1 00:00:01,370 --> 00:00:04,148 (Music) Society builders pave the way to a 2 00:00:04,149 --> 00:00:06,308 better world, to a better day. 3 00:00:06,309 --> 00:00:10,430 A united approach to building a new society. 4 00:00:11,090 --> 00:00:17,790 Join the conversation for social transformation, Society Builders 5 00:00:21,330 --> 00:00:25,230 Society Builders with your host, Duane Varan. 6 00:00:26,330 --> 00:00:29,916 (Duane) Welcome to another exciting episode of 7 00:00:29,917 --> 00:00:32,594 Society Builders, and thanks for joining 8 00:00:32,595 --> 00:00:36,090 the conversation for social transformation. 9 00:00:36,091 --> 00:00:39,766 Today we continue our sequence of episodes 10 00:00:39,767 --> 00:00:43,728 exploring the science of depolarization, how we 11 00:00:43,729 --> 00:00:46,910 can help bring antagonistic groups closer together. 12 00:00:46,911 --> 00:00:49,248 Now, most of our previous episodes on this 13 00:00:49,249 --> 00:00:52,532 theme have explored solutions, and in some ways 14 00:00:52,533 --> 00:00:55,178 we've been talking about solutions before fully exploring 15 00:00:55,179 --> 00:00:57,978 the underlying problems and their causes. 16 00:00:57,979 --> 00:01:00,916 So today we're going to go back a step and 17 00:01:00,917 --> 00:01:05,191 dive in further on why we're seeing this explosion in 18 00:01:05,192 --> 00:01:10,776 polarization globally, what's behind it, what's helping cause it. 19 00:01:10,777 --> 00:01:12,456 And today we're going to explore just 20 00:01:12,457 --> 00:01:15,134 one of these major drivers, an accelerant 21 00:01:15,135 --> 00:01:18,050 that's greatly fanning the flames of polarization. 22 00:01:18,051 --> 00:01:20,364 And here, of course, I'm talking 23 00:01:20,365 --> 00:01:23,916 about social media and how social 24 00:01:23,917 --> 00:01:28,730 media contribute to this polarization disease. 25 00:01:28,731 --> 00:01:30,384 And my guest today is one of the 26 00:01:30,385 --> 00:01:33,296 world's leading authorities on this question, Dr. 27 00:01:33,297 --> 00:01:35,984 Lisa Schirch, who's the Senior Professor of the 28 00:01:35,985 --> 00:01:38,288 Practice of Peace Studies at the University of 29 00:01:38,289 --> 00:01:41,082 Notre Dame and who is also a Senior 30 00:01:41,083 --> 00:01:44,234 Research Fellow at the Toda Peace Institute. 31 00:01:44,235 --> 00:01:46,580 She's the author of 11 books and 32 00:01:46,581 --> 00:01:50,378 countless academic articles exploring this theme, including 33 00:01:50,379 --> 00:01:53,758 her most recent book, Social Media Impacts 34 00:01:53,759 --> 00:01:58,926 on Conflict and Democracy: the Tech-tonic Shift. 35 00:01:58,927 --> 00:02:01,112 So we're incredibly fortunate to have 36 00:02:01,113 --> 00:02:03,624 the benefit of her insights today. 37 00:02:03,625 --> 00:02:08,620 So Lisa, welcome to Society Builders. (Lisa) Thanks so much. 38 00:02:08,621 --> 00:02:09,820 Great to be here. 39 00:02:09,821 --> 00:02:11,948 (Duane) It's such a thrill to have you. 40 00:02:11,949 --> 00:02:16,636 Your research has really been focusing on such a 41 00:02:16,637 --> 00:02:21,584 crucial question in this whole polarization arena, and that 42 00:02:21,585 --> 00:02:26,576 is about the role that social media play as 43 00:02:26,577 --> 00:02:31,894 this accelerant that's feeding this whole polarization machine. 44 00:02:31,895 --> 00:02:35,204 That's what we really want to talk about today. 45 00:02:35,205 --> 00:02:38,548 It's kind of like there was this romantic period where 46 00:02:38,549 --> 00:02:42,212 when we were talking about technology, we talked about it 47 00:02:42,213 --> 00:02:44,906 in terms of how it was going to give voice 48 00:02:44,907 --> 00:02:47,784 to people, how it was going to unite people, how 49 00:02:47,785 --> 00:02:49,454 it was going to improve democracy. 50 00:02:49,455 --> 00:02:51,806 We're not talking about it quite like that anymore. 51 00:02:51,807 --> 00:02:54,584 Now it's like technology has suddenly become 52 00:02:54,585 --> 00:02:57,774 unbridled. And now we're fearing the consequence. 53 00:02:57,775 --> 00:03:00,796 I mean, it's a very different way that we view social 54 00:03:00,797 --> 00:03:04,204 media today than perhaps we did a few years back. 55 00:03:04,205 --> 00:03:07,660 So maybe we can start here and talk about 56 00:03:07,661 --> 00:03:11,130 how it is that social media contribute to polarization. 57 00:03:12,110 --> 00:03:14,030 (Lisa) Sure, great question. 58 00:03:14,031 --> 00:03:15,568 A lot of people will point to the 59 00:03:15,569 --> 00:03:19,248 fact that there was polarization before social media. 60 00:03:19,249 --> 00:03:22,180 So it's not the origin of 61 00:03:22,181 --> 00:03:24,420 why people disagree with each other. 62 00:03:24,421 --> 00:03:26,708 And there are other factors also. 63 00:03:26,709 --> 00:03:30,596 So I want to point out that political polarization through 64 00:03:30,597 --> 00:03:35,928 radio, through legacy know tv shows like Fox News and 65 00:03:35,929 --> 00:03:41,240 MSNBC, for example, we've had this creation of partisan media, 66 00:03:41,241 --> 00:03:44,310 and that is also part of polarization. 67 00:03:44,311 --> 00:03:47,930 But I think the contribution of social media 68 00:03:47,931 --> 00:03:54,450 to this phenomena of increasing dehumanization and hatred 69 00:03:54,451 --> 00:03:57,580 of each other, really, that it's played a 70 00:03:57,581 --> 00:04:00,640 big role, because the way that social media 71 00:04:00,641 --> 00:04:05,558 is designed rewards bad behavior. 72 00:04:05,559 --> 00:04:10,690 So it actually amplifies the worst aspects of human 73 00:04:10,691 --> 00:04:15,332 behavior in terms of, if you can imagine us 74 00:04:15,333 --> 00:04:18,579 driving down the highway and there's an accident, and 75 00:04:18,580 --> 00:04:22,148 everyone slows down to look at the accident the 76 00:04:22,149 --> 00:04:25,190 same way on social media, when there's an argument, 77 00:04:25,191 --> 00:04:27,910 that's what draws people's attention. 78 00:04:27,911 --> 00:04:30,312 Social media is a lot like an 79 00:04:30,313 --> 00:04:33,992 amphitheater or more like a coliseum, where 80 00:04:33,993 --> 00:04:36,072 there's gladiators fighting in the center. 81 00:04:36,073 --> 00:04:39,644 So most people on social media are just watching. 82 00:04:39,645 --> 00:04:43,116 I think it's often just 1% of people on social 83 00:04:43,117 --> 00:04:47,532 media that are behaving really badly, arguing with each other 84 00:04:47,533 --> 00:04:52,710 in a very dehumanizing way, but it's contagious. 85 00:04:52,711 --> 00:04:55,472 So while many people might not be 86 00:04:55,473 --> 00:04:58,368 arguing online, it's affecting people and what 87 00:04:58,369 --> 00:05:00,530 they think of the world online. 88 00:05:00,531 --> 00:05:03,012 And I would say it's the design of 89 00:05:03,013 --> 00:05:08,260 social media platforms as gladiator arenas where people 90 00:05:08,261 --> 00:05:10,372 come to fight, and the whole design of 91 00:05:10,373 --> 00:05:13,658 how it helps people watch that fighting. 92 00:05:13,659 --> 00:05:16,072 We can design social media in a different way. 93 00:05:16,073 --> 00:05:19,630 It doesn't need to be amplifying those fighting 94 00:05:19,631 --> 00:05:22,568 people by putting them on the stage in 95 00:05:22,569 --> 00:05:23,928 the middle of all of us. 96 00:05:23,929 --> 00:05:25,928 And I think that it's what we 97 00:05:25,929 --> 00:05:29,164 call algorithms on social media that drive 98 00:05:29,165 --> 00:05:31,900 our attention to see who's fighting today. 99 00:05:31,901 --> 00:05:34,524 So the first thing when you open your computer 100 00:05:34,525 --> 00:05:36,732 in the morning, or you turn it on and 101 00:05:36,733 --> 00:05:39,568 you look at your Twitter or your Facebook, the 102 00:05:39,569 --> 00:05:42,470 algorithm is going to show you who is fighting. 103 00:05:42,471 --> 00:05:45,370 And so that's how it's a gladiator arena. 104 00:05:46,270 --> 00:05:48,544 (Duane) So, Lisa, one of the themes we want 105 00:05:48,545 --> 00:05:51,936 to explore today is how intentional the social 106 00:05:51,937 --> 00:05:54,864 media push to polarization really know. 107 00:05:54,865 --> 00:05:57,572 I think people might assume that polarized content is 108 00:05:57,573 --> 00:06:00,100 naturally floating to the top, so to speak. 109 00:06:00,101 --> 00:06:02,218 People are clicking on content, and that's 110 00:06:02,219 --> 00:06:05,982 naturally resulting in polarized content being viewed. 111 00:06:05,983 --> 00:06:08,136 But actually, that's not the whole story. 112 00:06:08,137 --> 00:06:11,678 It's not happening naturally or by popular selection. 113 00:06:11,679 --> 00:06:14,168 There are actually very deliberate forces that 114 00:06:14,169 --> 00:06:17,244 are biased to amplifying the polarized content, 115 00:06:17,245 --> 00:06:19,618 giving it a disproportionate voice. 116 00:06:19,619 --> 00:06:21,058 And there are a variety of reasons 117 00:06:21,059 --> 00:06:23,290 for this, which we want to explore. 118 00:06:23,291 --> 00:06:27,522 So, first, let's talk about commercial reasons 119 00:06:27,523 --> 00:06:31,142 why this kind of polarized amplification occurs. 120 00:06:31,143 --> 00:06:34,090 What commercial interests drive this amplification? 121 00:06:34,910 --> 00:06:35,760 (Lisa) ((Great question. 122 00:06:35,761 --> 00:06:38,608 So why companies want to highlight why 123 00:06:38,609 --> 00:06:41,604 their algorithms highlight who's fighting today. 124 00:06:41,605 --> 00:06:44,586 Because, yeah, the profit is related 125 00:06:44,587 --> 00:06:47,108 to how long people stay online. 126 00:06:47,109 --> 00:06:49,908 So they make more money the longer each 127 00:06:49,909 --> 00:06:52,872 of us stays on their platform, because they 128 00:06:52,873 --> 00:06:55,496 show us more ads, the longer we're there. 129 00:06:55,497 --> 00:07:00,856 So they get money from advertisers for the minutes that a 130 00:07:00,857 --> 00:07:04,584 user is on the platform looking at that specific ad. 131 00:07:04,585 --> 00:07:08,236 So they get financially rewarded for keeping us there. 132 00:07:08,237 --> 00:07:12,146 What keeps us there are the fights and the arguments. 133 00:07:12,147 --> 00:07:13,884 But we also have to realize that the 134 00:07:13,885 --> 00:07:16,844 longer we're on the platform, the more information 135 00:07:16,845 --> 00:07:19,184 these companies are gathering from us. 136 00:07:19,185 --> 00:07:24,160 So they're extracting personal data from each person on 137 00:07:24,161 --> 00:07:27,376 any of the platforms about who they're friends with, 138 00:07:27,377 --> 00:07:30,388 what they like, where they are, and all of 139 00:07:30,389 --> 00:07:35,348 that data is then sold to advertisers to be 140 00:07:35,349 --> 00:07:39,530 able to target ads more clearly and precisely. 