WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.920 --> 00:00:02.710 Miriam Ingber: We went rogue. 00:00:02.750 --> 00:00:04.710 We did it with no permission from anybody. 00:00:05.140 --> 00:00:05.880 No, I'm just kidding. 00:00:05.900 --> 00:00:06.680 I'm just kidding. 00:00:06.680 --> 00:00:08.380 Don't give me that face, Kristi. 00:00:09.180 --> 00:00:13.879 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:14.470 --> 00:00:20.959 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcast Company, where we work with a number of higher education podcasts. 00:00:21.230 --> 00:00:25.670 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of Jpod Creations, podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:25.950 --> 00:00:27.440 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:32.670 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and we can all learn from each other. 00:00:32.910 --> 00:00:33.810 Neil McPhedran: Absolutely, Jen. 00:00:33.919 --> 00:00:43.980 Now, before we jump into this episode, I just want to encourage each of you to please join the higher ed pods community at higheredpods.com. 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:44.910 Jennifer-Lee: Sweet. 00:00:44.940 --> 00:00:46.140 Let's get started. 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:53.470 Okay, Neil, have you ever wondered what it takes to get into law school for Harvard or Yale? 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:57.699 Neil McPhedran: Well, I wondered at one point in my life how to get into law school. 00:00:57.810 --> 00:01:07.210 And maybe if there was a podcast way back then, such as the one we're about to talk about today, I might've actually carried on and become a lawyer, like I had originally intended. 00:01:07.475 --> 00:01:09.595 But here I am a podcaster with you. 00:01:09.775 --> 00:01:11.275 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I would've never been able to work with you. 00:01:11.275 --> 00:01:12.975 So I feel like it worked out. 00:01:13.045 --> 00:01:18.884 I feel like we do a little bit as lawyers, you know, we have to research. 00:01:19.164 --> 00:01:21.214 We have to get our points straight. 00:01:21.214 --> 00:01:22.394 We have to get them across. 00:01:22.404 --> 00:01:29.524 We're defending our topics when we are diving deep into what makes every university podcast unique. 00:01:29.685 --> 00:01:30.435 Neil McPhedran: That's good, Jen. 00:01:30.514 --> 00:01:31.044 I like that. 00:01:31.365 --> 00:01:36.824 So today we're going to chat with Miriam and Kristi from Navigating Law School Admissions. 00:01:37.185 --> 00:01:44.494 Now, the really interesting thing about this conversation is Miriam is Dean of Admissions at Yale Law School. 00:01:44.664 --> 00:01:49.194 Kristi is Dean of Admissions at Harvard Law School. 00:01:49.565 --> 00:02:01.399 So, we really dig into the collaboration between what one would think on the outside would be competitive law schools and how do they work together. 00:02:01.410 --> 00:02:04.040 And spoiler alert, they don't compete. 00:02:04.290 --> 00:02:06.520 Jennifer-Lee: There's no cutthroat competition at all. 00:02:07.100 --> 00:02:08.850 Neil McPhedran: So with that, let's get into it. 00:02:10.150 --> 00:02:11.150 Kristi Jobson: Thanks for having us. 00:02:11.200 --> 00:02:12.450 Miriam Ingber: We're thrilled to be here. 00:02:12.790 --> 00:02:13.110 Neil McPhedran: Great. 00:02:13.430 --> 00:02:16.190 Well, why don't we just start before we jump into the podcast itself? 00:02:16.190 --> 00:02:18.930 Why don't you just quickly just each of you introduce yourselves? 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:19.370 Kristi Jobson: Sure. 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:19.759 All right. 00:02:19.770 --> 00:02:21.199 So my name is Kristi Jobson. 00:02:21.260 --> 00:02:24.100 I am the Dean of Admissions at Harvard Law School. 00:02:24.130 --> 00:02:26.099 I'm also a Harvard Law School grad. 00:02:26.189 --> 00:02:33.710 Before taking on this role, I was a law clerk for judges in the Boston area and also worked at a large law firm headquartered in Boston. 00:02:34.105 --> 00:02:44.864 And for the last six years, I'm going on year seven, I've been leading the admissions office at HLS as we recruit and select and yield five hundred and sixty of the most promising lawyers and leaders to come to Harvard. 00:02:44.984 --> 00:02:47.044 And all along the way, I've been there with Miriam. 00:02:47.605 --> 00:02:48.034 Miriam Ingber: That's right. 00:02:48.034 --> 00:02:51.245 Kristi and I were baby deans of admissions together. 00:02:51.274 --> 00:02:55.235 We met six years ago over pizza, if I recall correctly, in New Haven. 00:02:55.550 --> 00:02:56.690 I am Miriam Ingber. 00:02:56.700 --> 00:02:59.330 I'm the Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at Yale Law School. 00:02:59.640 --> 00:03:02.080 Uh, I'm also a Yale Law School alum. 00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:07.710 Um, definitely of an older genre than Kristi is from Harvard, but she puts up with me. 00:03:08.049 --> 00:03:11.680 Uh, after law school, I clerked in Canada, which is where I'm from. 00:03:11.720 --> 00:03:15.500 I worked at a couple of law firms in private practice as a litigator. 00:03:15.810 --> 00:03:25.640 And then I was, uh, in, uh, the public sector, both at a nonprofit and then at another law school before I joined Christie in the admissions and financial aid world. 00:03:26.149 --> 00:03:28.209 Jennifer-Lee: So you said that you met over pizza. 00:03:28.239 --> 00:03:31.920 How does somebody from Yale and somebody from Harvard get together? 00:03:32.569 --> 00:03:35.709 Miriam Ingber: We're not actually enemies, we like each other. 00:03:37.255 --> 00:03:43.185 Kristi Jobson: So it was actually a joint event with members of both of our teams back in summer 2018. 00:03:43.255 --> 00:03:46.865 Miriam and I had both joined in our recent roles. 00:03:46.954 --> 00:03:49.474 I think we'd said hello very briefly at an event. 00:03:49.595 --> 00:03:56.534 Um, but the HLS admissions team came down to New Haven for a training held by a company headquartered there. 00:03:56.535 --> 00:04:00.645 And so while we were in town, I reached out to Miriam and I said, hey, do you want to get together? 00:04:00.645 --> 00:04:03.340 And maybe we should just get our teams together as well. 00:04:03.570 --> 00:04:07.820 Um, we went to a fantastic New Haven pizza spot named Bar. 00:04:07.850 --> 00:04:08.660 Miriam Ingber: Is it Bar Pizza? 00:04:08.950 --> 00:04:09.780 Kristi Jobson: It's Bar, yeah. 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:11.130 Very good pizza. 00:04:11.380 --> 00:04:13.430 They've got like mashed potato pizza. 00:04:13.430 --> 00:04:13.930 There's so much. 00:04:13.930 --> 00:04:14.030 Neil McPhedran: Wow. 00:04:14.030 --> 00:04:15.030 Kristi Jobson: Yeah, it was delicious. 00:04:15.030 --> 00:04:21.975 The two teams got together and we hung out and that's, that was kind of the genesis of our friendship. 00:04:21.975 --> 00:04:36.630 And then over the years I mean starting all the way in 2018, there's enough events and conferences and recruiting events that we go to together that we've had a lot of opportunities to hang out and along the way we've just also become dear friends. 00:04:37.095 --> 00:04:43.545 Miriam Ingber: It's nice to have someone who's new with you so that you can ask all the dumb questions to someone who doesn't think they're dumb. 00:04:44.625 --> 00:04:45.794 So that, that was really nice. 00:04:45.825 --> 00:04:46.845 And then I agree with Kristi. 00:04:46.865 --> 00:04:51.700 It's, you know, our jobs are hard in certain ways that it can be hard to explain to people who aren't in them. 00:04:51.700 --> 00:04:58.710 And so it's really nice to have someone who really instinctively gets the pressures that we're under, uh, the complicated things we have to deal with. 00:04:58.950 --> 00:05:02.240 Someone you trust to ask questions of and to get advice from. 00:05:02.250 --> 00:05:07.210 And yeah, it's so nice to have such a good friend come from work, which is not always the way it happens. 00:05:07.380 --> 00:05:07.569 Jennifer-Lee: No. 00:05:07.569 --> 00:05:18.125 And I think a lot of people think too, like, you know, you guys are from two separate institutions and you're doing a podcast together, uh, that a lot of these schools compete against each other. 00:05:18.125 --> 00:05:21.765 So you wouldn't necessarily see the two of you on the same podcast. 