WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.050 --> 00:00:06.420 ​ Colin: Welcome to Build and Learn. 00:00:06.420 --> 00:00:07.230 My name is Colin. 00:00:07.725 --> 00:00:11.385 CJ: And I'm CJ and we are excited to sit down with Alan Trive today, 00:00:11.385 --> 00:00:14.235 the founder and CEO of En Groc. 00:00:14.235 --> 00:00:15.165 We're gonna talk about. 00:00:15.365 --> 00:00:17.675 The future of software development. 00:00:17.675 --> 00:00:20.585 We're gonna talk about how Enro is solving all of your problems and 00:00:20.945 --> 00:00:24.995 abstracting away the tricky parts of networking and building your application. 00:00:25.265 --> 00:00:28.055 We'll talk about global ingress and lots of other fun stuff. 00:00:28.115 --> 00:00:29.705 So let's get into the episode. 00:00:31.890 --> 00:00:34.771 Colin: A lot of our clients were like, Hey, we have Salesforce and we. 00:00:35.270 --> 00:00:38.720 have these new iPhone things that came out and we want an app that's, 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:42.450 tying into our C R M and our cms. 00:00:42.450 --> 00:00:45.480 And so it was doing a lot of, early web hook stuff. 00:00:45.530 --> 00:00:49.220 a lot of pubsub, hubub and like integrations and getting into 00:00:49.220 --> 00:00:52.750 ultimately what brought me into Techstars was we were trying to build 00:00:52.810 --> 00:00:54.820 what eventually became like Zapier. 00:00:55.360 --> 00:00:58.300 a little bit more like a SendGrid for integrations though, or Twilio, 00:00:58.300 --> 00:01:02.190 like you drop us into your code base and turns out, you have to 00:01:02.190 --> 00:01:05.610 raise a lot of money for people to want to drop an entire integration 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:07.650 framework into their code base. 00:01:07.650 --> 00:01:10.980 But, yeah, mostly a lot of the things that you guys have run into 00:01:10.985 --> 00:01:14.460 with like web hooks.fyi and things where it's like everyone does this 00:01:14.460 --> 00:01:18.360 differently and so we're gonna make the one API that standardizes 00:01:18.360 --> 00:01:20.260 all of it and turns out, in 20. 00:01:20.635 --> 00:01:21.565 12 you. 00:01:21.805 --> 00:01:23.905 It just wasn't the same as it is today. 00:01:23.905 --> 00:01:28.285 And now you have like APIs coming out that are trying to do this again, 00:01:28.825 --> 00:01:32.545 like Merge and Finch and all these different apps that are going after, 00:01:32.545 --> 00:01:33.980 these are all the payroll APIs. 00:01:33.980 --> 00:01:35.750 Here's one API to do all payroll APIs. 00:01:36.080 --> 00:01:38.730 We were like trying to do all of them and it was just a lot. 00:01:39.330 --> 00:01:44.670 And I think that's where I, I've been in the webhooks Google group since whenever, 00:01:44.670 --> 00:01:46.470 at first, whenever Jeff started that. 00:01:46.470 --> 00:01:49.890 So it's I've just been like on the edges of just watching, 00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:51.640 message passing on the internet. 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.200 Just still the same, still happens still, 00:01:54.790 --> 00:01:56.110 Alan: hasn't changed too much. 00:01:56.110 --> 00:01:56.320 Yeah. 00:01:56.320 --> 00:01:57.100 Do you know Jeff? 00:01:57.660 --> 00:01:58.560 Colin: just a little bit. 00:01:58.590 --> 00:02:02.925 we've got some like shared, co-working background and web hooks and things, 00:02:02.980 --> 00:02:03.280 Alan: yeah. 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:04.840 I worked with Jeff back at Twilio. 00:02:05.020 --> 00:02:05.895 yeah, it's interesting. 00:02:05.900 --> 00:02:09.795 That's, it's definitely interesting, what you're talking about, a building, an API 00:02:09.795 --> 00:02:12.195 that like covers up, a bunch of APIs. 00:02:12.455 --> 00:02:12.745 It's. 00:02:13.012 --> 00:02:17.376 Kind of like the industry creating a standard or someone in the industry 00:02:17.886 --> 00:02:20.076 trying to create a standard api. 00:02:20.736 --> 00:02:23.166 I'm pretty skeptical of those. 00:02:23.766 --> 00:02:27.526 I think, if you look at technologies like. 00:02:28.861 --> 00:02:32.931 Terraform where it would've been really easy for them to say there's 00:02:32.931 --> 00:02:38.211 a storage bucket resource and we'll abstract it over GCP and Azure and aws. 00:02:38.571 --> 00:02:43.041 And they like explicitly chose not to do it because I think they recognized, 00:02:43.041 --> 00:02:47.231 and I think a lot of other people have recognized that it is very, very 00:02:47.231 --> 00:02:50.351 hard to abstract around those APIs. 00:02:50.411 --> 00:02:52.061 It's incredibly hard. 00:02:52.111 --> 00:02:52.501 You'd need 00:02:52.501 --> 00:02:58.101 something to be like almost, purely a commodity and very little differentiation 00:02:58.131 --> 00:02:59.871 before that thing starts to make sense. 00:03:01.341 --> 00:03:04.521 Colin: and most of those services are trying to differentiate, and so they all 00:03:04.521 --> 00:03:06.261 come out with what makes them different. 00:03:06.261 --> 00:03:06.591 And then 00:03:06.651 --> 00:03:07.141 Alan: Exactly. 00:03:07.581 --> 00:03:08.461 So you're not aligned. 00:03:08.461 --> 00:03:08.741 right. 00:03:09.636 --> 00:03:12.516 Um, which is, which is really interesting as well. 00:03:13.186 --> 00:03:15.491 CJ: Even with even with standards like OAuth, right? 00:03:15.491 --> 00:03:19.481 Like I assume you're running into that now trying to build like the OAuth 00:03:19.481 --> 00:03:22.451 pieces to the ngrok infrastructures. 00:03:22.451 --> 00:03:23.891 oh yeah, we wanna do OAuth. 00:03:23.891 --> 00:03:26.531 But everyone does it just a little bit differently with little different 00:03:26.531 --> 00:03:29.801 scopes and a little different, like data you get back and a little bit of 00:03:29.801 --> 00:03:33.101 different, is it in the header or is it in like the response or whatever? 00:03:33.151 --> 00:03:35.551 Yeah, just trying to paper over that seems impossible. 00:03:36.181 --> 00:03:36.841 Alan: Yeah. 00:03:36.931 --> 00:03:40.461 it's interesting, just for those listening, EDRO, has added some 00:03:40.466 --> 00:03:43.221 recent capabilities where you can basically put OAuth in front of 00:03:43.281 --> 00:03:45.531 anything that you expose via edro. 00:03:45.531 --> 00:03:48.381 You basically tell it, put Google in front and it will 00:03:48.771 --> 00:03:50.511 OAuth or redirect you to Google. 00:03:50.511 --> 00:03:50.931 and then back. 00:03:51.381 --> 00:03:54.451 we've implemented a number of different providers, for OAuth. 00:03:54.511 --> 00:03:57.701 And you're right, that it's interesting the OAuth spec. 00:03:58.856 --> 00:04:04.046 Is mostly followed by everyone to the point where like you can pretty much build 00:04:04.046 --> 00:04:05.816 the same thing and it works for everyone. 00:04:06.266 --> 00:04:09.866 The place where all the providers differ is around things that 00:04:09.871 --> 00:04:13.706 the spec very explicitly says, this is not our problem, right? 00:04:13.706 --> 00:04:17.316 this is implementation defined, and so like you go figure it out. 00:04:18.226 --> 00:04:21.346 and so that makes sense that everyone like has diverged there 00:04:21.346 --> 00:04:22.936 into like slightly different ways. 00:04:23.386 --> 00:04:26.776 And for the identity piece, of course, like a bunch of folks got together and 00:04:26.776 --> 00:04:31.426 said cool, let's standardize the scopes and the thing that's returned into what 00:04:31.426 --> 00:04:37.566 has become open, ID connect, on top of OAuth, but even within the, so like within 00:04:37.566 --> 00:04:40.897 the spec, yes, there are some places where it definitely differs a little bit. 00:04:41.146 --> 00:04:46.316 the place where we saw the most deviation from the spec was, air codes. 00:04:46.901 --> 00:04:47.621 Air codes are the 00:04:47.621 --> 00:04:48.911 least well followed thing, 00:04:49.171 --> 00:04:49.831 in the spec. 00:04:51.731 --> 00:04:58.236 They're the place where the spec says what is correct, or like what is to be expected 00:04:58.446 --> 00:05:00.976 and the least people actually implement it correctly. 00:05:01.006 --> 00:05:05.371 Whereas scopes, everyone does a different thing, but the spec says, You 00:05:05.371 --> 00:05:06.631 can do whatever you want with scopes. 