141 00:07:39,531 --> 00:07:42,852 So there's this twofold profit model where they want to 142 00:07:42,853 --> 00:07:45,268 have us stay there to watch ads, and they want 143 00:07:45,269 --> 00:07:48,488 us to stay there and watch other people's content so 144 00:07:48,489 --> 00:07:51,256 that they can gain more information about what we like 145 00:07:51,257 --> 00:07:53,700 and what ads to feed us in the future. 146 00:07:54,230 --> 00:07:55,544 So that makes sense. 147 00:07:55,545 --> 00:07:58,220 So there's this big money sign over 148 00:07:58,221 --> 00:08:01,036 us staying on the platforms longer. 149 00:08:01,037 --> 00:08:04,316 And emotional content, what we say is 150 00:08:04,317 --> 00:08:07,746 sort of false and deceptive and hateful 151 00:08:07,747 --> 00:08:11,070 content keeps people there longer. 152 00:08:11,071 --> 00:08:13,248 This is the neuroscience part of it. 153 00:08:13,249 --> 00:08:16,726 It's often referred to as the attention economy. 154 00:08:16,727 --> 00:08:18,208 The idea that each of us 155 00:08:18,209 --> 00:08:20,640 has a limited attention every day. 156 00:08:20,641 --> 00:08:25,706 And all those tech companies, Netflix, eBay, Amazon, 157 00:08:25,707 --> 00:08:28,788 Facebook, they're all fighting for a minute of 158 00:08:28,789 --> 00:08:31,268 our day because they make more money the 159 00:08:31,269 --> 00:08:33,289 longer we're on their sites. 160 00:08:33,290 --> 00:08:35,652 Not all of the sites are making money 161 00:08:35,653 --> 00:08:37,224 in the same attention sort of way. 162 00:08:37,225 --> 00:08:39,528 It's mostly the social media companies, but 163 00:08:39,529 --> 00:08:41,854 they are all fighting for our attention. 164 00:08:41,855 --> 00:08:44,712 So when you have a social media company that 165 00:08:44,713 --> 00:08:49,314 is letting users make their own content, and users 166 00:08:49,315 --> 00:08:55,394 learn that making outrageous content gets them more attention, 167 00:08:55,395 --> 00:09:01,094 because the algorithm is driving people toward extremist ideas, 168 00:09:01,095 --> 00:09:05,958 angry, hateful ideas, what we know is that politicians 169 00:09:05,959 --> 00:09:08,912 in Europe actually figured this out, that if they 170 00:09:08,913 --> 00:09:12,916 just posted a regular campaign ad, they would not 171 00:09:12,917 --> 00:09:14,314 get very much engagement. 172 00:09:14,315 --> 00:09:17,844 But if they used inflammatory language, sort of like 173 00:09:17,845 --> 00:09:22,090 very emotionally engaging language, then the algorithm on Facebook 174 00:09:22,091 --> 00:09:24,024 would show that to lots of people. 175 00:09:24,025 --> 00:09:26,776 And so politicians are like, you're making 176 00:09:26,777 --> 00:09:30,232 us more polarized, because you've incentivized us 177 00:09:30,233 --> 00:09:33,350 to be outrageous in our political ads. 178 00:09:33,351 --> 00:09:36,450 And so this is how this algorithm. 179 00:09:36,451 --> 00:09:40,316 We call it algorithmic extremism, algorithms that 180 00:09:40,317 --> 00:09:45,308 reward extremist content, it's turning up the 181 00:09:45,309 --> 00:09:47,430 heat in all of our conversations. 182 00:09:48,330 --> 00:09:50,102 (Duane) So we see how this commercial 183 00:09:50,103 --> 00:09:51,936 imperative contributes to the problem. 184 00:09:51,937 --> 00:09:54,672 But it's actually a lot more sinister and 185 00:09:54,673 --> 00:09:57,152 malicious than this, because there are also other 186 00:09:57,153 --> 00:10:00,624 forces driving this amplification of polarized content. 187 00:10:00,625 --> 00:10:03,412 And perhaps the most malicious is the 188 00:10:03,413 --> 00:10:05,684 cyber warfare that is taking place here. 189 00:10:05,685 --> 00:10:07,348 And this is all the more sinister because 190 00:10:07,349 --> 00:10:10,618 there are often foreign governments acting to destabilize 191 00:10:10,619 --> 00:10:12,660 our countries that are behind this. 192 00:10:12,661 --> 00:10:15,176 Lisa, can you comment on how these 193 00:10:15,177 --> 00:10:18,770 kind of malicious forces drive polarization? 194 00:10:19,510 --> 00:10:23,950 (Lisa) Foreign governments, and especially Russia, learned how Facebook 195 00:10:23,951 --> 00:10:26,492 works a long time ago, and it was 196 00:10:26,493 --> 00:10:29,020 before the 2016 election in the United States. 197 00:10:29,021 --> 00:10:33,202 And we know this because a bipartisan republican democratic 198 00:10:33,203 --> 00:10:38,784 Senate Foreign Relations committee did a big research project 199 00:10:38,785 --> 00:10:41,488 on how Russia interfered in the US election in 200 00:10:41,489 --> 00:10:45,740 2016, and they interfered by gaming this system. 201 00:10:46,350 --> 00:10:48,960 In fact, foreign governments at that point 202 00:10:48,961 --> 00:10:53,418 could actually profit from creating fake ads 203 00:10:53,419 --> 00:10:56,538 about Hillary Clinton going to prison, creating 204 00:10:56,539 --> 00:10:59,786 a meme with Hillary Clinton behind bars. 205 00:10:59,787 --> 00:11:03,722 And this would then spread like wildfire 206 00:11:03,723 --> 00:11:06,830 because extremist content gets more attention. 207 00:11:06,831 --> 00:11:10,126 And there is an affordance, a design feature 208 00:11:10,127 --> 00:11:12,472 on Facebook that lets you share things with 209 00:11:12,473 --> 00:11:15,272 other people that wouldn't have to be there. 210 00:11:15,273 --> 00:11:17,692 And one of our asks in the 2024 211 00:11:17,693 --> 00:11:21,042 elections is, stop the share button during election 212 00:11:21,043 --> 00:11:24,322 seasons, because this is how false and deceptive 213 00:11:24,323 --> 00:11:27,772 information travels so quickly and so fast. 214 00:11:27,773 --> 00:11:29,404 But we know that Russia was doing 215 00:11:29,405 --> 00:11:31,254 that to a bunch of different candidates, 216 00:11:31,255 --> 00:11:33,206 so they were playing different sides. 217 00:11:33,207 --> 00:11:35,600 They were also pretending to be 218 00:11:35,601 --> 00:11:38,240 black activists in the United States. 219 00:11:38,241 --> 00:11:41,232 And in those black activist chats that 220 00:11:41,233 --> 00:11:44,292 Russia was posting information, know, why would 221 00:11:44,293 --> 00:11:46,986 anybody want to vote for Hillary Clinton? 222 00:11:46,987 --> 00:11:48,372 And we should all just stay home? 223 00:11:48,373 --> 00:11:51,290 So they were pretending to be different Americans. 224 00:11:51,291 --> 00:11:54,286 And the goal is really to divide Americans, 225 00:11:54,287 --> 00:11:58,478 to undermine democratic processes, to make us doubt 226 00:11:58,479 --> 00:12:01,448 political leaders, to doubt our media. 227 00:12:01,449 --> 00:12:06,786 It's sort of amplifying disinformation, but also leading 228 00:12:06,787 --> 00:12:10,012 to a collapse of what is true. 229 00:12:10,013 --> 00:12:12,722 The collapse of truth and the collapse 230 00:12:12,723 --> 00:12:15,612 of trust, social trust, public trust. 231 00:12:15,613 --> 00:12:18,640 We can't trust who is on our side. 232 00:12:18,641 --> 00:12:21,846 All we sort of see online is chaotic 233 00:12:21,847 --> 00:12:25,952 information that's very, very polarized, and it really 234 00:12:25,953 --> 00:12:29,180 just sorts people into us versus them. 235 00:12:29,790 --> 00:12:32,528 (Duane) There's a certain irony here, because a lot 236 00:12:32,529 --> 00:12:34,512 of this feels like it parallels what was 237 00:12:34,513 --> 00:12:37,018 happening in Iran in the 1953 coup. 238 00:12:37,019 --> 00:12:38,762 And this is well documented. 239 00:12:38,763 --> 00:12:40,698 I mean, it's not a conspiracy theory I'm sharing. 240 00:12:40,699 --> 00:12:42,052 This is now more than 50 years later. 241 00:12:42,053 --> 00:12:43,332 This is all out in the open. 242 00:12:43,333 --> 00:12:46,552 But what would happen is the CIA would pay 243 00:12:46,553 --> 00:12:49,128 these protesters to go march in the streets with 244 00:12:49,129 --> 00:12:52,008 these anti Mossad death messages, and then they would 245 00:12:52,009 --> 00:12:54,734 pay the same protesters to walk the other direction 246 00:12:54,735 --> 00:12:56,318 with these anti Shah messages. 247 00:12:56,319 --> 00:12:57,906 So they would just walk back and forth, 248 00:12:57,907 --> 00:13:01,530 just feeding the passions on both sides. 249 00:13:01,531 --> 00:13:04,882 And now, ironically, you have state actors, including 250 00:13:04,883 --> 00:13:07,132 Iran, including Russia, and many others, who are 251 00:13:07,133 --> 00:13:09,376 now kind of like bringing that same kind 252 00:13:09,377 --> 00:13:13,552 of tactic now into the cybersphere. (Lisa) Absolutely. 253 00:13:13,553 --> 00:13:15,850 And they're called chaos actors. 254 00:13:16,590 --> 00:13:19,446 It's not really clear and easy to see foreign 255 00:13:19,447 --> 00:13:24,666 operatives on social media because they're causing chaos. 256 00:13:24,667 --> 00:13:29,348 They're causing the collapse of information and how we 257 00:13:29,349 --> 00:13:31,970 think and make sense of the world today. 258 00:13:31,971 --> 00:13:34,936 And so I think we need to understand how 259 00:13:34,937 --> 00:13:39,902 chaos contributes to polarization, because before there was toxic 260 00:13:39,903 --> 00:13:44,968 polarization all over the world, we disagreed politically with 261 00:13:44,969 --> 00:13:47,448 many of our neighbors, but we didn't think that 262 00:13:47,449 --> 00:13:49,426 they were evil or hateful. 263 00:13:49,427 --> 00:13:52,316 And if we had a question about why do you believe this? 264 00:13:52,317 --> 00:13:54,732 Or that, we could actually talk to them. 265 00:13:54,733 --> 00:13:57,890 And so it's sort of this chaotic and hateful 266 00:13:57,891 --> 00:14:00,688 environment now that we see on social media that 267 00:14:00,689 --> 00:14:05,542 is just fueling sort of people disengaging from politics 268 00:14:05,543 --> 00:14:08,512 in many ways and just deciding this is too 269 00:14:08,513 --> 00:14:10,842 chaotic, too angry, too hateful. 270 00:14:10,843 --> 00:14:13,236 And it encourages passivity, actually. 271 00:14:13,237 --> 00:14:17,630 It encourages just opting out of voting and engagement. 