00:05:22.825 --> 00:05:27.865 Miriam Ingber: Can I just say something about the competition thing because I think I'll speak for both of us, but Kristi can always correct me. 00:05:27.905 --> 00:05:29.275 I don't view it as a competition. 00:05:29.455 --> 00:05:30.695 I don't think either of us does. 00:05:30.715 --> 00:05:38.635 I think both of us want both with the podcast, with applicants to help people to optimize their outcomes, make the best choices for themselves. 00:05:38.635 --> 00:05:40.195 And I think both of us feel that way. 00:05:40.465 --> 00:05:47.535 Even if we admit some of the same people, I think both of us hope that all of those folks will end up at the place that is the best fit for them. 00:05:47.885 --> 00:05:49.325 And it's not, that's not always Harvard. 00:05:49.325 --> 00:05:50.335 It's not always Yale. 00:05:50.354 --> 00:05:53.880 Um, it depends on the person and their goals and their life circumstances. 00:05:53.880 --> 00:05:59.320 And so I don't view it as, oh, we won or we lost with anything like that. 00:05:59.320 --> 00:06:03.850 I view it as helping people, you know, make good choices for themselves and for their lives. 00:06:04.500 --> 00:06:05.020 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:06:05.100 --> 00:06:06.810 That's a really nice to hear. 00:06:06.840 --> 00:06:18.850 So you formed this friendship, um, and you, um, were collaborating and then you came together to form a podcast, Navigating Law School Admissions. 00:06:19.320 --> 00:06:22.000 Um, so can you just sort of tell us a little bit about the podcast? 00:06:22.719 --> 00:06:23.159 Kristi Jobson: Sure. 00:06:23.250 --> 00:06:24.500 So it came out of the pandemic. 00:06:24.690 --> 00:06:31.130 So much of law school recruitment and admissions recruitment prior to the pandemic had really been based on travel. 00:06:31.180 --> 00:06:37.819 You go around different university campuses, you meet people in person, you try to convince them to apply, you give them some good advice. 00:06:38.440 --> 00:06:48.469 There were all sorts of different, what are called law school forum events where tons and tons of law schools come together to host sort of a fair for applicants to get to know a bunch of schools at once. 00:06:48.784 --> 00:06:54.474 These were very travel based, and as you can imagine, they weren't a great fit for 2020. 00:06:54.544 --> 00:06:57.385 There'd been some virtual events prior to the pandemic. 00:06:57.534 --> 00:07:01.564 There was lots of virtual events that were, um, kind of launching during that time. 00:07:01.645 --> 00:07:15.015 And Miriam and I think back to May 2020, it was very early in the pandemic, the two of us were like, let's think if there's something a little bit different we could do than yet another Zoom webinar, um, or Zoom meeting. 00:07:15.284 --> 00:07:18.294 Um, and that's where we really landed on the idea of the podcast. 00:07:18.294 --> 00:07:23.914 I think both of us liked the, the fact that a podcast is a piece of static content. 00:07:24.215 --> 00:07:29.224 Someone could listen to it at any time when it's convenient for them, going on a walk, washing the dishes. 00:07:29.594 --> 00:07:32.204 Um, you can rewind a podcast. 00:07:32.204 --> 00:07:33.794 You can hear the advice again. 00:07:34.155 --> 00:07:42.015 Um, and both of, I think we were very attracted to that and also to the idea of doing something a little unique during that pandemic time period. 00:07:42.115 --> 00:07:56.094 Miriam Ingber: And I think one thing we both wanted with the podcast is for it not to be the way a lot of recruiting is very, recruiting is focused on your school in a way, um, convincing people to apply to your school, giving them advice about being the best applicant for your school. 00:07:56.405 --> 00:08:04.225 I think with the podcast, we wanted to take it up a level to give more general advice, um, about how to be a good law school applicant to any school. 00:08:04.255 --> 00:08:06.825 And for that reason, we thought having two of us would help. 00:08:07.094 --> 00:08:11.464 And we also brought in a wide range of guests, um, from schools. 00:08:11.504 --> 00:08:14.464 Some were similar to ours, some were different from across the country. 00:08:14.735 --> 00:08:16.624 So we could try to give that more general advice. 00:08:17.024 --> 00:08:18.465 Neil McPhedran: So who is the audience? 00:08:18.575 --> 00:08:20.595 Obviously prospective students. 00:08:20.595 --> 00:08:25.215 Is that the main audience or is there sort of a broader audience that you're trying to reach as well? 00:08:25.539 --> 00:08:37.590 Kristi Jobson: I suppose it would be anybody interested in law school admissions, prospective law students, people who are thinking about going to law school in the future, people who are applying right now or preparing their applications are probably the most obvious answer. 00:08:37.949 --> 00:08:45.640 But also perhaps the professors and advisors who work with those students to put together their applications. 00:08:46.250 --> 00:08:48.830 We've heard from all sorts of folks who listened to the podcast. 00:08:49.090 --> 00:08:51.850 Miriam Ingber: Yeah, I think pre law advisors often find it useful. 00:08:52.209 --> 00:08:59.695 Uh, when I was in a different job, it always used to feel like students would listen more to a third party than to me when I was in the counseling role. 00:08:59.915 --> 00:09:05.465 And we've had some pre law advisors who will say, you're saying all the things that I'm saying, but it really helps to have you reinforce it. 00:09:05.485 --> 00:09:07.575 So I do think pre law advisors are another. 00:09:07.784 --> 00:09:10.545 I think, unexpected, a little bit Kristi, part of the audience. 00:09:11.104 --> 00:09:11.904 Not my mother. 00:09:11.934 --> 00:09:14.789 My mother listened to one episode and never listened again. 00:09:15.680 --> 00:09:17.740 Kristi Jobson: I contrast, my mother's listened to every episode. 00:09:17.959 --> 00:09:18.359 Miriam Ingber: Well, that's it. 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:19.699 That says something about our moms. 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:21.890 I love you, mom. 00:09:23.439 --> 00:09:33.770 Neil McPhedran: I guess the fact that, as you mentioned earlier on, when you're talking about the show itself, it has a wider aperture of not just focused on your two respective schools. 00:09:34.140 --> 00:09:48.295 But there's a bigger picture to law school admin, administrations overall, I guess that's how that appeals then to the, to, uh, also a wider audience than just someone who might be interested in applying for one of your two schools. 00:09:49.435 --> 00:09:50.614 Miriam Ingber: That's certainly what we hope. 00:09:50.995 --> 00:09:58.855 Jennifer-Lee: And the thing is, like, I know we talked to Yale Admissions, um, and how they do it, uh, in another podcast that we did. 00:09:58.865 --> 00:10:08.675 And it was interesting because I asked them, like, do you find a lot of parents are listening to the podcasts to understand what the requirements are for the kids to get in. 00:10:08.675 --> 00:10:09.785 Do you find that as well? 00:10:10.165 --> 00:10:10.694 Miriam Ingber: I don't know. 00:10:10.694 --> 00:10:15.485 I feel like I'm sure there are some parents of perspective or actual law school applicants who are listening. 00:10:15.935 --> 00:10:23.535 I think our hope, and I think generally it's true that at the graduate school stage, parents are substantially less involved than they are at the undergraduate stage. 00:10:23.675 --> 00:10:29.094 I hope for my own children to be minimally involved at all stages, but certainly for graduate school, we'll see how that goes. 00:10:29.744 --> 00:10:32.764 So I think, you know, some of our applicants are in their forties, right? 00:10:32.764 --> 00:10:33.655 Or in their thirties. 00:10:33.655 --> 00:10:38.430 And, you know, even the ones who are in their, you know, earlier, mid twenties are often fairly independent. 00:10:38.469 --> 00:10:43.569 So I do think, I'm sure there's parents out there who listen, um, and help support their children. 00:10:43.569 --> 00:10:46.030 But I think that's a much smaller part of our audience. 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:59.910 Kristi Jobson: I have heard of some people's significant others listening because I've definitely had spouses of current HLS students who run into me and they say, this is going to sound really weird, but we spent a lot of time listening to your podcast. 