00:05:06.631 --> 00:05:08.351 They're entirely yours to define. 00:05:08.381 --> 00:05:09.161 So that makes sense. 00:05:09.161 --> 00:05:09.491 But the 00:05:09.491 --> 00:05:12.431 air codes are one where the spec has some opinions and it's still 00:05:12.431 --> 00:05:13.721 not tremendously well followed. 00:05:14.936 --> 00:05:20.426 CJ: I watched some of your talk at that conference about error handling, 00:05:21.076 --> 00:05:24.716 and I'm curious if this was like part of it, but basically that like I feel 00:05:24.716 --> 00:05:27.596 like errors are so often just like a. 00:05:28.111 --> 00:05:28.651 a second. 00:05:29.071 --> 00:05:32.576 I don't know, the, it's like a last minute thing that, yeah, it's an afterthought. 00:05:32.576 --> 00:05:35.006 And Deb's tried to throw it in like at the last second, oh, let's 00:05:35.011 --> 00:05:36.266 add some air handling or whatever. 00:05:36.926 --> 00:05:40.406 But the reality is that they should be treated as a first class citizen, 00:05:40.411 --> 00:05:42.936 the same way you're treating a return type or whatever from any method. 00:05:43.996 --> 00:05:47.286 Alan: it's one of the things that I'm most proud of about, the internal architecture 00:05:47.286 --> 00:05:49.626 of Enro is our error handling system. 00:05:50.156 --> 00:05:52.936 Every, and I think I talk about it a little bit at, In 00:05:52.936 --> 00:05:54.406 the talk from that conference. 00:05:54.456 --> 00:05:56.456 but I don't go into, quite a lot of detail. 00:05:56.456 --> 00:06:00.936 There is every single error that N Rock returns and every one of them. 00:06:00.936 --> 00:06:02.886 Every, sorry, user facing error. 00:06:02.891 --> 00:06:06.786 Something that we expect a user to see has a unique error code 00:06:06.876 --> 00:06:08.152 that is defined in we have a. 00:06:08.787 --> 00:06:12.282 Essentially like a big manifest where every single error that the product 00:06:12.282 --> 00:06:16.622 returns is defined in there, which is at this point, like thousands, right? 00:06:16.692 --> 00:06:18.342 and so there's a unique code for everyone. 00:06:19.092 --> 00:06:25.092 And our system basically like reads that manifest and then like code generates 00:06:26.092 --> 00:06:30.372 type safe findings to all the different languages, that we use internally. 00:06:30.992 --> 00:06:34.657 For folks to spit out, errors that, use that particular, format. 00:06:35.627 --> 00:06:39.762 it's really meaningful because, those, the things that are returned are objects 00:06:39.767 --> 00:06:42.642 that are specially annotated, so you know that they're a user facing air code. 00:06:42.642 --> 00:06:44.732 So all the air handling can treat them differently. 00:06:45.022 --> 00:06:50.932 There can be special metrics around them and really, really beneficial from a. 00:06:52.092 --> 00:06:55.107 You know, from a product management standpoint of like, you can go and 00:06:55.107 --> 00:06:57.507 like into our observability and you're like, what do people, what's 00:06:57.507 --> 00:06:59.247 the air people hit the most cool. 00:06:59.247 --> 00:07:00.147 we know, right? 00:07:00.147 --> 00:07:02.037 Like we absolutely know exactly what that is. 00:07:02.037 --> 00:07:04.467 We know the biggest stumbling block to using the product. 00:07:04.927 --> 00:07:09.862 and so if you think about like growth or just, user experience, understanding what. 00:07:10.587 --> 00:07:13.197 What people are doing wrong is, is super helpful. 00:07:13.767 --> 00:07:16.867 the other place where it really, provides a tremendous amount of benefit 00:07:16.867 --> 00:07:21.977 is, from a customer success, customer support standpoint of, what we're 00:07:21.982 --> 00:07:26.747 trying to do there is make sure that when people write in, there's nothing 00:07:26.747 --> 00:07:29.717 more frustrating than getting an error report where someone's it doesn't work. 00:07:29.747 --> 00:07:33.147 And here's vaguely the error that I got, and you're like, I can't help you. 00:07:33.177 --> 00:07:36.457 Like I have to like, send you a bunch of emails to ask you like how 00:07:36.457 --> 00:07:37.957 to duplicate it and please tell me. 00:07:38.327 --> 00:07:38.567 but when 00:07:38.567 --> 00:07:42.527 people send us an air code, we know exactly like the line of code where 00:07:42.527 --> 00:07:46.282 like they, they encountered the air, which is really beneficial to getting 00:07:46.282 --> 00:07:47.902 quickly to the root of the problem. 00:07:48.532 --> 00:07:51.232 so couple, couple huge benefits that way. 00:07:51.262 --> 00:07:52.812 And the last one is, really. 00:07:53.782 --> 00:07:56.337 Developers, like when we encount an air message, like what is the 00:07:56.337 --> 00:07:57.597 first thing that you guys do? 00:07:57.697 --> 00:08:00.577 you copy and paste that thing into Google and you're like, what? 00:08:00.582 --> 00:08:01.357 What shows up? 00:08:01.407 --> 00:08:04.342 and we wanted those things to be unique strings that you could 00:08:04.342 --> 00:08:06.832 put into Google that no one else on the internet would have. 00:08:07.192 --> 00:08:10.432 So you put them into Google and you get back like our air pages where we can give 00:08:10.432 --> 00:08:13.612 you like the best documentation, tell you exactly like what went wrong and how 00:08:13.617 --> 00:08:16.462 to help yourself get out of whatever, you know, area you were encountering. 00:08:17.557 --> 00:08:18.097 Colin: That's awesome. 00:08:18.097 --> 00:08:18.277 Yeah. 00:08:18.277 --> 00:08:23.437 I think a lot of people think of like an API or software as like having a contract 00:08:23.437 --> 00:08:27.307 and we think about all the things that can go right, but we don't spend as much time 00:08:27.307 --> 00:08:31.537 thinking about, like you just mentioned, to the error codes, the contract of 00:08:31.537 --> 00:08:33.157 what happens when something's wrong. 00:08:33.257 --> 00:08:38.027 how do we help write a guide or even just include the information 00:08:38.027 --> 00:08:40.247 in the error itself on what. 00:08:40.597 --> 00:08:41.287 What is missing? 00:08:41.287 --> 00:08:42.697 What needs to happen next? 00:08:43.127 --> 00:08:46.257 having written lots of APIs, it's okay, if I'm trying to create 00:08:46.257 --> 00:08:48.447 something, what do we send back? 00:08:48.447 --> 00:08:51.507 If you're missing data, what do we send back if it's already been 00:08:51.507 --> 00:08:55.557 created, like the, obviously we have HTTP status codes and things, but even 00:08:55.557 --> 00:08:57.312 those can be, pretty vague at times. 00:08:57.632 --> 00:09:00.582 And you gotta come up with these like first class. 00:09:00.712 --> 00:09:01.657 Error objects. 00:09:01.687 --> 00:09:04.837 I know some APIs and client libraries do a really good job of this. 00:09:04.837 --> 00:09:08.947 and it's obviously you guys have a high, high bar for that developer 00:09:08.947 --> 00:09:10.177 experience when you do that. 00:09:10.667 --> 00:09:11.757 since we're just jumping in here. 00:09:12.872 --> 00:09:15.182 would love to just set the stage for people who might 00:09:15.182 --> 00:09:16.412 not know what ING Groc is. 00:09:16.412 --> 00:09:18.722 I think most people aren't familiar with it. 00:09:18.722 --> 00:09:24.162 for things like local ingress for, I have a rail server running on port 3000 00:09:24.162 --> 00:09:27.487 and I want to op, add that to the web. 00:09:27.487 --> 00:09:29.927 I wanna expose that to, to receive web hooks. 00:09:29.947 --> 00:09:34.537 Or maybe I want to have a preview app so that CJ can go hit this endpoint 00:09:34.537 --> 00:09:36.247 and view the app that I'm running. 00:09:36.982 --> 00:09:38.182 But what would you add to that? 00:09:38.182 --> 00:09:40.042 what does enro look like today? 00:09:40.442 --> 00:09:41.882 and what are developers using it for? 00:09:43.087 --> 00:09:44.192 Alan: thanks so much for that intro. 00:09:44.192 --> 00:09:45.277 That's, really helpful. 00:09:45.457 --> 00:09:48.627 yeah, en groc, that's definitely where En Groc started was, about. 00:09:48.957 --> 00:09:51.597 Where we started was web hook development and testing. 