seen, whether it's private 00:51:12.685 --> 00:51:15.635 like one on one or like group consulting or something like that. 00:51:15.635 --> 00:51:19.065 I'm just saying like, as you build up, and these are all things that I've considered 00:51:19.295 --> 00:51:21.275 and I've partially built out some of them. 00:51:21.275 --> 00:51:21.495 Right. 00:51:21.675 --> 00:51:23.995 So it's like, and I know you've tried a ton of them. 00:51:23.995 --> 00:51:27.635 So like those are at least five, they're different ways that whatever one 00:51:27.635 --> 00:51:29.115 resonates with you, all of them, whatever. 00:51:29.285 --> 00:51:32.705 But again, like you said, some of them are way more intense than others. 00:51:32.945 --> 00:51:34.785 Like a consulting call might just be. 00:51:35.065 --> 00:51:37.195 More, more or less like an hour of your time. 00:51:37.195 --> 00:51:42.275 But a membership platform is like a ton of time, you know, sponsorship as, as, 00:51:42.375 --> 00:51:47.105 as we both know, like that could be a ton of time, just making it happen initially. 00:51:47.465 --> 00:51:51.115 and then, you know, after that, you gotta, you gotta see what happens on that end. 00:51:51.375 --> 00:51:53.905 are there any other mechanisms that I'm missing? 00:51:53.905 --> 00:51:55.425 Oh, 00:51:55.745 --> 00:51:58.095 Matt: swag, t shirts, stuff like that. 00:51:58.455 --> 00:52:03.105 you know, there's, you know, collectively, like, as a content creator, if, if 00:52:03.115 --> 00:52:07.115 you're doing Omnichannel, which is what I do, which is audio, video, 00:52:07.115 --> 00:52:12.385 newsletter, blog, social, you know, and you actually have, like, five distinct, 00:52:13.925 --> 00:52:17.985 you know, areas in that, because, you know, as a podcasting purist. 00:52:17.985 --> 00:52:20.655 A lot of people say, Oh, I have a YouTube channel, which is also a podcast. 00:52:20.765 --> 00:52:21.295 I get it. 00:52:22.125 --> 00:52:25.925 But podcasting is really like audio first medium, distributed on all 00:52:25.925 --> 00:52:29.565 podcasts, you know, players, because you're, it's two different ways that 00:52:29.565 --> 00:52:31.025 people can experience that content. 00:52:31.385 --> 00:52:34.965 so if you have a true like omni channel thing, like now you, you have, 00:52:35.065 --> 00:52:36.195 did I include newsletter in there? 00:52:36.495 --> 00:52:40.855 now you have these areas that you can stack, as an offering, right. 00:52:40.865 --> 00:52:41.695 To other brands. 00:52:42.085 --> 00:52:42.615 So. 00:52:43.300 --> 00:52:47.650 What I'm saying is like, don't shortchange yourself because brands could want 00:52:47.660 --> 00:52:52.680 to get exposure, on your YouTube channel, but maybe not on your podcast. 00:52:52.700 --> 00:52:54.740 But maybe there are brands that want to be on your podcast. 00:52:55.140 --> 00:52:57.540 maybe there are brands that only want newsletter, right? 00:52:57.540 --> 00:53:01.050 So when you look at it and you zoom out and you say, okay, as a content creator, 00:53:01.050 --> 00:53:03.620 I have all of these areas of distribution. 00:53:04.050 --> 00:53:09.150 Now, How do I fill those gaps or how do I offer those as valuable 00:53:09.150 --> 00:53:11.220 spots to, you know, my audience? 00:53:11.865 --> 00:53:12.145 Mark: Yeah. 00:53:12.730 --> 00:53:14.270 Matt: You know, so or my to my brands 00:53:14.885 --> 00:53:17.405 Mark: package it up to would be extremely vital. 00:53:17.615 --> 00:53:19.135 I would say like the whole packaging thing, you've 00:53:19.145 --> 00:53:20.315 brought that up to me before. 00:53:20.635 --> 00:53:23.795 I need to spend more time on that once you kind of get to that, like whether 00:53:23.795 --> 00:53:27.285 it be sponsorship specific or just like literally it's like, it's like 00:53:27.285 --> 00:53:30.840 creating your, it's like, a good analogy is like when you're an agency and 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:33.700 you're creating your website care plan, it's kind of like that type of thing. 00:53:33.700 --> 00:53:37.460 But instead your, your customer isn't a business that wants your service. 