00:11:00.030 --> 00:11:01.499 Miriam Ingber: Yeah, that's very sweet. 00:11:01.499 --> 00:11:13.975 I will say when I call everyone we admit, and I would say like a good twenty-five to thirty percent of the time they will say, oh my gosh, it's so crazy to hear your voice in real life because I've heard it so much on the podcast. 00:11:14.334 --> 00:11:23.150 Uh, and that's really nice to know that there's folks that end up in our communities who we've, we've hopefully helped, uh, and we're sort of a little bit familiar to them already. 00:11:23.310 --> 00:11:24.250 Jennifer-Lee: And you actually call them? 00:11:24.920 --> 00:11:26.419 Oh, I was gonna say, call them to admit. 00:11:26.420 --> 00:11:28.159 I thought you just get a letter saying like, you're in. 00:11:29.289 --> 00:11:30.220 Kristi Jobson: Oh, no, we call everybody. 00:11:30.220 --> 00:11:30.950 Miriam Ingber: We call everybody. 00:11:31.710 --> 00:11:32.020 Kristi Jobson: Yeah. 00:11:32.530 --> 00:11:34.150 Jennifer-Lee: Personal touch, love it. 00:11:34.550 --> 00:11:34.860 Okay. 00:11:34.910 --> 00:11:39.740 Kristi Jobson: I had someone at 1L orientation tell me, your voice is so much deeper in real life. 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.620 And he, I was like, oh, really? 00:11:41.780 --> 00:11:46.179 And he goes, yeah, I'm a big listener to your podcast, but I always listen to it on one point two five speed. 00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:49.250 Neil McPhedran: It's funny how people do that. 00:11:49.250 --> 00:11:50.790 Miriam Ingber: Much higher, like munchkins. 00:11:51.570 --> 00:11:55.579 Uh, yeah, I did have someone say, oh my gosh, you sound just like your podcast voice. 00:11:55.579 --> 00:11:58.290 And I was like, I only have one voice, it's the same voice. 00:11:58.640 --> 00:12:00.150 I don't have a special podcast voice. 00:12:01.020 --> 00:12:02.250 I thought that was really cute too. 00:12:03.800 --> 00:12:09.990 Jennifer-Lee: It's so funny that people think that you have different voices for that because I come from radio and everyone's like, do your radio voice. 00:12:09.990 --> 00:12:12.179 I'm like, no, my radio voice is my regular voice. 00:12:12.180 --> 00:12:13.090 Miriam Ingber: It's just my voice. 00:12:13.985 --> 00:12:24.805 Neil McPhedran: Um, I want to circle back on the collaboration, uh, of the quote unquote, non competing as you shared with us. 00:12:24.945 --> 00:12:30.804 But when you concepted this podcast, did you have to convince anyone? 00:12:31.165 --> 00:12:37.805 Sort of administrators or what not to get blessing, for to collaborate on the podcast together? 00:12:37.814 --> 00:12:38.584 Miriam Ingber: We went rogue. 00:12:38.624 --> 00:12:40.574 We did it with no permission from anybody. 00:12:40.785 --> 00:12:41.525 No, I'm just kidding. 00:12:41.555 --> 00:12:42.324 I'm just kidding. 00:12:42.324 --> 00:12:43.724 Don't give me that face Kristi. 00:12:43.805 --> 00:12:49.055 No, we both spoke to our deans who are actually very friendly with each other as well. 00:12:49.055 --> 00:12:49.145 Neil McPhedran: Hm. 00:12:49.175 --> 00:12:54.605 Miriam Ingber: We both spoke to our office of public affairs to make sure that they were on board we, did we speak to the GC? 00:12:54.845 --> 00:12:56.335 Maybe we spoke to the GC too? 00:12:56.555 --> 00:12:57.265 Kristi Jobson: I don't know about that one. 00:12:57.855 --> 00:13:00.135 Miriam Ingber: I don't remember, we got all the appropriate permissions. 00:13:00.135 --> 00:13:02.475 But honestly, no one blanched it at all. 00:13:02.595 --> 00:13:04.265 I think everyone's like, oh, this is really cool. 00:13:04.265 --> 00:13:08.455 It's, you know, the pandemic was a time where people were trying a lot of different things. 00:13:08.474 --> 00:13:13.294 So I don't know how much that played into the flexibility, um, that people had. 00:13:13.294 --> 00:13:22.135 But I think our view that this is not a zero sum game, I think is, is pretty widely shared, uh, among our deans, our colleagues. 00:13:22.265 --> 00:13:35.765 Neil McPhedran: And then not only is it two schools collaborating, but you, as you mentioned, you've, uh, over some of the episodes, you've interviewed other admissions officers from other schools as well, too, so. 00:13:35.925 --> 00:13:43.220 Kristi Jobson: We always had that as part of the vision for the podcast of having kind of guest stars to come in and keep things lively. 00:13:43.400 --> 00:13:46.370 It's a little more, it's fun for us to work with our colleagues. 00:13:46.390 --> 00:13:53.399 And, um, we also were kind of cognizant that maybe listeners would get tired of just our two voices episode after episode. 00:13:53.859 --> 00:14:03.790 And, you know, frankly, it's helpful to have a couple of different perspectives on these topics, because not all schools think about applications quite the same way. 00:14:04.055 --> 00:14:11.984 Not all schools read applications the same way, so we were very intentional about incorporating guests from other schools and from a wide variety of schools. 00:14:12.305 --> 00:14:19.935 So we have everyone from Brooklyn Law to UC Berkeley to UT Austin to Northwestern on our podcast. 00:14:20.454 --> 00:14:21.635 Um, and it was a lot of fun. 00:14:22.215 --> 00:14:23.005 It was really a lot of fun. 00:14:23.205 --> 00:14:30.614 Jennifer-Lee: And for both of you, do you ever find that you learn something new that maybe you'll try in the admissions process from talking to everybody else? 00:14:30.615 --> 00:14:34.424 Or do you find it's pretty standard from every admissions law office? 00:14:35.015 --> 00:14:46.480 Miriam Ingber: I feel like one of my biggest takeaways was despite how different some of our schools are, how similar the underlying values, um, the things that we cared about, the way that we thought about things was. 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:48.500 Of course, everyone's process is different. 00:14:48.510 --> 00:14:54.870 You know, everyone has slightly different priorities, but I was actually most surprised by the similarities rather than the differences. 00:14:56.079 --> 00:14:58.019 I don't know Kristi, if you felt, 00:14:58.020 --> 00:14:58.809 Kristi Jobson: I'd agree with that. 00:15:00.270 --> 00:15:05.930 It's like philosophically, most all of us are really on the same page and the differences are more in the details. 00:15:06.365 --> 00:15:16.685 Neil McPhedran: In listening to a number of the episodes, I, one of the things that really rang out for me was the energy, the humor, the banter that the two of you have. 00:15:16.685 --> 00:15:20.514 And I think we're hearing some of it here in our conversation today. 00:15:21.064 --> 00:15:27.370 Um, uh, so obviously that's, uh, that is for the most part, who you guys are. 00:15:27.370 --> 00:15:44.834 But also, um, going into it when you're kind of thinking about your tone, your voice in the podcast, was that something that's always been since the beginning or is that something you found along the way, or sort of, how did things evolve over the seasons? 00:15:45.495 --> 00:15:49.094 Kristi Jobson: I think we definitely got much more comfortable with recording over time. 00:15:49.294 --> 00:16:00.565 Both with the process of recording, even having those moments where you start a conversation, you realize you want to kind of, it's good content, but you want to state something a little bit differently and cutting. 00:16:00.755 --> 00:16:03.765 We got much better at editing and the value of editing over time. 00:16:04.115 --> 00:16:08.585 And I think we are more conversational as the episodes go on. 00:16:08.905 --> 00:16:14.884 In the first few episodes that we stuck a bit more to kind of the framework and outline plan we had. 00:16:15.274 --> 00:16:26.645 Um, I think just naturally and organically we realized over the, especially recording the first season, that some of the best content that came out of it is when we went offscript, if you will. 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:31.540 Um, when a tangent took us down to, um, a whole different conversation. 00:16:32.069 --> 00:16:39.159 Maybe all of which was cut except for a good ninety seconds, but those ninety seconds really made the episode feel fresh and informative. 00:16:39.489 --> 00:16:42.849 And so we leaned more into that in our second and third seasons. 