00:09:51.647 --> 00:09:54.147 I started my professional career at Twilio, one of the 00:09:54.147 --> 00:09:57.067 companies on the forefront of using web hooks to drive behavior. 00:09:57.577 --> 00:10:01.107 And, just, it was a frustrating experience to develop with, develop 00:10:01.107 --> 00:10:04.107 on that platform if you couldn't get those web hooks directly to 00:10:04.107 --> 00:10:05.397 things that were running locally. 00:10:06.367 --> 00:10:07.627 over the years, what we. 00:10:07.957 --> 00:10:13.627 What we found and discovered was if you think more broadly about that 00:10:13.627 --> 00:10:19.627 problem that Enro was solving, Enro was creating ingress to your local. 00:10:20.247 --> 00:10:21.087 machine, right? 00:10:21.087 --> 00:10:24.867 It was accepting traffic from the internet and it was routing it to the application 00:10:24.867 --> 00:10:26.217 that was running on your laptop. 00:10:26.547 --> 00:10:30.327 But that's really just one specific problem in a more general problem, 00:10:30.327 --> 00:10:33.477 which is how do I get traffic from the internet and send it to my 00:10:33.477 --> 00:10:35.577 application running anywhere, right? 00:10:35.577 --> 00:10:38.337 It could be running on my laptop, it could be running on my raspberry pie. 00:10:38.487 --> 00:10:43.017 It could be running in a container in a CI job for 30 minutes, or it could be running 00:10:43.017 --> 00:10:46.817 in production, serving I don't know, all of reddit.com or whatever it happens to 00:10:46.817 --> 00:10:49.187 be, but like fundamentally the problem. 00:10:49.427 --> 00:10:53.807 Of getting traffic in from the internet and routing it to your application is the 00:10:53.807 --> 00:10:57.937 same no matter, sorry, it is different, but the kind of like fundamental primitive 00:10:57.937 --> 00:10:59.952 that you use to do it, is the same. 00:11:00.432 --> 00:11:05.032 in, interestingly, I guess I'll walk that back a little bit, is that, that, 00:11:05.182 --> 00:11:10.947 what's happening is very similar, but the tools that developers have, to use 00:11:10.977 --> 00:11:14.217 to actually make it happen in those like four different scenarios that I 00:11:14.222 --> 00:11:16.977 outlined are all wildly different, right? 00:11:17.037 --> 00:11:21.327 and that's really where we've moved over time is, to start handling this 00:11:21.332 --> 00:11:24.737 production traffic to being part of your, production infrastructure, your 00:11:24.737 --> 00:11:29.057 CI infrastructure to create ingress to your applications no matter when 00:11:29.057 --> 00:11:30.707 or how or where they're running. 00:11:30.712 --> 00:11:32.727 It doesn't matter what platform or any of that. 00:11:32.777 --> 00:11:36.137 it's very frustrating for developers to have something that works in 00:11:36.137 --> 00:11:38.597 development and not being able to take it to production, have to like 00:11:38.597 --> 00:11:41.927 invent something entirely new to get there, and that's really what we're, 00:11:42.137 --> 00:11:43.337 we're trying to solve for folks. 00:11:44.417 --> 00:11:46.097 CJ: It seems like the messaging. 00:11:46.457 --> 00:11:47.267 That. 00:11:47.387 --> 00:11:51.027 I think a lot of people are still thinking when they hear Enro, they 00:11:51.027 --> 00:11:54.237 continue to think of like, how do I build a local tunnel to my machine? 00:11:54.237 --> 00:12:00.297 But I think the key sort of message that I have heard, like the shift is oh, Enro 00:12:00.327 --> 00:12:02.967 isn't just for local development anymore. 00:12:03.277 --> 00:12:07.647 Like Enro can be used anywhere to do this global ingress to your application. 00:12:07.647 --> 00:12:12.582 So you can like, Stop worrying about your whatever reverse proxy solution 00:12:12.582 --> 00:12:14.352 that you're cobbling together instead. 00:12:14.762 --> 00:12:17.602 is that accurate that you could think of enro maybe the way that I 00:12:17.822 --> 00:12:20.852 think of it as another way to do the same thing that N Engine X might do. 00:12:21.592 --> 00:12:25.702 And obviously as someone who wants to spend time building on the 00:12:25.702 --> 00:12:29.902 web, I am not fiddling with devs. 00:12:29.902 --> 00:12:34.377 Like I actually hate N Engine X just because it's such a pain to, to 00:12:34.437 --> 00:12:39.147 get everything right and, so yeah, just how can we think about Enoc 00:12:39.447 --> 00:12:41.517 relative to a tool like Engine X? 00:12:42.547 --> 00:12:43.507 Alan: that's a really good intro. 00:12:43.607 --> 00:12:47.322 yeah, what we're calling Enro is ingress as a service, right? 00:12:47.322 --> 00:12:52.602 It is, it is that piece of getting traffic into your network, and or into your 00:12:52.602 --> 00:12:57.203 application and basically running it as a globally distributed service for you. 00:12:57.362 --> 00:12:58.952 you were asking about nGenx. 00:12:58.952 --> 00:13:02.542 It's interesting that is, if you're like putting applications out on the internet, 00:13:02.542 --> 00:13:04.822 that is certainly a piece, right? 00:13:04.822 --> 00:13:07.782 Where That you're using to do it, but you often have a 00:13:07.782 --> 00:13:08.952 number of other pieces, right? 00:13:08.952 --> 00:13:12.192 You're layering in front maybe a content delivery network. 00:13:12.372 --> 00:13:15.852 You're maybe layering in front some kind of, DDoS protection. 00:13:16.252 --> 00:13:19.372 you may be layering in front, some kind of like caching proxy. 00:13:20.142 --> 00:13:24.097 You might have an identity aware proxy to do some piece of authentication for you. 00:13:24.667 --> 00:13:27.097 You often have like layer four firewall rules. 00:13:27.157 --> 00:13:31.417 You have ips and TLS certificates, and maybe an integration with Let's 00:13:31.417 --> 00:13:35.317 Encrypt and the list goes on where you're like, as a, I remember, being, 00:13:35.407 --> 00:13:39.202 baby application developer, like back in the day and learning, Apache 00:13:39.202 --> 00:13:43.672 and then Engine X to put my web applications on the internet and just 00:13:43.672 --> 00:13:46.612 being frustrated that it was something that like I didn't want to learn. 00:13:47.132 --> 00:13:51.437 And I didn't like, it wasn't like core to the thing that I was doing that I wanted 00:13:51.437 --> 00:13:53.297 to deliver, which was the application. 00:13:53.417 --> 00:13:57.257 And that's really the power is like we're, enro is talking about collapsing 00:13:57.467 --> 00:14:02.267 all of those into a unified layer that is tremendously developer friendly for 00:14:02.267 --> 00:14:05.837 you to basically put your application on and on the internet, in a way that 00:14:05.837 --> 00:14:09.417 you want, secured in the way that you want, without you having to worry 00:14:09.417 --> 00:14:11.277 about all of those low level pieces. 00:14:12.192 --> 00:14:16.479 The analogy that, we've been using is that to put applications on the internet. 00:14:16.489 --> 00:14:20.419 you're working with, like the assembly language of networking. 00:14:20.579 --> 00:14:23.009 you're really working with a lot of these low level primitives 00:14:23.009 --> 00:14:25.665 like DNS and tcp, and, ips and. 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:29.129 TLS certificates and things that as an application developer like 00:14:29.309 --> 00:14:30.899 you don't really care about, right? 00:14:30.899 --> 00:14:35.579 you want a domain with, you know, an HTPs s certificate in front of it to receive 00:14:35.579 --> 00:14:39.799 the traffic closest to your customers and maybe enforce some policy, some 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:41.269 authentication and things like that. 00:14:41.659 --> 00:14:44.959 But the infrastructure run it and the configuration to it should be. 00:14:45.334 --> 00:14:47.284 A lot simpler than it is right now. 00:14:47.344 --> 00:14:50.864 And we're, what we think we're doing, at enro is really building 00:14:51.314 --> 00:14:54.914 that high level language to abstract that, assembly language. 