00:53:37.460 --> 00:53:40.750 It's a business that wants, you know, eyeballs and those types of things. 00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:44.170 So it's just kind of creating your offer, but it's for a different type of 00:53:44.170 --> 00:53:47.900 client this time, basically a different type of customer, which is tough at 00:53:47.900 --> 00:53:51.790 first cause you don't really know probably like at all, you know, it's, 00:53:51.870 --> 00:53:56.905 I, I feel like it's a little bit more I don't, it's definitely more foreign 00:53:56.905 --> 00:53:59.535 for somebody like me that, that hasn't like ever had to pitch anybody on, 00:53:59.545 --> 00:54:01.945 Hey, I have people that watch my stuff. 00:54:01.975 --> 00:54:04.765 You know, like, do you want those people to know about your product? 00:54:04.765 --> 00:54:08.015 It's, it's just a new frontier I feel like for a lot of, a lot of people. 00:54:08.225 --> 00:54:12.555 Matt: it's not something you're I Mean, I I'm putting words in your mouth but 00:54:12.565 --> 00:54:15.235 it's not something you're afraid of like it's not something you're afraid to do 00:54:15.585 --> 00:54:22.275 because I want to end of this topic here is Something that I riffed on last week 00:54:22.275 --> 00:54:26.480 or at I forget earlier this week You Cause I've, I've been seeing it for years. 00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:29.870 It's like the indie product maker, plug in theme service, whatever 00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:34.710 ebook where they're just like, ah, I'm not a good salesperson. 00:54:35.180 --> 00:54:36.310 I don't know what to do. 00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:38.570 Like, I don't know how to like do this marketing thing. 00:54:39.270 --> 00:54:41.010 And then only to see them. 00:54:41.740 --> 00:54:43.050 I know it's an unfortunate situation. 00:54:43.060 --> 00:54:43.680 It sounds harsh. 00:54:44.060 --> 00:54:46.150 where it's just like only to see them like six months to a year later, be 00:54:46.150 --> 00:54:47.150 like, oh, I can never do this thing. 00:54:47.595 --> 00:54:48.925 Like I could never figure this thing out. 00:54:48.935 --> 00:54:51.805 Like I could never make my business work cause I'm not a good salesperson. 00:54:51.805 --> 00:54:53.015 I'm not a good marketer. 00:54:53.375 --> 00:54:59.685 Well, For me, it's like that first, that first step is to observe, like 00:54:59.715 --> 00:55:03.855 to stop thinking of marketing in like this, in the WordPress space anyway. 00:55:04.115 --> 00:55:07.835 Stop thinking of it in a numbers game, which a lot of us like lean on. 00:55:07.835 --> 00:55:08.845 We say, it's just a numbers game. 00:55:08.985 --> 00:55:09.715 You just got to get out there. 00:55:09.855 --> 00:55:12.055 Like when you're looking to connect and build relationships, 00:55:12.055 --> 00:55:13.005 don't look at it in numbers. 00:55:13.145 --> 00:55:17.655 As a numbers game, zoom out and see like whatever the 50 content creators 00:55:17.655 --> 00:55:20.795 that there are in the WordPress space, like who show up every week or every 00:55:20.795 --> 00:55:25.285 month and do this thing and build your like relationships with each and every 00:55:25.285 --> 00:55:27.805 one of them in a very unique way. 00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:29.150 Right. 00:55:29.190 --> 00:55:34.900 Reach out, talk to me, talk to Mark, figure out what it is that, 00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:38.620 that, that we can do together to promote your product or business. 00:55:38.650 --> 00:55:41.560 If you're not going to do like the whole content marketing thing yourself, 00:55:41.700 --> 00:55:44.980 like if you can't do it, you have to bring it to somebody like us. 00:55:45.530 --> 00:55:47.790 I mean, if you're not going to hire like a big agency, cause you probably 00:55:47.790 --> 00:55:50.970 don't have the budget, but you can work with an independent content creator. 00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:54.890 Maybe there's opportunity there in different ways, to like to 00:55:54.890 --> 00:55:56.120 get your product out there. 