00:16:43.460 --> 00:16:46.470 And then when we did the live recordings, of course we were live. 00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:49.170 Miriam Ingber: I'll just say two things on that. 00:16:49.180 --> 00:17:01.550 One is these were, we had very detailed scripts and I think that part of what gave us a framework for freedom was knowing exactly what was coming, what we wanted to say, I think that really helped. 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:04.770 And then the banter was sort of in between the points in our script. 00:17:05.179 --> 00:17:16.440 And then I think the other thing that let me at least feel, like I could say whatever I wanted is that I have total trust in Kristi, that if I said later, oh my gosh, I actually don't feel comfortable having that be broadcast. 00:17:16.800 --> 00:17:18.040 She'd be like, oh yeah, no problem. 00:17:18.040 --> 00:17:20.619 Or that she would sometimes say to me, I was listening back, you said this. 00:17:20.620 --> 00:17:22.819 I'm not sure you would want that to be out. 00:17:22.820 --> 00:17:24.049 That could be misunderstood. 00:17:24.330 --> 00:17:35.730 And so I think the fact that we really trust each other and respect each other's judgment also really helps, uh, to feel comfortable kind of taking some risks a little bit, uh, in a structure. 00:17:36.470 --> 00:17:37.930 Jennifer-Lee: You're speaking my language. 00:17:38.030 --> 00:17:39.910 I tell this to people all the time. 00:17:39.910 --> 00:17:45.660 If you want to feel or sound free and loose and casual, you have to do the homework. 00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:46.950 You have to be prepped. 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:50.930 There is no way to sound like that if you don't know what you're doing. 00:17:51.360 --> 00:17:51.860 Miriam Ingber: That's right. 00:17:52.310 --> 00:17:52.909 That's right. 00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:58.030 We had, we just, we had very detailed bullet point by bullet point scripts, and we didn't always use all of it. 00:17:58.040 --> 00:18:02.000 We didn't always, sometimes we would jump around a little bit, but I do agree a hundred percent. 00:18:02.620 --> 00:18:06.309 Uh, and I think that's a separate point, which is how much work a podcast is. 00:18:06.309 --> 00:18:10.189 I think if you want it to be good, and I'm sure you all know that because this is what you do. 00:18:10.649 --> 00:18:12.259 But you know, it is a lot of work. 00:18:12.259 --> 00:18:18.745 And that was another advantage of working with Kristi is I think we really both took on a laboring aura pretty equally. 00:18:19.115 --> 00:18:22.275 Uh, and that let us do, do more because we weren't trying to do it on our own. 00:18:23.475 --> 00:18:25.095 Jennifer-Lee: Did you guys have a team at all help you? 00:18:25.095 --> 00:18:29.234 Or was it just the two of you creating this content and editing it and pushing it out? 00:18:30.155 --> 00:18:34.385 Kristi Jobson: We have a wonderful, wonderful producer who edited everything for us. 00:18:34.385 --> 00:18:36.935 His name's Ryan McEvoy. 00:18:37.985 --> 00:18:39.025 Shout out to Ryan. 00:18:39.115 --> 00:18:40.385 Jennifer-Lee: Wasn't that a tennis player? 00:18:43.014 --> 00:18:43.584 Miriam Ingber: That's different. 00:18:43.614 --> 00:18:46.384 I play tennis and close, but not quite. 00:18:46.424 --> 00:18:46.864 Jennifer-Lee: Oh, okay. 00:18:47.944 --> 00:18:51.744 Miriam Ingber: I did sometimes have someone on my team listen to the final edit. 00:18:52.044 --> 00:18:56.954 Just to make sure that I didn't go rogue as I can sometimes, as Kristi knows, have a tendency to do. 00:18:57.474 --> 00:19:01.474 I would be like, just listen to this and tell me if I said anything that I should not have said. 00:19:01.684 --> 00:19:03.874 And the answer was always like, no, it was totally fine. 00:19:03.884 --> 00:19:07.914 You were okay, but it was nice sometimes just to have a totally objective outsider. 00:19:08.474 --> 00:19:09.554 Give me a gut check. 00:19:09.704 --> 00:19:10.454 Jennifer-Lee: You don't want to get fired. 00:19:12.004 --> 00:19:12.774 Miriam Ingber: Definitely not. 00:19:13.454 --> 00:19:14.594 Kristi Jobson: You definitely don't want to get fired. 00:19:14.964 --> 00:19:19.384 Um, but all of this script writing, all of the conceptualization. 00:19:20.529 --> 00:19:26.419 Definitely each of our teams were kind of helpful in brainstorming, but it was really just the two of us. 00:19:27.249 --> 00:19:46.994 Neil McPhedran: I think there's some really good insights in there for us, just about, you know, especially the, um, the part about, um, as a listener, I listened to the podcast and it just, and you can feel the, as it was, as mentioned, the banter and the comfortableness and the quote unquote ad lib. 00:19:47.274 --> 00:19:56.894 But to hear and to know that you guys were actually on the other end, quite planned out and scripted and thought through and that was liberating. 00:19:56.894 --> 00:20:04.064 I think is a really good insight to, um, you know, for us all, uh, in the space of creating podcasts for sure. 00:20:04.084 --> 00:20:04.344 So. 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:06.079 Um, events. 00:20:06.099 --> 00:20:18.869 Now that is, um, there's a number of episodes, uh, where you're on a live tour and you're actually recording these live events and you're turning that into episodes. 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:31.149 Um, any advice for fellow higher ed podcasters out there who are thinking about incorporating live events into actual podcast recordings? 00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:33.399 Kristi Jobson: I do have some. 00:20:33.459 --> 00:20:41.769 I have, well, there's, I think there's a bunch of things we did well, but there's one thing in particular that I really appreciated listening back to the podcast. 00:20:42.159 --> 00:20:46.159 And that was the incorporation of audience members into the actual audio. 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:48.599 Of course, we warned everybody this is being recorded. 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:53.799 If you get, um, you know, if you get on the microphone, you're going to end up potentially on the podcast. 00:20:53.819 --> 00:20:58.209 But I actually think, um, the audience members really liked that and appreciated it. 00:20:58.619 --> 00:21:02.819 Um, for those who haven't listened to our podcast yet, we always start each episode with a game. 00:21:02.929 --> 00:21:10.579 The game, there's a different game on every single episode and they aim to be both fun and informative about law school admissions. 00:21:10.879 --> 00:21:15.799 And so in that spirit, we did games with all of our, um, our live episodes. 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:17.529 We did two truths and a lie. 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:18.879 What were some of the other ones we did live? 00:21:19.344 --> 00:21:20.864 Miriam Ingber: What else did we do? 00:21:20.904 --> 00:21:21.194 I don't know. 00:21:21.194 --> 00:21:22.324 That's the one that sticks out at me. 00:21:22.324 --> 00:21:25.054 I think we did that one a couple of times because it was so fun. 00:21:25.724 --> 00:21:27.484 Kristi Jobson: We did different truths and lies. 00:21:27.514 --> 00:21:30.984 Miriam Ingber: Different truths and lies for each, for different, different events. 00:21:31.104 --> 00:21:31.474 Yeah. 00:21:31.514 --> 00:21:33.214 Kristi Jobson: But it worked really well live. 00:21:33.554 --> 00:21:43.694 Um, and that was just not only was it really fun in the moment because it kind of kicked off the event with people getting up and guessing. 00:21:44.094 --> 00:21:47.944 But you can really hear in the audio that there's energy in the audience. 00:21:47.984 --> 00:21:49.634 Um, you can hear people laughing. 00:21:49.654 --> 00:21:59.184 Um, and I do think that some of the listeners who later became applicants who were on those live, uh, episodes really appreciated that. 00:22:00.524 --> 00:22:10.054 Miriam Ingber: Yeah, I will say that those episodes are quite different in style than the regular ones because they're much more like a regular information session that we would do live. 00:22:10.344 --> 00:22:21.359 And so instead of focusing in detail on a single topic, which is what most of the other episodes were, they went fairly quickly through the whole, set of admissions topics. 