272 00:14:27,430 --> 00:14:30,008 (Duane) I'd like to go back to what you were talking 273 00:14:30,009 --> 00:14:34,584 about, the algorithms, and how these algorithms really build on 274 00:14:34,585 --> 00:14:40,348 some underlying passions and build on that, again, not in 275 00:14:40,349 --> 00:14:43,954 a disinterested or not in an objective way, very clearly 276 00:14:43,955 --> 00:14:46,300 with this bias tooth accelerating it. 277 00:14:46,301 --> 00:14:48,416 But still, one of the things which is really 278 00:14:48,417 --> 00:14:50,688 interesting about this, and you talk about this in 279 00:14:50,689 --> 00:14:57,696 your book, the limbic neurophysiological human, the reptile human, 280 00:14:57,697 --> 00:15:01,540 what Baha'i's would call this conflict between our lower 281 00:15:01,541 --> 00:15:05,796 nature and our higher nature, our animal self and 282 00:15:05,797 --> 00:15:08,842 our transcending of our animal self, our more divine 283 00:15:08,843 --> 00:15:11,786 self, if you will, this battle that exists. 284 00:15:11,787 --> 00:15:14,232 And what seems to be playing out is that 285 00:15:14,233 --> 00:15:19,272 those mechanisms of our lower nature, our passions, are 286 00:15:19,273 --> 00:15:23,256 being fed and fanned in this way. 287 00:15:23,257 --> 00:15:27,602 And that is what gets this fire going so rapidly. 288 00:15:27,603 --> 00:15:31,068 And it just seems like that opportunity that 289 00:15:31,069 --> 00:15:34,994 has a more rational, more measured, more thoughtful, 290 00:15:34,995 --> 00:15:39,750 more insightful, that kind of more elevated conversation 291 00:15:39,751 --> 00:15:42,406 gets lost in that traffic somehow. 292 00:15:42,407 --> 00:15:45,078 So that seems to be this underlying 293 00:15:45,079 --> 00:15:47,718 tension that is this engine, this catalyst 294 00:15:47,719 --> 00:15:51,070 that drives these algorithms so radically. 295 00:15:51,810 --> 00:15:54,116 (Lisa) So really, neuroscience is behind 296 00:15:54,117 --> 00:15:56,618 a lot of conflict behavior. 297 00:15:56,619 --> 00:16:00,820 When human beings can sit down calmly and 298 00:16:00,821 --> 00:16:04,328 breathing regularly, we can solve problems together. 299 00:16:04,329 --> 00:16:07,662 We can disagree about issues, but we can maintain 300 00:16:07,663 --> 00:16:11,592 a sense of human dignity, relationship with others. 301 00:16:11,593 --> 00:16:14,542 And we have our prefrontal cortex. 302 00:16:14,543 --> 00:16:16,792 I'm pointing to my forehead right now. 303 00:16:16,793 --> 00:16:19,948 We have this amazing brain, as humans, that 304 00:16:19,949 --> 00:16:22,940 can link up with other people's brains and 305 00:16:22,941 --> 00:16:25,740 figure out creative solutions to problems. 306 00:16:25,741 --> 00:16:29,922 And really, that's what conflict resolution, conflict transformation 307 00:16:29,923 --> 00:16:33,072 building, that's what that's all about, is trying 308 00:16:33,073 --> 00:16:37,312 to create a setting, a condition where people 309 00:16:37,313 --> 00:16:39,952 can be their best selves and work with 310 00:16:39,953 --> 00:16:43,124 other people to find creative solutions to problems. 311 00:16:43,125 --> 00:16:46,148 So, as a mediator, for example, I'm used 312 00:16:46,149 --> 00:16:48,260 to sitting in a room with people who 313 00:16:48,261 --> 00:16:51,860 are very angry with each other, disagreeing something. 314 00:16:51,861 --> 00:16:55,112 And it's my job as a mediator to lead them through 315 00:16:55,113 --> 00:16:59,822 a process of moving from the reptile part of their brain 316 00:16:59,823 --> 00:17:03,816 in the back bottom of the brain stem, and trying to 317 00:17:03,817 --> 00:17:06,348 sort of create enough safety in the room that they can 318 00:17:06,349 --> 00:17:11,068 come up to their forehead, where their thinking brain is, where 319 00:17:11,069 --> 00:17:13,644 they can actually solve problems together. 320 00:17:13,645 --> 00:17:16,732 And so even before all this, social media, I 321 00:17:16,733 --> 00:17:19,904 think neuroscience really underlies a lot of the process 322 00:17:19,905 --> 00:17:24,982 of conflict transformation, moving from just an emotional response 323 00:17:24,983 --> 00:17:28,528 to be able to think and be mindful of 324 00:17:28,529 --> 00:17:31,390 our ability to solve problems together. 325 00:17:31,391 --> 00:17:34,378 So I think when you think about neuroscience 326 00:17:34,379 --> 00:17:36,500 and social media, there's a few things happening. 327 00:17:36,501 --> 00:17:38,676 It's showing us the emotional content 328 00:17:38,677 --> 00:17:41,514 which keeps us at that brainstem. 329 00:17:41,515 --> 00:17:43,578 My colleagues at the Center for Humane 330 00:17:43,579 --> 00:17:45,736 Technology call it the race to the bottom 331 00:17:45,737 --> 00:17:47,960 of the brain stem on social media. 332 00:17:47,961 --> 00:17:51,406 So it's this race to show us the most outrageous 333 00:17:51,407 --> 00:17:56,090 emotional content to keep us engaged at an emotional level. 334 00:17:56,091 --> 00:18:00,626 But it's also just sort of this addictive comparison. 335 00:18:00,627 --> 00:18:03,100 Like, there's so many dynamics on social media 336 00:18:03,101 --> 00:18:06,418 that keep us on these platforms, and it's 337 00:18:06,419 --> 00:18:08,796 been shown to really have a negative effect 338 00:18:08,797 --> 00:18:11,120 on most people, especially children. 339 00:18:11,121 --> 00:18:14,518 All this social comparison that happens with, here's 340 00:18:14,519 --> 00:18:16,534 what I'm doing, here's the fun thing, here's 341 00:18:16,535 --> 00:18:19,654 how beautiful I look, and all these selfies. 342 00:18:19,655 --> 00:18:23,012 It's such a weird culture, and it's bringing out 343 00:18:23,013 --> 00:18:26,788 really bad parts of humanity where we don't feel 344 00:18:26,789 --> 00:18:29,764 like we're all one and we're connected, actually. 345 00:18:29,765 --> 00:18:31,882 It makes us feel alone, 346 00:18:31,883 --> 00:18:37,350 lonely, inferior, insecure, depressed, anxious. 347 00:18:37,351 --> 00:18:40,872 The levels of all of these emotional issues and 348 00:18:40,873 --> 00:18:45,054 children using social media is skyrocketing, and it correlates 349 00:18:45,055 --> 00:18:47,884 directly with the start of social media. 350 00:18:47,885 --> 00:18:51,372 So it's polarization that's happening online because of 351 00:18:51,373 --> 00:18:53,356 some of the content, but also just this 352 00:18:53,357 --> 00:19:03,590 dynamic of what it's doing to our brains. 353 00:19:06,190 --> 00:19:11,850 (Duane) Now let's go to a related problem, and I say related 354 00:19:11,851 --> 00:19:15,604 because there are a lot of parts to this other problem 355 00:19:15,605 --> 00:19:19,140 as well that also contribute to the polarization issue. 356 00:19:19,141 --> 00:19:22,650 And that is what is happening with journalism. 357 00:19:22,651 --> 00:19:24,878 Oh, my God, journalism. 358 00:19:24,879 --> 00:19:27,438 I mean, we're all seeing it like it's 359 00:19:27,439 --> 00:19:29,670 happening right in front of our eyes. 360 00:19:29,671 --> 00:19:33,646 The idea of objective journalism is dead 361 00:19:33,647 --> 00:19:36,908 as a doorknob. I work with most of 362 00:19:36,909 --> 00:19:40,066 the major news organizations in my professional capacity. 363 00:19:40,067 --> 00:19:42,370 Nobody aspires to objective news anymore. 364 00:19:42,371 --> 00:19:45,510 It's like objective news is seen as a ratings killer. 365 00:19:46,090 --> 00:19:48,176 It's a horrible thing to see. 366 00:19:48,177 --> 00:19:50,544 But let's talk about this. 367 00:19:50,545 --> 00:19:55,120 I often talk about how the idea of objective news 368 00:19:55,121 --> 00:19:59,334 was itself the byproduct of the invention of the telegraph. 369 00:19:59,335 --> 00:20:01,418 Because before the telegraph, 370 00:20:01,419 --> 00:20:03,754 news was inherently partisan. 371 00:20:03,755 --> 00:20:08,026 People subscribed to the newspaper 372 00:20:08,027 --> 00:20:09,962 that reflected their perspective. 373 00:20:09,963 --> 00:20:12,004 And so this kind of perspective to a 374 00:20:12,005 --> 00:20:14,890 story was what differentiated a news outlet. 375 00:20:14,891 --> 00:20:16,328 But the only thing that was 376 00:20:16,329 --> 00:20:19,758 more powerful than perspective was speed. 377 00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:22,664 And so if you were in the Civil War, if you 378 00:20:22,665 --> 00:20:25,496 were at a battle scene and you could report on that, 379 00:20:25,497 --> 00:20:28,994 and if you could get that story back, like near instantly, 380 00:20:28,995 --> 00:20:32,002 that would trump any kind of partisan perspective. 381 00:20:32,003 --> 00:20:34,812 And so the wire services were born because 382 00:20:34,813 --> 00:20:37,260 it was much more cost efficient to have 383 00:20:37,261 --> 00:20:40,368 one version of the story distributed to everybody. 384 00:20:40,369 --> 00:20:43,222 And the telegraph was massively expensive. 385 00:20:43,223 --> 00:20:45,648 And so this created this idea that you 386 00:20:45,649 --> 00:20:48,240 wanted to have scale to the story, really 387 00:20:48,241 --> 00:20:51,250 created this idea of objective news. 388 00:20:51,251 --> 00:20:54,450 And really, it's been in the past 20 years 389 00:20:54,451 --> 00:20:58,884 that we've seen the underlying technology that, if you 390 00:20:58,885 --> 00:21:02,026 will, gave rise to objective news get challenged largely 391 00:21:02,027 --> 00:21:06,590 by digital technologies which were, of course, much faster, 392 00:21:06,591 --> 00:21:10,302 very different, but which are dramatically changing the dynamic 393 00:21:10,303 --> 00:21:11,704 of what journalism is. 394 00:21:11,705 --> 00:21:14,936 I don't even understand how anybody who goes to 395 00:21:14,937 --> 00:21:18,188 a journalism program, you're still trained to be this 396 00:21:18,189 --> 00:21:20,988 objective journalist, but somehow you graduate and you go 397 00:21:20,989 --> 00:21:24,492 into a professional news organization, or even worse, into 398 00:21:24,493 --> 00:21:28,128 the social media sphere, and something happens and you 399 00:21:28,129 --> 00:21:30,790 become a very different kind of journalist overnight. 400 00:21:30,791 --> 00:21:35,472 So this is a major crisis because this is the 401 00:21:35,473 --> 00:21:39,200 diet that we're being fed to understand the world around 402 00:21:39,201 --> 00:21:42,750 us, and it's just not clear what that is anymore. 403 00:21:43,810 --> 00:21:46,292 (Lisa) Well, I think that's a really interesting set 404 00:21:46,293 --> 00:21:50,292 of observations about the history of media. Sure. 405 00:21:50,293 --> 00:21:54,382 Polarization, again, is a long term human phenomena. 