00:14:55.736 --> 00:15:01.066 CJ: I feel like there is a trend in modern development where it's Let's 00:15:01.066 --> 00:15:05.836 give you these drop-in tools or drop-in components that replace like a lot of work 00:15:05.836 --> 00:15:07.156 that you otherwise would've had to do. 00:15:07.186 --> 00:15:12.256 So on the, for the Stripe example, you're getting these embedable payment 00:15:12.256 --> 00:15:15.736 components where you can just drop in some React component and that will 00:15:16.006 --> 00:15:18.557 give you these secure eye frames that. 00:15:19.216 --> 00:15:23.176 Will handle lots of like validation and collecting different payment 00:15:23.176 --> 00:15:26.866 method types and localizing, and it's like offloading a lot of the 00:15:26.866 --> 00:15:29.086 work of collecting payment to Stripe. 00:15:29.446 --> 00:15:34.441 And in this case it's like offloading a lot of the network level things to 00:15:34.501 --> 00:15:38.096 en groc where you can just install this agent, set up some connect 00:15:38.096 --> 00:15:40.536 handlers and, it seems like you've got. 00:15:40.546 --> 00:15:42.106 Go and rust. 00:15:42.106 --> 00:15:46.096 And I saw some hints of maybe JavaScript coming soon. 00:15:46.466 --> 00:15:50.936 so it's a couple of lines that you add when you're setting up your server that's 00:15:50.936 --> 00:15:55.766 gonna listen and then from there en rock will handle abstracting away or offloading 00:15:55.771 --> 00:15:58.286 like all of this other complexity. 00:15:58.676 --> 00:16:04.076 And one of the things that I'm like curious to double click on is, The, the, 00:16:04.226 --> 00:16:08.546 I think you call them points of presence maybe, or the global globally distributed 00:16:08.546 --> 00:16:12.716 concept here, and like, how should we think about that relative to like edge 00:16:12.716 --> 00:16:19.586 functions or Dino deploy or, like having, yeah, having your, your, your application 00:16:19.586 --> 00:16:24.896 deployed to the edge versus having ingress happening at the edge and then routing 00:16:24.896 --> 00:16:30.161 that to some server that might be, Living in Virginia or Washington or something. 00:16:30.381 --> 00:16:31.221 Alan: that's a good question. 00:16:31.411 --> 00:16:31.741 you're right. 00:16:31.741 --> 00:16:33.331 We've built the Go and Rust SDKs. 00:16:33.331 --> 00:16:34.651 We're working on a couple of other ones. 00:16:34.651 --> 00:16:37.531 Those are a more modern way of using NRO that, I don't think a 00:16:37.531 --> 00:16:40.561 lot of people are familiar with, where you're basically embedding 00:16:40.566 --> 00:16:42.181 NRO directly into your application. 00:16:42.186 --> 00:16:45.106 You don't have this, if you're like used to using it, you used to have a separate 00:16:45.106 --> 00:16:48.546 executable that you would download and now you have a library where you basically, 00:16:49.721 --> 00:16:54.251 Ask and it returns to something that looks and feels exactly like a socket object. 00:16:54.351 --> 00:16:56.061 but it's not listening on a local port. 00:16:56.061 --> 00:16:58.881 It's listening on all of our global points of presence all around the world. 00:16:59.811 --> 00:17:03.556 in terms of like how to think about it versus edge functions, or like 00:17:03.596 --> 00:17:05.806 deploying your application to the edge. 00:17:06.286 --> 00:17:07.366 what I would say is. 00:17:08.146 --> 00:17:11.986 When you're building an application, sometimes deploying applications 00:17:11.986 --> 00:17:14.826 to the edge makes sense, and sometimes like having them, not 00:17:14.826 --> 00:17:16.476 deployed to the edge makes sense. 00:17:16.526 --> 00:17:20.016 deploying them to the edge comes with, basically puts you in the space of as 00:17:20.016 --> 00:17:22.666 soon as you have to talk to storage, you have the problem of cool, I have a 00:17:22.666 --> 00:17:24.346 globally distributed storage problem. 00:17:24.976 --> 00:17:27.976 r really, I think where we're going to end up. 00:17:28.661 --> 00:17:30.916 Is, there are two possible futures there. 00:17:31.126 --> 00:17:36.126 One is, one in which like our storage layers become so good that 00:17:36.131 --> 00:17:39.906 we can run our entire applications like fully distributed at the edge. 00:17:39.906 --> 00:17:43.476 And like all of the synchronization problems happen in like this 00:17:43.481 --> 00:17:44.666 global storage layer, right? 00:17:44.806 --> 00:17:48.526 Of what is like the next iteration of something like spanner and is it good 00:17:48.526 --> 00:17:52.091 enough that We can commoditize it and give developers really simple APIs 00:17:52.091 --> 00:17:55.871 where they can just call this stuff anywhere around the world and give 00:17:55.871 --> 00:17:57.881 them, hopefully the right APIs to make. 00:17:57.911 --> 00:18:01.181 Cuz you know, even with a system like Spanner, you still, the application 00:18:01.186 --> 00:18:04.811 developer is making the, like the kind of like cap theory trade-offs, right? 00:18:04.811 --> 00:18:05.831 Of do I want consistency? 00:18:05.831 --> 00:18:07.416 Do I want, availability, partition tolerance. 00:18:08.606 --> 00:18:09.296 that's one world. 00:18:09.576 --> 00:18:15.076 the other is, that we think about applications being, a little more. 00:18:15.851 --> 00:18:18.876 Amorphous in terms of being able to be split between an origin 00:18:18.876 --> 00:18:22.956 application and a piece of it that it, it pushes out to the global edge. 00:18:23.016 --> 00:18:25.446 And like right now, I think a lot of developers are thinking about those 00:18:25.446 --> 00:18:30.106 in like separate ways, but, one of the things that we're really excited 00:18:30.111 --> 00:18:33.286 about, things like the End Rock SDKs allowing you to do is you can 00:18:33.286 --> 00:18:37.486 specify a lot of the configuration in those SDKs and they get pushed. 00:18:37.881 --> 00:18:38.956 To our global edge. 00:18:39.276 --> 00:18:43.271 and that's something that's like a stark contrast to like setting things up with 00:18:43.271 --> 00:18:48.031 a technology like engine X or something like that in that the application in our 00:18:48.031 --> 00:18:50.971 world has control over the edge, right? 00:18:50.971 --> 00:18:54.881 It has a defined API to say, like, when I come online, like the. 00:18:55.786 --> 00:19:00.596 The reverse proxy, the ingress point is an extension of the application. 00:19:00.596 --> 00:19:03.896 I have an API to set up and control that in the way that I want. 00:19:04.456 --> 00:19:08.266 and I think that will get us into a world where applications, Can push 00:19:08.266 --> 00:19:12.736 configuration and logic, basically having like pieces of wassom or stuff 00:19:13.036 --> 00:19:16.196 that they're like, yeah, you can execute this out at the global edge because, it 00:19:16.196 --> 00:19:19.406 doesn't require like stateful handling or it requires a minimal amount of local 00:19:19.406 --> 00:19:20.966 stateful handling or things like that. 00:19:21.396 --> 00:19:24.576 and so we're we'll end up giving developers a little bit more of a 00:19:24.576 --> 00:19:27.996 seamless experience where they have the control to basically decide, this stuff 00:19:27.996 --> 00:19:29.876 runs there and this stuff runs, here. 00:19:30.893 --> 00:19:31.278 CJ: Got it. 00:19:31.684 --> 00:19:35.999 So you could terminate, ssl, and you can do your authentication checks and you can. 00:19:37.309 --> 00:19:41.894 Do some basic things at the edge, and then once you've handled that, then 00:19:42.494 --> 00:19:45.464 and when you're ready to talk to the database, then you could like, all 00:19:45.464 --> 00:19:50.194 right, now we will make the trek, the tcp trek all the way across the 00:19:50.194 --> 00:19:53.539 internet and talk to the underlying the underlying application server. 00:19:54.819 --> 00:19:56.404 Alan: Yeah, that, that may be the right model. 00:19:56.404 --> 00:19:57.394 It may not be the right model. 00:19:57.394 --> 00:20:00.544 it's a little hard to say at, at this point, but, I think it's 00:20:00.544 --> 00:20:03.654 like one of those two models or like a hybrid of them where you're 00:20:03.654 --> 00:20:05.484 pushing like some control out there. 00:20:05.594 --> 00:20:07.994 cuz like at the end of the day you're just making these trade 00:20:07.999 --> 00:20:11.084 offs about, you're just making distributed systems trade-offs, right? 00:20:11.139 --> 00:20:14.499 Have you guys like, in, in your development, it sounds like we 00:20:14.504 --> 00:20:16.564 were talking a little bit at the beginning about, the kind of, 00:20:16.614 --> 00:20:17.784 development that you're doing. 