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:24.649 Uh, and each live episode was quite similar to the others. 00:22:24.659 --> 00:22:29.589 Obviously the Q and A was different, the game was different, but the content itself was more similar. 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:32.199 So it was, uh, it was a very different kind of episode. 00:22:32.649 --> 00:22:35.229 Uh, and I think we did, how many did we do, Kristi? 00:22:35.229 --> 00:22:36.289 Five or six of those? 00:22:36.389 --> 00:22:37.979 And I think we only, we recorded a couple. 00:22:38.949 --> 00:22:39.479 We recorded maybe two. 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:47.969 Kristi Jobson: We did two that we recorded in full where we had kind of varied up the, um, the order of the presentation and some of the content. 00:22:48.239 --> 00:22:52.109 So those two you can find completely full, um, from front to back. 00:22:52.459 --> 00:22:55.849 And then the other two we kept the other two live events. 00:22:55.849 --> 00:22:56.089 Miriam Ingber: The games. 00:22:56.089 --> 00:22:57.439 Kristi Jobson: We kept, the games and, 00:22:57.674 --> 00:22:58.214 Miriam Ingber: The Q & A. 00:22:58.294 --> 00:22:59.234 Kristi Jobson: The live Q & A. 00:22:59.534 --> 00:22:59.704 Miriam Ingber: Yeah. 00:22:59.894 --> 00:23:07.939 Kristi Jobson: And I think one of us just recorded an intro saying, you know, for this event in Seattle, a lot of the content in the middle was really similar to our Boston episodes. 00:23:08.014 --> 00:23:11.609 So, we're just gonna do the Q& A and the game. 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:17.799 Um, and that was a, uh, if you will, game time decision that we made when we were editing. 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:23.179 We're like, wow, I don't know if we want to release four of the exact same episodes back to back. 00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:31.554 So it's another piece of advice, I guess, is, uh, um, give yourself permission for your plans to change if you're planning on doing some live recording. 00:23:32.564 --> 00:23:32.904 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:23:32.934 --> 00:23:37.314 And sound is a whole new issue of live recording, but I could go down that rabbit hole forever. 00:23:37.754 --> 00:23:37.964 But 00:23:39.104 --> 00:23:44.124 Miriam Ingber: I think we were lucky because we had a lot of tech support from the law firms, which like very generously hosted us. 00:23:44.134 --> 00:23:52.519 So we mostly were able to outsource that piece to sort of internal experts, which I think really made it possible to do the live recordings. 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:53.799 I don't think we could have done it. 00:23:54.219 --> 00:23:59.619 Certainly if I had been responsible for any part of that, I could barely get my headphones to work today, it would have been a disaster. 00:23:59.619 --> 00:24:04.489 Kristi is better than me, but still maybe that would have been slightly above her pay grade too. 00:24:05.269 --> 00:24:06.439 Jennifer-Lee: It takes a team. 00:24:09.449 --> 00:24:12.219 And it's interesting that you guys are talking about the live events and engagement. 00:24:12.219 --> 00:24:21.359 When you're doing a live recording of a podcast, it really creates a different air and it really engages the audience in a different way, where they get to feel like they're part of something special. 00:24:21.369 --> 00:24:34.429 We were talking to another university here in Canada and they were saying the reason they love going to the podcast was they were doing these archaic events where like people would come in and they wouldn't be mic'd that properly and they would have regular video. 00:24:34.429 --> 00:24:42.799 And then the video really wouldn't translate that well of the panel onto, um, their channels and then people really want to engage with it. 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:48.899 But the fact that you guys are taking your podcast format and bringing people into the show, I think that's a very smart idea. 00:24:50.179 --> 00:24:50.719 Kristi Jobson: Well, thanks. 00:24:51.189 --> 00:24:51.479 Miriam Ingber: Thank you. 00:24:51.899 --> 00:24:52.759 Kristi Jobson: We had a lot of fun. 00:24:53.379 --> 00:24:55.759 We really had a lot of fun with it. 00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:06.269 Neil McPhedran: And in your regular episodes, you're also, you also lead off each episode with a game or like a quiz or like, there's some really interesting things that you did. 00:25:06.269 --> 00:25:14.729 Like I like that was really interesting sort of programming, if you will, in, into the episode, just starting with something quite engaging. 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:26.959 Um, and real actually, so you, like I was listening to one episode where you brought in real excerpts from, uh, admissions and you talked about them and what was real and what wasn't. 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:33.004 Like, so like, you were really opening up the process, I thought there in a fun, in a fun way. 00:25:33.624 --> 00:25:40.734 Miriam Ingber: The games, I think, were sometimes the hardest part of the episode to write because, you know, it was, you had to be really creative often with them. 00:25:40.734 --> 00:25:45.144 But I think that when they worked, and some worked really well, I think some were slightly maybe less successful. 00:25:45.144 --> 00:25:47.784 But I think the ones that worked really well, like really worked. 00:25:48.254 --> 00:25:49.314 Uh, they were really fun. 00:25:49.314 --> 00:25:58.409 You were able to get content out in a really, creative way, which is often, in the law maybe less fun and creative. 00:25:58.469 --> 00:26:00.039 So it was nice to find a way to do that. 00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:08.249 Kristi Jobson: I think it also helps to, from the very beginning, we were like, let's have a real structure for how we want each episode to go. 00:26:09.029 --> 00:26:11.829 And so we all, we thought of each episode as a three part structure. 00:26:12.199 --> 00:26:15.619 Game, content, and then listener Q & A. 00:26:15.879 --> 00:26:27.659 And we invited listeners to submit questions to our joint Gmail, um, and so they could submit those questions that we read, or they could submit a recording of themselves asking a question, which we really liked. 00:26:27.899 --> 00:26:32.329 But that was always sort of the three parts, game, content, Q & A. 00:26:32.649 --> 00:26:38.439 And it helped when it sat down, when we sat down to draft each episode, it really helped to have that structure in mind. 00:26:39.979 --> 00:26:48.869 Jennifer-Lee: Doing a podcast like this, has there been anything that has surprised you as you've gone through this process that maybe you didn't think would happen when you did a podcast? 00:26:50.239 --> 00:26:53.099 Miriam Ingber: I'm shocked by how many people have listened, to be totally honest. 00:26:54.074 --> 00:26:59.244 Like when we got the first, I think someone internally asked, oh, do you know how many people are listening? 00:26:59.244 --> 00:27:00.644 I was like, I have no idea. 00:27:01.254 --> 00:27:05.084 I could be, you know, Kristi's mom and my mom on the first episode. 00:27:05.484 --> 00:27:11.484 And then when we pulled the numbers, I think I was sort of astounded, actually, Kristi at the number of listens that we had. 00:27:12.074 --> 00:27:13.884 Uh, and it was a nice feeling. 00:27:13.884 --> 00:27:15.664 It felt like we had definitely put a lot of work into it. 00:27:15.664 --> 00:27:28.154 You sort of throw it out into this like black hole and you have no idea if it's resonating in any way, if it's going anywhere, and it was really nice that it seemed to be helping people in the way that we had hoped. 00:27:29.174 --> 00:27:38.764 Kristi Jobson: One thing that has surprised me is the extent to which I have needed to become an expert on something I said off the cuff years and years ago. 00:27:38.804 --> 00:27:39.014 Miriam Ingber: Yes. 00:27:39.084 --> 00:27:50.004 Kristi Jobson: Because sometimes at events now or on webinars, people will ask well, in season two, episode four, you made this particular point about letters of recommendation. 