406 00:21:54,383 --> 00:21:57,486 I think there are some similarities. 407 00:21:57,487 --> 00:22:00,632 I talked about TV shows being more polarized now, 408 00:22:00,633 --> 00:22:05,112 too, because as technology has advanced, it's also much 409 00:22:05,113 --> 00:22:07,932 cheaper to create your own radio station, your own 410 00:22:07,933 --> 00:22:11,682 podcast, your own TV station, the newspaper. 411 00:22:11,683 --> 00:22:13,836 And so as the costs of technology 412 00:22:13,837 --> 00:22:17,180 decrease, more people create these things. 413 00:22:17,181 --> 00:22:19,558 And then actually all media becomes 414 00:22:19,559 --> 00:22:21,542 more polarized as people start listening 415 00:22:21,543 --> 00:22:25,670 to things that reconfirm their beliefs. 416 00:22:25,671 --> 00:22:27,856 So there's part of that that's happening. 417 00:22:27,857 --> 00:22:30,742 But I think there's some real differences between traditional 418 00:22:30,743 --> 00:22:33,466 media and social media, and that is with traditional 419 00:22:33,467 --> 00:22:37,012 media, you still have editors such as yourself. 420 00:22:37,013 --> 00:22:39,268 As an editor of this podcast, you get to 421 00:22:39,269 --> 00:22:41,988 decide what part of what I'm saying you keep. 422 00:22:41,989 --> 00:22:45,498 But an editor at the New York Times or at NBC 423 00:22:45,499 --> 00:22:50,110 News is deciding what are the stories, what are the priorities 424 00:22:50,111 --> 00:22:52,606 to say, and how are we going to tell these stories 425 00:22:52,607 --> 00:22:55,532 where on social media there are no editors, right? 426 00:22:55,533 --> 00:22:57,628 So it's everybody talking to everybody. 427 00:22:57,629 --> 00:23:01,324 There's no journalist or editor or editorial board 428 00:23:01,325 --> 00:23:04,636 who's just making these decisions, kind of trying 429 00:23:04,637 --> 00:23:09,050 to follow some semblance of professional journalistic ethics 430 00:23:09,051 --> 00:23:11,328 or thinking about the public interest. 431 00:23:11,329 --> 00:23:13,168 So I think what we've seen is sort 432 00:23:13,169 --> 00:23:17,216 of the weaponization of the democratization of media. 433 00:23:17,217 --> 00:23:19,728 When social media first started, we thought of it 434 00:23:19,729 --> 00:23:23,546 as the democratization where everybody can now publish. 435 00:23:23,547 --> 00:23:26,148 It can be citizen journalism, and we can 436 00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:28,970 have human rights defenders all over the planet 437 00:23:28,971 --> 00:23:32,596 posting their stories and sharing and starting social 438 00:23:32,597 --> 00:23:35,146 movements like we saw with the Arab Spring. 439 00:23:35,147 --> 00:23:37,800 But yes, that still is happening. 440 00:23:37,801 --> 00:23:40,590 And actually, social media has really democratized 441 00:23:40,591 --> 00:23:43,032 access to tell your own story. 442 00:23:43,033 --> 00:23:46,226 At the same time, we have millions 443 00:23:46,227 --> 00:23:49,474 of cyber armies around the world posting 444 00:23:49,475 --> 00:23:53,868 false, deceptive, divisive, polarizing information with the 445 00:23:53,869 --> 00:23:58,670 goal of dividing and undermining, splitting humanity. 446 00:23:58,671 --> 00:24:02,048 And so it's actually the same thing that's happened with 447 00:24:02,049 --> 00:24:05,958 weapon systems, because weapons are now also democratized, where it's 448 00:24:05,959 --> 00:24:08,304 really easy to get a machine gun now. 449 00:24:08,305 --> 00:24:13,962 And democratization of access to powerful tools like weapons 450 00:24:13,963 --> 00:24:17,418 or media has an upside and a real downside. 451 00:24:17,419 --> 00:24:19,684 I'm not sure there's an upside to weapons, but 452 00:24:19,685 --> 00:24:24,148 anyway, with media, and there are consequences to this. 453 00:24:24,149 --> 00:24:26,692 (Duane) In your book, you have a number of examples, a 454 00:24:26,693 --> 00:24:29,038 number of studies that you cite that are really fascinating. 455 00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:30,696 I'd like to share some of these 456 00:24:30,697 --> 00:24:32,900 with the audience because they're so amazing. 457 00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:35,388 There was a study that you talk about that 458 00:24:35,389 --> 00:24:38,188 the Wall Street Journal did, where they found that 459 00:24:38,189 --> 00:24:41,852 a YouTube algorithm more often is more likely to 460 00:24:41,853 --> 00:24:45,640 recommend misleading content for reputable news. 461 00:24:47,370 --> 00:24:49,552 I mean, that's scary, right? 462 00:24:49,553 --> 00:24:52,000 Other things being equal, you would think 463 00:24:52,001 --> 00:24:54,592 that an algorithm would pick the more 464 00:24:54,593 --> 00:24:56,944 reputable, the more reliable news. 465 00:24:56,945 --> 00:25:00,038 But here's the study saying, no, it's the opposite. 466 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:02,996 You have these rumor cascades, and there's this 467 00:25:02,997 --> 00:25:05,322 MIT study that you talk about where false 468 00:25:05,323 --> 00:25:09,524 news will spread faster than true news. 469 00:25:09,525 --> 00:25:11,770 Again, what a shocker. 470 00:25:11,771 --> 00:25:13,204 How scary is that? 471 00:25:13,205 --> 00:25:15,934 You have this whole problem with people relying 472 00:25:15,935 --> 00:25:18,616 increasingly on social media for their news. 473 00:25:18,617 --> 00:25:20,078 I mean, half of the world's 474 00:25:20,079 --> 00:25:23,090 population subscribe to Meta or Facebook. 475 00:25:23,670 --> 00:25:25,342 They're much more likely. 476 00:25:25,343 --> 00:25:26,972 The people who get their news from 477 00:25:26,973 --> 00:25:29,964 social media are far more likely to 478 00:25:29,965 --> 00:25:32,316 have an inaccurate picture of the world. 479 00:25:32,317 --> 00:25:33,308 They're much more likely to 480 00:25:33,309 --> 00:25:35,762 buy into conspiracy theories. 481 00:25:35,763 --> 00:25:38,882 You have the problem with the whole echo chamber 482 00:25:38,883 --> 00:25:42,384 phenomena, where because of the algorithm, looking at what 483 00:25:42,385 --> 00:25:44,304 you're clicking on, it's giving you more of what 484 00:25:44,305 --> 00:25:46,182 you're clicking on, and that accelerates. 485 00:25:46,183 --> 00:25:48,592 And so it's easier to believe what 486 00:25:48,593 --> 00:25:50,822 you already believe is what everybody believes, 487 00:25:50,823 --> 00:25:52,992 because that's the reality that you see. 488 00:25:52,993 --> 00:25:55,268 And it becomes harder and harder for you to 489 00:25:55,269 --> 00:25:58,356 even understand that there can be an alternative view, 490 00:25:58,357 --> 00:26:00,324 because you never see the alternative view. 491 00:26:00,325 --> 00:26:02,628 All you see is the people who have the view 492 00:26:02,629 --> 00:26:05,672 that you already have reinforced more and more and more. 493 00:26:05,673 --> 00:26:10,136 So it just seems so consequential in terms 494 00:26:10,137 --> 00:26:14,100 of how people understand the world around them. 495 00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:15,380 (Lisa) Absolutely. 496 00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:18,396 I think the other part of this journalism piece 497 00:26:18,397 --> 00:26:21,692 that I wanted to mention is also how the 498 00:26:21,693 --> 00:26:25,628 profit model of social media, which is making money 499 00:26:25,629 --> 00:26:29,040 on showing people ads, has undermined the profit model 500 00:26:29,041 --> 00:26:31,510 of public interest news sources. 501 00:26:31,511 --> 00:26:36,656 That the more professional journalistic programs on TV or 502 00:26:36,657 --> 00:26:40,228 on newspapers, they also rely on ads, some of 503 00:26:40,229 --> 00:26:44,282 them, and their subscriptions have vastly declined. 504 00:26:44,283 --> 00:26:46,532 So many local newspapers now have gone 505 00:26:46,533 --> 00:26:48,676 out of business because of social media. 506 00:26:48,677 --> 00:26:53,048 So we actually have fewer professional journalists doing the 507 00:26:53,049 --> 00:26:56,856 work while we have more people getting fake news 508 00:26:56,857 --> 00:27:01,710 and reading what China, Russia or Iran are planting 509 00:27:01,711 --> 00:27:03,838 in the US social media sphere. 510 00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:06,390 Hiding as Americans, basically. 511 00:27:06,391 --> 00:27:08,780 (Duane) And it's not only that, it's also that 512 00:27:08,781 --> 00:27:12,450 it changes the way that journalists practice journalism 513 00:27:12,451 --> 00:27:14,882 because they have to respond to the pressure. 514 00:27:14,883 --> 00:27:17,708 So just in my own interaction with journalists, just 515 00:27:17,709 --> 00:27:20,604 to give an example, I remember a decade ago 516 00:27:20,605 --> 00:27:22,928 when I would be called by a journalist for 517 00:27:22,929 --> 00:27:26,272 an interview, what I said wasn't good enough. 518 00:27:26,273 --> 00:27:28,272 Like, if I said, this company is my 519 00:27:28,273 --> 00:27:30,032 client, they didn't go on what I said. 520 00:27:30,033 --> 00:27:31,088 They had to verify that. 521 00:27:31,089 --> 00:27:33,348 So they would call the company and they would know. 522 00:27:33,349 --> 00:27:34,762 Duane says that you're his client. 523 00:27:34,763 --> 00:27:36,290 Are you really his client? 524 00:27:36,291 --> 00:27:41,242 Like, there was this need for verifying the accuracy 525 00:27:41,243 --> 00:27:43,396 of the story, and there was a lot of 526 00:27:43,397 --> 00:27:47,440 effort that was put there. But that takes time. 527 00:27:48,530 --> 00:27:52,456 And when you're competing with the speed of social media, 528 00:27:52,457 --> 00:27:54,862 you just don't have the ability to do that anymore. 529 00:27:54,863 --> 00:27:57,868 As a professional journalist, by the time you do 530 00:27:57,869 --> 00:28:00,108 it, the story will have come and gone almost. 531 00:28:00,109 --> 00:28:02,140 So what you find is that 532 00:28:02,141 --> 00:28:04,562 professional journalists now are cutting corners. 533 00:28:04,563 --> 00:28:05,378 Suddenly. 534 00:28:05,379 --> 00:28:07,154 They don't do the verifying. 535 00:28:07,155 --> 00:28:09,184 Now they get the story, they run with it, and 536 00:28:09,185 --> 00:28:13,798 you get all these incredible, ridiculous instances of major errors 537 00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:17,104 that journalists do because they're not the same journalists that 538 00:28:17,105 --> 00:28:20,532 they were a decade ago because of these influences that 539 00:28:20,533 --> 00:28:23,570 have come into their game, so to speak. 