00:55:56.500 --> 00:56:02.070 And it drives me crazy when I see people do that, and say things like, I'm not a 00:56:02.070 --> 00:56:03.290 good salesperson, this is not working. 00:56:03.290 --> 00:56:05.510 But I never hear from them. 00:56:05.710 --> 00:56:06.090 Ever. 00:56:07.060 --> 00:56:09.440 You know, and on a, pitch me your product. 00:56:09.490 --> 00:56:10.230 Pitch it well. 00:56:10.620 --> 00:56:11.530 Don't waste my time. 00:56:12.180 --> 00:56:12.440 Right? 00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:15.300 Give me a reason to interview you or showcase your thing. 00:56:15.660 --> 00:56:20.840 but, but, but reach out and, and have that pitch at least on a one on one scenario. 00:56:20.850 --> 00:56:23.840 Like you at least work on it that way, if you're afraid to like sell to the masses. 00:56:23.960 --> 00:56:24.410 Okay. 00:56:24.680 --> 00:56:28.840 But one on one email connect and, and make that pitch. 00:56:29.410 --> 00:56:32.770 I've also seen the inverse of people who think that they've got it all. 00:56:33.170 --> 00:56:34.220 They've got it all together. 00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:38.400 And then, you know, think that people are just going to cover their product because. 00:56:39.220 --> 00:56:42.250 They're a veteran product maker and they've launched products before. 00:56:42.250 --> 00:56:45.150 And then of course you should want to, you know, partner with me because 00:56:45.150 --> 00:56:48.480 I've launched a product before and I, you know, I've had success and you 00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:50.100 certainly want to cover my product again. 00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:53.740 No, because now I know that you know what you're doing and you have 00:56:53.740 --> 00:56:55.380 the money you should be sponsoring. 00:56:55.590 --> 00:56:59.230 At the very least, you should be buying 79 bucks a year to be, to have 00:56:59.230 --> 00:57:01.360 an account in the WP minutes slack. 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:03.590 So you can network with other people and let them know that 00:57:03.590 --> 00:57:04.390 you've launched the product. 00:57:04.680 --> 00:57:08.855 So I've seen it like both sides, but certainly like, The beginners, if you're 00:57:08.945 --> 00:57:11.935 really struggling with that sales and marketing thing, reach out to us content 00:57:11.935 --> 00:57:13.745 creators and build a relationship. 00:57:13.755 --> 00:57:19.055 You might not get a series of videos from Mark, but maybe he'll talk about 00:57:19.055 --> 00:57:23.575 you in a segment of his live stream or do some other like creative, but you know, 00:57:23.605 --> 00:57:25.515 at least try, I think, in my opinion, 00:57:27.055 --> 00:57:30.585 Mark: Yeah, so I'm pretty empathetic to, to that, 00:57:30.795 --> 00:57:34.845 Matt: really, that's the first time I've heard you be empathetic to 00:57:34.935 --> 00:57:35.395 Mark: What? 00:57:35.705 --> 00:57:36.345 What the fuck? 00:57:36.865 --> 00:57:38.345 You haven't been listening long enough, buddy. 00:57:38.445 --> 00:57:40.835 I've definitely, I've definitely shown empathy before. 00:57:40.875 --> 00:57:44.665 but, I would say I'm empathetic specifically to that because, The, the 00:57:44.665 --> 00:57:48.155 part where the kind of the premise of what you're saying there were like, people 00:57:48.155 --> 00:57:50.685 are like, I can build a great product. 00:57:50.685 --> 00:57:53.675 I'm a, basically what you're saying is I'm a developer, but I'm not a salesperson. 00:57:54.055 --> 00:57:56.685 I'm empathetic to that because I have always tried to be like 00:57:56.705 --> 00:58:00.195 the, the, the unicorn, like the one person that does everything. 00:58:00.195 --> 00:58:02.895 And I have started to realize as I've talked to other people. 