00:20:18.144 --> 00:20:21.584 CJ you said you were doing a lot of kind of like web application development, a 00:20:21.584 --> 00:20:25.224 lot of, backend stuff, things like Ruby on Rails, but also some front end pieces. 00:20:25.614 --> 00:20:28.564 And Colin, you said you, you'd been doing, some similar things as well. 00:20:28.564 --> 00:20:31.244 I'm curious, do both of you like have that experience of working 00:20:31.244 --> 00:20:34.084 with, with those kind of, of like setting that stuff up yourselves? 00:20:34.084 --> 00:20:36.484 Or did you end up like working with other people who would 00:20:36.484 --> 00:20:37.684 set those things up for you? 00:20:38.133 --> 00:20:42.553 Colin: For me it was, usually I'm the one on a team, like for 00:20:42.583 --> 00:20:43.813 consulting and things like that. 00:20:43.813 --> 00:20:48.373 Before I was at Orbit, it was not having an infrastructure or DevOps team. 00:20:48.373 --> 00:20:49.903 So I was doing everything myself. 00:20:50.473 --> 00:20:54.553 And you really get to learn and appreciate like, All the things that 00:20:54.613 --> 00:20:58.303 not only do you have to learn them once, but you have to learn them for each 00:20:58.303 --> 00:21:02.003 clot provider or each, infrastructure stack that you're working with. 00:21:02.003 --> 00:21:05.553 So the, and then you end up feeling like you're learning this stuff over 00:21:05.553 --> 00:21:09.723 again each time, or there's like a small differentiation that makes this one better 00:21:09.728 --> 00:21:11.493 than the other one that you used to is. 00:21:12.033 --> 00:21:15.513 and so I do like that idea, like standardizing it cuz we're seeing a lot. 00:21:16.293 --> 00:21:19.653 It'll be interesting to see, like a lot of things have been being 00:21:19.753 --> 00:21:21.193 automated, I guess is the right word. 00:21:21.193 --> 00:21:24.313 But like with GitHub co-pilot and LLMs, like everyone's so excited about 00:21:24.318 --> 00:21:27.213 the idea that we're gonna not have to write every line of code anymore. 00:21:27.213 --> 00:21:28.088 But it's guess what? 00:21:28.088 --> 00:21:32.748 There's now even more infrastructure and more tools and more stuff in between 00:21:32.748 --> 00:21:37.248 those apps that we have to deal with there's definitely a lot of tools that 00:21:37.248 --> 00:21:41.838 I'm starting to see that with like secure data transfer and stuff like that. 00:21:41.838 --> 00:21:43.638 It's I definitely don't wanna do that myself. 00:21:44.108 --> 00:21:47.468 if you were to build an app like a WhatsApp today with having like 00:21:47.498 --> 00:21:51.653 end-to-end encryption between two people talking back and forth, and that might 00:21:51.653 --> 00:21:53.753 be a product someone builds today. 00:21:53.758 --> 00:21:54.623 Like what? 00:21:54.828 --> 00:21:57.138 Tech stack makes sense there. 00:21:57.268 --> 00:21:59.938 it's not quite the same thing that we're talking about today around local 00:21:59.938 --> 00:22:03.958 tunneling and things like that, but it is a very similar thing where it's 00:22:03.958 --> 00:22:08.418 let's say GitHub co-pilots helping me build a chat app with like sockets and 00:22:08.418 --> 00:22:11.298 things like that, you're in, you're probably building a very insecure. 00:22:11.973 --> 00:22:15.703 chat app to start or, internet of Insecure things would be. 00:22:15.703 --> 00:22:20.203 The other way to think of it is like a lot of things get shipped with not a lot of 00:22:20.203 --> 00:22:22.033 thought around the security piece of it. 00:22:22.463 --> 00:22:25.223 and so I'm really excited to see like what things we can 00:22:25.223 --> 00:22:27.288 do to help automate and read. 00:22:27.898 --> 00:22:31.508 We, approach those things, so that they don't have to be scary. 00:22:31.508 --> 00:22:34.808 I think, like I try not to do the DevOps stuff these days. 00:22:35.208 --> 00:22:40.663 I think the jokes of dev, oops, engineer more than DevOps, its like, what check, 00:22:40.693 --> 00:22:42.643 what one thing did I forget to look at? 00:22:42.643 --> 00:22:47.033 What one, one setting did I forget that, I'm thinking that I'm secure, but 00:22:47.033 --> 00:22:50.473 like the front door's wide open, even though I followed like this long list of 00:22:50.893 --> 00:22:53.023 security and ingress, like checklists. 00:22:53.543 --> 00:22:57.523 CJ: to give some people nightmares, I think Back in the day, I would 00:22:57.523 --> 00:23:01.213 go on Digital Ocean and spin up a droplet and then just SSH into it and 00:23:01.213 --> 00:23:05.743 manually set up, passenger and engine X and Apache, like all these things. 00:23:05.743 --> 00:23:08.233 And like immediately started getting hacked. 00:23:08.893 --> 00:23:11.328 Like just started to get pummeled by spammers and whatever. 00:23:12.308 --> 00:23:17.048 And then, if we, rewind even further, I remember setting up, like on Windows 00:23:17.048 --> 00:23:21.558 server, like setting up IIS to like, open up certain ports so that they can 00:23:21.558 --> 00:23:25.553 like, talk to different applications and, someone re goes down into the 00:23:25.553 --> 00:23:29.993 basement and restarts the physical machine that was running Windows server. 00:23:30.353 --> 00:23:32.623 It's okay, we've come a long way since then. 00:23:32.623 --> 00:23:33.423 And, even back. 00:23:33.903 --> 00:23:36.673 pre this is pre and, en rock. 00:23:36.673 --> 00:23:37.153 I'm sure. 00:23:37.333 --> 00:23:41.833 It was like, oh, if I want to show someone my local running web application, 00:23:41.833 --> 00:23:46.603 I'm gonna log into my, lo my router and set up, nat address forwarding 00:23:46.603 --> 00:23:50.443 so that I can like, poke a hole in my home router so that people can hit my 00:23:50.448 --> 00:23:52.473 machine on, port 80, 80 or whatever. 00:23:52.803 --> 00:23:57.203 So I think y most recently I've been really depending a lot on 00:23:57.443 --> 00:24:02.423 tools like Heroku and tools like Versace to manage most of that. 00:24:02.423 --> 00:24:08.088 And like more recently using things like CloudFlare to provide, these really fancy 00:24:08.808 --> 00:24:13.758 SSL termination things where I can have wildcard domains and set up all of this, 00:24:14.058 --> 00:24:18.458 I don't know, more advanced infrastructure for building a platform, but, for the 00:24:18.458 --> 00:24:21.548 most part, yeah, it's been one of those things where I've been bitten so many 00:24:21.548 --> 00:24:27.838 times by building insecure surfaces that, I now try to just, stay in my lane and 00:24:27.888 --> 00:24:29.988 build tools closer to the front end. 00:24:29.988 --> 00:24:33.318 Then, then, yeah, I then I thought that I could back in the day, I dunno, may, 00:24:33.378 --> 00:24:38.089 maybe now I can just drop in en gro Ruby and, depend on the security and 00:24:38.148 --> 00:24:42.103 let Alan do all the heavy lifting of figuring out how to not get attacked. 00:24:42.503 --> 00:24:44.233 Alan: that's really what we want, folks to do. 00:24:44.233 --> 00:24:48.343 We, the reason, the kind of like engineer that I've been for a very long time, and 00:24:48.343 --> 00:24:52.513 the thing that like really has always made me excited is about building a. 00:24:53.173 --> 00:24:57.513 Tools and platforms and infrastructure for developers so that there's nothing more 00:24:57.513 --> 00:25:00.843 exciting than for me than like solving problems and watching developers like 00:25:00.843 --> 00:25:02.853 never have to deal with them ever again. 00:25:02.963 --> 00:25:07.273 and that's, that ethos is really what started N Groc and it's what continues it 00:25:07.303 --> 00:25:11.453 today is, how do we take these problems away, so that, folks don't have to 00:25:11.453 --> 00:25:14.453 like, think about the things that they definitely don't wanna be thinking about. 00:25:15.623 --> 00:25:15.773 CJ: For 00:25:15.878 --> 00:25:18.878 Colin: Yeah, and a lot of us have these experiences of tinkering 00:25:18.883 --> 00:25:20.443 and learning and I do wonder. 00:25:20.803 --> 00:25:23.713 Because a lot of these newer tools make it a little bit harder to tinker. 00:25:23.713 --> 00:25:28.333 Like it's amazing to be able to deploy to, a render a fly, but you're not 00:25:28.333 --> 00:25:32.633 actually messing with the digital ocean box like you, were talking about there. 