00:27:50.024 --> 00:27:54.764 And I'm curious whether that still holds true if X, Y, and Z. 00:27:55.154 --> 00:28:01.834 And I've had this moment off the cuff all the time over the last couple of years where I'm like, what did I say? 00:28:02.404 --> 00:28:09.784 Miriam Ingber: You know what was the most controversial thing I think we ever said, was when we gave advice about when to retake and not retake the LSAT on that first season? 00:28:10.394 --> 00:28:11.234 I forget what we said. 00:28:11.234 --> 00:28:15.374 It was at scores such and such, like probably don't retake it, like it may be questionable. 00:28:15.724 --> 00:28:26.814 And you see that pop up all the time in questions to us in Reddit where they're like, well, they said this, you know, some people are like, so you shouldn't, some people say, oh, they were totally wrong. 00:28:26.824 --> 00:28:31.904 It's like a very tiny moment that I don't think either of us put a ton of thought into. 00:28:32.324 --> 00:28:34.794 And it sort of has taken on a life of its own. 00:28:34.804 --> 00:28:39.464 And in hindsight, I don't, I kind of wish we had not said anything at all. 00:28:39.854 --> 00:28:44.864 It sort of became too big and much bigger than we intended, for certainly than I intended. 00:28:45.674 --> 00:28:48.054 Kristi Jobson: And that was actually a somewhat unscripted moment. 00:28:48.604 --> 00:28:56.439 We had a bullet point about, we were going to talk about retakes and we had some of the thoughts we were going to make sure to get out there. 00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:02.729 Um, but that's sort of, when to retake on a particular number, I think we were just sort of speculating to each other. 00:29:02.729 --> 00:29:03.689 Miriam Ingber: We were spitballing 00:29:03.689 --> 00:29:03.749 Kristi Jobson: Yeah. 00:29:03.769 --> 00:29:13.979 Miriam Ingber: Very generally and now it's become this controversial and sort of, you know, commandment that neither of us really intended. 00:29:13.989 --> 00:29:15.889 So you do have to be, I think, a little bit careful. 00:29:15.889 --> 00:29:18.139 You don't really know what's going to resonate or take hold. 00:29:18.874 --> 00:29:21.174 And if I could take one thing back, it would be that. 00:29:22.214 --> 00:29:22.744 Jennifer-Lee: Good to know. 00:29:22.744 --> 00:29:25.474 Miriam Ingber: I'm sure there's many others, but that's the one that jumps to my mind. 00:29:26.624 --> 00:29:27.704 Jennifer-Lee: You're viral now. 00:29:27.734 --> 00:29:37.794 Um, another thing leading on that though, because you guys have been stopped since the fall, are you finding that you're getting emails being like, come back, create new content? 00:29:38.094 --> 00:29:39.334 Like, where did you go? 00:29:40.724 --> 00:29:46.304 Kristi Jobson: Well, after we finished our third seasons, we did first season fall 2020, second fall 2021. 00:29:46.304 --> 00:29:56.709 And the third, fall 2022, we announced at the beginning of that third season that it would be our final full season and that after that it would be special episodes and special events. 00:29:57.059 --> 00:30:08.120 Um, so, we have definitely had people reach out and hope for us to bring it back, but we're, we feel like we came up with three really excellent seasons worth of content. 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:15.920 Um, and so we're, at least for now our plan is to stick with special events like the live tour and um, special episodes for the next bit. 00:30:16.270 --> 00:30:17.969 Jennifer-Lee: Or creating some more viral moments. 00:30:17.970 --> 00:30:23.470 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, it's, that's a, seems like a really smart strategy. 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.410 You've created this evergreen content. 00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:38.980 You've just told us how up to today, you maybe not exactly today, but metaphorically speaking today, that you get comments, um, people are listening all the way back into the catalog. 00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:40.360 So that's great. 00:30:41.020 --> 00:30:49.220 Do you use specific episodes or things that you refer back to in any of your ongoing communication? 00:30:49.230 --> 00:30:58.205 Like, oh, and also go reference this in season two, where we talked about such and such, or how are you using that, this evergreen content ongoing. 00:30:59.145 --> 00:31:05.955 Miriam Ingber: I think, I don't think I would be able to even remember specific content for specific episodes personally. 00:31:06.314 --> 00:31:23.435 Um, I do think that when we have, we get general questions to the inbox, we have, you know, a little, they're called snippets that someone on the team who was frontline on the inbox can use and one of them, if the questions seem to be pretty high level or pretty introductory, oh, we have this podcast. 00:31:23.435 --> 00:31:24.404 You might want to listen to it. 00:31:24.405 --> 00:31:25.785 There's a lot of good content there. 00:31:26.065 --> 00:31:33.144 And it's still on our website and we certainly hope that it's something that people can continue. 00:31:33.365 --> 00:31:35.345 I mean, lots of things have changed on law school admissions. 00:31:35.345 --> 00:31:45.660 So I do have in my head, at what point do we really have to go back and listen to everything and make sure we still agree with it, that there is some there's stuff in there that, you know, time has overtaken. 00:31:46.130 --> 00:31:49.420 Um, but I don't know that we're quite at that point yet. 00:31:50.430 --> 00:31:54.400 Kristi Jobson: We have these application toolkits for each component of the application. 00:31:54.400 --> 00:32:02.510 So we have an application toolkit for your resume, an application toolkit for your letters of recommendation, um, your written essays that you submit. 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:06.389 And for each of those toolkits, we, I think we link to relevant episodes. 00:32:07.009 --> 00:32:07.379 Um, 00:32:07.529 --> 00:32:08.289 Miriam Ingber: And that's really smart. 00:32:08.635 --> 00:32:09.145 Kristi Jobson: That's helpful. 00:32:09.255 --> 00:32:09.615 Yeah. 00:32:10.855 --> 00:32:14.645 They're useful to have, and I find that my team uses them sometimes too. 00:32:15.065 --> 00:32:29.865 If you get a question in an information session, um, you might answer the question directly and say, and if you want to hear a whole, you know, forty minutes of discussion about personal statements, you should check out this particular set of episodes that Miriam and Kristi did. 00:32:30.595 --> 00:32:35.355 It gives someone some action items and some homework to kind of keep learning more after an event ends. 00:32:35.955 --> 00:32:42.215 Neil McPhedran: Uh, well, that's, uh, that's great looking forward to, uh, future episodes. 00:32:42.215 --> 00:32:49.724 But it's wonderful that you've got that three seasons worth of resources that you can utilize. 00:32:49.725 --> 00:32:53.755 And, um, and then, and people are constantly listening to on ongoing. 00:32:53.755 --> 00:33:05.360 I think that's, um, you know, for, it's for a lot of higher education podcasts, I think that's, it's the type of content that that's being created, it's not news and topical necessarily. 00:33:05.360 --> 00:33:10.530 It's really something that you can lean into and you can use on, ongoing. 00:33:10.530 --> 00:33:25.020 So, um, thank you so much for your time today and for all of your insights and for telling us about your podcast, any sort of last tips you might want to impart upon your fellow higher education podcasters? 00:33:25.295 --> 00:33:30.165 Kristi Jobson: If you are thinking about launching a podcast, get a really good editor that you trust. 00:33:30.395 --> 00:33:38.035 Um, Ryan, our editor, didn't necessarily have, um, he wasn't really involved in the substance and the creation of the content. 00:33:38.375 --> 00:33:43.524 But he was so invaluable in the process of making it really feel coherent as a listener. 00:33:43.654 --> 00:33:43.834 Miriam Ingber: Yeah. 00:33:43.834 --> 00:33:54.410 I think it's important to think through whether you have the bandwidth to commit to something like this and to kind of have a plan, a more long term plan. 00:33:54.620 --> 00:33:57.200 So I think it's easy to say, oh, wouldn't it be fun to do an episode? 00:33:57.210 --> 00:34:02.430 And it is fun to do an episode, but we sort of viewed this as at a minimum, we committed to one season. 00:34:02.540 --> 00:34:06.880 And we sat down and we said, these are going to be the, I think it was eight topics that we're going to do this season. 