540 00:28:23,571 --> 00:28:25,236 (Lisa) I think you're absolutely right. 541 00:28:25,237 --> 00:28:28,420 And there's sort of an infantilization, actually, 542 00:28:28,421 --> 00:28:31,524 of all journalism, because as social media, 543 00:28:31,525 --> 00:28:35,400 highly emotional journalism is keeping people so 544 00:28:35,401 --> 00:28:37,880 emotionally aroused all the time. 545 00:28:37,881 --> 00:28:40,296 And then they expect also their 546 00:28:40,297 --> 00:28:43,982 regular news to be emotionally engaging. 547 00:28:43,983 --> 00:28:46,700 In the same way, what we learn 548 00:28:46,701 --> 00:28:50,764 about cognitive development is that children, young 549 00:28:50,765 --> 00:28:54,802 people, things that are emotional, are overwhelming 550 00:28:54,803 --> 00:28:56,642 for them more often than for adults. 551 00:28:56,643 --> 00:29:00,304 The whole process of becoming an adult is learning 552 00:29:00,305 --> 00:29:05,264 how to acknowledge your emotions, manage your emotions, and 553 00:29:05,265 --> 00:29:09,536 to be able to reflect on your emotional state 554 00:29:09,537 --> 00:29:12,096 and control it in some states, or manage it. 555 00:29:12,097 --> 00:29:13,748 Not that emotions are bad. 556 00:29:13,749 --> 00:29:14,916 Emotions are good. 557 00:29:14,917 --> 00:29:17,642 They indicate to us when we feel strongly. 558 00:29:17,643 --> 00:29:21,226 But as an adult, you're expected to be able to reflect. 559 00:29:21,227 --> 00:29:24,968 When I'm feeling angry or outraged, I'm going to 560 00:29:24,969 --> 00:29:27,832 moderate my behavior and how I interact with others. 561 00:29:27,833 --> 00:29:31,304 But what media now does to us is 562 00:29:31,305 --> 00:29:34,968 say that emotional engagement is profiting me. 563 00:29:34,969 --> 00:29:36,402 So I'm going to keep you emotionally 564 00:29:36,403 --> 00:29:39,052 engaged as much as I possibly can. 565 00:29:39,053 --> 00:29:41,932 And real journalists and news organizations are 566 00:29:41,933 --> 00:29:45,372 finding that sort of this infantilization of 567 00:29:45,373 --> 00:29:49,196 keeping people outraged is profiting them too. 568 00:29:49,197 --> 00:29:52,166 And so I guess this is the question then, for humanity. 569 00:29:52,167 --> 00:29:53,648 We cannot solve problems when 570 00:29:53,649 --> 00:29:56,406 we're all completely emotionally engaged. 571 00:29:56,407 --> 00:29:58,438 How do we move people to the frontal 572 00:29:58,439 --> 00:30:00,996 cortex, to the front of their brain, where 573 00:30:00,997 --> 00:30:03,396 they can solve problems, where they can think 574 00:30:03,397 --> 00:30:06,640 rationally and make sense of complex information? 575 00:30:07,490 --> 00:30:13,096 This is degrading the IQ of humanity, and it's making 576 00:30:13,097 --> 00:30:15,944 it harder for us all to solve other problems. 577 00:30:15,945 --> 00:30:21,022 Migration, climate crisis, pollution, water shortages, 578 00:30:21,023 --> 00:30:22,648 all the many things that are 579 00:30:22,649 --> 00:30:25,736 facing societies all over the world. Yeah. 580 00:30:25,737 --> 00:30:28,792 (Duane) This idea of shifting from, as you say, the 581 00:30:28,793 --> 00:30:30,908 lizard self to the rational self, it seems like 582 00:30:30,909 --> 00:30:33,132 that's the dilemma of our age, right? 583 00:30:33,133 --> 00:30:35,554 I mean, when you think about the ultimate remedy 584 00:30:35,555 --> 00:30:38,444 to these problems, it's not a particular social policy. 585 00:30:38,445 --> 00:30:41,232 It's about this much larger problem that we have 586 00:30:41,233 --> 00:30:44,032 of feeding this base self and trying to get 587 00:30:44,033 --> 00:30:47,750 that to transcend to the higher version of ourselves. 588 00:30:47,751 --> 00:30:49,312 I mean, that just seems like 589 00:30:49,313 --> 00:30:50,692 that's what it's really all about. 590 00:30:50,693 --> 00:31:01,268 At the end of the day, what 591 00:31:01,269 --> 00:31:03,508 I'd love to do is just to 592 00:31:03,509 --> 00:31:08,238 help illustrate how incredibly consequential this becomes. 593 00:31:08,239 --> 00:31:09,886 You have a number of case studies. 594 00:31:09,887 --> 00:31:13,294 I love the case studies looking at different nations. 595 00:31:13,295 --> 00:31:15,208 And one of the ones that really stood out 596 00:31:15,209 --> 00:31:18,332 for me was the story of what happened in 597 00:31:18,333 --> 00:31:21,266 Myanmar, the country formerly known as Burma. 598 00:31:21,267 --> 00:31:23,612 I'm sure everybody is really acquainted with 599 00:31:23,613 --> 00:31:27,372 this whole plight of the, you know, Ruhingya Muslims 600 00:31:27,373 --> 00:31:30,822 and their forced migration into Bangladesh. 601 00:31:30,823 --> 00:31:32,864 I mean, it's such a very sad story, but I 602 00:31:32,865 --> 00:31:35,888 think what people don't know and the story that they 603 00:31:35,889 --> 00:31:41,700 don't understand is the role that social media played in 604 00:31:41,701 --> 00:31:45,642 the events that led ultimately to this great human catastrophe. 605 00:31:45,643 --> 00:31:48,468 So maybe you could tell us that story so 606 00:31:48,469 --> 00:31:52,180 we can better understand how that all happened. (Lisa) Sure. 607 00:31:52,181 --> 00:31:57,470 So, in around 2013, 2012, the Myanmar military 608 00:31:57,471 --> 00:32:03,192 began using Facebook to motivate and mobilize the 609 00:32:03,193 --> 00:32:06,850 public to be outraged at the muslim population. 610 00:32:06,851 --> 00:32:09,490 And they did this by posting fake 611 00:32:09,491 --> 00:32:13,842 and inflammatory stories on Facebook, accusing Muslims 612 00:32:13,843 --> 00:32:16,252 of killing Buddhists in the country. 613 00:32:16,253 --> 00:32:18,672 It's a primarily Buddhist country, and 614 00:32:18,673 --> 00:32:20,662 it's a form of Buddhism. 615 00:32:20,663 --> 00:32:23,168 Just like there's forms of Christianity and 616 00:32:23,169 --> 00:32:27,718 Islam, there's some types of religious expression 617 00:32:27,719 --> 00:32:30,102 that become very extreme and violent. 618 00:32:30,103 --> 00:32:33,636 And this group of Buddhists is very violent. Yeah. 619 00:32:33,637 --> 00:32:38,228 So they posted fake videos and photos of what 620 00:32:38,229 --> 00:32:43,416 they said was Muslims killing Budhists and basically told 621 00:32:43,417 --> 00:32:45,566 people to go out and kill Muslims. 622 00:32:45,567 --> 00:32:47,304 And that's exactly what happened. 623 00:32:47,305 --> 00:32:50,830 There was a genocide against the muslim population 624 00:32:50,831 --> 00:32:54,990 in Myanmar, and now there's been a lawsuit 625 00:32:54,991 --> 00:32:58,674 against Facebook by the allies of the Rohingya 626 00:32:58,675 --> 00:33:03,020 Muslims to know Facebook was the communication tool 627 00:33:03,021 --> 00:33:05,612 that allowed this genocide to happen. 628 00:33:05,613 --> 00:33:10,006 And the civil society in Myanmar, they sent representatives 629 00:33:10,007 --> 00:33:13,926 to Facebook's headquarters out in San Francisco in Palo 630 00:33:13,927 --> 00:33:17,950 Alto, and said, please stop, turn off your algorithm, 631 00:33:17,951 --> 00:33:21,972 dismantle or deplatform these accounts that the military is 632 00:33:21,973 --> 00:33:24,000 using to spread this false information. 633 00:33:24,530 --> 00:33:27,402 And Facebook did not respond. 634 00:33:27,403 --> 00:33:31,490 And it was actually years before Facebook kind of 635 00:33:31,491 --> 00:33:34,670 recognized that this was not just happening in Myanmar, 636 00:33:34,671 --> 00:33:36,696 this was happening all over the world. 637 00:33:36,697 --> 00:33:39,064 And so the authors that write the chapters in 638 00:33:39,065 --> 00:33:43,294 this book that, you know, they're detailing how Facebook 639 00:33:43,295 --> 00:33:49,100 is fundamentally changing their society and often polarizing people 640 00:33:49,101 --> 00:33:52,450 along existing divisions in different countries. 641 00:33:52,451 --> 00:33:54,220 Ethnic groups already are different. 642 00:33:54,221 --> 00:33:55,468 They have a different history. 643 00:33:55,469 --> 00:33:57,900 They sometimes don't like each other. 644 00:33:57,901 --> 00:33:59,798 They have different political views. 645 00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:03,472 But then what Facebook does is just throw fuel on 646 00:34:03,473 --> 00:34:06,128 that and light a match and just let it go. 647 00:34:06,129 --> 00:34:11,300 So from Kenya to Zimbabwe to Colombia and 648 00:34:11,301 --> 00:34:14,826 Venezuela, this is happening all over the planet, 649 00:34:14,827 --> 00:34:18,931 where violence and hate speech starts online and 650 00:34:18,932 --> 00:34:21,795 then quickly slips off into the real world. 651 00:34:21,796 --> 00:34:24,456 Into real world violence. (Duane) Yeah. 652 00:34:24,457 --> 00:34:26,232 The beauty of the chapter as well. 653 00:34:26,233 --> 00:34:30,014 It's so well written is that it paints the picture. 654 00:34:30,015 --> 00:34:32,952 Not so much of Facebook being like an 655 00:34:32,953 --> 00:34:35,864 evil party trying to make this happen. 656 00:34:35,865 --> 00:34:37,192 That's not the story. 657 00:34:37,193 --> 00:34:39,404 The story really is more that know. 658 00:34:39,405 --> 00:34:42,210 I think the term was an absentee landlord. 659 00:34:42,211 --> 00:34:44,578 I mean, it's not happening accidentally. 660 00:34:44,579 --> 00:34:47,148 Most people's understanding of the Internet in 661 00:34:47,149 --> 00:34:49,250 Myanmar at the time was Facebook. 662 00:34:49,251 --> 00:34:50,886 Like, there was no other Internet. 663 00:34:50,887 --> 00:34:52,998 I mean, that's what they understood as the Internet. 664 00:34:52,999 --> 00:34:55,350 They had gone through this telecommunication liberalization 665 00:34:55,351 --> 00:34:58,550 program, which made mobile phones very accessible. 666 00:34:58,551 --> 00:35:00,992 Facebook was on the phone for a period of time. 667 00:35:00,993 --> 00:35:03,684 Facebook had this program where access 668 00:35:03,685 --> 00:35:05,860 to its platform was free. 669 00:35:05,861 --> 00:35:07,316 And so that was what people 670 00:35:07,317 --> 00:35:09,082 could experience as the Internet. 