00:25:32.633 --> 00:25:34.673 But where do you then learn these things? 00:25:34.678 --> 00:25:38.573 Because I don't like someone coming out of a bootcamp might learn the 00:25:38.578 --> 00:25:42.593 application stack, but they're not necessarily getting a lot of time or 00:25:42.593 --> 00:25:44.603 experience with some of this other stuff. 00:25:44.663 --> 00:25:46.443 And, I haven't seen. 00:25:46.498 --> 00:25:50.968 Too many dev like DevOps boot camps or security boot camps, things like that. 00:25:50.998 --> 00:25:53.748 cause that would even like a finishing school for security, right? 00:25:53.758 --> 00:25:58.838 it's something that I would take just to know what gaps do I have in my knowledge. 00:25:58.838 --> 00:26:02.439 Because very similarly, like anything, we used to do a lot of WordPress stuff 00:26:02.444 --> 00:26:09.118 and Any website with a slash WP admin was just going to be added to a list that 00:26:09.118 --> 00:26:10.888 was gonna get attacked at some point. 00:26:11.318 --> 00:26:15.938 and then you start tinkering around with Apache or Engine X and things like that. 00:26:16.338 --> 00:26:18.683 but you actually could, it's kinda like tinkering with cars like 00:26:18.688 --> 00:26:21.953 you used to be able to actually work on your car and today. 00:26:22.108 --> 00:26:24.148 Very difficult to work on your own car. 00:26:24.148 --> 00:26:28.198 And as we get to EVs and things, it's gonna be near impossible too, especially 00:26:28.198 --> 00:26:33.213 when, those cars are mostly software and, a whole bunch of batteries, But, it, it'll 00:26:33.213 --> 00:26:36.768 be interesting to see like where this goes and what sorts of things, change. 00:26:36.788 --> 00:26:39.248 Is there anything that like you're particularly excited about? 00:26:39.888 --> 00:26:45.078 Alan, as far as like maybe future looking things or, not necessarily 00:26:45.138 --> 00:26:48.048 add and groc or if there's stuff that you guys are cooking up over there. 00:26:48.648 --> 00:26:51.218 Alan: Oh man, there's so much to be excited about today. 00:26:51.378 --> 00:26:54.508 one of the things that's really excited about is that, it's interesting what 00:26:54.508 --> 00:26:58.548 you said about, folks don't have, they don't, someone coming out of bootcamp 00:26:58.548 --> 00:27:00.378 may not learn a lot of those things. 00:27:00.978 --> 00:27:01.878 that's true. 00:27:02.738 --> 00:27:03.888 But maybe that's okay. 00:27:04.068 --> 00:27:07.218 Like maybe we're like headed for a world where really that's okay. 00:27:07.268 --> 00:27:10.988 and if you like rewind a little bit, you're like, most developers like today 00:27:11.018 --> 00:27:14.918 don't think about like memory management, but we're all like, that's a nice thing. 00:27:14.998 --> 00:27:17.218 Mo most of us don't really want to think about that. 00:27:17.318 --> 00:27:20.203 and most of us don't think in assembly language anymore, and 00:27:20.203 --> 00:27:21.673 like maybe that's okay too. 00:27:22.093 --> 00:27:26.343 so I, I don't know it, there, there are always these sets of problems that. 00:27:27.658 --> 00:27:31.293 Every, everything in, in software engineering is a leaky abstraction. 00:27:31.353 --> 00:27:34.293 When your problem gets thorny enough where you're like, I gotta 00:27:34.293 --> 00:27:37.348 go below, I gotta understand like the piece underneath and the piece 00:27:37.348 --> 00:27:38.478 underneath and the piece underneath. 00:27:39.148 --> 00:27:43.178 but I think, as the industry has matured and our tools and our infrastructure 00:27:43.178 --> 00:27:47.198 has gotten better, we have gotten to a place where you have to get 00:27:47.198 --> 00:27:48.998 into those layers less and less. 00:27:49.028 --> 00:27:50.018 Just because we've gotten. 00:27:50.333 --> 00:27:53.873 We've hardened those under underlying layers and made the APIs to them so 00:27:53.873 --> 00:27:55.223 much better than they used to be. 00:27:55.733 --> 00:27:59.358 And I'm optimistic that a lot of this stuff will, move 00:27:59.358 --> 00:28:00.828 in that direction as well. 00:28:00.918 --> 00:28:05.248 And that a lot of the problems that we solve today of that, you would do 00:28:05.248 --> 00:28:09.858 in like a DevOps finishing school if one existed, are things that I hope 00:28:09.863 --> 00:28:13.038 the next generation dev developers like never has to think about. 00:28:13.088 --> 00:28:15.348 and that there, there are a few of us who like. 00:28:15.713 --> 00:28:18.743 Spend our time there and that, if people want to like, understand 00:28:18.743 --> 00:28:21.383 those things, just like if someone like wants to go and understand the 00:28:21.383 --> 00:28:25.643 details of the Linux kernel, they can, but if they're like building web 00:28:25.643 --> 00:28:29.193 applications, like they shouldn't have to and we shouldn't expect them to. 00:28:29.463 --> 00:28:30.183 so I don't know. 00:28:30.233 --> 00:28:36.613 I'm optimistic and excited about a future where, those are, those become details 00:28:36.613 --> 00:28:37.993 that folks don't have to think about. 00:28:37.993 --> 00:28:41.963 So I'm really excited about this, new generation of, NextGen Heroku 00:28:42.193 --> 00:28:45.223 folks who are thinking about, applications as a service again. 00:28:45.733 --> 00:28:45.953 and. 00:28:46.828 --> 00:28:47.493 Yeah, I don't know. 00:28:47.543 --> 00:28:48.533 I'm excited about that. 00:28:48.773 --> 00:28:49.733 What else am I excited about? 00:28:49.733 --> 00:28:51.893 There's a lot to be excited about in software engineering. 00:28:52.263 --> 00:28:55.108 web assembly is certainly an area that's obviously really exciting. 00:28:55.608 --> 00:28:59.968 obviously LMS and ML in general are, a really cool area to be excited about too. 00:29:00.028 --> 00:29:01.134 So there's a lot that's going on. 00:29:01.718 --> 00:29:05.738 CJ: One of the things that I've noticed over the last, probably two 00:29:05.743 --> 00:29:10.088 years-ish, is that there are a lot of new developers coming online that 00:29:10.088 --> 00:29:13.508 are building with tools like Relet where they're actually like building 00:29:13.513 --> 00:29:18.408 something in the cloud and running it in the cloud, and that is where they're. 00:29:18.893 --> 00:29:20.633 Hosting it and deploying it and everything. 00:29:20.633 --> 00:29:21.983 It's like part of rep. 00:29:22.403 --> 00:29:26.933 And so I'm curious, if you have any intuition or if you've seen the same 00:29:26.938 --> 00:29:33.648 thing, around like the future of this next gen of developers and will they just Yeah. 00:29:33.703 --> 00:29:36.913 do we think everything is just gonna be some cloud-based i d e and you 00:29:36.913 --> 00:29:41.783 just say go, and then it's running like for you and anyone can use it. 00:29:41.903 --> 00:29:42.293 I don't know. 00:29:42.293 --> 00:29:42.953 Especially like. 00:29:43.778 --> 00:29:47.228 They have that ghost writer, kind of their version of copilot that's built in. 00:29:47.228 --> 00:29:50.288 So I don't know, there's some really cool stuff happening over there. 00:29:50.438 --> 00:29:55.148 . Alan: this is, this is the space of replica and code spaces and glitch 00:29:55.178 --> 00:29:57.268 and that kind of like set of tools. 00:29:57.958 --> 00:29:58.528 they're exciting. 00:29:58.528 --> 00:30:03.208 in general, I think as an industry we should be tremendously excited about 00:30:03.568 --> 00:30:07.208 anything that lowers the barrier to entry to creating new, new software. 00:30:07.308 --> 00:30:09.408 and so in general, like. 00:30:09.708 --> 00:30:11.958 that's what we're doing at Enro is trying to lower that barrier 00:30:11.958 --> 00:30:14.838 to entry, to like building applications and getting them online. 00:30:15.318 --> 00:30:19.813 and, really excited that you can use Enro with platforms like Rep and Glitch 00:30:19.813 --> 00:30:23.383 and things like that to get yourself this, global ingress with, functionality 00:30:23.388 --> 00:30:24.553 that can push out to the edge. 00:30:25.543 --> 00:30:27.793 But in general, like. 00:30:28.183 --> 00:30:31.633 Anything that lets people like lower the vari entry and create new software 00:30:31.633 --> 00:30:36.013 and get more people into, to the space being creative and building new stuff. 