00:58:03.185 --> 00:58:06.425 Made more connections and just tried to do more things that like I am for 00:58:06.425 --> 00:58:11.125 instance, not a designer I am not really a developer per se even though 00:58:11.125 --> 00:58:12.695 my mind's slightly more in that camp. 00:58:12.905 --> 00:58:17.015 I do think like I have a Reasonable skill level at like creating content 00:58:17.025 --> 00:58:21.625 talking and critical thinking and like strategizing a lot of the stuff so that 00:58:21.625 --> 00:58:26.650 is where like I feel like my value is now The key to this is that when somebody says 00:58:26.650 --> 00:58:29.420 that they're not, they're not, they're a developer and they're not a salesman, 00:58:29.420 --> 00:58:33.160 they're not a marketing marketer, they have to have that self awareness to be 00:58:33.160 --> 00:58:34.740 like, okay, well I need to go find that. 00:58:34.870 --> 00:58:37.060 And again, it's kind of the pot calling the kettle black because I've done 00:58:37.060 --> 00:58:39.600 this in the past, but I'm just saying like, I'm echoing what you're saying. 00:58:39.610 --> 00:58:44.070 Like you need to create that connection, that partnership and go do that because 00:58:45.535 --> 00:58:48.205 I mean, literally, it's just like, when you look at it really objective, it's 00:58:48.205 --> 00:58:50.755 like, you're actually spending a ton of time, like, working on the product. 00:58:50.795 --> 00:58:53.775 You can't really be expected to fully market the thing as well. 00:58:53.925 --> 00:58:57.685 You could, but the one thing I will say, though, as a caveat to this, or just 00:58:57.685 --> 00:59:02.735 like a little asterisk, is that A lot of times what I see, the, the product 00:59:02.795 --> 00:59:06.455 owners and developers that I've seen, like, with their products, they know 00:59:06.455 --> 00:59:08.275 their products very well, obviously. 00:59:08.485 --> 00:59:11.335 They just, they're not, they're too, they're, most of the time they're 00:59:11.335 --> 00:59:12.985 developing and not creating the content. 00:59:12.985 --> 00:59:17.625 But if you bring them onto a show, and you have somebody that's curious, As 00:59:17.625 --> 00:59:20.925 the content creator or whatever, we've done this many times over on my channel. 00:59:20.925 --> 00:59:23.605 And like, you know, we even do it basically over on Maddie Eastwood's 00:59:23.605 --> 00:59:27.315 channel and in the bridge builder series to a certain degree, like we're just 00:59:27.315 --> 00:59:31.955 basically asking questions and a lot of times it's harder to create something 00:59:31.955 --> 00:59:34.695 out of thin air and like create like a big script for a video or whatever, 00:59:34.695 --> 00:59:38.035 than it is just have a conversation and people love the conversations. 00:59:38.265 --> 00:59:40.395 So it's like, it's a beautiful mix of all that. 00:59:40.425 --> 00:59:42.945 And hopefully they get some awareness, people in the audience, like. 00:59:43.370 --> 00:59:44.710 the product resonates with them. 00:59:45.120 --> 00:59:47.160 They learn something, maybe they go try it, right? 00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:48.860 And you could leverage that a million different ways. 00:59:48.860 --> 00:59:49.970 You could do affiliate links. 00:59:49.970 --> 00:59:52.070 You could do a straight up sponsorship for that type of thing. 00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:55.720 like whatever it is, it's just, there's whatever the arrangement 00:59:55.720 --> 00:59:56.910 is, whatever the partnership is. 00:59:56.910 --> 00:59:59.990 I understand empathetic to the budget, especially at first. 01:00:00.080 --> 01:00:03.280 if you're trying to get something off the ground, it's difficult, to like deploy 01:00:03.290 --> 01:00:07.420 funds into, you know, the marketing side of stuff, but you, you gotta be. 01:00:08.545 --> 01:00:11.085 like indie developers, some of them do it like better. 01:00:11.085 --> 01:00:13.125 Some of them do like, like some of them do really well. 01:00:13.455 --> 01:00:16.635 You have to, you have to at least stand behind your product. 01:00:16.645 --> 01:00:17.175 You know what I mean? 01:00:17.175 --> 01:00:19.765 Like you have to at least be very confident enough to go on a, 01:00:19.785 --> 01:00:23.105 like a live stream or a video and just talk about what you built. 