00:34:07.250 --> 00:34:09.529 And I'm going to take the lead on drafting these four. 00:34:09.529 --> 00:34:10.980 Kristi's going to do these four. 00:34:11.259 --> 00:34:17.130 And we kind of had a sense of when we want, we put together a calendar, when we would record by when we would have drafts by. 00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:21.500 It is a very, uh, rewarding project to do. 00:34:21.530 --> 00:34:27.300 But it's also a lot of work and I think you just have to think about what you're committing to in advance. 00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:28.259 Is it one season? 00:34:28.270 --> 00:34:30.180 We did one and then committed to a second. 00:34:30.469 --> 00:34:38.180 And then Kristi sort of twisted my arm to do a third and then we kind of knew that would be it and then the live stuff was just sort of a fun add on. 00:34:38.610 --> 00:34:43.940 But I do think as Kristi said, you need to have the resources to support you. 00:34:43.940 --> 00:34:54.050 You need to have your own time, which is always at a premium in any job, that you're willing to commit to it and kind of think about it from, uh, from the top down before you dive in to the small stuff. 00:34:54.190 --> 00:34:55.270 Kristi Jobson: I have one related tip. 00:34:55.490 --> 00:34:59.009 Don't necessarily blow all of your content in the first season. 00:34:59.309 --> 00:35:17.219 We almost kind of made that mistake, but I, by the time we'd recorded a couple of episodes I think we were thinking maybe this could be a multi season arc, so we kind of parking lotted a bunch of different ideas with the thought of we don't need to necessarily cover this in this season because we might have a second. 00:35:17.790 --> 00:35:20.790 And we went back to that parking lot of ideas. 00:35:20.790 --> 00:35:27.390 It was just the shared Google Doc where we kind of dropped all of these one off concepts that we haven't covered in the first season. 00:35:27.830 --> 00:35:33.230 And it was so invaluable in storyboarding out what the second season would look like and the whole arc. 00:35:33.970 --> 00:35:38.995 Miriam Ingber: And then I, that made me think of one other thing, which is to really let the content drive the podcast. 00:35:39.535 --> 00:35:44.415 So, you know, there were episodes that we started writing them up and there just wasn't enough there to even be a full episode. 00:35:44.475 --> 00:35:45.705 So we would mush them together. 00:35:45.935 --> 00:35:56.314 Or resumes comes to mind where there was so much content and we had such a good guest host that we ended up making into two episodes because we felt like we had so much to say and that there was, you know, more we could share on it. 00:35:56.604 --> 00:35:59.045 And so I do think it's a little bit of flexibility. 00:35:59.145 --> 00:36:04.065 And you kind of don't know until you start to write it down, what you have to say, whether it's going to work. 00:36:04.535 --> 00:36:11.805 And I think we were both really good at you know, changing midstream as we needed to make sure that, that it would be successful. 00:36:12.265 --> 00:36:14.925 Jennifer-Lee: I love that you guys knew when to stop, too. 00:36:14.925 --> 00:36:18.505 The thing is, just because you have a podcast doesn't mean it needs to be ten seasons. 00:36:18.525 --> 00:36:20.114 If it's three seasons, that's great. 00:36:20.425 --> 00:36:26.985 But the problem is most people don't stop properly or they only start a few episodes and they don't continue on. 00:36:26.985 --> 00:36:29.810 So I think what you guys have been doing is brilliant. 00:36:29.830 --> 00:36:35.800 And also knowing that it's a strategy, it's part of a strategy for marketing the admissions process for both schools. 00:36:36.050 --> 00:36:46.870 And a lot of times people don't think when they're creating a podcast, whether it be personal, business, uh, university, college, what the goal is around the podcast, and you guys did it. 00:36:46.870 --> 00:36:48.570 And that's why it's successful. 00:36:48.890 --> 00:36:53.540 Is because you guys prepped it, you thought about it and you knew when to stop. 00:36:53.590 --> 00:36:59.800 And I know when to stop for this interview, which is we're wrapping it up. 00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:03.940 Miriam Ingber: Thanks for having us. 00:37:03.940 --> 00:37:05.200 This was a pleasure. 00:37:05.590 --> 00:37:06.500 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, that was really nice. 00:37:06.500 --> 00:37:07.900 Thank you so much for sharing so much. 00:37:07.900 --> 00:37:08.560 Jennifer-Lee: We learned so much. 00:37:08.570 --> 00:37:13.105 I want to apply to law school, even though I don't, but you guys made me feel inspired. 00:37:13.875 --> 00:37:15.605 Kristi Jobson: Well, we look forward to reading your application soon. 00:37:16.365 --> 00:37:16.795 Jennifer-Lee: There we go. 00:37:16.885 --> 00:37:19.245 Miriam Ingber: Good luck with that 00:37:19.245 --> 00:37:21.695 Neil McPhedran: Oh my goodness. 00:37:25.165 --> 00:37:26.285 Okay, Jen, that was great. 00:37:26.355 --> 00:37:28.004 Uh, I learned a lot. 00:37:28.065 --> 00:37:29.914 I know you probably learned a lot. 00:37:30.005 --> 00:37:43.925 Miriam and Kristi, they are fun and it's obvious in chatting with them, and the conversation we had with them just now, that is why their personalities come out, uh, on their podcasts, um, themselves. 00:37:44.625 --> 00:37:45.755 Jennifer-Lee: And they're just great friends. 00:37:45.785 --> 00:37:48.865 And that's just something that I talk about to a lot of people. 00:37:48.865 --> 00:37:52.105 I said, if you want to do a co hosting podcast, you've got to have that spark between you. 00:37:52.105 --> 00:37:56.904 You don't necessarily have to know each other as long as Kristi and Miriam did or do. 00:37:57.045 --> 00:37:59.325 But, uh, you have to have something that connects you. 00:37:59.345 --> 00:38:04.455 And even after our call, it was cute because they're like, oh, are you going to be there at Tuesday for this conference? 00:38:04.455 --> 00:38:05.145 Well, I am. 00:38:05.535 --> 00:38:09.715 So you can really see that bond and it shines through and that's why their podcast is successful. 00:38:10.405 --> 00:38:11.165 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, yeah. 00:38:11.185 --> 00:38:14.735 And there were some really good, um, uh, tips there. 00:38:14.755 --> 00:38:19.985 I thought there was like, you know, multiple insights for us to learn from. 00:38:20.435 --> 00:38:38.645 Um, I really appreciated, especially, um, and I know you did too, the part where they talked about how they were quite scripted, really spent a lot of time up front thinking about like what the episode was going to be about, um, and so on and so forth, and scripting it and planning it. 00:38:38.975 --> 00:38:47.465 Um, but that allowed them to have that extra personality and that allowed them to ad lib more and what not. 00:38:47.635 --> 00:38:52.640 And I think that there's this thought out there that, well, we need to ad lib. 00:38:52.650 --> 00:38:53.860 We don't need to script it. 00:38:53.870 --> 00:38:54.740 We're just going to wing it. 00:38:54.740 --> 00:38:59.030 And, you know, we don't want feedback that it sounds like we're reading off of a script or whatever. 00:38:59.030 --> 00:39:04.940 But really shows you the opposite, that that show is just full of personality and full of banter. 00:39:05.009 --> 00:39:20.560 You know, for them to tell us and to share with us that no, no, we were super scripted, really rings through to some of the advice that we give to, I know the shows we work with Jen, about the importance of planning and scripting ahead of time. 00:39:21.240 --> 00:39:30.060 Jennifer-Lee: I can't stress it enough, and I'm glad that they finally brought that to attention, because I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there, not just in higher ed podcasting space but in a lot of podcasting space. 00:39:30.130 --> 00:39:36.840 And the reason people are at the top of the podcasting game is exactly what they talk about is scripting. 00:39:37.069 --> 00:39:41.580 That's what makes you sound casual, not just turning on a mic and not knowing what to say. 00:39:41.700 --> 00:39:44.160 And of course, always knowing how to end. 00:39:44.300 --> 00:39:45.080 Neil McPhedran: Not so fast. 00:39:45.120 --> 00:39:51.260 We had promised an update on our journey to infuse Podcasting 2.0 into Continuing Studies. 