00:30:36.223 --> 00:30:38.543 I think, that's one of the things that's most exciting about our 00:30:38.548 --> 00:30:41.723 industry is getting to see all the people experimenting with all of 00:30:41.723 --> 00:30:45.073 the new and cool ways that, we could potentially build software together. 00:30:45.078 --> 00:30:46.278 That's all really exciting to me. 00:30:47.343 --> 00:30:51.588 Colin: Yeah, I think we like to geek out on the tools and the processes and things, 00:30:51.588 --> 00:30:55.718 but ultimately we're doing all of this to build like a product for customers, right? 00:30:55.718 --> 00:30:59.368 And so sometimes it's Does the customer actually know how we're getting 00:30:59.368 --> 00:31:00.778 the web hooks delivered to the app? 00:31:00.838 --> 00:31:01.618 They do not care. 00:31:02.078 --> 00:31:04.088 they just want the outcome, right? 00:31:04.088 --> 00:31:08.783 The, if it's a dog walking app, they, or, Uber, your Uber driver's showing up. 00:31:08.788 --> 00:31:11.753 Like you want to get a notification when that's happening and, 00:31:12.393 --> 00:31:13.623 they're not worried about what. 00:31:14.343 --> 00:31:15.873 the infrastructure looks like underneath. 00:31:15.873 --> 00:31:19.873 So I think, we tr we've been thinking in this show in terms of like, how do 00:31:19.873 --> 00:31:24.223 we build and learn, as developers, like how do we develop ourselves, not just 00:31:24.623 --> 00:31:28.403 yes we can go learn new languages and things like that, but it's like, what 00:31:28.408 --> 00:31:31.613 other things are we bringing to the table and think, like thinking about product 00:31:31.613 --> 00:31:35.963 and the developer experience all the way down to what error codes do we get? 00:31:36.333 --> 00:31:37.953 You know that's the same for a product. 00:31:37.953 --> 00:31:41.103 if your Uber card just doesn't show up, you can't just say 00:31:41.108 --> 00:31:42.333 something happened, right? 00:31:42.333 --> 00:31:45.153 It's gotta be like, why did the car not show up? 00:31:45.603 --> 00:31:46.803 And what can I do about it? 00:31:46.808 --> 00:31:48.183 Who can I reach out to? 00:31:48.553 --> 00:31:52.528 An Airbnb got canceled on me for this weekend and it was like, You know, you get 00:31:52.528 --> 00:31:55.548 a text that's your Airbnb was canceled, and then you're like, great, now I gotta 00:31:55.548 --> 00:31:59.748 go, follow the, literally the stack trace of okay, go click on the link. 00:31:59.748 --> 00:32:02.178 Let's go open Airbnb, let's go find out what happened. 00:32:02.178 --> 00:32:07.538 And, that is so far removed from whatever tech stack Airbnb is using under the Hut. 00:32:07.598 --> 00:32:12.408 So, um, definitely as you're listening to this, remember who you're building for, 00:32:12.408 --> 00:32:15.318 remember what you're building, like what problem you're trying to solve for, and, 00:32:15.908 --> 00:32:19.943 use tools like incorrect to Get rid of some of those things, the headaches, or 00:32:19.943 --> 00:32:23.673 at least make them standardized so that, on the next project you work on, you 00:32:23.673 --> 00:32:25.733 have, a tool that you can reach for sure. 00:32:26.618 --> 00:32:28.628 Alan: Yeah, like I said, I'm excited about. 00:32:29.238 --> 00:32:32.328 any tools and any infrastructure that, that make it easier? 00:32:32.358 --> 00:32:36.588 I think they're all like places where gets more people into software development. 00:32:36.648 --> 00:32:40.158 It means more people are trying new things. 00:32:40.268 --> 00:32:41.828 we're as an industry, as a. 00:32:42.453 --> 00:32:47.543 A, global populace, like the speed of innovation is tied to how 00:32:47.543 --> 00:32:51.023 quickly can we experiment, like how many people can experiment. 00:32:51.413 --> 00:32:54.803 And so as we see like these new technologies and services that 00:32:55.163 --> 00:32:59.253 lower that cost to experimentation, we're getting more shots at 00:32:59.253 --> 00:33:01.798 building more new and cool things. 00:33:01.798 --> 00:33:04.778 And that's something that we should all be really excited about. 00:33:06.118 --> 00:33:06.533 CJ: Totally. 00:33:07.223 --> 00:33:07.343 Yeah. 00:33:07.343 --> 00:33:10.403 I think this also dovetails really nicely with the whole no-code 00:33:10.403 --> 00:33:11.933 movement, which we've talked a lot. 00:33:12.053 --> 00:33:19.273 And I think, I, when I first thought about NRO and no code, I thought, oh, there's 00:33:19.273 --> 00:33:22.763 probably not that many people who are, opening up the terminal and running NRO 00:33:23.003 --> 00:33:26.453 and setting up a local tunnel so they could do no code stuff because they're 00:33:26.453 --> 00:33:28.103 probably using some application somewhere. 00:33:28.493 --> 00:33:31.678 But the reality is that now that might be part of their 00:33:31.728 --> 00:33:33.558 stack in some way or another. 00:33:33.668 --> 00:33:36.993 okay, we're, building this no code thing with bubble, but I need. 00:33:37.348 --> 00:33:37.678 I don't know. 00:33:37.683 --> 00:33:40.053 I need to test something. 00:33:40.593 --> 00:33:42.423 Yeah, I need to test web hooks or whatever. 00:33:42.423 --> 00:33:45.353 And, there, there was a bunch of like use cases, I think. 00:33:45.463 --> 00:33:49.913 That I, recently bumped into within groc too, where I was like, oh, I want to 00:33:49.913 --> 00:33:53.093 test something locally, but it needs to have hdps s and I don't wanna have to 00:33:53.098 --> 00:33:54.983 figure out how to set up my SSL cert. 00:33:54.983 --> 00:33:57.403 And so I'm just gonna try on in groc, cuz I know that it gives me 00:33:57.403 --> 00:34:01.813 that Hdps s endpoint that I can use instead so that I can go verify 00:34:01.813 --> 00:34:03.553 my Apple Pay domain or whatever. 00:34:03.973 --> 00:34:06.253 It's like a test, like some Apple Pay thing locally. 00:34:06.643 --> 00:34:10.083 So there's, yeah, I think there's, I dunno, there, there's always gonna be like 00:34:10.083 --> 00:34:13.793 use cases where people who are building cool stuff are gonna need these tools. 00:34:13.793 --> 00:34:17.303 But yeah, it is a incredibly exciting time to be alive. 00:34:17.303 --> 00:34:21.983 And I also like every time that GitHub co-pilot completes anything for me that 00:34:21.983 --> 00:34:26.243 is like non-trivial or more than a line, I'm just like, whoa, this is so cool. 00:34:26.243 --> 00:34:30.383 still, after a year of using it almost every day, it's, it still blows my mind. 00:34:30.413 --> 00:34:33.223 And, yeah, I think it is definitely a really exciting time to be alive. 00:34:33.223 --> 00:34:33.673 For sure. 00:34:34.348 --> 00:34:36.508 Alan: I don't know that I've talked to anyone who's used 00:34:36.513 --> 00:34:38.188 GitHub co-pilot for a year. 00:34:38.248 --> 00:34:39.778 do you feel faster when you use it? 00:34:40.348 --> 00:34:41.608 CJ: Oh yeah, way faster. 00:34:42.178 --> 00:34:49.598 I think that, so I, I initially set it up in Neo Vim, so you don't 00:34:49.603 --> 00:34:51.278 just have to use via vias code. 00:34:51.278 --> 00:34:56.348 So if you're using Neo Vim, go download T Pope's Get Hope co-pilot thing. 00:34:56.348 --> 00:35:00.408 There's a way to set it up, and it basically com like replaced all of my. 00:35:01.308 --> 00:35:03.318 My sort of dumb auto completion. 00:35:03.808 --> 00:35:08.558 and so now it's, it's very good and I'm now at the point where 00:35:08.558 --> 00:35:11.618 I'm learning type script and it helps a ton with type script. 00:35:12.068 --> 00:35:14.888 But circling back to one of your earlier points about copying and 00:35:14.888 --> 00:35:20.178 pasting errors, like the errors you get from TypeScript are so they're, yeah. 00:35:20.178 --> 00:35:21.768 They're impossible to understand. 00:35:21.768 --> 00:35:22.638 They're possible to Google. 00:35:22.828 --> 00:35:24.098 They're very challenging. 00:35:24.098 --> 00:35:28.608 So I'm like, I feel like I'm still on the frustrating part of the 00:35:28.608 --> 00:35:30.228 learning curve with type script, but, 00:35:30.738 --> 00:35:33.168 Colin: Are you getting, you're getting some type is not a type errors. 