671 00:35:09,083 --> 00:35:11,428 It was in their local language, so it 672 00:35:11,429 --> 00:35:13,316 wasn't foreign content that they couldn't read. 673 00:35:13,317 --> 00:35:15,428 So all of this was the reason why 674 00:35:15,429 --> 00:35:16,936 Facebook was in the position it did. 675 00:35:16,937 --> 00:35:20,062 But the part that makes Facebook so culpable 676 00:35:20,063 --> 00:35:22,888 in the story was the negligent kind of, 677 00:35:22,889 --> 00:35:25,430 like, approach they took to their platform. 678 00:35:25,431 --> 00:35:28,988 Know, you could count literally on one hand, 679 00:35:28,989 --> 00:35:31,532 it was less than five people throughout this 680 00:35:31,533 --> 00:35:35,602 entire period that had any knowledge of Myanmar, 681 00:35:35,603 --> 00:35:38,410 most of whom didn't even speak Burmese. 682 00:35:38,411 --> 00:35:40,768 Who are the people who are responsible for all the 683 00:35:40,769 --> 00:35:44,016 decisions about what Facebook and Myanmar is going to be. 684 00:35:44,017 --> 00:35:47,526 And so there was really no capacity to moderate. 685 00:35:47,527 --> 00:35:50,614 And once you had bad actors who understood 686 00:35:50,615 --> 00:35:53,092 how to capitalize on that system, I mean, 687 00:35:53,093 --> 00:35:56,132 they could just basically use it for anything. 688 00:35:56,133 --> 00:35:57,738 It's not the first time that we've 689 00:35:57,739 --> 00:36:00,372 seen these studies that look at the 690 00:36:00,373 --> 00:36:02,634 relationship between media and genocide. 691 00:36:02,635 --> 00:36:06,280 Rwanda with radio, of course, is a classic example, 692 00:36:06,281 --> 00:36:08,968 but there are dimensions to the social media which 693 00:36:08,969 --> 00:36:13,304 are so dramatically different to the more traditional media 694 00:36:13,305 --> 00:36:16,410 instruments that we've seen historically in the past. 695 00:36:16,411 --> 00:36:17,452 (Lisa) Yeah, absolutely. 696 00:36:17,453 --> 00:36:19,068 That's why the title of my book is 697 00:36:19,069 --> 00:36:21,714 Social Media Impacts on Conflict and Democracy. 698 00:36:21,715 --> 00:36:25,250 The subtitle is the Tech-tonic shift. 699 00:36:25,251 --> 00:36:28,022 It's a play on the word tectonic, spelled 700 00:36:28,023 --> 00:36:33,334 T E C H, because technology is fundamentally shifting 701 00:36:33,335 --> 00:36:38,422 the way societies hold together or fall apart. 702 00:36:38,423 --> 00:36:41,056 And I think that technology has 703 00:36:41,057 --> 00:36:42,948 the potential to hold us together. 704 00:36:42,949 --> 00:36:44,436 And a lot of my work now 705 00:36:44,437 --> 00:36:47,140 is on peace tech and democracy tech. 706 00:36:47,141 --> 00:36:51,588 But technology as it stands today, in 2024, 707 00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:54,842 it is having a negative impact on societies. 708 00:36:54,843 --> 00:36:57,752 It is polarizing and amplifying the 709 00:36:57,753 --> 00:37:00,024 problems rather than solving problems. 710 00:37:00,025 --> 00:37:03,300 (Duane) Oh, great point. Very true. So true. 711 00:37:12,490 --> 00:37:17,452 So, Lisa, let's talk now about what 712 00:37:17,453 --> 00:37:19,484 we can do about this problem. 713 00:37:19,485 --> 00:37:21,568 So I think you've done a great job. 714 00:37:21,569 --> 00:37:25,984 You've made the case social media play a role, however it 715 00:37:25,985 --> 00:37:28,192 is that we want to understand what that role is. 716 00:37:28,193 --> 00:37:30,672 It's consequential, for sure. 717 00:37:30,673 --> 00:37:32,656 And in your book, you talk a lot 718 00:37:32,657 --> 00:37:36,196 about social policy, those kinds of things that 719 00:37:36,197 --> 00:37:39,236 are high level solutions to the problem. 720 00:37:39,237 --> 00:37:41,780 But I want to bring you down to the ground level. 721 00:37:41,781 --> 00:37:45,440 I want us to talk about what we can do. 722 00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:48,168 One of the thoughts that I had as I was 723 00:37:48,169 --> 00:37:51,982 reflecting on your book was we have become very conscious 724 00:37:51,983 --> 00:37:56,200 as societies about our diets and what we eat. 725 00:37:56,201 --> 00:37:57,496 It wasn't always the case. 726 00:37:57,497 --> 00:37:59,640 But I mean, now you go to McDonald's or 727 00:37:59,641 --> 00:38:01,906 you go anywhere, you look at what the calories 728 00:38:01,907 --> 00:38:03,756 are, you go to the store, you buy something. 729 00:38:03,757 --> 00:38:05,842 I mean, we have become very conscious 730 00:38:05,843 --> 00:38:08,114 as a society of our diet. 731 00:38:08,115 --> 00:38:10,514 We may still eat bad things, but we're 732 00:38:10,515 --> 00:38:13,792 very aware that that's what we're doing. 733 00:38:13,793 --> 00:38:16,566 We eat a potato chip, we feel a little bit guilty. 734 00:38:16,567 --> 00:38:18,582 We've just become very aware of diet. 735 00:38:18,583 --> 00:38:21,392 And in the same way, I think what we click 736 00:38:21,393 --> 00:38:24,436 on, what we do, that is our diet as well. 737 00:38:24,437 --> 00:38:25,818 I mean, it's our intellectual 738 00:38:25,819 --> 00:38:27,834 diet, our communication diet. 739 00:38:27,835 --> 00:38:32,116 But what is it that we can do in our 740 00:38:32,117 --> 00:38:36,088 own lives, in the things that we ultimately control in 741 00:38:36,089 --> 00:38:39,416 the limited circles of people that we interact with? 742 00:38:39,417 --> 00:38:41,848 What can we do at that level to 743 00:38:41,849 --> 00:38:46,740 help address this particular problem with social media? 744 00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:50,892 (Lisa) Thanks so much for asking that question, because many 745 00:38:50,893 --> 00:38:53,148 of the solutions are not in our hands, but 746 00:38:53,149 --> 00:38:55,452 we do have power in this situation. 747 00:38:55,453 --> 00:38:59,238 I would start off by just saying, being aware 748 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,512 of our emotional state and recognizing when content that 749 00:39:04,513 --> 00:39:09,302 we see online is emotionally engaging, but maybe pushes 750 00:39:09,303 --> 00:39:12,426 us a little bit too far, too emotionally obsessed, 751 00:39:12,427 --> 00:39:14,788 or sort of, what is our level one to 752 00:39:14,789 --> 00:39:18,068 five of emotion when we're reading something? 753 00:39:18,069 --> 00:39:21,876 And is it allowing us to think through the issue? 754 00:39:21,877 --> 00:39:25,096 Or is it sort of a five keeping us 755 00:39:25,097 --> 00:39:30,488 sort of hyperemotionally engaged and wanting to respond out 756 00:39:30,489 --> 00:39:33,486 of that emotion rather than out of an ability 757 00:39:33,487 --> 00:39:38,514 to think complex thoughts or think about the ambiguity 758 00:39:38,515 --> 00:39:40,440 or the complexity of the situation. 759 00:39:41,050 --> 00:39:42,716 So that's the first thing. 760 00:39:42,717 --> 00:39:45,996 And I would say the main lesson here is if 761 00:39:45,997 --> 00:39:49,328 you're feeling really emotional when you read something online, do 762 00:39:49,329 --> 00:39:52,720 not share it and really don't even comment on it. 763 00:39:52,721 --> 00:39:55,728 Come back later if you want to, but 764 00:39:55,729 --> 00:40:00,060 just really note that you're being manipulated online. 765 00:40:01,250 --> 00:40:02,452 The design of these 766 00:40:02,453 --> 00:40:05,178 platforms is emotionally manipulated. 767 00:40:05,179 --> 00:40:08,532 And the more we understand that as individuals, the 768 00:40:08,533 --> 00:40:11,754 more we can get a hold of this manipulation 769 00:40:11,755 --> 00:40:15,326 and hunch through it into some sort of sanity. 770 00:40:15,327 --> 00:40:19,416 Again, I love that because definitely a big 771 00:40:19,417 --> 00:40:22,968 part of it is creating a moment of 772 00:40:22,969 --> 00:40:28,572 separation between reading it and reacting to it. 773 00:40:28,573 --> 00:40:31,708 And if you can create that moment, it just gives you 774 00:40:31,709 --> 00:40:37,212 the opportunity to reflect instead of just react, which is so 775 00:40:37,213 --> 00:40:41,952 much a part of how those algorithms really work. Yeah. 776 00:40:41,953 --> 00:40:45,024 The second choice is to really look for 777 00:40:45,025 --> 00:40:49,952 spaces online where people are actually engaging and 778 00:40:49,953 --> 00:40:52,820 learning from each other, where there's some kind 779 00:40:52,821 --> 00:40:58,960 of norms within the group that promote learning. 780 00:40:59,650 --> 00:41:03,710 And so you go online to exchange views, 781 00:41:03,711 --> 00:41:07,256 to actually have a real exploration of how 782 00:41:07,257 --> 00:41:10,248 different experiences that people have had in their 783 00:41:10,249 --> 00:41:12,770 life have led them to different conclusions. 784 00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:16,236 I think, for me, I'm getting less and less 785 00:41:16,237 --> 00:41:20,658 interested in the dramatic arenas where people are fighting, 786 00:41:20,659 --> 00:41:24,492 and I'm more interested in really learning how people 787 00:41:24,493 --> 00:41:28,588 of the other political party in my group here, 788 00:41:28,589 --> 00:41:30,080 how they think about things. 789 00:41:30,081 --> 00:41:31,632 What led them to think about this? 790 00:41:31,633 --> 00:41:34,704 I'm truly curious, and I want to 791 00:41:34,705 --> 00:41:37,088 be in places where everyone's curious and 792 00:41:37,089 --> 00:41:39,744 they're willing to learn from each other. 793 00:41:39,745 --> 00:41:44,324 I think making that choice as an individual is a huge 794 00:41:44,325 --> 00:41:48,804 change, that not every space on the web is equally bad. 795 00:41:48,805 --> 00:41:52,218 There are places where people talk kindly 796 00:41:52,219 --> 00:41:54,776 and respectfully to each other, and they 797 00:41:54,777 --> 00:41:57,656 engage with issues in good ways. 798 00:41:57,657 --> 00:41:59,742 I'm part of the group Braver Angels. 799 00:41:59,743 --> 00:42:01,448 For example, Braver Angels is a 800 00:42:01,449 --> 00:42:04,530 U.S. group that works on political polarization. 801 00:42:05,830 --> 00:42:08,962 You know, they host meetings where Republicans 802 00:42:08,963 --> 00:42:11,132 and Democrats can talk to each other. 803 00:42:11,133 --> 00:42:13,596 They have moderators that help the 804 00:42:13,597 --> 00:42:17,634 conversation stay civil and constructive. 805 00:42:17,635 --> 00:42:20,704 And people are asked to come and learn. 806 00:42:20,705 --> 00:42:23,750 And I think that instead of battling 807 00:42:23,751 --> 00:42:26,288 people online, we should be thinking of 808 00:42:26,289 --> 00:42:30,210 it as a learning opportunity to understand 809 00:42:30,211 --> 00:42:33,594 how people in our communities think differently. 