00:39:51.450 --> 00:39:58.400 So as we said, in each episode, we're going to be adding this quick little segment that's going to focus on one feature that we've updated. 00:39:58.470 --> 00:40:03.270 And we're going to just talk to you about how that process went on our end and what that means. 00:40:03.310 --> 00:40:07.969 So the good thing is, we use Transistor.fm for our hosting platform. 00:40:08.329 --> 00:40:14.200 And Transistor actually already supports nine Podcasting 2.0 elements, tags. 00:40:14.410 --> 00:40:22.220 Including chapters, person tag, pod role, OP3 analytics, pod ping, and the transcript tag, just to name a few. 00:40:22.230 --> 00:40:28.199 So, we've got a long runway of things we can utilize just by default with Transistor.fm. 00:40:28.350 --> 00:40:47.070 So in this first segment, we're going to focus on transcripts, or the transcript tag, as this is a key one that's quite prevalent and is actually the first element the Apple podcast app has adopted and has good support across many of the hosting platforms. 00:40:47.090 --> 00:41:00.860 I'd actually also argue that it's quite important for higher ed, the transcript tag that is, where a lot of the institutions have a mandate or a best practice to include transcripts and closed captioning for accessibility. 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:04.950 So this is a key one, I think, for all of us higher ed podcasters. 00:41:05.129 --> 00:41:13.545 Now, full disclosure, we have been including transcripts in every episode since we launched Continuing Studies, but we weren't fully doing it right. 00:41:13.555 --> 00:41:17.145 And so this process actually has helped us do it properly. 00:41:17.145 --> 00:41:18.165 And we're going to share that with you. 00:41:18.285 --> 00:41:20.725 Now, there's a ton of other amazing apps. 00:41:20.725 --> 00:41:25.135 I know we're going to talk about Apple this time, but there's a ton of other amazing apps that also support transcripts. 00:41:25.145 --> 00:41:26.925 So we'd encourage you to seek one of those out. 00:41:26.935 --> 00:41:32.005 For example, TrueFans, Podcast Guru, Podcast Addict, Castomatic, Podcast, just to name a few. 00:41:32.265 --> 00:41:40.674 PodcastIndex.org, we'll link to that in our show notes, has a great resource of all the apps, hosts, and directories utilizing Podcasting 2.0. 00:41:41.795 --> 00:41:43.515 We'll talk about that a bunch probably. 00:41:43.945 --> 00:41:44.235 Okay. 00:41:44.275 --> 00:41:50.305 So as I said, we're going to focus on Apple as it's, it is the most popular app that has adopted the transcript tag. 00:41:50.575 --> 00:41:54.395 I'd also, if you haven't checked it out in Apple, I encourage you to check it out in action. 00:41:54.454 --> 00:41:57.124 It's quite slick, actually. 00:41:57.154 --> 00:42:00.924 The audio and transcript sync up so you can read along with the audio. 00:42:00.925 --> 00:42:03.015 The words kind of like light up and move along. 00:42:03.015 --> 00:42:04.345 It's pretty cool actually. 00:42:04.465 --> 00:42:06.865 You can even search by phrase, by word. 00:42:07.075 --> 00:42:13.875 So, really, uh, interesting opportunity there, and I would say, especially for academia. 00:42:14.065 --> 00:42:18.054 Some really cool opportunities, I think, the, uh, the transcript tag. 00:42:18.515 --> 00:42:20.455 Okay, so where were we going wrong? 00:42:20.725 --> 00:42:22.185 We being Continuing Studies. 00:42:22.435 --> 00:42:30.655 So up until this episode you're listening to right now, we've been posting our transcripts as a TXT file, a text file. 00:42:31.355 --> 00:42:38.500 So we go into Transistor, we drop, we've already been doing our transcripts, human proofread, et cetera. 00:42:38.510 --> 00:42:40.790 And then we're dropping them in there as a TXT file. 00:42:41.040 --> 00:42:46.769 So not fully wrong, but it's not optimized for Apple and some of the other apps. 00:42:46.869 --> 00:42:50.979 Apple actually has a really good resource page that we're going to link to in our show notes. 00:42:50.990 --> 00:42:52.019 So check that out. 00:42:52.089 --> 00:42:58.775 It's for podcasters and it's for making sure you're got everything dialed for, um, transcripts. 00:42:59.145 --> 00:43:16.235 So there's one thing you need to do before you get the ball rolling with Apple is you need to go into your Apple Connect account, update in the transcript settings and your settings section there, you'll see there's an update for transcripts, and you want to hit the toggle that says display transcripts I provide. 00:43:16.585 --> 00:43:20.685 Or auto generated transcripts by Apple if one isn't provided. 00:43:20.925 --> 00:43:25.935 The default in Apple is they're going to, if you're choosing transcripts, they're going to, they're going to generate them for you. 00:43:26.165 --> 00:43:37.285 We want them using our proofread version of the transcript that has all the accurate speaker names, designations, everything's spelled properly. 00:43:37.485 --> 00:43:39.175 Basically, we're in control. 00:43:39.855 --> 00:43:42.904 It's not some AI that is serving it up. 00:43:43.085 --> 00:43:44.665 We want to hit that toggle. 00:43:44.704 --> 00:43:45.474 It's a one time thing. 00:43:45.475 --> 00:43:48.085 Once you've done it, you're off to the, you're off to the races. 00:43:48.335 --> 00:43:52.295 Okay, so now, next thing is, I mentioned the TXT file. 00:43:52.345 --> 00:44:01.045 Files that Apple says we should lean into and most other apps is called, there's a VTT or an SRT file. 00:44:01.375 --> 00:44:04.165 And actually the VTT is the best option. 00:44:04.165 --> 00:44:07.075 It's the most robust, it has the most metadata infused. 00:44:07.085 --> 00:44:08.355 So that's the one we're going with. 00:44:08.755 --> 00:44:10.895 We used a Descript for our transcripts. 00:44:11.120 --> 00:44:14.720 There's a bunch of other options out there that I'm sure that you use. 00:44:14.750 --> 00:44:20.490 I think most of them, uh, if not all of them, have options for all of these different, uh, versions. 00:44:20.510 --> 00:44:29.080 So once you've got your proofread transcript, um, for us in Descript, then we exported it out of Descript as a VTT file. 00:44:29.290 --> 00:44:29.680 Okay. 00:44:30.630 --> 00:44:35.880 Then we upload that into, um, that VTT file into transistor. 00:44:35.950 --> 00:44:39.630 So just like we've already been doing, we just, we're doing the wrong file format. 00:44:39.810 --> 00:44:46.479 And then now it's going to be rocking and rolling and ready for Apple and all the other apps to recognize. 00:44:46.479 --> 00:44:53.820 And they're going to be grabbing that proofread transcript that, um, that, uh, we, uh, designated. 00:44:55.250 --> 00:44:55.760 There you have it. 00:44:56.080 --> 00:44:57.990 Not really a ton of extra work. 00:44:58.150 --> 00:45:01.500 Transcript tag, check, we've sorted it out on our end. 00:45:01.510 --> 00:45:02.720 You can sort it out on your end. 00:45:02.720 --> 00:45:03.779 I'd really encourage you to do that. 00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:07.110 So please reach out with any questions or suggestions. 00:45:07.420 --> 00:45:10.830 We'd love to hear about your Podcasting 2.0 journey. 00:45:11.049 --> 00:45:13.560 Our email is in the show notes. 00:45:13.790 --> 00:45:19.605 Okay, next up, we're going to explore chapters in our next episode. 00:45:19.605 --> 00:45:20.715 So stay tuned for that. 00:45:20.975 --> 00:45:21.235 Okay. 00:45:21.235 --> 00:45:22.814 Now, Jen, read us out. 00:45:23.274 --> 00:45:28.014 Jennifer-Lee: So thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies Podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters. 00:45:28.375 --> 00:45:31.185 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:45:31.194 --> 00:45:37.420 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform, so you never miss an episode. 00:45:37.450 --> 00:45:45.730 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested in higher education podcasts. 00:45:45.730 --> 00:45:54.700 We also invite you to join your peers on higheredpods.com, where you can connect with other podcasters in higher education and learn from others in the field. 00:45:54.820 --> 00:45:56.560 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:45:56.560 --> 00:46:02.380 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations around a higher education podcast. 00:46:02.380 --> 00:46:03.610 See you in the next episode.