01:00:23.545 --> 01:00:26.525 You don't have to be an, a crazy good marketer. 01:00:26.695 --> 01:00:30.555 None of these CEOs of these big companies are like incredibly great, fantastic 01:00:30.565 --> 01:00:32.675 communicators, but they are there. 01:00:32.685 --> 01:00:34.835 You know, you have to, somebody's gotta be the face of your thing. 01:00:35.345 --> 01:00:35.715 So. 01:00:36.185 --> 01:00:37.635 yeah, I'm, I'm always about that. 01:00:37.635 --> 01:00:40.325 Definitely hit me or Matt up if you're ever interested in, if you're 01:00:40.325 --> 01:00:42.435 listening or you know anybody or whatever trying to do that type 01:00:42.435 --> 01:00:45.195 of stuff, cause, you know, I think it's, I think it's good for everyone. 01:00:46.010 --> 01:00:53.980 Matt: You know, the, the thing I would add, to that is there's not a lot of, so 01:00:53.980 --> 01:00:59.090 like if you don't have a budget, what, what I would really like to see, and this 01:00:59.090 --> 01:01:03.600 will be my last soapbox moment here for like defending the, the content creators. 01:01:03.600 --> 01:01:07.270 Cause one of the most challenging things is you spend time with somebody, 01:01:07.300 --> 01:01:10.360 you promote their product and then they're just like, see you later, bye. 01:01:10.740 --> 01:01:11.470 And they don't even like. 01:01:12.060 --> 01:01:17.150 Tweet out the episode or linkedin post about like a show they're showing up 01:01:17.160 --> 01:01:20.680 They don't do a blog post about it like number one from a content marketing 01:01:20.680 --> 01:01:25.550 perspective You're just missing a huge opportunity to repurpose content that 01:01:25.550 --> 01:01:29.740 somebody else produced for you Like even the most basic of like a blog post would 01:01:29.740 --> 01:01:33.530 be like hey I appeared on the WP minute or I was on Mark Zmanski's livestream 01:01:33.530 --> 01:01:38.250 like whatever it is like I mean, you could, it's literally you talking. 01:01:38.250 --> 01:01:41.140 You can download that clip or that audio and make audiograms. 01:01:41.140 --> 01:01:42.680 Like it's plenty of freaking things you can do. 01:01:42.740 --> 01:01:44.430 So it blows my mind that anybody 01:01:44.455 --> 01:01:46.275 Mark: thing I gotta, I gotta stop you there for a second though, 01:01:46.295 --> 01:01:49.045 cause the one thing I would say is like, just to get meta a little 01:01:49.045 --> 01:01:52.245 bit, if you're not a marketer, you're not going to think of that. 01:01:52.505 --> 01:01:54.695 Like, so you have to be like told to think of that. 01:01:54.735 --> 01:01:57.615 You have to be almost like, like it's second nature to you and I, but 01:01:57.615 --> 01:01:58.985 to a lot of other people, it's not. 01:01:59.325 --> 01:02:01.545 So like, I'm not, again, I'm, I'm, I'm playing a little bit of devil's 01:02:01.545 --> 01:02:04.855 advocate and just defend, you know, you know, defending the other side 01:02:04.865 --> 01:02:08.105 in a sense, because I do, but I do completely agree with what you're saying. 01:02:08.275 --> 01:02:12.215 I just think that that is, that's like, that, that is like one Oh 01:02:12.215 --> 01:02:13.645 one, but you have to know it. 01:02:13.735 --> 01:02:14.255 You know what I mean? 01:02:14.255 --> 01:02:16.175 If you're not like a marketing mind, but keep going. 01:02:16.175 --> 01:02:16.305 Yeah. 01:02:16.305 --> 01:02:16.545 Sorry 01:02:16.560 --> 01:02:16.820 Matt: Yeah. 01:02:16.820 --> 01:02:17.140 Yeah. 01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:17.650 Yeah. 01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:18.390 true. 01:02:18.510 --> 01:02:21.050 and then, you know, that, that could be the issue, but, But I do know a lot 01:02:21.050 --> 01:02:25.050 of people who are savvy marketers that are doing the whole, like, content, 01:02:25.080 --> 01:02:29.360 you know, marathon, track, on purpose because they know how good it is 01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:30.530 and, but they don't even share it. 01:02:30.740 --> 01:02:34.040 or, you know, sharing it or, or, like, if you have nothing to trade, like, if 01:02:34.040 --> 01:02:36.490 it's like, ah, I don't have a lot of money to spend on this, then definitely 01:02:36.500 --> 01:02:40.295 do that, like, lead with that and say, look, I, I would love to do like you 01:02:40.295 --> 01:02:44.125 to do a video for me, don't have a lot of budget and maybe I can give you a 01:02:44.125 --> 01:02:47.085 few hundred dollars to do this or a better affiliate link or something. 