810 00:42:33,595 --> 00:42:35,978 (Duane) Wow, that's great, Lisa. 811 00:42:35,979 --> 00:42:40,692 So pick the forums that you go 812 00:42:40,693 --> 00:42:43,882 into, because not all are equal. 813 00:42:43,883 --> 00:42:46,730 Some are going to be more respectful, 814 00:42:46,731 --> 00:42:48,376 and some are going to know less 815 00:42:48,377 --> 00:42:50,632 respectful, and let's find those environments where 816 00:42:50,633 --> 00:42:53,590 the conversation is more dignified, more elevated. 817 00:42:53,591 --> 00:42:57,484 And then we've talked so far about kind of 818 00:42:57,485 --> 00:43:01,954 like how we read the social media universe. 819 00:43:01,955 --> 00:43:05,308 But let's talk about how you communicate, how you speak, 820 00:43:05,309 --> 00:43:08,396 how you talk in the social media world, and the 821 00:43:08,397 --> 00:43:13,488 need for some kind of new etiquette for how it 822 00:43:13,489 --> 00:43:16,432 is that people should communicate in this space. 823 00:43:16,433 --> 00:43:18,704 What do you think we should be doing in 824 00:43:18,705 --> 00:43:20,842 terms of building this new kind of, like, etiquette 825 00:43:20,843 --> 00:43:25,090 for expression in the social media sphere? 826 00:43:25,091 --> 00:43:26,690 (Lisa) Yes, absolutely. 827 00:43:26,691 --> 00:43:30,666 So when I am mediating between two people who disagree, 828 00:43:30,667 --> 00:43:34,936 the very first step is asking each person to share 829 00:43:34,937 --> 00:43:38,968 the experiences that they've had that led them to the 830 00:43:38,969 --> 00:43:42,664 current conflict, so they each tell their own story. 831 00:43:42,665 --> 00:43:45,858 And I think that we have sort of always skipped 832 00:43:45,859 --> 00:43:48,764 on social media to, this is what I believe. 833 00:43:48,765 --> 00:43:52,706 Now, rather than helping, backing up and explaining. 834 00:43:52,707 --> 00:43:57,132 So, like telling stories, personal experiences is a 835 00:43:57,133 --> 00:44:00,784 great way to start talking about an issue, 836 00:44:00,785 --> 00:44:04,768 because it allows people to humanize you to 837 00:44:04,769 --> 00:44:07,302 see that we do change our minds. 838 00:44:07,303 --> 00:44:11,168 And some of us really had really important 839 00:44:11,169 --> 00:44:14,058 experiences that have led us to shift beliefs. 840 00:44:14,059 --> 00:44:17,316 And this kind of humility too, of saying 841 00:44:17,317 --> 00:44:19,466 that I don't have all the answers. 842 00:44:19,467 --> 00:44:21,360 I used to have a different position. 843 00:44:21,890 --> 00:44:25,064 This starts creating a situation where there's a 844 00:44:25,065 --> 00:44:27,912 little vulnerability, but there's also just a sense 845 00:44:27,913 --> 00:44:30,328 of putting humanity in the center of the 846 00:44:30,329 --> 00:44:33,646 conversation of people telling their own stories. 847 00:44:33,647 --> 00:44:36,792 I think that if that's a norm on a platform, 848 00:44:36,793 --> 00:44:39,320 a norm is like the middle of the road. 849 00:44:39,321 --> 00:44:41,116 A guideline or a rule on social 850 00:44:41,117 --> 00:44:42,412 media is the edge of the road. 851 00:44:42,413 --> 00:44:45,132 And what we don't have right now are, what are the 852 00:44:45,133 --> 00:44:48,236 norms, the middle of the road, what you should aim for. 853 00:44:48,237 --> 00:44:51,122 And really, social media platforms should be reminding 854 00:44:51,123 --> 00:44:53,158 us not only of the rules, the edge 855 00:44:53,159 --> 00:44:54,768 of the road, but the middle. 856 00:44:54,769 --> 00:44:56,016 What do we aim for? 857 00:44:56,017 --> 00:44:57,680 What do we aspire to here? 858 00:44:57,681 --> 00:44:59,536 Like, to learn from each other, to share 859 00:44:59,537 --> 00:45:02,528 experiences, to understand different points of view. 860 00:45:02,529 --> 00:45:04,948 If we had pop ups that were telling us and 861 00:45:04,949 --> 00:45:08,548 reminding us of these things, I think that it would 862 00:45:08,549 --> 00:45:10,762 be better so we can make our own pop ups. 863 00:45:10,763 --> 00:45:12,852 Just write it down, a postit note, and put it 864 00:45:12,853 --> 00:45:15,604 on your desk to remind yourself to tell a story, 865 00:45:15,605 --> 00:45:19,592 share your experiences, and ask other people about what are 866 00:45:19,593 --> 00:45:21,790 the experiences that led you to that belief? 867 00:45:21,791 --> 00:45:23,768 Can you share a little bit more about your story? 868 00:45:23,769 --> 00:45:25,512 I use that line all the time 869 00:45:25,513 --> 00:45:28,460 on social media where nobody has maybe 870 00:45:28,461 --> 00:45:30,796 offered their story, but I'm inviting them. 871 00:45:30,797 --> 00:45:32,044 So I'm asking questions. 872 00:45:32,045 --> 00:45:35,436 I'm showing curiosity and why someone else 873 00:45:35,437 --> 00:45:38,188 believes something differently than I do. 874 00:45:38,189 --> 00:45:41,340 And that asking questions can also really 875 00:45:41,341 --> 00:45:44,562 take down the tone of a hostile 876 00:45:44,563 --> 00:45:49,138 and disagreement, (Duane) and to just be respectful, 877 00:45:49,139 --> 00:46:09,970 dignified, elevated human personal interaction. 878 00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:15,308 Here I'm visualizing life at the neighborhood level, and how 879 00:46:15,309 --> 00:46:20,028 is it that we can reengage in interpersonal dialogue at 880 00:46:20,029 --> 00:46:24,076 that level, you bump into people at the school, people 881 00:46:24,077 --> 00:46:27,138 in your work environment, in your work circles. 882 00:46:27,139 --> 00:46:30,160 Just how it is that we can not become 883 00:46:30,161 --> 00:46:34,102 overly dependent upon social media for our human interaction, 884 00:46:34,103 --> 00:46:36,022 but make sure that we have a real diet 885 00:46:36,023 --> 00:46:40,050 of human personal interaction as well. 886 00:46:40,051 --> 00:46:42,244 (Lisa) Well, I think that that's really tied to 887 00:46:42,245 --> 00:46:47,162 this emotional, addictive design of social media platforms. 888 00:46:47,163 --> 00:46:51,498 They are not a replacement for real world relationships, 889 00:46:51,499 --> 00:46:54,612 and there's all kinds of really, actually chemical things 890 00:46:54,613 --> 00:46:57,498 that happen between people when they are actually sitting 891 00:46:57,499 --> 00:46:59,918 in the same room or talking in the park 892 00:46:59,919 --> 00:47:01,896 to each other that don't happen on social media. 893 00:47:01,897 --> 00:47:03,678 So we have to be aware it's not a replacement. 894 00:47:03,679 --> 00:47:05,208 It's not the same thing. 895 00:47:05,209 --> 00:47:08,984 And I think I pay a lot more attention to when 896 00:47:08,985 --> 00:47:12,290 I meet one of my neighbors or somebody in the park. 897 00:47:12,291 --> 00:47:15,036 What are the social graces that we all learn? 898 00:47:15,037 --> 00:47:17,724 We say hello to each other, how are you doing? 899 00:47:17,725 --> 00:47:20,464 And my writing more recently has been 900 00:47:20,465 --> 00:47:22,910 like, how do we bring that online? 901 00:47:22,911 --> 00:47:25,942 So when somebody comments on something that I've 902 00:47:25,943 --> 00:47:28,550 posted online and it's a little bit hostile, 903 00:47:28,551 --> 00:47:30,608 I will say to them, oh, good morning. 904 00:47:30,609 --> 00:47:32,240 Nice to see you here. 905 00:47:32,241 --> 00:47:35,018 Almost like I would do if I saw them at the park. 906 00:47:35,019 --> 00:47:38,612 I want to start bringing on these social graces to 907 00:47:38,613 --> 00:47:41,812 social media to say, we have to greet each other. 908 00:47:41,813 --> 00:47:45,156 We don't just dive into arguing on something. 909 00:47:45,157 --> 00:47:48,710 It's really weird, actually, when you think about it. 910 00:47:48,711 --> 00:47:51,432 For all of our lives, we've learned that you 911 00:47:51,433 --> 00:47:54,024 say hello to somebody if you meet them. 912 00:47:54,025 --> 00:47:55,484 You don't just walk up to a 913 00:47:55,485 --> 00:47:57,740 stranger and start arguing with them. 914 00:47:57,741 --> 00:48:00,332 And that's across cultures, too. 915 00:48:00,333 --> 00:48:01,852 It's not just an american thing. 916 00:48:01,853 --> 00:48:05,106 It's many, many people in many places 917 00:48:05,107 --> 00:48:07,820 have had things that are normal ways 918 00:48:07,821 --> 00:48:10,288 that human beings interact with each other. 919 00:48:10,289 --> 00:48:12,992 And so paying more attention to that.. (Duane) I think, 920 00:48:12,993 --> 00:48:16,590 like you're saying, when there is this chemical interaction, 921 00:48:16,591 --> 00:48:18,992 when you're talking to a person and you say 922 00:48:18,993 --> 00:48:22,992 something, you're getting a layer of feedback that you 923 00:48:22,993 --> 00:48:25,876 don't get when you're interacting, like, in the social 924 00:48:25,877 --> 00:48:27,428 media sphere, the same way. 925 00:48:27,429 --> 00:48:29,668 So you say something and you look and you see that 926 00:48:29,669 --> 00:48:33,668 what you said has hurt the other person, and you're human, 927 00:48:33,669 --> 00:48:35,716 and that's not what you really want to do. 928 00:48:35,717 --> 00:48:39,304 And so that has a disarming effect on you in 929 00:48:39,305 --> 00:48:41,592 terms of getting you to cool down a little bit 930 00:48:41,593 --> 00:48:43,208 and think about how to say it maybe a little 931 00:48:43,209 --> 00:48:45,948 bit differently so that they won't be as heard. 932 00:48:45,949 --> 00:48:49,788 But your message is constantly adapting on the 933 00:48:49,789 --> 00:48:53,874 basis of how another person is ultimately reacting. 934 00:48:53,875 --> 00:48:56,140 But the minute you go into the social media 935 00:48:56,141 --> 00:49:00,038 universe, you don't have that same dimension anymore. 936 00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:03,734 You're not seeing a person's eyes, and you're 937 00:49:03,735 --> 00:49:06,422 not seeing their facial expressions, and you don't 938 00:49:06,423 --> 00:49:09,040 understand how they're reacting when you're saying something. 939 00:49:09,041 --> 00:49:12,292 And so it becomes easier for you to 940 00:49:12,293 --> 00:49:16,180 just become insensitive to all that stuff. 941 00:49:16,181 --> 00:49:20,308 And that helps that process of that dialogue kind 942 00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:22,948 of like gravitating and becoming a little bit more 943 00:49:22,949 --> 00:49:26,328 dehumanized a little bit more, maybe degrading all of 944 00:49:26,329 --> 00:49:29,512 that as it feeds that passion that's driving whatever 945 00:49:29,513 --> 00:49:31,490 it is that motivated your comments? 