00:35:33.213 --> 00:35:33.603 CJ: Yeah. 00:35:33.603 --> 00:35:37.838 Or it's always like something is not any, you can't assign something to any, 00:35:37.988 --> 00:35:41.413 cuz we, we have it, we have all of the restrictions cranked, like really high. 00:35:41.683 --> 00:35:46.523 So it has to be, yeah, all the types have to be very happy with each other. 00:35:46.703 --> 00:35:50.458 And but yeah, co-pilot has been making all of that much, much faster. 00:35:50.698 --> 00:35:53.428 And when I was at Stripe, we were working in lots of different 00:35:53.428 --> 00:35:57.208 programming languages, go php, java.net. 00:35:57.508 --> 00:35:58.088 Ruby python. 00:35:58.738 --> 00:36:02.398 It was, we were all over the place in sw context switching between 00:36:02.398 --> 00:36:05.483 them was sometimes tricky and GitHub co-pilots like, oh yeah, I know that 00:36:05.488 --> 00:36:06.623 language and I know that language. 00:36:06.623 --> 00:36:10.734 Did I know that last, like, you know, kind of the, uh, the Rosetta Stone for 00:36:10.739 --> 00:36:14.238 you to sit there and help you through okay, what is the syntax for this again? 00:36:14.698 --> 00:36:17.788 but yeah, it's made, it's definitely made me faster for sure. 00:36:18.643 --> 00:36:21.448 Alan: It's, it's again, like another thing that I'm like really excited 00:36:21.448 --> 00:36:24.888 about because it fits into that same theme of things that make software 00:36:24.888 --> 00:36:26.418 development more accessible, right? 00:36:26.418 --> 00:36:29.818 Things that give, and for those who are, those of us who are already like 00:36:29.818 --> 00:36:33.123 more seasoned software developers, it gives us leverage, right? 00:36:33.393 --> 00:36:36.969 To be able to like, move faster, and build things that otherwise, 00:36:36.969 --> 00:36:38.439 like maybe would've taken us longer. 00:36:38.439 --> 00:36:40.779 Maybe we have to build a team to build those things. 00:36:40.839 --> 00:36:45.849 In some ways, a lot of modern software development is constrained based on the 00:36:45.854 --> 00:36:48.009 complexity of the things that we build. 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:52.659 And, the complexity of the applications that we build, sorry, like the 00:36:52.659 --> 00:36:56.109 functionality, like how much stuff like an application can do is 00:36:56.114 --> 00:36:58.239 constrained by like how complex of a. 00:36:58.629 --> 00:37:00.399 Of like a code base you can manage. 00:37:00.399 --> 00:37:03.729 And we've built, like so many of our tools are just about 00:37:03.729 --> 00:37:05.559 trying to manage that complexity. 00:37:05.559 --> 00:37:08.859 Like how do we create abstractions so we can hide some of that complexity 00:37:08.859 --> 00:37:11.169 and not think about it as we like, deal with the rest of the problem. 00:37:11.739 --> 00:37:15.274 and like software engineering and management, of like building 00:37:15.274 --> 00:37:19.144 engineering organizations is about like siloing that complexity like 00:37:19.144 --> 00:37:21.214 within humans and within teams, right? 00:37:21.214 --> 00:37:24.244 Of like, how do we create a team who can own this like problem so the other 00:37:24.244 --> 00:37:25.624 teams don't have to think about it? 00:37:26.224 --> 00:37:29.869 And technologies like co-pilot are really exciting because they give 00:37:29.869 --> 00:37:33.409 everyone leverage, which means like the scope of the things that we can 00:37:33.409 --> 00:37:35.489 all solve together, gets larger. 00:37:35.739 --> 00:37:40.229 if everyone, can work at higher levels of abstraction, I, I think of it as like 00:37:40.259 --> 00:37:44.545 a kind of like a messy compiler that doesn't always do the right thing, right? 00:37:44.545 --> 00:37:44.695 Or 00:37:44.695 --> 00:37:48.090 you're like, I have an intention and you compile it into, machine 00:37:48.090 --> 00:37:49.650 code, but you're not always right. 00:37:50.010 --> 00:37:52.055 Which is, an exciting place to be. 00:37:52.235 --> 00:37:55.595 that we're in this world where we're getting to where I see the 00:37:55.595 --> 00:37:59.005 scope of the problems that we can create and tackle, becoming larger. 00:37:59.900 --> 00:38:00.390 CJ: Totally. 00:38:00.590 --> 00:38:03.620 And com combining with the other tool, like the other LM tools. 00:38:03.620 --> 00:38:05.030 the other day I was, I. 00:38:05.110 --> 00:38:09.280 Just trying to do something with a bunch of unknowns where I wanted 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:14.890 to make a video where the video was explaining a code snippet and 00:38:15.220 --> 00:38:17.410 I wanted all of it to be automated. 00:38:17.470 --> 00:38:20.500 And so I wanted to be able to just say my input is some code snippet and 00:38:20.500 --> 00:38:24.890 the output is a video that is animated and it brings in the code snippet. 00:38:24.890 --> 00:38:29.090 It explains what it does with a voiceover and it shows you like all this stuff. 00:38:29.090 --> 00:38:32.360 Basically, like my job as a developer graphic as right, and I was like, 00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:34.190 chat G B T, how would I build this? 00:38:34.190 --> 00:38:37.610 like how do I animate this and how would I animate some code showing up? 00:38:37.610 --> 00:38:40.700 And then it just like starts spitting out different like python blocks 00:38:41.060 --> 00:38:45.500 using map plot lib and using like these other animation libraries. 00:38:45.500 --> 00:38:47.180 And then I was like, okay, and now how do I like. 00:38:48.235 --> 00:38:50.905 describe this and it spits out the description that you take the description. 00:38:50.905 --> 00:38:52.825 It's okay, now go to some other tool. 00:38:52.830 --> 00:38:54.600 okay, now make this a voiceover. 00:38:54.600 --> 00:38:57.840 It gives you like the AI voiceover, and then you're able to ki it was 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:02.160 like an hour of just playing around in a bunch of spaces that I had 00:39:02.160 --> 00:39:05.445 no idea about, what tools to use or, how to put things together. 00:39:05.465 --> 00:39:08.655 And just like between GitHub co-pilot. 00:39:09.350 --> 00:39:12.470 Helping write some of the code between chat, e p t, writing some of the code. 00:39:12.710 --> 00:39:16.070 It went from nothing to having a prototype in an hour because you can 00:39:16.070 --> 00:39:17.750 just whack at it in different ways. 00:39:17.750 --> 00:39:20.420 And even copying the error message directly into chat e p t. 00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:23.120 And it will just tell you like, here's the thing that you got 00:39:23.125 --> 00:39:24.514 wrong, and here's how to fix it. 00:39:24.914 --> 00:39:26.874 And it's been really fun. 00:39:26.974 --> 00:39:31.174 I don't know that style of development, like chat, G B t is the third 00:39:32.194 --> 00:39:35.404 like pair programmer in the room with you, has been interesting. 00:39:35.899 --> 00:39:36.229 Alan: Yeah, 00:39:36.274 --> 00:39:37.654 Colin: br brute forest development. 00:39:38.764 --> 00:39:39.484 CJ: exactly. 00:39:39.684 --> 00:39:39.904 Colin: Oh. 00:39:40.279 --> 00:39:41.089 Alan: that's really exciting. 00:39:41.429 --> 00:39:44.519 just all of these tools and ways to develop are just really exciting cuz 00:39:44.569 --> 00:39:45.889 we're gonna get to see more stuff. 00:39:45.919 --> 00:39:47.509 we're gonna get to build things more easily. 00:39:47.939 --> 00:39:51.639 no, I'm really excited about building applications on top of all these things. 00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:53.109 Colin: Absolutely. 00:39:53.109 --> 00:39:56.349 And I think, leverage is a great place to end this episode on. 00:39:56.349 --> 00:39:59.919 So thanks so much for joining us and spending time with us today, Alan. 00:39:59.919 --> 00:40:00.729 It's been awesome. 00:40:01.419 --> 00:40:02.229 Alan: It's been a pleasure. 00:40:02.769 --> 00:40:03.409 Thanks for having me. 00:40:04.779 --> 00:40:08.409 CJ: As always, you can head over to Build and learn.dev to check 00:40:08.409 --> 00:40:09.789 out all the links and resources. 00:40:09.789 --> 00:40:11.379 We'll drop those in the show notes for you. 00:40:12.129 --> 00:40:13.449 Thanks so much for listening. 00:40:13.454 --> 00:40:15.159 That's all, and we'll see you next time. 00:40:16.584 --> 00:40:17.094 Colin: See ya.