01:02:47.085 --> 01:02:51.695 But I will definitely like tweet it out five times for that week. 01:02:51.705 --> 01:02:54.325 Every single day I'll make a different tweet or a different reference to it. 01:02:54.515 --> 01:02:56.295 I'll write a blog post about it, put in my newsletter. 01:02:56.525 --> 01:02:59.535 maybe I have a press page on my site and I'll definitely link you there 01:02:59.535 --> 01:03:03.115 so that, you know, try to like at least do some of that, that stuff. 01:03:03.125 --> 01:03:03.515 Because. 01:03:04.345 --> 01:03:07.875 It's a great way, you know, to say thanks and it is valuable, like it's valuable 01:03:08.035 --> 01:03:11.695 for people who land on your website, that want to learn more about you because 01:03:11.705 --> 01:03:15.255 my God, I don't know how many times in the WordPress world I go to a website 01:03:15.255 --> 01:03:19.255 and like, who is behind this, like what company, what the hell, who, I'm not 01:03:19.255 --> 01:03:23.725 gonna, one, recommend you or two, how would anybody ever buy anything from you? 01:03:23.870 --> 01:03:27.610 if they don't even know about like who you are and what you do, maybe I'm just 01:03:27.610 --> 01:03:31.030 that kind of consumer that needs to do like that background research first. 01:03:31.410 --> 01:03:34.790 but blows my mind that so many people just don't have, like don't 01:03:34.790 --> 01:03:37.080 expose themselves to their customer. 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:40.450 you know, unless they have just an amazing product and they don't need to, I guess. 01:03:40.780 --> 01:03:43.210 but a lot of them are, are trying to get this thing off the ground. 01:03:43.210 --> 01:03:46.890 And it's just the perfect opportunity to use that, to repurpose that content. 01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:50.100 You know, to share more about them, but I digress. 01:03:50.140 --> 01:03:51.780 I get off that soapbox, right? 01:03:52.060 --> 01:03:53.000 As a content creator. 01:03:54.120 --> 01:03:54.830 Oh boy. 01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:56.130 Great conversation today, Mark. 01:03:56.670 --> 01:04:00.420 As always, where can folks find you on the web? 01:04:01.255 --> 01:04:02.645 Mark: Yeah, man, appreciate you having me, man. 01:04:02.645 --> 01:04:03.435 Thanks so much. 01:04:03.485 --> 01:04:06.775 if you guys want to check out more of my stuff, you just type in mjs. 01:04:06.785 --> 01:04:07.455 bio. 01:04:07.615 --> 01:04:11.125 You will see all my links to my socials, my website, stuff like that. 01:04:11.605 --> 01:04:11.925 yeah. 01:04:12.095 --> 01:04:12.805 Pleasure being here, man. 01:04:13.025 --> 01:04:13.445 so much. 01:04:14.260 --> 01:04:15.060 Matt: The WPMinute. 01:04:15.060 --> 01:04:15.360 com. 01:04:15.700 --> 01:04:16.460 The WPMinute. 01:04:16.460 --> 01:04:19.010 com slash subscribe, because you know, hey, I do a newsletter. 01:04:19.455 --> 01:04:23.155 It goes out to a few thousand people, you know, it's a newsletter. 01:04:23.215 --> 01:04:26.985 I'd like, I'd like to be on the top newsletter, WordPress news, newsletters, 01:04:27.045 --> 01:04:31.095 roundups on these blog posts that people put out, get a, get it at the WP minute. 01:04:31.095 --> 01:04:33.255 com slash subscribe. 01:04:33.275 --> 01:04:35.795 And if you want to support the show and join that slack channel for as 01:04:35.795 --> 01:04:38.635 little as five bucks, the WP minute. 01:04:38.635 --> 01:04:39.405 com slash support. 01:04:39.415 --> 01:04:40.015 Thanks for watching. 01:04:40.015 --> 01:04:40.685 Thanks for listening. 01:04:40.685 --> 01:04:41.485 Thanks for reading. 01:04:41.755 --> 01:04:42.515 Thanks for being there.