946 00:49:32,550 --> 00:49:36,296 (Lisa) It's why I really think social media platforms need to 947 00:49:36,297 --> 00:49:39,900 enable us all to give our intentions what we post. 948 00:49:39,901 --> 00:49:43,212 It's not currently something that's offered anywhere, but in 949 00:49:43,213 --> 00:49:46,780 my sort of design code for how we should 950 00:49:46,781 --> 00:49:50,358 design social media to improve social cohesion. 951 00:49:50,359 --> 00:49:52,640 This is one of the points, actually, is that 952 00:49:52,641 --> 00:49:55,606 when I'm feeling sad or when I'm feeling lonely 953 00:49:55,607 --> 00:49:59,616 or upset, I should be able to indicate that 954 00:49:59,617 --> 00:50:03,092 as I'm posting that I'm truly curious about this 955 00:50:03,093 --> 00:50:06,340 issue, or I'm coming here with an authentic question. 956 00:50:06,341 --> 00:50:08,356 I'm not angry at you. 957 00:50:08,357 --> 00:50:10,420 And that we should be allowed to sort of state 958 00:50:10,421 --> 00:50:14,952 our intentions of the conversation and communicate what we would 959 00:50:14,953 --> 00:50:19,352 normally communicate on our faces with a smile or with 960 00:50:19,353 --> 00:50:22,456 raised eyebrows, or we have all kinds of ways in 961 00:50:22,457 --> 00:50:26,412 person to signal, I'm not here to attack you. 962 00:50:26,413 --> 00:50:28,490 I really care about you. 963 00:50:28,491 --> 00:50:31,116 Yeah, and we're missing all that on social 964 00:50:31,117 --> 00:50:34,428 media, so we should find other ways to 965 00:50:34,429 --> 00:50:37,270 send that same signal of our intention. 966 00:50:46,750 --> 00:50:50,768 (Duane) So we've been a little bit critical today because 967 00:50:50,769 --> 00:50:53,860 we've been looking at understanding the problem, really. 968 00:50:53,861 --> 00:50:55,876 But where do you think this all goes? 969 00:50:55,877 --> 00:51:00,560 What do you see as the future for social media? 970 00:51:01,170 --> 00:51:02,020 (Lisa) Great question. 971 00:51:02,021 --> 00:51:05,060 I think that there's actually an exciting future, 972 00:51:05,061 --> 00:51:07,448 but we all need to be working together. 973 00:51:07,449 --> 00:51:09,832 So if we just let tech companies go off 974 00:51:09,833 --> 00:51:11,976 on their own, it will continue to just be 975 00:51:11,977 --> 00:51:16,334 for profit and centered on amplifying our divisions. 976 00:51:16,335 --> 00:51:18,732 We need to be involved, and we really 977 00:51:18,733 --> 00:51:20,620 need to be engaged with the tech companies 978 00:51:20,621 --> 00:51:23,036 to express, we want something different. 979 00:51:23,037 --> 00:51:25,420 We want a different product that 980 00:51:25,421 --> 00:51:28,258 serves humanity and serves our societies. 981 00:51:28,259 --> 00:51:29,862 And we need to let our governments 982 00:51:29,863 --> 00:51:31,856 know they need to be involved, too. 983 00:51:31,857 --> 00:51:35,168 There need to be tax credits for companies 984 00:51:35,169 --> 00:51:38,784 that produce social cohesion, help societies hold together, 985 00:51:38,785 --> 00:51:42,404 and there needs to be taxation of companies 986 00:51:42,405 --> 00:51:45,332 that are divisive so that we actually have 987 00:51:45,333 --> 00:51:49,716 then a whole incentive structure, creating new tech 988 00:51:49,717 --> 00:51:53,412 tools that help society make decisions together. 989 00:51:53,413 --> 00:51:56,318 And I've already seen some of these platforms, Remesh 990 00:51:56,319 --> 00:51:58,472 and Polis, I'm writing about them a lot. 991 00:51:58,473 --> 00:52:00,696 They help people make decisions together. 992 00:52:00,697 --> 00:52:03,518 They incentivize where there is common ground. 993 00:52:03,519 --> 00:52:06,168 They help people see each other's point of 994 00:52:06,169 --> 00:52:08,812 view and really listen to each other. 995 00:52:08,813 --> 00:52:11,916 At scale, we could be building the kinds of 996 00:52:11,917 --> 00:52:15,100 design affordances that are in Polis and Remesh into 997 00:52:15,101 --> 00:52:18,380 all of our social media to ensure that every 998 00:52:18,381 --> 00:52:21,260 conversation brings out the best of humanity, so that 999 00:52:21,261 --> 00:52:22,912 we're learning from each other. 1000 00:52:22,913 --> 00:52:25,552 We don't have to have perfect harmony, but we have 1001 00:52:25,553 --> 00:52:28,704 to be able to appreciate the humanity of the other. 1002 00:52:28,705 --> 00:52:31,796 So that's what I'm working for, designing a social 1003 00:52:31,797 --> 00:52:35,540 media that will enable us to humanize each other, 1004 00:52:35,541 --> 00:52:39,316 to continue enjoying all the good things about social 1005 00:52:39,317 --> 00:52:42,692 media, but then adding to it sort of a 1006 00:52:42,693 --> 00:52:46,552 benefit to society, a benefit to holding us together. 1007 00:52:46,553 --> 00:52:48,936 (Duane) Wow, that is such an exciting future. 1008 00:52:48,937 --> 00:52:50,712 Lisa, thank you so much for sharing that. 1009 00:52:50,713 --> 00:52:53,678 And thank you for all the insights that you shared 1010 00:52:53,679 --> 00:52:57,820 in helping educate us on how it is that the 1011 00:52:57,821 --> 00:53:00,812 social media universe is kind of like contributing to this 1012 00:53:00,813 --> 00:53:04,268 polarization issue that we're all suffering from. 1013 00:53:04,269 --> 00:53:05,458 Thanks again, Lisa. 1014 00:53:05,459 --> 00:53:07,036 Thanks for joining us today. 1015 00:53:07,037 --> 00:53:09,100 (Lisa) Thanks so much for your wonderful questions. 1016 00:53:18,430 --> 00:53:22,660 (Duane) Wow, so many interesting insights there. 1017 00:53:22,661 --> 00:53:25,316 First and foremost, I think Lisa did 1018 00:53:25,317 --> 00:53:29,300 an amazing job in demonstrating how social 1019 00:53:29,301 --> 00:53:32,436 media greatly accelerate the polarization issue. 1020 00:53:32,437 --> 00:53:34,888 And she's helped us understand, I think, how this 1021 00:53:34,889 --> 00:53:39,448 is not a natural or an accidental byproduct, but 1022 00:53:39,449 --> 00:53:43,880 it's something that directly results from both commercial and 1023 00:53:43,881 --> 00:53:48,700 malicious efforts to feed and capitalize on our lower 1024 00:53:48,701 --> 00:53:52,050 nature, on our animal or our reptile brain. 1025 00:53:52,051 --> 00:53:54,028 I loved her explanations of the 1026 00:53:54,029 --> 00:53:56,412 neuroscience behind all of this. 1027 00:53:56,413 --> 00:54:00,224 And she leaves us reflecting, I think, on what it 1028 00:54:00,225 --> 00:54:03,744 is we can do individually and in the circles in 1029 00:54:03,745 --> 00:54:08,272 which we move to become more conscious and aware of 1030 00:54:08,273 --> 00:54:13,802 our own social media diets and of our responses, highlighting 1031 00:54:13,803 --> 00:54:17,332 really what the Universal House of Justice calls for as 1032 00:54:17,333 --> 00:54:23,246 the need for an etiquette of expression, something we'll explore 1033 00:54:23,247 --> 00:54:25,730 further in a future episode. 1034 00:54:26,310 --> 00:54:29,966 Now, we continue our journey into depolarization 1035 00:54:29,967 --> 00:54:33,134 in our next episode, where I'll interview 1036 00:54:33,135 --> 00:54:36,978 yet another global authority in this discourse. 1037 00:54:36,979 --> 00:54:39,618 This time, I'll be interviewing Nealin Parker, 1038 00:54:39,619 --> 00:54:42,204 who's the Executive Director of the US 1039 00:54:42,205 --> 00:54:44,898 Office for Search for Common Ground. 1040 00:54:44,899 --> 00:54:46,066 That's one of the world's 1041 00:54:46,067 --> 00:54:50,396 largest nongovernmental peacebuilding organizations with 1042 00:54:50,397 --> 00:54:53,130 offices in some 30 countries. 1043 00:54:53,131 --> 00:54:55,750 Now, Nealin is also part of initiative 1044 00:54:55,751 --> 00:54:59,232 engaged in tackling polarization, an effort that 1045 00:54:59,233 --> 00:55:03,524 has already identified, wait for it, over 1046 00:55:03,525 --> 00:55:09,242 6700 organizations in the United States alone. 1047 00:55:09,243 --> 00:55:10,884 I mean, wow. 1048 00:55:10,885 --> 00:55:14,292 So Neelen will help us get a better sense of 1049 00:55:14,293 --> 00:55:18,808 the kinds of like-minded organizations we might want to 1050 00:55:18,809 --> 00:55:23,030 explore collaborating with as we engage in depolarization. 1051 00:55:23,031 --> 00:55:26,946 So don't miss my interview with Nealin Parker. 1052 00:55:26,947 --> 00:55:31,030 That's next time on Society Builders. 1053 00:55:31,850 --> 00:55:34,828 (Music) Society builders pave the way to a 1054 00:55:34,829 --> 00:55:37,356 better world, to a better day, a 1055 00:55:37,357 --> 00:55:41,190 united approach to building a new society. 1056 00:55:41,770 --> 00:55:43,164 There's a crisis facing 1057 00:55:43,165 --> 00:55:46,982 humanity, people suffer from a lack of unity. 1058 00:55:46,983 --> 00:55:51,230 It's time for a better path to a new society. 1059 00:55:51,970 --> 00:55:58,670 Join the conversation for social transformation. Society Builders. 1060 00:56:02,050 --> 00:56:08,750 Join the conversation for social transformation. Society Builders 1061 00:56:11,990 --> 00:56:15,048 So engage with your local communities and 1062 00:56:15,049 --> 00:56:17,538 explore all the exciting possibilities. 1063 00:56:17,539 --> 00:56:22,252 We can elevate the atmosphere in which we move. 1064 00:56:22,253 --> 00:56:24,850 The paradigm is shifting. 1065 00:56:24,851 --> 00:56:27,282 It's so very uplifting. 1066 00:56:27,283 --> 00:56:32,384 It's a new beat, a new song, a brand new groove. 1067 00:56:32,385 --> 00:56:44,090 Join the conversation for social transformation. Society Builders. Join the conversation for 1068 00:56:45,010 --> 00:56:54,328 social transformation. Society Builders. The Baha'i Faith has a 1069 00:56:54,329 --> 00:56:57,720 lot to say helping people discover a better way 1070 00:56:57,721 --> 00:57:02,968 with discourse and social action framed by unity. Now 1071 00:57:02,969 --> 00:57:05,528 the time has come to lift our game and 1072 00:57:05,529 --> 00:57:08,498 apply the teachings of the Greatest Name and rise 1073 00:57:08,499 --> 00:57:13,388 to meet the glory of our destiny. Join the 1074 00:57:13,389 --> 00:57:25,964 conversation for social transformation. Society Builders. Join the conversation for social 1075 00:57:25,965 --> 00:57:29,140 transformation. Society Builders.